Would this game benefit from becoming harder?

[Agitated_AT]

Now first let me make one thing clear. When I talk about harder I always exclude the bosses in that statement. The bosses are excellent and the best part of the game.

So the question: Would this game be better if it became a little harder?

But all the other enemies, mostly feel like fodder imo. It's because they're just not agressive enough or only agressive when they want to.

PSO2 has a syndrome of only being hard at specific situations so that satisfaction lasts very little. I don't know about you guys, but I simply LOVE the game when it get's tense. Desert/Mines time attack is a great example of this.

Now this thread isn't just a question, I wanna see how many people actually aprove of this, so vote in the upcoming poll so we can see how many people actually agree with the statement.

[eharima]

Yeah just make dodo's rng worse.
Sounds like a great plan ;p

[Triple_S]

I think it needs to be more difficult, but more based on skill rather than the series standard of "Higher difficulty = more HP and instant-kill moves everywhere." Now that our movement is so fluid, the "miss" factor is removed, and we just have so many more options, it's about time the enemies gained those options as well.

The Banthers give me quite a challenge as a Ranger, though. I honestly have yet to solo either version...

[Crimera]

So wait, you are a ranger? And you think the game could use a difficulty boost?


No wonder.......


:3

[Agitated_AT]

The reason why it's so easy as a ranger is because even from close combat enemies aren't really agressive, let alone from a range, they won't touch you at all.

The remedy for this is really just more agressive enemies that come at you... like the bosses and especially banshee and banther as triple S mentioned.

Going against few enemies would still not cause trouble but against a mob it would. The ranger's biggest enemy however is a ranged enemy itself like u find mostly at mines. They need to make more of those to balance out the threat for each class. Of course having both sorts at every area is the best way to go.

Anyway, the results certainly surprise me :)

[gigawuts]

Ranged enemies are disproportionately more challenging to melee classes than they are to ranged classes, with lower r-def and a need to travel to the target to even hit it to any real effect.

If you want a challenge stop playing a ranged class.

[Coatl]

An enemy that I believe has a good design are the signo beats. They dash towards you and laser slash you. Their slashes are so quick there is a good chance you won't avoid it. The problem is that signo beats are VERY weak. If you are melee, you stunlock them to death lol. If you are range, you shoot zonde or divine launcher and they die.

I don't understand the logic in saying to switch to melee class if you want a challenge. Does that mean Ranger and Force classes can't enjoy the game without changing to an underpowered class?

What they need are more enemies with ingenius design like the signo beat. Or you know, we could have back the Sinow Zoas.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/items/SINOW_ZOA-WITHOUTBARS.jpg

[Squire Grooktook]

The game is mad fun as it is, which says something about how good the core combat is. But yeah it could be EVEN BETTER if it was harder.

More aggression is definitely needed. Many of the melee enemies have this really... weird ai. They just sorta walk into your attacking range and...stand there. Then after 3 seconds they throw out maybe one melee attack that is easy to dodge if you have any kind of non atrophied reflexes. That should DEFINITELY BE FIXED.

I'd also definitely like more enemies with ranged attacks. I feel that you're just a little too safe if you just back off and play it safe.

And lastly, from a Hunter stand point, I'd make a few minor tweaks to the skill tree abilities. I'd nerf or remove Step Advance entirely. I think it's way too forgiving and sloppy that you can evade an attack IN THE WRONG DIRECTION and still not get hit. I'd also make Just Guard harder to do. 30 frames window is also too forgiving, and very easy to do if you'v seen the attack your trying to JG before.

[dablacksephiroth]

In these action games that share a group with both a Ranger and a Mage, enemy difficulty at best is felt most by the melee players. But even that gets negated when and if their melee can use Block with 100% damage reduction.

Increasing difficulty in regular groups of enemies would require more targetting on the Mage class, and giving abilities to the enemies with much wider Area of Effect and charging/tackling abilities so overwhelming the Ranged players can't do their job and get angry at the Melee who supposedly can grab their threat, but fail.

In games that do perform this mechanic, what does this always lead to? No one wanting to group with the useless Melee. Always being told "Lrn2play". And even those who DO know how to play are dubbed newbz because the average melee player isn't as hardcore a player as they believe themselves or are expected, and equally receive the boot.

Would this game benefit though? It sure would make roaming into Multi-Party areas (when no one else is in there but yourself) more frightening/annoying to our casuals.

Bad enough they can't level passed 21 because it's SO HARD.

Oops! Did I say that out roud??


Anywayyyy... Very Hard mode and Ultimate Mode. Don't care if all it brought was more speed to the enemies in the past, that's still decent difficulty and we don't know what they've got planned for tweaks in the A.I. in those settings. Also we have not met with HEAVY Technique casting enemies yet. Those will be wonderful. Better than these silly Laser bats that love to snipe in Floating Continent.

[Kierto]

Cringe to say it but I almost miss the PSO BoomaAI-charge-and-wave-arm method over the pathetic DaganDance.

Mines mobs show some promise in variety and tactics at least.. Shame they still aren't a threat.

Let's wait for the reskinned Set Sadinian to show up as a Delsaber!

[Mystil]

..If this game was so easy, even for ranged classes, then I shouldnt be seeing people dying 4-5 times in the same area and in short intervals..

[FOnewearl-Lina]

..If this game was so easy, even for ranged classes, then I shouldnt be seeing people dying 4-5 times in the same area and in short intervals..

No you shouldn't...

[Squire Grooktook]

IMO, the game isn't easy. It's just not hard. It's kinda just normal action adventure level challenge.

The thing is, when you combine that with the rpg structure, and the few penalties for dieing, it becomes noticeable.

[gigawuts]

Well it goes from easy to omgjesuschrist levels of burst damage. I wish they'd find a way to make it challenging without resorting to stunlock and insane burst damage.

[Mystil]

..So lets say they do all of this. No body is gonna bitch and moan afterwards right? Like with PSU ? >_>

[Agitated_AT]

..If this game was so easy, even for ranged classes, then I shouldnt be seeing people dying 4-5 times in the same area and in short intervals..

Be more specific. Where and what exactly kills these people?


Well it goes from easy to omgjesuschrist levels of burst damage. I wish they'd find a way to make it challenging without resorting to stunlock and insane burst damage.

Exactly, there is no progressive difficulty increase. It's totally random. It should consistently get harder with each new area, not just specific threatening situations as it is now. It's like "yes i'm finally at a new area". (a few minutes later) "Ok so this is it? Let me progress fast to the next area. It must be better over there." (few hours later) "Uhh, ok" and so forth. With random I mean emergency quest bosses and the bosses themselves generally. I feel that I enjoy the game ALOT more at those particular moments

[gigawuts]

There's basically only three situations where I get concerned in this game.

1. A Quartz Dragon has spawned
2. A Banther has spawned
3. Twelve Set Sadinians have spawned, I've been jostle-stunned by a 1 damage hit, and they all randomly rolled to attack me at once and oh great here they come yeah I'm dead I just died to trash mobs great thanks for adding stunlock Sega brilliant idea.

[Squire Grooktook]

The Darkers mobs in the city are actually pretty fun to fight if you get all the different types of them at once imo.

El Dagon mobs with projectile attacks surrounding you + Breada flying around evasively and shooting homing poison at you + Kataragot's off in the far distance sniping with psybeam. Solo'ing that shit with Hunter forces you to really be aware of your surroundings. Especially since they can combo you to death in one hit if you do fail to dodge any of that.

[Agitated_AT]

The Darkers mobs in the city are actually pretty fun to fight if you get all the different types of them at once imo.

El Dagon mobs with projectile attacks surrounding you + Breada flying around evasively and shooting homing poison at you + Kataragot's off in the far distance sniping with psybeam. Solo'ing that shit with Hunter forces you to really be aware of your surroundings. Especially since they can combo you to death in one hit if you do fail to dodge any of that.

See exactly. How many times do you encounter such situations per run? I'd say probably twice or 3 times max.


IMO, the game isn't easy. It's just not hard. It's kinda just normal action adventure level challenge.
I don't find this statement very accurate. Would you agree with that the game is 60% of the time easy, 30% normal and 10% hard?

[Enforcer MKV]

3. Twelve Set Sadinians have spawned, I've been jostle-stunned by a 1 damage hit, and they all randomly rolled to attack me at once and oh great here they come yeah I'm dead I just died to trash mobs great thanks for adding stunlock Sega brilliant idea.

Is it bad that I laughed at this? Because it was really funny. :wacko:

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't find this statement very accurate. Would you agree with that the game is 60% of the time easy, 30% normal and 10% hard?
I dunno maybe. I haven't really thought much about percentages. My general experience is that if I stay focused and play good, I don't die outside of the occasional dangerous set up or situation. But if I stop paying attention or do stupid stuff, I can lose my entire life bar pretty fast.

This is probably largely influenced by my set up of attempting to play a glass cannon Hunter with outdated armor and running missions with 3 under leveled ai's.

[gigawuts]

Is it bad that I laughed at this? Because it was really funny. :wacko:

It's okay, I laugh too. If I don't I might get angry about it.

[Laxedrane]

The problem with this game compared to other PSOs. Is it's not that easy to get swarmed. Even in elimination blocks enemies do not swarm you quickly enough. El dagans(Breeda babies) are probably the most aggressive none boss in my opinion. And man, if your alone those things will get in your business and fuck you up.
1 need to be more aggressive, and 2 something needs to scale based on how many people are in the BLOCK(Not the map). Either hp or defense.

Some other ways to make the game harder I can think of that wouldn't be too stupid.

-Make enemies actively try to combo with each other. I remember in a rare moment when wolves sometimes would hit me from all directions knocking me into red or killing me. Possibly have enemies go for a shot on the same player once an enemy has successfully landed one hit.

-Have enemies that have attacks specifically designed to knock players on their asses when air born and/or deals extra damage to air born player. Possibly add a special hate mechanic that makes these type of enemies that have their hate levels go up significantly from jumping.

These types of enemies are especially needed for rangers and gunners.

-Bring back leaders from psu, not only was it a really cool aesthetic. But actually make them act like leaders. Have all their followers specifically attack whomever the leader tell them too. Possibly have them organized into formations when a leader is around. Actively try to flank or surround players at the leaders behest.

Just some ideas.

The really big issue in my opinion is monsters need to swarm people more and the fact that in MPAs they die just way too fast.

[Spellbinder]

I think what the game needs is Very Hard and Ultimate mode. I never expected "challenge" from Normal and Hard to begin with. Having said that, I'm in it simply for the fun.

[dablacksephiroth]

In this thread, we want to die before reaching the boss and want the boss to have the A.I. of Monster Hunter/God Eater and has the skill to cast Ultima which drops all players health to 1HP and reduces healing by 100% for 30 seconds.

We also want to work 7 times harder for that 0.000001% chance the enemy will drop a much desired rare item that Doo-Doo will refuse to allow a much desired ability to be placed and a grind beyond +3.

We want 'Jump', 'Block', 'Evade', and 'Run' to be removed. Walk at all times.

1 Moon Atomizer per player per run.

[Squire Grooktook]

In this thread, we want to die before reaching the boss and want the boss to have the A.I. of Monster Hunter/God Eater and has the skill to cast Ultima which drops all players health to 1HP and reduces healing by 100% for 30 seconds.

So long as you can dodge Ultima, yes. Yes I would like that.



We want 'Jump', 'Block', 'Evade', and 'Run' to be removed. Walk at all times.

Hell no.

[kkow]

remove ja stunlock srsly sega. or at least have it percentage based.
also bring back better spell caster/ranged mobs. i remember in psp where if i got hit by a frost spell, it would have like a stupid 60% proc rate of ice cubing you. and then i would helplessly watch from my icecube prison as all the mobs happily munch on me.

[Geistritter]

To people saying the game is only easy for Rangers, it isn't. It's too easy in general. Enemies die too fast, are too stupid, and there aren't enough of them. I can solo absolutely all of the content that doesn't require a party in the game with either Hunter or Ranger, and the only reason I can't do it with a Force is because I don't like playing as one and thus can't vouch for my ability with it, but given that it's the most powerful class in the game by far, I think I could manage it.

The reason the game is too easy, though, is to appeal to people who either wouldn't be able to handle a harder game, or refuse to adapt themselves to do so.

Thus, given how the difficulties in this game were more of an afterthought than something integral to the gameplay, I think that higher difficulties should have enemies the same level, with the same drop tables, as lower ones, but feature enemies with more HP, perhaps that deal more damage, but have, say, slightly increased drop rates. That way, those of us who want something legitimately challenging, yet know better than to expect better actual enemy AI, can get it, but without hampering the enjoyment of less skilled players.

[Geistritter]

We also want to work 7 times harder for that 0.000001% chance the enemy will drop a much desired rare item that Doo-Doo will refuse to allow a much desired ability to be placed and a grind beyond +3.

We want 'Jump', 'Block', 'Evade', and 'Run' to be removed. Walk at all times.

1 Moon Atomizer per player per run.

Also, these are all atrocious ideas.

[Squire Grooktook]

The reason the game is too easy, though, is to appeal to people who either wouldn't be able to handle a harder game, or refuse to adapt themselves to do so.

Honestly, I think it has less to do with "HURF DURF LET'S APPEAL TO CASUALS WHO WON'T PAY FOR ARKS CASH ANYWAY" and more to do with the fact that's in an unfinished game, built around a large number of random elements, that is still being tweaked and balanced.

[Zyrusticae]

Actually, I think the reason it's balanced the way it is now is because they tweaked the game based on early feedback where players were both not high level and also not nearly as well-equipped as they are now. If you balance things to be challenging when players are running around with bottom-of-the-barrel gear, it's not going to remain challenging when they're kitted out with full soul affixes + power/tech/shoot III all over.

That being said, the full multiparties clearly are in need of some kind of boost, whether it's in global enemy HP when more than one full party is present in a game or just more spawns in general.

[Agitated_AT]

In this thread, we want to die before reaching the boss and want the boss to have the A.I. of Monster Hunter/God Eater and has the skill to cast Ultima which drops all players health to 1HP and reduces healing by 100% for 30 seconds.

We also want to work 7 times harder for that 0.000001% chance the enemy will drop a much desired rare item that Doo-Doo will refuse to allow a much desired ability to be placed and a grind beyond +3.

We want 'Jump', 'Block', 'Evade', and 'Run' to be removed. Walk at all times.

1 Moon Atomizer per player per run.

No not really. In this game, we don't want to die because of playing laid back from all the easy mobs and then suddenly getting attacked by strong mobs/bosses that u only encounter 1/10 times. We want to feel like the game challenges and forces us to play good so when we die, it's not because we almost fel asleep, not because by accident. I don't know if you ever play challenging games, but this is extremely satisfying. When a game starts and stays tense after the learning curve, it can have an incredbible impact on the player's experience.

You see this is a no brainer. In other words, you're post kind of proves you have no brains.

[FOnewearl-Lina]

That being said, the full multiparties clearly are in need of some kind of boost, whether it's in global enemy HP when more than one full party is present in a game or just more spawns in general.

More spawns please! Packed close together so they all die just as fast!

[Geistritter]

Honestly, I think it has less to do with "HURF DURF LET'S APPEAL TO CASUALS WHO WON'T PAY FOR ARKS CASH ANYWAY"

You're reading into that way more than was merited.

Most people aren't good at video games, whether they pay money or not. Making the game easier appeals to people who fall into this category, which increases your potential user base. It's really that simple.

[Dan Maku]

Very Hard mode is just over the hill. Just stick tight. :3

[Squire Grooktook]

You're reading into that way more than was merited.

Most people aren't good at video games, whether they pay money or not. Making the game easier appeals to people who fall into this category, which increases your potential user base. It's really that simple.

I'm not trying to read into it, I just don't think that the game was intentionally made as unbalanced as it is.

Besides, I disagree. I think that making the game too easy kills longevity. If you make your game into a button mash fest where it's impossible to die, then there's really nothing to do but grind. Eventually people will get bored and leave.

Sega designed a really great combat system otherwise. I don't think they'd make a mistake as basic as this.

[Flame]

you guys are full of crap, I bet everyone here dies all the time. And you know what, I'm glad everytime I see a player die because reviving a team mate is the best feeling there is.

[Squire Grooktook]

I sometimes die several times per play session. Depends on what I'm doing though.

And I beat Contra 3 on hard without taking a hit. So don't play the "you're obviously just bad card".

[Coatl]

I die all the time because I am always chatting with my team and smacking enemies lol. I don''t care for taking damage when I can resta it all back.
Game is too casual to take serious when doing anything besides fighting a boss.

[Geistritter]

You'd be losing some money on that bet, champ.


Besides, I disagree. I think that making the game too easy kills longevity. If you make your game into a button mash fest where it's impossible to die, then there's really nothing to do but grind. Eventually people will get bored and leave.

Sega designed a really great combat system otherwise. I don't think they'd make a mistake as basic as this.

They made mistakes as basic as "release an unfinished game", "make rare weapons that are frequently weaker than other options at their level", "give no incentive whatsoever to use the PA combo system over just spamming the most effective PAs", "give the healing and burst damage class unlimited ammunition", among others. And even by your own theory, they made a mistake as basic as "released an unintentionally unbalanced game", so you're giving them too much credit if you ask me.

Appealing to the lowest common denominator is also the most common business tactic, though; if they intended for the game's difficulty to catch up with players' current strength levels, the last content update wouldn't have been a bunch of reskinned enemies with no adjustment to the way the game works. Their attempt at longevity is very clearly not difficulty, or future difficulty, but staggered content, the dangling of the carrot and the promise that if you stick around, there will be new stuff. It was the same mistake that they made with Phantasy Star Universe, and given that they're behaving exactly the same way (with the sole difference being that that game's difficulty started out as being the exact opposite of this one's; enemies too way, way too long to kill, for example) there's no reason whatsoever to believe they've learned to do otherwise.

[dablacksephiroth]

No not really. In this game, we don't want to die because of playing laid back from all the easy mobs and then suddenly getting attacked by strong mobs/bosses that u only encounter 1/10 times. We want to feel like the game challenges and forces us to play good so when we die, it's because we almost fel asleep, not because by accident. I don't know if you ever play challenging games, but this is extremely satisfying. When a game starts and stays tense after the learning curve, it can have an incredbible impact on the player's experience.

You see this is a no brainer. In other words, you're post kind of proves you have no brains.

Jee.. thanks, Captain Obvious! That was quite the "no-brainer" response I'd been looking for, hypocrite!

Take a picture of yourself for me so I can stamp it next to "Oblivious" in the World's dumberest dictionary.

[Squire Grooktook]

I die all the time because I am always chatting with my team and smacking enemies lol. I don''t care for taking damage when I can resta it
That's another thing. Even as a Hunter, if you just back up and play it safe, it's way too hard to die. That's why the only mobs I fear are the ones that can do 100% combo's. Cause otherwise I know I can just dash > tap jump > dash > repeat across the map with way too many invincibility frames, then drink a potion when the enemies are on the other side of the map practically.

I think it needs more ranged and spell casting enemies, to make you feel less safe at a distance. STEP ADVANCE HAS TO GO OR BE NERFED SORRY. Also maybe more enemies that can block your path and position at choke points to stop you from escaping.






there's no reason whatsoever to believe they've learned to do otherwise.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Psp2i harder then Universe? I have been frequently told that the game was exceptionally well balanced in terms of difficulty.

[Geistritter]

Even if that's the case, it took them over five years to make a balanced game out of Universe. Not a good precedent.

[Agitated_AT]

you guys are full of crap, I bet everyone here dies all the time. And you know what, I'm glad everytime I see a player die because reviving a team mate is the best feeling there is.

Only at time attack, bosses and the more agressive hoards really. As i've said the real challenge isn't consistent, but only comes when it feels like it in the fields. The AI is complex, but not agressive. I know you're a fan of pso so you should understand what i mean.


Jee.. thanks, Captain Obvious! That was quite the "no-brainer" response I'd been looking for, hypocrite!

Take a picture of yourself for me so I can stamp it next to "Oblivious" in the World's dumberest dictionary.
Thanks for your weird contribution. I don't really get why you're calling me a hypocrite and why you're so angry, but okay. Let's continue on topic

[Squire Grooktook]

Even if that's the case, it took them over five years to make a balanced game out of Universe. Not a good precedent.

I CAN WAIT.

[Triple_S]

Ranged enemies are disproportionately more challenging to melee classes than they are to ranged classes, with lower r-def and a need to travel to the target to even hit it to any real effect.

If you want a challenge stop playing a ranged class.

Yeah I've played all three classes and found it pretty much the same level of difficulty for each. Hunter is just more involved than Ranger and Force.

The game is not hard aside from a couple bosses that are aggressive and punish bad dodging. They're like the Sinows, only not fucking obnoxious because we can actually dodge properly.

Honestly, one thing I like from Dark Souls is how enemies would attack with varying speeds and patterns. That'd be nice to have here. Ranged classes need more to counter them though, I agree, but Hunter can get by pretty easily thanks to predictable patterns.

EDIT:


you guys are full of crap, I bet everyone here dies all the time. And you know what, I'm glad everytime I see a player die because reviving a team mate is the best feeling there is.

I actually die often to the Banthers, and sometimes to Vahder (mostly because he hits really, really hard and I still haven't quite figured out what's going on in that fight past the multi-party chaos). But that's about it, unless I start taking a lot of unnecessary risks due to falling asleep while winbombing everything.

God I can't wait to unlock Gunner...