JP PSO2 Weapon ATK Vs. Element [Test w/ Videos] [Archive]

521

Dec 3, 2012, 02:07 AM

I started this thread because i think weapon element is a major oversight to players in this game. So i am gathering what information I can, as well as recording my testings. Here is what we've got so far....

DAMAGE FORMULA
[SPOILER-BOX]

Total Damage: (Damage + Elemental Bonus) * PA Modifier (the power is a percentage)

Damage: (Total Attack / 5 - Enemy's Total Defense / 5) * Location Modifier (eg: rockbear face has a multiplier of something compared to its body)
Elemental Bonus: (Weapon's TOTAL attack power excluding affixes / 5 * Elemental Bonus) * Elemental Modifier (this varies from enemy to enemy, but it's a good rule of thumb that a weak enemy increases this value by 20~30% which is quite a lot)

When it comes to the modifiers (Location and Elemental), some examples of this reducing damage is:

Kartargot Body (think about it, you do extremely little damage)
Vol Dragon Elemental Resistance (think about the huge decrease if you use fire on him versus ice; it's far different to other enemies)

But a good rule of thumb is that elements will increase your damage on all enemies; it's just there are rare occasions when it will actually decrease the damage you do (mainly Vol Dragon, MAYBE Quartz as well).

Source (http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E5%B1%9E%E6%80%A7%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96).
[/SPOILER-BOX]

The weapons being used in the videos
[SPOILER-BOX]http://imageshack.us/a/img26/656/weptest.png[/SPOILER-BOX]
PART I: No JA, No Weak Bullet, No Weak Point
Video available in 1080p (http://youtu.be/B34PNHK53Kk?hd=1) (so you can actually read what i am writing)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B34PNHK53Kk

Results:
Latria Rain - ラトリアレイン Avg. Damage: 572
Lambda Strauss - ラムダシュトラウス- Avg. Damage: 610

PART II: Using Weak Bullet & JA, Not hitting Weak Point
*Ignore the first sneak shot in each clip, I forgot i was JA'ing off weak bullet - Just going by JA damage*
Video available in 1080p (http://youtu.be/Y8SOCUVMX7w?hd=1) (so you can actually read what i am writing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8SOCUVMX7w

Lambda Strauss/ラムダシュトラウス: 6078, 6076, 6000, 6099, 6112, 6130, 5976, 6111
Lambda Strauss/ラムダシュトラウス Avg. = 6073

-------------------------------------------------------------

Latria Rain/ラトリアレイン: 5608, 5777, 5642, 5778, 5729, 5666, 5630, 5661
Latria Rain/ラトリアレイン Avg. = 5686

.Jack

Dec 3, 2012, 02:36 AM

Is there a precise ratio of comparison, for example let's say a 5% element is equal/similar to x/attack? This is very interesting.

NoiseHERO

Dec 3, 2012, 02:45 AM

"Hurr element is useless"

>Looks @ weapons costing 2 mil more just for having 14% element compared to having none.

521

Dec 3, 2012, 02:45 AM

Is there a precise ratio of comparison, for example let's say a 5% element is equal/similar to x/attack? This is very interesting.

There is, i read parts of it once, it was in JP though i used google translate which made it very difficult to understand....

I'm hoping someone could explain it in English. Once we get more information, i will update the OP along with more videos.

RedRaz0r

Dec 3, 2012, 02:49 AM

There is, i read parts of it once, it was in JP though i used google translate which made it very difficult to understand....

I'm hoping someone could explain it in English. Once we get more information, i will update the OP along with more videos.

Do you have a link to that? Maybe someone could give a more understandable translation.

Valimer

Dec 3, 2012, 02:53 AM

Thanks for making and posting this video, it's really enlightening.

RedRaz0r

Dec 3, 2012, 02:59 AM

Thanks for making and posting this video, it's really enlightening.

Oh yeah, sorry forgot to add this is my previous post. Thanks much for this!

Spellbinder

Dec 3, 2012, 03:31 AM

Do you have a link to that? Maybe someone could give a more understandable translation.

Now that the JLPT test is over (so help me god if I pass N1), I might have a little more time to look over some Japanese.

Syklo

Dec 3, 2012, 03:44 AM

Now that the JLPT test is over (so help me god if I pass N1), I might have a little more time to look over some Japanese.
Is it too late to say, good luck?

I should try out JLPT some time...

Spellbinder

Dec 3, 2012, 03:54 AM

Is it too late to say, good luck?

I should try out JLPT some time...

Too late, but I'm not sweating it. ^^;

I only applied and began cramming for it in October because my current job asked if I passed it during my final interview (already done with N2). I'm still a fledgling translator, but the coordinator for my department said I should worry more about really "knowing" the Japanese rather than having the piece of paper.

While getting that piece of paper would be awesome (really awesome), I agree with what he said. I rarely come across any of the material from N1 in my translation work. Then again, I don't get to translate all the juicy stuff at work yet. :-P

On Topic: Although it was focused more so on the benefits of Wand Gear, there's at least one brief video on Niconico where someone tests weapons with 0, 20, 50 of an element against Rock Bear.

Macman

Dec 3, 2012, 06:16 AM

Shouldn't you use identical weapons in order to make your demonstration more accurate?
Like use two Vita Lasers at +10 each, one with 50% element, and one with none.

jooozek

Dec 3, 2012, 06:23 AM

Point is, the weapon with less R-ATK but more attribute outdamages the weapon with more R-ATK but less attribute and that by a decent chunk. That should be good enough.

Soultrigger

Dec 3, 2012, 07:00 AM

Is there a precise ratio of comparison, for example let's say a 5% element is equal/similar to x/attack? This is very interesting.

Considering it's a multiplier, the only way to compare this is to figure out what exactly it multiplies. This could be base ATK, weapon ATK, base+weapon ATK, base+affix, etc.

I'm not sure how this works in calculation, because it could be done in many ways. But when you consider some passive skills like JA bonus that give a 110% at level 10, it makes sense why a high element (or even any) is desirable.

CelestialBlade

Dec 3, 2012, 07:26 AM

Excellent data here, thanks for sharing. Makes me glad the tradeable 10*s coming out this update all have 30 Light on them, offsetting their lower attack power.

Z-0

Dec 3, 2012, 08:42 AM

Yes, I showed 521 the elemental equation quite a bit back, and ever since then we've never really bothered with the 10* weaponry (except FO stuff, of course, since element doesn't matter). Since hunting for a high element 10* is worse than hunting for the 10* itself, it's far, far easier to just play and make meseta to be able to elemental grind a weapon higher, than force yourself to hunt for a weapon that's easily outclassed.

Here's the damage formula:

Total Damage: (Damage + Elemental Bonus) * PA Modifier (the power is a percentage)

Damage: (Total Attack / 5 - Enemy's Total Defense / 5) * Location Modifier (eg: rockbear face has a multiplier of something compared to its body)
Elemental Bonus: (Weapon's TOTAL attack power excluding affixes / 5 * Elemental Bonus) * Elemental Modifier (this varies from enemy to enemy, but it's a good rule of thumb that a weak enemy increases this value by 20~30% which is quite a lot)

When it comes to the modifiers (Location and Elemental), some examples of this reducing damage is:

Kartargot Body (think about it, you do extremely little damage)
Vol Dragon Elemental Resistance (think about the huge decrease if you use fire on him versus ice; it's far different to other enemies)

But a good rule of thumb is that elements will increase your damage on all enemies; it's just there are rare occasions when it will actually decrease the damage you do (mainly Vol Dragon, MAYBE Quartz as well).

Ding dong, link to statistics (http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E5%B1%9E%E6%80%A7%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96).

I may also add that Malmoths may be weaker to Light than they are to Lightning; each enemy has their elemental resistances for every element; you just don't know them except for the weak ones.

CelestialBlade

Dec 3, 2012, 10:01 AM

Interesting, so the double saber I'm hunting (316 base S-ATK) would have to have at least 27 element bonus to equal the 10* double saber available in the pyroxene shop (283 base S-ATK and 30 Light according to screenshots). That really puts a lot more value on the pyroxenes as long as the Iristisia stones aren't impossible to acquire. Would rather hunt something with a guaranteed modifier than a chance of it being lower or higher.

consume

Dec 3, 2012, 10:05 AM

So lets say someone has a 32 element demo comet or meren nenka. Would I still do more with a 50 element noise blower assuming they had like 50 more satk?

Z-0

Dec 3, 2012, 10:24 AM

CelestialBlade

Dec 3, 2012, 10:50 AM

You would do more damage, yes. Right now, I would say Lambda Fairnote (buyable) and Noise Blower (most common 10*) are the best Double Sabers to hunt for, assuming you're looking for maximum efficiency.

Luckily for me, my Blower dropped with 34 fire, so only need to find 3 more to make it 50%. Debating whether I should go for fire or lightning, though. (Not going for Light, it's not very useful where elements really matter, as you can just have a fire and lightning set)
Been hunting Lambda Fairnote/Failnaught for the last three weeks and anything with element starts at around 5mil....yeah. But I'm bitter :P Supposedly the drop rate for 7-9*s got improved but I'm sure not seeing it.

I like Light as a good all-around choice because every mission has Darkers, but Lightning and Fire are certainly good too.

Revlis-Desilver

Dec 3, 2012, 11:02 AM

Cry0

Dec 3, 2012, 11:18 AM

Good demonstration, and some sort of damage calculation could be formatted, if you had one stat, and that's the defense and elemental resistance of the enemies. If we have that, we're golden.

Zyrusticae

Dec 3, 2012, 12:10 PM

Elemental Bonus: (Weapon's TOTAL attack power excluding affixes / 5 * Elemental Bonus) * Elemental Modifier (this varies from enemy to enemy, but it's a good rule of thumb that a weak enemy increases this value by 20~30% which is quite a lot)

Wait, what? I can't make sense of this. I think you're missing a parenthesis here.

Elemental Bonus: ((Weapon's TOTAL attack power excluding affixes / 5) * Elemental Bonus) * Elemental Modifier

Is that right?

Edit: No, no, this doesn't make sense either! If my weapon has 600 S-Atk and 50 element, that would make the bonus 120*50*Elemental Modifier, or 6000*Elemental Modifier, which is obviously not accurate at all! But if you read it the other way the elemental bonus would decrease with itself...

I have no idea how to read this.

Link1275

Dec 3, 2012, 01:07 PM

Wait, what? I can't make sense of this. I think you're missing a parenthesis here.

Elemental Bonus: ((Weapon's TOTAL attack power excluding affixes / 5) * Elemental Bonus) * Elemental Modifier

Is that right?

Edit: No, no, this doesn't make sense either! If my weapon has 600 S-Atk and 50 element, that would make the bonus 120*50*Elemental Modifier, or 6000*Elemental Modifier, which is obviously not accurate at all! But if you read it the other way the elemental bonus would decrease with itself...

I have no idea how to read this.

You're forgetting that the elemental modifier is probably a decimal, so 6000*0.60=3600. Then you have to also remember that it has to go through the other half of the formula still.

Using "(Weapon's TOTAL attack power excluding affixes / 5 * Elemental Bonus) * Elemental Modifier "
we get (600/5*60)*0.60=1.2
Then to put it through the other half, and the numbers add up higher, so Z-0's element formula obviously isn't accurate. Here's what I think is missing from both formulas, the Element Location Modifier. Using the Element Location Modifier, you can drastically change your damage output. So with "((Weapon's TOTAL attack power excluding affixes / 5) * Elemental Bonus) * Elemental Modifier" we would get 3600 Damage +(600/ 5 -60 / 5) *35+420=4020. Then if you had an Element Location Modifier in the Element Formula then you would get another number entirely. So say 3600*.35=1260+420=1680. And of course we have no idea what these numbers are, but I would say that for element, this is very close:

Elemental Bonus: (((Weapon's TOTAL attack power excluding affixes / 5) * Elemental Bonus) * Elemental Modifier)*Element Location Modifier.
You would need to conduct tests that use more similar weapons to fine tune anything more out of these approximations though.

CelestialBlade

Dec 3, 2012, 01:12 PM

Whether the actual damage output is right or not, it proves the point and it allows you to figure out the equivalent element mod you need to surpass a certain S-ATK.

Alenoir

Dec 3, 2012, 01:15 PM

Its decent data, but there are so many variables to the damage you deal surely it would be better to test using the same weapons with less element on. I.E what if one of your weapons is getting a boost from something else like armour.
No units in the game boosts the ATK for any of the two rifles used during the video.

I would throw in some screenshots for the Vita Rifle (non-element vs 12% element), but didn't upload them anywhere. =\

Edit: The element in your weapon is a percentage, so in Zyrusticae's case it would be:

(600/5 * 0.5) * elemental modifier

With elemental modifier being... the element your target is weak against. So assuming you're hitting a Sil Dinian with a fire weapon, that means a grant total of "1".

So the elemental damage from your weapon would be 60.

If your target is an Agnis instead, and assuming the elemental modifier is 1.2x (most monster's elemental modifier is either 1.2x or 1.3x, apparently). That would make your elemental damage 72 instead.

Zyrusticae

Dec 3, 2012, 02:00 PM

That's... incredibly weak.

So there's basically no way a 400 S-Atk weapon can compete with the 800+ S-Atk 10*s out there, even if they have no element bonus whatsoever.

Figures.

Link1275

Dec 3, 2012, 02:07 PM

That's... incredibly weak.

So there's basically no way a 400 S-Atk weapon can compete with the 800+ S-Atk 10*s out there, even if they have no element bonus whatsoever.

Figures.
It might be worth it to try using a blank +10 5* and a 50% +10 5* to figure this out a little bit better. We're also missing a crucial component for any formula, the part that randomizes the damage.

Alenoir

Dec 3, 2012, 02:24 PM

That's... incredibly weak.

So there's basically no way a 400 S-Atk weapon can compete with the 800+ S-Atk 10*s out there, even if they have no element bonus whatsoever.

Figures.
All things considered (all the passive and WB and whatnot included), for Sneak Shooter, it's more than 1k damage difference from the element on a weapon between a weapon with a 50% element and the same weapon with no element.

Trying to justify it not meaning anything between a weapon and another weapon that doubles its attack is kinda... a wrong way of going about this.

jooozek

Dec 3, 2012, 02:24 PM

You will do more damage even if a monster isn't weak to an attribute. I've tested with my 50 light zanba (grinded to +10 so it's 400 S-ATK and no S-ATK affixes on it) versus a 14 dark vita claymore (grinded to +10 so it's 467 S-ATK and had Quartz Soul + Power III on it so additional 60 S-ATK = 527 S-ATK) on lvl 41 oodans and uner Fury Stance lv5 for both weapons and the result was that the Zanba did 4 more damage on Sonic Arrow than the vita claymore.

welp.

Zyrusticae

Dec 3, 2012, 03:17 PM

All things considered (all the passive and WB and whatnot included), for Sneak Shooter, it's more than 1k damage difference from the element on a weapon between a weapon with a 50% element and the same weapon with no element.

Trying to justify it not meaning anything between a weapon and another weapon that doubles its attack is kinda... a wrong way of going about this.
Well no, that's the difference between a +10'd 6* and a +10'd 10*. It really is THAT big a gap.

Vita Calibur is 492 at +10. Ruin Charm (weakest of the 10*s) hits 822.

(492/5 * 0.5) * 1 = 49.2. With the modifier of 1.3x it's still only 63, which is the equivalent of 315 S-Atk. Enough to bridge the gap, perhaps, but that's assuming an element-less ruin charm (something that will be impossible after the next patch) and an enemy really weak to that element.

Where it REALLY matters is that rares with elements are definitely much better than rares without elements. That same ruin charm with 20 element gets (822/5 * 0.2) * 1 = 32.88, rounded down to 32, or the equivalent of 160 S-Atk. Pretty darn big. Spend the untold millions needed for the element increasing items, you can get up to +82, or the equivalent of 410 S-Atk. That's huge. (Still costs 4m per 5%... so 20->50 would be 24m, lol. Not for me.)

But again, you're better off with a non-elemental 10* than a 6* at 50%.

What's still unclear to me is... how does this interact with passives like JA Advance? Does it boost all damage, after and including element bonuses?

Alenoir

Dec 3, 2012, 03:24 PM

Nah, you're better off with an elemental Lambda Alistein. Buyable, right? High attack, right? 8* with a way better grind rate than 10*, right? Why handicap yourself with a 6* unless you're making some specialty weapons? (Working on my 50% Dark Vita Laser. It'll be interesting.)

The Walrus

Dec 3, 2012, 03:28 PM

Grinding anything above 6* is a pain without a decent income

Zyrusticae

Dec 3, 2012, 03:37 PM

Z-0

Dec 3, 2012, 03:46 PM

Alenoir

Dec 3, 2012, 04:07 PM

Lambda Alistein is actually quite pretty. The colors are very easy on the eyes, unlike a certain Lambda Schwaan. >.>

Zyrusticae

Dec 3, 2012, 04:44 PM

Not sure if you know this Zy... but you need another copy of the weapon to element grind. Element Grinding 10*s is out of the question unless you are prepared to hunt for weeks on end, in which they'd be outclassed by then anyway.
Well, like I said, I can't even afford the element boosters anyways, so it's a moot point.

I just want the bloody weapon skin. So much better than all the other sword skins...

Skyly HUmar

Dec 3, 2012, 05:01 PM

Been hunting Lambda Fairnote/Failnaught for the last three weeks and anything with element starts at around 5mil....yeah. But I'm bitter :P Supposedly the drop rate for 7-9*s got improved but I'm sure not seeing it.

I like Light as a good all-around choice because every mission has Darkers, but Lightning and Fire are certainly good too.

You and me both bud. Ive been finding less rares than I used to find, junk rares included. Rappy card I got 5 days ago was the first rare Ive found in 2 weeks not counting units. But hell, maybe its just the rng.

And on topic, ive messed arround with elements a bit. I got my Spare-deon to 50% dark, and when I use slide end on dragonkin, it did about 500 dammage more than slide end on darkers (lv 7 slide end at the time, and I was arround lv 25 I belive.). I gotta test it out on a higher lv, but at the moment I can conclude that element can be really helpful to have.

Raymee

Dec 3, 2012, 05:20 PM

Dat 'The A La Menthe' song xdd

521

Dec 3, 2012, 07:28 PM

Dat 'The A La Menthe' song xdd

Lol i was watching oceans 11 while editing the video, once this scene came on, i knew i would use that song
http://youtu.be/Qnv-FI_QpAs

Anyway, made another video, different enemy and this time used weak bullet and JA.

*Ignore the first sneak shot in each clip, I forgot i was JA'ing off weak bullet - Just going by JA damage*
Video available in 1080p (http://youtu.be/Y8SOCUVMX7w?hd=1) (so you can actually read what i am writing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8SOCUVMX7w

Lambda Strauss/ラムダシュトラウス: 6078, 6076, 6000, 6099, 6112, 6130, 5976, 6111
Lambda Strauss/ラムダシュトラウス Avg. = 6073

-------------------------------------------------------------

Latria Rain/ラトリアレイン: 5608, 5777, 5642, 5778, 5729, 5666, 5630, 5661
Latria Rain/ラトリアレイン Avg. = 5686

darthvader

Jan 21, 2013, 03:30 AM

WELL, f*ck i realized this myself. when i got a non elemental ruins charm and grinded it,
i compared the damage dealt on dagash/dagacha's weak point between +10 non-ele ruins charm and +10 lambda aristin 34 darkness both have same affixes quartz+pow 3

non-ele ruins charm = 882 s-atk --> around 4800 dmg
lambda aristin 34 darkness = 791 s-atk ---> around 5100 dmg

SEGA WHY U GAVE ME RUINS CHARM BEFORE U IMPLEMENT THE (ALWAYS HAVE AT LEAST 20 ELEMENTAL ON RARES) though i got two more with elemental after i grinded my non-ele

UnLucky

Jan 21, 2013, 02:05 PM

So it really is a percentage, how bout that? People were going mad when it appeared to be a small bonus and thought it might just be straight damage or the listed attack value.

But it's basically +% of your weapon's attack. 50 element on a 700 Atk weapon is 350 extra, plus or minus resistances of the target.

Is that correct?

Z-0

Jan 21, 2013, 02:08 PM

((Weapon Attack (including grinders) / 5) * Elemental Percent) * Elemental Modifier

So if you had "0 element", you would theoretically get 20% extra attack anyway!

Kirine

Jan 21, 2013, 02:51 PM

((Weapon Attack (including grinders) / 5) * Elemental Percent) * Elemental Modifier

So if you had "0 element", you would theoretically get 20% extra attack anyway!

So as long as it gets an element, a none element to an elemental weapon is 20% stronger at minimum?

UnLucky

Jan 21, 2013, 02:52 PM

((500/5)*0)*1.3 = ???

You can also view it as ((Weapon Attack*Element as a Percent)/5)*Modifier

E: Or do you mean to say a 50 element is actually 150%, and no element is 100%?

Atyl

Jan 21, 2013, 05:48 PM

((500/5)*0)*1.3 = ???

You can also view it as ((Weapon Attack*Element as a Percent)/5)*Modifier

E: Or do you mean to say a 50 element is actually 150%, and no element is 100%?

The damage calc (or wiki, where I assume people got this) splits the formula up into:
base (shoot/blow) damage
elemental damage
total damage
So yes, the elemental percent is 0-.5. Note that it is 'damage' and not 'attack'. That's why there is the /5 in there.

Skye-Fox713

Jan 21, 2013, 06:25 PM

Its decent data, but there are so many variables to the damage you deal surely it would be better to test using the same weapons with less element on. I.E what if one of your weapons is getting a boost from something else like armour.

Iye, I do have to agree here. A good way to do it would be to get 2 Assault Rifles (the 1* weapon) both with No abilities on them. One would have no element and the other would have an element. In addition it would be best to do the Test with No armor or mag equipped to get the best and most consistent results.