Gunners vs Clones

[Cortte]

Not sure if anyone else has noticed. But a Gunner vs Hunter and Ranger clones is especially easy. If you stay airborn enough they just kinda sit there and take it from you. Best a ranger does is homing emission and it always misses. But sadly agains't a force they seem to know how to target airborn people lol.

Just a tip if anyone needed some help

[The Walrus]

Dem invincibility frames man

[jooozek]

You are a gunner. Just juggle that shit?

[Jakosifer]

Ah the wonders of Charged A. Shooting + Elder/Squall. Free Photon Spheres~

[Cortte]

You are a gunner. Just juggle that shit?

Yeah that is the plan, but it only holds for about 3 or 4 uses of Elder rebellion. I think once you hit them a set amount of time they get some invincibility for themselves so they can stand up again...but they tend to be so slow with reacting after they get up that you can just reset the juggle lol

[CelestialBlade]

Shit is crazy imbalanced. You're screwed if you're melee but ranged and tech isn't bad, while melee clones are useless but ranged and tech are bullshit because of PA targeting. If this is truly their "PVP test" then I hope they're seeing stuff we all saw coming :P

[Cortte]

In a sense I do think the idea of PVP in this game would be pretty interesting. It would be much better than how it was a game of "You hit me, then I hit you" In PSO1 lol. I think some kinks need to be worked out of course. But in reality it would be easier to solve Force and Ranger issues if you play it like any other game that has PvP. Which is simply gearing your defense for said situation. And proper damage scaling of course.

That is probably where Gunslashes will thrive because you have the hybrid melee/ranged damage and rods/wands for the melee/tech damage...however the Gunslash Nersir has a T attack requirement...so it must be pretty decent in all forms of damage.

[Kirine]

In a sense I do think the idea of PVP in this game would be pretty interesting. It would be much better than how it was a game of "You hit me, then I hit you" In PSO1 lol. I think some kinks need to be worked out of course. But in reality it would be easier to solve Force and Ranger issues if you play it like any other game that has PvP. Which is simply gearing your defense for said situation. And proper damage scaling of course.

That is probably where Gunslashes will thrive because you have the hybrid melee/ranged damage and rods/wands for the melee/tech damage...however the Gunslash Nersir has a T attack requirement...so it must be pretty decent in all forms of damage.

The only problem I can see is that range classes would have the upperhand when it comes to pvp.

As a Force, you can hold down the others with status inflictments... as watching burn and poison wrecking clones shows it is quite dangerous.

Ranger wise, a clone GU actually sent me in the air with their attack and I cannot do anything to attack back until I land.

[MetalDude]

Entirely new skills would have to be made (Aerial Just Reversal to prevent cheap juggles) and Rafoie would have to be removed from PvP scenarios. Also, RA would need a way better evade.

[Cortte]

The only problem I can see is that range classes would have the upperhand when it comes to pvp.

As a Force, you can hold down the others with status inflictments... as watching burn and poison wrecking clones shows it is quite dangerous.

Ranger wise, a clone GU actually sent me in the air with their attack and I cannot do anything to attack back until I land.

It would be nice if there was some sort of burst system. Like a refresher skill that allows you to break free of an attack once and counter or something. With the way the mechanics work with the game already it could make for awesome PvP. Just imagine those PA combos you wanted to try out, but the enemies you try it on always died before the end lol.

[schnee4]

Other Spin

[Daiyousei]

Funny how I have the most trouble with hunters as gunner, they just keep on pressing forward with their onslaught, sure there are PAs to deal with them but they just get right back up and press forward again, all the time while I'm trying to keep range and tech off as well, they don't do much to me, but can sure add up over time if I don't get rid of that blasted hunter first. Very rarely do I run into groups of clones with no force present, they just throw a Zan spam and interrupt my airborne manuevers, and then hunters have their way with me as soon as I touch the ground.

[Syklo]

As a fighter, all I do is

Raging waltz, with poison daggers.
Works everytime.

[FacelessRed]

Range needs to be severely nerfed damage wise (in general, Falz hunar vs Hunter is a nightmare, a total joke infact) and juggle wise. A universal break free would be nice. PVP builds would become viable (those unwanted builds like defense hunter with auto cure on block etc)

I'd also like to see a new sonic arrow skill that travels vertically instead of just horizontally.

[Syklo]

This game would be much more fun with aerial just reversal.
However that may work.

[Angelo]

GU vs. anything is a cakewalk.

I normally don't cry for nerfs, but it's really just ruining the core mechanics of the game. When I team with GU and RA everything is just mowed down within seconds, bosses included.

The other day for the first time I had a team of two HU (myself included) and two FOs. It had been a long, long time since I'd been in a ranger-free team. We actually had to look for enemy tells, move around, strike at the right moment, I was using Warcry and switching between stances. It was actually fun and felt daring and adventurous... felt like PSO1. This is how the gameplay should feel (inb4 'hurr hurr dont tell me how the game should be!')

[Xaeris]

Step 1: Dead Approach.

Step 2: Juggle.

Step 3: Repeat Step 2 until clone is dead.

Honestly, if PvP ever became a thing, they'd have to do something about that; things don't hit the ground unless I get bored and allow them to.

[terrell707]

If PvP ever became a thing,
Hunters would need some way of closing the gap between ranged people quicker, maybe a skill that boosts their speed or some sort of lunging skill or something. They would also need a way of breaking out of aerial combos. It would make sense for only hunter and fighter classes to have an aerial reversal.
Rangers would need to be nerfed all around. Make them not so mobile or reduce their damage significantly. Also weak shot or weak bullet, whatever its called, would have to be nerfed.
Forces would also need to be nerfed. Maybe put a cool down on their mirage escape.

[Syklo]

If PvP ever became a thing,
Hunters would need some way of closing the gap between ranged people quicker, maybe a skill that boosts their speed or some sort of lunging skill or something. They would also need a way of breaking out of aerial combos. It would make sense for only hunter and fighter classes to have an aerial reversal.
Rangers would need to be nerfed all around. Make them not so mobile or reduce their damage significantly. Also weak shot or weak bullet, whatever its called, would have to be nerfed.
Forces would also need to be nerfed. Maybe put a cool down on their mirage escape.
Rangers would be the losers here then.

FO: Lol razan razan razan razan razan.
Aerial reversals on all classes. That should make things more interesting.

[Angelo]

If PvP ever became a thing,
Hunters would need some way of closing the gap between ranged people quicker, maybe a skill that boosts their speed or some sort of lunging skill or something. They would also need a way of breaking out of aerial combos. It would make sense for only hunter and fighter classes to have an aerial reversal.
Rangers would need to be nerfed all around. Make them not so mobile or reduce their damage significantly. Also weak shot or weak bullet, whatever its called, would have to be nerfed.
Forces would also need to be nerfed. Maybe put a cool down on their mirage escape.

Guard Stance could have some flinch and knockback resist added to them. It already has poison and burn resist.

Or maybe have Just Guard reflect bullet damage and effects? Bounce that weak bullet right back at 'em.

I really don't think that there's any need to nerf Mirage Escape, if they're just floating around all the time they're not really contributing at all, and if Battle Mode is anything like the Portable series it will be objective based and not just 'lol kill every1 deathmatch'; If you sit around on your ass or waste time like that someone else is going to be attacking your base, stealing your flag points, or killing a point monster.

[terrell707]

Rangers would be the losers here then.

FO: Lol razan razan razan razan razan.
Aerial reversals on all classes. That should make things more interesting.



Or maybe have Just Guard reflect bullet damage and effects? Bounce that weak bullet right back at 'em.

I really don't think that there's any need to nerf Mirage Escape, if they're just floating around all the time they're not really contributing at all

@Syklo Not exactly. With the way things are now, Rangers are the only class that is completely mobile even when they are attacking. Hunters are stuck in one position when attacking, Forces can move while charging their techs but they are a lot slower. Rangers can run and gun to their heart's content and not really have to stop (well depending on the weapon). And you're right all classes should have some sort of Aerial Recovery or make razan not lift enemies in the air as much or at all.

@Angelo Just Guarding a quick moving bullet may be pretty hard haha. Maybe a stance that allows guarding to reflect or deflect bullet damage? And with Mirage Escape, yeah you're right.

[Syklo]

If the technics/skills/PA's are kept as-is.
If any killing-related pvp is implemented
it's going to take a serious revamp on those skills or just make PvP adaptations like in most other action rpg's (e.g. dragon nest).

I'm still against that sort of pvp.

[Angelo]

@Angelo Just Guarding a quick moving bullet may be pretty hard haha. Maybe a stance that allows guarding to reflect or deflect bullet damage? And with Mirage Escape, yeah you're right.

Don't we block bullets all the time from the robots in the desert?

[Xaeris]

Sure, but those have a (relatively slow) flight time. So do a few ranged PAs like Sneak Shooter, but a lot of them, Elder Rebellion and Additional Bullet notably, don't have a visible projectile and deal their damage instantly.

[Kion]

I'm amazed at all the GU noobs who don't know about weak bullet + chain finish+ elder rebellion. Getting the counter up to 40 will is a pretty easy way to hit a string of 10k damage with 20-40k damage on the last couple of hits.

One dalk falz hands battle me and one other gunner did that and killed him outright. I'm always pretty upset that you see tons of people with twin hand guns running around and NEVER see chain or weak bullet from any of them. Sorry random rant mostly unrelated to the OP.

[Angelo]

I'm amazed at all the GU noobs who don't know about weak bullet + chain finish+ elder rebellion. Getting the counter up to 40 will is a pretty easy way to hit a string of 10k damage with 20-40k damage on the last couple of hits.

One dalk falz hands battle me and one other gunner did that and killed him outright. I'm always pretty upset that you see tons of people with twin hand guns running around and NEVER see chain or weak bullet from any of them. Sorry random rant mostly unrelated to the OP.

Maybe they're trying to have fun and not break the game?

[Syklo]

Maybe they're trying to have fun and not break the game?
This.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

Next time I fight I clone I'll weak bullet + chain finish + elder rebellion.
Make something easy even easier

[Kion]

Maybe they're trying to have fun and not break the game?

Really? No one else likes playing games like disgaea and doing outrages amounts of damage? I thought that building a character to that end was part of the point of playing an online game.

Also I thought this game was broken in general. Anyone else been in a tunnel MPA where a force kills everythign before it spawns with 3k on everything razonde?

[terrell707]

Lol. Seems PvE needs a big revamp like the non-existent PvP.

[Angelo]

Lol. Seems PvE needs a big revamp like the non-existent PvP.

I know this is the last thing people want to hear, but PvP is actually a pretty decent way to decide what needs to be balanced in PvE.

City of Heroes balanced PvE based on PvP feedback and it's probably the only online game I can think of where the classes were genuinely balanced and each class felt like it had a distinct role and flavor. A lot of the OP classes kicked and screamed at the beginning, but in the end everything worked out great (I actually played the most OP class at the time in that game).

[Cyclon]

I assumed people were using chain trigger, but that you could only see the ones from your group or something. I have yet to see one put by somebody else.

[Z-0]

Really? No one else likes playing games like disgaea and doing outrages amounts of damage? I thought that building a character to that end was part of the point of playing an online game.

Also I thought this game was broken in general. Anyone else been in a tunnel MPA where a force kills everythign before it spawns with 3k on everything razonde?
People only play PSO2 for kawaii dressup and whatnot.

Efficiency (or just doing damage) is in no-ones' interest (or hardly anyone). Apparently if you do said things, you're not having fun and are just a fgt douchebag elitist, like myself. \o/

Oh, and you can see other peoples' chain triggers and help them build. Just can't break them yourself.

[Xaeris]

I don't think that's a commonly held view.

Edit: Argh, you know what, sorry. I keep forgetting my New Year's resolution is to be less coy in my speech. Let me revise: that's not a commonly held view.

[Kion]

People only play PSO2 for kawaii dressup and whatnot.

Efficiency (or just doing damage) is in no-ones' interest (or hardly anyone). Apparently if you do said things, you're not having fun and are just a fgt douchebag elitist, like myself. \o/

Oh, and you can see other peoples' chain triggers and help them build. Just can't break them yourself.

You sir, win 100 internets for this post.

[Syklo]

]Efficiency (or just doing damage) is in no-ones' interest (or hardly anyone). Apparently if you do said things, you're not having fun and are just a fgt douchebag elitist, like myself. \o/

Oh, and you can see other peoples' chain triggers and help them build. Just can't break them yourself.

That's right fgt ^^^^
Except the not having fun part, if it's fun for them, whatever. What boils my blood is how much they brag about damage and what it means to them.

You could say I'm jealous of how OP they are, but I'm not. If i was as strong as them then fighting quartz dragon wouldn't be fun anymore.

And my gunner friend said other players can't assist in your chain trigger....

[Xaeris]

Other players can contribute to a chain. They just usually won't because only normal attacks will make it rise and other people will likely being doing photon arts. But yeah, I've had more than one chain saved by someone else's attack when I was out of position (damned arms covering for each other). Those people are my bestest friends.

[Cyclon]

Oh, and you can see other peoples' chain triggers and help them build. Just can't break them yourself.
Oh, okay then. Weird.
Thanks.

I know this is the last thing people want to hear, but PvP is actually a pretty decent way to decide what needs to be balanced in PvE.
As much as I hate to admit it, I've been thinking the same thing for a while now. My mentality basically went from "pvp would just destroy the community" to "well, maybe pvp would be a good thing in the end".

[NoiseHERO]

That's right fgt ^^^^
Except the not having fun part, if it's fun for them, whatever. What boils my blood is how much they brag about damage and what it means to them.

You could say I'm jealous of how OP they are, but I'm not. If i was as strong as them then fighting quartz dragon wouldn't be fun anymore.

You have it all wrong, we hate those "fgts" too.

Also fgts is regular team's word, don't spread that on PSOW. D<

I care about my stats to an extent, at least to the point of having something to do when there's no dressup update. But I don't boast about it...

THEN you have people here that are like "I'm an elitist!" like LOOOOOOL why the fuck would you even want to label yourself something that lame.

[gigawuts]

Guard Stance could have some flinch and knockback resist added to them. It already has poison and burn resist.

Or maybe have Just Guard reflect bullet damage and effects? Bounce that weak bullet right back at 'em.

I really don't think that there's any need to nerf Mirage Escape, if they're just floating around all the time they're not really contributing at all, and if Battle Mode is anything like the Portable series it will be objective based and not just 'lol kill every1 deathmatch'; If you sit around on your ass or waste time like that someone else is going to be attacking your base, stealing your flag points, or killing a point monster.

The topic has shifted a couple times since this post, but just want to add...

Flinch protection shouldn't be tied to guard stance, or any stance. It should be a core, easily accessed, and expectable ability of the class, easily accessed like weak bullet and PP revival. Without it hunter is lacking in its intended role: hitting things up close.

Sure, you can play without any kind of flinch guard. I do all the time. Hunter's still fun. It's just those instances where the 5 enemies around you all just happen to attack in tandem, based on their own independent RNG's. It's happened to every hunter. A set sadinian chops you, a sil sadinian bullet hits you from behind, a wyndera sweeps past, and during all of this a quartz dragon has begun and then commenced its charge attack. This happened to me just the other day. This is ignoring stuff like being literally juggled, where you get knocked airborne and kept airborne until you die. Something like that is 100% unavoidable once the first hit lands.

BS like this is what sells scapes, though, so I doubt it'll ever be removed on purpose. If they did fix it, a simple "Cannot be lifted again when already in the air" and "cannot be flinched during a flinch" skill would suffice, but I'm sure it'll be more like "5% chance to not be blablabla per level."

Iron will is a great skill, but guard stance and its flash guards are not. WAY too much SP for way too little gains.

[Opy]

As a hunter, i usually spam Wire Lance techniques like the one that grabs, spins and stuns them. As fighter i use daggers and keep distance and spam techs like symphonic drive that put you in and out quick.

the ranger and force clones can definitely be a pain in the arse though.

[Syklo]

The topic has shifted a couple times since this post, but just want to add...

Flinch protection shouldn't be tied to guard stance, or any stance. It should be a core, easily accessed, and expectable ability of the class, easily accessed like weak bullet and PP revival. Without it hunter is lacking in its intended role: hitting things up close.

Sure, you can play without any kind of flinch guard. I do all the time. Hunter's still fun. It's just those instances where the 5 enemies around you all just happen to attack in tandem, based on their own independent RNG's. It's happened to every hunter. A set sadinian chops you, a sil sadinian bullet hits you from behind, a wyndera sweeps past, and during all of this a quartz dragon has begun and then commenced its charge attack. This happened to me just the other day. This is ignoring stuff like being literally juggled, where you get knocked airborne and kept airborne until you die. Something like that is 100% unavoidable once the first hit lands.

BS like this is what sells scapes, though, so I doubt it'll ever be removed on purpose. If they did fix it, a simple "Cannot be lifted again when already in the air" and "cannot be flinched during a flinch" skill would suffice, but I'm sure it'll be more like "5% chance to not be blablabla per level."

Iron will is a great skill, but guard stance and its flash guards are not. WAY too much SP for way too little gains.
After reading this I shall possibly consider that they should add SOME sort of flinch/stun perk to hunters since they're so tank, but not fighters.

Fighters are just fine the way they are to me :)
Clones solo are easy talk

[Angelo]

The topic has shifted a couple times since this post, but just want to add...

Flinch protection shouldn't be tied to guard stance, or any stance. It should be a core, easily accessed, and expectable ability of the class, easily accessed like weak bullet and PP revival. Without it hunter is lacking in its intended role: hitting things up close.

Sure, you can play without any kind of flinch guard. I do all the time. Hunter's still fun. It's just those instances where the 5 enemies around you all just happen to attack in tandem, based on their own independent RNG's. It's happened to every hunter. A set sadinian chops you, a sil sadinian bullet hits you from behind, a wyndera sweeps past, and during all of this a quartz dragon has begun and then commenced its charge attack. This happened to me just the other day. This is ignoring stuff like being literally juggled, where you get knocked airborne and kept airborne until you die. Something like that is 100% unavoidable once the first hit lands.

BS like this is what sells scapes, though, so I doubt it'll ever be removed on purpose. If they did fix it, a simple "Cannot be lifted again when already in the air" and "cannot be flinched during a flinch" skill would suffice, but I'm sure it'll be more like "5% chance to not be blablabla per level."

Iron will is a great skill, but guard stance and its flash guards are not. WAY too much SP for way too little gains.

I agree that flinch protection would be better as their own skills. The Flash Guards are no joke though, they're pretty useful. I've built my HU/FI around tanking (10/10 in Warcry, Guard Stance, etc).

Back to the GU arguement... I can actually tank well when it comes to bosses and whatnot. Ragne for example I can hold it's face towards me while people pick on it's legs. The only problem is what Gunners come onto the scene because they do such obscene amounts of damage that their hate modifier goes through the roof (especially if they're using Showtime) and thus my utility as a Hunter is pretty much gone.

One of my suggestions in the last survey was to allow the defensive Hunters to hold enemy attention better.

[gigawuts]

After reading this I shall possibly consider that they should add SOME sort of flinch/stun perk to hunters since they're so tank, but not fighters.

Fighters are just fine the way they are to me :)
Clones solo are easy talk

Definitely. Fighter is a solid offensive support sub, and a great glass cannon at point blank. Deadly archer mashes things like nothing else.

But hunter...man. It's not bad at all, I mained it until fighter was added, but it's like techer. It has an intended role/subrole, but doesn't do it very well. Techer's not bad, it just doesn't have support skills nearly as good or gamechanging as force's offensive skills. Same with hunter and defense.

Hunter would become a viable sub for tanking if it got flinch guard of some kind. Maybe even JUST during PA's - give super armor to every PA. This would be great, and would not mix with charging techs (Which seems to be the intent).

Iron will was an AWESOME addition to hunter. It was very badly needed and really helps with things you don't see coming in CQC, and really lets you relax a bit as a melee user (hu/anything but especially fi/hu or hu/fi). Other classes get the leisure of advanced notice, protection of range, and a fuller view of every enemy; melee users get essentially none of these things. Iron will lets you go balls to the walls.

I'd also like a mate carrying capacity skill for the guard tree, and the flash guards condensed, but not expecting those either.

But this is off topic.

[Kion]

[spoiler-box]http://files.chesscomfiles.com/images_users/tiny_mce/adude23/thread_hijack_in_progress_cnn.jpg[/spoiler-box]
This is the topic now.

For gunner it would be nice to see a nerf for elder rebelion. That's pretty much the only PA anybody uses and it's only because that's the only way to get a lot of high dps for multiple mobs or just in general. It would be nice to see elder get a nerf combined with buffing the other PA's so that people are encouraged to find more PA combinations, attacks and play styles with gunner.

The other nice thing would be a change to how subclasses work. Right now added the skill tree and a slight stat buff really means it's a small boost to your main class. Right now pretty much everyone is either GU/RA, FO/TE, or FI/HU. Being able to equip a sub classes weapons would be a nice start, maybe with higher stat boosts on the subclass would get people to experiment with more play styles.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

That's pretty much the only PA anybody use
Infinity Fire?

[Kion]

Infinite Fire?

Blasphemy.

[MetalDude]

Give Satellite Aim a bit more range and make Messiah Time actually capable of hitting things and they might get used more.

[Cyclon]

Give Satellite Aim a bit more range and make Messiah Time actually capable of hitting things and they might get used more.
Messiah time's fine. For quick damage that doesn't send the ennemy all over the place, use the first part, then cancel. For the second part to hit, do it in the air, but very close to the ground. Properly used in the face of a boss, the second part is also very damaging. Loads of invicibilty frames, looks awesome. I like it.

Also the strongest PA(or rather the overused ones) will most likely not get any substantial damage boost from 15 to 16, just like they did from 10 to 11 for the likes of Rafoie, Sonic arrow, etc. If low level pvp exists at some point, that will pose a real problem, but for now, meh, it works.

Also I'm not worried, other overpowered PAs will take their place. That's how it works apparently.

[Acel]

Obviously you guys have NEVER met any Fire build quickcast Force clones that spam RaFoie only. LOL I cant wait to see your expressions when you finally meet one... all this talk about other techs etc are just silly, nothing charges faster than Fire and regrettably also more BS than the com controlled clones with instant Rafoie... I WOULD LIKE TO WATCH YOU TRY AND RUN if they jump you first (spawn on you).