In memory of my Saber

[Angelic Fae]

I'm gonna start out by saying I'm not a full time PSO2 player (I'd rather play the European version when it comes out) but I seem to be the only person that seems to care about this.

I WANT A NORMAL SABER!

I know what you're thinking "but hey use a gun Saber"
Granted gun Sabers do what a Saber should do (hurt things) but there is only ONE problem. They're two handed!? I'm a force so I like to set things on fire with my respective techs BUT I hate using silly sticks to fight, we force have the right to cut things up too! So I see a Saber, a gun Saber to be exact and it doubles up as a gun, useless as we force simply blow up things that fly or are otherwise out of reach. This means you can't equip techs to the alternative slots for quickness. Now I know you can just put techs onto hot keys but these are really limited for the players using controller and Iv'e grew up with phantasy star using a controller and lets face an extra 2 tech slots come in handy. Other than techs a guard would have been better again, anything but a gun. I mean really I use blades to cut not shoot. If I wanted to shoot things I'd have chose a ranger and took a rifle. The point is I want a one handed Saber or at least one that guards! I hate to say it but psu had this down better a Saber 'n' Techmag was perfect.

A normal Saber is like the iconic weapon of phantasy star as far as I know bring it back! Where are all the good weapons!

[Jay6]

PSO's saber was just a boring old light saber. You couldn't even have a secondary weapon equipped with the saber in that game. PSO2 went back to those roots, pretty much, but improved upon it by making Saber/gun one thing. And honestly, it's nothing to really complain about. Just use a sword instead if you don't like the gunslash.

[Laxedrane]

Your facing two problems.

1.) Even if they released saber as a strand alone weapon class. It would still not be able to equip techs to it's normal pallet. Just the way the game is designed. Whatever PAs associated with that weapon would be the only thing equipable.

2.) Dual wielding is not a feature in this game like it was in PSU. So you would never be able to off hand a tech weapon for quick spells.


Saber at this point would be extremely redundant on it's own.

[blace]

In PSU/PSP the only variant of the saber that did anything useful were twin sabers. Increased damage output and being able to block to boot.

In my time in PSO, I never used a saber due to how limited most were, one target only, while swords and partisans were able to hit up to five. It's also somewhat practical in PSO2 to use gunslashes as all classes can switch to a weapon that can provide damage as well act as a back up weapon.

Also, this is PSO2. It may share the same name as PSO, but it is vastly different and more action oriented.

[Skyly HUmar]

Also, this is PSO2. It may share the same name as PSO, but it is vastly different and more action oriented.

This

The name PSO2 was just used to draw in fans of pso. Sakai himself said that they were originally planning to call the game PSU2. I love the game, and trust me I hate psu alot, but this game is still psu ish and there are many... many things i could rant on about, BUT all in all its a pretty good game, and its still under development. There may be a normal saber later on with a crazy wand-like gimick.

(seriously though, when i heard that the original name was PSU2 i was like "OOOOOOOOhhh so thats why this and that is kinda a sep down from PSO standards).

[Angelic Fae]

Well good point(s) but firstly Force can't use any other slashy weapons such as Swords and secondly you can cast techs with all weapons (hot keys) though they won't be as strong but simple weapons are being thrown out for silly weapons that make me feel like I'm playing kingdom hearts. What's wrong with blocking? Well if we have gun Sabers why not...Shield Sabers its like Gun saber without the pointlessness for Tech users. Though this isn't just about Sabers but we've lost other iconic weapons too. I know it's early days yet and there are more weapons coming but I think all the classic weapons are dead. It wouldn't be so bad if Force could use any good weapons may as well do runs unarmed. If I can I'm just gonna use Daggers at least they're still here.

[Skyly HUmar]

Actually, one of those step downs that i mentioned is the weapon variety per class. Unless you use something like the soul eater (which i recommend for you, its a partisan, usible by any class, and it boosts tech attack) that can be equipped by any class, you can only use 2-3 weps + gunslash depending on what class you pick.

EDIT: hopefully subclasses will be beneficial twards weapon variety

[blace]

The gun part of the gunslash isn't pointless for Forces, it's a great PP recovery tool. If you run low on PP, use the gun and pull off 4-9 shots while in the air. It does wonders to PP recovery.

For daggers to be used, you need to be Hunter level 30 and switch to Fighter to use them. The update is this week so be prepare for that.

[Angelic Fae]

aww hell so even daggers are locked, the Force are getting shafted in terms of good weapons. Unarmed runs anyone? at least we have a dodge... psp2 had it the best any class can use any weapon so long as they have the class points for it.

One step forward two steps back.

[NoiseHERO]

I miss sabers but I really really like what they did with gunslash, in my opinion they just need more weapon designs, and new PAs(all the weapons could use some new PAs, hopefully there's a lot this wednesday.)

But yeah I semi-disagree with the "This is PSO2 not PSO" thing. Which IS something I'd normally use when people say "OMG BRING THIS BACK FROM PSO" when we have a different version of the same thing that works better in PSO2. But in this case the saber represents the basic one-handed sword which is like, a big deal in terms of a starting weapon for ANY RPG game, ESPECIALLY fantasy ones.

We're sci-fi fantasy so ours would be the saber AND the handgun, from the looks of ALL of our past games. I guess this time in general, they wanted to try something new when they merged them together. OR they wanted to match PSU' dual weilding which made single saber and single handgun far more useful in PSU. So yeah, just handgun and saber alone, I don't think it could've kept up with this game, at least not the way they functioned in past games... I dunno. I DO with they made a better effort to make them more of a stable weapon for the other two classes though..

"This is PSO2, not PSO" is what I tell nostalgia freaks, OP just wanted saber back in general. Though I still think GS is fine.

[Halvaard]

Now I know you can just put techs onto hot keys but these are really limited for the players using controller

This is just not true, it's slower for controller but defiantly not useless.

When I solo bosses on Force, when my PP gets low, I switch to Gunslash and start firing. Gunslash is much faster than Talis and allows you to keep moving.

Tekker's wand attacks sound like they'll be much closer to what you want.

[pikachief]

Wait so you want to be able to use a saber and cast spells too? Just switch weapons. Sure it's not the same but its not that slow at all. Switching to your rod/talis from your saber is pretty quick.

And yea even if you had a normal saber, you would still be experiencing the same problem :/ Switching to a side-arm like PSU from a saber is only one button press more than switching to another weapon anyways, right?

[terrell707]

If anything, they could just make a super rare gunslash that can't switch to gun mode but has strong S-ATK or something as a trade off. But idk if even that would quench people's thirst for a true saber.

[Yunfa]

If you guys didn't know yet, a +10 Soul Eater has 175 T-ATK. AND YOU CAN BLOCK! *Gasp* So many boring topics are plaguing forums due to the boredom of people waiting the next big update.

[Flame]

(seriously though, when i heard that the original name was PSU2 i was like "OOOOOOOOhhh so thats why this and that is kinda a sep down from PSO standards).

source please!

[Ezodagrom]

This

The name PSO2 was just used to draw in fans of pso. Sakai himself said that they were originally planning to call the game PSU2. I love the game, and trust me I hate psu alot, but this game is still psu ish and there are many... many things i could rant on about, BUT all in all its a pretty good game, and its still under development. There may be a normal saber later on with a crazy wand-like gimick.

(seriously though, when i heard that the original name was PSU2 i was like "OOOOOOOOhhh so thats why this and that is kinda a sep down from PSO standards).
Actually, the original name wasn't PSU2, at the beginning they weren't sure if it would be PSO2 or PSU2:
http://bumped.org/psublog/phantasy-star-producer-satoshi-sakai-addresses-his-foreign-fans/


PSO2 started development back in 2008, back then they were discussing whether the title should be PSO2 or PSU2.

[Ayures]

I, for one, love the the things. I'm planning on doing some sort of subclass to maximize its potential. IDGAF if I'm gonna be gimped with an often-subpar weapon.

PewPewSlash 4 lyfe.

[serenade]

what rock said.

i'm REALLY hoping we see some new partisan PAs and maybe some more gunslash PAs that cater to each class (hu and ra).

i just want a partisan PA that puts them on par damage-wise with a sword. then again i'm biased. partisans are my favorite weapon in game because of their speed and mobility.

[gigawuts]

If anything, they could just make a super rare gunslash that can't switch to gun mode but has strong S-ATK or something as a trade off. But idk if even that would quench people's thirst for a true saber.

It might not be unable to switch with the current system, but it could just have 1 r-atk on it.

And that does sound good, but as it is the non-snowflake 9* gunslash is pretty good.

[ShadowDragon28]

Im fine with Gunslash. I'd just want a high star gs that's based on the lavis cannon that shots violet energy shots like The lavis cannon's special attack did back on PSO.

[Zorafim]

There are quite a few things I don't agree with you on. Here, let me see if I can get this point by point.


I'm gonna start out by saying I'm not a full time PSO2 player (I'd rather play the European version when it comes out)

You'll be waiting nine months to play! Everything's awesome now! Just spend a few days adjusting, and you won't even be able to tell the difference!



but I seem to be the only person that seems to care about this.
I WANT A NORMAL SABER!
I know what you're thinking "but hey use a gun Saber"

Yes, basically. Almost every weapon introduced into PSO2 is drastically different than their PSU counterparts. The only exception I can think of is sword. And for the most part, I have to say that I much prefer the PSO2 variant much more than the PSU variant. This includes sabers. I'll see if I can elaborate on this last point later.


Granted gun Sabers do what a Saber should do (hurt things) but there is only ONE problem. They're two handed!?

The weapon system is back to PSO's version of non-dualwielding. Everything's two handed.



I'm a force so I like to set things on fire with my respective techs BUT I hate using silly sticks to fight, we force have the right to cut things up too!

Frankly, I'd sooner bring a strong staff to a fight than a short sword, all things considered. Barring live combat, staffs are also really useful as a force. I've spent almost as much time as a force getting into a group of mobs and smacking them down with my staff as I have at a range. And they're only as silly as the model you have equipped!


So I see a Saber, a gun Saber to be exact and it doubles up as a gun, useless as we force simply blow up things that fly or are otherwise out of reach.

As has been mentioned before, not useless. In the slightest. Forces are now balanced by their high burst, and quickly depleted resource. Getting their PP back is a huge issue, and the gun component of the gunsword really helps this part of force's gameplay.
And if you're going to use that argument, you could also say that hitting things with the saber is also useless. You have circular AoE spells. If shooting things is useless because you have ranged spells, why aren't melee attacks useless when you have point blank spells?


This means you can't equip techs to the alternative slots for quickness. Now I know you can just put techs onto hot keys but these are really limited for the players using controller and Iv'e grew up with phantasy star using a controller and lets face an extra 2 tech slots come in handy.

Yes, hotkeys. I don't know how anyone could play as a force without them, in any PS. I'm surprised you haven't gotten used to it when playing PSO. It's not just forces that need to use them; they're pretty much the only way hunters and rangers can heal now. And barring that, it's really fast and easy to switch weapons, which means it's quick to switch from your saber to a teching weapon.


Other than techs a guard would have been better again, anything but a gun.

Getting hunter to 40, I can probably count the times I've used the guard on my fingers. Of those, half were to see what they look like. And half that number was hitting shift by accident. Considering how useful guns always are in online PSs (Why do they always have to be so useful?), I'd rather have that on my saber than a guard. Especially when I'm the class with the best dodge in the game.


I mean really I use blades to cut not shoot. If I wanted to shoot things I'd have chose a ranger and took a rifle.

You want to cut. Why not switch to hunter and take a partisan?


The point is I want a one handed Saber or at least one that guards! I hate to say it but psu had this down better a Saber 'n' Techmag was perfect.

It looked neat. But, the only time I ever switched to a hybrid weapon was to use the weapon it was paired with. In fact... The only time I switched to a hybrid weapon was my hunter's saber/gun combo, to use the gun. If I could use rifles, I would have just used those.


A normal Saber is like the iconic weapon of phantasy star as far as I know bring it back! Where are all the good weapons!

You're right. The saber was the most iconic weapon. It was the iconic noob weapon which you replaced as soon as you could, or kept because it was the best striking weapon your class could equip.
But if you just can't stand the spinning bladed pole, the giant plasma sword, or the blades on wires... I guess you'll have to be disappointed with the laser sword that can shoot at the flick of your wrist.


aww hell so even daggers are locked, the Force are getting shafted in terms of good weapons.

Hunters are getting shafted in terms of good spells. I'll trade you twin daggers for light elemental techs.

Next time you argue against something... Could you organize your thoughts a bit clearer? It was a bit of a pain to pick them apart, and what I came up with looks ugly. Maybe sort them, and make a clear argument for your case, so that a rebuttal can be just as clear, and everyone can gaze at pretty, clear and precise arguments instead of having to pick them apart from a giant post with not much content in it (Sorry, that was the best I could do).

And one last thing... Why are you known as Angelic Fae if you're not so Angelic? Why aren't you Not-So-Angelic Fae? Or just Fae? I'm just going to call you Fae. I feel uncomfortable calling you Not-So-Angelic Angelic Fae. It just seems weird.

[gigawuts]

Force is "shafted" in terms of weapons, but has exclusive access to every spell in the game.

Alright.

[dablacksephiroth]

The only Saber I even liked in PSO1 was Lavis Cannon.. but only on Dreamcast. Once it hit Gamecube, the special attack's accuracy nerf and the sound effect change just made me sit it in storage to collect dust. Plus Orotiagito did it better.



And um... not sure if anyone's mentioned due to my skimming, but.. is no one mentioning subclasses possibility in allowing this person their wishes to equip other weapons other than the "All can equip this" category?

[youcantcatchtheblue]

Did I just hear someone say PSU > PSO2? lol ^^

But back on topic, to answer the OP here's a couple of things you can try:

1. putting techs on the hotbar really isn't so bad, On the default controller set up, you can use the d-pad to scroll through the hotbar and L-trigger to select. Just put the techs you use the most near each other and tapping left or right a couple of times lets you use at least 3 types of techs fairly quickly and easily. Once you get used to it I'm sure it will be a lot better than the 2-slots you want on the weapon for techs.

2. wait for next month's Sub-Classes update. We don't know much about the system yet, but it may radically change the way everything plays because it may potentially mean you can cast techs with any weapon.

3. This particular Gunslash (http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%83%AC%E3%82%A4%E3%83%87%E3%83%A5%E3% 83%97%E3%83%AB) has +50 T-ATK so it's meant for use with Forces. it might not seem like much, but for now it's pretty good and fairly cheap in the shops. In the future I'm sure more weapons will come out with a T-ATK bonus in them.

[gigawuts]

The only Saber I even liked in PSO1 was Lavis Cannon.. but only on Dreamcast. Once it hit Gamecube, the special attack's accuracy nerf and the sound effect change just made me sit it in storage to collect dust. Plus Orotiagito did it better.



And um... not sure if anyone's mentioned due to my skimming, but.. is no one mentioning subclasses possibility in allowing this person their wishes to equip other weapons other than the "All can equip this" category?

I think we're (thankfully) past the point where people bring it up because we really don't have much confirmation for how subclasses will work.

You'll almost definitely get subclass weapon access, it's just common sense, but then this is Sega so you know.

[Spellbinder]

I think we're (thankfully) past the point where people bring it up because we really don't have much confirmation for how subclasses will work.

You'll almost definitely get subclass weapon access, it's just common sense, but then this is Sega so you know.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't have subclass weapon access.

1.) It'll help keep your 'main' class "unique" if you can buy that excuse.

2.) I can't see SEGA letting Hunter use a rod. :-P

[Zorafim]

You're right. Rods are strong enough on a force. Hunters using them would be insane.

[Gama]

i think theres enought fan service in the game already. lets see new things kay?

[gigawuts]

Mic stand, bouquet rifle, duel gaze, and space tuna.

All claims that we'll access skill trees but not weapons are invalid.

[Skyly HUmar]

Actually, the original name wasn't PSU2, at the beginning they weren't sure if it would be PSO2 or PSU2:
http://bumped.org/psublog/phantasy-star-producer-satoshi-sakai-addresses-his-foreign-fans/

Thanks for the source :P. Im still sticking to my it was going to be called PSU2 though, concidering how sakai did make psu and all. Imo its only called pso2 to bring back anyone who disliked psu, and they did a pretty good job with the game (I love this game, but ill admit i would not have gotten it most likely if it was called psu2, i hate that game so much that i wouldnt have even given this one a chance. Glad i did though lol).

[Angelic Fae]

"You'll be waiting nine months to play! Everything's awesome now! Just spend a few days adjusting, and you won't even be able to tell the difference!"

I would rather wait 9 months than spoil the game for myself when it acctually comes out in english, is that a crime?


"Yes, basically. Almost every weapon introduced into PSO2 is drastically different than their PSU counterparts. The only exception I can think of is sword. And for the most part, I have to say that I much prefer the PSO2 variant much more than the PSU variant. This includes sabers. I'll see if I can elaborate on this last point later."

Every weapon is drastically different...you mean wand, staff, spears, those pathetic card things not forgetting the new ones double Sabers, twin daggers, Knuckles, twin mechguns? oh yeah and Swords like you mentioned? So yeah drastically different.


"The weapon system is back to PSO's version of non-dualwielding. Everything's two handed."

This is the main issue. I'm glad you caught on to that.


"Frankly, I'd sooner bring a strong staff to a fight than a short sword, all things considered. Barring live combat, staffs are also really useful as a force. I've spent almost as much time as a force getting into a group of mobs and smacking them down with my staff as I have at a range. And they're only as silly as the model you have equipped!"

What part if I don't wanna fight with a stick was hard to understand?


"As has been mentioned before, not useless. In the slightest. Forces are now balanced by their high burst, and quickly depleted resource. Getting their PP back is a huge issue, and the gun component of the gunsword really helps this part of force's gameplay.
And if you're going to use that argument, you could also say that hitting things with the saber is also useless. You have circular AoE spells. If shooting things is useless because you have ranged spells, why aren't melee attacks useless when you have point blank spells?"

for PP recovery is about the only valid point you have gotta give it to ya BUT PP recovers so fast anyway your better playing in an offencive - defencive phase pattern to make sure you know whats going on everywhere on the field as a force you are the one who has to control the flow of battle and make sure everything is where it should be no just charge in. Plus melee on a force isn't useless because you can't cast at melee range(not to be confused with gi tech range) an enemy will just slap you and thats you're tech ruined.


"Yes, hotkeys. I don't know how anyone could play as a force without them, in any PS. I'm surprised you haven't gotten used to it when playing PSO. It's not just forces that need to use them; they're pretty much the only way hunters and rangers can heal now. And barring that, it's really fast and easy to switch weapons, which means it's quick to switch from your saber to a teching weapon. "

I do use hot keys o_O? There just isn't enough buttons on the controller to assign as many as I'd like.

"Getting hunter to 40, I can probably count the times I've used the guard on my fingers. Of those, half were to see what they look like. And half that number was hitting shift by accident. Considering how useful guns always are in online PSs (Why do they always have to be so useful?), I'd rather have that on my saber than a guard. Especially when I'm the class with the best dodge in the game."

If you're a hunter who doesn't guard u must die all the time, I'm not a hunter and I've used guard well into the hundreds.

"You want to cut. Why not switch to hunter and take a partisan? "

I wan't to cut...and blow things up.

"It looked neat. But, the only time I ever switched to a hybrid weapon was to use the weapon it was paired with. In fact... The only time I switched to a hybrid weapon was my hunter's saber/gun combo, to use the gun. If I could use rifles, I would have just used those. "

I've already went over this SABER/TECHMAG!

"You're right. The saber was the most iconic weapon. It was the iconic noob weapon which you replaced as soon as you could, or kept because it was the best striking weapon your class could equip.
But if you just can't stand the spinning bladed pole, the giant plasma sword, or the blades on wires... I guess you'll have to be disappointed with the laser sword that can shoot at the flick of your wrist. "

Iconic noob? so why do we see about half the players on psu sporting an "apocalypse" hybrid?

"Hunters are getting shafted in terms of good spells. I'll trade you twin daggers for light elemental techs."

Hunters are for the tanks or frontline players they don't need techs.
PS I would take that trade anyday light ain't all that great (cept resta)

"Next time you argue against something... Could you organize your thoughts a bit clearer? It was a bit of a pain to pick them apart, and what I came up with looks ugly. Maybe sort them, and make a clear argument for your case, so that a rebuttal can be just as clear, and everyone can gaze at pretty, clear and precise arguments instead of having to pick them apart from a giant post with not much content in it (Sorry, that was the best I could do)."

What you said right back at ya.

"And one last thing... Why are you known as Angelic Fae if you're not so Angelic? Why aren't you Not-So-Angelic Fae? Or just Fae? I'm just going to call you Fae. I feel uncomfortable calling you Not-So-Angelic Angelic Fae. It just seems weird."

Is this a personal attack? You don't like my name? I don't see what this has to do with this thread at all?

On a final thought subclasses may end up solving this problem (for the most part) but for now there are no interesting weapons for a FORCE to use so Try to stay on topic and stop wasting time with personal attacks, geez I'm taking a pop at a weapon not your kid!

[Darki]

Sometimes I wonder why is it so bad to pick a gunslash and just forget about the fact that it switches into a gun. You can even pretend that you're "turning on the lightsaber" if you happen to hit the button by accident. There are many types of gunslashes in the game, some of them styled more towards the shape of a saber (and some others to the shape of a gun, of course). You can even put PAs that rely soley on melee attacks. Is not like you're forced to use all abilities of all weapons.

Personally, I miss the dual wielding system, but considering how I disliked sabers since PSO ep.I&II, I'd rather have gunslashes.

[Sephirah]

TLDR

Sorry bro.

[Ezodagrom]

Every weapon is drastically different...you mean wand, staff, spears, those pathetic card things not forgetting the new ones double Sabers, twin daggers, Knuckles, twin mechguns? oh yeah and Swords like you mentioned? So yeah drastically different.
By drastically different he means that each of the weapons types work in a completely different way than they used to in previews games.


What part if I don't wanna fight with a stick was hard to understand?
Don't want to use a rod? Deal with it until lvl 30, switch to techer, and use a wand. Looks like wands are going to be more oriented for close combat than rods.
Don't want to use a weapon that looks like a magic styled weapon? Hope SEGA releases a wand that looks like a saber then.
You can't get everything that you want, that's just how life goes.

[Sephirah]

By drastically different he means that each of the weapons types work in a completely different way than they used to in previews games.


Don't want to use a rod? Deal with it until lvl 30, switch to techer, and use a wand. Looks like wands are going to be more oriented for close combat than rods.
Don't want to use a weapon that looks like a magic styled weapon? Hope SEGA releases a wand that looks like a saber then.
You can't get everything that you want, that's just how life goes.

You could always do what I'm going to do, which is be a HU/TE once subclasses come out. It's gonna be a HOOT! :P (I know that's terrible, I couldn't help myself though.)

[Angelic Fae]

It's early days yet so who knows Sega may give a half decent weapon for Force, it just sucks that the only slashy weapon for a Force had to be a Gun Saber which lets face it is Sega's way of keeping the Saber / Handgun hybrid so can we see another classic hybrid make its debut? personally I don't think so.

"I miss the dual wielding system" Darki I couldn't have said it better myself thats my entire argument in a single line.

[Ezodagrom]

It's early days yet so who knows Sega may give a half decent weapon for Force
You may not like them, but rods and talis are great force weapons, saying that forces don't have decent weapons is just not right.

[Spellbinder]

Mic stand, bouquet rifle, duel gaze, and space tuna.

All claims that we'll access skill trees but not weapons are invalid.

Joke weapons are an exception, not the rule. In any case, we'll have to wait and see.

[Slidikins]

"Getting hunter to 40, I can probably count the times I've used the guard on my fingers. Of those, half were to see what they look like. And half that number was hitting shift by accident. Considering how useful guns always are in online PSs (Why do they always have to be so useful?), I'd rather have that on my saber than a guard. Especially when I'm the class with the best dodge in the game."

If you're a hunter who doesn't guard u must die all the time, I'm not a hunter and I've used guard well into the hundreds.Curious... how do you Guard without being a Hunter?

[Darki]

It's early days yet so who knows Sega may give a half decent weapon for Force, it just sucks that the only slashy weapon for a Force had to be a Gun Saber which lets face it is Sega's way of keeping the Saber / Handgun hybrid so can we see another classic hybrid make its debut? personally I don't think so.

So, you're seriouly saying that, in your opinion, Force needs a melee weapon, because the class doesn't have a half decent weapon?

Lol this brings back memories. It's like when they decided to give double sabers to Guntechers in PSU to make them stronger, instead of better PA caps and weapon ranks. Probably one of the most retarded ideas that they could have come up with for that game. No, plz. Seriously.

Maybe you should just chill out and wait for subclasses and try subbing a Hunter or a Fighter. But expecting a pure tech-oriented class to have strong melee weapons when current classes have 3~4 weapons tops, is kinda stupid.


"I miss the dual wielding system" Darki I couldn't have said it better myself thats my entire argument in a single line.

I though your argument was that you don't like the fact that the "saber" in this game has the entirely optional ability to shoot bullets, that you can entirely avoid if you dislike it that much.

Is not like they're not going to bring a crapton of old sabers, crossbows and handguns refitted to be gunslashes anyways. We're talking about a PS game, nostalgia tards would cry rivers and long for the old days of 56k bandwidth if they couldn't have their Lavis Cannons and DB Sabers.

[Zorafim]

Stuff

You... You're incredibly defensive. Are you alright? I mean, I just wanted to show that there's a counterargument for every point you've made, and that you should think more clearly about a subject before taking such a strong stance on it. The closest thing to an insult I threw out was that your name is Angelic Fae, and that your title is Not so Angelic. That's like calling myself the fishman, and having my profile picture be a dog. Someone's going to mention it eventually. If you can't take what I said without getting defensive, I'll feel sorry for when you receive real criticism.

You also act like you have a firm grasp of the game, but fully admit you haven't played much. Then you shoot down the thoughts of someone who's capped every class as a personal attack. You even assume they play poorly because they don't see the game the same way you do. Really, do more research. You'll find the game's really well balanced despite you losing out on more than half the weapon types in PSU.

And one point I wanted to make that you didn't seem to get... Classes are really basic right now. You don't get access to cool slashing weapons, because you aren't the proper class to have them. If you want to slash and blow things up... Either take turns like everyone else is, or wait a month for sub classes. Which really isn't an issue since you're waiting for the english release anyway.

[Angelic Fae]

"Lol this brings back memories. It's like when they decided to give double sabers to Guntechers in PSU to make them stronger, instead of better PA caps and weapon ranks. Probably one of the most retarded ideas that they could have come up with for that game. No, plz. Seriously."

Currently all Force get to hit things with are sticks and cards and of course the less than trusty Gun Saber. You seem to think these are half decent weapons? are you kidding me? since when is hitting a dragon with a card suitable? Also if your using guntechers as an example here's one FORTE-TECHER had a respectable weapon selection and great PA levels which shows that it can be done without being "retarded".

"I though your argument was that you don't like the fact that the "saber" in this game has the entirely optional ability to shoot bullets, that you can entirely avoid if you dislike it that much."

Read the thread title. The Gun Saber is useless true but as others say we don't HAVE to use it. The argument is that Force have no good weapons and to be honest I'd still rather use a Gun Saber than a Stick.

I miss the Duel wield system because it allowed the customisation to build your character towards what they need most whether it be a Gun and a Saber or not.

[Angelic Fae]

You... You're incredibly defensive.

Is it wrong to feel passionate about things you love? (plus every other person whom has posted on this thread disagree's with me)
and yes you're right I do act as though I know more than I do but I know enough to know what's missing and you're also right that more is to come and mabye the subclasses will solve this problem, so yes you have a solid point mabye I should respect others points of views more...BUT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MY NAME DAMMIT! It's a contradiction and a deliberate one! hmph!

[Ezodagrom]

Currently all Force get to hit things with are sticks and cards and of course the less than trusty Gun Saber. You seem to think these are half decent weapons? are you kidding me? since when is hitting a dragon with a card suitable?
What? Force is the magic class, the main way for Forces to attack is with technics, not melee. Just because you don't like Rods and Talis doesn't mean they're not decent, they're perfectly fine for their purpose, which is to use technics.

If you want to use slashing weapons, Force is not the class for you, Hunter or Fighter are the classes suitable for that.

[gigawuts]

Joke weapons are an exception, not the rule. In any case, we'll have to wait and see.

But they still exist. So now we'll need to remove the active skills and gears on your subclass's skill tree.

Now what the fuck is the point of a subclass?

That's why people don't talk about it anymore. It's all a bunch of unknowns.

As for dual wielding, I desperately do not miss it. I prefer my weapons to pick one thing and then be good at them. Specialization is king.

edit: Talis is a fantastic strategic weapon, rods are great too, gunslash is boss on all classes but it's especially good on hunter. If you're finding failure with these things then the problem does not lie with the weapons, many of us are using them to great success already. As a FOcast.

[Darki]

Currently all Force get to hit things with are sticks and cards and of course the less than trusty Gun Saber. You seem to think these are half decent weapons? are you kidding me? since when is hitting a dragon with a card suitable? Also if your using guntechers as an example here's one FORTE-TECHER had a respectable weapon selection and great PA levels which shows that it can be done without being "retarded".

And why the flying fuck would you believe that a Force should smack a Vol Dragon to death? Have you ever heard of these things called "technics"? Yes, I think these are not only half, but 100% decent FORCE weapons. Of course there's a missunderstanding, if you wanna kill a dragon hitting it you should play a Hunter.

Also, you mention Fortetecher, but in PSU that class' non-techer weapon selection and power was ridiculously useless compared to just using techs. I could actually believe that killing a Vol Dragon with a Gunslash on a Force in PSO2 is much easier and possible than... I dunno, Killing a Dulk Fakis with a whip or a bow? Hell, I've killed a couple Vol Dragons and dozens of Rockbears with a Gunslash as my Force, out of boredom.


Read the thread title. The Gun Saber is useless true but as others say we don't HAVE to use it. The argument is that Force have no good weapons and to be honest I'd still rather use a Gun Saber than a Stick.

No, the argument is that Force has exactly the weapons it should have for the role it was designed for. Rod, Talis and even Gunslash are nothing close to useless, and the fact that you consider them bad weapons because you intend to go melee with a Force is as ridiculous as if you pretended to return your car after trying it because it doesn't fly like a jet. Maybe you should have gotten a plane instead.

The more this thread advances the more amazed I am for the retardness of it.


I miss the Duel wield system because it allowed the customisation to build your character towards what they need most whether it be a Gun and a Saber or not.

But the double wielding system in this case is perfectly substituted by the Gunslash. A Gunslash does exactly everything than a Saber/Handgun did before. So there's no real argument over its performance here.


As for dual wielding, I desperately do not miss it. I prefer my weapons to pick one thing and then be good at them. Specialization is king.
.

Not everybody likes to specialize in a single thing. In fact I consider specialized classes the most boring role you can choose in any RPG. And considering that we will be able to create hybrid combinations with the sub-class system, dual-wielding would be a feature that would make those classes to reach their full potential. If you're choosing to play a class that performs two roles at once, why wouldn't you want to have weapons that allowed for that?

I just hope they at least introduce some weapons with mixed stats that allow for doing stuff like casting techs without needing to switch to a rod (I mean, with stats good enough that you can use it to perform mixed combos with decent damage), same with rods with good melee damage.

[Jakosifer]

Every time I see a word that beings with "S" and ends with "r", I think sister. I thought OP had a kawaii imoutochan. Not some Saber fetish. D<

[gigawuts]

And why the flying fuck would you believe that a Force should smack a Vol Dragon to death? Have you ever heard of these things called "technics"? Yes, I think these are not only half, but 100% decent FORCE weapons. Of course there's a missunderstanding, if you wanna kill a dragon hitting it you should play a Hunter.

Also, you mention Fortetecher, but in PSU that class' non-techer weapon selection and power was ridiculously useless compared to just using techs. I could actually believe that killing a Vol Dragon with a Gunslash on a Force in PSO2 is much easier and possible than... I dunno, Killing a Dulk Fakis with a whip or a bow? Hell, I've killed a couple Vol Dragons and dozens of Rockbears with a Gunslash as my Force, out of boredom.



No, the argument is that Force has exactly the weapons it should have for the role it was designed for. Rod, Talis and even Gunslash are nothing close to useless, and the fact that you consider them bad weapons because you intend to go melee with a Force is as ridiculous as if you pretended to return your car after trying it because it doesn't fly like a jet. Maybe you should have gotten a plane instead.

The more this thread advances the more amazed I am for the retardness of it.



But the double wielding system in this case is perfectly substituted by the Gunslash. A Gunslash does exactly everything than a Saber/Handgun did before. So there's no real argument over its performance here.



Not everybody likes to specialize in a single thing. In fact I consider specialized classes the most boring role you can choose in any RPG. And considering that we will be able to create hybrid combinations with the sub-class system, dual-wielding would be a feature that would make those classes to reach their full potential. If you're choosing to play a class that performs two roles at once, why wouldn't you want to have weapons that allowed for that?

I just hope they at least introduce some weapons with mixed stats that allow for doing stuff like casting techs without needing to switch to a rod (I mean, with stats good enough that you can use it to perform mixed combos with decent damage), same with rods with good melee damage.

I said weapons, not classes. Generalization can be important, but a weapon that is good at neither one thing or another is not a good weapon. Is a gunslash's gun component good on a ranger? Is its casting abilities good on a force? No and no. The only thing that makes it good on a hunter is the combination of step attack and its sheer number of hits, letting it apply status effects better than any other hunter weapon available right now.

When it comes to classes, specialization is only as good as the support you have. A pure long range class by itself is not very good. A pure close range class by itself is also not very good. This is where subclasses come in and really tie things together.

There is a gunslash with a grindable t-atk stat, I don't remember its name though. There's also the soul eater, which has a grindable t-atk stat, which will probably be used more often after subclasses go live (even if only for a bit, because a weapon that's bad at everything is worse than a weapon that's good at one thing).

edit: And why wouldn't I want weapons that let me dual wield efficiently? Because that's an oxymoron. I'm never more than three button presses away from a weapon that's better at the role I want, and if it really comes down to three button presses then the weapon I'm holding, regardless of its stat bonuses, will do the job I need well enough to keep me from dying so I can have time to press three buttons.

[Darki]

But still, my point is that you can do stuff like chaining techs on your melee combos. A melee weapon that allowed you for decent tech damage would be very interesting, specially for people who plays for more reasons than performance.

one of the perks of being a HU/FO will be the fact that you can cast techs in the middle of a sword combo, for example. ¿why would it be "bad at everything" to have weapons that could balance the damage output of both striking and tech attacks, so the combination of both in a combo would be as good as any other specialized weapon on a single damage output?

[gigawuts]

So let me get this straight.

You want a weapon class that is competitive with two different specializing weapons, and good at both of those roles.

Exactly why would you invest money or time into those two weapons when one thing does it just as well?

[Darki]

So let me get this straight.

You want a weapon class that is competitive with two different specializing weapons, and good at both of those roles.

I want a weapon that will allow me to maintain a similar dps using both damage outputs as a hybrid, as an expert class would do with a specialized weapon.


Exactly why would you invest money or time into those two weapons when one thing does it just as well?

Fun?

[Galax]

So let me get this straight.

You want a weapon class that is competitive with two different specializing weapons, and good at both of those roles.

Exactly why would you invest money or time into those two weapons when one thing does it just as well?

I thought that was the point. You make do with one, then the other, then you get both in one and go off rockin' some shit with your slashslashrafoie.

[Darki]

I thought that was the point. You make do with one, then the other, then you get both in one and go off rockin' some shit with your slashslashrafoie.

Exactly.

if a Hunter/Fighter would make out the max of melee weapons, and a Force/Techer the max out of tech weapons, shouldn't be there weapons that would bring a Hunter/Force to the same level?

[Sephirah]

I want a weapon that will allow me to maintain a similar dps using both damage outputs as a hybrid, as an expert class would do with a specialized weapon.



Exactly.

if a Hunter/Fighter would make out the max of melee weapons, and a Force/Techer the max out of tech weapons, shouldn't be there weapons that would bring a Hunter/Force to the same level?

As someone who rolled a Newman with the intention of being a Hunter/Techer, and an avid player of hybrid classes, I have to disagree with your statement. If a hybrid class can dish out equal DPS to a DPS specialized class, then there is no point to being the specialized class, when they could be a hybrid which has much more versatility. To put it in the simplest of terms, the jack of all trades is master of none.

Having lower dps however does not mean you are any worse. Having techs to pull from gives you much more adaptability and survivability than a pure damage class.

[Galax]

Exactly.

if a Hunter/Fighter would make out the max of melee weapons, and a Force/Techer the max out of tech weapons, shouldn't be there weapons that would bring a Hunter/Force to the same level?

HU/FO or Fi/Te?

EDIT: @Sephirah, some people have fun with the hybrid, others find a pure class more fun. Up to personal preference.

[Sephirah]

HU/FO or Fi/Te?

EDIT: @Sephirah, some people have fun with the hybrid, others find a pure class more fun. Up to personal preference.

I'm not saying any one is worse than the other, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to let a hybrid class have equal dps to a pure dps class.

[gigawuts]

I want a weapon that will allow me to maintain a similar dps using both damage outputs as a hybrid, as an expert class would do with a specialized weapon.



Fun?

I can only be thankful you're not in the business of making games.

Allowing a player to be equal in performance in multiple tasks to players who sacrifice to do one task exceedingly well is just fucking terrible, and never how PS worked anyway so the point is moot. Handguns did not perform as well as rifles. Sabers did not perform as well as swords. They may have excelled in one task while the other excelled in another, but they did not match and outperform them specializing weapons.

[Darki]

I'm not saying any one is worse than the other, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to let a hybrid class have equal dps to a pure dps class.

Why not?

A Hunter/Force is a hybrid class that combines two fully offensive classes. While it shouldn't be able to pull off the same dps independently using one or another source of damage, the fact is that there's no reason for it not to be able to match an expert class using both.

Saying that a hybrid shouldn't be as powerful as an expert is a typical RPG notion very similar to the "white mages vs black mages", which is another notion that PSO2 steps on as Forces are both damage dealers and supporters.



I can only be thankful you're not in the business of making games.

Fortunately that's your opinion, which I disagree.

[gigawuts]

I wonder, would you want a glass cannon build to be able to tank as well as a pure tank build?

Edit: This needs to be taken to its logical conclusion.

In FPS games, should an automatic weapon perform as well as a single shot weapon such as a sniper, or a shotgun, such that one shot may kill a player with full health?
Should a close range weapon perform as well as a long range weapon?
Should a light class tank as well as a heavy class?
Should a gun on a HU/FO be as good as on a RA/GU?
Should a RA/HU get techs and use them as well as any combination that can use techs?
Should a HU/TE have fire-based techs that perform as well as a FO/TE with a maxed out fire skilltree?

You can't merely draw the line at generalists performing as well as specialists, which is not just a tenet of RPG's but of gaming itself. You need to apply this broadly, because the same thing that makes specialists more effective at their single task is the entire point of classes existing in the first place.

[Galax]

If it could, it would not be a Glass Cannon. It would be a tank. However, you can make a hybrid class match a pure class at a certain point, but the pure class will always, always have the better options for what it focuses on, thus surpassing the hybrid in one area by the endgame.

That doesn't mean that, say, a lv20 Hunter with Techer subclass can't match the damage of a lv20 pure Hunter or Fighter. Just that when Hunter or Fighter hits 40, it will outdo the Hu/Te hybrid in up close and personal situations, while the Hu/Te Hybrid will outdo the pure Hunter or Fighter in versatility.

[Sephirah]

Why not?

A Hunter/Force is a hybrid class that combines two fully offensive classes. While it shouldn't be able to pull off the same dps independently using one or another source of damage, the fact is that there's no reason for it not to be able to match an expert class using both.

Saying that a hybrid shouldn't be as powerful as an expert is a typical RPG notion very similar to the "white mages vs black mages", which is another notion that PSO2 steps on as Forces are both damage dealers and supporters.




Fortunately that's your opinion, which I disagree.

Read my previous post prior to what you quoted me saying.

If you want to put it into white mage vs black mages, are you forgetting about red mages? The hybrid between white/black/melee? It was good at all of them, but not the best, you have to specialize to be the best. If you were equally strong in all aspects, then by having access to more abilities than a specialized class, you are not only equal, but extremely over powered in comparison. To keep it equal, a hybrid needs to be weaker overall, to compensate for the adaptability/survivability.


If it could, it would not be a Glass Cannon. It would be a tank. However, you can make a hybrid class match a pure class at a certain point, but the pure class will always, always have the better options for what it focuses on, thus surpassing the hybrid in one area by the endgame.

That doesn't mean that, say, a lv20 Hunter with Techer subclass can't match the damage of a lv20 pure Hunter or Fighter. Just that when Hunter or Fighter hits 40, it will outdo the Hu/Te hybrid in up close and personal situations, while the Hu/Te Hybrid will outdo the pure Hunter or Fighter in versatility.

Exactly.

[Carillon]

Is a gunslash's gun component good on a ranger? Is its casting abilities good on a force? No and no.

actually, the gunslash is the ranger's highest DPS weapon.
stronger PAs+stronger basic attack+vastly superior PP regain = no competition.

not to mention what that crazy pp regain does for a force...

[Slidikins]

actually, the gunslash is the ranger's highest DPS weapon. Stronger PAs+stronger basic attack+vastly superior PP regain = no competition.

not to mention what that crazy pp regain does for a force...Really? Please tell me which Gunslash PA lets me hit 5+ monsters for thousands of splash damage at once, or which PA allows me to weaken an enemy's defenses for well over half a minute while pounding into it with other high-powered PAs.

I'm being serious, by the way. As someone who's mainly Ranger I have absolutely no idea how to make a Gunslash rival my other options.

[Darki]

I wonder, would you want a glass cannon build to be able to tank as well as a pure tank build?

The problem with your statement is that a glass cannon and a tank are inherently opposite builds, while a hybrid that joins an offensive fighter with an offensive techer actually have a single role which is to deal damage (albeit in two different ways).


If you want to put it into white mage vs black mages, are you forgetting about red mages? The hybrid between white/black/melee? It was good at all of them, but not the best, you have to specialize to be the best. If you were equally strong in all aspects, then by having access to more abilities than a specialized class, you are not only equal, but extremely over powered in comparison. To keep it equal, a hybrid needs to be weaker overall, to compensate for the adaptability/survivability.

So, is a Force/Techer going to be weaker than a Force OR a Techer, in terms of damage AND support, compared to them? Because the thing is that in this game, the "black mage" is the Force, and the "white mage" is the Techer, but it happens that the "red mage" is going to be also the "expert" magic class here.

By your logic, a Force without subclass should deal more damage with techs than a Force/Techer.

[gigawuts]

The problem with your statement is that a glass cannon and a tank are inherently opposite builds, while a hybrid that joins an offensive fighter with an offensive techer actually have a single role which is to deal damage (albeit in two different ways).

Go on and read the rest of my edited post.

A hunter and a techer are meant to deal damage in different ways. When combined their atk stats alone won't be as high as a hunter/fighter. Or do you mean to say they should be as good?

When subclasses arrive, unless you can sub your main, force/techer will be the specialization.

[Ceresa]

Why not?

A Hunter/Force is a hybrid class that combines two fully offensive classes. While it shouldn't be able to pull off the same dps independently using one or another source of damage, the fact is that there's no reason for it not to be able to match an expert class using both.



I wonder, would you want a glass cannon build to be able to tank as well as a pure tank build?

Edit: This needs to be taken to its logical conclusion.


You're missing his point, he isn't saying for a hybrid to go sword mode and do competitive damage as a hunter, followed by a switch to rod mode that does force dps, he's suggesting that utilizing both in tandem would equal to a specialist.

A bit difficult to do since you can still only do one action at a time of course. PSO did it somewhat for solo play by giving the hybrids support spells, but that fell apart in team play. I suppose you could just make it so a tech following a melee attack or whatever got boosted damage forcing them to alternate, and there's your hybrid that sucks at each individually but is equivalent when played properly. Or a massively increased chance of landing burn/poison so you can open with it and consistently count on its duration damage added to your regular stuff.

This isn't an MMO afterall with defined support and tank and damage roles. Every single class in this game has one role, damage. The only thing that changes between classes is the flavor that it's done. Thus a hybrid that can't kill at 100% efficiency of a master is a waste of a class slot.

In case you didn't notice, WoW eventually got around to saying fuck it and letting all the hybrids like paladin, druid, shaman fulfill their roles the same as a pure class. People still play the pure ones because that's what they like though...funny how that works...

[Sephirah]

The problem with your statement is that a glass cannon and a tank are inherently opposite builds, while a hybrid that joins an offensive fighter with an offensive techer actually have a single role which is to deal damage (albeit in two different ways).



So, is a Force/Techer going to be weaker than a Force OR a Techer, in terms of damage AND support, compared to them? Because the thing is that in this game, the "black mage" is the Force, and the "white mage" is the Techer, but it happens that the "red mage" is going to be also the "expert" magic class here.

By your logic, a Force without subclass should deal more damage with techs than a Force/Techer.

What? That's not what we're saying at all, a fo/te is not a hybrid, nobody is going to be JUST 1 class at endgame, when we're talking hybrid, we're talking melee/magic, or melee/range, or magic/range. FO and TE are both magic classes.

[Slidikins]

By your logic, a Force without subclass should deal more damage with techs than a Force/Techer.

The way I see things, you're going to want a subclass. Period. There's no advantage to not picking one, probably. So I see:

Hunter/Fighter, Ranger/Gunner, and Force/Techer (and the reverse) as "Forte" classes. The rest would fall under "Hybrids." No one's expecting a Force/Techer to perform any less than a Force, but a Force/Ranger should not 'out-tech' a Force/Techer. That would be stupid.

[Sephirah]

The way I see things, you're going to want a subclass. Period. There's no advantage to not picking one, probably. So I see:

Hunter/Fighter, Ranger/Gunner, and Force/Techer (and the reverse) as "Forte" classes. The rest would fall under "Hybrids." No one's expecting a Force/Techer to perform any less than a Force, but a Force/Ranger should not 'out-tech' a Force/Techer. That would be stupid.

Exactly. :)

[gigawuts]

You're missing his point, he isn't saying for a hybrid to go sword mode and do competitive damage as a hunter, followed by a switch to rod mode that does force dps, he's suggesting that utilizing both in tandem would equal to a specialist.

A bit difficult to do since you can still only do one action at a time of course. PSO did it somewhat for solo play by giving the hybrids support spells, but that fell apart in team play. I suppose you could just make it so a tech following a melee attack or whatever got boosted damage forcing them to alternate, and there's your hybrid that sucks at each individually but is equivalent when played properly.

I meant to get into that topic but forgot to get into more detail than mentioning specialists and support.

When talking about a solo specialist and a solo generalist - or in a small group - the generalist will typically outperform the specialist. I think that's great. In large groups, however, when specialists are able to take their single task and leave the other tasks to the other specialists, they should not be outperformed by generalists.

To put it more plainly in PSO1 terms, which we're mostly all familiar with:
A solo HUnewearl (picking classes randomly, let's sayHU/FO) can compete with a solo HUcast (HU/FI), even outperforming it. The HUnewearl's support techs of shifta & deband, jellen & zalure, and of course resta, plus the effective ranged techs, all combine nicely and raise the HUnewearl's stats while reducing the enemy's stats to increase its performance. The HUcast only has so many heals before needing to hit the shops, and traps can only be restored at the med center (or by leveling up, which smart players would use tactically given the opportunity).

But when you put a HUnewearl and a HUcast together the HUcast benefits as much if not more from the HUnewearl's support techs. The HUcast's advantages lie in its base stats, and in being higher it benefits more from S&D plus already took less damage from enemies, in addition to just having more HP.

(edit: And in the same way, the HUnewearl didn't have better S&D or J&Z than forces, and certainly didn't have the range bonus that human forces did. NOTHING a HUnewearl did would give it level 30 support techs or the kinds of ranges human forces had on them, because why would you ever have played a support force if HUnewearls had them?).

This is fundamental design. If anything we should want even more rewards for specializing, as it directly rewards teamwork in this not-really-an-MMO-but-we-call-it-one-anyway game.

[Darki]

What? That's not what we're saying at all, a fo/te is not a hybrid, nobody is going to be JUST 1 class at endgame, when we're talking hybrid, we're talking melee/magic, or melee/range, or magic/range. FO and TE are both magic classes.

You didn't understand what I said.

Force is a fully offensive techer (even being able to use Resta, the skilltree is oriented to offensive techs), so this is the "black mage". Techer, in the other hand, is going to be the "white mage", with a skilltree that deals mainly with supportive skills (and of course using offensive techs as a source of damage), that will also rely on normal attacks as a steady source of damage to keep your PP pool free for other tasks.

In a similar way as you could reason that an all-rounded offensive/deffensive class shouldn't match a glass cannon in terms of damage, or a tank in terms of defense, an all-rounded magic class shouldn't outdamage a fully offensive Force or perform better support than a fully supportive Techer. Yet, in this game it happens that the expert magic combination is, indeed, the all-rounded magic class. Yes, it's the combination of both magic classes, but they're also opposite classes.

So, if the "expert" magic class in this game can be a "hybrid" between a supporter and a nuker, and, as expert class it should also be the main tech damage dealer, why couldn't a similar combination of HU and FO be as offensively proficent, considering that it's made of two damage dealing classes, unlike the Force/Techer?

[Slidikins]

So, if the "expert" magic class in this game can be a "hybrid" between a supporter and a nuker, and, as expert class it should also be the main tech damage dealer, why couldn't a similar combination of HU and FO be as offensively proficent, considering that it's made of two damage dealing classes, unlike the Force/Techer?

Maybe we'll find out in a few hours when the trees are released, but $5 says it's the simple synergy of picking two classes with the same primary stat. Force and Techer might both have T-Atk Up, so that alone would give them an edge. Not all of Force's skills effect damage directly (Charge PP Revival?), so maybe some of Techer's skills will help Force as well.

I don't see something like Charge PP Revival helping the Hunter half of Hunter/Force, though.

[Sephirah]

You didn't understand what I said.

Force is a fully offensive techer (even being able to use Resta, the skilltree is oriented to offensive techs), so this is the "black mage". Techer, in the other hand, is going to be the "white mage", with a skilltree that deals mainly with supportive skills (and of course using offensive techs as a source of damage), that will also rely on normal attacks as a steady source of damage to keep your PP pool free for other tasks.

In a similar way as you could reason that an all-rounded offensive/deffensive class shouldn't match a glass cannon in terms of damage, or a tank in terms of defense, an all-rounded magic class shouldn't outdamage a fully offensive Force or perform better support than a fully supportive Techer. Yet, in this game it happens that the expert magic combination is, indeed, the all-rounded magic class. Yes, it's the combination of both magic classes, but they're also opposite classes.

So, if the "expert" magic class in this game can be a "hybrid" between a supporter and a nuker, and, as expert class it should also be the main tech damage dealer, why couldn't a similar combination of HU and FO be as offensively proficent, considering that it's made of two damage dealing classes, unlike the Force/Techer?

I don't think you're understanding what a hybrid class is.

FO/TE - Highest caster dps
TE/FO - Support caster

HU/FI - Tank/dps
FI/HU - high dps

RA/GU - high range dps
GU/RA - (dont know enough about gunner)

the hybrid classes however

HU/FO - think of this like a black knight, melee/dps and some magic damage
HU/TE - think of this more like a paladin, melee with supportive magic

Because of the versitlity the techs provide, they should not out dps either a HU/FI, a FI/HU, or a FO/TE.

Obviously there are several other combinations but I dont feel like listing them all lol.

[Darki]

Maybe we'll find out in a few hours when the trees are released, but $5 says it's the simple synergy of picking two classes with the same primary stat. Force and Techer might both have T-Atk Up, so that alone would give them an edge. Not all of Force's skills effect damage directly (Charge PP Revival?), so maybe some of Techer's skills will help Force as well.

I don't see something like Charge PP Revival helping the Hunter half of Hunter/Force, though.

Of course, but thet's precisely my point.

The fact is that they made it so you can be the all-rounded magic class and also the expert just by making supportive techs to use the same stats as damaging techs. That's pretty much like saying that Hunters could rely on strenght to defend (which in the right context, it would even make sense, as physical endurance comes from streght too, is not like you can train yourself to phisically resist damage without strenghtening your body).

The thing is that you ask me why should I match a FO/TE or a HU/FI in terms of damage as a HU/FO using both sources of damage at the same time, while you don't ask yourself why whould you be able to deal that much tech damage while being able to heal and support at the same time. I don't see why one thing can be made and not the other.

[Sephirah]

Of course, but thet's precisely my point.

The fact is that they made it so you can be the all-rounded magic class and also the expert just by making supportive techs to use the same stats as damaging techs. That's pretty much like saying that Hunters could rely on strenght to defend (which in the right context, it would even make sense, as physical endurance comes from streght too, is not like you can train yourself to phisically resist damage without strenghtening your body).

The thing is that you ask me why should I match a FO/TE or a HU/FI in terms of damage as a HU/FO using both sources of damage at the same time, while you don't ask yourself why whould you be able to deal that much tech damage while being able to heal and support at the same time. I don't see why one thing can be made and not the other.

I'm betting you play a lot of WoW, where every class is balanced to be able to do every role equally.

[Darki]

I don't think you're understanding what a hybrid class is.

FO/TE - Highest caster dps
TE/FO - Support caster

HU/FI - Tank/dps
FI/HU - high dps

RA/GU - high range dps
GU/RA - (dont know enough about gunner)

the hybrid classes however

HU/FO - think of this like a black knight, melee/dps and some magic damage
HU/TE - think of this more like a paladin, melee with supportive magic

Because of the versitlity the techs provide, they should not out dps either a HU/FI, a FI/HU, or a FO/TE.

Obviously there are several other combinations but I dont feel like listing them all lol.

But I think I do understand.

Tell me, if subclasses allow the main class to use the sub's weapons, skills and PA/techs, why would a FO/TE be that different from a TE/FO? Would that slight difference in stats be THAT significative? Not to mention that you're assuming that the order of main/sub is going to matter, which we don't even know yet. If the subclass is going to give us weapons, tech/PAs, skills AND stats, there wouldn't be a difference between FO/TE and TE/FO. And even if the stats diffier, they won't be too significative as both classes will have high technic-relarted stats and the difference can be made up with mag and equipment/affixes.

You can put pretty names there, but personally I doubt that a mere stat difference is going to matter. Specially talking about expert classes.


I'm betting you play a lot of WoW, where every class is balanced to be able to do every role equally.

Never played WoW, and you wouldn't be able to pay me enough money to do so. <_<

I just like the concept of hybrid classes, and I don't see why is it neccesary to maintain some old-fashioned RPG concepts (in this case, hybrids needing to be weaker than experts) while others are forgotten (in this case, too, the division between the magical offensive and supportive classes, or the "wizard vs. Acolyte"). If we went strictly with those concepts, then a HU/FO should out-dps a FO/TE, simply because the HU/FO is a 100% offensive class while a FO/TE is a 50% offensive, 50% supportive class.

[Angelic Fae]

I never had any idea that a thread about how much I miss outdated weaponry would have turned into such a discussion. I mean this has gotten really in depth. What with Subclasses, Dps, Tankiness so on. It's amazing how far ppl are willing to go to defend their point of view. Personally I'm taking a step back because when we get this deep my play time is probably inferior to most others here who play 24 hours a day.

For the record if subclasses let you use the others both classes weapons then my problem is kinda sorted...:-D

R.I.P normal Saber

[Ezodagrom]

I never had any idea that a thread about how much I miss outdated weaponry would have turned into such a discussion. I mean this has gotten really in depth. What with Subclasses, Dps, Tankiness so on. It's amazing how far ppl are willing to go to defend their point of view. Personally I'm taking a step back because when we get this deep my play time is probably inferior to most others here who play 24 hours a day.

For the record if subclasses let you use the others both classes weapons then my problem is kinda sorted...:-D

R.I.P normal Saber
We don't know much about subclasses, the only official info there is about subclasses is this:

A subclass system will be added. For example, when a Hunter uses Force as their subclass, they’ll be able to use Technics.http://bumped.org/psublog/blass/

Of course, you won't be able to put technics in the hunter weapons, you'll have to either rely in the numbered bar to use technics with those weapons, or, if a hunter with subclass force can use both hunter and force weapons, you'll have to use rods or talis for technics (switching weapons is not too slow, this shouldn't be a problem, I guess).

[Carillon]

Really? Please tell me which Gunslash PA lets me hit 5+ monsters for thousands of splash damage at once, or which PA allows me to weaken an enemy's defenses for well over half a minute while pounding into it with other high-powered PAs.

I'm being serious, by the way. As someone who's mainly Ranger I have absolutely no idea how to make a Gunslash rival my other options.

Thrillsplosion. hits harder than divine launcher, for less PP. run into the mob and jump to pretty much garentee headshots. make a basic shot/modechange/slash to JA it for even more damage.

when taking weakshot into account, initially rifles will pull into the lead, but the combination of adding basic attacks+PP regain for more PAs+more JAs eventually results in gunslash pulling ahead. and fact that rifles are pretty much garbage without weakshot doesn't help.

(disclaimer: things like idontwanttoorcantgetthatclose or ihaveapartythatbenefitsfromweakshottoo are why we have more than one one weapon.)

[NoiseHERO]

Even with off-handed techs being mediocre... the main classes power should make up for not needing a rod, being like how older games warriors could use basic magic...

Should be cool

/Posting to myself.

[Zorafim]

I'm betting you play a lot of WoW, where every class is balanced to be able to do every role equally.

I do. And I have to say they do an amazing job at it.

My class is a paladin, which combines melee strength with holy magic. I can specialize as either a tank, a melee DpS, or a healer. As a tank, I lose the damage I would get as a DpS, and the casting capabilities of the healer, but I have a ton of defensive abilities and am able to outlast just about anything.
As the DpS, I lose the defense I'd get as a tank, and my healing is limited, but I'm able to kill things quickly.
As a healer, I can't do much damage, and I'm helpless to do anything besides spam heal myself to keep myself alive if attacked. But I do have powerful heals, and can keep casting for minutes without rest.

Compare a DpS paladin with a rogue, and you see they do similar damage. Rogue has more control over his damage, and have more abilities for getting out of situations. So even though paladin has plate armor and healing spells, rogue often outperforms it. And though you'd think paladins would perform best in PvP due to their balanced stats, the rogue still comes out ahead most times simply because of their control.

I think it's a great design. You're forced to specialize, and keep the general abilities of your class. But almost every spec is viable.


The reason why this doesn't seem to work in PSO, is because of the reliance of base stats. If you do Hu/Fo, any Satk gains you get on the Hu side won't benefit the Fo side. And your mag, which is supposed to let you specialize however you like, actually limits your choice in sub classes since it can only benefit one spec at a time. The only real synergy between main class and sub classes are abilities, which actually could be pretty cool if used well.

I've been looking through different class/sub combinations, and for the most part purebreeds win out. But there are a few cases where hybrids have an advantage. Specifically, I'm looking at hunter, fighter, and techer as sub classes. Hunter has the different stances, which provide benefits to some stats while giving penalties to others. You could use fury stance with ranger, negate the defense loss by never being in striking range, and benefit from the Ratk boost. Or, go guard stance on force to have good defense while not effecting your tech power. Then there's fighter's stances, which provide a boost in overall damage without effecting any stats, which is useful to any class. And techer provides two abilities which boost passive PP regeneration (Passive, right?), which is great for not only force (while RAfoie spamming, the passive boost will allow one or two more techs to be cast before being out of PP), but also Ranger (while weak shotting, the passive PP boost allows more PAs to be used). Plus, I don't think support techs take Tatk into account, letting you use boosted shifta and deband at full strength on any class.


So, basically, there's no reason why we can't have hybrids be as good as pure classes, if we only look at abilities and not stat boosts. If each class gets an ability which compliments its own game play without boosting its stats, then any spec should be viable.
Which, by the way, is what Warcraft does.
oh my god wall of text

[Darki]

In my opinion, the inconvenient of having a sub-class system, in opposition of what we got in PSU (advanced "real" classes that included hybrids and experts) is the fact that the sub-class system wouldn't allow for more specific hybrid-friendly skills

To put it simple, for example, it would make no sense to have a Force with a set of skills that improved the use of techs specifically when subbed with Hunter, so it would allow for a more "hybrid" combat style, instead of just using techs sometimes, melee some other times.

In the other hand, having the HU/FO combination as a "real" class would give them more freedom to add skills that would fit that particular combination even more. Imagine a "Sword Gear II", only for "Wartecher", that would increase the damage of uncharged JA'd techs when the "heat gauge" is up, making them as powerful as charged ones, but only when JA'd right after a sword attack.

Honestly, I prefer the sub-class system because it's going to be easier to balance, but I'd like that there was a way to acquire some "extra skills" that would be made for this purpose somehow, like "quest skills" in many games.