Dupers........... [Archive]

Balthor

Mar 30, 2003, 12:58 PM

Cause they got nothing else better to do man. Once I enter a team. . . "Look it's a duper! Legit's = Freedom!" (some dumbfuck actully said that once)

I really don't see dupe users going "stupid legit!" in games, it's always the other way around. Heh. And you people make your selves look like "honorable players", when your just as bad as the dupe users, flaming anyone using a weapon everyone else is using. Is this a generalization? Of course it is, just how most of you generalize dupe users as "evil people" and "dishonorable players" (you guys need Bush as your leader, seriously) I have yet to come across a nice legit, most of the time, the little fuckheads like to piss on me for using a god damn Baranz Launcher, or J-Sword.

I'm sorry, when I come across a nice legit (cold day in hell) who knows, I'll change my tune, but for now, and always, you're all whiny little babies.

And you fuckers always wonder why I'm so mad all the time.

Zeebo

Mar 30, 2003, 01:30 PM

What's wrong with expressing my feelings! you people are selfish brats that have no respect for the community! So I dont know why your talking!

Raist

Mar 30, 2003, 04:39 PM

On 2003-03-30 09:58, Balthor_The_Defiled wrote:
Cause they got nothing else better to do man. Once I enter a team. . . "Look it's a duper! Legit's = Freedom!" (some dumbfuck actully said that once)

Ok, there's a difference between somebody who plays legit and people who would actually say something as stupid as that. I and several other people I know online play legitimatley and don't say a damn thing when they see somebody playing with a dupe. If I'm in a game and somebody whips out a what I believe to be a dupe, I just play on unless they start to be an exp hog. I know I'm not the only person who plays like this. Maybe the only reason you have this generalization is because the only way you can tell if someone is legit is if they start whining at you about your dupe. In any case, there are many legit players won't scream at you about what your using online, of that I'm sure.

And you fuckers always wonder why I'm so mad all the time.

Actually I really didn't care.

LordCronai

Mar 30, 2003, 06:41 PM

On 2003-03-30 10:30, Zeebo wrote:
What's wrong with expressing my feelings! you people are selfish brats that have no respect for the community! So I dont know why your talking!

I'll tell you what's wrong with it, we've heard it a million fucking times before! Is PSO a game or a god damn cult? I'm talking because I'm fed up with legits who give us this shit all the time.

Not that I care about whether you spell things or not, but in both your sig and title, it really stands out-addict is spelled with two 'd's. Just so you know ^_^

[ This Message was edited by: LordCronai on 2003-03-30 15:43 ]

Zeebo

Mar 30, 2003, 08:53 PM

I'll tell you what's wrong with it, we've heard it a million fucking times before! Is PSO a game or a god damn cult? I'm talking because I'm fed up with legits who give us this shit all the time.

Not that I care about whether you spell things or not, but in both your sig and title, it really stands out-addict is spelled with two 'd's. Just so you know ^_^

I don't care what you think... If you don't wna hear it dont read the post@! Also I'm sorry that I'm not AMERICAN and I try to spell things out as best as I can... I speak 6 lauguages sorry if I'm not perfect in all of them!

And you fuckers always wonder why I'm so mad all the time.

NO ONE CARES! YOU CALL ME WHINEY...

[ This Message was edited by: Zeebo on 2003-03-30 17:58 ]

LordCronai

Mar 30, 2003, 09:15 PM

I don't care what you think... If you don't wna hear it dont read the post@! Also I'm sorry that I'm not AMERICAN and I try to spell things out as best as I can... I speak 6 lauguages sorry if I'm not perfect in all of them!

I believe I said that part of the message politely and not as an insult. Another thing about English you should know is that we don't use exclaimation points at the end of every sentence.

Zeebo

Mar 30, 2003, 09:28 PM

I believe it means I'm shouting!!! and it did not sound nice at all........

Aurra

Mar 30, 2003, 09:45 PM

On 2003-03-30 09:58, Balthor_The_Defiled wrote:
Cause they got nothing else better to do man. Once I enter a team. . . "Look it's a duper! Legit's = Freedom!" (some dumbfuck actully said that once)

I really don't see dupe users going "stupid legit!" in games, it's always the other way around. Heh. And you people make your selves look like "honorable players", when your just as bad as the dupe users, flaming anyone using a weapon everyone else is using. Is this a generalization? Of course it is, just how most of you generalize dupe users as "evil people" and "dishonorable players" (you guys need Bush as your leader, seriously) I have yet to come across a nice legit, most of the time, the little fuckheads like to piss on me for using a god damn Baranz Launcher, or J-Sword.

I'm sorry, when I come across a nice legit (cold day in hell) who knows, I'll change my tune, but for now, and always, you're all whiny little babies.

And you fuckers always wonder why I'm so mad all the time.

Lol, that post was pretty good... and despite my legit-ness I agree with it. Even though PSO was designed with multiplayer mode in mind, it's not like you're forced to play with people you don't want to. You can make passworded games, play only with friends and refuse to trade if those things suit you. Duping's going to happen, there's no way to really stop it effectively, and we might as well just get over it. Not like it's hurting me if some guy I don't know uses a duped BKB. Hell, it's not hurting me if EVEYRONE uses a duped BKB.

Eum

Mar 30, 2003, 10:01 PM

I'll play with anyone who has a brain, and makes use of it. Embracing this results in PSO being a much more rewarding experience.

Balthor thinks I'm whiny. Leap into the fire? I shall!

Zeebo

Mar 30, 2003, 10:01 PM

Duping currupts the whole comunity... Let say you find the most priceless weapon in a game you so happy cause your the only one who has it and you found it on your own... then its duped (dunno how really) and everyone has one with out even trying! whats that telling you?
and games were designed to play legitly not hack it up the ying yang

LordCronai

Mar 30, 2003, 11:01 PM

Look, I'm cool with it if duping dies. I'll be happy as anyone. But I refuse to ruin my PSO experience by carefully monitoring all my trades to make sure everything is legit.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Edit: Hell just froze over. A nice legit (Aurra).

[ This Message was edited by: LordCronai on 2003-03-30 20:02 ]

Balthor

Mar 30, 2003, 11:08 PM

Can I jump in the fire with you Eum? plzplzplz

Zeebo

Mar 30, 2003, 11:12 PM

I see where your going with this.. But now my life...

IceBlink

Mar 31, 2003, 02:04 AM

Reason why I don't generally like dupers is because they always come into a game and overpower everything... when everyone else is the correct level for the stage they're on.

No, mr SSJVEGETA, I'm not impressed that you can do 600+damage with one hit using your double cannon in a hard game...

:O

LordCronai

Mar 31, 2003, 08:08 AM

:o That's a good point.

[ This Message was edited by: LordCronai on 2003-04-01 05:33 ]

brillyfresh

Mar 31, 2003, 11:39 PM

On 2003-03-30 19:01, Zeebo wrote:
Duping currupts the whole comunity... Let say you find the most priceless weapon in a game you so happy cause your the only one who has it and you found it on your own... then its duped (dunno how really) and everyone has one with out even trying! whats that telling you?
and games were designed to play legitly not hack it up the ying yang

keep telling yourself that, but as long as you don't trade it, that item won't be duped unless you dupe it yourself, so feel gratified in the fact that you own a legit item, i do ... even though some of the items i use are duped, not all of them are

the percentages don't lie, you can tell what is duped and what isn't .... what i'm tired of is people calling me a duper when i'm using legit items .... now that's funny, because i know how i earned that item

so CRY ME A RIVER, Justin Timberlake

Guile

Apr 1, 2003, 02:39 AM

Well I hate everyone.....EVERYONE!!!
nah I'm kidding but legits, dupers, people can all be damn stupid at times...

You all done pissed Balthor off now!

KirinDave

Apr 1, 2003, 06:02 AM

So here I come with a huge, long post/rant at Balthor. I'd love to hear Balthor's response to this.

On 2003-03-30 09:58, Balthor_The_Defiled wrote:
Cause they got nothing else better to do man. Once I enter a team. . . "Look it's a duper! Legit's = Freedom!" (some dumbfuck actully said that once)

How about "Legits just have more fun!" as a catch phrase? The game isn't about using the biggest gun you can possibly get, it's about developing your character and working at it. There is no real sense of pride or gain from just duping and trading cheaply for dupes to make an uber character.

Such characters aren't worth the space they take up!

I really don't see dupe users going "stupid legit!" in games, it's always the other way around.

I do. THey say "That weapon sucks" and "Your MST is too low" and "Wow what weak hits" and "PWNED!" and a plethora of other lame epithets. Usually something along the lines of "I have these rare items you don't have, I am better!" Of course, you see these folks using items they have no idea about, can barely handle, dying all the time anyways.

There are dupers who are skilled at PSO, but I don't see them very often. How many times have I seen a duper with a psycho wand kill themselves with it because they just can't handle it? A lot.

Heh. And you people make your selves look like "honorable players", when your just as bad as the dupe users, flaming anyone using a weapon everyone else is using. Is this a generalization?

You have to admit it's a bit suspicious when someone has a Guld Milla, a Black King Bar, AND an Jsword, on a low level character with an angel wing mag. Especially when they die often. Come on!

Of course it is, just how most of you generalize dupe users as "evil people" and "dishonorable players"

By definition dupers are cheaters. You cannot tenably argue duping is within the rules of the game. Duping is cheating. It is not an "advanced form of play." It hurts everyone by destroying PSO's trading economy. It ruins your experience of the game.

(you guys need Bush as your leader, seriously)

Well, you can have Mr. Al "I invented the internet so my wife can censor more efficiently" Gore, who claimed to not be involved in the technology leak to the chinese because he was "in the bathroom."

Did your dog eat your homework little Al? That's a shame!
Comments like this really show your total lack of perspective.

I have yet to come across a nice legit, most of the time, the little fuckheads like to piss on me for using a god damn Baranz Launcher, or J-Sword.

You realize of course that if you are a nice duper, you're in a tremendous minority. Many, many dupers are complete jackasses. They take up space in a game, they make fun of people, they won't leave if asked politely under reasonable circumstances, they are often unskilled players who need frequent rezzes. It's also terribly frustrating to see their little 20hr character do more damage than your 60hr character with 20 levels on them because someone gave them a bkb+1000000000.

So maybe people are a little bit intense about the duping issue.

I'm sorry, when I come across a nice legit (cold day in hell) who knows, I'll change my tune, but for now, and always, you're all whiny little babies.

And when I come across ONE duper who can justify their dupes in the larger sense, I'll go out and get every dupe I can and eat my dirty socks.

Duping is a lot like being a bully. You might scoff at that, but think about this. Duping is about relative power. If everyone got exactly the same super-rare gear, you'd want even rarer gear. The idea is to have the best gear. Generally, something is fair if you could tolerate EVERYONE doing it.

If EVERY SINGLE PERSON had a dupe of EVERY ITEM... PSO would be terribly bland. You and I both know that. You can splutter and deny it and say you've somehow "earned" your duped items, but we both know it's cheating. Cheaters may prosper, but they never get the big picture.

And you f*****s always wonder why I'm so mad all the time.

And I wonder where the board mods are all the time.

IceBlink

Apr 1, 2003, 06:22 AM

ZechsMarquis

Apr 1, 2003, 11:53 AM

heh heh...i hope you didnt revive him

Balthor

Apr 1, 2003, 04:14 PM

Boy, you got a lot nerve to come up on me like that.

Let's see, I didn't bother to read your bullshit, so how about you make your own post, without chopping up my post with numerous quotes, mmmmmk?

People these days can't argue for themselves, so what to they do? Fill up their post with 70% of another person's post!

I just noticed some horse shit in bold about "PSO economy ruined, wah wah wah" yeah yeah, same ol' cry me a river whine.

Get back to me with your own post, without having to quote me 78 times, kthxdie.

[ This Message was edited by: Balthor_The_Defiled on 2003-04-01 13:19 ]

KirinDave

Apr 1, 2003, 04:30 PM

I guess I do have a lot of nerve, Balthor. But someone had to tell you like it is. You're deluding yourself right now.

Let's see, I didn't bother to read your bullshit, so how about you make your own post, without chopping my up my post with numerous quotes, mmmmmk?

People these days can't argue for themselves, so what to they do? Fill up their post with 70% of another person's post!

Very nice. You neatly dodge any of the legitamite issues by complaining that you don't like the style of my post. You don't bother to read becaus you don't have any answer. I'm sorry, it's sad to see you don't have the attention span to read my post. What I wrote stands best within the context of your post. I addressed your points quote by quote, otherwise people like you try to worm out of what you said and it becomes a pain.

You may be a newbie to webboards and the proper format for responses, that's okay. This format is an accepted convention in Usenet and on most webboards. You'll get used to it.

Since you have a short attention span, let me boil it down to you:
In bold, so you notice.

The points of my previois post in MTV-Generation Format:
1) Dupers are cheating. There is no denying this fact.
2) Dupers are notorious for assinine behavior. They are rude to everyone. Legit folks are on average only rude to dupers.
2.5) Of course there are exceptions to this. Duh.
3) Duping hurts everyone by ruining PSO's economy, which is a unique aspect of PSO's game. Section IDs and rares-by-id are there for a reason. Go play Diablo II.
4) No one is crying for you to stop like an insipid two year olds. We are telling you that you're being a jackass, then locking you out of our games. Consider it timeout for your juvenile behavior.
5) The only reason you dupe is to show off and give yourself a sense of superiority over other PSO players. If everyone duped you wouldn't have as much fun.

Don't bother responding. You don't have anything intelligent to say. Hey, I even pandered to you! I didn't chop up your post!

Eum

Apr 1, 2003, 04:31 PM

Autograph, please!

But, really: it's sad that people have to fill up the glass of water with all of those quotes. Doesn't say much for your reading and interpretation.

[Edit] I wanted Balthor's autograph.

And speaking as a veteran of numerous message boards of many different varieties, I will say that the method which you used to respond was not any sort of "universal" technique. Furthermore, pleading exposure to help the fact that the person you're directing your pathetic argument at has no interest in what you have to say is sad, and embarassing to witness.

Go drink anti-freeze.

[ This Message was edited by: Eum on 2003-04-01 13:33 ]

KirinDave

Apr 1, 2003, 04:44 PM

I can see what you're saying Eum, but know what? The format I used is offtopic to this thread. I will not continue to defend it, we can start a new thread over it. EOT.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of people who think vitriol == content. Address the points directed at you. Do not just say you dislike the format! Sorry people don't play cognative patty-cake with you to get their point across. Some of us expect literacy from our debaters.

Neither you, Eum, nor Balthor, have addressed what I actually said except to note that community pressure is not a very effective means of stopping duping. Know what? You're right. However, it's all we have. Sonic Team gave no technical allowances for stopping duping. Speaking from the perspective of someone qualified in cryptography and data security, it's impossible for them to do give then fact that offline mode characters must be portable to online mode.

You work with what you have.
I guess your posts are proof of that.

Balthor

Apr 1, 2003, 04:46 PM

On 2003-04-01 13:30, KirinDave wrote:
I guess I do have a lot of nerve, Balthor. But someone had to tell you like it is. You're deluding yourself right now.

Let's see, I didn't bother to read your bullshit, so how about you make your own post, without chopping my up my post with numerous quotes, mmmmmk?

People these days can't argue for themselves, so what to they do? Fill up their post with 70% of another person's post!

Very nice. You neatly dodge any of the legitamite issues by complaining that you don't like the style of my post. You don't bother to read becaus you don't have any answer. I'm sorry, it's sad to see you don't have the attention span to read my post. What I wrote stands best within the context of your post. I addressed your points quote by quote, otherwise people like you try to worm out of what you said and it becomes a pain.

You may be a newbie to webboards and the proper format for responses, that's okay. This format is an accepted convention in Usenet and on most webboards. You'll get used to it.

Since you have a short attention span, let me boil it down to you:
In bold, so you notice.

The points of my previois post in MTV-Generation Format:
1) Dupers are cheating. There is no denying this fact.
2) Dupers are notorious for assinine behavior. They are rude to everyone. Legit folks are on average only rude to dupers.
2.5) Of course there are exceptions to this. Duh.
3) Duping hurts everyone by ruining PSO's economy, which is a unique aspect of PSO's game. Section IDs and rares-by-id are there for a reason. Go play Diablo II.
4) No one is crying for you to stop like an insipid two year olds. We are telling you that you're being a jackass, then locking you out of our games. Consider it timeout for your juvenile behavior.
5) The only reason you dupe is to show off and give yourself a sense of superiority over other PSO players. If everyone duped you wouldn't have as much fun.

Don't bother responding. You don't have anything intelligent to say. Hey, I even pandered to you! I didn't chop up your post!

Snippy little automaton aren't you?

Look I quoted you, maybe that's the only way you can argue.

Let's see here dingbat!

It's funny you people generalize anyone using a dupe is a duper, but that's what your good at! Generalizing!

Oh my god how many times are we gonna hear the whole "duping ruined PSO economy!!111" for fuck's sake don't trade if it makes you cry that much, but nah, you'll just continue to moan and whine like a little bitch.

Heehee, I love making you put so much thought (thought? nah, more like nagging and moaning) into your little babbles, and what happens? I just shrug you off? Why? Cause stupid thickheaded fuckwits like you won't ever see things at different angles. Just ride along with the legit crowd, I'm sure you think it's your ticket to heaven. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Please go choke on a thumbtack Timmy, I'm tired of little "net debaters" like you.

KirinDave

Apr 1, 2003, 04:55 PM

Are you going to actually answer me Balthor, or are you going to hope enough venom will piss me off and make me forget?

Why do you use dupes? Because it's more fun? The reason you're doing it is because other people aren't. You're getting a rise out of lording items over people. Sure, some people whine and cry, others swear and curse. You know what? I just think it's kind of sad. Are you really that desperate for attention that you try hold rare items over people's heads in an online game? PSO isn't even competitive, where does all this insecurity in your character come from?

Answer the questions put to you, kiddo, if you intent do continue this conversation. Otherwise, I'd suggest you make some more tired old "baby" and "wah wah" comments and leave the thread under that pretext. If you do though, everyone will see it for what it is.. running away with your duped devil's tail mag between your legs.

By the way, if you think these posts take much thought or effort or emotional energy on my part, I'm sorry. They don't. If you'd like, I could put on my kiddee gloves and pretend for you.

Balthor

Apr 1, 2003, 05:02 PM

Why do I like to use dupes? Because I like to piss off little dung beetles like you, and I don't even mean to!

Let's see, I walk in a game wielding a shiny Yasminkov 7000V, oooooooh! When I think it's a good weapon, but in your little head, now it's called showing off? Hah.

Say you have a legit Yasminkov 7000V, no doubt you'd be flaunting it like none-other.

I use dupes because they're good weapons, I don't go around hogging EXP, or whatnot, but here's the point you keep missing, you just keep generalizing people who use dupes and exp hogging show offs.

And you say I dodge points, Mr. "All dupe users are evil show offs!"

Like I said, the kind of person you are, is to thick headed to look at all things from a different angle, instead you just want to judge people for the sake of it.

Makes my job more joyful at the morgue!

[ This Message was edited by: Balthor_The_Defiled on 2003-04-01 14:06 ]

LordCronai

Apr 1, 2003, 05:06 PM

On 2003-04-01 13:30, KirinDave wrote:

1) Dupers are cheating. There is no denying this fact.

True.

On 2003-04-01 13:30, KirinDave wrote:

2) Dupers are notorious for assinine behavior. They are rude to everyone. Legit folks are on average only rude to dupers.
2.5) Of course there are exceptions to this. Duh.

This is bullshit. Not exceptions, but the majority of dupe users are not rude. If all you give a fuck about is generalizing and percents, then the percent of legits that are rude is *MUCH* higher than the percent of dupers are-because face it, dupers are the common people, and legits are the ones who bitch at them.

On 2003-04-01 13:30, KirinDave wrote:

3) Duping hurts everyone by ruining PSO's economy, which is a unique aspect of PSO's game. Section IDs and rares-by-id are there for a reason. Go play Diablo II.

If I quit playing with dupes and dupe-users, would duping not exist anymore? Get it through your head: You can't make an actual fucking difference. You legits have your own special little economy, so why do you even care about us losers? How is it your problem if we're the ones who are cheating ourselves?

On 2003-04-01 13:30, KirinDave wrote:

4) No one is crying for you to stop like an insipid two year olds. We are telling you that you're being a jackass, then locking you out of our games. Consider it timeout for your juvenile behavior.

Don't think for a second that we give a fuck about playing with you in your locked games. Its you whining in our faces, spamming up our trade topics, and insulting us in our non-discriminative games that pisses us off.

On 2003-04-01 13:30, KirinDave wrote:

5) The only reason you dupe is to show off and give yourself a sense of superiority over other PSO players. If everyone duped you wouldn't have as much fun.

More bullshit. No one is impressed by people who show off, so why would we? Personally, I first used dupes because I refuse to ruin my PSO experience by having to check to make sure in every trade that everything is legit because of the few who actually generate the dupes into the community. Now that I'm not legit, and as you assholes have kindly pointed out, you're either 100% legit or you're a cheater-so I have no reason not to get as many dupes as possible.

KirinDave

Apr 1, 2003, 05:12 PM

On 2003-04-01 14:02, Balthor_The_Defiled wrote:
Why do I like to use dupes? Because I like to piss off little dung beetles like you, and I don't even mean to!

Thank you. You just made my point. You do it because you like to piss people off. What do we call people who enjoy angering others? Assholes. You can do what you like, no one can stop you. Youu just need to realize what you are doing is assinine behavior.

Honestly, I woudln't show off any weapons I have unless people ask me to. I use the best weapon for the job, and that is seldom the most rare. Sure, if I had a guld milla I'd use it against the Sil Dragon. Duh. We're talking about people who use a bkb+10k against every foe, and tell you your less rare weapon items suck, without even seeing the %'s.

I'm sure other people have seen this behavior. I'm sure there are many more people here with horror stories about dupers/dupe-users (if you want to make that distinction, I feel that knowingly using dupes is just as bad as duping, you're still part of the problem) who do exactly what you're complaining about.

Aurra

Apr 1, 2003, 05:23 PM

On 2003-04-01 03:02, KirinDave wrote:
You have to admit it's a bit suspicious when someone has a Guld Milla, a Black King Bar, AND an Jsword, on a low level character with an angel wing mag. Especially when they die often. Come on!

Hey, I not all of the Angel's Wings are duped... Last Christmas a St. Rappy handed over a Heart of Angel to yours truly http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

KirinDave

Apr 1, 2003, 05:30 PM

Wow, someone gave a more well-thought out response.

On 2003-04-01 14:06, LordCronai wrote:
This is bullshit. Not exceptions, but the majority of dupe users are not rude.

Most people on this site would disagree with you. You're very much entitled that opinion, but I don't think the statistics would bear it out. I have met many more rude dupe users than rude legit users. I have met a grand total of two active dupers/dupe-users who were not rude.

If I quit playing with dupes and dupe-users, would duping not exist anymore? Get it through your head: You can't make an actual fucking difference.

Err, if no one would play with dupers, then dupers would feel rather isolated. If the dupers only play games with each other, then they don't affect me do they? In that case I don't care what you do. Just like I don't care what you do offline. Dupe all you want for offline chars. Cheat, max, whatever. Have a blast. You don't affect anyone there.

All we can do is set an example and hope others will follow. So what if it's a doomed endeavor? it's a matter of principle.

You legits have your own special little economy, so why do you even care about us losers?

Would that that were true. Our "legit economy" is basically "play with a small number of people and share." Without a larger number of people joining together, we can't make a real economy. Since dupes are so ubiquitous, it's very hard to build trust-relationships between groups of people.

How is it your problem if we're the ones who are cheating ourselves?

You're not cheating just yourself when you play online. You devalue all objects. You sound intelligent, I'm sure you can figure this out.

More bullshit. No one is impressed by people who show off, so why would we? Personally, I first used dupes because I refuse to ruin my PSO experience by having to check to make sure in every trade that everything is legit because of the few who actually generate the dupes into the community. Now that I'm not legit, and as you assholes have kindly pointed out, you're either 100% legit or you're a cheater-so I have no reason not to get as many dupes as possible.

You say this, but then look at what your dupee/duper just said. He enjoys pissing people off. Hrrm.. sorry, I take these things as indicitive of the duper community.

KirinDave

Apr 1, 2003, 05:35 PM

On 2003-04-01 14:23, Aurra wrote:

Hey, I not all of the Angel's Wings are duped... Last Christmas a St. Rappy handed over a Heart of Angel to yours truly http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

That's awesome. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I am hoping to get my very own this easter, if we're lucky. Your earned angel wing mag is worth a thousand dupes to you.

It's my feeling that legits just have more fun.

LordCronai

Apr 1, 2003, 06:13 PM

On 2003-04-01 14:30, KirinDave wrote:
Most people on this site would disagree with you. You're very much entitled that opinion, but I don't think the statistics would bear it out. I have met many more rude dupe users than rude legit users. I have met a grand total of two active dupers/dupe-users who were not rude.

To each his own opinion, and I guess its best to leave it at this.

On 2003-04-01 14:30, KirinDave wrote:
All we can do is set an example and hope others will follow. So what if it's a doomed endeavor? it's a matter of principle.

That's fine, but your methods are questionable. We don't appreciate you getting in our faces everywhere we go about it.

On 2003-04-01 14:30, KirinDave wrote:
Would that that were true. Our "legit economy" is basically "play with a small number of people and share." Without a larger number of people joining together, we can't make a real economy. Since dupes are so ubiquitous, it's very hard to build trust-relationships between groups of people.

Unfortunately because of the assholes in the world who will always find a way to ruin the game for their enjoyment, PSO will never have the perfect community you dream of.

On 2003-04-01 14:30, KirinDave wrote:
You devalue all objects.

This is actually not true, as the objects have to exist in someones hands even if its not me. Its the person who made them (the dupes) exist's fault (the duper, not the dupe-user). If I refused to use it, then someone else would instead.

On 2003-04-01 14:30, KirinDave wrote:
You say this, but then look at what your dupee/duper just said. He enjoys pissing people off. Hrrm.. sorry, I take these things as indicitive of the duper community.

Once again, I'd appreciate it if you stop generalizing--because just as not all duper/dupe-users are well-intentioned, neither are some legits (i.e. Once someone posted "The only thing I hope you get for your list full of dupes is a memory card corruption!"...because one person said something like that, does that mean the legit community wishes evil upon everyone else?).

On 2003-04-01 14:30, KirinDave wrote:
Wow, someone gave a more well-thought out response.

Thanks, I appreciate you giving the same back.

Aurra

Apr 1, 2003, 08:36 PM

On 2003-04-01 14:35, KirinDave wrote:
Your earned angel wing mag is worth a thousand dupes to you.

I guess it is. I know I wouldn't trade it for any item in the game, duped or legit. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Zeebo

Apr 1, 2003, 10:05 PM

Oh yes, that reminds me, this guy came into my game in ep2 on very hard, got out his duped weapons, proceeded to brag about them, laughed at our weapons, ran ahead, and got himself slaughtered in just a few seconds.

We couldn't help but laugh...

heheheheh i would have steped on him...

Why do I like to use dupes? Because I like to piss off little dung beetles like you, and I don't even mean to!

You whine like a 2 year old...

The points of my previois post in MTV-Generation Format:
1) Dupers are cheating. There is no denying this fact.
2) Dupers are notorious for assinine behavior. They are rude to everyone. Legit folks are on average only rude to dupers.
2.5) Of course there are exceptions to this. Duh.
3) Duping hurts everyone by ruining PSO's economy, which is a unique aspect of PSO's game. Section IDs and rares-by-id are there for a reason. Go play Diablo II.
4) No one is crying for you to stop like an insipid two year olds. We are telling you that you're being a jackass, then locking you out of our games. Consider it timeout for your juvenile behavior.
5) The only reason you dupe is to show off and give yourself a sense of superiority over other PSO players. If everyone duped you wouldn't have as much fun.

HAHAHA HE TOTALLY IS RIGHT

Listen the only reason I created this forum is to discuss this forum... If your going to be a pain in the ass like Baltor just keep it to yourself...

When we play we want to play with other legits that why we dont close the games... But you people are everywhere...... Running in like idiots and showing off that you duped an item. You drop the item when it only gets in the way....

And finally last thing is that if you are a cheater/duper and you keep saying you don't care! THEN STAY OUT OF THE CONVERSATION!

Balthor

Apr 1, 2003, 10:43 PM

Hey fucktard, we're allowed to come in here and post to, if you don't fucking like it, to bad, you made the thread, deal with it. And you say I whine like a 2 year old. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif Pot kettle black. . .

Face it Zeebo, stop riding your little legit buddy's ass, I knew the second another stuck up legit would come in here, you would rub them on like the little cheerleader you are.

and STOP TYPING like THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ This Message was edited by: Balthor_The_Defiled on 2003-04-01 19:46 ]

Zeebo

Apr 1, 2003, 11:18 PM

Hey fuckhead...... Hmmm your a mod do tell me are we allowed to harass the other members.... Listen what's your problem... I know I'm to much on the legit think and such but this forum was just made for me to express my feelings... I'm sorry if I dissed you somehow but that's just how I feel...

Aurra

Apr 1, 2003, 11:54 PM

Am I the only legit who doesn't have a problem with people duping stuff? Yeah I have chosen to play legit because it suits me better (I actually log on to PSO more to just hang out with my buds rather than level up and such), but that doesn't mean that everyone has to play like I do. Jeez, it's a frickin game, not a final judgement on what kind of person you are in real life. Seems like legits and non-legits are becoming rival gangs or something.

Sincere

Apr 2, 2003, 12:30 AM

XD

I can easily say I've thouroughly enjoyed this...

Balthor, just don't say anything else. Dude just hit the nail on the head about dupers, and reamed you and a couple of others in the process. Besides, if you didn't care what he had to say, you wouldn't have wrote back. Oh, and to jump ahead of you, before you say I'm a "SUPER DUPER LEGIT OMG! CHEERLEADER", I might as well tell you that I'm not really at all, since I dislike annoying legits as well as dupers... but more the latter http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Balthor

Apr 2, 2003, 01:02 AM

Ooooooh look I said something else.

More ticks and leechs to heat up the flames!

IceBlink

Apr 2, 2003, 02:37 AM

Some of you are being stupid. If you argue, then please argue in a civilised manner.

o_O

For both arguments' sake, I still would prefer to play with 'normal' people than with people with duped gear. True, there may be people with the duped stuff who do play a nice game, and yes, there are legits who are so uptight, it's not funny...

But currently, the ratio of stupid people with duped stuff to nice people with duped stuff is just too one-sided. o_O The last three games I was in...

*myself, and at least one person playing, not using dupes, finding ep2 a challenge*

somestupidnameoranother: *joins game* PIPE PLZ/TRADE!/HELLO!

After a short moment on whether to pipe, we give in

somestupidnameoranother: *warps down, and is using one of the three most duped weapons in game. They proceed to swap their gear around, revealing they have all three. They still manage to die*

After that, someone else joins, using one of the rare double saber weapons of Ep2, and instantly, somestupidnameoranother would try to strike up a trade, first nicely, and when the person refuses, with other dupes, or combinations, and goes right down to being so pathetic...

... you get the picture.

Meanwhile, we just carried on, got to boss, and the double saber guy joins us while the duper person is still trying to convince the four person... from town. Apparently cycling through his dupes. Hehe.

KirinDave

Apr 2, 2003, 04:43 AM

On 2003-04-01 15:13, LordCronai wrote:
That's fine, but your methods are questionable. We don't appreciate you getting in our faces everywhere we go about it.

The only time I personally yell "duper!" is when someone really proves it beyond all shadow of a doubt. When they flash the full duped-kit and are crude and make fun of other less rare weapons (poor TacoHo, your dragon slayer doesn't suck!), make fun of characters doing less damage with more common gear and techs..

I'd yell at legit folks under the same circumstances though. Of course, I've yet to have that happen... I will happily generalize that all groups contain jerks though.

PSO will never have the perfect community you dream of.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make the community a better place. We're never going to have world peace, but we should still try.

This is actually not true, as the objects have to exist in someones hands even if its not me. Its the person who made them (the dupes) exist's fault (the duper, not the dupe-user). If I refused to use it, then someone else would instead.

And if someone else refused? And the person after that? And the person after that? The funny thing about people who are actually doing the duping is that they must have found or made the item and then had the skills to actually dupe it. The true irony is that this mess was started by some of the best legits of them all.

Am I the only one who finds that funny? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Once again, I'd appreciate it if you stop generalizing--because just as not all duper/dupe-users are well-intentioned, neither are some legits

Sorry, but we live in a world of generalizations. With the god-awful quoting format of this webboard, these posts already take way too much space to address properly. I can't enumerate every single case, nor am I qualified. I am merely saying that it is the average of my experiences, and the average of the experience I hear the most about from this board.

I'm glad we at least understand each other. It's nice to see someone on the duper/dupe-user's side mount a real argument for once, instead of trying the hackneyed "crybaby" response or just being even bigger jerks.

Of course, some people purportedly on my side aren't helping much, with positively embarrassing signatures and poorly thought-out arguments. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif Well what can ya do?

Derkin

Apr 2, 2003, 06:32 AM

*reads Balthor's posts*

Wow. Way back up your opinions! Those third grade insults really shut everyone up! And here I thought you were being immature, silly me.

You really wonder why legit players dislike dupers? Read through your posts, realize the ass you were being, then think about it. I find it ammusing when I join a game titled along the lines of "Legit Only" and find that there are people flaunting their dupes. Why would you join a game like that when people are trying to play legitly? No one will ooo and aww over your items. Not to mention pull out every 12 and 11 star rare and claim they are legit. If you want to play with dupes, fine, just leave me alone.

No, legit players aren't perfect either. There are plenty of asses who play legit too, there are just more dupers (duper as in "one who uses a dupe" not actually duplicating the item.)

TeamPhalanx

Apr 2, 2003, 08:28 AM

A lot of the posts here are just really funny or just doesn't make any sense.

On both sides, the only person that has presented a valid argument is KirinDave. That said, I'd advise everyone else not talk about the subject when you don't know all the issues.

To all those that claim that we legits "whine" go right now (right after you read this paragraph) to the Cheats forum and look at the names of the people who are complaining about cheating. Now, go see whether or not those people are in fact legit.

Yes, the answer is really obvious, but, as usual, you cheaters will blindfold yourselves.

One thing that I find to be (very) amusing is that fact that the cheater's slogan these days seem to be "Quit Whining." I'm sure as some of you know, it used to be "Cheating doesn't hurt the game." Makes you wonder what their next one will be.

LordCronai

Apr 2, 2003, 09:51 AM

Hey, let's face the facts then. I'm a cheater who needs fucking therapy! I'm ruining everyone else's experience for my own selfish benefit! I guess I should be shot and sent to hell.

I tried being legit for a while, but I was just too dependent on my old items. Maybe because I suck at knowing how to play legit. Maybe because I suck at playing PSO. Whatever the cause, I'm an evil cheater and there's nothing that can be done.

TeamPhalanx

Apr 2, 2003, 11:25 AM

Actually, you would be best described as some brat you can't form any clear statements and always resorts to insults and/or improper language.

Here's a solution to your problem: You are a plague, so remove yourself from the body. Quit playing PSO. Very simple, no?

But, as usual, the obvious things seem to escape your kind.

Balthor

Apr 2, 2003, 12:49 PM

Ahhhh the minute I saw Phalanx come in here, no doubt I would see the ol' "cheaters are blind" rant he/she/it always presents.

No point in even trying to argue with you since you have a skull thicker then a football helmet, and view everything in your little world.

Robots will be ignored.

As for the rest of the little anti-cheater freedom fighters, continue to soak up all the kleenex in the room, I use dupes for fun, oooooh but in your little heads, that makes me a duper, and an evil person!

Go you!

TeamPhalanx

Apr 2, 2003, 01:22 PM

That makes you a cheater. (duh?)

Did you check out the cheats forum? Don't restrict yourself to the cheat forum here. Go check out other sites and see who the people are that complain about there being a new dupe and stuff.

Also, I said neither side here (cept that one user) had a clue what they were talking about. (those that made direct comments on the subject)

Let's make this real simple for you.

List all the relevant facts about PSO & Cheating. In other words, list the cheat history of PSO - The cheats and the results. I bet you can't do it.

How do I know you can't do it? Because anyone that knows all the facts wouldn't dare try to argue the pro-cheat side, because there's nothing (well, cept one argument, but I doubt anyone here can present that argument) one can present to defend cheating.

And that is what makes you stupid & blind. Because you choose to argue something when you don't even have anything to support your side.

It is cheating. There is no such thing as the right to cheat. It does not exist. However, the right not to be affected by cheating does exist.

(Why do I get the feeling that only 1/10 of the people here actually know something about ethics?)

Ranger_Larry

Apr 2, 2003, 01:41 PM

Question: Did you or did you not support Bill Clinton after he got caught cheating? I know of many people that think they are "ethical" that still supported him because "the country was doing well". Going by your standards he certainly should have been removed from office, considering it's the most important job in the world!! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

TeamPhalanx

Apr 2, 2003, 02:11 PM

That's more of a societal view. eg//Most French pretty much had the "Um... So what?" view when it came to the matter.

In either case, in that case, the definition of cheating came down to one man - Bill Clinton.

In PSO's case, cheating is defined by the PSO Gods, SONIC TEAM. It's their game - They created the world in which we play in. The PSO Gods have made it clear that they do not like cheating, which is duping, making items via PC/cheat device, and harming other characters.

Banned items are a result of people making items. Double save & v1.1 is a result of duping. I don't think I need to support the statement that they don't like pk, nol, etc.

This has been a brief lecture on one of the facts that cheaters are blind of - Have a nice day.

Balthor

Apr 2, 2003, 02:11 PM

Listen you bootlegged C-3PO, did I ever say it wasn't cheating? No. Do I care what you think? Of course not. So it's cheating, oh-fucking-well.

The one point I try to make here is that not every single god damn person using a dupe is a fucking duper, or some kinda of satanist.

Instead, you go generalizing everyone, hating for the sake of hating.

Suddenly, it's wrong for me to hate legits, suddenly, it's wrong to have an opinion on arrogant little fuckheads like you. Suddenly, I'm not allowed to say anything about legits, but they can say whatever they want about people using dupes!

Thumbs up for you asshat.

LordCronai

Apr 2, 2003, 02:17 PM

So now that you've proved us wrong (in your own mind anyway), what would you suggest I do? Face it, I'm not quitting PSO, whether I stay cheater or go legit.

TeamPhalanx

Apr 2, 2003, 02:31 PM

I love the use of language... so elegant...

Cheating is cheating. What is so hard to understand about that?

The following are facts:

1) Cheating hurts the game.

2) Even if you do not cheat, cheating affect you.

My guess is you have no idea why those are facts. I suggest you do some research and find out why.

Btw, I still don't see any facts on your side... I wonder why?

Again, did you go and see who complains about cheating?

A little addition...

I haven't won anything because the only argument presented here was for the legit side.

Like I've said before, this topic is funny because it's full of posts that simply do not make sense.

[ This Message was edited by: TeamPhalanx on 2003-04-02 11:35 ]

ABDUR101

Apr 2, 2003, 02:41 PM

No more personal insults, and cut down on the swearing abit. Argue and debate all you want, but personal insults have no place.

hououtate

Apr 2, 2003, 02:47 PM

TeamPhalanx

Apr 2, 2003, 04:11 PM

There are those that cheat via PC. This includes tweaking character data as well as items.

brillyfresh

Apr 2, 2003, 05:40 PM

On 2003-04-02 10:22, TeamPhalanx wrote:
How do I know you can't do it? Because anyone that knows all the facts wouldn't dare try to argue the pro-cheat side, because there's nothing (well, cept one argument, but I doubt anyone here can present that argument) one can present to defend cheating.

well, it would take the "last legit" to know the only argument capable of defending cheating, but i would wager that the "last legit" would never reveal what that argument was, since even "the last legit" probably doesn't have a rebuttal to that argument

could that be about backing up a character in the event of a corruption? because, even though such a possibility can be severely exploited, i see NOTHING wrong with having a backup

does anyone disagree? and save your opinions about the possibility of duping, that's an obvious response .... given the opportunity, would you keep a backup of your character/s, even if that meant you were a cheater?

no insults intended, to either legits or cheaters .. i'm not like that .... and not being sarcastic up there, Phalanx, really

[ This Message was edited by: brillyfresh on 2003-04-02 14:45 ]

Raist

Apr 2, 2003, 05:48 PM

On 2003-04-02 14:40, brillyfresh wrote:
could that be about backing up a character in the event of a corruption? because, even though such a possibility can be severely exploited, i see NOTHING wrong with having a backup

I would have no problem with somebody backing up there character, I'm glad that Sonic Team didn't include it as it would make duping that much easier. But if people were backing up there characters I would look at it the same way I look at somebody cheating offline, it doesn't effect me or the community so I really could care less.

Aurra

Apr 2, 2003, 05:56 PM

I probably wouldn't back up a character. One, because I'm pretty sure I could beat an FSOD-X. Two, I would feel awkward playing one of my characters who had already been killed. It's like that movie with RePets, where if your dog dies you could have a cloned one exactly like it but the kid didn't like the new dog, lol.

KirinDave

Apr 2, 2003, 06:45 PM

On 2003-04-02 11:11, Balthor_The_Defiled wrote:
Listen you bootlegged C-3PO, did I ever say it wasn't cheating? No. Do I care what you think? Of course not. So it's cheating, oh-fucking-well.

I think it's cute the way you say cheating is no big deal. It's like the 5-year old I was teaching to play Foozball the other day. I'd show him how to shoot a goal, and the ball would go in his goal. He'd reflexively blurt out, "That doesn't count!" He didn't know why, he was just desperate to have me think he was good.

The rules for games are there for a reason. Surprisingly enough, they're not to repress you or ruin your game. They're there to make the game more fun for everyone. When you have all these dupes, they make the items less rare. When people find rare item, and then you happen to have a dupe of it, suddenly the item they put in the time for is less rare. It means less.

So, even using dupes hurts other people, besides the pseudo-economic reprocussions.

Besides, using these powerful but common items is really not as fun anyways. It's much more fun to use alternative strategies. Everyone knows you can tear stuff up with a tsumikiri J-sword. Once upon a time that was a cool weapon. Now it's common. Yay.

Keep reading, there's more. Rest your eyes if you're not used to reading this much at one time without colorful pictures.

The one point I try to make here is that not every single god damn person using a dupe is a fucking duper, or some kinda of satanist.

You are probably not a satanist, and I don't think you're smart enough to be duping. However, you're a dupe user, and you knowingly do so. You do it and you have personally said you enjoy pissing people off on the subject.

Instead, you go generalizing everyone, hating for the sake of hating.

I am not generalizing. I will make this very personal, at the risk of incurring the board mod's wrath, but you requested it.

You, personally are an asshole. You are a jerk. A wanker. A dumbfsck. A 'tard.
Not all dupers. Not anyone else. Just you. All you.

I don't hate you. No one here is hating your for the sake of hating. Your actions have brought this upon you, and now you, like so many other kids these days, you are trying to blame everyone else for your actions.

Suddenly, it's wrong for me to hate legits, suddenly, it's wrong to have an opinion on arrogant little fuckheads like you. Suddenly, I'm not allowed to say anything about legits, but they can say whatever they want about people using dupes!

Yeah, well. Since cheaters are already doing something wrong, and legits aren't... So yeah. You have to go further to prove innocent people guilty than people who are already guilty.

Thumbs up for you asshat.

Hahahaha! Oh man.. what did you just say?
Well.. it's original..

Sincere

Apr 2, 2003, 06:46 PM

I hate it when the simplest forms of discussion go over peoples' heads... even though it's funny as hell...

Not ONE peoson has been able to rival the points of KirinDave without resorting to name-calling or overexaggeration. "OMG I DUPE YOU THINK I'M A SATANIST BURN ME! PLZ!!!11". Damn, that was rich... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

LordCronai

Apr 2, 2003, 07:21 PM

On 2003-04-02 15:46, Sincere wrote:

Not ONE peoson has been able to rival the points of KirinDave without resorting to name-calling or overexaggeration. "OMG I DUPE YOU THINK I'M A SATANIST BURN ME! PLZ!!!11". Damn, that was rich... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

I think its funny as hell how you think everything we say is funny as hell.

http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=45931&forum=11&start=30

I personally debated there without doing what you mentioned. Then Phalanx steps in, I had had enough BS, and screwed trying to get a point across-I just fed you what you wanted.

TeamPhalanx

Apr 2, 2003, 09:37 PM

I do have a serious problem with backing character up - It's still cheating. In addition, it's also having an unfair advantage of sorts.

And, no, that's not that one argument. If you want to know what that one is well... I can't make that argument - I simply don't know enough. Go ask someone with a Masters or PhD in Sociology, and they can explain it better.

It's just a really complex argument to present, and I'm simply out of my league.

Anyway, no one can counter (cept that one thing I mentioned) a legit's argument because the other side doesn't have anything to build an argument on. You need facts, and there are none supporting the cheater's side.

Think about the case of backups. Why would you need a backup? In case I FSOD during the double save Why is there a double save? Well, because...

Zeebo

Apr 2, 2003, 09:49 PM

Zeebo...You make it sound like a person that dupes does not have to try. I know many people that dupe but get the items themselves, and they only give them to really close friends. and another thing... lvl 200 in 5 seconds...i dont think so, it took one of my hardcore friends 3 weeks to get to lvl 180. When the gameshark/action replay comes out with codes for pso, then you can complain.

NO!!! they dont give them to real close friends or themselves. 2/3rds of my game a duper/one who has duped items comes in and drops and bunch of items that are duped and just get in the way.... I ask legits only plz (title of game) duper comes in DUPED ITEMS HERE TOWN NEAR SHOP and not 1 not 2 like i said 2/3 of each game i create

and it still takes a short time for all those levels...

[ This Message was edited by: Zeebo on 2003-04-02 18:50 ]

Ranger_Larry

Apr 2, 2003, 10:20 PM

On 2003-04-02 11:11, TeamPhalanx wrote:
That's more of a societal view. eg//Most French pretty much had the "Um... So what?" view when it came to the matter.

In either case, in that case, the definition of cheating came down to one man - Bill Clinton.

In PSO's case, cheating is defined by the PSO Gods, SONIC TEAM. It's their game - They created the world in which we play in. The PSO Gods have made it clear that they do not like cheating, which is duping, making items via PC/cheat device, and harming other characters.

Banned items are a result of people making items. Double save & v1.1 is a result of duping. I don't think I need to support the statement that they don't like pk, nol, etc.

This has been a brief lecture on one of the facts that cheaters are blind of - Have a nice day.

Lying under oath is more than just a societal view http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif The most respected job in the world was taken advantage of for someones personal pleasure. (and thus, disrespected) The French didn't care? Does that matter? It's not their laws, nor their country. Hmm, Sonic Team are the GODS of PSO. Woohoo!! They're right up there with the U.S. Government and all of its laws in terms of importance! The President can lie but don't cheat on PSO?! lol Even IF he didn't break a law, he still cheated on his wife, did he not? Yet most of us turned the other cheak and accepted his untruthfulness. We can do that for a President, but not a game? THAT, my freinds, is WHACKED. Looking over your reply, it seems you are a Bill Clinton fan, are you? Put it this way. You want to marry a woman. You say to her. "I really hate when people cheat at games, but hey, if they want a little nookie' on the side, that's ok" I'm sure she would think your morals are really high! *rollseyes*

brillyfresh

Apr 3, 2003, 12:36 AM

On 2003-04-02 18:37, TeamPhalanx wrote:
And, no, that's not that one argument. If you want to know what that one is well... I can't make that argument - I simply don't know enough. Go ask someone with a Masters or PhD in Sociology, and they can explain it better.

It's just a really complex argument to present, and I'm simply out of my league.

can you explain it further? like how you would present it in the first place ... after all, those psych/soc/ethics classes i took in college weren't just to fill in credit hours ....

i'm not asking you to complete the argument, i simply want to know what it is

Elusive_Llama

Apr 3, 2003, 12:11 PM

Seems like legits and non-legits are becoming rival gangs or something.

This is why the rants forum exists.

I play with anybody who isn't a dumbass foul-mouthed n00b, which rules out 3/4 of Vega. Your 1337 equipment doesn't matter to me as long as you don't suck at PSO and you're not being an ass.

However, I am generous towards people who don't have uber equipment and suck at the game. We were all newbs once.

TeamPhalanx

Apr 3, 2003, 12:18 PM

I'm not qualified (not even close) but, since you ask, I'll just describe the foundation.

It has to do with how society evolves. In society (real) we as a people define what is good and what is evil. We as a group decide what is appropriate and what is not. Overall, there isn't a central power that controls how these things go by - Such forms of govenment died a while ago.

Now, take PSO. It is an online society. And its people, at least the majority, have said - We like cheating.

Well, hope you got what I mean. As I've said, a great of expertise is needed to strenghten the argument, but, if done right, it can be a powerful one, and one that I personally would have difficulty countering.

Going back to Clinton...

The issue here is whether or not he lied. It's all subjective. Okay, say I ask you "Are you good at Challenge mode?" Here, the problem lies in what is meant by "good." Does good just mean getting s-rank? Does it mean getting a ridiculous time of under 3 hours? What does it mean? It all depends.

In the same way, what is a sexual relationship? To Bill Clinton, it meant having sexual intercourse - Oral sex did not qualify. So, in essence, he did not lie.

Maijiita

Apr 3, 2003, 12:52 PM

This is where Maiku steps in! Dun dun dun!! I just sat there and read all five pages. Man, It's like a war out there. ::gets his battle gear on for any person the he comes against:: Ahem, I'm not here to side with any of you. Just to point out somethings...

"Legits"... Hmmm... Yes, You are honorable. You'll play the game through. And TRY your damn hardest to get that one item you've been looking for. I admire you for that. That's how a game truely should be played. and WON'T DUPE a character or an Item... But, You have to think about it from their point of view...

The "dupers"... Hmm.. What Can I say? You dupe items. But, What the legits have to realize. That You may spend DAYS upon DAYS to find that Item. Then you dupe it. Sure, it's cheating. But, dupers can be honerable as well. They may dupe a friend an item. It's just some dupers out there that dupe to get good things. I'd say 1/4th of them are just out there to take your stuff. Not all dupers are the bad guys....

It's like on AOL RP. There are the Elite and The Newbies. Then people like me. You see, the Elites will make fun of the Newbies because of the way they RP. Yet, Won't teach them. Thus, Causing the Newbies to defend themselves. Elites Are too god for them. The Legits are acting like you are superior to that of a duper. No one is superior to the other. Just try to understand it from their point of view. Before you go and burst a blood vessel. It helps to understand before you let the motor on the mouth go. You know?

Like said in a previous post... Legits go around talking down on dupers. But, no matter how bad a dupers pride (yes, every person takes pride in something.) is damaged. Do they walk around talking about legits. No. So, back off a little. Before you bite someones head off.

As for the dupers, There is not much to be said to them, Since the Legits are making the bigger matter of this then they. But, For any duper whom doesn't see the legits point of view. Should take the time to see it their way. YES! The legits are honorable! They take great pride in finding a certain item on their own. Saying they took the time to level up a character or took the time to find this item. But, the dupers whom TRY to give a legit a weapon just for something they want... Just to get over on them... with that in mind. Is poor taste.

So in conclusion, I stated my mind on this subject. I jumped around alot, Might not make sense. But I tried to take in what I read and make it into a post. Basically, What I'm saying. Is understand where one comes from before saying something. Hey! They may of found the Item on their own! Legit or Duper, You don't know. So before you get all ticked off. Examine and Find out. Works Wonders. ::nod nod::

Okay.. I think I'm done now.. ^.^;... See ya!

- Maiku

KirinDave

Apr 3, 2003, 01:53 PM

The "dupers"... Hmm.. What Can I say? You dupe items. But, What the legits have to realize. That You may spend DAYS upon DAYS to find that Item. Then you dupe it. Sure, it's cheating. But, dupers can be honerable as well. They may dupe a friend an item. It's ,just some dupers out there that dupe to get good things. I'd say 1/4th of them are just out there to take your stuff. Not all dupers are the bad guys....

And once the initial dupers give out the item, everyone else begins to dupe. And dupe the dupe. And dupe the dupe of the dupe. Finally there is a massive glut of these things. Double Cannons are a perfect example. Same with unsealed Jswords.

Sure, someone originally found the item or made the item. Those people earned it and maybe they didn't really mean for the duping to escalate out of control. However, most kids out there with their gear did not work at all for it. It was a gift of dupes from someone who endorses duping. They don't know where it is, or how to get it.

For instance, talk to your Jsword wielding friends about the sealed Jsword, see how much they know about it.

Just try to understand it from their point of view.

What, that they want lots of cool items without working for them, without considering the reprocussions of their actions, and without having any regard for other people?

Okay. Done.

Legits go around talking down on dupers. But, no matter how bad a dupers pride (yes, every person takes pride in something.) is damaged. Do they walk around talking about legits. No. So, back off a little. Before you bite someones head off.

Oh. You know those people who take drugs then compete in professional sports? We shouldn't be so hard on them. I mean, look at it from their point of view. They just want to be better than the atheletes who have more talent or drive than them without having to ante up to the table. How silly of me! Just see it from their point of view.

Just because you see their point of view doesn't make it right.

Besides, many dupe-users DO make fun of legit folks. I've had people join games and make fun of me for NOT USING A PSYCHO WAND OR SUMMIT MOON!

Oh wait my MST is too low because I've only eaten the 60 mind mats I've found, not the 200 I duped. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Well duh. Those items are hard to find. Eventually I'll get them, maybe. But I am not going to comprimise right now to get it.

But, the dupers whom TRY to give a legit a weapon just for something they want... Just to get over on them... with that in mind. Is poor taste.

Why would we give items to someone who's obviously involved in cheating? My friends and I have found some very nice items. For instance, we've got an angry fist all FOmar should drool over, with a 55 to a.beast and a 35 to hit! It turns my FOmar into a lean mean kung fu machine!

It's ours. If I were to trade it away:
1) How can I trust the item isn't duped when the person is already obviously in possession of dupes.
2) How could I give it to someone who might have it duped, this increasing the problem.
3) Legit items are worth more than flimsy ill-gotten copies, to me anyways. If I am trading something that me or my friends spent time and effort finding, should I really accept something that you got like crack off the street?

Basically, What I'm saying. Is understand where one comes from before saying something.

Sound advice, but it doesn't make the cheating any less cheating or the actions any less excusable.

Hey! They may of found the Item on their own! Legit or Duper, You don't know. So before you get all ticked off. Examine and Find out.

How can you know? Asking?
The simple fact is until you know someone well enough to trust them, you can't know if they're duping. Basically, you can't trade if you want to stay legit. It's really quite depressing, because now-a-days there is a trading screen and everything. Back in my DCv1 days.. oh man trading was a pain.

Maijiita

Apr 3, 2003, 02:07 PM

Kirin, You've proved me wrong there. Can't say nothing to defend or anything. But, please don't take me as a duper.. -.-;... I saw fit to say what was needed to say. And You proved points to my words that I overlooked. So, Thanks. On a side note, I'm not Duper or Legit. I'm Maiku, And I play the game for the fun of it and the Challenge. Sure, Getting a duped Item is sad... But... I wanna have fun. Not Argue. Which, I guess... I was just tring to get across.. Aheh...

Whelp, Kirin, I guess we all should just stay out of each anothers hairs. Makes life easier. Hah! You'd think by now there'd be a version for each type of player... Lol. That'd be crazy.

Balthor

Apr 3, 2003, 05:50 PM

Wow, this bullshit is still going.

My point has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

You guys are just thick headed heaters, bottom line.

And thanks for the compliments SuperDave or whoever the fuck you are. ^ ^

Ranger_Larry

Apr 3, 2003, 06:08 PM

Phalanx, the Clinton issue has 2 issues. Issue #1, I'd say to 99% of the people out there that oral is relations, if you know what I mean. I'm sure 99% of all husbands wives would be just thrilled to know that's all they got from the woman he cheated on her with. Yet, he was a popular president, (now I am really thinking you approve of him) so people looked past his shortcomings, tried to ignore them. That doesn't change the facts.

Issue #2, he CHEATED. (on his wife) Are we, or are we not, talking about CHEATING here? Again, his popularity did not drop because most of the country was biased FOR him, not against him. Is this behavior, legality aside, more dispicable than someone duping a J-Sword?

Whether you hate cheating on PSO or not, I really don't care about that. But you have repeatedly lumped all of us that dupe in with the real garbage of society. This is total nonsense. You have played with me several times, was I civilized? Heck, the first time you saw me I was using a spread needle, obviously you just had to know that was a dupe, right? (don't worry that angel harp was not a dupe, I have respect for you being legit) I didn't dupe on my own till about the last time we played. But I felt weird playing with you then, so I have not looked you up since, because I know how you feel about dupers from looking at this site.

Heck, all the stuff I ever got I didn't even ask for. People (couple PSO friends) saw me using junk, and just gave me the stuff. I play to have fun, and am having more fun with the dupes, that is all. I basically duped backups of all of my items onto "storage" memory cards, so if I corrupt it's just a matter of leveling. If I play with a legit person I do not try to belittle them, I use my legit equipment instead. What does it matter to them if I have Aura Field, Guld-Milla, ect. in the bank? However, 99% of the games you join people are not legit, so I don't bother changing. Funny thing is, the stuff I have found on my own I use on the most difficult levels anyway, because they are the most usefull. (yaz3000, frozen shooter)

Dupers are not "weak", or "evil". They just want to have fun in their own way. Some people like to use bow and arrows to hunt, some muzzle loaders, and some like to use the best equipment available. (high powered, scoped, centerfire rifles) Obviously legit players like to go into the woods and make their own bow and arrows. You can hunt on one hill, I'll hunt on the other with my .300 Weatherby Magnum. You may not like my .300 Weatherby, but I am not going to change for you. Nor do I mind that you don't like .300 Weatherbys, until you start getting on my case about being "evil", or "weak", or whatever. I dupe now, I have not played with you because I know you hate dupers. You were not harmed by this action. (gameplay wise) You have two choices. Look at the social aspect of the game and decide what is more important, people, or gameplay. I have not shut the door on you, I would use my legit stuff if you wanted to play. However, I have my doubts that I will be hearing from you again. (because your hatred of dupers is unwaivering) This story is basically my point, some people don't really seem to get what is important in life. Hating cheating is one thing, but getting personal about such a frivilous thing such as cheating on a video game makes me wonder....(another words,you don't bother to see if a person is nice, plays well, ect, all that matters in life is if they dupe or not?)

Zeebo

Apr 3, 2003, 06:50 PM

Legits go around talking down on dupers. But, no matter how bad a dupers pride (yes, every person takes pride in something.) is damaged. Do they walk around talking about legits. No. So, back off a little. Before you bite someones head off.

Err you gotta be kidding lots of dupers join my game even though title is legits only and go around showing off stealing exp and calling me weak because i dont have ************(12) star weapons...... They try to redicule and tease me for hours on end....

Wow, this bullshit is still going.

My point has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

You guys are just thick headed heaters, bottom line.

And thanks for the compliments SuperDave or whoever the fuck you are. ^ ^

OMG! you gotta be the most hated person in the world(by me) you call us thick head it yet you dont hear are part of the conversation.... You make remarks use profanity and state things which you have no facts to back up with.
How old are you anyway....

Heck, all the stuff I ever got I didn't even ask for. People (couple PSO friends) saw me using junk, and just gave me the stuff. I play to have fun, and am having more fun with the dupes, that is all. I basically duped backups of all of my items onto "storage" memory cards, so if I corrupt it's just a matter of leveling. If I play with a legit person I do not try to belittle them, I use my legit equipment instead. What does it matter to them if I have Aura Field, Guld-Milla, ect. in the bank? However, 99% of the games you join people are not legit, so I don't bother changing. Funny thing is, the stuff I have found on my own I use on the most difficult levels anyway, because they are the most usefull. (yaz3000, frozen shooter)

And I respect that... What i ment to say was i dont hate all dupers... Just jackasses... They show off their exp hog and then you expect me to like dupers not all dupers are like this i know but most that i have encountered are..... They stoubern like someone on this forum wont mention any names.... I wont go on or ill just be repeating my self but the point is clear...

TeamPhalanx

Apr 3, 2003, 07:38 PM

On the Clinton issue...

Do I think he had a sexual relationship? Yes. But, that doesn't matter. Only how he defines a sexual relationship matters. After all, he was asked whether or not he had a sexual relation, not whether or not he engaged in oral sex.

Majority of people cheat on their partners - That's reality. It is an issue between the couple. Senator Clinton forgave him; that's all that counts.

Okay, on the duping issue, time to bring in the heavy artillery...

Here's are some facts:

1) Way back during the planning stages of GC PSO, SONIC TEAM planned on cross-platform play. The idea was that DC and GC users would be able to interact, with each version having its own exclusive rares. This plan was axed because Yuji Naka didn't want GC users exposed a game with tons of cheaters (That was close to an exact quote)

2) In preparation for GC PSO, I obtained an import GC and (obviously) imported PSO. (I'm sure many others did this as well) Later on, I found out that my import version will become useless since the servers will be separated.

3) People who obtained their s-ranks early on got banned for a day.

Now, let's review the basic who, what, where, and why.

Who caused all this? (who violated the agreement?)

What were the consequences?

Where did it all start?

Why did ST implement/cancle such plans?

As I've said before, it's futile to argue pro-cheat, because you can't. You've got every fact out there going against you.

Zeebo

Apr 3, 2003, 07:48 PM

As I've said before, it's futile to argue pro-cheat, because you can't. You've got every fact out there going against you.

He's good.... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Err... everytime phalanx talks, I need a dictionary...

[ This Message was edited by: Zeebo on 2003-04-03 16:53 ]

-Eden-

Apr 3, 2003, 09:29 PM

Sorry I just have to note how comical this is, for me to stumble into this forum and find a 6 page debate about cheating and (oddly enough) the Clinton scandal.

Anyway, this is my bottemline on cheating.

I've heard the major arguements of why people dup, and I hope I can lay them all out. So far, this is what they entail....

Why should I work to get a(n) [insert uber rare item here] for over 100+ hours, and maybe never get it at all when I do work for 100+ hours?

The defenition of a rare item, is that it comes infrequently. Some items are supposed to be completely unique so that maybe only one or two people were meant to find them... This also boosts the risks of trading items to make the game more interesting. Trading in PSO is almost like a mini-game to me.

Hey, I got FSOD/BSOD and had my charecter file corrupted and lost my [Insert uber 1337 item here] so if Sega cheats me of my time, I'll cheat PSO to get back what was mine!

I've gotten FSOD, and I got BSOD all the time when my PSO disk was defect. So, I sent it back to Sega and got a new one for free. This has completely fixed my BSOD problems. When I did get FSOD, I'll I lost was easily replacible field items because of my BSOD experiences, I knew that its not wise to carry more than two unequipped rares on your charecter. Besides, didn't Sega's EULA specifically state that they weren't responsible for any damages that may happen when you play PSO (yeah I actually read some of it, lol). Anyway, this issue also boils down to responsibility. Your responsible of your belongings, and since you can only get FSOD when traveling through ships/blocks/lobbies and entering/leaving games its not hard to avoid critical item losses by actually keeping some of your stuff in the check room to avoid losing them. And if your still pissed at Sega then contact me about the FSOD/Corruption Support group that is run under another forum I belong to called Phantasy Bar online. They can replace (nearly) all lost rares. You also might find it suprising (well not really) that people will scam getting FSOD to "replace"
items they never had.

I bought PSO with my money, and I'll do what I want!

Offline PSO is your game. Online PSO is our game. You play with other people, therefore have manners. Duping/cheating corrupts the economy of PSO and ruins trade (I've seen this first hand... if you want to see it too, go to Vega). I've never seen a person announce that they trade duped items so its kinda difficult to avoid them. Besides, so many items have leaked into the most solid of legitimate trading rings that no one can keep track of whats duped or not.

Final notes: I'm glad that all kinds of people have joined PSO World. It makes for a very interesting debate. Whats unfortunate is that it seems that people are stereotyping legitimate players as elitist a'holes. I'm legitimate, buts its not like I have to beat it into people. I don't support cheating/duping and no one can justify cheating in PSO, but I don't beat my opinion into people online.

*Roots for Kirin, Go common sense go! You can do it!*

[ This Message was edited by: -Eden- on 2003-04-03 18:40 ]

Zeebo

Apr 3, 2003, 09:39 PM

ahh another good debater thats legit

Ranger_Larry

Apr 3, 2003, 10:16 PM

On 2003-04-03 16:38, TeamPhalanx wrote:
On the Clinton issue...

Do I think he had a sexual relationship? Yes. But, that doesn't matter. Only how he defines a sexual relationship matters. After all, he was asked whether or not he had a sexual relation, not whether or not he engaged in oral sex.

Majority of people cheat on their partners - That's reality. It is an issue between the couple. Senator Clinton forgave him; that's all that counts.

Okay, on the duping issue, time to bring in the heavy artillery...

Here's are some facts:

1) Way back during the planning stages of GC PSO, SONIC TEAM planned on cross-platform play. The idea was that DC and GC users would be able to interact, with each version having its own exclusive rares. This plan was axed because Yuji Naka didn't want GC users exposed a game with tons of cheaters (That was close to an exact quote)

2) In preparation for GC PSO, I obtained an import GC and (obviously) imported PSO. (I'm sure many others did this as well) Later on, I found out that my import version will become useless since the servers will be separated.

3) People who obtained their s-ranks early on got banned for a day.

Now, let's review the basic who, what, where, and why.

Who caused all this? (who violated the agreement?)

What were the consequences?

Where did it all start?

Why did ST implement/cancle such plans?

As I've said before, it's futile to argue pro-cheat, because you can't. You've got every fact out there going against you.

Good...good....(NOT) If I cheat on my game, that is an issue for me, not for you. (duping that is, PK and CK are another story) I find it quite ammusing that you take this issue so importantly. It's also futile to argue with a brick wall. Your heavy artillery looks about as awesome as the Iraqi Armys artillery.

You do realize that Sega deleted items from your inventory even before all of the cheating started on DC PSO ver1, don't you? The way I see it, they took something that was mine. I see that their game is pretty good, but it has flaws. I am simply correcting them. Oh yeah, and since I can dupe all of these problems you have described above do not affect me. Who cares about DC anymore, and XBOX simply is going to run on a closed network anyway. (so that would have never been compatible with the GC ver.)

Cheating has been rampant on PC games for ages, so MS's security measures for XBOX LIVE would have been in place anyways....so the cross platform compatibility doesn't really matter either. PSO is a cooperative game, so the cheating doesn't really apply like it does in other games. (like being invincable in Alien Front Online and racking up huge scores) It is up to Sega to make a game that can't be cheated on. Until they do that there will always be people that do. If other people are going to do it, than I am going to do it too. Most games I don't cheat on, but PSO just begs for it.

Ranger_Larry

Apr 3, 2003, 10:23 PM

Eded: I have gotten FSOD while in the middle of a level. Gooday.

Zeebo

Apr 3, 2003, 10:23 PM

The way I see it, they took something that was mine. I see that their game is pretty good, but it has flaws. I am simply correcting them

2 wrongs don't make it right...

Ranger_Larry

Apr 3, 2003, 10:29 PM

Cry me a river.

-Eden-

Apr 3, 2003, 10:30 PM

If I cheat on my game, that is an issue for me, not for you.

Please read my post Larry, I already covered that.

If other people are going to do it, than I am going to do it too. Most games I don't cheat on, but PSO just begs for it.

Are you so weak willed as to conform with something that is so morally deplorable? I had to double-take that post. I couldn't believe what I was reading. If you did get FSOD during the middle of a game then thats very unfortunate, and through a group I'm associated with, your items could be replaced. But damages to your charecter give you no right to "rise" above the rules of PSO.

Zeebo

Apr 3, 2003, 10:54 PM

Cry me a river.

why do you have to act up just cause i proved you wrong...

If other people are going to do it, than I am going to do it too. Most games I don't cheat on, but PSO just begs for it.

OH GOD CAN THAT BE ANY MORE STUPIDLY SAID!

Ranger_Larry

Apr 3, 2003, 11:02 PM

OMG I CAN TYPE IN ALL CAPS! PSO begs to be cheated on because of its technical flaws. Also the fact that the rare drop rate is just plain anal. Are you going to spend 10,000 hours of your life finding all of the rares you want? lol

Zeebo

Apr 3, 2003, 11:07 PM

Are you going to spend 10,000 hours of your life finding all of the rares you want? lol

10,000 hahaha exacduration.... and yes i would because im not a ... Not gona finish the sentance...
Either way no games ask to be duped/hacked like many people said like phalanx and others games were maid to be played fair.... they atempt for people not to cheat but everyone makes mistakes and well.... Lord your an ignorant duper/cheater which ever just like balthor or whatever...

-Eden-

Apr 3, 2003, 11:21 PM

Both of the points you are arguing, Larry, I explained in a reply that is less than 6 posts from your last. Go back a page and read my response, or hell, I'll just post it again if everyone went over it.

brillyfresh

Apr 3, 2003, 11:26 PM

On 2003-04-03 09:18, TeamPhalanx wrote:
I'm not qualified (not even close) but, since you ask, I'll just describe the foundation.

It has to do with how society evolves. In society (real) we as a people define what is good and what is evil. We as a group decide what is appropriate and what is not. Overall, there isn't a central power that controls how these things go by - Such forms of govenment died a while ago.

Now, take PSO. It is an online society. And its people, at least the majority, have said - We like cheating.

Well, hope you got what I mean. As I've said, a great of expertise is needed to strenghten the argument, but, if done right, it can be a powerful one, and one that I personally would have difficulty countering.

i don't see the argument here, although it sounds like something along the lines of ethical relativism maybe, or that the people of PSO, being the consumers and supporters of the PSO society, have a right to be autonomous

i'm lost http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

LamerPanda

Apr 4, 2003, 12:42 AM

OMG I CAN TYPE IN ALL CAPS!

Generally, when involved in an argument it's considered bad form to attack the grammatical structure of someone's post. It's much better to go after the flaws in their logic; there's a difference between supporting your point and pestering the person opposing you.

PSO begs to be cheated on because of its technical flaws.

Every game has flaws. O_o That doesn't mean they "beg to be cheated on".

Also the fact that the rare drop rate is just plain anal. Are you going to spend 10,000 hours of your life finding all of the rares you want?

No, you're supposed to trade for them. A major part of online games is trading to get the things you want; if you try to do it on your own, you'll get bored. Wow.

If you're going to cheat, don't ruin it for the people who don't.

KirinDave

Apr 4, 2003, 02:00 AM

On 2003-04-03 20:02, Ranger_Larry wrote:
PSO begs to be cheated on because of its technical flaws. Also the fact that the rare drop rate is just plain anal. Are you going to spend 10,000 hours of your life finding all of the rares you want? lol

And what, Mr. Ranger_Larry, do you know about its technical flaws. Do you have ANY idea about the issues behind the dupe problem and why Sonic Team cannot, in a billion years, do a damn thing about it with the current setup?

I am sick to death of 13 year old kids who's technical experitice is limited to basic windows 101 and Starcraft making generalizations about how poorly coded and designed PSO is, and how as a result people should exploit the system to somehow teach Sonic Team a lesson.

The reason Sonic Team cannot stop coding is because they have an offline mode in which characters can me migrated to online mode. If this were not the case, they could store your character data online (which is cheap in our day and age) like Blizzard did. Suddenly, it because much, much more difficult to dupe and hack.

But because so many people can't get online they had to have an offline mode, and because so many offline people wouldn't stand for a separation of characters, they made a migration. With a gameshark or debug kit, people can arbitrarily modify characters, so it's utterly impossible to stop hacking.

And, kids, don't throw this unique item ID solution at people. Tagging each item would not solve it. Hashing each item would not solve it. Whatever you do offline, someone sufficiently clever can figure it out. Now if online characters were only online, it'd be a different story... I'm pretty qualified in this subject, having a degree in computer science.

It's just not doable given the goals that Sonic Team has.

Given that, PSO isn't begging to cheat. It's begging not to be cheated on. It's a nice friend who you can take advantage of easily, and they pretend it doesn't happen. This doesn't mean you should grind your boot on their face.

Sheesh, some people just have no sense of dignity at all.

Maijiita

Apr 4, 2003, 07:18 AM

Hahahahahaha!! I got it! What if you get a weapon you already have from the same monster you got it from, but, The values where the same as the weapon you already have. (Not Grinded) Ahem, In a sense, You just got a duped item!

But, people can't dupe items! Hahaha... It's the computer being fooled into the dupe. Man, I'm soooo smart... SO!! You are just getting dupe Items no matter how you look at it. Hahahahaha!!! YOU WERE ALL FOOLED!!! Mwa ha ha!!!

Erh... ::cough:: ... ... Yeah, I'm kinda hyper this mornin'... Think I'm gonna go run around outside for a while. WWWHHHHEEE!! ::Zoom, all Freakazoid style:: SSSSSSSSSSSWWWWWWWWWWWWWWSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!! !

TeamPhalanx

Apr 4, 2003, 07:27 AM

On 2003-04-03 19:16, Ranger_Larry wrote:...If I cheat on my game, that is an issue for me, not for you...

You're not seeing the point here. Your cheating affects me. And, again, where are your facts?

I stated facts that said that cheating affect other players in very harmful ways. I even listed the out in numbers. And yet you choose to completely deny those facts, saying that it's not an issue for me.

Guess what, if something affects me in a negative way, it's an issue for me.

In the end, you're just another cheater who is in complete denial.

I advise you to just quit now for you've already lost, because your points, just like every other "argument" I've heard from cheaters, are vapid. They are w/o substance and cannot be backed up. The only things that's to be settled now is the degree of defeat; that is, how badly you'll lose.

You cannot win an argument w/o facts.

TeamPhalanx

Apr 4, 2003, 07:40 AM

On 2003-04-03 20:26, brillyfresh wrote:
...i'm lost http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

It has nothing to do with ethics - Since one does not have the right to cheat, you can't make establish a pro-cheat argument via ethics. And you're not the only one that's lost. I saw this argument being used (non-PSO) once and I was speechless in how to counter it.

Anyway, I doubt anyone here knows enough to actually build it and present it, so it's not something I'll have to worry about.

DemonQueen

Apr 4, 2003, 11:35 AM

i dont pay sega $ for em 2 sit bak and laugh at people wasting time then fsodx cuz they want people 2 play more since think of it this way, u play 400 hours and fsodx u were about 2 quit pso cuz u got bored now u gotta start over and they keep $$$ rollin in sega is mean and shuld get the musolini treatment imo lol i kno greed wen i see it so i think that they deserve whatever they get its segas fault not dupers! i dont blame dupers they r cautious lol! only way 2 back up 50% of wut u had
since u cant backup lvls

DemonQueen

Apr 4, 2003, 11:42 AM

i dont think people who rig there lvl shuld get away wit it thats so wrong lol
teamphlanx baby have u ever played diablo 2? cuz at least blizzard tryed 2 fix dupeing problems and cheaters by patching shit and makin dupes dissapear. if sega doesnt inforce there own laws why would every1 be a goody goody in the community. if it wusnt againt the law 2 rob bankz in the real world wouldnt u do it? i sure as hell would free money! lol
legits i respect because the have beliefs and stick by them. hell ima duper but i dont ruin the economy because itll hurt me in the future i do it as reinsurance that i wont get skrewed over by segas lazyness, u kno wat i think, segas delaying xbox release 2 fix any types of corruption and freezing is that fair for us GC'erz? NO! lol just a thought

[ This Message was edited by: DemonQueen on 2003-04-04 08:44 ]

TeamPhalanx

Apr 4, 2003, 11:48 AM

Uh... Eh? Try using proper grammar and such. Not only is it proper english, but it also helps people understand what you're trying to say.

KirinDave

Apr 4, 2003, 02:33 PM

On 2003-04-04 08:42, DemonQueen wrote:
i dont think people who rig there lvl shuld get away wit it thats so wrong lol
teamphlanx baby have u ever played diablo 2? cuz at least blizzard tryed 2 fix dupeing problems and cheaters by patching shit and makin dupes dissapear. if sega doesnt inforce there own laws why would every1 be a goody goody in the community.

Please read my previous rant about this. You have no idea what you're talking about. Further, Sonic Team is doing what you say. The double save has gone a long way towards helping to limit duping.

-Eden-

Apr 4, 2003, 04:38 PM

Sega has been fantastic in resolving any problem that was within their power to resolve. They shipped me an entirely new GC PSO disk because I kept getting BSOD. If that isn't service then you tell me what is. And I'm going to repeat my previous post because it seems that some missed it.

-Eden-

Apr 4, 2003, 04:45 PM

I replaced my rationalizations with direct quotes from Larry. Thanks for supporting this arguement Larry! ^__^

Posted: 2003-04-03 20:02 by Ranger_Larry

Also the fact that the rare drop rate is just plain anal. Are you going to spend 10,000 hours of your life finding all of the rares you want? lol

The defenition of a rare item, is that it comes infrequently. Some items are supposed to be completely unique so that maybe only one or two people were meant to find them... This also boosts the risks of trading items to make the game more interesting. Trading in PSO is almost like a mini-game to me.

Hey, I got FSOD/BSOD and had my charecter file corrupted and lost my [Insert uber 1337 item here] so if Sega cheats me of my time, I'll cheat PSO to get back what was mine!

I've gotten FSOD, and I got BSOD all the time when my PSO disk was defect. So, I sent it back to Sega and got a new one for free. This has completely fixed my BSOD problems. When I did get FSOD, I'll I lost was easily replacible field items because of my BSOD experiences, I knew that its not wise to carry more than two unequipped rares on your charecter. Besides, didn't Sega's EULA specifically state that they weren't responsible for any damages that may happen when you play PSO (yeah I actually read some of it, lol). Anyway, this issue also boils down to responsibility. Your responsible of your belongings, and since you can only get FSOD when traveling through ships/blocks/lobbies and entering/leaving games its not hard to avoid critical item losses by actually keeping some of your stuff in the check room to avoid losing them. And if your still pissed at Sega then contact me about the FSOD/Corruption Support group that is run under another forum I belong to called Phantasy Bar online. They can replace (nearly) all lost rares. You also might find it suprising (well not really) that people will scam getting FSOD to "replace"
items they never had.

On 2003-04-03 19:16, Ranger_Larry wrote:

..If I cheat on my game, that is an issue for me, not for you...

Offline PSO is your game. Online PSO is our game. You play with other people, therefore have manners. Duping/cheating corrupts the economy of PSO and ruins trade (I've seen this first hand... if you want to see it too, go to Vega). I've never seen a person announce that they trade duped items so its kinda difficult to avoid them. Besides, so many items have leaked into the most solid of legitimate trading rings that no one can keep track of whats duped or not.

Addition: And it is certainly an issue for more than just us PSO players. Anyone here from the old DC PSO? Anyone remembered what happened on the DC? PSO's corruption on the dreamcast is the reason why I'm legit on the GC in the first place. The servers were burderned with malicious codes developed by cheat devices (I can't directly back this with my knowledge of the PSO servers, but I did hear this from someone who has worked with game servers). This caused more server down time and more problems for the entire PSO community.

[ This Message was edited by: -Eden- on 2003-04-04 13:51 ]

brillyfresh

Apr 4, 2003, 04:58 PM

On 2003-04-04 04:40, TeamPhalanx wrote:
It has nothing to do with ethics - Since one does not have the right to cheat, you can't make establish a pro-cheat argument via ethics. And you're not the only one that's lost. I saw this argument being used (non-PSO) once and I was speechless in how to counter it.

now if one does not have the right to cheat, what exactly keeps them from doing it anyway, since it's obvious that so many people cheat? what is being done about them? punishment? punishment is only truly effective when it is immediate, consistent, and severe, and from what appears to be happening online now, that certainly is not the case

i think ethics has a lot to do with it, especially normative ethics, but the argument that can be presented is more an argument about culture and society ... i am interested in what the topic of that argument was and where you found it, because you have certainly piqued my interest, and although the way you presented it was very vague, i would like to look further into it

and to put things simply, the trading economy, and just about every other aspect of online cheating on the GC PSO so far, has ultimately been left up to the individual user, don't blame a cheater for all the woes of online playing, because that conclusion is too absolute and narrow-minded ...

if you're legit, trade legit by not trading your items for obvious dupes, and play legit if you want by playing only with other legit players

and for both legits and cheaters, above all, be respectful and courteous, because when you reduce everything to basics, the people you play with are doing just the same thing that you're doing .... playing a game ... to have fun ... so if you're having fun and everyone else is too, let it be and put that dead horse to rest http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Ranger_Larry

Apr 4, 2003, 06:27 PM

On 2003-04-04 04:27, TeamPhalanx wrote:

On 2003-04-03 19:16, Ranger_Larry wrote:...If I cheat on my game, that is an issue for me, not for you...

You're not seeing the point here. Your cheating affects me. And, again, where are your facts?

I stated facts that said that cheating affect other players in very harmful ways. I even listed the out in numbers. And yet you choose to completely deny those facts, saying that it's not an issue for me.

Guess what, if something affects me in a negative way, it's an issue for me.

In the end, you're just another cheater who is in complete denial.

I advise you to just quit now for you've already lost, because your points, just like every other "argument" I've heard from cheaters, are vapid. They are w/o substance and cannot be backed up. The only things that's to be settled now is the degree of defeat; that is, how badly you'll lose.

You cannot win an argument w/o facts.

Tell me exactly how my duping has hurt you. Now tell me exactly how much your addiction to PSO has hurt you.

I've lost what? My addiction to PSO? Yes. No more wasting hours away running through the various levels of the game looking for "electronic treasure". Now I go online, goof off with a few friends, level a little, and quit. You legits that argue so vehemently against dupers are the ones that should go seek help.

Now ,if someone were breaking into houses and stealing stuff on my street, I'd be downright militant about it. If someone is cheating on my online video game in a way that doesn't really hurt me, I may become somewhat annoyed, at most. (don't even try to compare duping to PK, CK, NOL, ect.)

I've been arguing about this subject for about maybe, 2 or 3 days now? It's already getting very stale, and very old. The two sides will never agree. However, let us consider the reaction of real world people that do not even play video games, shall we? Ok, this guy here is a model citizen. Never in trouble with the law, never steals, abused people, ect. Will go out of his way to help you. But wait....he cheats on a video game! Oh man! Lock him up! (sarcasm in case you aren't intelligent enough to notice)

To be blunt, all of you cheater/duper bashers are a bit on the anal side. All you do every day is come on here and look for posts to "rip apart". No matter how logical my post may be, you will find little errors, ignore key points in it, and bend the truth in your favor. The same old yes/no right/wrong SIMPLETON arguements every day. I've played games legitly and beaten them, and I've cheated at games and beaten them. I've started games legitly, and never finished them. I've cheated at games and the games were so bad I didn't even feel like wasting the time to finish them regardless. I've been on both sides of the fence. Example, I think I have seen the comparison between dupers and athletes that take steriods. How retarded can you be? I've lifted weights (still do) and every man that has ever done that has probably dreamed of being way bigger than he can realistically get. Well, I won't even use Creatine. For a variety of reasons. You see, this is the REAL world. Things have consequences here. I am not like you people that can't make the distinction between your little digital PSO world and the real world. You people are the ones that "don't get it", and to most people out there, you look extremely ridiculous, sitting here arguing about how dupers have ruined your life somehow, whilst people are out there in the real world dealing with life and death situations. This is my last post about this subject. Unlike you, I have better things to do with my life than sit here and argue to brick walls. I will end with this quote. "Who is the bigger fool? The fool, or the person that argues with him?" HHHMMMMMMMMMM.........

TeamPhalanx

Apr 4, 2003, 06:40 PM

You cheated, and I've already listed how cheating has effected the game.

Your 'argument' of "I'm not hurting anyone" has been used before - And it failed. Ask some one like W. He is one of the few that actually woke up realized that cheating hurts the game, and stopped.

You have no argument, for you have no facts. You cannot make an argument w/o facts - It's downright pitiful to even attempt to do so. So just quit while you're already behind and stop humiliating yourself.

Aurra

Apr 4, 2003, 07:09 PM

On 2003-04-04 15:40, TeamPhalanx wrote:
So just quit while you're already behind and stop humiliating yourself.

He doesn't seem very humiliated to me. You, Phalanx, have talked about people realizing that cheating hurts the game and have stopped doing so. I think this guy has been the first one to realize that this lame ass topic is doing no good and has thus stopped replying ^_^
On the issue at hand, however, I... guess I agree with your and KirinDave's opinion. I'm certainly more pro-legit than pro-cheater, but perhaps we could all lighten up a little.

Ranger_Larry

Apr 4, 2003, 07:11 PM

Eh. I didn't give much dupes out up until now. I basically did it for myself, and returned the stuff that was given to me. Your stupidity actually makes me want to go dupe a few hundred 11-12 star items and hand them out.

The whole point I was trying to make was that it is moronic to group "dupers" with serial rapists, thieves, murderers, and the like. Whether it was "right", or "wrong" was never my concern. It's all a matter of perspective. You ignore all of those points that I make (about looking at this subject in the context of where it fits in someones life) and comeback with "you cheat, therefore you are wrong" or some other bullshit that basically says the same thing.

Your whole arguement is always that duping "hurts" you. I am trying to get the point across that it doesn't really hurt you that much. It's akin to someone bouncing a ball on the street in front of my house. The sound may "annoy" me, but it doesn't really "hurt" me. Go ahead, ignore these last two paragraphs. You only see what you want to see.

Nice job saying I was "humiliating myself". That was about the only thing that made me want to reply. I had to respond to that. YOU, are the one that doesn't get it. YOU, are the one that looks like a whiney, spoiled little brat that doesn't want people ruining his/her precious little game. All people are doing is duping. There is no PK, CK, NOL ect going on. Those things affect you in a big kind of way. (as far as the GAME goes, that is) On DC I duped some too. That wasn't what got your character NOLed or whatever. Those were sick little bastards running around trying to make everyone miserable. I was, and never will be one of those kind of cheaters, and my "cheating" is confined to video games, and video games only. Get a clue, Phalanx.

[ This Message was edited by: Ranger_Larry on 2003-04-04 16:14 ]

Sincere

Apr 4, 2003, 09:21 PM

Hmmm... if people know that cheating annoys people, and dupers want to continue duping and using rares, why not just cheat offline?

*gasp*

Oh, wait, that would defeat the whole concept of duping in the first place: to show off your rares to people and 'bellitle' those who don't have what you do. Meh.

TeamPhalanx

Apr 4, 2003, 09:22 PM

You're trying to argument something having any facts what so ever. That's downright pathetic. So get a clue.

Seeing as how I wasted real $ on importing, only to have the whole thing be worth 0 because of cheating, I'd say I have valid issues. Of course, that fact, along with the others, are ones that you are completely blind to, even though people here have made it clear what the issues are.

Yeah... all the people are duping is cheating... How... kind of you. I mean, what the hell is wrong with ruining the game for others?

Zeebo

Apr 4, 2003, 09:29 PM

All people are doing is duping. There is no PK, CK, NOL ect going on

As I recall, it started duping and it went on to those evil things...

[ This Message was edited by: Zeebo on 2003-04-04 18:31 ]

LordCronai

Apr 4, 2003, 10:03 PM

I've had an interesting week.
A few days ago I was withdrawing stuff out of the bank, when while it was saving it froze up on me. Not surprisingly, I got my first corruption. I tried everything I could and asked for every method around to get my characters back, but no luck.
A day or two before this point I considered trying out going legit because of KirinDave's well thought out side of the argument, and now that all my dupes were gone, it seemed like the perfect time to try. Several people helped me get on the right track, and now I don't use dupes online or trade dupes anywhere. I suppose that doesn't make me 100% legit in Phalanx's book (Oh no! =P), but I'm satisfied with where I stand now.
I suggest some of you try being legit. If not for the good of the community, just do it for your amusement, as it kind of renews PSO. Trust me, when you've got everything you ever wanted equipped, you'll be bored too.

Zeebo

Apr 4, 2003, 10:07 PM

YEY! Welcome to the good side!

Guile

Apr 5, 2003, 12:15 AM

On 2003-04-04 18:22, TeamPhalanx wrote:

Yeah... all the people are duping is cheating... How... kind of you. I mean, what the hell is wrong with ruining the game for others?

The fact is some people don't believe it is ruining the game, that is why there are people duping out there and that is why there are people using the dupes

TeamPhalanx

Apr 5, 2003, 06:28 AM

That's what is so stupid.

I mean, people here have outright listed the consequences of cheating. It's right there. In addition, we've pointed out that it is there. How the hell can anyone miss that? Do we have to put some huge sign that says "READ THIS?"

LordCronai

Apr 5, 2003, 11:40 AM

The thing is, its not whether you're right or not (which you undoubtedly are), its whether we *care* or not. For myself, I just like to argue, so I continue trying to debate a lost cause. Its entertaining ^_^

Zeebo

Apr 5, 2003, 12:05 PM

^ you make me sick! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

LordCronai

Apr 5, 2003, 12:19 PM

Hehe, you're not the first http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

-Eden-

Apr 5, 2003, 03:34 PM

lmao, I do it for the same reasons. I get a kick out of debating like this. Although I don't know if dupers get the point that there NOT SUPPOSED to find all the rares that they want.

Aurra

Apr 5, 2003, 04:58 PM

Cronai, your sig is hilarious XD

LordCronai

Apr 5, 2003, 06:19 PM

On 2003-04-05 13:58, Aurra wrote:
Cronai, your sig is hilarious XD

Yeah, I thought it was pretty great too. Its a legit signature (I made it myself, not duped!) http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

TeamPhalanx

Apr 5, 2003, 06:42 PM

Yes... I'm real surprised by that.

Sick... not really. Pretty stupid if you ask me. I mean, you'd figure a person that likes to debate would actually be good at it.

Ranger_Larry

Apr 5, 2003, 07:16 PM

On 2003-04-04 18:22, TeamPhalanx wrote:
You're trying to argument something having any facts what so ever. That's downright pathetic. So get a clue.

Seeing as how I wasted real $ on importing, only to have the whole thing be worth 0 because of cheating, I'd say I have valid issues. Of course, that fact, along with the others, are ones that you are completely blind to, even though people here have made it clear what the issues are.

Yeah... all the people are duping is cheating... How... kind of you. I mean, what the hell is wrong with ruining the game for others?

Hmmm, on my PSO box it says "For sale, rental and use only in the USA, Canada, Mexico, and Latin America." You do realize companies, Sega included, do NOT want you importing games made for distribution in other countries, don't you? You have no warranty either, do you? You should have thought about that before you imported. You couldn't just WAIT for the game to come out over here like most of us did? You are cheating as well in my book, you got a headstart over the rest of us! I thought you were so perfect?

[ This Message was edited by: Ranger_Larry on 2003-04-05 16:17 ]

-Eden-

Apr 5, 2003, 08:06 PM

Ooo, Ranger Larry is back and changing topics I see. Well, her descion was to pay more money to play earlier via importing. Although she does get a headstart, she has to get a Japanese or illegally modified gamecube which in itself costs alot. She put up all that hassle and cash to play earlier, but her being an extra 30-40 levels over me doesn't change the fact that I can't trade my legit found rares with people who are spoiled on duped rares, DOES it, Ranger_Larry?

Her descion affects her wallet more than it affects the value of fun that I have in PSO. So, I think I can let her importing habits slide.

Besides, I'd say your book on cheating must be skewed to support duping.

[ This Message was edited by: -Eden- on 2003-04-05 17:08 ]

Ranger_Larry

Apr 5, 2003, 08:30 PM

Oh, an ILLEGALLY modified Gamecube. Wow, and you people are complaining about dupers? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, lol. Also, you aren't suppossed to import games, BIG DADDY SEGA does not want you doing this. If you were a real legit you would be playing the game on a legit GC, with a legit copy of the game. (not one that is only suppossed to be used in Asia)

[ This Message was edited by: Ranger_Larry on 2003-04-05 17:32 ]

-Eden-

Apr 5, 2003, 08:45 PM

You missed my point Larry. Your cheating affects all of us. Her importing games only puts more money into Sega and the respective shipping company. Which doesn't nessecarily hurt anyone. However, your cheating affects me as well as many others, unlike her importing descions.

I'm all ears if you, Larry, can explain how her importing HURTs Sega, if so, I wouldn't give her much credit in this converation.

Wow, and you people are complaining about dupers? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, lol

"You people"
Only one person is importing, stay focused buddy, unless you have double-vision, and if you do I sincerely apologize.

[ This Message was edited by: -Eden- on 2003-04-05 17:52 ]

LordCronai

Apr 5, 2003, 09:49 PM

On 2003-04-02 11:41, ABDUR101 wrote:
Argue and debate all you want, but personal insults have no place.

On 2003-04-05 15:42, TeamPhalanx wrote:
Pretty stupid if you ask me. I mean, you'd figure a person that likes to debate would actually be good at it.

How mean!
Not to mention you shouldn't be talking...I don't see anyone complimenting your amazing skills of repeating your previous post over and over.

Link2432

Apr 5, 2003, 10:02 PM

WTF Do you think is wrong with dupers? I mean, alot of dupers i meet are nice. They are not totally evil people bent on ruining your gaming experience, they are just people who arent happy with their character, who doesnt find anything (YELLOWBOZE ME) and is just bored. They just wanna do something new.

TeamPhalanx

Apr 5, 2003, 10:04 PM

That's because I state facts. You know, those things that really help one's argument. All your kind do is... Well, I know what the heck you do. You don't even post valid argument, but rather some jibberish that has little or nothing to do with the issue at hand.

You may want to take the time to explain why SEGA doesn't just set regional settings, so people outside of Japan cannot access the servers; this is something that can be done quite easily on SEGA's part.

Moving on, why doesn't Nintendo target modded system? Nintendo is known for going after product if they don't like it. It's like how MS shut down modded X-Boxes - Ninendo could just as easily do the same. Yet, they don't. For that matter, a company bigger than MS, SONY, doesn't go after modded PS2 either. And, as we all know from bleem, if they target you, you're sunk.

So, please do explain all that.

(For those more familiar with import laws, yes, I am aware of the fact that I can easily kill this fool's statement by taking that approach, but, it's just fun this way)

Btw, I already know that you can't. And guess what, anything you throw at me I can easily shut down. Because we're both consistant in our methods. I make a statement and support it with evidence, while you do not. So, keep grasping for straws all you want.

And, if you want another example, try tackling the cross-platform play that wasn't. You know, the one that was canceled because of cheating. I'm sure you'll come up with a clever one there - Probably something that goes like "I know more about the DC and GC and know for a fact that such a thing isn't possible" (side note: That's the most common 'argument' I hear on the issue)

[ This Message was edited by: TeamPhalanx on 2003-04-05 19:06 ]

Link2432

Apr 5, 2003, 10:10 PM

Pah, you can shut down anything, dont you mean SHOOT DOWN? OOOOOO SHOT DOWN! Oh, and btw, i ordered a USB memory card to dupe, so your gonna have to start hating me too phalanx

[ This Message was edited by: Link2432 on 2003-04-05 19:12 ]

LordCronai

Apr 5, 2003, 10:16 PM

On 2003-04-05 19:04, TeamPhalanx wrote:
That's because I state facts. You know, those things that really help one's argument. All your kind do is... Well, I know what the heck you do. You don't even post valid argument, but rather some jibberish that has little or nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Here's some facts:

-We dupe because we have a life and don't play PSO 24/7.
-We dupe because its the easiest method to become the ultimate character, and that is most people's ultimate goal. To deny this method would be foolish.
-We dupe because the community is burning in hell already.
-We dupe because we don't care about people who bitch at us all the time, or what they say.

You may want to take the time to explain why SEGA doesn't just set regional settings, so people outside of Japan cannot access the servers; this is something that can be done quite easily on SEGA's part.

Come on, that's basic. SEGA doesn't care about us, they just want our money.

Moving on, why doesn't Nintendo target modded system? Nintendo is known for going after product if they don't like it. It's like how MS shut down modded X-Boxes - Ninendo could just as easily do the same. Yet, they don't. For that matter, a company bigger than MS, SONY, doesn't go after modded PS2 either. And, as we all know from bleem, if they target you, you're sunk.

(For those more familiar with import laws, yes, I am aware of the fact that I can easily kill this fool's statement by taking that approach, but, it's just fun this way)

O-kay...I don't have a modded system, so I won't answer that.

Btw, I already know that you can't. And guess what, anything you throw at me I can easily shut down. Because we're both consistant in our methods. I make a statement and support it with evidence, while you do not. So, keep grasping for straws all you want.

No, you do not do any of that. You say something, put your fingers in your ears, and repeat it. You don't beat our points, you simply ignore the good ones and shoot down the mediocre.
Still, keep being the master debater in your own mind.

And, if you want another example, try tackling the cross-platform play that wasn't. You know, the one that was canceled because of cheating. I'm sure you'll come up with a clever one there - Probably something that goes like "I know more about the DC and GC and know for a fact that such a thing isn't possible" (side note: That's the most common 'argument' I hear on the issue)

Yeah, well, I can't do anything about what people did on the DC because I never played it.

Edit: Link was kind enough to order me a USB also, so add me to your blacklist ^_^

[ This Message was edited by: LordCronai on 2003-04-05 19:19 ]