Te/Fo vs Te/Fi vs Fo/Fi which is best

[ShinMaruku]

I think I am leaning to Te/Fi just for the stances and the buffs that both mix well.

[SolRiver]

Imo, the most important skill for a character that use tech is pp charge revival from the force tree.

If you don't spam tech, non force character will be okay. Other wise, better keep the force class on at all time. So, Fo/Fi or Te/Fo.

Now if tech is just a side thing or utility, I would put Fi as primary class.

[Z-0]

FO/FI.

Fire tree and stances = lolwtf levels of damage. One shotting most of Naberius TA and ALL of Lilipa TA (except Gils and Mizer) with fire is quite satisfying.

Also knuckle dash, because GOTTA GO FAST.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Fo/Fi for dps. I wouldn't suggest Te/Fi really simply because you're not really getting the "best" of anything there. Fo/Te over Te/Fo. Fo/Te can use better tech oriented armors, Rods are better for tech damage than wands, Fo can still use Te's skill tree for PP regen and it's been my personal observation that Fo charges techs faster than Te.

But Fo/Fi for dps, hands down. Not as sustainable as Fo/Te, but for burst damage, they're absolute monsters.

As has been said before, buffs are kinda meh. Not with the SP. Shifta 14 grants (iirc) about 10% extra damage and shifta adv is a 25% boost to the 10% resulting in about 13% damage. Deband is even worse since damage taken is mitigated with personal experience and a little finesse and it doesn't prevent you from being staggered.

[ShinMaruku]

FO/FI.

Fire tree and stances = lolwtf levels of damage. One shotting most of Naberius TA and ALL of Lilipa TA (except Gils and Mizer) with fire is quite satisfying.

Also knuckle dash, because GOTTA GO FAST.
1 Shotting you say? I am gonna test that :P

[Z-0]

I do it with Foie as well, and Rafoie if I take team buff.

Not on robots though, that needs Safoie. :l

[ShinMaruku]

Well I have 300k mesta to burn time to go safoi huntin!

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Burn Dora cen be pretty stingy with that tech. Took 5 kills for me to even get one to drop.

[Bellion]

I do it with Foie as well, and Rafoie if I take team buff.

Not on robots though, that needs Safoie. :l

:-o How much damage do you do with Foie and Rafoie? You can kill the Za Oodan with 1 Foie as well?

[Dextro]

FO/FI will never beat FO/TE at dps, but the burst damage (providing you get stance positioning right every time you cast) will be a lot higher.

Also, with the right tree and good equipment, you can 1-shot most VH enemies without /FI subclass or tree buffs anyway.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

This is only true for fights where the mobs outlast the initial barrage from Fo/Fi. It's not that hard to get one or two extensions using PBs. Longer battles Fo/Te will win out, but really not by much seeing as it only take s a few seconds to refil your PP if you're willing to attack (6 swings from rod or so and I'm back up to full).

Dont get me wrong, I play Fo/Te, but seeing as I can turn a WBed 17k Zonde into almost 29k by switching classes, you can't really say that Fo/Te will out DPS Fo/Fi simply based on sustainability.

[R81672]

Its really going to depend on what quest/TA your running, the gear you have, and what goal you have in mind to determine which is better between FO/FI and FO/TE. For TA though i would have to say FO/FI outclasses FO/TE by a lot especially in a party based TA if you manage your PP well and have enough damage to OHKO mobs you will clear areas much faster then FO/TE will, while not running out of PP when you do need it as long as the character has the right gear,build, and makes the right choices during the TA. Another thing to consider here is that FO/FI travels faster then FO/TE will. (I believe fist dashing is faster then the triple dash trick)

For long term DPS FO/TE should win out but really under most conditions monsters generally do not last very long. I do like FO/TE in mpa though since you have a much lower chance running out of pp fighting great numbers of enemies in short time frames.

[Z-0]

Or rather, FO/FI always has more DPS than a FO/TE. Providing you have Ketos Proi and get the PB up fast, you're not going to run out of PP (bursts in MPAs, etc). Enemies die very quickly in MPAs too, so FO/TE doesn't really help you out there. I use a fire tree on FO/FI, which essentially burns through PP a lot quicker than the other elements, and I never run out of PP. Ever.

FO/FI is really not a joke. If you learn to manage your PP and have Ketos Proi on your mag, you're going to have no problems, and playing FO/TE will feel like a chore (I know it does to me; I can never play that combination without feeling like I'm missing something).

About dashing:

Knuckle Dashing is faster than the triple dash trick, but if you triple dash with two daggers on hand and step attack at the end of each triple dash, you will move slightly faster than knuckles.

Or so one report says. Another says that knuckle dashing is faster, but who knows? They are both extremely close whatever the case is.

The point is moot anyway, because if you don't live in Asia, it's impossible to triple dash since weapons switch too slowly.

@ Bellion - Can't one shot Za Oodan / Gulf (lol I suck), although I can take them out with Safoie. Everything else can die to Foie/Rafoie though (except obvious stuff). I do over 4,250 HP (Oodan's HP in TA) with each tech, so I'm good for that quest. \o/

[Bellion]

@ Bellion - Can't one shot Za Oodan / Gulf (lol I suck), although I can take them out with Safoie. Everything else can die to Foie/Rafoie though (except obvious stuff). I do over 4,250 HP (Oodan's HP in TA) with each tech, so I'm good for that quest. \o/

Ah, the Gulf have like 4600-4800HP, so I think I'd be able to kill them in 1 Foie if I decided to get a new mag. I thought I was really doing something wrong since I can only guarantee a Gulf kill with a Safoie. Same with the Za Oodan.

[Dextro]

Or rather, FO/FI always has more DPS than a FO/TE. Providing you have Ketos Proi and get the PB up fast, you're not going to run out of PP (bursts in MPAs, etc). Enemies die very quickly in MPAs too, so FO/TE doesn't really help you out there. I use a fire tree on FO/FI, which essentially burns through PP a lot quicker than the other elements, and I never run out of PP. Ever.

No, no, no! It doesn't!

FO/FI is awful in bursts because you won't always get the stance bonus on every enemy; it's too chaotic and they don't all face your desired direction.
Not only that, but you have no pp management tools whatsoever other than your mag.

Speaking of your PB; it refills quicker the more enemies you hit with techs. You won't be filling that gauge up as quickly as a FO/TE who can juggle between PP Convert and his PB indefinitely.
Nonetheless, your additional damage as /FI serves no purpose in a burst where 'enemies die very quickly' - what you're looking for is long-term sustainability so that there's no need whatsoever to ever stop casting.

Also, you're lying if you say you use a fire tree and 'never run out PP, ever'.
Sorry, your post is really misleading players that don't post here but may browse for information.



This is only true for fights where the mobs outlast the initial barrage from Fo/Fi. Longer battles Fo/Te will win out.
Pretty much.
What constitutes a longer battle is determined by your equipment, skill tree, and the strength of your PT. (Some bosses may die in <30secs, or take 4 mins, depending on who you run with, or if you're solo)


Dont get me wrong, I play Fo/Te, but seeing as I can turn a WBed 17k Zonde into almost 29k by switching classes, you can't really say that Fo/Te will out DPS Fo/Fi simply based on sustainability.
You're referring to the Falz Hands fight I assume.
The damage increase sure is impressive, nobody is doubting that. But it's a battle that will outlast the initial barrage from FO/FI. So by your own admission, FO/FI isn't ideal for it.
Also, it's worth noting that subbing FI only has a dramatic increase in damage for Fire an Lightning techs (which can be conveniently maxed out on the FO side of the tree.) Other elements such as Ice, Wind, Dark and Light will see a much smaller boost in damage by subbing /FI over /TE. Luckily though, there's not that much use for these other elements right now.

The bottom line is that while FO/FI is great, it's very situational.
If you had to pick either Fighter or Techer as a sub, and leave the other at lv1. You'd be doing yourself a lot of harm by choosing Fighter. FO/TE is just a lot more versatile and useful in more situations.

This isn't a discussion about who puts up the highest numbers, the OP's question was which class is 'best'. And by best i assume he means the combination that (overall) has the fewest weaknesses and most strengths.

FO/TE has no weaknesses, it simply doesn't excel at burst-damage. For FO/FI to shine, there are certain scenarios that must first be met.

Edit: The only thing we've even discussed is damage. If we're going to take into account other /TE benefits such as additional T-ATK for equipment and complimentary TE skill tree abilities, then the utility blows /FI out of the water.

[Digital Satyr]

I got about 8% more damage with brave stance and 28% more damage with wise stance while using rafoie on dagans and equipping identical gear. Brave stance is clearly not worth losing all of the regen TE offers, and wise stance is questionable, even if you could always be behind your target (which you rarely can when at long range). I only had around 1400 T attack, so maybe the damage may seem worth it if you wear perfect/near perfect gear since fighter stances are calculated in an unusual way compared to standard precent attack increases.

[gigawuts]

8%? What are your stance skill levels? Do you have element weak hit advance on your techer?

These details are important when comparing these sorts of things.

[Bellion]

FO/FI is probably the most useful class for taking down Elder(if you want loot). They can have high or low damage with the stances, use wise stance when you want to break arms and use brave stance when you want to shock him with Sazonde spam and do minimal damage to have more of a chance to break the top arms.

Don't forget to unequip your weapon if you want to Sazonde spam though.

[Omega-z]

Hmm sound like underestimating TE class.....again.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Snip

thing is rod is fairly good at refiling PP with its melee. I said earlier that we're talking only a few seconds of down time inbetween said barrages if you're not afraid to melee to refill your PP. On boss fights (particularly EQs) where your PB isn't going to fill, FO/TE has 30 seconds of relentless techs and then 90 seconds of cooldown. With PPR they're regen PP a bit faster during that downtime, but I'm not sure it's enough to make up a 44-69% damage boost for those 90 seconds of only slightly faster PP regen when both builds will still need to to attack to refill quickly.

That in mind, one could argue that FO/TE's sustainability is also situational. We'd have to crunch some hard numbers to be able validate the claim that one is better than another.

Btw as a FO/TE with no buffs my JAed Charged Zonde to a weakpoint on an enemy weak to lightning does ~5.3k. With Shifta Drink EX and Shifta this gets closer to 6.5k. WBed for 3x damage we're talking ~16-20k, yes this includes Falz Hands, but it's not exclusive to them. In a Falz Elder fight, a FO/FI can add 69% damage to that for about 28-29k(losing the bonus from elemental weak hit) so we're talking ~45% extra damage per hit in wise stance and ~20% extra damage in brave stance. for 25% of the time FO/TE is casting n stop, but 75% of the time they're almost neck and neck for number of techs cast.

I know this isn't accurate but lets SAY they are casting at the exact same rates that other 75% (because if it takes FO/FI 5-6 seconds to refil their PP via melee, PPR is only getting FO/TE 12 extra PP that's only 12% faster in the end. that's 15-34% more damage from FO/FI depending on stance.

My math may be a bit off, so someone correct it if it is. The question now is in those 30 seconds where FO/TE is machine gunning Foie techs, how many more techs is FO/TE really squeezing out and is it enough to make up for the other 90 seconds?

Point is I think the two builds are based largely on preference and to say one is hands down "the best" may be a bit shortsighted.

[Dextro]

I don't think it's shortsighted at all to say that one is the best.
Once again, you're only talking about damage here (fire and lightning nonetheless).
I already explained why -overall- FO/TE is the more viable class.

Everything you're arguing with above, is under the assumption that all the conditions for FO/FI to achieve maximum damage are automatically being met. In reality, meeting those circumstances is highly situational.
If these conditions stray for even 15 secs of the hypothetical fight we're comparing, then the results would fluctuate wildly in /TE's favour.

So let's just leave FO/FI as it is - a situational subclass that can pull higher numbers than FO/TE when certain conditions are met.

[Coatl]

So let's just leave FO/FI as it is - a situational subclass that can pull higher numbers than FO/TE when certain conditions are met.

But that applies to a lot of class combos, including FO/TE. To say that one is more viable than the other is completely defendant on the situation. And that's how it is for most classes. Would you say FO/TE is better than GU/RA just because it's more viable in certain situations?

[Dextro]

But that applies to a lot of class combos, including FO/TE. To say that one is more viable than the other is completely defendant on the situation. And that's how it is for most classes. Would you say FO/TE is better than GU/RA just because it's more viable in certain situations?

There is no situational variable in the damage of FO/TE, at all. Under every condition it will perform the same.

The same cannot be said of FO/FI, who has higher damage in some situations, and lower damage in others.
And in the situations where FO/FI has the potential to pull higher damage, if the player misfires a tech in the wrong stance due to a number of possible reasons, he's losing the advantage he has.

It's sort of like taking Tech JA Advance over Tech Charge Advance, and then missing a JA. Only the margin of error for stances is higher than JAs.

It's really as simple to understand as that. :-)

It's situational damage, not class choice.
So I'm not going to compare FO/TE to GU/RA, they're different classes and it's irrelevant. I feel like you're just throwing that out for arguments sake :-?

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Cute how you ignored that I already explained how FO/TE's sustained PP advantage was also situational and that in situations where that didn't apply, they only got that massive PP regen for 25% of the time. there was math and explanations and examples of when FO/TE was more effective...etc.

I didn't expect you to actually read it, but you could at least pretend you did instead of digging deeper in.

[ShinMaruku]

Good stuff to know.

[Dextro]

Cute how I already explained how FO/TE's sustained PP advantage was also situational and that in situations where that didn't apply, they only got that massive PP regen for 25% of the time. there was math and explanations and examples of when FO/TE was more effective...etc.

I didn't expect you to actually read it, but you could at least pretend you did instead of digging deeper in.

Thanks for your input.
The condescending remarks are unnecessary and aren't doing your credibility any favors.

Just for clarification - as it seems you might have misunderstood - I outright stated that there is no situational variable in the damage output of a FO/TE.
The Element Weak Hit factor is a constant +20% bonus which is guaranteed with every cast, unlike stance damage which you may lose out on completely due to human error.

I didn't even challenge anything you said in regards to the PP advantage after you made your post. You made a perfectly valid point there and I left it as it is for others to learn from.
In my previous post I was simply advocating all the other benefits that make the class more viable overall.

If you reply again, please let it be a contribution towards the discussion, and not just a personal attack against me. :sleepy:

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Wrong.

There is no time where a Fo/Fi's damage is going to be hit with those sorts of variables. By your own admission PPC only shines when it can supplement its down time with additional PBs. 120% damage for using the right element is far more situational than 144% because you're postioned at the front half of an enemy. The best techs in the game for DPS provided you have the PP are fire with FTSC. You'd have to have a 2x damage mod to make up for being able to cast techs twice as fast and Fo/Te can only keep that up for 30 seconds (25% of a mission considering a 90 second cooldown) before it has to resort playing exactly the same way as Fo/Fi. after that you're talking the right element vs an enemy to get that bonus damage where as Fo/Fi can get a 44% bonus and just spam Zonde techs which are so cheap with BTPPS that your PP nearly regenerates before you actually release your charge. OR you can spam RaFoie/SaFoie with fast charging and obliterate most mobs as they close in. and that's just brave stance. Wise stance gets you even better damage but requires you to attack from behind, so that stance isn't used as often.


Anyway there's no point in discussing this further until you can prove that the damage Fo/Te is doing in 30 seconds is more than enough for it to make up for the damage it isn't doing for the other 90. Until then you're just throwing out personal opinions with only theories as support and demanding that the rest of us call it fact.

Show me the numbers or accept that both builds are viable and a matter of preference/playstyle.

[Dextro]

Wrong.
Show me the numbers or accept that both builds are viable and a matter of preference/playstyle.

Sorry, but what the hell is wrong with your reading comprehension?
Not once did I say that FO/FI isn't viable.. :sleepy:

The statement I made is that FO/TE is the most well-rounded class combination for Force, and I've given a whole list of explanations why.

Why are you asking for numbers? The numbers are there, you just can't comprehend that the application of these numbers is constant on one end, but prone to a decrease due to human error on the other end.
This is a fact, not an opinion.

120% damage for using the right element is far more situational than 144% because you're postioned at the front half of an enemy.

Hahaha
Did you really just say that? Just who is going to take you seriously anymore? :-D

You can't accidentally or unintentionally use the wrong element.
You can accidentally or unintentionally be in the wrong stance/position.
Now, tell me - which factor is more constant?

I'll tell you why your argument fails.
Instead of making your own points and focusing on the strengths of your argument, you're trying to prove me wrong on accounts that I'm clearly not wrong on.
A successful discussion yields results when 2 people, both of whom hold valid points, can acknowledge each other's findings and agree on the pros and cons of each class.

Do you see the difference between us here? I haven't tried to prove you wrong on any account have I?
I work with what you tell me about FO/FI, and point out that while it may have those strengths, you should be wary about what situations they're applicable in. You on the other hand, are not only trying to disregard every single weakness that /FI has, but you're actually trying to bring down /TE strengths. *facepalm*.

In my first reply, I even agreed with you on YOUR statement that "FO/FI excels at burst damage, but FO/TE will win in battles that last longer than the first barrage."
Ever since then, you've changed this viewpoint for a more bias one each and every time. Instead of acknowledging that there's a rightful use for each class, you're now trying to hide the weaknesses of /FI. Look at how your statement evolved:

This is true for fights where the mobs outlast the initial barrage from Fo/Fi. Longer battles Fo/Te will win out.
Here, the excuses to cover up /FI's flaws begin. The deciding factor is no longer the initial barrage, apparently:

thing is rod is fairly good at refiling PP with its melee. We're talking only a few seconds of down time inbetween said barrages
Eventually, you contradict your own viewpoint for the sole purpose of attempting to disprove anything I say. You've even got the audacity to ask ME for the numbers:

prove that the damage Fo/Te is doing in 30 seconds is more than enough for it to make up for the damage it isn't doing for the other 90

So quite frankly, saying that I'm passing my opinion as fact is pretty ridiculous.
You're just a stubborn hypocrite, and if someone happens to not share your point of view, this page long discussion is how it'll end up - even if the other person tries to be completely civil about it.

I'm not going to reply any further.
There is also nothing more I need to provide you with, numerical data or otherwise.
You've got my permission now, to follow up with your deliberately condescending final retort, where you'll desperately try to sound like you're the one who knows what they're talking about; an attempt to paint me as the uninformed idiot.

Good luck with that, and welcome to PSO-W~

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Sorry, but what the hell is wrong with your reading comprehension?
Not once did I say that FO/FI isn't viable.. :sleepy:

The statement I made is that FO/TE is the most well-rounded class combination for Force, and I've given a whole list of explanations why.

Why are you asking for numbers? The numbers are there, you just can't comprehend that the application of these numbers is constant on one end, but prone to a decrease due to human error on the other end.
This is a fact, not an opinion.


Hahaha
Did you really just say that? Just who is going to take you seriously anymore? :-D

You can't accidentally or unintentionally use the wrong element.
You can accidentally or unintentionally be in the wrong stance/position.
Now, tell me - which factor is more constant?

I'll tell you why your argument fails.
Instead of making your own points and focusing on the strengths of your argument, you're trying to prove me wrong on accounts that I'm clearly not wrong in.
A successful discussion yields results when 2 people, both of whom hold valid points, can acknowledge each other's findings and agree on the pros and cons of each class.

Do you see the difference here? I haven't tried to prove you wrong on any account have I? I work with what you tell me about FO/FI, and highlight that while it has those strengths, you should be wary about what situations they're applicable in.

So frankly, saying that I'm passing my opinion as fact is pretty ridiculous. You're such a hypocrite; if someone happens to disagree with anything you say, this page long discussion is how it'll end up, even if the other person is completely civil about it.

Welcome to PSO-W, you'll love it here.

If you're using a stance by accident you're too stupid to play fighter.

And "no you're wrong, Fo/Te is superior" is not trying to prove me wrong how? My claim is that both are equally viable and largely a matter of preference. You're saying that's wrong or else you wouldn't be arguing with me.

Lastly I'm at least supporting my position with data while you just come back with "no you're wrong Fo/Te is better cause I prefer them."

Hope trying to sound clever gets you far in life. Seems that's all you have going for you.

[Spellbinder]

This is probably a stupid question but:

[spoiler-box]http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/b83/193/718/resized/joker-meme-generator-why-so-serious-28939b.jpeg?1333109245.jpg[/spoiler-box]

[TheMagickHat77]

Seriously. I think the question's been answered several times over. O the first page. At the very least, this is somewhat entertaining.

[gigawuts]

fo/fi has better burst damage

fo/te has better sustained damage

if you know that the variables will be accounted for, such as knowing the direction enemies will face before they even spawn in TA, that's a non-issue

this is the fucking definition of balance

yes one might be better on average than the other, but that's the definition of reality - there will not be perfect balance between two different choices

why is this a multi-page fucking "debate"

[ShinMaruku]

Because it's entertaining.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

for the record I play Fo/Te and enjoy it, but I've seen Fo/Fis do ridiculous damage using the wrong elements and cheaper techs like Zan. I realize the argument got a bit out of hand, but I mean how stubborn do you have to be to keep telling someone "no, style or preference has nothing to do with it, my way(which also happens to be your way) is always better"?

How many times will a monster spawn facing away from you and then not turn around?

If a build can take something from 2-3 hits and turn it to 1-2 hits, even if it's not quite as sustainable it's an improvment to DPS during those bursts which is nothing to dismiss, especially if the added damage makes it so that regen times are more frequent.

Anyway it's over now. I wanted to see some hard data demonstrating just how much those 30 seconds in PPC did for Fo/Te's DPS over time vs the damage of Fo/Fi, but all I got was basic theory without application. I'm not going to engage him again, because it's clear he was more interested in the fight than he was in contributing.

[gigawuts]

it's clear he was more interested in the fight than he was in contributing.

Half of PSOW in a nutshell.

[Digital Satyr]

8%? What are your stance skill levels? Do you have element weak hit advance on your techer?

These details are important when comparing these sorts of things.

Yes, I had max stance ups for brave and wise, as well as max elemental weak hit on my techer.

[ShilohSham]

Yes, I had max stance ups for brave and wise, as well as max elemental weak hit on my techer.

so your gigrants can do more?

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Do you have the stances themselves maxed too?

IIRC it's a default 10% damage boost for using the right element. coupled with a 20% boost from elemental weak hit you're looking at 32% vs 58%

With the difference in Te t atk vs Fi T Atk I would expect a 16-17% difference in damage with stances and the ups maxed out.

[ShinMaruku]

Half of PSOW in a nutshell.
80% sadly

[Digital Satyr]

I left the base stances at 5 points because of the diminishing returns. I attacked dagans in the first area of vh ruins, so you could try the same with around 1400 t attack and see if you get similar results. I can imagine the payoff for stances is worthwhile if you have very high T attack, but I use item find gear, so I can't increase my damage any further.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I'm in the process of leveling Fighter now, so I can't test it just yet. I know what you mean about stances, but if you're running fi specifically FOR the stances you may as well add in the extra points.

For wise stance it results in an additional 6-7% on your damage mod and for brave stance it results in 6% more. (1.25x1.3 = 1.625 instead of 1.3x1.3 for 1.69 and 1.15x1.2 = 1.38 instead of 1.2x1.2 for 1.44). doesn't sound like much but when we're expecting 16% damage over elemental weak hit and you're getting 8% you can see why the discrepancy is so large.

[Zorian]

I'm having a hard time deciding between picking these two. I'm guessing both are viable in doing anything.

It does seem like Fo/FI has bigger numbers and could clear normal areas fine but I'm guessing Fo/Te performs much better in boss fights. I mean in reality I'm guessing the differences are not that large in the long run correct?

Fo/Fi seems like it has a lot more you need to do for management thought. If you factor in you need to be in the stance in the right position and manage your PP. Where as with Fo/Te you can sit around and spam techs all day in the back without any worry. Probably could just spam fire on everything even.

Is the extra damage from Fo/Fi really worth all the extra management? What is it buying you in the end?

I'm torn between the two as I might pick up and start playing again and don't have any sub classes really yet. I was mainly playing full Fire Techer before and while I like having some support I'm more going for a Damage Techer.

Is Fo/Te really that much lower on the scale for damage?

[gigawuts]

if 40% isn't good to you, then you shouldn't need to worry about upgrading any gear so long as you play the game.

[Zorian]

if 40% isn't good to you, then you shouldn't need to worry about upgrading any gear so long as you play the game.

Sorry its been a while since I've played. Is it really a 40% damage increase? Does it outweigh the PP issues you'll run into on a boss fight?

I wonder if Fo/Te is better at taking out bosses because they don't need to stop to recharge.

Guess I'm just torn on what to level after I get force up again. I mainly liked playing with the fire techs since them seem to do the most damage regardless of weak element when you factor in the Flame Tech Charge S speed.

Is that factored into this as well?

[Bellion]

It depends on the boss. For Tranmizer, PP shouldn't be a problem since you should be saving for when it exposes the weakpoint. For something like Ragne, attacking with your rod is sufficient for PP recovery since it is so slow and it will most likely be closing in on the FO/FI for dealing good constant damage. Keep a gunslash on you to recover PP as well.
For the tortoise that keeps spinning everywhere, I'd say FO/TE wins this one since it will always change positions until it gets stunned for a moment. Can't really say anything about the other bosses.

Overall, I'd say that FO/FI is only worth it if it allows you to kill certain enemies in one tech where it takes two for a FO/TE. Killing enemies in one hit will fill up your photon blast extremely fast especially if you do it with Rafoie and Flame Tech Charge S. Also, Cetus Proi is a must for FO/FI.

The knuckle dashing is also nice.

[Zorian]

Thanks for your insight.

It sounds like Fo/Fi shines only when it one hits something or on bosses that are not very mobile where you can keep the stance going correctly and recharge the PP.

Maybe I should go with Fo/Te then. Killing fast without downtime is what I'm looking for and perhaps resta/anti on the side for when its needed.

If Fo/Fi only shines when it one hits it makes it sound like its not worth while unless you have the best gear?

[gigawuts]

People REALLY overstate how hard it is to stay in the front 180 degrees of an enemy.

[Bellion]

If Fo/Fi only shines when it one hits it makes it sound like its not worth while unless you have the best gear?

I'd say yes. Other FO/FIs may disagree. Sure, you'd still have higher damage as a FO/FI, but if you're killing in the same amount of casts as a FO/TE the time to kill remains the same.


People REALLY overstate how hard it is to stay in the front 180 degrees of an enemy.

If that post was directed to me, I didn't state that at all. Zesh is a really mobile boss and will constantly change from back to forward positions. Staying in front of any other enemy is simple enough. If that post was not directed to me...carry on. Really, any FO/FI should know that Brave Stance position is easy to maintain.

[Zorian]

People REALLY overstate how hard it is to stay in the front 180 degrees of an enemy.

I dont think its necessarily hard to stand in front of something. I just imagine in situations with other party members the enemies can easily get pushed moved and change who they are looking at.

I'm guessing this happens quite a bit with all the moves that push/pull/knock down/or simply move enemies around yes?

You also have enemies that look like they wouldn't be fun to stand in front of often but I'm guessing you take both wise and brave stance with this Fo/Fi? I'm not sure what the standard FI build is for this.

[Bellion]

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?iYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn000000f ebHoGBfGK0000lb00000ib0000Ib00000ib00000f

Should be the standard FI subclass build.

[Zorian]

Thanks its interesting. I hear a lot of good about the Fo/Fi side on here but anyone out there actually play Fo/Te as damage at all or no?

[Atyl]

Thanks its interesting. I hear a lot of good about the Fo/Fi side on here but anyone out there actually play Fo/Te as damage at all or no?

Anyone who plays FO/anything is playing for damage. FO by itself has enough charged tech power.
FI if you are willing to use the stances.
TE if you want to get convert for convert -> pb -> convert burst or are a generalist.

FI is definitely the min-maxing option at this point because of how hard the game rewards you for being single element on fire or lightning and how stances work with everything. Elemental Weak hit + Element bonus and JA bonus just bring you up to what single element specs have all the time, without counting their bonus of 50% charge or -pp. Extra element mastery points after that do make your damage multiplier slightly higher.
This should change whenever we get masteries 3 and element weak hit 2 assuming they have reasonable pre-reqs.

TE is easier to use and has pp regen (passive and active), some minor stat boosts (+20 tdef, minor tatk, some required points in shifta/deband up), gives a larger radius zondeel, and makes your dark/light techs slightly stronger. If you will absolutely never pull out a gun slash or talis I guess restore rate might be a very noticeable difference for you in the general state. Convert is very beastly where you can abuse it.

TE/FO is similar to FO/TE but it has wands.
TE/FI gives up teching endurance for the highest wand damage while keeping tech damage high. It really did shine when gimegid was bugged. It would be nice if they made uncharged techs a more viable option for damage. I usually just use Deadly Archer as my dump for now if wand gear is charged.

[Digital Satyr]

I only use te/fo for damage purposes, but the only damage advantage would be to a single element, usually dark or light, with up to around 44-73% increase (depending on the application of element weak hit or not). Surprisingly though, my fi/fo was putting out only 18% more damage with wise stance and 1% less damage with brave than my te/fo in the falz hands eq. Is there an inherent damage penalty based on level difference from enemies? I am lvl 47, so I would only gain 15 more T attack from maxing out. Otherwise, everything else between the setups is identical.

[Zorian]

Anyone who plays FO/anything is playing for damage. FO by itself has enough charged tech power.
FI if you are willing to use the stances.
TE if you want to get convert for convert -> pb -> convert burst or are a generalist.

FI is definitely the min-maxing option at this point because of how hard the game rewards you for being single element on fire or lightning and how stances work with everything. Elemental Weak hit + Element bonus and JA bonus just bring you up to what single element specs have all the time, without counting their bonus of 50% charge or -pp. Extra element mastery points after that do make your damage multiplier slightly higher.
This should change whenever we get masteries 3 and element weak hit 2 assuming they have reasonable pre-reqs.

TE is easier to use and has pp regen (passive and active), some minor stat boosts (+20 tdef, minor tatk, some required points in shifta/deband up), gives a larger radius zondeel, and makes your dark/light techs slightly stronger. If you will absolutely never pull out a gun slash or talis I guess restore rate might be a very noticeable difference for you in the general state. Convert is very beastly where you can abuse it.

TE/FO is similar to FO/TE but it has wands.
TE/FI gives up teching endurance for the highest wand damage while keeping tech damage high. It really did shine when gimegid was bugged. It would be nice if they made uncharged techs a more viable option for damage. I usually just use Deadly Archer as my dump for now if wand gear is charged.

Post was very helpful thank you. I want to try out FO/FI I think going full fire. What gear is recommended and mag? Full T-Attack Mag and gear that has extra PP on it? It seems like since you'll need to refill on Fo/Te as well eventually the damage over time from Fo/FI will win out since the extra damage you get more then makes up for the time you need to refill PP.

[Atyl]

It's the same pp regen that every FO has had since the beginning of the game, which is decent to good even under the worst conditions (S Charge 10, no interruptions and Rod only) especially if you have a good pp bank now that 120 is easy stuff. Using any techs but fire with revival takes forever to run out.
I main as TE/FO and TE/FI so it isn't like I hate TE at all, but I'm already used to just using gunslash for PP regen so I usually just go with FO/FI on the rare chance I main FO because the damage is significant for the hassle. I do miss convert badly on banther types though. It makes the fight so much faster.

You are really better off just trying them out. Some people don't get bothered or even like the way stances work. Others hate it with a passion. They add 38-44% and 62-69% total damage at their respective positions.

[Z-0]

For the tortoise that keeps spinning everywhere, I'd say FO/TE wins this one since it will always change positions until it gets stunned for a moment. Can't really say anything about the other bosses.
Despite being extremely mobile, Zesh is actually rather weird in that staying "in front" of him is not difficult at all. When he turns his back to you to use homing missiles, you're still doing Brave Stance damage when behind him. When he's throwing himself around everywhere, you'll be doing Brave Stance damage to him anyway, especially if he just does the charge forward because he turns around again really quickly.

I've had no problems with Zesh as FO/FI, despite him being mobile. Of course there are those instances when you will not do Brave damage, but since you do it so much anyway, it really outweighs the fact you miss it sometimes.

For FO/FI, you want a max T-Atk mag with maybe some DEX to go along with it (~30 at maximum), and your gear should be one of the wing sets with Soul + Technique III + Spirita Boost. It's expensive, but it's most definitely worth it when you reach the end product. If you don't have the money for that, just stick with 2 slotted Soul + Technique III, which isn't very expensive.

[Atyl]

wing sets with Soul + Technique III + Spirita Boost. It's expensive, but it's most definitely worth it when you reach the end product.
Those are good and nice in the fact that you can wear them while leveling as TE too. Other really cheap stop gaps are a lower level Psy set with elder soul or the fegali set + any arm. Quartz is also cheap and decent if you want to survive more than one hit.

[Zorian]

Can I ask why on the Dex? Just to balance damage out? What do you recommend around? 15-20?

[Z-0]

It's mainly just to be able to equip the black wing units, and with the 55 cap, the Falz units, lol.

[Zorian]

Gotcha thanks for the information it was helpful.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

What is this nonsense about rod being bad for restoring PP? it takes only a few second to go from near 0 to full land I don't have to stop what I'm doing, load a new weapon type, shoot just about as many times as I'd have to hit the things with my rod and then switch back. The only reason to consider using a GS to restore PP is if you're too scared to get in close to attack. thing is GiFoie is one of the better techs in the game for group DPS and if you're using a rod you're going to be up close anyway. If you're holding aggro on a boss, it's going to be in your face anyway. I don't know about some other people but I have no qualms with getting in the face of a fang banther and whacking him a few times.


Also I've seen some discussion here about Fo/Fi vs Fo/Te and the benefits of PP regen that Te brings, As someone who plays Fo/Te let me tell you that PP Restorate on its own is pretty much menaingless. 7PP per second instead of 5 is not enough to even begin to keep up with tech spam except zonde with bolt tech PP save and even then only slightly.

Another issue that comes up is stances vs elemental weak hit. Issue here is that elemental weak hit requires you to use the proper element to get that extra 32% damage(10% innate element damage boost x 120% for EWH) while stances give a bonus 44% - 69% depending on where you are in relation to the enemy. Yes stances are higher maintenance but this lets you spec in only one or two elements for really good damage as opposed to spreading out among every element to get pretty good damage when you use the right element. many people tend not to use the right element though since so many techs have their own unique properties. with the right skills Fire techs can be thrown out super fast, and lightning techs are incredibly low cost. Zan can get absurd damage on a Fo/Fi with its boomerang effect and RaZan launches enemies. Some people just really like Dark techs...you get my point. These techs will not get the benefits of elemental weak hit if they're basically not used on the right planet.

Additionally, many people end up just speccing fire tree since it's got so much going for it. if you plan on using fire techs everywhere you go, most of the time you're just running off raw damage, not elemental, so techer skills for damage boosts are worthless.

With PP Convert lvl 6 I can cast Fire techs with S charge maxed and never run out of PP but "never" you have to remember is confined to 30 second bursts that can only occur once every 2 minutes. because the cooldown begins as soon as its activated, this results in 30 seconds of unlimited PP and 90 seconds of roughly the same PP regen as Fo/Fi if you took PP restorate and the exact same regen if you didn't. So for 25% of the time you can cast techs nonstop and the other 75% you're doing less damage than a Fo/Fi and having to stop to refill PP just about as often.

What this means is that for 25% of the time, Fo/Te is out damaging Fo/Fi and for the other 75% Fo/Fi has the leg up. So the question becomes "does the damage that Fo/Te does in those 30 second bursts make up for the lower damage they'll have the rest of the time?" No one I know of has actually done the math on it so I can't rightly say.

One slight advantage that Fo/Te gets though is that due to these bursts, they can sometimes times fill their PB more quickly, making them rather potent in small groups as long as the enemies are coming out in gangs. If the flow of enemies is slow/nonexistant (like when fighting a boss) or things are dying fast enough that you're not getting a ton of hits (larger coordinated MPAs) the PB meter isn't going to fill any faster for Fo/Te than it is for Fo/Fi. In EQs like Falz and Vardha where it's straight to the boss, it's extremely unlikely that you're getting a PB at all and for bosses in other missions, you probably aren't getting a PB either unless you saved one for the fight making this perk a wash in many situations outside of small group play. Neither one is really better for bosses in that sense

For now I'd say they're equally viable and just a matter of style. Fo/Te definitely feels like the "lazier" way to play, though seeing as I prefer Fo/Te over Fo/Fi at this point, that's certainly not a criticism.

One last thing to note:

Elemental Weak Hit show no indication of getting a second boost when the trees are updated again. What I mean is it's not called "Elemental Weak Hit 1" So it's unlikley we'll see an Elemental Weak Hit 2 and seeing as it's a passive skill I have my doubts of it ever getting an "elemental weak hit advance". What DOES have a 1 at the end of it though? PP Restorate. This strongly suggests a PP restorate 2 which will give the same bonus as the first. The end result will be a PP regen x1.96 or nearly 10PP/s That's enough to allow near continuous casting of cheaper techs like Zonde and Zan. Similarly Brave Stance Advance and Wise Stance Advance are also likely to see second iterations taking that 44% and 69% and making them 73% and 120% damage boosts respectively. When that happens, I think the differences between the two will be much more apparent.

[Zorian]

Well from what you're saying above then Fo/Fi will be winning in the long run with the extra power from level 2 stances. Unless they change the stances so they do not work with techs.

PP restore will only get you so far as you have a cap to how fast you can cast. You can only cast so fast but you're damage can go up forever.

[Dextro]

When most of you ask the question of FO/TE or FO/FI, what's the actual agenda behind it? Do you want to full-time one and ignore the other?

In all honesty, I'd say you should try and level both FI and TE, and then switch between them accordingly - depending on what sort of event you're joining.
If you're asking because you only have the time to level one these subs, then I guess TE would be the safer and more 'future-proof' option.*
*Future stat boost/skill tree synergy in areas other than damage alone.
As for damage...
Which one does more damage is a largely dependent on your circumstances (which is why i'd advocate having both).
The easy answer is simply: the combo which enables you to end the fight quicker.

- In the case of general MPA enemies, you should evaluate these factors before choosing your subclass:
[SPOILER-BOX]
1) Skill Tree:
Generally, FO/FI has higher damage potential. How much higher depends on your individual playstyle, and whether it's worth the trade-off is your final call.

For example, I generally tend to use the appropriate element against enemies; Dark in the FC, Lightning on machines, Fire on Darker/Forest/Tundra mobs. The only real place that using the right element might be inconvenient is the Caves. I also alternate skill trees with the appropriate Mastery 1&2, so i make the absolute most out of Element Weak Hit.
However, if I were only spec'd in a single tree, i'd probably favor /FI and spam whatever element the tree favors on mostly everything.

That said, when going /FI you'll generally be in Brave Stance, so depending on whether you maxed out stances or not*, you're looking at an approximate 10-15% damage increase by going /FI over /TE, assuming you play element-matchup. If not, you will deal around 20-25%** higher than going /TE.
If you can work in Wise Stance, then more power to you!
*(A lot of people refuse to go past lv.5 on the skills because of diminishing returns, since they also play FI as a main from time to time).
**The percentages may be slightly off and I'm going by memory here, please correct me if there's a large discrepancy.

In bursts however, it can get a little chaotic and you won't always be in the right position to deal your stance's damage. Keep that in mind, as you may favor having additional pp resources.

2) Your Equipment:
If you're decked out with a high-end weapon & units with T-Atk+60 on each, it's likely that you're capable of killing certain enemies in 1-hit even as a /TE. In this case, going /FI probably isn't worth the hassle unless you need an extra boost for things such as TA enemies.

Also, due to the nature of percentage increases, you will see much better results the higher your base level of T-Atk is. This pretty much goes without saying, but consider this when choosing your sub, as even though they're both suited to different situations, i'd argue that /FI benefits those with higher t-atk a lot more than a 'pickup & play FO' with not much gear investment.
I've seen people play FO/FI and still not be able to 1-shot some enemies, so.... if it's not for you, it's just not for you.[/SPOILER-BOX]

- In the case of Bosses, you should evaluate these factors before choosing your subclass:
[SPOILER-BOX]
1) Convenience of using stances:
Is the enemy's stance positioning going to be predictable (Rockbear, Tranmizer) or pre-determined (Vardha, Falz)?
Other bosses like Quartz, Vol and Banthers can either be easily stunlocked and predictable, or run rampant and become annoying & lengthier battles - pretty much comes down to your party.
Bosses like Cata can be a real b-tch for stances, regardless of well you're playing :-x

2) Utility of /TE's PP advantage:
If you're fighting a Tranmizer as a group for example, you can pretty much just idle around waiting for the weakspot, wait for a RA to pop a wb and bam, dead in a couple of casts. In this case /TE would be absolutely outclassed.
If you're soloing, or without a RA however, the PP Convert would allow you to rapid-cast on it's center while it doesn't have it's core exposed, which might lead to a quicker victory overall.

Eventually, both /TE and /FI will deplete their resources and have to melee for pp. And while it's down to preference whether you use a Rod or Gunslash, some enemies make it pretty inconvenient for you to recover pp due to their maneuverability.
Snow/Forest kitties will often be miles away from you, the same goes for Zesh. Staying close to Tranmizer or Wolga is easy, but they're so aggresive that you'll spend a lot of time mirage escaping. Cata and Gwana might decide to burrow non-stop, Quartz might escape stunlock and be dashing everywhere, and anyone who's tried to build up a Chain Trigger on Falz Hands knows how prone to just randomly zipping across the map and blindsiding you they can be.
The point is... the more of a hassle it is to regain pp once it's depleted, the more desired PP Convert (and Restorate to a lesser extent) becomes. If you're dreading that scenario, maybe it's best to go /TE. You may very well end the fight with the extra techs you can put out.

Sometimes it's just out of your control:
In a Falz Hands fight, the fight is sometimes over in under a minute. In times like that, going /FI lets me contribute the most damage as I wouldn't even face running out of pp by the end of that fight.
However, sometimes the fights last 120-180 secs, in this case going /TE, popping a convert and continuing to bombard the weak point with no downtime and at a safe distance leads me to a quicker victory than going /FI, closing the distance to melee for pp, mirage escaping a few times out of all the chaos, then resuming my damage.[/SPOILER-BOX]

Of course, providing accurate math for PP Convert burst-damage VS Overall higher stance damage is a little tricky to evaluate. I'd be interested in this though.
But in general, just pick the sub that allows you to deal consistently higher damage. I hope this little run down will help out a little.

[ShinMaruku]

I'd rock Fo/Te when I am in a place where I can dance with the elemental weaknesses. Generally I like Soloing and TA so I would assume massive burst would serve me well. I don't think much can survive a concentrated assault that Fo/Fi can deal.

[UnLucky]

What is this nonsense about rod being bad for restoring PP?
It's definitely better if there are multiple targets nearby. The rod hit has some stun to it, and with an AoE like Gifoie going you're sitting pretty. But with even a bit of distance between you, gunslash is faster on a single target, and really safe. I do a bit of both. Weapon switching gets pretty bad if it's laggy, though.


As someone who plays Fo/Te let me tell you that PP Restorate on its own is pretty much meaningless.It's nice to have and makes PP Convert even better, but it's no game breaker, for sure.


Another issue that comes up is stances vs elemental weak hit. Yeah, you really need the mastery as well to really make use of it, so unless you've got a bunch of spare skill trees to juggle, you're not even going to get close to stances, especially not for the point investment.


What this means is that for 25% of the time, Fo/Te is out damaging Fo/Fi and for the other 75% Fo/Fi has the leg up.With weaker shots per cast, though, and it's specifically the PP regen portion of that 30s window that they're better. Can you normally regain a full bar of PP in the same amount of time as you could expend it? Never really timed it. So I guess it's like, a FO/TE could get maybe twice as many casts off a quarter of the time, for +25% average damage. On top of the 132% for elemental weakness and Weak Hit, that's 165% overall. But really depending on how fast you can break open faces for the PP inside, this could be way off.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Well I have PP convert at 6 because it's the only way I can keep my meter constant with Flame Tech S Charge at 10. So yeah for that 30 seconds fire techs are flying every other second without stopping. The rest of the time though I'm doing what the Fo/Fis are doing for less damage. Really need to do some real damage calculation to be able to say for sure which one is doing more in that 2 minute spread.

EDIT:

Anyway I feel the whole process of switching and shooting then switching back to be time consuming and tedious. Even as a Fo I like being right in the thick of things so I have no problem finding things to hit to restore PP. Usually my downtime, rare as it is, is mere seconds.

[Aine]

For TAs and boss runs, FoFi.
http://nicotter.net/watch/sm19724645

For MPAs where you're aiming mostly for bursts, I'd go with FoTe. With 12 people everything melts just as fast, and since you're sticking together you rarely need the extra mobility.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Snip



I actually agree with most of this. I intended to reply to add/offer my input but it's late. I'll be sure to use respond tomorrow


Well from what you're saying above then Fo/Fi will be winning in the long run with the extra power from level 2 stances. Unless they change the stances so they do not work with techs.

PP restore will only get you so far as you have a cap to how fast you can cast. You can only cast so fast but you're damage can go up forever.

Forgot to reply to this. Actually what I'm saying is Fo/Fi as time goes will be even more geared for burst damage while Fo/Te will become even more geared towards constant damage to the point the two classes will be two very different entities. Sure the numbers wont be as high but if all but fire techs can be cast without restrictions, that does a lot for DPS. You may have a limit to how fast you can cast, but Fo/Fi will still have to take breaks where it's possible that Fo/Te eventually won't. Was more food for thought rather than trying to draw a line in the sand.

[ShinMaruku]

What affixing would be best for a Fo/Fi and Fo/TE need?

[Seravi Edalborez]

What affixing would be best for a Fo/Fi and Fo/TE need?

-One of the T-ATK souls (Elder, Ragne, or Wolga) I'd say Elder personally.
-Technique III
-(Optional, sort of expensive) Spirita Boost

That's the cookie cutter type affix for most classes anyways.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

stamina II/III is also nice if you wanna be able to take a few more hits

[ShinMaruku]

I think I can work to Elder affix. I'll look into the others. :)

[SociableTyrannosaur]

yeah elder affix is the easy one, wolga by far the worst. I dont use it because with my build I have all the PP I can use (Fo/Te) and prefer to add something to make it harder to get to my soft and chewy center.

[Gama]

i recently got lucky and aquired a Elysion

is there any FO/FI TE/FI builds that would be good?

i have 4 mags of each damage type.

TE/FI could use a double saber efectively?

FO/FI would be good?

its a bit outside of my confort zone "FO/TE" or "TE/FO"

i can remake my trees if necessary. think i need a breath of fresh air on my class.

[ChiffonFairchild]

i recently got lucky and aquired a Elysion

is there any FO/FI TE/FI builds that would be good?

i have 4 mags of each damage type.

TE/FI could use a double saber efectively?

FO/FI would be good?

its a bit outside of my confort zone "FO/TE" or "TE/FO"

i can remake my trees if necessary. think i need a breath of fresh air on my class.

Congrats! I myself got an Elysion not too long ago and am +2 away from pot 3 (have fun with that ;-;). Anywho, for FO/FI you can either go fire or lightning tree based on your preference. Damage is great as FO/FI and you don't have to worry about PP all too much unless you solo a lot. Even then it's not much an issue.
Can check out the thread I made asking about builds as well around Elysion: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215915 (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215915)

[moeri]

Just wanted to point out:


01-13-2013, 02:30 AM

Almost a year long necro.

[Gama]

Just wanted to point out:



Almost a year long necro.

oh i was on my phone, didn't notice! sorry!

[pkemr4]

Te/Hu if you like meleeing and using techs.