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View Full Version : JP PSO2 SEGA implements SYMPATHY - dynamic music



sugarFO
Aug 21, 2012, 08:23 PM
From http://bumped.org/psublog/phantasy-star-online-2s-dynamic-music-system-sympathy/

It's basically what allows the music to change from different scenarios.

I've read some of the comments and I have to agree with the ones who say that the music lacks emotion and mood because of the constant shifts and the composers arranging pieces of music to these shifts. Yes, in PSO, it felt a little odd when the wandering BGM would still play even when you were fighting monsters, but the tracks were really amazing anyway. (Seabed battle theme is still my favorite VG music, like EVER.) I even listen to PSO music just for fun, hehe.

What are your thoughts on this system? Do you enjoy it? Does it seem to work for you?

blace
Aug 21, 2012, 08:27 PM
It just drones on and on, a bit difficult to notice the shift in between exploring and fighting and feels like it lacks the edge PSO had when creating a tense mood with its sound score.

Mikura
Aug 21, 2012, 08:41 PM
I personally don't like it. There's so many transitions that take place in any given run that it doesn't feel like you're listening to "music" per se, so much as just a bunch of random noise.

The concept is good I believe, it was just poorly executed in PSO2. If it had less transitions, the music would be pretty solid. I've listened to all the BGM without the constant transitions and what's there is fantastic. As it is though, it's just too....busy.

Shadowth117
Aug 21, 2012, 08:41 PM
I definitely notice the difference, but I won't lie; most of the music isn't amazing to me. Bad no, but not what generally feel like listening to for hours. Some of the boss music really isn't bad though (Boss fight BGM's come to mind). If nothing else though, it doesn't sound like I'm listening to a static song. It changes a lot during things like PSE Bursts and battles although its smooth and subtle when it does.

I still like PSO's music better overall, but the music system in this isn't bad.

gravityvx
Aug 21, 2012, 08:43 PM
That ruins, seabed & mines music back in pso really nailed the atmosphere & mood both in and out of battle. Only the city in pso2 does it right.

HFlowen
Aug 21, 2012, 08:43 PM
PSO1s music worked fine, you had calm ambient music and your battle music and that's all you needed.

PSU was UNTZUNTZUNTZ all day, so fuck that.

PSO2 is... i dunno. sometimes I feel like the exciting music drags on way too long after I've killed everything.

TetsuyaHikari
Aug 21, 2012, 08:44 PM
Personally, I'm fine with it. I think it's an interesting concept and I really like it when the music changes based on the situation. For example, it gets faster and more upbeat once a PSE Burst activates.

That's pretty cool to me. Granted, they just add drums and such on top of the original BGM already playing, but still, lol. It gets me hyped all the same (same goes for the Duel transition).

Jakosifer
Aug 21, 2012, 08:45 PM
I listen to my own music usually. The reason this worked in PSO was because it was much slower paced, and everyone had the same movement speed, along with there sometimes being quite a bit of space between the rooms where you do battle and the corridors/spaces where not much is going on.

NoiseHERO
Aug 21, 2012, 08:48 PM
I think they made the music TOOOOO atmospheric...

I don't feel anything from it, it doesn't help that it meshes together so damn much from like 8 different music changing situations.

Even if there's a part of the song that sounds nice, you won't notice it go over your head after hearing these random atmospheric sounds for like 10 minutes and not getting anything out of hearing them.

It's nice to set the mood... but... they went too far... At this rate I'm finding most of PSU's music more memorable...

Mikura
Aug 21, 2012, 08:53 PM
I wanna point out too, and maybe this is just me, but it seems to me like a lot of music composers that may have struck gold with a particular soundtrack years ago can never duplicate it again years later. And when they try, it just doesn't sound quite right.

Like when you listen to the music, it may have that PSO vibe, but it's like something's missing that you can't quite put your finger on. I'm talking about the bgm as it is without all the jumpy transitions by the way. It's good, but it doesn't quite hit the sweet spot.

I don't know, could just be me being biased because the original PSO soundtrack has a lot of nostalgia attached to it for me.

Shadowth117
Aug 21, 2012, 08:55 PM
I think they made the music TOOOOO atmospheric...


Yeah, for the most part I think that's spot on. PSU had that same issue with a lot of its music, among other things (OMG CHEAP INSTRUMENTS!).

Flame
Aug 21, 2012, 08:56 PM
the problem with the music isn't that there are changes based on the situations, it's that the compositions themselves aren't memorable or well executed.

sugarFO
Aug 21, 2012, 09:03 PM
I wanna point out too, and maybe this is just me, but it seems to me like a lot of music composers that may have struck gold with a particular soundtrack years ago can never duplicate it again years later. And when they try, it just doesn't sound quite right.

Like when you listen to the music, it may have that PSO vibe, but it's like something's missing that you can't quite put your finger on. I'm talking about the bgm as it is without all the jumpy transitions by the way. It's good, but it doesn't quite hit the sweet spot.

I don't know, could just be me being biased because the original PSO soundtrack has a lot of nostalgia attached to it for me.

That could be the case. Although Nobuo Uematsuo had crazy amounts of talent to create the soundtracks that he did. Maybe this Sympathy program is simply stifling these composers? I know the PSO composers also did really good tracks for games like Sonic as well.

ShadowDragon28
Aug 21, 2012, 09:03 PM
Personally, I'm fine with it. I think it's an interesting concept and I really like it when the music changes based on the situation. For example, it gets faster and more upbeat once a PSE Burst activates.

That's pretty cool to me. Granted, they just add drums and such on top of the original BGM already playing, but still, lol. It gets me hyped all the same (same goes for the Duel transition).

Agreed. I think the dynamic music is great, full of mood and full of emotion IMO. The music in desert and in tundra being my favorites so far.

gravityvx
Aug 21, 2012, 09:04 PM
Needs more of this. Less scrambled tracks with no direction.

[SPOILER-BOX]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8remh8uA4MM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadvmKOfU3U&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44e-Vy_Wk08&playnext=1&list=PL32399A3DD43C4F4F&feature=results_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeWwmdE_Mwg&playnext=1&list=PL32399A3DD43C4F4F&feature=results_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsHLlwfkzzA&feature=relmfu[/SPOILER-BOX]

Flame
Aug 21, 2012, 09:17 PM
Needs more of this. Less scrambled tracks with no direction.

[SPOILER-BOX]PSO Ruins theme - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8remh8uA4MM)
PSO mines theme - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadvmKOfU3U&feature=relmfu)
Phantasy Star Online: Blue Burst Soundtrack - Seabed Part 1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44e-Vy_Wk08&playnext=1&list=PL32399A3DD43C4F4F&feature=results_video)
Phantasy Star Online: Blue Burst Soundtrack - Seabed Part 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeWwmdE_Mwg&playnext=1&list=PL32399A3DD43C4F4F&feature=results_video)
PSO Perfect DarkFalz Theme - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsHLlwfkzzA&feature=relmfu)[/SPOILER-BOX]


same thing goes for the level design miright

Shadowth117
Aug 21, 2012, 09:37 PM
same thing goes for the level design miright

Most of the areas are nice enough. PSO/PSU based layouts were pretty random in the first place. They do need more set layout missions though AKA i can has moar Taimu Ataku? It really does break up the monotony overall, but in some cases the randomness allows for some pretty terrible layouts.

Cypher_9
Aug 21, 2012, 09:40 PM
Well... I can say that the themes are okay for the situations... but as those point out it does end a bit early in some instances.

Personally, when fighting Vol Dragon... I like the transition when you knock the bulb off his tail... then it becomes a rush to get on his back and get that horn off since that is what you would be doing.

For me I am not opposed of the idea since music to me is like looking at a drawing... if I like it... I like it; sometimes in the desert though... there is a part of the theme I do like... but, sadden when it ends early when the music score knows the mobs are not around.. ; ;

Ezodagrom
Aug 21, 2012, 09:51 PM
I like both the transition system and the music in the game, even if the transition system can be a bit buggy sometimes, for example, music sometimes doesn't transition from calm to battle even though I'm fighting a group of enemies, or music suddenly plays at an higher pitch (not sure if this is intentional, but it doesn't seem so).

Mikura
Aug 21, 2012, 09:56 PM
That could be the case. Although Nobuo Uematsuo had crazy amounts of talent to create the soundtracks that he did. Maybe this Sympathy program is simply stifling these composers? I know the PSO composers also did really good tracks for games like Sonic as well.

I tend to agree with this point the most. I believe the potential was certainly there for some outstanding music, but since they had to design the music around Sympathy so everything could flow properly, I think it became more of a hindrance than a tool that would benefit them creatively.

Aeris
Aug 21, 2012, 10:02 PM
I like both the transition system and the music in the game, even if the transition system can be a bit buggy sometimes, for example, music sometimes doesn't transition from calm to battle even though I'm fighting a group of enemies, or music suddenly plays at an higher pitch (not sure if this is intentional, but it doesn't seem so).

Kinna noticed that on forest music, it plays some alternate version of the normal one, the higher pitch plays when boosted mobs or boss is around.

Alenoir
Aug 21, 2012, 10:04 PM
The whole "I don't like the music/I like the music" points aside... That's an interesting way SEGA's doing the music. o_o

A lot more interesting than other MMOs where they just fade in/out the field BGM with battle BGM or something like that.

JeyKama
Aug 21, 2012, 10:05 PM
I remember playing Kingdom Hearts for the first time and being super stoked at how the normal music and battle music were concurrent and faded out one for the other when in or out of combat. (probably not the first usage of the system, but it was for me)

PSO's engine is a really interesting experiment to further this approach and I eagerly await advancements to the system, such as gradiated transitions between safe and combat so that rapid transitions back and forth aren't as jarring. Plus even with the semi-random nature of the music, they've got sound awesome stuff in there. If it's "too atmospheric", maybe you just need to turn the volume up :<

(and btw, not really impressed by the PSO music samples posted. I could totally see (well, hear) them being implemented in the Sympathy engine though)

kkow
Aug 21, 2012, 10:06 PM
boss fight themes are fine, but regular areas they are terrible. im obviously going to be in combat 90% of the time, so in the end their precious theme mixer turns everything into a bipolar pile of crap.

Aka
Aug 21, 2012, 10:09 PM
The whole system is a brilliant idea, but so far, none of the music it's pieced together has made any lasting impression on me. The only exception is the Quartz boss fight where I think it works rather well.

NoiseHERO
Aug 21, 2012, 10:09 PM
The whole "I don't like the music/I like the music" points aside... That's an interesting way SEGA's doing the music. o_o

A lot more interesting than other MMOs where they just fade in/out the field BGM with battle BGM or something like that.

The idea itself is interesting...

But I'm not liking the end result...

Hell, it could just be the music in general, not only the way it's chopped up and meshed together.

Ezodagrom
Aug 21, 2012, 10:11 PM
Kinna noticed that on forest music, it plays some alternate version of the normal one, the higher pitch plays when boosted mobs or boss is around.
Have a video that kinda shows the higher pitched music in the Open Beta, it starts around 15:00~15:05, and at around 16:15~16:20 it returns to normal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8nh7LZnyDE&t=14m50s

Angelo
Aug 21, 2012, 10:42 PM
As for field music, Forest, Tundra, and Continent are all fantastic, the rest are pretty forgettable.

The boss music is great.

This system in general is awesome. Most of the field and battle music in the original PSO was pretty forgettable too, so I'm not sure if this is just a nostalgia thing... but the boss music from those games were much, much better than PSO2's.

Zyrusticae
Aug 21, 2012, 11:10 PM
I LOVE THIS SYSTEM. SO COOL.

However, I must agree that the end result oftentimes isn't memorable enough to be worth the trouble. They should look into working in more coherent sections, as the current rate of shuffling makes the music seem rather chaotic. There are some sections in, say, the Mines BGM that are really beautiful, but don't seem to get played often enough or long enough, for example.

Boss themes are an obvious exception to this. LOVE the Quartz Dragon theme, one of my favorites in the entire series.

Sayara
Aug 21, 2012, 11:18 PM
As for field music, Forest, Tundra, and Continent are all fantastic, the rest are pretty forgettable.

The boss music is great.

This system in general is awesome. Most of the field and battle music in the original PSO was pretty forgettable too, so I'm not sure if this is just a nostalgia thing... but the boss music from those games were much, much better than PSO2's.

The anxiety of the ruins says otherwise. Ugh god i felt so uneased when im in a dark room surrounded by Del-Ds and Merlans D:

Zyrusticae
Aug 21, 2012, 11:19 PM
We still don't have the equivalent of ruins for PSO2. I'm really hoping they pull off something spectacular there.

Flame
Aug 21, 2012, 11:25 PM
Most of the field and battle music in the original PSO was pretty forgettable too, so I'm not sure if this is just a nostalgia thing... but the boss music from those games were much, much better than PSO2's.

If it was forgettable. . .wouldn't we have forgotten it? The problem with PSO2's music is that you can't even hum a single tune from memory. Whereas the original mines 1 theme will forever be stuck in my head.

Cla
Aug 21, 2012, 11:40 PM
Why is this being paraded like it's something new or innovative? This exact idea has been done as early as Metal Gear Solid 1. And actually, the MGS series has done it way smoother. (you can probably notice this most in MGS2) And by "smoother", I mean that the mood transitions happen more quickly and naturally without extended periods of time where unfitting music is continuing to play waiting to finish its loop before the music shifts over to the more appropriate variant. This could've been easily accomplished in PSO2 as well if they programmed it better. The music needs to have more points where it's allowed to shift to a different variant, and the game needs to better recognize when to shift variants. (again, all this was done with no problem as early as MGS1. When was that, like 1998 or something?)

Zyrusticae
Aug 21, 2012, 11:48 PM
MGS1 used a system similar to PSO1 where it used stock single tracks and transitioned between them.

PSO2 has a LOT more variation in its tracks since every single part can be swapped out on the fly. Naturally, this contributes to the "chaotic" feeling that a number of players are complaining about.

Mystil
Aug 21, 2012, 11:50 PM
As for field music, Forest, Tundra, and Continent are all fantastic, the rest are pretty forgettable.

The boss music is great.

This system in general is awesome. Most of the field and battle music in the original PSO was pretty forgettable too, so I'm not sure if this is just a nostalgia thing... but the boss music from those games were much, much better than PSO2's.


Olga Flow's first form battle music, and Falz final form music still plays in my head. I still remember Forest, Mines, Ruins and the Jungle very vividly, and I listen to the jungle theme very often(Lush Load - possible mistranslation).

And I personally feel the banthers' boss theme is the best PSO2 got going right now as far as music. Field themes, I love the desert.

TetsuyaHikari
Aug 22, 2012, 12:05 AM
Why is this being paraded like it's something new or innovative? This exact idea has been done as early as Metal Gear Solid 1. And actually, the MGS series has done it way smoother. (you can probably notice this most in MGS2) And by "smoother", I mean that the mood transitions happen more quickly and naturally without extended periods of time where unfitting music is continuing to play waiting to finish its loop before the music shifts over to the more appropriate variant. This could've been easily accomplished in PSO2 as well if they programmed it better. The music needs to have more points where it's allowed to shift to a different variant, and the game needs to better recognize when to shift variants. (again, all this was done with no problem as early as MGS1. When was that, like 1998 or something?)

omg block of text D:

Anyway, yes... that is a method of this concept. However, the transition is more fluid and there's actually a slight break before the shift in BGM between the original and RED ALERT or whatever (talking about as far back as the original Metal Gear on NES). Whereas, in PSO2, the original BGM continues to play while the extra beats and/or music plays over it in layers.

I don't think it's so much people are parading that this is new, but it is new to this franchise (unless Zero had something like this... I didn't play that one X3). Some people are okay with it, some think it just sounds like a bunch of random noises and is too garbled to even be good after a certain point.

Zyrusticae
Aug 22, 2012, 12:20 AM
As far as games are concerned, this level of granularity is new. I don't know of any games with dynamic music systems that have multiple layers that can be switched in-and-out at random. Key words here: multiple layers. Not only that, but smaller parts of the music can be switched out, skipped, and swapped on the fly.

You can't even really compare MGS1's system to this, and if you are, you're doing it entirely out of ignorance. They're not comparable.

Lumpen Thingy
Aug 22, 2012, 12:27 AM
the music in the forest, city and mines seem really awesome to me but everything else is sort of ok I guess.

Zyrusticae
Aug 22, 2012, 12:30 AM
I encourage anyone who hasn't to listen to the Mines 2 music outside of the game. There's some very interesting stuff going on in there...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Y5W_WEHys

ShadowDragon28
Aug 22, 2012, 12:38 AM
Damn I want a PSO 2 Soundtrack CD now. RIGHT NOW. Just to listen to when I'm riding in a car on loooong trips. Fuck, I havnt unlocked Mining Tunnels yet, but that track was fucking awesome Zyrusticae.

I <3 "atmospheric" and unique sounding electronica, like the music from Dweller At The Threshold (whom disbanded unfortunately).

Finalzone
Aug 22, 2012, 01:07 AM
For me, SYMPATHY is a natural evolution of PSO music concepts. Similar ideas were applied on Nights Into The Dreams and Skies of Arcadia. I like the implementation more because it feels like the music speaks to the players which disrupts what many people are used too. Similar method will be used on other games especially MMO.

TetsuyaHikari
Aug 22, 2012, 01:11 AM
As far as games are concerned, this level of granularity is new. I don't know of any games with dynamic music systems that have multiple layers that can be switched in-and-out at random. Key words here: multiple layers. Not only that, but smaller parts of the music can be switched out, skipped, and swapped on the fly.

You can't even really compare MGS1's system to this, and if you are, you're doing it entirely out of ignorance. They're not comparable.

Oh, look! Someone understood what I was talking about when I mentioned layers. Well, I'm glad someone did, lol. Being an amateur musician myself, I can say that layers themselves seem rather simple on the surface, but are quite complex.

This could be because I'm not really too familiar with using layers yet, but I know Eurobeat uses this a lot and that seems like a bitch to compose, lol. It's so simple to compose too, but dem layers! DEM LAYERRRRRRRRRS!!

Anyway, yeah. While the concept may be similar, to say it is like MGS1 (or MG anything really) is a bit of an overstatement. One basically stops the BGM before transitioning while the other transitions mid-song and just layers BGM 2 on top of BGM 1, then once BGM 3 starts, it goes on top of BGM 2 (although as I said before... one of these mainly just consist of beats (see: PSE Burst) ).

Yunfa
Aug 22, 2012, 01:13 AM
People don't realize the nostalgic music from PSO a decade ago now have rooted bias when hearing music from the continued franchise that they unconsciously compare it to what PSO had, thus the new music does not sit well, hence it is not good.

Either way, i doubt the music complainers will stop playing, and if they do, so bit it; less negative complainers in the game to spread their contagious hate w/ their constant whining.

Life is to be enjoyed, those who are not enjoying the game at their fullest should find ways to do so.

TetsuyaHikari
Aug 22, 2012, 01:15 AM
People don't realize the nostalgic music from PSO a decade ago now have rooted bias when hearing music from the continued franchise that they unconsciously compare it to what PSO had, thus the new music does not sit well, hence it is not good.

Either way, i doubt the music complainers will stop playing, and if they do, so bit it; less negative complainers in the game to spread their contagious hate w/ their constant whining.

Life is to be enjoyed, those who are not enjoying the game at their fullest should find ways to do so.

Pretty much. I have a couple of friends that just have their own music playing when they run the game. There's a simple solution right there :P

Dammy
Aug 22, 2012, 01:19 AM
for me music in pso2 is too fast paced
absolutely hate this "drum n bass" fest, would like something more calm and ambient like pso1 mines and ruins theme.
system is good, music is not

ShadowDragon28
Aug 22, 2012, 01:20 AM
heck as much as I LOVE the music in each area, I will sometimes throw on one of my Rammstein CD's or White Zombie "Astro Creep 2000" to play while I do a quest.

Tsacar
Aug 22, 2012, 01:40 AM
The variety put forward by this system continually surprises and delights me. It can be a little clumsy in places, but we're dealing with something very new - a kind of polymorphic music.

You're looking at the future, whether you know or it not. Songs will be produced that do this randomly on future music playback platforms. They won't replace anything, but it will be a niche market at first, and an art form of its own - in due time.

gravityvx
Aug 22, 2012, 01:52 AM
People don't realize the nostalgic music from PSO a decade ago now have rooted bias when hearing music from the continued franchise that they unconsciously compare it to what PSO had, thus the new music does not sit well, hence it is not good.

Either way, i doubt the music complainers will stop playing, and if they do, so bit it; less negative complainers in the game to spread their contagious hate w/ their constant whining.

Life is to be enjoyed, those who are not enjoying the game at their fullest should find ways to do so.

That doesn't really make any sense, at all. The music can't just be, you know, not that great to some? It has to be nostalgia making most of the tracks sound bad? The music by itself is decent, it's the execution from calm to battle and complete randomness afterwards 90% of the time that throws them off. And if I'm not mistaken the point of the thread was to give your thoughts on current dynamic music, so I don't see anyone whining, they are you know, giving their thoughts on the current music.

Flame
Aug 22, 2012, 02:22 AM
they unconsciously compare it to what PSO had, thus the new music does not sit well, hence it is not good.


Why can't we just consciously compare the music? That would make a whole lot more sense. And I certainly love the notion that because I enjoyed the first entry, I'm somehow unfit to judge the sequel. For your information I'm totally open to new ideas and change, but I'm also not going to ignore when something is inferior. Don't be satisfied with mediocrity!

Finalzone
Aug 22, 2012, 03:17 AM
for me music in pso2 is too fast paced
absolutely hate this "drum n bass" fest, would like something more calm and ambient like pso1 mines and ruins theme.
system is good, music is not
I have to disagree on those points: I suggest to idle on any part of planets without a single enemy in sight where you get ambient music. The reason PSO2 seems too fast paced is due to mob presences on the radar. The musics will dramatically too when you are overwhelmed by enemies or are in critical condition.

moorebounce
Aug 22, 2012, 03:30 AM
Since the series going online I liked all the music except for some of episode II and some of PSU's. I only pay attention to PSO2s for a few times just to hear what its like. So far I haven't heard anything I haven't liked yet.

Lance813
Aug 22, 2012, 05:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_kUlf-A870

How hasn't anyone posted this song yet?

Galerianx
Aug 22, 2012, 06:18 AM
give us the software and all the sound files and let people make there own songs for pso2

Alenoir
Aug 22, 2012, 10:17 AM
give us the software and all the sound files and let people make there own songs for pso2
You know, that totally just reminded me of how a vocaloid works.</offtopic>

KatsujinkenKik
Aug 22, 2012, 12:20 PM
Ah! I finally understand why the pinch music would always start playing once I was about halfway in the fight with the snow banshee and banther even though i had full health. I was using some cheap armor and would always be left with less than 10% health if i got hit. I guess that factored into the music system.

"The enemy strength, character’s HP, and party member HP influences the Pinch score."

Garnet_Moon
Aug 22, 2012, 01:01 PM
...this game has a soundtrack? I've been listening to 50 hours of Nimu Nimu Nimu vs Nyan Cat on youtube, but they recently terminated that account. I'll just stick with the 8 minute version that is still up.

TetsuyaHikari
Aug 22, 2012, 01:29 PM
Soundtrack won't be up until late September at some point when they release the OST for PSP2i. They're supposed to have quite a few tracks from PSO2 on there, but I don't know how far it covers. I'd hope it at least covers all the way up to floating continent/island though.

Powder Keg
Aug 22, 2012, 03:26 PM
Compared to other games, the music in this series is just not good.

ShadowDragon28
Aug 22, 2012, 04:11 PM
*sigh*
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4104/5166465451_ded900eaf8_z.jpg

Ezodagrom
Aug 22, 2012, 04:47 PM
Soundtrack won't be up until late September at some point when they release the OST for PSP2i. They're supposed to have quite a few tracks from PSO2 on there, but I don't know how far it covers. I'd hope it at least covers all the way up to floating continent/island though.
The only track they'll have from PSO2 in the PSPo2i soundtrack is the short version of the opening theme:
http://bumped.org/psublog/phantasy-star-portable-2-infinity-original-soundtrack/

lostinseganet
Aug 22, 2012, 08:02 PM
Its like a electronic DJ only you do not hear the scratching noise.