Lucky Rise and Drop Rate calculations

[jerrykun]

I've seen some videos where people equip their units with lucky rise before breaking the red crystal from bosses. Here are my questions:
when are drops calculated?
when does lucky rise kicks in?
when would you advice using lucky rise on weapons?
for players on Lvl 30-40, would you advice sacrificing stats and souls just to keep lucky rise on weapons? (considering you would have to leave it as you got it since lucky rise is not transferable).

Thanks, looking forward for your input!

[Xaeris]

Drops are decided upon the breaking of the crystal, so, you can have one weapon with Lucky Rise for the specific purpose of busting open crystals, or at least having equipped when the crystal is broken. So, you don't really have to make any sacrifices to get the best odds of getting a drop from a boss crystal; you can just use your real weapons to kill it, and then equip your Lucky Riser (and units, if available) for the looting.

[Sizustar]

Drops are decided upon the breaking of the crystal, so, you can have one weapon with Lucky Rise for the specific purpose of busting open crystals, or at least having equipped when the crystal is broken. So, you don't really have to make any sacrifices to get the best odds of getting a drop from a boss crystal; you can just use your real weapons to kill it, and then equip your Lucky Riser (and units, if available) for the looting.

If that's the case, then why does drink run out before the breaking of the crystal?

[gigawuts]

If that's the case, then why does drink run out before the breaking of the crystal?

Three things:
1. You've cleared the mission, and the drink auto-expires when you clear any mission.
2. It doesn't expire before you can loot crystals in missions with multiple minibosses.
3. Sega. Argue with this one, I dare you.

[Xaeris]

Flawed design, oversight, who knows? But there's an easy way to prove it. If you have a client order that requires drops from an enemy (say, one of Franka's), and you're carrying enough to fill the order, no more of that item will drop. So, if you're collecting Vol Dragon fangs and send a full order of the item to your storage after you slay the boss, you can determine when drops are calculated, based on the results of the crystal. If contents are determined upon boss kill, then it shouldn't be possible for there to be any fangs in the crystal since you were full on fangs when you killed the boss. If they're determined upon breaking the crystal, after you've sent the fangs to storage, then there's a possibility you'll receive more fangs.

The answer is that fangs can drop in this scenario, thus allowing us to conclude that the drops of a crystal are determined upon its breaking. Alternatively, you can do a similar test using a weapon with Meseta Fever and you'll arrive at the same conclusion based on the meseta you get.

[holmwood]

Flawed design, oversight, who knows? But there's an easy way to prove it. If you have a client order that requires drops from an enemy (say, one of Franka's), and you're carrying enough to fill the order, no more of that item will drop. So, if you're collecting Vol Dragon fangs and send a full order of the item to your storage after you slay the boss, you can determine when drops are calculated, based on the results of the crystal. If contents are determined upon boss kill, then it shouldn't be possible for there to be any fangs in the crystal since you were full on fangs when you killed the boss. If they're determined upon breaking the crystal, after you've sent the fangs to storage, then there's a possibility you'll receive more fangs.

The answer is that fangs can drop in this scenario, thus allowing us to conclude that the drops of a crystal are determined upon its breaking. Alternatively, you can do a similar test using a weapon with Meseta Fever and you'll arrive at the same conclusion based on the meseta you get.
I concur with the meseta fever results. Tested it myself.

[ArcaneTechs]

Flawed design, oversight, who knows? But there's an easy way to prove it. If you have a client order that requires drops from an enemy (say, one of Franka's), and you're carrying enough to fill the order, no more of that item will drop. So, if you're collecting Vol Dragon fangs and send a full order of the item to your storage after you slay the boss, you can determine when drops are calculated, based on the results of the crystal. If contents are determined upon boss kill, then it shouldn't be possible for there to be any fangs in the crystal since you were full on fangs when you killed the boss. If they're determined upon breaking the crystal, after you've sent the fangs to storage, then there's a possibility you'll receive more fangs.

The answer is that fangs can drop in this scenario, thus allowing us to conclude that the drops of a crystal are determined upon its breaking. Alternatively, you can do a similar test using a weapon with Meseta Fever and you'll arrive at the same conclusion based on the meseta you get.

either im reading your post wrong or im over thinking it (might be because im half asleep)

Your Scenario:

Full inventory of fangs>Boss Dies>Crystal appears>Store Fangs>Break Crystal>Fang drops

Full inventory of fangs>Store Fangs>Kill Boss>Break Crystal>No Fangs?

I dont about that but as far as I know, when I have delivery CO's that require lets say 10 mats (or 99, w/e you prefer) and you store them after you completed the client order (during mid mission of course), the mats still drop after whatever it is that drops it. In the sense of bosses, it still does the same if I have it cleared, store the item before death and it will drop out of the crystal :0

[gigawuts]

either im reading your post wrong or im over thinking it (might be because im half asleep)

Your Scenario:

Full inventory of fangs>Boss Dies>Crystal appears>Store Fangs>Break Crystal>Fang drops

Full inventory of fangs>Store Fangs>Kill Boss>Break Crystal>No Fangs?

I dont about that but as far as I know, when I have delivery CO's that require lets say 10 mats (or 99, w/e you prefer) and you store them after you completed the client order (during mid mission of course), the mats still drop after whatever it is that drops it. In the sense of bosses, it still does the same if I have it cleared, store the item before death and it will drop out of the crystal :0

What I've bolded is what he says happens, and it does.

[Xaeris]

I think you've misunderstood me. Understandable, I kind of wrote it in a hurry. What I'm doing is pitting two plausible theories of drop calculations against each other. One states that drops are determined at the moment the boss dies, before the crystal ever appears. The other states tht drops are determined when the crystal is broken.

In the first case, it would be impossible to get fangs since you would be full on them when the drops were calculated. In the second, is is possible to get fangs since you aren't full at that moment. Since the second is how it goes in actual practice, the second theory is the one that correctly explains when drops are determined.

[Silver_Wyrm]

I just ran forest normal, killed rockbear then switched to a meseta fever weapon and broke the crystal, I got bonus meseta.

So there we go. Kinda contradicts with the quest item thing though, so...what sega.

[Maronji]

Kinda contradicts with the quest item thing though, so...

I don't get it. What's so contradictory? Looks like it lines up to me.

Or is it late and I'm missing something because I'm probably more mentally fatigued than I think I am?

[gigawuts]

I just ran forest normal, killed rockbear then switched to a meseta fever weapon and broke the crystal, I got bonus meseta.

So there we go.

While this initially sounded like it would work, it's surfaced that meseta only drops if an item has failed to drop.

That is, if you get 4 meseta drops, you've actually gotten nothing. So it may be that items are determined at boss death, and meseta gets the bonus when you break the crystal.

But this is speculative, and the CO method is good enough for me.

(Although, CO items do not take a spot in the item drops, and may also be separate...but this is good enough for me)

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I just ran forest normal, killed rockbear then switched to a meseta fever weapon and broke the crystal, I got bonus meseta.

So there we go. Kinda contradicts with the quest item thing though, so...what sega.

Sounds like you dont understand the quest item thing then >_>

[Xaeris]

I just ran forest normal, killed rockbear then switched to a meseta fever weapon and broke the crystal, I got bonus meseta.

So there we go. Kinda contradicts with the quest item thing though, so...what sega.

No it doesn't. I'm saying contents are determined at the time of the crystal breaking. If you switch to a Meseta Fever weapon after killing the boss, break the crystal with it, and get extra meseta, then you've experienced precisely what I said would happen.

[Silver_Wyrm]

Sounds like you dont understand the quest item thing then >_>

no I read it wrong, and its late, and I'm thinking about fxiv beta coming up right now, haha. In any case, there is the meseta case to toss int he mix.

[Xaeris]

I got that e-mail. I'm too butthurt over FFXIV's first release to give them a second chance. Good luck with that, though.

[gigawuts]

Actually, eventually I'd like to test a few things.
1. Get lots of kills to rack up the kill points for more core drops -> let party enter boss room without you -> have party break all parts -> have party kill boss -> come in to break crystal -> count drops, look for rare units, repeat
2. Get NO kills, stay in the campship the entire run -> let party enter boss room without you -> have party break all parts -> have party kill boss -> count drops, look for rare units, repeat
3. Find a random boss with breakable parts & rare units in the field -> break parts with entire team present -> kill boss -> everyone log out then come back into the party -> break the crystal with the entire party present -> count drops, look for rare units, repeat

I'd be interested in seeing the results for each of these.

[holmwood]

While this initially sounded like it would work, it's surfaced that meseta only drops if an item has failed to drop.

That is, if you get 4 meseta drops, you've actually gotten nothing. So it may be that items are determined at boss death, and meseta gets the bonus when you break the crystal.

But this is speculative, and the CO method is good enough for me.

(Although, CO items do not take a spot in the item drops, and may also be separate...but this is good enough for me)

That makes sense. The meseta fever argument has that issue. The other method would be to have two groups of people kill with or without lucky rise equipment, and count the number of equips you get per trial. We will then pool our data together and do a Chi squared analysis to test for significant differences.

One person can do all the work of course, but that'll take way too long....

[Meji]

I'd be interested in seeing the results for each of these.
Wanna make science today? Just you and me, with a handful of corgis? <3