Daggers/Height Cap Nerf

[LinkKD]

I noticed that since the last update, or the one before, the "height cap" system Sega implemented on PSO2 has gotten worse.

When it was first implemented, upon your character reaching a certain height (that was relative to the height you were right before you left the ground) your character wouldnt be able to attack anymore untill you were below that height cap. The way this was, we could still start attacking again, while still airbone, as soon as we were bellow the height cap.

But after this last update, once you reach the height cap, your character gets unable to do anything and falls in a helpess state untill you hit the floor again...you can't do anything, even after you're already below the height cap thing. On top of that, it seems they made the height cap even shorter...in a way that I already get "action-locked" if I simply try to Raging Waltz a falz hand's back side while its charging the flick attack...that height is already the cap.

Was I the only one that noticed this? I find it really stupid how they give us a PA that allows us to go that high easily, but at the same time they implement a system that penalizes us for doing what the PA allows us to do |: ...

I would like to know if this change to this system where you cant even do any actions anymore untill you hit the ground again is a bug or not. And if I'm the only one that finds this system thoroughly stupid and harming to daggers |: (I mean, I can understand they had ar eason to implement such a system...but I think they could solve the problem in a different way, without nerfing the daggers in the process =.=' )

[Dnd]

Not sure about the height cap being shorter, what I DID notice is after doing a raging waltz you HAVE to do an action when you have the blue/red timing circle around your character, otherwise you will just fall to the floor as you said.

Pre-patch, i would do a RW, fall a little bit then start attacks again (Say, on the ragne brain/red weak spot). Now i HAVE to do a just attack, then fall a little bit to get to the right height, then begin attacks.

I'll mess around more with (specific) height testing later on, the ragne is the best thing to test it on, outside of falz arms

[Crysteon]

Yeah, I have noticed that with Raging Waltz as well. There are times it totally locks your attack button and you end up falling helplessly. It's annoying when you try to kill a Ragne with this method and you suddenly run out of PP.....

[Soultrigger]

I don't use Daggers at all, but I also noticed Raging Waltz being severely gimped in utility since I was unable to drop and attack like before. I also noticed the Gear doesn't charge upon a full jump unless you have your weapon out, but I don't know if this was part of the earlier nerf.

[Ryock]

Yeah, I have noticed that with Raging Waltz as well. There are times it totally locks your attack button and you end up falling helplessly. It's annoying when you try to kill a Ragne with this method and you suddenly run out of PP.....

Thankfully it's a bug. Sega has already spoken up about this problem. Really made me sad too =(

[blace]

This had clarified why it was so hard to fight Vol Dragon and Ragne lately. Hopefully, it's fixed in the next update.

[ShinMaruku]

I hope while in fixing that they fix the dagger skills as well.

[Syklo]

TO those of you complaining about falling-after-waltz:

Just twirl on impact and you won't rise in the first place...

[LinkKD]

Oh I understand...so the bug is actually in the PA itself...it just comboed with the height cap and made me think that.

Since we have to do an action right after raging waltz to not fall helplessly after using it, due to this bug...and...once you reach the height cap with raging waltz, you cant rly attack (because of the height cap) untill your height drops a little, that also means you WILL fall helpessly no matter what if you raging waltz and "fly too high".

so they never really moved on the height cap...just the PA is bugged, and that comboed with the height cap to make it look like the cap itself was changed =w= haha

I'm glad it will be fixed, relieving to know.

@ShinMaruku

You misunderstood the problem, the bug IS in the "dagger skill"...and it will be fixed.

Unless that by "dagger skill" you meant something else other than Raging Waltz. o.o is there any other problem with daggers besides this?


TO those of you complaining about falling-after-waltz:

Just twirl on impact and you won't rise in the first place...


I do that, that's not what we're complaining about at all...we're complaining about NOT being able to drop after waltz...and sometimes we have to drop lower than where we'd end up by swirling upon impact =w=

Plus, obviously, if I reach the height cap with raging waltz, I cant swirl at all on the impact, I already instinctly press the swirl, but Youmu does nothing but fall to the ground helplessly due to how the height cap + the raging waltz PA bug act up.


I don't use Daggers at all, but I also noticed Raging Waltz being severely gimped in utility since I was unable to drop and attack like before. I also noticed the Gear doesn't charge upon a full jump unless you have your weapon out, but I don't know if this was part of the earlier nerf.

The thing about the gear not charging without the weapon being out was always there since daggers were implemented...and I think it's not exactly a bug. The idea is that no gear should be charged unless the weapon is out I think...this can be true as a whole, since the only weapon that could possibly has it's gear charged without needing to have it out already, is daggers, and it doesn't.

[Syklo]

I do that, that's not what we're complaining about at all...we're complaining about NOT being able to drop after waltz...and sometimes we have to drop lower than where we'd end up by swirling upon impact =w=


Really? When would you need to do that?
And you can just let yourself fall after twirl.....or does the bug still apply for that too? :x
It's still a bug that needs fixing, I'll agree on that (it's practically essential for me to take out vardha's shoulder cannons), but otherwise doesn't affect me :P

[CelestialBlade]

Good to hear that it's a bug. It's really easy to work around (just do the Shift dodge right when the JA circle appears, as has been said) but it's certainly an unnecessary evil to a weapon that hardly needs any gimping relative to other Fighter weapons.

[Soultrigger]

The thing about the gear not charging without the weapon being out was always there since daggers were implemented...and I think it's not exactly a bug. The idea is that no gear should be charged unless the weapon is out I think...this can be true as a whole, since the only weapon that could possibly has it's gear charged without needing to have it out already, is daggers, and it doesn't.

You're right, I watched early vids of Twin Daggers and it was still the case. I disagree with the choice of design however in that in terms of "consistency", there really isn't any other weapon that follows that arbitrary rule. Add the fact that Twin Daggers are supposed to be about mobility, it seems backwards to force players into awkward setups when every other gear is relatively straightforward to utilize (excluding Partizan, which is built on the premise of charging up).

[Rien]

They're just trying to promote the use of Orchestra and Quick March because those two don't help you stay up very much. In the very least Dark Scherzo knocks things towards you and Symphonic Drive can fly upwards.

[Opy]

i thought i was just failing at daggers for some reason, glad I saw this. I is getting annoying to use daggers. Sometimes you want to drop a little after using raging waltz. I dont understand that update...

[LinkKD]

Really? When would you need to do that?
And you can just let yourself fall after twirl.....or does the bug still apply for that too? :x
It's still a bug that needs fixing, I'll agree on that (it's practically essential for me to take out vardha's shoulder cannons), but otherwise doesn't affect me :P


Good to hear that it's a bug. It's really easy to work around (just do the Shift dodge right when the JA circle appears, as has been said) but it's certainly an unnecessary evil to a weapon that hardly needs any gimping relative to other Fighter weapons.

You guys are not getting it at all |: ...the main issue about this bug is when it combos with the height cap...there is NO WAY AROUND IT, as you can't swirl upon impact if you raging waltzed something that was already above the height cap you can reach (for example, falz hands when they are forming that "tower" thingy, or falz arms on elder form when he's holding the plataform to do his huge "stomp" attack...the breakable ones of couse, when they're not already broken)

Before the bug, I would be unable to attack or swirl at all upong raging waltz such high targets, but I'd just need to let my character drop slightly and then I'd be able to attack it again. Now all I can do the most is do one raging waltz and then fall helplessly to the ground when targetting these high positioned targets.

And the situation where falling after raging waltz would be useful (and the bug doesnt combo with the height cap) is where you want to simply adjust your position, when your true target isnt what the raging waltz actually went for and it just slightly below it. It doesn't happen often, but since I try to use daggers a lot with Youmu, I'm used to it already.

Exmaple: you raging waltz a enemy, and there's another one right next to it, the raging waltz kills the first enemy right away and you want to drop a bit close to ground level to go and hit the other that was right there and still within in your range, without having to lose your gear.

Thought I know that swirling would allow me to drop like this afterwards, sometimes you didn't plan to swirl to start with, you wanted to continue the combo after the raging waltz with an attack or other PA, and you only feel like dropping after you see the result of the raging waltz, or how the enemy positions changed...it's a rare situation, yeah, but...it can still be anoying even without the height cap.

The main issue though is when the height cap is involved though, anw.

[Ryuvos]

And i thought it was my mouse acting weird as i cant attack mid air aft raging waltz (nor can i shift as well)

good thing i saw this XD

[Ezodagrom]

Looks like the Raging Waltz bug will only be fixed in February. :\
http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=853

[gigawuts]

The thing about the gear not charging without the weapon being out was always there since daggers were implemented...and I think it's not exactly a bug. The idea is that no gear should be charged unless the weapon is out I think...this can be true as a whole, since the only weapon that could possibly has it's gear charged without needing to have it out already, is daggers, and it doesn't.

Double sabers charge when you use the whirlwind and then sheathe the weapon to run faster/hover. So, no, this would be a special case with daggers.

[CelestialBlade]

Looks like the Raging Waltz bug will only be fixed in February. :\
http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=853
Fair enough. If it were any earlier it'd probably take an emergency maintenance and everyone would just bitch about that instead.

I dunno, I don't use Daggers much anymore so I'm really not all that bothered by this. I used to use them pretty religiously against bosses like Ragne and Zeshrayda but honestly I find it much faster to assault their legs with a Double Saber anymore. Too much downtime having to reposition yourself sometimes.

[Dnd]

Killed a ragne that turned out to be rare this morning (yay for no drops!) anyway, I decided to fraps it about half way through - the only time I stop attacking is when I hit the hard height cap (ie, the same situation as pre-patch) - but after hitting that, I've always just fallen to the floor in the past, so i assumed that was a feature. ill mess around with the ruins boss later, as he/she/it is taller.

That or i just appear to be immune to the bug with the pa o_o'

http://youtu.be/O1iEEoSzIH4 - might be a little bit loud, but as you see here, ragne dispatched without any issues or bugs :s

[LinkKD]

Double sabers charge when you use the whirlwind and then sheathe the weapon to run faster/hover. So, no, this would be a special case with daggers.

Oh...lol. I never actually did that, so I didn't know. This only applies to DSes though, right? I can't think of any other weapon that could charge the gear while being unsehathed...though yeah, that sorta breaks what I said =w=.


Killed a ragne that turned out to be rare this morning (yay for no drops!) anyway, I decided to fraps it about half way through - the only time I stop attacking is when I hit the hard height cap (ie, the same situation as pre-patch) - but after hitting that, I've always just fallen to the floor in the past, so i assumed that was a feature. ill mess around with the ruins boss later, as he/she/it is taller.

That or i just appear to be immune to the bug with the pa o_o'

http://youtu.be/O1iEEoSzIH4 - might be a little bit loud, but as you see here, ragne dispatched without any issues or bugs :s

But...in your video you ALWAYS attacked right after the raging waltz...the bug happens when you raging waltz and dont attack or swirl after the JA time of raging waltz is over. If you dont attack or swirl after it's JA time is over, you just fall to the ground helplessly.

And no, before the patch, you couldn't do any action right after reaching the height cap with a raging waltz, BUT you could indeed start attacking again before hitting the ground, as long as you dropped under the height cap. Most people never really noticed this though I guess, because once they realized that they couldn't attack right after the raging waltz they just did because of the height cap, they just gave up pressing anything untill they hit the floor.

But if you did press the attack button after dropping your altitude a bit, you would start attacking again before hitting the ground. This isn't possible anymore, since the PA is bugged in a way that if you don't attack or swirl right after Raging Waltz, you'll just fall helplessly.

Then again, the real problem mostly only applies when the PA bug and the height cap combine...which isn't too often, yeah.

I'm ok with waiting for the fix...it's not a major gimp or anything, I'd just feel annoyed if this was an actual nerf by Sega or something |: . Like..."hey look, this weapon isn't OP or anything at all! LET'S NERF IT!! :D" <_>

[Dnd]

If you dont attack or swirl after it's JA time is over, you just fall to the ground helplessly.


I noticed that after the patch update, so I just changed the order in how I did two button presses to continue to do what I normally did. (attacking then falling slightly, instead of falling slightly then attacking)

I honestly think that's just a slightly changed feature and im fine with it, adding a slight punishing feature to mis-timing something makes you focus slightly more anyway ^-^. I've only experienced the raging waltz bug once so far in 30+ hours of using daggers after the patch aswell. the height cap should never really be an issue either, unless your chasing stuff like ragnes when they jump :3

[gigawuts]

I noticed that after the patch update, so I just changed the order in how I did two button presses to continue to do what I normally did. (attacking then falling slightly, instead of falling slightly then attacking)

I honestly think that's just a slightly changed feature and im fine with it, adding a slight punishing feature to mis-timing something makes you focus slightly more anyway ^-^. I've only experienced the raging waltz bug once so far in 30+ hours of using daggers after the patch aswell. the height cap should never really be an issue either, unless your chasing stuff like ragnes when they jump :3

Except they've confirmed it's a bug and have said they'll fix it.

[ShinMaruku]

I'm waiting for them to buff the dagger skills tbh. Because I hardly use em

[untrustful]

I hate any nerf dealing with height, they also fixed certain spots in maps that you used to be able to stand on and show off your skills as a dagger user (mechgun user too). Now I can't climb the highest peaks, fly the sky, or do awesome stuff like that.

Well there's this one forest part you can stand on (pros only; the top of the cave is walkable):
http://i.imgur.com/EE9WW8u.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GvibcAS.jpg

[Punisher106]

Good thing it's a bug they're assessing. I thought they nerfed it, and kind of abandoned my daggers to use Deadly Archer spam with my double saber, and that cost me dearly.

[LinkKD]

the height cap should never really be an issue either, unless your chasing stuff like ragnes when they jump :3

......or falz hands when they're doing the tower thing, falz hands's back when they're charging the flick attack, falz arms on elder when he's doing the stomp attack, some airbone enemies, vardha shoulder missiles...etc...

>_>''

I find completely stupid how I can reach the falz hands tower thing with raging waltz so I can try to help bring it down...but when I get up there, I can't attack |: ...and now not only that, but I fall to the ground helplessly.

This IS NOT a good thing...imo there shouldn't be any height cap at all, when they give us a weapon+PA that ALLOWS us to go up there, when there IS A TARGET up there for us to hit...but then the height cap is like "no, nope, you shouldn't be up here, go down fella".

|:

if a height ceiling is really necessary, just make an invisible wall ceiling and make it apply to enemies aswell, this way we wont ever find ourselves in the situation we get to targets in the air but can't really attack them.

[Syklo]

You guys are not getting it at all |: ...the main issue about this bug is when it combos with the height cap...there is NO WAY AROUND IT, as you can't swirl upon impact if you raging waltzed something that was already above the height cap you can reach (for example, falz hands when they are forming that "tower" thingy, or falz arms on elder form when he's holding the plataform to do his huge "stomp" attack...the breakable ones of couse, when they're not already broken)


I DO GET IT, THAT'S WHY I MENTIONED THAT VARDHA EXAMPLE BECAUSE I GET THE HEIGHT CAP THING PRE-PATCH AND POST-PATCH.
Normally I would have to fall a bit to even start attacking the cannons, but this "bug" prevents us from doing that. What I'm saying though, is that's probably the only instance where it matters to ME.

[LinkKD]

I DO GET IT, THAT'S WHY I MENTIONED THAT VARDHA EXAMPLE BECAUSE I GET THE HEIGHT CAP THING PRE-PATCH AND POST-PATCH.
Normally I would have to fall a bit to even start attacking the cannons, but this "bug" prevents us from doing that. What I'm saying though, is that's probably the only instance where it matters to ME.

Oh, ok =w='

mybad Syklo

[Stormwalker]

It also poses a serious problem when engaging Ragne or Vol with daggers. With Ragne's weakpoint and Vol's top horn, RW'ing when locked onto that target carries you significantly above the target height. Before the bug, you could just allow yourself to fall back to the target height and then start attacking. Resets your combo, but otherwise no problem.

Now, if you don't take an action before the end of JA window, you will fall all the way to the ground and not be able to act at all. So you have two options... you can intentionally whiff a melee attack during the JA window, or you can parry. Either one of these delays your fall. Given that you have a pretty narrow window of time to get your hits in (and recover your PP) before the boss moves out of the tiny reach of your daggers, this delay can be the difference between recovering enough PP for another RW to keep you on-target, or not.

Since riding a boss' weakpoint is really the only viable use for daggers anyway (their dps is too low to be practical for anything else, in my opinion), this bug kinda kills the utility of the weapon. Hopefully they fix it soon.

[Macman]

So you have two options... you can intentionally whiff a melee attack during the JA window, or you can parry.
I do this anyway just to fill up my Gear gauge. I guess I never really noticed the problem.

[Soultrigger]

I hate any nerf dealing with height, they also fixed certain spots in maps that you used to be able to stand on and show off your skills as a dagger user (mechgun user too). Now I can't climb the highest peaks, fly the sky, or do awesome stuff like that.

I doubt this is possible anymore, lol...
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d87/seventhlimit/pso20121201_054130_002.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[untrustful]

Well it's technically possible if you find a really high point in the map to jump from. Without a high point, yea it's impossible.

[Stormwalker]

I do this anyway just to fill up my Gear gauge. I guess I never really noticed the problem.

My practice for building gear has always been Jump -> Parry -> RW.

[Syklo]

Now, if you don't take an action before the end of JA window, you will fall all the way to the ground and not be able to act at all. So you have two options... you can intentionally whiff a melee attack during the JA window, or you can parry. Either one of these delays your fall.

Or as i said before:
Parry/twirl BEFORE YOU EVEN RISE IN THE FIRST PLACE (on impact), provided the waltz itself doesn't go past the "cap"
Then you don't even need to wait to fall.

[Opy]

Yeah, I dash forward first, jump, then spin and my gear is full.