An interesting observation on the differences between JP and EN players

[Zyrusticae]

Strictly speaking, this is not PSO2-related, but it was interesting enough that I thought it deserved a mention here.

Naoki Yoshida, the current producer for Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn, has an interesting perspective about the feedback he gets from Japanese players vs. English-speaking players:


I was especially curious to see what he felt about the North American players. From my perspective, the FFXIV community has always been very contentious and often negative. Imagine my surprise to find that Yoshida feels the NA community is far more positive as a whole than the Japanese community.

It's not a question of how much criticism he receives; it's a difference in perspective. North American players have access to a large number of MMOs, and so when a player complains, he's able to provide points of comparison. By contrast, Yoshida argues, Japanese players as a whole tend to not have the same breadth of experience. He feels that the Japanese community will just tell him that he did something terrible, while American players will provide had feedback on what doesn't work and why as well as what does work and why.


I find this particularly interesting in light of all the surveys SEGA has been putting out. Is it possible that the Japanese players are simply not as good at articulating how the game should be improved as the English-speaking players, because of a lack of breadth of experience?

Now, mind you, I know very little about the player base in Japan, and how, say, PSO2's player base overlaps with the players of third-person action games in particular (games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and so on). It may be that PSO2's player base is overwhelmingly casual and not the type to play games in the third-person action genre, hence the overwhelming slant towards low difficulty in the game and why there hasn't been a significant push from the player base to dramatically increase MPA difficulty.

Something to think about, at any rate. I wonder if they'll ever take surveys specifically from overseas customers? That'd be an interesting change of pace...

[Arialle]

i wonder if its like comparing b20 with other jp blocks

[Kion]

It's not a question of how much criticism he receives; it's a difference in perspective. North American players have access to a large number of MMOs, and so when a player complains, he's able to provide points of comparison. By contrast, Yoshida argues, Japanese players as a whole tend to not have the same breadth of experience. He feels that the Japanese community will just tell him that he did something terrible, while American players will provide had feedback on what doesn't work and why as well as what does work and why.

Since is something I can relate to being in a Japanese college. Japanese students spend all of their school career sitting rows and studying on their own. There's no one at my school that knows how to give constructive criticism. The standard way of approaching criticism, is to first outline the areas that you like, identify the areas that need work on and then give specific examples or ideas on ways to improve on the work at hand. Everyone I work with over here has the same problem listed above. They're able to identify problems, but don't offer any input as to how to improve it. I think that's an overall cultural difference in education and opinion beyond games and player response/interaction.

[TaigaUC]

I think what he's basically trying to say is that, because our thoughts and knowledge can only be based on what we know of and what we can imagine, exposure to a larger variety of experiences and allows people to consider better methods of doing things.
It's only one part of the problem though. For example, there are many people who don't understand how game design works but make suggestions and requests anyway. There are also many people whose knowledge is only restricted to one portion, but act as if they know everything.

If you're talking about culture differences, I think JP people may be less likely to complain and simply move on to something better. However, PSO2 does have a HUGE list of complaints at 4gamer.net.
Perhaps he is implying that JP people have many complaints but aren't able to come up with better solutions?

[Zorafim]

Hold on, hold up. Did you just say that PSO2 is easier because it's japanese? I thought the general reason japanese games weren't imported was because they were too difficult for us weak gaijin. When did this happen?

[Zalana]

Thankfully FFXIV will be MUCH improved once it releases. Can't wait for it to be released.

[Arialle]

Hold on, hold up. Did you just say that PSO2 is easier because it's japanese? I thought the general reason japanese games weren't imported was because they were too difficult for us weak gaijin. When did this happen?

well PSO2 is easier than PSOBB imo....the darkers in pso2 are just a nuisance with shields... u dont get delsabers that leap strikes you and s immune to frontal attacks fo example

then again i also find most newer games are always easier compared to its predecessors

[Emizel]

Hold on, hold up. Did you just say that PSO2 is easier because it's japanese? I thought the general reason japanese games weren't imported was because they were too difficult for us weak gaijin. When did this happen?

No it doesn't get localized because it's all cutesy moeshit marketed towards Japanese figurine buying dakimakura clutching housebound otaku, and it would sell 10 copies in western countries

who told you that lie?

[Zorafim]

No it doesn't get localized because it's all cutesy moeshit marketed towards Japanese figurine buying dakimakura clutching housebound otaku, and it would sell 10 copies in western countries

who told you that lie?

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[NoiseHERO]

Yeah Japanese people complain just as much/sometimes more than we do.

And there's definitely things... we won't agree on. >_>

(Like players saying the alpha test was too hard on feedback)

But with SEGAs surveys it feels more like their changes are influenced more than directly doing what they say.. I mean sure that makes sense and you have to make a change everyone will be happy with... But then it's more like SEGAs just making changes they already planned.

Anyway like others already said, this guy is just saying Western players have more games that they've played to make comparisons with when they give criticism, where Japanese players are like "THIS IS AWFUL." But I don't think that's MUCH better. Since you'll have some players that'll see something that's just plain bad and avoidable. And then just say "could be as bad as X game" and just put up with it.

[Alisha]

theres no more to it than that.
western players tend to be very individualistic. i dont mean this in a mean way. eastern players can be almost hive mindish at times. what i mean by that is lets say hunter A see's force B nuking the shit out of every monster on the screen. eastern Hunter A applauds Force B for helping the team clear the area faster. western Hunter A says wtf i cant hit anything nerf Force nowz.

[Scale of Judgment]

I don't think that's an eastern vs western mindset...I think that's haters...

[Railkune]

I don't think that's an eastern vs western mindset...I think that's haters...

Sounds legit.

[gigawuts]

theres no more to it than that.
western players tend to be very individualistic. i dont mean this in a mean way. eastern players can be almost hive mindish at times. what i mean by that is lets say hunter A see's force B nuking the shit out of every monster on the screen. eastern Hunter A applauds Force B for helping the team clear the area faster. western Hunter A says wtf i cant hit anything nerf Force nowz.

That's...not what the article is saying at all.

The article is saying a complaining eastern player says force kills things too quick for melee to catch anything, while a complaining western player says force hits things too quick for melee to catch anything so make hunter faster.

With more experience in different games, we not only have other actual games to compare to, but more time spent thinking about how to solve the problems we may have faced in the past.

[Emizel]

a bit more on topic... in regards to Yoshi-P's comments, I'm sure there is just as much as vapid troll-ish feedback to FFXIV by western players.

those comments probably just don't get to Yoshi-P as much as the japanese ones do. probably only the more constructive foreign complaints make it to him. that's probably why he has that impression

[ArcaneTechs]

interesting to know thats what Yoshida thinks and see's, get feedback from both regions. Now if SoJ would consider our feedback

[gigawuts]

interesting to know thats what Yoshida thinks and see's, get feedback from both regions. Now if SoJ would consider our feedback

Honestly? I've seen great ideas posted here that are implemented within the next couple updates. It's pretty bizarre. The fanbase is either disconnected but coming up with the same ideas, or our ideas do somehow make it to SoJ, either by having the ideas reposted to JP forums or SoJ having a couple people to skim over popular PSO fansites - including english ones.

This site would easily be their pick for even just one single EN website. It's definitely lasted the longest and become the most popular over the years.

[BIG OLAF]

This site would easily be their pick for even just one single EN website. It's definitely lasted the longest and become the most popular over the years.

All the more reason it would sure be nice for people 'round here to not be so snappish and actually act like mature adults once in a while.

[ArcaneTechs]

Honestly? I've seen great ideas posted here that are implemented within the next couple updates. It's pretty bizarre. The fanbase is either disconnected but coming up with the same ideas, or our ideas do somehow make it to SoJ, either by having the ideas reposted to JP forums or SoJ having a couple people to skim over popular PSO fansites - including english ones.

This site would easily be their pick for even just one single EN website. It's definitely lasted the longest and become the most popular over the years.

I feel that we just happened to have the same idea as the JP community already said to SoJ. I honestly would like to hear Sakai say "with some great feedback not only from our JP community but as well as the US/etc community giving their great ideas so that we both help improve this game into something we all like" but that will never happen. Why I feel like most of the ideas said by players here (good or bad) or ignored or might be taken into consideration but never be implemented in anyway.

All the more reason it would sure be nice for people 'round here to not be so snappish and actually act like mature adults once in a while.
thats never gonna happen, ever

[Gardios]

If you're talking about culture differences, I think JP people may be less likely to complain and simply move on to something better. However, PSO2 does have a HUGE list of complaints at 4gamer.net.

From my time playing RO, I can tell you that the jRO players were usually the first ones to complain about anyhing and everything, possibly even more than English players. Anecdotal evidence obviously, but I reckon the same is happening here.

[Rien]

Honestly? I've seen great ideas posted here that are implemented within the next couple updates. It's pretty bizarre. The fanbase is either disconnected but coming up with the same ideas, or our ideas do somehow make it to SoJ, either by having the ideas reposted to JP forums or SoJ having a couple people to skim over popular PSO fansites - including english ones.

This site would easily be their pick for even just one single EN website. It's definitely lasted the longest and become the most popular over the years.

They need to see the Hunter thread...

[Syklo]

Honestly? I've seen great ideas posted here that are implemented within the next couple updates. It's pretty bizarre. The fanbase is either disconnected but coming up with the same ideas, or our ideas do somehow make it to SoJ, either by having the ideas reposted to JP forums or SoJ having a couple people to skim over popular PSO fansites - including english ones.

This site would easily be their pick for even just one single EN website. It's definitely lasted the longest and become the most popular over the years.
Conspiracy theory:
We're linked on the pso2.com site,
SoJ is telling SoA to keep quiet because they're playing messenger by lurking our forums, taking our ideas and forwarding them to SoJ
They will then speak once SoJ is satisified with PSO2's state.

[supersonix9]

i've noticed over the months that japanese players speak japanese and english players speak english.

[Enforcer MKV]

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Okay, that gave me a good laugh...too bad I was taking a drink of water. @_@

I think this is the third time in the last 72 hours or so. Ouch. Thiiiis is becoming a bad trend.

On point, though...Definitely an interesting perspective he's got there. I know that a lot of Eastern MMOs are grindier than their western counterparts. Maybe it's a "Quantity over Quality" mindset?

[Padium]

It should also be pointed out that Japanese players may be less likely to provide detailed feedback for culture reasons. Japanese people tend to be more likely to be trapped by their position in the social ladder. In the West, people tend to care far to much about themselves to think about the negative consequences of their actions.

Example: They want to know if and what is good or bad?

Western example:

I love this class, its abilities are well balanced, and no one ability steals the spotlight. This class however, it simply cannot compete because it is too slow to get a tag on a monster kill, and thus it is harder for them to gain experience. You could fix this by speeding up this class, or give them an aura that tags multiple monsters when hitting a single monster.

(Westerner feels relieved to have said everything)

Alternatively: *spews hate, is relieved* (a minority of people)

Easterner:

Melee classes suck because they can't get monster tags.

(player feels relieved, and TRUSTS that the company will find a better solution than they can come up with to the problem)

Alternatively:

*repeats Westerner's standard response*

(player is relieved because she feels she has given a good well reasoned response based on in depth knowledge and is confident their solution will work for all players and not just them)(A minority of people)

Alternatively:

*spews hate speech* (a minority of people)

The problem is more about a value of knowledge, truth, and contribution to society. (in the west we claim to care about contribution to society. We actually don't, we just don't want someone to take what we should have and in our eyes they don't deserve)

Simply put, we are selfish, they are not. Its not about one being more positive than the other.

Citation: Social Psychology, Psych 253, at UWaterloo

[Renvalt]

Conspiracy theory:
We're linked on the pso2.com site,
SoJ is telling SoA to keep quiet because they're playing messenger by lurking our forums, taking our ideas and forwarding them to SoJ
They will then speak once SoJ is satisified with PSO2's state.

Wait, seriously? You're not kidding, are you?

I need to check this for myself.

EDIT: Oh whaddya know - they do have it. And it's located as an image in a place that NOBODY will look at. Designer's theory tells me the upper left hand corner of any artistic presentation is where the viewer looks first. I mean, I DID take a Basic Design Fundamentals class in college two years ago. I know better than anyone that where they stuck that link is the worst choice of a placement spot for such a thing.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

i've noticed over the months that japanese players speak japanese and english players speak english.

No way!

[Renvalt]

No way!

He's a genius, eh Cyron?

[Hosaka]

i've noticed over the months that japanese players speak japanese and english players speak english.

>PSOW

[gigawuts]

I guess nobody noticed he said that in the other thread so now they're noticing he said it here.

[Syklo]

Wait, seriously? You're not kidding, are you?

I need to check this for myself.

EDIT: Oh whaddya know - they do have it. And it's located as an image in a place that NOBODY will look at. Designer's theory tells me the upper left hand corner of any artistic presentation is where the viewer looks first. I mean, I DID take a Basic Design Fundamentals class in college two years ago. I know better than anyone that where they stuck that link is the worst choice of a placement spot for such a thing.
Wouldn't it depend on how you were trained to right?

E.g. Traditional chinese or japanese writing (especially vertical), you start top right - like reading manga.

[Zyrusticae]

On point, though...Definitely an interesting perspective he's got there. I know that a lot of Eastern MMOs are grindier than their western counterparts. Maybe it's a "Quantity over Quality" mindset?
This isn't true. It's Korean MMOs that are generally "grindier", and this has little to do with cultural preferences as much as it has to do with the fact that, in Korea, MMOs are much more of a social thing, with players often playing in the same room as one another thanks to the prevalence of internet cafes as opposed to playing at home. (This is also why they generally do open-world PvP more often - it's easier for them to organize a retaliation when they can just gather people in the same room for a counter-attack.)

Final Fantasy XI, the only "true Japanese MMO" in my mind, is based heavily upon the original Everquest and thus has an extremely solo-unfriendly mindset. And yeah, the original EQ was really, really grindy. That's more an "old MMO" thing than anything else.

In truth, it wasn't until World of Warcraft came out that MMOs started shifting away from the "grind is life" mentality, but that also came alongside a shift of emphasis away from the world part of the MMO towards the game part of the MMO (which was NOT a net positive change, IMO). Aion, for example, is about a thousand times easier to hit the level cap in than Lineage II. Tera even moreso.

Of course, this extrication of grind in MMOs probably also contributes to the phenomenon of exceptionally fast burnout in modern games, as players find themselves without any sort of goal to pursue so they just quit after the first or second month. Hence, developers are trying to find some sort of middle ground that keeps less-dedicated players hooked while giving hardcore players some sort of carrot to chase. In PSO2, they've got plenty of both - casual players can focus on grinding older or more easily-found rares with weaker affixes and trying to hit the 55 cap while the hardcore have the nearly un-findable 10*s to shoot for along with trying to grind and affix those things to the maximum.

Unfortunately, they have a harder time finding a nice middle ground in terms of difficulty, as we all well know. Advance quests have been something of an attempt at that, but even they don't challenge the hardcore players as much as they really should. I'll still applaud them for the effort, however.

Sorry for the wall of text. This is a topic near and dear to my heart, after all, since I pretty much grew up in the dawning days of the MMO. :-)

[ShinMaruku]

Hold on, hold up. Did you just say that PSO2 is easier because it's japanese? I thought the general reason japanese games weren't imported was because they were too difficult for us weak gaijin. When did this happen?
Actually a bunch of Japanese games are easier than they are for the west. MGS and DMC and NG were legendary for how the Western Versions were in their diffuculty.

[Zorafim]

Okay, that gave me a good laugh...too bad I was taking a drink of water. @_@

I think this is the third time in the last 72 hours or so. Ouch. Thiiiis is becoming a bad trend.

Your poor monitor. You might want to start investing in a cover.


Simply put, we are selfish, they are not. Its not about one being more positive than the other.

If I understand your argument correctly... Because we're selfish, we're better at providing crucial information, and therefore make the world a better place? I follow your logic, though that conclusion seems counter-intuitive. But isn't that the concept which the western world is based off of?

[yoshiblue]

Grey and grey morality.

[gigawuts]

This isn't true. It's Korean MMOs that are generally "grindier", and this has little to do with cultural preferences as much as it has to do with the fact that, in Korea, MMOs are much more of a social thing, with players often playing in the same room as one another thanks to the prevalence of internet cafes as opposed to playing at home. (This is also why they generally do open-world PvP more often - it's easier for them to organize a retaliation when they can just gather people in the same room for a counter-attack.)

Final Fantasy XI, the only "true Japanese MMO" in my mind, is based heavily upon the original Everquest and thus has an extremely solo-unfriendly mindset. And yeah, the original EQ was really, really grindy. That's more an "old MMO" thing than anything else.

In truth, it wasn't until World of Warcraft came out that MMOs started shifting away from the "grind is life" mentality, but that also came alongside a shift of emphasis away from the world part of the MMO towards the game part of the MMO (which was NOT a net positive change, IMO). Aion, for example, is about a thousand times easier to hit the level cap in than Lineage II. Tera even moreso.

Of course, this extrication of grind in MMOs probably also contributes to the phenomenon of exceptionally fast burnout in modern games, as players find themselves without any sort of goal to pursue so they just quit after the first or second month. Hence, developers are trying to find some sort of middle ground that keeps less-dedicated players hooked while giving hardcore players some sort of carrot to chase. In PSO2, they've got plenty of both - casual players can focus on grinding older or more easily-found rares with weaker affixes and trying to hit the 55 cap while the hardcore have the nearly un-findable 10*s to shoot for along with trying to grind and affix those things to the maximum.

Unfortunately, they have a harder time finding a nice middle ground in terms of difficulty, as we all well know. Advance quests have been something of an attempt at that, but even they don't challenge the hardcore players as much as they really should. I'll still applaud them for the effort, however.

Sorry for the wall of text. This is a topic near and dear to my heart, after all, since I pretty much grew up in the dawning days of the MMO. :-)

This is something I felt PSO1 handled well. Grinding to the level cap was incredibly time intensive, but it was also optional. The meat of the game was up to, like, level 130 let's say (I don't know, it'll vary by class and skill level). Getting rares here and there that you could use without investing was a frequent occurrence all the way up to and into ultimate. This was the real player progression to me. Upgrading your gear was not an enormous hassle or stressful chore, it was something that just happened.

Now, hunting for a particular rare with a particular stat (let's say, native/dark/hit) could be painstaking. But, then, that's the same as finding a rare at all in this game. Plus if you found another amazing item, like let's say my oft mentioned 50 hit Sange found while looking for a hit Chainsawd (it took 13 or so to find a 15 hit chainsawd, I consider that lucky), I could trade that sucker for what I wanted. Or maybe the 25 hit Asuka while looking for something else, or--

Point is, they've removed the absurd yet optional level cap grind and turned it into an absurd gear grind that is comparably less optional, yet still optional if you don't care about using noticeably inferior items or what your weapons look like (in a dressup sim most people will care what their weapons look like, and you can bet they're counting on that).

edit: Also, I love AQ's to bits. While HU is still at a serious disadvantage, enemies take on average longer to kill. If zonde wasn't so omgwtf, and hunters were faster and better prepared for things such as flinch, we'd really be on to something. I've always preferred games where multiple enemies take more time to kill than a game with a shitload of enemies with 1 hp. I feel this way in FPS games, RPG's, MMO's, all of it. Longer fights are just more fun.

[FacelessRed]

Longer fights are not more fun. they are absolutely NOT more fun. it's every MMO I played the began to opt for the longer fight nonsense, WoW, Lineage 2, everything! it isn't more fun at all. It's balance that is the issue. City of Heroes for example had the perfect enemy pace. More people show up? more team synergy was required. Higher ranked enemies replaced the low ranks that died in 1-2 hits. Skill timing, spacing and management was a must to keep enemies from swarming you. even though they went down quick, you had to be quick to.

Long fights are just boring, t he game literally turns into a rhythm game. button 1-2-3-5-4 1-2-3-5-4 2-2-2 3. Next... no =/ don't like that at all. rapid changing situations are the best.

That being said PSO2 hasn't mastered the battle encounter. Enemy AI is largely i ndividual and random. and they don't coordinate very well or have any kind of specific process you can adapt to.

Also enemies don't counter ranged fighters whatsoever, so yes forces and gunners dominate everything.

[gigawuts]

This depends on what you consider "longer." I consider an enemy taking 3-5 hits to kill ideal. Not one. Then you have things like we have now, with long range classes killing in one hit and short range classes being unable to keep up with the pace.

[Polychrome]

A comment on the "grindiness" of Korean MMOs:

I've noticed that Korean MMOs tend to start small. VERY small. As if they're a proof of concept more than anything when they first start out. The grindiness is there to pad out the game and prevent people from maxing out immediately more than anything else.

If the game can't hold its audience, it is abandoned. If people like it, more effort is put into it. The game grows, the grindiness is slowly phased out in favor of content so that people have more to do, and a more reasonable route to endgame content is established. (Usually to the chagrin of veteran players.)

In a weird way, it's like the game company is pitching the game to its audience. Maybe indeed a webcafe audience is better for that sort of thing, but I think it's also the fact that there's a lot of these newbie MMOs to choose from.

The biggest Korean MMOs I know of didn't get that way overnight. Games such as Mabinogi started out as one town and a tiny overworld with a dungeon or two. That one is huge now.

On the western side, rather than many small games pitched to the populace to test the waters and see what'll sell, a lot of effort is taken to make an MMO into a huge production right from the start. Is it better or worse? I dunno if there's a right or wrong way in this sense. Seems like the usual case of playing pro/con. For the successful games, the end result is the same.

For what it's worth, I never found PSU to be particularly grindy. Most of the content scaled, so you could pretty much do whatever areas you wanted easily from the beginning. The bad part of that is you ran out of content fairly quickly, which probably explains the timed release of story instances. We'll see how things go with PSO2.