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Darki
Sep 21, 2012, 11:56 PM
http://bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-ruins-and-subclass-system/

Finally, we got real info about the subclasses! So, according to this, by choosing a subclass you aquire its skilltree, PAs/techs ussage and 20% of its original stats. Unfortunately, we son't get access to its weapon categories, and the only way to circunvent this issue is by using "free-for-all" weapons, such as Bouquet Rifle, Duel Gaze, Mic Stand, Space Tuna.

So, what's your opinion about this? I can't say I'm too happy with the weapon restrictions, but I'll leave my opinion for later posts.

Lumpen Thingy
Sep 21, 2012, 11:58 PM
Well I can sub ranger and get a nice boost for my mech guns on gunner as well as use both weak bullet and chain bullet...I'm one happy gunner lol

blace
Sep 22, 2012, 12:00 AM
I can't say I wasn't expecting some kind of catch with the subclass system, but I do see it as being somewhat viable for other classes that need that extra boost in another field when the game heads towards an unexpected turn in battle.

Dan Maku
Sep 22, 2012, 12:01 AM
Is there a list of universally equitable items like the Space Tuna and Eight Ounce Gloves? I'm still debating whether I want to be a Fighgunner or Gunfighter, and will likely choose based on which weapons I can use without regards to class.

Maronji
Sep 22, 2012, 12:02 AM
So, what's your opinion about this? I can't say I'm too happy with the weapon restrictions, but I'll leave my opinion for later posts.

Primarily because of the exclusivity of the Bouquet Rifle (Pre-Open Beta reward for clearing the early Desert mission), the Space Tuna (Summer Rappy-only drop), and the Mic Stand (reward from Michaela for the time she is in game (and her time to leave is coming up really fast, isn't it?)) and the nature of their appearance/stats, I'm inclined to agree. Some people use certain weapon types because it fits their playstyle, and the limit they've imposed is asking for a lot with how the game is currently set up.

We can only hope that the situation improves (aka more all-class weapons being implemented or the restrictions removed) as time goes on.

HFlowen
Sep 22, 2012, 12:02 AM
Not getting access to class weapons is a retarded limitation. We're gonna use the OP skills (weak bullet) anyway with the free class weapons, so all this does is force us to use joke weapons.

EvilMag
Sep 22, 2012, 12:04 AM
Not getting access to class weapons is a retarded limitation. We're gonna use the OP skills (weak bullet) anyway with the free class weapons, so all this does is force us to use joke weapons.

This. I find it pretty stupid. Once again Melee classes get the short end of the stick...

AzureBlaze
Sep 22, 2012, 12:08 AM
It will be cool IF they get to releasing 'free for all' weps that aren't wacky gag stuff.

I mean, it doesn't have to be a jillion weapons, but having something thats "Not Silly" is important here. A selection of maybe 3 or 4 things that could be used by more than 1 class would be nice to help pick your look / pick your focus.

It kinda didn't matter in PSO when you could barehand technics or be like an awesome RAmar and throw foie out with your foot/a kick while holding mechguns. But being forced to use a fish is sort of uncool. However, it's very early yet, I'm sure cool stuff will come in time. It's just good to be getting sub classes at this point.

gigawuts
Sep 22, 2012, 12:27 AM
Yeah they SERIOUSLY need to add non-joke allclass weapons, stat.

I really didn't think they'd do this. This is pretty bad.

Stuff on the level of the double saber legacy is ideal. Hell, maybe make the full series of legacy weapons all-class. Talis, etc.

Enforcer MKV
Sep 22, 2012, 12:28 AM
Will probably he subbing Techer on RA when this drops, beside the hate. MkV was a Guntecher in PSU, and MkX will continue the tradition. COMBAT MEDIC, REPRESENT!

LK1721
Sep 22, 2012, 12:32 AM
Will probably he subbing Techer on RA when this drops, beside the hate. MkV was a Guntecher in PSU, and MkX will continue the tradition. COMBAT MEDIC, REPRESENT!

*highfive* Doing the exact same thing! :D

Enforcer MKV
Sep 22, 2012, 12:36 AM
*highfive* Doing the exact same thing! :D

*returns it* Damn straight!

ScottyMango
Sep 22, 2012, 12:40 AM
I'll be going Fighter/force myself. It's a shame though, that you'll never be able to use more than the 4 weapon types at any given time. Makes the game feel really restricted.

Also, 20% stats seems really low, even for a subclass.

D-Inferno
Sep 22, 2012, 12:42 AM
Don't assume that your subclass won't be able to use their weapons just yet. The upcoming update probably has a bunch of universal weapons in it. It's just that you'll probably have to settle for weaker variants of those weapons (like for example, only Fighter would have access to something powerful like a Double Cannon, but something like Girasole could be classified as universal).

Speculation on the effectiveness of each subclass, assuming all of the skill tree's perks get applied:

Hunter - Non-Tech classes all benefit from Fury Stance and JA Bonus. All Force and Techer gets from it is the Defense Stance and War Cry for using surround attacks, which doesn't seem that great. Techer also gets... more wand damage.
Fighter - All the classes can benefit from Fighter, as Brave/Wise Stance should apply the bonus to everything, I think. Did it's description say Techniques?
Ranger - Should eb awesome with Gunner, but for other classes, it just provides Weak Shot and Traps for A good supportive option I suppose for non-Gunner. However, note that from a Rifle to a different weapon type kills the bullets, so you're going to have to use all 3 bullets before you switch back to your weapon.
Gunner - Ranger has so much to benefit from this, with the combination of Weak Bullet and Chain Trigger being the notable attraction. Other classes could still make use of Chain Trigger, Attack PP Restore, and Aerial Advance (Twin Daggers being the prime example).
Force - Save for Techer, possibly the worse subclass option . The only reason to even consider it is PP Charge Revival, and even then , you are just an inferior Force AND Techer. Sub in Techer instead if you are going for the support aspect.
Techer - For Force, this could help make Technics easier to spam, as the combination of Charge PP Revival and PP Restraint should allow for that. It's also probably the best way to get a lot out of Zan, Grants, and Megid. Grants especially, since the new area, which is all Darkers, is weak to Light. Light has a chance of being Dark Falz's weakness too. For the other four, it makes a good supportive option, and is the best way for those who want to play like a HUnewearl and RAmarl in PSO (only this time, your support techs aren't outclassed!).

Yden
Sep 22, 2012, 12:43 AM
I'll be going Fighter/force myself. It's a shame though, that you'll never be able to use more than the 4 weapon types at any given time. Makes the game feel really restricted.

Also, 20% stats seems really low, even for a subclass.

Well it is 20% bonus stats on top of your existing stats. Seriously it'd feel very OP to say go gunner/ranger to pretty much double your ranged stat if it were 100%.

DjDragoon
Sep 22, 2012, 12:44 AM
So what's the point of a Force/Techer subbing a Ranger/Gunner? Sakai didn't think this through. It looks like Rangers/Gunners will get the better end of this deal by subbing other classes. Rangers with weak bullet and Fury Stance is gonna be interesting.

ScottyMango
Sep 22, 2012, 12:45 AM
Yes 100% would be too much, but say for example... a 20% bonus on a Hunter/Fighter or Ranger/Gunner that uses Force/Techer as a subclass means you're just going to have really weak techs.

Imo the biggest thing this is going to do is make rangers even more OP than they already were.

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 12:57 AM
This. I find it pretty stupid. Once again Melee classes get the short end of the stick...

Don't say that too quickly. Both melee classes have many non-weapon related skills that can greatly boost damage and defense in any other classes.

While techers are the only ones who can use their PAs without the weapons, that's pretty useless anyways. Teching without a tech weapon cuts you out of potentially 500 TATK points, not to count that if you're getting just the 20% of your subclass's stats, you're already very low on TP. Only useful techs are pretty much supportive and non-damage related ones, and none of the two techer classes have that good active skills.

That means that FO is pretty useless as a subclass compared to Techer, not even the PP charge skill is that flashy as any other class will get PP back by attacking normally, and I don't think a boost in Shifta cast is worth the hassle of using FO as a subclass. At least Techer boosts buffs and normal PP restoration...


Yeah they SERIOUSLY need to add non-joke allclass weapons, stat.

I really didn't think they'd do this. This is pretty bad.

Stuff on the level of the double saber legacy is ideal. Hell, maybe make the full series of legacy weapons all-class. Talis, etc.

As the game is now it's very unfair. You got stuff like Duel Gaze which is a pretty neat tech weapon but then you have shits like the Space Tuna as the only aviable sword for sub Hunter. I'm really hoping they make a regular series of "free for all" weapons or elase I'll have to be for the rest of my PSO2 life using a Duel Gaze and that stupid Mic Stand to make my offensive techs marginally useful...

That, or they're going to add some PSPo2i-like "grade shop" that will allow to add weapon categories to your class, or switch them somehow. But as it is now, is even worse than PSU hybrid class system, at least there you had access to some regular weapons for both your "halves"...

WolfDreamer
Sep 22, 2012, 01:13 AM
Overall I'm unhappy with the way sub-classes are sounding but we all knew they'd have to put some sort of restrictions on them. My main concern tho is that i'm hoping Sega is feeling nice enough and does a universal reset of everyone's Skill Trees when this sub-class content patch comes out. I know they want to make money, but there is a difference between having the "option" to pay for an SP reset if you want to tweak your character, or being "forced" to pay for an SP reset to make your new sub-class character useable.

Heat Haze
Sep 22, 2012, 01:24 AM
Overall I'm unhappy with the way sub-classes are sounding but we all knew they'd have to put some sort of restrictions on them. My main concern tho is that i'm hoping Sega is feeling nice enough and does a universal reset of everyone's Skill Trees when this sub-class content patch comes out. I know they want to make money, but there is a difference between having the "option" to pay for an SP reset if you want to tweak your character, or being "forced" to pay for an SP reset to make your new sub-class character useable.

Given how they did not hand out Mag Reset devices in the most recent update; I doubt they'll do this (Hunters and their Karina come to mind). Though it would be nice.

Sub-Classes sound rough right now; it's a new feature, and will hopefully add variety to the classes we all see. That's all well and good. Right now based on the information we have ,it looks rough. Requiring those multi-class weapons is a big one.

Hopefully they'll refine sub-classes more somewhere down the line.

Crystal_Shard
Sep 22, 2012, 01:27 AM
@Evilmag: Melee classes get the short end of the stick? Melee and Ranged classes will be able to self heal/buff and cast most of the current techs, unless Sega restricts certain techs to Force only as well... Being stuck with Force only weapons when subbing Fighter is like Sega letting us sub Ranger but refusing to let you use weak bullet at all, even with a Flower Bouquet - in other words, what's the point?

@ ScottyMango: I'd have preferred that they unlocked one weapon class from your chosen subclass based on subclass level rather than having 20% more stats. Still hoping we get the Class Extend system from PSPo2i to ease away these stupid restrictions.

Was hoping against hope that this particular scenario wouldn't play out, but looks like it did. Oh well. Sooo, any one got a list of all the "All-Class" weapons currently available? Pretty sure only Soul Eater and Duel Gaze are the only current exceptions to being non joke items.

Anyway, my thoughts on the combinations. Wonder if these will be accurate once October comes around.

---
HU/FI or FI/HU: No issues imo. Only need to reverse subclass choice if you want the other weapons.

HU or FI/RA: Will need an expensive Bouquet Rifle to work effectively, but otherwise ok. Weak Hit Advance will be a major boon, as would be traps or grenades.

HU or FI/GU: Similar to RA. No weak bullet and fancy tools, but Chaining skills should be quite powerful.

HU or FI/FO: Shifta, Deband, Resta, Anti. Nuff' said.

HU or FI/TE: Shifta, Deband, Resta, Anti and 20% more Def stats. Nuff' said.

---
RA/GU or GU/RA: RA/GU seems a little better than the reverse imo, but I haven't tried Mechguns yet. Either way not much differences.

RA or GU/HU: Guard Stance will be of some use for sureBut Fury Stance seems useless unless it also increase R-Atk. Otherwise, no other utility other than added stats.

RA or GU/FI: Brave and Wise Stance will be useful, but no other utility other than added stats.

RA or GU/FO: Shifta, Deband, Resta, Anti. Nuff' said.

RA or GU/TE: Shifta, Deband, Resta, Anti and 20% more Def stats. Nuff' said.

---
FO/TE or TE/FO: Basically, do you want to use Rods, or Wands? Kinda annoying for me because I had an alt concept that would be using wands as a FO/TE. :P This just killed it.

FO or TE/HU: Aside from increased defenses, Soul Eater and Guard Stance, there goes all hope of making a fancy magic knight with specializing in magic.

FO or TE/FI: Sub Fighter without daggers/double sabers/knuckles? Might as well not even bother. This was the setup I was aiming for dammit.

FO or TE/RA: Might be the most useful combo for tech users. Weak Hit Advance, Weak Bullet, Traps, Stun Grenades, added defense against ranged enemies... only problem will be the soon to be exorbitant Bouquet Rifle

FO or TE/GU: Chaining might be of some use, but no guns again other than the soon to be exorbitant Bouquet Rifle

Jakosifer
Sep 22, 2012, 01:34 AM
Lol, well have fun Rangers.

Zyrusticae
Sep 22, 2012, 01:35 AM
I really don't like the exclusion of weapons. My worst fears have been realized!

I can only hope the fans give Sega enough negative feedback on the matter to get it changed.

That aside, it looks like my plan of going straight Hu/Fi and Fo/Te is going to work out nicely. Massive, MASSIVE S-Atk and S-def on 'Nu... she's going to be a wrecking ball of epic proportions.

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 01:43 AM
Overall I'm unhappy with the way sub-classes are sounding but we all knew they'd have to put some sort of restrictions on them.

But I believe having the 20% stat restriction was something very signiticative already. That in itself is a weapon restriction, it means that you'd gotta pretty much build your mag according to your subclass and/or invest more points than usual for the stat-increasing skills if you wanted to have access to high tier weapons for it. And if you'd do that, you'd be diminishing both classes' ability to equip even better weapons, as you'd be using your resources to balance both classes to bring the subclass power on par to the main class, instead of directly strenghtening your main class.

Think that we're also getting weapons past 10* rank too, and I doubt we will be able to equip those weapons if we plan on getting a "real hybrid" build.


I really don't like the exclusion of weapons. My worst fears have been realized!

I can only hope the fans give Sega enough negative feedback on the matter to get it changed.

If JPs are of the same opinion as what we can see here I guess they're not too happy with the matter. I hope they aren't, I don't wanna have to use a mic stand as a rod for the rest of my PSO2 life :C

Blundy
Sep 22, 2012, 01:43 AM
go go techer with hunter defense stance and auto halfmate, ultra tank.

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 01:53 AM
go go techer with hunter defense stance and auto halfmate, ultra tank.

If you wanna be ultra tank wouldn't you rather go inverse? You'd get Just Guard 'n stuff. <_<

I actually know somebody who wants to do exactly that.

JeyKama
Sep 22, 2012, 02:12 AM
Think that we're also getting weapons past 10* rank too, and I doubt we will be able to equip those weapons if we plan on getting a "real hybrid" build.



If JPs are of the same opinion as what we can see here I guess they're not too happy with the matter. I hope they aren't, I don't wanna have to use a mic stand as a rod for the rest of my PSO2 life :C

They're subclasses, not hybrid/dual-classes. If you want to invest in weaponry for an unrelated ATK subclass for anything other than utility, by all means, but from the sound of things, it appears subclasses are more for extra stats and utility than for actual use. Kind of like FFXI's subclass system except with having full access to your subclasses's tree for stat boosts/skills/etc. Would be nice if they gave us a "subclass-use-only" skill tree though.

No reason the dual-type class you want won't happen further on though.

Mystil
Sep 22, 2012, 02:13 AM
Going FO/HU for more def/guard stance.. already got a tree spec'd for it.

MissMalice
Sep 22, 2012, 02:13 AM
I'm thinking that I'm going to be Fighter with Gunner as a subclass. I'd go with Ranger as a subclass, but there's no way I'm getting that Bouquet Gun thingy. :c Its lame-looking+expensive...

I'm really hoping they add better looking All-Class weapons. I mean, the all-class launcher they added is... tolerable. Granted, its more pleasant to stare into a quasar than that portable highlighter school bus, but it at least LOOKS like a weapon. Not a microphone stand or space tuna.

moeri
Sep 22, 2012, 02:14 AM
Since I wanted to do a FO/TE rod user this doesn;t bother me at all...

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 02:20 AM
They're subclasses, not hybrid/dual-classes. If you want to invest in weaponry for an unrelated ATK subclass for anything other than utility, by all means, but from the sound of things, it appears subclasses are more for extra stats and utility than for actual use. Kind of like FFXI's subclass system except with having full access to your subclasses's tree for stat boosts/skills/etc. Would be nice if they gave us a "subclass-use-only" skill tree though.

No reason the dual-type class you want won't happen further on though.

Well, the thing is that because of the weapon restriction some classes are pretty useless as subclasses compared to others. Hunter and Fighter get the best of it as they have the highest number of useable skills, while Force gets only what? support that you can get through items (and if you wanted them that badly you'd be getting TE anyways), and maybe PP restore which is not that useful as anything other than a techer class as you'd be restoring PP by normal attacks anyways, TE PP buffs are much better for that.

Also, if the restriction was absolute, okay, but the problem is that you can somehow circunvent it with the free for all weapons, and some are plain ridiculous or hard to get. Using a Ranger as subclass with access to Weak Bullet is going to be more of a privilege if they don't add more FFA rifles, as the bouquet rifle is a limited item.

In any case, I do wish that they allow for a bit better form of hybridation in the future. I though that subclasses would make some race/class combinations more useful, like making HUnewm good with techs, but as it is now, we're getting techs that we won't be using anyways because they're crap.

Triple_S
Sep 22, 2012, 02:22 AM
I plan on always subbing Force or Techer. I just want to mix techs in with my attacks!

Or maybe I could go Techer and sub either Hunter or Fighter... apparently Wand damage is based on S-ATK, so that'd be good for a battle mage. I just want to have decent tech and melee damage, but not excelling in either, y'know? I want the versatility and cool factor of mixing PAs and Techs without either source of damage suffering too much.

Dammy
Sep 22, 2012, 02:25 AM
decent combos in my opinion
FI/HU
FI/GU (not so sure)
GU/RA

all others not so efficient i think

Skyly HUmar
Sep 22, 2012, 02:29 AM
This. I find it pretty stupid. Once again Melee classes get the short end of the stick...

I know what you mean there. Not only can't we use resta without a subclass now, but we can't even use all of our melee weps without having to use some crappy ones. I didnt go farming for all my gear and wasting milions of meseta upgrading all of it just to not be able to use it and have to settle for something much... much crappier >_>.


Hell, I'm just upset that we're so limited with the types of weapons we can use.

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 02:29 AM
I plan on always subbing Force or Techer. I just want to mix techs in with my attacks!

Or maybe I could go Techer and sub either Hunter or Fighter... apparently Wand damage is based on S-ATK, so that'd be good for a battle mage. I just want to have decent tech and melee damage, but not excelling in either, y'know? I want the versatility and cool factor of mixing PAs and Techs without either source of damage suffering too much.

I want that too, but being limited to just a weapon and normal attacks, specially one so slow and boring, kills completely the buzz for me. :X

I wanted to use sword with techs betwen combos, and be able to access rods for when I need to focus on techs. I guess I can be grateful that at least the Duel Gaze is not that bad of a tech weapon, but I'd rather have a bit wider selection of weapons even if they're not that powerful...

honestly, I can't say yet I prefer this system to PSU's. There the possibility of having hybrids with cool exclusive weapon combinations was a good point, even if they ended fucking it all. Unless they add some way to access more regular-looking weapons for subclasses this system is inferior.

Coatl
Sep 22, 2012, 02:29 AM
If you wanna be ultra tank wouldn't you rather go inverse? You'd get Just Guard 'n stuff. <_<

I actually know somebody who wants to do exactly that.

But you see, if you use guard stance on a HU/TE you would be turning your damage into mush.
But as a TE/HU you'd still have the power of t-atk a wand provides you to deal out some damage and do whatever else techers do.


Going GU/RA, FO/TE and TE/HU.

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 02:32 AM
But you see, if you use guard stance on a HU/TE you would be turning your damage into mush.
But as a TE/HU you'd still have the power of t-atk a wand provides you to deal out some damage and do whatever else techers do.


Going GU/RA, FO/TE and TE/HU. <333

But that wouldn't be an "ultra tank". =X I mean, that'd be something more balanced. xD I still get your point though.

Cry0
Sep 22, 2012, 02:38 AM
not the weapons? then what's the point :/

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 02:40 AM
not the weapons? then what's the point :/

non-weapon-related skills, resta/support, pretty much. Out of 30 possible combinations, I think there are less than 10 objectively useful ones.

Blundy
Sep 22, 2012, 02:40 AM
If you wanna be ultra tank wouldn't you rather go inverse? You'd get Just Guard 'n stuff. <_<

I actually know somebody who wants to do exactly that.

I like my wands.

Skyly HUmar
Sep 22, 2012, 02:41 AM
not the weapons? then what's the point :/

You can sub a force and use resta instead of spending meseta on that one dimate that you use every few hours in a mpa.

Dammy
Sep 22, 2012, 02:41 AM
You can sub a force and use resta instead of spending meseta on that one dimate that you use every few hours in a mpa.

lol so true

Coatl
Sep 22, 2012, 02:42 AM
You can sub a force and use resta instead of spending meseta on that one dimate that you use every few hours in a mpa.

Every few minutes. ;)

Skyly HUmar
Sep 22, 2012, 02:44 AM
Every few minutes. ;)

All up to how you play i guess ;p

Valkyrie Lovrina
Sep 22, 2012, 02:45 AM
Fuck Me, I wanted to use Guld Milla with my Vivienne. Damn shame I can't make a Fighgunner-ish character. :argh:

Lostbob117
Sep 22, 2012, 02:48 AM
JA bonus + Fury Stance + fighter class.

Yden
Sep 22, 2012, 02:50 AM
You can sub a force and use resta instead of spending meseta on that one dimate that you use every few hours in a mpa.

Resta also has a lower post delay time than using mates so you're less susceptible to being hit right after you heal.

Also I really don't get why people think a Hunter/Fighter subing Ranger for weak bullet is a good idea. You won't get the most out of the skill unless you can use all the bullets but since HU/FI won't have very good R-Atk, you'd want to switch weapons right after you get the debuff off pretty much limiting your usage of the skill to once every 90 seconds. Although subing RA with the weak point passives could be very useful.

Skyly HUmar
Sep 22, 2012, 02:52 AM
JA bonus + fighter class.

Not saying the skills are not good for some things, but honestly, I don't think i'm alone when I wanted to use more than 3 non gunslash weapons without having to switch classes.

Fighter and hunter would be a great combo because their skills are pretty good for each other, JA 1&2 maxed + fury stance + brave and wise stance will probably be a very powerful combo.

JeyKama
Sep 22, 2012, 03:05 AM
Well, the thing is that because of the weapon restriction some classes are pretty useless as subclasses compared to others. Hunter and Fighter get the best of it as they have the highest number of useable skills, while Force gets only what? support that you can get through items (and if you wanted them that badly you'd be getting TE anyways), and maybe PP restore which is not that useful as anything other than a techer class as you'd be restoring PP by normal attacks anyways, TE PP buffs are much better for that.

Also, if the restriction was absolute, okay, but the problem is that you can somehow circunvent it with the free for all weapons, and some are plain ridiculous or hard to get. Using a Ranger as subclass with access to Weak Bullet is going to be more of a privilege if they don't add more FFA rifles, as the bouquet rifle is a limited item.

In any case, I do wish that they allow for a bit better form of hybridation in the future. I though that subclasses would make some race/class combinations more useful, like making HUnewm good with techs, but as it is now, we're getting techs that we won't be using anyways because they're crap.

Ee~~~~~h. In almost every game that offers job combos, there are some combos that work much better than others despite so many people wanting to play special snowflake combinations. I'd like to think that was their rationale for making the new classes require lv30 in the matching ATK class. Personally, I'm much more willing to try out RA/HU over RA/GU but whatever.

I don't remember where I saw them, and I don't know how legit they are, but someone posted a bunch of datamined gear icons from this patch, and among them were color swaps of existing FFA gear (including bouquet rifle swaps)

Cry0
Sep 22, 2012, 03:07 AM
Now that my rage is somewhat subsided, and having thought about all the fighter/hunter skills, I think there are plenty of possibilities for people to yet experiment with. Especially if level 50 cap ever comes out.

That said, I still believe they need to redo the skill trees, and limit the subclass weapon restriction less.

But for now I'll wait and see, level some classes and reflect on the possibilities.

gigawuts
Sep 22, 2012, 03:09 AM
A thought occurs to me - maybe all the recolored rares in the datamined info aren't the new higher tier of raress, but weaker allclass versions?

Or maybe they're 10* rares with unique abilities, making them worth having.

I'd accept both, in truth. Just so long as they're not 10* with a slightly higher atk value.

Omega-z
Sep 22, 2012, 03:09 AM
Here are the All-Type weapon's

Sword - Space Tuna - Summer Rappy any LV. drop.

Partisan - Soul Eater - El Ada Lv26 drop.

Double Saber - Double Saber Legacy - Dig Lv21 drop.

Knuckle - Eight Ounces - Anne Giardini sill Lv16-35 drop.

Gun Slasher - All - any where.

Assault Rifle - Bouquet Rifle - Pre-Open Beta Dessert Completion Reward.

Launcher - Viper Fury - Friend Invitation System, requires 5 badges at the Badge Exchange Shop.

Twin Machine Gun - Ares Vis - Garongo Lv1-Lv30 drop.

Rod - Mic Stand - Compensation Request Mikera NPC.

Tallis - Duel Gaze - Dark Ragune Lv31 drop.

weapon's that don't have a All-Type at the moment: Wired Lance, Twin Dagger & Wand.

kabutozero
Sep 22, 2012, 03:28 AM
Gunner-Ranger : Stack weak bullet and chain , do massive damage for the first weakbullet , finish chain with some awesome sneak shooting , use other 2 weak bullets as normal

Ranger-Gunner , use Weak bullet first with rifle , using sneak shoot , when all the shoots are out , use chain in the meanwhile time while weak bullet charges


Op classes born LOL

MissMalice
Sep 22, 2012, 03:33 AM
Gunner-Ranger : Stack weak bullet and chain , do massive damage for the first weakbullet , finish chain with some awesome sneak shooting , use other 2 weak bullets as normal

Ranger-Gunner , use Weak bullet first with rifle , using sneak shoot , when all the shoots are out , use chain in the meanwhile time while weak bullet charges


Op classes born LOL

I think I came a little.

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 03:34 AM
Ee~~~~~h. In almost every game that offers job combos, there are some combos that work much better than others despite so many people wanting to play special snowflake combinations. I'd like to think that was their rationale for making the new classes require lv30 in the matching ATK class. Personally, I'm much more willing to try out RA/HU over RA/GU but whatever.

Well, personally I consider that as a design flaw. Why would you add classes that are not worth playing? In this game we can say that they're "accidental" combinations because of the subclass system, but in most MMO's I've played, including PSU, the fact is that I don't see why would you add useless stuff. And honestly, if you add the possibility, why not to make use of it? What a great loss of opportunity, then. You have 30 damn class combinations and at the end you're getting less than half to be useful, when you could have 30 and have pretty much EVERYBODY happy and drooling over the game.

Take PSU as an example: at the end of the game's life there were pretty much 4~6 useful classes, while the majority of them were worthless. If you played anything other than Master/Acro classes and marginally Protranser, you'd be experiencing a huge downgrade in efficiency and pretty much obsolete roles that those 6 classes could fullfill already.

I don't claim that I want all classes to be equally good, but I don't see why can't they make all of them at least worth playing, for reasons other than nostalgia/fun. For example, a HU/Fo or FI/FO would be very cool classes to play as some sort of magic knight featuring moderate~strong melee attacks with offensive techs, but as the game is now, the only attractive of that role is "for fun", for freaks like me who like that stuff and we can live with the fact that our tech numbers are going to be tremendously crap.

And you can't deny that having it in a way as it's now, that picking FO over TE as subclass is pretty much for the same roles, to support, doesn't show any sign of efficiency in class balance. Wouldn't it be much better that they had different uses? otherwise, why having two?



A thought occurs to me - maybe all the recolored rares in the datamined info aren't the new higher tier of raress, but weaker allclass versions?

If that was the case I'd be in peace with SEGA. I'm very sad already not being able to use my Stellar Twinkle and Wonder Colette as subclasses, that would mean I would be able to use them even with different colors and different stats. I could live with it. =(

gigawuts
Sep 22, 2012, 03:38 AM
Erm, class combos are not the same as outright classes. As it is, there are 6 standalone, decent classes (techer is arguable, depending who you ask). Those classes combined may not complement eachother. They would need to address each combination on a case-by-case basis and add tweaks to that specific case. I don't particularly expect them to do that.

As far as picking FO over TE, I'll be doing that when I go with tech subbing. I vastly prefer the offensive tech tweaks over the support stuff. It's not always about omgwtf damage, sometimes stun from continuous damage is all you need and FO's tech bonuses certainly deliver.

kabutozero
Sep 22, 2012, 03:39 AM
I think I came a little.

And I just realized both schemes could be this , dunno why I said that , might be worth speccing into pp recovery on gunner to give to ranger , arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhh why more decisions , seems really like only raising certain skills beneficial to a subclass could be the way to go

Spellbinder
Sep 22, 2012, 03:40 AM
Glad to see info about subclasses. Weapon restrictions were not a surprise in the least.

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 03:45 AM
Erm, class combos are not the same as outright classes. As it is, there are 6 standalone, decent classes (techer is arguable, depending who you ask). Those classes combined may not complement eachother. They would need to address each combination on a case-by-case basis and add tweaks to that specific case. I don't particularly expect them to do that.

Well, I don't expect them to do that either, but as I said, I consider it a great dissapointment. And they didn't really need to do much to make them better, they just needed to allow for weapon access and I think it'd be much better balanced. As I said, we're already limited in our equipment by our stats, and as subclasses don't give that good boosts we would have to choose versatility over efficiency, which is, in my opinion, much a better choice than having to choose between using a tuna sword or not using sword at all. =/


As far as picking FO over TE, I'll be doing that when I go with tech subbing. I vastly prefer the offensive tech tweaks over the support stuff. It's not always about omgwtf damage, sometimes stun from continuous damage is all you need and FO's tech bonuses certainly deliver.

I'm with you on that, I wanna sub FO, but the thing is that even so, TE skilltree is much better as a subclass even for offensive techs, because you compensate the lack of flame tech charge/bolt PP save and PP restore with better natural PP restore skills (that you'd be using with your main class normal attacks anyways), a much better SE "ignition" skill, better buffs and such. If you're not choosing FO because of damage, it makes more sense to go for TE, which only drawback is actually tech damage... =/

gigawuts
Sep 22, 2012, 03:51 AM
Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed in the idea of some combos too, but it's the nature of the system. What would be really good is a small rework of each individual class so they gain things that let them function well as subclasses without making them the new go-to main class. In other words, balancing.

The alternative is, like I mentioned, the case-by-case combo balancing...and that's not good. It's not just lazy, but a bandaid over the larger balancing issues of each class. But, I won't try to say which is better than which, I like to use all of it except launcher.

Also I forgot about TE's PP bonuses, even though I was just advocating for them earlier this week. Hm, each class DOES have things going for it, but...some things really seem to outweigh others. Weak bullet is a serious contender for techs. For a WB skillsheet, drop 1 SP in weak bullet, the rest on ability up, etc. Gunner also has that PP-for-damage skill, which I'm maxing out and using as a sub for sure.

EvilMag
Sep 22, 2012, 03:54 AM
I wonder if Hunter + Fighter would be good...

Better start saving up for a Double Saber Legacy.

Dinosaur
Sep 22, 2012, 03:59 AM
And I just realized both schemes could be this , dunno why I said that , might be worth speccing into pp recovery on gunner to give to ranger , arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhh why more decisions , seems really like only raising certain skills beneficial to a subclass could be the way to go

It's always worth speccing PP attack recovery on Gunner. You can get level 10 PP attack recovery and level 10 Chain Trigger on the same tree.


And you can't deny that having it in a way as it's now, that picking FO over TE as subclass is pretty much for the same roles, to support, doesn't show any sign of efficiency in class balance. Wouldn't it be much better that they had different uses? otherwise, why having two?

FO and TE do have different roles. FO is offensive based with tech damage boosts while TE has access to boosted support skills. The two classes also grant different stats. Not to mention that if you prefer to use a certain element, that would influence your decision on which to pick of the two.

Cyron Tanryoku
Sep 22, 2012, 04:00 AM
weird RAFI combination, here I come.

Powder Keg
Sep 22, 2012, 04:05 AM
Don't worry. They'll rebalance it 40 times.

blace
Sep 22, 2012, 04:07 AM
weird RAFI combination, here I come.
Don't know if you're aware of what was mentioned in the first page and later, but you can't use the subclasses weapons.

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 04:07 AM
FO and TE do have different roles. FO is offensive based with tech damage boosts while TE has access to boosted support skills. The two classes also grant different stats. Not to mention that if you prefer to use a certain element, that would influence your decision on which to pick of the two.

But we're talking about subclasses here. The thing is that the strong point of the Force class is tech damage, as much as being better than Techer even in its three "own" elements thanks to the general tech damage bonuses (Tech Charge Advance I & II and/or Tech JA bonus), while techer relies on other factors, like support, melee damage and status effects (poison ignition, and poison itself, being much better than any other SE that you can use as FO).

Considering the fact that you can't use weapons and you're short of stats as subclass, a FO would be stripped of a great amount of damage, while TE is a class that doesn't rely soley on tech damage to begin with, and its skills are oriented to more uses, most of them useful even without offensive techs or even tech weapons.

If you use FO as a subclass you gotta struggle to get to a "decent" level of tech damage and make do with mock weapons (fortunately the Duel Gaze is a decent tech weapon, but it's still around 100 TATK lower than most high-end rods), while TE as a subclass can make use of most of it's skilltree without much hassle. And if you wanna use FO as a subclass only for support, then I would say you're making a bad choice there.

Cyron Tanryoku
Sep 22, 2012, 04:10 AM
Don't know if you're aware of what was mentioned in the first page and later, but you can't use the subclasses weapons.
But you can use the all-class weapons right?
Double Saber Legacy and Eight Ounce can be used then.

Dammy
Sep 22, 2012, 04:10 AM
Don't worry. They'll rebalance it 40 times.

i hope so, but not so sure
SEGA known for being lazy with rebalancing

blace
Sep 22, 2012, 04:11 AM
But you can use the all-class weapons right?
Double Saber Legacy and Eight Ounce can be used then.
The ones that are currently available, yes.

Just like people that were lamenting over having to use joke weapons to make the subclasses useful, they better add in more universal weapons.

Edit: I can imagine the prices on those weapons to skyrocket when this update goes through.

jooozek
Sep 22, 2012, 04:14 AM
Will you be able to switch between subclasses dynamically as you can switch between classes? Anyone saw anything in that vid on that?

gigawuts
Sep 22, 2012, 04:15 AM
The ones that are currently available, yes.

Just like people that were lamenting over having to use joke weapons to make the subclasses useful, they better add in more universal weapons.

Edit: I can imagine the prices on those weapons to skyrocket when this update goes through.

And this is why we grab weapons with unique functionality when they're cheap enough for our liking. I've gotten each allclass weapon (barring the launcher, which I'm sure is pricey regardless) with exactly this situation in mind. If this didn't happen this way, I'd still have some novelty weapons, which in the end is half the point of PSO.

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 04:16 AM
Will you be able to switch between subclasses dynamically as you can switch between classes? Anyone saw anything in that vid on that?

It seems that you just go to the same guy and pick a subclass. I didn't see if there was any restriction.

Drifting Fable
Sep 22, 2012, 04:19 AM
If you wanna be ultra tank wouldn't you rather go inverse? You'd get Just Guard 'n stuff. <_<

I actually know somebody who wants to do exactly that.

Count me in among one of the few who will take this ultra tanking route. :D

HuTeCast for life.

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 04:21 AM
Count me in among one of the few who will take this ultra tanking route. :D

HuTeCast for life.

The friend I was talking about, the guy who made that video about tanking a Quartz Dragon in the gameplay section, is really excited about that. Considering that he managed to get the damage under 50 HP for the dragon's melee attacks without a fully focused tank build and without good buffs other than Guard Stance and Deband drink, I'd say that you could make a pretty awesome tank with the new system if you do it right. Certainly, I wanna see how it turns out.

At least some of us will be happy with this system. =/

Dinosaur
Sep 22, 2012, 04:24 AM
If you use FO as a subclass you gotta struggle to get to a "decent" level of tech damage and make do with mock weapons (fortunately the Duel Gaze is a decent tech weapon, but it's still around 100 TATK lower than most high-end rods), while TE as a subclass can make use of most of it's skilltree without much hassle. And if you wanna use FO as a subclass only for support, then I would say you're making a bad choice there.

FO can get +30% tech damage through Tech Charge Advance 1 & 2 + JA Advance(additional +9% to fire and bolt spells). Put that together with another main class boost like RA's Weak Hit Advance or FI's Brave Stance and you have yourself some "decent" tech damage. FO also gets charge PP revival, a huge kick to the balls for TE.

NoiseHERO
Sep 22, 2012, 04:29 AM
Mandatory series of "all class" weapons, plox.

Otherwise, more interested in Vhard and it super bosses.

blace
Sep 22, 2012, 04:32 AM
So, not too long after I mention a hike in pricing on the joke weapons and they've already gone up about 10k.

Mystil
Sep 22, 2012, 04:33 AM
i hope so, but not so sure
SEGA known for being lazy with rebalancing

They weren't that way with JP PSU(because the localized versions hardly got any updates) and all the PA nerfing/buffing they did.

The subclass system I consider an idea rip from FFXI. With some few changes and similiarities:

(PSO2 / FFXI)
-Subclass level will not be half of the main class level - this is a plus people! / Job level is half the main job level
-Can't use the weapons of the class you're subbing but you inherit whatever is in its skill tree / Can't use the weapons of the job you're subbing, you inherit the skill categories of said job(but your rating for that skill affects its effectiveness)

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 04:38 AM
FO can get +30% tech damage through Tech Charge Advance 1 & 2 + JA Advance(additional +9% to fire and bolt spells). Put that together with another main class boost like RA's Weak Hit Advance or FI's Brave Stance and you have yourself some "decent" tech damage. FO also gets charge PP revival, a huge kick to the balls for TE.

Weak Hit Advance according to its description only affects attacks made with ranged weapons. And those percentual increases in damage lose much of their efficiency considering that you lose a crapload ot TATK where to apply them because of lack of tech weapons and stat bonuses. Of course Weak bullet itself would help, but so would do just shooting with your rifle. =/

As I wrote already in the Techer thread, it's true that you can reduce greatly the lack of TATK with a Duel Gaze and building a proper mag and skills, but still, is very stupid that you can only use a single mock weapon for that. I'd rather have a series of more "standardized" weapons that allow for more aesthetical and pallette choices. I don't think I'm asking for too much, I just think it's silly that the only rod I can use as sub Force is a mic stand. I'd rather have access up to rank 3* tech weapons instead. It feels more right.

And PP revival is not that much of a kick in the balls for TE when we're talking about subclasses, considering that both PP Convert and PP Restraint boost natural PP restoration in opposition to PP Revival just allowing for it to work while charging techs. In fact as a sub class you'd benefit much greatly of the first two, because they'd affect the amount of PP you'll get with each normal attack, which you should be doing pretty often as anything other than a FO or TE. PP Revival is better only for FO or TE.

Dinosaur
Sep 22, 2012, 04:51 AM
Weak Hit Advance according to its description only affects attacks made with ranged weapons. And those percentual increases in damage lose much of their efficiency considering that you lose a crapload ot TATK where to apply them because of lack of tech weapons and stat bonuses. Of course Weak bullet itself would help, but so would do just shooting with your rifle. =/

And PP revival is not that much of a kick in the balls for TE when we're talking about subclasses, considering that PP convert and PP restraint boosts natural PP restoration in opposition to PP revival just allowing for it to work wile charging techs. In fact as a sub class you'd benefit much greatly of TE PP related skills, because they'd affect the amount of PP you'll get with each normal attack, which you'd be doing pretty often as anything other than a FO or TE. PP revival is good only for FO or TE.

Good point about the Weak Hit Advance, but I feel like you're losing focus on what you were originally talking about. As you mentioned before, Duel Gaze exists for all classes(as well as Mic Stand) to provide T-atk if you feel like you're missing out on that. Picking FO sub means more T-atk bonus as well. Point being that there are definitely differences between picking FO and TE.


which you'd be doing pretty often as anything other than a FO or TE. PP revival is good only for FO or TE.

Talk for yourself... =X

Darki
Sep 22, 2012, 05:01 AM
I don't know why you quoted me on those two last lines. I would assume that if you play a RA/TE or RA/FO you'd be doing normal attacks more often than if you were a pure techer, or do you plan on maining damage techs too, in those combinations? =/

As for the first part, I was just saying that those differences are not that great when we're talking about a subclass. In case of their primary roles, for example, you can make full use of Techer's support that doesn't get diminished by the lack of tech weapons, while if you wanna go with offensive techs you gotta make do with a very dwarfed bonus, even if you pick Force.

Ce'Nedra
Sep 22, 2012, 05:40 AM
Weapon restrictions are just dumb...Guess that just killd my idea of going Fi/HU or Fighgunner.

Stormwalker
Sep 22, 2012, 06:31 AM
Absolutely planning to go FI/HU, and planning to build a custom HU skill tree to avoid overlapping skills (no step advance/step attack/just reversal since my FI already has these) and concentrate on passive bonuses (Max out S-DEF Up, JA Bonus 1, JA Bonus 2, HP Up 1).

Basically, subbing HU makes my FI a better FI. Don't see anything wrong with that.

Laxedrane
Sep 22, 2012, 06:59 AM
Gonna be one of those people rolling as a TE/HU tank. Already spec'd my hunter under the assumption that we be getting no weapons from subclasses so I am uneffected. Also TE/HU is more offensive then HU/TE. Basicly advantages and disadvantages.

HU/TE:
Gaurd
Counter
Sword gear

TE/HU:
Being able to equip any wand(Remember the defensive stance current has no T attack penalty. So techs are unaffected. Yay +400-500 tech from wep.)
Wand gear(I believe that damage is either independent or T attack base)
Force dodge.

So yeah, can't wait to roll this out.^^

Anyways, I am sure that as time goes on we will see more multi-class weapons. This is PSO after all.

Mega Ultra Chicken
Sep 22, 2012, 07:03 AM
I'm going FI/FO on Maz so he can finally put those space elf ears of his to use and heal some damage. Arlene will likely be going GU/RA for Weak Bullet (and because I haven't leveled any other classes on her,) and... not sure what I'll do with BROcast. I could go TE/FO for extra tech power or TE/HU for more melee capabilities. Or just FO/TE for whatevz. If I ever get to Killbot and Isa, Killbot will probably go Mega Ultra HU/TE Tank... or just HU/FO for Resta, and Isa will likely go RA/FO for epic RAmarl soloing akshun.

...I wonder if anyone will try making a defensive FI/HU build. It would be an interesting path.

dablacksephiroth
Sep 22, 2012, 07:38 AM
I'm glad how everything turned out Skill Tree-wise, but I was still hoping when getting to use other weapons outside your main class's usage that you'd get to add techs to the weapon.

Don't say it couldn't be done, instead of the use for Shift to define which Tech to specifically use, the penalty for using a non-Teching weapon would be that whatever spell you'd like to use can only be used in a custom combo like the melee weapons already do.

And Ranged weps are already like that of Teching weps, yes? Hold shift for the other side?


Also peoples, weapon equip restrictions are only hated right now until the next set of classes show up that can/will probably equip half of the combos you're yearning. (LOL)

NoiseHERO
Sep 22, 2012, 07:43 AM
give us new weapon types that you have to be a combination of X and Y class to use!

Wonder how much stronger we'll be having a subclass?

In comparison to how hard the game will become, in which you'd NEED to make up a good gameplan with the combination of both your classes to stay on top of things. @_@

Or they'll just nerf this game again when JP players complain it's too hard... >_>;;

/Wants my Vhard rares already

Jakosifer
Sep 22, 2012, 08:32 AM
Main and Subclass both at 100 = the new 200 :L

Dan Maku
Sep 22, 2012, 09:33 AM
Since there aren't nearly enough weapons that can be used by all classes, I'm hoping that I'll have the option to switch freely between subclasses like I can with main classes.

NoiseHERO
Sep 22, 2012, 01:22 PM
Since there aren't nearly enough weapons that can be used by all classes, I'm hoping that I'll have the option to switch freely between subclasses like I can with main classes.

If you look at the way you choose your subclass in the recent video. let alone choosing our main classes...

It should be a no-brainer that we can swap subs on the fly

njdss4
Sep 22, 2012, 01:40 PM
The subclass system almost makes me want to level Gunner, but only if Chain Trigger would be available. Can Chain Trigger be activated and applied with a Rifle? If it's mechgun only, that kind of defeats any purpose of having Gunner as a subclass.

Galax
Sep 22, 2012, 01:42 PM
I've said it in the topic about "which is more fun." You can use Chain Trigger with a rifle, I did it to a Rockbear - You can use RIFLES on GUNNER.

Coatl
Sep 22, 2012, 01:45 PM
I think what they should let us use at least one of our sub class' weapons. This is pretty horribly limiting.

Say for example you plan to main hunter and sub fighter.
There would be three quests from koffee, but you can only pick one to complete. One allows you to be able to wield twin daggers, double sabers, and the other fist.

[SPOILER-BOX]
x50 Vol kills and 1000 Darker drops later..
[/SPOILER-BOX]

But since you can only pick one, you'd be limited to only using one of your sub classes' weapons. Though this would mean Rangers/Gunners and Forces/Techers would be able to use all of their weapons while Hunter/Fighter only be able to use 4/6 of them.

Gardios
Sep 22, 2012, 01:49 PM
HU/TE will be hilarious, so much S-DEF. Stand at the front lines, take no damage, buff everything, RAGRANTS IN THE FACE.

Techniques not requiring a weapon makes me so happy.

njdss4
Sep 22, 2012, 02:06 PM
I've said it in the topic about "which is more fun." You can use Chain Trigger with a rifle, I did it to a Rockbear - You can use RIFLES on GUNNER.

Smarmy attitude... nice. I wasn't asking if you can use a Rifle on a Gunner. I was asking specifically if a Rifle could be used to activate and apply Chain Trigger, so thanks for at least answering that first.

gigawuts
Sep 22, 2012, 02:29 PM
give us new weapon types that you have to be a combination of X and Y class to use!

Wonder how much stronger we'll be having a subclass?

In comparison to how hard the game will become, in which you'd NEED to make up a good gameplan with the combination of both your classes to stay on top of things. @_@

Or they'll just nerf this game again when JP players complain it's too hard... >_>;;

/Wants my Vhard rares already

This is something I REALLY want. Things like CBringer's Rifle or Nei's Claw.

And there's a difference between challenging and frustrating. Some boss attacks are just frustrating. With similar if not identical or zero tells and ridiculous damage, stunlock, or both. Bosses should be legitimately challenging, not a test of where you happen to be standing when it rolls X or Y attack. Change a couple attacks, like the banther's triple stomp or quartz dragon's stunlock beams (I did find a workaround with daggers and their brilliant twirl), then don't add that stuff again and instead keep it to their other kinds of moves, and I'm golden.

Oh also fox the quartz dragon's double hit ground smash bug, that drives me up the wall.


Smarmy attitude... nice. I wasn't asking if you can use a Rifle on a Gunner. I was asking specifically if a Rifle could be used to activate and apply Chain Trigger, so thanks for at least answering that first.

Yes. In the trailer a fighter is even using double sabers with chain trigger. Also there's the allclass mechguns, which I do 9 damage per hit without buffs or headshots :wacko:

Pirrip
Sep 22, 2012, 02:31 PM
HU/TE will be hilarious, so much S-DEF. Stand at the front lines, take no damage, buff everything, RAGRANTS IN THE FACE.

Techniques not requiring a weapon makes me so happy.

Base stats don't combine, do they? That'd be RIDICULOUS.

gigawuts
Sep 22, 2012, 02:33 PM
Yep, 20% of your subclass's stats will be added to your stats.

It's a necessary component of subclasses, to make them useful for players who only want to improve their main and don't otherwise care about a subclass. Everyone else will get alternate abilities, techs, etc.

Galax
Sep 22, 2012, 02:44 PM
Smarmy attitude... nice. I wasn't asking if you can use a Rifle on a Gunner. I was asking specifically if a Rifle could be used to activate and apply Chain Trigger, so thanks for at least answering that first.

It was relevant. If you couldn't use Rifles on Gunner, how would one know if you can use Chain Trigger with a Rifle?

Coatl
Sep 22, 2012, 02:45 PM
Do your sub class' skills like R-atk up or T-def up count towards your main class' stats?
That'd be crazy.

Pirrip
Sep 22, 2012, 02:46 PM
That'd suit me nicely. I was considering going FO/TE most of the time anyway. ^_^

Zorafim
Sep 22, 2012, 08:52 PM
The lack of weapons from the subjob really kills hybrids. At most, you'll be able to heal and support. But, it doesn't seem like there's much use for that. Subjobs seem more useful for gaining new abilities and stats, than for gaining access to new forms of combat. Shame. I was really looking forward to be a mage knight.

Still, it'll be a nice boost. That 20% will work wonders for equipping equipment (and make my mags useless), and there are a few classes that should have great synergy. I'm kind of dissapointed, but I still can't wait to get a subjob.

kkow
Sep 22, 2012, 09:06 PM
i am disappoint. new "subclasses" are practically another mag to buff yourself with. hurray.

whoever is coming up with these ideas needs to be shot.

Gardios
Sep 22, 2012, 09:09 PM
You could always switch to Duel Gaze before casting spells since it has decent T-ATK... though that will definitely be tedious, at least on a controller.

Sp-24
Sep 22, 2012, 09:17 PM
You could always switch to Duel Gaze before casting spells since it has decent T-ATK... though that will definitely be tedious, at least on a controller.

Oh god, it happened. Cards have become useful.

Coatl
Sep 22, 2012, 09:24 PM
Will Skills like T-atk up be applied? So say for instance if you have lv10 T-atk up on your FO, when you sub class it you'll have that extra 50+ t-atk on your main class?

pikachief
Sep 22, 2012, 09:25 PM
I don't mind this at all. It's not a way to create a mixed class, its adding the bonuses of a previously leveled class on to your main class. I like it.

Laxedrane
Sep 22, 2012, 10:04 PM
Will Skills like T-atk up be applied? So say for instance if you have lv10 T-atk up on your FO, when you sub class it you'll have that extra 50+ t-atk on your main class?



I am going to make a leap of faith and say yes. Since it's a stat off the skill tree. And as of right now sega has not made a mention of a limitation to anything from the skill tree.

cheapgunner
Sep 22, 2012, 10:09 PM
Ranger/Gunner and Force/Techer have only two weps themselves while Hunter/Fighter has three if you discount gunslash. Seems kinda unbalanced (should let Ranger/Gunner/Force/Gunner get their subclasses weapons as well.

Zorafim
Sep 22, 2012, 10:10 PM
I don't mind this at all. It's not a way to create a mixed class, its adding the bonuses of a previously leveled class on to your main class. I like it.

I don't think I do, though. What's the point of adding a major system like this if it doesn't really give much variety? I'd much rather it completely change my playstyle, than give me just a few abilities.
If they make hybrid classes later, then fine. But if they do, what's the point of this?

pikachief
Sep 22, 2012, 10:50 PM
I don't think I do, though. What's the point of adding a major system like this if it doesn't really give much variety? I'd much rather it completely change my playstyle, than give me just a few abilities.
If they make hybrid classes later, then fine. But if they do, what's the point of this?

to use your previously leveled classes to add bonuses to the class you're currently playing.

Omega-z
Sep 22, 2012, 10:52 PM
This list is updated and added three more to that list thanks to Inazuma.:)

Here are the All-Type weapon's

Sword - Space Tuna - Summer Rappy any LV. drop. - a Fish sword.

Partisan - Soul Eater - El Ada Lv26 drop. - scythe.

Partisan - Clean Brush - Friend Invitation System, requires 4 badges at the Badge Exchange Shop. - a push broom.

Wire Lance - Blade Ball - Friend Invitation System, requires 5 badges at the Badge Exchange Shop. - toy looking yoyo the one you catch on a stick.

Double Saber - Double Saber Legacy - Dig Lv21 drop. - old school PSO double saber.

Knuckle - Eight Ounces - Anne Giardini sill Lv16-35 drop. - boxing gloves.

Gun Slasher - All - any where. - varied.

Assault Rifle - Bouquet Rifle - Pre-Open Beta Dessert Completion Reward. - bouquet of flower's

Launcher - Viper Fury - Friend Invitation System, requires 5 badges at the Badge Exchange Shop. - rocket Launcher.

Twin Machine Gun - Ares Vis - Garongo Lv1-Lv30 drop. - leopard looking.

Rod - Mic Stand - Compensation Request Mikera NPC. - a mic stand.

Tallis - Duel Gaze - Dark Ragune Lv31 drop. - a yu-gi-yo card playing disc.

Tallis - Solid Straight - Friend Invitation System, requires 5 badges at the Badge Exchange Shop. - baseball and glove.


weapon's that don't have a All-Type at the moment: Twin Dagger & Wand.

Possible All-Type weapon's: Elysion, Girasole, Fal/Rika's Claws.

Non joke weapon's: Soul Eater, Double Saber Legacy, Ares Vis, and decent type's Viper Fury, Duel Gaze.

soniczx
Sep 22, 2012, 11:14 PM
I am going to make a leap of faith and say yes. Since it's a stat off the skill tree. And as of right now sega has not made a mention of a limitation to anything from the skill tree.

Considering that skills like S/R/T-Atk UP may be applied, that would really help in getting the stats for high end equips. Then what about other passives like Just Reversal or Step Attack?

Like if my HU didnt get Step Attack but my FI got them, think i can still do that when I main HU?

Or maybe like Just Reversal, all classes got em, but if my sub learns it but my main didnt, can i still use it?

If both are possible, this might change how points are spent on skill trees...

Zorafim
Sep 22, 2012, 11:58 PM
I think Step Attack can only be used with a step dodge, meaning it only works with melee weapons. So it'll work with Gunslash, but not anything else. If for some reason you got it on HU but not FI, then yeah. It'll probably count on FI.

For the most part, I wouldn't worry about optimizing your skill tree just for a few more points. The main thing is major abilities, like Fury Stance and Weak Shot. If you have those, it shouldn't matter much what else you get.

I am curious about Step Boost, and Stance Crit. If you cap step boost on the two melee classes, would that mean the step is twice as defensive? Will you be able to dodge through everything? And if you get fury crit, brave crit, and get your techer to get shifta crit... Would you even need ability after that?

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 12:17 AM
I think step advance specifies what the time is, as opposed to adding a bonus. I'm not 100% certain, but I recall the topic of whether it was a bonus or not coming up in the past.

What I'm really interested in is the reversals. Dive roll is NOT the same as step. I would assume step advance does not extend dive roll, but what about their just reversals?

Crystal_Shard
Sep 23, 2012, 12:26 AM
I think step attack specifies what the time is, as opposed to adding a bonus. I'm not 100% certain, but I recall the topic of whether it was a bonus or not coming up in the past.

What I'm really interested in is the reversals. Dive roll is NOT the same as step. I would assume step advance does not extend dive roll, but what about their just reversals?

I think you're mixing up Step Advance and Step Attack. Step Attack only requires one SP to activate after all. I'm of the opinion that Step, Dive Roll and Mirage Escape will remain independent of each other as before, and I don't think there's much of a distinction between a Just Reversal on Hu vs Ra vs Fo.

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 12:30 AM
Erm I was, thank you for noticing.

Coatl
Sep 23, 2012, 12:32 AM
So we can get just reversal on our sub classes and have it on our main?

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 12:35 AM
In theory, yes. Don't go buying and setting up skillsheets just yet, though. When I'm done unlocking gunner, I'll intentionally leave it without JR to test as a main and as a sub when this all launches.

Coatl
Sep 23, 2012, 01:15 AM
Now we just need to come up with cool names for all the sub classes.
Saying "I main a FI/HU" sounds forced.

Slidikins
Sep 23, 2012, 01:28 AM
Now we just need to come up with cool names for all the sub classes.
Saying "I main a FI/HU" sounds forced.

Fihunter? PSU style I mean, where there's a prefix and suffix...

darkante
Sep 23, 2012, 03:13 AM
Hufi puffy
Hurahh!
Tera, *kefka laugh*
Fira "feel the burn!"

nadespam
Sep 23, 2012, 03:31 AM
I have to agree with a lot of what Darki said. What is the point of <class> + Force, when <class> + Techer is a million times better. Now you can argue that, "Oh Forces have more T.Atk and do more damage with Techs." If you're going to be doing that why sub Force in the first place? If you're going to do a full charge offensive tech of any kind you're better off using Force as the main.

ORIGINALLY, I was going to go Force/Hunter, got my Soul Eater. I was ready for subclass. Then Fighter came out, they looked interesting. Tried them out, ok they were so I was going to go Force/Fighter. This was before, "You can cast techs from hotbar." During this time, datamined said that players can only cast techs from weapons. So everything was fine, which meant only Force/Techer can cast from hotbar. But ever since that video came out Forces have become obsolete. Rangers with Launchers do better AoE AND don't waste PP on it. Anyone subbing Techer will never need a Force to support them. Not only that but you get better stats from Techer and a better skill tree than Force. All of the Forces' role are gone now. The only thing they have that melee/ranged don't have is... ... ... their dodge. And I've always hated that dodge, so incredibly slow.

Now I'm going with Fighter/Techer until they change the ability to cast from hotbar.

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 03:38 AM
It's not about the damage when subbing force, it's about the elemental bonuses and the status effect chance bonuses (Which IMO should apply to affixes as another perk for the class).

Granted, zan competes with zonde with number of castings, but it still isn't the same. Weak Gizonde still hits like an aimbot, and rafoie...aimbot again. Rapid fire rafoie and lots of gizonde work not just with their damage, but their stunlock ability. Techer has advanced support, but Force has advanced techs.

Yeah, I cast techs as a RAmar back in the day when the situation called for it. They had their uses and applications, and no I don't just mean splitting slimes. Although we really need enemies with status effect weaknesses, i.e. the caves bosses freezing or the banther/banshee catching fire. Give the quartz dragon that collapsing animation every time he's successfully poisoned, etc.

Being that you can tie techs to the hotbar on a FO and then leave them there when you change classes, I never really doubted that hotbar casting would still work despite what the client suggested. That would just be too ridiculous.

And, wait a minute...are you saying FO is useless even as a main?

Coatl
Sep 23, 2012, 03:40 AM
But ever since that video came out Forces have become obsolete. Rangers with Launchers do better AoE AND don't waste PP on it. Anyone subbing T.

Lol what. Gigrants, Gizonde and zan would like a word with you.
Forces have always been, and always will be the AOE masterchiefs of PSO2.

Cyclon
Sep 23, 2012, 03:41 AM
So, I won't be able to make a complete hunter class for now. Too bad.

Apart from that, decisions decisions... Some may not be as obvious as it first seems.

What I can see right away is that hunter is awesome for everyone but force(techer deal lots of damage through wands and wand gear, on which JA bonus should apply, plus some tankiness is always welcome for them), and hilariously fighter. The reason for that is that I'd be surprised if they let us activate fury stance and brave stance at the same time.
Ranger might be the absolute best subclass thanks to weak bullet, as expected. It's far less useful if everyone has it though. Alternatively, poison traps might work very well with poison ignition of the techer.

Apart from that, techer and force also give boosts to status ailments. Most of you didn't mention it. (edit: but of course someone did in the end)

Can't say much about gunner since I haven't got it unlocked yet.

Coatl
Sep 23, 2012, 03:46 AM
So, I won't be able to make a complete hunter class for now. Too bad.

Apart from that, decisions decisions... Some may not be as obvious as it first seems.

What I can see right away is that hunter is awesome for everyone but force(techer deal lots of damage through wands and wand gear, on which Ja bonus should aplly, plus some tankiness is always welcome for them), and hilariously fighter. The reason for that is that I'd be surprised if they let us activate fury stance and brave stance at the same time.
Ranger might be the absolute best subclass thanks to weak bullet, as expected. It's far less useful if everyone has it though. Alternatively, poison traps might work very well with poison ignition of the techer.

Apart from that, techer and force also give boosts to status ailments. Most of you didn't mention it. (edit: but of course someone did in the end)

Can't say much about gunner since I haven't got it unlocked yet.

Gunners give Attack PP restraint, which at lv10 doubles the amount of PP you receive per normal attack. Would be greatly appreciated by ANY class. Also gives chain trigger, which I think won't really be all that useful except for maybe fighter, since they attack the quickest and can get the counter up the highest besides RA and GU.

Kondibon
Sep 23, 2012, 03:48 AM
Although we really need enemies with status effect weaknesses, i.e. the caves bosses freezing or the banther/banshee catching fire. Give the quartz dragon that collapsing animation every time he's successfully poisoned, etc.

This might be a bit off topic but something I noticed is that certain enemies actually DO seem to be "weak" against certain status effects, in that they proc more often, conversely it seems like some status effects proc less. In all of my time playing I've poisoned TWO darkers... TWO, both of which were of the stone/fish variety, when I find fluffy rappies and hit them with a poison weapon or tech it's almost impossible for me not to poison them before they play dead, and don't even remember ever burning a caves dragonkin.



Back on topic, I dunno how big a deal it is but combining Force with sub techer would be a great way to have a PP build and just not run out of PP.... Not that anyone cares about that kind of stuff.

Also, on another note, I noticed that if I use the mic stand as a techer I can cast techs with it. Not just off the hotbar but ones I equip on it as well. This means that regardless of which you choose, assuming they release more multi class weapons you'll be able to use all 3 tech weapons. Just some food for thought.

nadespam
Sep 23, 2012, 04:12 AM
And, wait a minute...are you saying FO is useless even as a main?

Yes, I am saying that.

What can a FO do that would benefit a group? Let's pretend EVERYONE in the group subs Techer. So you have HU/TE, RA/TE, FI/TE, and FO/TE. So, NONE of the other three needs your Shifta or Deband. They would only require a Resta if they somehow took a hit that did 50% of their HP. The RA can out AoE the FO. Whereas the FO needs to spend at most 1 sec charging up a spell. Of course the FO, with a default of 100PP, can only do this 5~7 times. Then you have to start attacking things. While the RA is still jumping and blowing up everything, from the get go.

So now they reach the boss. HU/TE is tank, they're going full tank. As full tank the HU take almost no damage, so the HU never needs a Resta from the FO as the HU has their own. Ok, ok, so that means the FO can concentrate on attacking. Again the FO is stuck with techs as a base source of damage, nice burst but no sustain. In a DPS race the person who can sustain the longest wins. The RA and FI can sustain way longer than the FO as they are constantly using basic attacks in their rotation. And it's not like their basic attack are weak either, way more than the FO atleast. The moment the FO switches to basic attack the FO falls behind. It's not even like the FO can add basic attacks into their rotation. Because you're either in melee range with great burst but asking to die, or ranged and doing less damage.

Best example of AoE fight is during PSE Burst. Ranger + Launcher blowing up everything over and over again, from where their current position... you know what I do? "Gigrant, Gigrant, Gigrant... oh I have to walk over there... Gigrant... oh I'm out of PP, time to basic attack. Alright need to find more living things to build my PP faster."

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 04:14 AM
I don't particularly feel like trying to convince you you're wrong, so I'll let you keep believing a team of 4 players all subbing as techer is efficient.

nadespam
Sep 23, 2012, 04:18 AM
Yes, because I didn't use the word, "PRETEND". Nope.avi

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 04:19 AM
Oh, well, if you were pretending to say something wrong then that makes the wrong thing right.

FlameOfYagami
Sep 23, 2012, 04:21 AM
I'm kinda like "meh" about the subclass system :(

I would love to make a ForteFighter/Fightmaster type class in PSo2 but that seems impossible atm.

I want a TRUE fighter class. One that is an expert at melee.

Sure you can say main HU and sub FI but nah that's not really a fortefighter.

That aside though, I think I may just start unlocking the Techer class :O

I know it seems weird, but i'm probably gonna go with HU/TE lmao. If i'm not mistaken (and please correct me if i'm wrong) I can heal/buff myself without a wand so I will use my 40 skill points maxing out all of the support skills that TE has and then use em as my HU. Should make a pretty powerful Hunter LOL.

nadespam
Sep 23, 2012, 04:23 AM
I'm giving an example of why a Force was useful. Pre-sub class the Force could heal the tank and/or the melee, buff the party, be something useful. Once sub class hits Forces lose their greatest usefulness. Techs are cool but Forces have always been a support based class, and if you lose that role what do you have left?

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 04:27 AM
They have superior crowd control burst attacks and mobility while they do it.

If you don't think FO is any good don't play it. Many of us will continue to because we don't feel launcher makes up for the power, range, utility, versatility, mobility, or strength of techs, and techer sure as shit can't rapid fire foie-based techs or borderline infinitely cast zonde techs. 20 PP left? That's 3 zondes right there, or 2 gizondes.

nadespam
Sep 23, 2012, 04:30 AM
If you don't think FO is any good don't play it.

Yeah, that's why I'm dropping my FO main and going FI/TE. Until they do something about the sub class system.

Coatl
Sep 23, 2012, 04:35 AM
Techs are cool but Forces have always been a support based class, and if you lose that role what do you have left?

The best Aoe in the game.

nadespam
Sep 23, 2012, 04:36 AM
The best Aoe in the game.

Best burst AoE, yes. Best sustain AoE, no.

Spellbinder
Sep 23, 2012, 04:43 AM
Excuse me, but for a moment I thought someone was trying to throw strange notions of holy trinity (tank, damage dealer, support) into PSO2. Can we stop pretending this is some other MMO and get back on topic please?

Resanoca
Sep 23, 2012, 04:43 AM
Now we just need to come up with cool names for all the sub classes.
Saying "I main a FI/HU" sounds forced.FUNter.

EvilMag
Sep 23, 2012, 04:44 AM
I'm playing Hunter/Fighter because Sakai recommends it.

Coatl
Sep 23, 2012, 04:54 AM
Best burst AoE, yes. Best sustain AoE, no.

The only scenario where burst aoe damage isn't the best aoe damage is PSE bursts.
And even in those forces have mags that regenerate their PP so much, it'd be difficult to run out.

nadespam
Sep 23, 2012, 05:14 AM
Excuse me, but for a moment I thought someone was trying to throw strange notions of holy trinity (tank, damage dealer, support) into PSO2. Can we stop pretending this is some other MMO and get back on topic please?

Before I get back on topic. SEGA built their based on that. Only 1 class that can tank properly, even having taunt and an ability/stance which reduces the most common damage. Then you have a support/heal class. Then you have a ranged class who does great at damage and not taking damage. Old PSO you just swung at things and moved on. New PSO it's more trinity based.


The only scenario where burst aoe damage isn't the best aoe damage is PSE bursts.
And even in those forces have mags that regenerate their PP so much, it'd be difficult to run out.

Because everyone just boss rushes right? And the PP regen, if only it wasn't so random.

GETTING BACK ON TOPIC:

What I would have really like is if they limit all your sub-classes PA/Tech to 50% of their max level, or some other percentage. So if you have Gigrant lv.3 then it would be lv.1, rounding down for more balance, if you aren't maining a support class. Having fingers crossed for this much, with this I can still main FO at the very least.

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 05:24 AM
You are suffering from an EXTREME case of greener-on-the-other-side-itis. Have you even played ranger?

If all you do is 12 player MPA stuff I guess with all the stunlocking just launcher spamming all day has no issues, but cripes you're making it sound like force is as useless as it was in v1. It's not. It's not even close.

And the entire class trinity collapses when you consider the best AOE AND burst damage class is the force.

The percentages on the techs don't matter half as much as t-atk. Low t-atk = bad damage. Problem solved.

nadespam
Sep 23, 2012, 05:42 AM
No, no, no. I don't care about sub-class's tech damage. I'm just care about the buffs and heals. Of course they'll do crap damage with their techs, that's a no brainer. I even said that already. If you're casting offensive techs with a sub class, might as well main it. But the support they get from the sub class starts causing problems. And since none of the support tech scales with T-ATK them having the same level as a main makes it imba. Actually, that's what balanced PSO. Forces could use Lv.30, non-Force male was 15, and non-Force female was 20.

If the sub-class gets the same level as the main then you get this problem. RA/TE, good ranged AoE without wasting PP, good ranged burst damage, and can easily gather PP to heal/buff group. As a Force your whole damage is based on your PP, how is another class doing what you're doing but easier? If you want to do damage you give up your ability to support, if you want to support you give up your ability to to damage. That RA/TE gives up almost nothing.

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 05:49 AM
Ah, I see. That's a legit concern. I've thought for a while S&D duration should be partially based on t-atk.

edit: By being a ra/te the player does sacrifice the bonuses gained from ra/gu, and being buffed by another support character, but that doesn't mitigate subbed tech classes having the same level S&D.

jooozek
Sep 23, 2012, 06:04 AM
Damn, that Cetus Proi is sure random.

valmont
Sep 23, 2012, 06:07 AM
i wish sega expand the skilltrees of all class a little bit..
just adding a "equip (weapon)" skill will be enough..
with that skill, i can equip launcher type weapons if Ra is equipped as a subclass..
ex. in RA skilltree there will be a "equip launcher" skill..
if i activated that skill, as a Gu-Ra/Hu-Ra i will be able to equip my launcher..
FF tactics has this, its simple but will pleased everyone.. XD
sorry for the bad english..

nadespam
Sep 23, 2012, 06:23 AM
Damn, that Cetus Proi is sure random.

I would say something, but it will get off topic again so I won't.


i wish sega expand the skilltrees of all class a little bit..
just adding a "equip (weapon)" skill will be enough..
with that skill, i can equip launcher type weapons if Ra is equipped as a subclass..
ex. in RA skilltree there will be a "equip launcher" skill..
if i activated that skill, as a Gu-Ra/Hu-Ra i will be able to equip my launcher..
FF tactics has this, its simple but will pleased everyone.. XD
sorry for the bad english..

This actually isn't bad. The biggest problem is that most people have already done some of their skill trees so it would wreck their wallets. Unless SEGA resets all skill trees for free.

Agitated_AT
Sep 23, 2012, 08:35 AM
An unbalanced game to an even more unbalanced game.

Bravo PSO team

Enforcer MKV
Sep 23, 2012, 08:49 AM
Noble, yet vain attempts

Just let it go, man. Just let it go.


Excuse me, but for a moment I thought someone was trying to throw strange notions of holy trinity (tank, damage dealer, support) into PSO2. Can we stop pretending this is some other MMO and get back on topic please?

I love you. :heartcookie:

XD

Sephirah
Sep 23, 2012, 08:56 AM
Now we just need to come up with cool names for all the sub classes.
Saying "I main a FI/HU" sounds forced.

I'm gonna play a FI/TE, or a FITER. ;)

NoiseHERO
Sep 23, 2012, 08:58 AM
An unbalanced game to an even more unbalanced game.

Bravo PSO team

How is this game unbalanced? There's no competition!

Besides now every leetist tool can sub weak-bullet, I mean ranger.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:04 AM
How is this game unbalanced? There's no competition!

Besides now every leetist tool can sub weak-bullet, I mean ranger.

Only if you're lucky or extremely rich to buy a limited-relase weapon that makes you look like an idiot and that at some point won't be aviable because once you use it you account-bind it.



We can do all the conceptual gymnastics we want, but the fact is that the subclass system is a dissapointment to everybdoy except for those who luckily were expecting for a class combination and a gameplay in particular that didn't get that diminished by the weapon restriction.

Even if that was the case, I'd still be dissapointed for the lack of options and variety in the game population's classes. Sadly, many of those people wouldn't complain because they got what they wanted even with a broken system for anybody else... Like somebody with the above mentality.

If they don't allow the use of subclass weapons by some means, like adding sets of regular "free for all" weapons or with restrictions that allow certain combinations to use them, or some other way that would unlock the use of current weapons with our subclasses, this system is even worse than PSU's.

I'm sure that, while I'm not going to "raqequit" because of this, I'm certainly going to enjoy this game much less, and this is going to lead to me quitting the game much sooner out of boredom. And I'm not going to force myself to play a game that bores me because that would just make me get fed up with it much sooner. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. But well, it's their game.

Gama
Sep 23, 2012, 09:07 AM
unless some "any class weapons" are released, ill go fite instead of tefi. :/

Cyclon
Sep 23, 2012, 09:12 AM
An unbalanced game to an even more unbalanced game.

Bravo PSO team

...

I've been wondering... would we be complaining even half as much if, instead of announcing sub-classes and explaining how they'd function roughly a month after that, they had given us the whole information at either of these two moments?

I mean, it's hard to rejoice about something you hardly know anything about, but then having expectations is pretty normal, and when these expectations aren't met, you're pissed. So, at no point were you happy.

I'm saying that because that's not the first time this happens. Funny thing is, the game is getting better and better, and I see more and more people complaining.

BIG OLAF
Sep 23, 2012, 09:14 AM
unless some "any class weapons" are released, ill go fite instead of tefi. :/

I'd imagine SEGA has a plan to release quite a few more all-class weapons once the subclass system is out and rolling.

However, that may just be wishful thinking.

NoiseHERO
Sep 23, 2012, 09:15 AM
Only if you're lucky or extremely rich to buy a limited-relase weapon that makes you look like an idiot and that at some point won't be aviable because once you use it you account-bind it.



We can do all the conceptual gymnastics we want, but the fact is that the subclass system is a dissapointment to everybdoy except for those who luckily were expecting for a class combination and a gameplay in particular that didn't get that diminished by the weapon restriction.

Even if that was the case, I'd still be dissapointed for the lack of options and variety in the game population's classes. Sadly, many of those people wouldn't complain because they got what they wanted even with a broken system for anybody else... Like somebody with the above mentality.

If they don't allow the use of subclass weapons by some means, like adding sets of regular "free for all" weapons or with restrictions that allow certain combinations to use them, or some other way that would unlock the use of current weapons with our subclasses, this system is even worse than PSU's.

I'm sure that, while I'm not going to "raqequit" because of this, I'm certainly going to enjoy this game much less, and this is going to lead to me quitting the game much sooner out of boredom. And I'm not going to force myself to play a game that bores me because that would just make me get fed up with it much sooner. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. But well, it's their game.

honestly I'm having enough fun with the current classes enough to the point where I don't care about this one flaw the subs have. you get 20% of their stats AND all of their skills. that's a HUGE boost in power/functionality as it is.

Also It looks bad now, but I think it's pretty obvious that they would release more efficient all-class weapons. they probably just wanted the joke weapons to be all-class related in general (because they're joke weapons)

If anything I wouldn't be surprised if they made all-class weapons specifically designed for you main and sub class combinations. But if not...

Then ehn...

Sucks to be any "hardcore" player that didn't grab a bouquet rifle.




edit: Also cyclon is right... they give us vague info to anticipate and speculate on(I guess it's hype fuel spoiler advertising). Everyone speculates on what they WANT. it doesn't come out that way, but what they did wasn't bad either. Yet people end up disappointed anyway.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:15 AM
...

I've been wondering... would we be complaining even half as much if, instead of announcing sub-classes and explaining how they'd function roughly a month after that, they had given us the whole information at either of these two moments?

I mean, it's hard to rejoice about something you hardly know anything about, but then having expectations is pretty normal, and when these expectations aren't met, you're pissed. So, at no point were you happy.

I'm saying that because that's not the first time this happens. Funny thing is, the game is getting better and better, and I see more and more people complaining.



But the thing is many of us were expecting them for reasons that were already ruled out in the current announcement, so why would we wait to complain? If I wanted to play FI/HU to have double Sabers and Swords I would be already dissapointed about the game, it would mean that all I have left is to play the same class I've been playing till now but with a couple more skills, or using a mock weapon to fill the gap, that is not even remotely satisfying for most of us.

If you don't have reasons to complain then be happy, but let the ones who have do so.

Cyclon
Sep 23, 2012, 09:18 AM
But the thing is many of us were expecting them for reasons that were already ruled out in the current announcement, so why would we wait to complain? If I wanted to play FI/HU to have double Sabers and Swords I would be already dissapointed about the game, it would mean that all I have left is to play the same class I've been playing till now but with a couple more skills, or using a mock weapon to fill the gap, that is not even remotely satisfying for most of us.

If you don't have reasons to complain then be happy, but let the ones who have do so.

You misunderstood. What I was saying is that their way of advertising updates might be wrong.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:19 AM
honestly I'm having enough fun with the current classes enough to the point where I don't care about this one flaw the subs have. you get 20% of their stats AND all of their skills. that's a HUGE boost in power/functionality as it is.

Congratulations then. Not everybody cared about power, many of uss also wanted new playstyles.


Also It looks bad now, but I think it's pretty obvious that they would release more efficient all-class weapons. they probably just wanted the joke weapons to be all-class related in general (because they're joke weapons)

If anything I wouldn't be surprised if they made all-class weapons specifically designed for you main and sub class combinations. But if not...

The moment they do then I'll be happy, I'm just commenting what we know NOW.


Then ehn...

Sucks to be any "hardcore" player that didn't grab a bouquet rifle.

I guess then you can't be a hardcore player unless you player since the Pre Open Beta.

NoiseHERO
Sep 23, 2012, 09:19 AM
/edited previous post in reply to cylonononon

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:22 AM
Well, I would be dissapointed anyways if they had announced that from the beginning. They had already hybrid classes in PSU, and they know people like them. Not adding them is a dissapointment on its own.

NoiseHERO
Sep 23, 2012, 09:23 AM
Congratulations then. Not everybody cared about power, many of uss also wanted new playstyles.



The moment they do then I'll be happy, I'm just commenting what we know NOW.



I guess then you can't be a hardcore player unless you player since the Pre Open Beta.


I didn't say EVERYONE, was simply stating first why >I< wasn't all broken up about this, don't make me a badguy, now.

If you can make an assumption for the worse case scenario you can give the possibility of SEGA NOT being retarded a chance, too. I REALLY don't think they'd troll everyone by saying "joke weapons onry"

and LOOOOOOOL Pre-Beaters. (SAO joke)

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:26 AM
I didn't say EVERYONE, was simply stating first why >I< wasn't all broken up about this, don't make me a badguy, now.

Not trying to make you a bad guy, I juat want you to understand my point. as I said in a previous post, this is not only about hybrids and stuff, there's people I know who wanted to go "fortefighter" and try stuff like knuckles and wired lances, or Swords and Double Sabers, and not even that we can do. a HU/FI is just a Hunter with another stat increasing skill. Is not too interesting, from my point of view.


If you can make an assumption for the worse case scenario you can give the possibility of SEGA NOT being retarded a chance, too. I REALLY don't think they'd troll everyone by saying "joke weapons onry"

Well, it wouldn't be the first time thay do something as retarded as this. In a normal case I'd assume that they're going to add more free-for-all weapons, but when you throw the SEGA name in, and I can't stop remembering my beloved Guntechers and their Double Saber update. In any case I honestly hope they don't surpass that low anytime soon.

Sephirah
Sep 23, 2012, 09:27 AM
I can't believe you guys are letting Darki troll you again.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:31 AM
I can't believe you guys are letting Darki troll you again.

Because you can't be dissapointed for an update without being a troll, of course. xD

Sp-24
Sep 23, 2012, 09:34 AM
Guess you can thank idiots who took great effort in shooting down the datamined report just because it didn't correspond to their fantasy for these news being such a surprise now. But yeah, there will be more universal weapons later. There's no way all those recolors are 10* stuff.

Cyclon
Sep 23, 2012, 09:35 AM
Well, I would be dissapointed anyways if they had announced that from the beginning. They had already hybrid classes in PSU, and they know people like them. Not adding them is a dissapointment on its own.
You wouldn't have had a chance to be disappointed though, since there would always have been a chance that they'd simply add them later.

But really, I'm not telling you not to complain. I'm actually trying to think the same way the disappointed people do. Then again you might be right, maybe it wouldn't change anything. That was just a thought.

Mystil
Sep 23, 2012, 09:38 AM
Well, I would be dissapointed anyways

We know.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:39 AM
Guess you can thank idiots who took great effort in shooting down the datamined report just because it didn't correspond to their fantasy for these news being such a surprise now. But yeah, there will be more universal weapons later. There's no way all those recolors are 10* stuff.

Well, you can actually blame those "idiots" on not believing that SEGA would do such a stupid move. But then there's the problem: If you think the worst you're an idiot because you always try to put down the info, and if you're optimistic, then you're an idiot when SEGA actually fucks itself off... Then what? xD

Also, that dataminded report also stated that we wouldn't be able to use techs even choosing techer subclasses. And people also took great efforts in shooting down that info just because it didn't make sense. So are they idiots too? Because they actually hit bullseye.

The problem with datamined info is that we don't know what's going to stay, what's going to be changed and what's going to be added. you can't simply call "idiot" to somebody for taking a guess, because you have right here an example of two guesses taken by pretty much the same individuals, and at the end it happened that one is wrong and the other is right.


We know.

Nice way of ignoring the whole post but for an incomplete sentence just to make an unnecesary troll attemp. *thumbs up*

Cyclon
Sep 23, 2012, 09:46 AM
Well, you can actually blame those "idiots" on not believing SEGA would do such a stupid move.
This could be stupid, or we could not be seeing the bigger picture yet. Or both.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:51 AM
This could be stupid, or we could not be seeing the bigger picture yet. Or both.

I refer to what I just said. The same "wishful thinking" that made those people to believe we'd have access to subclass weapons was the same that made them believe we'd have access to technics when choosing a techer subclass.

Of course we don't know the whole plan that SEGA has for the game, but that doesn't make it any better, if not, look at PSU. As I said I'm just commenting the current update. And the fact is that we have 30 options to combine class and subclass, while most of them are worthless. I don't think that's a good move. If they fix it with more free-for-all weapons I'll say "good job SEGA" at that moment, and you can quote me on this, I don't have any problem to admit a mistake.

In fact, I REALLY hope I made a mistake on this, unless you believe I want a game I like to fail. <_<

Sephirah
Sep 23, 2012, 09:57 AM
In fact, I REALLY hope I made a mistake on this, unless you believe I want a game I like to fail. <_<

I believe this with every fiber of my being. Because you'd rather the game fail and be right, than it succeed and be wrong.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:58 AM
I believe this with every fiber of my being. Because you'd rather the game fail and be right, than it succeed and be wrong.

Do you honestly think I don't want to enjoy a game series I love since I first played it in Gamecube, and that I prefer the satisfaction of "wining an argument" on the internetz over people like you?

Then you're more stupid than I though you were. xD And every fiber of your being is wrong, though.

Sephirah
Sep 23, 2012, 10:01 AM
Do you honestly think I don't want to enjoy a game series I love since I first played it in Gamecube, and that I prefer the satisfaction of "wining an argument" on the internetz over people like you?

Then you're more stupid than I though you were. xD

I think you'd get far more satisfaction feeling like you're better than everyone here, just like you think you are right now. More than you could ever get from simply playing this fantastic game.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 10:05 AM
I think you'd get far more satisfaction feeling like you're better than everyone here, just like you think you are right now. More than you could ever get from simply playing this fantastic game.

If I really needed to feel the satisfaction of feeling like I was better than anybody here I wouldn't have spent 6 years playing Wartecher for fun and enjoying every second of it (which doesn't mean that I can't complain about things that I wish were a bit better, of course).

And in what matter exactly do you believe I'm claiming to be better than anybody now? You're delusional.

Sephirah
Sep 23, 2012, 10:09 AM
And in what matter exactly do you believe I'm claiming to be better than anybody now? You're delusional.

Why don't you take your head out from between your legs and read your posts. You're talking down to everyone here.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 10:11 AM
Why don't you take your head out from between your legs and read your posts. You're talking down to everyone here.

Can you point to me exactly when I did that, then? Maybe I didn't notice doing that.

In any case I don't see why saying that I don't like how the subclasses work is talking down to everyone. You could say the same to the one who called idiots to those who speculated about the datamined info, at least I didn't started the name-calling...

Agitated_AT
Sep 23, 2012, 10:11 AM
How is this game unbalanced? There's no competition!

Besides now every leetist tool can sub weak-bullet, I mean ranger.

You are missing the point. I'ts not about the competition. It's about how easy the game allready is. Now it's just gonna become more easy unless they adjust enemies to the new 20% extra stats and movesets.

Competition has nothing to do with it.... well it does suck if you pick a class combination that the game itself doesn't support so much in the sense of it being lacking in comparison to others. Balance is nice because it keeps the choices equel instead of having one best choice.

Besides.. I never thought subclasses were going to work. Either you pour alot of time into balancing it(which would take alot of work) or you don't. What they did was execute a great idea in a horrible and rushed way. As i've said, subclasses would require alot of balance and imo it would have best been avoided. I like having 1 unique class anyway and this comes from a major PSO fan where hunters were still able to use magic.

Spellbinder
Sep 23, 2012, 10:15 AM
ou are missing the point. I'ts not about the competition. It's about how easy the game allready is. Now it's just gonna become more easy unless they adjust enemies to the new 20% extra stats and movesets.

Just my guess, but I think Very Hard and eventually Ultimate will take care of that. I think there's a reason the new difficulty is coming out along side a way to add additional stats onto our classes.

Agitated_AT
Sep 23, 2012, 10:28 AM
Just my guess, but I think Very Hard and eventually Ultimate will take care of that. I think there's a reason the new difficulty is coming out along side a way to add additional stats onto our classes.

Well to be fair, it's terrible game design to have the game be boring easy till a certain point(which is really far into the game in pso2 let alone with subclasses). Most people (non-fans) would have allready stopped playing instead of how pso1 has instantly hooked some of us to still be here to this day.

But then again, there are alot of casuals as well. But I defenitly don't hope that it's that what they are aiming for. Having a casual audience may produce alot of profit, but not alot of respect from fanatic game lovers, or as some may call it, the hardcore. On the long run the latter is the one that will stick to the end

So yeah i'm personally hoping that the game will become harder eventually. We've had the survey so i'm still curious for the results of that.

Sephirah
Sep 23, 2012, 10:34 AM
Here is an interesting question about subclasses.

All the class trees have their "dash" by default (step/mirage/dive).

So for people like me who want to go FI/TE, how will it know which dash move to use? Will it try to use both? :P

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 10:37 AM
Here is an interesting question about subclasses.

All the class trees have their "dash" by default (step/mirage/dive).

So for people like me who want to go FI/TE, how will it know which dash move to use? Will it try to use both? :P

It's not class related but weapon related. For example if you're a Force or a Ranger using a gunslash you do the "Hunter" step dodge. Same happens if you're using a Duel Gaze as a Hunter, you do the "Force" mirage escape dodge.

Sephirah
Sep 23, 2012, 10:41 AM
It's not class related but weapon related. For example if you're a Force or a Ranger using a gunslash you do the "hunter" step.

Oh yea, it works like that now. I'm pretty tired.... Disregard :P

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 10:43 AM
Oh yea, it works like that now. I'm pretty tired.... Disregard :P

It always worked like that... <_<

Sephirah
Sep 23, 2012, 10:44 AM
It always worked like that... <_<

I know, hence why I said now. :P

Skyly HUmar
Sep 23, 2012, 10:55 AM
You are missing the point. I'ts not about the competition. It's about how easy the game allready is. Now it's just gonna become more easy unless they adjust enemies to the new 20% extra stats and movesets.

Competition has nothing to do with it.... well it does suck if you pick a class combination that the game itself doesn't support so much in the sense of it being lacking in comparison to others. Balance is nice because it keeps the choices equel instead of having one best choice.

Besides.. I never thought subclasses were going to work. Either you pour alot of time into balancing it(which would take alot of work) or you don't. What they did was execute a great idea in a horrible and rushed way. As i've said, subclasses would require alot of balance and imo it would have best been avoided. I like having 1 unique class anyway and this comes from a major PSO fan where hunters were still able to use magic.



No offense, but to you I say shut up

lol, i agree 100%. I think that the only reason why i still play is because the game is called PSO2. I like some things they've done in the game, but sakai is just slowly killing the game for me.

Griffin
Sep 23, 2012, 10:59 AM
Same with Skyly. I play it because it's PSO2, but I realize it's not an ultimate successor, but it is my action fix when I'm done playing GW2.

Slidikins
Sep 23, 2012, 11:08 AM
So yeah i'm personally hoping that the game will become harder eventually. We've had the survey so i'm still curious for the results of that.It most likely will. A lot of people here are looking back on PSO with rose-tinted glasses, but Hard mode was a cakewalk there as well. Same with PSU if you bothered to step outside White Beast. The content release schedule just isn't matching up with a lot of people's near-obsessive gaming routine is all.

As for subclasses, I'm just going to wait and see before bashing the system. The new classes didn't eclipse the old ones like people predicted, and there are too many variables to determine how things are going to work. Judging off the skill descriptions this has been in the design since, well, Alpha, so SEGA might know what they're doing.

Spellbinder
Sep 23, 2012, 11:25 AM
It most likely will. A lot of people here are looking back on PSO with rose-tinted glasses, but Hard mode was a cakewalk there as well. Same with PSU if you bothered to step outside White Beast. The content release schedule just isn't matching up with a lot of people's near-obsessive gaming routine is all.

My thoughts exactly.

Agitated_AT
Sep 23, 2012, 11:36 AM
It most likely will. A lot of people here are looking back on PSO with rose-tinted glasses, but Hard mode was a cakewalk there as well. Same with PSU if you bothered to step outside White Beast. The content release schedule just isn't matching up with a lot of people's near-obsessive gaming routine is all.
I think it's not people looking back to PSO with rose tinted glasses. I think it's people like you who's memory has faded and now just say what's easily going to support their arguments.

Some of us actually still play PSObb sometimes and still have a clear view on how that game plays, and no the game wasn't just regularly hard on hard(see the mode name actually made sense in the game), but the game actually started challenging on normal. Oh yeah it did

If you disagree, either you haven't played the game in a longtime, or everytime you have, the only thing you did was TTF in company with high lvl players.

Now we're only talking about 1 element of PSO1. Don't get me wrong, as a whole I like PSO2 alot better than pso1, but the issue im stating is a major one for me. See i'm being realistic instead of just saying everything to defend my position. PSO 1 is now full of flaws and hasn't aged well in those perspectives. I recognize that. But I also recognize how great, tense and thrilling the difficulty was in PSO1, allthough cheap at times. However that is the only praise i'll give it in comparison to PSO2.

Slidikins
Sep 23, 2012, 11:51 AM
Some of us actually still play PSObb sometimes and still have a clear view on how that game plays, and no the game wasn't just regularly hard on hard(see the mode name actually made sense in the game), but the game actually started challenging on normal. Oh yeah it did :)

If you disagree, either you haven't played the game in a longtime, or everytime you have, the only thing you did was TTF in company with high lvl players.I play PSO:BB fairly often. I still play PSO Ep I & II on GC with my SO because it's easier playing split screen than having someone on a laptop. I'm quite familiar with the game and no, Hard mode was not hard at all (once you knew the game). And I'm not someone that just runs TTF; I prefer going through all the quests and areas to enjoy the story of the game.

Back in '99 when I started, the game didn't present a single challenge until De Rol Le (which prompted me to play online). Similarly in PSO2, I didn't run into any setbacks until Vol Dragon decided to show me up. Once the ball got rolling, though, PSO wasn't a notably difficult game until Ultimate. Sure, Falz' last form got some easy kills with Grants and you had to work around it, but strategies overall didn't come into play until the last difficulty setting. Again, I'm speaking from personal experience.

Personal experience and/or skill aside, I view PSO2 as being in its infancy state. It came out of beta a couple months ago (if that) and V.Hard isn't unlocked yet. In PSO V. Hard was unlocked at Lv40 (of 200) and was the hardest mode of PSO v1. Maybe when we run through there we can see if the game can be tough or not, but judging everything on Hard is silly.

If you disagree, well, I'm not going to make any incorrect assumptions about you. You're entitled to your opinion.

Additionally, a good friend of mine is playing PSO2 and he finds Hard mode to be quite frustrating. He's not as experienced in the action rpg genre and runs into troubles every which way. To him, the difficulty level is aptly named. Just a view from the opposite side of the spectrum.

Stormwalker
Sep 23, 2012, 11:54 AM
I do think the game is going to get harder. And I do think people are remembering PSO's lower difficulties as harder than they were.

My Gamecube is still hooked up, and I still break out my old PSO Episode I & II disc from time to time just for nostalgia's sake. Standard enemy spawns didn't become difficult until the speed really ramped up in Very Hard (unless you were underleveled or lacking in defense), and the bosses were strictly pattern recognition fights; once you learned the pattern, any PSO Episode I boss was absurdly easy.

Episode II upped the difficulty quite a bit, but that didn't come out until much later; this game is every bit as difficult as Dreamcast PSO ver. 2 Normal and Hard modes were... and once Very Hard is in, it will have *much* more content than that game did.

I expect that we will find Very Hard to be a significant upgrade in difficulty (especially with only 10 more levels added to the cap) and I hope to eventually see an Ultimate mode.

Agitated_AT
Sep 23, 2012, 12:03 PM
I play PSO:BB fairly often. I still play PSO Ep I & II on GC with my SO because it's easier playing split screen than having someone on a laptop. I'm quite familiar with the game and no, Hard mode was not hard at all (once you knew the game). And I'm not someone that just runs TTF; I prefer going through all the quests and areas to enjoy the story of the game.

Back in '99 when I started, the game didn't present a single challenge until De Rol Le (which prompted me to play online). Similarly in PSO2, I didn't run into any setbacks until Vol Dragon decided to show me up. Once the ball got rolling, though, PSO wasn't a notably difficult game until Ultimate. Sure, Falz' last form got some easy kills with Grants and you had to work around it, but strategies overall didn't come into play until the last difficulty setting. Again, I'm speaking from personal experience.

Personal experience and/or skill aside, I view PSO2 as being in its infancy state. It came out of beta a couple months ago (if that) and V.Hard isn't unlocked yet. In PSO V. Hard was unlocked at Lv40 (of 200) and was the hardest mode of PSO v1. Maybe when we run through there we can see if the game can be tough or not, but judging everything on Hard is silly.

If you disagree, well, I'm not going to make any incorrect assumptions about you. You're entitled to your opinion.

Additionally, a good friend of mine is playing PSO2 and he finds Hard mode to be quite frustrating. He's not as experienced in the action rpg genre and runs into troubles every which way. To him, the difficulty level is aptly named. Just a view from the opposite side of the spectrum.



So basically what you're saying is that you could do all episode 1 in one run without encountering difficulties? Because how I experience it still today is that even after forest towards the caves, I find myself going back to forest to level up a little bit because enemies still slap the shit out of me. In PSO2 I find myself doing the emergency mission with lvl 16 enemies while im lvl 6, with ease. The only reason for that is because the enemy behaviour is so restrained, like 80% of the time.

You see this is also a very good point. Enemies in pso1 do actually come and attack you. The AI may be simple and mindless, but at the end of the day, that's what you expect monsters to do. Come and attack you. Also I see you state vol dragon as a challenging experience. You are making another good point there. I'm taking in mind how easy you find PSO1 so I assume PSO2 must be alot easier for you then. My question would be, apart from the bosses, have you experienced any challenge within the fields? Now remember, apart from the bosses, because everytime I complain about difficulty, I always exclude the bosses. I always forget to be clear about that.

My answer would be, in time attack I have. I love time attack mode

Galax
Sep 23, 2012, 12:03 PM
If PSO2 ends up with Ultimate, I do believe traps will be able to one shot us.

If it's aptly named, we'll at least be in the red on our HP.

EDIT: As to difficulty in PSO1...It seriously depends. When I STARTED, back on PSOXbox, I made a FOmar. Yes, forest was challenging. I had to redo it and redo it before I even dared to try Caves. However, rather than mess about in Caves like I did in Forest, I went back to Forest to level - To date, there is not a boss I hate more than De Rol. Not even Olga pisses me off more, with his 'LOL YOU'RE FLOWEN' attack and Divine Punishment raining down. I know for others it was extremely easy blah blah good gear memorizing spawns and patterns, and that's great for them - But that explains the other side of the argument as much as the one that supports "Boss fights are easy if you remember the pattern." Not all of us either care enough, play enough, or have room in our heads enough to memorize the patterns of Dragon, Sil Dragon, De Rol Le, Dal Ra Lie, Vol Opt/V2, Dark Falz form one two and three, Barba Ray, Gol Dragon, Gal Grypon, and Olga Flow. Then, for those of us who moved on to Blue Burst, we have to watch the Dorphons, Zus, remember what movement means what attack with all three forms of the boss - Saint Million, Krondieu, Shambertin - and don't get me started on being a Ranger against a mixed horde of Lizards, Zus, and those dark mobs in sub desert.

Let's not forget the other infuriating mobs, though - Delbiters, Deldepth, Nano Dragons at times, and that first encounter with Pan Arms, or maybe Ob Lillies? What about being frozen by Crimson Assassin, remember that when you're being attacked by Vulmers and the aforementioned flowers? And the Meri family, oh those bastards...

Yes, the game could easily be called frustrating, and memorizing the attack patterns of that many mobs will take you a while, and some of us just say "You know what, I can't remember all this" and do our best. Some of the second group - people like me - Get pissed and eventually refuse to have anything to do with Episode II after a while because of that. This goes for any game with variable gear, and it applies well in Phantasy Star titles; If you work on your gear, get better equips, you will have an easier time, and not have to memorize as much. I, for one, didn't do that, and just wanted to play for fun - So, that caused me to have an added trouble in addition to my trouble memorizing all the patterns for mobs that pissed me off.

tldr? Hard is subjective. The above is how I find it, and I think hard mode on PSO2 isn't that bad, but that's just my opinion. There's no real point arguing it.

EDIT 2: I also don't believe in not finding difficulties in the field, sorry to say - You'll eventually find one, it's the way the game is.

Slidikins
Sep 23, 2012, 12:14 PM
My answer would be, in time attack I have. I love time attack mode :)
I'm still looking to play TA myself as Challenge mode is what had me coming back to PSO for awhile.

As for your question, difficulty in the fields... not so much difficulty but frustration. As you said, enemies in PSO2 don't come towards you. I spent a lot of time chasing things down only to barely miss because the monster decides that fighting isn't the way. Every now and again I'll run into a messy situation (usually 2 E-Codes on top of eachother, one being an avoid) which I find fun, but not extremely challenging.

Running Episode 1 in one go no problems? If I were just going through area after area, I'll be underleveled by Mines. Then I'd have problems. If I were doing Hunters Guild and/or Government Quests, I'd be a-okay. They pad out the game, help you level, and get you geared nicely all at the same time. Client Orders aren't the same, but focusing on them and the matter board helps ease things too.

But I'm straying from my original point, which is: no matter how hard or easy you find the game now, I don't believe it's at its hardest. PSO2 feels easy now, yes. I don't recall people begging for S/D on Hard (or V. Hard) on PSO. But I distinctly recall everyone wanting it constantly on Ultimate. Why do I bring this up? Because people here are panning Techer's support skills and I'm salty.

*ahem* I digress again. The game, outside of bosses, is easy to me. I'd like to say I've gotten pretty decent at gaming since I picked up a controller 22 years ago. But I don't feel inclined to label PSO2 as an easy game. I think there's a lot more to see before I can judge it.

I just hope others would stop reaching conclusions without any evidence.

Limbo_lag
Sep 23, 2012, 12:31 PM
I seriously hope that these new modes will still be doable with non-specialised classes. I'm feeling pretty gimped as a Hu with a Ra mag already :/

Sephirah
Sep 23, 2012, 12:33 PM
I seriously hope that these new modes will still be doable with non-specialised classes. I'm feeling pretty gimped as a Hu with a Ra mag already :/

As a HU with an RA mag, you should feel gimped.

Limbo_lag
Sep 23, 2012, 12:47 PM
Oh no, I main RA. Probably should have said "while leveling HU". Not sure if it has been said already, but I'm stoked about GU/RA passive skill stackings :D. My main concern is that higher difficulties and levels in the future may require spending AC for new mags to be playable at all.

Sephirah
Sep 23, 2012, 12:49 PM
Oh no, I main Ra. Probably should have said "while leveling Hu". My main concern is that higher difficulties and levels in he future may require spending AC for new mags to be playable at all.

Of course that will happen. SEGA wants people to spend money. So unless you want to be stuck with sub-par or ill-informed decisions, you HAVE to pay money to fix it.

Enforcer MKV
Sep 23, 2012, 01:23 PM
..... -.-

My god, can we just stay on topic, dammit?

Going Ranger/Techer, because Guntecher.

What's everyone else going?

Slidikins
Sep 23, 2012, 01:28 PM
Going Ranger/Techer, because Guntecher RAmarl.
What's everyone else going?Pretty much the same... though while I'm leveling Techer I'm liking it a lot and may make it my main. I might just have to sub Hunter though... and that's not leveled at all. ^^;

Gardios
Sep 23, 2012, 01:29 PM
Paladin HU/TE, obviously.

valmont
Sep 23, 2012, 01:40 PM
i will be GuRa obviously.. XD
and thats why i wish SEGA would expand the skilltree a little bit by adding "equip (weapon type)" skill..
so you can equip your subclasses weapons, just like FF tactic..
or more easier, SEGA could just put a koffee CO to unlock subclasses weapons.. XD

Skyly HUmar
Sep 23, 2012, 01:48 PM
I think it's not people looking back to PSO with rose tinted glasses. I think it's people like you who's memory has faded and now just say what's easily going to support their arguments.

Some of us actually still play PSObb sometimes and still have a clear view on how that game plays, and no the game wasn't just regularly hard on hard(see the mode name actually made sense in the game), but the game actually started challenging on normal. Oh yeah it did

If you disagree, either you haven't played the game in a longtime, or everytime you have, the only thing you did was TTF in company with high lvl players.

Now we're only talking about 1 element of PSO1. Don't get me wrong, as a whole I like PSO2 alot better than pso1, but the issue im stating is a major one for me. See i'm being realistic instead of just saying everything to defend my position. PSO 1 is now full of flaws and hasn't aged well in those perspectives. I recognize that. But I also recognize how great, tense and thrilling the difficulty was in PSO1, allthough cheap at times. However that is the only praise i'll give it in comparison to PSO2.

I still play psobb on that one server whose name gets censored if we type it. The first time i played pso it was hard, the 2nd character i made... not so much when i gave him my main's mag, my 3rd, ehhh too easy. And once you hit lv 160, everything exept a few ep2 quests are just too easy.

Back on topic, hu/fi, fi/u, hu/te, and fi/te. The HU/FI will be the main, and a resta/poison techer as a sub.

jooozek
Sep 23, 2012, 02:19 PM
I'll be running FO (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/force.html?01FO!IOI24OI22SIxfbnbnIk)/TE (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/techer.html?01TE!IOI2GBIdqq4XqnHNIbf) and FI (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/fighter.html?01FI!IOI2ebJbGNco4SIbf)/HU (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IOI2IbInqnqxcAGDqnIh) like a boss.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 02:28 PM
HU/FO in my case, although I'll be levelling TE and FI to make other combinations and see how they go.

If they release more -decent- free-for-all rods and talis I guess I'll stay HU/FO because magic knight is the coolest class ev4r. Period.

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 02:46 PM
..... -.-

My god, can we just stay on topic, dammit?

Going Ranger/Techer, because Guntecher.

What's everyone else going?

Fighter/techer, fighter/force, fighter/gunner, fighter/hunter, fighter/whateversoundsfunfortheday

We can be cast techer sub buddeez

Geistritter
Sep 23, 2012, 02:55 PM
I'm bitter that I can't replicate Fighgunner through... well, Fighter/Gunner, but when I think about it it would have been redundant anyway, because Twin Machinguns don't work like guns.

That said, Gunner/Ranger seems like it'll be broken, because you'll be able to trade Gunner's god awful Chain Trigger for Weak Shot and weak point damage bonuses. I'll probably be abusing that one quite a bit.

Fighter/Hunter will probably also get some mileage, but I'll have to buy a new Hunter skill tree with just things that benefit Fighter in it if I go with that. Come to think of it, though, all I'll really be able to get out of it is both JA Bonuses (so, 120% Just Attack bonus), and Fury Stance, which I probably can't even use with Fighter's Stances. It might make more sense to just sub Gunner there regardless (115% damage increase in melee range, PP Restoration increase) and save myself the cash.

And of course, anything with Force or Techer will probably work, although Hunter and Fighter are probably best served with Techer for its S-Atk and S-Def advantages... and possibly also its passive buff supplements, so maybe Techer is the best subclass regardless for those who want to have a little spell utility on the side. Some potential for creative use of those passive bonuses to suit the user's support tastes, too.

Galax
Sep 23, 2012, 05:53 PM
Gunner/Force, more than likely.

*points to title*

Maronji
Sep 23, 2012, 08:15 PM
Hey, look at this excerpt from a new Bumped post: (http://bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-qa-corner/)

They will even add more weapons that can be used by all classes just in time for the subclass update.
Well that eases my concerns--somewhat.

Also, I'm particularly interested in this little blurb:

They have already started concepts on new weapon categories and classes.
This ought to be an interesting thing to speculate on.

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 08:41 PM
More new weapons? Niiiice. I'm really hoping for a defensive gun class with a shotgun roughly comparable to the hunter's sword: heavy hitting and great with defensive builds.

Honestly that could just be tacked on top of gunner's weapons, and techer needs stuff going for it too.

NoiseHERO
Sep 23, 2012, 08:45 PM
battle shields, bows, slicers... twin sabers..... shotguns......................

/can't think of anything else important

I'll drop everything if they make a melee oriented bow. D:




Otherwise, about the all class weapons. HAH! /does annoying "I told you so" dance

EvilMag
Sep 23, 2012, 08:46 PM
I don't think Twin Claws will come back. :(

NoiseHERO
Sep 23, 2012, 08:48 PM
Augh I forgot claws...

single claw was on my list of favorite weapons... But ehn, yeah no-nevermind there's still a lot they can do. >_>

I just hope they don't make a bunch of new classes JUST for them.

ShadowDragon28
Sep 23, 2012, 08:53 PM
Twin Claws. I want twin claws. Wired Lances are cool, and yes I know some of them are claw-ish, but it's not the same as just straight up close combat claw ripping and slicing straight up old school Phantasy Star style like Nei and Rika(Fahl) twin claw melee fighting

Griffin
Sep 23, 2012, 08:55 PM
Bows are fucking cool.

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 08:56 PM
Augh I forgot claws...

single claw was on my list of favorite weapons... But ehn, yeah no-nevermind there's still a lot they can do. >_>

I just hope they don't make a bunch of new classes JUST for them.

Agreed. I'm not sure I can handle 20-some boss fights I don't like or want to do just to access new content.

And slicers? Slicers better be allclass gunsaber-type weapons...

Zorafim
Sep 23, 2012, 09:04 PM
I can see them going overboard with the number of classes. So far, half the concept of the classes is the weapons they use, and the other half is the abilities. What can you tell me Gunner does, for instances, besides being the class that uses twin mechs? I can see them making classes just to have something for us to do between real content updates.

And you know, I'll probably buy it and not complain.

pikachief
Sep 23, 2012, 09:11 PM
What can you tell me Gunner does, for instances, besides being the class that uses twin mechs?

THIS bugs me. There's no thought put into how classes will work together in the future. And If I want any new weapons in the future I will probably be forced to play that new class to use the new weapons.

At least I hope not. I want more variety than 3-4 weapons in my class and I don't want to have to to play a new class every time I want to use new weapons.

Kondibon
Sep 23, 2012, 09:13 PM
I'm just gonna come out and say it. I think they meant new specific weapons usable by all classes so we don't have to swing a fish around to use a sword as our sublcass, not new weapon types.

I'm all for new types of weapons (slicers, bows, and shields plox) but it would seem odd to me for them to suddenly drop more weapons in so soon out of nowhere. there weren't any new weapon types in the trailer and they said they plan on doing this before or when the patch comes.

While I'm thinking about it, I think a bow's mechanic would be charging normal attacks and maybe having all it's PAs be chargeable. Just throwing that out there.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:21 PM
Hey, look at this excerpt from a new Bumped post: (http://bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-qa-corner/)


They will even add more weapons that can be used by all classes just in time for the subclass update.

Well that eases my concerns--somewhat.

And as I promised, I gotta say it: PHEW. I'm glad I was mistaken and they actually though of this. Now my concern is minimal -that these weapons are more "serious" and "regular" so they are good for different aesthetic tastes, and they don't plan to make a somewhat regular series of seafood melee weapons, continuing the tuna theme. <_<

But certainly this lifted a great weight off my concerns about the future of the game and particulary myself having fun with it.

Now I'm happy. Specially the part about adding them just in time: We will see them soon. I won't stop being a bit reluctant to open completely my hopes to this, but blame on SEGA for that. <_<


Also, I'm particularly interested in this little blurb:


They have already started concepts on new weapon categories and classes.

This ought to be an interesting thing to speculate on.

About new classes I'm kinda meh. But about new weapons, I REALLY hope they bring back Laser Cannons. I would also like slicers and whips, I really hope they're back someday. I wish we'd get shields and one-handed swords to go more chivalry-style, but I'd be happy enough with shields a la PSZ style, too.


I'm just gonna come out and say it. I think they meant new specific weapons usable by all classes so we don't have to swing a fish around to use a sword as our sublcass, not new weapon types.

I'm all for new types of weapons (slicers, bows, and shields plox) but it would seem odd to me for them to suddenly drop more weapons in so soon out of nowhere. there weren't any new weapon types in the trailer and they said they plan on doing this before or when the patch comes.

While I'm thinking about it, I think a bow's mechanic would be charging normal attacks and maybe having all it's PAs be chargeable. Just throwing that out there.

They seem to address them specifically to bridge the gap created by subclasses lack of weapons... besides, as you said they're talking about bringing them before, or at the same time, than subclasses. They took 3 months to add 3 new classes and 5 weapons, and another month to bring the subclass system together. It would be really odd that they'd ninja-add new classes and weapons even before subclasses. =/

But they were talking about more concepts, and I don't think they're going to leave the game with only 13 weapon types considering that all the predecessors had over 20 even from release. <_<

Galax
Sep 23, 2012, 09:33 PM
I can see them going overboard with the number of classes. So far, half the concept of the classes is the weapons they use, and the other half is the abilities. What can you tell me Gunner does, for instances, besides being the class that uses twin mechs? I can see them making classes just to have something for us to do between real content updates.

And you know, I'll probably buy it and not complain.

Twin Mechguns let me shift dodge through a Vol Dragon's fireball-from-the-air attack, taking zero damage while all three of my NPCs lay dead on the ground. If you can't get under him fast enough, you can just shift shift shift and chances are you'll live. While you spam shift, you're shooting, and no it's not limited to Vol Dragon - That's just an excellent example of the kind of invincibility rate you can expect.

It's also an interesting class in that it really is just MELEE, but with BULLETS. For those of you who did Shotguns and Crossbows on PSU, you know what I'm talking about - you very rarely backed up and spread out your damage, you got in your foes face and made it stack. I saw maybe THREE players that used the spreadshot as a SPREAD attack in about five years of PSU online. Gunner operates in the same fashion - You get in the face of your foes, kick them, shoulder ram them, spinkick, shoot them into the air, and then you dodge their attacks, invincible for almost the entirety of the dodge.

If that's not enough for you, that's fine - But it's more than enough for me to find it a fun and interesting class.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 09:43 PM
Twin Mechguns let me shift dodge through a Vol Dragon's fireball-from-the-air attack, taking zero damage while all three of my NPCs lay dead on the ground. If you can't get under him fast enough, you can just shift shift shift and chances are you'll live. While you spam shift, you're shooting, and no it's not limited to Vol Dragon - That's just an excellent example of the kind of invincibility rate you can expect.

It's also an interesting class in that it really is just MELEE, but with BULLETS. For those of you who did Shotguns and Crossbows on PSU, you know what I'm talking about - you very rarely backed up and spread out your damage, you got in your foes face and made it stack. I saw maybe THREE players that used the spreadshot as a SPREAD attack in about five years of PSU online. Gunner operates in the same fashion - You get in the face of your foes, kick them, shoulder ram them, spinkick, shoot them into the air, and then you dodge their attacks, invincible for almost the entirety of the dodge.

If that's not enough for you, that's fine - But it's more than enough for me to find it a fun and interesting class.

I think the problem is that we're used to have more weapon options than this game offers for each class. All you described is performed with a single weapon, and many people here, me included, come from PSU, where each class had access to 10+ weapons (save Master classes), and many of us also come from PSO where weapon restrictions were much more blurred and you didn't even need a 6-slots weapon pallette, you could cycle through all the weapons in your inventory freely.

In my opinion, instead of adding a dozen classes with only 2~3 useable weapons each (plus gunslash), it would be nicer that they first expanded the weapon aviability for the existing classes so you have more options to toy with without needing to switch classes constantly for that. Imagine they add laser cannons and crossbows to the game, and instead of giving them to Ranger and/or gunner they create two new classesw for them. It would be too messy, I think.

I see the need of having the three current "extra" classes, because that allows for subclasses to be very dynamic. But adding more there would make it hellishly complicated. We have already 30 combinations to work with, we might not need 20 more. <_<

Kondibon
Sep 23, 2012, 09:53 PM
But they were talking about more concepts, and I don't think they're going to leave the game with only 13 weapon types considering that all the predecessors had over 20 even from release. <_<

Yeah, I do want them to add more weapon types. Especially kinds that can legitimately be used by any class like the gunslashes.

Also, I know someone brought this up before but there are icons for more weapons that are recolors of existing rares, it could be that those are the all-class weapons, but they could also just be recolors like Lambda Kuscha Nebula.

NoiseHERO
Sep 23, 2012, 10:02 PM
Hmm...

I guess the customization does feel a little more special than PSP2's if...

Instead of being 4 vague classes that can do everything.

You have a giant pool of classes and you merge a combination of the two...

But it's starting to get painful having to go back to normal forest, 2 or 6 times for every character. So I guess swapping class combinations really is something you have to earn, and you would be better off focusing on fewer things to stay at the top of your game.(unless you have a lot of free time, AC and meseta. )

But I still don't exactly feel motivated to cap fighter after 30, then level gunner to an efficient level. THEN level hunter on my force character, and unlock and level techer on him as well. @_@

and they expect you to work on that shit for sure, when they're talking about nerfing heavy EXP quests (like clessidia's 37k quest.) just so experienced players would play with lower level players. Which does make a lot of sense, because they game's population and community get's into a really bad funk with a lot of games, when there's a huge gap between new and old players. Or you have beaters (experienced players that know all the tricks... SAO joke again) speed leveling past new players. In a point of the game where there isn't a lot of new players to begin with. So they just get lonely and quit, even when they join teams when other member occasionally help their patience doesn't always last to the point of reaching the content front line.


@ kondi-chan: Something tells me that re-color rares COULD be what you say... Or they could also be rares from the Vhard version of a boss/enemy.(Boss drops X specific rare, Vhard version of said boss drops cooler re-colored version.)

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 10:08 PM
In this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Akbdpi65EON1dGRTd2hqNXBQMW1Lak9SOFJKM1Utb UE&gid=33) page you can see all the rods from the game, including datamined pics of different colored existing ones, and if you navigate through the site you'll find similar icons for pretty much all weapon cattegories.

Wistfully thinking, we could speculate that they might be "free for all" versions of existing weapons, but they could also be simply rank 10* and higher rarity weapons, and they simply share in shape with current weapons because they conform a series in the same way the lower ranks do. Or they could simply be recolors.

I honestly hope that they add more regular weapons aviable for all classes. I would be a bit dissapointed if all the new free-for-all weapons were the same as they are now, stand-alone rare and/or mock weapons. I wouldn't like to have to use a microphone or a tuna to make my subclass useful. :C

Kondibon
Sep 23, 2012, 10:09 PM
and they expect you to work on that shit for sure, when they're talking about nerfing heavy EXP quests (like clessidia's 37k quest.) just so experienced players would play with lower level players. Which does make a lot of sense, because they game's population and community get's into a really bad funk with a lot of games, when there's a huge gap between new and old players. Or you have beaters (experienced players that know all the tricks... SAO joke again) speed leveling past new players. In a point of the game where there isn't a lot of new players to begin with. So they just get lonely and quit, even when they join teams when other member occasionally help their patience doesn't always last to the point of reaching the content front line.
I would agree with this if it weren't for the fact that I've been playing Guild Wars 2 and that game showed me just how easy it is to get players to go back to and stay in low level areas just by merit of giving them a lot to do there and scaling them to the content.

Rather than finding ways to force us to go back to old content I think they should make it appealing and give use content that makes us WANT to go back.

NoiseHERO
Sep 23, 2012, 10:14 PM
I would agree with this if it weren't for the fact that I've been playing Guild Wars 2 and that game showed me just how easy it is to get players to go back to and stay in low level areas just by merit of giving them a lot to do there and scaling them to the content.

Rather than finding ways to force us to go back to old content I think they should make it appealing and give use content that makes us WANT to go back.

Yeah like I said, I definitely hate seeing dagan forest, then caves for a decade of levels, every time I wanna pick up a new class. @_@

Just saying I can see why they'd wanna slow us down, though I don't exactly agree with the fun that it sacrifices. >_>;;

Which is why it'll probably be months before I work on my force guy some more. I'd much rather they keep making things more fun for all level ranges, like you say. Especially if they expect us to start from scratch multiple times.

Crystal_Shard
Sep 23, 2012, 10:16 PM
Having more "All-Class" weapons can only be a boon, though I can easily envision those being snapped up by the usual MyShop monopolies and bumped up in price greatly. But either way, this was both expected and a partial relief.

I suppose we can now speculate to kingdom come why they didn't just have a Type Extend system in place to sidestep all of these concerns in the first place.

@Rock Eastwood: Things might get a bit more interesting when leveling up extra classes from the ground up once October comes around, with the extra skills and stats boosts from a previously capped class. Personally though, I'm still going to stick to farming higher level daily COs from Hans and Laville.

Ezodagrom
Sep 23, 2012, 10:16 PM
I think the problem is that we're used to have more weapon options than this game offers for each class. All you described is performed with a single weapon, and many people here, me included, come from PSU, where each class had access to 10+ weapons (save Master classes), and many of us also come from PSO where weapon restrictions were much more blurred and you didn't even need a 6-slots weapon pallette, you could cycle through all the weapons in your inventory freely.

In my opinion, instead of adding a dozen classes with only 2~3 useable weapons each (plus gunslash), it would be nicer that they first expanded the weapon aviability for the existing classes so you have more options to toy with without needing to switch classes constantly for that. Imagine they add laser cannons and crossbows to the game, and instead of giving them to Ranger and/or gunner they create two new classesw for them. It would be too messy, I think.

I see the need of having the three current "extra" classes, because that allows for subclasses to be very dynamic. But adding more there would make it hellishly complicated. We have already 30 combinations to work with, we might not need 20 more. <_<
The problem with adding new weapon types to current classes is the skill trees, for example, if they suddenly added new weapon types to an existing class along with new skills in the skill tree for those weapon types, someone who is at max level wouldn't be able to put any points towards the new weapons skills.

NoiseHERO
Sep 23, 2012, 10:22 PM
@Rock Eastwood: Things might get a bit more interesting when leveling up extra classes from the ground up once October comes around, with the extra skills and stats boosts from a previously capped class. Personally though, I'm still going to stick to farming higher level daily COs from Hans and Laville.

If you can use a higher level class as a sub class...

those skills + the 20% stat boost WOULD be a lot... @_@

My god, monsters would die in nano-seconds.

Kondibon
Sep 23, 2012, 10:23 PM
Yeah like I said, I definitely hate seeing dagan forest, then caves for a decade of levels, every time I wanna pick up a new class. @_@

Just saying I can see why they'd wanna slow us down, though I don't exactly agree with the fun that it sacrifices. >_>;;

Which is why it'll probably be months before I work on my force guy some more. I'd much rather they keep making things more fun for all level ranges, like you say. Especially if they expect us to start from scratch multiple times.Yeah. I won't be getting gunner simply because I don't want to level ranger to 30 then do all those quests again to unlock it.

Which happens to be another point of contention for me. The core play styles of the new classes are so different from the classes you have to play to unlock them that It feels forced. It rubs me the wrong way that people might have to play a class they don't like for 31 levels to get a class they might like. Or that someone might have to do that bothersome quest to unlock a class that plays so differently from what they're used to that they don't care for it. I noticed that about a few people going from ranger to gunner or force to techer.

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 10:26 PM
The problem with adding new weapon types to current classes is the skill trees, for example, if they suddenly added new weapon types to an existing class along with new skills in the skill tree for those weapon types, someone who is at max level wouldn't be able to put any points towards the new weapons skills.

But by adding new classes they don't really solve that problem, considering that in many cases we are going to need a skill reset anyways to accomodate our class and subclass together. I'm sure there are many people out there who have Step Attack on both Fighter and Hunter and they plan going FI/HU or HU/FI.

I'd rather have to spend some lousy 5€ on a new skilltree every 3 months than having to level up 4 melee classes just to be able to use my favorite weapons once in a while. Is not that much of a cost, but that's my personal opinion, of course.

Since SEGA obviously wouldn't give free resets once in a year like in a dozen other MMOs I've tried where they did major changes to main classes. It seems that they don't earn enough millions from the AC scratch. Which would be the most intelligent and mature option here, and it didn't cause any other gaming companies to go bankrupt yet, as far as I know.

Kondibon
Sep 23, 2012, 10:35 PM
The problem with adding new weapon types to current classes is the skill trees, for example, if they suddenly added new weapon types to an existing class along with new skills in the skill tree for those weapon types, someone who is at max level wouldn't be able to put any points towards the new weapons skills.That's a moot point. Any self respecting game company that makes a big change to the mechanics of a skill tree or what have you gives players the chance to fix it for free.

Who's to say the new weapons will need to have specific skills in the first place? Staffs don't, gunslashes don't. I know those are only two weapons but still, adding new weapons doesn't mean they have to go all out and give them their own skills on the skill tree. Even then it could be something as simple as a 1 slot gear placed in an existing branch.

gigawuts
Sep 23, 2012, 10:43 PM
Caduceus! Hooray! Bring me grants bonuses!

Spellbinder
Sep 23, 2012, 10:46 PM
Caduceus! Hooray! Bring me grants bonuses!

Where?! O_O

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 10:51 PM
The link I posted in the previous page shows that they have an icon that looks like a Caduceus.

Vashyron
Sep 23, 2012, 10:53 PM
*cough stop looking at dinky icons* (http://www.multiupload.co.uk/ESL3E4874Y)

Darki
Sep 23, 2012, 11:15 PM
Uhhh... I see too many colors there. =/ I'd guess they're adding some weapon color swap feature and they're not "free for all" versions of current weapons (and I'd guess some of them would be the missing 6* weapons judging their shapes).

I still hope thye add stuff that are not tunas or mic stands for subclasses...

EDIT: Do I see a Brionac there? <_<

Reyva
Sep 23, 2012, 11:16 PM
Eh I feel the following

1) Don't care
2) Not excited
3) A little worried

Eh, its cool and all that this is being added considering it feels a lot like what FFXI and the other Square-Enix games did, but........

(Basing the below off assumptions for now since its not even released yet)

1. I find the game already too easy anyways. This just makes it worse and not something I wanted if we retain skills like weak bullet and so on along with stat bonuses.

In other words, balance needs to be made somewhere. I can be wrong however and say well, we don't know what the future difficulty modes and areas will bring so maybe there will be a gigantic leap in difficulty so people like me stop saying the game is too easy and I can solo it while watching TV.


2. Like others, just don't feel all that thrilled leveling these new classes and so on. In FFXI (the old FFXI where you had to party all the time and it wasn't easy to level up), it was worth it to me to level those jobs because it was worth it nor was it overpowering (at that time). You also only had to level it to what? 37 anyways since it was 75/37 anyways. So its not like it took forever unless you just partied with randoms which usually equaled a 50/50 chance of it being a good party.

While leveling up those potential subjobs, I may of got interested in that job anyways and level it to 75.

Anyways, point is just don't feel all that thrilled even though its not that hard to powerlevel a new class.

3. Weapon types? Since I'm disappointed in knuckles (I expected flashier moves along with using your damn feet/legs), they should add in gaiters. Either that or give me some PAs to use with knuckles that also involve using your legs/feet. Some kicks and punches would be sweet. Then again, the only game that ever had gaiters as a exclusive weapon was Sword of the New World and their martial arts characters had some pretty flashy skills. Then again, I could name off other games.

Anyways, not all too excited. Don't care, nice addition, but its not going to motivate me to play like crazy like I used to. I'll stick with Rusty hearts for now as my main game for action oriented combat.

NoiseHERO
Sep 23, 2012, 11:28 PM
*cough stop looking at dinky icons* (http://www.multiupload.co.uk/ESL3E4874Y)

"file doesn't exist"

Where do you guys FIND these fishy outlandish upload sites? D:

Is simple mediafire inefficient or something? @_@

Ah well...

Ezodagrom
Sep 23, 2012, 11:30 PM
But by adding new classes they don't really solve that problem, considering that in many cases we are going to need a skill reset anyways to accomodate our class and subclass together. I'm sure there are many people out there who have Step Attack on both Fighter and Hunter and they plan going FI/HU or HU/FI.

I'd rather have to spend some lousy 5€ on a new skilltree every 3 months than having to level up 4 melee classes just to be able to use my favorite weapons once in a while. Is not that much of a cost, but that's my personal opinion, of course.

Since SEGA obviously wouldn't give free resets once in a year like in a dozen other MMOs I've tried where they did major changes to main classes. It seems that they don't earn enough millions from the AC scratch. Which would be the most intelligent and mature option here, and it didn't cause any other gaming companies to go bankrupt yet, as far as I know.
I guess another possibility could be some sort of advanced classes, for example, the current classes could be locked to a certain max level, and to continue leveling up the players would need to use the advanced version of the class, which would give access to both basic class skill tree and advanced class skill tree (which could give access to new weapon types and their respective skill tree skills).
Either this or some sort of expansion to the current skill trees, I guess?

gigawuts
Sep 24, 2012, 12:51 AM
Being forced to play another class to progress on your main class? Please no.

Please, please no.

Ezodagrom
Sep 24, 2012, 01:07 AM
Being forced to play another class to progress on your main class? Please no.

Please, please no.
If that's in reply to my post, that's not what I meant.
Here's an example of what I meant:
A player reaches lvl 100 hunter, after that, hunter can't get any higher and the player must switch to advanced hunter (continuing at lvl 100), which is pretty much the same class, with the same skill tree, but it also gets new weapon types and a 2nd skill tree for those weapons. This is what I had in mind. ^^;

With SEGA wanting us to replay the same content and starting from lvl 1 over and over, I don't think something like this would happen to introduce new weapons though, I bet new weapon types are going to keep being introduced only with completely new classes. :|

Now to hope they don't pull something like a new melee class needing a certain level (like lvl 30) and client orders from the fighter class, which needs lvl 30 and client orders from hunter itself. ._.

Anon_Fire
Sep 24, 2012, 01:32 AM
If that's in reply to my post, that's not what I meant.
Here's an example of what I meant:
A player reaches lvl 100 hunter, after that, hunter can't get any higher and the player must switch to advanced hunter (continuing at lvl 100), which is pretty much the same class, with the same skill tree, but it also gets new weapon types and a 2nd skill tree for those weapons. This is what I had in mind. ^^;

With SEGA wanting us to replay the same content and starting from lvl 1 over and over, I don't think something like this would happen to introduce new weapons though, I bet new weapon types are going to keep being introduced only with completely new classes. :|

Now to hope they don't pull something like a new melee class needing a certain level (like lvl 30) and client orders from the fighter class, which needs lvl 30 and client orders from hunter itself. ._.

Or maybe they should have had the subclass level capped to half of the main class level.

Gama
Sep 24, 2012, 03:26 AM
after seeing the weapon images. im afraid to ask the folowing...

will the "universal weapons" be like a kubara?

yunamon
Sep 24, 2012, 03:40 AM
http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2012/09/120921a.html

I thought your hybrid will be:
• Sub class's parameters + 20% main class's parameters
• Use main class's weapons
• Cannot use sub class's weapons
• Can use sub class's PA/Tech/Skills (But need all-classes weapons like Scythe/Bouquet Rifle)

Did I read something wrong there?

Natsuma
Sep 24, 2012, 04:01 AM
Any release date revealed?