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View Full Version : Is Dexterity/Skill worth it?



Jim
Feb 6, 2013, 10:09 PM
I'm raising a Leo, and I have to have at least 16 Dex. Should leave him at 16/134 Dex/S.Atk, or should I invest more in Dex?

Does Dex do anything besides make the damage you do more consistent? And does anyone have a guide on how much it helps?

Rien
Feb 6, 2013, 10:11 PM
It helps you equip stuff like the Falz Elder unit set.

Vintasticvin
Feb 6, 2013, 10:13 PM
Perhaps you may wanna take a peek at these Jimmy "http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198250 and http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195677" I hope this information is valuable and of use to you and may the mag gods guide you well :D

Jim
Feb 6, 2013, 10:22 PM
Perhaps you may wanna take a peek at these Jimmy "http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198250 and http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195677" I hope this information is valuable and of use to you and may the mag gods guide you well :D

I don't see anything on there about what Dex/Skill actually does though. :-?

I'm not asking about how to raise a Mag, I'm asking if Dexterity is a good skill to have. Still, thanks for the reply. :)


It helps you equip stuff like the Falz Elder unit set.

Not worried too much about that. Thanks for the info though! :beer: I already didn't care too much about weapon reqs because I main Gunslash, but I hadn't considered unit reqs.

Anyone know how the benefits in combat are?

blace
Feb 6, 2013, 10:24 PM
It let's you deal a more consistent damage range and raises your minimum damage done by a small amount. It's not necessary to have, but is needed for certain weapons and units.

Jim
Feb 6, 2013, 10:29 PM
It let's you deal a more consistent damage range and raises your minimum damage done by a small amount. It's not necessary to have, but is needed for certain weapons and units.

Right, I mentioned that it increases your consistency. But I'm trying to maximize my damage output, so is it consistent enough to justify investing in it over S.Atk? What balance between the two stats puts out the most damage?

blace
Feb 6, 2013, 10:45 PM
As I've said, not really needed. The biggest difference I noticed when I take off my mag, I deal less consistent damage by around 20 points.

Rien
Feb 6, 2013, 10:53 PM
Right, I mentioned that it increases your consistency. But I'm trying to maximize my damage output, so is it consistent enough to justify investing in it over S.Atk? What balance between the two stats puts out the most damage?

S-attack : Ability/skill/dex/wutever
1 : 0

Really, the only reason to add it is to equip stuff (like certain gunslashes, though a lot of the high-end ones require S-attack or R-attack)

Jim
Feb 6, 2013, 11:05 PM
S-attack : Ability/skill/dex/wutever
1 : 0

Really, the only reason to add it is to equip stuff (like certain gunslashes, though a lot of the high-end ones require S-attack or R-attack)

Ok, that's more like what I was looking for. I knew S.Atk would raise my highs and that Dex would raise my lows, but wasn't sure which would give me a higher average.

So S.Atk it is. Still, it would be nice to have a damage calculator so I could actually have a thorough understanding of the choices I'm making.

Lumpen Thingy
Feb 6, 2013, 11:25 PM
dex is awful....The End

UnLucky
Feb 7, 2013, 01:52 AM
Dex is mitigated by the target's dex and used in some weird unknown formula and doesn't raise your damage point for point nearly as much as your main attack stat (which doesn't really raise your damage all that much either)

Don't get dex.

Zorafim
Feb 7, 2013, 03:08 AM
From what I can tell, mag levels don't matter unless you're trying to equip things. Which, you are. 16 levels of dex isn't enough to get a new mag, but I wouldn't go trying to make a mag with high dex either.

Meji
Feb 7, 2013, 04:02 AM
dex is awful....The End
Lies, all lies. Dex is wonderful. Being able to equip Lambda Aristin at LV10, as well as your Golden/Dark Wing Units is fairly nice. Never need to bother with changing units when changing class.
The fact that it also brings up the minimum damage you'll do is lovely. Gives you a more balanced strength, and soon you'll know exactly how many hits any enemy goes down with.

I've got tons of LV150 Mags so far. And the one I use the most is my 50 S-ATK / 100 DEX Mag. Damage total is better than with my 150 S-ATK Mag (100 DEX does a LOT more than 100 S-ATK. Not to maximum damage, but to overall DPS).

Jim
Feb 7, 2013, 05:49 AM
I just realized that there's an evolution check every 5 levels, so I have to keep Dex highest until I hit 100 to get Leo, don't I? Which means I have to put 51 into Dex, not 16.

Damn it...

Maronji
Feb 7, 2013, 06:00 AM
I just realized that there's an evolution check every 5 levels, so I have to keep Dex highest until I hit 100 to get Leo, don't I? Which means I have to put 51 into Dex, not 16.

Damn it...

You could actually get away with 48 at the absolute lowest if you must have Leo.

It's only three points, sure, but it's better than nothing.

Jim
Feb 7, 2013, 06:28 AM
You could actually get away with 48 at the absolute lowest if you must have Leo.

It's only three points, sure, but it's better than nothing.

Interesting. I thought Dex had to be higher than S.Atk when it hits 100. How would I accomplish that?

Soultrigger
Feb 7, 2013, 06:48 AM
Actually, the optimal SATK Leo would be:
121 SATK/29 DEX

http://file.pso2pso2.syoyu.net/pso2maguEnglish?a14d16;a4;a1d1;a3;a1d1;a3;a1d1;a3; a1d1;a3;a1d1;a3;a1d1;a3;a1d1;a3;a1d1;a3;a1d1;a3;a1 d1;a3;a1d1;a3;a1d1;a3;a1d1;a54;

Darki
Feb 7, 2013, 07:05 AM
You can have a Leo with much less Dex if you plan your feedings well. The mag chooses which one of the four "supertypes" only based on it's previous form, not on the stats. So if you have a Lyra it will evolve into a striking mag, if you have a Fornax it will evolve into any of the ranged max, and so on.

The thing is that as you said, the mag checks its levels every 5 levels. But you can actually level the mag up twice with one feed. For example imagine you have a mag at level 14. If you feed it for example monomates all the time (which would be slow but works as an example), both SATK and SDEF bars will increase at the exact same pace. If you reach to level them up at the same time, the mag will go from 14 to 16 without going through 15, so it will completely skip the stat check and will never change types.

So, first you need to have your mag as the desired type at level 30. If you want a Leo you need to start with an Antlia, so you raise its Dex at least to level 16 then striking stats for the remaining 14 levels. When it turns into an Antlia, you have to do this level-skip method every single level multiple of 5, till you get the mag to level 95.

Now you can do two things. You can raise SATK mainly and raise one Dex every 5 levels to skip the stat check, so you will end with a Leo at around 29 DEX and 71 SATK, or you can raise a third stat (for example SDEF) and forget about Dex. That way you'd have a Leo at level 100 with only 16 Dex and 84 levels split between SATK and SDEF.

Once your mag gets to level 95 it won't change to any other "supertype" so you don't need to worry about this level skip. Also, since Leo only requires the striking stats be higher than Dex, you can entirely forget about levelling Dex up from now on.

This method works for any mag. For example you can have a Carina with 16~29 tech stats, or a Caelum with 16~29 ranged stats. You can even do this after level 100 to keep a mag from switching types (but this requires you to stop levelling it at level 149 because 150 is a "stat check" level). You can even keep your mag at the first form till level 149 if you wanted to. xD

EDIT: Ninja'ed by Soultrigger, but I got the long explanation anyways. <_<

Maronji
Feb 7, 2013, 07:23 AM
Taking the above posts into account (because I didn't account for the trick mentioned above), let me correct myself:

You could actually get away with 48 DEX at the absolute lowest (without using the "skip every fifth level" feeding trick) if you must have Leo.
That said, I think trying to do that would fry my brain at some point and I'd screw something up somewhere down the road (like not thinking for a moment and feeding the wrong item and throwing the balance out of whack). I'd probably have to have a reminder tattooed to the back of my hand or something.

Also, to confirm something Darki said, whatever mag path you're on (Striking-type, Range-type, Technique-type, and Dexterity/Ability-type) becomes locked at Lv95. You can still upset the balance and evolve to a different mag in the same mag path, but you can't change mag paths after that point. The smallest you can make the split without using the trick Darki described is 48/47 (which = 95), and after that point, you can do whatever you want stat-wise.

EDIT: There's a nice JP mag simulator (http://pso2ss.6.ql.bz/mag/) that I've never seen posted around here (to my knowledge, anyway) if you wanted to do feeding simulations to (kinda) figure out how stuff works.

Zyrusticae
Feb 7, 2013, 09:42 AM
I, for one, have great appreciation for Dex and how much it influences the damage range. It can, for example, be the difference between a damage range of 2500-3000 or a damage range of 2800-2900 (yes, really).

Note that 50 attack only adds 10 damage to normal attacks times the power multiplier of your PAs (the absolute highest of which goes to about 10x or something to that effect) times your passive bonuses (JA advance and so on) whereas 50 dex can cut your damage range a LOT more. The actual amount is relative to the dex of your targets, however, and isn't as cut-and-dry, hence a lot of the confusion on the matter. There's also the factor of rare (7*+) weapons having a hidden dex bonus/smaller damage range that's difficult to quantify without access to the actual damage formula.

Both of my mains have a significant amount of dex in their mags, and the grand majority of their T-Atk/S-Atk come from skill trees (they both have over 700). I don't regret any it for a minute.

Coatl
Feb 7, 2013, 09:45 AM
Unless it is for equipping gear that requires Dex. No, it's not worth it.
I don't think it's wise at all to build your mag with damage in mind. Your mag is for helping to put gear on your back and that's it.
The damage bonus it provides, while useful, should be treated with less priority.

Dnd
Feb 7, 2013, 10:18 AM
Well, my mags 93 s-atk/57 dex, I have a total of 462 dex at the moment (Black wing set for +40 is very nice and often overlooked I feel).

With the gigas spinners, my damage is only fluctuating between 2-3% from min/max and even then, that's only vs lv50 mobs. I honestly think people saying dex is completely useless are wrong.

I'd rather be where im at damage output wise at the moment then, say, do another 1% max damage but also deal 5% less damage on a min swing and leave yet another thing to rng. (To reinforce this point, my brothers force has 418 dex and his damage variation is much greater then 3% when we're grouping together)

LinkKD
Feb 7, 2013, 01:32 PM
That is something I wonder myself too.

I got two HU/FI characters, one of them has a mag with 70 DEX / 65 S-atk / rest S-def (I think I overdid it on this one, I made it mainly because I wanted Crux.)

and the other has a 51 DEX / 80 S-atk / rest S-def one

they both have very steady damage...and I wonder if I could have less than 50 DEX on a mag w/o losing damage steadiness.

My logic when putting DEX into the mag was: "I have 50 points to put either on S-atk or DEX. My S-atk is 1000+ while my DEX is 300+. 50 DEX points is a much higher % of 300 DEX than 50 S-atk points is of 1000 S-atk. Since both stats will affected me in a positive way, I guess I should go for the one that looks like it'll make more of a difference, the one in which 50 points is a higher % of the total: DEX." (Plus...I really hate how Delphinus look, and his auto attack =w=)

Also the fact that I probably wont get DEX from anywhere else besides the Mag...while I can get s-atk from skill tree and affixes (well yeah, I can also get DEX from affixes, but its not base DEX and it wont help me equipping stuff).

And there's also the fact that DEX also lowers the enemies damage range against you...so it's both an offensive and defensive stat.

anyway...I'd be willing to give up some DEX for more S-atk if that'd make my damage raise w/o losing it's steadiness. But the lack of solid info on how DEX works make it hard to really say how it'll work...and getting another Mag is costy...to realize that the difference was minimal or even negative in the end would be very frustrating =w='.

Anw...most people say its useless, some say it's good...it's hard to reach a complete definite answer on that matter. But I guess in the end, 50 points on the Mag, on Atk or DEX wont really make that much of a difference, wherever it goes.

Jim
Feb 7, 2013, 05:46 PM
I really wish the community had some solid data on this, so I'm planning an experiment where I raise a few Mags with different ratios of S.Atk and Dex.

I should be able to start collecting data once I hit the Lv. 55 cap. (EDIT: My stupid face thought the Lv. 55 cap was coming on Wednesday, but it's not. I'll have time to do the experiment at Lv. 55) It'll be a couple of weeks from today before I actually have anything to show, but I WILL post my findings with tables, graphs, and observations.

WARNING: SCIENCE AHEAD

Phase 1 of the experiment will, tentatively, consist of these Mag configurations:

S.Atk/Dex
50/0
0/50
10/20
20/10
10/30
30/10
20/30
30/20
30/30

I'll be charting my data in increments. I still have to draw up a plan for how frequently I'm going to record data, and how I'm going to handle Mags whose ratios change. EG: The 10/20, 10/30, and 20/30 stats are all the same Mag, obviously. I'll have to do some math to see if I can actually record every ratio-sensitive datum from Level 1 to each of those ranges. If not, I'll either have to run more trials or reduce the number of ratios I can produce data for.

Since I'm not going to 150, it won't be a definitive guide, but we should get more than enough data to deduce how Atk and Dex stats affect combat. Yes, this will require 4 extra Mags. A small price to pay for...
http://i.qkme.me/3orfh6.jpg

Feel free to leave suggestions here.

UnLucky
Feb 7, 2013, 06:39 PM
WARNING: SCIENCE
Couldn't ya just use units+affixes for those numbers? Or use the 50/0 ones with various units for each "tier" as well as provide wider gaps for testing.

Saffran
Feb 7, 2013, 08:22 PM
From the wiki: http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?Comments%2F%E7%89%B9%E6%AE%8A%E8%83%BD%E 5%8A%9B%E8%BF%BD%E5%8A%A0
during some testing near christmas, the comparison was made.
(I'll just assume you don't read japanese)
tested on Newearl
Fo50/Te50 Mag T-Atk150
Enemy Udan (lv46)
Equipment is 3x sub units AddWall alpha (lowest Sdef)
let myself hit 200 times with different affixes. Min-Max-Average indicated.
no affix : 221 to 275 Av 250.28
3xBodyII (+60Sdef) 209 to 262 Av 238.22
3xBlowResistII 221 to 275 Av 249.04
3xArmII(+60Dex) 197 to 275 Av 240.71
3xAbilityII(+30Sdef+30Dex) 202 to 269 Av 239.30

As for suggestions... get some signo souls. Players shop might be easiest, not too sure. You could also "farm" the NPC shops for Sub Units Arm Epsilon if you're high enough level.

Jim
Feb 8, 2013, 03:44 AM
From the wiki: http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?Comments%2F%E7%89%B9%E6%AE%8A%E8%83%BD%E 5%8A%9B%E8%BF%BD%E5%8A%A0
during some testing near christmas, the comparison was made.
(I'll just assume you don't read japanese)
tested on Newearl
Fo50/Te50 Mag T-Atk150
Enemy Udan (lv46)
Equipment is 3x sub units AddWall alpha (lowest Sdef)
let myself hit 200 times with different affixes. Min-Max-Average indicated.
no affix : 221 to 275 Av 250.28
3xBodyII (+60Sdef) 209 to 262 Av 238.22
3xBlowResistII 221 to 275 Av 249.04
3xArmII(+60Dex) 197 to 275 Av 240.71
3xAbilityII(+30Sdef+30Dex) 202 to 269 Av 239.30

As for suggestions... get some signo souls. Players shop might be easiest, not too sure. You could also "farm" the NPC shops for Sub Units Arm Epsilon if you're high enough level.

That's actually an interesting look at how Dexterity affects defense, thank you.

I'm more interested in damage output though. My goal is to be able to produce graphs that demonstrate the curve in average outgoing DPS caused by S.Atk and Dexterity stats. Basically, it would be a graph something like the one pictured below with "Mag level" on the X axis, and "Average DPS" on the Y axis. For the 0/50 and 50/0 builds, I plan to capture damage stats at EVERY LEVEL. This is why using Mags instead of affixes will be so effective. The resulting graphs will be very finely tuned.
[SPOILER-BOX]http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/line_graph1.gif[/SPOILER-BOX]