They made it HARDER to grind through 20-30?

[Takatsuki]

Supposedly, the new Normal Tundra, Mines and FC were supposed to make it easier to get through the 20-30 grind...

But there's no new COs for these new Normal areas. All of the existing mission completion/enemy kill/enemy drop COs only work in Hard mode. Literally the only COs you can possibly complete in these Normal mode areas are Emeline's weather survey quests.

To add to that, from my brief visit to Normal Tundra, it seems like Hard Forest and Caves STILL give more EXP, an amount of EXP that wasn't enough to begin with. I'm not sure how much EXP Normal Mines or FC give, but it can't possibly be enough to offset the fact that they cut out the previous best way to grind through 20-30, Cressida and Franka's COs.

Now, their COs can only be done once a week instead of every day. This makes it INCREDIBLY hard to grind through 20-30 and could potentially even make it harder to grind through 30-40. Now, the only daily quests that still pay well are Hans' Hard Mines and Hard FC quests.

What they should have done is simply halved the amount of EXP Cressida's quests gave (Franka's quests gave a suitable amount due to the fact that you had to get drops that can at times be somewhat rare) and left both of them at daily repeatables instead of weekly.

The other, obvious thing they should have done is added a new Client that gave kill and/or drop quests for Normal Tundra, Mines and FC. Speaking of new Clients, why aren't there any COs specifically for the new classes other than the ones the new red Caseal Client gives? Why doesn't Cressida have quests to complete specific missions as Fighter/Gunner/Techer like she does for Hunter/Ranger/Force? Why don't Ohza/Lisa/Marlu, or heck, brand new Clients ask you to drag them along to specific missions as the relevant class? There's virtually nothing to do as these new classes besides grind Hans and Lavelle's dailies, once you've completed all of the new Caseal Client's orders that you can at any given moment.

I think that this update was extremely poorly planned out, in terms of new quest content. I think Sega needs to revert what they did to Cressida and Franka (and maybe halve Cressida's EXP) and add new COs relevant to the new classes and Normal mode areas. As it stands, they've just made the painful grind through 20-30 even worse.

[Gama]

i didnt use cressidas or frankas quests to go to lvl 40 as a force or 30 as a hunter. lol it didnt take that long.

[Coatl]

But hans has COs for monster kills in tundra.
I don't believe they are exclusive to hard mode either.

I'm sure ALL of the people who farmed 999 mats for Franka would have been delighted if they just let Franka how she was. But that just goes to show you how broken she was. I was taken aback by the sneak update they did on her as well, but I can't say this is completely unreasonable either lol.

[Yaski]

I feel the pain. Maybe they will fix that. I doubt it though.

[CelestialBlade]

I don't see how that makes it "harder" aside from the new restrictions on the daily COs. I'm not sure those needed to be a week, but honestly, that much EXP every day when it's easy to hoard items is just silly. It's not like this is a game with a ton of content that unlocks at endgame, so why cap-rush?

What I hated most about the 20-30 grind was the lack of variety we had in missions. I can't do the same thing over and over again, I always switch missions up, so it's nice to have that variety now.

[Slidikins]

i didnt use cressidas or frankas quests to go to lvl 40 as a force or 30 as a hunter. lol it didnt take that long.I think I did each of them once, wanting to unlock her full Order list before repeating them. I mainly focused on completing the matter board and I leveled faster than I thought I would.

I don't think leveling 20-30 got any harder, but at least there're more areas to grind in. I'm not sure what level the normal Free Fields are for the newer areas, but hopefully there are some bosses to fight between 20-30 now as well.

[VenomFaiz03]

So pessimistic! Hate to sound contrary, but I've got no problems with how things are going. The added level options are a decent change of pace and even got some of the players who quit early to rejoin me and level their main classes while I worked on Fighter. As for FI/GU/TE NPCs with specific CO's, I wouldn't be surprised if they're coming. I imagine The New Power partII will have something along those lines. Along with a new matter board and some new story, and exp is exp. I like having flavor while levelling and those do the trick for me just fine.

[Ezodagrom]

I don't see how that makes it "harder" aside from the new restrictions on the daily COs. I'm not sure those needed to be a week, but honestly, that much EXP every day when it's easy to hoard items is just silly. It's not like this is a game with a ton of content that unlocks at endgame, so why cap-rush?

What I hated most about the 20-30 grind was the lack of variety we had in missions. I can't do the same thing over and over again, I always switch missions up, so it's nice to have that variety now.
This, what lacked between lvls 20~30 was variety in missions.
Oh, and let's not forget that at lvl 25 we get access to forest, caves and desert free fields now, which helps alot in this lvl gap, especially for the lvl cap client order.

[Agitated_AT]

Yeah I agree that variety was my only issue. I don't care for slow grinding as long I get acces to the content at normal. Before the only reason why I wanted to reach lvl 30 ASAP was that. What's with the haste towards lvl 40 anyway?

[The Walrus]

tbh I'd say now that the haste is moreso to get to 30 in order to get the new classes.

[Agitated_AT]

tbh I'd say now that the haste is moreso to get to 30 in order to get the new classes.

So then instead of enjoying the game people get frustrated because the road towards their goal is slow? What does this say? Is the game not fun enough or is it people just playing with the wrong mindset?

Probably a little bit of both

Anyway, once you get to the new class, you're just gonna play the same game again anyway. You allready had 3 classes with all different experiences. so I don't see what's so special about it

[dablacksephiroth]

Meanwhile, the rest of us cool guys have gotten to 30/40 when Emergency Urban Ragne would come up every second hour and last 1 hour, 19 minutes.

[pikachief]

I don't think they said anything about making it easier at all. I don't think they even commented on the 20-30 grind. But their response to the 20-30 grind was to make it less boring by opening up more areas, which is what people wanted and so they did.

I don't think it's harder as there are other client orders. It maybe be slower, idk. It also may be easier because of more areas making it possibly less boring.

(and getting free fields at lvl 25 :P)

[Ezodagrom]

About Clessida and Franka's client orders being changed from 24 to 168 hours, they were not changed to make lvl 20~30 slower, looks like this was the reason for the change:
http://bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-regarding-the-new-update/



When you received some high level client orders, you could switch classes and use them on lower levels for some quick leveling. It wasn’t intended to be used like this. In PSO2 you don’t have an overall character level, your character level depends on what class you are. If you are a high level player and switch classes, you would return to level one. It was to suggest that beginners and advanced players could play together and interact with one another while progressing through the game.
Through the course of leveling up each class, the game balancing is adjusted on the assumption that your play skills would have naturally improved. Despite haven’t grown accustomed to that class, as they see more players who are high only in their levels, it becomes harder for them to deliver difficult quests and powerful enemies intended for advanced players. As of result, it shortens the game’s length.
As a countermeasure they made it so that if you switched to a different class, the high level client orders would scale down to your level, but it looks like this plan is not enough. Based on future trends, there’s a possibility that they may take a gradual approach in changing the way it works. They want to examine not only what should be nerfed, but what they can also increase as a result.

(Comment from Ricardo: It appears that they don’t want people to switch classes and power level their way through. Before this update, people would gather all of Franka and Clessida’s client orders and not turn them in. They would then change classes and level up without lifting a finger. In the future they MAY decide on changing it so that by switching classes you induce a much larger reward penalty. I think their intent is to provide a generous incentive for those who stay in the class, and penalize those who switch classes. Also it appears they want to avoid a situation where people complain about future high level quests being too hard/too easy due to the way they thought the game should have been balanced. Makes you wonder who the Story Quests were truly aimed for before the nerf.)

[dablacksephiroth]

Funny that... I had always been wondering that stuff myself.

Story Mode in the beginning and who it was aimed toward. lol.. Interesting. Story Mode.. only for the Advanced!!!!!

Not no mores!

[LordChampion]

No pain, I've leveled from 26 to 30 playing maybe seven hours. Emergency codes pop up every four and a half seconds anymore, and in a good multiparty you'll get blown up with experience. I did Hard Caves for an hour and got like 40,000 experience and over 100,000 meseta.

Takatsuki, change your thinking. The game is what it is. It may not be what you want it to be, but it's not yours to decide. Your decision is to enjoy the game for what it is or ignore the game for what it is. What good does complaining do? What are you hoping to accomplish with this thread?

[Gen2000]

They changed the check time down for Emergency Missions from 1 hour to 30min. If you're still struggling to level now at a decent speed either you're a soloist or doing it wrong.

[pikachief]

if they dont want us turning in client orders on other classes... couldn't they have made it so that you can only turn in the client order on the class you accepted it as?

[Coatl]

if they dont want us turning in client orders on other classes... couldn't they have made it so that you can only turn in the client order on the class you accepted it as?

Shhhhhhh.
We know SEGA doesn't think this through, we don't want them catching on.

[Takatsuki]

I get what you guys are saying, but I still think that there's simply not enough COs to level in a reasonable amount of time during 20-30.

You guys are definitely right about Franka's quests being abusable, so perhaps those should stay weekly... but Cressida's really should be daily (and maybe halved EXP like I said). See, it's different when you're leveling your first class, since you have all the one-time quests to go through as well, but once you start another class, especially the new classes since they have so few unique COs, there's just not as many quests to do.

Leveling in this game through enemy EXP is just far too slow, the only way to really make any progress is with COs... There must be something done to offset this lack of COs for a second class.

[The Walrus]

They could just increase enemy EXP to 1.5 or 2 times what it is now.

[eharima]

Sega thoughts;
people are leveling too fast and we don't sell enough exp boosters.
Sakai; I KNOW!!
=results....
Don't forget the business model is f2p.

[Zorafim]

My problem with 20-30 wasn't the speed. It was the amount of things you could do. It seemed like you were overloaded with content from 10-20, then there's nothing to do from 20-30, and suddenly there's a ton of content again from 30-40. This disparity becomes worse as they create new content. While 20-30 has almost nothing new, 30-40 has 3 zones and 5 matterboards!

I'm just hoping the normal level zones fixed this. If matterboard 3 can be done at 20, it changes the amount of matter boards available at 20-30 from 0 to 3, giving you ten levels to do the last two matterboards.

Of course, it's too late for me now. But I need to think about the future of new players.

[jooozek]

There is more variety now but the grind got even worse:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/iRDjx.jpg

That's right, 5 EXP from the trash monsters[/SPOILER-BOX]
Can't they lrn2scale properly? Jesus christ. Now it's either:

a) pick ok exp, shitty drops
or
b) pick better drops, SERIOUSLY SHITTY EXP

[dablacksephiroth]

Last I remember, Matterboard 3's Tundra requirements were for 21+ mobs. The only way I got around that was when I hit 25 on my newer characters, I would have a buddy take me to Time Attack Naberius hard mode to hunt the Malmoths if I had nothing better to do, client order-wise.

Couldn't do it in normal TA, because the enemies stay level 20. No higher.

And as a player who's leveled 3 characters to 40, I have to agree in the 20-30 territory, the lack of client orders for leveling compared to the previous levels AND levels AFTER 30, sucks in comparison.

20-30 was no problem for my first character, though that was back in the olden days where level cap WAS 30. It was reached swiftly thanks to all the Emergency Urbans that would come up.

There was a huge lack in emergencies for my last 2 characters, as if I chose some of the worse times to log on and play. I depended on those, ..but when I couldn't get a run to save my life, wound up learning to make the best of surrounding client orders and Matter Boards that help me unlock more Orders from certain NPC's.

After you hit 25, the Level cap trial is really nice to work on. But what shall I do when it's a new class and not a new character? Hmmmm.. BING! Sap orders from main and give em to alt while waiting for an Emergency! Run circles in Hard mode Caterdran or FREE MISSION!





Lol! And I think most of you either forgot or don't know, but this is Phantasy Star online! Where if the enemy is so many levels above or below you (usually +5 and -5), you shall seeth yucky exp!

[IzzyData]

Leveling to 40 is already way to easy that I stopped caring about leveling after my 4th 40. There is currently nothing to do at 40 so rushing there is kind of a waste of time in itself. Just have fun and play because you'll likely hit 40 before they raise the cap anyway.

What doesn't make sense is that the amount of exp increase for being level 30-39 is greater than the amount of exp it requires to level. So it is easier to level the higher level you are. Something with that scale needs to be balanced. It should be harder to level as you level up.

[jooozek]

Lol! And I think most of you either forgot or don't know, but this is Phantasy Star online! Where if the enemy is so many levels above or below you (usually +5 and -5), you shall seeth yucky exp!
I don't recall such a thing from back when I played the first PSO. And even if it was there, holy crap, we have 2012 now and this game ain't a sweatshop for gold farmers. Seems like a dumb oversight from them to scale exp like that, like what the hell, 1/3 of what you would get from the same monster but in normal and around level 20? Seriously? No justifying garbage systems like that.

[dablacksephiroth]

I don't recall such a thing from back when I played the first PSO. And even if it was there, holy crap, we have 2012 now and this game ain't a sweatshop for gold farmers. Seems like a dumb oversight from them to scale exp like that, like what the hell, 1/3 of what you would get from the same monster but in normal and around level 20? Seriously? No justifying garbage systems like that.

Ahhh, the ol' mechanic they used to keep the players in their respective leveling bracket. This was very evident in PSU and the Portables, never got to try Hard mode much in the DS format, but anywho, last I recall it was just their way of keeping a bracket of players tight so they can have more people to play with as they progress.

In this version of PSO though, there's something that isn't level-based, and that's the Emergency quest rewards. It would've been a nice pass, but the surrounding enemies are supposed to also be a bonus to your exp gain as you grind. x-x

And as for PSO1, I do.... SLIGHTLY miss the days where higher level enemies simply meant you're only going to hit them 1% of the time and when you did, it was very horrible damage. lmao

[Sephirah]

I haven't read this thread yet so forgive me if this has already been said. But really guys, COME ON. This game is not that bad in terms of "the grind". Go play Lineage 2 where every level after 35 takes a week of 8+ hours grinding every day.

Honestly until the level cap gets raised they could stand to slow it down!

[jooozek]

I haven't read this thread yet so forgive me if this has already been said. But really guys, COME ON. This game is not that bad in terms of "the grind". Go play Lineage 2 where every level after 35 takes a week of 8+ hours grinding every day.

Honestly until the level cap gets raised they could stand to slow it down!

The level cap has been artifically raised already - to play any of the new classes you need to level to 30 one of the old classes.

[Zorafim]

They force you to grind the boring levels, then make you stop playing once you reach the fun levels. What devilry!

[FlameOfYagami]

I still dont understand why people bitch and complain so damn much about this so called "ultra hard to lvl up" mode =/

The new classes just came out and I already have fighter at 26 =/

It wont be long till i'm 30. The fuck do you people want? a fucking win button? Press it as it lvl's you up to 40 right away? It's so pathetic. This is the reason why every game is easy mode now, because people want everything easy as hell.

I heard that COD is a great EASY mode game. You should give it a shot I heard it pretty much plays itself ^^;

[Zorafim]

I'm pretty sure you're complaining harder than everyone who's complained about 20-30 put together. The problem isn't that it's hard. The problem is that it's boring.

[Yunfa]

Why do I even read these type of threads...self noted

[Coatl]

Getting to lv20-25 has never taken me more than three sittings.
Leveling in PSO2 is easy cakes.

[Zyrusticae]

I still don't get it. I had no problems going through 20-30 twice. The key is to focus on what you can do now, not what you can do in 10 more levels.

Too many people focus on want, want, want, want, want, and not what they already have. Come on! It's not surprising you're not happy when you're constantly yearning for something over the horizon.

[Kierto]

Well I dunno, just playing this game from level 1 again as Free Forest -> Free Cave -> Free Desert -> Free Tundra etc without all of the bullshit filler Arks Quests and Koffee/Afin/ClassNPC client orders as we with new classes are experiencing having ground out all that trash previously, the ride is much less overbearing. And it's easier to find parties doing the same as you. Hey, almost sounds like PSO1.

Still, doesn't fix the whole 'non scaling trash mobs are most profitable' issue, though.

I dread to think of the boring experience any new players to the game will have in a few months when everyone is just grinding Skyland/DarkerHomeworld with their main+sub gassed up toons..

[Ezodagrom]

There is more variety now but the grind got even worse:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/iRDjx.jpg

That's right, 5 EXP from the trash monsters[/spoiler-box]
Can't they lrn2scale properly? Jesus christ. Now it's either:

a) pick ok exp, shitty drops
or
b) pick better drops, SERIOUSLY SHITTY EXP
Lvl 20 player, lvl 38 enemy, exp penalty in action. :|
It's a pitty that they brought back the exp penalty to pso2, but now it's even worse than in psu (where the exp penalty only started when enemies were over 30 levels higher than the player).

[gigawuts]

just do mines idk

[Mystil]

I still don't get it. I had no problems going through 20-30 twice. The key is to focus on what you can do now, not what you can do in 10 more levels.

Too many people focus on want, want, want, want, want,

right now.

FTFY

[TaigaUC]

This game is not that bad in terms of "the grind". Go play Lineage 2 where every level after 35 takes a week of 8+ hours grinding every day.

Wrong mindset again. It doesn't matter what you compare to. If it's not fun, it's NOT FUN. You can't justify it by saying it could be worse, if it's still bad. People should be thinking about how it could be better, not how it could be worse.

Personally, I think one of the main problems is the entire levelling system. In some games, levelling isn't noticeable. You play the game, enjoy it, and your level goes up without you realizing it. in PSO2, level requirements are a significant, constant wall that players NEED to scale, just to be able to do simple things, like play the same areas with friends, or progress in the story.

In other words, levelling is a primary goal in PSO2, whereas in some games it is secondary. Levelling as a primary goal is not fun. It artificially extends gameplay time by forcing players to redo old content to progress. The general impression I get is that PSO2 lacks content and depth, so they drag out what there is. But they've stretched it out too thin.

The game is lacking in gameplay depth because it doesn't take long to get to a point where you're playing as effectively as you can, from your own ability. After that, it's nothing more than artificial improvements (ie. equipment). There's little time required to master classes, and the way the skill trees are setup, as well as the rarity and expensiveness of equipment, discourages experimentation with alternative playstyles.

The PSO2 that I initially thought was good, was actually the result of several years of closed testing, thanks to testers constantly complaining about basic game design flaws. What we're seeing now is SEGA's on-the-fly game design choices, and it's clear that they don't think anything through and have no idea what they are doing. We're the testers now, and we have to complain like the previous testers did, or they won't improve anything.

Either way, it's going to be a long while before we see improvements, and I'm honestly very tempted to take a break and come back when things are fun again.

[gigawuts]

I love how there's lots of rationally explained reasons for why the 20-30 grind is bad, and then the reasons why it isn't bad is the standard fallacies of OTHER GAMES ARE WORSE and of course I THOUGHT IT WAS FINE YOU'RE JUST IMPATIENT AND WANT EVERYTHING NOW NOW NOW.

[Flame]

Wrong mindset again. It doesn't matter what you compare to. If it's not fun, it's NOT FUN. You can't justify it by saying it could be worse, if it's still bad. People should be thinking about how it could be better, not how it could be worse.

Personally, I think one of the main problems is the entire levelling system. In some games, levelling isn't noticeable. You play the game, enjoy it, and your level goes up without you realizing it. in PSO2, level requirements are a significant, constant wall that players NEED to scale, just to be able to do simple things, like play the same areas with friends, or progress in the story.

In other words, levelling is a primary goal in PSO2, whereas in some games it is secondary. Levelling as a primary goal is not fun. It artificially extends gameplay time by forcing players to redo old content to progress. The general impression I get is that PSO2 lacks content and depth, so they drag out what there is. But they've stretched it out too thin.

The game is lacking in gameplay depth because it doesn't take long to get to a point where you're playing as effectively as you can, from your own ability. After that, it's nothing more than artificial improvements (ie. equipment). There's little time required to master classes, and the way the skill trees are setup, as well as the rarity and expensiveness of equipment, discourages experimentation with alternative playstyles.

The PSO2 that I initially thought was good, was actually the result of several years of closed testing, thanks to testers constantly complaining about basic game design flaws. What we're seeing now is SEGA's on-the-fly game design choices, and it's clear that they don't think anything through and have no idea what they are doing. We're the testers now, and we have to complain like the previous testers did, or they won't improve anything.

Either way, it's going to be a long while before we see improvements, and I'm honestly very tempted to take a break and come back when things are fun again.

well put. There's something very wrong with this game it its core. It feels more like a free combat app than an actual game that has meaningful goals and rewarding progression. I don't know how or where things went so wrong.

[Squire Grooktook]

The game is lacking in gameplay depth because it doesn't take long to get to a point where you're playing as effectively as you can, from your own ability. After that, it's nothing more than artificial improvements (ie. equipment).

I just wanted to disagree with this here. It's not that the core combat lacks depth or technique imo, it's just that the game at its current stage doesn't demand you utilize that skill or technique all that often (after all, even if you die, you can just replay the level and try again with no penalties).

I personally feel the core combat (for Hunter at least, can't talk of the rest since I haven't played them too much) has more depth then a lot of dedicated action games. I like how you have to commit more to your attacks, I like how you have a variety of different ways of attacking all of which are useful, I like how even basic walking and running has a high degree of precision (like how you can reverse direction instantly, instead of having to turn around for a sec like some action rpg's), I like how the game has a lot of potential for combo's and meter management. I could go on.

There are a few tweaks I think it needs. But really, what it just needs most is better progression and more challenge (because challenge = excitement and I will hear no argument).

[KurotenZer0]

Anyone miss the good ol' days? You know, when the game was fresh and new-age with a hint of nostalgia thrown in to pacify the purists?

See the thing is now SEGA has to contend with their business model for the game, their fan/playerbase, issues with the game itself, and how to properly deploy/create new content for a game that I believe has greatly exceeded above and beyond their expectations.

To me the whole way SEGA has handled the game seems like they didn't KNOW people were going to sit hours-on-end grinding and exploring their creation (congestion during launch, the hacker scenario, server lag, the new ship-transfer feature tba and so on) and their origional release schedule has had to be put into overdrive. However to combat this, they've had to resort to common tricks of the trade to stretch out/thinly expand on gameplay elements.
Now STOP right there.
I LOVE PSO2, and can't wait until my comp is fixed enough to enjoy the game again (Seriously, I think my team thinks I'm dead or something). HOWEVER, I am also a gamer with a bit of common sense, or with enough of it, to understand when 'new-content' is mask-term for 'tweaked-element' or 'fixed bug'. Hell I remember clearly when people were b@#%!ing about the 20-30 grind BEFORE all this started, so I'm not going to say that a select few people are just beyond pleasing and just feel like whining...but I digress before I ramble.


tl;dr IMO, Sega wasn't ready to release this game. I'm happy as HELL they did, and can fully withstand having to play same-level again as I wait for new contend to be fully developed...




PS: I really f***ing hate the new classes. SO did we not get sub-classes or what?

[Zyrusticae]

I love how there's lots of rationally explained reasons for why the 20-30 grind is bad, and then the reasons why it isn't bad is the standard fallacies of OTHER GAMES ARE WORSE and of course I THOUGHT IT WAS FINE YOU'RE JUST IMPATIENT AND WANT EVERYTHING NOW NOW NOW.
No, a lack of patience is definitely a problem.

But that wasn't what I was getting at, which is that players should be focused on whether or not they're having fun right now and, if they're not, why that is the case.

Look, if the game's just not fun for you, WHY BOTHER? A million times I feel I have to ask this to people. WHY BOTHER if the only reason you're playing is just to hit that next milestone? What is even the point then? It's a game, you're supposed to have fun, if it's not fun, leveling up isn't exactly going to be a magic pill to fix that.

[dablacksephiroth]

Wrong mindset again. It doesn't matter what you compare to. If it's not fun, it's NOT FUN. You can't justify it by saying it could be worse, if it's still bad. People should be thinking about how it could be better, not how it could be worse.

Personally, I think one of the main problems is the entire levelling system. In some games, levelling isn't noticeable. You play the game, enjoy it, and your level goes up without you realizing it. in PSO2, level requirements are a significant, constant wall that players NEED to scale, just to be able to do simple things, like play the same areas with friends, or progress in the story.

In other words, levelling is a primary goal in PSO2, whereas in some games it is secondary. Levelling as a primary goal is not fun. It artificially extends gameplay time by forcing players to redo old content to progress. The general impression I get is that PSO2 lacks content and depth, so they drag out what there is. But they've stretched it out too thin.

The game is lacking in gameplay depth because it doesn't take long to get to a point where you're playing as effectively as you can, from your own ability. After that, it's nothing more than artificial improvements (ie. equipment). There's little time required to master classes, and the way the skill trees are setup, as well as the rarity and expensiveness of equipment, discourages experimentation with alternative playstyles.

The PSO2 that I initially thought was good, was actually the result of several years of closed testing, thanks to testers constantly complaining about basic game design flaws. What we're seeing now is SEGA's on-the-fly game design choices, and it's clear that they don't think anything through and have no idea what they are doing. We're the testers now, and we have to complain like the previous testers did, or they won't improve anything.

Either way, it's going to be a long while before we see improvements, and I'm honestly very tempted to take a break and come back when things are fun again.
Isn't "fun" an opinion?

[gigawuts]

No, a lack of patience is definitely a problem.

But that wasn't what I was getting at, which is that players should be focused on whether or not they're having fun right now and, if they're not, why that is the case.

Look, if the game's just not fun for you, WHY BOTHER? A million times I feel I have to ask this to people. WHY BOTHER if the only reason you're playing is just to hit that next milestone? What is even the point then? It's a game, you're supposed to have fun, if it's not fun, leveling up isn't exactly going to be a magic pill to fix that.

Because it's fun in all other level brackets, and for many of us 20-30 levels are direly fucking boring.

Fortunately for me, I like the mines, so chugging away in 20-30 is no longer boring. What I hated was multiple days of having to play levels I hated with slow progress on top of that fact, to actually get to levels I liked.

As far as "If you don't like it go play something else," that's another one to mark on the list of "standard fallacies people throw out because they can't accept the fact that some people feel differently from them about the same game."

[Griffin]

I'm still waiting for my god-damned game to patch!

[Galax]

Fun is an experience, and experiences are interpreted differently by other people.

Then there's the ways people have fun - Some people would find it extremely fun if SEGA released the Vjaya from PSO1 again - You insert meseta, swing the blade, and BAM DEAD MONSTERS. They'd like that because they have fun by blowing everything up as quickly as possible.

Others have fun by going slow and playing with friends, not exactly caring how good their equipment is, still competent at playing - but they aren't top-tier players, either.

And there's more than likely several mixes of the two, above the "blow it all up lol this is fun", below the "I'm decent but I have fun taking my time" and everything in between.

Those do not mean that we all find fun in the same ways. For some of you this game is fun as it is, and for others it isn't. I find the grind boring. For me, it's also long, because I fall into that second category - I play to be decent, to have a little fun with friends, not to rush the levelcap and gain 100k in an hour. I've been in the lv20-30 range for two weeks because I'm taking my time. It's seriously the ONLY way I gain ANY kind of fun from the game. Yes, I could speed it up and hit new content by repeating Lavelle and Franka and Cressida orders as much as possible. Or I could not rush and be left hanging around other games, disconnected from my PSO2 friends, waiting for a new content patch.

If you find the game fun as it is, with repetitive levels and the game, indeed, making you focus on leveling up, then that's fine. I only ask that you not try to say we're wrong for not seeing it that way, because in a way it is an opinion and opinions can be dumb - if you interpret them as dumb - but it technically can't be wrong. I am not WRONG for wanting to have some more variety - I don't take issue with difficulty. It's NOT hard to kill the mobs. Which is part of the problem, IMO, since they mostly attack in the same patterns with little variation. Desert is my current favorite because the mechs seem to have the most variety.

tl;dr? We're not wrong for having fun differently than others. One has fun by blasting and OHKOing, others have fun by taking their time going through the content.

PS: I read the entire topic, posting on my screen after dablacksephiroth, and I see ZERO complaints about DIFFICULTY. I DO see that the game is "boring" "repetitive" and being "stretched thin on it's content." Which it is. If I work hard to reach the Tundra and Mines and shit, I don't want to turn around and start at level 1 with a new class, fighting mobs with a different gun and nothing else changing. It's ridiculous.

[Zyrusticae]

Because it's fun in all other level brackets, and for many of us 20-30 levels are direly fucking boring.

Fortunately for me, I like the mines, so chugging away in 20-30 is no longer boring. What I hated was multiple days of having to play levels I hated with slow progress on top of that fact, to actually get to levels I liked
Then obviously the problem is simply that the levels aren't fun to begin with, not that there's a "grind" (which really isn't much of a grind at all, with how fast leveling is in this game).


As far as "If you don't like it go play something else," that's another one to mark on the list of "standard fallacies people throw out because they can't accept the fact that some people feel differently from them about the same game."You don't really know how fallacies work, do you?

I'm saying people are focusing on the wrong problems. If the game's not fun for you for 20-30 then something is off, whether it's the levels themselves, the monsters in those levels, the difficulty, or what-have-you. If the game itself is fun then you should never, ever notice a "grind".

And if you ever notice a "grind", you really shouldn't force yourself. There's no guarantee the game will ever not become a grind.

[Flame]

Isn't "fun" an opinion?

Yes and no. Obviously fun is different for everyone. But when players stop dropping out like flies and almost half the topics made are complaint topics, you've got yourself a good argument for there being something wrong with the title.

[gigawuts]

Then obviously the problem is simply that the levels aren't fun to begin with, not that there's a "grind" (which really isn't much of a grind at all, with how fast leveling is in this game).

You don't really know how fallacies work, do you?

I'm saying people are focusing on the wrong problems. If the game's not fun for you for 20-30 then something is off, whether it's the levels themselves, the monsters in those levels, the difficulty, or what-have-you. If the game itself is fun then you should never, ever notice a "grind".

And if you ever notice a "grind", you really shouldn't force yourself. There's no guarantee the game will ever not become a grind.

Then I guess my textbook directly referencing the trend of Americans telling people who don't like their country to get out, and calling doing such a thing fallacious, also didn't know how fallacies work.

Or maybe it did.

You're pretty much saying that if a game is at any point in time boring to you that you should stop playing. Nevermind the idea that developers are human and can make mistakes, and can make one part of a game unfun. Also nevermind differing tastes in level design. If you're ever bored at any point in time in a game that game is obviously not for you. So, when I got bored at level 23, I should have quit, even though I had plenty of fun after I got out of that level bracket.

This is why I don't like to argue on the internet, geesh.

[kkow]

er... unless i missed something, it's the game's job to keep us entertained. a hastily put on band aid, in this case the addition of the normal fields, doesn't fix some of the core problems that people are taking issue with. i have no idea why people even defend the 20-30 grind. telling people that it's their own problem is not a valid argument in the slightest. so what if it's free or "unfinished"? certainly not my problem.

[Zyrusticae]

The "get out of my country!" crap is fallacious because it is extremely difficult to relocate to another country. Difficult enough that making such a demand is completely unreasonable, not to mention callous and short-sighted.

Meanwhile, switching to a different entertainment product is not only very easy, it's an entirely reasonable thing to do when entertainment is the goal. When what you're trying to do is entertain yourself, why waste your time masochistically trying to squeeze fun out of a product that just isn't doing it for you? That's what I have trouble with. You managing to find fun after the slow stretch is an exception, not the norm.

And you're going on tangents. Never said the developers weren't human, or that they can't make mistakes - in fact I pretty explicitly pointed out that the mistakes are in other areas that make it feel "grindy" (to some players). They should fix those parts so there's no longer a feeling of "grindiness", and just removing that section by adding gigantic XP boosts in the form of client orders or what-have-you would just be a giant cop-out.

[gigawuts]

Huh, now I know you write logic textbooks. I'll keep that in mind.

I thought the issue with grindy-feeling areas was obvious. Of course the issue is that it feels grindy because X, Y, or Z. The issue is resolving X, Y, or Z.

Besides, I've already said I like the areas for it, so don't feel it's so grindy anymore, so I'm really not sure why you keep replying to me saying these things.

(and no, I'm not the exception in finding 20-30 boring but everything else great, this thread and many others are evidence of that)

edit: Actually, to expand on that last bit - the fact that sega just added content for 20-30 is pretty much a case closed on whether I'm the exception or the norm. Why is this even being discussed again?

Oh yeah, internet video game forum. Sorry, stupid question.

[Zyrusticae]

I should note here that the reason I'm railing against this so hard is because I'm fucking sick and tired of people throwing around the incredibly vague and unhelpful phrase of "grinding" when just about anything else would be more descriptive of the actual problem. (I especially hate people using the term "Korean grinder", which hasn't been applicable to Korean MMOs since Lineage II.) What is more helpful is actually getting to the meat of what makes a game feel "grindy". Is it just overtly and oppressively repetitive? Is there not enough variety in the activities? Does the world fail to suck you in? Is the core gameplay just not very good? Any one of these is far more helpful than just saying "too much grinding!", which leads to developers thinking adding boosts to XP will solve the problem when they're really just symptoms of greater gameplay issues (hence many players dropping off at the level cap in MMORPGs because the game itself wasn't actually very good - they were just chasing the damn carrot like freakin' donkeys).

[gigawuts]

I've edited that post a whole bunch of times, one of the many times I click post well before I collected all my thoughts.

[kkow]

^isn't that what grinding implies? poor and cheap game design meant to artificially drag out content so people start jumping off bridges/complain on net forums?

[Zyrusticae]

Well, that's great. I will freely admit that I could be the exception as I didn't find hitting level 30 magically improved the game for me in any way, shape, or form.

[gigawuts]

I appreciate that much, usually people just dig in and say they're still not wrong.

You really didn't feel like there was suddenly more to do and more worth doing at level 30? You had the 3 hard free fields to do stuff in (all the best rares were in these areas too!), a whole bunch of client orders, and now even new classes.

Keep in mind that for most of us, 20-30 consisted largely of the same 3 quests: Normal desert exploration, Nab Rappy Capture, and Dragonkin Extermination. The three best quests available to us from 20-25. After that your options opened up to the rest of caves. So, for 10 solid levels, your best option for getting up to hard free field was...caves. Caves, caves, caves, caves, and caves. Not even good caves, no, you were fighting mostly yellow two legged alligators, then lava fish people, then dagans. Also occasionally the chest horn dinosaurs. I'm calling them all this because that's what they were to me at that time.

Of course, now we have better content, hard forest and caves exploration unlocks at 25, etc.

Not everyone farms in a 12 player MPA. I find it pretty boring and monotonous after a while. I can opt out of that though, so that's cool. But that did mean I spent considerably more time getting through those levels. After the new classes launched I went up to level 20 in around 16 hours without redeeming a bunch of CO's (edit: I mean higher level CO's, I've been sitting on a ton of mines CO's but don't want to see a big experience penalty when I turn them in so...I'm waiting until like 30). Here I am with that much time, if not more, and I'm bordering on 27. So, 20 levels in 16 hours, then less than 7 in another 16+. What? I mean, what? You really don't feel like there's a small difference there?

[Griffin]

Not to mention the game's completely free. It has taste and renown unlike most F2Ps.

[Ecchi]

Two means to making a mmo life spand longer.

1 make it longer to lvl.

2 more endgame content.

And seeing pso2 has no endgame content, 1 is a better option.

Its easy anyways....why complain.....ohwait pso players nvm I got it now....

More QQ posts, its endless in these forums.

[methaniel]

I appreciate that much, usually people just dig in and say they're still not wrong.

You really didn't feel like there was suddenly more to do and more worth doing at level 30? You had the 3 hard free fields to do stuff in (all the best rares were in these areas too!), a whole bunch of client orders, and now even new classes.

Keep in mind that for most of us, 20-30 consisted largely of the same 3 quests: Normal desert exploration, Nab Rappy Capture, and Dragonkin Extermination. The three best quests available to us from 20-25. After that your options opened up to the rest of caves. So, for 10 solid levels, your best option for getting up to hard free field was...caves. Caves, caves, caves, caves, and caves. Not even good caves, no, you were fighting mostly yellow two legged alligators, then lava fish people, then dagans. Also occasionally the chest horn dinosaurs. I'm calling them all this because that's what they were to me at that time.

Of course, now we have better content, hard forest and caves exploration unlocks at 25, etc.

Not everyone farms in a 12 player MPA. I find it pretty boring and monotonous after a while. I can opt out of that though, so that's cool. But that did mean I spent considerably more time getting through those levels. After the new classes launched I went up to level 20 in around 16 hours without redeeming a bunch of CO's (edit: I mean higher level CO's, I've been sitting on a ton of mines CO's but don't want to see a big experience penalty when I turn them in so...I'm waiting until like 30). Here I am with that much time, if not more, and I'm bordering on 27. So, 20 levels in 16 hours, then less than 7 in another 16+. What? I mean, what? You really don't feel like there's a small difference there?

I'm curious about one thing, but as it is right now, with the Tundra, Caves and Sky Islands being unlocked in normal mode, and the Hard free Fields accessible at 25 for the Forest, Volcano and Desert, what will it changes exactly to be level 25 or 30?
I sure understands why people complained before about the 20-30 grind cause of the lack of variety and all those Client Orders pending on you, yet not doable (though, the level up went so fast that I actually reached 30 for the first time faster than I thought and couldn't finish all I had planned to before hitting the first level cap).
But now, you have all the variety you need, you can fight with every monster in the game at level 20+. So what will getting to level 30 changes except an increase in stats, hence damage, HP and such...You can access Free Hard Fields for Tundra and after? I don't see that much difference with the normal ones.
The only point in Hard is that there is more rares (but the normal for Tundra and after being lv.20+, you can already get some, and lots of the new rares drop from level 16-17 ennemies). Right now, the only good point I see with being level 30+ is to go hunt as a gunner some rares I want in the Sky Islands Hard, that's all (and as a counterpart, I will lose my will to go farm normal forest/desert/volcano to get the rares you can only get there, since my level will be too strong for this area)

Also, the grind has been going so far at the same speed more or less. First day of the update, went from 18 to 21, next day 21 to 24, and yesterday 24 to 26, but I played less

[Zyrusticae]

[spoiler-box]I appreciate that much, usually people just dig in and say they're still not wrong.

You really didn't feel like there was suddenly more to do and more worth doing at level 30? You had the 3 hard free fields to do stuff in (all the best rares were in these areas too!), a whole bunch of client orders, and now even new classes.

Keep in mind that for most of us, 20-30 consisted largely of the same 3 quests: Normal desert exploration, Nab Rappy Capture, and Dragonkin Extermination. The three best quests available to us from 20-25. After that your options opened up to the rest of caves. So, for 10 solid levels, your best option for getting up to hard free field was...caves. Caves, caves, caves, caves, and caves. Not even good caves, no, you were fighting mostly yellow two legged alligators, then lava fish people, then dagans. Also occasionally the chest horn dinosaurs. I'm calling them all this because that's what they were to me at that time.

Of course, now we have better content, hard forest and caves exploration unlocks at 25, etc.

Not everyone farms in a 12 player MPA. I find it pretty boring and monotonous after a while. I can opt out of that though, so that's cool. But that did mean I spent considerably more time getting through those levels. After the new classes launched I went up to level 20 in around 16 hours without redeeming a bunch of CO's (edit: I mean higher level CO's, I've been sitting on a ton of mines CO's but don't want to see a big experience penalty when I turn them in so...I'm waiting until like 30). Here I am with that much time, if not more, and I'm bordering on 27. So, 20 levels in 16 hours, then less than 7 in another 16+. What? I mean, what? You really don't feel like there's a small difference there?[/spoiler-box]
Well, see, this is where we differ. I greatly enjoy running MPAs. Especially with Japanese players (language barriers are an extra layer of challenge!).

Actually, with my hunter, I leveled through most of 20-30 almost exclusively through emergency missions. I did it so fast that I couldn't finish my level 30 cap quest on time (resulting in running free desert most of the time with "EXP FULL"). Even before that, I was well-enough occupied running standard MPAs on my force. Just socializing made the time fly by.

For players who don't want to or don't like to do that, I can see how it's a problem. I still think it's weird that some players don't want to be social in a multiplayer game, but hey, whatever floats yer boat.

I just think it's silly to be surprised or dismayed when the game fails to cater to such players.

[NoiseHERO]

I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate doing client orders.

There's a good reason I play phantasy star and not EVERY OTHER MMO. Quests basically telling me that there's nothing to do in the game but kill monsters and collect the different crap that they drop. Fortunately it's fun in this game, but not fun enough for me to want to do them in a specific order or way with a certain weapon for mediocre EXP till you do them enough times.

That being said; Just killing monsters in general and participating in emergency missions you should hit the level cap on whatever class in a week. Not that I appreciate CO's like Clessi-chan's getting nerfed. If I wanna play with lower leveled players, I'll do it out of my own choice. Which I DO.

[Chik'Tikka]

I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate doing client orders.

There's a good reason I play phantasy star and not EVERY OTHER MMO. Quests basically telling me that there's nothing to do in the game but kill monsters and collect the different crap that they drop. Fortunately it's fun in this game, but not fun enough for me to want to do them in a specific order or way with a certain weapon for mediocre EXP till you do them enough time.

That being said; Just killing monsters and general and participating in emergency missions you should hit the level cap on whatever class in a week. Not that I appreciate CO's like Clessi-chan's getting nerfed. If I wanna play with lower leveled players, I'll do it out of my own choice. Which I DO.

this, i got to 40 on my ranger without doing anymore client orders then required to progress and unlock levels+^_^+ only recently have i actually started doing them and that's to level my force up, and they're mostly Lisa orders at that+^_^+

[gigawuts]

Well, see, this is where we differ. I greatly enjoy running MPAs. Especially with Japanese players (language barriers are an extra layer of challenge!).

Actually, with my hunter, I leveled through most of 20-30 almost exclusively through emergency missions. I did it so fast that I couldn't finish my level 30 cap quest on time (resulting in running free desert most of the time with "EXP FULL"). Even before that, I was well-enough occupied running standard MPAs on my force. Just socializing made the time fly by.

For players who don't want to or don't like to do that, I can see how it's a problem. I still think it's weird that some players don't want to be social in a multiplayer game, but hey, whatever floats yer boat.

I just think it's silly to be surprised or dismayed when the game fails to cater to such players.

Playing with four people, twelve people, and no people are all very different experiences and not mutually exclusive in a game, nor should they be limited by eachother. The game should not require playing with twelve people to progress at a reasonable pace, that's just ridiculous considering most content can't be done with twelve people. Far more notable than that, since the cap is still relatively low, without these new classes lower level blocks are tumbleweed city. So yeah, needing 12 players to progress at a reasonable pace, good luck when there aren't even 12 players to MPA with. That results in a disproportionate amount of work (because that IS what it becomes, when you know you're spending way longer than you normally would need to) being required to level up through the level bracket 12 players breeze right through.

Given that this is a F2P game, I'm surprised you feel Sega shouldn't be trying to cater at least in part to every potential paying customer. This isn't pay to play anymore, they need to entice people now. Fortunately they realize that, since they're listening to feedback and smoothening things out for people who don't like doing 12 player MPA's mindlessly for hours on end. In fact, they're listening to player feedback in lots of ways, which is a very welcome change to Sega's old tune. Or maybe this is how it always was in the JP versions, in which case I feel like I really missed out in past games.

[eharima]

I agree with the consensus that vjaya, charge vulcans and shot would be a lot more fun money sink than dodo.......
That and a casino.
Come on Sega read my survey!

[Arika]

This game is already one of the easiest game to cap in my mmo experience so far. I don't think they should make it easier anymore. They only need to make it more fun while grind. A nd they did well.

[Stormwalker]

For my part, I'm pleased with the changes. Sure, I can't do Cressida's and Franka's client orders as often, but before I couldn't do most of Cressida's client orders at *all* before level 30 because Rookie Gunslash Usage requires access to Free Forest to unlock, and it's her *fourth* client order in the progression, blocking access to all the later ones.

When levelling your first class from 20-30, not having access to those other client orders at all meant having to spam the same three forest CO's every day. Now THAT was a grind.

Now, I have access to the Forest, Caves, Desert free fields at 25, which removes that roadblock five levels sooner, as well as having normal Tundra and later levels at level 20, almost doubling the amount of options I have for levelling up between 20 and 30.

From my perspective, it looks pretty good.

[youcantcatchtheblue]

I feel cheated that nobody bothered telling me about Franka's exploit =( I could have been 40/40/40 by now *cry* :(

[jooozek]

If you can call switching classes to collect quest items for the orders an exploit then just what would be buying the quest items from player shops? lol

[BIG OLAF]

"Harder"? Hell no. Normal Mines gives so much EXP, I was leveling damn fast last night (multiparty pending).

I already feel like how I did when AOTI PSU players would bitch about the game being "hard" when they never even played the unforgiving 'vanilla' PSU.

[IzzyData]

I feel cheated that nobody bothered telling me about Franka's exploit =( I could have been 40/40/40 by now *cry* :(

I don't know if it makes sense to call it an exploit. The quests were set as dailies so people did them daily.

[Z-0]

Normal Mines gives so much EXP
And Tundra gives more before level 23 because of EXP scaling. :wacko:
Did some testing and found out that if an enemy is 5 levels higher than you, you get less EXP. Got 29 EXP from a 24 Gulfur and 25 EXP from a 25 Gulfur at level 20.

[Sierhiet]

I already feel like how I did when AOTI PSU players would bitch about the game being "hard" when they never even played the unforgiving 'vanilla' PSU.

Agreed.

[DARKWINGDARA]

honestly, the grinding is fast, but it's just very bland. and that's the problem. you see the same fucking area(s) for 10 hours. TENNNNNN.
if it was more versatile/different it might actually make me come back to try shit out. but as it is i just can't get myself to grind 20-30 BECAUSE of how tedious and bland it was/is.

[Triple_S]

Here's another way they made the 20-30 grind take longer!

They made emergency missions have a chance to show up every 30 minutes instead of every hour... but there's a catch.

100% more emergency missions, 500% more Big Vahder's shit EXP payout!

[Ezodagrom]

honestly, the grinding is fast, but it's just very bland. and that's the problem. you see the same fucking area(s) for 10 hours. TENNNNNN.
if it was more versatile/different it might actually make me come back to try shit out. but as it is i just can't get myself to grind 20-30 BECAUSE of how tedious and bland it was/is.
If you're talking about only having 4 forest quests and 1 caves quest at lvl 20~25 and only having 2 caves quests and 3 desert quests at lvl 25~30, that was changed in the last update.

Now, other than the quests that were available before the update at lvl 20~30, there's also the tundra and mines normal mode at lvl 20~25, and there's the forest, caves and desert hard mode free fields and the floating continent normal mode at lvl 25~30.

[Zorafim]

I already feel like how I did when AOTI PSU players would bitch about the game being "hard" when they never even played the unforgiving 'vanilla' PSU.

I remember pounding on the same enemy for three minutes before it would die. That enemy was a pig. A normal, stinking pig.


Looking at the changes made to the game... I don't think there's a problem anymore. From what I can tell, matter boards can be filled out ten levels earlier, giving you more stuff to do at an earlier level. Free Roam areas are five levels lower, meaning at worse there's only five levels to grind through instead of ten. Really... Even if it was harder to get through the 20s, there's less reason to now. The whole reason to hit 30 was to unlock new stuff. Now that the stuff is unlocked earlier, there's no reason to grind!

[Triple_S]

I remember pounding on the same enemy for three minutes before it would die. That enemy was a pig. A normal, stinking pig.


Looking at the changes made to the game... I don't think there's a problem anymore. From what I can tell, matter boards can be filled out ten levels earlier, giving you more stuff to do at an earlier level. Free Roam areas are five levels lower, meaning at worse there's only five levels to grind through instead of ten. Really... Even if it was harder to get through the 20s, there's less reason to now. The whole reason to hit 30 was to unlock new stuff. Now that the stuff is unlocked earlier, there's no reason to grind!

Yeah, the 20-30 grind isn't bad at all. Emergency missions are far more common, there are more fields to access, and of course getting more Matter Board stuff done takes your mind off of the grinding.

It feels like Emergency Codes are far more common too. S'pretty great, not just because of the EXP payout, but because things get chaotic and it's a great way to change things up.

[The Walrus]

I remember pounding on the same enemy for three minutes before it would die. That enemy was a pig. A normal, stinking pig.


Looking at the changes made to the game... I don't think there's a problem anymore. From what I can tell, matter boards can be filled out ten levels earlier, giving you more stuff to do at an earlier level. Free Roam areas are five levels lower, meaning at worse there's only five levels to grind through instead of ten. Really... Even if it was harder to get through the 20s, there's less reason to now. The whole reason to hit 30 was to unlock new stuff. Now that the stuff is unlocked earlier, there's no reason to grind!

The whole reason to get to 30 now is for the new classes.

[Z-0]

Just a shame you get 6 EXP per level 38 enemy at level 20! The increased Emergency Mission rate doesn't really help make the 20-30 grind faster really, since the EXP is less than the free fields you can play in. All the Emergency Missions have level 36+ enemies on Hard (except Ragne City), so using the argument of extra EQs doesn't really work.

Only the addition of normal Free Fields around your level is what makes the grind faster. Free Forest / Caves / Desert would give reduced EXP since the enemies are quite high (32+ or something).

Although, the EXP Scaling feature doesn't hurt as much towards the end of the 20-30 grind.

[Triple_S]

Just a shame you get 6 EXP per level 38 enemy at level 20! The increased Emergency Mission rate doesn't really help make the 20-30 grind faster really, since the EXP is less than the free fields you can play in. All the Emergency Missions have level 36+ enemies on Hard (except Ragne City), so using the argument of extra EQs doesn't really work.

Yes, 20-25 does not benefit from the emergency missions much. 25-30, however, does.

[Kinujou]

Just a shame you get 6 EXP per level 38 enemy at level 20! The increased Emergency Mission rate doesn't really help make the 20-30 grind faster really, since the EXP is less than the free fields you can play in. All the Emergency Missions have level 36+ enemies on Hard (except Ragne City), so using the argument of extra EQs doesn't really work.

Only the addition of normal Free Fields around your level is what makes the grind faster. Free Forest / Caves / Desert would give reduced EXP since the enemies are quite high (32+ or something).

Although, the EXP Scaling feature doesn't hurt as much towards the end of the 20-30 grind.

cant you just go to normal?

more exp since the mobs are lower leveled, easier to kill since the mobs are lower level, which means you kill more then you would've in hard, and in cases of PSE burst....welll...yeah.

[Zyrusticae]

What? Are you guys just completely ignoring the EXP rewards from emergency codes? Because that's where all the real XP is (and has been, ever since the beginning of the game). The XP from killing monsters is just plain piddly compared to that.

[Jakosifer]

STAP IT STAAAAP IT STAAAAAP!
/channeling jerseyshorewhore

But srsly. 20-30 is easier than it was before, being able to fight enemies higher than level 25, and in a field with many more Codes, is much better than running around in Nav Rappy for 20-25, and much better than Caves 1 and that dreadful Free Desert normal.

[Triple_S]

What? Are you guys just completely ignoring the EXP rewards from emergency codes? Because that's where all the real XP is (and has been, ever since the beginning of the game). The XP from killing monsters is just plain piddly compared to that.

I agree. That's why I like Emergency Missions so much.

Codes, codes everywhere. I didn't bring that up in my last post because I was not sure if they scaled well, if at all.

[Flame]

I already feel like how I did when AOTI PSU players would bitch about the game being "hard" when they never even played the unforgiving 'vanilla' PSU.

whoa whoa whoa

If a game isn't fun to play, it doesn't change anything that the previous entry was less fun. How is this a compelling argument?

[Nevlan]

hello guys, im Belian, from ship 2 (new player since...yesterday)

ik the pain of lvl up when u reach X lvl, but its like pso, remember? after 50 or 80... its more harder and harder.
dont think on that!, just be with friends...have fun!. and soon u will reach the lvl u want.

and remember, the game its new.. give him time :D

[jooozek]

All fine and dandy but in PSO you didn't have to keep up with bullshit like low level cap, levelling one class to play some other class (!).

[Nevlan]

same sys as psu and psp... its fun, in PSO, if u wanted a ranger... u needed to create a NEW character....

here, its almost the same, but u keep the same character, the only thing that u do is... change class.


and lvl cap... remember, the game its new still.... :)

[jooozek]

So you are saying that instead of having to create a new character, creating a new character AND leveling some other class to get access to class you actually want is better? what

[gigawuts]

So you are saying that instead of having to create a new character, creating a new character AND leveling some other class to get access to class you actually want is better? what

Oh, the "why bother playing a class if you don't have amazing stats" thing. Uh oh.

[jooozek]

Oh, the "why bother playing a class if you don't have amazing stats" thing. Uh oh.

God forbid optimising but bullshit like being forced to play classes that you don't want is fine right. You know why would I want also to start a new character instead of levelling the class? There is much more to do on your first run.

[angrysquid]

I am amazed by the people ranting about Lvl Cap CO,COs in general and having to lvl up multiple classes and simultaneously about having nothing to do in game..o_o;

[gigawuts]

God forbid optimising but bullshit like being forced to play classes that you don't want is fine right. You know why would I want also to start a new character instead of levelling the class? There is much more to do on your first run.

What are you actually talking about?

[jooozek]

What are you actually talking about?

Actually, what were YOU talking about?

[gigawuts]

I thought you were trying to say a class isn't worth playing on a character without optimum stats. Like, you would refuse to play ranger on a human, or even male cast.

I've got a male cast (which is redundant to say, but not the point), and I do good damage with hunter and ranger, and even my force's damage is passable. For a while I was all "Oh my god such bad stats I MUST make a newearl" but couldn't decide on a look for a newearl, said fuck it, went FOcast as a non-joke option. And you know what? It's not even close to bad.

[Mystil]

What are you actually talking about?

I kinda understand jooozek's feelings on this.

If the subclass is going to be the way I think it is, it's going to be chore for those who just wants to stay their main class.

[jooozek]

I thought you were trying to say a class isn't worth playing on a character without optimum stats. Like, you would refuse to play ranger on a human, or even male cast.

I've got a male cast (which is redundant to say, but not the point), and I do good damage with hunter and ranger, and even my force's damage is passable. For a while I was all "Oh my god such bad stats I MUST make a newearl" but couldn't decide on a look for a newearl, said fuck it, went FOcast as a non-joke option. And you know what? It's not even close to bad.

I'm not saying it isn't worth playing, if you want to play like that, that's fine by me. I don't mind the client orders for unlocking classes itself. It's the dumb idea of them having a requirement of playing a previous "main class" to get them activated, and then having to play that "main class" to unlock them. Personally, I can't stand the idea of being forced to suffer playing ranger anymore to just unlock Gunner and just why doesn't unlocking classes on one character unlock them globally for the whole account? There is so many flaws in it that cripple everyone but people that play a single character.

And you can't just shrug off base stats, same goes for mags. They are what allows you to equip stuff, as a FOcast you will need lots of T-ATK to just equip the best 5* rod/talis. And last update has shown that they won't compensate for stuff like re-hauling totally the formula for damage of your mags.

[Agitated_AT]

Poor joozek finally complaining about something.

At the end of the day striving for a new class is strivign to play the same game with a slight different experience. Really the fact you're so busy with idea of wanting to reach the class so much makes it seem that you just don't find much interest in replaying the game.

The whole idea of the implimentation is to keep early content in the game crouded with people so new players will always find someone to team up with. It is a very smart thing in my opinion and as a techer now, i've found a party at every occasion I did a mission.

It's also there for replayibility. If it doesn't make you happy to play the game another 30 lvls to reach another class, then there mustb e something wrong with either you or the game itself. With things like this people are supposed to be happy to have a purpose to play over again, if that is not the case for you, then you are probably playing for the wrong reason. Because you should be playing for the area and teaming up experience. That should be the part at any time that should make you keep coming back, not the fact there is some goal that will minorly change the experience that you didn't find much fun to begin with.

[jooozek]

Your definition of replayability is certainly worrisome. The replay value is decided by the player itself, and not by the company that forcedly shoves something in your face without asking you about your opinion if you want to actually get some replayability :-D No, really. I wouldn't mind playing Gunner from 0 to 40 and that would be for me great replay value, but grinding that damn boring ranger to just get to it? :-?

[Triple_S]

Your definition of replayability is certainly worrisome. The replay value is decided by the player itself, and not by the company that forcedly shoves something in your face without asking you about your opinion if you want to actually get some replayability :-D No, really. I wouldn't mind playing Gunner from 0 to 40 and that would be for me great replay value, but grinding that damn boring ranger to just get to it? :-?

Here's what I thought would have been a much better idea:

You must get at least ONE class to level 30 on a character before that character can use any of the new classes. However, once that happens, all three are available to use.

[gigawuts]

I'm not saying it isn't worth playing, if you want to play like that, that's fine by me. I don't mind the client orders for unlocking classes itself. It's the dumb idea of them having a requirement of playing a previous "main class" to get them activated, and then having to play that "main class" to unlock them. Personally, I can't stand the idea of being forced to suffer playing ranger anymore to just unlock Gunner and just why doesn't unlocking classes on one character unlock them globally for the whole account? There is so many flaws in it that cripple everyone but people that play a single character.

And you can't just shrug off base stats, same goes for mags. They are what allows you to equip stuff, as a FOcast you will need lots of T-ATK to just equip the best 5* rod/talis. And last update has shown that they won't compensate for stuff like re-hauling totally the formula for damage of your mags.

Yeah, the class thing is pretty dumb.

I can't just shrug off base stats, huh? Watch me :-?

After gear and mags the discrepancies between the best and worst combos is nothing to be worried about. I'm sporting a sadeel rod, 454 t-atk requirement I believe, idk it's nbd,

[jooozek]

Yeah, the class thing is pretty dumb.

I can't just shrug off base stats, huh? Watch me :-?

After gear and mags the discrepancies between the best and worst combos is nothing to be worried about. I'm sporting a sadeel rod, 454 t-atk requirement I believe, idk it's nbd,

Without getting a totally new mag exclusively for that class to compensate base stats you wouldn't be able to equip it unless you gimped your skill tree totally, that's why I'm saying, you can't really "shrug it off".

[gigawuts]

So...buy a mag?

Everyone needs multiple mags to equip everything on each class.

[jooozek]

As I said, I'd rather buy a new character slot, if I want to optimise, I want to do it the optimal way (lol).

[gigawuts]

So are you saying playing a second class is optimizing? Because I play all the classes.

Also weren't you super loving ranger a while back?

[Punisher106]

I personally grind off of E-trials. They give a generous amount of exp, especially the framerate-killing DISTRACTIO-- I mean Destruction ones.

[jooozek]

So are you saying playing a second class is optimizing? Because I play all the classes.

Also weren't you super loving ranger a while back?

No, playing another class is about wanting to play that class. If I want to play that new class, I want to play it to experience some different gameplay. Being forced to go through gameplay that while might be related but isn't exactly the same and is boring to me isn't really the definition of fun. Don't clump together "optimising" and "playing a different class" as one, they are split for me. If I wanted to HURR DURR STEAMROLL now I'd prolly go with fonewearl but that's not the point.

Ranger was the first class I've played in this game, I've loved the TPS mode and shit but after you play hunter and force you want to throw up on the thought of going back to launcher and rifle.

[redroses]

I have to agree with jooozek.

I find it quite annoying that I have to play as a class that I don't want to, to reach the class that I want to play as. Especially, if this class is just an alternate class. For me, it becomes such a chore if I have to go through 30 levels of Hunter if all I want to do is really play Fighter. The leveling will just feel much longer and harder to do because you don't really want to play hunter and you just want to get it behind you asap.

It will become even more horrible, when subclasses come out, you want to do something like Gunner/Techer. I really would love to try out such a combo, but I don't know if I can stand leveling so many levels on classes I don't want to play.

I personally wouldn't have made a lv req. at all for the new classes, and if, then lv 10 is more then enough, in my opionion. Like that you spend some time on the older classes, it's fast to reach lv 10, which would mean combining the new classes for subclassing wouldn't take forever, and I just find lv 10 to be nice level for class unlocking/switching.

[gigawuts]

No, playing another class is about wanting to play that class. If I want to play that new class, I want to play it to experience some different gameplay. Being forced to go through gameplay that while might be related but isn't exactly the same and is boring to me isn't really the definition of fun. Don't clump together "optimising" and "playing a different class" as one, they are split for me. If I wanted to HURR DURR STEAMROLL now I'd prolly go with fonewearl but that's not the point.

Ranger was the first class I've played in this game, I've loved the TPS mode and shit but after you play hunter and force you want to throw up on the thought of going back to launcher and rifle.

I see. I didn't find creating a new char worth the trouble of a smidge of atk, when really atk doesn't matter too much here. I still haven't even +10'd a rare weapon, and probably won't for a long time.

[dablacksephiroth]

This thread is only worth the popcorn when there is disagreement.

Stop kissing and making up. More drama!

[supersonix9]

It's not harder, it's just different.

[Lumpen Thingy]

the only thing hard is the 20-25 gap everything else leveling up wise seems easier to me