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Xenobia
Oct 6, 2012, 04:21 PM
To be clear on that topic,
1. No trash talk, no nonsense (the topic is about PSO2 graphics, nothing else)
2. Criticism allowed, but in a constructive approach (stuff "XY" worse, could be done better by "ZW").
3. Better no contribution when it isnt clear what to say, better to let the topic die... no problem. Comedy content is not required. Better to have 1 mindful post than 100 comedy content.
4. Pictures of PSO2 allowed, pictures from other games only in the matter of 1:1 comparisons. PSO2 need to be included on the same picture, (splittscreen), cant be posted by itself.
5. People should use the best quality possible posting a picture, this topic is about possibility not about raw experience or sightseeing.

Generaly topic can safely be used with not so much comments or views, but probably when someone found something graphically special (good or bad) it can be posted. So in general its the "quality or lack on quality picture topic" to some extend. But always a shot at max quality possible!

Graphics parameters which are of importance:
Tech Count: Easyest to measure, a tech parameter is usualy a polygon, texture, lightning and more.
Art Count: Art can be everything, but in the graphical aspect it means its made with deepness and got good expression.
Vivid count: Means that something is lively, it will look physically or naturally correct, it got the sense of "being truthful and realistic", it doesnt look "artificial".


Common question:
Why to even talk about PSO2 graphics or graphics at all?
Answer:

Some people are getting a Nvidia GPU because of some forced and barely viewable "improved" ambient occlusion, a weak form of shading. Taking into account lower performance, double shaders (can be unnatural), and artifacting. So, indeed some people take quality serious, any form of quality, no matter at what spot.

Obviously, PSO2 fanbase is usualy not biased toward graphics but toward the whole fanservice itself, so it can be hard on judgement because its simply something they exclude on arrival. Fanservice mentality means there is "no need" for certain spots, "no need" for update, "no need" for a non watered down US version and what else. Just accepting everything (as long as it does fit the required shape) because.... well why?

Example: DBonline = 100% fanservice. PSO2 is... some fanservice but its a game which have to stand up against other games and in its class "F2P" its certainly strong doing so.

But what am i? Im a huge RPG gamer and i do consider me as a lover of PSO as a whole. PSO got something no nother game got, a unique touch, even a unique history. But more of all, im a perfectionist. Someone being perfectionistic in nature is not ignoring certain spots just because "hey its PSO it doesnt need to be good at anything". Wrong... PSO have to keep pace with any other game, it have to outrival them, its at competiton and not only made for fans. In that case, yes, the question of its technical aspects is a valid question.


So why do i care about graphics on a F2P game?

My perfectionistic nature is unlimited, and my interests are without bounds. However, most people i meet in my life do have only a very few interest and the others are almost non existent for them. Prehaps they got more interest but lack of possibility in order to gain that interest. That kind of mental approach is good for themself but bad for those with different mentality. So its not any better than when i would say "i want more graphics", because i would cause the same for those who want lesser. But the point is, whats the possibility? Thats a question even a F2P game is facing to some extent. But more of all, its a valid question, there is nothing wrong bringing up such content, even on a game which is made to be graphically meager for the sake of a endless compatibility with even the weakest hardware on the market and of course the development cost is lower.

Besides: My "GFX" is nothing special, its a 7870 which can be gotten for 260$ on Newegg. Almost mainstream price but OCd... so, having good graphics doesnt necessarely need to be a unachievable deluxe matter.


For a game of its class... a FREE TO PLAY, PSO2 is certainly very strong at graphics and stuff, so comparing it with other games of same class, its indeed fine. But that was the whole point of SEGA to turn it into that direction. Because in term it would be another P2P such as PSU or PSO1 it surely will not be able to keep pace with the time anymore, thats a fact.


Quotes from previous topic (i will ask mod to delete because its just 90% OT inside that topic, as the one who brought it up i should be allowed to make that decision, but trying to take over every non OT content posted so far).



I actually partially agree in that the environment art could stand to see some improvement. When it comes to animations, character modeling, and lighting, on the other hand, I could not disagree more.

Cases in point:
[spoiler-box]https://xptjdq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1mO-lnrVCmOXOAtVYvOyRe35GnB-ESDJGIW9LHhffCJqYV-TPXAVOK9vv13sqFcH4e-yVn0vmGK6VMRao0KX7WzIAewj0k-8QawS_tEbYM4yE3k4gKdx5WCA/pso20120917_151548_017.png?psid=1
https://xptjdq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1mK2R5eSULRlfRQP-9SvaOZf3eSlYwj7myx4PDohDvJzSNcGVr8IqnAiuHK8ESZSspM Gr0-Loial6ZxH29RRGjLyIY1Us3jf40_ZDrensJsowFzfAChA9buA/pso20120727_194455_025.png?psid=1
https://xptjdq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1mviO4zE8jQsRJvaXWEceo_LzGeZs-NO5w4Krv9pseVRtPLTVtg0OMDSYMS45lU3L09gcFArbVK8ePLn QoYP1sedsybR1l4fOHXbGBcgqtyx_9PQZ8ZglG4A/pso20120722_151100_056.png?psid=1[/spoiler-box]


Well, at animation/modeling japanese games are always good, i know few who really lack it, but i agree that PSO2 is not having lack with those stats (not to surprising).

West games generally are weaker at those spots. I dunno why but i guess US devs usualy are more focused on the environment.


Lightning:
The Ligthning is usualy focused on single spots, instead of taking it over to a wide area, especially environment (HDR would help it). You see huge explosion and stuff but it barely does affect the surrounding. Of course, the monsters may glow like crazy and stuff but nowadays thats not truly something special and easely implemented.

Highest issue is that the whole appearance of the game is way to clean, to artificial, so straight lined, to less vivid. The problem with japanese mind is that they want maximum level of cleanage and it looks way to clean, so clean that it does lose its "inner" purity, the purity of truth (to good to be true). Everything is simply perfect... but "inner purity" is in need of some imperfection, something which is perfectly imperfect. So not always to look out for the perfect move but prehaps... looking for a dynamic approach, not a always perfect move, perfect surface... perfectly flat texture and even the edges at the polygons are perfectly disgusting.


Clothes:
Another weak spot at characters, the clothes are to flat and not crinkly. I mean, its a huge focus to sell clothes and stuff but they arnt actually made with the maximum amount of love it seems.

Example of crinkly clothes (no they are different on both sides... now we have a perfect imperfection) Even the axis of the char isnt perfect but still a clean appearance..

(splittscreen picture coming soon)



More Quotes coming soon... (taking over).

blace
Oct 6, 2012, 04:40 PM
To be fair, the game is made with older PC's in mind hence the graphical slider and shaders settings.

gigawuts
Oct 6, 2012, 04:45 PM
Sheesh PSO2 graphics is really cheap in general. Looks like a game 10 year of age. Luckily i found many better examples, so its kinda unbalanced.

you misspelled pso1, which is an actual game 10 year of age

gravityvx
Oct 6, 2012, 04:50 PM
[SPOILER-BOX][/SPOILER-BOX]
Here, a game 7 year of age... currently on my PC. ;)

I'm sorry but Oblivion looks nowhere near as good pso2, the only thing it could possibly do to even come close is have higher res textures from mods and even then you're pushing it. I don't even wanna mention how terrible the character models in that game are. That is a terrible comparison.

NoiseHERO
Oct 6, 2012, 05:02 PM
What you call that clay with dirty textures smudged all over it that has high contrast lighting on it better graphics than PSO2?

Well, either way it all looks like terrible PS2 graphics with some extra shine to me. I say it's not the actual graphics, but using what you HAVE that makes something worth looking at. (an 8-bit game can look a trillion times more artistic than a high res modern game.) And in my opinion... that screen shot looks like vomit. I'd rather look at a PSU character's stretched open armpit with MS paint doodled pubes on it.

...

But yeah that's off-topic... Not that anyone is playing this game properly (Other than the people that caught me at least, because I don't afk in block 20 like 80 hours a week.)

NoiseHERO
Oct 6, 2012, 05:12 PM
Excuse me but the stuff worth looking at is the stuff you call "characters" and shiny clothes?!

But for me, textures are equally important, the lightning, the tree and the rappy too. I do not only watch the butt of my character and some male may watch the breasts 50% of the time. ;)

PS2? :D There isnt a single comparable game.



like I said, they both look terrible to me. How good does a videogame have to look? These elder scrolls games look like some random dudes boring backyard. You may as well go larping in the park if you play that game just for looks. I mean I guess skyrim has this dragon slaying conan the barbarian vibe going on, and that's pretty cool, I dunno.

But graphic wise neither that series or PSO2 is really worth talking about. unless you're one of those "I spend 2000 dollars on my PC and I only play portal and skyrim on it" dudes and even then I don't see anything special.

At least with phantasy star I can bring my rainbow haired hooker space elf friends on an anime fantasy adventure filled with light sabers and wannabe chibi chocobos chicked penguin thingies and that's all that's really important. Two different games, regardless of graphics in my own tastes the other will look like shit to me even if it looked like real life.

If you're gonna derail a thread in a forum for a PS game to randomly rant about it to prove some point! I'll also sit here and derail a thread to defend this game in the thought that I'm thinking your game looks like cat poopy no matter what.





Because I'm Rock Eastwood. and I'm bored.

NoiseHERO
Oct 6, 2012, 05:20 PM
Thats fanservice, not a scientificial approach. Anyway, keep continuing with those "i got you".

it is sci-fi, learn to fiction, but I didn't say it was or wasn't fan service, and you could tell how seriously I took it cause I said "rainbow space hooker elf" yet at the end of the day, all of these things are hilarious and fun and that's why I enjoy them.

Notice the irony in everything I'm saying being irrelevant and off-topic to counter whatever you were originally talking about that was irrelevant and off-topic.

I hope you learned your lesson!

Enforcer MKV
Oct 6, 2012, 05:30 PM
it is sci-fi, learn to fiction, but I didn't say it was or wasn't fan service, and you could tell how seriously I took it cause I said "rainbow space hooker elf" yet at the end of the day, all of these things are hilarious and fun and that's why I enjoy them.

Notice the irony in everything I'm saying being irrelevant and off-topic to counter whatever you were originally talking about that was irrelevant and off-topic.

I hope you learned your lesson!

Wouldn't it just be easier to ignore him rather than -


Because I'm Rock Eastwood. and I'm bored.

....I guess this invalidates my argument. :s

[Ayumi]
Oct 6, 2012, 05:31 PM
I'm sorry but Oblivion looks nowhere near as good pso2, the only thing it could possibly do to even come close is have higher res textures from mods and even then you're pushing it. I don't even wanna mention how terrible the character models in that game are. That is a terrible comparison.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Ayumi]
Oct 6, 2012, 06:04 PM
I'm sorry but Oblivion looks nowhere near as good pso2, the only thing it could possibly do to even come close is have higher res textures from mods and even then you're pushing it. I don't even wanna mention how terrible the character models in that game are. That is a terrible comparison.


It was actually just a short example. Everything in Oblivion can be modded, including models. In PSO2 nothing can be modded without running into violation from term of use (and risk of ban).

In term someone looking for war, i guess PSO2 would have short pace standing against anything im able to offer. But its just to much OT, really. Just made a short example of a old game i had in mind it looks better (because the stuff some people posted looked so terrible).

Well other than the terms of service and the risk of ban, I've seen other online games having their things modded on the player side and never heard of people getting banned by it, only thing you would have to worry about is maybe showing it off and maybe the company finds out and ban you of course.

While I'm not a fan of The Elder Scrolls games, one image I recall while playing Oblivion many years ago were the facial movments when you talked to someone.... some of those expressions still haunt me... don't recall anything haunting me from PSO2 as of yet.

Ezodagrom
Oct 6, 2012, 06:49 PM
@Xenobia: PSO2 doesn't look as good graphically when compared to recent games, so what? Why should anyone care about this? It's an online RPG made to run well in a wide range of machines, this is not supposed to be a graphics benchmark. A game doesn't need super high quality graphics to look good, I prefer a game that has better use of art than a game with superior graphics technically.
Also, online RPGs are usually behind other games when it comes to graphics.

Sorry for continuing the off topic, won't post anything more about this in this topic, just had to say this. :|

Zyrusticae
Oct 6, 2012, 07:49 PM
I actually partially agree in that the environment art could stand to see some improvement. When it comes to animations, character modeling, and lighting, on the other hand, I could not disagree more.

Cases in point:
[spoiler-box]https://xptjdq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1mO-lnrVCmOXOAtVYvOyRe35GnB-ESDJGIW9LHhffCJqYV-TPXAVOK9vv13sqFcH4e-yVn0vmGK6VMRao0KX7WzIAewj0k-8QawS_tEbYM4yE3k4gKdx5WCA/pso20120917_151548_017.png?psid=1
https://xptjdq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1mK2R5eSULRlfRQP-9SvaOZf3eSlYwj7myx4PDohDvJzSNcGVr8IqnAiuHK8ESZSspM Gr0-Loial6ZxH29RRGjLyIY1Us3jf40_ZDrensJsowFzfAChA9buA/pso20120727_194455_025.png?psid=1
https://xptjdq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1mviO4zE8jQsRJvaXWEceo_LzGeZs-NO5w4Krv9pseVRtPLTVtg0OMDSYMS45lU3L09gcFArbVK8ePLn QoYP1sedsybR1l4fOHXbGBcgqtyx_9PQZ8ZglG4A/pso20120722_151100_056.png?psid=1[/spoiler-box]

Chik'Tikka
Oct 6, 2012, 07:59 PM
an sample of PSO2 modded to have even more polygons!!! http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w363/ChikTikka/PSO2%20Miscellaneous/Maryseyes1.jpg (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ) +^_^+

at above ^ not everyone has a GPU powerful enough for forced AO+^_^+ i barely maintain 40-50 (20-30 if a lot's happening) fps at my current settings+^_^+

Ezodagrom
Oct 6, 2012, 08:00 PM
Ehrr? Dunno what to say, was trying to remove it all but didnt expect it to turn big at all... i just wanted to make a short pointer because simply something i had in mind.

I dont know why it should even turn out to be a serious discussion because fans are way to biased, but to make it serious it need to be unbiased. Pointer are usualy fun purpose, it seems difficult to have a deeper meaning.

Ah yes, "recent games"? Is the game i posted a recent game? I didnt compare with recent games because i think thats unfair. ;) Taking into account that the whole gaming industry is being hold back by consoles its actually hard to be "unfair". The industry didnt truly move on anymore for way to long (consoles being the bottleneck) and is in the act of being depleted.
I mentioned recent games mostly because of this:

For a game published in 2012 that graphic is surely very weak (even at maxed up sliders).

I never played any of the Elder Scrolls games, and I'm not really interested in trying them, but when compared to the picture you posted, to me PSO2 looks alot better.
No idea if it looks better technically (polygon count, texture resolution, whatever, don't really care), PSO2 looks alot better artistically, and for me and I'm sure many others this is alot more important than technical graphics details. For example, the environment in the picture you posted looks really bland.

NoiseHERO
Oct 6, 2012, 08:05 PM
an sample of PSO2 modded to have even more polygons!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PEkLNdMoc0 (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ) +^_^+

at above ^ not everyone has a GPU powerful enough for forced AO+^_^+ i barely maintain 40-50 (20-30 if a lot's happening) fps at my current settings+^_^+

AHHHHHH you got me!

You got me!

Crysteon
Oct 6, 2012, 09:09 PM
Some things never get old. Neither PSO2 graphics arguments nor Rick Astley....but honestly, the second is better to take rather than wrecking havoc from gfx hoars.

Lumpen Thingy
Oct 6, 2012, 09:14 PM
I love it when people try to give hate this game for the stupidest reasons

artbunker
Oct 6, 2012, 09:38 PM
Well I think the graphics are great . I dont care what their running on. When Im fighting that Rock Hildabear like monster, I dont care what the graphics are like when he is doing his falling attack on me .

I care about beating the guy and thats it. For those who ahvent played the game, be assured its still a very pertty game and you will enjoy it .

[Ayumi]
Oct 6, 2012, 10:20 PM
Some people are getting a Nvidia GPU because of some forced and barely viewable "improved" ambient occlusion, a weak form of shading. Taking into account lower performance, double shaders (can be unnatural), and artifacting. So, indeed some people take quality serious, any form of quality, no matter at what spot.

Obviously, PSO2 fanbase is usualy not biased toward graphics but toward the whole fanservice itself, so it can be hard on judgement because its simply something they exclude on arrival. Fanservice means there is "no need" for certain spots, "no need" for update, "no need" for a non watered down US version and what else. Just accepting everything (as long as it does fit the required shape) because.... well why?

But what am i? Im a huge RPG gamer and i do consider me as a lover of PSO as a whole. PSO got something no nother game got, a unique touch, even a unique history. So im not a hater, i refuse validating those kind of suspicions.

But more of all, im a perfectionist. Someone being perfectionistic in nature is not ignoring certain spots just because "hey its PSO it doesnt need to be good at anything". Wrong... PSO have to keep pace with any other game, it have to outrival them, its at competiton and not only made for fans. In that case, yes, the question of its technical aspects is a valid question.

I can easily compare.

When Closed Beta was over, I was waiting for the game to be released and needed a game to play while I wait.
The game I played was Dragon Ball Online.
Comparing the two, DBO looks horrible to PSO2.
Do I win? Do I?

Please tell me I win.
If not I will tell myself I won, because I think I won.

Gamemako
Oct 6, 2012, 11:40 PM
10 years ago was 2002, when Morrowind was new.

PSO2 looks a bit dated, no doubt. It looks like.. well, a 360 game, noting that the 360 is now 7 years old. It looks better than early 360 games did. I would say that it looks about 4 or 5 years old and is roughly comparable to the original Mass Effect -- these are more comparable due to the varied environments and sci-fi setting. Yeah, it's 2012, and we have The Witcher 2 to which to compare. Yeah, PSO2 looks dated, but not 10 years dated.

Shirokami
Oct 6, 2012, 11:48 PM
@Shirokami: Yes, very inspiring talk on that tech talks... im almost meditating. ;) Apart from that, do you even watch your language?

...cant be helped...

Wooo, I've got a personal fan without even looking for it!
Sorry if REAL WORLD is too harsh for you! It's not my fault if you've been pampered for this long :P
Glad I'm helping you to adapt to life, you've got a long way to go.
On topic, PSO2 Graphics might clearly not be the best, but they have a special something which attracts me for some reason, something nowadays games lacks...

Enforcer MKV
Oct 6, 2012, 11:53 PM
Do you really care about all the bullshit he keeps posting? :-?
Just let this thread die...


I don't see anyone insulting you or anyone~
Guess you're mad because your trolling attempt turned against you ^^;


Whaddaya mean spam entries? Most of my posts were on Tech help section.
But well, off with you. ^^;


Wooo, I've got a personal fan without even looking for it!
Sorry if REAL WORLD is too harsh for you! It's not my fault if you've been pampered for this long :P
Glad I'm helping you to adapt to life, you've got a long way to go.
On topic, PSO2 Graphics might clearly not be the best, but they have a special something which attracts me for some reason, something nowadays games lacks...

Shiro......I don't mean to be that guy, but aren't YOU the reason this tread isn't dying now? ^^;

Shirokami
Oct 6, 2012, 11:56 PM
Shiro......I don't mean to be that guy, but aren't YOU the reason this tread isn't dying now? ^^;

Yeah, you're right, my bad... Guess this is what happens when my internet service provider leaves me with a crappy quality connection which can't even handle PSO2 for a full week... ^^;

NoiseHERO
Oct 6, 2012, 11:57 PM
Yeeeaaaaaahhhhhhh.....

Xenobia is going to keep defending every reply you make with his "my fake humble attitude = everything I say is right and when you grow up you'll understand why, but for now here's something irrelevant" facade.

His words don't even offend anyone, so it's okay if he gets the last hit, just drop it.

(why this was even given it's own thread I don't know)

edit: Oh! ninja posted, well yeah this thread is done now.

Lostbob117
Oct 7, 2012, 12:55 AM
You people want the thread to die, and you people still post on the thread. Please stop being in denial about the graphics, you all act like they're amazing, when they're just good. Dark Souls has a bit better graphics then pso2.

Lostbob117
Oct 7, 2012, 01:05 AM
Gee I wonder what you're doing.

I wonder the same thing about most of the people who usually post on these forums.

http://beust.com/pics/dark-souls-2.jpg

Please compare the graphics, Dark Souls graphics are better then pso2's. In fact Demon's Souls graphics are just as good too.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eUqTtiffJB0/TydMT5tjEgI/AAAAAAAAA9w/GUH--42A5Pg/s1600/DemonsSouls_2.jpg

Vashyron
Oct 7, 2012, 01:35 AM
Like PSU, PSO2s Graphics is also outdated on release and will become more outdated as time passes, plus I don't see a graphics overhaul coming ever.

Personally I'd love it if the game's graphics were better as they certainly could of have achieved it if they wanted to, but this is what I got and I'm "ok" with it.

gravityvx
Oct 7, 2012, 01:47 AM
We all know pso2 has "dated" graphics for 2012, the problem was that he compared it to a turd like oblivion which doesn't hold a grain of salt in comparison. If he had shown Skyrim, that would have been a different story, but at the end of the day graphics don't make a good game, especially mmos. Perfect example would be FFXIV, why I still play it I don't know, but it has very nice graphics for an mmo but the game itself i god awful, so much so that they are completely rebuilding it from the ground up for a re release. PSO2 has good graphics(not amazing), one of the best optimized f2p games I've played, and it's fun, I really dunno what else you could ask for.

gravityvx
Oct 7, 2012, 02:15 AM
No Gameguard i ask for. :D (Prehaps use Steam, because Sega is to dumb making a own protection mechanism).

Repeating myself: Oblivion is 7 years of age and its environment tech is better. That was the point, nothing else. Originally i just wanted to make a short hint, kind of a fun post. It was never intended to be a own topic. But since its a own topic there is another approach needed, best to compare PSO2 picture... nothing else.

Oblivions "environment tech" consists of a bunch of foliage shaking around in the wind, yeah that's groundbreaking, let's forget the fact that the game didn't age well at all and that it's only saving grace was the pc version and user created mods. No really, keep talking because you've been pretty entertaining thus far with your "subtle" trolling. :)

Xenobia
Oct 7, 2012, 11:14 AM
To be clear on that topic,
1. No trash talk, no nonsense (the topic is about PSO2 graphics, nothing else)
2. Criticism allowed, but in a constructive approach (stuff "XY" worse, could be done better by "ZW").
3. Better no contribution when it isnt clear what to say, better to let the topic die... no problem. Comedy content is not required. Better to have 1 mindful post than 100 comedy content.
4. Pictures of PSO2 allowed, pictures from other games only in the matter of 1:1 comparisons. PSO2 need to be included on the same picture, (splittscreen), cant be posted by itself.
5. People should use the best quality possible posting a picture, this topic is about possibility not about raw experience or sightseeing.

Generaly topic can safely be used with not so much comments or views, but probably when someone found something graphically special (good or bad) it can be posted. So in general its the "quality or lack on quality picture topic" to some extend. But always a shot at max quality possible!

Graphics parameters which are of importance:
Tech Count: Easyest to measure, a tech parameter is usualy a polygon, texture, lightning and more.
Art Count: Art can be everything, but in the graphical aspect it means its made with deepness and got good expression.
Vivid count: Means that something is lively, it will look physically or naturally correct, it got the sense of "being truthful and realistic", it doesnt look "artificial".


Common question:
Why to even talk about PSO2 graphics or graphics at all?
Answer:

Some people are getting a Nvidia GPU because of some forced and barely viewable "improved" ambient occlusion, a weak form of shading. Taking into account lower performance, double shaders (can be unnatural), and artifacting. So, indeed some people take quality serious, any form of quality, no matter at what spot.

Obviously, PSO2 fanbase is usualy not biased toward graphics but toward the whole fanservice itself, so it can be hard on judgement because its simply something they exclude on arrival. Fanservice mentality means there is "no need" for certain spots, "no need" for update, "no need" for a non watered down US version and what else. Just accepting everything (as long as it does fit the required shape) because.... well why?

Example: DBonline = 100% fanservice. PSO2 is... some fanservice but its a game which have to stand up against other games and in its class "F2P" its certainly strong doing so.

But what am i? Im a huge RPG gamer and i do consider me as a lover of PSO as a whole. PSO got something no nother game got, a unique touch, even a unique history. But more of all, im a perfectionist. Someone being perfectionistic in nature is not ignoring certain spots just because "hey its PSO it doesnt need to be good at anything". Wrong... PSO have to keep pace with any other game, it have to outrival them, its at competiton and not only made for fans. In that case, yes, the question of its technical aspects is a valid question.


So why do i care about graphics on a F2P game?

My perfectionistic nature is unlimited, and my interests are without bounds. However, most people i meet in my life do have only a very few interest and the others are almost non existent for them. Prehaps they got more interest but lack of possibility in order to gain that interest. That kind of mental approach is good for themself but bad for those with different mentality. So its not any better than when i would say "i want more graphics", because i would cause the same for those who want lesser. But the point is, whats the possibility? Thats a question even a F2P game is facing to some extent. But more of all, its a valid question, there is nothing wrong bringing up such content, even on a game which is made to be graphically meager for the sake of a endless compatibility with even the weakest hardware on the market and of course the development cost is lower.

Besides: My "GFX" is nothing special, its a 7870 which can be gotten for 260$ on Newegg. Almost mainstream price but OCd... so, having good graphics doesnt necessarely need to be a unachievable deluxe matter.


For a game of its class... a FREE TO PLAY, PSO2 is certainly very strong at graphics and stuff, so comparing it with other games of same class, its indeed fine. But that was the whole point of SEGA to turn it into that direction. Because in term it would be another P2P such as PSU or PSO1 it surely will not be able to keep pace with the time anymore, thats a fact.


Quotes from previous topic (i will ask mod to delete because its just 90% OT inside that topic, as the one who brought it up i should be allowed to make that decision, but trying to take over every non OT content posted so far).



I actually partially agree in that the environment art could stand to see some improvement. When it comes to animations, character modeling, and lighting, on the other hand, I could not disagree more.

Cases in point:
[spoiler-box]https://xptjdq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1mO-lnrVCmOXOAtVYvOyRe35GnB-ESDJGIW9LHhffCJqYV-TPXAVOK9vv13sqFcH4e-yVn0vmGK6VMRao0KX7WzIAewj0k-8QawS_tEbYM4yE3k4gKdx5WCA/pso20120917_151548_017.png?psid=1
https://xptjdq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1mK2R5eSULRlfRQP-9SvaOZf3eSlYwj7myx4PDohDvJzSNcGVr8IqnAiuHK8ESZSspM Gr0-Loial6ZxH29RRGjLyIY1Us3jf40_ZDrensJsowFzfAChA9buA/pso20120727_194455_025.png?psid=1
https://xptjdq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1mviO4zE8jQsRJvaXWEceo_LzGeZs-NO5w4Krv9pseVRtPLTVtg0OMDSYMS45lU3L09gcFArbVK8ePLn QoYP1sedsybR1l4fOHXbGBcgqtyx_9PQZ8ZglG4A/pso20120722_151100_056.png?psid=1[/spoiler-box]


Well, at animation/modeling japanese games are always good, i know few who really lack it, but i agree that PSO2 is not having lack with those stats (not to surprising).

West games generally are weaker at those spots. I dunno why but i guess US devs usualy are more focused on the environment.


Lightning:
The Ligthning is usualy focused on single spots, instead of taking it over to a wide area, especially environment (HDR would help it). You see huge explosion and stuff but it barely does affect the surrounding. Of course, the monsters may glow like crazy and stuff but nowadays thats not truly something special and easely implemented.

Highest issue is that the whole appearance of the game is way to clean, to artificial, so straight lined, to less vivid. The problem with japanese mind is that they want maximum level of cleanage and it looks way to clean, so clean that it does lose its "inner" purity, the purity of truth (to good to be true). Everything is simply perfect... but "inner purity" is in need of some imperfection, something which is perfectly imperfect. So not always to look out for the perfect move but prehaps... looking for a dynamic approach, not a always perfect move, perfect surface... perfectly flat texture and even the edges at the polygons are perfectly disgusting.


Clothes:
Another weak spot at characters, the clothes are to flat and not crinkly. I mean, its a huge focus to sell clothes and stuff but they arnt actually made with the maximum amount of love it seems.

Example of crinkly clothes (no they are different on both sides... now we have a perfect imperfection) Even the axis of the char isnt perfect but still a clean appearance..

(splittscreen picture coming soon)



More Quotes coming soon... (taking over).

Ezodagrom
Oct 7, 2012, 11:21 AM
For me and I bet many others, a game with good art style and average technical graphics looks alot better than a game with great technical graphics and bland art style.

This generation has been having way too much focus in the technical part of graphics, not putting enough focus in the art side of graphics. Games with varied environments like PSO2 or with a colourful art style like Sonic Generations or Rayman Origins are a breath of fresh air in this generation of brown games.

Also, PSO2 is an online RPG, these are usually made to run in a wide range of machines, they're not supposed to be graphics benchmarks.

Xenobia
Oct 7, 2012, 12:01 PM
Well the char modeling and movement in general is pretty well, i think. But the weak point is surely the landscape to some extend, especially many of the flat and non vibrant textures.

Considering "Online RPG", there is Age of Conan, Tera Online and stuff like that who indeed have some very strong graphics, and other Online RPGs are continuously updated when it comes to graphics. So, its a bit hard to set a general rule to that type of game because they are continuously advancing. WoW too, the engine is being overhauled in a regular peak.

Still, i got what you wanted to say. Especially when it comes to art style, PSO2 surely got high possibility and it would be nice to see some of that stuff.

Griffin
Oct 7, 2012, 12:11 PM
I can run the game at medium-high settings and manage high FPS even with my shoddy laptop. I think what they have is great; they focus on character models as opposed to landscape texture.

Artificial Sky
Oct 7, 2012, 12:34 PM
You make a lot of good points!

I agree, the game's graphics are exceptional for a F2P. I was so impressed when I first booted the game up. Heck, even coming from Tera, I was still impressed.

I think I know what you mean when you talk about PSO2's "clean" look. The shadows, textures, even the polygon count are more than serviceable. They're actually great. But the look is very cut and dry, very clean. Perhaps boring. Everything is where it should be. Everything is perfect. But isn't this an art-form in itself? The clean lines, shapes and colors, which you disapprove of, could appeal to other people:

I interpret this cleanliness as an artistic choice that completes PSO2's science fiction world. They give it a hard, cold look. That of space and metal and electricity. The world's themselves aren't too overdone, they are subdued to fit the overall tone of the game-world.

But this game does have a little something for everyone i.e. Floating Continent. The area could've been a lot more spectacular. Could've been more vibrant. But stands separate from the natural, typical environments.

As for the clothes, yes! A little extra detail and definition would look amazing! Not too much though. PSO2 is not realism. I would like clothes as separate from the character models. The extra physics would tax a lot of machines though. I would still like to see it. Nothing's stopping them from adding it in!

I really enjoy this kind of conversation and look forward to your corrections, in case I mis-understood something, and your perspective.

P.S.
I'm not sure that I agree with your claim that the Japanese, in general, have this sort of aesthetic taste. I don't take offense at the comment, but some might. Just a little thing to look out for. It's best not to bring race into this kind of discussion, unless it's the topic of debate.

D3MON
Oct 7, 2012, 05:01 PM
To be clear on that topic,
1. No trash talk, no nonsense (the topic is about PSO2 graphics, nothing else)
2. Criticism allowed, but in a constructive approach (stuff "XY" worse, could be done better by "ZW").
3. Better no contribution when it isnt clear what to say, better to let the topic die... no problem. Comedy content is not required. Better to have 1 mindful post than 100 comedy content.
4. Pictures of PSO2 allowed, pictures from other games only in the matter of 1:1 comparisons. PSO2 need to be included on the same picture, (splittscreen), cant be posted by itself.
5. People should use the best quality possible posting a picture, this topic is about possibility not about raw experience or sightseeing.

Generaly topic can safely be used with not so much comments or views, but probably when someone found something graphically special (good or bad) it can be posted. So in general its the "quality or lack on quality picture topic" to some extend. But always a shot at max quality possible!

Graphics parameters which are of importance:
Tech Count: Easyest to measure, a tech parameter is usualy a polygon, texture, lightning and more.
Art Count: Art can be everything, but in the graphical aspect it means its made with deepness and got good expression.
Vivid count: Means that something is lively, it will look physically or naturally correct, it got the sense of "being truthful and realistic", it doesnt look "artificial".


Common question:
Why to even talk about PSO2 graphics or graphics at all?
Answer:



For a game of its class... a FREE TO PLAY, PSO2 is certainly very strong at graphics and stuff, so comparing it with other games of same class, its indeed fine. But that was the whole point of SEGA to turn it into that direction. Because in term it would be another P2P such as PSU or PSO1 it surely will not be able to keep pace with the time anymore, thats a fact.


Quotes from previous topic (i will ask mod to delete because its just 90% OT inside that topic, as the one who brought it up i should be allowed to make that decision, but trying to take over every non OT content posted so far).






(splittscreen picture coming soon)



More Quotes coming soon... (taking over).

http://i.imgur.com/Nr41a.gif

gigawuts
Oct 7, 2012, 05:04 PM
I personally prefer environment design, aesthetic, and art direction over sheer graphical power. This is why PSO1 is still one of my favorite games.

Of course, putting great environmental design together with sheer graphical power is always appreciated, but I won't mind if my circles are very blatantly hexagons. I'll care what the hexagons are used for.

This is why I'm genuinely not bothered by "poor" graphics. Half Life 1 is still one of my favorite games, even for its looks, for instance. After a certain point I find better graphics redundant.

Mystil
Oct 7, 2012, 05:13 PM
Eh what makes PSO2 stand out so much, graphics wise is their powerful physics engine.

Agitated_AT
Oct 7, 2012, 06:40 PM
All I want is better draw distance. That environment and character pop up is really disturbing

Whit
Oct 7, 2012, 07:08 PM
http://i.imgur.com/Nr41a.gif

Couldn't agree more.

Vashyron
Oct 7, 2012, 07:24 PM
All I want is better draw distance. That environment and character pop up is really disturbing

Yeah this is quite a jarring issue I find.

gigawuts
Oct 7, 2012, 08:06 PM
Ugh, yeah, how are we in 2012 playing new games without LOD models?

iridesence
Oct 7, 2012, 09:29 PM
Ugh, yeah, how are we in 2012 playing new games without LOD models?

because alot of people still do not have decent computers.(infact alot of countries around the world still use stuff like windows 98 as standard :-? ) Alot of F2P game companies want to get the broadest user-base possible to maximize possible revenue for there games, so they lower the requirements to run there games.

gigawuts
Oct 7, 2012, 09:36 PM
LOD models actually tend to increase performance when implemented properly. If anything, having only high res models meant to be viewed very closely used for all ranges is going to be a bigger hog.

I'm going to go with Sega being bad/lazy/cheap/all three.

Shirokami
Oct 7, 2012, 11:55 PM
http://i.imgur.com/Nr41a.gif

Agree.

Chik'Tikka
Oct 8, 2012, 12:18 AM
LOD models actually tend to increase performance when implemented properly. If anything, having only high res models meant to be viewed very closely used for all ranges is going to be a bigger hog.

I'm going to go with Sega being bad/lazy/cheap/all three.

LOD models chew RAM though, as they usually stay rendered inside the higher res models up close to keep performance, PSO2 currently is limited to 2GB (including VRAM) so if LOD models are implemented, even if they used 2 (one for distance and one up close, and for effect most games that use it use 3+ models per object) I'd imagine the 2GB ceiling getting hit quite fast when players have 50-200 characters in a lobby on screen causing the game to crash, DX9 was supposed to help in this regard and it could be better implemented, I'd rather they take DX9 or 11 and just try and patch draw distance via a setting in the launcher for those with systems that can handle it rather then old school LOD+^_^+ and if you bring up Zyrusticae's LAA bypass (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199993), SEGAC patched that, attempting to use it causes the patcher to update the game now+^_^+

Sephirah
Oct 8, 2012, 12:22 AM
I haven't read this entire thread yet but are you guys saying PSO2 doesn't use LOD? Because I definitely notice a decrease in quality when I am zoomed out.

Chik'Tikka
Oct 8, 2012, 12:26 AM
I haven't read this entire thread yet but are you guys saying PSO2 doesn't use LOD? Because I definitely notice a decrease in quality when I am zoomed out.

it uses LOD, but not the kind that above poster is talking about+^_^+ i was pointing out one big flaw in old school LOD versus what DX9/11 can give us now+^_^+

gigawuts
Oct 8, 2012, 12:28 AM
LOD models chew RAM though, as they usually stay rendered inside the higher res models up close to keep performance, PSO2 currently is limited to 2GB (including VRAM) so if LOD models are implemented, even if they used 2 (one for distance and one up close, and for effect most games that use it use 3+ models per object) I'd imagine the 2GB ceiling getting hit quite fast when players have 50-200 characters in a lobby on screen causing the game to crash, DX9 was supposed to help in this regard and it could be better implemented, I'd rather they take DX9 or 11 and just try and patch draw distance via a setting in the launcher for those with systems that can handle it rather then old school LOD+^_^+ and if you bring up Zyrusticae's LAA bypass (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199993), SEGAC patched that, attempting to use it causes the patcher to update the game now+^_^+

Would it be that bad though? Surely they could allow players to merely disable LOD models if they caused an issue.

I just want to stop the computer terminals from turning invisible at 20 feet, and entire swathes of planets I'm on popping into/out of existence at 100 yards.

Chik'Tikka
Oct 8, 2012, 12:36 AM
Would it be that bad though? Surely they could allow players to merely disable LOD models if they caused an issue.

I just want to stop the computer terminals from turning invisible at 20 feet, and entire swathes of planets I'm on popping into/out of existence at 100 yards.

0.o, i haven't noticed that except with character models, i'll deffinately have to pay attention and expirament a little tonight when i aint so drunk and can play+^_^+

Vashyron
Oct 8, 2012, 12:39 AM
0.o, i haven't noticed that except with character models, i'll deffinately have to pay attention and expirament a little tonight when i aint so drunk and can play+^_^+

Go into Mines or Skylands and run around, then watch stuff magically appear a small distance in front of you. These areas are worse effected.

gigawuts
Oct 8, 2012, 12:40 AM
It's also especially noticeable in caves, where beyond enough continuous straight caverns there's nothing but the skybox until you get maybe two blocks away.

Vashyron
Oct 8, 2012, 12:46 AM
Funny example.

[spoiler-box]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12804628/PSO2/Final/2012-08-11_00027.jpghttps://dl.dropbox.com/u/12804628/PSO2/Final/2012-08-11_00028.jpg[/spoiler-box]

gigawuts
Oct 8, 2012, 12:48 AM
I have LOADS of screens of this, I can upload some examples if people like. I'd have to do some major screenshot folder searching, though, I push printscreen like I need it to pump blood sometimes.

Chik'Tikka
Oct 8, 2012, 12:59 AM
Funny example.

[spoiler-box]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12804628/PSO2/Final/2012-08-11_00027.jpghttps://dl.dropbox.com/u/12804628/PSO2/Final/2012-08-11_00028.jpg[/spoiler-box]

o.0 i have never had anything that big pop up like that・・・ i think maybe terminals but not landmarks or building or islands, places like desert and skyland i can spot the exit to the next area from the entrance, usually a quick look and i know where to run+^_^+ caves and forest kinda have walls though, so not as easy+^_^+ enemies and people on the other hand, they go poof both ways like crazy+^_^+

Vashyron
Oct 8, 2012, 01:30 AM
o.0 i have never had anything that big pop up like that・・・ i think maybe terminals but not landmarks or building or islands, places like desert and skyland i can spot the exit to the next area from the entrance, usually a quick look and i know where to run+^_^+ caves and forest kinda have walls though, so not as easy+^_^+ enemies and people on the other hand, they go poof both ways like crazy+^_^+


Because mostly the landscape has Full Draw Distance all the times.

Then on the other hand as a example go to Skyland, it's likely you'll see floating patches of grass before the objects they are sitting on show up.

Or even when you are sitting trapped in code elimination in the Urban area and the barriers around you only show up if you get close enough.

Enforcer MKV
Oct 8, 2012, 01:34 AM
Funny example.

[spoiler-box]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12804628/PSO2/Final/2012-08-11_00027.jpghttps://dl.dropbox.com/u/12804628/PSO2/Final/2012-08-11_00028.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Holy sh*t! PHANTOM PARKING GARAGE! D:

BIG OLAF
Oct 8, 2012, 01:50 AM
I've never had pop-up problems like that (what Vash posted) one single time in my whole 800 hours of playtime. Wonder why.

dias_flac_0g
Oct 8, 2012, 02:08 AM
The game looks its best at 1920/1080 with all the in game settings to max aside from Anti-aliasing and Motion Blur.

Then get Nvidia inspector to add some real Super sample AA and you're set. Of course a weak computer wont be able to do all this but if you have it it's awesome.

Aside from that, I would like an option to soften up the smoke edges. You can really see this in the thundra map.

Angelo
Oct 8, 2012, 03:07 AM
In terms of graphical horsepower? 6/10

In terms of aesthetics and atmosphere? 9/10

Chik'Tikka
Oct 8, 2012, 04:46 AM
In terms of graphical horsepower? 6/10

In terms of aesthetics and atmosphere? 9/10

In terms of aesthetics and atmosphere compared to other MMOs (not including past PS games) 10/10 +^_^+

Gama
Oct 8, 2012, 05:17 AM
Considering that pso2 manages to run in a wide range of pc's, the max settings look pretty
decent, and although i think there could be some inprovements "mostly textures" i think the
current engine is great for an online game that is free.

i would also expect that the game's graphics engine would improve in performance, as it already
did "i noticed a big performance boost from the last "big" update.


so theyre working on it.


also about the

graphical horsepower needs improvement "use less resources to give the same result"

aesthetics and atmosphere "aside from some low res textures that i have found around the game"

and trying to see it as a game developer would, i assume that they did everything to improve game performance, but if u run in max settings, these nerfed textures shouldnt be there.

"example" big orb with windows and text in the gate lobby.

Renvalt
Oct 8, 2012, 05:24 AM
That reminds me - in regards to the graphics, I've a few questions:


-What's with my character's eyeballs - or more specifically the irises? They used to shine like gems, now they're all flat.
-How can you get the textures to look all crisp and such without cranking the shaders up too much? If I try to turn the shaders on, my gameplay takes a VERY noticeable FPS dive (though that is also assuming one realizes that fast to me is 30 FPS, not the HD norm of 60 FPS in this current era). I'm not asking for some serious graphics improvement, I just don't want the floor looking like a faded muddy mess.


That said, if there's one thing I can praise SEGA for, it's this - regardless of the game, they do a fantastic job on visuals compared to everyone else. I feel like I could just sit in their game areas (assuming they were real life locations) and just literally melt away in the bliss of the surrounding beauty. In fact it's enough to distract me sometimes.

Flame
Oct 8, 2012, 05:59 AM
In terms of aesthetics and atmosphere compared to other MMOs (not including past PS games) 10/10 +^_^+

oh come on. Tundra, Desert, and floating islands are some of the most bland video game levels I've ever played. 10/10 for aesthetics my butt.

Gama
Oct 8, 2012, 01:40 PM
ps series are pretty much alone in the game industry, so aestetics r unique, in my opinion, so dont hate flame.

Chik'Tikka
Oct 8, 2012, 01:47 PM
That reminds me - in regards to the graphics, I've a few questions:


-What's with my character's eyeballs - or more specifically the irises? They used to shine like gems, now they're all flat.
-How can you get the textures to look all crisp and such without cranking the shaders up too much? If I try to turn the shaders on, my gameplay takes a VERY noticeable FPS dive (though that is also assuming one realizes that fast to me is 30 FPS, not the HD norm of 60 FPS in this current era). I'm not asking for some serious graphics improvement, I just don't want the floor looking like a faded muddy mess.


That said, if there's one thing I can praise SEGA for, it's this - regardless of the game, they do a fantastic job on visuals compared to everyone else. I feel like I could just sit in their game areas (assuming they were real life locations) and just literally melt away in the bliss of the surrounding beauty. In fact it's enough to distract me sometimes.

it was an optimization for people running simple shaders, it my not affect you, but it lowered the minimum requirements a little bit by removing reflections from eyes+^_^+ now if only they'd go to the other end of the spectrum and insert high res textures for those that run with shaders on+^_^+

gravityvx
Oct 8, 2012, 01:54 PM
In terms of graphical horsepower? 6/10

In terms of aesthetics and atmosphere? 9/10

I don't feel any atmosphere in this game unlike previous titles, even psu which I hate, at the very least had an atmosphere to it but the way they designed the maps combined with the story in this game I get nadda from it. I would say the mines so far is exception of a better designed map...until you enter free roam and they totally butcher it back into another linear corridor. I really hope they do a better job on the ruins, which should really give off a very dark atmospheric vibe.

Inazuma
Oct 8, 2012, 02:33 PM
Pretty graphics are nice but things like frame rate, resolution, draw distance, load times, etc. are more important to me. Stuff that make a game more playable.

I know not many people have monitors with 120 refresh rate, but PSO2 supports them.

lostinseganet
Oct 8, 2012, 06:53 PM
With todays tech they your make it look like the intro...and thus they should. At Least one level :(

Chik'Tikka
Oct 8, 2012, 07:56 PM
I don't feel any atmosphere in this game unlike previous titles, even psu which I hate, at the very least had an atmosphere to it but the way they designed the maps combined with the story in this game I get nadda from it. I would say the mines so far is exception of a better designed map...until you enter free roam and they totally butcher it back into another linear corridor. I really hope they do a better job on the ruins, which should really give off a very dark atmospheric vibe.

then please, name another good MMO that lets you run around as a Gynoid+^_^+

Gama
Oct 9, 2012, 03:34 AM
[SPOILER-BOX]http://www.animereq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Ghost-in-the-Shell-Innocence-post.jpg?84cd58[/SPOILER-BOX]


gynoids huh?

Chik'Tikka
Oct 9, 2012, 04:04 AM
[SPOILER-BOX]http://www.animereq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Ghost-in-the-Shell-Innocence-post.jpg?84cd58[/SPOILER-BOX]


gynoids huh?

LOLZ!! you know technically, Motoko would have been considered a gynoid+^_^+ there was nothing organic left in her after all +^_^+ (BTW, looking through google images with safe search on moderate, Gynoid results in Mary KP-X's inspiration right on page one+^_^+)

Gama
Oct 9, 2012, 04:19 AM
Motoko was human once. so she has some regard for life. casts dont, were just killing machines.

"btw gabriel is a bioroid" :D

Finalzone
Oct 9, 2012, 04:59 AM
PSO2 visual are fine giving the intended audience to support minimum requirement. I do wish SEGA support more than DirectX 9 like both OpenGL and DirectX 11 by taking advantage of tesselation on high-end videocards. Improvement could be made on anti-aliasing and higher quality of textures on some environment.
Most MMO, though having high quality of graphics compromised with the gameplay. Given the gamestyle of PSO2, the graphic is fine.

Gama
Oct 9, 2012, 06:01 AM
i supose they could made the game a bit more versatile system wise.

like having a simple engine for low pcs, and use something like sonic generations gfx engine or better for monster pcs.

Enforcer MKV
Oct 9, 2012, 09:39 AM
casts dont, were just killing machines.


I resent that remark. >.>;;

Gama
Oct 9, 2012, 10:05 AM
i see i'm not the only one with a cloned soul.

also why is there 2 topics about graphics?