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holmwood
Feb 7, 2013, 01:51 PM
New question:

Here's another question: When the petson uses a braolet to break a crystal, what about the party members?

Outcome 1:The crystal breaker benefits all the members with drop rate increase.
Outcome 2: The drop rates are determined individually. The other party members have to equip their own braolet during crystal breaking to benefit.
Outcome 3: only the crystal breaker benefits. Everyone else gets NAHTING.

If outcome 1 is true, a party of 4 can rotate using the rate drop booster item for optimal farming. :D


--------------
Past Question:
All right, Im just wondering whether or not the SW drop increase is supposed to take into effect when you kill the boss with the weapon, or when you destroy the crystal with it.


Edit:


Equipment: Space Tuna with meseta fever II. 10% meseta up.
Experiment:

1) Meseta weapon kills boss, regular weapon destroys crystal = 33,34,44,43 meseta
2) Regular weapon kills boss, meseta weapon destroys crystal = 44,45,45,42 meseta
*extra note= for the second trial, mesetas actually appeared as 40 + 4, and 41+4. No additional trials necessary.

Conclusion:
Destroy crystal for rare weapon attribute to proc.


^^;

MetalDude
Feb 7, 2013, 01:56 PM
As the boss dies, so watch for "Boss has a little bit of strength left!"

Z-0
Feb 7, 2013, 02:05 PM
When you destroy the crystal.

Because if you use a booster after the boss dies, the effects of the booster will apply after you break the crystal.

holmwood
Feb 7, 2013, 02:59 PM
When you destroy the crystal.

Because if you use a booster after the boss dies, the effects of the booster will apply after you break the crystal.

How can you know if the effects occur after you break crystal? Personal experience? ^^;

Z-0
Feb 7, 2013, 03:20 PM
Use a meseta booster. Boom, boosted meseta.

holmwood
Feb 7, 2013, 03:23 PM
Use a meseta booster. Boom, boosted meseta.

Genius. Thank you!

Eman2417
Feb 7, 2013, 03:30 PM
I'm going to have to agree that the drops are activated at the time of the boss' death not the crystal.
Like say for instance, you have rare drop rate up from a drink. When you kill the boss it cancels out the drink, not when you open the crystal. But it has to do with it being the end of the quest as well.. To me it just seems silly to have them cancel out if you can't get the boost from bosses.

holmwood
Feb 7, 2013, 03:45 PM
I'm going to have to agree that the drops are activated at the time of the boss' death not the crystal.
Like say for instance, you have rare drop rate up from a drink. When you kill the boss it cancels out the drink, not when you open the crystal. But it has to do with it being the end of the quest as well.. To me it just seems silly to have them cancel out if you can't get the boost from bosses.

True. Ill make sure with another way.

To make sure, Ill try using a meseta boosting weapon for two situations:
1. Kill boss with normal weapon, destroy crystal with meseta weapon.
(Crystal kill hypo)
2. Kill boss with meseta weapon, destroy crystal with normal weapon.
(Boss kill hypothesis)

Anyone see a problem with this logic?

There's another reason why I suspect the effct on boss drop. No point making the effects apply with only crystals because normal mobs drop rares too. Why exclude normal mobs?

Z-0
Feb 7, 2013, 03:49 PM
Applying on crystal break does not rule out applying on normal enemies too, not sure where you get that logic.

holmwood
Feb 7, 2013, 03:58 PM
Applying on crystal break does not rule out applying on normal enemies too, not sure where you get that logic.

Well I guess I was saying if normal mobs is obviously on kill, then bosses should be on kill as well. It actually doesn't make so much sense now that you mention it. The crystal could be like a separate entity from the boss and "killing" it is the same thing (which is what you said).

The rare rappiea could function the same way as crystals with additional grinders dropping when it is killed again, even after exp is given .

But gotta test it out yeh? :-D

Ill check it out when I get back home unless someone already does it by then.

MetalDude
Feb 7, 2013, 05:14 PM
Use a meseta booster. Boom, boosted meseta.

Oh.

Well, never mind me then.

UnLucky
Feb 7, 2013, 06:46 PM
Well I guess I was saying if normal mobs is obviously on kill, then bosses should be on kill as well. It actually doesn't make so much sense now that you mention it. The crystal could be like a separate entity from the boss and "killing" it is the same thing (which is what you said).

The rare rappiea could function the same way as crystals with additional grinders dropping when it is killed again, even after exp is given .

But gotta test it out yeh? :-D

Ill check it out when I get back home unless someone already does it by then.

normal enemies drop items when they die
bosses drop crystals when they die
crystals drop items when they die are broken

rappies die are defeated when they first fall over and drop items (plus count for COs). they can drop more items if they are hit again when they get up.

holmwood
Feb 7, 2013, 06:47 PM
Equipment: Space Tuna with meseta fever II. 10% meseta up.
Experiment:

1) Meseta weapon kills boss, regular weapon destroys crystal = 33,34,44,43 meseta
2) Regular weapon kills boss, meseta weapon destroys crystal = 44,45,45,42 meseta
*extra note= for the second trial, mesetas actually appeared as 40 + 4, and 41+4. No additional trials necessary.

Conclusion:
Destroy crystal for rare weapon attribute to proc.

Now, someone mentioned that the rare weapon buff cancels right after boss dies.
I think that buff was intended to be used for regular mobs and not boss drops?
^^;

UnLucky
Feb 7, 2013, 06:50 PM
drinks not affecting boss drops is just an unfortunate aftereffect of poor planning and timing

IndigoNovember
Feb 8, 2013, 12:56 AM
This situation might help, might not.

During a Fang Banther EQ, I took Franka's Fang Hide CO (1x drop from Fang Banshee and Fang Banther). I finished a run and only got 1 Fang Banshee Hide. Next run, beat both bosses, but before I broke the crystals remembered that I hadn't put away my Fang Banshee Hide. Put them away, broke the crystal, and got another Fang Banshee Hide. If I had not put away my Fang Banshee Hide I would not have gotten another one since that part the CO was completed.

Whether or not this case can be extended to normal/rare equipment drops, I don't know. Something to consider though.

Skyly HUmar
Feb 8, 2013, 02:16 AM
So rare drop boost from random drink doesnt help with drops from bosses?

Rien
Feb 8, 2013, 03:50 AM
So rare drop boost from random drink doesnt help with drops from bosses?

It doesn't help only if killing the boss ends the quest.

Like if you're facing the Snow Banshee/Banther, killing Banshee and breaking the crystal before you move on to Banther will give the boost.

Seraphus
Feb 8, 2013, 04:33 AM
So rare drop boost from random drink doesnt help with drops from bosses?

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201744

I think we've had this debate before and Noelle just gave me this link, which seems like enough evidence to me that it is determined at the boss kill. Oh and also the fact that kill count that increases number of drops on bosses doesn't work on crystals. In the case of meseta boosters, the amount of meseta is already determined but hasn't hit the field yet, which would explain the booster working on the meseta at crystal break.

Ce'Nedra
Feb 8, 2013, 05:04 AM
I believe Fortunate Omen doesnt increase your chance on finding rares at all. I have a theory where I believe that the chance to find rares stays the same but when you find a rare the Omen increases your chance getting said rare dropped untekked instead of tekked.

So if that is the case you kinda have to use the (Lamba) Vraolet the whole time/before boss crystal breaks to have its effect working. I know from own expierence ever since I use it I find only untekked rares.

Skyly HUmar
Feb 8, 2013, 07:10 AM
I believe Fortunate Omen doesnt increase your chance on finding rares at all. I have a theory where I believe that the chance to find rares stays the same but when you find a rare the Omen increases your chance getting said rare dropped untekked instead of tekked.

So if that is the case you kinda have to use the (Lamba) Vraolet the whole time/before boss crystal breaks to have its effect working. I know from own expierence ever since I use it I find only untekked rares.

Thats what it does. It boosts "unteked rate" not "rare drop rate".

Seraphus
Feb 8, 2013, 07:46 AM
Thats what it does. It boosts "unteked rate" not "rare drop rate".

There is no way to prove that is the case, unless we get input from the devs we can only speculate. The boosts actually say "special weapon drop rate up". Untekked items also don't appear in the quest records.

Ce'Nedra
Feb 8, 2013, 09:45 AM
There is no way to prove that is the case, unless we get input from the devs we can only speculate. The boosts actually say "special weapon drop rate up". Untekked items also don't appear in the quest records.

Special Weapons ARE untekked weapons. They have ?SPECIAL WEAPON 0* as name (I think, dunno what it exactly says as I can read Japanese, but its a guess based on PSO1) and not the name of the rare like when it drops tekked.

This fact alone confirms more then enough for me to make that theory.

Bellion
Feb 8, 2013, 10:55 AM
Special Weapons ARE untekked weapons. They have ?SPECIAL WEAPON 0* as name.

That is correct.

Seraphus
Feb 8, 2013, 02:31 PM
Special Weapons ARE untekked weapons. They have ?SPECIAL WEAPON 0* as name (I think, dunno what it exactly says as I can read Japanese, but its a guess based on PSO1) and not the name of the rare like when it drops tekked.

This fact alone confirms more then enough for me to make that theory.

I know this, my point was it still says "drop rate" and not just "rate" and also still no way to prove what it does. And when I said the untekked weapons don't appear in the quest records is reason enough to make me believe that it isn't just changing the rate of being tekked or not.

gigawuts
Feb 8, 2013, 02:32 PM
Yeah anyone who uses it says they notice almost zero weapons drop pre-tekked.

The general consensus is it raises the odds of any ordinarily dropped rare being an untekked special weapon.

Go get a braolet and try it yourself.

In before BUT RANDOM YOU CAN'T PROVE IT MAN WHAT IF IT'S LIKE THE .0000000000001% MAAAAAAAAN

Dnd
Feb 8, 2013, 02:43 PM
Yeah anyone who uses it says they notice almost zero weapons drop pre-tekked.

The general consensus is it raises the odds of any ordinarily dropped rare being an untekked special weapon.

Its hard to say if it actually increases rare drop rate, as by its very nature its completely random. However on this point I can confirm that EVERY rare that's dropped for me when I've had omen 3 equipped at the time of it dropping/crystal breaking has been a red box, not pre-tekked.

The two rares that I got without it equipped have been pre-tekked, so make of that what you will

Seraphus
Feb 8, 2013, 04:42 PM
In before BUT RANDOM YOU CAN'T PROVE IT MAN WHAT IF IT'S LIKE THE .0000000000001% MAAAAAAAAN

What, it's a fact. You can't prove a random effect on something that can happen without boosters and is already random. I'm not saying that's it's no way possible that it means the rate of whether the weapon is untekked, but I lean towards. You need confirmation from a dev like that drop table lottery process.

Just a note. I've gotten tons of tekked rares with lvl 3 potential from falz, maybe not more than untekked, but still a lot.

gigawuts
Feb 8, 2013, 04:49 PM
What, it's a fact. You can't prove a random effect on something that can happen without boosters and is already random. I'm not saying that's it's no way possible that it means the rate of whether the weapon is untekked, but I lean towards. You need confirmation from a dev like that drop table lottery process.

Just a note. I've gotten tons of tekked rares with lvl 3 potential from falz, maybe not more than untekked, but still a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

Of the probably 8 scattered people I've spoken to with these things who have all noticed an identical trend, my own first hand experience, and the JP community saying at large that this is how they also believe it works after playing with it, I'm inclined to agree that that is how it works.

Saying "BUT IT'S RANDOM YOU CAN'T PROVE IT BRAH" is self-defeating. If we approach the whole game like that instead of just this one thing, then why aren't you going around saying every single thing drops psycho wands and you just can't know maaaaaaaan :wacko:

Fuck, even dev confirmation isn't reliable. What if, like, somebody made a random typo that changed the way the game works, man? Or, like, what if he was out sick the day they changed their minds, and nobody remembered to tell him. You, like, can't know, man.

EvilMag
Feb 8, 2013, 04:53 PM
My uncle who works at Sega told me you get 5 untekked Pwands if you use Fortunate omen Lv3.

UnLucky
Feb 8, 2013, 05:11 PM
Could you imagine if tekking crap still cost millions like before?

I woulda been pissed if I had that potential.

Seraphus
Feb 8, 2013, 05:48 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

Of the probably 8 scattered people I've spoken to with these things who have all noticed an identical trend, my own first hand experience, and the JP community saying at large that this is how they also believe it works after playing with it, I'm inclined to agree that that is how it works.

Saying "BUT IT'S RANDOM YOU CAN'T PROVE IT BRAH" is self-defeating. If we approach the whole game like that instead of just this one thing, then why aren't you going around saying every single thing drops psycho wands and you just can't know maaaaaaaan :wacko:

Fuck, even dev confirmation isn't reliable. What if, like, somebody made a random typo that changed the way the game works, man? Or, like, what if he was out sick the day they changed their minds, and nobody remembered to tell him. You, like, can't know, man.

"It is important to remember that the LLN only applies (as the name indicates) when a large number of observations are considered."

You think 8 people is a large sample?

gigawuts
Feb 8, 2013, 05:53 PM
I think 9 people plus everyone who contributes to the JP wikis and all of their drops for the weeks they use these items adds up to a considerable number, yes.

And if you disagree, get an account on the JP wiki or get a level 3 latent braolet and do something about it :wacko:

Seraphus
Feb 8, 2013, 05:55 PM
Oh but can you give me a number for all these JPN people saying this? I'm not saying that you're wrong about your inclination. I'm saying it's wrong to think/say it's provable. Now the LLN can possibly apply to the P Wand example you gave because it's the entire PSO2 population ever since the p wand was in the data

gigawuts
Feb 8, 2013, 06:01 PM
I don't think anyone said it was provable and I think you're grasping at straws because for some bizarre reason you've chosen this of all things to argue about.

Everyone knows things are random, but I wish everyone knew random doesn't mean "anything can happen and you can never make assumptions about anything no matter what." It's the dumbest thing to hear in thread after thread, when someone insists they're right and falls back on that of all inane arguments - instead of just admitting they don't know either way.

If the result is this dramatic for this many people, we can say this is what it does with enough certainty to edit a wiki. And that's enough certainty for pretty much everyone, especially if they get the same results - in the end that's all that matters.

ArcaneTechs
Feb 8, 2013, 10:22 PM
This whole thread is going back and forth, I don't even know if it's after the boss dies or when its when you break the crystal anymore @_@ I'm just gonna go with the crystal like I have been doing all along, been getting good or excellent drops this way

MetalDude
Feb 8, 2013, 10:40 PM
I'm just going to play it safe and put it on before the boss dies.

holmwood
Feb 9, 2013, 01:43 PM
Well I just got my Praolet's weapon potential and got two unteched rare cubes yesterday. I only destroyed crystals. ^^;


Here's another question: When the petson uses a braolet to break a crystal, what about the party members?

Outcome 1:The crystal breaker benefits all the members with drop rate increase.
Outcome 2: The drop rates are determined individually. The other party members have to equip their own braolet during crystal breaking to benefit.
Outcome 3: only the crystal breaker benefits. Everyone else gets NAHTING.

If outcome 1 is true, a party of 4 can rotate using the rate drop booster item for optimal farming maybe? :D

gigawuts
Feb 9, 2013, 01:46 PM
Yeah I'm going to go out on a limb and say scenario 2.

holmwood
Feb 9, 2013, 02:00 PM
Yeah I'm going to go out on a limb and say scenario 2.

Okay, I guess I'll test this as well. :0

Player 1 will be equipped with space tuna and will break crystal. Player 2 will see if meseta boost applies.

If yes, outcome 1.

If no, then Player 2 will also equip a space tuna and wait for player 1 to break crystal.

If boost applies for player 2, outcome 2.

If boost doesnt apply for player 2.... outcome 3. (which will be a huge letdown... and a source of conflict for future parties. )

Seraphus
Feb 9, 2013, 04:47 PM
This whole thread is going back and forth, I don't even know if it's after the boss dies or when its when you break the crystal anymore @_@ I'm just gonna go with the crystal like I have been doing all along, been getting good or excellent drops this way


http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201744

I think we've had this debate before and Noelle just gave me this link, which seems like enough evidence to me that it is determined at the boss kill. Oh and also the fact that kill count that increases number of drops on bosses doesn't work on crystals. In the case of meseta boosters, the amount of meseta is already determined but hasn't hit the field yet, which would explain the booster working on the meseta at crystal break.

The back and forth was not about the original topic question, which I believe I was clear on answering. I won't explain why it is dumb to argue against what I was arguing for, dealing with but not about what Fortunate Omen actually does.

Drop boosters do not affect anyone but yourself.

Z-0
Feb 9, 2013, 05:38 PM
About your link:

I just read it. It is not prove that the effect happens upon boss kill at all. See, the crystal is essentially the time it rolls everything, and is counted as the "kill" for the drop sequence. Just because that article says "On enemy kill" doesn't mean it's on boss kill at all.

Honestly though, with my Vraolet level 3, all the rares I've seen from crystal breaks have been boxed (and I've only had it equipped on crystal break).

Seraphus
Feb 9, 2013, 09:22 PM
Actually read the link please. But whatever, I'm done here. You guys win.

holmwood
Feb 9, 2013, 10:53 PM
Actually read the link please. But whatever, I'm done here. You guys win.


I finally read the actual article from g-heaven.
This is pure speculation btw, but here's what I think:

"ボスエネミーは『メセタ』を必ず落とすため、
ザコのように『ドロップなし』というケースは無い "

So the thing is, unlike regular mobs, bosses HAVE to drop at least meseta as the quote stated. Mesetas are implemented after the lottery has "failed".
The lottery process is initiated after boss death as the article stated.
--------------
(Not from article)
The processing of the lottery could take place during the boss death cut scene which would explain why the crystals drop after a significant time after boss death.

TLDR: New theory: meseta boosting items apply after the lottery. So rare drop boost items MAYBE take into affect upon boss death.


PROBLEM: anecdotal evidence that states they get more unteched items than teched items ever since they broke crystals with weapon.

Rien
Feb 9, 2013, 10:58 PM
I don't know, maybe I should run straight at Falz and wreck the body without bothering with the arms.

With a Lambda Bullshit-ret

See if one of those pesky 11/12-stars ever drop