Whats up with the class balance? - Gunner

[Penndragon]

Just so you can get a little bit of background about my experience so far with PSO2, I have been playing for about 2 weeks. I gave up waiting for this game to come out here and gave it a chance (I was skeptical on how playable it was with the english patch and I was done with how Sega of America is handling info with this game coming over). I wanted to play something similar to what I used to back when I played PSU which was a Fortegunner. I was one of those guys who was crazy enough to level all those rifle bullets to max rank back in the day. But as soon as I hit Gunner, which i planned on subbing at first this all changed. I am confused as to what is going on with the damage this class puts out and all this gets packed together with the dodge system this class has going on with it. I was really enjoying the game until all this just hit me and how easily this class just pretty much destroys everything and how much ranger is trash compared to it. I am still going to level these two classes up to max and experience the rest of the game but it is really depressing how blatantly OP this class feels right now. I am hoping that all this starts scaling down later but when I started looking at the power multipliers on http://cirnopedia.frostsabre.com/, its pretty obvious whats the problem is. Not only that but their tree is just full of very useful skills. Is this the current state of the game or does this change later?

[Lumpen Thingy]

Gunner/ranger becomes the best boss killer at higher level but if you want ranger to good you really have to sub fighter for the stances. As for everything else force/techers are the best mob killers while hunter/fighters can kill both bosses and mobs fairly well. Gunner/ranger is by far the cheapest class in the game for bosses but its no where as great for mobs versus other classes.

[Z-0]

Ranger >>> Gunner.

[Skyly HUmar]

Ranger >>> Gunner.

This!

Im also starting to rethink what I said about gunner being funner than ranger. All they really do now is spam elder rebelion and infinity fire. I can kill wonda's with 1 current hold, but not when the things are flying 30 meters above me.

[Bellion]

A strong launcher(Playing as a RA over a GU) with Rodeo Drive, Divine Launcher, and Cluster Bullet is much more useful. Don't count on getting a Flame Visit for your Gunner. As far as boss killing goes, Weak Bullet and Homing Emission is all you'll really need.

I can't even play Gunner now since I don't have a Flame Visit and I can't use my SSPN with it as my main class.

[ShilohSham]

Play either
RA/HU with the JA boost and fury

Or

RA/Te with the PP regen and weakness element

then play gunner

sadly gunner like poorly made one trick pony.... that in my eyes is very god boring after you remove all its flashy moves and find out this is what you doing for each boss

WB-Chain to about 20- then elder for most if not all bosses =[

[Coatl]

GU/RA is the bossslayer but it's a pretty mediocre mob killer. :s
As for RA being better than GU, I can't down a banther in 10 seconds as an RA. :s
But I have to give props to RA for being the better support class with maxed out weak bullet.

Also, launchers are BORING.


Play either
RA/HU with the JA boost and fury

Or

RA/Te with the PP regen and weakness element

then play gunner

sadly gunner like poorly made one trick pony.... that in my eyes is very god boring after you remove all its flashy moves and find out this is what you doing for each boss

WB-Chain to about 20- then elder for most if not all bosses =[

RA/HU or RA/FI are both pretty optimal imo.
More optimal, I'd say, than RA/GU.

[Sp-24]

Also, launchers are BORING.

Oh no you didn't. Cluster Bullet is really fun to manually aim, and it's the reason why I've been using Launchers so often as a Ranger (well, that, and also because Launchers are so goddamn powerful and I can't equip the only decent Rifle that I have yet).

[Coatl]

Oh no you didn't. Cluster Bullet is really fun to manually aim, and it's the reason why I've been using Launchers so often as a Ranger (well, that, and also because Launchers are so goddamn powerful and I can't equip the only decent Rifle that I have yet).

*z-shape snaps*

Sorry but seeing as how to get the best out of lawnchairs (standing snipe bonus) on a weapon that is only really good at killing monsters, the gameplay gets really monotonous for me. :s

[Terrence]

Sadly gunner like poorly made one trick pony (...) WB-Chain to about 20- then elder for most if not all bosses =[RAnger = WB when available then One Point fury.
HUnter = Sonic Arrow to get close then Over End x999.
FOrce = Spamming the same Technique(s) over and over.
TEcher = Technique to get close then Normal Geared Attacks.

... ... ...

If you want to go this way, ALL CLASSES are boring ! =/

[Sp-24]

I know that FIghter may be too obvious to even mention, but still, why not?

[Galax]

I think the reason gunner has such insane attack mods on some PAs is that Twinguns do SHIT DAMAGE to start with. I use an Ishurai; The wooden mechguns? I do 27-30 on hardmode with my normal attack. It's really horrible. So naturally I need a damned 500% boost from THAT to make my PAs do anything.

On GU being better than RA...It depends on your playstyle. Personally, I friggin' love flipping around with my twinguns. I'm patiently leveling it to use my launcher I got from trading in those stones you get from Falz; It won't be long now. Then I can use ALL the weapons as GURA; Flip around launching Elder Rebellion and land to do a dead approach sataim combo, backflip onto a ledge and switch to my rifle for some homing emission/sneak shooter combos, then jump into the air after pulling out my launcher and rain hell upon what's left.

Also, the above is the other side to what GU and RA could do; You don't have to sit there and spam cracker bullet or elder rebellion. You could...you know...switch up your pas and have some fun if the setup you use currently is getting boring.

EDIT: Oh and Gunner is really only overpowered in a bossfight, see the previous statements about 10-second bossfight not happening on RA.

[Bellion]

RAnger = WB when available then Sneak shooter, Homing Emission, or One Point fury.
HUnter = Sonic Arrow to get close then Over End x999.
FOrce = Spamming the same Technique(s) over and over.
TEcher = Technique to get close then Normal Geared Attacks.


Fixed it a bit. As for TE, that would depend on your classes, race, and affixes. My techs easily out damage the wand gear attacks.

[MetalDude]

Go GU/RA and WB-CF-Homing Emission does even more work.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Force is way more OP. GU/RA can look overpowered because it's easy to see bosses die 10x quicker. Forces make everything else die 10x quicker.

Though if you want to talk underpowered, that would be another matter. Techer being completely obsoleted by Force, Fighter being a one trick pony (Double Saber), and Hunter + Fighter sharing the issue that you're working harder than everyone else just because of your short range.

[MetalDude]

I really don't think HU-FI have any issues when you're in a regular party; they have, by far, the best sustainable damage out there between Assault Buster, Sonic Arrow, Deadly Archer (and Acro Effect which is still pretty strong and much safer), and Straight Charge. By nature, MPAs are never going to be a good environment for them.

[gigawuts]

Force is way more OP. GU/RA can look overpowered because it's easy to see bosses die 10x quicker. Forces make everything else die 10x quicker.

Though if you want to talk underpowered, that would be another matter. Techer being completely obsoleted by Force, Fighter being a one trick pony (Double Saber), and Hunter + Fighter sharing the issue that you're working harder than everyone else just because of your short range.

This is pretty much a perfect breakdown of class balance. I feel like there's room to go more in-depth, but it's really not necessary for most people to get the point of class balance right now. Still, some might like it.

Some parts of my breakdown assumes a spec sub (gu/ra or ra/gu for instance) but other parts don't. It's hit and miss and aspects of playstyle, preference, and class selection will vary widely. At the core of it, gameplay tends to pretty closely hug this.

Melee can accomplish feats, but it requires travel time ranged and techs do not to even deal damage in the first place. At close quarters they take more hits of all damage types despite not having any particular defense advantage. Just Guard is only useful in one direction, etc. it's very gimmicky and poorly designed given the other class types. It does not have burst damage for AOE or single target. In theory it's the best choice for sustained damage, and it was until we got subclasses with PP bonuses, except ranged and techs aren't even bad at that anymore so that's not a valid balancing point anymore. Deadly archer offers solid burst damage that's tough to match, but only at arm's length.

Ranged has the best single-target damage and pretty great defense options for its only weaknesses. It also has a very easily accessed very powerful defensive skill in gunner if you're maining or subbing it, with automate deadline. People put this down, but it is so easy to be so lazy with it. In the end this is even better at defense than melee with all its skills designed for defense simply because it can stay so far away while dealing all of its damage, and cancel all mechgun attacks with invuln frame flipping. The single-target burst damage of a ra/gu or gu/ra is unparalleled with its comboed weak bullet and chain trigger, but keep in mind it only works on one single target.

Techs are fantastic for both AOE and single-target damage, being able to use very good attacks from behind obstructions that bosses will not know to walk around. 90% of the time I have aggro from a banther, I'm hiding behind a pillar that it just keeps stomping into while I spam grants on hits head. Its head that is inside the pillar and nobody else in the party can hit. Kind of a jerk move sometimes, other times it's simply too hilariously easy to not do. Techs obviously are the king of AOE and devastate anything within 10 meters. Want to be the star of the show during a PSE burst? Get gigrants and keep dropping your PP fishy. The fire tree lets you dish out incredible damage if you sub a fighter, or even if you sub a techer.

[Kirine]

Gu/Ra isn't best at everything, but in terms of boss slaying, it's the easiest thing to do. Really, anyone can shoot a weak point, get 20 chain, then elder it to death.

However, try other classes, they really are fun. I enjoy playing as a fighter.

[Coatl]

Yeah fighter is definitely the most enjoyable class. More specifically, double sabers are the funnest weapon. Mostly because I think it's the most rewarding. You can accomplish large feats with enough skill, timing, and knowledge.

Not saying that the same isn't true for gunner. But the skill curve is much lower. :I

[Seravi Edalborez]

Not saying that the same isn't true for gunner. But the skill curve is much lower. :I

You won't hear me deny that :3

[oratank]

http://nicoviewer.net/sm19292007
gunner stylish

[Penndragon]

Appreciate all the discussion, started doing more research and looked into the hunter and fighter trees. These look way more useful for ranger.

[gigawuts]

Hunter has some pretty fantastic sub damage options for both striking AND ranged damage. JA Bonus and Fury Stance are very powerful, and with stem attack you even get to augment the gunslash with JA on the first PA in the combo (If you mix combos, I don't when I play ranger but I do when I play melee). It's good for any direction, and adds much more damage than it would seem at face value.

Fighter is a universally good sub, since the stances boost ALL damage in that one direction.

[Stormwalker]

My take, as someone who has played a lot of Gunner: it's a lot of fun to play, and it looks awesome, but it's not an efficient way to play the game. If that's what you're concerned about, Gunner will disappoint you (unless you have a Flame Visit, at which point you instantly have the best of both GU and RA worlds).

If you're all about style, though, Gunner has that in spades.

I play my Gunner for the fun of it, really. Just to enjoy the look and feel of the class. Since I don't play FO all that much and don't really enjoy RA, when I want to mow down mobs quickly I have to turn to my FI/HU. Gunner is nice for obliterating bosses quickly with minimum risk, however.

Of the classes I've played (which is to say, not techer), in terms of overall killing efficiency, I'd say that FO > RA > FI > HU > GU

But then, this is a Sega game. If we were expecting good class balance, the joke's on us, right?

[Chik'Tikka]

Appreciate all the discussion, started doing more research and looked into the hunter and fighter trees. These look way more useful for ranger.

they are+^_^+ I'm currently subbing HU with all skills set for JA Boost and Fury Stance+^_^+ with my main a RA with weak it advance and standing snipe, it's working out quite well+^_^+

[LANX]

http://nicoviewer.net/sm19292007
gunner stylish

this is impossible to do now, they nerf the gunner's air sustainability to the ground..

[FacelessRed]

As a Hunter/Fighter.

I hate the way range was handled in this game. Every game makes the mistake of over-powering the long range classes. Longer range should = lower damage, not HIGHER. this formula always fails a game.

It's a shame as well because this game is pretty close to what I would consider combat greatness for an MO.

But being a hunter partnered with a force can be super frustrating. Everything you walk up to is already dead.

Force and all ranged classes need a huge skill nerf. OR a new set of enemy moves that ACTUALLY COUNTERS long rangers. as it is now, just stand really far away and evaporate everything is the big thing.

[The Walrus]

>stand far away as force

SOMEONE HAS OBVIOUSLY NEVER SEEN THE PRODEEL SPAMMERS OF SHIP 10

[FacelessRed]

>stand far away as force

SOMEONE HAS OBVIOUSLY NEVER SEEN THE PRODEEL SPAMMERS OF SHIP 10

Who are you talking to?

[The Walrus]

You obviously



EDIT: heh post 666

[FacelessRed]

You obviously



EDIT: heh post 666

Well allow me to say

I have no Idea what you're talking about. And use quotes because it isn't obvious. especially since you didn't even quote me properly.

[The Walrus]

Why would I ever need to quote the post directly above mine that I'm replying to especially when I'm mentioning something you said?

And I'm talking about the tech Zondeel which casts around the force.

[Coatl]

Why would I ever need to quote the post directly above mine that I'm replying to especially when I'm mentioning something you said?

And I'm talking about the tech Zondeel which casts around the force.

I also refered to it as suicidal Technique for the first days I had it. :B

[Seravi Edalborez]

this is impossible to do now, they nerf the gunner's air sustainability to the ground..

Can't do Aerial Shooting for QUICK easy height gain anymore, but you can still keep height fairly reliably and build slowly with flips or Bullet Squall.

[gigawuts]

Yeah I'm not sure what game anyone is playing where GU is less effective than HU for most gametypes, assuming you sub RA with GU.

[ShinMaruku]

I like the gunner just destroying bosses in seconds I like when annoying bosses just get nailed..

[UnLucky]

Yeah I'm not sure what game anyone is playing where GU is less effective than HU for most gametypes, assuming you sub RA with GU.
Well if it's just trash mobs, you wouldn't get much out of Gunner. Just becomes an inferior Ranger at that point. But with better 'melee' damage, so, ah, sorry hunters.

[D-Inferno]

I've said this before, but this is what happens when SEGA decides to split TD/DS/Knuc/TMG/Wand off of Hunter, Ranger, and Force. Gunner and Techer's half-assed trees (especially the latter; who is currently inferior to Fighter as a sub for Force). The introduction of Stances from Fighter doesn't help (tbh, I kind of don't like having to keep track of which side of the enemy I'm hitting to get optimal damage). Obviously is the result of SEGA being greedy with people using AC to repair their messed up Skill Tree combinations, as well as to shoehorn more leveling into the game.

Granted, you can still use all class weapons, but actually finding certain weapons can be annoying at times. I also dislike thart RA/FI (and HU/RA somewhat) are effectively better than RA/GU, since it basically ensures a segregation from Mechs with the best DPS for Rifles and Launchers.

[Aine]

RaFi is far better than GuRa in just about any situation, including bosses (unless you're soloing a mid-boss so there's only one spawn, or you're ignoring destruction points on a large boss).

I'd even go as far to say that Gu is worse than melee at dealing with trash mobs. Hunters/Fighters can deal 10000+ damage against a group of enemies with Assault Buster, which is also the fastest movement PA so you'll rarely fall behind.

[Limbo_lag]

Additional bullet is all you need for trash mobs (as Gu/Ra) really. 28PP, quick execution, and good cone AoE damage.

Gu also has access to rifles, with PAs like grenade/diffuse shots, which is fairly good at dealing with mobs. Less damage than Hu/Fi, perhaps, but depending on what melee weapon you're comparing with, they might have more AoE, in addition to a ranged advantage.

[gigawuts]

glory rain

additional bullet

diffuse shell

bullet squall

what trash mob "problems"?

[Galax]

I thought the reason they were called trash mobs was that they aren't a problem to deal with by the time you can classify it as trash; Namely, the fact that by the time any enemy or opposing force is so weak compared to you and your attacks and/or defenses that you can say it is a trash enemy, it is no longer a threat, thus, there can be no problem because it can't do jack shit to you.

...Do I have that right?

[Seravi Edalborez]

I thought the reason they were called trash mobs was that they aren't a problem to deal with by the time you can classify it as trash; Namely, the fact that by the time any enemy or opposing force is so weak compared to you and your attacks and/or defenses that you can say it is a trash enemy, it is no longer a threat, thus, there can be no problem because it can't do jack shit to you.

...Do I have that right?

They're trash all the same, but would you rather take out the trash one piece at a time (Elder Rebellion) or all in a bag (Launcher/Gunslash stuff)?

Either way it's in the trash bin, but one is quicker. Analogy maybe a little exaggerated.

[UnLucky]

And melee classes only come to pick up the trash once a week, and sometimes over an hour after they said they'd be there. AND don't even flip over the cans when it's raining. :rant:

[Syklo]

And melee classes only come to pick up the trash once a week, and sometimes over an hour after they said they'd be there. AND don't even flip over the cans when it's raining. :rant:
At least we're first in line to collect the treasure loot.

[gigawuts]

At least we're first in line to collect the treasure loot.

There was a time when this was a point of contention.

It has long since passed, and the game is better for it.

[Will_Nonheim]

At least we're first in line to collect the treasure loot.

At least I've got chicken. (/leroyjenkins)

Kind of a moot point any way I look at it, but... Yeah! This has got to count for something! ...Right?

Right?

Hello?



Anyone?

[Seravi Edalborez]

At least you won't miss rares during PSE bursts.

...No seriously. Am I crazy or do drops despawn if too many are onscreen? I swear I've seen rares drop, thought "I'll grab it after burst is over", and it's not there.

Sucks for times when you play with no/low sound.

[MetalDude]

They do, but not until after an unusually long amount of items are on the ground. It's almost impossible for even a heavily extended burst to drop enough items on its own to start removing them. One big burst after another previous one though will probably start removing them.

[Aeris]

Thats why i check green boxes (grinders and synths) and lookout for red weapons when a burst is going on since the map can hold a limited number of items on the ground.

[Macman]

Just grab all the junk meseta drops as you fight and you'll be fine.

[Kirine]

I'm confused... Granted a Gu/Ra can't kill trash mobs as fast as force, but other classes? It's fine.

You forgot that a Gu/Ra has access to some launchers. I've seen Gu/Ra's hit 4-6k damage with cluster bullet just using the pyroshop exchange rocket launcher on trash mobs and their rodeo drive handling things pretty well, though elite trash mobs (such as crabs or garongos) are better taken care of with TMG.

Most trash mobs enemies die with 4-6k damage attack on them so it's not really ineffiicent if one cluster bullet wipes the whole field... and that's just with the exchange weapon, imagine if the Gunner had flame visit.