Grinding weapons (Or rather losing a lot of Meseta).

[SammyKiller]

Just wanted to make a thread about how much you spend on grinding your weapons on a daily basis, I got an Elder Rifle earlier today (I just got back to the game) and Already got it to +8 with about a 350k meseta loss and 150 grinders, not bad honestly.

Share your experiences with everyone and vent if you must.. for Dudu is an evil-doer and work of sin! :D

[Skye-Fox713]

If i'm trying to grind a 7* rare and above I have yet to get past a +8. He also seams to be compleatly inept at ability grinding. Though so far I'd say I average about 40-50 grinders on getting my rares to +8 with about 80-100k spent in meseta. I also have an elder rifle but I don't like the look of it and won't be using it over my lambda strauss, it was fairly painless to get it to a +5 but I stopped there because it was probably gonna be failure after failure grinding it up, not to metion adding abilities to it.

[Ryock]

Honestly, I don't generally spend much on any of my weapons whatsoever, save for one weapon I own, being my lambda twin daggers(probably around 2 mil down the drain.) This is because I follow two straight rules for myself though. Never buy any grinders, and stop if it bounces between 4-7 a whole lot. On average, I spend somewhere around... 100k meseta if I attempt to upgrade something to +8, +9, and +10. Average out around 50-100 grinders depending if I'm shooting for +10 or not.

I find it stupidly hilarious though the noise blower I have gives me no trouble, but my lambda daggers made sure I used up all 300 of my grinders.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I used to have a really good system before 10* weapons. Now I dont spend much at all. I'm actually waiting for the next big update which is supposed to reduce the number of grinders needed.

[Exxy]

just pure luck

[SPOILER-BOX]
2012-12-29T02:48:06 1094 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+1 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:06 1095 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:10 1096 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+2 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:10 1097 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:13 1098 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+3 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:13 1099 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:16 1100 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+4 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:16 1101 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:20 1102 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+5 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:20 1103 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:23 1104 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+6 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:23 1105 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:27 1106 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+7 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:27 1107 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:30 1108 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+8 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:30 1109 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:33 1112 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+9 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:33 1113 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:36 1114 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+10 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:36 1115 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
[/SPOILER-BOX]

Spended 44,000 Mesetas, and 30 grinders and not even a failure

[Seravi Edalborez]

I'm actually waiting for the next big update which is supposed to reduce the number of grinders needed.

This. Though I keep succumbing to temptation and trying a grind or two. Then Dudu took 200 grinders to put me right back where I started.

[SammyKiller]

just pure luck

[SPOILER-BOX]
2012-12-29T02:48:06 1094 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+1 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:06 1095 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:10 1096 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+2 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:10 1097 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:13 1098 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+3 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:13 1099 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:16 1100 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+4 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:16 1101 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:20 1102 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+5 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:20 1103 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:23 1104 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+6 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:23 1105 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:27 1106 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+7 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:27 1107 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:30 1108 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+8 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:30 1109 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:33 1112 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+9 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:33 1113 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-29T02:48:36 1114 [Grind(success) +1] 10714468 Exxy エルダーライフル+10 attr:Fire(29)
2012-12-29T02:48:36 1115 :Consume 10714468 Exxy グラインダー Num(3)
[/SPOILER-BOX]

Spended 44,000 Mesetas, and 30 grinders and not even a failure

Props to you sir!, that is one fine looking grinder log.. Beautiful.

[Kirine]

My goal is to grind to +7-8 then use protection full all the way to +10. This applies to 9+ star weapons.

Otherwise, 8 and below, you can naturally grind to +10.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

This. Though I keep succumbing to temptation and trying a grind or two. Then Dudu took 200 grinders to put me right back where I started.

Had something similar happen =/ Dudu is made of hate.


My goal is to grind to +7-8 then use protection full all the way to +10. This applies to 9+ star weapons.

Otherwise, 8 and below, you can naturally grind to +10.

I do this with 10* and above. 9 and below I do naturally.

[.Jack]

I grind a few things to 10 each day and go through a stack or two of -1 grind protects a week, I'd say this is average for me although sometimes if wonders off. Once I get it to +8 I start using the grind protectors.

7* weapons an average of 50-100 grinders. Cost around 500k - 1.5mill.
8* weapons an average of 100-200 grinders. Cost around 2 - 4mill.
9* weapons an average of 150-300 grinders. Cost around 3 - 5mill.

[Gama]

in the beguining of the game

soul eater

around 4ook to grind to 10

[Syklo]

I usually grind until one level after the first "Danger (-2)" risk, or +7 (Which ever is first)

Otherwise I don't bother wasting my money+grinders.

Not until i get some 10*s that i can use.

[Soultrigger]

I grind a few things to 10 each day and go through a stack or two of -1 grind protects a week, I'd say this is average for me although sometimes if wonders off. Once I get it to +8 I start using the grind protectors.

7* weapons an average of 50-100 grinders. Cost around 500k - 1.5mill.
8* weapons an average of 100-200 grinders. Cost around 2 - 4mill.
9* weapons an average of 150-300 grinders. Cost around 3 - 5mill.

Pretty much this. 10*s have varied a lot for me since I normally go with Full Protects at +9 instead of purely -1, but with success at +10 being about 1/3 chance, it's not really that much of a surprise the cost can be around anywhere from 4mil~8mil.

[TheszNuts]

Which one is easier? Weapons or armor?

[Bellion]

Which one is easier? Weapons or armor?

Let's just say a 10* armor is about as easy as grinding a 6* weapon or less. More penalty for the armor, but about the same chances for success.

[BIG OLAF]

Grinding in this game is basically one of the shittiest things to ever exist in any game, honestly. The risk:reward ratio is horrendous. It's all a ploy to try and coerce the players into buying AC, like everything else in this game.

Failing your grinding too much? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for items to help you grind your weapons!

Can't get good drops? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for some items to help increase the drop rates!

Found a good weapon in an element you don't need? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for some items to change your weapon's element!

Bored of your character's clothes? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for some new outfits!

*not guaranteed

It's pretty obvious what SEGA's doing with this game's F2P model, specifically. Making every aspect the game as unforgiving as possible to make desperate players utilize the cash shop.

[Syklo]

Grinding in this game is basically one of the shittiest things to ever exist in any game, honestly. The risk:reward ratio is horrendous. It's all a ploy to try and coerce the players into buying AC, like everything else in this game.

Failing your grinding too much? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for items to help you grind your weapons!

Can't get good drops? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for some items to help increase the drop rates!

Found a good weapon in an element you don't need? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for some items to change your weapon's element!

Bored of your character's clothes? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for some new outfits!

*not guaranteed

It's pretty obvious what SEGA's doing with this game's F2P model, specifically. Making every aspect the game as unforgiving as possible to make desperate players utilize the cash shop.
It's better than grinding to risk losing your weapon ENTIRELY, unlike most games I've played.

[MetalDude]

Kind of missing the point. It's a complete shit system that AC can't even guarantee success in. From a F2P standpoint, it's a terribly done system. Payer and non-payer alike have to deal with how stupid it is.

[Rien]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/GFb8B.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[NoiseHERO]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/GFb8B.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

best fanart

[Seravi Edalborez]

Kind of missing the point. It's a complete shit system that AC can't even guarantee success in. From a F2P standpoint, it's a terribly done system. Payer and non-payer alike have to deal with how stupid it is.

This is sort of going to go off into a tangent, but Mass Effect 3's multiplayer is basically the same thing. You either play the game for credits to buy booster packs, or pay real money to get booster packs. You're not paying for guarantees, you're just trading money for less time spent.

This system is actually great for SEGA because they know people will buy AC even when results are not guaranteed. It doesn't really matter that you're not getting a guarantee to them. Someone will buy it.

Disclaimer: I don't -like- the system. Just giving a reason for why it ain't gonna change.

[Magus_84]

Grinding in this game is basically one of the shittiest things to ever exist in any game, honestly. The risk:reward ratio is horrendous. It's all a ploy to try and coerce the players into buying AC, like everything else in this game.

Failing your grinding too much? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for items to help you grind your weapons!

Can't get good drops? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for some items to help increase the drop rates!

Found a good weapon in an element you don't need? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for some items to change your weapon's element!

Bored of your character's clothes? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for some new outfits!

*not guaranteed

It's pretty obvious what SEGA's doing with this game's F2P model, specifically. Making every aspect the game as unforgiving as possible to make desperate players utilize the cash shop.

Not to be confused with defending it, but I've seen and played worse. At least stuff doesn't permanently break.

Though it's sad when a game's system makes me miss Champions Online's Questionite system. And I hate Questionite.

[Rien]

best fanart

It's not art

It's a fangame made using one of those RPG Maker programs

It's an adult game though so I won't show too much/anything nsfw

[Cloudstrife xx]

ill be honest i prefered jp psi's gc system atleast you could just spend gc to make sure it was 8/10 and 40% and you could just out right pay gc to change element this spin the ac scratch to get chance at making grinding easier etc etc is utter bull.

[Arika]

I grind a few things to 10 each day and go through a stack or two of -1 grind protects a week, I'd say this is average for me although sometimes if wonders off. Once I get it to +8 I start using the grind protectors.

7* weapons an average of 50-100 grinders. Cost around 500k - 1.5mill.
8* weapons an average of 100-200 grinders. Cost around 2 - 4mill.
9* weapons an average of 150-300 grinders. Cost around 3 - 5mill.

this sound about right in my experience,
and usually for 10* it would require grind protector (full) which cost 1 mil per attempt, so the cost become more varied. but by average, it will require around 300 grinders to get to +9, then after that throw in a few full protector will yield a +10.
So totally it is 5 mil + 2-3 protector (full) as the cost.

[Lumpen Thingy]

I hate this system but hated PSU's system more in just about every way possible

[NoiseHERO]

So....

I just lost 200 grinders going from +8

to +3

I was simply trying to settle with +9

But by the time I spent 100 grinders, the struggle was trying to get to +8 again.

On top of the 10 mil worth of grinders added up from the past.

I-is this weapon broken or something...? I don't understand...

[Seany1990]

I hate this system but hated PSU's system more in just about every way possible

Vanilla PSU yes but I preferred AotI's over all of them

[Lumpen Thingy]

Vanilla PSU yes but I preferred AotI's over all of them
so you liked your weapons breaking so they can never ever become good ever? or are you talking about the JP version where you pay to win?

[gigawuts]

This "at least it doesn't break" system is literally the worst thing I've seen the PS community say. As though, somehow, it makes everything good.

No. They are both bad. Stop it. You are not helping, you're just going to make Sega think this shit's fine. Better by comparison does not mean good, and that's if it even actually IS better by comparison. I have yet to see numbers demonstrating less time spent grinding for money is required on average.

I ground a latria rain without failures, but before that I needed 301 attempts to grind up a noise blower. This is not okay. If it was PSU's sytem and the item broke, I'd just buy another one and try again.

The only time it's okay to say "at least it doesn't break" is when we're talking about items so rare getting another is simply not happening - something like the psycho wand.

[Xaeris]

I don't think I saw anyone actually say it was good?

[gigawuts]

That depends. Without fail, when talking about how direly terrible an RNG system is or can be, someone shows up and says "at least it's not X."

This does two things in a "discussion" about something like this:
1. Implies you should be content that it's not worse
2. Stops there. That train of thought leads nowhere whatsoever. It contributes nothing, and depending on the phrasing even says it's a good thing that it's not worse. As in, it's good it's not worse. If this is the attitude that the community at large adopts, all Sega will see is the "It's good-" part.

Don't like something about an F2P game? Only way to get it changed is to get people to make a racket. Rabble rabble rabble.

[Grifs Astoni]

Upgrading my Lambda Tigredor to LVL3 JA costed me a few million meseta (a friend even helped me voluntarily and it was still a pain). So far I still think it's worth it though, just like how my old Tigredor lasted from the early days of PSO2 until Ruins.

Try to use those -1 penalty reduction and 5% additional success rate items. The results weren't as bad as using grinders only.

At the moment, I literally have nothing else to spend on.

[Karen Erra]

grinding on PSO2 is still better than on PSU in my eyes. No broken weapons >:0

[Ezodagrom]

Failing your grinding too much? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for items to help you grind your weapons!

Can't get good drops? Well, if you buy some AC, you can try the scratch drawings* for some items to help increase the drop rates!
Was checking the AC scratch, the only grinding related item in the scratch is the grind protection. When it comes to improving success rate, items for this are available in the FUN scratch and Excube shop (for the ridiculous amount of 20 Excubes...).

About the item to improve drop rates, the one available in the Excube shop (250%) is better than the one in the AC scratch (200%).

I do agree that the grinding system in PSO2 is awful, especially after they added the weapon potential system. ._.

[BIG OLAF]

Was checking the AC scratch, the only grinding related item in the scratch is the grind protection. When it comes to improving success rate, items for this are available in the FUN scratch and Excube shop (for the ridiculous amount of 20 Excubes...).

About the item to improve drop rates, the one available in the Excube shop (250%) is better than the one in the AC scratch (200%).

I understand, but those are mostly moot points, since some of those weren't available when the game first launched. As for the items in the FUN scratch, that's also indirectly tied to AC (you get more FUN if you're a premium member, ergo, if you spend AC on a Premium ticket, you're "more likely" to get those grinding items from the FUN scratch).

The fact of the matter is, they make the system so aggravating and unforgiving, and then include those items in the scratch to entice you to spend real money spin it. It's pretty blatant, and most people don't seem to mind terribly.

[Jakosifer]

grinding on PSO2 is still better than on PSU in my eyes. No broken weapons >:0

It's better.
It's still absolute shit.

The original PSO did grinding the best, literally the only thing from that game that I would have wanted to make a return and it didn't. A system designed to make players desperate enough to resort to P2W tactics is a terribly flawed system, but effective business wise so long as enough people are A-Okay with getting buttpumped by a video game.

As for my own grinding luck; to stay on track with the OP... My grinding luck is nonexistent. I can find all of the rares I want nothing to do with (and can't give to people who do, which to me would be worth my money), but grinding the stuff I want to make use of? 8 mil to get to +8, another 3 mil getting to +5. :lol:

This game needs to chill da fuckout wit dis system, bout to nut up and go ham and cheese, grits and gravy, sugar and spice, everything nice in this bitch... :wacko:

[Ezodagrom]

I understand, but those are mostly moot points, since some of those weren't available when the game first launched. As for the items in the FUN scratch, that's also indirectly tied to AC (you get more FUN if you're a premium member, ergo, if you spend AC on a Premium ticket, you're "more likely" to get those grinding items from the FUN scratch).

The fact of the matter is, they make the system so aggravating and unforgiving, and then include those items in the scratch to entice you to spend real money spin it. It's pretty blatant, and most people don't seem to mind terribly.
Well, I don't think there was much need for grinding back when the game was launched though (it could be argued that there isn't that much need for grinding right now either, or at least for grinding weapons all the way to +10).
You're right about the FUN scratch part though. ^^;

But, the grinding system is indeed rather awful the way it is now and is seriously needing some changes somehow, either more forgiving grind rates (maybe grinding rates similar to units), or even a complete overhaul of the grinding system, dunno.
I don't even want to imagine how hard it will be to grind 13~15 star weapons if nothing changes about the system. o-o;

[gigawuts]

How to fix grinding: lost levels do not reduce damage

ta da

your +9 going to +1 does not make your weapon worse when you go broke, but you still have to battle up to +9 again to +10 it

in fact, doing the latent thing should also not reduce the damage, but---

[The Walrus]

They could just make it so that you can't lose levels on the weapon. Such a simple change would make it so much more tolerable

[gigawuts]

Oh, I agree, but Sega seems to need their precious gambling mechanics.

[The Walrus]

They could just make it fail a little more often then. Hell they could even add AC items to boost the chance of success :D

[Dextro]

It'd be pretty weird seeing a weapon at +4, +8 and +2 with the same damage value ^^;

I'm gonna throw in a random idea too:
If grinding a weapon to the next level required filling up a sort of progress bar represented by 0-100%.
A successful grind would give the full 100% and increase the level by 1, as it does now.
A failed grind would still fill up the bar by 20-40% (just an example, it can be any # really.)

Eventually it'll reach 100% and increase by +1. This way you're still making progress bit by bit whenever you throw grinders at something, because the main annoyance is throwing hundreds of grinders at something and either making no progress or going backwards :/

As much as I hate the grinding system, I have to admit i'm totally addicted to it :-D The highs are high and the lows are.... rage-quittingly low.

[Zeota]

I understand money sinks are necessary in these kinds of games but this is just horrid execution.

[Z-0]

I'm not even sure if grinding is a money sink, because not much meseta actually flows out of the system. Most of it just goes to other players (price of grinders, price of locks, boosters, etc.). Of course everytime meseta is spent some is weeded out, but I highly doubt it's enough.

I mean AC costumes are 210k now. w

[Alenoir]

210k for a costume is the norm when it's during the "dry" weeks. =v= Once a new scratch happens it will drop back down to 168k-ish.

[dablacksephiroth]

I'm not even sure if grinding is a money sink, because not much meseta actually flows out of the system. Most of it just goes to other players (price of grinders, price of locks, boosters, etc.). Of course everytime meseta is spent some is weeded out, but I highly doubt it's enough.

I mean AC costumes are 210k now. w
Shut up, Zyn!

It's a money sink when your grinders have more value than the actual meseta cost to grind. 30k+ per grind on 9*+. That's meseta you won't be earning from other players now that Dudu has discarded all 999 you once had in inventory.

[gigawuts]

Shut up, Zyn!

It's a money sink when your grinders have more value than the actual meseta cost to grind. 30k+ per grind on 9*+. That's meseta you won't be earning from other players now that Dudu has discarded all 999 you once had in inventory.

You don't know what a money sink is, do you?

[Heat Haze]

Stopping inflation they said. Lies.

That said, I vaguely remember them saying something like "the game is continually changing" and "we'll continue to evaluate the economy". All liiiieeeesssss.

On topic though, threw 260 grinders at Welfare Double Saber and it's at +3 right now. Wouldn't be a problem if I could equip Noise Blower as a HU with a FI subbed; but lolhorrible clumsy all-class weapon system.

A money sink (that works, mind you*) would be nice. AC costumes going to 210k now because of those affix and grind 20%s; which I personally don't think help at all as the RNG can still manage to screw you over.

*Taking money away from the game itself. Not you losing money to another player buying your grinders and protections; that money is still in game (minus the tax).

[dablacksephiroth]

You don't know what a money sink is, do you?

I know damn well what a fucking money sink is. Do you? Now, once you put out your definition, tell me then that the methods of Dudu and EX drinks are not sinks.

[gigawuts]

Actually, I would really like to hear your definition first.

[Z-0]

I did kind of word it wrong.

Dudu is a money sink, just a highly inefficient one.

[dablacksephiroth]

Actually, I would really like to hear your definition first.

It's when, like this time when I used to spend most of my days on the playground.

Chillin' out, maxin', relaxin' all cool. I was shootin' some B-ball outside of my school.

When a couple of guys, they were up to no good. So they started makin' trouble in my neighborhood.

Man, I got in ONE little fight and my mom got scared... and said "You're movin' with your Z-0 and Gigawuts in Bel-air"...

So I whistled for a cab and when it came near.. the license plate had "Fresh" and there was even DICE in the mirror!!

But anyway, I could say this cab was weird but nahhh... Yo Home!! TO Belair!

[Seravi Edalborez]

COs, meseta drops, selling to NPCs: Money generated.

Player shops: Money traded.

Dudu, Drinks, (anything else really?): Money sink.

There's relatively little sinkage here, but then there's the AC factor in player shops (both shops themselves and items therein) so SEGA probably doesn't care as much about Dudu's not-as-effective sink.

[Ezodagrom]

How to fix grinding: lost levels do not reduce damage

ta da

your +9 going to +1 does not make your weapon worse when you go broke, but you still have to battle up to +9 again to +10 it

in fact, doing the latent thing should also not reduce the damage, but---
That is a rather nice idea, pitty that no one came up with such an idea when Kion was translating stuff for the survey. :\


It'd be pretty weird seeing a weapon at +4, +8 and +2 with the same damage value ^^;
Well, weapons could be shown as something like アリスティン+4/8, where 4 is the current grind value of the weapon, and 8 is the highest it ever reached (and also the value of the current stats of the weapon).

[Alenoir]

Dudu, Drinks, (anything else really?): Money sink.

The off chance (read: high) that you lose more than one slot on your rare weapon/unit. But most people doesn't need to do attribute transfer a whole lot, so it's not as good of a sink overall.

[gigawuts]

Affixing, grinding, and element boosting are all horrifically ineffective money sinks. Of the ~40k you can expect to pay for a grind attempt on a 10*, only 4k is actually removed from the game. 36k is shifted to other players.

But...that's the point, isn't it? The value of meseta drops -> Items in limited supply sell for more -> If you're not keeping up with inflation you're "losing" meseta -> Do AC gold scratch today!

[Shinmarizu]

Just going to throw my 2 cents in.

As far as I am aware, Sega only promotes the circulation of meseta; not the generation or removal of it. Their supposed attempts to 'evaluate/adjust the economy' are complete and utter BS.

The inflation problem in PSO2 is huge, and growing. Considering meseta is generated by the billions daily by everyone playing, there is far too much of it floating around. Its value relative to weapons and units is remarkably low, and decreasing by the day. That's why prices for these things are steadily rising. The AC goods only promote circulation further, and with everyone 'buying in,' the house continues to win.

Back on topic, though:

One idea I've discussed with others on PSO2, which may have been mentioned previously, is to make Dudu a far better sink by allowing an alternative method of grinding:
1) guaranteed grind success (no RNG)
2) at larger cost, and with exponential increase in required meseta and grinders for successive grinds.

I haven't worked out all the repercussions for this suggestion, but it would at the very least promote more removal of meseta from circulation. Players will still grind out their COs, but the meseta will go into something worthwhile instead of piling up in their coffers. While there will be negative consequences on the player-driven market as well, I would think that players would appreciate that their time spent on this game leads to consistent character improvement. Effort would be rewarded. People would be encouraged to do things like unlock latent abilities because, with guaranteed success, it would eventually be within their means.

Of course, there is a lot of potential debate and discussion in this. But it makes some sense, at least to me. But Sega's not going to do something that makes SENSE, right?

(Unfortunately, when it comes to affixing, a guaranteed process would not promote the removal of items from circulating in player shops, and since this is also a major part of meseta and item circulation as well..... ah crap. Need to think about this one some more....)

[jooozek]

TACOs are the bane of this economy. SEGA BOO BOOOO BOOOOOOOOO

[BIG OLAF]

If I could fix the grinding system, I would just make Grinders 'rare' (as in, about the same drop chance as a 10* unit from Ragne/Vader/Banther), and untradable. But, they never fail, and the cost of grinding would be a bit higher, and proportionate to the star-rating of the weapon/unit (like in PSP2/i). I think that's a simple solution that would work.

[Shinmarizu]

If I could fix the grinding system, I would just make Grinders 'rare' (as in, about the same drop chance as a 10* unit from Ragne/Vader/Banther), and untradable. But, they never fail, and the cost of grinding would be a bit higher. I think that's a simple solution that would work.

PSO's grinders. That would work quite well, actually. This would remove the problems associated with grinders on the market, eliminate the RNG, and increase the longevity of rare weapons. It would also limit the power creep (which is a huge issue in this game for me anyways) and make the game more challenging.

Your solution reminds me of the good ol' days where grinders were rare and precious.

The only counterpoint I could make is that the benefit of one grind would have to be substantial, in order to help justify their rarity. (Then again, PSO's grinders did about the same there as they do here in PSO2...)

[gigawuts]

If sega ACTUALLY wants to stabilize the economy, they'll make weapons require 1 grinder (if not zero) and instead shift the cost into the fee.

They've created a system, knowingly or not, that is HIGHLY prone to market fluctuations with every major content update. Remember when grinders were 3k, and we thought that was a lot? They slowly crept up, but suddenly SOARED with the wave of lambda weapons, 10*'s, and 6*'s.

This is for a pretty simple reason: Everyone was grinding new items. Everyone using uncommons, everyone using rares, everyone that simply wanted to bulk up their defense with 10* units, everyone period.

And everyone had to pay more to do it.

This was in addition to new levels giving diminishing returns on stats, meaning weapons and skills were where you'd get your new offensive power. Also, if you optimized your tree to the very last SP your options would be limited with the new skills (while the game would be balanced under the assumption of you having something semi-optimal), but lol.

So when they tried to give out a piddly 99 grinders for christmas, and then another 40 or 50 within a few days of that, the writing was on the wall. They knew this system was broken. And no, that wasn't fixing it. This reduction of grinders needed is also a temporary fix. 10*'s are the new 9*'s, except you need to be lucky to get them. You can't buy them pre-ground either, which was something many people did to get around the RNG. The cost of grinding will go down for the short term, yes, but when sega giveth sega taketh away. I'm betting 10*'s will be made tradable and 11*'s will be the new 10*'s. Lambda 10*'s will come in, and not hold a candle to 11*'s. 12*'s will probably stay at current 11* levels for a while. This will probably come after the chrome dragon.

It's what they've already done, and it's a fairly ordinary tactic. It's essentially an arms race. Players ask for X to be more common or less costly or whatnot, Sega gives them X but simultaneously makes X not nearly as effective as Y...with Y having identical or near identical restrictions to what X used to when players were asking for changes - plus some new ones like being account bound and rarer.

[Heat Haze]

I forgot about the whole 99 Grinders thing.

Too bad that's about as effective as throwing a bucket of water at a brush fire.

That said though, it's hard to come up with a reasonable solution that would appeal to everyone ("whiny" elitists anyway). Well, you can't please everyone to begin with.

[gigawuts]

No, of course not. If they perfected the grinding system so it was rainbows and unicorns and never frustrated anyone with failures but was also still not too easy/cheap/whatever, people would complain that they don't feel any better than anyone else because everyone had +10 on some of their weapons.

Exactly the same way people genuinely complained that tigredors were too common, and they didn't feel special for having one anymore.

[Shinmarizu]

Agreed. The plateau on stat growth requiring improved gear to mitigate any power differences is already here. Unfortunately we've all, knowingly or not, subscribed to this broken and perpetuating system... all made the worse considering the increasing list of flaws Sega has built into this game.


No, of course not. If they perfected the grinding system so it was rainbows and unicorns and never frustrated anyone with failures but was also still not too easy/cheap/whatever, people would complain that they don't feel any better than anyone else because everyone had +10 on some of their weapons.

Exactly the same way people genuinely complained that tigredors were too common, and they didn't feel special for having one anymore.

This flaw being one of them. And to think we're eventually going to get 15* weapons and units....

[Xaeris]

Well **** those people; no one who perceives worth and value in terms of what other people don't have as opposed to what they have needs to be taken seriously for anything ever.

[Heat Haze]

No, of course not. If they perfected the grinding system so it was rainbows and unicorns and never frustrated anyone with failures but was also still not too easy/cheap/whatever, people would complain that they don't feel any better than anyone else because everyone had +10 on some of their weapons.

Exactly the same way people genuinely complained that tigredors were too common, and they didn't feel special for having one anymore.
Right. We can't have nice things because people must feel 'special' all the damn time.

Pretty sure that was also the reason why we can't sell/trade 10* weapons to begin with. "It's not special finding rares anymore"

Screw those people.

But anyway, I personally have fair luck with grinding. A high variance if you will. Took 120 grinders for my Welfare Launcher to +10. 300 Grinders for a +3 on Welfare Double Saber (some of which came from 4 Excubes).

Who was the guy that spent 16 million on 14 Full Protects going from +8 to +8? I remember seeing a screenshot of it somewhere before. It was painful to even look at.

[vPharaohv]

I'm with Xaeris on this. I hate that a game is based around getting stuff others don't have. If it's in the game it should be obtainable by everyone.

And my grinding luck has been weird. For my welfare double saber I got it to +10 in 3-4 stacks. But my Blade dance took over 15 mil and 6 ex-cubes.

[The Walrus]

But it is obtainable by everyone. It's just that some people have to put more time into it then others to obtain what they want

[gigawuts]

Who was the guy that spent 16 million on 14 Full Protects going from +8 to +8? I remember seeing a screenshot of it somewhere before. It was painful to even look at.

Ugh god, yeah, that shouldn't even be a possibility. It's an enormous middle finger to the playerbase, not even just the one it happens to but everyone it could happen to (i.e. all of them).

[Shinmarizu]

I'm with Xaeris on this. I hate that a game is based around getting stuff others don't have. If it's in the game it should be obtainable by everyone.

And my grinding luck has been weird. For my welfare double saber I got it to +10 in 3-4 stacks. But my Blade dance took over 15 mil and 6 ex-cubes.

As long as there is any form of randomness in what people get from any given mob, there will always be 'haves' and 'have-nots.'

As for my grinding experiences, I've had some 7* weapons go from +8 to +8 after 99 grinders, while some 8* go from 0 to +10 after 60. I hate this RNG. Don't get me started on 10* weps now...


Ugh god, yeah, that shouldn't even be a possibility. It's an enormous middle finger to the playerbase, not even just the one it happens to but everyone it could happen to (i.e. all of them).

That seriously happened? No wonder some people don't touch this crap with a 20-foot pole.

[MetalDude]

Cubed a Vardha Bit over it dropping from 7 to 1 and refusing to go past 5 after 200 grinders. It's astounding how stupid the RNG can be.

[Z-0]

He went from +8 to +8 in 8 attempts.

I went from +8 to +10 in 13 attempts, all locked. That was me, and it cost 15 million as I bought some 5/10%s as well. (yay I feel special \o/)

[gigawuts]

As long as there is any form of randomness in what people get from any given mob, there will always be 'haves' and 'have-nots.'

As for my grinding experiences, I've had some 7* weapons go from +8 to +8 after 99 grinders, while some 8* go from 0 to +10 after 60. I hate this RNG. Don't get me started on 10* weps now...



That seriously happened? No wonder some people don't touch this crap with a 20-foot pole.

I think I'm uniquely qualified to comment on this... (crammed in a quote box so nobody accidentally quotes this whole mess)



Maisen: 93 grinds
[SPOILER-BOX]2012-11-16T20:59:18 2158 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-16T20:59:18 2159 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-16T20:59:25 2161 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-16T20:59:25 2162 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-16T20:59:32 2164 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-16T20:59:32 2165 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:24:48 2086 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:24:48 2087 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:24:53 2088 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:24:53 2089 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:24:57 2090 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:24:57 2091 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:00 2092 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:00 2093 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:04 2094 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:04 2095 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:08 2096 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+7 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:08 2097 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:12 2098 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:12 2099 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:16 2100 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+7 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:16 2101 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:20 2102 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:20 2103 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:24 2104 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:24 2105 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:28 2106 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:28 2107 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:31 2108 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:31 2109 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:35 2110 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:35 2111 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:39 2112 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+7 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:39 2113 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:43 2114 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:43 2115 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:47 2116 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:47 2117 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:51 2118 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:51 2119 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:55 2120 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:55 2121 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:25:59 2122 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:25:59 2123 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:03 2124 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:03 2125 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:07 2126 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:07 2127 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:10 2128 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+7 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:10 2129 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:14 2130 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:14 2131 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:17 2132 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+7 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:17 2133 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:21 2134 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:21 2135 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:25 2136 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:25 2137 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:29 2138 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:29 2139 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:33 2140 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:33 2141 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:36 2142 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+2 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:36 2143 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:26:40 2144 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+3 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:26:40 2145 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:27:10 2150 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+2 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:27:10 2151 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:27:14 2152 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+3 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:27:14 2153 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:27:23 2155 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:27:23 2156 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:00 2158 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:00 2159 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:04 2160 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:04 2161 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:08 2162 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+3 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:08 2163 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:12 2164 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:12 2165 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:15 2166 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+3 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:15 2167 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:27 2169 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:27 2170 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:31 2171 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:31 2172 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:34 2173 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:34 2174 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:38 2176 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+3 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:38 2177 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:42 2178 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:42 2179 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:28:56 2184 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:28:56 2185 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:00 2186 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:00 2187 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:03 2188 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:03 2189 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:07 2190 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:07 2191 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:15 2193 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:15 2194 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:23 2196 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:23 2197 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:27 2198 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:27 2199 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:30 2200 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:30 2201 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:34 2202 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:34 2203 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:38 2204 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:38 2205 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:42 2206 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:42 2207 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:45 2208 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:45 2209 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:49 2210 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:49 2211 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:53 2213 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:53 2214 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:29:57 2215 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:29:57 2216 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:30:00 2217 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:30:00 2218 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:30:04 2219 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:30:04 2220 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:30:08 2221 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:30:08 2222 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:30:11 2223 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:30:11 2224 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:30:16 2225 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:30:16 2226 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:30:20 2227 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:30:20 2228 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:30:24 2229 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:30:24 2230 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:30:27 2231 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:30:27 2232 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:31:25 2237 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:31:25 2238 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:31:30 2239 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:31:30 2240 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:31:33 2241 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+7 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:31:33 2242 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:31:36 2243 [Grind(failure) -3] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:31:36 2244 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:31:46 2247 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:31:46 2248 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:31:49 2249 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+3 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:31:49 2250 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:31:52 2251 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+3 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:31:52 2252 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:31:55 2253 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:31:55 2254 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:31:58 2255 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+3 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:31:58 2256 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:01 2257 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+2 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:01 2258 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:03 2259 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+2 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:03 2260 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:08 2261 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+2 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:08 2262 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:11 2263 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+2 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:11 2264 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:14 2265 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+3 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:14 2266 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:17 2267 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+4 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:17 2268 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:20 2269 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+5 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:20 2270 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:22 2271 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+6 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:22 2272 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:25 2273 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+7 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:25 2274 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:28 2275 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+8 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:28 2276 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:31 2277 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+9 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:31 2278 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:34 2279 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+7 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:34 2280 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:43 2282 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+8 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:43 2283 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:46 2284 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+9 attr:Light(29)
2012-11-19T17:32:46 2285 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-11-19T17:32:49 2286 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts マイセン+10 attr:Light(29)[/SPOILER-BOX]

Noise Blower: 271
[SPOILER-BOX]
2012-12-21T15:48:35 5491 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+1 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T15:48:35 5492 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T15:48:39 5493 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T15:48:39 5494 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T15:48:43 5495 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T15:48:43 5496 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T15:48:47 5497 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T15:48:47 5498 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T15:48:51 5499 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T15:48:51 5500 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T15:48:55 5501 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T15:48:55 5502 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:01 6517 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:01 6518 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:05 6519 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:05 6520 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:09 6521 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:09 6522 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:12 6523 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:12 6524 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:15 6525 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:15 6526 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:19 6527 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:19 6528 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:21 6529 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:21 6530 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:24 6531 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:24 6532 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:27 6533 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:27 6534 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:30 6535 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:30 6536 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:33 6537 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:33 6538 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:36 6539 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:36 6540 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:39 6541 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:39 6542 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:43 6543 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:43 6544 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:46 6545 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:46 6546 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:49 6547 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:49 6548 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:43:58 6550 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:43:58 6551 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:07 6554 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:07 6555 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:10 6556 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:10 6557 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:13 6558 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:13 6559 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:19 6561 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:19 6562 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:21 6563 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:21 6564 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:24 6566 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:24 6567 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:27 6568 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:27 6569 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:30 6570 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:30 6571 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:44 6579 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:44 6580 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:47 6581 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:47 6582 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:49 6583 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:49 6584 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:53 6585 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:53 6586 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:44:56 6590 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:44:56 6591 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:45:00 6595 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:45:00 6596 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:45:04 6598 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:45:04 6599 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:45:09 6600 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:45:09 6601 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:45:36 6606 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:45:36 6607 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:45:38 6608 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:45:38 6609 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:45:41 6610 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:45:41 6611 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:45:44 6613 [Grind(failure) -3] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:45:44 6614 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:45:47 6615 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:45:47 6616 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:45:56 6618 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:45:56 6619 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:45:59 6620 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:45:59 6621 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:02 6623 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:02 6624 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:05 6625 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:05 6626 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:08 6627 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:08 6628 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:11 6629 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:11 6630 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:14 6631 [Grind(failure) -3] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:14 6632 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:16 6633 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:16 6634 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:20 6636 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:20 6637 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:23 6638 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:23 6639 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:26 6641 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:26 6642 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:29 6644 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:29 6645 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:44 6650 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:44 6651 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:48 6653 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:48 6654 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:50 6655 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:50 6656 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:53 6658 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:53 6659 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:56 6661 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:56 6662 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:46:59 6663 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:46:59 6664 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:47:02 6666 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:47:02 6667 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:47:08 6670 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:47:08 6671 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:47:10 6674 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:47:10 6675 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:47:13 6676 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:47:13 6677 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:47:16 6678 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:47:16 6679 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:47:19 6680 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:47:19 6681 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:47:22 6682 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:47:22 6683 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:47:25 6685 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:47:25 6686 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:47:28 6687 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:47:28 6688 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:47:37 6690 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:47:37 6691 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:10 6699 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:10 6700 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:13 6702 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:13 6703 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:16 6705 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:16 6706 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:19 6707 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:19 6708 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:22 6709 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:22 6710 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:25 6712 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:25 6713 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:28 6715 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:28 6716 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:40 6722 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:40 6723 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:43 6725 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:43 6726 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:46 6728 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:46 6729 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:49 6731 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:49 6732 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:52 6734 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:52 6735 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:48:55 6737 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:48:55 6738 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:49:15 6743 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:49:15 6744 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:49:18 6745 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:49:18 6746 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:49:42 6750 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:49:42 6751 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:49:47 6753 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:49:47 6754 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:49:50 6757 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:49:50 6758 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:49:53 6759 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:49:53 6760 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:49:56 6762 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:49:56 6763 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:49:59 6764 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+9 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:49:59 6765 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:04 6767 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:04 6768 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:12 6772 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:12 6773 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:17 6776 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:17 6777 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:24 6782 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:24 6783 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:27 6784 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:27 6785 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:30 6787 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:30 6788 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:36 6790 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:36 6791 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:39 6793 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:39 6794 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:42 6795 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:42 6796 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:49 6799 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:49 6800 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:52 6801 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:52 6802 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:55 6803 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:55 6804 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:50:58 6805 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:50:58 6806 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:01 6807 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:01 6808 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:04 6809 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:04 6810 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:06 6811 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:06 6812 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:09 6814 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:09 6815 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:21 6817 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:21 6818 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:24 6819 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:24 6820 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:27 6821 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:27 6822 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:30 6823 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:30 6824 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:33 6825 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:33 6826 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:36 6827 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:36 6828 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:38 6829 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:38 6830 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:41 6831 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:41 6832 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:45 6833 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:45 6834 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:51:47 6835 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+1 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:51:47 6836 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:53:19 6857 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+1 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:53:19 6858 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:53:39 6866 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:53:39 6867 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:53:42 6869 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:53:42 6870 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:53:45 6872 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+1 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:53:45 6873 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:53:48 6876 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:53:48 6877 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:53:53 6879 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:53:53 6880 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:53:56 6881 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+2 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:53:56 6882 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:02 6887 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:02 6888 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:05 6892 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:05 6893 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:08 6895 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:08 6896 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:11 6897 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:11 6898 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:14 6900 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:14 6901 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:21 6903 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:21 6904 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:24 6905 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:24 6906 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:36 6908 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:36 6909 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:39 6911 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:39 6912 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:41 6914 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:41 6915 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:44 6916 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:44 6917 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:47 6918 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:47 6919 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:50 6920 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:50 6921 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:53 6923 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:53 6924 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:56 6925 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:56 6926 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:54:59 6927 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:54:59 6928 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:55:01 6929 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:55:01 6930 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:55:04 6932 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:55:04 6933 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:55:08 6935 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:55:08 6936 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:55:11 6938 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:55:11 6939 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:55:23 6944 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:55:23 6945 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:55:26 6948 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:55:26 6949 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:55:28 6950 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:55:28 6951 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:55:31 6952 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:55:31 6953 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:55:34 6954 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:55:34 6955 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T17:55:48 6960 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T17:55:48 6961 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:05 7004 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:05 7005 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:08 7006 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:08 7007 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:10 7008 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:10 7009 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:13 7011 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:13 7012 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:16 7013 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:16 7014 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:18 7016 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:18 7017 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:21 7018 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:21 7019 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:24 7020 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:24 7021 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:26 7023 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:26 7024 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:29 7025 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:29 7026 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:32 7027 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:32 7028 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:34 7029 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:34 7030 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:37 7031 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:37 7032 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:40 7034 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:40 7035 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:43 7036 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:43 7037 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:45 7038 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:45 7039 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:48 7041 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:48 7042 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:51 7044 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:51 7045 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:54 7046 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:54 7047 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:56 7048 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:56 7049 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:00:59 7051 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:00:59 7052 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:01 7053 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:01 7054 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:04 7055 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:04 7056 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:06 7057 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:06 7058 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:12 7063 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:12 7064 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:14 7065 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:14 7066 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:17 7067 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:17 7068 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:19 7069 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:19 7070 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:22 7071 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:22 7072 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:25 7073 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:25 7074 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:27 7075 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:27 7076 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:30 7077 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:30 7078 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:01:32 7079 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:01:32 7080 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:07 7084 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:07 7085 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:10 7086 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:10 7087 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:13 7088 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:13 7089 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:15 7090 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:15 7091 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:18 7093 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:18 7094 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:21 7095 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:21 7096 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:23 7097 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:23 7098 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:26 7099 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:26 7100 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:28 7101 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:28 7102 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:31 7103 [Grind(failure) -3] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:31 7104 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:33 7105 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:33 7106 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:36 7107 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:36 7108 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:38 7109 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:38 7110 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:41 7111 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:41 7112 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:43 7113 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:43 7114 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:46 7115 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:46 7116 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:49 7117 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:49 7118 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:51 7119 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:51 7120 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:54 7121 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:54 7122 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:56 7123 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:56 7124 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:02:59 7125 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:02:59 7126 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:01 7127 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:01 7128 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:04 7129 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+9 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:04 7130 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:07 7131 [Grind(failure) -3] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:07 7132 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:09 7133 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:09 7134 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:15 7136 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:15 7137 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:18 7138 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:18 7139 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:20 7140 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:20 7141 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:29 7144 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:29 7145 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:32 7146 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:32 7147 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:34 7148 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:34 7149 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:37 7150 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+9 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:37 7151 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:03:40 7152 [Grind(failure) -3] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:03:40 7153 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:04:28 7162 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:04:28 7163 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:04:31 7165 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:04:31 7166 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:04:34 7167 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:04:34 7168 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:04:37 7169 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:04:37 7170 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:04:40 7171 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:04:40 7172 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:04:42 7173 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:04:42 7174 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:04:45 7176 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:04:45 7177 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:04:53 7178 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:04:53 7179 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:04:56 7180 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:04:56 7181 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:04:58 7182 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:04:58 7183 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:01 7184 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:01 7185 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:04 7186 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:04 7187 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:07 7188 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:07 7189 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:10 7191 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:10 7192 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:12 7193 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:12 7194 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:18 7196 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:18 7197 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:21 7198 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:21 7199 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:23 7200 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:23 7201 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:26 7202 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:26 7203 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:29 7204 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:29 7205 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:32 7206 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:32 7207 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:34 7208 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:34 7209 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:37 7210 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:37 7211 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:40 7212 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:40 7213 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:42 7214 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:42 7215 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:45 7216 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:45 7217 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:48 7218 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:48 7219 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:51 7220 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:51 7221 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:53 7222 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:53 7223 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:56 7224 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:56 7225 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:05:59 7226 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:05:59 7227 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:02 7228 [Grind(failure) -2] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+3 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:02 7229 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:04 7230 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:04 7231 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:34 7234 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:34 7235 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:37 7236 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:37 7237 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:40 7238 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:40 7239 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:42 7240 [Grind(failure) -0] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:42 7241 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:45 7242 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:45 7243 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:48 7244 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:48 7245 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:51 7246 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:51 7247 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:54 7248 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:54 7249 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:06:57 7250 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+4 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:06:57 7251 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:07:00 7252 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+5 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:07:00 7253 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:07:02 7254 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:07:02 7255 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:07:05 7256 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:07:05 7257 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:07:08 7258 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:07:08 7259 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:07:10 7260 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:07:10 7261 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:07:13 7262 [Grind(failure) -1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+6 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:07:13 7263 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:07:16 7264 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+7 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:07:16 7265 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:07:18 7266 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+8 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:07:18 7267 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:07:21 7269 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+9 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:07:21 7270 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2012-12-21T18:07:24 7271 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ノイズブローヴァ+10 attr:Dark(23)
2012-12-21T18:07:24 7272 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)[/SPOILER-BOX]

Latria Rain: 10
[spoiler-box]

2013-01-04T06:37:26 904 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ラトリアレイン+1 attr:Light(30)
2013-01-04T06:37:26 905 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2013-01-04T06:37:30 906 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ラトリアレイン+2 attr:Light(30)
2013-01-04T06:37:30 907 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2013-01-04T06:37:33 908 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ラトリアレイン+3 attr:Light(30)
2013-01-04T06:37:33 909 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2013-01-04T06:37:36 910 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ラトリアレイン+4 attr:Light(30)
2013-01-04T06:37:36 911 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2013-01-04T06:37:39 912 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ラトリアレイン+5 attr:Light(30)
2013-01-04T06:37:39 913 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2013-01-04T06:37:42 914 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ラトリアレイン+6 attr:Light(30)
2013-01-04T06:37:42 915 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2013-01-04T06:37:45 916 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ラトリアレイン+7 attr:Light(30)
2013-01-04T06:37:45 917 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2013-01-04T06:37:48 918 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ラトリアレイン+8 attr:Light(30)
2013-01-04T06:37:48 919 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2013-01-04T06:37:51 920 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ラトリアレイン+9 attr:Light(30)
2013-01-04T06:37:51 921 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)
2013-01-04T06:37:55 922 [Grind(success) +1] 10065373 gigawuts ラトリアレイン+10 attr:Light(30)
2013-01-04T06:37:55 923 :Consume 10065373 gigawuts グラインダー Num(3)[/spoiler-box]

That ain't right, man. And then there's Rock and his gwana dub, with many many more grinds than that noise blower.

[Shinmarizu]

I think I'm uniquely qualified to comment on this... (crammed in a quote box so nobody accidentally quotes this whole mess)



That ain't right, man. And then there's Rock and his gwana dub, with many many more grinds than that noise blower.

No, certainly not. My condolences.

The way things will go, my Mizer Bullet and my Daganslash will stay at +6, and my other 10* weps will fare no better. After 12 million meseta total.

Hard work only to be gambled away? Is Sega farming addicts or something?

[NoiseHERO]

150 more grinders

went from +3 to +3

Trying to get to +8

It's like it gets worse every time.

[Shinmarizu]

150 more grinders

went from +3 to +3

Trying to get to +8

It's like it gets worse every time.

Is this still your Gwana Double? My condolences either way.

[NoiseHERO]

Is this still your Gwana Double? My condolences either way.

yeah... yeah it is.

am now quitting fighter 8D

[_Nue]

Spent 1mil getting my Maisen from +8 to +8. I should prolly invest in grind protects and AC.

[gigawuts]

Hard work only to be gambled away? Is Sega farming addicts or something?

I think this is the most succinct and insightful analysis of this to date.

Games have gone from a product made for gamers with brick and mortar shops, to a service rendered to gamers with digital downloads, to a method of extracting money from the modern commodity that is gamers.

They're farming us with an initial investment and then a minimum upkeep.

[FacelessRed]

so far I'm rolling deep with a +7 10* sword, first day +'d it straight to 7 decided to go +8... worst idea ever.

400 + grinders later and a week. It's +7 again (and 3 protection thingies)

http://i.imgur.com/szC0e.gif

[Lumpen Thingy]

so far I'm rolling deep with a +7 10* sword, first day +'d it straight to 7 decided to go +8... worst idea ever.

400 + grinders later and a week. It's +7 again (and 3 protection thingies)

http://i.imgur.com/szC0e.gif

its ok I broke my 10 star launcher going to +10 3 times and my elder rifle going to +10 5 times lol

[Syklo]

its ok I broke my 10 star launcher going to +10 3 times and my elder rifle going to +10 5 times lol
"Broke" ?

wat.

[BIG OLAF]

"Broke" ?

wat.

He probably means "failed", but saying 'broke' is an old PSU habit, since the weapons would break when you failed them, losing an overall grind potential (so you could only get them to 9/9 if it broke once, 8/8 if it broke twice, etc.)

Also, in vanilla PSU, weapons really would break if you failed a grind, and disappear completely.

[NoiseHERO]

Also, in vanilla PSU, weapons really would break if you failed a grind, and disappear completely.

People keep saying that this is worse...

Well if you consider, dudu, then consider your weapon breaking trying to grind = death...

Than I'll say... there are worse things than death...

[Magus_84]

People keep saying that this is worse...

Well if you consider, dudu, then consider your weapon breaking trying to grind = death...

Than I'll say... there are worse things than death...

So you're really saying you'd rather re-hunt your gwana doubles every time Dudu spills his cup of innocents' blood in the grinding machine?

[NoiseHERO]

So you're really saying you'd rather re-hunt your gwana doubles every time Dudu spills his cup of innocents' blood in the grinding machine?

Actually it'd make me not want to grind stuff to begin with and settle with what I have. OR it'd just be gone and I'd give up on it.

Instead of spending 12 mil on it in the course of 2 months and LITERALLY going borderline insane over one item.

And yeah even with the whole "better than PSU's grinding system" argument in general. PSU made it's system better all the way up to PSP2i where it was perfect... so this really isn't a justified new grind system. Like at all. and I'd STILL prefer vanilla PSU's. D:

[gigawuts]

So you're really saying you'd rather re-hunt your gwana doubles every time Dudu spills his cup of innocents' blood in the grinding machine?

Why don't you list me the weapons that were account-bound on pickup and equally rare (50 drop in seven goddamn days on the entire ship) in PSU.

If it's not the 5 best weapons in literally every weapon category, all of which compare very similarly in damage output (barring 12* and 11* which widen that gap even more), then you need to stop making this stupid as fuck comparison.

edit: oooh, 50 in 7 days, not 40, my bad

[Magus_84]

Why don't you list me the weapons that were account-bound on pickup and equally rare (50 drop in seven goddamn days on the entire ship) in PSU.

If it's not the 5 best weapons in literally every weapon category, all of which compare very similarly in damage output (barring 12* and 11* which widen that gap even more), then you need to stop making this stupid as fuck comparison.

edit: oooh, 50 in 7 days, not 40, my bad

Was there account-bound stuff in NA PC PSU? I honestly don't remember, it's been too long.

Aside from that, what you're saying is, because stuff is rare and account-bound, my being happy that they didn't decide to go with the "if your upgrade fails, your stuff is unusable" option, that I'm making a stupid-as-fuck comparison?

You're taking that and stretching it into a full-on endorsement of PSO2's current system, which it is not.

Look at games like DFO, Maple Story and Elsword, which, as far as the cash shop and F2P models are concerned, are some of PSO 2's closest relatives. They're far harsher on upgrades and rare items.

This doesn't mean PSO 2's system is perfect, but if you're strictly limiting your comparison to previous PS games, you're missing a lot of financially-successful and wildly-popular examples that ST could've (and thankfully, didn't...) pull from.

Unless you honestly would be happier in having stuff break when it fails.

They could've gone with account-bound and breakable upon failure, and require you to buy a cash shop item to make the item usable again (not upgradeable, just equippable at all), and another cash shop item to make it tradeable at all. In addition to requiring you to buy a cash shop item just to have a store to sell things to people (after you've unlocked them for trade by using a cash shop item).

They could've made the above punitive system and kept stuff at the same rarity, and this would still probably be at about the same level of unexpected success it's at now.

For some additional perspective, let me ask you...what's your most vivid Phantasy Star-series memory? Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

Mine is being FSOD-X'ed on a "safe" block on a "safe" ship on Sega's official GC server and losing my characters and items to a script-kiddie-induced memory card corruption. Oh, and then seeing most of my online friends quit out of fear.

Compared to that, I have trouble getting worked up about Dudu eating my money over and over and over and over again. Your mileage will vary, of course.

[gigawuts]

Alright, it's clear we're on way different pages here, and you're going down a list of faulty reasoning I've already addressed in this very thread.

Games with RNG-driven mechanics tend to be about the average. That is, if you want 1% of players to have a weapon of certain caliber (let's call it ubergun), then all that matters is 1% get said ubergun. Not many more, not many less. Who they are doesn't particularly matter.

This is generally achieved by... (And this is a massive oversimplification for the sake of simplicity).
1. Make an item drop at this level automatically or easily achieve this level via improvement, but make this item exceptionally rare.
2. Make an item more common, but unlikely to achieve required improvements. Do this via...
2a. Break on failure (Requires multiple items to be reasonably attainable for everyone: iow, items must be "common" and "cheap"; not actually common or cheap, but relatively)
2b. Not break on failure, but lose progress on failure (The worse the penalties for loss, the less common loss must be).
3. Other, including never losing progress OR breaking, but failure instead meaning no change and success being proportionally unlikely.

PSO largely used 1 - the best items were pretty rare, but improving never failed.
PSU used 2a. Items were "easy" to get (the absolute best were, obviously, not "easy," however they were easier than if it was 2b).
PSO2 uses 2b. Except it doesn't. Items are still CRAZY HARD TO GET and to improve, and if the RNG hates you it means you either don't get what you want, or you get what you want 10 times instead of 9 other people getting it too. These other people cannot get these spares under any circumstances. This includes being able to simply buy a pre-improved item. This is actually part of the business strategy, nobody's buying AC-obtained protectors if they can merely buy a pre-ground item for roughly the average cost. 0-loss protectors are only really used by people who can't/don't want to stomach the loss and would have instead bought the item. People who mass grind items tend to prefer -1 as far as I'm aware, which are from FUN.

These are fundamental tenets of game design, as basic as "players might want to know what their HP is." It doesn't apply to ALL games, but as far as things go this sort of thing is pretty high up there as being nearly standard.

edit: Clarified some more wording
edit2: And covered another base, plus fixed a line meant for something else - I could have proofread this better before posting but wrote it during a falz lol

[Heat Haze]

Not grinding per se, but it's still losing money so I guess this counts.

Affixing. Failed 80% twice, then after some hurdles for the final affix; 100%, 100%, 65%, 65% (used a 5% boost). Only the two 100%'s stuck. That alone cost about 1m. Failure is pricy.

Other than that though, is it just me or is it the fact that you're more likely to fail than your are to succeed; despite what the numbers show? 70% fails almost all the damn time in my experience.

Curious about what the exact percentages for grinding equipment are.

[NoiseHERO]

Not grinding per se, but it's still losing money so I guess this counts.

Affixing. Failed 80% twice, then after some hurdles for the final affix; 100%, 100%, 65%, 65% (used a 5% boost). Only the two 100%'s stuck. That alone cost about 1m. Failure is pricy.

Other than that though, is it just me or is it the fact that you're more likely to fail than your are to succeed; despite what the numbers show? 70% fails almost all the damn time in my experience.

Curious about what the exact percentages for grinding equipment are.

PSU was similar, anything less than 100% may as well had been 50%

Whatever SEGA uses for their RNG does NOT work. Even worse they made a game completely based around it now.

[Shinmarizu]

Whatever SEGA uses for their RNG does NOT work. Even worse they made a game completely based around it now.

Another two cents:

It is consensus that affix success rates are much lower than stated unless you hit 100%. Studying and then utilizing this miserable system in order to improve your chances of improving your equipment takes a lot out of you, especially in the funds department. (Especially if multiple affixes fail.)

In some twisted perverse way, this is an effective sink since it removes both meseta and items from circulation. It removes meseta and component material from my storage quite effectively. The frustration, puddles of tears and associated collateral damage is an intentional side effect (pardon my cynicism here).

Sega designed this system to customize weapons that have no originality (aside from aesthetics and raw stats) and this is the "chosen alternative" (as in, stupid excuse) to weapons which had unique or original abilities that people could decide whether to chase after.

Like gigawuts previously mentioned, no one feels special when they get a new weapon anymore. It does not help when all the weapons in the game are, ultimately, only capable of [1] being upgraded in a linear fashion for the most part (considering everyone gets soul, stat 3, stat boost on their gear) and [2] being replaced by better ones (stat-wise) with the same problem.

The latent ability system is a sad excuse to make some weapons more unique, with underwhelming bonuses at large cost.

So, in short, we have multiple "improvement" systems with high cost, and substantial chances of failure.

We have 15 shades of the same colour here. Different tiers of homogeneity.

[Dana]

9* Rod to +9...ends up at +4 before I run out of grinders -_-;;;;

Go fuck yourself SEGA.

[BIG OLAF]

9* Rod to +9...ends up at +4 before I run out of grinders -_-;;;;

Go fuck yourself SEGA.

HEY AT LEAST IT'S NOT AS BAD AS SOME OTHER GAMES, amirite?!?!?!

[Magus_84]

Alright, it's clear we're on way different pages here, and you're going down a list of faulty reasoning I've already addressed in this very thread.

Games with RNG-driven mechanics tend to be about the average. That is, if you want 1% of players to have a weapon of certain caliber (let's call it ubergun), then all that matters is 1% get said ubergun. Not many more, not many less. Who they are doesn't particularly matter.

This is generally achieved by... (And this is a massive oversimplification for the sake of simplicity).
1. Make an item drop at this level automatically or easily achieve this level via improvement, but make this item exceptionally rare.
2. Make an item more common, but unlikely to achieve required improvements. Do this via...
2a. Break on failure (Requires multiple items to be reasonably attainable for everyone: iow, items must be "common" and "cheap"; not actually common or cheap, but relatively)
2b. Not break on failure, but lose progress on failure (The worse the penalties for loss, the less common loss must be).
3. Other, including never losing progress OR breaking, but failure instead meaning no change and success being proportionally unlikely.

PSO largely used 1 - the best items were pretty rare, but improving never failed.
PSU used 2a. Items were "easy" to get (the absolute best were, obviously, not "easy," however they were easier than if it was 2b).
PSO2 uses 2b. Except it doesn't. Items are still CRAZY HARD TO GET and to improve, and if the RNG hates you it means you either don't get what you want, or you get what you want 10 times instead of 9 other people getting it too. These other people cannot get these spares under any circumstances. This includes being able to simply buy a pre-improved item. This is actually part of the business strategy, nobody's buying AC-obtained protectors if they can merely buy a pre-ground item for roughly the average cost. 0-loss protectors are only really used by people who can't/don't want to stomach the loss and would have instead bought the item. People who mass grind items tend to prefer -1 as far as I'm aware, which are from FUN.

These are fundamental tenets of game design, as basic as "players might want to know what their HP is." It doesn't apply to ALL games, but as far as things go this sort of thing is pretty high up there as being nearly standard.

edit: Clarified some more wording
edit2: And covered another base, plus fixed a line meant for something else - I could have proofread this better before posting but wrote it during a falz lol

I think you're mis-remembering some stuff about PSO, for starters. The meaningful weapon attributes that people actually cared about (hit % and the weapon's special) were fixed at drop time, and you couldn't improve them. Yes, you could grind, and yes you could spend photon drops to add non-hit %s, but due to the way ATA/EVP worked, you likely wouldn't be able to use anything in Ultimate without hit %.

Remember hit %? And how, if you didn't find that (already very rare) thing you wanted with hit %, that it was nigh-useless unless you were a ranger (or in certain cases, a Hucaseal). And there wasn't a damned way you could improve it.

To use an example, think of Soul Banish. You could find dozens of them (which, legitly, were at least as rare as some of the stuff people whine about on here), but if you wanted to use them on Fomar/Fomarl, unless they had hit%, they were nigh-useless due to the way ATA worked. Not "can eventually be improved if you sacrifice in-game resources". Completely useless, a doorstop.

Grinding stuff in PSO wasn't nearly as important as it is here. Unless you had a Red weapon, an S-Rank or a few specific other things, grinding was a "nice to have", but grinders were plentiful and it didn't make nearly as much of a difference in weapon performance as hit % or the weapon's special. Or in other words...it was easy to grind because grinding didn't do much.

Finding what would be probably equivalent to PSO 2's 10* rares on PSO was pretty tough on its own. Then, for 2/3rds of the classes, hoping the RNG blesses you again with the ability to actually use it? That's worse odds than anything PSO 2 can throw at you. And unlike here, where if you sacrifice enough children and throw enough buckets of money, you can eventually improve your whatever, you were stuck with it on PSO.

The only exception to items being improvable in the hit% arena was if you were playing a certain server's version of Blue Burst, you did have the ability to use a JP quest to improve enemy part weapons with sweet, sweet hit %.

With a failure rate only slightly less than Dudu, and resources (Photon Crystals) that couldn't be farmed up easily or bought through in-game currency.

So PSO was like 1, in the area no one actually cared about. And in the areas anyone would actually care about in Ultimate, you had no option to improve at all, except for a very specific set of items on a specific server.

PSU comparison is valid, of course.

PSO's slipped enough away from the common memory that a lot of people probably just remember running around in Very Hard hitting stuff with the Delsaber's combo like a boss, or something.

Now, you're again making the mistake that I like this system. I don't. It's a blatant cash grab and leads to a ton of unnecessary frustration.

But pitching it as "the worst system ever" and a crime against humanity and whatnot just makes you look like a whiny child with no sense of perspective.

If you want to actually get this to change? Don't participate. Don't glorify the people who win the roulette. Don't commiserate with all of us that fail. If you get the grind protection stuff from AC scratch, hoard it. Kill the supply.

Sega, for once, seems to actually be paying attention to some of their customer base. If they see that people aren't making use of Dudu's "services" (reaming of their wallets and hope), maybe they'll consider changing it. The eventual reduction of needed grinders might be a good first step.

Or don't, really. I don't particularly care what you do as far as participating or not participating.

I feel compelled to say something when people start blatantly making things up and exaggerating far past the point of credibility.

And for the record? I've got three caster weapons that I'd LOVE to be able to trade to friends of mine who really, really want them, and that I have no use for (Elder Rod x 2 and Divine Tsukiyomi). I've given up on grinding one of the Elder Rods at 4, because I can't afford to grind it.

Bind on Pickup to Account hurts the game's sense of community and makes it impossible to share with your friends.

The system sucks ass. But pretending that there aren't worse alternatives just weakens your case. Make your case on the fact that the system sucks, not that it's "the worst ever" or that "nothing could be worse". Especially not in a series like this where people have actually lost far more than some easily-farmable meseta/easily-replacable sanity due to Sega's ineptitude/callousness.

Sorry for the delayed reply, I was at work.


HEY AT LEAST IT'S NOT AS BAD AS SOME OTHER GAMES, amirite?!?!?!

Quickest way to not being credible is pretending worse alternatives don't exist in games that Sega's already "borrowed" ideas from.

Or do you not easily see another "economic update" that'd buff grind success rates but add break potential to "prevent the market from being flooded"?

And then an "easily affordable" AC shop item to either make a broken weapon usable or prevent it from going to broken status. More likely though, they'd be available from AC Scratch, and untradeable.

[BIG OLAF]

Quickest way to not being credible is pretending worse alternatives don't exist in games that Sega's already "borrowed" ideas from.

Or do you not easily see another "economic update" that'd buff grind success rates but add break potential to "prevent the market from being flooded"?

Did you not pick up on the whole 'sarcasm' bit? I was lampooning the fact that others think the system is fine, just because others may or may not be worse. I figured that was painfully obvious.

[Magus_84]

Did you not pick up on the whole 'sarcasm' bit? I was lampooning the fact that others think the system is fine, just because others may or may not be worse. I figured that was painfully obvious.

I was still in wall of text mode, and still stuck in the "I think some people actually think I LIKE this crap" mode. Apologies.

[Dnd]

472 grinders on a rappy cannon (タルラッピーキャノン) in total from +2 - +8 (as it stands) for my ranger class - I don't even want its latent ability, just the +10 r-atk >_>'

The worst thing is, you say to yourself 'Ill keep it at +9 and not touch it' but then you always do try and you always do fail >_>'

[Seany1990]

The worst thing is, you say to yourself 'Ill keep it at +9 and not touch it' but then you always do try and you always do fail >_>'

Discipline bro

[SociableTyrannosaur]

When it gets to +9 I'd use a grind protect -1 and maybe even one of those little 5% boosters. they help more than you think.

[Dnd]

When it gets to +9 I'd use a grind protect -1 and maybe even one of those little 5% boosters. they help more than you think.

I do, when I have them available, but I find more often or not hammering the grind button until the RNG wall breaks through works, just not on that rappy cannon >_>

H&S 25 justice? 42 grinders to +10 (using 5% booster @ +9) - I'm not saying all 7* should be like that, its just this one that refuses to +10 lol

[GuardianGirth]

Besides the obvious act of hunting for weapons in the first place, such a fundamental influence on your characters progression should never be dependent on chance if that progression can be taken away by the same system of chance as well.

Its honestly the price we pay for playing a game that doesn't have to cost you any real money. Nothing more.

[MetalDude]

Rage moment, but it's fucking abhorrent and on certain days completely deters me from playing the game. Up until I found my first clone code (and farmed them thereafter), I felt like it was pointless to play the game, knowing well that the +8's I worked for on my 10* weapons could get fucked over in an instant. It's such a stupid idea that none of the paying options can even reasonably fix. I'm sitting on top of a decent chunk of meseta and it pisses me off that it's a horrible idea to spend any of it on that shithead of an item lab attendant.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

yeah I definitely think premium users should get their grinding/affixing odds boosted

[gigawuts]

I don't.

Let's not go down that path.

Grinding for everybody imo.

Add a skill-indexing of some kind to it or leave it as it, but do not make this even more blatantly p2w.

[Heat Haze]

I tried grinding a Legacy Cannon. After 3 mil, decided: @#$! it. (It was hanging at +9, and failed there 5 times before failing a 6th time dropping to +6)

I excubed it. No regrets.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I don't.

Let's not go down that path.

Grinding for everybody imo.

Add a skill-indexing of some kind to it or leave it as it, but do not make this even more blatantly p2w.

I dunno if you're paying $16+ a month you should be getting SOMETHING worth while over the people who are mooching. I don't mean buy 100% chances. people talking about that are saying P2W. I just dont think i should have a 30% chance to get my flame visit to +5 or drop down to +2 if I'm paying these jokers $16/mo while others have the same experience as me for free

[gigawuts]

I agree, but grind boosts are not the way to go.

[Rien]

You already get the ability to obtain grind protects

Shouldn't you funnel your money into that instead of the thing we know as premium?

[SociableTyrannosaur]

You already get the ability to obtain grind protects

Shouldn't you funnel your money into that instead of the thing we know as premium?

You mean into the stuff you have to gamble on and may or may not get for nearly $3 a pop.

...yeah I'll get right on that

[MetalDude]

http://psp2.psupedia.info/Special%253ASearch/Weapon_upgrading.html

Why in the world was this not good enough? It's not like MyShop is suddenly unviable or something (you'd still need truckloads of money).

[The Walrus]

Because it lets sega sell grind protects and stuff

[BIG OLAF]

Yeah, SEGA wants to coerce you into buying AC by making it ridiculously hard to improve your weapons.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Yep. If SEGA sold 100%s people would only buy once (and/or it would be exceedingly rare). With not-100%s you get repeat buyers. Also pushes the secondary market of people who don't buy into the gambling odds increase but will sell them on myshop to people who will pay the big bucks.

[gigawuts]

Ding ding ding.

They're in the market of uncertainty.

[MetalDude]

It's just completely detrimental to the game; I have stopped caring about getting to +10 on anything ever since I've had horrible luck with that Vardha Bit and some more recent items. I feel like Sega already gets a ton from AC Scratch alone when it comes to new costumes.

[Heat Haze]

It's just completely detrimental to the game; I have stopped caring about getting to +10 on anything ever since I've had horrible luck with that Vardha Bit and some more recent items. I feel like Sega already gets a ton from AC Scratch alone when it comes to new costumes.

Detrimental to the game, sure. But like most modern games, it's not about improving the game so players want to keep playing. It's about finding out how to exploit players; whether it be manipulating their gambling habits or whathaveyou.

This is hardly a scientific article, but it gets the general idea across. And Sega ticks all the boxes on this one. (http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html)

Found yet another 10*. Excubed that @#$! right away. Not going to deal with the stress. This time it was Demonic Fork.

[MetalDude]

I feel like drop rates and the whole untradeable 10* deal covered that. It just seems really unnecessary to tack on RNG to a major form of stat progression. For a good chunk of people, it's just a massive turnoff.

[gigawuts]

yeah but, like, dude, like, you could play the whole game with 1* equips, unless you're bad LOL

YOU'RE NOT BAD ARE YOU LOL

[IIKookaburra]

yeah but, like, dude, like, you could play the whole game with 1* equips, unless you're bad LOL

YOU'RE NOT BAD ARE YOU LOL

I only hunt/ buy rares for the looks and it really sucks that most of the new rares are unattainable for unlucky players like me

[Magus_84]

I'm going to go ahead and call this now:

Before the end of 2013, there will be items in the game that will let you make 10* items tradeable, either one time only or a very limited number of times. They'll work for one item, letting you make that single item "tradeable". So for three 10*s, you'd need three Trade Passes (making the name up).

They'll either be buyable through AC or available through AC Scratch.

And of course, to actually trade them, you and the target will still need Premium. To sell them, you'll need a shop pass.

[gigawuts]

I'm going to go ahead and call this now:

Before the end of 2013, there will be items in the game that will let you make 10* items tradeable, either one time only or a very limited number of times. They'll work for one item, letting you make that single item "tradeable". So for three 10*s, you'd need three Trade Passes (making the name up).

They'll either be buyable through AC or available through AC Scratch.

And of course, to actually trade them, you and the target will still need Premium. To sell them, you'll need a 10* Trader Pass (monthly AC item & requires koffie CO).

One minor alteration.

And I expect exactly this, as well.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I actually expect them to change premium again since they're still getting complaints that it's not worth the money. We may see the FUN shop passes will work the same and that premium/paid passes allow trading/selling of 10*s

[Shinmarizu]

With respect to making bound items / untradeables tradeable, regardless of whatever bandaid or stopgap measure Sega intends to do, we (as a whole) will continue to buy into this system.

That goes for every system in this silly game we continue to play.

[gravityvx]

Relevant? lol
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/Thatguyobliv/1.jpghttp://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/Thatguyobliv/2.jpghttp://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/Thatguyobliv/3.jpghttp://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/Thatguyobliv/4.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Heat Haze]

Lost 6m to Doo Doo earlier. Bleh.

Don't even feel like logging in anymore. I'd usually just log in for FUN and check shop; but I don't even want to do that now.

Sure, some people have it worse. But, how can they continue to throw more money at that guy despite losing so much?

[gigawuts]

They have more of it.

I don't tend to go grinding unless I'm either flat broke -> mentality that 200k isn't going to buy me much more than 1k, or mega "rich" -> mentality that 25m isn't going to buy me much more than 16m.

[The Walrus]

Gotta wonder why the majority puts up with the system and doesn't seem to complain about it.

Japanese majority anyway.

[Ezodagrom]

Grinding in PSO2 is truly awful, yeah, but I'm wondering, do you guys really need to have +10 weapons? Isn't like +5~+7 more than enough especially when taking into consideration that the game tends to be rather easy?

[Heat Haze]

Grinding in PSO2 is truly awful, yeah, but I'm wondering, do you guys really need to have +10 weapons? Isn't like +5~+7 more than enough especially when taking into consideration that the game tends to be rather easy?

I tend to Time Attack quite a lot, +10 is needed as it's the difference between 2 hits to kill stuff and 1 hit to kill stuff as a Force. That said, we don't necessarily "need" +10 weapons; but they're just nice to have. Unfortunately, the RNG is just trash which the entire game is based upon.

Within the past 3 days though.. I lost about 3m Grinding (Legacy Cannon, which I gave up and excubed) and 6m affixing Elder Rod

Hurts a little bit. With how badly the economy is doing now, I probably didn't lose as much as I think I did, but that's just wishful thinking on my part.

[gigawuts]

Grinding in PSO2 is truly awful, yeah, but I'm wondering, do you guys really need to have +10 weapons? Isn't like +5~+7 more than enough especially when taking into consideration that the game tends to be rather easy?

The "don't need to +10" thing is becoming invalid due to two key points:
1. Latents being the purpose of stat-inferior weapons
2. Stats plateauing after level 40.

Enemies keep gaining stats, but you don't. To perform comparably well, yes, you will need to +10 your weapons. More so to gain the benefits latents offer, which is, for many of us, the purpose of obtaining rares.

Very soon, yes, it will become even more necessary when latents are the new source of strength (i.e. psycho wand and its bonus will not stand out as much in the future. Its stats may be the best, but a special bonus such as that will be ordinary.)

[Ezodagrom]

The "don't need to +10" thing is becoming invalid due to two key points:
1. Latents being the purpose of stat-inferior weapons
2. Stats plateauing after level 40.

Enemies keep gaining stats, but you don't. To perform comparably well, yes, you will need to +10 your weapons. More so to gain the benefits latents offer, which is, for many of us, the purpose of obtaining rares.

Very soon, yes, it will become even more necessary when latents are the new source of strength (i.e. psycho wand and its bonus will not stand out as much in the future. Its stats may be the best, but a special bonus such as that will be ordinary.)
My question was more towards those who want a +10 without getting a latent ability (the latent system should have been implemented in some other way ._.).

[gigawuts]

I know. I still answered that question too.

[Ezodagrom]

I know. I still answered that question too.
You say that it will be needed, but right now, is it actually needed to have a +10 weapon though? Is it worth spending millions and millions trying to get a weapon to +10 when something like +7 is more than good enough?

Complaining about the grinding system is one thing (it does need to be fixed), but, are +10 weapons needed to the point of using the grinding system and failing so much that the player doesn't even feel like playing anymore?

[gigawuts]

Yeah, I answered that question. The answer was yes.

If enemies gain more stats than you, the slack must be picked up with weapons. If you don't care about needing to spend more time killing enemies, then no apparently not.

If you don't like that answer have fun with your different opinion, I guess.

I'm not sure why this is difficult for you to grasp.

[Ezodagrom]

Yeah, I answered that question. The answer was yes.

If enemies gain more stats than you, the slack must be picked up with weapons. If you don't care about needing to spend more time killing enemies, then no apparently not.

If you don't like that answer have fun with your different opinion, I guess.

I'm not sure why this is difficult for you to grasp.
And then comes the complaints about the game being easy, and, of course, parties/multi-parties obliterating everything. ￣ω￣

[gigawuts]

And then comes the complaints about the game being easy. ￣ω￣

You don't pay much attention.

I don't complain about the game being easy. I play in parties of 2-4 people, usually TAing or boss fighting. My issues are with lazy game design and poor RNG mechanics based on making people pay real money to reduce the odds of mechanics intended to be uncertain.

If you're going to repost the same nonsense ("isn't +7 enough?" "no" "isn't +7 enough?" "I just said no" "oh now you'll complain it's too easy"), make sure it's properly directed. Each thing you've posted here is a rehashed and debunked thought.

If the game is easy, requiring 3 hits instead of 2 will not make it challenging. It will just make it more time consuming.

So was that troll baiting gone wrong, or...?

[Ezodagrom]

You don't pay much attention.

I don't complain about the game being easy. I play in parties of 2-4 people, usually TAing or boss fighting. My issues are with lazy game design and poor RNG mechanics based on making people pay real money to reduce the odds of mechanics intended to be uncertain.

If you're going to repost the same nonsense ("isn't +7 enough?" "no" "isn't +7 enough?" "I just said no" "oh now you'll complain it's too easy"), make sure it's properly directed. Each thing you've posted here is a rehashed and debunked thought.

If the game is easy, requiring 3 hits instead of 2 will not make it challenging. It will just make it more time consuming.

So was that troll baiting gone wrong, or...?
I agree that the grinding system is awful and needs to be fixed though, but if someone is going to be using (and failing) that system until the point where he wants to quit the game even while knowing that the system is awful instead of being content with the weapons he has, well, that's his own fault. :\

[gigawuts]

Ah, here we go.

"Be happy with what you have"
"At least it's not worse"
"It might be bad but it's not like it's bad enough to complain about"

[Ezodagrom]

Ah, here we go.

"Be happy with what you have"
"At least it's not worse"
"It might be bad but it's not like it's bad enough to complain about"
From those 3, the only one I said is "be happy with what you have", I didn't say the other 2.
The system is bad and it's worth complaining about, but if people know that the system is awful, then they should show some restraint and not attempt to get +10s.

[gravityvx]

I agree that the grinding system is awful and needs to be fixed though, but if someone is going to be using (and failing) that system until the point where he wants to quit the game even while knowing that the system is awful instead of being content with the weapons he has, well, that's his own fault. :\

Totally the games fault to knowingly go in to a rigged dice game and go all in expecting to come out on top. Sarcasm aside, some people have no self restraint and don't know when to stop before they have serious regrets. Yeah we get it, system sucks, yet people keep using it and keep complaining, annnnd yet it's still not fixed. Sounds legit.

[gigawuts]

From those 3, the only one I said is "be happy with what you have", I didn't say the other 2.
The system is bad and it's worth complaining about, but if people know that the system is awful, then they should show some restraint and not attempt to get +10s.

Oh, I know, they're just the standard 3 go-to statements when someone has nothing left to disagree with.

They're pretty common around here. Pretty much nobody has any ability to say "Well that is a point," or "I can see why you feel that way, but I disagree."

It's always one of those three.

[NoiseHERO]

Totally the games fault to knowingly go in to a rigged dice game and go all in expecting to come out on top.

http://brokentoys.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/stop-posting.gif

[Rien]

http://brokentoys.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/stop-posting.gif

That reminds me of a Makunoichi Ippo lookalike I saw in-game while trying to run around fcont some time ago.

[Neith]

Tried grinding a Firearms earlier (I know it isn't great, but looks better than the Iritista rifle). Spend 250 grinders, god knows how much meseta.

Started at +6. Ended at +6. fml.

[Coatl]

I hope they make grinding impossibru so people just don't bother.
The mental health of the populace will stay intact at least.

[The Walrus]

But then there would be way too much money in the economy

[Coatl]

But then there would be way too much money in the economy

There's already too much money in the economy. :v

[Heat Haze]

I hope they make grinding impossibru so people just don't bother.
The mental health of the populace will stay intact at least.
So far, a lot of people are deterred from doing that weapon ability, grind reset, BS. So I guess that's one thing done right.

Hell, I wouldn't bother with grinding equipment if it wasn't necessary. The stat gains are so poor now that the equipment you have needs to pick up the slack; and unfortunately the RNG isn't that nice.

Grinding stuff should be optional, not needed, for decent performance.

But then there would be way too much money in the economy
The economy has always been bad. Funny enough, it's only Ship 2 whose economy is that bad. Heard from friends at other ships that their prices are at worst 3/4ths of ours; and at best well over half off what we have.

[Coatl]

7

Grinding stuff should be optional, not needed, for decent performance.


What's decent performance though? It's not like there's a set standard presented in the game.

[Heat Haze]

What's decent performance though? It's not like there's a set standard presented in the game.

Enough to not burden other players. Can't exactly feel great being a casual gamer with decent, but not maxed, equipment dragging down a party by dying too often or prolonging a boss fight from lackluster damage.

Not really a set standard for sure, and people define things differently, but I think this general view is shared by many. Most really just lolMPA though, so it might not be such an issue after all. But with more people doing TAs (Darker's Den), who knows.

[gigawuts]

Games like these tend to thrive in "damage or utility" options.

There is no utility option.

How to amend all of this shit:
Reduce grinding bonuses to 25% at +10, increase base stats to account for the difference.
Make weapons more common
Give utility to weapons that aren't focusing on damage (enemies lifted on stun, aoe pa's have wider radius, etc.)
Give lowest damage weapons berserk and conditional damage specials (always crits stunned enemies, etc.), for best damage with huge penalties.

Ta da. People want more than one weapon, things are worth hunting, etc. People with common or bad weapons can still do something helpful.

[Magus_84]

Games like these tend to thrive in "damage or utility" options.

There is no utility option.

How to amend all of this shit:
Reduce grinding bonuses to 25% at +10, increase base stats to account for the difference.
Make weapons more common
Give utility to weapons that aren't focusing on damage (enemies lifted on stun, aoe pa's have wider radius, etc.)
Give lowest damage weapons berserk and conditional damage specials (always crits stunned enemies, etc.), for best damage with huge penalties.

Ta da. People want more than one weapon, things are worth hunting, etc. People with common or bad weapons can still do something helpful.

So this.

Utility weapons made PSO's weapon selection more varied. PSO ruined it by needing hit% on everything to make use of most of the specials in Ultimate, but the concept was quite good.

[MetalDude]

Hell, the gains from grinding aren't even really substantial in PSP2 and at the very least, there are guarantees based on the huge sums of money you dump into it. I would really love if grinding was super easy and much less rewarding if weapons did have a higher base and actual utility abilities.

[gravityvx]

Enough to not burden other players. Can't exactly feel great being a casual gamer with decent, but not maxed, equipment dragging down a party by dying too often or prolonging a boss fight from lackluster damage.

Not really a set standard for sure, and people define things differently, but I think this general view is shared by many. Most really just lolMPA though, so it might not be such an issue after all. But with more people doing TAs (Darker's Den), who knows.

As the game currently is, it's pop a weak bullet on boss, no one will notice the difference. Then again I've yet to hear someone actually complain about any of the mediocre boss fights relating to anyones damage. Only complaints I have ever heard on any boss encounter is not breaking parts, or how annoying banthers can be. I think as long you're using a Very Hard mode weapon and at least attempted to grind it a few levels there's no problem. But I have honestly never examined anyone in this game because what's the point? You're gonna complete whatever it is you're doing, not much challenge in this game yet. Unless grinding boring TAs to get abducted counts. I don't think it's even possible to drag a party down unless you're doing TA and died or something, which is pretty hard to do after you have the same 3 maps memorized.

[Coatl]

As the game currently is, it's pop a weak bullet on boss, no one will notice the difference. Then again I've yet to hear someone actually complain about any of the mediocre boss fights relating to anyones damage. Only complaints I have ever heard on any boss encounter is not breaking parts, or how annoying banthers can be. I think as long you're using a Very Hard mode weapon and at least attempted to grind it a few levels there's no problem. But I have honestly never examined anyone in this game because what's the point? You're gonna complete whatever it is you're doing, not much challenge in this game yet. Unless grinding boring TAs to get abducted counts. I don't think it's even possible to drag a party down unless you're doing TA and died or something, which is pretty hard to do after you have the same 3 maps memorized.

This. I don't ever complain if someone is using a VH *7 at +4, and I don't ever feel like I'm carrying them either. In fact, I can hardly notice the difference whether someone has a +10 elder rod or a +4 *6 rod. Things just die too fast to care.

Not saying grinding isn't terrible, but I think people over exaggerate at how gimped they are without a fully grinded *10 with soul + affix III + spirita boost on it.

[Shinmarizu]

I don't ever complain if someone is using a VH *7 at +4, and I don't ever feel like I'm carrying them either. In fact, I can hardly notice the difference whether someone has a +10 elder rod or a +4 *6 rod. Things just die too fast to care.

To some extent I agree; we all do our part with what we have, and for the most part, people don't really care. Unfortunately, some people do.


Not saying grinding isn't terrible, but I think people over exaggerate at how gimped they are without a fully grinded *10 with soul + affix III + spirita boost on it.

So what if you see people get their weapon to +10, or get their mad affix set.

If we wanted to, we all could do it. We just need to get over (1) how expensive it is and (2) how hard it is to get to +10 or fix soul + stat 3/4 + spirit boost. The people who have it (or flaunt it, for the jealous people out there) have spent the time to get the meseta and items to obtain what they want.

But eventually we will all reach the following reality, and this is the significant flaw that this game has:


Enemies keep gaining stats, but you don't. To perform comparably well, yes, you will need to +10 your weapons. More so to gain the benefits latents offer, which is, for many of us, the purpose of obtaining rares.

Very soon, yes, it will become even more necessary when latents are the new source of strength (i.e. psycho wand and its bonus will not stand out as much in the future. Its stats may be the best, but a special bonus such as that will be ordinary.)

We can be laid back and whatever while we play this game, but we will all have to find ways to improve our own performance eventually. And since newer weapons and armor will continue to appear in response to the stronger enemies that we will deal with, we will have to keep improving ourselves.

The alternative (to ignore this customization system that we are so loathe to, but are subscribed to nonetheless) will lead to players who will eventually complain and stop playing because they are not performing well enough in-game.

Point is: The spirit of this thread is discussing this struggle, and how difficult it is to achieve the current maximums our weapons and armor will allow us to have. Base stat growth will become irrelevant (and will take longer anyway, so doubly worse). This grinding and affixing system sucks, but we have to keep doing it.

[gravityvx]

To some extent I agree; we all do our part with what we have, and for the most part, people don't really care. Unfortunately, some people do.

This grinding and affixing system sucks, but we have to keep doing it.

At the first comment, I've been playing since beta up to now and never once have I heard anyone complain about someones gear, ever. So anyone feeling inferior or bad about their gear while in a group are just silly, the things are still gonna die and long as you at least attempted to use a decent weapon there's no shame to be had. There is nothing at all "hardcore" about this game to a point where you need to be running around completely decked out, it doesn't make hard missions/codes/bosses etc easier, it makes what is already relatively easy even more easy, that being missions/codes/bosses etc (in a group setting). And anyone that has been harrassed about their gear, need to find some new people play with. But yeah, as far I can tell that group of "some people" are a minority unless you're talking about the people that try to +10 their gear, waste all their money instead of stopping before they have regrets, come crying here, which in that case is pretty hilarious.


At the bolded comment, the thing about grinding is you only should do it to a certain extent, not +10, 10 I consider luxury of the lucky and or wealthy. When ultimate is released you can bet most of our weapons will be very weak compared to the ultimate counterparts. And this is how they close the gap in the monsters health/damage to ours, add higher tier gear and advance classes to increase our overall stats(is what I would assume they are smart enough to do). Meaning we could probably obtain our current weapon tier strengths with lower grind level like before, sure +10 will most ikely still be a problem but we sure as hell would not be hindered by that fact, just like now. And frankly I feel like our characters are already pretty damn overpowered as it is, we do get hit pretty damn hard though, which I find is alright since we can dodge into invinc. frames.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Personally I'm only motivated to improve my gear to make the daily TACOs go by quicker. Nobody complains about my gear except me.