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View Full Version : JP PSO2 PAX Prime 2012: Hands-on with Phantasy Star Online 2



jooozek
Sep 1, 2012, 05:05 PM
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/09/01/pax-prime-2012-hands-on-with-phantasy-star-online-2/
Positive reception it seems 8-)

Lostbob117
Sep 1, 2012, 05:12 PM
This image is awesome.
http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joystiq.com/media/2012/09/dragon.jpg

pikachief
Sep 1, 2012, 05:27 PM
I think if more video game sites give it positive previews and reviews the US version might actually have a good sized population going on :)

at least I would hope so! It would be nice to see the US version doing great! (even if JP will probably have at least lvl 70, 9-10 missions, very hard, 8 story missions, Falz, 6 classes, subclasses, and a ton more weapons and clothes)

I'm sure they'll do fine but I want them to flourish to show SEGA that there still is a good fanbase waiting for them to release good games to the public and we're still worth the effort!

Vintasticvin
Sep 1, 2012, 06:05 PM
Im happy to see our version being well spoken unlike the reception its been getting in this forums and for sure we will get everything up to killing falz after that is said and done new weapons and armor and all the things the people who rage and have egos bigger than their genitals bitch and whine about so feel free to sneak on back to jp for your precious cont


Have fun spending weeks and months trying to get your game working again after every update xD

Chacron
Sep 1, 2012, 06:15 PM
Im happy to see our version being well spoken unlike the reception its been getting in this forums and for sure we will get everything up to killing falz after that is said and done new weapons and armor and all the things the people who rage and have egos bigger than their genitals bitch and whine about so feel free to sneak on back to jp for your precious cont


Have fun spending weeks and months trying to get your game working again after every update xD

What? I understood only the first line of your post...

No idea what you're talking about for the rest of it.

Angelo
Sep 1, 2012, 06:24 PM
What? I understood only the first line of your post...

No idea what you're talking about for the rest of it.

Let me take a whack at this...

"I'm happy to see the western version being spoken of in high regard as opposed to the way it's usually spoken of here at PSO-World.

I'm sure that by the time it's released overseas there will be content all the way up to fighting Dark Falz. After that, I'm sure we'll still get an influx of new content like weapons and units.

As for all the egotistical whiners here at PSO-World and other gaming communities, feel free to break the ToS and continue to play on the Japanese servers just so that you can have content before the rest of us who will play the localized version, and good luck having to deal with the frustrations of updating your mods (English patch) every time they patch the game."

Vintasticvin
Sep 1, 2012, 06:25 PM
What? I understood only the first line of your post...

No idea what you're talking about for the rest of it.

Some people are saying we will not have the dark falz fight but im confident we will cause its not its not an onluine phantasy star game and I was kinda attacking the ragers and the team jp players speaking bad about western.

Lostbob117
Sep 1, 2012, 06:28 PM
Let me take a whack at this...

"I'm happy to see the western version being spoken of in high regard as opposed to the way it's usually spoken of here at PSO-World.

I'm sure that by the time it's released overseas there will be content all the way up to fighting Dark Falz. After that, I'm sure we'll still get an influx of new content like weapons and units.

As for all the egotistical whiners here at PSO-World and other gaming communities, feel free to break the ToS and continue to play on the Japanese servers just so that you can have content before the rest of us who will play the localized version, and good luck having to deal with the frustrations of updating your mods (English patch) every time they patch the game."

Nice translating.

Sizustar
Sep 1, 2012, 06:29 PM
As for all egotistical whiners here at PSO-World and other gaming communities, feel free to break the ToS and continue to play on the Japanese servers just so that you can have content before the rest of us who will play the localized version, and good luck having to deal with the frustrations of updating your mods (English patch) every time they patch the game."

Sakai already addressed the TOS change, and explained he welcome foreign players, as was the majority of Japanese player who responded to his blog.
And the TOS change is to address RMT and malicious user, not the normal day to day player, so bringing that up is moot.

I've never understood the don't complain stance.
Sega wants to make the game better, which is why they just did a 1st player survey, so players can let Sega know of their grievance, and Sega can make a better game.

And it's not just English/foreign player that feels the game can't be better.

Here's a game review by a Japanese player.
[SPOILER-BOX]http://www.pso2-uploader.info/uploda/src/up16609.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Vintasticvin
Sep 1, 2012, 06:35 PM
Let me take a whack at this...

"I'm happy to see the western version being spoken of in high regard as opposed to the way it's usually spoken of here at PSO-World.

I'm sure that by the time it's released overseas there will be content all the way up to fighting Dark Falz. After that, I'm sure we'll still get an influx of new content like weapons and units.

As for all the egotistical whiners here at PSO-World and other gaming communities, feel free to break the ToS and continue to play on the Japanese servers just so that you can have content before the rest of us who will play the localized version, and good luck having to deal with the frustrations of updating your mods (English patch) every time they patch the game."

Pretty much what I meant Angelo thanks a bunch for making my thought understandable and less vulgar sounding.

Chacron
Sep 1, 2012, 06:55 PM
Let me take a whack at this...

"I'm happy to see the western version being spoken of in high regard as opposed to the way it's usually spoken of here at PSO-World.

I'm sure that by the time it's released overseas there will be content all the way up to fighting Dark Falz. After that, I'm sure we'll still get an influx of new content like weapons and units.

As for all the egotistical whiners here at PSO-World and other gaming communities, feel free to break the ToS and continue to play on the Japanese servers just so that you can have content before the rest of us who will play the localized version, and good luck having to deal with the frustrations of updating your mods (English patch) every time they patch the game."

Thank you for this translation. I want the NA/EU version to do well, I really do. I just don't have all that much confidence in SoA. I expected it to do fairly well at PAX because the game is good, the only thing changing would be in being in different languages. Just need SoA to maintain the game better then they have in the past and things will be fine.

Concerning the English patch, you can just re-install it after a new content patch and it works fine. That takes all of 5 mins at most.

ShadowDragon28
Sep 1, 2012, 06:56 PM
Great little positive first impression article.
I wish every PSO-World member playing PSO2 would have this outlook/attitude:

"I'll be honest: I'm a man of simple pleasures, and as long as I get to stab the blazes out of something, I'm pretty content."

*sigh*

Karazykid
Sep 1, 2012, 07:06 PM
I just hope they keep the NA version at least kinda up to date with the JP version. Nothing kills a game faster than knowing about all the neat weapons and maps that you'll probably never get to use.

ScottyMango
Sep 1, 2012, 07:14 PM
As for all the egotistical whiners here at PSO-World and other gaming communities, feel free to break the ToS and continue to play on the Japanese servers just so that you can have content before the rest of us who will play the localized version, and good luck having to deal with the frustrations of updating your mods (English patch) every time they patch the game."

So basically.. he called us egotistical whiners, while whining in an egotistical fashion?

And man, it suuure is difficult to drag a file into a folder >_> so frusterating.

Takatsuki
Sep 1, 2012, 07:36 PM
Anyone else find it kind of funny that they put people who have never played the game before against Vol? He's one of the harder bosses in the game.

Gardios
Sep 1, 2012, 07:43 PM
Since this is a demo, they were most likely preparing your characters/enemies in a way so you can easily beat the demo.

Good to hear that it has been well received. I'll be playing on iPSO2 casually and I'll be happy if it's successful overseas.

blace
Sep 1, 2012, 07:59 PM
The patch isn't needed, you make it sound like it's a necessity to even get started.

It may have come off bit harsh, and I don't know if you intended that, but it can discourage some people from trying to break the language barrier.

Besides, there's already enough rage fuel to go around, no need to get it blazing again.

luca_maygrinn
Sep 1, 2012, 08:46 PM
I don't care if the update on NA/EU servers take long. I just don't want them doing away with content that's released from the JP servers just because they're afraid it'll "hurt their local sensibilities".

If they (SoA) can assure me that they won't gut it they way they did the other Phantasy Star titles when it comes over to their side, then I'd be happy to support them.

I'm not going to support something diminished if I still have a choice in the matter.

It's going to be a wait-and-see kind of thing.

blace
Sep 1, 2012, 08:53 PM
I don't care if the update on NA/EU servers take long. I just don't want them doing away with content that's released from the JP servers just because they're afraid it'll "hurt their local sensibilities".

If they (SoA) can assure me that they won't gut it they way they did the other Phantasy Star titles when it comes over to their side, then I'd be happy to support them.

I'm not going to support something diminished if I still have a choice in the matter.

It's going to be a wait-and-see kind of thing.
Then you may not like the most likely skimping of some collaboration material, like Hatsune Miku.

Otherwise, general content should be transferred over just fine.

Mike
Sep 1, 2012, 09:12 PM
Looks like the PAX demo was an English version of the PSO2 demo from last year's TGS.

moorebounce
Sep 1, 2012, 11:25 PM
I just hope they keep the NA version at least kinda up to date with the JP version. Nothing kills a game faster than knowing about all the neat weapons and maps that you'll probably never get to use.

I'm sure the NA/EU version will have the same content rollout as the Japanese unless we're sharing the same server.

I'll be definitely switching to the NA/EU server because the mark up to get AC outside of Japan is way too much.

Arika
Sep 1, 2012, 11:55 PM
About NA/EU server.

Well, in PSU server were populated at first month too, but population drop fast because casual get bored out before new content arrive. And then population still keep dropping instantly, due to delay in update, finally server end when population remain about 100-200 which is the last group of hardcore fan who try to support til end.

Since this all review is only first 30 min game play only, we don't know what will happen next when the server is actually release and people jump in. It may be populated at first, and have good review at start (before first group get bored) but that really tell nothing about future.

Knowing Sega, I predict around 80% chance history may repeat itself.
And well, most of the last hardcore group who stay til end of PSU are already in JP server right now too.

DAMASCUS
Sep 2, 2012, 01:04 AM
I don't mind being a couple months behind on the updates it just means we have something to look forward to instead of just complaining that we're bored as if no other game exists.

What I AM worried about with the US PSO2 is the glut of free-loaders that can just jump onto the game and be obnoxious without consequences. A diverse population means there will be a few jerks and spammers but this could harken back to the PSO days when every 5-year old and his brother could pop in to make mischief.

Chik'Tikka
Sep 2, 2012, 01:13 AM
i like how after reading the review that he only got to kill Vol Dragon and never had a chance to see what the non-combat features he has will have, as soon as i get to the comments below all i see is talk of people already playing JP PSO2 like a bunch of no-lifers, links to the English patch, and Xbox/PS3 port demands+^_^+ if i had an account for joystick I'd post something really sarcastic+^_^+

Flame
Sep 2, 2012, 02:59 AM
playing JP PSO2 like a bunch of no-lifers

what do you mean by this exactly?

Chik'Tikka
Sep 2, 2012, 03:14 AM
what do you mean by this exactly?

that I've probably played too much+^_^+
(also, awesome name Flame, makes me wonder if your trying to feed my inner troll+^_^+)

EDIT!! found it, this is my 1000 post

+^_^+
http://img.xcitefun.net/users/2010/03/161012,xcitefun-congratulations-7.jpg

Agitated_AT
Sep 2, 2012, 03:34 AM
This game only needs to be allround more balanced and challenging to cater for the west players as well. Frankly I imagine most west players will end up finding this game a joke.

The above can only be reached with fundemental changes however. Challenge needs to literally take place instead of being a choice as it is right now. I mean the bosses are like the only thing the game really forces you to kill.

Thank god for the Survey and the critisism

Really, challenge is the only major problem of this game

Ezodagrom
Sep 2, 2012, 07:47 AM
I don't mind being a couple months behind on the updates it just means we have something to look forward to instead of just complaining that we're bored as if no other game exists.

What I AM worried about with the US PSO2 is the glut of free-loaders that can just jump onto the game and be obnoxious without consequences. A diverse population means there will be a few jerks and spammers but this could harken back to the PSO days when every 5-year old and his brother could pop in to make mischief.
If the updates would be only 2 months behind, I don't think this many people would be worried about how SOA will handle PSO2.

Look at PSU, it started only with a 2 month gap, and in my opinion that was fine, until the gap started getting bigger and bigger, the update gap between EN and JP reached over 1 year and half.

Angelo
Sep 2, 2012, 07:59 AM
what do you mean by this exactly?

Exactly what it means?

I'm not going to try and play cool here; I downloaded a niche game in a language I don't completely understand, modded it, hit cap, and talk about it on a message board dedicated to this one game.

That's sort of no-lifer nerd shit.

Flame
Sep 2, 2012, 12:00 PM
Exactly what it means?

I'm not going to try and play cool here; I downloaded a niche game in a language I don't completely understand, modded it, hit cap, and talk about it on a message board dedicated to this one game.

That's sort of no-lifer nerd shit.

I dunno, you can do all those things while still having a totally normal/active social life. And hey, at least you didnt pay 120$ to import it.

Alisha
Sep 2, 2012, 12:22 PM
to me the pc only thing is a barrier for entry. so im hoping for vita/ps3 cross play.

jooozek
Sep 2, 2012, 12:33 PM
There won't be any other than Vita console ports and I'm afraid there won't be proper crossplay PC <-> Vita either.

Cyrusnagisa
Sep 2, 2012, 12:33 PM
They left Miku costume along with a few other things in PSP2 for PSP, so I do not see why they could not leave her in this......

Drifting Fable
Sep 2, 2012, 05:40 PM
Hmm well at least Sega doesn't appear to be butchering what little characters they have with cheap dubbed VAs.

I wonder how the update schedule will change now that they are free of the xbox leash. I won't be expecting much, but it can be as bad as PSU's update cycle, right?

Macman
Sep 2, 2012, 05:41 PM
I wonder how the update schedule will change now that they are free of the xbox leash. I won't be expecting much, but it can be as bad as PSU's update cycle, right?
I dunno man... you saw PSOBB, right?

kkow
Sep 2, 2012, 06:05 PM
there won't be proper crossplay PC <-> Vita either.

any source on this? any proper info is scarce on the details and months old

Randomness
Sep 2, 2012, 06:25 PM
Anyone else find it kind of funny that they put people who have never played the game before against Vol? He's one of the harder bosses in the game.

Not if you have four forces spamming barta.

gigawuts
Sep 2, 2012, 06:29 PM
Not to mention if you're in a demo version made specifically for a gameshow, where it's not at all unusual for players to be literally unable to die.

KEV1N
Sep 2, 2012, 06:32 PM
They probably had 100 scape dolls.

Flame
Sep 2, 2012, 06:45 PM
gamesradar posted some footage of the demo build

http://www.gamesradar.com/phantasy-star-online-2-gameplay-demo-pax-2012-brings-your-phantasy-online/

not gonna lie, it's great to see the game in english :) and if I were an outsider I'd say the game looks like great fun.

DS23
Sep 2, 2012, 07:25 PM
Yeah it's definitely nice to have all the text in a language I actually understand. Hope they keep the western servers fairly close to what's on offer in the JP version.

EvilMag
Sep 2, 2012, 08:09 PM
gamesradar posted some footage of the demo build

http://www.gamesradar.com/phantasy-star-online-2-gameplay-demo-pax-2012-brings-your-phantasy-online/

not gonna lie, it's great to see the game in english :) and if I were an outsider I'd say the game looks like great fun.

Looks like they are just using the fanmade English Patch..

Mikura
Sep 2, 2012, 08:21 PM
lol I was about to say. It doesn't look much different than what we already have with the fan-made patch.

I'm still glad the game is getting a US/EU release, but whether or not I switch from JP will largely depend on how far behind they'll be on updates. To be honest, I was going to stay on JP regardless, but now that SoJ is refusing to take our CCs and we have to use alternative sources with mark ups, that's starting to make me reconsider.

pikachief
Sep 2, 2012, 08:25 PM
lol I was about to say. It doesn't look much different than what we already have with the fan-made patch.

I'm still glad the game is getting a US/EU release, but whether or not I switch from JP will largely depend on how far behind they'll be on updates. To be honest, I was going to stay on JP regardless, but now that SoJ is refusing to take our CCs and we have to use alternative sources with mark ups, that's starting to make me reconsider.

others have said they'd be fine with a couple months. So would I! If it was 2 months behind i'd be on US version. If it was 4 months behind I might. But it'll most likely release at the same place JP PSO2 released and if that happens and US is 9-12 months behind then I'm staying on JP :|

(btw i meant my main account. I'll still play on US occasionally to support the US version and play with friends on there)

gigawuts
Sep 2, 2012, 08:34 PM
The issue is, half the time a lot of the content in patches is themed. So unless you're all expecting bikinis 2 months after summer, it's more likely you'll get a delay of 1 year for a lot of stuff.

Flame
Sep 2, 2012, 08:38 PM
Looks like they are just using the fanmade English Patch..

wait really? It's just nice seeing things like Hilda the operator saying " We got rockbear readings out there. Look sharp, people"

It has a nice localized flavor. Is that from the fan patch as well?

Mikura
Sep 2, 2012, 08:44 PM
wait really? It's just nice seeing things like Hilda the operator saying " We got rockbear readings out there. Look sharp, people"

It has a nice localized flavor. Is that from the fan patch as well?

Yes. Latest patch, they translated all the field communications you see pop-up during combat. Well, I think it's all of them anyway.

Also, on the subject of content. I'd be fine waiting longer for themed items since it only makes sense they come out during the appropriate time of year. I was referring more to lvl caps, new areas, new classes, new weapons and armor, etc. All the aesthetic stuff like bikinis and dresses and "gag" weapons can wait to be honest. As long as we get the real meat and potatoes of the game released in a timely matter, then I'll seriously consider switching over.

Flame
Sep 2, 2012, 08:54 PM
Yes. Latest patch, they translated all the field communications you see pop-up during combat. Well, I think it's all of them anyway.



Okay but is this the same translation exactly? Word for word? That's what I'm asking.

Lumpen Thingy
Sep 2, 2012, 09:16 PM
Okay but is this the same translation exactly? Word for word? That's what I'm asking.

pretty much

Mikura
Sep 2, 2012, 09:58 PM
Okay but is this the same translation exactly? Word for word? That's what I'm asking.

More or less. The only thing we'll really benefit from the US/EU release is understanding the matterboard story quests without having to go through the trouble of researching it online.

Noblewine
Sep 2, 2012, 10:10 PM
Maybe I'll see a review of pso2 on x-play. Hopefully they give it a good review since they hate anything anime. =/
Anyways, happy to hear its being shown and I can't wait to play it.

Angelo
Sep 2, 2012, 10:17 PM
Maybe I'll see a review of pso2 on x-play. Hopefully they give it a good review since they hate anything anime. =/
Anyways, happy to hear its being shown and I can't wait to play it.

The anti-Japan movement will not be kind to this game, it's best if it stays out of the limelight of major media outlets and gains merit through word of mouth.

If the game ends up available on Steam, I think that could do more wonders than a televised review.

Mikura
Sep 2, 2012, 10:23 PM
The anti-Japan movement will not be kind to this game, it's best if it stays out of the limelight of major media outlets and gains merit through word of mouth.

If the game ends up available on Steam, I think that could do more wonders than a televised review.

Steam is the only way I see this game ever really taking off here in the states to be honest.

gigawuts
Sep 2, 2012, 10:29 PM
The anti-Japan movement will not be kind to this game, it's best if it stays out of the limelight of major media outlets and gains merit through word of mouth.

If the game ends up available on Steam, I think that could do more wonders than a televised review.

I don't know. I think PSO has played such an integral role in gaming that the only groups that will really hate on it will be the ones too young to have played it, and even then many of that group may have a passing interest in it. Then there's the ones who never liked it at all, but they won't be interested no matter what (unless they take another look at it and enjoy a more active game, which PSO2 is).

I think PSO2 will have a good reception. Surely, most reporters and reviewers will have either played or heard positive remarks from colleagues about PSO1.

So it's got that going for it. It's PSO, and it's integrated modern gaming mechanics. It's most definitely upped the ante, as all successful sequels need to. It has a brilliant framework, that's definitely there. All it needs is content - or to be more specific, it needs engaging content. At present we just have hard difficulty, which gets grindy (as medium difficulties always do when you're stuck at them). Hopefully at release they'll have a faster schedule, with the content completed, and players will have more to do. English audiences do tend to move on to newer games sooner.

Flame
Sep 2, 2012, 10:31 PM
pretty much


More or less.

you guys do know what word for word means right?

Sinue_v2
Sep 2, 2012, 10:31 PM
Yes. Latest patch, they translated all the field communications you see pop-up during combat. Well, I think it's all of them anyway.

Isn't that illegal? Wouldn't it be similar to a publishing company acquiring the rights to a manga, and then just printing up the scanlations from the fan community and selling them as if it were their own work? Granted, they aren't selling it, but still it's being used to provide them free labor and to promote a commercial product.

Maybe they got permission, and even if they didn't, maybe nobody cares enough to make a fuss since the ultimate goal of all parties is to increase accessibility of PSO2 and make it successful. Still, it just seems dodgy as fuck for Sonic Team to simply use a fan-made patch to present an official product, rather than their own labor.

gigawuts
Sep 2, 2012, 10:33 PM
Isn't that illegal? Wouldn't it be similar to a publishing company acquiring the rights to a manga, and then just printing up the scanlations from the fan community and selling them as if it were their own work? Granted, they aren't selling it, but still it's being used to provide them free labor and to promote a commercial product.

Maybe they got permission, and even if they didn't, maybe nobody cares enough to make a fuss since the ultimate goal of all parties is to increase accessibility of PSO2 and make it successful. Still, it just seems dodgy as fuck for Sonic Team to simply use a fan-made patch to present an official product, rather than their own labor.

If I had to guess, I'd say it's no more illegal than decrypting the files, distributing the patch, applying the patch, and playing on the JP servers from outside of Japan.

Sinue_v2
Sep 2, 2012, 10:35 PM
If I had to guess, I'd say it's no more illegal than decrypting the files, distributing the patch, applying the patch, and playing on the JP servers from outside of Japan.

Even if all of that may be illegal (which it may well be, at least in breach of contract via the ToS), that wouldn't excuse Sonic Team of their actions. The legal world doesn't operate on "an eye for an eye" justice. It would have been Sega's responsibility to shut down the fan translation and take appropriate action to the extent they could within the law. If they choose not to exercise that right, that does not waive them of the responsibility of their own actions.

Flame
Sep 2, 2012, 10:36 PM
Isn't that illegal? Wouldn't it be similar to a publishing company acquiring the rights to a manga, and then just printing up the scanlations from the fan community and selling them as if it were their own work? Granted, they aren't selling it, but still it's being used to provide them free labor and to promote a commercial product.

Maybe they got permission, and even if they didn't, maybe nobody cares enough to make a fuss since the ultimate goal of all parties is to increase accessibility of PSO2 and make it successful. Still, it just seems dodgy as fuck for Sonic Team to simply use a fan-made patch to present an official product, rather than their own labor.

that's what I'm trying to confirm. If they are in fact using the patch verbatim or not.

Sizustar
Sep 2, 2012, 10:39 PM
Isn't that illegal? Wouldn't it be similar to a publishing company acquiring the rights to a manga, and then just printing up the scanlations from the fan community and selling them as if it were their own work? Granted, they aren't selling it, but still it's being used to provide them free labor and to promote a commercial product.

Maybe they got permission, and even if they didn't, maybe nobody cares enough to make a fuss since the ultimate goal of all parties is to increase accessibility of PSO2 and make it successful. Still, it just seems dodgy as fuck for Sonic Team to simply use a fan-made patch to present an official product, rather than their own labor.

If anything, it's between the translator and Sega of America, they might have an agreement, or they might not.
Unless it is shown they are indeed using the translation patch made by third party, everything is speculation.

Vashyron
Sep 2, 2012, 11:04 PM
lol

It's not the same at all. Sega have even run into their own issues, like no spacing in the Meseta Log such as "10Meseta" instead of the Translation patch's "10 Meseta."

blace
Sep 2, 2012, 11:09 PM
The only notable similarities are the names of the mobs, they all correspond with the patches translation. Everything else is worded differently or like Vashyron pointed out minor typos.

Chik'Tikka
Sep 3, 2012, 12:16 AM
Segac's Translation of PSO's "FOmarl wear" in PSO to "Formal wear" in PSU, yeah, so far i'm much more impressed with Agrajag and Co.'s translation project+^_^+
http://dcmedia.ign.com/media/news2/image/001020/fomarl.jpg

Griffin
Sep 3, 2012, 12:35 AM
Ok how about this?


I'll be playing BOTH versions. Because there is no law that says I cannot.

Chik'Tikka
Sep 3, 2012, 12:54 AM
Ok how about this?


I'll be playing BOTH versions. Because there is no law that says I cannot.

and no membership fees+^_^+ edit, when did i pop 1K posts?+^_^+
nevermind, i traced it back+^_^+
[SPOILER-BOX]
that I've probably played too much+^_^+
(also, awesome name Flame, makes me wonder if your trying to feed my inner troll+^_^+)

EDIT!! found it, this is my 1000 post

+^_^+
http://img.xcitefun.net/users/2010/03/161012,xcitefun-congratulations-7.jpg

[/SPOILER-BOX]

jooozek
Sep 4, 2012, 07:38 AM
According to one of the members of the "PSO2 english patch forums" they intend to keep a really small delay between the NA/EU version and the JP version:


-The other rep and Edward both said that they intend to stay as close to the JP servers as possible with patches. With a 1week to 1 month translation delay before releasing new content.

Agitated_AT
Sep 4, 2012, 08:03 AM
According to one of the members of the "PSO2 english patch forums" they intend to keep a really small delay between the NA/EU version and the JP version:

1 week to 1 month would be IDEAL

Ce'Nedra
Sep 4, 2012, 08:06 AM
According to one of the members of the "PSO2 english patch forums" they intend to keep a really small delay between the NA/EU version and the JP version:

First see then believe, this is SoA we're talking about afterall. After how much PSU was behind its hard to believe they will get this up to date in time and such.

Fox2Tails
Sep 4, 2012, 08:10 AM
It wont happen, a month in and they'll miss the update and then the game gets bigger and bigger and one day they'll rename it to PSU2 and try to be unique yet rely on updates from SoJ

Valkyrie Lovrina
Sep 4, 2012, 08:18 AM
According to one of the members of the "PSO2 english patch forums" they intend to keep a really small delay between the NA/EU version and the JP version:
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjlubLtHY1rn1xxfo1_100.gif

can't wait till Unique PSO2 :wacko:. losing all the work done on the JP servers and having to see or possibly hear in English Zeno spouting about how sexy Echo is and how much Lovrina can't have her. yeah, still trying to get over that... I'll be staying on the JP servers definitely. I never played X360PSU but Edward sounds like such a tool.

jooozek
Sep 4, 2012, 08:20 AM
First see then believe, this is SoA we're talking about afterall. After how much PSU was behind its hard to believe they will get this up to date in time and such.

No, it's SoJ we are talking about, where did you get the idea that NA PSU delays were SoA's fault? Do you think that translations can take one year? It was obviously SoJ keeping the lash.

Ce'Nedra
Sep 4, 2012, 08:31 AM
No, it's SoJ we are talking about, where did you get the idea that NA PSU delays were SoA's fault? Do you think that translations can take one year? It was obviously SoJ keeping the lash.

Not much translating but someone did keep the updates back. Either way SoJ or SoA...I highly doubt it makes much diffrence, SoJ is too bussy caring for the JP servers to bother with EU/NA unless they put a special team on it, which I doubt highly, hence I think it will fall on the shoulders of SoA and they will screw it up.

Time will have to tell.

Ezodagrom
Sep 4, 2012, 08:55 AM
No, it's SoJ we are talking about, where did you get the idea that NA PSU delays were SoA's fault? Do you think that translations can take one year? It was obviously SoJ keeping the lash.
I don't believe it was just SoJ that was responsible for the delays, Anarchy Reigns (Max Anarchy) was released in Japan in July, and according to the developers, the english and japanese versions are identical, the japanese version even has options for english translation, but the game was delayed in the west, it's only going to be released in 2013.

With SoA showing how incompetent they are with things like this, it's hard to believe that the PSU delays were SoJ fault, I wouldn't say that it was completely SoA fault either, it's likely that both SoA and SoJ contributed to the delays.

kkow
Sep 4, 2012, 09:03 AM
soj is nearly bankrupt as it is aren't they? that doesn't bode well for any overseas service i would think.

Enforcer MKV
Sep 4, 2012, 09:04 AM
soj is nearly bankrupt as it is aren't they? that doesn't bode well for any overseas service i would think.

Or it could spur SoA to really pull out all the stops so they don't lose their jobs.

Either way, time will tell.

gigawuts
Sep 4, 2012, 12:01 PM
No, it's SoJ we are talking about, where did you get the idea that NA PSU delays were SoA's fault? Do you think that translations can take one year? It was obviously SoJ keeping the lash.

I don't think it matters whose fault it is, so much as that it does happen. The fact is it's under SoA's game, so they'll get the blame from most parties. They could've been totally innocent, but SoJ's still had more content and had it sooner, plus better overall server support.

I really hope SoA can push out a good product/server this time though. I'd like to play both, but if it's not as good as they're saying I'll be staying right where I am.

Flame
Sep 4, 2012, 12:06 PM
another glowing preview

http://www.gamezone.com/products/phantasy-star-online-2/previews/pax-prime-2012-phantasy-star-online-2-hands-on-preview

some cute mistakes like calling Casts "CASTers"

Sinue_v2
Sep 4, 2012, 01:34 PM
According to one of the members of the "PSO2 english patch forums" they intend to keep a really small delay between the NA/EU version and the JP version:


-The other rep and Edward both said that they intend to stay as close to the JP servers as possible with patches. With a 1week to 1 month translation delay before releasing new content.

This is pretty much the exact same thing they told us when PSU launched. Why should anyone believe them now?

Anon_Fire
Sep 4, 2012, 01:41 PM
another glowing preview

http://www.gamezone.com/products/phantasy-star-online-2/previews/pax-prime-2012-phantasy-star-online-2-hands-on-preview

some cute mistakes like calling Casts "CASTers"

and Dreamcaseal just won't let it go about PSO2.

ShinMaruku
Sep 4, 2012, 01:47 PM
I just don't have all that much confidence in SoA. I
SoA's directives come from SoJ so your real issues is with Sega proper being incompetent.

Golto
Sep 4, 2012, 02:02 PM
SoA didn't do the translation work of the patches for PSU, SoJ did. So SoJ is entirely to blame for the failure of NA/EU PSU's lagging behind farther and farther JPN PSU. Blaming SoA for getting so far behind in updates is like blaming a hourly worker at a gas station for high gas prices.

SoJ might be able to keep up on the updates because they won't have to go through M$ certification and the added work of several platforms. But SoJ has such a bad track record I'll believe it when I see it.

EvilMag
Sep 4, 2012, 02:08 PM
This is pretty much the exact same thing they told us when PSU launched. Why should anyone believe them now?


Pretty much this. This is the same team that told us PSU will be following the JP servers then 5 years later they decided to say that PSU 360 is a "unique" version of PSU because they reused old models for the PSP2 weapons.

SoA's flat out lies is the reason why I'm not touching the US/EU servers.

chaos-shadow
Sep 4, 2012, 03:01 PM
SoA didn't do the translation work of the patches for PSU, SoJ did. So SoJ is entirely to blame for the failure of NA/EU PSU's lagging behind farther and farther JPN PSU. Blaming SoA for getting so far behind in updates is like blaming a hourly worker at a gas station for high gas prices.

SoJ might be able to keep up on the updates because they won't have to go through M$ certification and the added work of several platforms. But SoJ has such a bad track record I'll believe it when I see it.

^^^ I want to just point this little post out.

hbmizzle10
Sep 4, 2012, 03:37 PM
yes please stop blaming sega of america like it is an entirely different company. they are the same company. if you have a problem with the pso games blame sega of japan. they are the creators and they give the orders. so whatever pso is lacking in america is because japan havent given permission for them to use it yet and there is a specific obvious reason for that.

AncientRemnants
Sep 4, 2012, 04:08 PM
yes please stop blaming sega of america like it is an entirely different company. they are the same company. if you have a problem with the pso games blame sega of japan. they are the creators and they give the orders. so whatever pso is lacking in america is because japan havent given permission for them to use it yet and there is a specific obvious reason for that.

You know, I didn't see it like that until you say it. I have to say that i believe your right. Correct me if i'm wrong, but it IS Saga of Japan's company. All the decisions come from them and if something is way off on updates, it IS SOJ fault for not authorizing it for us. Think about it this way. Maybe SOJ forgot about SOA in PSU and never shipped/allowed/authorized for it to be released for western servers because no one was playing in the servers for SOJ to take their time out and release it. Don't get me wrong, this is all assumptions that i'm throwing on the table so don't shoot me just for saying it. Just want someone else's opinion on this statement.

Zyrusticae
Sep 4, 2012, 04:19 PM
What is said above is basically correct.

Of course, this is no consolation as we're still getting boned either way. But at least I have the option of playing on the official (non-western) servers.

Mystil
Sep 4, 2012, 04:23 PM
This is pretty much the exact same thing they told us when PSU launched. Why should anyone believe them now?

..They also said it was "impossible to cheat" and look what happened..

EvilMag
Sep 4, 2012, 04:33 PM
Its both of their faults.

ShinMaruku
Sep 4, 2012, 05:22 PM
Pretty much this. This is the same team that told us PSU will be following the JP servers then 5 years later they decided to say that PSU 360 is a "unique" version of PSU because they reused old models for the PSP2 weapons.

SoA's flat out lies is the reason why I'm not touching the US/EU servers.
Sega of Japan lies all the time too. Why you think it has fallen so low?

EvilMag
Sep 4, 2012, 05:29 PM
Sega of Japan lies all the time too. Why you think it has fallen so low?

At least they compensate with those lies.

SoA doesn't do jack shit.

TaigaUC
Sep 4, 2012, 08:13 PM
I was initially impressed with PSO2's gameplay, but I came to realize that, although it is better than previous games I've tried, there are stil a lot of serious flaws with the game. In relying on progression and systems commonly seen in RPGs and other online games, such as focus on levelling, equipment and stats, it falls into the same traps as other online games and doesn't hold up in the long run.

As one example, I can't stand that the difficulty and fun factor of the game relies so heavily on whether you have the right gear, level and stats. Regardless of skill, if you're below par, combat is tedious and boring. If you're at par, combat is just right and fun. If you're above par, combat's a joke. You can't even play with your friends if everyone doesn't keep up with the levels required to play specific areas. I've always hated that in these kinds of games.

PSO2 also relies heavily on random number generators behind almost every aspect of its gameplay. I won't go into the stupid upgrading systems, but a more important example is how completing a quest on time (or even at all) relies heavily on if the game decides to spawn the enemies or events you need, and if the game decides to completely screw you with a combination of events that waste your time. Systems using random number generators are nothing but monkey wrenches that force you to replay old content. They often conflict with the goals set by the game, and often make the game less fun. Thus, they should be removed or replaced entirely.

The games I've played for decades and STILL play don't rely on progression, randomness or RPG systems at all. They focus on making the main gameplay fun and deep to the point that, even if I've already played the game to death, I can still pick up the game at any time, without having to grind up to level requirements or obtain rare gear. I can engage in any battle, in any area, with any enemy, using any setup I like. And I will still have a fresh, unique and fun experience, where there is always room for more experimentation and improvement of my own personal ability and playstyle.

I've been thinking that PSO2 would probably be a lot more fun if it was nothing but huge bosses with lots of interesting patterns to learn and master, and without all of the level and equipment nonsense. The upcoming update claims to have many new bosses, so we'll see how that goes.



I've never understood the don't complain stance.
Sega wants to make the game better, which is why they just did a 1st player survey, so players can let Sega know of their grievance, and Sega can make a better game.

And it's not just English/foreign player that feels the game can't be better.

Here's a game review by a Japanese player.


Haha. That's a long list of bad points. I absolutely agree with you that the "don't complain" stance is nonsensical. I'm glad that other people are pointing out the flaws in this game. After all, how can one improve on something if they don't know what problems it has, or that it's even problematic at all? People nowadays just want to accept everything as is. Nobody wants to try and improve anything. They want to believe that everything's as good as it can be, because it makes them feel more safe, secure and content. It's a cesspool of laziness, apathy and ignorance.

Personally, I have a habit of focusing on the negatives, so that I can improve upon them. However, when it comes to feedback, creators need to filter through everyone's concerns on an equal level, because they don't know who is full of it and who isn't. They have no idea if the feedback they receive is from someone with experience who has serious concerns. Fact is, most people don't know what they are talking about. They complain about things that aren't actually issues, are extremely subjective, and only complain in favor of their personal cause. Positive feedback also suffers from these same problems. Many people only focus on the positives and don't want to see the negatives. With all this in mind, you can imagine how ridiculously difficult to obtain valid feedback for anything. I only listen to feedback from people I can trust.

Here's another example that I think results from the "don't complain" culture: Amongst art-related communities, people who can't draw at all are always showered with encouragement and compliments. This makes them believe they they are the best, and never improve. They use the positive feedback as a defense to justify that they are already perfect. They even gang up on, discredit and ridicule anyone who points out that they have room for improvement. Meanwhile, artists who have real talent tend to not receive feedback at all. It's really very sad and makes no sense. It encourages everyone to focus on ego-stroking and discourages quality and skill. I often feel like everything around us is heading in that direction.

Sinue_v2
Sep 4, 2012, 08:23 PM
yes please stop blaming sega of america like it is an entirely different company. they are the same company. if you have a problem with the pso games blame sega of japan. they are the creators and they give the orders. so whatever pso is lacking in america is because japan havent given permission for them to use it yet and there is a specific obvious reason for that.

Yes, I probably should have qualified my statement earlier. Edward is a shitbird, but it's not necessarily a reflection on him personally or his ability to manage a community. He's a shitbird of circumstance; a consequence of taking on a job which pretty much is the definition of impotence when it comes to actually taking the action necessary to succeed at it.

SoJ, and probably more to the point - Sega Corporate, with their history of contempt for their international branches as well as their handling of Sonic Team - is far more to blame. SoJ has basically seen SoA as rival that needs to learn their place after their repeated successes in the West which SoJ they couldn't deliver at home. Been that way since the Genesis. Further, it's been leaked by insiders that that Sega Corporate basically treats ST as just a stable for their workhorse, Sonic. Creativity and ambition are, by and large, squelched as resources and budgets are routinely diverted from their side projects into more shitty Sonic games that nobody there wants to be working on.

So... want to know where all your US/EU PSU content was going? Right here.

[spoiler-box]http://ve3dmedia.ign.com/images/03/22/32297_normal.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Sources:
Sonic Team employees hate working for Sonic Team. (http://www.tssznews.com/2009/01/05/the-blog-sega-doesnt-want-you-to-read/)
Segagaga Translation Blog; STF Director Cool, Tom Kalinsky, and some history. (http://www.adilegian.com/Segagaga/?p=26)

(I know you recently posted the latter story in Off-Topic. Sources are just here for their own merit, and for other readers)

ShinMaruku
Sep 4, 2012, 08:53 PM
At least they compensate with those lies.

SoA doesn't do jack shit.
Sega proper does not do jack shit either.
My point is all parts of Sega are full of shit.

Flame
Sep 4, 2012, 09:13 PM
I was initially impressed with PSO2's gameplay, but I came to realize that, although it is better than previous games I've tried, there are stil a lot of serious flaws with the game. In relying on progression and systems commonly seen in RPGs and other online games, such as focus on levelling, equipment and stats, it falls into the same traps as other online games and doesn't hold up in the long run.

As one example, I can't stand that the difficulty and fun factor of the game relies so heavily on whether you have the right gear, level and stats. Regardless of skill, if you're below par, combat is tedious and boring. If you're at par, combat is just right and fun. If you're above par, combat's a joke. You can't even play with your friends if everyone doesn't keep up with the levels required to play specific areas. I've always hated that in these kinds of games.

PSO2 also relies heavily on random number generators behind almost every aspect of its gameplay. I won't go into the stupid upgrading systems, but a more important example is how completing a quest on time (or even at all) relies heavily on if the game decides to spawn the enemies or events you need, and if the game decides to completely screw you with a combination of events that waste your time. Systems using random number generators are nothing but monkey wrenches that force you to replay old content. They often conflict with the goals set by the game, and often make the game less fun. Thus, they should be removed or replaced entirely.

The games I've played for decades and STILL play don't rely on progression, randomness or RPG systems at all. They focus on making the main gameplay fun and deep to the point that, even if I've already played the game to death, I can still pick up the game at any time, without having to grind up to level requirements or obtain rare gear. I can engage in any battle, in any area, with any enemy, using any setup I like. And I will still have a fresh, unique and fun experience, where there is always room for more experimentation and improvement of my own personal ability and playstyle.

I've been thinking that PSO2 would probably be a lot more fun if it was nothing but huge bosses with lots of interesting patterns to learn and master, and without all of the level and equipment nonsense. The upcoming update claims to have many new bosses, so we'll see how that goes.



Haha. That's a long list of bad points. I absolutely agree with you that the "don't complain" stance is nonsensical. I'm glad that other people are pointing out the flaws in this game. After all, how can one improve on something if they don't know what problems it has, or that it's even problematic at all? People nowadays just want to accept everything as is. Nobody wants to try and improve anything. They want to believe that everything's as good as it can be, because it makes them feel more safe, secure and content. It's a cesspool of laziness, apathy and ignorance.

Personally, I have a habit of focusing on the negatives, so that I can improve upon them. However, when it comes to feedback, creators need to filter through everyone's concerns on an equal level, because they don't know who is full of it and who isn't. They have no idea if the feedback they receive is from someone with experience who has serious concerns. Fact is, most people don't know what they are talking about. They complain about things that aren't actually issues, are extremely subjective, and only complain in favor of their personal cause. Positive feedback also suffers from these same problems. Many people only focus on the positives and don't want to see the negatives. With all this in mind, you can imagine how ridiculously difficult to obtain valid feedback for anything. I only listen to feedback from people I can trust.

Here's another example that I think results from the "don't complain" culture: Amongst art-related communities, people who can't draw at all are always showered with encouragement and compliments. This makes them believe they they are the best, and never improve. They use the positive feedback as a defense to justify that they are already perfect. They even gang up on, discredit and ridicule anyone who points out that they have room for improvement. Meanwhile, artists who have real talent tend to not receive feedback at all. It's really very sad and makes no sense. It encourages everyone to focus on ego-stroking and discourages quality and skill. I often feel like everything around us is heading in that direction.

100% with you dude. The game has a long way to go. The focus on randomized content and level cap based progression is absolutely crippling the experience. I am also in agreement about the "dont complain" culture. It really seems to me that most people on PSOW would rather turn a blind eye to the pretty severe problems with this game and try on some new clothes than talk about how to make it better. There's a good reason there are so many "I'm bored" topics floating around. My biggest suggestion would be to do away with the randomly generated fields and revert back to 3 or 4 variations of designed stages. Keep the interrupt events, they're all you'll need to keep things feeling fresh. Oh, and abolish level caps. Let players play what they've earned.

Also, I'd love to read a translation of that jp review. Is there a link to the original source somewhere?

JeffHikari
Sep 4, 2012, 09:16 PM
The games I've played for decades and STILL play don't rely on progression, randomness or RPG systems at all. They focus on making the main gameplay fun and deep to the point that, even if I've already played the game to death, I can still pick up the game at any time, without having to grind up to level requirements or obtain rare gear. I can engage in any battle, in any area, with any enemy, using any setup I like. And I will still have a fresh, unique and fun experience, where there is always room for more experimentation and improvement of my own personal ability and playstyle.

I've been thinking that PSO2 would probably be a lot more fun if it was nothing but huge bosses with lots of interesting patterns to learn and master, and without all of the level and equipment nonsense. The upcoming update claims to have many new bosses, so we'll see how that goes.





What you seem to be saying is that you want PSO2 to be more like Monster Hunter or a similar style of game, but with more action, and less RPG elements? It seems like this approach would take the game too far from it's roots as an RPG. Hell, even Monster Hunter, a game that entirely relies on well thought out boss fights, has progression, albeit through equipment upgrades and hollow levels that only serve to show that you can handle harder bosses.

Quick Edit: I think a good "Quick & Dirty" Fix would be for SEGA to bring back Challenge Mode, where everything comes down to skill and memorization, more like classic action or arcade games. Monster Hunter had something like this as well, in their Training and Arena modes. You get a preset loadout of equipment, and the game expects you to handle whatever it throws at you with it.

kkow
Sep 4, 2012, 10:07 PM
Also, I'd love to read a translation of that jp review. Is there a link to the original source somewhere?

just skimmed through but fairly funny review regardless. apparently the only good comments he had were the graphics and cute patty/tia. the rest is pretty much criticism about nearly every aspect of the game. gatcha scratch, ac shop price, grinding/ability, drops, dislike of the random map, too easy mobs, comparison to previousgames, the list goes on and on... /lazy

would also like a link to the original /lazy

ShadowDragon28
Sep 4, 2012, 10:23 PM
I do not understand the reasoning or any of the points saying/implying PSO2 "should not be "progression based", or that it "shouldn't have randomized maps".

Flame
Sep 4, 2012, 10:38 PM
I do not understand the reasoning or any of the points saying/implying PSO2 "should not be "progression based", or that it "shouldn't have randomized maps".

Whats not to understand? Randomly generated maps aren't designed and aren't fun. How much would you enjoy a randomized Mario level? I guarantee it wouldn't be anywhere near as fun as one someone had designed. The best video game levels are about progression in and of themselves. A level that started out having you navigate around pits would later then have you navigate pits while being fired on by enemies and so forth. There is zero of such progression in this game because the levels have no thought put into them. They're pointless.

ShadowDragon28
Sep 4, 2012, 10:50 PM
IMO the randomly generated maps make the areas more fun and exciting as I and I am sure others enjoy them more than having the same exact area layout all the time, and it's more exciting IMO than having only 3-4 varients.

To me they ARE fun. I'd LOVE a Mario and or Sonic the Hedgehog game with randomly generated levels, that would be pretty cool IMO.
In my veiw "randomized levels" this adds to replayability and in a action RPG like PSO2makes hunting for specific Units or weapons a lot more fun. I do not see it as "pointless" at all.

Flame
Sep 4, 2012, 10:56 PM
IMO the randomly generated maps make the areas more fun and exciting as I and I am sure others enjoy them more than having the same exact area layout all the time, and it's more exciting IMO than having only 3-4 varients.

To me they ARE fun. I'd LOVE a Mario and or Sonic the Hedgehog game with randomly generated levels, that would be pretty cool IMO.
In my veiw "randomized levels" this adds to replayability and in a action RPG like PSO2makes hunting for specific Units or weapons a lot more fun. I do not see it as "pointless" at all.

That's great that you like it, but it doesn't change the fact that the level design is weak because of it. I'm suggesting 3-4 designed variants with interrupt events. I'm not opposed to random elements but the coupling of random + random makes for a pretty hit and miss experience. It also makes the whole thing feel cheap.

And believe me, you do not want a sonic/mario game with randomly generated areas. It would be hellish.

ShadowDragon28
Sep 4, 2012, 10:58 PM
In your subjective opinion.

In my view the level design of areas in PSO2 is very strong, and I like the IMO dynamic feel of randomized levels. I'd love a "hellish" Sonic! That would be pretty exciting IMO.

JeffHikari
Sep 4, 2012, 10:59 PM
Regarding randomly generated maps, I like them when I'm just exploring and killing stuff, but when a Timer is involved, I would rather have a static map so I don't have to hope the RNG lets me get that 25 min S-rank or whatever.

Zelda01
Sep 5, 2012, 01:47 AM
come on people we already cover this review and preview of PSO2 in japan and why the hell we are covering this game again plus its not necessary really. It gonna make thing worse for pso2. AND yet they still planing on Releasing it for North America & Euro game that still wont change the fact that we gonna be outdated and we wont be keeping up with the new update for pso2 in japan. PSO2 gonna go down hill for us Foreigner. specially the mess up part is the lack of GM wont give a damn about the customer or the hacker that be coming in the game. Sega of Japan is already on top of thing to fix there game and stop Hacker from screwing with there game. As for the NA & Euro its gonna be hell and there nothing we cant do about its. Mark my words if Sega of America gonna do this they better DO better job, they already screw up on psu. *wishful thinking* Hope they don't screw up this game. so far Sega of japan made statement about IP blocking Foreigner and using the cash shop from there game . BUT still ppl gonna figure thing out and there always gonna be a back door to invade there game. atm your gonna say to me THAT I don't know what am saying. but you know I am right about this and no one here gonna speak up about it
Im telling u this now... its gonna be a another psu for pso2 for the NA & Euro and you just wait and see how bad gonna get just mark my words

Sizustar
Sep 5, 2012, 02:19 AM
come on people we already cover this review and preview of PSO2 in japan and why the hell we are covering this game again plus its not necessary really. It gonna make thing worse for pso2. AND yet they still planing on Releasing it for North America & Euro game that still wont change the fact that we gonna be outdated and we wont be keeping up with the new update for pso2 in japan. PSO2 gonna go down hill for us Foreigner. specially the mess up part is the lack of GM wont give a damn about the customer or the hacker that be coming in the game. Sega of Japan is already on top of thing to fix there game and stop Hacker from screwing with there game. As for the NA & Euro its gonna be hell and there nothing we cant do about its. Mark my words if Sega of America gonna do this they better DO better job, they already screw up on psu. *wishful thinking* Hope they don't screw up this game. so far Sega of japan made statement about IP blocking Foreigner and using the cash shop from there game . BUT still ppl gonna figure thing out and there always gonna be a back door to invade there game. atm your gonna say to me THAT I don't know what am saying. but you know I am right about this and no one here gonna speak up about it
Im telling u this now... its gonna be a another psu for pso2 for the NA & Euro and you just wait and see how bad gonna get just mark my words

This is hard to understand, can you type that in simpler English?

IzzyData
Sep 5, 2012, 02:39 AM
come on people we already cover this review and preview of PSO2 in japan and why the hell we are covering this game again plus its not necessary really. It gonna make thing worse for pso2. AND yet they still planing on Releasing it for North America & Euro game that still wont change the fact that we gonna be outdated and we wont be keeping up with the new update for pso2 in japan. PSO2 gonna go down hill for us Foreigner. specially the mess up part is the lack of GM wont give a damn about the customer or the hacker that be coming in the game. Sega of Japan is already on top of thing to fix there game and stop Hacker from screwing with there game. As for the NA & Euro its gonna be hell and there nothing we cant do about its. Mark my words if Sega of America gonna do this they better DO better job, they already screw up on psu. *wishful thinking* Hope they don't screw up this game. so far Sega of japan made statement about IP blocking Foreigner and using the cash shop from there game . BUT still ppl gonna figure thing out and there always gonna be a back door to invade there game. atm your gonna say to me THAT I don't know what am saying. but you know I am right about this and no one here gonna speak up about it
Im telling u this now... its gonna be a another psu for pso2 for the NA & Euro and you just wait and see how bad gonna get just mark my words


Translation: Key points



-Phantasy Star Online 2 was already introduced in Japan, why introduce it again?

-Pso2 is going to be outdated on the NA servers compared to the JP servers.

-Game administrators on the NA servers won't care about customer satisfaction

-Japan is already ontop of things regarding hackers.

-NA servers are going to be terrible like psu NA servers.

-Sega of Japan already made statements about IP banning non Japanese players.

-Non Japanese players will find ways to play the JP server anyway

-You might think I don't know what I am saying.


You don't know what you are talking about.

Agitated_AT
Sep 5, 2012, 03:31 AM
In your subjective opinion.

In my view the level design of areas in PSO2 is very strong, and I like the IMO dynamic feel of randomized levels. I'd love a "hellish" Sonic! That would be pretty exciting IMO.

Well that's an opinion with low standards then. I don't know what your interpretition of very strong level design is. So maybe if you can explain that perhaps I can understand you better and take you more seriously.





I've been thinking that PSO2 would probably be a lot more fun if it was nothing but huge bosses with lots of interesting patterns to learn and master, and without all of the level and equipment nonsense. The upcoming update claims to have many new bosses, so we'll see how that goes.



This is a terrible Idea, but you know you only say this because the regular mobs are a joke right? So instead the solution is simply more agressive mobs with additional health.

IzzyData
Sep 5, 2012, 03:45 AM
Well that's an opinion with low standards then. I don't know what your interpretition of very strong level design is. So maybe if you can explain that perhaps I can understand you better and take you more seriously.


It seems like a lot of the programming is based on this grid. It is kind of similar to pso ep1-2 with its very distinct room, but a lot harder to tell. Although if you press n and look at the grid overlay on the map it becomes pretty obvious how it is basically just sticking puzzle pieces together wherever they fix at random.

I kind of like its simplicity, but that is just me.

On a side note it would be incredibly hard to make a randomized map in any other fashion. You could make a ton of preset maps and choose them at random or you can do it this way and this way is a lot more interesting. So overall I think the level design in that respect is pretty good. If we are talking about graphics then I don't have anything to contribute.

Agitated_AT
Sep 5, 2012, 03:46 AM
I do not understand the reasoning or any of the points saying/implying PSO2 "should not be "progression based", or that it "shouldn't have randomized maps".

Progression based meaning that progression shouldn't be the only thing that drives the game. Progression as in progressing the story, progressing from area to area. The game has very bad replay value at the moment, because once you "progres" through it's content, everything starts to feel boring and it becomes more noticable the only reason you slightly enjoyed the experience, was because it felt like you had the basic goal of getting to the end. NO MMO can survive on that, an MMO needs the best replayibility of all genres. PSO2's lack of replayibility lies in many reasons. Not only how much of a joke the areas feel, but because everything is such a cakewalk(except for the bosses) anything that has to do with powering your character up feels REDUNDANT. The trick becomes old and PSO2 is failing where PSO1 exceeded enormously.

PSO1's replayibility is still better because of how well crafted and polished the overall game experience was. Subtle things matter

IzzyData
Sep 5, 2012, 03:49 AM
I have a feeling that once very hard and ultimate mode come out that it wont be so easy and mindless. Doing hard mode on pso1 was pretty easy too and if I spent a month on it I would probably get bored.

Agitated_AT
Sep 5, 2012, 03:54 AM
Anyone is missing the point when they say, hard was easy in PSO1 as well. You're being too unspecific. When was it easy? What made it easy? What parts were easy?

If you ask me, the first step into forest in normal is allready a challenging experience. Actually every first step into a new area is a challenging experience for a couple of levels. And then there is area specific aspects that made an area hard because of other things(enemy behaviour etc)

For example, ruins on normal is harder than forest on hard because of this

IzzyData
Sep 5, 2012, 04:07 AM
Each difficulty brought more aggressive enemies and made it harder to get enemies to flinch.

ShadowDragon28
Sep 5, 2012, 04:07 AM
Progression based meaning that progression shouldn't be the only thing that drives the game. Progression as in progressing the story, progressing from area to area. The game has very bad replay value at the moment, because once you "progres" through it's content, everything starts to feel boring and it becomes more noticable the only reason you slightly enjoyed the experience, was because it felt like you had the basic goal of getting to the end. NO MMO can survive on that, an MMO needs the best replayibility of all genres. PSO2's lack of replayibility lies in many reasons. Not only how much of a joke the areas feel, but because everything is such a cakewalk(except for the bosses) anything that has to do with powering your character up feels REDUNDANT. The trick becomes old and PSO2 is failing where PSO1 exceeded enormously.

PSO1's replayibility is still better because of how well crafted and polished the overall game experience was. Subtle things matter

Purely subjective supposition. As "the Dude" says. That's..just like. your opinion, man.

Now. IMO.
I feel a sense of progression when I complete client orders, and when I find items needed to finish a Matter board and when I get a new story quest, I feel progression when I unlock a new area (i still havent gotten Mining Tunnels or Floating Islands unlocked yet).

I am enjoying "the journey" or overall process of the gameplay so far, and have no need to reach any "end goal". Each area is great IMO, I think the randomized areas are dynamic and keep repeat runs of that area interesting and fun.

Snowy forest and Tundra is fun and looks gorgeous IMO. Everything that IMO made PSO fun is in PSO 2 IMO. If I need a little break, I go and play other games. Just soloing in Hard as a Hunter is a great challege for me, MPA are great fun too in my view.

I do feel one flaw is that Rangers are slightly over-powered. The difficulty of certain bosses, like Snow Banther/Banshee is frustrating as hell when fighting him with only NPC-player partners, but it's a great challenge though.

My only wish is for Sakai to add more special themed and off-kilter quests like the ol' PSO Hunter's Guild quests, something like Central Fire Dome Swirl, Dream Messanger, Fake in Yellow, Seek My Master, and some mini games, like slot machines to win FUN points, or a playable Nights into Dreams mini game like the one players could obtain and download (back then it was downloaded to the GBA) but it'd be cool to play a little Nights game within PSO2, or a kind of Chao Garden or a "Mag Garden" mini game.

Alas PSO2 has only been in "official release" for 2 months. So much has been added and all of it has been pretty awesome so far IMO. I can barely keep up and still have Mines and Islands to unlock. Why, because I'm having fun killing monsters and doing client orders. I look foward to whatever may come in from now until December.

RocSage
Sep 5, 2012, 04:08 AM
Anyone is missing the point when they say, hard was easy in PSO1 as well. You're being too unspecific. When was it easy? What made it easy? What parts were easy?

If you ask me, the first step into forest in normal is allready a challenging experience. Actually every first step into a new area is a challenging experience for a couple of levels. And then there is area specific aspects that made a specific areas hard because of other things(enemy behaviour etc)

For example, ruins on normal is harder than forest on hard because of this

PSO had a good balanced increase of difficulty as you progressed, including the bosses, and you could always look to "I can level up if i have a problem getting through this area" where as PSO2 mobs are fairly easy, but ok, while the bosses are horribly balanced to the point where no matter how good you are or how much stronger you are than them they are still hard, or in some cases unbeatable using average tactics and what makes it worse is if you are having problems you don't have that "I can level a little and come back" because the level cap and the xp curve being on the poor side.

These problems all could be caused by the fact that they are balancing around sub-classes and higher level caps and +10 rares all of which are not in the game yet or are a problem to get. Or it could be that the balance is poorly balanced even with all the stuff that should have been in at launch.

Agitated_AT
Sep 5, 2012, 04:15 AM
@shadow

So your admitting that your pleasure comes from content right? Instead of just doing forest for fun, you give yourself a little goal that is the client order to give yourself a reason to "yawn" through it. An extra goal is always nice and actually quite important, but the main experience should be the main attraction.

Look at it this way. If they had removed the client orders and everything else. Made it just as basic like PSO1 with free fields only, the way they are designed in pso2 with the difficulty of pso2. Would you still be playing? In PSO1 it was almost regular to join someone and find him doing caves instead of the ruins you wanted to visit, but because it still requires your input it wasn't a yawn inducing experience. You were still dead if you stood still within a room of mobs with a team on your side. In PSO2 you can follow someone with the press of "V", go have dinner and come back finding yourself still alive and well for the most part.

Hence it was fun

ShadowDragon28
Sep 5, 2012, 04:21 AM
Yes, I would still be playing.
I've never "yawned" through any quest or free field. If there were no Client Orders or Matter boards, I'd being doing quests, and then re-run quests to hunt for whatever Units or Weapons I was seeking since I actually enjoy hunting for specific things. I don't ever "press 'v' to do whatever whatever. I play for the fun of killing monsters with a big fucking sword and other weapons.
Everything else is just side dishes to me that I enjoy as well. I like the jouney and don't need any ultimate "end goal".

I just need to get around to doing the stuff I need to get done to unlock Mining tunnels and Floating Islands. I keep getting thrashed by the Banthers at the end of Freefield Tundra LOL

Agitated_AT
Sep 5, 2012, 04:27 AM
I believe you

Kilich
Sep 5, 2012, 04:28 AM
I'm for randomized maps, because if missions had only a few predesigned maps, there would've been no reason to redo them at all.

Now I would like to able to choose out of several random maps, either before starting the run, or choosing it while you fly down to surface, like in the trailer, by altering your trajectory.
But that's minor, really.

Ezodagrom
Sep 5, 2012, 08:41 AM
Progression based meaning that progression shouldn't be the only thing that drives the game. Progression as in progressing the story, progressing from area to area. The game has very bad replay value at the moment, because once you "progres" through it's content, everything starts to feel boring and it becomes more noticable the only reason you slightly enjoyed the experience, was because it felt like you had the basic goal of getting to the end. NO MMO can survive on that, an MMO needs the best replayibility of all genres. PSO2's lack of replayibility lies in many reasons. Not only how much of a joke the areas feel, but because everything is such a cakewalk(except for the bosses) anything that has to do with powering your character up feels REDUNDANT. The trick becomes old and PSO2 is failing where PSO1 exceeded enormously.

PSO1's replayibility is still better because of how well crafted and polished the overall game experience was. Subtle things matter
I already told you this before, yeah, replayability is important, but usually it's something that comes at the end of the journey, at the end of the progression, but in the case of PSO2, we're getting a forced stop at the middle of that journey, which is why the game lacks replayability right now.
Someone who starts playing PSO2 in a few years, when the lvl cap is alot higher, that player won't be replaying lvl 40 content for long, he'll be progressing to further higher levels. When PSO2 reaches a level cap that feels more like an end-game part of the game, that's where replayability will be important.

Also, I find it strange how someone who barely reached ultimate mode in PSO can say that PSO is more replayable than PSO2.

Agitated_AT
Sep 5, 2012, 09:12 AM
You are kind of missing my point ezo. What you are stating as an issue is a progression issue for the lack of content in the middle. But this part especially proves how boring replayinf can be. Im sure you are familiar with the fastest way of grindig during that period. That would have not been the case if every lvl you gained duringthat time actually meant something. The volcano is a cakewalk from the very first moment, so is the desert.

You are talking about end game content, but how is anything fun when its all doable from a low lvl. At lvl 36 in skyland you are allready asking for new content instead of going back to mines in order to grind for skyland because as a 6th/7th area its becoming hard. Enemies are becoming agressive and your actually starting to sweat. The player here is now actually encouraged to make his character best possible with special weps, good wep upgrades and grinds, armor parts etc.

Now I am only talking about close to end content, but the fact is that the whole game is nothing like that. But what you are missing to understand from my post is, what about restarting the game with new class? Is there good replay value in that? Is the ride good enough to go through again? Because I believe that would be the case if 1 of the flaws im pointing ot would be fixed. You point out the lack of content in the middle. I say it'll get boring before you even get to that with a new class because even if it helps you grind easier with more variety, it proves exactly my point. That this game is only driven by progression and not replay value

Ryo
Sep 5, 2012, 09:45 AM
PSO had a good balanced increase of difficulty as you progressed, including the bosses, and you could always look to "I can level up if i have a problem getting through this area" where as PSO2 mobs are fairly easy, but ok, while the bosses are horribly balanced to the point where no matter how good you are or how much stronger you are than them they are still hard, or in some cases unbeatable using average tactics and what makes it worse is if you are having problems you don't have that "I can level a little and come back" because the level cap and the xp curve being on the poor side.


QFT. In PSO I felt like the challenge was steeper with regard to mobs, you had to take your time and plan your attacks if you were solo. When I solo mobs in PSO2 I trounce them without any problems (I'm speaking strictly to online mode, enemies were much stronger online than off).

Bosses, on the other hand, are much, much harder in PSO2. And while I welcome the challenge, having the level cap so low means that we're stuck once we hit level 40, and in PSO you were always able to back and increase your level until that boss was child's play.

I always really liked that aspect of PSO, and it made the grind feel much more worthwhile. Right now it feels like the cap is too low for the challenge, at least from a hunter's point of view.

Ezodagrom
Sep 5, 2012, 09:57 AM
You are kind of missing my point ezo. What you are stating as an issue is a progression issue for the lack of content in the middle. But this part especially proves how boring replayinf can be. Im sure you are familiar with the fastest way of grindig during that period. That would have not been the case if every lvl you gained duringthat time actually meant something. The volcano is a cakewalk from the very first moment, so is the desert.

You are talking about end game content, but how is anything fun when its all doable from a low lvl. At lvl 36 in skyland you are allready asking for new content instead of going back to mines in order to grind for skyland because as a 6th/7th area its becoming hard. Enemies are becoming agressive and your actually starting to sweat. The player here is now actually encouraged to make his character best possible with special weps, good wep upgrades and grinds, armor parts etc.

Now I am only talking about close to end content, but the fact is that the whole game is nothing like that. But what you are missing to understand from my post is, what about restarting the game with new class? Is there good replay value in that? Is the ride good enough to go through again? Because I believe that would be the case if 1 of the flaws im pointing ot would be fixed. You point out the lack of content in the middle. I say it'll get boring before you even get to that with a new class because even if it helps you grind easier with more variety, it proves exactly my point. That this game is only driven by progression and not replay value
Seeing as how I'm leveling 2 characters other than my main, yeah, the journey is good enough for me to go through it again and again, especially when the normal mode version of the current hard mode exclusive fields is added.

When it comes to enemies difficulty, in my opinion both enemies and mini bosses fine when soloing or in a small party (basically 1~2 players), but they don't scale well with big parties/multi parties. While there's more enemies in big parties, they die way too fast.
For actual bosses, there's a similar issue, they're fine for decent sized parties (around 3 players, I guess?), but they're a bit too much for solo, and they're not durable enough for multi-parties.

When it comes to them being more aggressive, I think it could be a balancing issue. Enemies will most likely become more aggressive in higher difficulties (it would be a really bad thing if they didn't), but if they were too aggressive at normal and hard modes, there could be no room for increases in aggressiveness in higher difficulties, maybe?

When it comes to replayability, to me PSO2 is more fun to replay than both PSO and PSU, mostly because of the random nature of the game, like the emergency codes.
PSO2 also has some things that serve as incentive for players to replay previous areas, like the client orders and the matter board. It's not much, and the game still needs alot of improvements, but the replayability is also not as bad as you make it sound.

Ulicies
Sep 5, 2012, 11:37 AM
Hm, he said he played the demo with a 360 controller. So the developers actually set up the demo with a controller for him? I wonder if they'll support their own controller program for the US version.

jooozek
Sep 5, 2012, 11:40 AM
Hm, he said he played the demo with a 360 controller. So the developers actually set up the demo with a controller for him? I wonder if they'll support their own controller program for the US version.

What do you mean? Automated support for xbox 360 gamepads was in the game since always.

gigawuts
Sep 5, 2012, 11:47 AM
Been playing hunter with a 360 controller since day 1. The default controller layout for PSO2 is dire, but with some tinkering you can get something that gives you perfect control. Something like dark souls with the ABXY buttons laid out in standard halo FPS style is perfect.

Ulicies
Sep 5, 2012, 12:02 PM
What do you mean? Automated support for xbox 360 gamepads was in the game since always.

I was thinking more along the lines of SEGA promoting their own controller program, as I heard you usually have to download third-party files to use controllers for MMO's, but I must be wrong then.

EDIT: Never mind, I just found out that SEGA automatically supports controller hookups.

gigawuts
Sep 5, 2012, 12:03 PM
Those are called drivers.

jooozek
Sep 5, 2012, 12:08 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of SEGA promoting their own controller program, as I heard you usually have to download third-party files to use controllers for MMO's, but I must be wrong then.

You are talking for when people use third party software to get controller support for the games that weren't designed with gamepads in mind. PSO2 was designed with having gamepads in mind.

RocSage
Sep 5, 2012, 12:16 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of SEGA promoting their own controller program, as I heard you usually have to download third-party files to use controllers for MMO's, but I must be wrong then.

EDIT: Never mind, I just found out that SEGA automatically supports controller hookups.

It depends on the controller and the PC game.
Some PC games don't support controllers at all, most now a-days do, but some don't support specific drivers or do support specific drivers. If a games doesn't support a controller you need a 3rd party program, like Joy2key, which some people prefer due to it allowing you to customize your controller far more than the in-game support.

On the other hand controllers have different drivers. 360 has auto-detect and install from microsoft. Some have plug and play while other need specific drivers that you have to install from a disc. Some people however do like to use PS3 or wii controllers though and in that case you need to pirate those drivers and install them as well as have a special program for them as Sony and Nintendo don't support PC use of their controllers.

For older console controllers there are multiport usb converters. I have one that allows me to use ps2, xbox, gamecube or any other usb controller. it's really nice and was only like $10 at the time.

RocSage
Sep 5, 2012, 12:22 PM
QFT. In PSO I felt like the challenge was steeper with regard to mobs, you had to take your time and plan your attacks if you were solo. When I solo mobs in PSO2 I trounce them without any problems (I'm speaking strictly to online mode, enemies were much stronger online than off).

Bosses, on the other hand, are much, much harder in PSO2. And while I welcome the challenge, having the level cap so low means that we're stuck once we hit level 40, and in PSO you were always able to back and increase your level until that boss was child's play.

I always really liked that aspect of PSO, and it made the grind feel much more worthwhile. Right now it feels like the cap is too low for the challenge, at least from a hunter's point of view.

It's not that the bosses are "harder" so much as they have instant kills and move way too much. The whole point of JA is to be able to combo but most of the boses don't allow you to get a solid single hit so how are you supposed to use JA in the first place? But more over, if I can't even get a single hit off before the mob moves it moves way too much especially since 1 hit should be like the minimum and 2 hits the average.

gigawuts
Sep 5, 2012, 12:33 PM
The problem with mobs is stun mechanics. Look at ford rans. Is anyone going to say they pose a challenge? No. Is anyone going to say they have a low amount of health? No. And why is it like this? Stun.

Automatic stun on JA should be removed IMO, and stun on players should be reduced too. Nothing is as infuriating as being stunlocked by 8 enemies that all spawned around you and attacked all at once, leaving you unable to even dodge after the first hit. Have that happen with low enough health, and you can watch your guy stumble ever so slightly until he dies.

Stun in general just makes games boring. The game stops being about tactics and starts being about inflicting stun. Yawnfest tbfh. This is part of why MPA's are so broken and boring. One player is fairly balanced as it is, but get 12 players JAing everything and lol.

And that leads me to bosses. They CAN"T be stunned like normal mobs. That's certainly good, but it in addition to that they frequently have high damage or multi-hit stunning or knock down attacks. The banther's triple stomp is just fucking ridiculous, you're left completely unable to do anything but take it after he gets a hit in.

I'm also irritated by the huge difference between having a party and going solo. In a party of even 2 having one player die in a boss fight is no big deal, but when going solo it means you've just lost the boss fight and have to get a new room. The fuck? The game shouldn't make soloing as profitable as partying, but christ reduce the penalty a bit. There's a huge difference between 4 players all dying at once to a boss and 1 player dying to a boss - the penalty shouldn't be even close to the same.

RocSage
Sep 5, 2012, 12:40 PM
The problem with mobs is stun mechanics. Look at ford rans. Is anyone going to say they pose a challenge? No. Is anyone going to say they have a low amount of health? No. And why is it like this? Stun.

Automatic stun on JA should be removed IMO, and stun on players should be reduced too. Nothing is as infuriating as being stunlocked by 8 enemies that all spawned around you and attacked all at once, leaving you unable to even dodge after the first hit. Have that happen with low enough health, and you can watch your guy stumble ever so slightly until he dies.

Stun in general just makes games boring. The game stops being about tactics and starts being about inflicting stun. Yawnfest tbfh. This is part of why MPA's are so broken and boring. One player is fairly balanced as it is, but get 12 players JAing everything and lol.

And that leads me to bosses. They CAN"T be stunned like normal mobs. That's certainly good, but it in addition to that they frequently have high damage or multi-hit stunning or knock down attacks. The banther's triple stomp is just fucking ridiculous, you're left completely unable to do anything but take it after he gets a hit in.

I'm also irritated by the huge difference between having a party and going solo. In a party of even 2 having one player die in a boss fight is no big deal, but when going solo it means you've just lost the boss fight and have to get a new room. The fuck? The game shouldn't make soloing as profitable as partying, but christ reduce the penalty a bit. There's a huge difference between 4 players all dying at once to a boss and 1 player dying to a boss - the penalty shouldn't be even close to the same.

oh on top of that block is fairly worthless as block locks you in for a set time so if a mob can get you in that time you just have to take the blocked damage rather than you dodging or moving out of the way... further block is unidirectional so if a mob gets behind you and hits you you still take that damage.

I also seems like there is no 0 damage in this game which is kinda lame.

Of course you can just be really really awesome and Just Counter every bloody thing, but for the normal player I imagine that is pretty hard to be successful more than 25% of the time.

Ezodagrom
Sep 5, 2012, 12:44 PM
I also seems like there is no 0 damage in this game which is kinda lame.
About the 0 damage thing, I'm glad it's gone, it was just a fake difficulty mechanic in the previous games.

hbmizzle10
Sep 5, 2012, 12:49 PM
You know, I didn't see it like that until you say it. I have to say that i believe your right. Correct me if i'm wrong, but it IS Saga of Japan's company. All the decisions come from them and if something is way off on updates, it IS SOJ fault for not authorizing it for us. Think about it this way. Maybe SOJ forgot about SOA in PSU and never shipped/allowed/authorized for it to be released for western servers because no one was playing in the servers for SOJ to take their time out and release it. Don't get me wrong, this is all assumptions that i'm throwing on the table so don't shoot me just for saying it. Just want someone else's opinion on this statement.

read my post on the feud between sega of japan and kalinske

Takatsuki
Sep 5, 2012, 12:55 PM
oh on top of that block is fairly worthless as block locks you in for a set time so if a mob can get you in that time you just have to take the blocked damage rather than you dodging or moving out of the way... further block is unidirectional so if a mob gets behind you and hits you you still take that damage.

I also seems like there is no 0 damage in this game which is kinda lame.

Of course you can just be really really awesome and Just Counter every bloody thing, but for the normal player I imagine that is pretty hard to be successful more than 25% of the time.

You're not supposed to Standard Guard everything. You're supposed to dodge.
Standard Guarding is for situations where you CAN'T dodge. Where there is no way you can possibly get out of the way of an attack. Now, if you're good enough, you can make use of the dodge's invincibility frames, but if you can do that, you can Just Guard which will return all damage to the enemy.

Once you get Just Guard, you should be Just Guarding everything that is Just Guardable. Of course, this can be difficult so it's usually easier just to dodge. But the point is, if you don't have Just Guard and the attack is too hard to dodge or your timing just sucks, Standard Guarding has a point.

gigawuts
Sep 5, 2012, 01:00 PM
oh on top of that block is fairly worthless as block locks you in for a set time so if a mob can get you in that time you just have to take the blocked damage rather than you dodging or moving out of the way... further block is unidirectional so if a mob gets behind you and hits you you still take that damage.

I also seems like there is no 0 damage in this game which is kinda lame.

Of course you can just be really really awesome and Just Counter every bloody thing, but for the normal player I imagine that is pretty hard to be successful more than 25% of the time.

Yeah, non-JG guard against repeat attacks is pretty irritating if you get locked into it. It spends all your PP, then since it's highly unlikely you happened to run out of PP on the last attack you proceed to take actual damage.

I like JG mechanics. They're good and rewarding. I like guard. I do not like the way content added in the mines and floating continent is blatantly meant to counter the only way hunter have to deal with stunlock combos and high damage attacks. No, dodging doesn't fix that, as the latest attacks I'm talking about have such a wide area and long attack times that even when you come out of dodging you'll be taking hits.

But that leads me to my next point - a lot of this content seems clearly designed around the other incoming classes. JG has issues with attacks registering from the wrong direction - fists have an evasion that doesn't depend on coming from the front. Flying and high-up enemies are a particular nuisance to hunters - daggers are designed around staying up high. Getting stunlocked can mean death - double sabers have a whirlwind shield thing that may halt attacks by enemies such as set sadinians, which are the ones I'm talking about when I say "eight enemies spawn and stunlock you to death."

edit: To specify, the issue doesn't seem to be that it's anti-guarding, but more that it was meant to go with classes that just aren't in yet.

Mystil
Sep 5, 2012, 01:05 PM
About the cats triple stomp.. I've actually dodged the second hit... I think I was just lucky(haha)

Darki
Sep 5, 2012, 01:06 PM
About the 0 damage thing, I'm glad it's gone, it was just a fake difficulty mechanic in the previous games.

I entirely agree with this. Maybe 0 because of achieving a great damage reduction or fighting against very weak monsters, but the ATA/EVP mechanic is completely out of place in an action-RPG. You can dodge attacks by moving, why do you need a stat that tells you that you "magically" dodged an attack just because?

gigawuts
Sep 5, 2012, 01:08 PM
That's another thing - ata/evp being merged into ability is the best thing they've done.

Or, rather, it was, until I realized that you can stunlock everything but bosses and gilnas/gilnatch at all times because of it.

Enforcer MKV
Sep 5, 2012, 01:08 PM
I entirely agree with this. Maybe 0 because of achieving a great damage reduction or fighting against very weak monsters, but the ATA/EVP mechanic is completely out of place in an action-RPG. You can dodge attacks by moving, why do you need a stat that tells you that you "magically" dodged an attack just because?

Exactly. Instead of having a 'dodge stat' you actually....*gasp* CAN DODGE!

\o/

EDIT: DAMMIT, GIGA, STOP NINJA'ING ME! :lol:

RocSage
Sep 5, 2012, 01:30 PM
You're not supposed to Standard Guard everything. You're supposed to dodge.
Standard Guarding is for situations where you CAN'T dodge. Where there is no way you can possibly get out of the way of an attack. Now, if you're good enough, you can make use of the dodge's invincibility frames, but if you can do that, you can Just Guard which will return all damage to the enemy.

Once you get Just Guard, you should be Just Guarding everything that is Just Guardable. Of course, this can be difficult so it's usually easier just to dodge. But the point is, if you don't have Just Guard and the attack is too hard to dodge or your timing just sucks, Standard Guarding has a point.

This is a problem of theory vs reality. This happens a lot in game design and quite frankly, our way of thinking. The problem in game design comes from the fact that the game mechanics generally can't be used in the way the designers are thinking about them, either due to lack of skill, lack of knowledge, or lack of being perfect. Let's say you can Just Guard everything in the game and you're that skilled that once you know when you will always hit it precisely. This would make the game incredibly easy for you save for the lack of one vital thing. You don't know precisely when to use it, and even if you do there is no guarantee that you'll be in the proper position to do so OR see the animation for the attack. Even if you were perfect, theoretically, the game design says that JG makes the game too easy to play and thus the difficulty needs to be raised, but the reality is that even a perfect person won't be able to take advantage of JG all the time and as such in those times when it can't be used the designer has increased the difficulty beyond what it should be. The thing is JG isn't a default thing and you're designing around you've now made JG necessary and eradicated the customization you're going for.

Or to give another problem of theory vs reality... We have theoretical drive units that have the ability to warp space to create an FTL drive or "Warp drive." We have the theoretical models for this thing. They are sound and if we built it, sure there would be a little tinkering that needs to be done, but we could build one with our knowledge as it is right now. We all think yay! reasonable Space travel times! There is nothing wrong with the model, but the theoretical model will never work, and it is for 1 reason alone. There isn't enough energy in the universe to make it work. If we could get enough energy it would work, but there isn't enough energy so it can never work.

Theoretically, the designers are probably thinking this stuff all balances out, but the reality is that that people just aren't that good and even if they were there are some situations where it simply doesn't work.

This is why when you are making a game you are supposed to have play testers and you are supposed to watch them and see where they are struggling, where they are finding it easy, and in general what they are doing and then adjust your models based on what you're seeing, probably even more so than what you are seeing because testers are likely to be fairly good gamers since they do it a lot.

Flame
Sep 5, 2012, 01:46 PM
Also, I find it strange how someone who barely reached ultimate mode in PSO can say that PSO is more replayable than PSO2.

I resent this remark. I logged over 1000 hours in PSO but hardly spent any time in ultimate. A game has high replay-ability when it's fun to play over and over. I would routinely beat normal - vhard and then start a new character (for whatever reason, ult mode never interested me). The game was so well designed that doing so was an absolute blast. In this game however, I can hardly stomach to play through with one character in one class. The game is so mind numbingly repetitive and the level designs are so awful and nonexistent that I may not ever make it to floating continent (I'm at tundra now, for reference). Different strokes for different folks and all that but I'd like to think I have a pretty good perception of when something isn't fun.



I entirely agree with this. Maybe 0 because of achieving a great damage reduction or fighting against very weak monsters, but the ATA/EVP mechanic is completely out of place in an action-RPG. You can dodge attacks by moving, why do you need a stat that tells you that you "magically" dodged an attack just because?

It wasn't out of place at all. Everytime you attacked an enemy, a die was cast to determine whether you missed or not based on your ata. Likewise, when an enemy attacked you their atp challenged your evp for a chance of guarding. That's the rpg in an action-rpg at play. What we have now does away with all that and skews heavily towards action. Both are fine but I find what we have now to be a tad bit too simple. Atp and Dfp are basically the only stats in the game.

The 0 damage enemies weren't contrived or forced, they were about problem solving. Physical attacks didn't work on them, you had to use magic or special attacks on weapons instead. How is that bad design?

DeathByPogs
Sep 5, 2012, 01:57 PM
Let me take a whack at this...

"I'm happy to see the western version being spoken of in high regard as opposed to the way it's usually spoken of here at PSO-World.

I'm sure that by the time it's released overseas there will be content all the way up to fighting Dark Falz. After that, I'm sure we'll still get an influx of new content like weapons and units.

As for all the egotistical whiners here at PSO-World and other gaming communities, feel free to break the ToS and continue to play on the Japanese servers just so that you can have content before the rest of us who will play the localized version, and good luck having to deal with the frustrations of updating your mods (English patch) every time they patch the game."

Wait...wha??

Ezodagrom
Sep 5, 2012, 02:17 PM
I resent this remark. I logged over 1000 hours in PSO but hardly spent any time in ultimate. A game has high replay-ability when it's fun to play over and over. I would routinely beat normal - vhard and then start a new character (for whatever reason, ult mode never interested me). The game was so well designed that doing so was an absolute blast. In this game however, I can hardly stomach to play through with one character in one class. The game is so mind numbingly repetitive and the level designs are so awful and nonexistent that I may not ever make it to floating continent (I'm at tundra now, for reference). Different strokes for different folks and all that but I'd like to think I have a pretty good perception of when something isn't fun.
If you just reached the tundra, then I guess it's not surprising that you're finding the game awfully repetitive, since you just got over the lvl 20~30 gap, a really bad part of the game for now.

Awful level design? It's not like PSO and PSU had amazing level design, in the end it was just rooms with locked doors and warps. Other than not being forced to fight enemies to unlock doors and not having warps that bring tou to some other random place of the map, the level design in PSO2 is not much different than PSO or PSU.

About what I said to Agitated_AT, I talk with him occasionally on Steam, one time I was talking to him, saying that it would be nice if the equivalent to ultimate mode in PSO2 would have differences in the areas and enemies like in PSO ultimate mode, but he didn't know about those differences in ultimate PSO, the way he talked made it looks like he never reached ultimate mode, which is why I said that it's strange that he talks about PSO replayability like that.
I mean, if PSO is that fun to replay, he would have at least reached and tried ultimate mode at least once, it's different than your case of not liking ultimate mode and just replaying the game in normal~very hard.
Honestly, I don't really like ultimate mode as well, at first it was interesting, but some parts are just cheap (*cough* megid).

gigawuts
Sep 5, 2012, 02:26 PM
I always dressed for the occasion with megid. Delsaber shield + 4 devil/resist. I loathe chance-based death like that with a passion, so if it meant giving up my god/battle or resist/freeze that's just what it meant. Fortunately, most of the time I could keep both of those on with just two resist/devil, but if I was ob hunting it was all-out 105% dark resist.

I agree that many parts of ultimate could become repetitive, and really all of PSO has always been repetitive. It comes down to if you like it or not. I find the mines to not be at all repetitive, in pso1 AND pso2. Perhaps part of that is just liking the setting, but I think more of it's down to many enemies resisting JA stun. Gilnas (I run tanmizer subdue MPA instead of the free field MPA), gilnatch, signo beat, and gadinan/gadin all pretty decently unaffected by JA stun. Legit stuns, like stun con cide and twister fall, work on all but the two gils. I think that's brilliant. Un-stunnable but reachable enemies are a must to keep an area remotely challenging. Wynderas are generally unstunnable, but probably my biggest irritance in this game. If I could make one permanent change to PSO2, it wouldn't be the removal of JA stun, it would be the removal of any enemy like wynderas from ever being added. Lasers with knockdown, flying way way up where only trick rave and rising edge can reach, and a thousand meter dash out to where they're now in a range where they only use their laser attacks. How fucking grand. edit: and that fucking cawing, KREE KREE KREE KREEEEKRREEEEEKRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE every fucking time they do a laser jesus fucking christ shut the fuck up

I'd love more levels with enemies that resist stun and have a multitude of actions like the mines, besides simply shooting you or hitting you. Thankfully the FC largely consists of reskinned caves enemies, which were from before the mines, so perhaps the mines is an example of the kind of enemies we can expect in the future.

If we keep getting more FC style levels though, man, this game will just push me away.

RocSage
Sep 5, 2012, 02:40 PM
I always dressed for the occasion with megid. Delsaber shield + 4 devil/resist. I loathe chance-based death like that with a passion, so if it meant giving up my god/battle or resist/freeze that's just what it meant. Fortunately, most of the time I could keep both of those on with just two resist/devil, but if I was ob hunting it was all-out 105% dark resist.

I agree that many parts of ultimate could become repetitive, and really all of PSO has always been repetitive. It comes down to if you like it or not. I find the mines to not be at all repetitive, in pso1 AND pso2. Perhaps part of that is just liking the setting, but I think more of it's down to many enemies resisting JA stun. Gilnas (I run tanmizer subdue MPA instead of the free field MPA), gilnatch, signo beat, and gadinan/gadin all pretty decently unaffected by JA stun. Legit stuns, like stun con cide and twister fall, work on all but the two gils. I think that's brilliant. Un-stunnable but reachable enemies are a must to keep an area remotely challenging. Wynderas are generally unstunnable, but probably my biggest irritance in this game. If I could make one permanent change to PSO2, it wouldn't be the removal of JA stun, it would be the removal of any enemy like wynderas from ever being added. Lasers with knockdown, flying way way up where only trick rave and rising edge can reach, and a thousand meter dash out to where they're now in a range where they only use their laser attacks. How fucking grand. edit: and that fucking cawing, KREE KREE KREE KREEEEKRREEEEEKRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE every fucking time they do a laser jesus fucking christ shut the fuck up

I'd love more levels with enemies that resist stun and have a multitude of actions like the mines, besides simply shooting you or hitting you. Thankfully the FC largely consists of reskinned caves enemies, which were from before the mines, so perhaps the mines is an example of the kind of enemies we can expect in the future.

If we keep getting more FC style levels though, man, this game will just push me away.

the messed up part of that 20-30 grind is that it doesn't need to be there at all. It only exists because they decided stupidly to make Free Fields all unlock at 30 for Hard Mode and they don't give you enough xp in general in hard mode due to that. HForest should be 25ish HVolcano should be 28ish, and then there should be normal tundra that should be 20ish.

What it comes down to is they tried to cheat at content and they did a really bad job of it.

Ezodagrom
Sep 5, 2012, 02:46 PM
the messed up part of that 20-30 grind is that it doesn't need to be there at all. It only exists because they decided stupidly to make Free Fields all unlock at 30 for Hard Mode and they don't give you enough xp in general in hard mode due to that. HForest should be 25ish HVolcano should be 28ish, and then there should be normal tundra that should be 20ish.

What it comes down to is they tried to cheat at content and they did a really bad job of it.
I agree, the hard mode forest, caves and even the desert free fields should be at lower lvls, even the caves quests that are unlocked at 25 should be unlocked at slightly lower lvls (like 23).

Looks like the lvl 20~30 gap will improve alot this month though, with tundra, mines and skyland getting normal mode versions, and, while they didn't say which quests would be affected, it was said that some high lvl quests would have their requirements lowered.

Mystil
Sep 5, 2012, 02:54 PM
You are kind of missing my point ezo. What you are stating as an issue is a progression issue for the lack of content in the middle. But this part especially proves how boring replayinf can be. Im sure you are familiar with the fastest way of grindig during that period. That would have not been the case if every lvl you gained duringthat time actually meant something. The volcano is a cakewalk from the very first moment, so is the desert.

You are talking about end game content, but how is anything fun when its all doable from a low lvl. At lvl 36 in skyland you are allready asking for new content instead of going back to mines in order to grind for skyland because as a 6th/7th area its becoming hard. Enemies are becoming agressive and your actually starting to sweat. The player here is now actually encouraged to make his character best possible with special weps, good wep upgrades and grinds, armor parts etc.

Now I am only talking about close to end content, but the fact is that the whole game is nothing like that. But what you are missing to understand from my post is, what about restarting the game with new class? Is there good replay value in that? Is the ride good enough to go through again? Because I believe that would be the case if 1 of the flaws im pointing ot would be fixed. You point out the lack of content in the middle. I say it'll get boring before you even get to that with a new class because even if it helps you grind easier with more variety, it proves exactly my point. That this game is only driven by progression and not replay value


You just can't accept that some people enjoy the game for what it is and don't get bored with it like you do-.-.

Darki
Sep 5, 2012, 03:10 PM
It wasn't out of place at all. Everytime you attacked an enemy, a die was cast to determine whether you missed or not based on your ata. Likewise, when an enemy attacked you their atp challenged your evp for a chance of guarding. That's the rpg in an action-rpg at play. What we have now does away with all that and skews heavily towards action. Both are fine but I find what we have now to be a tad bit too simple. Atp and Dfp are basically the only stats in the game.

That makes no sense. You think that an auto-guard feature is less simple than the need to manually dodge and/or guard from your enemy attacks, taking in mind the fact that you gotta time up the actions almost perfectly and they can be both overrided by certain types of attack? Yeah, it seems pretty "simple" to me. Letting the game decide randomly if a slash that did go through your character didn't actually touch you without imput from your part in an action game makes much more sense.

For me, ATA/EVP mechanics is something to go in WoW, RO or Pokémon, not in an action-based combat game. Having to balance between three types of defense, ability and damage stats to make your character useful is enough RPG for me, if I wanted to play a full RPG where I gotta throw the dice to decide how does my fart smell I'd rather play D&D.


The 0 damage enemies weren't contrived or forced, they were about problem solving. Physical attacks didn't work on them, you had to use magic or special attacks on weapons instead. How is that bad design?

But you're addressing two different types of mechanics here. One thing is evasion, which is dodging an attack that otherwise would hit and damage you, and a very different thing would be a natural resistance to a certain type of damage.

A monster that is, for example, melee-resistant, wouldn't get damage from melee based attacks, or would get laughable amounts of it, in any case, because the monster is supposed to do that. That for me makes much sense, in fact I'd love seeing some monsters here that got some damage resistances to make fights a bit more complex than button-mashing with your weapon of choice. In the other hand, evasion is simply that the monster didn't actually get his brains splattered on the wall, even though you saw the bullet go though its head, by the grace of God. That IS a bad design, no matter how you put it.

Now, tell me, if I can decide when to attack a monster, and I can even manually dodge attacks by going away of their range if I'm fast enough, and I can guard and/or dodge with a controlled action, why would there be any need to make the game randomly cause me to miss an attack when it did actually hit the monster? Where's the sense on that?

jooozek
Sep 5, 2012, 03:11 PM
The level 20-30 range is going to be fixed on the 12th september, will come along the new classes.

kkow
Sep 5, 2012, 03:33 PM
The 0 damage enemies weren't contrived or forced, they were about problem solving. Physical attacks didn't work on them, you had to use magic or special attacks on weapons instead. How is that bad design?

they should add more of this, those malmoths and those spinning darkers don't cut it, especially considering the imminent subclasses on the way. hell, even bringing back elemental resistances would make me happier. i always remember constantly cycling through my weapons just for the elemental attribute. this game though? 1 weapon for mobs, 1 for the boss. thanks for trying sega, these 8 weapon palettes suuuure come in handy...

and i for one miss the linearly designed levels. despite always being "the same", i could easily pick out my favorite level designs/maps. now, i can't shake the feeling of dejavu when i am in any free field. the maps aren't as random as people make it out to be nor do they make for any memorable moments. more time attackesque designs + random codes plz.

most importantly, sega needs to put more heart and soul into pso2. having played only psp2, i'm a newcomer to the series. psp2 wasn't perfect, but the game captivated me with it's unique and refreshing system and mechanics. i was staggered by the customization in character by class, gender, stats, classes, and mechanics. and these differences could be extreme enough that i could tailor to my own playstyle of my liking. currently i feel that sega is trying to hard to take the middle ground, pleasing noone. this simply isn't a matter of the lack of current content. i'm afraid it's more fundamental. there is nothing unique or worthwhile about the game anymore with the exception of combat. and it can't bode well when that combat along with the lazy level design is turning the game into zzzz mouseclicks vv zzzzz (whyamiplayingthisgameagainwhenicanplayothergamest hatareuniquetoitsgenreanddoabetterjobtoboot)

tl;dr bad game design is bad. or lazy. /rant

Squire Grooktook
Sep 5, 2012, 04:01 PM
Awful level design? It's not like PSO and PSU had amazing level design, in the end it was just rooms with locked doors and warps. Other than not being forced to fight enemies to unlock doors and not having warps that bring tou to some other random place of the map, the level design in PSO2 is not much different than PSO or PSU.

This isn't just pso. This sums up pretty much every 3d action game of this generation really. Seriously, take out all the set pieces and events in Bayonetta and what do you have? A series of rooms with enemies.

Anyway, I can tolerate all of Pso2's flaws (like difficulty, a few misc things, difficulty, difficulty, did I mention difficulty already?) because I feel that they are nothing that can't be fixed with time, support, and expansions.

The core combat is just really, really good. Sure it could use a few tweaks for perfection (IMO step advance is too sloppy and forgiving a mechanic, and needs to be nerfed or taken out entirely), but overall I think it's really dynamic and fun. After playing Pso2 I went back to an action rpg who's combat I thought was hot shit, and it just felt incredibly sloppy and loose in comparison. All Pso2's combat needs is enemies that take more advantage of its potential.

Heck, if they made an "action game" mode of Pso2, where you play solo hunter on low level ultimate difficulty and go from the forest quests all the way up to Dark Falz in one run, restarting all the way at the beginning if you die. I would play the shit out of that.

Flame
Sep 5, 2012, 04:09 PM
That makes no sense. You think that an auto-guard feature is less simple than the need to manually dodge and/or guard from your enemy attacks, taking in mind the fact that you gotta time up the actions almost perfectly and they can be both overrided by certain types of attack? Yeah, it seems pretty "simple" to me. Letting the game decide randomly if a slash that did go through your character didn't actually touch you without imput from your part in an action game makes much more sense.

For me, ATA/EVP mechanics is something to go in WoW, RO or Pokémon, not in an action-based combat game. Having to balance between three types of defense, ability and damage stats to make your character useful is enough RPG for me, if I wanted to play a full RPG where I gotta throw the dice to decide how does my fart smell I'd rather play D&D.



But you're addressing two different types of mechanics here. One thing is evasion, which is dodging an attack that otherwise would hit and damage you, and a very different thing would be a natural resistance to a certain type of damage.

A monster that is, for example, melee-resistant, wouldn't get damage from melee based attacks, or would get laughable amounts of it, in any case, because the monster is supposed to do that. That for me makes much sense, in fact I'd love seeing some monsters here that got some damage resistances to make fights a bit more complex than button-mashing with your weapon of choice. In the other hand, evasion is simply that the monster didn't actually get his brains splattered on the wall, even though you saw the bullet go though its head, by the grace of God. That IS a bad design, no matter how you put it.

Now, tell me, if I can decide when to attack a monster, and I can even manually dodge attacks by going away of their range if I'm fast enough, and I can guard and/or dodge with a controlled action, why would there be any need to make the game randomly cause me to miss an attack when it did actually hit the monster? Where's the sense on that?

I'm just saying it wasn't "stupid." It was just the kind of game it was. And I'm not saying that the gameplay is simpler, it's never been more complex. But the statistics/customization have been dumbed down substantially as a result. I might as well be playing a multiplayer god of war with how much stats actually matter(not much beyond pumping the appropriate stat on your mag and leveling up).

hbmizzle10
Sep 5, 2012, 04:14 PM
people people calm down! jeeze u guys might bite each other's heads off

Ezodagrom
Sep 5, 2012, 04:16 PM
most importantly, sega needs to put more heart and soul into pso2. having played only psp2, i'm a newcomer to the series. psp2 wasn't perfect, but the game captivated me with it's unique and refreshing system and mechanics. i was staggered by the customization in character by class, gender, stats, classes, and mechanics. and these differences could be extreme enough that i could tailor to my own playstyle of my liking. currently i feel that sega is trying to hard to take the middle ground, pleasing noone. this simply isn't a matter of the lack of current content. i'm afraid it's more fundamental. there is nothing unique or worthwhile about the game anymore with the exception of combat. and it can't bode well when that combat along with the lazy level design is turning the game into zzzz mouseclicks vv zzzzz (whyamiplayingthisgameagainwhenicanplayothergamest hatareuniquetoitsgenreanddoabetterjobtoboot)

tl;dr bad game design is bad. or lazy. /rant
PSPo2 is the result of years of improvements to PSU, when PSU was first released, the online experience in PSU was alot worse than PSO2 on release.
Give PSO2 a few years, as it gets updated, it'll become a better game.

Flame
Sep 5, 2012, 04:30 PM
Awful level design? It's not like PSO and PSU had amazing level design, in the end it was just rooms with locked doors and warps. Other than not being forced to fight enemies to unlock doors and not having warps that bring tou to some other random place of the map, the level design in PSO2 is not much different than PSO or PSU.



I'm not going to argue for PSU as I think that that's when the levels started to look rather samey and feeling monotonous. But PSO's levels were really something special. Sure, at it's base it was just about going from room to room and killing enemies to unlock the doors, but it was more about how they did it. The layouts used were full of fun landmarks and set pieces. There were traps, switches, smashers, and warps that were designed to lead you into certain situations. PSU introduced boring open areas that were more or less flat eventless plains for enemies to spawn in, a tradition that PSO2 proudly carries.

Before people inevitably start accusing me of wearing those rose tinted glasses, consider the following: PSO had long, carefully built dungeons that led you deeper into the depths of an unexplored planet full of enemies, traps, and mystery. It was a tight package that felt worth its asking price of 50$ at the time. PSO2 has tiny, randomized fields that you are expected to play numerous times over the course of 10-20 min Arks missions and client orders. When Sakai and his team made this game, its clear that they really wanted to make something that would keep people playing for years. And to their credit interrupt events, random fields, dynamic weather, and emergency events would all be amazing if there was a great stand alone game underneath all the fluff. Can you ever imagine buying PSO2 at retail for 60$? It would be daylight robbery.

Zyrusticae
Sep 5, 2012, 04:38 PM
I'm just saying it wasn't "stupid." It was just the kind of game it was. And I'm not saying that the gameplay is simpler, it's never been more complex. But the statistics/customization have been dumbed down substantially as a result. I might as well be playing a multiplayer god of war with how much stats actually matter(not much beyond pumping the appropriate stat on your mag and leveling up).
That is the point. The game is an co-op action RPG. Emphasis on the action.

If you want games where stats really matter, you could play any of the other umpteen MMORPGs on the market where stats are everything. It is incredibly fortunate for us that PSO2 is not one of those games.


I agreed with most everything in Darki's post up to this:

A monster that is, for example, melee-resistant, wouldn't get damage from melee based attacks, or would get laughable amounts of it, in any case, because the monster is supposed to do that. That for me makes much sense, in fact I'd love seeing some monsters here that got some damage resistances to make fights a bit more complex than button-mashing with your weapon of choice.
Um, no. Nonononononono. This is the wrong train of thought! Melee-resistance doesn't add anything to the fight other than frustration as you're just forced to use gunslashes because nothing else works. That's not engaging in any way.

What's better is stuff like Ga Wonda with the shield and a weak point on the rear that requires you to actually take heed of your positioning. That actually requires engagement and not just moronically switching weapons because you are pigeon-holed into a certain damage type (I feel the same way about elemental weaknesses, for that matter - I am very grateful they minimized the impact of those, though they'll probably come back in VH and Ultimate modes). There will be more stuff like that. There wasn't much of it in Sky Land, but I won't be surprised at all if the newer areas are full of mobs like that.

Flame
Sep 5, 2012, 04:43 PM
That is the point. The game is an co-op action RPG. Emphasis on the action.

If you want games where stats really matter, you could play any of the other umpteen MMORPGs on the market where stats are everything. It is incredibly fortunate for us that PSO2 is not one of those games.

the definition is loose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_rpg

I was saying that in this instance, PSO decided to retain more rpg elements than action. What is so hard to understand about that? And why shouldn't stats matter? It's an rpg as well, not a pure action game.

Squire Grooktook
Sep 5, 2012, 04:46 PM
Before people inevitably start accusing me of wearing those rose tinted glasses, consider the following: PSO had long, carefully built dungeons that led you deeper into the depths of an unexplored planet full of enemies, traps, and mystery. It was a tight package that felt worth its asking price of 50$ at the time. PSO2 has tiny, randomized fields that you are expected to play numerous times over the course of 10-20 min Arks missions and client orders. When Sakai and his team made this game, its clear that they really wanted to make something that would keep people playing for years. And to their credit interrupt events, random fields, dynamic weather, and emergency events would all be amazing if there was a great stand alone game underneath all the fluff. Can you ever imagine buying PSO2 at retail for 60$? It would be daylight robbery.

Obviously no one would buy it because the main game is unfinished and doesn't even have a final boss. Contra is one of my favorite franchises of all time. But would I buy a Contra game that ended half way through and had no final boss, escalation, or climax? Not a chance.

As for the rest of that stuff, all of that could be addressed with time. Harder difficulty levels could be patched to have more traps and a tendency toward more of the things you mentioned. Or, they could just do an expansion campaign that ditches the random level generator in favor of dedicated design.

Personally, I think the random level generator is the way to go for an action rpg like this. I think all it needs to work some magic is a few misc tweaks, and a major difficulty boost.

Until then, I'm happy with the experiences I'v had so far with Pso2.

Zyrusticae
Sep 5, 2012, 04:47 PM
the definition is loose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_rpg

I was saying that in this instance, PSO decided to retain more rpg elements than action. What is so hard to understand about that? And why shouldn't stats matter? It's an rpg as well, not a pure action game.

That's not hard to understand at all. What is harder to understand is why it should matter.

The game has enough stats. ATP, ABL, DFP is enough. You don't need more, and frankly, anything more is just shoe-horning in crap for the sake of having more crap in the game.

And really, with the way itemization in this game works, think about how much more frustration players will have to deal with when trying to affix items with even more abilities because they now have to itemize for four stats instead of three. Have fun with that!

Darki
Sep 5, 2012, 05:13 PM
Um, no. Nonononononono. This is the wrong train of thought! Melee-resistance doesn't add anything to the fight other than frustration as you're just forced to use gunslashes because nothing else works. That's not engaging in any way.

What's better is stuff like Ga Wonda with the shield and a weak point on the rear that requires you to actually take heed of your positioning. That actually requires engagement and not just moronically switching weapons because you are pigeon-holed into a certain damage type (I feel the same way about elemental weaknesses, for that matter - I am very grateful they minimized the impact of those, though they'll probably come back in VH and Ultimate modes). There will be more stuff like that. There wasn't much of it in Sky Land, but I won't be surprised at all if the newer areas are full of mobs like that.

But why is that bad at all? What I consider moronic is the fact that all monsters can be killed just by mindless button-mashing, or almost, while having some monsters capable of resisting certain sources of damage would add some more strategy. And I don't see this idea damaging, in this game in particular, considering that you can skip all monsters you want, unlike in PSU where you had to clear some mobs to go through the gates/fences. Here, it would encourage teamwork, which is a good thing for a multiplayer game, in my opinion.

Squire Grooktook
Sep 5, 2012, 05:20 PM
But why is that bad at all? What I consider moronic is the fact that all monsters can be killed just by mindless button-mashing, or almost, while having some monsters capable of resisting certain sources of damage would add some more strategy.

Pressing a button to switch weapons =/= strategy. It's just a chore.

The solution to "mindless button mashing" is again make the game harder. Have enemies that are agressive and attack and defend in unique ways that require thinking, technique, awareness, and reflexes to beat. If the enemies were that interesting to fight, it wouldn't even matter how many times they are reskinned later. Robotron 2084 has like what, 7 enemies total? And that game is fun at level 200 and over.

Flame
Sep 5, 2012, 05:24 PM
That's not hard to understand at all. What is harder to understand is why it should matter.

The game has enough stats. ATP, ABL, DFP is enough. You don't need more, and frankly, anything more is just shoe-horning in crap for the sake of having more crap in the game.

And really, with the way itemization in this game works, think about how much more frustration players will have to deal with when trying to affix items with even more abilities because they now have to itemize for four stats instead of three. Have fun with that!

What does ABL even do?

Darki
Sep 5, 2012, 05:46 PM
Pressing a button to switch weapons =/= strategy. It's just a chore.

The solution to "mindless button mashing" is again make the game harder. Have enemies that are agressive and attack and defend in unique ways that require thinking, technique, awareness, and reflexes to beat. If the enemies were that interesting to fight, it wouldn't even matter how many times they are reskinned later. Robotron 2084 has like what, 7 enemies total? And that game is fun at level 200 and over.

But that's something relative. One could say that pressing a joystick to move behind a monster to be able to hit it =/= strategy either, just a chore too. Also, making the game harder can also mean that you gotta plan what weapon you must use to beat certain enemies, or having to rely on another partner to do so. Still don't see why having monsters that you gotta let your FO parner kill because you can't, is a bad idea.

Specially when you can just skip them when soloing if it annoys you that much, in this game.

The thing is that I see in this game that it's going a similar way as PSU with the "set of double sabers w/Assault Crush spam" only that here is the "sword w/ Sonic arrow x3 endless spam". While I respect that everybody can use whatever weapon and attack they please, I would like that some monsters would allow for a more strategic approach.

Squire Grooktook
Sep 5, 2012, 06:01 PM
But that's something relative. One could say that pressing a joystick to move behind a monster to be able to hit it =/= strategy either, just a chore too.
It's not QUITE strategy (strategy is all about reading the mind of the opponent, so it shouldn't really be possible vs AI's), but it's not a chore either. It requires timing and skill. If you're going to argue that carefully positioning yourself to attack an enemies weak point is a chore, then all combat might as well be a chore.

I don't really see the two to be equivalent tbh.


Also, making the game harder can also mean that you gotta plan what weapon you must use to beat certain enemies, or having to rely on another partner to do so. Still don't see why having monsters that you gotta let your FO parner kill because you can't, is a bad idea.

I can see the value of having to plan ahead, but it's still not going to be necessary till the game starts adding dungeons that are difficult to clear.

And still, it just seems relatively unnecessary. You could implement other things that require planning and teamwork but don't make things completely unfun if you don't bring one spell.

One of the things I like about Pso2 is there is never a moment where "You gotta let your friend do it because your class can't". You can win with any play style or team. Some just have a harder time with it.

It wouldn't ruin the game or anything. I think it's just not necessary.



Specially when you can just skip them when soloing if it annoys you that much, in this game.

Actually, there are plenty of emergency codes that seal you in a room with enemies till completed. And I imagine that these will become more frequent as the game progresses. Imagine a party of 2 hunters getting locked in a square with 10 enemies that take ten years to kill with anything that isn't magic.

PrinceBrightstar
Sep 5, 2012, 06:28 PM
Screw attack just put up their own interview and gameplay. From what I didn't hear, no word on Smartphone or Vita version.

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/random-awesomeness/pax-12-phantasy-star-online-2-interview

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/random-awesomeness/pax-12-phantasy-star-online-2-gameplay-cam

Vintasticvin
Sep 5, 2012, 08:12 PM
Darki if you want strategy perhaps pso2 isnt for you.... Mindless button mashing and timed button presses reign surpreme in this game and.... JUMPING yes JUMPING!!!!

Laxedrane
Sep 5, 2012, 08:12 PM
But that's something relative. One could say that pressing a joystick to move behind a monster to be able to hit it =/= strategy either, just a chore too. Also, making the game harder can also mean that you gotta plan what weapon you must use to beat certain enemies, or having to rely on another partner to do so. Still don't see why having monsters that you gotta let your FO parner kill because you can't, is a bad idea.

Specially when you can just skip them when soloing if it annoys you that much, in this game.

The thing is that I see in this game that it's going a similar way as PSU with the "set of double sabers w/Assault Crush spam" only that here is the "sword w/ Sonic arrow x3 endless spam". While I respect that everybody can use whatever weapon and attack they please, I would like that some monsters would allow for a more strategic approach.


Maybe becuase A. it becomes frustrating when you need to get through a certain area on your main and it's fuck you for that. It's going to be fun when it comes time to kill quartz dragon on my force. Yeah I can ask for hunter in a group but it's just not my style. That's a personal preference of mine I know a game shouldn't be built around that personal preference a multi-player game. However point B the more important one.

B. Pigeon-holing. Imagine an area where everything was magic resistance. Then they release a Time-attack mode where something only drops there. Forces could only be support at this time. Most forces would be excluded. Unless they sub a melee job to melee. With the upcoming update and subs. We will see then. I prefer to be versatile but I am friends with someone who chooses to be a pure force. Doesn't plan to level anything else to sub. Just Force and techer.

This could be solved by having multiple mobs with varying strengths or weaknesses. However when you have a boss with 1 sole weakness or 1 specific resistance. It can cause people to be excluded from certain events. Right now this is a rather minor concern due to the set up of the game. But it is a sincere worry of mine in the future.

I wouldn't mind it as much if there proper disparity. Or there's a better selection of weapons. This isn't psu where every job had an alt specialty they could fall back on if their 1st one wasn't the best for the situation. Even Fortetecher could fall back on a bow. This isn't pso where ATP translated into all physical damage and the ability to equip a weapon was decided per weapon not by class.(Which a select few exceptions that are useless unless you sub that job in the future[speculation]
for photon arts.)

A force can deal better physical damage with a rod or card then a gunlash but they don't have physical photon arts.

TL;DR:

Basically what I am saying is, is that this game needs it's Bows and whips before this happens. Gunlash is a fine weapon and I don't fault people who use it, but it's no bow in the hands of a force. And it's no whip either. Hunter/fighters and force/techer need their "bow." Ranger/gunners and Force/techers need their "whip." Hunter/fighters and Ranger/Gunners need a weapon not yet conceived to bridge the gap for T damage.

Vintasticvin
Sep 5, 2012, 08:33 PM
Maybe becuase A. it becomes frustrating when you need to get through a certain area on your main and it's fuck you for that. It's going to be fun when it comes time to kill quartz dragon on my force. Yeah I can ask for hunter in a group but it's just not my style. That's a personal preference of mine I know a game shouldn't be built around that personal preference a multi-player game. However point B the more important one.

B. Pigeon-holing. Imagine an area where everything was magic resistance. Then they release a Time-attack mode where something only drops there. Forces could only be support at this time. Most forces would be excluded. Unless they sub a melee job to melee. With the upcoming update and subs. We will see then. I prefer to be versatile but I am friends with someone who chooses to be a pure force. Doesn't plan to level anything else to sub. Just Force and techer.

This could be solved by having multiple mobs with varying strengths or weaknesses. However when you have a boss with 1 sole weakness or 1 specific resistance. It can cause people to be excluded from certain events. Right now this is a rather minor concern due to the set up of the game. But it is a sincere worry of mine in the future.

I wouldn't mind it as much if there proper disparity. Or there's a better selection of weapons. This isn't psu where every job had an alt specialty they could fall back on if their 1st one wasn't the best for the situation. Even Fortetecher could fall back on a bow. This isn't pso where ATP translated into all physical damage and the ability to equip a weapon was decided per weapon not by class.(Which a select few exceptions that are useless unless you sub that job in the future[speculation]
for photon arts.)

A force can deal better physical damage with a rod or card then a gunlash but they don't have physical photon arts.

TL;DR:

Basically what I am saying is, is that this game needs it's Bows and whips before this happens. Gunlash is a fine weapon and I don't fault people who use it, but it's no bow in the hands of a force. And it's no whip either. Hunter/fighters and force/techer need their "bow." Ranger/gunners and Force/techers need their "whip." Hunter/fighters and Ranger/Gunners need a weapon not yet conceived to bridge the gap for T damage.

Way too long almost didnt read but was a strong valid counter to Darki's cries for strategy.

Squire Grooktook
Sep 5, 2012, 08:46 PM
Darki if you want strategy perhaps pso2 isnt for you.... Mindless button mashing and timed button presses reign surpreme in this game and.... JUMPING yes JUMPING!!!!

As I said, no such thing as true strategy in pve. Strategy is all about reading the mind of your opponent, and AI'S don't have minds. They have random number generators and patterns. Any strategy goes out the window when you realize what the pattern is, and start abusing it.

Also, while I do think the difficulty of the game needs to be cranked up, I also think people are WAY over exaggerating how bad it is. The game isn't easy. It's not hard either. It's just kinda normal action-adventure level challenge.

There are parts in the game (yes, even against mobs, rare though it may be) where if you don't play good, or if you make a mistake, you can die really quickly. It's just that these moments are kind of few and far between. And even if you do die, there's not a whole lot of penalty for it. So you just replay the level, or get better weapons. And then you ace it.

It's not Contra, but it ain't no Kirby game either.

Darki
Sep 5, 2012, 09:22 PM
It's not QUITE strategy (strategy is all about reading the mind of the opponent, so it shouldn't really be possible vs AI's), but it's not a chore either. It requires timing and skill. If you're going to argue that carefully positioning yourself to attack an enemies weak point is a chore, then all combat might as well be a chore.

I don't really see the two to be equivalent tbh.

Well, I think it's a matter of perspective. I still don't see why needing to move to a different position qualifies as strategy, but needing to switch to a different weapon doesn't.


I can see the value of having to plan ahead, but it's still not going to be necessary till the game starts adding dungeons that are difficult to clear.

And still, it just seems relatively unnecessary. You could implement other things that require planning and teamwork but don't make things completely unfun if you don't bring one spell.

One of the things I like about Pso2 is there is never a moment where "You gotta let your friend do it because your class can't". You can win with any play style or team. Some just have a harder time with it.

It wouldn't ruin the game or anything. I think it's just not necessary.

Isn't unfun, or less unfun, then, having to move like a headless chiken to manage to separate a pair of Ga Wondas that by chance clipped their shields and bodies (as they're so huge compared to their target, you, it has happened to me many times) so you can barely touch them without being blocked? Or simply to target Ol Micdas as a hunter, considering that half your attacks will be out of the exact height range to hit the weak spot, and even the ones that work will stagger the monster into a motion that won't allow you to JA it to death?

I still don't see why having to change weapons or rely on a partner can be more "unfun" than that, honestly. In the other hand, with the coming of subclasses, the fact that we will have a huge amount of hybrid combinations would make these classes shine in situations where two playstyles would benefit.

Also, if we are talking about what's neccesary we might as well uninstall the game and use our precious time to do something constructive. I never intended to bring "neccessities" to this discussion.


Actually, there are plenty of emergency codes that seal you in a room with enemies till completed. And I imagine that these will become more frequent as the game progresses. Imagine a party of 2 hunters getting locked in a square with 10 enemies that take ten years to kill with anything that isn't magic.

Don't insult your own intellingence... So, are you telling me that the game developers can't make those emergency codes not to spawn that sort of monsters as required targets? The game is even able to detect who's at either side of the barriers and spawn monsters accordingly. Why wouldn't they even be able to detect the class of those players at either side, and spawn monsters with suitable resistances? It's like you drown in your own glass of water. =/


Darki if you want strategy perhaps pso2 isnt for you.... Mindless button mashing and timed button presses reign surpreme in this game and.... JUMPING yes JUMPING!!!!

Vintasticvin, if you don't want strategy perharps PSO2 isn't for you either... Planning for good equipement with the correct affixes while levelling your mag in an efficient way and having to exploit the use of enemy weakpoints and some field strategy to maximize the enemy spawn and PS bursts in MPAs might prove too difficult for your strategic-less sense of enjoyment.

In any case, I didn't really ask your opinion about what games are better suited for me, thanks. I'll keep bringing my "cries for strategy" (interesting word choice, btw) or better said, suggestions and ideas, because discussions on these matters enrich my view of the game. Your post, on the other hand, doesn't do really much.


TL;DR:

Basically what I am saying is, is that this game needs it's Bows and whips before this happens. Gunlash is a fine weapon and I don't fault people who use it, but it's no bow in the hands of a force. And it's no whip either. Hunter/fighters and force/techer need their "bow." Ranger/gunners and Force/techers need their "whip." Hunter/fighters and Ranger/Gunners need a weapon not yet conceived to bridge the gap for T damage.

As I addressed to Squire Grooktook, I notice that you pose questions and problems without even considering easy answers and solutions to them, which seems to me that many of you simply strike the idea with the preconceived intention to disqualify them even before giving it a though.

As I said, for those "problems" there can be found solutions and workarounds that would even benefit the game more, from my point of view. With the code issue, I gave my answer already. In case of bosses, I see your point, yet that could be turned completely around: What if bosses actually had different weakpoints depending on the source of damage? There, you'd have another solution. For normal monsters along the map, this game already eliminated the need to wipe fixed spawns to clear rooms or fences, so that's not even an issue anymore.

I agree with most of your post, though. Perharps this game is not yet complex enough to such mechanics, but I still think that the game would benefit from them, specially after the coming of subclasses. It would add an optional amount of teamwork requirement that could be enjoyable for some while could be avoided by others.

Vintasticvin
Sep 5, 2012, 09:33 PM
Lol Darki the only strategy I use is team coordination and its easy sauce for me since Im a card Force xD Minimal strategy when needed is how I roll Darki boy.

Squire Grooktook
Sep 5, 2012, 09:35 PM
Well, I think it's a matter of perspective. I still don't see why needing to move to a different position wualifies as strategy, but needing to switch to a different weapon doesn't.
I didn't say that the former qualified as a strategy. It doesn't really, but it requires technique and timing. Which I would not qualify as a chore (assuming it's done right).

And I can understand utilizing different weapons to deal with different situations, but I feel it should be because of weapons core properties like attack speed, range, ect. And not a stat like element. Just my opinion.



Isn't unfun, or less unfun, then, having to move like a headless chiken to manage to separate a pair of Ga Wondas that by chance clipped their shields and bodies (as they're so huge compared to their target, you, it has happened to me many times) so you can barely touch them without being blocked? Or simply to target Ol Micdas as a hunter, considering that half your attacks will be out of the exact height range to hit the weak spot, and even the ones that work will stagger the monster into a motion that won't allow you to JA it to death?
I'm not saying these enemies are perfect. But I'd still prefer the concept of an enemy that takes timing and technique to properly attack over just dumping a stat on them so you can't kill them.


Also, if we are talking about what's neccesary we might as well uninstall the game and use our precious time to do something constructive. I never intended to bring "neccessities" to this discussion.

But fun is always necessary. What I meant is that I think there are better ways of accomplishing team work, planning, and challenge without resorting to this sort of thing. If you like the idea, that's cool. It just doesn't appeal to me.

To each his own. Who knows, maybe I'd end up enjoying it if it gets implemented. We'll see.


Don't insult your own intellingence... So, are you telling me that the game developers can't make those emergency codes not to spawn that sort of monsters as required targets? The game is even able to detect who's at either side of the barriers and spawn monsters accordingly. Why wouldn't they even be able to detect the class of those players at either side, and spawn monsters with suitable resistances?

True.

Darki
Sep 5, 2012, 09:46 PM
Lol Darki the only strategy I use is team coordination and its easy sauce for me since Im a card Force xD Minimal strategy when needed is how I roll Darki boy.

And since when this thread is about how you roll? I could argue with you that team coordination would require much more strategy (as you're dealing with a group of humans, which means that you might be dealing with a competent group or a group of assholes) than simply needing to switch to a weapon to hit a certain monster.

But well, whatever rolls you, vinta-boy.


I didn't say that the former qualified as a strategy. It doesn't really, but it requires technique and timing. Which I would not qualify as a chore (assuming it's done right).

And I can understand utilizing different weapons to deal with different situations, but I feel it should be because of weapons core properties like attack speed, range, ect. And not a stat like element. Just my opinion.

I understand that, but again, isn't a "stat-like element" the fact that you can't damage through the shield of a Ga Wonda (even with magical, lightning attacks, like Gizonde, that is not only supposed to be magic, but electricity, something that shouldn't be blockable by a petty shield)? Why couldn't there be monsters that are completely armored, for example, and that you gotta kill using techs?

Conceptually, the possibilities are limitless. Also, I never said that the sole reason should be damage-source resistances, there could very well be others like what you mentioned, speed, range and such.


I'm not saying these enemies are perfect. But I'd still prefer the concept of an enemy that takes timing and technique to properly attack over just dumping a stat on them so you can't kill them.

I never disagreed with you on that, it's just that I don't see why couldn't we include in the definition of "timing and technique" the fact that you gotta use a different approach to kill it, in the form of a different source of damage.

I feel that this game encourages the "step + sonic arrow x3" mindset, and while I respect people doing that for their own choices (hell, I LOVE to spam step + other spin, so sue me), I feel that we don't use the nice arsenal we have in each class well enough. I remember those PSU TA videos of AFs doing Assault Crush spamfest to achieve the best times, and even if someone might like that, I believe they didn't include 20+ weapon types with 4+ PAs each to achieve that end.


But fun is always necessary. What I meant is that I think there are better ways of accomplishing team work, planning, and challenge without resorting to this sort of thing. If you like the idea, that's cool. It just doesn't appeal to me.

To each his own. Who knows, maybe I'd end up enjoying it if it gets implemented. We'll see.

That's why I put emphasis on the fact that this sort of mechanic could be easily avoidable by people who doesn't enjoy it, in the same manner that you can do a "boss rush" by avoiding everything in the map and just run to the boss. I would certainly enjoy this if it was dealt in a decent way, specially because I do enjoy hybrid classes more than experts. In PSU they did an attemp but they fucked it up badly as melee damage was utterly overpowered through most of the game's lifespan, and when they fixed that somehow the damage had been done.

Sometimes I feel a bit missunderstood, because when I propose such ideas I never intend to "censor" other gameplays, as many here do with their "HOW I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD PLAY" threads. I think this game could find many ways to attract people with different mindsets by offering many gameplay twists, but always trying not to interfere with other mechanics. I don't believe my suggestion would do so, honestly.

Vintasticvin
Sep 5, 2012, 10:00 PM
Darki: Last I checked This thread was about how well spoken international pso2 was reviewed then as always a pso2 thread gets derailed and winds up turning into how this game lacks strategy and A.I. needing to be jacked up.

Ps sometimes you get a team sometimes you get a bunch of Wannabe Rambos.

ShadowDragon28
Sep 5, 2012, 10:00 PM
wow, this thread veered waaay off... I like that the demo of PSO2 is seemingly giving people a positive impression.

I think this game is gradually getting better and better, but I really enjoying it so far. I LOVE the design of Desert and Tundra and are fun as hell re-playing them when I do client orders.

gigawuts
Sep 5, 2012, 10:05 PM
I like the desert and tundra, plus the mines. I just wish most areas weren't so cookie-cutter-y. What makes the mines so nice is the tranmizer subdue level DOES have variety with the conveyor belts, and plenty of it. Even the same map parts have different column and box placements, and button + force field locations too, making it actually different.

I just wish the maps were larger, large rooms were put to better use instead of just spreading out the same number of enemies, and each area had an interesting room that stands out. Give me those things, plus interesting enemies with semi-complex actions, and I think I'll be set for a long long time.

Darki
Sep 5, 2012, 10:07 PM
I'd like to see MANY maps. PSU got a crapload of them and I think it was a cool thing, we're exploring different planets after all. I just hope they put more than 2 maps per planet.

Zelda01
Sep 6, 2012, 02:43 AM
Translation: Key points



You don't know what you are talking about.thank you for translating it better for me. BUT I know what I am taking about and there nothing we can do about it. BUT you are just another sega fan boy in nature so you have the right to defend there honor and that very Noble of you. its just a dam shame this is happening. for now I keep my mouth shut dam shame really :sleepy:

JCGamer
Sep 6, 2012, 02:50 AM
yay its finally planing it for the North America Im very glad this is happening I just love to see how the translation and voice acting will come to play XD

Angelo
Sep 6, 2012, 02:57 AM
I'd like to see MANY maps. PSU got a crapload of them and I think it was a cool thing, we're exploring different planets after all. I just hope they put more than 2 maps per planet.

I hope so too.

By the time the series got to Portable 2: Infinity it never felt stale, there were so many awesome maps.

JCGamer
Sep 8, 2012, 05:12 AM
hey everyone take a look at this video from mmohut.com covering pso2 on PAX :D enjoy :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCTEgv-DL60

Blackheart521
Sep 8, 2012, 05:24 AM
hey everyone take a look at this video from mmohut.com covering pso2 on PAX :D enjoy :D
[SPOILER-BOX]PAX Prime 2012 - Phantasy Star Online 2 Commentary - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCTEgv-DL60)[/SPOILER-BOX]

Wow, they said they thought it was possibly best in show at PAX, says something, maybe PSO2 could become mainstream in NA/EU rather than having our little niche following that we have now. ^^

JCGamer
Sep 8, 2012, 05:29 AM
Wow, they said they thought it was possibly best in show at PAX, says something, maybe PSO2 could become mainstream in NA/EU rather than having our little niche following that we have now. ^^LMAO so true indeed Blackheart :D

Takatsuki
Sep 8, 2012, 05:44 AM
hey everyone take a look at this video from mmohut.com covering pso2 on PAX :D enjoy :D
PAX Prime 2012 - Phantasy Star Online 2 Commentary - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCTEgv-DL60)

Wow... they made so many errors. Not in their gameplay, but in their descriptions. They really should have done a little fact-checking first.

Sp-24
Sep 8, 2012, 05:58 AM
I wonder, did Vol Dragon die without a cutscene in Alpha and Closed Beta, too?

C-Shan
Sep 10, 2012, 05:00 AM
Late message, but the one thing that I can see (and has been reported on) is a double edged sword.

They're practically remaking the Forest area for the first area in PSO2.
Wolves, Hildebears, And even a dragon underground?

There's nostalgia, and then there's trying to sell the same game, but prettier.

I like the nostalgia part of it, but I still own my copy of PSO, and I'm pretty sure my ******** BB account is still around. If I wanted to play PSO Forest, I'd do that.

*edit*
Huh, I didn't know that name was auto-censored. Ehh, you all know what's supposed to be in the asterisks.

jooozek
Sep 10, 2012, 05:12 AM
The game isn't "just prettier", if you actually compared the game side by side with PSO you would go back on those words really fast. I don't see the problem you see with having forest and wolves with hildebears, the game isn't PSO v2 HD, it's PSO2. And surprisingly some people would actually want to revisit Ragol even after they've played through PSO2's Forest. And personally, after playing PSO2 I would never be able to go back to the flegmatic and not-as-much-skill-dependent system of the first PSO. I don't know how many feel the same but my expectations are that the majority.

Squire Grooktook
Sep 10, 2012, 05:13 AM
I hate how he spent all that time talking about you can change your body type and accessorize. But then didn't even mention that you can completely mold your characters face as well. I mean yeah, I guess it's implied. But still, they should have at least thrown it out there. The face is the most important aspect of any character imo.

Gama
Sep 10, 2012, 05:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaY71eWdyk8&feature=relmfu

gigawuts
Sep 10, 2012, 12:22 PM
Late message, but the one thing that I can see (and has been reported on) is a double edged sword.

They're practically remaking the Forest area for the first area in PSO2.
Wolves, Hildebears, And even a dragon underground?

There's nostalgia, and then there's trying to sell the same game, but prettier.

I like the nostalgia part of it, but I still own my copy of PSO, and I'm pretty sure my ******** BB account is still around. If I wanted to play PSO Forest, I'd do that.

*edit*
Huh, I didn't know that name was auto-censored. Ehh, you all know what's supposed to be in the asterisks.

I also noticed that they did all the forest of PSO1. I think it's a good way to sell it, honestly. Not playing on nostalgia (which it still is) so much as showing people what can be done to the same ideas now.

And, let's be entirely honest. They tried a different game after PSO and it crashed and burned. I think going back to PSO might be a good idea if they want many people to even look at PS again.

Crimson Exile
Sep 10, 2012, 12:36 PM
Wow, they said they thought it was possibly best in show at PAX, says something, maybe PSO2 could become mainstream in NA/EU rather than having our little niche following that we have now. ^^
I would love this game to become mainstream. Servers and content would last longer I think.

Akaimizu
Sep 10, 2012, 01:06 PM
True, it would be pretty nice. Most of the videos were all done by people who aren't too familiar with most Phantasy Star Releases. They all seem to be people who may have played 1 version of PSO at one time, and never since then.

You can tell it when they describe everything as a *first time* function which actually first appeared prior to PSO2. Nothing against them, it was really more a sign of how much people may be familiar or not with Phantasy Star. It kind of surprises me, sometimes, how niche it is.

Laxedrane
Sep 10, 2012, 02:34 PM
I would love this game to become mainstream. Servers and content would last longer I think.

Not only that but sega much more likely to keep the international servers 1. Safer and 2. Consistently updated within a reasonable time of the jp servers.

The second one would need a pretty big response, like, International servers competing with JP servers in population.

Also any MMO that lasts as long as PSU I wouldn't call "Crashed and burned." Definitely not a successful as PSO but how many MMOs don't even make it to a year?

Look at Final Fantasy XIV. They had to make the game Free to play just to get people to put up with the game while Square got their act together. If it was a lesser company that would be a filing for bankruptcy level of screwing up.

Akaimizu
Sep 11, 2012, 02:12 AM
Yes, a 6 year run is hardly anything that would be considered a bad run. PSU actually outlived a good number of MMOs that actually did crash and burn.

Now if the online game had maybe a 1-2 year run, then yes, it would crash and burn. Stuff like Tabula Rasa. Even with Richard Garriott originally behind the project, you couldn't get much bigger a name. However, the launch was bereft of problems, and it never recovered from that. Shame, as it become a pretty solid title with a lot going for it, but too little too late.

To tell the truth, PSU outlived every other Sci-fi Based MMO with the exception of the 1 behemoth. Eve Online. (By far, the most successful Sci-fi MMO of all time) Though Star Trek Online may eventually surpass to become the 2nd most successful one. That MMO was about to crash and burn early, actually, but it was saved by its change to the Free-to-Play model. So technically, that means PSU would establish itself as one of the most successful Sci-fi related MMOs with a Paid Subscription service. Competing only with PSO itself and EVE.

FFXIV survives only one the Square label. Even though Richard Garriott was more instrumental as one of the founding fathers of videogame RPGs in the first place, and considered the founding father of MMOs; he doesn't pull the same kind of fervent fans willing to give even a struggling effort such a big chance to recover. Squaresoft has some real diehard fans, moreso than the guy directly responsible for the game genres in the first place.

gigawuts
Sep 11, 2012, 02:15 AM
Fair enough, but I'd say PSU only stayed up that long because it's all Sega had in the MMO department and they had to stick with it. It supposedly became a husk of itself after the duping issues, and never bounced back. I wouldn't know, I couldn't manage more than 2 months on it.

Akaimizu
Sep 11, 2012, 02:20 AM
Well, the duping stuff never really killed the 360 public. It was moreso the severe drop in updates and support of the Western version that eventually waned on the public. Though all of the versions suffered a quick initial drop in the public with its drip-feed of content from the beginning. The reviewers also jumped all over that issue as well. Yep. Pay full price for the game, jump in the subscription, and then you can only fight to the first dragon boss with the other planets locked away? Not a great start.

Tabula Rasa was way beyond PSU for updates, content, and features, but it was on the PC; and the PC community with their large amounts of MMO choices are way more unkind to MMOs if they don't launch relatively well or can't keep up with the joneses for content. Thus my initial statement, at PSU launch, about how the PC community will likely not stick with the game if SEGA keeps the same kind of content model they had back with PSO. The competition is too high.

So I will say that it was the console port that allowed PSU to last as long as it did. Ultimately, making it one of the only prominent ORPGs to run on a console was a huge reason for lasting. In Japan, where they did have updates up the wazoo, there were more reasons.

gigawuts
Sep 11, 2012, 02:29 AM
Yeah, that's why I jumped ship. I seem to recall going back some time later and finding new areas, but realizing I was trudging in a bright reskin of an older dark level that never even made sense itself.

I honestly feel PSU would have had more success if it wasn't sold as a PS title. It abandoned a LOT of the core of PSO, and while it was similar it was still different enough that it alienated many PSO fans. But, then, they kept the PS name for the same reason they've brought in the PSO name again - sales. Well, that's not entirely fair, PSO2 really is a combination of the best of both, so they have indeed learned lessons from both games.

I agree though, if they launch PSO2 in the english community like they did in Japan it's going to sink fast.

Akaimizu
Sep 11, 2012, 02:33 AM
Well. Actually, PSO2 is a culmination of features spread throughout PSO, PSU, PSZ, and PSP2(i). So yeah, they learned quite a few lessons.

The only issue is that for the Western Market, SEGA is often in a habit of letting franchises just sit unused for a while before bringing them back up. Unless they're Sonic or something.
The PS name does kind of suffer as a way to get sales, and thus I really think it deserves the name because it still is a Phantasy Star title with enough PS content to consider it in the realm. Remember how different PSO was from the traditional Phantasy Star games. But due to the (we practically wait until a whole generation of gamers who never heard of it to release our next game) syndrome, the use of the name only grabs the attention of the die-hard fans, which wane with each stretch of time without a playable Western official PS game. This is precisely why Nintendo is more successful with their franchises. They don't let too much time go by without releasing another. Yeah, it's milking the license, but they wont be guilty of time-alienation which SEGA is a master of, over here. An issue which actually hurt Saturn and Dreamcast sales enough to be a major factor why they didn't stay in hardware nor be recognized as the First Party powerhouse they were.

Considering the time lapse between official PSO games and PSU. It's almost like starting over again with getting attention for the game. They're repeating it (though with a little less time) with PSU to PSO2. Especially when someone decided to kill new purchases of any US copy of PSP2. So by the time the Vita came around, nobody can even attempt to get PSP2 and enjoy it. And with PSZ being limited to only WEP or open networks, there's always something hindering people's official online for Phantasy Star over here. So again, it's a figurative blackout.

As for Japan, I think they've done a pretty decent job. It hasn't been out officially that long and already, they've been doing a good bit of support. Not to mention, they've been quite verbal about the support, which is a very very important thing. They're keeping the anticipation strong, even since launch, because they keep the players always aware of cool updates coming, and that they come soon. We did not get that for some time, in PSU. A classic mistake by a company that wasn't observant enough of the MMO structure. Or at least, a classic mistake for not remembering to give ALL regions that same level of support and somehow expecting that miraculously, another region will do well without it. Alas, it was a major disconnect that should never ever happen. Yet they do it. Almost makes me wish I was part of the planning committee, because I honestly can't believe that I would know that much more about it than they did.

gigawuts
Sep 11, 2012, 02:34 AM
Yeah I always forget the handheld games exist.

Akaimizu
Sep 11, 2012, 02:54 AM
One should never forget they exist. They're the only games you can play, and even do local multiplayer, when servers go belly up. For us Westerners, the only official playable Phantasy Star action RPGs are the portable ones. And sadly, even those are limited and in limited numbers. One needs to find the DS cart, or the PSP UMDs now as digital options are nil.

But back on topic. My last statement really also is my concern for PSO2 in the states. The idea that they starve the country out for PS action before the game releases to the point you wonder who will be around to jump right into PSO2 when it eventually comes around. Effective Blackouts, like the ones they do time and time again, never help the franchise, so I wonder why they continue to do so. Alas, like all other good questions I may have about this, I doubt I would ever get an answer. No matter how many times I may call their result before it happens.

Will they also make the mistake (a 2nd time - first time with PSP2 taken off the store) to not release a Vita version for those people highly starved for a game of its ilk on the system, for a guaranteed flock of users? It remains to be seen.

NightfallG
Sep 11, 2012, 03:33 AM
The game can be best of show and be GOTY every year and it won't mean anything until Sega tells INCA to go fuck themselves. They should just suck it up and server-side as much as possible, that is if they want the game to not be an absolute flop.

jooozek
Sep 11, 2012, 04:22 AM
I would rage hard if they made the combat server-side. It would be an unplayable mess for the majority i.e. people who don't live close to the servers. Just guard would be more like Clairvoyance guard lol

C-Shan
Sep 11, 2012, 05:13 AM
I also noticed that they did all the forest of PSO1. I think it's a good way to sell it, honestly. Not playing on nostalgia (which it still is) so much as showing people what can be done to the same ideas now.

And, let's be entirely honest. They tried a different game after PSO and it crashed and burned. I think going back to PSO might be a good idea if they want many people to even look at PS again.

You have a point there.

Maybe I'm looking for the wrong things in PSO2.
The combat looks good. Better than PSU's and PSU made PSO's better (albeit slightly).

The stuff that "make a PSO game" for me are the music and how the plot is presented.
From what I've heard, this game's got music down pat. Plot... looks like they're going the PSP2 routes. Which I never was a fan of.
I loved the "Read it if you want to" method of PSO (similarly found in Metroid Prime).

The areas, while Nostalgia is nice, I'd prefer if they're entirely new. We aren't on Ragol anymore. I don't like to think that "every planet evolved the same way on the surface except US", it just cheapens the universe.
Maybe as DLC areas, or an homage to put in later.
But they've put in a LOT of the stuff that made PSO different from PSU (ie. if you want Nade Launchers you better be RA, instead of just grind my way until I can equip S rank on my preferred class)
I have my HUcaseal back, and she looks reasonably close to her PSO counterpart. The game's free to play, and the devs REALLY focused on player feedback during the beta.
I'll be okay if they let loose a little.

I'd absolutely love to be surprised and find another entirely new boss mechanic ala Vol Opt in PSO2, instead of the usual De Rol Reskin.

Ezodagrom
Sep 11, 2012, 08:05 AM
Plot... looks like they're going the PSP2 routes. Which I never was a fan of.
I loved the "Read it if you want to" method of PSO (similarly found in Metroid Prime).
Plot, the only forced thing related to the plot is the tutorial chapter 0 mission.
Afterwards everything related to the story is completely optional. The player receives a matterboard, as he completes the matterboard goals (which include finding certain equipment from certain enemies, or finding specific event tablets in certain missions), the player unlocks new story chapters.
The event tablets are a bit like PSO "read it if you want to" method, event tablets appear in missions that have single party blocks, if you want you can click them for a short cutscene that may give background about the pso2 lore, or you can just ignore the event tablet completely.


The areas, while Nostalgia is nice, I'd prefer if they're entirely new. We aren't on Ragol anymore. I don't like to think that "every planet evolved the same way on the surface except US", it just cheapens the universe.
Maybe as DLC areas, or an homage to put in later.
While some areas are a little bit based on PSO areas, others are completely unique.


I'd absolutely love to be surprised and find another entirely new boss mechanic ala Vol Opt in PSO2, instead of the usual De Rol Reskin.
If you haven't been keeping up with the japanese PSO2 updates, here's the trailer for the underground tunnels update, at the end of the trailer it shows a boss that feels more unique than the other bosses in the game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvZsvDPEEY4