Knuckles Vs Daggers

[Adronicus]

Now, I that a large base of ppl love the daggers, but idk if that's because of how flashy it is or idk. Is their anything really special about daggers that makes it better then knuckles or vise versa?

[Macman]

Daggers annoy me with their lack of forward movement when attacking.

[Adronicus]

Yea I noticed that a bit in some of the videos I watched

[consume]

Daggers maek you flyyyy

And knuckles make you invincible.

[blace]

Daggers maek you flyyyy
Exactly why people use them, to get those out of reach flying mobs/weak spots.


And knuckles make you invincible.
Since when?

I use my knuckles to get around the map quickly or for the heavy hitting capability and damage dealing PAs.

[consume]

Exactly why people use them, to get those out of reach flying mobs/weak spots.

Since when?

I use my knuckles to get around the map quickly or for the heavy hitting capability and damage dealing PAs.

Isn't shift supposed to make you invincible?

[blace]

The dodge yes, but it's not as effective as daggers who reflect all manner of attack from all sides. The shift action for knuckles is only great for canceling, ie. pulling off Just Attack jabs, and has a shorter duration than daggers.

[Adronicus]

Now with daggers making you fly and all personally before the fighter class came I had no trouble fighting enemy's in the air so that's why I don't find daggers all that

[Adronicus]

So wait since both of them can't block the daggers have a better dodge or whatever you want to call then the knuckes?

[blace]

Daggers can block, just not how a sword or partisan can block. For example, say you're surrounded and you're about to be struck from multiple directions, use your dagger shift action and you'll avoid taking damage from all sides whereas the sword and partisan only protect you from the front.

Edit: unlike the other set of melee weapons, it's a very brief action and also acts as an attack.

[Syklo]

Daggers can block, just not how a sword or partisan can block. For example, say you're surrounded and you're about to be struck from multiple directions, use your dagger shift action and you'll avoid taking damage from all sides whereas the sword and partisan only protect you from the front.

Edit: unlike the other set of melee weapons, it's a very brief action and also acts as an attack.
Just like to point out that the converse also applies: dagger attacks can act also block at certain moments
So it's more of a parry

[gigawuts]

Daggers are the king of midair combat. They have superior elevating attacks, lots of enemy lifting attacks, and very fast normal attacks with a nice delay to falling between them. On top of this they have raging waltz, which homes in on your selected target.

If you find that you are already all kinds of amazing at aerial combat with melee, then by all means don't use them.

[Syklo]

Daggers are the king of midair combat. They have superior elevating attacks, lots of enemy lifting attacks, and very fast normal attacks with a nice delay to falling between them. On top of this they have raging waltz and Symphonic Drive, which homes in on your selected target.

If you find that you are already all kinds of amazing at aerial combat with melee, then by all means don't use them.

Fixed, because most of the time, people neglect the other homing PA....

[gigawuts]

People neglect it because it pushes you away and that's fucking dumb.

[Syklo]

People neglect it because it pushes you away and that's fucking dumb.
Does it really put people off that you can just cancel the 2nd part of the PA (That "jumping away and kicking the enemy away" part) by using the twirl? (Shift)

Just asking, I may be one of the few (if not the only one) people that use it...

P.S. [spoiler-box]The twirl can be used to cancel ANYTHING in midair, even mid-flight of raging waltz (Which should really be a last resort as you'd waste pp)[/spoiler-box]

[Drifting Fable]

I too am a symphonic drive user, mainly because it's how I SA2 homing attack comboed with raging waltz. I only dagger big bosses and some time agnises so its knockback is of little consequence to me. Still I might give cancel twirling a try sometime.

Otherwise I'm a Hokuto Drillken user just about all of the time.

[Rien]

I too am a symphonic drive user, mainly because it's how I SA2 homing attack comboed with raging waltz. I only dagger big bosses and some time agnises so its knockback is of little consequence to me. Still I might give cancel twirling a try sometime.

Otherwise I'm a Hokuto Drillken user just about all of the time.

Lol, guess I'm not the only one who uses Flash Thousand and has a voice yelling "HOKUTO HYAKURETSU KEN" in my head every time it finishes off something.

[NoiseHERO]

I too am a symphonic drive user, mainly because it's how I SA2 homing attack comboed with raging waltz. I only dagger big bosses and some time agnises so its knockback is of little consequence to me. Still I might give cancel twirling a try sometime.

Otherwise I'm a Hokuto Drillken user just about all of the time.

Original Character Do Not Steal

[Macman]

Daggers are the king of midair combat.
I find mechguns to be better.
Satellite Aim (and Elder Rebellion to an extent) is amazing at juggling and you can stay in the air indefinitely with Aerial Shooting. The shift dodge also grants you an absurd amount of invulnerability besting even Mirage Escape.

Only thing I can think of that daggers do better than mechguns when it comes to air combat is closing gaps with their Sonic the Hedgehog homing attacks. Aerial Shooting can somewhat emulate that, but requires a charge time to get the full effect and has to be executed from the ground to get the homing effect.

[gigawuts]

I find mechguns to be better.
Satellite Aim (and Elder Rebellion to an extent) is amazing at juggling and you can stay in the air indefinitely with Aerial Shooting. The shift dodge also grants you an absurd amount of invulnerability besting even Mirage Escape.

Only thing I can think of that daggers do better than mechguns when it comes to air combat is closing gaps with their Sonic the Hedgehog homing attacks. Aerial Shooting can somewhat emulate that, but requires a charge time to get the full effect and has to be executed from the ground to get the homing effect.

Sorry I didn't think I'd have to specify melee combat in a thread about melee.

Either way, a weapon capable of firing bullets will without a doubt be better at hitting enemies in the air than something that reaches up to pretty much arm's length.

That said, if I wanted to cite the real king of hitting airborne enemies I'd have just said techs.

Also, what daggers do better is they can be used by hu/fi or fi/hu. They're the semi-ranged option for melee characters, except instead of hitting a target at range they reliably and easily close the gap to the target.

[Syklo]

Sorry I didn't think I'd have to specify melee combat in a thread about melee.

Either way, a weapon capable of firing bullets will without a doubt be better at hitting enemies in the air than something that reaches up to pretty much arm's length.

That said, if I wanted to cite the real king of hitting airborne enemies I'd have just said techs.

Also, what daggers do better is they can be used by hu/fi or fi/hu. They're the semi-ranged option for melee characters, except instead of hitting a target at range they reliably and easily close the gap to the target.
Except Dark Scherzo, which does both, so I'm guessing that's why you said "semi-ranged".

[Darki]

http://i48.tinypic.com/11c455t.jpg

[supersonix9]

^ The brains of the operation.

[gigawuts]

Except Dark Scherzo, which does both, so I'm guessing that's why you said "semi-ranged".

This was way, way, way longer than I expected it to be, and I don't even fucking know why. Too tired to crop it or retype it, so here you go.

I said "semi-ranged" because as soon as you close the gap they cease to be ranged weapons. Daggers are the ranged option for melee users in that closing this gap is often difficult. Wynderas are a good example of this. They're frustrating enemies to fight for pure melee chars because of how often they fly up, and up, and up, or way off into the distance to meander back and laser snipe you. They frequently fly above jump+sonic arrow's reach, and they're resistant to lift/stun half the damn time. They also dodge back and forth frequently, making rising edge a chore. They are the most tedious fucking enemy in this game, and daggers take them down while you do nothing but left click and periodically right click.

Dark scherzo is one of those special moves that has me wondering why it was even created, alongside symphonic dive and quick march. They are entirely counterintuitive to the theme of the weapon.

Dark scherzo at first seems like a nice sonic arrow or speed rain alternative for daggers, but after you actually try using it in combat it feels utterly useless. I have yet to find a reliable or meaningful use for it that isn't outperformed by something else - even if it's just raging waltz.

There are essentially no situations where I would want to use dark scherzo on lined up enemies. Enemies that are on the ground are better taken down with a weapon meant to be used on the ground (which also tend to have far better damage and mobility). Enemies that warrant daggers in the air will be the kind that aren't standing still or require too much precision to permit dark scherzo. Ragne frequently moves, which blocks his weak point with his other hitboxes. If you're able to hit his weak point you can do so with a higher damage move because you're so close. Quartz dragon's wings move too much as he cycles through his various movements, both horizontally AND vertically, to make dark scherzo even remotely useful there either. For regular trash mobs you're looking at enemies you could take down with some tornado dances or raging waltzes + normal attacks.

I tried desperately to make symphonic dive work, but it just doesn't. Either you need to follow it up with something (costing two attacks' worth of PP), or you need to just not use it. Both of those are situational or tedious enough that, if you're like me and use one palette slot for daggers, you're better off using a more universally useful PA there. To be fair, I didn't know you could cancel the flying back thing, never thought to even try it. I still find raging waltz more useful, though, because it raises you directly above your target.

Quick march, well, god. Why? It's like short polka, except you push enemies away. I guess someone somewhere will find a situation in which they want to kick away enemies that are small enough to actually be able to be kicked away (as in, the not big, not threatening enemies...the ones you can kill in just a few attacks anyway) instead of killing them, but I am not that person.

With the single slot I use, I roll with raging waltz -> short polka -> orchestra. I enjoy this quite a bit. I keep to one slot because when I play fighter I have 2-3 for double sabers, one for fists, 0-1 for gunslash, and 1 for techs, (or 1-2 for sword if I'm subbing hunter, which I do more often than not when I'm playing fighter these days). Parrying resets my combo and lets me home in if I ever need it, and short polka is dual purpose: bumping up my own elevation, but also lifting enemies. A quick normal->PA is faster than step attacking, what with daggers having such short attack times. Orchestra is great for both ground attacking and airborne damage-dealing. Generally, if I'm using daggers dealing loads of damage against any target in front of me is not my top priority, but instead I'm looking to deal damaging to one specific target. It's more damage on quartz wings, vol's back horn, etc. than if I stood on the ground using deadly archer, and that's the whole point of the weapon. Of course a weapon that can target these and fire bullets or techs will outperform it at damaging something outside of ground-level melee range, but then, this is made specifically for pure melee chars (and people who want to look cool while attacking, which daggers do amazingly well).

Daggers are also, entertainingly, the best defensive weapon for fighters. Most attacks are meant to hit players on the ground. Many attacks will look like they hit you dead on, but since you're about 3 (non-loli) player heights in the air they don't hit you. They easily zoom you to the target you've selected, which if you select a boss's backside means zooming through them to suddenly being behind them. And again. And again. And again. They do this WITHOUT having to wait for an attack to finish, or worry about flinch while you zoom since most dagger PA's come with some handy hyper armor. This is without even mentioning the parry-guard thing between swipes during normal attacks, or the shift twirl having invincibility frames AND the parry-guard that can be extended by taking hits (Like ordinary guard can, except ordinary guard - as in not just guard - still has you take damage and costs PP for each successive guard. The dagger parry-guard is entirely free in these ways.)
http://i48.tinypic.com/11c455t.jpg
I know, right? That's kind of the point of a class having access to both weapons...it's meant to use both.

[Sp-24]

I know, right? That's kind of the point of a class having access to both weapons...it's meant to use both.

And if that's not enough, their gears are only 3 skill points apart, too. (yes, that's the only thing I know about the Fighter class)

[Syklo]

This was way, way, way longer than I expected it to be, and I don't even fucking know why. Too tired to crop it or retype it, so here you go.

It was a nice read... I appreciate it?

I said "semi-ranged" because as soon as you close the gap they cease to be ranged weapons. Daggers are the ranged option for melee users in that closing this gap is often difficult. Wynderas are a good example of this. They're frustrating enemies to fight for pure melee chars because of how often they fly up, and up, and up, or way off into the distance to meander back and laser snipe you. They frequently fly above jump+sonic arrow's reach, and they're resistant to lift/stun half the damn time. They also dodge back and forth frequently, making rising edge a chore. They are the most tedious fucking enemy in this game, and daggers take them down while you do nothing but left click and periodically right click.

Dark scherzo is one of those special moves that has me wondering why it was even created, alongside symphonic dive and quick march. They are entirely counterintuitive to the theme of the weapon.

Dark scherzo at first seems like a nice sonic arrow or speed rain alternative for daggers, but after you actually try using it in combat it feels utterly useless. I have yet to find a reliable or meaningful use for it that isn't outperformed by something else - even if it's just raging waltz.

Fair enough. I mainly use it to pull multiple enemies towards me so I can finish them all off as a group with orchestra or something.

Enemies that warrant daggers in the air will be the kind that aren't standing still or require too much precision to permit dark scherzo. Ragne frequently moves, which blocks his weak point with his other hitboxes. If you're able to hit his weak point you can do so with a higher damage move because you're so close. Quartz dragon's wings move too much as he cycles through his various movements, both horizontally AND vertically, to make dark scherzo even remotely useful there either.
why would you even use Scherzo on boss-type monsters anyway...?

For regular trash mobs you're looking at enemies you could take down with some tornado dances or raging waltzes + normal attacks.
Tornado perhaps, but waltzing+jabbing just drains the pp too quickly.

I tried desperately to make symphonic dive work, but it just doesn't. Either you need to follow it up with something (costing two attacks' worth of PP), or you need to just not use it. Both of those are situational or tedious enough that, if you're like me and use one palette slot for daggers, you're better off using a more universally useful PA there. To be fair, I didn't know you could cancel the flying back thing, never thought to even try it. I still find raging waltz more useful, though, because it raises you directly above your target.
If it isn't your style then that's perfectly fine, I won't force you to use it. I was merely pointing out some things that I assumed you didn't know about the PA.
And fun fact: I tend to use twirl right after raging waltz just to boost my TD gear :D

Regarding the one-slot thing, yeah I only use one slot for daggers too, but my overall weapon set-up may seem a bit bizarre to you:

Daggers
Double sabers
Knuckles
Force universal weapon
Gunslash
Twin mech

Also, although it's just me here, I'm perfectly fine with switching PA slots mid-combat, heck it can take less than 3 seconds for me (Switch dark scherzo to shoot polka? No problem, just F5>right x3>enter>down>enter>cancel/close all)

Quick march, well, god. Why? It's like short polka, except you push enemies away. I guess someone somewhere will find a situation in which they want to kick away enemies that are small enough to actually be able to be kicked away (as in, the not big, not threatening enemies...the ones you can kill in just a few attacks anyway) instead of killing them, but I am not that person.
I've yet to get Quick March, so I can't comment much here...

Daggers are also, entertainingly, the best defensive weapon for fighters. Most attacks are meant to hit players on the ground. Many attacks will look like they hit you dead on, but since you're about 3 (non-loli) player heights in the air they don't hit you. They easily zoom you to the target you've selected, which if you select a boss's backside means zooming through them to suddenly being behind them. And again. And again. And again. They do this WITHOUT having to wait for an attack to finish, or worry about flinch while you zoom since most dagger PA's come with some handy hyper armor. This is without even mentioning the parry-guard thing between swipes during normal attacks, or the shift twirl having invincibility frames AND the parry-guard that can be extended by taking hits (Like ordinary guard can, except ordinary guard - as in not just guard - still has you take damage and costs PP for each successive guard. The dagger parry-guard is entirely free in these ways.)
Completely agree with you here.
And not really on-topic, well, not completely:
The weapons I use were kinda determined by their element. For fire and light damage i use daggers, dark for double sabers and ice/lightning for knuckles.
Don't ask why, it just turned out that way.

[Darki]

I know, right? That's kind of the point of a class having access to both weapons...it's meant to use both.

Even though I understand part of the meaning of these threads from an objective point of view, I always find them amusing. is like if someone went to the doctor asking "kidneys vs pancreas". Everytime I see this sort of threads that meme pops into my head. xD

[Enforcer MKV]

Sorry I didn't think I'd have to specify melee combat in a thread about melee.

That being said, once you start using the PAs for Mechs it's practically a melee weapon...


http://i48.tinypic.com/11c455t.jpg

This jpg. It's perfect. Bravo, Darki, Bravo!

[Adronicus]

I guess you could have both, but it is also very costly to have both and maintain them. Also of course guns would be better in mid air combat that's just obvious

[Drifting Fable]

Aren't knuckles still dirt cheap on the market in comparison to daggers?

[Adronicus]

Probably, since everyone uses daggers, but I think I might take a stab @ knuckles a bit and then try daggers and make a decision whihc I will use

[blace]

Don't forget that knuckles need you to be extremely close to hit. They hit hard, but the lack of any distance is a pain.

[Adronicus]

Arnt daggers the same range? Also I guess if I went with a defensive build and stacked my mag with atk it seems pretty even

[BIG OLAF]

I utilize all weapon types available to me. Only using one or two gimps your combat-effectiveness. Not saying you can't like one more than others, but variety is the spice of life, etc.

[blace]

You'll see what I mean when you use them in combat.

Like Olaf said, make use of what's available to you or stick a weapon you're most familiar with.

[Adronicus]

Alright well thanks a lot guys

[gigawuts]

I guess you could have both, but it is also very costly to have both and maintain them. Also of course guns would be better in mid air combat that's just obvious

Well, yes and no. After a while you'll be sitting on enough cash to comfortably get what you need. You'll also have moderately good gear across the board. You don't need to get SUPERBEST items in every category. I tend to go all the way for my main weapons, but still carry a +7'd moderately good weapon in every class I can use. They all have their unique applications. Daggers are just the most dramatic in this way - nothing else lets you basically noclip towards enemies. With weapons like swords or partisans it breaks down to personal preference most of the time, but the really unique ones are good to have a 10k rare version of kicking about in your inventory (locked of course, so you don't accidentally sell them).

Either way, just know there's always more than one way to kill everything. Your preference is never wrong. It might be a bit less efficient than another way, but as long as you're having fun and not ruining anyone else's fun then you're absolutely not wrong.

[Adronicus]

^Thx giga I will remember that as I start playing again

[Coatl]

Idk. Knuckles seem pretty useless to me.
You hit harder just using double saber, you have more AOE with double saber, you look cooler with double sabers..

Daggers are useful for aerial maneuver though, like killing a ragne without touching its legs.
I don't find Quick March useless at all IMO. It's a fast Polka, and sometimes speed is needed to time your hits right.


That being said, once you start using the PAs for Mechs it's practically a melee weapon...


After you get elder rebellion there's little means to actually play machine guns as a "melee weapon".

[moorebounce]

I like using Knuckles on bigger enemies and bosses. The Daggers are useless on bigger enemies and bosses. It seems like all the new weapons but the Daggers got really powerful PAs IMO.

[Zenobia]

Idk. Knuckles seem pretty useless to me.
You hit harder just using double saber, you have more AOE with double saber, you look cooler with double sabers..

Daggers are useful for aerial maneuver though, like killing a ragne without touching its legs.
I don't find Quick March useless at all IMO. It's a fast Polka, and sometimes speed is needed to time your hits right.



After you get elder rebellion there's little means to actually play machine guns as a "melee weapon".

That's the problem i see all these elder rebellion spammers and most i see doing this DIE 50% of the time. I mean come on how do you die on Rockbear srsly.

To many ppl dieing as a gunner and if your not using the moves given to you as a gunner then let's just say it...your doing it wrong.

As for me i cant see myself spamming EB 100% OF THE TIME gets boring as hell and most ppl even with bosses spam that same move and get hit loads its pretty funny to see considering im in the air 100% of the time out of harms reach and can maintain it during a whole boss fight.

Dead Approach, Bullet Squall. Aerial Shooting, Messiah Time etc. I dont see how the hell most gunners ignore these essential skill's there the best skills given to you if used right..but thats the thing there not used right.

Oh and im speaking in general from my exp.

[Rien]

I'd like to ask how Messiah Time is one of the most essential skills.

Invincible frames?

Anyway, I honestly think that Knuckle Gear really makes the Knuckles a whole lot more usable: Range and Speed. Dagger Gear just adds damage, though that damage is good damage.

[Zenobia]

Sense when did knuckles get range lol when you have to be dead in close for ANY of you pa hits to count i have a FI/HU and all PA's.

Ive never seen a knuckle pa that was ranged or any of that matter and all of em requires a close combat approach for any of the hits to count.

[Syklo]

Sense when did knuckles get range
He did say with knuckle gear;

Flicker jab.
Straight charge if you even count that.
And possibly Quake Howling.

[Zenobia]

He did say with knuckle gear;

Flicker jab.
Straight charge if you even count that.
And possibly Quake Howling.

lol?

How are those even ranged if they still require you to be up close for them to hit

Most ive seen ppl use straight charge and that's for getting around the map faster

How does quake howling get ranged it just gives it a better aoe stun and you can barely see the diff but i do notice it.

[Rien]

Sense when did knuckles get range lol when you have to be dead in close for ANY of you pa hits to count i have a FI/HU and all PA's.

Ive never seen a knuckle pa that was ranged or any of that matter and all of em requires a close combat approach for any of the hits to count.

You can now hit with some PA's without having to be so dead-close your character's fist has to literally touch the opponent (which can be hard in cases like Dagens where they would jump backwards after an attack)

Mostly for Flicker Jab, Quake Howling and Surprise Knuckle.

edit: Can you please answer my previous question asking why Messiah Time is essential to gunners?

[Zenobia]

You can now hit with some PA's without having to be so dead-close your character's fist has to literally touch the opponent (which can be hard in cases like Dagens where they would jump backwards after an attack)

Mostly for Flicker Jab, Quake Howling and Surprise Knuckle.

edit: Can you please answer my previous question asking why Messiah Time is essential to gunners?

Use it against bosses i use againts bosses like banther's lunge attacks,Ragne's lightning,red disk atks, Vol and the big fire ball he shoots out which makes him lose all his armor again.

I could name many more but i like using it in combos like DA,MT, then BS which always lets me keep my dps going without taking breaks to run heal and stuff.

So yeah the invincible frames yeah the shift button is good but the first to shift presses can still leave u open its only the 3 one that rly makes a big dif.

I like how EB lets you aggro moves too,but still i just cant be spamming that all day lol.

[Adronicus]

So wait hold on... Why are knuckles useless? They hit the hardest out of the 3 new fighter weapons plus its shift is better then the double saber imo

[Syklo]

So wait hold on... Why are knuckles useless? They hit the hardest out of the 3 new fighter weapons plus its shift is better then the double saber imo
Seriously!?
Once double saber GEAR is acquired, i'd reckon double saber -SHIFT- is much much muuuuuuuch better than knuckles.

But yes, they do hit the hardest out of all fighter weapons, and I reckon where Twin daggers ace in aerial combat, Knuckles ace in ground combat (shift can cancel pretty much EVERY knuckle move out there).

[Adronicus]

Seriously!?
Once double saber GEAR is acquired, i'd reckon double saber -SHIFT- is much much muuuuuuuch better than knuckles.

But yes, they do hit the hardest out of all fighter weapons, and I reckon where Twin daggers ace in aerial combat, Knuckles ace in ground combat (shift can cancel pretty much EVERY knuckle move out there).

Seriously....lol well idk personally I like how the knuckles are and wait if knuckles is a ace on the ground and daggers is aerial what is so amazing about double sabers?

[Syklo]

Seriously....lol well idk personally I like how the knuckles are and wait if knuckles is a ace on the ground and daggers is aerial what is so amazing about double sabers?
IMO, crowd control.
Seriously, all it takes is about 5 enemies right around you, 1 use of DS Gear and a couple normal attacks and the gear gauge maxes out; spammable.

[RemChu]

That's the problem i see all these elder rebellion spammers and most i see doing this DIE 50% of the time. I mean come on how do you die on Rockbear srsly.

To many ppl dieing as a gunner and if your not using the moves given to you as a gunner then let's just say it...your doing it wrong.

As for me i cant see myself spamming EB 100% OF THE TIME gets boring as hell and most ppl even with bosses spam that same move and get hit loads its pretty funny to see considering im in the air 100% of the time out of harms reach and can maintain it during a whole boss fight.

Dead Approach, Bullet Squall. Aerial Shooting, Messiah Time etc. I dont see how the hell most gunners ignore these essential skill's there the best skills given to you if used right..but thats the thing there not used right.

Oh and im speaking in general from my exp.

Gunner is so abusive...Glad to see you are using it right. 8-)

[Adronicus]

Arghh ok, but syk I guess since I want to do kind of a defensive fighter instead of the usually on the atk meele character knuckles would do the job for me instead of double sabers or daggers

[Syklo]

Arghh ok, but syk I guess since I want to do kind of a defensive fighter instead of the usually on the atk meele character knuckles would do the job for me instead of double sabers or daggers

I reckon you contradicted yourself there.
Daggers are the most defensive weapons fighters have, believe it or not. Nearly ALL of its attacks can parry (i.e. Just guard), including the Twirl (Shift; which also blocks follow-up CONSECUTIVE attacks as well as blocking in any direction.
If you want to know what I mean, fight quartz dragon on very hard mode to the point where she (yes, she) uses the light rain attack (not the missiles) and time your twirl while in it, correctly, and watch the slow-mo :)

In a nutshell, Twin dagger twirl is a guaranteed split-second invincibility (which can be extended with follow-up consecutive attacks, and lasts longer than knuckle's "duck") that also acts as an attack itself, but can only cancel moves mid-air.

Just informing you of this in case you didn't know

[Adronicus]

I reckon you contradicted yourself there.
Daggers are the most defensive weapons fighters have, believe it or not. Nearly ALL of its attacks can parry (i.e. Just guard), including the Twirl (Shift; which also blocks follow-up CONSECUTIVE attacks as well as blocking in any direction.
If you want to know what I mean, fight quartz dragon on very hard mode to the point where she (yes, she) uses the light rain attack (not the missiles) and time your twirl while in it, correctly, and watch the slow-mo :)

In a nutshell, Twin dagger twirl is a guaranteed split-second invincibility (which can be extended with follow-up consecutive attacks, and lasts longer than knuckle's "duck") that also acts as an attack itself, but can only cancel moves mid-air.

Just informing you of this in case you didn't know

Thank you for the recap, but daggers don't hit as hard and it is most affective in the air. Also quartz dragon is just one boss out of many that have certain atks that you need a actual guard from saving your hp.

I do see where I contradicted my self, but if I max out war cry and the monster has all eyes on me it will be some what hard to stay in the air and press shift every few seconds where as with knuckles its a continues combo and when they atk you press shift and its kind of like a counter. Personally, I still don't know which would be better since I have not aquired all the pa, but when I do then I can have a stronger judgement on which is better

[Syklo]

Thank you for the recap, but daggers don't hit as hard and it is most affective in the air. Also quartz dragon is just one boss out of many that have certain atks that you need a actual guard from saving your hp.

I do see where I contradicted my self, but if I max out war cry and the monster has all eyes on me it will be some what hard to stay in the air and press shift every few seconds where as with knuckles its a continues combo and when they atk you press shift and its kind of like a counter. Personally, I still don't know which would be better since I have not aquired all the pa, but when I do then I can have a stronger judgement on which is better
Fair enough, and I didn't realise you had Hunter subbed, so I can see why the dagger guard isn't entirely necessary...

[Coatl]

Fists hit harder than Double sabers, but in terms of actual damage per second Double saber excels.

[Adronicus]

@Syk- Yea its fine and you got me thinking a lot about how i should decide so thank you^^
@Coatl- Double sabers are faster then fist O_O I thought in terms of speed it went Daggers, Knuckles and then Double saber

[Syklo]

@Syk- Yea its fine and you got me thinking a lot about how i should decide so thank you^^
No problem man, you can switch weapons at any time anyway :)

@Coatl- Double sabers are faster then fist O_O I thought in terms of speed it went Daggers, Knuckles and then Double saber
Well, that would be correct (in my eyes) in terms of the normal attack combo only (and considering all gears acquired, esp. knuckle gear)

But in terms of DPS across all PA's as well, IMO, it's either Double Sabers or Knuckles. Double Sabers can dish out looooots of numbers combined with Tornado Dance and/or Deadly archer + DS gear, but knuckles can do damage equivalent to 2 or 3 hits of some double saber PA's OR MORE, per hit of some PA.
I reckon, in the short term, knuckles would be better but in the long run, Double sabers would be better for damage output.

However I wouldn't say Double Sabers would be better overall; from experience, none of its attacks can be cancelled while they're being performed, neither do many of them have parrying properties (I've only seen acro effect do that). It's for this reason that I never boss with a double saber, which sucks since I need to kill a fang banther on VH with double sabers for the extra 5 SP... (only for the killing part, that is...not the whole fight :D)

They do nuke the little critters quite well though, :P

TL;DR - DS has great potential, but it's either you dish, or you miss.

[Zenobia]

Well, that would be correct (in my eyes) in terms of the normal attack combo only (and considering all gears acquired, esp. knuckle gear)

But in terms of DPS across all PA's as well, IMO, it's either Double Sabers or Knuckles. Double Sabers can dish out looooots of numbers combined with Tornado Dance and/or Deadly archer + DS gear, but knuckles can do damage equivalent to 2 or 3 hits of some double saber PA's OR MORE, per hit of some PA.
I reckon, in the short term, knuckles would be better but in the long run, Double sabers would be better for damage output.

However I wouldn't say Double Sabers would be better overall; from experience, none of its attacks can be cancelled while they're being performed, neither do many of them have parrying properties (I've only seen acro effect do that). It's for this reason that I never boss with a double saber, which sucks since I need to kill a fang banther on VH with double sabers for the extra 5 SP... (only for the killing part, that is...not the whole fight :D)

They do nuke the little critters quite well though, :P

TL;DR - DS has great potential, but it's either you dish, or you miss.

Lets not forget Double saber gear+Tornado Dance x3 with these 2 going you can keep you saber gear maintained and not only that you build ur pb gauge hella fast this way dagger and fist dont offer this what so ever hands down.

[Adronicus]

Well, that would be correct (in my eyes) in terms of the normal attack combo only (and considering all gears acquired, esp. knuckle gear)

But in terms of DPS across all PA's as well, IMO, it's either Double Sabers or Knuckles. Double Sabers can dish out looooots of numbers combined with Tornado Dance and/or Deadly archer + DS gear, but knuckles can do damage equivalent to 2 or 3 hits of some double saber PA's OR MORE, per hit of some PA.
I reckon, in the short term, knuckles would be better but in the long run, Double sabers would be better for damage output.

However I wouldn't say Double Sabers would be better overall; from experience, none of its attacks can be cancelled while they're being performed, neither do many of them have parrying properties (I've only seen acro effect do that). It's for this reason that I never boss with a double saber, which sucks since I need to kill a fang banther on VH with double sabers for the extra 5 SP... (only for the killing part, that is...not the whole fight :D)

They do nuke the little critters quite well though, :P

TL;DR - DS has great potential, but it's either you dish, or you miss.

Hmmmm....... So much to think about x_x lool. Do they nuke critters better then wired lance?And Good luck with that quest

[gigawuts]

Fists are probably the best in a couple situations, but could really use some lovin'. They don't really warrant the extra investment to keep up pacing with comparable double sabers and how versatile they can be.

[Adronicus]

Fists are probably the best in a couple situations, but could really use some lovin'. They don't really warrant the extra investment to keep up pacing with comparable double sabers and how versatile they can be.

Do you prefer double sabers or fists giga?

[Zenobia]

Do you prefer double sabers or fists giga?

It's more of a personal pref i myself use all my weps but when i wanna get things done lol i use DS for sure to get my pb gauge up and if there's a big crowd Iron howling Ragne spawns? Np Daggers at the rdy.

[blace]

Do you prefer double sabers or fists giga?

From what times I've ran into him, he has daggers equipped.

It all depends on what suits you, for a few enemies I use knuckles or daggers, in larger enemy mobs I use double sabers. Solo and crowd control.

[Adronicus]

Hmmmmm, okiee so from my understanding for knuckles vs daggers its personal pref, but for big crowds double sabers is the way to go.

[Syklo]

Hmmmmm, okiee so from my understanding for knuckles vs daggers its personal pref, but for big crowds double sabers is the way to go.
Pretty much.

I tend to use knuckles against mechs since they're mostly slowpokes anyway, plus mine happen to be lightning element.

Mostly use daggers though, even if they're weak.

[Vylera]

its personal pref

The truth about all weapons in PSO2.

We can argue efficiency all day, but when it comes down to it it's about what you want to use.

Hurray for freedom of choice.

[The Walrus]

Double Sabers are not a choice. They are a way of life

[Syklo]

Double Sabers are not a choice. They are a way of life
and a way of life is a choice itself.

[Adronicus]

Pretty much.

I tend to use knuckles against mechs since they're mostly slowpokes anyway, plus mine happen to be lightning element.

Mostly use daggers though, even if they're weak.
Ahh ok, but that's cause you just feel more comfortable about them

[Adronicus]

The truth about all weapons in PSO2.

We can argue efficiency all day, but when it comes down to it it's about what you want to use.

Hurray for freedom of choice.
So what do you use Vylera?

[blace]

I'm not really sure on why you're keen on knuckles only and having to say something like that on everyone elses input. Just use those weapons yourself and see what works for you.

[Adronicus]

I'm not really sure on why you're keen on knuckles only and having to say something like that on everyone elses input. Just use those weapons yourself and see what works for you.
Oh, sorry to make it sound like that :x I have grown fond of all three tbh. I can see why people love them individually and I also see why people love daggers cuz you pretty much never leave the air until the enemy is dead ahah. Also double sabers is beauty with or without crowds :P

[Syklo]

I'm not really sure on why you're keen on knuckles only and having to say something like that on everyone elses input. Just use those weapons yourself and see what works for you.
He wanted everyone else's opinion on which they prefer and why; they might mention something available for that weapon for which the OP didn't acknowledge yet and thus, test it for himself.

I think.....

[Adronicus]

He wanted everyone else's opinion on which they prefer and why; they might mention something available for that weapon for which the OP didn't acknowledge yet and thus, test it for himself.

I think.....
Pretty much right on point from what I was trying to do