does anyone feel like this game is biased against hunters?

[Alisha]

i just feel like as a hunter i have to work so much harder for my damage compared with forces and rangers and get no reward for doing so because they can do just as much if not more damage from range without worrying about getting plastered by hunar. oh and the drink animation for mates is just icing on the cake.

[UnLucky]

Nope, you're the first person to ever consider melee classes as inferior to ranged ones.

Hunter totally makes up for the need for close range with it's slightly higher HP and S-Def stats. And you've got Step Attack to approach.

Totally.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

That's been the complaint for a while now I think. My way of justifying it to myself was just to think of them as the advanced class in this game, requiring a lot more skill and finesse to maximize than say FO which this time can just derp around and be an asset.

[Jim]

Yes. Yes, I do.

[Jakosifer]

No surprise that the most engaging classes to play are the ones that yield higher "difficulty".

[Syklo]

No surprise that the most engaging classes to play are the ones that yield higher "difficulty".
Pretty much this.

Although damage isn't the first thing that comes to my mind for classes in this game, so it sort of eluded me at first (before I entered this forum)

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Really though that seems to be the ebb and flow.

PSO wasn't that different at end game except there was no finesse to compensate with. RA had OP support weapons in spread needle and FS/SQ and then had good DPS weapons like GM and Yaz9k. Between that and FOs which once they had good disks were mass tech spam, a lot of HUs never got to do anything on trash mobs and were only useful on some bosses, but more often than not just got trampled.

In PSU FF and FM did crazy DPS with certain weapon types and FG/GM were good dps/support being able to pin down large mobs and rip through trash mobs with shotties. Meanwhile FT/MF were pretty lackluster by comparison. They certainly weren't bad but they didn't have the same output as the other classes and while not bad were just ok at everything they did and support was really the only reason to have them along.

Now Fo is massive AoE (like in PSO) and support is almost gone. They do solid damage in all areas and clean up trash mobs at absurd speeds. They have the easiest access to DoTs and SEs in general and have an invincible dash. Ra can once again pin enemies down with little effort and has the best debuff in WB bar none while gaining free movement while attacking at a distance in ARs. Gu/Ra is the fastest single target killer in the game using WB/CT and TMGs. HU has decent tools when close-in but nothing to help facilitate approach or mitigate damage that's even on par with what Fo and Ra have built-in. In the end they're on the same page they were in PSO, but at least they can avoid getting stepped on now and their damage isn't totally laughable....so....yay?

[Alisha]

my problem is that, that difficulty isnt rewarded in any way shape or form.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

The reward is looking awesome while doing what you're doing.

[Agitated_AT]

Range classes get a free pass in a team because the AI is too dumb and too slow. But to be fair, playing as ranger is also the most boring way i think. Ever since i went from force/techer to hunter ive been enjoying the game a little bit more. It tends to become engaging when yer not OPed. But the AI is still dumb in general

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I don't find it boring at all, but while melee classes are more engaging I just get tired of putting in so much work to get what I could get just spamming ER >_>. I'm dumbing it down a bit, but even though I have Fi and Hu at 50, I just can't justify the effort I have to put into playing them anymore. Sega is doing some balance changes in the coming weeks though, so we'll see what happens.

[Lumpen Thingy]

I think I'm the only one here that thinks hunter is actually just as good as the other classes but hey to each there own. I've never had a problem playing as it after I got a tree that wasn't shit.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Oh the class isn't hard to play as the game is now, the issue is the other classes do much more for less effort. And do it with more safely.

[Gen2000]

I never feel "inferior" or the game is biased towards me playing melee. Melee can be just as derp as Range users if you don't pigeon-hole yourself into being loyal to certain weapons and just take advantage of best PAs each weapon has to offer.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

The sheer fact that you have to change weapons so readily makes them less derp ready than other classes and in fact only lends itself to the opening statement which was that "you have to work harder to get similar performance." The step attack vs gunner's flip or Fo/Te's mirage step is just as much a lolwut. No denying that melee is perfectly viable, but the work : payoff ratio isn't as favorable.

[NoiseHERO]

Caster > Shooter > Melee

I also find that out of all the classes melee is the most gear reliant.

Also, pretty much every boss in this game is 90% anti melee.

If they move around a lot, melee is the one that has to chase them. If they have a lot of really big attacks that OHKO/stunlock you to death, melee is usually the only one that has to deal with these moves, every 5 seconds. and if there's a large group of monsters, melee is the one in the middle of it.

The difficulty when I'm playing on my techer compared to my fighter is like night and day. and my fighter has "LOL I'M AN ELITIST!!" gear.

Even if I can do 200k with a fully charged D-arch or AOE an entire mob with sonic aero/overend. It won't mean shit vs a FO that can spam zonde 8 times in a row from far away on top of a rock.

But the only thing that REALLY makes me bitter about it is the boss fights. But either way.. Yeah..


TL;DR there's a reason they're buffing the hunter classes and mentioned looking into MORE buffs and changes for the melee classes. And in general the game IS still easy. But I don't think it justifies the lack of balance. And a lot of things in general still feel, straight up cheap(probably to sell scapedolls) and close rangers have to put up with it a LOT.

[UnLucky]

Yeah the first time I fought the wolgy AKA black rockbear AKA lmaohunters I just laughed and laughed and laughed.

As a Force, all I had to do was hold S and cast the magic as it flails around like an idiot.

I watched my Ranger friend do the same thing.

"What is this, Backpedaling: The Game?"

[NoiseHERO]

Yeah the first time I fought the wolgy AKA black rockbear AKA lmaohunters I just laughed and laughed and laughed.

As a Force, all I had to do was hold S and cast the magic as it flails around like an idiot.

I watched my Ranger friend do the same thing.

"What is this, Backpedaling: The Game?"

Yeah like I said, I hate the unbalance the most when it comes to bosses...

But personally...

Wolga is the best example, the absolute most aggrivating miniboss to fight as a melee...

[SociableTyrannosaur]

lol yeah, he's not the worst offender imo, but just the fact that you can move and attack at the same time while totally safe from harm vs the attack dodge attack dodge attack missstep go flying situation that hu/fi deal with is just sad.

[Alisha]

Caster > Shooter > Melee

I also find that out of all the classes melee is the most gear reliant.

Also, pretty much every boss in this game is 90% anti melee.

If they move around a lot, melee is the one that has to chase them. If they have a lot of really big attacks that OHKO/stunlock you to death, melee is usually the only one that has to deal with these moves, every 5 seconds. and if there's a large group of monsters, melee is the one in the middle of it.

The difficulty when I'm playing on my techer compared to my fighter is like night and day. and my fighter has "LOL I'M AN ELITIST!!" gear.

Even if I can do 200k with a fully charged D-arch or AOE an entire mob with sonic aero/overend. It won't mean shit vs a FO that can spam zonde 8 times in a row from far away on top of a rock.

But the only thing that REALLY makes me bitter about it is the boss fights. But either way.. Yeah..


TL;DR there's a reason they're buffing the hunter classes and mentioned looking into MORE buffs and changes for the melee classes. And in general the game IS still easy. But I don't think it justifies the lack of balance. And a lot of things in general still feel, straight up cheap(probably to sell scapedolls) and close rangers have to put up with it a LOT.

the thing is from what i read i dont think they understand what the problem is reguarding hunter inbalance if all they are doing is speeding up swords and WL. some of it i dont think is fixable without creating new enemies that are hunter friendly. sorta like what infinity did in reverse.(infinity added a bunch of anti hunter bosses but hunter still owned the old bosses)maybe if flash guard 1 and 2 werent so deep in the right side. automate halfline might be useful if there was a trait to boost the effectiveness of mates.

[Gen2000]

9 times out of 10, Sonic Arrow x 3 is all you need for trash mobs. It's not like you're going through 5 different weapon changes every mob encounter.
You don't really need to use your brain a little until boss time comes but that goes for any class combo not named GU/RA. I mean if you want to kill them fast.

Defensive wise they have 2-3 different ways to just straight up neglect damage just as easily as Gunner's flip and while not as i-frame heavy as Mirage Escape, is a helluva more flexible.

The changes from results of the survey still has me scratching my head (should be more FI instead of HU stuff imo) but judging by the way most JPN melees roll in MPAs it's understandable where those complaints come from. These the same people who promoted Vol nerfs afterall.

[UnLucky]

I think what I'd do is allow full movement speed with a melee weapon out, and a slow walk during the PAs that now root you in place. Oh yeah and knockdown resistance. Then make Just Guard work in all directions.

"Oh Hunter sucks? Ok +5% damage boost on melee PAs" doesn't really change the situation.

[NoiseHERO]

the thing is from what i read i dont think they understand what the problem is reguarding hunter inbalance if all they are doing is speeding up swords and WL. some of it i dont think is fixable without creating new enemies that are hunter friendly. sorta like what infinity did in reverse.(infinity added a bunch of anti hunter bosses but hunter still owned the old bosses)maybe if flash guard 1 and 2 werent so deep in the right side. automate halfline might be useful if there was a trait to boost the effectiveness of mates.

Yeah personally I'd rather them create enemies that'd have range classes and casting classes suffer just as much. *_*

Also @gen2000 that's another problem.

melee has a lot of weapons but with both classes they only only have one really good weapon, and 1-2 PAs on said weapon that are the absolute most effective. Which is why it kind of rubs me the wrong way when they mostly keep buffing sword. when that's already the best melee weapon imo. (even if wabers have better DPS, Sword is more multi-purpose and lol sonic aero.) Why even give us 7 weapons when only 2-3 are worth using and STILL can't keep up with other classes without ultra gear and lots of effort. >_>

Personally I'm dying for them to make knuckles better... somewhere between the hitstop and the not-straight charge PAs feeling awkward.

[Jim]

I think I'm the only one here that thinks hunter is actually just as good as the other classes but hey to each there own. I've never had a problem playing as it after I got a tree that wasn't shit.


Oh the class isn't hard to play as the game is now, the issue is the other classes do much more for less effort. And do it with more safely.

I'm proud to be a Hunter. Even when people tell me I should switch because our damage output is so low, I think the class commands a little bit of respect because it IS challenging. Plus, it's fun as hell to be a Hunter and fight the enemy toe-to-toe. Been doing it for 10 years and not changing any time soon.

Still, I agree with SociableTyrannosaur. It's a little disconcerting when a Gunner/Ranger with a much lower level than mine can dwarf my DPS output from a lawn chair 30 feet away from the fight. I wish they would at least have to use Weak Bullet to outclass us damage-wise. :S

[NoiseHERO]

I'm proud to be a Hunter. Even when people tell me I should switch because our damage output is so low, I think the class commands a little bit of respect because it IS challenging. Plus, it's fun as hell to be a Hunter and fight the enemy toe-to-toe. Been doing it for 10 years and not changing any time soon.

Still, I agree with SociableTyrannosaur. It's a little disconcerting when a Gunner/Ranger with a much lower level than mine can dwarf my DPS output from a lawn chair 30 feet away from the fight. I wish they would at least have to use Weak Bullet to outclass us damage-wise. :S

You should tell them to shut up! >O

Melee can still keep up, they just have to put up with annoyingly unfair/unjustifiable things compared to the other classes and depend on their gear for said damage.

I think the limit to how efficient you want to be should end at whatever you have fun with. Just because you play a gimped class doesn't mean you can't try your best with it as long as you have fun and we reach that last boss box before returning to the campship all the same.

BUT!!!! that doesn't mean the class is fine the way it is either. >_>

[Gen2000]

Yeah I agree, ever since the later parts of PSU's life they seem to struggle to make a variety of melee PAs useful per weapon type. It's usually 1-2 stand out ones and the rest is for lulz.

And exactly, I don't know why they're buffing Swords even more. That's one of the melee weapons they got right. Meanwhile, Dagger users are still falling out of sky doing mediocre damage and there could be some Knuckle users who prefer not being close enough to give every single enemy a tic-tac for every PA not named Straight Charge (which is still beaten out by Partizan's Assault Buster in functionally since it's more closer to Bogga Zubba sad enough).

[Jim]

You should tell them to shut up! >O

Melee can still keep up, they just have to put up with annoyingly unfair/unjustifiable things compared to the other classes and depend on their gear for said damage.

I think the limit to how efficient you want to be should end at whatever you have fun with. Just because you play a gimped class doesn't mean you can't try your best with it as long as you have fun and we reach that last boss box before returning to the campship all the same.

BUT!!!! that doesn't mean the class is fine the way it is either. >_>

You hit it on the head, brother. I use Gunslash as my primary melee weapon because I like that it's reminiscent of PSO1's Saber. Efficiency isn't everything, but Hunter isn't where it needs to be nonetheless.

[Z-0]

Honestly, the melee classes output more or less the same, if not more, DPS than the ranged classes providing that you're using the general cookie cutter attacks (Sonic Arrow, Assault Buster and Deadly Archer), but the entire problem is pretty much that you have to get close. Although I'd say it's pretty obvious the ranged classes are better at bosses just because of Weak Bullet.

Nothing else is "wrong" with the melee classes, it's just that since everything in this game crumbles anyway, any ranged class can kill anything from afar.

[BIG OLAF]

Yea, I do believe that melee is severely hindered. It's not to say it's 'bad', but it has many more hurdles to jump over to be efficient than casters and rangers, who can nuke everything from a distance and/or completely wipe entire mobs on a whim.

[oratank]

i still love melee class more than range class
range class all r boring for me. except Gu with awesome animation.

[Soultrigger]

While Melee classes are fine as-is in terms of effectiveness, in general the evident lack of design in this game is most apparent with Melee. Custom Combos is moot because there's no incentive to chaining different PAs together on top of being able to switch palettes midcombo anyways. Tank builds and aggro magnets are useless with glass cannon being the ideal build for basically everything. Melees and even Gunners don't have enough efficient chasing tools (which is why everyone prefers to spam Elder Rebellion).

I think moreso than balance, I just feel the game in general isn't even thought out, like they just implemented stuff just for the sake of having it.

[NoiseHERO]

I think moreso than balance, I just feel the game in general isn't even thought out, like they just implemented stuff just for the sake of having it.

The WHOLE game feels like this...

But I think this is the problem with ALL online games...

maybe even strongest in PSO2 because PSO and PSU we're at least "complete" games when launched.

The way I see it(and I don't consider it a good thing at all.) WE'RE the testers for this game. >______>

[darthvader]

while i think it's true that hu/fi is the hardest char to play, but from all solo bosses videos that i watched hu/fi is the most entertaining to watch


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taHkWW2ON0g 2.50 mins ragne vh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBkSGrWu_gw 5.46 mins banther couple hard (this is from quite long time ago but i keep rewatching it cuz she's like dancing against the boss)

edit : a fo/te or gu/ra with their op dmg isnt that entertaining to watch cuz all they did is keep their safe distance :D

[Neith]

Always fun in an emergency mission when everything dies before you get to it.

If defense meant anything, HU would be better but it seems to barely make a difference at all. I play a RA/GU as my main but I've hoped for months that it'll get nerfed soon. There's no incentive to do anything but spam Elder Rebellion all day long :disapprove:

It's even worse when you fight Dark Falz Elder and get to phase 2. All you can do as a HU is pull out a Gunslash and shoot the top arms until Falz shocks, when you can then run in and watch the RA destroy the arm :lol:

Balance has never been one of Sega's strong points in this series.

[ShinMaruku]

The reward is looking awesome while doing what you're doing.

http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/2008/034/reviews/938686_20080204_embed001.jpg
Sometimes looking bad ass is all you need.

[Angry_Ryudo]

Then what is needed is ranged classes and force classes to be ohko classes by drastically lowering their hp keeping their strenght. Which is basically forcing hunters to be tanks.

[BWS-1]

I might not have much to say regarding the issue... but if this is turning out to be how Hunters are when this hits US (yeaaah, I'm waiting), I'll just go ''F*** IT, I'MA GO FULL-DEFENSES/TANK; SCREW DPS!''.

I wonder if that's not the intended purpose of the hunters after all... that damage dealing isn't something that they should look forward to do in a fight. But who am I to even dare speculate? The only PSO2-related playing I've done is through the Character Creator XD

[Bellion]

Add in tech and bullet resistant mobs/bosses. That may help a bit.

[Jungo Torii]

It's pretty much already been mentioned, but the problem with melee classes isn't what they can do at their best but what you have to do to get there.

Your skill tree needs to be optimal...in addition to having really great gear to match what the other classes can do for less effort.

[Stormwalker]

In a solo, or in a duo with a Ranger, HU and FI are incredibly fun to play. Neither class is inherently underpowered, and with the notable exceptions of certain bosses, both classes are very capable of taking on any challenge in the game.

Even those certain bosses *can* be overcome, they're just annoying as hell.

The real problem is that when you add Forces and Rangers and Gunners to the mix, the melee are qucikly overshadowed.

Put in different terms, the problem is not that HU and FI are underpowered, and it's really not even that FO and RA and GU are overpowered, either ( FO is certainly overpowered, but that's not the root problem.)

The real problem is with the content design in the game failing to provide any challenge for ranged classes. All of their attempts to create that challenge have proven to be far more detrimental to the melee than to ranged players.

FO's and RA's can go all-out glass cannon with their builds with impunity because they don't face any serious risk. This enables them to achieve such absurd levels of damage that the HU or FI is rendered irrelevant. It's not that HU's and FI's can't achieve pretty impressive levels of damage themselves, because they certainly can... they just don't get to use it.

I was in a Ruins MPA last night with my team, and the only times I got to attack anything were moments when the group was briefly split, when enemies spawned behind us, or during PSE bursts when enemies were spawning in our midst. Otherwise, the initial volley from the FO's and RA's in the party wiped out everything.

That's... not fun. In fact, it's exasperating. It makes the melee player feel worthless, and impotent.

The buffs that Sega is making to Hunter do not address this. They'll boost HU's damage output, which will be nice when soloing, but what good does additional damage do us when everything is dead before we can even get in range?

When you combine this with boss designs that fail to threaten ranged classes while punishing melee for daring to close in, the disadvantage of HU and FI is obvious.

That said, I don't want the game to be easier for HU and FI. I like that the classes require skill to play. I'd like to see every class require the same level of skill to play, and I'd like to see HU's and FI's have the opportunity to put that skill to use in group content rather than being rendered irrelevant by their ranged comrades.

The game needs bosses that can target and threaten ranged classes *without* charging halfway across the arena to attack them or employing massive PBAoE attacks that kill all the melee first. It needs enemies tough enough against techs that a well-geared FO can't oneshot entire spawns. It needs enemies who aren't trivialized by Weak Bullet and Chain Trigger.

These enemies don't have to be--shouldn't be--all the enemies. I don't want to take away the roles of FO and RA. They need to be able to have their fun. Let the FO's and RA's blow away two thirds of the spawn. Just give us some enemies that can absorb that bombardment and keep on fighting, so we can put our own considerable dps to use. Make those enemies dangerous to the ranged crowd, so we melee have the responsiblity to engage them and protect our more fragile comrades (I'm not talking about tanking, or building for defense here, just let us put our offensive builds to use killing something that would otherwise be a threat). There's a difficult balance to strike here, I realize, because you don't want to make the game brutally hard for a soloing FO or RA, but something needs to be done to give melee a reason to be.

Like I said before, FO's and RA's should have their role and their fun. The effort of building a powerful ranged character should be rewarded with powerful performance. I just want for those of us who choose to play melee to have our role and our fun, too.

[Skyly HUmar]

LOL have you seen the vid I made of myself soloing the snow cats at 50/50 without taking dammage? The fight itself only lasts about 2 minutes even though I cant even hit either of the kitties' faces without breaking 3 parts each.

True that fos and ras have it easy because all they have to do to win is lock on/tps and walk backwards while blasting $hit, but dammage is not an issue as a hunter, and I dont hold the highest dammage record in the forum on my RA, i do as a HU.

Granted I will admit, its stupid how with the vh boss units FOs and RAs have more S-def than the class that needs it the most, and I do wonder why they get so much s def on their units when they'll honestly never use it. But, look at it this way, it just means youre playing with the class that needs the most skill to be played (not to belittle fos and ras, i know it takes skill to blast things accurately and all that walking backwards).

And before any of you call wolga, I solod 3 of them with adds on ask Dextro, he came up with the idea.

[BWS-1]

The way I see it(and I don't consider it a good thing at all.) WE'RE the testers for this game. >______>

Funny, the moment ''ver2'' came out on Dreamcast, I felt I had been a guinea pig in ''ver1'' all along, but felt good to see they 'finally released the game' and was ok with that ''test subject'' status; then they shut down the Dreamcast's versions and released on Gamecube, I felt I had been testing - and tested - in ''ver2'' as well. But that time I felt a little cheated.

...

I could go on. BUT I WON'T. We all know how it (has not yet) ended! ¦D

[gigawuts]

Melee damage is about on par - sometimes even better (disregarding things like chain trigger) - than ranged and tech classes. Deadly archer is beastly, over end is beautiful on clumps of enemies, etc.

The problem lies in either the effort, risk:reward, or the lack of safety being at longer ranges offers. As melee you will be hit by ordinary attacks and they will add up to enough to kill you - and every single melee player knows that feel when 5 things attack at once resulting in a helpless chain of two seconds of flinch leading to death.

While a hunter is evading, blocking, and taking hits with literally no tell whatsoever, ranger is backflipping around from a hundred yards away and force is spamming from two miles away (Unless they want to get closer, which is their decision but they still have the security of range should they choose to use it - melee does not).

This leaves a few solutions:
1. Boost melee damage by a huge factor to increase the reward for the amount of risk - bad idea IMO
2. Boost survivability to bring the class up to the level of survivability offered by sheer range (with no ranged attacks this means you can't faceroll while invincible from a long distance, and when balanced right will make the class better and more intuitive)
3. Give the class better long ranged PA's - another bad idea

These are pretty much the only 3 solutions. 1 and 3 are inherently flawed - for 1 the class becomes fucking insane when it's able to hit non-threatening things, and for 3 there are already two different kinds of long ranged classes that are equally good at what they do (single target at range vs. many targets at range). That leaves 2, which is why it's my preference.

Increasing survivability could be done via any number of means. More base HP goes a good way. Faster mate animations are also good, more mates are good, all s-def units getting more defense across the board is good. Iron will being set to 100%, flinch immunity/protection for either all weapons or several weapons are good (via skill or core property of melee weapons). These are the core issues of the class - the close ranged class is the only one that is forced to be near so many enemies, but it's the only one that can't inflict sweeping large flinch/lift/etc. attacks (i.e. gigrants or elder rebellion). Some say those attacks are overpowered, but no. If only one class doesn't have such options, that class is inherently underpowered.

Ideally, my model of the classes would better tackle the role-oriented nature of these kinds of games. That would mean:
Ranged: Best single-target burst damage, at range
Techs: Best multiple-target burst damage, at range
Melee: Either great at both or best sustained damage, but at close range
At release, ranged and techs were less sustainable and spammable than they are now. Melee used to be the most sustainable by far, but after subclasses, gear additions, and just getting to know the game the field of balance has changed. Ranged and tech classes no longer suffer from the constant PP issues they did at release, and melee has not benefited nearly as much.

Hunter - Defensive melee, universal defensive subclass
Fighter - Offensive melee, universal offensive subclass
Ranger - Offensive ranged/Enemy debuff, enemy debuff subclass (weak bullet, jellen shot, etc. are all of this game's debuffs)
Gunner - Defensive ranged/personal PA buff, personal PA buff subclass (APPR, CT)
Force - Offensive/long range teching, offensive tech subclass (faster fire & cheaper lightning are good even when subbing if you just want to spam safoie and zondeel)
Techer - Defensive/close range/team buff teching, defensive/team buff tech subclass (larger aoe, better crowd control/close range techs with the masteries that do not require special abilities to be good at what they do, etc.).

Hunter's issue is the same as techer's: Split tree syndrome. It has half offensive, half defensive. This would be fine if the class didn't have its damage seemingly balanced around having large investments in offensive skills. To get better offense it directly costs you defensive abilities. Hunter and techer, due to their split class design, need either cheaper skills (most costing 5 SP, but with many more kinds to patch up the weaknesses of the class) or a total tree reorganization with important abilities being the cheapest and damage being near the bottom (edit: This was confusing, by "near the bottom" I mean "all lumped together after the class has acquired its core skillset" like how Guard Stance is required for sword gear, except the options should not be nearly as shitty as guard stance and they should be a permanent bonus with no penalty). Defensive skills should not cost you two SATK Ups to access. These are a blatant SP sink and need to go. They do not help even a little bit.

I'd want most defensive abilities to be put on the hunter tree. The ideal fix would be a ton of 1 SP skills beneath Iron Will. 1 SP for flinch immunity during flinch, 1 SP for no extra lift while already tumbling in the air, 1 SP for the last 25% of Iron Will, etc. Just like the gears. It's a lazy, patchwork solution, but it lets them save face and means they don't have to address the issue of free skilltree resets.

Many melee weapons also really need to siphon more PP for attacks. Attacking faster will partially address that, but it's knuckles and daggers I'm thinking of. They're not getting any attention at all.

[Skyly HUmar]

Thats one hell of a brick you posted giga, and I mostly agree, but I disagree with the split tree part. Some people prefer glass, some people prefer tanks, and being able to play in more than one way is always a plus.

But I do get that the s attack up is kinda redundant to have if youre going for the tanky skills.

[gigawuts]

Oh I agree, glass can be lots of fun. It's how I prefer to play, but melee is the only damage type that is directly penalized for it without the kinds of rewards the other classes see. But then there's also the issue that a melee glass cannon class already exists - fighter. It's designed for glass cannoning.

Also, these changes would really benefit from my other top want from this game: Removal of the all-class weapon system and full access to every weapon a subclass uses.

Instead, classes would be balanced by base stats. A hunter would have considerably larger base HP and def, and fighter would have better ATK across the board. Yes really. If one is for defense and one is for offense, make it more clear. If you wanted to play a glass cannon hunter, the allclass weapon system would be removed and you'd get to take your ordinary sword and go FI/HU.

edit: Also, the split tree issue is that the ranged classes don't have to choose skills to be effective while safe. There is no skill that says "you can now attack from safe distances." You just back up and there you go. This is an inherent flaw, and lets them dig in to solid offense builds while retaining a safe option. Melee plainly hasn't got this, so it needs to get more bang for its SP buck.

[Skyly HUmar]

Oh I agree, glass can be lots of fun. It's how I prefer to play, but melee is the only damage type that is directly penalized for it without the kinds of rewards the other classes see. But then there's also the issue that a melee glass cannon class already exists - fighter. It's designed for glass cannoning.

Also, these changes would really benefit from my other top want from this game: Removal of the all-class weapon system and full access to every weapon a subclass uses.

Instead, classes would be balanced by base stats. A hunter would have considerably larger base HP and def, and fighter would have better ATK across the board. Yes really. If one is for defense and one is for offense, make it more clear. If you wanted to play a glass cannon hunter, the allclass weapon system would be removed and you'd get to take your ordinary sword and go FI/HU.

edit: Also, the split tree issue is that the ranged classes don't have to choose skills to be effective while safe. There is no skill that says "you can now attack from safe distances." You just back up and there you go. This is an inherent flaw, and lets them dig in to solid offense builds while retaining a safe option. Melee plainly hasn't got this, so it needs to get more bang for its SP buck.

Oh... You just reminded my how annoyed I was that sega wont allow me to use my Mehkernea (yes i butchered it's name, lets just call it the banther DS) As a hunter.

And that honestly would be better. And i see what you mean, with a ranger : get all of the offensive skills that unlock each other and are right in each other's way. FO: max out tech charge advance, pp bolt save, and tech JA if you want and find one of those elder rods that are so hard to find and youre set!

[darthvader]

they should add something like deadly approach with longer range on sword/ds

and they really should nerf the range of technics. i saw some forces did rafoie with longer range than launcher's

and as for df main body battle, hu/fi being useless is not true. i would stay infront myself before spamming deadly archer on his downed arms and i dare to say that my spammed darcher have higher damage output than elder rebellions because how fast you can spam it. (newman male fi/hu here)

[gigawuts]

Oh... You just reminded my how annoyed I was that sega wont allow me to use my Mehkernea (yes i butchered it's name, lets just call it the banther DS) As a hunter.

And that honestly would be better. And i see what you mean, with a ranger : get all of the offensive skills that unlock each other and are right in each other's way. FO: max out tech charge advance, pp bolt save, and tech JA if you want and find one of those elder rods that are so hard to find and youre set!

That's right. For an example, compare the defensive options on Hunter and Gunner here: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html

Automate Deadline, Gunner's best defensive skill, is directly below the best offensive skill gunner has.

But for hunter? Automate Halfline requires a 5 SP sink and is on a separate branch or even tree from the other good defensive skills hunter has and might need because it can't flip-cancel literally every single attack like gunner can. Flip does not cost SP to have or use. It does not cost SP to make good or combo. It does not require you to wait until an attack is done. Almost all mechgun PA's have super armor or hyper armor to boot, making them immune to flinch, lift, and grab. Mechguns do not require charging for the best offensive PA's and do not require gear to be full to attack readily or quickly, just to increase damage.

Like it or not, those comparisons are valid. That's the defensive ranged weapon compared to the defensive melee weapon.

Sure, many will say that true class balance will never exist. But the nature of an online game with content updates is to try to balance the classes. As it is, the class that actually needs defense is the absolute worst at it.

[Kilich]

Yeah, I think Quartz is the only enemy in the game that is equally threatening to all classes, except for anti-melee rain.
And then they went and made Wolga and Zesh, the jet turtle, that are laughable for ranged classes. And then they make Chrome, which seems to be made in the same vein.
If at least enemies could prioritize, for example, Sparguns shooting at ranged classes, while spardans fight melee. Or resistances were introduced for ranged\techs to make taking a sword worth it.

[Skyly HUmar]

@darth: like i said, we have no issue with dammage, my current hold does 20k a tick with wb 7k without it, and unless dex is spamming zonde on the arms and breaking them before i can get half of my PA's dammage in, i usually have full agro on falz no matter whos party im in (with my full set of lucky raise units btw).

@ giga: seriously, is a set of units with nice s def and a good set bonus that isnt fen rare so much to ask for?

[ShinMaruku]

I think hunters and melee need to have skills that directly stun and hold in place bosses. If there was such a parry and stun skill where they have the place to unload into a stunned /interrupted boss and enemy.

[Skyly HUmar]

Oh and just for shiggles, i can repost my kitty solo vid lol.

[Kilich]

Then bosses would become even more of a joke. Not my cup of tea. I'd take a more technical Hunter though, with custom combo actually doing anything, projectile parry and selectable JG effects, instead of simple damage reflect.

[gigawuts]

I actually prefer melee for falz, because of deadly archer's god tier single-target damage and it being one of the few fights where you see everything you need to see. No adds to combo you, no surprise attacks with zero tell. It's probably the only actually fair yet also remotely challenging fight for melee. (It's not really that challenging, but it will still kill you quickly if you're not paying attention)

[Jakosifer]

Then what is needed is ranged classes and force classes to be ohko classes by drastically lowering their hp keeping their strenght. Which is basically forcing hunters to be tanks.

The problem with that comes with Force having the most absurd dodge in the game. Seriously, you have FO mains who are so used to a million I-frames that when they attempt an easy boss as a melee class they suddenly need all the help in the world. Gunners S.Dodge is also pretty ridiculous. It'd pretty much only affect Ranger. Also the whole properly played Hunter/Fighter having aggro on a boss more often than not (so melee damage is not the problem) thing, making it even more lax for ranged types. In a party/MPA none of those classes really have to worry about anything unless they're ZRA Gunners (LOLGUNNER in MPA period though), Suicide Spammers (Zondeel Forces), or Safoie Forces (lolmiragedash).

I don't mind melee myself, I'd rather not snore through every fight, hell, it's the reason I have four melee characters.

[Skyly HUmar]

The problem with that comes with Force having the most absurd dodge in the game. Seriously, you have FO mains who are so used to a million I-frames that when they attempt an easy boss as a melee class they suddenly need all the help in the world. Gunners S.Dodge is also pretty ridiculous. It'd pretty much only affect Ranger. Also the whole properly played Hunter/Fighter having aggro on a boss more often than not (so melee damage is not the problem) thing, making it even more lax for ranged types. In a party/MPA none of those classes really have to worry about anything unless they're ZRA Gunners (LOLGUNNER in MPA period though), Suicide Spammers (Zondeel Forces), or Safoie Forces (lolmiragedash).

I don't mind melee myself, I'd rather not snore through every fight, hell, it's the reason I have four melee characters.

LOL funny you mention that, in my team I have a few "challenges" that i offer anyone that uses melee and those starting out as melee. From what Ive seen, people who main it have no trouble with the rookie challenges, people who ont are actually not much better than someone who just started playing yesterday.

[Zenobia]

My HU/FI Yuri does not have problems with dis game not to brag but i hardly get hit as a HU/FI.

Just keep training dude you will get up there don't be discouraged keep your honor as a HU.

[Stormwalker]

LOL have you seen the vid I made of myself soloing the snow cats at 50/50 without taking dammage? The fight itself only lasts about 2 minutes even though I cant even hit either of the kitties' faces without breaking 3 parts each.


Obviously HU doesn't need more damage, which is why I'm baffled that more damage is what Sega is giving us. The HU buffs don't address the issue at hand at all.

As long as ranged attackers can obliterate entire spawns in a single volley, HU will never have a role in MPA. As long as bosses cannot threaten ranged attackers, HU will always be at a disadvantage fighting them.

Right now, FO and RA (FO especially) have high reward and minimal risk. This is the core of the problem, and it cannot remain this way if there is to be balance; if you make everyone high reward and minimal risk, the game falls apart as nobody is challenged.

Ultimately, though, I don't think the problem is as much with the class design as with the enemy design. Simply put, neither trash mobs nor bosses have the tools to challenge ranged attackers. Until this is corrected, melee will always be relegated to soloing to find enjoyment in the game.

[gigawuts]

Indeed, enemy design is a major factor as well. Spargun projectiles are the best example of this. They prioritize the nearest (or most damaging) target, and fire a slow projectile. More range = more time to see it and evade it. But it's the stun grenades that are the worst offender. They are not AT ALL a threat to long range classes, only close range. If you're stunned by one, chances are VERY high you'll be hit by another before you can shake out of the stun. If that happens you've just been hit with 2-3 grenades and are standing around with reduced health BEGGING to be finished off. God help you if you're battling a mizer when this happens.

Mizer is also one of the worst offenders with irritating movesets. Every single one of its slashes has a different attack vs. animation discrepancy. It's VERY irritating. Some attacks land before swipes, others closely timed with swipes. Some have long delays, other similar moves have no delay at all. Some slides flinch you for 50 damage and the sweeping slash hits you before you even get out of that flinch. It is irritating as fuck, and ranged classes can just s+m2 all day about it without being hit or dealing with any of this shit even once, while still dealing about the same damage, if not more because they barely need to evade or heal during the fight.

[Kilich]

Forgot to add that AQ seems to be quantity = difficulty, and maps filled with enemies will make it harder, once again, only for melee.

[gigawuts]

It might, but that depends on the enemies. If we're talking 2 wolgas + gulfs and fish, fuck off. If it's 2 mizers + sparguns and gilnas, oh god. But if it's more like rockbears and oodans things will be pretty alright.

But if it's pretty mixed adds it's nothing other spin, other cyclone, and over end couldn't easily destroy.

[Darki]

I vote for accessing subclass weapons without needing class-free ones. It really fucks around the concept of playing a hybrid. I love my FO/HU, and it really irks me that my only two real options on using a rod as a HU/FO is a pico hammer or an impossibly rare Umbra stick.

At least they should make a series of regular class-free weapons, normal ones from 1* to 9*, no stupid gag weapons.

[Jim]

I know this thread has mostly been about damage and survivability of Hunters compared to other classes, but does anyone feel like Hunters got hosed a little with how our weapons are sorted?

They took the saber, one of our most iconic weapons (and my personal favorite), nerfed the damage output, tackily taped out trusty handgun to it, and stripped it of any kind of block. Then, they took away doubles, knuckles, and daggers; giving them to the new "Fighter" class. So if you've gotten attached to the title of "HUmar" or "HUcast" through the years, you're gonna have to choose between your title and your weapons.

I think the reason it bothers me so much is that it just seems like they were careless. (kind of noticing a pattern here) I know new players won't care, and I totally get that. But is anyone else bothered by this stuff as much as me?

[Blackheart521]

I know this thread has mostly been about damage and survivability of Hunters compared to other classes, but does anyone feel like Hunters got hosed a little with how our weapons are sorted?

They took the saber, one of our most iconic weapons (and my personal favorite), nerfed the damage output, tackily taped out trusty handgun to it, and stripped it of any kind of block. Then, they took away doubles, knuckles, and daggers; giving them to the new "Fighter" class. So if you've gotten attached to the title of "HUmar" or "HUcast" through the years, you're gonna have to choose between your title and your weapons.

I think the reason it bothers me so much is that it just seems like they were careless. (kind of noticing a pattern here) I know new players won't care, and I totally get that. But is anyone else bothered by this stuff as much as me?

Eh, I don't really care that Daggers, DS, and Knuckles are in Fighter as I don't mind the new classes, Being a melee character is what I'm about, not being a "Hunter" though I do miss plain sabers, I'd be satisfied though if they simply made twin sabers as a weapon type option. ^^;

[Jakosifer]

I'm really only bothered we don't have Twin Sabers and Slicers yet.

/animu: THIS IS UNFORGIVABLE!

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Sabers were never that good for damage compared to some of the other weapons out there. And if you really wanna use GS and DS just roll Fi/Hu. you lose almost nothing.

[gigawuts]

I'm really only bothered we don't have Twin Sabers and Slicers yet.

/animu: THIS IS UNFORGIVABLE!

My ideal next melee class:
Twin Sabers - Medium range, sweeping attacks (Just Guard special)
Single Claw - Close range, very mobile (think mechguns) lots of swipes & moves that can grab but still act out the whole attack without a grab
Shield & Saber - Defensive, Just Guard, some models are high damage with zero defense and no visible shield

Then Slicer as a new allclass weapon - gunslash based around swipes and a blade you can flick away, lots of PA's based around hitting several things at range

My dream update. Also, sub-subclass. You can us all 3 melee classes at once if you fucking want, I don't even care.

[The Walrus]

I'd rather have a system that creates a third class based on what the main and sub are. They don't have to be all unique or anything like HU/TE or HU/FO could make the same third class but yeah.

[gigawuts]

Or new weapons for existing classes. I really would MUCH prefer seeing our current classes refined and given things to accentuate what they've become in the eyes of the players, as opposed to what Sega intended.

Because only occasionally is what's intended the same thing as what the players make of it.

[Jim]

While Melee classes are fine as-is in terms of effectiveness, in general the evident lack of design in this game is most apparent with Melee. Custom Combos is moot because there's no incentive to chaining different PAs together on top of being able to switch palettes midcombo anyways. Tank builds and aggro magnets are useless with glass cannon being the ideal build for basically everything. Melees and even Gunners don't have enough efficient chasing tools (which is why everyone prefers to spam Elder Rebellion).

I think moreso than balance, I just feel the game in general isn't even thought out, like they just implemented stuff just for the sake of having it.


Eh, I don't really care that Daggers, DS, and Knuckles are in Fighter as I don't mind the new classes, Being a melee character is what I'm about, not being a "Hunter" though I do miss plain sabers, I'd be satisfied though if they simply made twin sabers as a weapon type option. ^^;

Twins would be a cool addition as well! And I do realize that being a FImar instead of a HUmar is a non-issue for almost everyone besides me. It IS just a word, but it's a word I've been with for 10 years. Even the opening scene for PSO on Gamecube made a big deal about each of the classes and how your class defines/expresses you. I guess my inner child is still a little starry-eyed and brainwashed by that video.

Not to say I'd wreck my build to keep my title. I've been tinkering with Fighter and I haven't really decided which I'm going to go with yet. I DO main Gunslash after all, so doubles and daggers aren't a requirement for me.

I'm totally game to try new things, but I like some consistency in my classic franchises. Hell, when I found out that Pokemon Fire Red would remember what kind of ball you caught your Pokemon in, I caught every one of them in standard Pokeballs. (Yes, even Mewtwo)

Does that make me batshit crazy? Maybe so.

[Zyrusticae]

Yeah sorry, I just don't agree.

It's true that nobody will ever match gunner/rangers for their ER super-spam for killing bosses, and that Forces are literally no-effort-screen-clearing badasses, but hunters can be a force to be reckoned with in their own right.

They have the single best defensive options out of every class (Just Guard and Hunter Step are both extremely useful for maintaining positioning and negating incoming damage, versus Ranger Roll which has almost no invincibility frames and Mirage Step which has a LONG recovery animation - don't know about gunners as I've never played one, though they're probably the easiest by a decent margin), have a PA for every situation, have the best weapon variety out of every class, and just look fuckin' cool while they're doing their thing.

The problem is that, indeed, a lot of bosses are just incredibly unfriendly to melee classes in general, but that's an issue with the boss design, not the classes themselves (unless you want to give every hunter/fighter weapon some kind of gap closer? Might not be a bad idea...). Also, regular MPA mobs just dying in droves is a result of their lack of scaling HP/defenses. Even as a Force I sometimes find myself without anything to do because everything dies too fast. That's a general issue that needs to be resolved with buffs to monster spawns across the board, not class balance changes.

And it can be pretty mindless as a hunter at times, too. As a partisan user I just spam Slide End all day and clear out crowds of enemies AND do massive damage to boss weak points at the same time. I think the AoE is actually larger than most techniques, to boot. Funny stuff, that.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

We need Twin Gunslashes >_>

[Jim]

The problem is that, indeed, a lot of bosses are just incredibly unfriendly to melee classes in general, but that's an issue with the boss design, not the classes themselves (unless you want to give every hunter/fighter weapon some kind of gap closer? Might not be a bad idea...)

Won't argue there. I definitely feel like there are times I spend more time chasing down bosses than actually attacking them.

[Sizustar]

And the AI NPC isn't exactly that easy for Hunter...
*Watch Hunter NPC dies again*
It has gotten better than earlier, but FO, RA NPC are still more useful...

[Akaimizu]

Well, I think that goes by default when it comes to NPCs. They tend to be better the more they're out of the way from close ranged attacks. To a degree, this plagues friendly AI in a number of other games as well. The moment their AI tells them to close the distance, uh oh.

[Zyrusticae]

The funny thing is, they could give hunter/fighter NPCs perfect reflexes and the ability to step out of the way of every attack in the game if they wanted to.

In fact, they should do that. It'd make for great recording...

[MetalDude]

Why NPCs don't use evades to begin with is beyond me.

[Blackheart521]

The funny thing is, they could give hunter/fighter NPCs perfect reflexes and the ability to step out of the way of every attack in the game if they wanted to.

In fact, they should do that. It'd make for great recording...

They'd be like the ninja cat in the Metal Gear Rising demo haha ^^;

[Akaimizu]

They'd be like the ninja cat in the Metal Gear Rising demo haha ^^;

I thought the very exact thing. Would make for a great movie, but it would be broken AI, though. I guess it would've been the greater of two evils.

[Skyly HUmar]

They'd be like the ninja cat in the Metal Gear Rising demo haha ^^;

I swear i tried to kill that thing for hours...

[gigawuts]

It bewilders me that this thread is in essentially complete agreement. Even the people who say they disagree, when they go into detail about their thoughts on the subject, make statements in agreement with most of what's been said.

So yeah, melee needs some attention.

[MetalDude]

I think damage-wise they're fine. They are a bit more gear dependent simply because they have to get in to deal their damage, but I think they keep up perfectly fine on bulky targets. It's a combination of problems between very little anti-range enemies (Satellite Lizards anyone?) and anti-technic enemies (Seabed in PSO) and how much more control FO exerts on the field with Rafoie and talis-utlized area technics (Zondeel, Gifoie). RA's headshot mechanic keeps them from being really underwhelming but launchers end up doing a huge amount of damage (8k Rodeo Drive looooool). When it comes to taking hits, this is definitely a big problem in field areas just because it's impossible to react to everything (fucking fish and Cyclonedas), but I far prefer HU and FI for Banther. I've gotten so used to the fight that I have no issue timing my Knuckle dodges.

[Akaimizu]

Sort of. For me, I haven't played hunter, nor for long enough, so I have no idea whether to agree or disagree. I agree on the NPCs, though.

I do think Phantasy Star has had a number of issues with risk vs. reward when it comes to general distance-based mechanics for a while. Even in PSU, it was an issue even if Hunters were the only class by itself. In general if you got to be inside, you better reward them with better damage and/or better multi-hit capabilities, and definitely make it so their extra defense isn't nullified by things that easily can suck just as much for all classes when one can't dodge so well due to distance. Tis the only way to make them *want* to take the riskier venture, if only there's a payoff. (Lest it becomes the good ol' Slicer vs. Swords thing again. Where Sonic Team made the payoff difference as if it were Bizarro world Dungeon Hack mechanics)

Now, I don't know what the level of issue would be with this game. Seems it isn't that bad given so many people still play Hunter classes in the game. Usually, a sure sign of balance problems is that people stop playing the class and min/max to other classes. Traditionally, ST loves their hunters. So if there's anything behind on them, be sure it will be answered.

[Dnd]

Im going to go out on a limb here and say 'no'.

Now before I explain why, it's only fair to point out that I've played both melee classes in pso2 for ~90% of 1,260 hours. I got two lv160+ hunters on pso1&2 and typically 'main' a melee based class in other mmos, so I play alot of melee, basically

1) Hunters/fighters damage output is insanely high, but its not spiky at all compared to say, gunner/rangers huge spikes with chains/ER. They provide consistently high damage when they are in range. On falz, for example im consistently top on aggro, with meteors, lasers and arms all arming for me during the fight.

2) Both melee classes have PA's that are adaptable for every situation, over-end for pure damage in a wide arc. Deadly archer for huge single target dps with double sabers, heavenly fall for a quick damage dealer in a small AoE with advantages of avoiding some attacks completely if timed right. I could list tons more but this post would be a really big wall of text.

3) People are complaining that most bosses are melee unfriendly, due to design or other reasons. Well, suck it up as its the same in MANY games and I LOVE playing a melee damage dealer for this reason. Hunters have tons of guards/defensive ability's to work around this, fighters are alot less defensive in core ability's but their weapons have guards built in (knuckle dodging, daggers weapon ability + autoguards on every attack frame, acro effect for double sabers). You could also just go with all-class hunter weapons and have fighter main to have even more guarding options.

4) Playing melee classes in an MPA is a little disheartening, but when 12 mobs spawn for 12 people, and your in a ranged heavy group you cant land a single hit but then I put that down to the games bad design (I just equip my omen3/lucky rise gunslash and leech in these situations :P)

Playing melee is a challenge, it does require a level of skill that ranged classes lack imo (I saw my brother, a force attacking the zesh in very hard and it was the most boring boss kill I must of seen. Just stood around casting grants till it died, with no risk whatsoever).

Playing a glass cannon fighter in the den is one of the best experiences I've had in a game in months - High-risk in a quite pressured area, but with high-return being huge dps to burn things down quickly so you have time to do everything. You go to the den without melee classes and then just take a look at how much longer things take~

[gigawuts]

Im going to go out on a limb here and say 'no'.

Now before I explain why, it's only fair to point out that I've played both melee classes in pso2 for ~90% of 1,260 hours. I got two lv160+ hunters on pso1&2 and typically 'main' a melee based class in other mmos, so I play alot of melee, basically

1) Hunters/fighters damage output is insanely high, but its not spiky at all compared to say, gunner/rangers huge spikes with chains/ER. They provide consistently high damage when they are in range. On falz, for example im consistently top on aggro, with meteors, lasers and arms all arming for me during the fight.

2) Both melee classes have PA's that are adaptable for every situation, over-end for pure damage in a wide arc. Deadly archer for huge single target dps with double sabers, heavenly fall for a quick damage dealer in a small AoE with advantages of avoiding some attacks completely if timed right. I could list tons more but this post would be a really big wall of text.

3) People are complaining that most bosses are melee unfriendly, due to design or other reasons. Well, suck it up as its the same in MANY games and I LOVE playing a melee damage dealer for this reason. Hunters have tons of guards/defensive ability's to work around this, fighters are alot less defensive in core ability's but their weapons have guards built in (knuckle dodging, daggers weapon ability + autoguards on every attack frame, acro effect for double sabers). You could also just go with all-class hunter weapons and have fighter main to have even more guarding options.

4) Playing melee classes in an MPA is a little disheartening, but when 12 mobs spawn for 12 people, and your in a ranged heavy group you cant land a single hit but then I put that down to the games bad design (I just equip my omen3/lucky rise gunslash and leech in these situations :P)

Playing melee is a challenge, it does require a level of skill that ranged classes lack imo (I saw my brother, a force attacking the zesh in very hard and it was the most boring boss kill I must of seen. Just stood around casting grants till it died, with no risk whatsoever).

Playing a glass cannon fighter in the den is one of the best experiences I've had in a game in months - High-risk in a quite pressured area, but with high-return being huge dps to burn things down quickly so you have time to do everything. You go to the den without melee classes and then just take a look at how much longer things take~

You use a quartz calibur in VH and don't have anything non-melee above level 30.

So yeah.

Don't say things are fine in comparison to other things when you only use one thing.

(edit: to be specific, that very lack of risk you call "boring" is a matter of taste, and the fact is 100% there that these "boring" classes are far more survivable for similar performance. Your personal taste does not impose itself over general balance. If two classes are able to perform pretty similarly in damage, they're expected to perform pretty similarly in other regards. Melee is hindered by short range flinchlock attacks amongst other things [which are not sufficiently made up for with the defensive options], limited in range, and gains essentially nothing to make up for this fact.)

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Seriously dude, you clearly haven't seen what GU/RA can do. ER kills mobs just as fast as anything you have in your arsenal. Doesn't matter what you think is boring, HU/FI are just not as effective. Despite that everything else you've said is in line with what everyone else is saying. O_o not sure why you feel you need to validate your class choice. No one is denying that Hu/Fi are fun to play. They just could be better.

[The Walrus]

They could do something fun like double the step length and allow the distance to be effected by whether you hold the dodge key/button or not. Maybe make it so that when locked on the step turns into a side step around enemies for a longer length.

I am in no way getting these ideas from my history with Tales. Nope not at all.

[Dnd]

Just for clarity's sake, my gunner is currently lv43, with ranger at lv33 so i do own two class's > lv30 that are not melee. Additionally, other then the quartz caliber i use a set of falz daggers and the welfare 10* sword. At the moment im focusing on Leveling my hunter that has a set of +10'd gigas spinners, with soul/power 3/stamina boost and the damage they do is just insane.

I can only post what I've seen/played/experienced. My gunners weapons are the banther roar and elder rifle, both +10'd with shoot2/soul (because dudu hates me and shoot 3 + soul never works).

I've seen what a gunner can do, all be it not endgame. Chain finish is insane burst damage, but their normal attacks are just terrible and spamming ER because its the only real PA to do damage is just.. bleh. (And even then, my fighter/hunter killed stuff quicker then my gunner/ranger does.)

I guess being tired isn't a awesome idea, if posting here. I'll sum up what i guess i was trying to say:
Melee/hunters/fighters aren't gimped vs the other classes, imo, it just requires a) more skill b) more awareness c) more effort, to get the same, if not more damage then the ranged classes - which is how it works in almost every other game I've played

[The Walrus]

Gunner is totally a melee class that uses guns :I

[Jakosifer]

The problem with your assessment is a comparison between Fi/Hu and Gu, Gunner is worthless in MPA's from a crowd control standpoint, yeah, ER is "great". Pretty much every other class has infinitely better crowd control options when compared to ER. Try comparing Fi/Hu to Fo/Fi in general use instead.

[gigawuts]

Just for clarity's sake, my gunner is currently lv43, with ranger at lv33 so i do own two class's > lv30 that are not melee. Additionally, other then the quartz caliber i use a set of falz daggers and the welfare 10* sword. At the moment im focusing on Leveling my hunter that has a set of +10'd gigas spinners, with soul/power 3/stamina boost and the damage they do is just insane.

I can only post what I've seen/played/experienced. My gunners weapons are the banther roar and elder rifle, both +10'd with shoot2/soul (because dudu hates me and shoot 3 + soul never works).

I've seen what a gunner can do, all be it not endgame. Chain finish is insane burst damage, but their normal attacks are just terrible and spamming ER because its the only real PA to do damage is just.. bleh. (And even then, my fighter/hunter killed stuff quicker then my gunner/ranger does.)

I guess being tired isn't a awesome idea, if posting here. I'll sum up what i guess i was trying to say:
Melee/hunters/fighters aren't gimped vs the other classes, imo, it just requires a) more skill b) more awareness c) more effort, to get the same, if not more damage then the ranged classes - which is how it works in almost every other game I've played

Well, we already talked about this in team, but I'll reiterate here.

The issue isn't that hunter is bad. It's that ranged and tech can do what melee can, and more, at safer ranges, and with a wider area of influence than melee.

So, improvements are something we should strive for. There can't ever be perfect balance, but we can at least make an effort. Other games being bad only means this one should be better.

[moorebounce]

To me it feels like Sega flipped everything. In the other PSO games the hunter class was easiest to use and the force was the one you needed skill to use. Now it's the other way around. Forces are supposed to be used more for support but since they can hold more than their own most forces don't even bother helping most of the time. They're too busy fighting instead of doing their job. Forces should be running around doing more healing and buffing than fighting.

The forces can walk around while charging/using resta and hunters have to take it in the ass while stuck standing still using mates. Whats up with that? Either we all should have to stand still or all be able to move while healing ourselves.

Sega should come up with a way to boost support techs and cut attack damage on techs for forces when in parties that way people using forces are more inclined to their job.

[Syklo]

We need Twin Gunslashes >_>

Making slash rave and additional bullet that much more awesome!

Agility/speed is definitely something melee classes should have as a perk: perhaps add a key (or skill) that, when held, sprints your character (with weapon out or not, idc).
Although....that'd give them an edge in TA runs, so I doubt it'll happen (unless it's done at a pp cost or just freezing pp regeneration).

And although purely aesthetic, i'd love to see the stance skills actually.....well, change your stance visually ^^.

[darthvader]

And the AI NPC isn't exactly that easy for Hunter...
*Watch Hunter NPC dies again*
It has gotten better than earlier, but FO, RA NPC are still more useful...

sorry can't help but reply this, ra/gu npc is the most worthless imo.. they always replace my perfectly hitted weak bullet >___> it gets annoying especially when u started a chain then they replace the wb some where else <_<

[SociableTyrannosaur]

To me it feels like Sega flipped everything. In the other PSO games the hunter class was easiest to use and the force was the one you needed skill to use. Now it's the other way around. Forces are supposed to be used more for support but since they can hold more than their own most forces don't even bother helping most of the time. They're too busy fighting instead of doing their job. Forces should be running around doing more healing and buffing than fighting.

The forces can walk around while charging/using resta and hunters have to take it in the ass while stuck standing still using mates. Whats up with that? Either we all should have to stand still or all be able to move while healing ourselves.

Sega should come up with a way to boost support techs and cut attack damage on techs for forces when in parties that way people using forces are more inclined to their job.

It's not that they get so caught up in damage as much as it is that effectively playing a support role is MUCH harder that it should be especially when compared to earlier games. Switching between roles is next to impossible thanks to limited support tech range. Even with TB you spend more time chasing people around than actually being useful. So it's just simpler (and thankfully it works very well) to go ham with damage techs.

[Zyrusticae]

Making slash rave and additional bullet that much more awesome!

Agility/speed is definitely something melee classes should have as a perk: perhaps add a key (or skill) that, when held, sprints your character (with weapon out or not, idc).
Although....that'd give them an edge in TA runs, so I doubt it'll happen (unless it's done at a pp cost or just freezing pp regeneration).

And although purely aesthetic, i'd love to see the stance skills actually.....well, change your stance visually ^^.
Actually, I'd really like to see them add a sprint function tied to pressing the left analog stuck (yes I'm using a controller and assuming everyone does, I only use the mouse for third-person shooting and that's very, very rarely) for all characters, one that drains PP while you're sprinting and lets you pull off some of those badass parkour moves you see in the intro.

But that's completely wishful thinking on my part...

[Syklo]

one that drains PP while you're sprinting and lets you pull off some of those badass parkour moves you see in the intro.


WALL JUMPING!
I think im going too far off.

[DoubleZero]

Either chugging a mate while moving, increasing movement speed to normal while they have a weapon out, or just having all HU and FI classes chug all mates at Monomate speed (and be able to carry more of them) might alleviate some of the risk Hunters have to endure by actually being IN the fray. The Half-Line Mate skill doesn't activate as consistently as I'd like and doesn't really make for an adequate substitute.

As a Fist enthusiast who wants more All-Class knuckles, I have to say the range on these is appalling. Someone dropped the ball on Flash Thousand, where the uppercut's inherent range is greater than the followup, and can knock the enemy out of range of the subsequent punches! I'd rather it deliver the flurry of fists, THEN the finishing uppercut....

[blace]

Making slash rave and additional bullet that much more awesome!

Agility/speed is definitely something melee classes should have as a perk: perhaps add a key (or skill) that, when held, sprints your character (with weapon out or not, idc).
Although....that'd give them an edge in TA runs, so I doubt it'll happen (unless it's done at a pp cost or just freezing pp regeneration).

And although purely aesthetic, i'd love to see the stance skills actually.....well, change your stance visually ^^.
I keep bringing things in from Dragon Nest in these posts, but in that game the Warrior class and his stronger variations are able to sprint at the cost of MP steadily eating away at it by 3%. The initial sprint costs about 5% of your MP.

So far, all the dash attacks in the game as Hunter or Fighter are only great for starting preparing for a JA'd PA. In Dragon Nest, dash attacks were varied and had more range allowing you to clear out small mobs with ease, while allowing you to recover quick enough to continue on sprinting allowing you to take down more small fry. Not so effective on large mobs, but it did hit a couple of times with some fairly strong hits.

Something like the attack I did in about 27 seconds in.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q5NjAyJ4UU&list=UU52ls4M5heJInhhlLeXUFRw&index=6

[Rien]

Im going to go out on a limb here and say 'no'.

Now before I explain why, it's only fair to point out that I've played both melee classes in pso2 for ~90% of 1,260 hours. I got two lv160+ hunters on pso1&2 and typically 'main' a melee based class in other mmos, so I play alot of melee, basically

1) Hunters/fighters damage output is insanely high, but its not spiky at all compared to say, gunner/rangers huge spikes with chains/ER. They provide consistently high damage when they are in range. On falz, for example im consistently top on aggro, with meteors, lasers and arms all arming for me during the fight.

2) Both melee classes have PA's that are adaptable for every situation, over-end for pure damage in a wide arc. Deadly archer for huge single target dps with double sabers, heavenly fall for a quick damage dealer in a small AoE with advantages of avoiding some attacks completely if timed right. I could list tons more but this post would be a really big wall of text.

3) People are complaining that most bosses are melee unfriendly, due to design or other reasons. Well, suck it up as its the same in MANY games and I LOVE playing a melee damage dealer for this reason. Hunters have tons of guards/defensive ability's to work around this, fighters are alot less defensive in core ability's but their weapons have guards built in (knuckle dodging, daggers weapon ability + autoguards on every attack frame, acro effect for double sabers). You could also just go with all-class hunter weapons and have fighter main to have even more guarding options.

4) Playing melee classes in an MPA is a little disheartening, but when 12 mobs spawn for 12 people, and your in a ranged heavy group you cant land a single hit but then I put that down to the games bad design (I just equip my omen3/lucky rise gunslash and leech in these situations :P)

Playing melee is a challenge, it does require a level of skill that ranged classes lack imo (I saw my brother, a force attacking the zesh in very hard and it was the most boring boss kill I must of seen. Just stood around casting grants till it died, with no risk whatsoever).

Playing a glass cannon fighter in the den is one of the best experiences I've had in a game in months - High-risk in a quite pressured area, but with high-return being huge dps to burn things down quickly so you have time to do everything. You go to the den without melee classes and then just take a look at how much longer things take~

1) Lasers/Meteors are aimed at the closest person. As a melee, that's you. I've gone into VH Falz Elder with a pair of regzaga and still had these aimed at me though my damage was near zero compared to what others were putting out (including Over End users)

2) Too many PAs, not enough palettes. Not that anything in this game can't be solved by hitting harder.

3) Attacks still connect to you more, that's why having these Just Guard/parry-style abilities is kind of a given. Imagine a PSO2 where the most you get was basic hunter's guard that drained pp. The whole problem is with the other two classes you don't even have to worry since it's far enough from you to give you enough leeway to react.

4) Sonic Arrow? o.o

I kind of find it faster in a darker den if nobody's maining a fighter.

And I was maining fighter when it happened. Things did not end well.

[UnLucky]

Forces are supposed to be used more for support but since they can hold more than their own most forces don't even bother helping most of the time. They're too busy fighting instead of doing their job. Forces should be running around doing more healing and buffing than fighting.
Haha, yeah, it's their job to not help at all now, is it? Yup, let's autofollow the Hunters to constantly refresh crappy buffs while they actively try to avoid it the entire time and instantly 'mate on damage instead of wait two seconds for the Resta to come out close enough to heal them.

Even if Shifta was five times stronger, I'd still want Forces to prioritize attacking enemies than babying Hunters. Actually in that case I'd want the melee types to be replaced with Forces so they could buff their own techs.

[Dongra]

To me it feels like Sega flipped everything. In the other PSO games the hunter class was easiest to use and the force was the one you needed skill to use. Now it's the other way around. Forces are supposed to be used more for support but since they can hold more than their own most forces don't even bother helping most of the time. They're too busy fighting instead of doing their job. Forces should be running around doing more healing and buffing than fighting.
In PSO forces got stuck primarily supporting simply because Sega did such a poor job handling enemy resistances and damage cancel caused offensive AoE techs to do more harm than good. From the set up it seemed like Forces were meant to nuke when they weren't supporting but Sega just botched it. The way things are for PSO2 are unfortunately the other way around so that nuking works like it was intended but they botched support techs.

tl;dr: forces that nuke are doing there job, there just needs to be more incentive to use support.

[Zipzo]

I'm surprised nobody has really toiled with the idea of not only slightly buffing melee damage to compensate for the risk...but also simultaneously nerfing damage from rangers and forces (maybe just only a little bit).

Personally I feel the (understandable) jealously comes from a perception error. It's not that Hunters are ineffective...it's that you are constantly perceiving Forces and Rangers around you to be more effective, because they in fact are. Thus, promoting a feeling of inferiority which can lead to all sorts of assumptions on the usability or effectiveness of your class in comparison or in general. Bring the damage of Forces and rangers down...all the sudden Hunters have something they can be proud of for risking their asses 5x as often as the other 2 specialties.

I play all 3 of the classes and I do agree that the difficulty gap (if we're talking mini steps of difficulty, given that the game isn't really that hard) is noticeable. Forces generally sit back and spam whatever hits the most amount of enemies for the most amount of damage...and for the most part as a Ranger you do the same thing unless you're on a boss, in which case you do just as much if not (more likely) more without risking getting hit at all.

I'm all for boosting the incentive to support. The only reason I started out as a force when PSO2 released was because I was looking forward to supporting at all...and boy was I surprised to find I was doing a whole of...not supporting. Even when I did it felt arbitrary and pointless. PSO had a good setup that made S/D and J/Z feel pretty damn important for making runs go smoothly. Hard to really put a finger on how, although the obvious culprit is the much simpler combat system.

[NoiseHERO]

I'm surpri-

HEY EVERYBODY!!!

IT'S THE GUY THAT INVENTED SHEATHE CANCELLING!!!

[darthvader]

oh and one more thing i wanna complain is how shield mobs *cough gawonda* stunned melee attackers for few sec after they reflected it and whats more its unbreakable

there was this time at amdusk ta on vol drags room, my last hit of over end almost hit its horn then the fking gawonda marched his way and canceled it

this is not really a complain of classes (more like lolmobs) since im content enough with hunter/fighter as it is now, just forces technic range is way too unbelievable

[Meji]

I'm having a really hard time understanding why people think Hunters/Melee-classes need a buff to be good.
If you find Hunters bad, you're obviously either playing the game wrong or your skill-tree is fucked up.

I play HU/FI, and can easily take down small LV50-mobs with a step attack combined with a just-timed Sonic Arrow. The fact that Hunters now simply can do +100k damage with Over End + Weak Bullet support is also pretty unique, if you ask me.

Hunter's don't need no buff.

[Syklo]

I'm having a really hard time understanding why people think Hunters/Melee-classes need a buff to be good.
If you find Hunters bad, you're obviously either playing the game wrong or your skill-tree is fucked up.

I play HU/FI, and can easily take down small LV50-mobs with a step attack combined with a just-timed Sonic Arrow. The fact that Hunters now simply can do +100k damage with Over End + Weak Bullet support is also pretty unique, if you ask me.

Hunter's don't need no buff.
I dont think anyone is saying they're BAD on their own, but relative to the other classes, more effort for no extra benefit.
I would love some option to boost up movement speed (not attack speed) but otherwise I'm content as it is.

Then again, I don't play HU anymore, lul.
Just sayin' for melee classes in general.

[Rien]

I'm having a really hard time understanding why people think Hunters/Melee-classes need a buff to be good.
If you find Hunters bad, you're obviously either playing the game wrong or your skill-tree is fucked up.

I play HU/FI, and can easily take down small LV50-mobs with a step attack combined with a just-timed Sonic Arrow. The fact that Hunters now simply can do +100k damage with Over End + Weak Bullet support is also pretty unique, if you ask me.

Hunter's don't need no buff.

A single sonic arrow?

What's your S-attack?

[UnLucky]

I'm having a really hard time understanding why people think Hunters/Melee-classes need a buff to be good.
If you find Hunters bad, you're obviously either playing the game wrong or your skill-tree is fucked up.

I play HU/FI, and can easily take down small LV50-mobs with a step attack combined with a just-timed Sonic Arrow. The fact that Hunters now simply can do +100k damage with Over End + Weak Bullet support is also pretty unique, if you ask me.

Hunter's don't need no buff.

And I can easily take down a group of small lv50 mobs before your step attack hits.

[NoiseHERO]

I'm having a really hard time understanding why people think Hunters/Melee-classes need a buff to be good.
If you find Hunters bad, you're obviously either playing the game wrong or your skill-tree is fucked up.

I play HU/FI, and can easily take down small LV50-mobs with a step attack combined with a just-timed Sonic Arrow. The fact that Hunters now simply can do +100k damage with Over End + Weak Bullet support is also pretty unique, if you ask me.

Hunter's don't need no buff.

Sorry mej but like a lot of people in this thread especially the ones disagreeing then it turns out they agree with the general opinion after explaining. Then such happening for like 12 pages......

Gonna have to call you and a lot of others out on not reading...

Like others said, no one said suck, melees work and get the job done and are even fine damage wise. But it's the hurdle they have to go through, and the fact that they only have two weapon types to really make it work is the problem.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Definitely in the "didn't even read page 1" club, Meji

[jooozek]

Oh my you can sonci arrow spam my god hunter op!!!!! SEGA NERF PLOX

[Meji]

Gonna have to call you and a lot of others out on not reading...My bad. For once, I pretty much just post my opinion only reading the 1st post and thread title. Seems I misstook the meaning of the thread quite a lot and made a fool out of myself. /o/

[Akaimizu]

Not a problem. Plus, people are also a little bit more wary with SEGA going in and just doing some buff this class, nerf this class aspect whenever they might feel someone needs a small bump in any aspect of the game. Sonic Team never fails to completely overdo it, even to the point of screwing up the class within itself.

See PSU. (Why hunters using long ranged weaponry are way better than sword users taking the short-ranged risk for a reward that never came) Or how the RAmarls were somewhat OP in PSO and then they way overcompensated the other way around in PSU.

To a degree, the slap-dash changes is part of the reason why they hardly got Support Techs right during and since PSU. It became basically a DPS/Unit Shutdown game. To a degree, I think they've all but abandoned support balance given pretty much everybody is still geared to impact well while forgetting supports altogether. It's probably why they wont change this balance of Forces going all offense. If they want a support tech unit, they have to fix support first.

Anyway, it's good to see that the forum has matured now that they have experience with ST's balancing methods. So if things are close, they're more likely to not jump in with nerf or strengthen posts. Sonic Team hardly gets class balance this close. Don't want them to mess up.

[Agitated_AT]

I know that hunter will be "sorta" buffed in the future. But should the hunter be buffed? Or should the other classes be nerfed is what I wonder. What do you guys think?

Everyone is calling Ranged classes OP, so why is everyone asking for a buff to balance the hunter classes out? Should that mean that hunter has to be OPed as well for people to feel satisfied playing with the class?

So far no class has been nerfed and only buffed for the sake of balance. I don't know if the hunter class is too weak. In my opinion the other classes are just too powerful perhaps... This in contrast to the whole game I mean. Were the enemies more powerful then it woulda made sense though

[Coatl]

Eh. I don't think the damage output on melee classes is bad at all. In fact, it's pretty up there. Melee classes are capable of being both efficient mob killers and boss killers, they just have to put twice the endeavor as ranged or casting classes do to deal that damage.

Which is unfair, I agree. But it makes it all the more fun at the same time.

All I think they need is more PAs with superarmor. The whole literal glass-cannon flinch like a baby if you're pecked by a pebble being a melee is only understanstable if you have double sabers or something.

[NoiseHERO]

My bad. For once, I pretty much just post my opinion only reading the 1st post and thread title. Seems I misstook the meaning of the thread quite a lot and made a fool out of myself. /o/

Oh god I hate my iPod typing grammar.

At least my keyboard typing grammar is hilarious. D:

But yeah if a thread gets huge I at least read a page back, if I decide to post something relevant to begin with that is.

[Saffran]

The thing is though, I get the sense that PSO2 was designed around Hunters. We've pretty much all agreed that Hunters can do fantastic things, with lots of variations, while most of the other classes need only do one thing to outclass the rest.

GU is OP? Apply the evade roll invincibility time to the flip.
RA is OP? Make weak bullet ineffective on a weak point.
FO is OP? Add a recovery time to each spell.
Etc.

[The Walrus]

I have a feeling that if they brought back bosses from the first game with slightly tweaked AI they would be more balanced to fighting every class and still more challenging then anything PSO2 has to offer. Hell even Dragon would probably be more of a threat then half the bosses in this game...ok j/k but I think you all get my point.

[Coatl]

I want a De Rol Le type of battle in PSO2.

[gigawuts]

My bad. For once, I pretty much just post my opinion only reading the 1st post and thread title. Seems I misstook the meaning of the thread quite a lot and made a fool out of myself. /o/

This is how it's gone down a lot in this thread. We all think melee is itself alright, but not in line with what tech and ranged are capable of.

Nobody really wants the other classes nerfed, and god we don't really want hunter to get something like 25-50% more damage as that would be utterly insane when hunter isn't having issues.

So that just leaves the safety long range classes benefit from. Make close range instadeath less of a possibility.

I don't even see closing the gap as an issue, personally, as that's now in the role of other classes (Ranger = long range single-target burst damage, force = long range multi-target burst damage. Closing the gap effectively gives hunter longer ranges). Hunter fits best as close range sustained damage to me, but it's not very sustained right now because it has to deal with all the hits it takes, flinch, lift, etc.

[Alisha]

it also has to deal with a weak point system wich at times can be infuriating. ive actually got friends that think what we are talking about isnt a problem because hunters can just spam stuff like speed rain...

[gigawuts]

If the solution is to spam 1 attack, then something is inherently wrong no matter how you look at it.

[Alisha]

i agree. i actually think all pa's/techs/bullets should have cooldowns to encourage mixing it up.

[NoiseHERO]

sounds like kingdom fartz...

Actually when I first heard of them mentioning "custom combos!!" I thought of kingdom hearts' system of mixing up a series of attacks. like PSO2's but having more than 3 slots and cool downs...

(and more than just 2 skills being useful on a weapon >____________> )

[blace]

Seeing how long it took Sega to improve PSU's system by PSPo2/i, I wasn't expecting any better.

[GtSaiyaMan]

i just feel like as a hunter i have to work so much harder for my damage compared with forces and rangers and get no reward for doing so because they can do just as much if not more damage from range without worrying about getting plastered by hunar. oh and the drink animation for mates is just icing on the cake.

i WILL say..i was playing with a Ranger last night (im a Hunter).. the ranger was the half a level higher than me.. But this cannon he was using was doing MASS damage.. i WAS sort of jealous..

[Skyly HUmar]

This is a bit off topic guys but doesnt it feel like HUs have a harder time finding equipment as well? Think about it, from obt up untill vh mode was out tigredor was the best rifle and ardillo was the best sword, and we all know which was more painful to hunt X.x.

Right now the best rifles are avenger (granted that one isnt easy) and elder rifle, best swords are ruin charm, which isnt much better than lambda ali imo, madam brella but thats a fo wep, sadeena edge that drops from something youll never be able to farm effectively without help, elder pain which barely drops and is unhuntable, lambda ardillo which is also unhuntable and is pooled with 3 other rares, and soon to be kagutachi and weve all hunted iku, we know the rates there.

And the units too, ragne is the one with the least ammount of the def we need the most and to add insult to injury it was the most pain in the ass set to get up until nab 2 was out. Even now its not as simple as just running to vader or banther and crossing your fingers. And whats worse is that I can see the rare fang and agrani set being s def req and also not having s def as its good point.

[gigawuts]

That's another factor, yes. Hunters need to hunt down more gear to compete, they need to upgrade more items, etc.

I only just recently got +10 for everything my fighter uses.

[Skyly HUmar]

That's another factor, yes. Hunters need to hunt down more gear to compete, they need to upgrade more items, etc.

I only just recently got +10 for everything my fighter uses.

Same here actually, after 3500ish grinders my gigas spinner hit 10, and my all class ds that i got to 50% light hit +10 in about 190 ish. As far as i can tell, i have some hideous grinding luck.

[gigawuts]

Yeah. With other classes it's rod & TMG, optional rifle, optional talis, optional launcher.

With hunter, oh no no no my friend. Not just sword, and not just dub. While these are the two most versatile, they still have their limitations.

edit: I forgot some people like launchers, lol

[blace]

The assortment of crap Hunters and Fighters need to find is up there.

[eharima]

SPREAD NEEDLE slated for hunters only.

but PP spheres make a comeback for FO only! ww

[ShinMaruku]

Seeing how long it took Sega to improve PSU's system by PSPo2/i, I wasn't expecting any better.

I expected worse. :E

[Zyrusticae]

So then the solution is obvious:

Increase hunter defenses dramatically, give them "poise" (stun/kb/kd resistance), done. Nobody will ever call hunters UP ever again.

(I think fighters should remain glass cannons as that's the one differentiating factor between them and hunters, plus they're still one of the best subclasses in the game.)

[gigawuts]

So then the solution is obvious:

Increase hunter defenses dramatically, give them "poise" (stun/kb/kd resistance), done. Nobody will ever call hunters UP ever again.

(I think fighters should remain glass cannons as that's the one differentiating factor between them and hunters, plus they're still one of the best subclasses in the game.)

These are my sentiments, 100%. Fightercould actually use MORE offense, IMO (edit: by this I mean only fighter's weapons, NOT its stances). Dubs are pretty great...if you use stances. When you compare them to other weapons with stances they don't actually stand out anymore.

Otherwise, hunter for defense melee & universal defensive sub, fighter for offensive melee & universal offensive sub, then both combined for great melee.

I believe this is what's currently intended, but what hunter has simply isn't sufficient.

[GtSaiyaMan]

SPREAD NEEDLE slated for hunters only.

but PP spheres make a comeback for FO only! ww

OMG.. If the needler made a return, i'd pee my pants..!! lol

[The Walrus]

It's not like it'd work like it did in the original :/

[GtSaiyaMan]

It's not like it'd work like it did in the original :/

lol..i have so many fond memories of that dang weapon... just mowing through mobs of enemies... and the awesome silenced noise it made when you shot it...lol.

[Zipzo]

This is how it's gone down a lot in this thread. We all think melee is itself alright, but not in line with what tech and ranged are capable of.

Nobody really wants the other classes nerfed, and god we don't really want hunter to get something like 25-50% more damage as that would be utterly insane when hunter isn't having issues.

So that just leaves the safety long range classes benefit from. Make close range instadeath less of a possibility.

I don't even see closing the gap as an issue, personally, as that's now in the role of other classes (Ranger = long range single-target burst damage, force = long range multi-target burst damage. Closing the gap effectively gives hunter longer ranges). Hunter fits best as close range sustained damage to me, but it's not very sustained right now because it has to deal with all the hits it takes, flinch, lift, etc.I think you're mistaken.

I don't anyone with the power to buff or nerf a class's damage would immediately think in clips of 25-50%. Anywhere from 1-5%, 5% being an effective nerf/buff, would be graceful enough to not change the feel of the classes too much, but balance out the effectiveness of classes that have higher risk/reward (in this case, only the melee classes).

Also...of course nobody wants their class's damage to get nerfed. What you and anybody else wants is not always in direct line with what the game may need or would improve with. A blanket 1-5% nerf to ranged or tech damage, simultaneous to a 1-5% buff to melee damage would bring about plenty of noticeable differences that are positive to the experience. One is that bosses would get a *very* slight edge on full ranged groups lacking hunters (more difficulty), and group composition would seemingly make more of a difference. It could possibly even bring about the desire for support buffs more often.

In my opinion that's really where it all lies. The damage being too much. If we were all doing punk-ass damage in relative to the enemies/boss's HP, then we'd REALLY want those buffs.

In conclusion, I think it's wrong to discount the credibility of a damage nerf being a positive change for the game.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

How would bosses get any sort of edge? the fight lasts 5% longer? That doesn't mean anything since the issue is more a matter of survival vs output. no one would sweat 5% beyond cursing it under their breath for having to cast a tech twice instead of once when solo. aside from that it doesn't do anything for the underlying problem.

[NoiseHERO]

would be nice if they kind of... split up the aggro.

Like for example when vol does his magic property flame burp (every 10 fucking seconds) It'd be nice if he aimed at further away people instead of the melee's right infront of him simply because they're doing the most damage.

Sure they're doing the most damage, but between that which will OHKO you, his tail swipe which will stun lock you to death, and his fire breath which will burn off 80% of your health IF you jump out of it fast enough, and his ground poud, which I think stuns you or some shit (usually that just kills me too.)

Yeah having FO's and RA's that normally only have to worry about his spirit bomb (that COMPLETELY MISSES EVERYONE EVEN THOUGH IT'S A GIANT BALL OF FIRE) get aimed that with his fireball would only be one small step. >_>

[Alisha]

the current custom combo system is flawed. the pa's seem poorly designed for that. using partisan as an example since thats what i use almost every pa puts distance between you and the enemy so i have to use rising flag 2nd. and for air combos charged pa's are worthless and trick rave has to go last.

[gigawuts]

That would go a great way to fix a few aspects of the survivability imbalance. A boss having attacks for each of the 3 classes, or a close and far aggro. If you're within X range, certain attacks are aimed at you (basically X would be melee range). If you're outside of X range, other attacks are aimed at you.

So far away rangers and forces would have homing missiles pretty frequently (ones that would be more threatening than they currently are, having to be as carefully avoided as melee is on quartz), but hunters up close wouldn't have to deal with these kinds of attacks that are hard to see when the boss fills up 80% of your screen, or are infinitely harder to avoid due to your proximity.

For some other enemies, enemies sparguns and would only attack longer range players, wolgas would only lunge if you're far away, etc.

edit: I know that this is partially implemented now, but I mean to emphasize the multi-aggro thing. A boss would have a primary aggro within X range, and a primary aggro outside of X range that it attacks just as often with attacks that WILL NOT be as damaging to players within this range.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

the current custom combo system is flawed. the pa's seem poorly designed for that. using partisan as an example since thats what i use almost every pa puts distance between you and the enemy so i have to use rising flag 2nd. and for air combos charged pa's are worthless and trick rave has to go last.


Yeah I think Sword's PAs lend themselves to combos ok for the most part (there are exceptions of course) and there are DS/KN/TD PAs that lead into other naturally as well, but many just seem like they were thrown in by different people with no planning or thought in mind. Partisan is probably the worst offender and WHY I started spamming single PAs in the first place.

There needs to be a flow to PAs that allow you to link one to the next without having to dash cancel, use normals to get to the PA you wanted and then cut loose. This isn't even an option for some weapons/PAs that don't allow for dash/block canceling.

[Zipzo]

How would bosses get any sort of edge? the fight lasts 5% longer? That doesn't mean anything since the issue is more a matter of survival vs output. no one would sweat 5% beyond cursing it under their breath for having to cast a tech twice instead of once when solo. aside from that it doesn't do anything for the underlying problem.Let's face it, attrition is a form of difficulty when we're talking bosses.

A boss stringing you out for all your healing items or stamina (or even just plain willingness to keep fighting him until he drops) can be part of the all-encompassing difficulty of a boss.

I had a conversation with someone about this in regards to old 40 man raid bosses in vanilla WoW.

Raid bosses back then we're quite simplistic in terms of their abilities, nothing they did was nearly as complex as the bosses you fight *today* in that game, however, some still say the game is easier now. Why? It's because the bosses weren't necessarily hard because of their mechanics, they were grueling fights that would string out every players focus and character resources until the boss died. Sure there was a mechanic fight here and there, but for the most part bosses had a ton of HP, and you had very little to bring it all the way down in a reasonable amount of time before healers oomed or DPS could not keep up or any other number of things.

To your point, having to cast one extra tech to kill the boss is not really what I'm aiming at. I think that giving the boss a sizeable boost of HP along with a boost to the dmg of some of their easier to dodge attacks, create a more intense match up overall because you are in danger for that much longer. I'd say a boost that would be measurable to 3-5 more minutes in combat with a boss can mean a lot.

[MetalDude]

charged pa's are worthless

Pfff hahahahaha

You are using Partisans horribly wrong if you're not incorporating Assault Buster and Slide End into group sweeps and find them worthless. I realize they get a substantial power boost at 11 making them a pain to find, but they're incredibly worthwhile for this reason (especially AB, which is easier to hunt, personally).

Unless you're trying to combo for fun instead of trying to be effective (and I personally find blasting through a cluster to be hilariously awesome), AB and SE are hardly worthless.

[Z-0]

Assault Buster has the added ability of ripping through multiple respawns on the spot.

Only in Japan. qq So jealous.

[Agitated_AT]

I agree with Zipzo. Why should nerfing not be an option? As I said in my previous post, the contrast between the enemies and characters need to become a lot smaller than they are now. Nerfing the ranged classes is the best option when you look at it from a broader perspective.

But yeah they decided to buff the hunters of course.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

so buff the enemies O_o.



Pfff hahahahaha

You are using Partisans horribly wrong if you're not incorporating Assault Buster and Slide End into group sweeps and find them worthless. I realize they get a substantial power boost at 11 making them a pain to find, but they're incredibly worthwhile for this reason (especially AB, which is easier to hunt, personally).

Unless you're trying to combo for fun instead of trying to be effective (and I personally find blasting through a cluster to be hilariously awesome), AB and SE are hardly worthless.



They meant within a combo

[Alisha]

i meant within an air combo. also imo both those pa's are garbage before 11.

[Skyly HUmar]

so buff the enemies O_o.






They meant within a combo

Mine is trick rave, slide end, assault buster, launch up, launch forward, stab. works nice, i do about 6500 per PA and with chase it becomes godly good on high hp mobs.


Woopsie lol, this message should be for the man above me.

[RadiantLegend]

My problem with hunter/fighter is you NEED excellent gear to keep up. Im a free player, i'm poor, rares dodge me, dont have 3000+ grinders to get weapons to +10, cant afford to affix Power III's+ spirita boost+soul, mag only has 90 s -atk. So I find myself heavily depending on Fury stance which makes me more fragile than a force.

[MetalDude]

i meant within an air combo. also imo both those pa's are garbage before 11.

Then ok. And yeah, that's the point; they become PAs of choice after the power increase.. Although I wish they chose less obnoxious enemies to hunt both off of.

[Omega-z]

This is my 2 cents what could help.

1.) Increase hunter defenses dramatically, giving them "poise" (stun/kb/kd resistance) - Like gigawuts & Zyrusticae said.

2.) add an ability in the hunter ST that boost's weapons/units proficiency by 50%.

3.) add a Rush Bar ( when used reduce's and slowly refill's ) but allow's hunter's and fighter's when using melee weapon's to move 2x the speed when moving and extend's Step movement (excluding attack's, normal and PA's).

4.) increase & improve dagger's and knuckle's for fighter.

[Zipzo]

If anything, increasing hunter defense dramatically is achieving the opposite of what we all really want, right? Buffing defense simply makes the class like the others...less risk. You don't want to lower the actual risk, you want to buff the reward. Lowering the risk just creates even easier gameplay, higher reward yields more accomplishment factor for succeeding. I'll give you a hint as to which of those has worked better for other MMO's in the past...it's the latter.

Boost the their damage a little, nerf tech and ranged damage and maybe even an actual distance range-to-hit nerf on the ranger/tech abilities/spells. The goal being to bring hunter damage up to equivalency with Casters and Gun users by negating the negative effect that moving and dodging has on their overall damage over the course of a fight.

I think that the solution no matter what should never be to boost our characters damage *or* defense further than they already are, the game is easy enough as such. To fix a balance issue you have to target the right core of the problem otherwise you fix what isn't broken and create new problems.

[Omega-z]

Well having less risk to stay in a fight longer and having to travel in less time mean's more reward to me. Then not being worried in having top gear to compete is much better then an Attack buff.

Because when has Sega truly nerf anything? Even in PSU the only true nerf if you call it one was the Tech Viewing Nerf, which gave people headache's.

Right now it's easier game play but we don't know later down the road, If anything boost the enemy AI lot then.

[Rien]

Here's an idea:

Buff massively Just Guard's return damage. It won't work on all bosses, but it would help a lot.

[gigawuts]

Only for some. It's a start, but a lot of attacks are ranged.

I had an idea a ways back for Breakable Hit Advance. Any part that can break would take more damage from melee strikes. It would be for fighter, and a nice niche role boost (up there with chase).

[Syklo]

Only for some. It's a start, but a lot of attacks are ranged.

I had an idea a ways back for Breakable Hit Advance. Any part that can break would take more damage from melee strikes. It would be for fighter, and a nice niche role boost (up there with chase).
I like this.

Makes more sense when cracking at kuklo/cyclonehdas
But then this would probably be on the wise side of the tree.....probably after deadline slayer.

[schnee4]

Hunter's weakness has nothing to do with the class itself, its the way the game is designed. They made maps twice as big compared to other PS games and forced melee dps during bosses into vulnerability windows.

If you cant kill mizer before he transforms, or chain staggers on vol dragon you aren't playing as sega intended.

[MetalDude]

I will say Mizer is a stupid piece of shit as melee. It's needlessly idiotic how much that thing drives away in tank form.

[Rien]

Only for some. It's a start, but a lot of attacks are ranged.

I had an idea a ways back for Breakable Hit Advance. Any part that can break would take more damage from melee strikes. It would be for fighter, and a nice niche role boost (up there with chase).

If you're up in their face, Just Guard can return damage to them from a ranged attack e.g standing close enough to touch Vol and Just Guarding it's fireball makes it take damage.

[Macman]

I will say Mizer is a stupid piece of shit as melee. It's needlessly idiotic how much that thing drives away in tank form.
Yeah to me it just becomes a game of dash, step attack, dash, step attack, while staying between its bullet sprays and waiting for it to sit still.

[blace]

If anything, this game was made to troll people that chose Hunter/Fighter. Everything is almost always out of reach.

[Rien]

If anything, this game was made to troll people that chose Hunter/Fighter. Everything is almost always out of reach.

And anything that isn't is taken down before you get to touch it.

[blace]

And anything that isn't is taken down before you get to touch it.
Or they let you get stomped on, because those damn dragons.

[NoiseHERO]

I still think 2 huge points overlap, and it's ALSO not something ONLY melee has a problem with

For melee alone they have their hurdles with Gear and close range risk.But for all classes and weapon types it's still problems with the same build/weapon overshadowing others. Like I really like fists. But even with my semi-decent fists I still find myself whipping out my double sabers all the time probably only taking out my fists just to travel afterwards...

Then it's the same thing with entire classes. Like how hard is it to "MAIN" rifle on ranger outside of the boss room. And techer is like.... self explanatory wand could definitely use some tweaks or something.



-I'd say hunter could get some kind of undershirt ability, one that leave's you with 1 HP after a big hit, but if's a move that would stun/flinch-lock you there would be some short invincibility period on the 1 HP. I don't want to say skill because I don't trust sega on the skill tree placement. Otherwise more people would just use automate. Also just a small thing I agree with what someone else said earlier in taking out charge times for ride slasher, I was hoping that would be like sword's rodeodive movement wise.

-Fighter could get a better travel move, maybe like a jump-flip thing that lets you leap in and out of action at a farther range than step attack.

-Wand I'm not fully sure I'm still getting used to this weapon, but it would be cool if they had melee PAs or something, maybe even melee-step instead of forces magical pimp glide since it's supposed to encourage melee I guess? Or at least a step attack out of magical pimp glide.

-WL I'd just make it easier/possible to cancel PAs, and add more non-grapple PAs. That alone would probably make it one of the best weapons.

-Knuckles, I'd boost damage a little bit and nerf the hitstop, and that's JUST so it can keep up with waber's DPS alone. (Also for the hell of it give us some kick PAs, damn. Nobody chooses balrog in street fighter!)

-Daggers I dunno where to start... let them fly again, boost their damage, get them more ground friendly PAs that don't make them feel awkwardly stiff, and have them move forward with their normal attack, and HELL maybe even their air attack. Every other action game in the world? You move forward when you attack in the air to catch enemies that'll be flying away.

-Gunslash I'd give em a damage boost too, and nerf the equipment requirements on a LOT of gunslashes. Long range classes don't use GSes like that so melee users get assed out of a LOT of them. Double sabers pretty much made them obsolete in terms of "BEST SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE" and that new melee PA they got, why does it have to be a grapple e_e AND be so slow. Also a new PA that has really good movement for mob control... similarly to straight charge or tornado dance.

-Rifle I have no clue maybe a damage boost to some of their skills would make launcher look bad... and launcher alone could use some help on bosses.


I'm probably wrong in a lot of places here, this is just from my experience with the idea in mind that weapons should be more stand-alone. You could say the ideal thing would be to swap weapons a lot. But the fact that we get a variety of PAs to begin with and that entire skill trees can favor one weapon type I think that mindset may as be dead. And it'd still be better than now where it's only 5 weapons/4 of the same class combinations truly doing great on the battle field.

TL;DR: melee could use that last hard to break thread of health for surviving, and traveling abilities to deal with their range problem. And all the weapon choices should be stand alone somehow.

[Rien]

I still think 2 huge points overlap, and it's ALSO not something ONLY melee has a problem with

For melee alone they have their hurdles with Gear and close range risk.But for all classes and weapon types it's still problems with the same build/weapon overshadowing others. Like I really like fists. But even with my semi-decent fists I still find myself whipping out my double sabers all the time probably only taking out my fists just to travel afterwards...

I find myself using fists more than double sabers actually. Ducking blow is still the attack of choice for me, but I guess it's because I'm sporting Elder Fists.



Then it's the same thing with entire classes. Like how hard is it to "MAIN" rifle on ranger outside of the boss room. And techer is like.... self explanatory wand could definitely use some tweaks or something.


I think the tweak Techer needs most is conversion of all their mastery skills and shit like that into % bonuses, not static bonuses. Also tweak Wand Gear to deal elemental explosion based on the element your last used tech, then make using a different element tech reset your gear. This way you only need one wand.


-I'd say hunter could get some kind of undershirt ability, one that leave's you with 1 HP after a big hit, but if's a move that would stun/flinch-lock you there would be some short invincibility period on the 1 HP. I don't want to say skill because I don't trust sega on the skill tree placement. Otherwise more people would just use automate. Also just a small thing I agree with what someone else said earlier in taking out charge times for ride slasher, I was hoping that would be like sword's rodeodive movement wise.
I'm the one who said remove charge time from Ride Slasher, right in the first page.

There is such a skill, and it's called Iron Will. It needs to give an invinc. period though.


-Fighter could get a better travel move, maybe like a jump-flip thing that lets you leap in and out of action at a farther range than step attack.

Something like Surprise Dunk but for travel? o.o


-Wand I'm not fully sure I'm still getting used to this weapon, but it would be cool if they had melee PAs or something, maybe even melee-step instead of forces magical pimp glide since it's supposed to encourage melee I guess? Or at least a step attack out of magical pimp glide.

I say give it Step Attack.


-WL I'd just make it easier/possible to cancel PAs, and add more non-grapple PAs. That alone would probably make it one of the best weapons.

Correction: non-grapple PA's that don't consist of redundantly long animations


-Knuckles, I'd boost damage a little bit and nerf the hitstop, and that's JUST so it can keep up with waber's DPS alone. (Also for the hell of it give us some kick PAs, damn. Nobody chooses balrog in street fighter!)

This.


-Daggers I dunno where to start... let them fly again, boost their damage, get them more ground friendly PAs that don't make them feel awkwardly stiff, and have them move forward with their normal attack, and HELL maybe even their air attack. Every other action game in the world? You move forward when you attack in the air to catch enemies that'll be flying away.

There's Orchestra in the VERY least. I think you should move forward when using it mid-air though.


-Gunslash I'd give em a damage boost too, and nerf the equipment requirements on a LOT of gunslashes. Long range classes don't use GSes like that so melee users get assed out of a LOT of them. Double sabers pretty much made them obsolete in terms of "BEST SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE" and that new melee PA they got, why does it have to be a grapple e_e AND be so slow. Also a new PA that has really good movement for mob control... similarly to straight charge or tornado dance.

This should only for the melee department. If you boosted damage in total you may as well just main it as a ranger or some shit.


-Rifle I have no clue maybe a damage boost to some of their skills would make launcher look bad... and launcher alone could use some help on bosses.

Boost grenade shell damage, increase Piercing shell's hitbox, lessen delay on Impact Slider.

For Launcher, larger Zero Distance range, increase power of Concentrate One.


I'm probably wrong in a lot of places here, this is just from my experience with the idea in mind that weapons should be more stand-alone. You could say the ideal thing would be to swap weapons a lot. But the fact that we get a variety of PAs to begin with and that entire skill trees can favor one weapon type I think that mindset may as be dead. And it'd still be better than now where it's only 5 weapons/4 of the same class combinations truly doing great on the battle field.

There's also the fact where only one or two PAs are even worth using.

[Darki]

What they gotta do is add more enemies that are hunter-friendly. I don't think a freaking mammoth could even have the ability to hop like a kangaroo using his trunk.

Also, the thing about attacks moving forward and whatnot, I believe there's a problem here. I think it'd be better that you didn't move forward when at a certain range from the enemy, because then you have the opposite effect: you're targetting a Ragne leg for example and you start moving like an ass spinning around it and sometimes even missing some hits just because you had to step forward like if you tried to walk trhough it.

[Goukezitsu]

When i switched to gunner, i realized why they said it was broken. It good on bosses but that's not it because in a non solo situation hunter isn't losing unless the boss high on speed like the terrible 3 (fang, elder, wolgahda [u can kill wolga instantly though just make him rage and hes gone before he starts]) . Its the ability to be basically invincible on every threatening enemy on the game. I had been working SO hard on hunter and everyones like man this game is easy and I'm like is it that easy??? What am i doing wrong??? I feel like i'm working extremely hard oh.... oh what is this..... I CANT BE HIT I'M ATTACKING FOR THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY. HUNAR IS NOT IN MY FUCKING FACE. THIS IS AMAZING! I'M BUILDING PP WHILE I'M EVADING DAMAGE AND STILL ATTACKING! I still love hunter though but i got mad excited about the changes because better gears and more pp will really help us out big time because we need a little love for all the work we put in. I don't want rangers, gunners, and forces nerfed cuz honestly i think they will be useless. Their damage is good but it isn't that crazy to get nerfed (its cool i can kill banther in literally 3-5 seconds but what do u do when chain and WB are gone). I think things SEEM crazy because every enemy is weak so lower damaging options are still one shotting things. Doesn't matter if its weaker if its still murdering it.

Basically, just make twin daggers better. The weapons were designed for chasing and hitting weakspots that are hard for us. If THAT got better we would be wayyy better as a class. That swallow dive move should be hitting rising edge numbers at the minimum, and should narrow the hit box so it can be more precise and not hit other pieces of the boss other than the one you are intending to hit and locked onto. The other moves should be i dunno? useful? because they aren't lol.

Oh, as for saying there's only 2 weapons useful on hunter, I use a lot of weapons on hunter so i kinda disagree i think people don't have enough good gear pieces in the other variety so they seem bad (which i understand because high end hunter gear is hard to get for some types) or they don't experiment enough.

Sword: Sonic arrow (mobs) , over end (bosses and some mobs), rising edge (bosses good quick burst damage)

Double saber: Deadly archer (we all know what it does)

Wired lance: Holding current (gu wonda krabda types get 1 shotted), Heavenly fall (good controlling ardas), other spin (2nd to sonic arrow for mobs depending upon if u can 1 shot or not)

Partisan: slide end (1 shots lines of enemies and HAS to 1 shot or you just don't use it) assault buster is good too

Knuckles: flash thousand (back of transmizer and good on vardha joints more reliable than other pas when u need to be quick about damage)

Edit: Oh less hitstop on everything thanks!

[Coatl]

I am reading through this thread and I find myself in agreement with almost all the posts.

Both daggers and fists need a tune up, because as they stand now their bark is worth more than their bite.

Daggers need a tornado dance PA (or any way to gain vertical distance mid-air).
Fists definitely need more umpth, but I don't think giving it more damage it the way to go. Perhaps more super-armor PAs.
Wands are a mess, and as they stand now they are rod clones with inferior stats paired with a gimicky gear.
Gunslashes as they stand now is a ranger onry weapon, and it'd be nice to see the melee aspects of the gunslash be put to good use.

[TaigaUC]

If they'd simply add some kind of non-PP chase/intercept ability, melee wouldn't have to spend 80% of their battles chasing after enemies that keep running away from them. It's a significant problem that does not exist for ranged classes.

[Akaimizu]

Hmm. You are right. Some enemies that run during emergency codes run so fast it's pretty much impossible for a melee user to catch up. Sometimes, it's hard enough for a Force to catch them before they escape. (Certain arrest missions anybody where one of the targets does a Lightning impression and high tails it at incredible speed)

I think MOBA games came up with the solution, though. Maybe it would be nice (for everybody) if a hunter got some sort of ensnare style skill. Something that would slow movement to a crawl or stop them for a few seconds or so. That alone would be a great full-party support benefit skill. Something hunters tend to not have in PS games.

[GtSaiyaMan]

Hmm. You are right. Some enemies that run during emergency codes run so fast it's pretty much impossible for a melee user to catch up. Sometimes, it's hard enough for a Force to catch them before they escape.

I think MOBA games came up with the solution, though. Maybe it would be nice (for everybody) if a hunter got some sort of ensnare style skill. Something that would slow movement to a crawl or stop them for a few seconds or so.

i agree...i'm still new at this version of PSO...but at level 12, i think it's kind of lame that i couldn't chase down 5 Rappy.. something was weird with how far they were spaced apart..i failed the Emergency Code one time because of this.

[Nikoshae]

I'm honestly enjoying Hunter, and I'm even gimped as a Newman lol ... I use Wired Lances and Gunslash, and I don't have much trouble as far as chasing things down or aerial capabilities goes. I also don't have much trouble when it comes to groups of enemies.

Personally I like the challenge.

Granted, I feel outshined when I group with forces and rangers if only because they can do more damage from farther away, but if I'm on my toes and ahead of the group I can keep things nice and clustered with a couple of Wired Lances PA shots. I feel more like crowd control than pure beat down lol ... and I enjoy that role :)

[Jakosifer]

Hitstop on Knuckles is the biggest offence against Fighter by a landslide, completely defeats the purpose of the Gear, which is why Ducking Blow and Straight Charge are the only two PA's I can be bothered with for them.

Then you've got Daggers which might as well be for fun only, it'd be nice if their Gear gave a % Boost to Chase skills along with having a CC PA the likes of Renkai from PSU. Along with their PA's being less PP Cost.

For Hunter I would personally like to see a skill that gives a boost to Just Counter damage, but that's just the Royal Guard in me talking.

As for mobility and closing the distance, I just use Knuckle dash, Assault Buster, or Double Dash, MPAing is no problem for me. You're a melee character, keep your ass in the front and get you some action!...Or relax and wait two seconds for everyone else to release their nukes and get free loot, I can't do that crap though. :wacko:

[gigawuts]

Oh yeah, and shields.

Fucking. Shields.

Either certain melee weapon classes should be immune to shield knockback (knuckles & WL stand out to me for this), or all melee full stop. Nothing says "FUCK YOU" to melee like that one asshole wonda in a group of 15 enemies that goes NO NO NO NO NO NO NONONONONONOONONONONONONNO until a force's zan that is not even hindered by this shit one tiny bit finally kills everything on the return flight - or it just uses a zapped zondeel.

God help you if 3 wondas spawned at a time.

Fuck. Shields.

[Cyclon]

taking out charge times for ride slasher
I fail to understand the point. It moves slower when charged.


-Fighter could get a better travel move, maybe like a jump-flip thing that lets you leap in and out of action at a farther range than step attack.
Let's not forget that these are tied to weapons, not classes. Point is, fighter has four weapons, so unless you discard step attack from fighter weapons(which you probably shouldn't do). ..
I'm really against the idea that melee classes should move around faster. That's just a lazy, flawed way to fix the problem. I'm all for approach PAs though.

-Knuckles, I'd boost damage a little bit and nerf the hitstop, and that's JUST so it can keep up with waber's DPS alone. (Also for the hell of it give us some kick PAs, damn. Nobody chooses balrog in street fighter!)Balrog or M.Bison?:o
I'm actually fine with knuckles being punches-only. Now the problem is that their PAs are somewhat lacking in variety... Also, while fun to use, they're a bit bland overall, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.


-Daggers I dunno where to start... let them fly again, boost their damage, get them more ground friendly PAs that don't make them feel awkwardly stiff, and have them move forward with their normal attack, and HELL maybe even their air attack. Every other action game in the world? You move forward when you attack in the air to catch enemies that'll be flying away.
So damage buff, Hagrid for the most part. Fly again...? you'll have to explain. Ground friendly PAs, well, I wouldn't say no to them, but that's not the point of the weapon imo, so not really the true priority, which would be aerial movement. I don't think normal attacks should move you around though, their purpose is to juggle/refill PP while maintaining your position and it's nice that way(dark scherzo, though, should be allowed movement while airborne). What I'd like to see is a modification of the weapon's action: if you were to push any direction when using it, your character would do a somersault(or whatever) that way. slightly longer duration than the original, deals damage in a similar way, but no invincibility frames or JG. Traveling distance comparable to that of step; slower(or not, since you won't be spamming it), but loses much less height than the former. Resets combo, JA at the end, blah blah blah... Of course if you didn't push a direction it'd be the same as usual.
Apart from that, PAs obviously need some balancing, but if raging waltz stopped being your only way to move in the air, that would already be something(but nerf it anyway). Also I think it'd be nice to have a PA allowing fast downward movement(for quick ground contact), just like knuckles' quake howling, but with a bump, so that it leaves your character slightly above the ground(ala scare fugue) and thus doesn't result in any loss of gear.

That's about it really. I agree, or don't have anything to say, on the rest of your post.


God help you if 3 wondas spawned at a time.
Got four of them once. I was alone. That was the day I became a sword surfer.

[gigawuts]

Ah right, I've got a whole slew of issues with PA's here...


Give raging waltz MUCH better range before it just becomes a mediocre angled ground pound. It seems like it just stops working at 8 yards, so at 8.1 yards it does utterly nothing. It should ALWAYS home in towards the target, even if it won't travel far enough. Raging waltz should also use 20-28 PP, not 30 (some amount less than 30, I don't care how much less), due to its actual purpose as a closing move.

Give flash thousand the ability to aim the individual punches like over end if something moves, and give them a larger hitbox. Stop making it push enemies AWAY from you, merely make it lift them directly up.

Reduce surprise knuckle's lift amount, so the third hit will actually land on small-medium targets. You know, the one that deals something like 40% of the total damage of the PA? Increase the third hit's lift amount to compensate.

edit: Give all knuckle PA's step-canceling. This is a big part of what makes surprise knuckle so good.

Fix the shift duck evasion on knuckles to begin the invulnerability immediately, like stepping. As it is, the actual invuln window is only when you're fully lowered - so for two periods during the animation you're fully vulnerable, at the start and end, and the timing is very unintuitive.

Give a couple moves hyper armor, complete and total everything-immunity. Straight charge and illusion rave for starters.

Add a hunter skill to make charging melee & ranged PA's uninterruptible with flinch. Stun, lift, knockdown, etc should still stop it, but not a set sadinian slash.

[NoiseHERO]

I fail to understand the point. It moves slower when charged.


Let's not forget that these are tied to weapons, not classes. Point is, fighter has four weapons, so unless you discard step attack from fighter weapons(which you probably shouldn't do). ..
I'm really against the idea that melee classes should move around faster. That's just a lazy, flawed way to fix the problem. I'm all for approach PAs though.
Balrog or M.Bison?:o
I'm actually fine with knuckles being punches-only. Now the problem is that their PAs are somewhat lacking in variety... Also, while fun to use, they're a bit bland overall, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.


So damage buff, Hagrid for the most part. Fly again...? you'll have to explain. Ground friendly PAs, well, I wouldn't say no to them, but that's not the point of the weapon imo, so not really the true priority, which would be aerial movement. I don't think normal attacks should move you around though, their purpose is to juggle/refill PP while maintaining your position and it's nice that way(dark scherzo, though, should be allowed movement while airborne). What I'd like to see is a modification of the weapon's action: if you were to push any direction when using it, your character would do a somersault(or whatever) that way. slightly longer duration than the original, deals damage in a similar way, but no invincibility frames or JG. Traveling distance comparable to that of step; slower(or not, since you won't be spamming it), but loses much less height than the former. Resets combo, JA at the end, blah blah blah... Of course if you didn't push a direction it'd be the same as usual.
Apart from that, PAs obviously need some balancing, but if raging waltz stopped being your only way to move in the air, that would already be something(but nerf it anyway). Also I think it'd be nice to have a PA allowing fast downward movement(for quick ground contact), just like knuckles' quake howling, but with a bump, so that it leaves your character slightly above the ground(ala scare fugue) and thus doesn't result in any loss of gear.

That's about it really. I agree, or don't have anything to say, on the rest of your post.

-Ride slasher should've been fun. D:

-I was really expecting.... not just pure boxing with fist PAs, grapples and kicks would've made for a dream weapon.

-Basically I hate that daggers are arial only, and as I mentioned in my TL;DR: my idea for everything was more focused on making weapons less gimmicky/niche use. I really would've preferred if they just made a super enhanced version of PSU's daggers.

[gigawuts]

-Ride slasher should've been fun. D:

-I was really expecting.... not just pure boxing with fist PAs, grapples and kicks would've made for a dream weapon.

-Basically I hate that daggers are arial only, and as I mentioned in my TL;DR: my idea for everything was more focused on making weapons less gimmicky/niche use. I really would've preferred if they just made a super enhanced version of PSU's daggers.

What do you think of making daggers have a heat gauge, like swords, that are filled with all the same things they are now? It's just instead of resetting to 0 on touching the ground, they start losing heat.

[NoiseHERO]

I feel like in general a LOT of things could be done with fists and daggers, ANYTHING would be an improvement over what we have. Was actually really annoyed when I read they were buffing hunter... when fighter is the one that needs the most help.

[Zyrusticae]

All gears (partisan aside) should be heat gauges, really.

The absoluteness of the knuckle and dagger gears are my biggest turn-offs about them. Especially the dagger gear, as it just makes it completely impractical.

[gigawuts]

Yeah, I feel like there's far better balance between the hunter weapons than the fighter weapons. Knuckles are HUGELY overlapped with double sabers, and double sabers are capable of the all-important DA so guess which one gets invested in first? Then there's daggers, which are currently only really useful for airborne enemies that won't sit still or come to the ground. For most people this does not warrant a +10 investment. As someone who's +10'd a full fighter set of 10* weapons, they ARE nice, but they need so much more going for them.

Really, there's a lot that could be done with some more thought and role-oriented design. At present, our best bet is to try to get a couple PA-specific changes and see if that's any good.

But we all know we'll just get 40% more damage with level 16+ PA's. Again. And it still won't make bad PA's any good, because what makes them bad is their animations, ranges, and flinch vulnerabilities.

[Zyrusticae]

And it still won't make bad PA's any good, because what makes them bad is their animations, ranges, and flinch vulnerabilities.
Now this I absolutely disagree with.

It's GOOD, in fact, for PAs to have downsides. Sometimes major downsides. What matters is whether or not the risk-reward factor is there. If a PA has major downsides it should have absolutely jaw-dropping effects to make up for it. Not everything needs to be safe or have a large range of usage. Some things should just have niche uses but be extremely good at that niche.

The problems arise when the risk-reward factor is skewed or when a PA is completely overtaken by others in the same role.

[gigawuts]

Yeah, obviously, different attacks should have different limitations. That's the purpose of having different attacks.

But that also means some should have strengths other attacks don't. I do not think illusion rave should have omgwtf-howitzer-at-2-feet damage. It should have something else, preferably flinch immunity.

I'm pretty amused, though, that hitstop is so fucking bad on knuckles that it takes what should have been a penetrating attack (straight charge) and turns it into the best single-target PA knuckles have.

edit: I'm having like 2 conversations at once here and just called hitstop flinch, fixed. Derpin'.

[MetalDude]

A little late but would like to second the "Fuck. Shields." sentiment.

[Kilich]

Yeah, I lost a lot of Overends this way.

[The Walrus]

Overend should go through shields.

[Cyclon]

Give raging waltz MUCH better range before it just becomes a mediocre angled ground pound. It seems like it just stops working at 8 yards, so at 8.1 yards it does utterly nothing. It should ALWAYS home in towards the target, even if it won't travel far enough. Raging waltz should also use 20-28 PP, not 30 (some amount less than 30, I don't care how much less), due to its actual purpose as a closing move.
I disagree. Raging waltz is already the cookie cutter of daggers, you can succeed with this weapon by simply spamming it. If there's a Dagger PA that doesn't deserve its cost to be lowered it's this one, and the distance it travels is more than enough imo. Auto home-in why not, though.
The dagger's overreliance on raging waltz to move around/deal damage/start juggles/stay in the air/etc is a real problem to me. Why would you want to buff that?:-(

[Seravi Edalborez]

Symphonic Drive also has some homing like RW, though I haven't really played around with if it's any more or less or different in any significant way. I used it on Falz Arms from time to time.

[gigawuts]

I disagree. Raging waltz is already the cookie cutter of daggers, you can succeed with this weapon by simply spamming it. If there's a Dagger PA that doesn't deserve its cost to be lowered it's this one, and the distance it travels is more than enough imo. Auto home-in why not, though.
The dagger's overreliance on raging waltz to move around/deal damage/start juggles/stay in the air/etc is a real problem to me. Why would you want to buff that?:-(

I think a better approach to it is more like that of Sonic Arrow. It's not meant to be balanced with other PA's, but meant to balance the inherent flaw of the weapon's limited range.

So there's SA & RW, then the other PA's balanced with eachother.

edit: Think of it like the alt action of daggers. If that was a PA, everyone would be losing their shit over a PA that gave invulnerability and that it needs some kind of rebalancing. The limiting factor here is the number of buttons we have. If it was my decision, we'd have another button and RW/SA would be permanent features of their respective weapons.

[Alisha]

Overend should go through shields.

why so sword can be the only hunter weapon worth using? a better idea i think would be to allow certain grapple moves to pull shields off.

[Darki]

It'd be nice to have a skill for HUs similar to Dinians charge jump. Those bastards ALWAYS nag me there unless I'm paying attention to them. A jump with a variable range that makes you pound on a targetted enemy to close the gap automatically. Even if it fails you'd be able to get closer easily. Each weapon could even have their special action similar to step attack.

What I wouldn't know is how to incorporate it in the system since all buttons are already used... Maybe it could trigger by doing a step attack, but keeping the button held for longer. Like tap = step attack, hold = pouncing attack. It could also use the jump button like just reversal, so step + attack = step attack, step + jump = pounce.

[Saffran]

I dunno.
I still think it's absurd how other classes outperform hunters with relatively cheap skills/PA/mechanics. I'd have those nerfed if I had a say in it.

Making hunters stronger will only make the game easier - and it's already very easy as it is.
Plus we can't arbitrarily multiply enemies' HP tenfold just to make them artificially survive longer - what about the new players who would then need like 40 minutes to kill a boss?

[Darki]

I dunno.
I still think it's absurd how other classes outperform hunters with relatively cheap skills/PA/mechanics. I'd have those nerfed if I had a say in it.

Making hunters stronger will only make the game easier - and it's already very easy as it is.
Plus we can't arbitrarily multiply enemies' HP tenfold just to make them artificially survive longer - what about the new players who would then need like 40 minutes to kill a boss?

I think most people agree that the problem is not HUs being too weak, but the fact that they're overly exposed and they have to be most of the time chasing an enemy instead of hitting them. Hell, I'm a newman FO/HU with tech-oriented gear and my max damage still came from an Over End. The problem is that I can barely pull that off since enemies move around too much... While with techs as long as I'm targetting you most of my attacks will land without me even moving.

Another issue, durability of the monsters for me IS a problem. But what you're saying could be easily be adressed by making enemies get buffed by the amount of players near. So a single player can kill a monster generally easily, a group of 12 can do it easier, but NOT as easy as most enemies dying before their spawning animation. <_<

[Zyrusticae]

Plus we can't arbitrarily multiply enemies' HP tenfold just to make them artificially survive longer - what about the new players who would then need like 40 minutes to kill a boss?
No, boss HP doesn't need to be touched. Regular mob HP, on the other hand, needs a change. A scaling value based on the number of people in a MPA, for example, would be a major improvement.

Bosses still take a while to down even with a full MPA (unless you have a gunner/ranger using the weak bullet -> chain trigger -> finish combo in the party). It's the regular mobs that just vanish before anyone can get within melee range to do anything to them.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

The enemies need a buff as it is. They all move slow, have too much idle time and are not aggressive at all. Yeah we get get hit and take damage by sheer numbers at times, but even as a hunter most trash mobs are a bad joke with the right PAs. Whining that other classes need to get nerfed is not helping anything. If you're really in favor of slowing the game down, you're probably playing the wrong game.



No, boss HP doesn't need to be touched. Regular mob HP, on the other hand, needs a change. A scaling value based on the number of people in a MPA, for example, would be a major improvement.

Bosses still take a while to down even with a full MPA (unless you have a gunner/ranger using the weak bullet -> chain trigger -> finish combo in the party). It's the regular mobs that just vanish before anyone can get within melee range to do anything to them.

Sooo....every MPA?

[Cyclon]

I think a better approach to it is more like that of Sonic Arrow. It's not meant to be balanced with other PA's, but meant to balance the inherent flaw of the weapon's limited range.
This only works if that PA isn't the best at everything, which, amusingly, has also been a problem for sonic arrow(still is)since the beginning of the game. There's also nothing that guarantees that the devs intended for it to be interpreted that way, and I really hope they didn't.

So there's SA & RW, then the other PA's balanced with eachother.They're PA like every other, they cost PP, they take a slot in your combo. There's no reason they should be treated differently in terms of balancing. If they have qualities that other PAs don't have, lower their damage output or something.


Symphonic Drive also has some homing like RW, though I haven't really played around with if it's any more or less or different in any significant way. I used it on Falz Arms from time to time.It blows enemies away, so it cannot be used as an approach tool. Against bosses it IS really useful though, if used properly.

[gigawuts]

This only works if that PA isn't the best at everything, which, amusingly, has also been a problem for sonic arrow(still is)since the beginning of the game. There's also nothing that guarantees that the devs intended for it to be interpreted that way, and I really hope they didn't.
They're PA like every other, they cost PP, they take a slot in your combo. There's no reason they should be treated differently in terms of balancing. If they have qualities that other PAs don't have, lower their damage output or something.

It blows enemies away, so it cannot be used as an approach tool. Against bosses it IS really useful though, if used properly.

I know, which is a flaw resulting from the limited system.

If it was up to me, Sonic Arrow and Raging Waltz would be an integral part of the weapon and balanced accordingly, like guard and twirl. That can't be done, though, so they need to work as PA's instead.

For RW, you could easily just ask for a damage nerf. It's not even the best DPS PA anyway, it's just used a lot because enemies that call for daggers move so goddamn much.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Actually if you time it correctly you can catch enemies off of a SD. I used to do it all the time before I decided to start leveling gunner on my caseal. It's not easy to do at first unless you just mash on attack, but you can JA with it if you know the timing.


You need to hang out with the Tatooine crew.

[Zyrusticae]

Sooo....every MPA?
Surprisingly not.

In fact, I don't recall ever having one in the multiparty (you'd think I would notice a boss dying in a few seconds from multiple ticks of 50k+ damage).

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I dunno, I see it all the time. The WB I see 100% of the time. CT maybe 70% The other 30% is homing emission.

[gigawuts]

Surprisingly not.

In fact, I don't recall ever having one in the multiparty (you'd think I would notice a boss dying in a few seconds from multiple ticks of 50k+ damage).

Are you in VH yet?

Serious question. Last I heard you weren't in VH yet, and between some of the things you've been saying here and your reaction to losing a mere 600 grinders to a 10* in the achievements thread has me wondering how much endgame content you've been playing.

[Xaeris]

I can't remember the last time I saw a Chain Trigger reticle that wasn't mine, honestly. If I did, I'd drop whatever I was doing and boost that thing. Just out of gunner camaraderie.

[Cyclon]

Actually if you time it correctly you can catch enemies off of a SD. I used to do it all the time before I decided to start leveling gunner on my caseal. It's not easy to do at first unless you just mash on attack, but you can JA with it if you know the timing.


You need to hang out with the Tatooine crew.
I know about some follow ups, but I can't seem to reproduce what you speak of if the monster isn't sent backwards. Care to explain? Please?:blush:

[SociableTyrannosaur]

It's been about 2 months since I ran Fighter last. I capped it and Hunter and started working on my Fo again then switched back to my caseal to focus on gunner, so I can't give you details to the level you might be asking. Just after the second kick it's possible to hit your target with a normal to continue the combo. Extremely easy to do if it's done low to the ground. If it makes it easier you should be able to cancel the rebound animation with a twirl and do it that way.

EDIT: I should note I'm talking about using this as a combo starter. mid combo this doesn't work at all once things are airborne unless it's a bird type which for whatever reason is less prone to getting tossed around.

[Zyrusticae]

I dunno, I see it all the time. The WB I see 100% of the time. CT maybe 70% The other 30% is homing emission.
You know, actually, I can't say for certain because I'm usually in the middle of the action and not really paying attention to numbers besides my own. But weak bullet is definitely very, very common. It's the CT I'm not so sure of.


Are you in VH yet?

Serious question. Last I heard you weren't in VH yet, and between some of the things you've been saying here and your reaction to losing a mere 600 grinders to a 10* in the achievements thread has me wondering how much endgame content you've been playing.
Um, yes?

I have two characters I actually play: one is a 49/50 Techer/Force and the other is a 50/45 Hunter/Fighter. Between the two of them I've put in somewhere between 600-800 hours (I have no idea exactly how much of my playtime is actually AFK time).

It should be noted that I'm something of a hoarder and refuse to spend any of the 24m meseta in my storage on grinders or affixing. I could probably do something with that money but I simply don't have the motivation to do so (especially since I'll probably need that money for the outfits released next week).

[BIG OLAF]

(especially since I'll probably need that money for the outfits released next week).

If by 'next week' you mean 'tomorrow'. :wacko:

Also, I don't see a reason to buy grinders, either. You get enough just by running, and SEGA giving out stacks of 'em like they're old phonebooks.

[Z-0]

I only buy grinders when I've been making too many weapons for resale (went through over 200 after using 133 of my own on a Patty Lumeria...).

Still an overall profit though so whatever.

edit: i always regret selling grinders because when i do i always find i need the grinders ;_;

[Gen2000]

I can't remember the last time I saw a Chain Trigger reticle that wasn't mine, honestly. If I did, I'd drop whatever I was doing and boost that thing. Just out of gunner camaraderie.

Me either, I never seen a Chain Combo going unless the member that was doing it was in the same party as me, like actually a part of my group (i.e. I can see their HP bars on the left side of the screen). Random MPA Gunner doing it I can't even tell they were building a chain until I see a big stream of numbers coming out of the boss some time later.

[Soultrigger]

You have to be partied with the Gunner to see their CT. And only party members can build CT, not people in MPA. Hence why you don't see it if you're not partied with them.

Anyways, grinder prices have dropped ridiculously low recently. Kind of funny despite a bunch of new 10*s being introduced today. lol

[Alisha]

because most people will be getting99 grinders for free today.

[Blackheart521]

because most people will be getting99 grinders for free today.

Won't get the 99 Grinders until the 20th ^^;

[gigawuts]

99 grinders does basically nothing, it never has (it might now, though, since grinding requires fewer grinders making 99 effectively more than before)

The only time grinder prices have crashed was with the grinder change announcement. Grinder prices fell from 16k per to 12k per in about 30 minutes. It was unfuckingreal.

edit: Wait, or was it 14k to 10k? I can't recall exactly the amount, but it was 4k in 30 minutes.

[Soultrigger]

I know why they're becoming cheap. Just saying that 10*s usually require more than 99 grinders, so liquidating them now is rather shortsighted, I feel.

[BIG OLAF]

I know why they're becoming cheap. Just saying that 10*s usually require more than 99 grinders, so liquidating them now is rather shortsighted, I feel.

Don't, uh, forget the whole bit with SEGA more or less giving stacks of them away. That probably has something to do with the decreased prices.

[Coatl]

They'll probably make it a tradition from here on out.
They are practically giving us grinders for breathing now.

[UnLucky]

But people eat them hundreds if not thousands at a time. Giving away 99 means one less purchase out of 20 trips to the visiphone.

[Soultrigger]

Don't, uh, forget the whole bit with SEGA more or less giving stacks of them away. That probably has something to do with the decreased prices.

Also don't forget that a bunch of new rares are coming out today. Did you read my post or did you just want to say something that was obvious?

[BIG OLAF]

Also don't forget that a bunch of new rares are coming out today. Did you read my post or did you just want to say something that was obvious?

....you're a meanie-butt!

[Xaelouse]

wow most of you sure are needy. Especially the ones saying daggers need to be better.

The only legitimate complaints so far is for knuckle hitstop and wand. Also a strong enough wand with gear makes handling shit like gu wonda way easier without wasting PP for your spells (that should be saved for one-shotting lesser trash mobs). Besides that though, I see them getting another buff soon.

[Rien]

It'd be nice to have a skill for HUs similar to Dinians charge jump. Those bastards ALWAYS nag me there unless I'm paying attention to them. A jump with a variable range that makes you pound on a targetted enemy to close the gap automatically. Even if it fails you'd be able to get closer easily.

It exists. It's the Double Saber's Surprise Dunk.

Anyways, here's my gripes with every single PA Hunters and Fighters have access to, with the exception of Gunslash PAs.

Sword:
[spoiler-box]

Twister Fall: At early-game, you're given this and it's all good. At endgame, this shit's too slow. Make higher levels of this PA go faster.
Nova Strike: Same thing as Twister Fall.
Rising Edge: This shit does not go high enough. Make it go higher.
Stun Concide: Hitbox is wonky as fuck. It's not directly in front of your character, but rather a bit more to the right. Give it a bigger horizontal hitbox.
Sonic Arrow: Hitbox makes for some wierd ass encounters. I can't tell you how many times I've thrown it at a Krada or a container and watch it collide, yet deal no damage/not break it. Increase vertical hitbox.
Cruel Throw: At least make it go faster with a higher gauge!
Ride Slasher: Kill the charge times on this. Every time I right click it should at least be first/second level charge (I prefer second level charge, honestly).
Over End: Shields can block the hit, but at least let the animation go through completely. Being a PSZ player I dislike the fact that there's two horizontal swings, though it kind of helps with non-boss mobs so meh.
[/spoiler-box]

Partisan:
[SPOILER-BOX]
Bandersnatch: I hate the jumpback thing. So much. Either remove it completely or make it jump further.
Pick Up Throw: The post-11 numbers show what is apparently big improvement in power. I don't feel like it's any stronger.
Flag Rising: This shit should not be stopped by shields. Especially the second hit.
Speed Rain: THIS SHIT SHOULD NOT BE STOPPED BY SHIELDS. Why the fuck is my partisan deflected when I'm throwing ranged projectiles?
Slide Shaker: More power needed. Then again Partisans in general need more power.
Trick Rave: I don't see much use to this PA anymore ever since Slide End. Increase the AOE a bit?
Assault Buster: DOES NOT GO FAR ENOUGH.
Slide End: Despite being what is now the best PA for Partisans, for the charge time it doesn't produce as much power as it should. Make it stronger.
[/SPOILER-BOX]

Wired Lances:
[SPOILER-BOX]
Bind-Through: You turn too slowly, making it really hard to aim where you want to set it down.
Heavenly Fall: Make it an invinc. frame that starts from when you start to leap up to the frame where you slam it down.
Other Spin: You turn too slowly.
Other Cyclone: Too much delay between grabbing the enemy and starting to swing it.
Grapple Charge: WAY too much delay between grabbing the opponent and jumping to it. Make it faster :<
Holding Current: There's a bug where the enemy grabbed by a party member/MPA member's Holding Current becomes invisible. Requesting fix.
Cerberus Dance: Too long, too slow. I like the concept though.
Air Pocket Swing: I love this shit, but you really turn too slow ._.
[/SPOILER-BOX]

Twin Daggers:
[SPOILER-BOX]
Raging Waltz: The awkward moments when you lock on, but hit the ground instead. Make it send you towards the lock-on area, even if it's outside range.
Wild Rhapsody: Increase it's range. Ever since Orchestra came, the only reason you'd use this instead was because it was less PP intensive.
Dark Scherzo: Increase power, and make the hitbox bigger. The last throw doesn't have as much range as it should have visually.
Shoot Polka: This is really the only PA I don't have any problems with. There are a few times though when I'd use it and a mid-air enemy won't rise any higher (And I know I'm not at the height cap). I don't know if that can be fixed though.
Symphonic Drive: The recoil thing really drives me away from using it. (no pun intended) Remove the second hit/recoil and just power up the first kick instead.
Scare Fugue: I really don't find any use for this other than for the laughs, because spinning King Yetis is funny. Decrease the delay between the first and second hit, and maybe it'd see a lot more use.
Quick March: I don't know what this is for. It kicks the enemy away, the damage is kind of okay, but it doesn't do squat about keeping you afloat. At least it involves kicks.
Orchestra: The main damage PA, kind of like Partisan's Speed Rain, except a lot faster. I'd prefer if it didn't put so much % of the damage in the final hit, though. Especially against shit like FANG and SNOW which will jump away from you before you get to do it. Distribute the damage more.
[/SPOILER-BOX]

Double Sabers:
[SPOILER-BOX]
Tornado Dance: Too slow/too much delay. Make it go faster.
Illusion Rave: Not enough power.
Rambling Moon: Not enough range. Increase it.
Fake Capture: Increase the daaaaaaaamn power!
Scissor Edge: This is like Bandersnatch, except you jump up instead of backwards. However, doing it in the air still doesn't catch those pesky Gilnas Cores...
Deadly Archer: Well, this thing is what makes Double Sabers trump everything else except Over End spike damage. I still think it shouldn't have a variable range based on character height. That's just stupid.
Acro Effect: Remove the jump at the end. It causes me so much frustration >.>
Surprise Dunk: Make the animation faster!
[/SPOILER-BOX]

Knuckles:
[SPOILER-BOX]
Quake Howling: Not enough range.
Flicker Jab: Hitstop, and not fast enough.
Ducking Blow: Seriously, even this has a hitstop. It's not as bad as the other PAs though.
Slide Upper: Even at max gauge, not fast enough.
Pendulum Roll: THE HITSTOP. KILL IT.
Straight Charge: Hitstop, again...
Surprise Knuckle: The hitstop isn't too bad compared to Flicker Jab, but it's still bad...
Flash Thousand: Needs more hits, and less uppercut knockback. Follow Scissor Edge's example!
[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Gen2000]

You have to be partied with the Gunner to see their CT. And only party members can build CT, not people in MPA. Hence why you don't see it if you're not partied with them.

Yeah I know, that's basically what I said but people keep mentioning seeing the Gunner chain outside of the party, I even remember a post someone was complaining another thread why more Gunners wasn't using their Chain Trigger + WB combos in MPAs when it was more like how that person even know they weren't using it.

[Alisha]

partisan pa's in general seem to be underpowered most dont even get a big boost at 11. and some seem like they are being punished for hitting multiple targets.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Yeah I know, that's basically what I said but people keep mentioning seeing the Gunner chain outside of the party, I even remember a post someone was complaining another thread why more Gunners wasn't using their Chain Trigger + WB combos in MPAs when it was more like how that person even know they weren't using it.

pretty easy to tell when you see a stream of 40-50ks fly up all at once lol

[Syklo]

It exists. It's the Double Saber's Surprise Dunk.

Anyways, here's my gripes with every single PA Hunters and Fighters have access to, with the exception of Gunslash PAs.

Twin Daggers:
[SPOILER-BOX]
Raging Waltz: The awkward moments when you lock on, but hit the ground instead. Make it send you towards the lock-on area, even if it's outside range.
Wild Rhapsody: Increase it's range. Ever since Orchestra came, the only reason you'd use this instead was because it was less PP intensive.
Dark Scherzo: Increase power, and make the hitbox bigger. The last throw doesn't have as much range as it should have visually.
Shoot Polka: This is really the only PA I don't have any problems with. There are a few times though when I'd use it and a mid-air enemy won't rise any higher (And I know I'm not at the height cap). I don't know if that can be fixed though.
Symphonic Drive: The recoil thing really drives me away from using it. (no pun intended) Remove the second hit/recoil and just power up the first kick instead.
Scare Fugue: I really don't find any use for this other than for the laughs, because spinning King Yetis is funny. Decrease the delay between the first and second hit, and maybe it'd see a lot more use.
Quick March: I don't know what this is for. It kicks the enemy away, the damage is kind of okay, but it doesn't do squat about keeping you afloat. At least it involves kicks.
Orchestra: The main damage PA, kind of like Partisan's Speed Rain, except a lot faster. I'd prefer if it didn't put so much % of the damage in the final hit, though. Especially against shit like FANG and SNOW which will jump away from you before you get to do it. Distribute the damage more.
[/SPOILER-BOX]

Double Sabers:
[SPOILER-BOX]
Tornado Dance: Too slow/too much delay. Make it go faster.
Illusion Rave: Not enough power.
Rambling Moon: Not enough range. Increase it.
Fake Capture: Increase the daaaaaaaamn power!
Scissor Edge: This is like Bandersnatch, except you jump up instead of backwards. However, doing it in the air still doesn't catch those pesky Gilnas Cores...
Deadly Archer: Well, this thing is what makes Double Sabers trump everything else except Over End spike damage. I still think it shouldn't have a variable range based on character height. That's just stupid.
Acro Effect: Remove the jump at the end. It causes me so much frustration >.>
Surprise Dunk: Make the animation faster!
[/SPOILER-BOX]

Knuckles:
[SPOILER-BOX]
Quake Howling: Not enough range.
Flicker Jab: Hitstop, and not fast enough.
Ducking Blow: Seriously, even this has a hitstop. It's not as bad as the other PAs though.
Slide Upper: Even at max gauge, not fast enough.
Pendulum Roll: THE HITSTOP. KILL IT.
Straight Charge: Hitstop, again...
Surprise Knuckle: The hitstop isn't too bad compared to Flicker Jab, but it's still bad...
Flash Thousand: Needs more hits, and less uppercut knockback. Follow Scissor Edge's example!
[/SPOILER-BOX]
I'll only respond with what I disagree with for FI weapons:
Twin daggers:
Waltz - NO. Seriously, that'd basically mean in something like Nab II TA, i can fly from the start point to Ragne. I'd love it, but it wouldn't be fair, would it?
Scherzo - Really? The throws have more range than what it appears to be to me, but I would like the third throw's "pull" to actually bring the enemy to you and not knock it back by a set distance.
Fugue - I dunno about this one.....maybe add more hits to the PA itself (like some spazstic aerial combo? Look below)

DS:
Tornado - Really? As if it's slow...
Acro - Personally, I actually like the jump at the end, and you don't really gain altitude if you perform it off-ground.

There should be more "Interactive" PA's, i.e. click/attack at certain points during the PA for additional hits (So far I only know of holding current)

[supersonix9]

Partisans need a bit of a PA boost. Other than that, things are pretty much fine. Block makes Hunter an easy mode class (for soloing) once you become more proficient at it.

As for Fighters and Daggers, the damage is fine. The problem lies within the fact that they're completely situational and aren't entirely useful for things other than Dark Ragne, Vol, or Quartz. They're pretty handy for Time Attack though if you practice with dash attack.

[Seravi Edalborez]

There should be more "Interactive" PA's, i.e. click/attack at certain points during the PA for additional hits (So far I only know of holding current)

Only other PAs that do this are TMG - Bullet Squall and Infinity Fire. I think it would be a neat addition to add to some throw PAs (Other Cyclone, Scare Fugue), and multi-hit-y things (Twister Fall, Flash Thousand, Illusion Rave, Orchestra maybe, etc).

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Partisans need a bit of a PA boost. Other than that, things are pretty much fine. Block makes Hunter an easy mode class once you become more proficient at it.

Not sure you understand the issue here.

other classes don't have to block. They just move and attack from a distance. Gu has a nearly invincible flip ontop of that while Fo has a completely invincible dash.

There's easy mode and then there's "the game basically plays itself" mode

[blace]

Only other PAs that do this are TMG - Bullet Squall and Infinity Fire.
There's also Messiah Time, but the bullets travel too slowly to be of any real use and like the former TMG PA.

[supersonix9]

Not sure you understand the issue here.

other classes don't have to block. They just move and attack from a distance. Gu has a nearly invincible flip ontop of that while Fo has a completely invincible dash.

There's easy mode and then there's "the game basically plays itself" mode

True, but Gunner doesn't seem to deal nearly as much damage as Hunter without Chain Trigger, and Forces have much less HP/DEF. If you get hit as a Force, you're pushing your luck much more than you would be as a Hunter.

All that really matters to me is that Hunter is a fun class to play as. Regardless of how 'effective' it may be (which I feel it is), it's still my favorite playstyle.

Besides, we're getting a rebalance anyways. I know this thread was made before that announcement, but you know.

[Zyrusticae]

Not sure you understand the issue here.

other classes don't have to block. They just move and attack from a distance. Gu has a nearly invincible flip ontop of that while Fo has a completely invincible dash.

There's easy mode and then there's "the game basically plays itself" mode
I still don't agree with the idea that other classes have better defensive options than hunters or fighters.

You get a substantial amount (especially if you put points in the skill tree) of invincibility frames while having virtually no start-up or recovery frames whatsoever. The Mirage Escape move, meanwhile, has an ENORMOUS recovery time and the dodge itself takes long enough that you will frequently end up having to dodge again immediately afterwards because it's so slow. The hunter dodge lets you dodge an attack and then immediately go back on the offensive. Frankly, if I had the option, I'd switch my Force to hunter step in a heartbeat (but I can't, because gunslashes have shit for T-Atk and I'd have to level hunter or fighter as a subclass, losing tons of T-Atk in the process).

Though I don't know about gunners, since I don't play one. :-?

[SociableTyrannosaur]

thing is you dont haveto use mirage escape that often. usually you can just walk around and keep casting. also if you jump before you use the mirage escape your recovery time is cut significantly.

meanwhile the fact is both gunner and force have those abilities as inherent traits. you dont buy into those skills they just have them. Hunter you have to put 3 points into for the step attack which is the only way to cancel your step or you'd have just as bad of a recovery as Fo with fewer invicibility frames by far. even then your DPS is cut into heavily on some bosses that force you to step after every other attack while once again forces just hang out casting from afar and gunners attack WHILE evading.

[Rien]

Waltz - NO. Seriously, that'd basically mean in something like Nab II TA, i can fly from the start point to Ragne. I'd love it, but it wouldn't be fair, would it?

You can't lock on from the start point. As long as you lock on, you should be able to at least fly one third of the way towards it in one raging waltz instead of dipping towards the ground ._.


DS:
Tornado - Really? As if it's slow...


I find it slow. The start (where you jump forward) and the end (where you slide out) have more delay than I'd like to see, but then again Deadly Archer trumps all.

[Seravi Edalborez]

There's also Messiah Time, but the bullets travel too slowly to be of any real use and like the former TMG PA.

What's this Messiah Time? Gunner only has 7 PAs instead of 8 like everyone else, I don't know what you're talking about.

(Seriously Messiah sucks and I'm not surprised I forgot it)

[HUmar Darkedge]

I wouldn't know of any flaws relating to the main branch classes. Hunters, pretty much fast/slow, who knows. Rangers, they are just awesome for support(and offense). Force CARDS have that "All in the cards" magic trick where you shoot one from behind, whether you aim intentionally behind an enemy and foie-back, or just hold one like a mine. Each classes' dodge is supposed to be unique, otherwise why bother the classes. It's just how you play your cards, 'k.

[Zyrusticae]

thing is you dont haveto use mirage escape that often. usually you can just walk around and keep casting. also if you jump before you use the mirage escape your recovery time is cut significantly.

meanwhile the fact is both gunner and force have those abilities as inherent traits. you dont buy into those skills they just have them. Hunter you have to put 3 points into for the step attack which is the only way to cancel your step or you'd have just as bad of a recovery as Fo with fewer invicibility frames by far. even then your DPS is cut into heavily on some bosses that force you to step after every other attack while once again forces just hang out casting from afar and gunners attack WHILE evading.
I don't know how much you play Force, but at no point does hunter step EVER have as many recovery frames as mirage escape. And the jumping trick applies for hunter step as well (and even better, you can chain step -> jump -> step in air -> land -> step again for incredibly fast in-combat movement with loads of invincibility).

Even if you don't want to use hunter step, Just Guard is easily the strongest defensive option out of everything in the game. ENORMOUS invincibility window, you don't get punished for missing timing (unless you hit it too late, in which case you probably deserve to eat the damage anyways), and it even does feedback damage.

Again, the issue here is range, not defense. Hunters have the highest defense, the most HP, and the best defensive options out of every class in the game. They just suffer more because the bosses are designed to be dicks to melee, and they lack proper tools to counteract that (for example, gap closers that also deal damage, or attacks with super armor).

MPAs are irrelevant. Nobody cares about MPA performance since even 3 force/techers can clear entire rooms in a few seconds. Even rangers are irrelevant next to the power of The Force.

[gigawuts]

lol do people still think ME's delay is bad?

also lol @ melee having best defense

[SociableTyrannosaur]

True, but Gunner doesn't seem to deal nearly as much damage as Hunter without Chain Trigger, and Forces have much less HP/DEF. If you get hit as a Force, you're pushing your luck much more than you would be as a Hunter.

All that really matters to me is that Hunter is a fun class to play as. Regardless of how 'effective' it may be (which I feel it is), it's still my favorite playstyle.

Besides, we're getting a rebalance anyways. I know this thread was made before that announcement, but you know.

o_o yes and I notice Hus outdamage my Fo when I dont use AoEs...lolwut?

Gu isn't great at AoE. Single targets though, GU's only rival is RA/FI with homing emission antics, but Gu still has better survival tools.

My force has about 1100 S Def and 800HP with well over 1800 T atk and I almost never run out of PP. Pretty sure I'm doing ok for both damage output and survival.

You're missing the point really. It's not that Hu is a bad class or can't get the job done, it's that Hu has to work much harder to get similar results.

in other words a shitty Fo will always outperform a shitty hu, A shitty Fo will outperform a good Hu. A shitty fo will just barely underperform a really good Hu and a good Fo will kill everything before the expert Hu joins the fight.

[Darki]

It exists. It's the Double Saber's Surprise Dunk.

Then it doesn't exist at all. I'm not talking about a PA but a default movement for melee weapons like step attack is.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I don't know how much you play Force, but at no point does hunter step EVER have as many recovery frames as mirage escape. And the jumping trick applies for hunter step as well (and even better, you can chain step -> jump -> step in air -> land -> step again for incredibly fast in-combat movement with loads of invincibility).

Even if you don't want to use hunter step, Just Guard is easily the strongest defensive option out of everything in the game. ENORMOUS invincibility window, you don't get punished for missing timing (unless you hit it too late, in which case you probably deserve to eat the damage anyways), and it even does feedback damage.

Again, the issue here is range, not defense. Hunters have the highest defense, the most HP, and the best defensive options out of every class in the game. They just suffer more because the bosses are designed to be dicks to melee, and they lack proper tools to counteract that (for example, gap closers that also deal damage, or attacks with super armor).

MPAs are irrelevant. Nobody cares about MPA performance since even 3 force/techers can clear entire rooms in a few seconds. Even rangers are irrelevant next to the power of The Force.

Try playing Hu without step attack or even 3 point into step and com talk to me again.

I have a 55/55 Fo/Te. I'd play fo quite a bit. The delay is really almost nonexistent.

Anyway I can tell you're looking more to argue for the awesomeness that is Hu rather than understand what I'm getting at so I'm gonna let you do your thing.

[UnLucky]

lol do people still think ME's delay is bad?

also lol @ melee having best defense
It's kinda bad yeah.

It's actually possible to be hit if you mirage into an attack and try to do it again.

I've seen it happen, I swear.

[supersonix9]

i just play the game folks

[SociableTyrannosaur]

It's kinda bad yeah.

It's actually possible to be hit if you mirage into an attack and try to do it again.

I've seen it happen, I swear.

We call that a bad mirage >_>

[gigawuts]

Yeah we're now at the point where people just want to argue, and repeat their previously and repeatedly disproven arguments to, I don't know, get attention.

I mean really, are we really going to listen to people saying hunter's smidgen of extra HP is actually offsetting the hits it takes compared to the ones forces take?

Really?

The thread's run its course. It's now about nitpicking and semantics. The 2-3 people most of us expected to disagree without reading a damn word did exactly that. Bonus points for when they went into detail and wound up agreeing with everyone right after they said they disagree. That gave me a hearty chuckle.

It had a nice run, though. Never seen unanimous agreement like that on psow before. That alone speaks volumes about melee balance.

[supersonix9]

Yeah we're now at the point where people just want to argue, and repeat their previously and repeatedly disproven arguments to, I don't know, get attention.

I mean really, are we really going to listen to people saying hunter's smidgen of extra HP is actually offsetting the hits it takes compared to the ones forces take?

Really?

The thread's run its course. It's now about nitpicking and semantics. The 2-3 people most of us expected to disagree without reading a damn word did exactly that. Bonus points for when they went into detail and wound up agreeing with everyone right after they said they disagree. That gave me a hearty chuckle.

It had a nice run, though. Never seen unanimous agreement like that on psow before. That alone speaks volumes about melee balance.

ok cool

[blace]

Arguing for the sake of arguing, nothing new from PSOW really. I was a bit surprised it was able to stay on topic for so long.

[UnLucky]

I enjoyed the thread.

Too bad Sega's not reading it, though.