Keeping The Renvalt Challenge Train Going!!

[Zenobia]

Gotta say you gotta hand it to Renvalt for these uber cool challenges and i hope to see what else he cooks up in that evil mind of his~

Any this is me(Yuri) no damage boss solo runs and to further up the Ante on difficulty i did this with no Just Guard. No Blood,No Bone,No Bullshit.

Anyway enjoy the vid oh and one more ting.

Fury Critical+Brave Critical+Wise Critical=LOL CRITS and i so enjoy my crtis<3

Also pls excuse all the spring steps i am a mad spring stepper~

GONNA BE UPDATING THIS AS MORE HU/FI AND OR FI/HU MAKE THEIR SKILLZ KNOWN

Also if you posted your vid pm me so i can update it accordingly~

GZ to the following HU/FI and or FI/HU's who have completed this so far~

Sky HUmarl AKA HANNIBAL

[SPOILER-BOX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAM7EgJScFc[/QUOTE][/SPOILER-BOX]

Yuri

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVsKqXyTjyk[/SPOILER-BOX]

Crysteon

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiIp8j_oUGQ[/QUOTE]
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Bellion AKA Caprus

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMcIo4onssY[/SPOILER-BOX]

TehBlackUchiha

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkmhpeMdYp0[/QUOTE]
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MommyCornelia AKA Cornelia

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO9cZpmjb7Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO9cZpmjb7Q[/QUOTE][/SPOILER-BOX]

[~Aya~]

Knew you could do it! Very nice!!!!

[Zenobia]

Knew you could do it! Very nice!!!!

Thx for believing in me Aya~

[~Aya~]

Im getting online now.... cause im pumped after watching.

[Drifting Fable]

Man and here I've been hearing crit skills were useless :o

I-I don't even know what I'm doing to fix my build anymore.

[gigawuts]

Man and here I've been hearing crit skills were useless :o

I-I don't even know what I'm doing to fix my build anymore.

Earlier Yuri helped me test the rates of crit skills, and it appears the stance crit skills add to the base rate while shifta multiplies the other rates combined.

Emphasis on "appears." I don't know exactly what adds and what multiplies. We only did 763 hits, and the rate fell perfectly in line with stances adding to base rate & shifta multiplying all of the added rates, which is pretty unlikely to be so perfect with only 763 noted hits but hey.

As it is, crit skills WOULD be good if it didn't mean sacrificing another skill. At present I'd say 2 or more crit skills, if combined, outweigh equal points spent in raw atk up skills for raw dps. But that's all I would say with certainty.

[Coatl]

Respect.
Going to show all my huntard peeps.

My only real gripe is, and I notice it's like a trend among melees, but people are really pansy about quartz's attacks. They almost always dodge out of his attack instead of using their invincibility frames (or hell just guard) to null his attacks. I know I'm nitpicking, but I just think a boss fight is much more enjoyable when you can face the boss without fear, and with style.

But don't mind me you did great. ^^

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Man and here I've been hearing crit skills were useless :o

I-I don't even know what I'm doing to fix my build anymore.

Crit skills ARE useless unless your dex is abysmal.

[Coatl]

Well seeing as how it's become like the norm to have a pure mag is it not safe to assume most non-rangers have abysmal dex? Regardless, I am underwhelmed by the crit skills. Until I can see them being significantly better than some of the other choices in a tree, they still don't seem worth maxing.

[Zenobia]

Respect.
Going to show all my huntard peeps.

My only real gripe is, and I notice it's like a trend among melees, but people are really pansy about quartz's attacks. They almost always dodge out of his attack instead of using their invincibility frames (or hell just guard) to null his attacks. I know I'm nitpicking, but I just think a boss fight is much more enjoyable when you can face the boss without fear, and with style.

But don't mind me you did great. ^^

Dunno if you read up top i did say i did this without just Guard for major difficulty also the invincibility frames from just the dodge alone is JUST as good.

But thx though.

Side note @Sociable i have 434 dex and yes im critting like that with only 434 dex.

[Crysteon]

So now people just call these "No damage" boss rush vids like that? I can see Renvalt being flattered by this :0

I guess I'll give it a try myself later. This isnt hard at all, lol.

[ReaperTheAbsol]

Dammit, Yuri. You're obviously widening the gap and driving our competition into overdrive. If you think I'm going to bend over and accept this you're wrong, but I will acknowledge you for keeping the flames of our love and rivalry lit with my absence.

OT: I loved watching this, and next time I log on I should attempt to solo each boss accordingly. I, however, will not be looking forward to Quartz. Never liked the fight, never will.

[Skyly HUmar]

Dunno if you read up top i did say i did this without just Guard for major difficulty also the invincibility frames from just the dodge alone is JUST as good.

But thx though.

Side note @Sociable i have 434 dex and yes im critting like that with only 434 dex.

Actually the dodge is a better way to avoid damage than a guard if youre good with timing anyway. Imo a guard is more of a countering manuver than a dammage avoider alone.

And very nicley done bud, always fun to see good melees going at it ^^

[TehblackUchiha]

shiddddd im gonna do this as well except im gonna use fighter.

[Renvalt]

So now people just call these "No damage" boss rush vids like that? I can see Renvalt being flattered by this :0

I guess I'll give it a try myself later. This isnt hard at all, lol.

Flattered? Nah. If anything, it brings interesting stuff to the table. And besides, someone was gonna make this dare sooner or later - I thought, why don't I bring it up? Anything to shut that "Oh hunters are teh weakest class dey are so hardzorz" Emizel punk up.

At any rate, I wonder how many will end up contributing to this.

And FYI, can you not call it the "Renvalt Challenge"? That makes it sound like I've actually pulled that off, which I haven't.

[Zenobia]

Flattered? Nah. If anything, it brings interesting stuff to the table. And besides, someone was gonna make this dare sooner or later - I thought, why don't I bring it up? Anything to shut that "Oh hunters are teh weakest class dey are so hardzorz" Emizel punk up.

At any rate, I wonder how many will end up contributing to this.

And FYI, can you not call it the "Renvalt Challenge"? That makes it sound like I've actually pulled that off, which I haven't.

Actually it can be seen in 1 or 2 ways A challenge you yourself has asked all HU and FI everywhere just to see who can do it OR as you actually doing it yourself and clearing it then asking all HU/FI's to do it so it can be seen in both ways.

At any rate sry if it seems Miss-leading to you.

[Zenobia]

Dammit, Yuri. You're obviously widening the gap and driving our competition into overdrive. If you think I'm going to bend over and accept this you're wrong, but I will acknowledge you for keeping the flames of our love and rivalry lit with my absence.

OT: I loved watching this, and next time I log on I should attempt to solo each boss accordingly. I, however, will not be looking forward to Quartz. Never liked the fight, never will.

Bring it on Boya~

[gigawuts]

Flattered? Nah. If anything, it brings interesting stuff to the table. And besides, someone was gonna make this dare sooner or later - I thought, why don't I bring it up? Anything to shut that "Oh hunters are teh weakest class dey are so hardzorz" Emizel punk up.

At any rate, I wonder how many will end up contributing to this.

And FYI, can you not call it the "Renvalt Challenge"? That makes it sound like I've actually pulled that off, which I haven't.

If you have one single iframe with a weapon that deals 1 damage per hit you can beat every boss if you're skilled enough.

That does not put you on the level of forces and you know it.

"Possible" is not the same as "efficient" or "balanced."

[Zenobia]

So now people just call these "No damage" boss rush vids like that? I can see Renvalt being flattered by this :0

I guess I'll give it a try myself later. This isnt hard at all, lol.

Btw these no damage solo's vids are from a HU/FI perspective if you plan on doing this with a FO or RA i wont be surprised...lol no hard feelings.

[Skyly HUmar]

Btw these no damage solo's vids are from a HU/FI perspective if you plan on doing this with a FO or RA i wont be surprised...lol no hard feelings.

Yeah, lets leave it to the melees, unless youre doing something very very wrong this shouldnt be hard at all with mage or range.

[Renvalt]

If you have one single iframe with a weapon that deals 1 damage per hit you can beat every boss if you're skilled enough.

That does not put you on the level of forces and you know it.

"Possible" is not the same as "efficient" or "balanced."

How are Forces anything but weak and underpowered in the beginning? I mean, unless you're doing racial-gender-gear min-max overdrive, but even then, how could you expect Force to do anything substantial on its own in the first few levels?

Oh wait, you're not actually doing it on your own; you're getting your friends to power level you to 40 at which point you buy all your pre-epic gear, go rare hunting/falz'ing with them, and get everything you desire not by your own prowess.

Either that or you're hacking. But I've known you long enough to know that's not the case.

Btw, would you define "efficient" and "balanced"? I'm pretty sure I don't like the possible definition you'd end up with.

[yoshiblue]

In life, there're hunters. And then, there're MONSTER HUNTERS!

[gigawuts]

How are Forces anything but weak and underpowered in the beginning? I mean, unless you're doing racial-gender-gear min-max overdrive, but even then, how could you expect Force to do anything substantial on its own in the first few levels?

Oh wait, you're not actually doing it on your own; you're getting your friends to power level you to 40 at which point you buy all your pre-epic gear, go rare hunting/falz'ing with them, and get everything you desire not by your own prowess.

Either that or you're hacking. But I've known you long enough to know that's not the case.

Btw, would you define "efficient" and "balanced"? I'm pretty sure I don't like the possible definition you'd end up with.

...

Force is not bad early game, it's lackluster. The difference is one seems better to new players, whereas the other is actually better full stop.

And, even if force was bad in the early game, I would love to get a rational explanation for why that means hunter must be mediocre for everything after level five.

And no, when I was leveling force I did it largely solo. It does not take any level of skill to hold S and spam m2.

Efficiency and balance are dependent on relative abilities. HU exerts more effort for similar results and harsher penalties for mistakes. This is not efficient, nor is it balanced. It is utterly and completely unimpressive when a force does a zero damage run, yet it is melting some peoples' minds on this forum when a HU does a no damage run. That is evidence enough that there is a disparity between the classes that needs addressing. Someone doing these things does not make it balance, in fact the response highly suggests just the opposite.

[Renvalt]

...

Force is not bad early game, it's lackluster. The difference is one seems better to new players, whereas the other is actually better full stop.

And, even if force was bad in the early game, I would love to get a rational explanation for why that means hunter must be mediocre for everything after level five.

And no, when I was leveling force I did it largely solo. It does not take any level of skill to hold S and spam m2.

Efficiency and balance are dependent on relative abilities. HU exerts more effort for similar results and harsher penalties for mistakes. This is not efficient, nor is it balanced. It is utterly and completely unimpressive when a force does a zero damage run, yet it is melting some peoples' minds on this forum when a HU does a no damage run. That is evidence enough that there is a disparity between the classes that needs addressing. Someone doing these things does not make it balance, in fact the response highly suggests just the opposite.

Wait, harsher penalties? You realize Forces have HP equivalent to a stick of butter, right? Meaning if they get hit, it HURTS! Also, you can argue the whole shmeel of "Oh, but they can just heal themselves". Well durr, but that comes at the cost of forfeitting ones ability to use attack techs.

Hunters early on don't need to worry about that - their defenses more than make up for that. It's only once the damage gap starts growing in VH that Hunters now have to worry about that. Hunters are good in the early game, but later on need to compete heavily to keep up with Rangers.

FYI, I've played all three lines early on. You really DO get punished more as a Force simply because you're not an iron wall like Hunter is. Also, Forces are a lot more reliant on their PP bar as it is. And I'm pretty sure a noob Force isn't gonna have access to full Falz set right off the bat.

But wait - you, sir, don't give a shit about noobs, do you? After all, it's all about the Very Hards, right?

Hunter's not hard by any means; jackasses like you and Emizel just make it that way.

[Dextro]

Let the HUs have their fun, these 'challenges' are shifting all the hatred away from us FOs and channeling it into something productive :)

[gigawuts]

Wait, harsher penalties? You realize Forces have HP equivalent to a stick of butter, right? Meaning if they get hit, it HURTS! Also, you can argue the whole shmeel of "Oh, but they can just heal themselves". Well durr, but that comes at the cost of forfeitting ones ability to use attack techs.

Hunters early on don't need to worry about that - their defenses more than make up for that. It's only once the damage gap starts growing in VH that Hunters now have to worry about that. Hunters are good in the early game, but later on need to compete heavily to keep up with Rangers.

FYI, I've played all three lines early on. You really DO get punished more as a Force simply because you're not an iron wall like Hunter is. Also, Forces are a lot more reliant on their PP bar as it is. And I'm pretty sure a noob Force isn't gonna have access to full Falz set right off the bat.

But wait - you, sir, don't give a shit about noobs, do you? After all, it's all about the Very Hards, right?

Hunter's not hard by any means; jackasses like you and Emizel just make it that way.

You very blatantly do not play force.

Also, I'm not sure how you're managing to misunderstand the key term "relative." Something being pretty easy, and something else being even easier with more range, means the first something is out of whack.

Serious question, don't be insulted: Are you intentionally being daft, or do you really have this much difficulty grasping simple concepts?

[Renvalt]

Let the HUs have their fun, these 'challenges' are shifting all the hatred away from us FOs and channeling it into something productive :)

Well said. And personally, I don't see what's so great about FOs anyways.

Maybe if one did a FO only, no death Falz Elder, I could see giving them a bit of respect.

20k Meseta says you waste all your shocks in the beginning because half your team was filled with morons who improperly wasted all their shocks.

Or hell, let's have the Rangers not use their precious Rifles or Launchers - do no damage runs of Quartz, Banthers, Vardha, and Zeshy while not once switching weapons or using your pwecious Weak Buwwet.

Without Weak Bullet, half of y'all would be crying that "Ranger's too weak!".

@Gigawuts - The question I have for you is, are you being very imperialistic and arrogant, or are you simply suffering from an obscene case of "head stuck in his bugger" syndrome? Either way, what is your "definition" for playing Force, anyways? It's not like you play Force anyways, right?

Define for me how you're supposed to get all that PP you lose casting stuff in the early stages anyways.

[Skyly HUmar]

Let the HUs have their fun, these 'challenges' are shifting all the hatred away from us FOs and channeling it into something productive :)

Shut it and use resta wizard!

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Wait, harsher penalties? You realize Forces have HP equivalent to a stick of butter, right? Meaning if they get hit, it HURTS! Also, you can argue the whole shmeel of "Oh, but they can just heal themselves". Well durr, but that comes at the cost of forfeitting ones ability to use attack techs.

Hunters early on don't need to worry about that - their defenses more than make up for that. It's only once the damage gap starts growing in VH that Hunters now have to worry about that. Hunters are good in the early game, but later on need to compete heavily to keep up with Rangers.

FYI, I've played all three lines early on. You really DO get punished more as a Force simply because you're not an iron wall like Hunter is. Also, Forces are a lot more reliant on their PP bar as it is. And I'm pretty sure a noob Force isn't gonna have access to full Falz set right off the bat.

But wait - you, sir, don't give a shit about noobs, do you? After all, it's all about the Very Hards, right?

Hunter's not hard by any means; jackasses like you and Emizel just make it that way.

...yeah 780+ HP with 1000+ S def 900+ R def and 1000+ T def is totally getting one shotted >_>

You haven't been looking too closely at Fo gear and stats, have you?

EDIT:

and lolwut? remove everything a class offers and see how it holds up? sounds to me like you've got some issues with perspective.

[Soultrigger]

So now people just call these "No damage" boss rush vids like that? I can see Renvalt being flattered by this :0

I guess I'll give it a try myself later. This isnt hard at all, lol.

Not enough Deadly Archer to be considered a "rush". Then again, not really sure if people are limiting themselves to purely the HU side.

You should attempt no damage Elder Falz VH solo. That'd be a fun watch.

[Skyly HUmar]

Not enough Deadly Archer to be considered a "rush". Then again, not really sure if people are limiting themselves to purely the HU side.

You should attempt no damage Elder Falz VH solo. That'd be a fun watch.

I used some fi weps, but i dont use deadly archer much. Falz elder wouldnt be so bad to do if you could fight him whenever you want though.

[Renvalt]

...yeah 780+ HP with 1000+ S def 900+ R def and 1000+ T def is totally getting one shotted >_>

You haven't been looking too closely at Fo gear and stats, have you?

You do realize I was talking early game Normal/Hard, not endgame VH, right? People never listen when I say that "early game" doesn't mean the same thing that it does to you WoWnerds.

I mean, do you magically expect a newbie playing Force to have all those stats? I'd hope not, because then it means you've proved my point all along.

[gigawuts]

@Gigawuts - The question I have for you is, are you being very imperialistic and arrogant, or are you simply suffering from an obscene case of "head stuck in his bugger" syndrome? Either way, what is your "definition" for playing Force, anyways? It's not like you play Force anyways, right?

Define for me how you're supposed to get all that PP you lose casting stuff in the early stages anyways.

Are you even serious? Like, for real. What game are we talking about here? I just want to clarify that we're playing the same game, because either you're playing with your feet or you are really really really bad at video games.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

You do realize I was talking early game Normal/Hard, not endgame VH, right? People never listen when I say that "early game" doesn't mean the same thing that it does to you WoWnerds.

I mean, do you magically expect a newbie playing Force to have all those stats? I'd hope not, because then it means you've proved my point all along.

early game no one has high HP though. i dont know what you're talking about at this point. Force was busted from day one. As soon as I saw PP Charge revival I made a Bee line for it (obtained by lvl 14). Was wrecking everything ever since. Before that pp regen is as easy as melee or GS. melee being pretty safe since you can mirage escape through everything.

End game Forces get even more disgusting as they get access to absurd defensive stats and way too many PP regen options.

[gigawuts]

I think we need to just leave this one alone man.

Either he's trolling, and he got us, or he's serious...which is even worse.

[Resanoca]

You should attempt no damage Elder Falz VH solo. That'd be a fun watch.Elder Falz? Do you mean Dark Falz Elder or Falz Hunar?


I think we need to just leave this one alone man.

Either he's trolling, and he got us, or he's serious...which is even worse.
Considering other things he's done, I'd say he's serious. lol

[Zenobia]

Let the HUs have their fun, these 'challenges' are shifting all the hatred away from us FOs and channeling it into something productive :)

WHAT TIS AN FO? NOTHING BUT A MISERABLE PILE OF SECRETS!, BUT ENOUGH TALK HAVE AT CHU LOL!!!

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I think we need to just leave this one alone man.

Either he's trolling, and he got us, or he's serious...which is even worse.


I'll second that.

[Coatl]

Well said. And personally, I don't see what's so great about FOs anyways.


Well for one forces have the capability to put down anything within their line of sight within two techs. They also have zondeel, shifta and resta, which I don't think any AQ party should go without personally. The end game has always revolved around mob killing. Before it was multiparties, and today it is Advanced quests, and you lose too much utility not having a force with you, it's up to par with not having a weak bullet provider with you in how gimped your party will feel.



Or hell, let's have the Rangers not use their precious Rifles or Launchers - do no damage runs of Quartz, Banthers, Vardha, and Zeshy while not once switching weapons or using your pwecious Weak Buwwet.

Without Weak Bullet, half of y'all would be crying that "Ranger's too weak!".


Well of course. I don't think anyone would deny that rifle damage is complete crap without weak bullet.

[Renvalt]

early game no one has high HP though. i dont know what you're talking about at this point. Force was busted from day one. As soon as I saw PP Charge revival I made a Bee line for it. Was wrecking everything ever since.

End game Forces get even more disgusting as they get access to absurd defensive stats and way too many PP regen options.

Really? I'm still getting 3 shotted from all kinds of Darker swarms thrashing my way as a FOCast (when I'm surrounded and trying to stay alive) - and those guys (Cast Males) have a higher HP mod than the other two races by default anyways.

Also, PP Charge Revival isn't going to give you insta-refund on your PP usage - especially not when what you're killing isn't dying as fast as you'd like it to. If YOUR damage ain't cutting it, you honestly can't say that Force is overpowered in general, right?


Are you even serious? Like, for real. What game are we talking about here? I just want to clarify that we're playing the same game, because either you're playing with your feet or you are really really really bad at video games.

First off, lemme just say I think I was right when I assumed you were just an arrogant git. Moving on....

So you expect everyone to have access to all Level 10 Tech Discs, the highest level gear, and all that.... all at Level 1? Forces don't get that much damage subless at Level 1~30. Hell, I'm playing a FOCast right now and apparently surviving off the basic Matter Board shit ain't cutting it.

I'm failing to understand your illogical way of thinking, Giga. It just doesn't make sense how you expect a new player to have all these skills and stats when he just starts. It... bewilders me. Really, it does.

EDIT: So apparently Sociable and Gigawuts believe that if no one agrees with how they view the game, they should be ignored, shunned, hated, and they outright suck. Duly noted.

[gigawuts]

Nope Renvalt I see the error of my ways and concede every point you're making.

[Coatl]

Keep it classy.

So let me get this straight, this Renvalt challenge involves soloing every single boss as a HU/FI without taking a hit?
We should have more videos like this.

[Renvalt]

Nope Renvalt I see the error of my ways and concede every point you're making.

You really expect me to fall for that? You're dumber than you look.

I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm simply asking you to not bash others for not thinking the same way you do. Agree to disagree/Don't have to like it, but respect my opinion/etc. Y'know, that magical thing called "tolerance" of other people's opinions?

[Skyly HUmar]

WHAT TIS AN FO? NOTHING BUT A MISERABLE PILE OF SECRETS!, BUT ENOUGH TALK HAVE AT CHU LOL!!!

Be careful zeno, my team master is a lightning fo!

[Resanoca]

You really expect me to fall for that? You're dumber than you look.

I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm simply asking you to not bash others for not thinking the same way you do. Agree to disagree/Don't have to like it, but respect my opinion/etc. Y'know, that magical thing called "tolerance" of other people's opinions?I don't believe the intent was to get you to fall for anything. He said it because he was ending the discussion. lol So do what he did and just drop it.

[UnLucky]

What are you even talking about Renvault? If a hunter uses Fury Stance they are way more fragile than a force, especially in the beginning. Later gear options make them about equal if the hunter makes en effort to spec into defense.

The difference in HP, especially with optimal races both way, isn't even an issue early game. Nothing oneshots in Normal, even if you run naked. A force would have easier access to healing if the hunter is poor, but I don't think that is a game changer either way.

You can even get easy access to an area knockdown with gunslash. Early game is not a problem for any class.

As for these challenges, I'd like to see a Force do something like this without ever performing a full ME (canceling it is fine) and being a bit more close range oriented depending on optimal tech usage.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Really? I'm still getting 3 shotted from all kinds of Darker swarms thrashing my way as a FOCast (when I'm surrounded and trying to stay alive) - and those guys (Cast Males) have a higher HP mod than the other two races by default anyways.

Also, PP Charge Revival isn't going to give you insta-refund on your PP usage - especially not when what you're killing isn't dying as fast as you'd like it to. If YOUR damage ain't cutting it, you honestly can't say that Force is overpowered in general, right?



First off, lemme just say I think I was right when I assumed you were just an arrogant git. Moving on....

So you expect everyone to have access to all Level 10 Tech Discs, the highest level gear, and all that.... all at Level 1? Forces don't get that much damage subless at Level 1~30. Hell, I'm playing a FOCast right now and apparently surviving off the basic Matter Board shit ain't cutting it.

I'm failing to understand your illogical way of thinking, Giga. It just doesn't make sense how you expect a new player to have all these skills and stats when he just starts. It... bewilders me. Really, it does.

EDIT: So apparently Sociable and Gigawuts believe that if no one agrees with how they view the game, they should be ignored, shunned, hated, and they outright suck. Duly noted.


You didn't ask what you were doing wrong you called one a liar and a hacker and said the other they didn't know what they were talking about.

you're trying to play Fo like it's a Hu. you should be playing it more like Ra and stay away from stuff. if swarms or darkers are getting that close to you, you're doing something wrong. use foie for long distance multi targets and RA for single target super long range or for when you can't easy get line of sight. use gifore for when you do get surrounded. That's early game. Later on Grants and gigrants will offer solid AoE and single targeting options while late game Zonde and zondeel become extremely potent.

Also get your mag to lvl 30 ASAP. a tech based mag at 30 gets both PP restore J and cetus Proj which will make a huge difference.

Saying that a class that most everyone else knows to be busted is weaksauce kinda makes it hard to take anything you say seriously though.

[Resanoca]

You didn't ask what you were doing wrong you called one a liar and a hacker and the other they didn't know what they were talking about.I guess he calls everyone a hacker, huh? Told me I was a week or two ago. lol

[Zenobia]

What Gigawuts was saying as far as imbalances goes is the fact that while RA and FO potentially have the means in which to approach every situation HU doesn't.

We don't have that ONE best move that will serve us in any situation like FO and RA does true fax der aint no denying it either and it's that type of imbalance tha sega pretty much screwed up with cause face it sega sucks at balancing.

Also take Zonde for example its either bugged or just plain broken i can use that skill and it alone to demolish anything lol.

[Skyly HUmar]

What are you even talking about Renvault? If a hunter uses Fury Stance they are way more fragile than a force, especially in the beginning. Later gear options make them about equal if the hunter makes en effort to spec into defense.

The difference in HP, especially with optimal races both way, isn't even an issue early game. Nothing oneshots in Normal, even if you run naked. A force would have easier access to healing if the hunter is poor, but I don't think that is a game changer either way.

You can even get easy access to an area knockdown with gunslash. Early game is not a problem for any class.

As for these challenges, I'd like to see a Force do something like this without ever performing a full ME (canceling it is fine) and being a bit more close range oriented depending on optimal tech usage.

Thats still far in the fo's favor though. Unless the FO is using a gunslash on blade mode only and not using any ranged PAs and not casting any far off techs, i dont see how it would be as challenging. Unless ofcourse someone wanted to go for a melee fo with a court edge FO/HU.

Other than those two scenarios i keep seeing the fo running backwards while charging zonde then using mirage dodge.

[Zenobia]

Be careful zeno, my team master is a lightning fo!

ZENO DOES NOT FEAR ZEUS WAIT A MINUTEE OH SHIIIIII.......

[Skyly HUmar]

Keep it classy.

So let me get this straight, this Renvalt challenge involves soloing every single boss as a HU/FI without taking a hit?
We should have more videos like this.

HU/FI FI/HU work. As long as its all melee.

[UnLucky]

Thats still far in the fo's favor though. Unless the FO is using a gunslash on blade mode only and not using any ranged PAs and not casting any far off techs, i dont see how it would be as challenging. Unless ofcourse someone wanted to go for a melee fo with a court edge FO/HU.

Other than those two scenarios i keep seeing the fo running backwards while charging zonde then using mirage dodge.

Fair enough. I'm not trying to compare it to a melee run, just within its own class and to minimize the backpedaling. Personally, I've been trying to short mirage more often and use Safoie or some caster-centered AoE over auto-targets or Foie grazing.

[Skyly HUmar]

Fair enough. I'm not trying to compare it to a melee run, just within its own class and to minimize the backpedaling. Personally, I've been trying to short mirage more often and use Safoie or some caster-centered AoE over auto-targets or Foie grazing.

Thats an idea though lol. Id be fun watching a fo use something non zonde related ;p. And I agree, it would be fun to watch. Or even an old fassion non elder or infinity gu.

[Crysteon]

Btw these no damage solo's vids are from a HU/FI perspective if you plan on doing this with a FO or RA i wont be surprised...lol no hard feelings.

I'd do it as Fi/Hu because that's the playstyle I prefer myself. HU/FI and FI/HU is pretty much the same for me...because I mostly use multiclass weps anyway lol.

[Zenobia]

I'd do it as Fi/Hu because that's the playstyle I prefer myself. HU/FI and FI/HU is pretty much the same for me...because I mostly use multiclass weps anyway lol.

Heh alrighty then as they say don't talk about it be about it or Just Do It like Nike.

I eagerly await the upload more HU/FI or FI/HU pride coming~

[SakoHaruo]

I watch the whole thing, that was very nice! I come from DMC (not DmC) so I do feel like there's a few things that can make this even more of a challenge/stylish.

IMO, Just Guard would make things look a bit more stylish. Like.. If there was mod attacking you at the same time and you set a 'no killing mod with offense attacks' rule it would make this solo boss challenge extremely challenging. with enough attempts and the proper recording software anyone can solo a boss with no mod. Add some mod and a set of rules then things get interesting.

so...

- solo Nab 1 very hard

- you can only use just guard against the mod

- no killing mod with offense attacks

- no damage


now I understand that's a bit time consuming for a solo run as hunter, so I guess starting with Nab 2 second area Banther would be the better option. however, Nab 2 has less mod. but it could, at the very least, be a training ground, right? Also, a friend can help you progress through the quest, but make sure you tell them.. DO NOT ENTER THE BOSS AREA! Now who has the balls to accept this challenge from someone who never post on the PSOW forums? I do read the threads a lot tho. :-D

[Bellion]

If you're allowing double sabers in this challenge, then it's going to be easy mode. >_>
I'll use a mix of sword and double sabers for certain bosses, though.

[Z-0]

Well... he used Double Saber on Quartz and the Caters himself (and maybe more bosses but I didn't watch them all).

Although Doubles aren't necessarily faster than swords. My fastest Vol kill is with Sword (1:28 or so, but I took damage right near the end so I guess it doesn't count), and I haven't got anywhere near that with Sabers.

[EvilMag]

Now take the PSO2 Nuzlocke challenge

-You can only pick up the first weapon/unit you see in each area. Tough shit
-You die, you have to NPC the weapon you had equipped.
-No using player shops
-No using weapon and unit shops
-Run out of weapons and it's Game over. Delete your character and pay up AC for another if you want to try again.

Optional rules
Dudu clause- ITS GRINDIN TIME in other words its time for you to pay a visit to the biggest money scam ever, DUDU! Basically if he fails to grind your weapon just once, you have to NPC it.
Lonely clause- Time to play with those who you call "friends" what this implies is that you can play with your friends BUT if they die, you have to defriend them and blacklist them.

[Zenobia]

I watch the whole thing, that was very nice! I come from DMC (not DmC) so I do feel like there's a few things that can make this even more of a challenge/stylish.

IMO, Just Guard would make things look a bit more stylish. Like.. If there was mod attacking you at the same time and you set a 'no killing mod with offense attacks' rule it would make this solo boss challenge extremely challenging. with enough attempts and the proper recording software anyone can solo a boss with no mod. Add some mod and a set of rules then things get interesting.

so...

- solo Nab 1 very hard

- you can only use just guard against the mod

- no killing mod with offense attacks

- no damage


now I understand that's a bit time consuming for a solo run as hunter, so I guess starting with Nab 2 second area Banther would be the better option. however, Nab 2 has less mod. but it could, at the very least, be a training ground, right? Also, a friend can help you progress through the quest, but make sure you tell them.. DO NOT ENTER THE BOSS AREA! Now who has the balls to accept this challenge from someone who never post on the PSOW forums? I do read the threads a lot tho. :-D

Do you know the HP count of mobs and or bosses in VH do you?

Who in there right mind is gonna sit there and just use JG and only JG that whole time.

Also Hannibal alrdy said Just is nothing more than a Counter move and it wont also work as some moves from bosses can't be JG'ed.

Maybe im missing something cause your gonna have to explain this better .

[Zenobia]

Now take the PSO2 Nuzlocke challenge

-You can only pick up the first weapon/unit you see in each area. Tough shit
-You die, you have to NPC the weapon you had equipped.
-No using player shops
-No using weapon and unit shops
-Run out of weapons and it's Game over. Delete your character and pay up AC for another if you want to try again.

Optional rules
Dudu clause- ITS GRINDIN TIME in other words its time for you to pay a visit to the biggest money scam ever, DUDU! Basically if he fails to grind your weapon just once, you have to NPC it.
Lonely clause- Time to play with those who you call "friends" what this implies is that you can play with your friends BUT if they die, you have to defriend them and blacklist them.

LMFAO EVIL MAG SIR YOU MADE MY DAY I LOLED SO HARD~

[gigawuts]

With proper positioning, I believe the only damage you can't JG is from traps, poison water, etc.

The issue is the angle it comes from. JG only works if the attack comes from the front. If the hitbox collides from too high up or from the side, or obviously behind you, JG fails.

[Zenobia]

With proper positioning, I believe the only damage you can't JG is from traps, poison water, etc.

The issue is the angle it comes from. JG only works if the attack comes from the front. If the hitbox collides from too high up or from the side, or obviously behind you, JG fails.

Hmm so with that said are you saying that Zeshy's HAMMER STOMP IS JG'ABLE O.O?

I swear everytime i tried to jg that i got stunned locked maybe thats why?

This makes me wanna go test it out~

[SakoHaruo]

Do you know the HP count of mobs and or bosses in VH do you?

Who in there right mind is gonna sit there and just use JG and only JG that whole time.

Also Hannibal alrdy said Just is nothing more than a Counter move and it wont also work as some moves from bosses can't be JG'ed.

Maybe im missing something cause your gonna have to explain this better .

I'm sorry. what I was trying to say is you can attack the boss like you were doing in the video you uploaded, but you can't attack the mob with offense attacks, meaning the mod can only take damage from a just guard.

[gigawuts]

What, when he stomps the ground with his foot? I JG that constantly.

You can JG grabs, rapid fire barrages, quartz' grants rain, everything an enemy can dish out - if you get the angle right and the hit doesn't register from the wrong angle.

It's one of those things working against hunter that people tend to not realize if they don't actually play the class much.

[Skyly HUmar]

Hmm so with that said are you saying that Zeshy's HAMMER STOMP IS JG'ABLE O.O?

I swear everytime i tried to jg that i got stunned locked maybe thats why?

This makes me wanna go test it out~

Everything that any enemy does can be JGd. You cant reflect everything but you can guard it all.

[UnLucky]

I'm sorry. what I was trying to say is you can attack the boss like you were doing in the video you uploaded, but you can't attack the mob with offense attacks, meaning the mod can only take damage from a just guard.

what?

[SakoHaruo]

what?


sigh. here is a perfect example.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VCX4p3Iw3M

in the video, the player is using a guard mechanic to block attacks from an enemy that may not be the primary target. @ 0:28 Dante block an attack from behind him <-- in Nab 1 taco, this would be the mod attacking you from behind since the Banther is your primary target. you can avoid any damage from the mod by using just guard at the appropriate time.

[Zenobia]

I'm sorry. what I was trying to say is you can attack the boss like you were doing in the video you uploaded, but you can't attack the mob with offense attacks, meaning the mod can only take damage from a just guard.

Mobs don't appear in bosses during solos Sako sry to say but if you have seen all the solos just now not one mob was present and you can't compare DMC to PSO2...you just...cant ._..

I played all of the DMC titels and i know full well what you are saying but guessing from what you posted you never did boss solo's apparently....

@Giga well i'll be dayum wtf i guess it was the angles after all then LMFAO~

[gigawuts]

You can reflect everything dealt by actual enemies, it's just the enemy might not be close enough to get hit. Just Guarding does two things:
1. Make you invulnerable for a brief period of time
2. Damage everything within a small AOE around you

Go try just guarding a ranged attack while standing very close to another enemy. I've killed things by just guarding projectiles shot by something else. Good times.

[Zenobia]

You can reflect everything dealt by actual enemies, it's just the enemy might not be close enough to get hit. Just Guarding does two things:
1. Make you invulnerable for a brief period of time
2. Damage everything within a small AOE around you

Go try just guarding a ranged attack while standing very close to another enemy. I've killed things by just guarding projectiles shot by something else. Good times.

Yeah i know that it's just dayum i didn't know being at the right ANGLE factored into that no wonder he was able to stomp me those times the elevation....LOL

[gigawuts]

Yup. When in doubt, jump + guard. Good habit to have for partisans, anyway.

[UnLucky]

sigh. here is a perfect example.

DMC3 Agni And Rudra Fight DMD Dante Royal Guard - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VCX4p3Iw3M)

in the video, the player is using a guard mechanic to block attacks from an enemy that may not be the primary target. @ 0:28 Dante block an attack from behind him <-- in Nab 1 taco, this would be the mod attacking you from behind since the Banther is your primary target. you can avoid any damage from the mod by using just guard at the appropriate time.

OH you mean everything is fine for the boss itself, but adds cannot be attacked (other than with Just Guard reflect).

Yeah too bad there's none when solo. Try a no-damage run where four members teleport into the boss room but three of them drop party immediately? :-o

[Cyclon]

Yup. When in doubt, jump + guard. Good habit to have for partisans, anyway.
Funny you'd mention guard jumping with partisan, since I was precisely going to do the same:o

sigh. here is a perfect example.

DMC3 Agni And Rudra Fight DMD Dante Royal Guard - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VCX4p3Iw3M)

in the video, the player is using a guard mechanic to block attacks from an enemy that may not be the primary target. @ 0:28 Dante block an attack from behind him <-- in Nab 1 taco, this would be the mod attacking you from behind since the Banther is your primary target. you can avoid any damage from the mod by using just guard at the appropriate time.
Well, I see two problems with this. First, galf behavior is rather unpredictable, especially if they're off screen, and they produce no sound when they're about to attack, making it well... very, very difficult to see them coming from behind.
Second, just as people said, JG doesn't block attacks from behind, and JG cancelling doesn't let you change the direction your character is facing, making it impossible to block behind on reaction even if you're that good. Only thing I could see that includes JGing is by using partisans, jump cancelling, turning around in mid air and guarding. Problem is, that's easily beyond 10 frames of startup. Still, probably the best you'd get here. Otherwise, well daggers or knuckles w.actions could work, but few people use these.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Yup. When in doubt, jump + guard. Good habit to have for partisans, anyway.

Yeah you can just guard Vardha Cannon..it's pretty goofy.

Giant particle cannon - meet flat of my sword! It's made of met hats!!!!

[gigawuts]

Vardha's front cannons are actually really awkward to guard. Sometimes I pull off a perfect guard, but usually if all four are there I actually take around 71 damage but still guard everything else. I don't get knocked down, I get the just guard effect. If you guarded too late for one laser, all four would be too late to just guard. It couldn't work in reverse, either, since just guarding renders you invulnerable for too long for the damage to appear. If one hit you, you'd get bounced/instagibbed causing all of them to hit you.

All I can guess is that the lasers have an AOE on impact like zonde does, and if one barely goes past you on either side instead of colliding directly with you that you must get nicked by the AOE? I really don't know.

[Dextro]

Vardha's front cannons are actually really awkward to guard. Sometimes I pull off a perfect guard, but usually if all four are there I actually take around 71 damage but still guard everything else. I don't get knocked down, I get the just guard effect. If you guarded too late for one laser, all four would be too late to just guard. It couldn't work in reverse, either, since just guarding renders you invulnerable for too long for the damage to appear. If one hit you, you'd get bounced/instagibbed causing all of them to hit you.

All I can guess is that the lasers have an AOE on impact like zonde does, and if one barely goes past you on either side instead of colliding directly with you that you must get nicked by the AOE? I really don't know.

It has a weird lingering hitbox... if you haven't already experienced it, if you walk directly into Banther just after his swiping animation has finished, you still take damage.
Some attacks seem to go on well longer than their animations, it's pretty hard to show or explain, but you'll notice it now and again.

[gigawuts]

No, this wouldn't cause that. That's on a lot of attacks, it's either lag or just badly set up hitboxes. But this could not possibly cause that - the damage taken coincides EXACTLY with the just guard, which renders you invulnerable for a little bit. By the time you're vulnerable again the lasers are off and the damage number has been there for a while.

[Zenobia]

Yeah i know exactly what you mean a PRIME example of this is Transmizer and his wonky ass hit boxes some of those swipes you think you dodged actually hit you in the end its rly just that...weird

[Dextro]

Ahh no idea then, I'm not familiar enough with JG to start theory-crafting explanations!

[Skyly HUmar]

My way of dealing with vader's lazers is running to the side, jumping on it and breaking all the parts that matter.

[Zenobia]

My way of dealing with vader's lazers is running to the side, jumping on it and breaking all the parts that matter.

Pretty much this~

[Soultrigger]

Falz elder wouldnt be so bad to do if you could fight him whenever you want though.

But that's exactly why I think such an accomplishment would be noteworthy. With any of these bosses, you have an infinite number of tries so you just keep redoing them until you get a "perfect angle" of how you play. With Falz Elder (just to clarify, yes Elder), the stakes are high: you only have a 30 min timeframe to activate the quest, which means little room to actually mess up.

Not to mention the entire fight lasts well over 10 minutes, so you can't afford to be super safe: you literally have to go all out glass cannon to meet the EQ 20 min requirement (there's a few minutes to spare, but bottomline is you have to be aggressive, you're not gonna be able to afford sacrificing DPS for "style").

[Skyly HUmar]

But that's exactly why I think such an accomplishment would be noteworthy. With any of these bosses, you have an infinite number of tries so you just keep redoing them until you get a "perfect angle" of how you play. With Falz Elder (just to clarify, yes Elder), the stakes are high: you only have a 30 min timeframe to activate the quest, which means little room to actually mess up.

Not to mention the entire fight lasts well over 10 minutes, so you can't afford to be super safe: you literally have to go all out glass cannon to meet the EQ 20 min requirement (there's a few minutes to spare, but bottomline is you have to be aggressive, you're not gonna be able to afford sacrificing DPS for "style").

i solod it in 13-14 min a while back, but i wasnt going for no damage, if the chance ever comes up ill give it a shot.

[Soultrigger]

Welp, good luck. The JG timing tends to be wonky with Falz, sometimes the window is very lenient, other times JG won't register even when you know you got the timing right.

I think I'll give the challenge a shot myself, but yea "when the chance comes up" is the issue.

inb4 people call it the Soultrigger challenge. (please don't)

[gigawuts]

Welp, good luck. The JG timing tends to be wonky with Falz, sometimes the window is very lenient, other times JG won't register even when you know you got the timing right.

I think I'll give the challenge a shot myself, but yea "when the chance comes up" is the issue.

inb4 people call it the Soultrigger challenge. (please don't)

Just guarding the hands train :disapprove:

[Seraphus]

No damage Falz Elder solo doesn't seem that much more difficult than some of the other bosses. In fact, it may be easier than some bosses. Incoming Arms, though, definitely seems more of a challenge. The arm train isn't that bad to avoid, but having to keep track of 4 arms, lasers, things falling from the sky, and meatballs getting thrown at you seems more like a real challenge.

[gigawuts]

I must be the only person here who blatantly walks into attacks specifically because just guarding is fun.

Sure, you can avoid attacks. But you can also use just guard!

[Rien]

You can always dash right into them. It's the same thing as JG, without the fancy sound effect.

[gigawuts]

But then what's the point? If I can't deal a few hundred damage or get a fancy sound effect why am I even playing hunter?

[Seraphus]

You can always dash right into them. It's the same thing as JG, without the fancy sound effect.

This. JG looks way too lenient to me.

[Crysteon]

EDIT: Derp....okay, here's another upload, lol. I'm deeply sorry for the mistake I commited, so I decided to replace Quartz for a Crys Draal.

I gotta say there's still a LOT of room for improvement, since I didnt apply any kind of optimal strategies to do every battle faster.

Btw, if you see I took damage on something and I didnt notice it by pasting all parts and editing stuff, please tell me. Next time, I promise I'll make sure to triple check stuff like this before publishing anything =_=

Anyway, enjoy:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiIp8j_oUGQ

[Bellion]

Failed to upload this video 3 times. ._.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMcIo4onssY

Edit: Warning, my video has terrible quality. Oh, and nice Crys Draal BGM, Crysteon. That is some coincidence that I would use the same for Quartz.

[SakoHaruo]

Well, I see two problems with this. First, galf behavior is rather unpredictable, especially if they're off screen, and they produce no sound when they're about to attack, making it well... very, very difficult to see them coming from behind.
Second, just as people said, JG doesn't block attacks from behind, and JG cancelling doesn't let you change the direction your character is facing, making it impossible to block behind on reaction even if you're that good. Only thing I could see that includes JGing is by using partisans, jump cancelling, turning around in mid air and guarding. Problem is, that's easily beyond 10 frames of startup. Still, probably the best you'd get here. Otherwise, well daggers or knuckles w.actions could work, but few people use these.

I was just using that video to explain my Nab1/JG challenge to Unlucky cause he didn't understand (well, he knew what I was talking about, he just had a little brain fart, haha) how my challenge work.

anyway, I'm glad you think my challenge is very difficult since that was my goal in the first place. Only the best of the best would be able to pull this off. I only tried it once, got hit by berserker slash.. Fission Mailed :argh:

[Skyly HUmar]

Theres an idea, lets post all the vids on this thread. If you could put them all on page 1 zeno thad be great.

And props to you two for completing it as well. Now i see why DAx3 is so popular lol.

[Zenobia]

Theres an idea, lets post all the vids on this thread. If you could put them all on page 1 zeno thad be great.

And props to you two for completing it as well. Now i see why DAx3 is so popular lol.

Np Sky i will move all the vids to the first page as this page gets updated~

GZ you 2 for pulling this off its nice to see pppl showing others that we can indeed hang in der. anyway gonna update first post acknowledged all who soloed HU/FI or FI/HU wise

[Bellion]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4983/pso20130306094830001.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Here are my weapons if anyone is curious. Assume my skill tree is the usual multipliers stuff. Striking classes are definitely my worst and I've never hit the level caps for either HU or FI. >_>

[Zenobia]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4983/pso20130306094830001.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Here are my weapons if anyone is curious. Assume my skill tree is the usual multipliers stuff. Striking classes are definitely my worst and I've never hit the level caps for either HU or FI. >_>

Heh don't worry about it to say you weren't even capped you did it that is something to be proud of~

[Zyrusticae]

I'll be trying this, though I've never done any video recording or anything like that before. Should be interesting.

Unsurprisingly, I'm having a ton of trouble with the banshee/banther combo, but a lot of that is just learning pains (like I had with fighting Quartz). I'll get it down eventually...

[Zenobia]

I'll be trying this, though I've never done any video recording or anything like that before. Should be interesting.

Unsurprisingly, I'm having a ton of trouble with the banshee/banther combo, but a lot of that is just learning pains (like I had with fighting Quartz). I'll get it down eventually...

Np tbh I can't wait to see Teranu in action ive played with you alot before and your FO so yeah about that.

Gawd yeah both banshee and banther are a pain still and arguably the still the most difficult boss in there for now.

Good luck Zyrusticae give em hell!~

[TehblackUchiha]

Took me 3 days to finally get this video up. 1 day to fight the bosses and render the video overnight. A failed upload the 2nd day :argh:, then it finally uploaded today. I played the boss rush safe since recording with fraps was extremly laggy as it is. I had to even fight some bosses over alot since the game became unplayable after some time. I did have to cut fraps off for 2 seconds and turn it back on in the zeshy fight though. It's finally uploaded though 8-) and i also added a little color boost, also had to switch to setting 1 after the rockbear fight because of lag. Should be avalible in 720p after some time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkmhpeMdYp0

[Bellion]

Can't watch this in 'Murica.

[TehblackUchiha]

Can't watch this in 'Murica.

lol i had to acknowledge there was third party content in the video. Now try it.

[Shadowth117]

Can't watch this in 'Murica.

This^

[TehblackUchiha]

looks like i might have to reupload >_>

Edit: Yup gotta re-render and replace 3 songs... then re-upload...

Edit 2: actually i might be able to dispute this hopefully this works

[TehblackUchiha]

It's fixed

[Bellion]

Yep, good job.

[mommy_cornelia]

Here is my vid~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO9cZpmjb7Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO9cZpmjb7Q

[Blackheart521]

I was hoping when I first saw your name in this thread that you did it WL only Cornelia ^^ Nice job

[mommy_cornelia]

I was hoping when I first saw your name in this thread that you did it WL only Cornelia ^^ Nice job

Heheh, of course ^_^
and thank you :3

[Skyly HUmar]

Hats off to the 2 newest ones... wait ill keep my hat on though, havnt taken it off since obt.

[Zyrusticae]

Teranu's face was locked into this disapproving expression after I failed to perfect run Vol Dragon for the second time in a row.
[spoiler-box]https://cxvqtw.bn1.livefilestore.com/y1p9HbogO6HE0lVwKMhdsKHymw2Zg7P9WNv-3iPmiFu-DSGVtkGquXkXHlk9q5-8x7iiENyPlQASYs/pso20130309_014154_045.jpg?psid=1[/spoiler-box]
I really am terrible at this game.

So far I've only managed to do rockbear and caterdran, and I've attempted banther about a dozen times now (though I HAVE managed to get pretty damn close at times). At the rate I'm going it'll be a week before I've got everyone down...

Oh, but it's worth noting that I'm attempting a partizan-only, no-JG run, so I guess I kind of brought this upon myself. Many of these bosses are really tremendously easier with Just Guard...

[mommy_cornelia]

Hats off to the 2 newest ones... wait ill keep my hat on though, havnt taken it off since obt.

Well, if that is the case, you better go wash your hair xD
J/K x3

[Skyly HUmar]

Zyr: Dont limit yourself to no jg lol, partisan shines in dodging but limiting yourself just makes things harder, go all out and show us what you got.

Corry: thats what the holes on the sides are for, shampoo lol.

[Kondibon]

limiting yourself just makes things harder

I think that's the point. x:

[Skyly HUmar]

I think that's the point. x:

That is the point, but lowering your preformance for a gimick can lead to some setbacks.

If youre dead set on it more power to ya, but imo the video would be more enjoyyable if you use all of your tools.

but hell thats just me.

[UnLucky]

pro Fi/Hu no damage speedrun using all tools available

switches to Gu/Ra ten seconds in

[Zenobia]

Alright alright this is awesome GZ Cornelia and Uchiha on your victories as usual i figured Cornelia did an all WL solo I will update first acknowledging them.

@Everyone the only reason why i did a no JG run was because i wanted to limit myself knowing how hard as hell it would be that explains my long azz vid that i do not regret at all but some ppl like pointing out that it took me 40min bla bla bla and what not, but i guess they didint read that i didn't use JG.

ANYWAY!....Yeah if you wanna do a no JG run more power to ya but ,don't push yourself it can get rather aggravating once you try this against the banther....LOL!

[Lorne]

These are great! I would very much like to see a partizan only run too though. ^^

[Zyrusticae]

Wow, I cannot BELIEVE this shit!

I don't remember Gwanada EVER being this difficult! Half his fucking "attacks" DON'T EVEN LOOK LIKE ATTACKS! I'M GETTING HIT BY SHIT THAT I CAN'T EVEN SEE COMING WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUCK

Seriously, what the FUCK is with his stupid head-turn "attack"? HE'S JUST TURNING, HOW IS HE EVEN DOING DAMAGE?! And there's no goddamn tell that he's going to do it, so I can't even dodge it on reaction! WHAT THE HELL, MAN!?

This is so stupid. This is one of the easiest fucking bosses in the entire goddamn game, and he's giving me THIS much trouble?! WHAT THE HELL!? HOW IS THIS HAPPENING!?

I am beside myself with rage right now. This is just... no fucking way. What the hell, man?!

[gigawuts]

Wow, I cannot BELIEVE this shit!

I don't remember Gwanada EVER being this difficult! Half his fucking "attacks" DON'T EVEN LOOK LIKE ATTACKS! I'M GETTING HIT BY SHIT THAT I CAN'T EVEN SEE COMING WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUCK

Seriously, what the FUCK is with his stupid head-turn "attack"? HE'S JUST TURNING, HOW IS HE EVEN DOING DAMAGE?! And there's no goddamn tell that he's going to do it, so I can't even dodge it on reaction! WHAT THE HELL, MAN!?

This is so stupid. This is one of the easiest fucking bosses in the entire goddamn game, and he's giving me THIS much trouble?! WHAT THE HELL!? HOW IS THIS HAPPENING!?

I am beside myself with rage right now. This is just... no fucking way. What the hell, man?!

Don't worry, melee has the best defensive options in the game you should be fine.

[Shakuri]

rage

Going to assume you're a Force main if you're this bad at melee.

[Zyrusticae]

You might have missed the part where I'm on a no-JG run.

But that doesn't matter, because this shit is stupid. Like the attack frames on his pincer attack start WELL before the pincer actually physically touches me, WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT SHIT?! IT MAKES NO GODDAMN SENSE!

I can't BELIEVE Vol Dragon gave me less trouble than this asshole. WHY?! HOW?!

[Shakuri]

why would you need to JG when using partisan

[gigawuts]

So use JG.

Although I'm not sure how it would be easier with partisan.

[The Walrus]

I really don't understand how one can have so much trouble with Gwanahda. Especially with the range a Partisan has.

[Zyrusticae]

I DON'T GET IT EITHER. IT MAKES NO GODDAMN SENSE.

I think I need to try this again with a cool head, because I'm just making stupid mistakes at this point. Fuck's sake.

[The Walrus]

Just go kill Wolga-kun or something. He's easy enough.

[gigawuts]

Stop limiting yourself from using JG.

It should be much easier because HU's weaknesses are all offset by having JG, the best defensive ability in the game.

[Zyrusticae]

Wow, Giga, would you please shut up? I never said HU's weaknesses are all offset by JG and your mocking bullshit is completely unwarranted when I'm already fucking pissed as it is.

And apparently all that venting actually helped, because I finally killed the fucking bastard without taking a scratch. How about that.

[NoiseHERO]

L-

Know what... too easy.

You're asking to be mocked.

[Resanoca]

/doesn't use JG. ...or even have it.

[Zyrusticae]

L-

Know what... too easy.

You're asking to be mocked.
This is a perfect example of a completely useless, noncontributing post, which is actually exemplary of at least half the shit you leave sitting around all over the forum. It smells, by the way.

It's also a wonder that the first thing people do when confronted with someone who is angry is... try to provoke him?

You are all douchebags, each and every last one of you.

[Blackheart521]

/doesn't use JG. ...or even have it.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/15753897.jpg

[Resanoca]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/15753897.jpgB-but... Dodging is basically the same as JG. Its all timing. D:

[Zyrusticae]

B-but... Dodging is basically the same as JG. Its all timing. D:
Yes. Exactly.

Hence all my problems are essentially a player error issue, with a few exceptions (banther roar cannot be dodged, likewise with quartz dragon's rain from the sky). Mind you, those exceptions are pretty big...

[gigawuts]

Wow, Giga, would you please shut up? I never said HU's weaknesses are all offset by JG and your mocking bullshit is completely unwarranted when I'm already fucking pissed as it is.

And apparently all that venting actually helped, because I finally killed the fucking bastard without taking a scratch. How about that.

Oh, no malice intended, just find it interesting how quickly you change your tune once you stop talking about the game and start actually playing it.


B-but... Dodging is basically the same as JG. Its all timing. D:

Certain things can't be dodge canceled, and certain things can't be guard canceled. Just Guard is also better for repeated strike attacks, which will hit you as soon as you exit a dodge (preventing a second dodge) but will NOT prevent a second just guard (such as quartz' grants rain). Try to step cancel over end, now try to guard cancel non-charging partisan PA's (well, jump+guard works just fine, buuuuut...actually I guess it's like all melee weapons were designed with guarding in mind, huh weird).

edit: Banther roar can be dodged, I've done it numerous times.

[Resanoca]

Certain things can't be dodge canceled, and certain things can't be guard canceled. Just Guard is also better for repeated strike attacks, which will hit you as soon as you exit a dodge (preventing a second dodge) but will NOT prevent a second just guard (such as quartz' grants rain). Try to step cancel over end, now try to guard cancel non-charging partisan PA's (well, jump+guard works just fine, buuuuut...actually I guess it's like all melee weapons were designed with guarding in mind, huh weird).

edit: Banther roar can be dodged, I've done it numerous times.I can understand this, but...I can't think of many boss attacks(or any. May need more examples) like Quartz's rain that can't be dodged. Even with that said, why would I want to JG that? Quartz telegraphs that attack. So what I'd do is get out of the way and as he does that, charge a JA'd deadly archer and nail him with it as soon as he's done.

Almost every boss attack can be dodged if you have the correct timing or simply moving out of the range of it.

Also, yes. Banther roar can be dodged.

[Zyrusticae]

Oh, no malice intended, just find it interesting how quickly you change your tune once you stop talking about the game and start actually playing it.
Actually, no, I have not changed my tune at all.

I suck at this game. It's true, absolutely, I suck at it.

I still believe hunter has the best defensive options in the game. I'm just really bad at using them. I also do not believe that they make up for their other weaknesses, merely that defense is NOT a part of those weaknesses (which are mobility and their rather weak skill tree options relative to other classes, in that order).


edit: Banther roar can be dodged, I've done it numerous times.
Oh, really? I assumed that it would just hit you as soon as you came out of the dodge since it'll hit you if you walk into it while it's still under way.

I'm going to try this now.


I can understand this, but...I can't think of many boss attacks(or any. May need more examples) like Quartz's rain that can't be dodged. Even with that said, why would I want to JG that? Quartz telegraphs that attack. So what I'd do is get out of the way and as he does that, charge a JA'd deadly archer and nail him with it as soon as he's done.
I think charge attacks (as in a boss physically running at you) fall under attacks that cannot be dodged, only guarded, but I've never tried dodging into a charging boss to find out (I just move out of the way).

[gigawuts]

Actually, no, I have not changed my tune at all.

I suck at this game. It's true, absolutely, I suck at it.

I still believe hunter has the best defensive options in the game. I'm just really bad at using them. I also do not believe that they make up for their other weaknesses, merely that defense is NOT a part of those weaknesses (which are mobility and their rather weak skill tree options relative to other classes, in that order). Right, I'm going to say this as nicely, but straightforward, as I possibly can.

If you think you're bad, and openly admit it, do not talk about how the game is balanced. Theory is NOT reality. How you think it appears IS NOT REALITY. This is true FOR GOOD PLAYERS who don't do certain aspects enough. I have a preconception of ranger gameplay, but I don't play ranger a lot, and when I do I don't do so with any particular skill. I intentionally don't talk about ranger balance specifically because of this - I cannot make a statement about someone playing on a competent level. I can't even comment on what happens in videos because I don't have any context to compare it to. Melee and techs? Yeah, I play those a lot.

Unless you're skilled enough to actually evaluate things, you can't actually evaluate them. This is just how things work. You don't get to say "This is how things work, I just can't do them." Unless you can apply theory, you don't actually know how things work.

Like it or not, the reality is that yes, a level of skill is required to be able to discuss these things. You also need to have practical knowledge about actual gameplay, which is generally garnered by...playing it enough to become skilled. One implies the other, but playing and reading a lot doesn't necessarily imply skill.

It doesn't mean not being good with a class is an emphatically bad thing, it just means you really shouldn't try to talk about how things work when you aren't even able to demonstrate a proof of concept.


Oh, really? I assumed that it would just hit you as soon as you came out of the dodge since it'll hit you if you walk into it while it's still under way.

I'm going to try this now.


I think charge attacks (as in a boss physically running at you) fall under attacks that cannot be dodged, only guarded, but I've never tried dodging into a charging boss to find out (I just move out of the way).

Yes, it is a hitbox that extends out and persists. Like all persisting individual hitbox, if it registers as connecting with you it will not connect again. That is, you can get hit by it and not get hit again, correct? Dodging and guarding work the same way - it's just dodging and guarding prevent you from taking the damage. Conversely, being hit by grants rain once WILL NOT block the following hits, because they're entirely separate hitboxes/attacks/etc.
I can understand this, but...I can't think of many boss attacks(or any. May need more examples) like Quartz's rain that can't be dodged. Even with that said, why would I want to JG that? Quartz telegraphs that attack. So what I'd do is get out of the way and as he does that, charge a JA'd deadly archer and nail him with it as soon as he's done.

Almost every boss attack can be dodged if you have the correct timing or simply moving out of the range of it.

Also, yes. Banther roar can be dodged.

It's not solely about avoiding the damage. It's about avoiding the damage without having to drop what you're doing. This is what makes all these zero damage videos funny - anybody can hold the joystick to run away from a boss, it takes actual skill and knowledge to stay in its face full time. But, then there's also the luck factor of what attacks it'll use and how open that leaves the boss, and whether or not another move would have hit you had it actually used it.

Really, zero damage runs in this game are...not impressive, with the exception of a couple bosses that is. This game isn't hard. It's just improperly balanced. We have two different levels of easy. Hunter has to put up with more BS than forces and rangers, but that doesn't make it actually difficult. What we have is purely artificial difficulty. No amount of practice will help you survive X or Y zero tell move better - running away will. The challenge isn't in reflexes half the time, it's in knowing where to not be for most of its attacks. Not all, most. There's a lot of luck in that. Many tells are completely off screen or impossible to react to due to an inability to cancel certain attack animations. That means players will just use short attacks to make things easier. Some bosses have 6 hour tell animations, other bosses will smash your face in with zero tell, others will have similar or identical tells for multiple moves. This is why I consider speedruns more impressive than anything else.

If anything, we should have a "no healing speed run with only red weapons" challenge. The variety of moves that lock you into place long enough for a boss to go from a standing state to showing its tell to already attacking, while you're still in the animation, is hysterical. That means players are GOING to get hit in an otherwise GREAT run.

[EvilMag]

No items, Fox only. Final Destination challenge.

[supersonix9]

No items, Fox only. Final Destination challenge.

where else have I heard this....

[Resanoca]

It's not solely about avoiding the damage. It's about avoiding the damage without having to drop what you're doing. This is what makes all these zero damage videos funny - anybody can hold the joystick to run away from a boss, it takes actual skill and knowledge to stay in its face full time. But, then there's also the luck factor of what attacks it'll use and how open that leaves the boss, and whether or not another move would have hit you had it actually used it.
But here's the thing... I'm not implying run away from all attacks. Just Quartz. As he has the only move you cannot dodge your way out of. But even then, during the wait span I have, I could throw sonic arrows and then charge a DA up and nail him. So...I don't consider much or any time lost. Every other boss move can be dodged though. So to me, I don't see a point getting something just for a single move in this game.

NOW, if Sega releases A LOT more moves that cannot be dodged, then yeah, fuck me. Right now? Its just a single move. Which you could still make up lost time during it regardless.

Either way, it just comes down to play style. I'm not going say one way is better since it just has to do with how you handle things best. One reason I prefer dodge over guard is because of step attack. It allows me to prep a JA PA as I'm dodging.


Edit: One other thing. Making a challenge for no damage boss kill is kind of stupid. Solely because you either have to JG or dodge. If you know how, then it'll be no issue. If you don't? You can fix that by learning their movements after a few tries. Either way, almost anyone could do it... So it'd be more interesting to do it like what both you and Cry said. Make it more of a speed run.

[gigawuts]

It comes down to play style and weapon selection. Sword and WL normal attacks cannot be step canceled. If you use these two weapons a LOT, just guard is phenomenally useful because of that alone.

For me, JG is itself the reward. It's satisfying and fun to do. I hurt enemies by just standing there and get a neat animation for it. I stop several enemies from finishing their attacks, and can kill enemies with it too. Good times. I just killed a quartz with just guard today.

[Skyly HUmar]

It comes down to play style and weapon selection. Sword and WL normal attacks cannot be step canceled. If you use these two weapons a LOT, just guard is phenomenally useful because of that alone.

For me, JG is itself the reward. It's satisfying and fun to do. I hurt enemies by just standing there and get a neat animation for it. I stop several enemies from finishing their attacks, and can kill enemies with it too. Good times. I just killed a quartz with just guard today.

Id also sat JG is better because if you also have jc you can launch a nice JA PA after avoiding a hit rather than using step attack then a JA PA.

[Resanoca]

It comes down to play style and weapon selection. Sword and WL normal attacks cannot be step canceled. If you use these two weapons a LOT, just guard is phenomenally useful because of that alone.

For me, JG is itself the reward. It's satisfying and fun to do. I hurt enemies by just standing there and get a neat animation for it. I stop several enemies from finishing their attacks, and can kill enemies with it too. Good times. I just killed a quartz with just guard today.I only really use swords when it comes to groups. WL...I've never cared for them at all. So yeah, I can understand.


Also, I recall you mentioning a JG Quartz kill in the past. lol

[gigawuts]

Yeah, I frequently run directly in front of boss attacks specifically to just guard them, and carry a HU weapon on me at all times as a FI/HU just to guard attacks in between fighter weapon usage.

Quartz is hands down the most fun to do because you might even break his nose (I think, never had it break to JG damage myself), but bonus points for falz elder, falz hunar, and katadran. The others have finicky hitboxes and can be a real bitch to time right on bad days. Also, rockbears. My first time JGing was on a rockbear, timed it perfectly with his grab, and he fell over dead. It took me a minute to realize he'd died to JG damage. I've loved it ever since.

[Resanoca]

Quartz is hands down the most fun to do because you might even break his nose.Why are you hitting yourself? That's all that comes to mind.

As for Rockbear, his grab attack is his death warrant. lol

[Zyrusticae]

Right, I'm going to say this as nicely, but straightforward, as I possibly can.

If you think you're bad, and openly admit it, do not talk about how the game is balanced. Theory is NOT reality. How you think it appears IS NOT REALITY. This is true FOR GOOD PLAYERS who don't do certain aspects enough. I have a preconception of ranger gameplay, but I don't play ranger a lot, and when I do I don't do so with any particular skill. I intentionally don't talk about ranger balance specifically because of this - I cannot make a statement about someone playing on a competent level. I can't even comment on what happens in videos because I don't have any context to compare it to. Melee and techs? Yeah, I play those a lot.

Unless you're skilled enough to actually evaluate things, you can't actually evaluate them. This is just how things work. You don't get to say "This is how things work, I just can't do them." Unless you can apply theory, you don't actually know how things work.

Like it or not, the reality is that yes, a level of skill is required to be able to discuss these things. You also need to have practical knowledge about actual gameplay, which is generally garnered by...playing it enough to become skilled. One implies the other, but playing and reading a lot doesn't necessarily imply skill.

It doesn't mean not being good with a class is an emphatically bad thing, it just means you really shouldn't try to talk about how things work when you aren't even able to demonstrate a proof of concept.

But this is wrong.

We have plenty of videos out there we can use as demonstrations. It isn't necessary for a player to put things into practice on their own when there are others who can do so just fine, and put their results out there for the world to see. Not to mention this is a cooperative game and you can party with others to see how they perform alongside you.

There are tons of game designers and engineers out there who are terrible at the games they make, yet their games are wildly successful (Starcraft and League of Legends both come to mind here in particular). How do they balance their games? Simple - by watching others play. They don't need to be that skilled themselves as long as they can watch how others perform and use that to perform detailed analysis. They also have access to detailed metrics (such as how often a particular skill is used across the player base, that sort of thing) that can help them make informed decisions.

I might be bad at the game (or more specifically, bad at soloing bosses), but I assure you it is almost entirely a reflex/reaction problem, not an analytical one. I hit dodge or fail to hit dodge frequently at the wrong times, but that doesn't suddenly mean I can't notice when another class is having an easier time applying damage or simply out-damaging me outright with similar gear, or crunch numbers (and let's face it - skill trees are appallingly simple, such to the point that anyone with a basic knowledge of arithmetic can tell when things are out of whack).

There are some things that you really can't comment on without at least some actual experience, but I have actual experience. In fact, as far as I can tell, the only area my skill level would actually come into play is in discussing strategies, which I am not doing here. Of course I would expect someone who is making a guide or trying to assist others would actually be skilled at the game. Otherwise, basic analysis doesn't require you to be excellent at expertly timing dodges - and for that matter, the assumption that someone who can't just time every dodge perfectly is unqualified to speak at all about game balance is patently absurd. They can speak about game balance from their perspective, which is the perspective of possibly an average unskilled player, which is itself valid because it is the perspective of a fair chunk of the player base (only a small percentage even post on these boards in the first place).

If you balanced a game exclusively based on the thoughts and perspectives of the top-end, most highly skilled players, you'd have a game that only those players could enjoy. :-?



It's not solely about avoiding the damage. It's about avoiding the damage without having to drop what you're doing. This is what makes all these zero damage videos funny - anybody can hold the joystick to run away from a boss, it takes actual skill and knowledge to stay in its face full time. But, then there's also the luck factor of what attacks it'll use and how open that leaves the boss, and whether or not another move would have hit you had it actually used it.

Really, zero damage runs in this game are...not impressive, with the exception of a couple bosses that is. This game isn't hard. It's just improperly balanced. We have two different levels of easy. Hunter has to put up with more BS than forces and rangers, but that doesn't make it actually difficult. What we have is purely artificial difficulty. No amount of practice will help you survive X or Y zero tell move better - running away will. The challenge isn't in reflexes half the time, it's in knowing where to not be for most of its attacks. Not all, most. There's a lot of luck in that. Many tells are completely off screen or impossible to react to due to an inability to cancel certain attack animations. That means players will just use short attacks to make things easier. Some bosses have 6 hour tell animations, other bosses will smash your face in with zero tell, others will have similar or identical tells for multiple moves. This is why I consider speedruns more impressive than anything else.

If anything, we should have a "no healing speed run with only red weapons" challenge. The variety of moves that lock you into place long enough for a boss to go from a standing state to showing its tell to already attacking, while you're still in the animation, is hysterical. That means players are GOING to get hit in an otherwise GREAT run.I agree that many bosses are lacking in tells (hell, I was just ranting about how bad Gwanada's are), but it doesn't make it any less impressive to me to see players taking down bosses quickly without receiving any in return. Even for the attacks that do have obvious tells, it takes a lot of concentration to consistently avoid taking hits while dealing out damage, and the pressure that even a single bit of damage ends your run is considerable.

And how many of these videos don't already qualify as speed runs? Isn't the whole point to take down the boss in a reasonable amount of time while also not taking any damage in the process? How would a dedicated speedrun be any different?

[gigawuts]

Lol yes you know as much about this game as the devs.

No, I'm really not going to do this.

[NoiseHERO]

This is a perfect example of a completely useless, noncontributing post, which is actually exemplary of at least half the shit you leave sitting around all over the forum. It smells, by the way.

It's also a wonder that the first thing people do when confronted with someone who is angry is... try to provoke him?

You are all douchebags, each and every last one of you.

Do tell, go into detail.

On how you still post here till you start screaming with your keyboard. :D

[Zyrusticae]

Lol yes you know as much about this game as the devs.

No, I'm really not going to do this.
I like how you latch onto a single point as though it debunks my entire argument, which was that there are multitudinous factors that play into whether or not someone is actually qualified to speak about game balance, or that the highest-end players are not the only players whose opinions are valid and worth considering, or that there are many aspects of game balance that are simply straight math and do not require an ounce of player skill to analyze.

Yep, you totally threw my argument into the ditches right there.

[gigawuts]

No, I didn't do anything to your argument. That was the point.

If your next step is to say that since I'm not arguing you must be right, then I clearly made the right decision too.

[Zyrusticae]

No, I am just going to point out how infuriatingly asinine some people can be, and ponder again as to just why the hell I am still here on these boards responding to posters who I don't have the slightest ounce of respect for.

Clearly, I am getting something out of this, but I can't articulate what.

Oh, wait. I never invited you here. I'm just responding because I'm a stubborn ass. That sounds about right.

I am now talking to myself. You should all feel uncomfortable at this point, and if not, you may already be lost.

[gigawuts]

Just don't hurt yourself dude, nobody wants that.

[Resanoca]

Lol yes you know as much about this game as the devs.

No, I'm really not going to do this.Somehow, after seeing how they all play their own game, I feel that to be an insult. D:

[Zyrusticae]

So the tell for De Malmoth's charge looks almost identical to the tell they use for jumping back.

That's... interesting.

[Zenobia]

Wow i see a lot has happened in this thread.....

We good now?

[gigawuts]

We're getting better as our points are made for us by people who previously disputed them.

[UnLucky]

So what are you arguing about now? That hunters are fine and balanced and you just need to l2p? Or that you realize that even if you became flawless uber pro at the game, melee classes still fall behind ranged ones?

I don't care how much experience you've got, as long as you understand the gameplay mechanics a bit and you're familiar with how the classes function.

[Z-0]

ITT: People really overexaggerate melee falling behind ranged classes.

Yes, I think something needs to be done, but they're not "worthless to play" or anything silly like that (note: I haven't read the thread, too lazy). Hell, even in MPA, I still hit shit and actually contribute, because it's not hard to do.

[Zenobia]

We're getting better as our points are made for us by people who previously disputed them.

Good ol Giga no sugar coating your words i see best to give it out straight then beat around deh bush ehh?

[Zyrusticae]

We're getting better as our points are made for us by people who previously disputed them.
That's assuming they were ever under dispute in the first place.

Alot of "arguments" on here are simply disagreements over degrees of severity or potential solutions or what the actual sources of problems are, more than whether or not a problem actually exists in the first place.

All that crap you continue to spew about people actually agreeing with you in the first place is incredibly insipid as it completely ignores the nuances of what they're actually saying, which is not surprising at all seeing as how that's just the kind of person you are.

So what are you arguing about now? That hunters are fine and balanced and you just need to l2p? Or that you realize that even if you became flawless uber pro at the game, melee classes still fall behind ranged ones?

I don't care how much experience you've got, as long as you understand the gameplay mechanics a bit and you're familiar with how the classes function.
Reading comprehension... this guy lacks it.

[gigawuts]

That's assuming they were ever under dispute in the first place.

Alot of "arguments" on here are simply disagreements over degrees of severity or potential solutions or what the actual sources of problems are, more than whether or not a problem actually exists in the first place.

All that crap you continue to spew about people actually agreeing with you in the first place is incredibly insipid as it completely ignores the nuances of what they're actually saying, which is not surprising at all seeing as how that's just the kind of person you are.

Reading comprehension... this guy lacks it.

I would like very much for you to tell me about myself. You seem to know an awful lot about me. Why don't you write up a detailed analysis about me and PM it to me?

[UnLucky]

Reading comprehension... this guy lacks it.
Thanks for clarifying.

I guess I'll just consider you an idiot who sucks at melee and whines about how bad they are.

[Zenobia]

I would like very much for you to tell me about myself. You seem to know an awful lot about me. Why don't you write up a detailed analysis about me and PM it to me?

Yes please this thread was never supposed to turn into something like this lets keep it civil amongst ourselves and the thread please, but if cannot be talked about peacefully then by all means PM each other.

[UnLucky]

ITT: People really overexaggerate melee falling behind ranged classes.

Yes, I think something needs to be done, but they're not "worthless to play" or anything silly like that (note: I haven't read the thread, too lazy). Hell, even in MPA, I still hit shit and actually contribute, because it's not hard to do.

Nah, it's not really on that level. Just the consistent drawbacks in practically every field, even if each is not significant on their own, adds up to a lot of frustration.

[Zyrusticae]

Thanks for clarifying.

I guess I'll just consider you an idiot who sucks at melee and whines about how bad they are.
Reading comprehension. This guy lacks it.


I would like very much for you to tell me about myself. You seem to know an awful lot about me. Why don't you write up a detailed analysis about me and PM it to me?
What's the point? It'd be awfully short (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Troll).

[gigawuts]

Zyru you very often go on about how you dislike this forum and people in it, have what appears to be nervous breakdowns regarding like three posters who are only called trolls by you and maybe Hrith, and continuously discuss aspects of the game you very blatantly are not experienced with as if watching a few videos gives you authority to act like you know what the fuck you're talking about.

You're told to ignore people you very clearly cannot handle seeing the name of, and your response is you have them on ignore but can't keep yourself from reading their posts.

If you do not like me stop fucking reading my posts.

You do this dumb BS in every single thread we both happen to be posting in. Nobody cares. I don't care. Why do you think I'm not arguing with you? Nobody wants to see people go on like that. I don't want to get into dumb as fuck 10 page arguments about the same dumb shit, and you don't want to be on the verge of a nervous break. So do something about that.

[Zyrusticae]

It's funny that you say that, because it very easily works the other way.

Stop commenting on my posts like a douchebag, and maybe I won't go on and on about how much of a douchebag you are?

And I actually have never commented on anything I am not experienced with. There's a difference between experience and player skill.

And the only thing dumb as fuck here...

Is you.

I actually try to respond with some level of sincerity, always. I try to illuminate my viewpoint. I try. I mean, honestly, I try.

So what am I supposed to do when confronted with such immense levels of sheer idiocy? Look away, right? Fuck you. That's not happening.

You've managed to post nearly 5,000 times over the course of a mere 9 months. Five thousand times. You think I can just ignore that? Give me a fucking break. No, it's not going to happen. I tried.

[gigawuts]

Again with the going on about my postcount like it means something relevant? Geesh.

Maybe I should set you to ignore and solve your problem for you.

[The Walrus]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/ArriX/NoFightingNanako.jpg

[gigawuts]

Okay that's that solved. That shouldn't be an issue for Zyru again.

Where were we?

[Zyrusticae]

Oh, really? Let's see how long that lasts, shall we?

Even when you ignore people, you still see their posts when other people quote them and it also makes threads hard to follow when a good chunk of the posts are made by someone in the ignore list.

Frankly, I'd rather just see certain types of behavior treated far more harshly, but it's abundantly obvious that the moderation is being done by all of two people who really don't give much in the way of shits, so I guess them's the breaks. Whatever! Shit's here to stay, that much is clear.

[gigawuts]

Oh, no, I expand ignored posts too. It's just when I do that I have to see who actually posted it, which I normally don't look at when reading posts. So when I see your posts and see if it's anything besides a plain question or something regarding graphics with PSO2, I'll know to shrink it again and scroll down to the next one.

I've dealt with less stable, angrier, more ban-worthy people in the past and done fine. Unless you continue to go out of your way to reply to posts I make, which I'm not sure why you would since most won't be in response to you (and the ones that are, if there even are any, will be the helpful kind where I answer questions you ask against all better judgement), then none of your accusatory posts will be directed at me and I won't have any need to involve myself in your affairs.

Really, all you had to do was ask me to ignore you a while ago. I'd have obliged. I don't mind. I get that our personalities aren't compatible. I don't want to go around making everyone argue with everyone all the time. It pushes people away. We just grate on eachother a lot. We both get along just fine with plenty of other people.

[UnLucky]

Mods please move posts 113-177 to FKL thanks

[Zyrusticae]

Fair enough. Just throw all that junk in the garbage, we don't need it in this thread.

[Zenobia]

OKAY!

Yeah guys about that we are def veering way off topic then what this thread was really meant for so lets veer this back on topic shall we ^^"?

On a side not I have used JG before on Quarts laser rain and i dunno maybe i time it to early but i would get confused for some reason even when i have fully nullified the move entirely no damage taken weird...

[gigawuts]

The best way I can describe it is...

He does his roar

He raises his wings

Crystals appear and go SHKEE

count one

count two

GUARD RIGHT NOW

KCHANG (you did a just guard)

Now you're invincible and it's raining lasers KTEW KTEW KTEW

GUARD AGAIN - KCHANG

KTEW KTEW

Good job, you JG'd his grants rain \o/

[BIG OLAF]

I just use the dagger parry and swish through the whole thing. It's fuckin' awesome. All slo-mo and shit.

[gigawuts]

I keep wanting to test acro effect with it but never get around to actually saying "This is the time I'd like to die repeatedly trying to see if this even works."

[Soultrigger]

Aaaand done.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4mVpezJAhc

[BlueCast Boy]

I never thought that its possible to solo DF...I guess that Falz Arms may be even be more difficult, but anyways great job out there!

[Shadowth117]

I never thought that its possible to solo DF...I guess that Falz Arms may be even be more difficult, but anyways great job out there!

Both can be easily done so long as you can get out enough DPS. There's actually a video of a Fi player doing it in around 6-8 minutes (can't remember the time -_-').

[Renvalt]

people are actually getting upset over this show offy e-peen thread?

look, this 'challenge' doesn't take any skill. the bosses attacks all have very slow starting animations and they're extremely simplistic.

some of the boss attacks in this game are so freakin' terrible that people go AFK during them.

we're not playing a hardcore action game here, we're playing a party based gear grinder, so don't kid yourself.

as for hunter, I already posted what I think in the hunter thread. in the actual bulk of PSO2 not in show offy epeen videos, hunters are just chasing around enemies, not getting a hit in,and just being dead weight compared to force and ranged.


God, Emizel, will you SHUT THE HELL UP!? You go play your "challenging hard mode" game if you want to. You accuse us of stroking our e-peens, but then you go and stroke an e-peen of a different charge?

Emizel, I have nothing more to say to you. You CLEARLY are an idiot. All you do is whine, whine, whine because the game isn't built the way you want it. Well, newsflash: you're not the only person who plays this game, so I'd stuff it if I were you.

You wanna tell us that we're shoving our "e-peens"? Then you do it. Show us your skills, and give us something to whet our appetites, or shut up and crawl back into your whiner's corner where you belong.

@Soultrigger: Nicely done. Didn't think it'd be possible to solo Dark Falz. Although, can anyone here do it with no ranged weapons? I doubt it'd be possible to do a complete arm break with that setup, but I'm just wondering if, solo, it was possible to kill Dark Falz alone.

Also, has anybody solo'd the arms yet? I'd imagine that's hell on earth.

@Gigawuts - Lemme just say that I have a problem with your arrogant ego trip. Your posts give me the impression that you fancy yourself the best PSO2 player ever, and that anyone that wants to play amongst you has to be as good as you or they're absolute shit.

I really hate people like that. It grinds my gears to know that elitism has managed to sneak its way into this game too - although it's everywhere, so I wasn't going to get my hopes up too high.

Either way, I've said all that I'll say on that matter.


tl;dr - Emizel's a drama llama, Soul has an impressive vid, and Gigawuts thinks he's the king of the world, while I think he's the world's biggest douchebag.

[Enforcer MKV]

*beep*

*Pats your back* Block and report, my friend. Block and report.

[gigawuts]

God, Emizel, will you SHUT THE HELL UP!? You go play your "challenging hard mode" game if you want to. You accuse us of stroking our e-peens, but then you go and stroke an e-peen of a different charge?

Emizel, I have nothing more to say to you. You CLEARLY are an idiot. All you do is whine, whine, whine because the game isn't built the way you want it. Well, newsflash: you're not the only person who plays this game, so I'd stuff it if I were you.

You wanna tell us that we're shoving our "e-peens"? Then you do it. Show us your skills, and give us something to whet our appetites, or shut up and crawl back into your whiner's corner where you belong.

@Soultrigger: Nicely done. Didn't think it'd be possible to solo Dark Falz. Although, can anyone here do it with no ranged weapons? I doubt it'd be possible to do a complete arm break with that setup, but I'm just wondering if, solo, it was possible to kill Dark Falz alone.

Also, has anybody solo'd the arms yet? I'd imagine that's hell on earth.

@Gigawuts - Lemme just say that I have a problem with your arrogant ego trip. Your posts give me the impression that you fancy yourself the best PSO2 player ever, and that anyone that wants to play amongst you has to be as good as you or they're absolute shit.

I really hate people like that. It grinds my gears to know that elitism has managed to sneak its way into this game too - although it's everywhere, so I wasn't going to get my hopes up too high.

Either way, I've said all that I'll say on that matter.


tl;dr - Emizel's a drama llama, Soul has an impressive vid, and Gigawuts thinks he's the king of the world, while I think he's the world's biggest douchebag.

I don't actually, but I don't mind you thinking I think that given the way you go way over the top on a whim, as you have here again. If I actually come across like that it's not intentional. There are these things called "facts." They are not subject to opinion. I play this game a lot and so I have a lot of these "facts." Some people who don't have as many get their panties in a wad when I display too many of them at once. If what I say is not a fact I precede it with something denoting as much.

By the by, good job saying you have nothing more to say and then saying something more.

Also, you too are free to not read what I say (I'll consider it a personal favor).

edit: Oh, and, I don't care how good people are - I care how they play. I have a lot of people who are not particularly good at this game, nor are they well equipped, and I still play with them just fine. Why? They learn. If you can't admit you don't know something or that you're wrong I want nothing to do with you. I play the same general way - I learn. It's pretty presumptuous of you to make such blind assertions, and I would thank you to kindly cut it the fuck out.

edit2: And you know what, I didn't argue with Zyru here and I'm not arguing with you either. A random thread is not the place. If you have a problem with me you can PM me. If not, I don't want to hear it at all.

[Soultrigger]

I never thought that its possible to solo DF...I guess that Falz Arms may be even be more difficult, but anyways great job out there!

Well, I'd rather not have to fork over 150k+ EXP every attempt.
Not to mention Falz Arms aren't exactly melee friendly in the sense that you have to chase them around. Staying in the back half, the only things you'd have to watch out for are random meteors. You can just watch every hand on the radar and just attack from outside the corner.
I also think 10+ minutes of Deadly Archer would get boring real fast.


Both can be easily done so long as you can get out enough DPS. There's actually a video of a Fi player doing it in around 6-8 minutes (can't remember the time -_-').

Not everyone can afford Lvl 3 50 element Lambda Fairnote.
And iirc, the person got hit in the video. At some point, speed runs just becomes a "who has better gear", so looking at purely the numbers, even if they are objective to measure, doesn't truly evaluate the "skill" of the player. Though I do agree that these no damage boss rush aren't that meaningful without actually "rushing". After all, these bosses have been out since July, November for Zeshi.

And to be fair, Fighter and Hunter are not even my main classes.


Although, can anyone here do it with no ranged weapons?

The gunslash was just to recover PP. The damage is insignificant. Heck, it's not even +10 or properly affixed for RATK.
Making the video 2 minutes longer just serves to be redundant. I think limiting yourself from tools you have access to is just an excuse for people to not think beyond standard means.

EDIT: Actually, if you're really that stingy about what's allowed, I did do a run once without gunslash/mirage escape:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppLtQBN9RlQ[/SPOILER-BOX]
Problem is I got hit in that take because his arm obscured my camera and I didn't hear the audio cue over Deadly Archer. (I also lost track of the time interval of his lasers, which is probably something a lot of people will overlook when looking at my no damage run).

But yea, you should probably throw that mindset away. The premise of the challenge was "beat bosses without taking damage as a melee class". If you don't impose clearly defined rules from the getgo what is allowed and what isn't (and there better be a good reason why not), then people should be able to use whatever means necessary to optimize their runs.

[gigawuts]

Making the video 2 minutes longer just serves to be redundant. I think limiting yourself from tools you have access to is just an excuse for people to not think beyond standard means.

I think this is a good summary of videos like these as a whole. There's no reason to not use just guard, or not use certain attacks. Then the no damage runs are less about skill and more about flitting around outside of attack ranges, so those are pretty pointless too. So then the idea is a speed run.

And then, even if we all decide to use the same standard gear (I don't know, no SE, +10, 50 light red weapons), then the person with the most optimized tree will generally have the best runs. Then you standardize that. Now you're looking at very similar runs, varying only in techniques and tactics.

That's what really winds up counting. The videos essentially become an exchange of techniques and tactics. Bragging rights are just the superficial point. The real benefit of these videos is sharing how you do things and why you do them that way. And that doesn't require a video.

Videos are prettier than explanations though, so this is moot.

[エミーゼル]

God, Emizel, will you SHUT THE HELL UP!? You go play your "challenging hard mode" game if you want to. You accuse us of stroking our e-peens, but then you go and stroke an e-peen of a different charge?

Emizel, I have nothing more to say to you. You CLEARLY are an idiot. All you do is whine, whine, whine because the game isn't built the way you want it. Well, newsflash: you're not the only person who plays this game, so I'd stuff it if I were you.

You wanna tell us that we're shoving our "e-peens"? Then you do it. Show us your skills, and give us something to whet our appetites, or shut up and crawl back into your whiner's corner where you belong.

Back the hell up before you get smacked the hell up. I'll play PSO2 if i want. if I want to test my reflexes against other players, ill turn on my PS3 and play tekken. if I want a challenging action game, I'll play DMC. compared to PSO2, even DmC(which is a breeze on its hardest unlocked mode)is way more challenging than PSO2.

no I'm not going to make a video because: its pointless. first of all soloing is boring to me in PSO2, so it's a waste of my time to begin with doing something I don't find is fun. second, these videos just aren't terribly impressive. usually im all for these kinds of showoffy videos, since I upload combo videos for other games constantly. but with PSO2 what are we showing off exactly?

that we could memorize the attack patterns of a small handful of bosses? that many of you have been fighting repeatedly for months? yeah, bravo on that one. like I said in my other thread, we're talking about bosses that my 5 year old brother was easily able to defeat solo(not flawless, but still).

[Soultrigger]

@Emizel

Your post screams "flamebait", but I can tell you're serious about what you're saying. You should learn to have some tact if you want people to actually listen to you.

Now here's some things I agree with/acknowledge:
-you don't have to be an author to critique a book. The same can be said about directors/movies, chefs/food, etc.
-PSO2 isn't a "pure" skill-based games. RPG elements meant to be grindy and artificial lengthening, as well as the F2P/P2W characteristic to rake in profit makes comparing skill between players greatly obscured
-the bosses are really old, so there isn't much merit to displaying knowledge of their AI at this point of the game's lifespan

And of course, the things I disagree with:
-what you find fun, interesting, or impressive =/= what other people find fun/etc
-just because PSO2 isn't a "pure" skill-based game doesn't mean it's completely devoid of skill.
-there is such a thing as a stupid/poor opinion. you don't have to release a video of boss solos, but that also means your opinions will have very little weight to them, which means no one will care about what you have to say because your input lacks experience/knowledge. if you don't care, then don't post.

[Seraphus]

Back the hell up before you get smacked the hell up. I'll play PSO2 if i want. if I want to test my reflexes against other players, ill turn on my PS3 and play tekken. if I want a challenging action game, I'll play DMC. compared to PSO2, even DmC(which is a breeze on its hardest unlocked mode)is way more challenging than PSO2.

no I'm not going to make a video because: its pointless. first of all soloing is boring to me in PSO2, so it's a waste of my time to begin with doing something I don't find is fun. second, these videos just aren't terribly impressive. usually im all for these kinds of showoffy videos, since I upload combo videos for other games constantly. but with PSO2 what are we showing off exactly?

that we could memorize the attack patterns of a small handful of bosses? that many of you have been fighting repeatedly for months? yeah, bravo on that one. like I said in my other thread, we're talking about bosses that my 5 year old brother was easily able to defeat solo(not flawless, but still).

"Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts."

/reports post (and LOL at your first line)

This whole thread should just be thrown in the garbage anyway. If you want to post a vid, just do it in the movie and screenshot thread.

[Anatha]

Considering you shouldn't even be posting here due to the fact that you were banned, I'd say no one wants you here.

Fairly certain circumventing a ban in this way is worth another more serious one. Do you not have a therapist to share your worldly complaints with? Might do you one better than attention seeking behavior like this on a message board.

[Zyrusticae]

look, this 'challenge' doesn't take any skill. the bosses attacks all have very slow starting animations and they're extremely simplistic.
Not... really.

I'd say a number of the bosses here are on par with many of the ones in Dark Souls in terms of their speed and attack complexity. Of course, what makes them difficult is the fact that you generally don't have tools quite as powerful as you do in PSO2 (overpowered PAs, Just Guard/Step Advance, Weak Bullet + Chain Trigger, techniques in general), and all of those bosses would be a cakewalk if you could pull off some of the attacks you can in here.

Unsurprisingly, however, even the bosses in Dark Souls become a cakewalk once you learn their attack patterns - and many players have been fighting the same bosses dozens of times, so they know what they can do by heart.

Actually, I'm not even sure what metric you're going by if the bosses here are "slow" and "simple". I can't really think of a game that does more difficult bosses than the banthers or quartz dragon (at least without going waaay deep into the realm of "artificial difficulty"). Ninja Gaiden's might qualify, but that's a game famed specifically for its sky-high difficulty level. God of War is extremely heavy on quick-time events (and isn't that hard to begin with), Devil May Cry has a lot of gimmicky stuff, Dragon's Dogma is actually noticeably easier (which is unsurprising considering they don't even give every class a block or dodge ability)...

...While we're on the subject, you've convinced me to make a comparison: Dark Souls vs. PSO2! Yes, it's silly, but I felt like it, so there!

Dark Souls
[spoiler-box]
Asylum Demon/Stray Demon/Firesage Demon - All of them are piss-easy - just stand behind them and whack away, run away when they do their buttslam or use their staff-slam spell attack that reaches behind them. Harsh as a newbie simply because they kill you very quickly with their outrageously high damage.
Taurus Demon - Haha! He makes Falz Hunar look like a god in comparison. So incredibly slow, you just step back away from him and give him a few retaliatory whacks, rinse and repeat.
Capra Demon - Bullshit difficulty tier. Only hard because of the dogs that will flinchlock you if you can't kill them quickly or lack high poise - otherwise, he's just a minor roadblock for the Chosen Undead. Amusingly, would be a complete cakewalk in PSO2 - just step through the dogs, kill them with a long range attack, then laugh as he slowly swings at you with his ridiculously telegraphed attacks.
Belfry Gargoyles - Pretty much the Dark Souls equivalent of the banshee fight - easy until the second guy comes along to ruin your day. Even then, still easy if you brought Solaire or Lautrec (or both!) along.
Moonlight Butterfly - Come on, really? This pitiful thing wouldn't even be given the time of day in a game like PSO2. Even in Dark Souls, all you have to do is strafe in front of her and dodge-roll every time she does an attack. Or bring Beatrice along and do nothing. Trivial.
Gaping Dragon - A JOKE. If this guy was a boss in PSO2 everybody would just laugh at him. He only does damage if you're stupid enough to ever stand in front of him, and it's so trivially easy to avoid doing so it still makes me laugh when people somehow manage to foolishly die against him.
Quelaag - This one's actually interesting, thanks largely to the area-denying lava spills she employs - something I'd actually like to see used in PSO2. Otherwise, she's one of those bosses where you just stay out of range until you see an opening, whack away, and then dodge away to repeat the process. She does have a pretty big movelist that can be difficult to get acclimated to, but pretty much everything dangerous has a big tell in front of it.
Iron Golem - Ummm, I don't really have much to say about this boss since Iron Tarkus pretty much demolishes him on his own. The "break his knees!" mechanic reminds me of Zeshrayda, though he doesn't fight much like him. The Iron Golem is definitely the easier boss.
Ornstein & Smough - Okay, yes, these guys are bastards. Attempting them solo would be like trying to take on banther & quartz dragon simultaneously - your face gets raped innumerable times in the attempt, and eventually you'll probably want to seek out help. I think it would actually be cool if PSO2 attempted a similar boss encounter - one fast, long-ranged fighter with a slow, heavy bruiser accompanying him. Of course, beating them solo would then be a major challenge and point of pride for many players.
Dark Sun Gwyndolin - Man, Dark Souls has way too many of these one-note bosses. Seriously, all you have to do is dodge his ranged attacks, get in his face and whack him a few times, and repeat. As bad as some of PSO2's bosses might be, none of them are this pathetic.
Crossbreed Priscilla - A boss difficult only because of her invisibility mechanic. Reveal her and her slow attacks become a trivial joke. The only hard part after that is breaking her tail, which is optional (but recommended).
Pinwheel - Imagine, for a moment, if PSO2 had a ranged caster boss that just threw fireballs at you and made clones of itself, but was made of paper. Yeah, that's this guy. Dead in two seconds flat, tops.
Gravelord Nito - Another boss difficult almost entirely because of the adds. Fortunately, a divine weapon dispatches them cleanly (so long as you don't aggro the giant ones). The only thing difficult about him is dodging his ground-spike attack, and only because there's basically no tell for it other than an audio cue. His attacks are slow and don't even reach close enough to harm you if you're in his face.
Sig, the Great Grey Wolf - Ah, Sif. I love you, why don't you love me back? Emotional turmoil aside, her attacks just don't reach close enough to hit you if you're whacking at her belly. I imagine she would actually be a challenge for a ranger, if only because of her speed and reach. Forces have too much invuln to care.
The Four Kings - Fuck these guys. Pure DPS race, through-and-through. Thank goodness PSO2 doesn't have bullshit like this.
Ceaseless Discharge - Does this guy even qualify as a boss? I guess he has to, seeing as how he has an HP bar and everything. Either way, he's more of an environmental hazard than anything else. Surprisingly long reach because of a bullshit attack hitbox (he'll hit you even if the model isn't physically anywhere near you) is the only thing that really makes him "difficult". I'd cry if SEGA resorted to shit like this in PSO2.
Centipede Demon - This guy's actually pretty interesting. He has an environmental hazard (he's immersed in lava for half the fight), a potentially nasty ranged attack, a grapple attack, and his melee attacks are pretty varied, if rather slow (like most bosses in this game). It's the combination of these things that makes him a challenge, and it's something I'd like to see more of - although the lava was really used just to make the arena smaller, so they could have done that better.
Bed of Chaos - Bullshit difficulty tier. Sweeping attacks that insta-kill you by sending you straight into the abyss. Please, never, ever make a boss like this, ever, in any game. I never want to see this again. Lazy, horrible design.
Seath the Scaleless - What, really? This guy practically spams the one same breath attack over and over again, occasionally flailingly his tentacles around blindly (well, he IS blind) or doing a room-filling attack that only triggers under certain conditions (and is bullshit, because it's a room-filling attack). He's so easy he actually made me sad when I beat him because he looks so badass (and freakish).
Gwyn, Lord of Cinder - Kind of like fighting a hunter clone, except instead of flinch-locking him to death, you parry him to death. The whole point of this guy is just to show you how far gone the Lords actually are, so yeah, not much challenge to be found here (unless you're doing a SL1 run, which would be like dropping all of your units and your weapon to 1* versions in PSO2).

Expansion bosses
This is where things get good. Pretty much all of the bosses in the Artorias of the Abyss are actually fun to fight. Good stuff all around.
Sanctuary Guardian - Love this guy. Fast, aggressive, leaves few openings... but is very, very squishy. He's like an even more aggressive version of banther, with more ranged attacks. He could be ported over to PSO2 wholesale and he'd be a great fight (unless you're in a party, then he's just kind of a joke with that HP).
Knight Artorias - Okay, I love this guy, but he just wouldn't work as a boss in PSO2 with how all of his attacks are heavily telegraphed. Falz Hunar is more of a challenge than this guy, as much as I love his design.
Black Dragon Kalameet - You know what? This guy plays a LOT like the dragons in PSO2. I bet you could port him over entirely and he'd fit right in. His telekinesis attack would be an excellent way to troll newbies. One thing that really strikes me about this boss is how well they sell the feel of him being a heavy, massive winged serpent. I think it's the particle effects when he's jumping and stomping around. Good stuff.
Manus - Yes. This guy. This guy right here. This is a perfect boss. Perfect. He's fast, aggressive, tough, has a huge variety of attacks... but never, not once does he feel like he's bullshitting you. Simply perfection.
[/spoiler-box]
Phantasy Star Online 2
[spoiler-box]
Rockbear - He's the "intro" boss. The guy you fight when you're just getting used to the game mechanics. Like the Asylum demon, piss-easy once you get the timing down. Unlike the Asylum demon, it is never the case that you can just stand behind him and whack away and occasionally back off. But, y'know, different games...
Caterdran - I actually like this guy. Yeah, he's simple, and only has a small handful of moves, but he still manages to keep you on your toes with his spinning stun attack and his three-hit chain attacks when he gets angry. Like the Rockbear, he's kind of an intro boss. Can be quite chaotic with two of these fighting at once.
Vol Dragon - You know what? He's probably too slow. Still, he has a decent variety of attacks, and he looks fuckin' sweet. Definitely one of the easier guys, though.
Gwanada - Aside from his vacuum grapple attack, which has the potential to destroy you if his tentacles are whacking at you at the same time, he is also pretty darn easy. Also infuriating with how much he hides under the damn ground. Two of them can be difficult with how many tentacles they have trying to whack you at once, or if one of them is vacuuming and the other is charging at you etc. This is a boss clearly designed to scale in numbers.
De Malmoth - This guy's a bit of a surprise. Many of his attacks are slow, but he has huge reach and has a mix-up that can catch you off-guard (the aforementioned 'is he jumping back, going to charge, or throwing snowballs?'), which some people might consider to be artificial difficulty or the monster designer just being a dickweed. Regardless, since he can't one-shot you, he's not a threat on his own.
Fang Banshee/Fang Banther - Banshee is easy. With the exception of the quick forward lunge/slam, all of her moves are telegraphed. Banther, on the other hand, is a bit of a dick. He will mix-up between a one-hit, two-hit, and three-hit attack chain (the lunge attack of which can hit grounded and kill you dead very quickly), will use his barely-has-a-tell-and-will-hit-you-from-behind jump charge four times in a row, and is very fast and aggressive in general. Also, he's a dick.
Tranmizer - Yep, slow and telegraphed once again. At least in his ranged form, his missiles will kill you pretty quick if you don't outrun them, but his inability to attack targets behind him in melee form is a major vulnerability. What makes him more interesting is that there's often more than one (hmmm, there's a running theme here...). TBH, though, I find mass signo guns to be more of a pain in the rear than two mizers.
Big Vardha - Aw, come on, how can you not love this guy? He's one of the few who can pose a genuine challenge to any level of player. Want to test your skill at dodging projectiles? Try to kill him solo without destroying a single turret. Go on, I'll be waiting.
Quartz Dragon - I love this guy. Yes, he's a bastard, but he's a lovable, pretty, gemmed-up bastard. How can you not love fighting a dragon that flies like a jet fighter? He can be pretty rough, too, with his rain-from-the-sky attack and his incredibly fast nose-slash spam attack (which is usually what kills me). Don't talk him down, please. He's a genuine challenge.
Wolgahda - Yeah, okay, he's kind of an upgraded rockbear. I like him, though. You have to pay attention while fighting him (especially when there's two) or you'll get knocked flat on your ass. Pretty gimmicky, though, what with his jump-charge being his biggest attack and all.
Zeshrayda - I think this guy's pretty interesting. Dodging projectiles, trying not to get body-slammed, aiming for his head when it pops out... he might not be the toughest bastard in this game, but they sure did give you a lot to do when fighting him.
Dark Ragne - Disc barrage? Time your jumps. Carpet bombing? Move out of the way. Pincer attack? It's slow, dodge it. Dark energy bodyslam attack? Move out of the way. Leg sweep? It's slow, dodge it. Yeah, when people think of easy bosses in PSO2, Dark Ragne is probably waaaaay up on the top of that list. At least she can one-shot you with her discs if you make a critical timing or positioning mistake (and I'll admit this has happened to me an embarrassing number of times - that is to say, higher than one).
Dark Falz Arms - Pure chaos. This fight is pretty much designed to force you to move, and it's very, very good at that. I like it. Aside from when I'm playing hunter/fighter and having to chase these things down, but that's something I have to do even as a force, so not sure how strongly I feel about that. I still die every now and then fighting these things (hand slam combo from offscreen, laser attack taking me down from 3/4 to 0, and so on), so I think they tuned the difficulty about right.
Dark Falz Elder - A test of team coordination and focus fire more than anything else. Yep, absolutely everything can be dodged. Really, it's designed to keep your attention over the duration more than anything else, especially after many repeated playthroughs, so I think it's good for what it is. I don't even care that you only die if you make a particularly boneheaded mistake. He's there for you to have fun fighting alongside 11 other players against a powerful enemy.
Falz Hunar - I want to see someone manage to kill this guy without taking a hit. I'm not sure it's even possible. This guy is currently the deadliest son of a bitch in PSO2, and I love him for it. Okay, granted, I say that when he actually hasn't managed to kill me, but he's still the most fun fight in the game so far. Fast, aggressive, and has a huge movelist. The game needs more guys like him. [/spoiler-box]
In summary, both games have their upsides and downsides, but the simple truth is that very few bosses can survive exposure after months and months of play. There are a few exceptions (Manus and Falz Hunar particularly), but they are just that - exceptions. Perhaps they should aspire to make all bosses play more like them? I would not object to that at all.

But the hyperbole is insane. Yes, a lot of the bosses are easy, but 'yawn-inducing'? Maybe in geared and skilled parties, but multi-parties are yawn-inducing no matter what (the game just doesn't scale very well with 12 players, let's be honest here). And it does take skill to consistently dodge every attack a boss throws out at you over the course of an entire fight, even if all the attacks are telegraphed. Maybe not as much skill as whatever you're using as a benchmark, but no skill at all? Yeah, sorry, that's just plain ol' hyperbole. I'm not even interested in reading that.

[Skyly HUmar]

Back the hell up before you get smacked the hell up. I'll play PSO2 if i want. if I want to test my reflexes against other players, ill turn on my PS3 and play tekken. if I want a challenging action game, I'll play DMC. compared to PSO2, even DmC(which is a breeze on its hardest unlocked mode)is way more challenging than PSO2.

no I'm not going to make a video because: its pointless. first of all soloing is boring to me in PSO2, so it's a waste of my time to begin with doing something I don't find is fun. second, these videos just aren't terribly impressive. usually im all for these kinds of showoffy videos, since I upload combo videos for other games constantly. but with PSO2 what are we showing off exactly?

that we could memorize the attack patterns of a small handful of bosses? that many of you have been fighting repeatedly for months? yeah, bravo on that one. like I said in my other thread, we're talking about bosses that my 5 year old brother was easily able to defeat solo(not flawless, but still).

Lets see a vid of him soloing every boss in vh "easily" as you say.

Listen emi boy, just because you can't do something/dont want to do something/get annoyed everytime you try something, doesnt mean that we enjoy your bitching. The whole reason for this thread is for people to post videos of themselves doing that challenge we all gave you and you never did.

Theres alot of people that piss me off in psow emi boy, but i can say with all certainty that the only one that just posts retarded shit every time he posts is you. If you dont like the thread, why not just leave it alone huh? Is that so hard to do?

[BIG OLAF]

If you dont like the thread, why not just leave it alone huh? Is that so hard to do?

Because that's not what trolls do. The whole purpose of every single one of his posts is to trollbait and/or flamebait. That's it! He sits there, scratching his chin wondering what he can say to optimally piss off the most people, and people constantly bite, so he keeps doing it. Trolling: it's not rocket science.

Hilarious thing is that, even though he made this second account after his first one was banned, the mods haven't done anything about it. I mean, lol. C'mon now.

[Skyly HUmar]

I think this is a good summary of videos like these as a whole. There's no reason to not use just guard, or not use certain attacks. Then the no damage runs are less about skill and more about flitting around outside of attack ranges, so those are pretty pointless too. So then the idea is a speed run.

And then, even if we all decide to use the same standard gear (I don't know, no SE, +10, 50 light red weapons), then the person with the most optimized tree will generally have the best runs. Then you standardize that. Now you're looking at very similar runs, varying only in techniques and tactics.

That's what really winds up counting. The videos essentially become an exchange of techniques and tactics. Bragging rights are just the superficial point. The real benefit of these videos is sharing how you do things and why you do them that way. And that doesn't require a video.

Videos are prettier than explanations though, so this is moot.

I get where you are coming from, but I still think its a bit harder to no damage a boss than to speed run it. Its just my experience and i can say that i definantly get hit alot more (sometimes on purpose lol) when i just want to kill something quickly.

[Zyrusticae]

Funny, I thought you were supposed to rush the boss down regardless of whether or not you were attempting a no-damage run as a matter of course.

So I've been doing it wrong this whole time? Heh! :p

[Skyly HUmar]

Funny, I thought you were supposed to rush the boss down regardless of whether or not you were attempting a no-damage run as a matter of course.

So I've been doing it wrong this whole time? Heh! :p

I honestly doubt theres anyone that could lol. Well i wont say that, theres always someone. But i wasnt aiming for speed at all when i did mine.

[Renvalt]

The gunslash was just to recover PP. The damage is insignificant. Heck, it's not even +10 or properly affixed for RATK.
Making the video 2 minutes longer just serves to be redundant. I think limiting yourself from tools you have access to is just an excuse for people to not think beyond standard means.

EDIT: Actually, if you're really that stingy about what's allowed, I did do a run once without gunslash/mirage escape:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppLtQBN9RlQ[/SPOILER-BOX]
Problem is I got hit in that take because his arm obscured my camera and I didn't hear the audio cue over Deadly Archer. (I also lost track of the time interval of his lasers, which is probably something a lot of people will overlook when looking at my no damage run).

But yea, you should probably throw that mindset away. The premise of the challenge was "beat bosses without taking damage as a melee class". If you don't impose clearly defined rules from the getgo what is allowed and what isn't (and there better be a good reason why not), then people should be able to use whatever means necessary to optimize their runs.

Whoa whoa whoa, I don't get the premise of the fact that now suddenly I'm the biggest cause of this whole e-peen stroking fest. I only made that challenge on a whim - I wasn't even expecting it to become this big a deal.

Now suddenly I'm known for something I hadn't intended to be known for. The OP of this topic went ahead and made a big deal out of something that was a personal request (although I'll admit I made the error of posting it in public and not PMing it) and a random one at that.

I wasn't judging anyone by their "skill level", I was just trying to get certain people not to go whining or flaming everyone in the goddamned forum (those people will know who they are).

Honestly, I draw all the negative attention simply because I just want people to play nice and fair. If I have objections to their beliefs, suddenly I'm the devil for voicing those objections.

It's like everyone has to suffer because I'm trying to prevent egotistical elitism from spreading.

@Gigawuts - You're right. I attacked you unwarranted. Perhaps I might actually play alongside you one day? Perhaps then this may put any doubts about my "inability to learn" to rest?

I'm not saying that to offend, and if it comes off that way I apologize in advance. I simply think that the less we spit flaming poison at each other, the quicker we can resolve this rift between us.

@Mods - Can we have this thread locked? I think its purpose devolved from being anything meaningful quite a bit ago.

Not to mention, I'd rather not give a certain ban evader more room to spit poison in.

@Zyrus - Your comparison was godly. I wish I could give reps, but this thread's closing soon, so.....

[Skyly HUmar]

Oh the topic did get a bit derailed, but props on your falz run soul. I would say the challenge is for melee weps only but thats just how i would view it. You still did great using all of the tools at your disposal and overall it came out looking nice.

[Cyclon]

Stop asking for locks as soon as there's conflict. I disagree, this thread hasn't run its course yet, as some people might want to try their hands at this "challenge". And if nobody does, well the thread will eventually die. Also, you're not responsible Renvalt. People make their own choices. So don't feel bad.

Oh, and since I haven't said it yet, gratz to the people who succesfully completed the no damage run. Too much deadly archer in some cases for my taste, but whatever.

[Renvalt]

Oh the topic did get a bit derailed, but props on your falz run soul. I would say the challenge is for melee weps only but thats just how i would view it. You still did great using all of the tools at your disposal and overall it came out looking nice.

He does have a point on Gunslash, though. The whole reason I told him not to use ranged weapons was because, in my blind moment of lacking observation, I thought he was using a Rifle. It was my faux pas, and I take full blame for that.

Oh yeah, I wanna add a few things to Zyrus' comparison (on the PSO2 end, that is - since I've never played Dark Souls):

-Tranmizer in Lilipa TA has a swarm of Sparzyles flowing in. It's not bad at first, but then they start spawning faster and harder. Having to deal with Tranny when you have a room flooding with walking death every second you take to kill this mofo can be irritating. Hardly what I'd call "easy".

-Vol Dragon used to be the first "cockblock" boss pre-nerf, but the patch tamed his former fury. Now he's as tame as a Pomeranian Poodle. That said, he moves around a lot, which is annoying when I'm aiming for the bastard's tail (it gets worse if he has mobs spawned with him, like in the TA version).

-Dark Ragne's only easy for me if I've got backup - I can't dish out enough damage to break the legs (not to mention I'm still learning the disc timing).

I'm kinda eager to see what Chrome Dragon/Sekh Dragon/Fat Jabo are gonna be like. The whole Dragon's Relic seems like they took VR Ruins from Episode 2 and slammed the VR Spaceship mobs in there. I mean, Sekh Dragon seems like a proper Gol Dragon (the Gol Dragon in PSO1 didn't even look gold), whereas Fat Jabo looks like he's summoning illusions of the other dragons.

However, Sekh Dragon seems like he'll be the boss, with Fat Jabo being the midboss and Chrome Dragon being PSO2 E2's Dark Ragne (the initial EQ exclusive boss of this episode).

EDIT: About your Dark Soul's comparison, Zyrus, I wanna add something: Ornstein and Smough? The way you paint him kinda reminds me of The Hanged Man from "House of the Dead 2", simply because of how annoying the imp around the armor is (not to mention you can't even harm the boss without hitting the imp).

It also makes me think that this could be the very form that Falz Double might take when they get in game. Like an evil version of the Twins PB from PSO1, except more annoying to deal with.

[Skyly HUmar]

Too much deadly archer in some cases for my taste, but whatever.

I dont like using 3x of any PA in general, yeah, 3x a PA can be better, but I just find it funner to mix'n match different ones. If there were some good all class Fi weps out there id need 12-13 palette slots for all my combos actually.

[Renvalt]

I dont like using 3x of any PA in general, yeah, 3x a PA can be better, but I just find it funner to mix'n match different ones. If there were some good all class Fi weps out there id need 12-13 palette slots for all my combos actually.

I use 3x PA simply because as a non-multitasking moron, I can't keep track of which PA's up. Therefore, my combos get ruined simply because my weapons of choice require me to keep on the offense to have gear up (Knuckles and Daggers, to be exact).

That said, not having the one weapon I DO want for the type I'm maining sucks more balls than a rancid goat's carcass.

[Skyly HUmar]

I use 3x PA simply because as a non-multitasking moron, I can't keep track of which PA's up. Therefore, my combos get ruined simply because my weapons of choice require me to keep on the offense to have gear up (Knuckles and Daggers, to be exact).

That said, not having the one weapon I DO want for the type I'm maining sucks more balls than a rancid goat's carcass.

I used to have that same problem actually, what I did was chose 3 different PAs that all go into each other after a step attack and just play arround with them while throwing in some normal attacks, kinda like shadow boxing.

[Zenobia]

Whoa whoa whoa, I don't get the premise of the fact that now suddenly I'm the biggest cause of this whole e-peen stroking fest. I only made that challenge on a whim - I wasn't even expecting it to become this big a deal.

Now suddenly I'm known for something I hadn't intended to be known for. The OP of this topic went ahead and made a big deal out of something that was a personal request (although I'll admit I made the error of posting it in public and not PMing it) and a random one at that.

I wasn't judging anyone by their "skill level", I was just trying to get certain people not to go whining or flaming everyone in the goddamned forum (those people will know who they are).

Honestly, I draw all the negative attention simply because I just want people to play nice and fair. If I have objections to their beliefs, suddenly I'm the devil for voicing those objections.

It's like everyone has to suffer because I'm trying to prevent egotistical elitism from spreading.

@Gigawuts - You're right. I attacked you unwarranted. Perhaps I might actually play alongside you one day? Perhaps then this may put any doubts about my "inability to learn" to rest?

I'm not saying that to offend, and if it comes off that way I apologize in advance. I simply think that the less we spit flaming poison at each other, the quicker we can resolve this rift between us.

@Mods - Can we have this thread locked? I think its purpose devolved from being anything meaningful quite a bit ago.

Not to mention, I'd rather not give a certain ban evader more room to spit poison in.

@Zyrus - Your comparison was godly. I wish I could give reps, but this thread's closing soon, so.....

Wait did you just say I MADE A DEAL OUT THIS!?

All i said was that you made a good challenge not OMFG RENVALT THIS CHALLENGE IS SO FUCKING HARD!

How the hell is GZ you for making a cool challenge a big deal honestly you looked at my thread the wrong way if at all which kinda has me confused now at this point ,but wth im not gonna start another flame war to derail this any further then what it has turned into.

You were never the cause of this if you actually go back a few post you can see that Zyrus was just frustrated that is all how does that add up it being your fault is totally beyond me you shouldn't think that way!

This thread was NEVER SUPPOSE TO TURN INTO THIS WHY IN THE HELL IS STUFF LIKE THIS HAPPENING I DO NOT KNOW

I asked kindly if anyone had a problem with anyone here take it to a PM why ppl refuse to do that i cannot fathom at this point this is very sad and i do mean...VERY SAD.

I will say this again if you do not have anything good to say or cannot civilly discus things in a civil way don't reply at all pls just don't this thread has once again went off and veered into yet another flame fest this is not what it was meant for so pls i ask you kindly stop this non-sense and act accordingly pls?

[Soultrigger]

@Renvalt: Whether you were the one that came up with the challenge or not isn't the part that concerns or annoys me.

What annoys me is that, the moment I complete a challenge, the kneejerk reaction for other people is to find some little thing that invalidates the completed run with some pointless, arbitrary reason. I use extra tools to speed up the fight and minimize luck as a factor. Eliminating those things and recompleting the challenge wouldn't mean anything other than the fact I got lucky, because I already demonstrated that I can dodge his telegraphed attacks for a lengthy amount of time.

Minimizing luck for Falz is essential. There were plenty of times I ran into a situation where I was supposed to dodge 2 or 3 attacks at the same time, all of which are unsynchronized and random to predict (i.e. laser trajectory/speed). For a 10+ min fight, a single occurrence of that could ruin the entire run, and it can happen quite frequently. Not to mention as I've stated somewhere in pages 6~9, JG is inconsistent with Falz, meaning that if JG decided to just not want to work, have fun doing another run. And let's not forget Falz Elder is a 30 min timeframe. I don't have the luxury of getting an infinite amount of tries.

The thing about yours or anybody's "augmented" challenge (melee weapons only, no JG, etc.): for a lot of them, there really isn't a point. They don't really demonstrate anything a non-augmented run already does and, on their own, simply just prolong the run.
If you really wanted an augmented challenge, why not just go all out on the restrictions? 1* weapons, no units, no grind, no affixes, no mag. It's awfully convenient for people to go midway for their restrictions just to suit their playstyle.

tl;dr if you attempt no damage Falz Elder yourself, you'll understand how pointless and frustrating it is to limit yourself from tools and leave the success of your run up to chance.

[Z-0]

noob

how dare you used a ranged weapon on melee!!!!!!1!!!1!one

not like not taking damage really means anything anyway, as gigawutsu-san has said already.

[Soultrigger]

I do think "no damage" can be interpreted as skillful, depending on its context. More specifically, I would like to think no damage Falz can be an example of that.

But no damage boss rush: each boss is done at most in a few minutes. So killing a Rockbear in 30 seconds "without taking damage": that's not really something to write home about. Granted, people include it for the technicality of having a boss rush, but when you isolate each and every take, there's only a few bosses that actually highlight a player's skill. Problem is, these bosses are so old and underleveled that they really aren't that impressive given the game's current lifespan. And even doing AQ/rare variants of the bosses can also be deemed unimpressive because it's just artificial difficulty: only thing they have is more HP (their aggressiveness hasn't really changed since Hard mode...)

It's kind of like doing a compilation of a no damage stage run in Mega Man 9 versus completing Mr. Perfect (that is, a complete no damage run of the Wily Stages since you can save after the original 8 stages). In the former, it's very easy to constantly reattempt stages and get a perfect run within a few minutes. But for a lengthy amount of time when the stakes become high and reattempting it is annoying: I think that's impressive.

Note: before people think I have double standards, the point I was bringing up with augmented challenge was that when isolated, they don't mean anything substantially different from the original challenge.

[Z-0]

I will add AQ bosses are slightly more aggressive, specifically the Fangs since they move so fast. ;_;

[Zenobia]

I do think "no damage" can be interpreted as skillful, depending on its context. More specifically, I would like to think no damage Falz can be an example of that.

But no damage boss rush: each boss is done at most in a few minutes. So killing a Rockbear in 30 seconds "without taking damage": that's not really something to write home about. Granted, people include it for the technicality of having a boss rush, but when you isolate each and every take, there's only a few bosses that actually highlight a player's skill. Problem is, these bosses are so old and underleveled that they really aren't that impressive given the game's current lifespan. And even doing AQ/rare variants of the bosses can also be deemed unimpressive because it's just artificial difficulty: only thing they have is more HP (their aggressiveness hasn't really changed since Hard mode...)

It's kind of like doing a compilation of a no damage stage run in Mega Man 9 versus completing Mr. Perfect (that is, a complete no damage run of the Wily Stages since you can save after the original 8 stages). In the former, it's very easy to constantly reattempt stages and get a perfect run within a few minutes. But for a lengthy amount of time when the stakes become high and reattempting it is annoying: I think that's impressive.

Note: before people think I have double standards, the point I was bringing up with augmented challenge was that when isolated, they don't mean anything substantially different from the original challenge.

None taken rly this is true in all forms of a lot of games tbh also i forgot t GZ you before during all this mindless flame going on that should have not happened sense i asked before to keep it civil and take it to PM's which a lot of ppl missed.

All in all I am impressed and GZ on the run~

[gigawuts]

Right, it depends on context.

Cornelia's video was pretty good, staying in range and JGing lots of moves. That's a good video in my book. That's not elitism, that's not bias, that's just realism. If you have to pick between no damage and speed, I'll say speed is more impressive. But both at once are definitely more impressive.

No damage runs here are less about skill than some other games, and more about learning patterns. I'm glad someone linked dark souls (I do it all the damn time and don't want to become "that guy" by doing it even more), because that game requires more skill to read smaller tells for harsher penalties when you make a mistake. If PSO2 was more like dark souls, these vids would be awesome. But it's not. It's way, way, way easier. I mean, that's not a bad thing, but the ego stroking going on in this thread is pretty off-putting.

Which brings me to raising the point again that melee on its own isn't bad, it's just that it's subject to rules and limitations the other two damage types are not. Melee users are playing Dark Souls Lite, while everyone else is playing S+M2: The Game.

[Shadowth117]

I will add AQ bosses are slightly more aggressive, specifically the Fangs since they move so fast. ;_;

Yuuuup. I think AQ vader and quartz will be interesting :3

Edit: To be on topic a bit, what Soul did was rather impressive regardless of how he achieved it. Oh noes he used a Fo dodge! But its not as if he actually cheated in any way. As he explained, there's a lot of crap that comes at you on Elder. He's not exactly intended to be beaten by a single person.

I do hope that there are more difficult things to come though. Yes its not intended to be the hardest game known to mankind by any means, but having more difficult things in the game that require the player to be very good in order to beat them doesn't seem like a bad thing to me... unless the rewards for them are garbage >_>

[Soultrigger]

Oh, my understanding was that they just started in "rage mode". I've only done a grand total of maybe 5~10 AQ cycles since it came out (lol). Props to whoever does that, but I'm sure the time it takes to compile said runs isn't worth the e-peen display.

[gigawuts]

Well, it seems more like bosses have certain things tied to their level, including animation speed and the delays between attacks.

So faster animations means shorter tells for moves that have them, and moves that don't have tells go from executing almost instantly to executing before you can react because you're used to shorter delays on previous difficulties.

This is what makes banthers so hysterical at level 60.

[Zenobia]

Right, it depends on context.

Cornelia's video was pretty good, staying in range and JGing lots of moves. That's a good video in my book. That's not elitism, that's not bias, that's just realism. If you have to pick between no damage and speed, I'll say speed is more impressive. But both at once are definitely more impressive.

No damage runs here are less about skill than some other games, and more about learning patterns. I'm glad someone linked dark souls (I do it all the damn time and don't want to become "that guy" by doing it even more), because that game requires more skill to read smaller tells for harsher penalties when you make a mistake. If PSO2 was more like dark souls, these vids would be awesome. But it's not. It's way, way, way easier. I mean, that's not a bad thing, but the ego stroking going on in this thread is pretty off-putting.

Which brings me to raising the point again that melee on its own isn't bad, it's just that it's subject to rules and limitations the other two damage types are not. Melee users are playing Dark Souls Lite, while everyone else is playing S+M2: The Game.

LOL Funny you say that i just got fin doing some Dark Souls playtime and i can def see the comparison which is why i love HU/FI to this very day<3

Also the banther part are we talking about when they go aggressive mode meaning when there hp hits a certain amount also im under the impression that when you kill banthers queen he gets even more faster than what he was before.

[UnLucky]

What annoys me is that, the moment I complete a challenge, the kneejerk reaction for other people is to find some little thing that invalidates the completed run with some pointless, arbitrary reason.

The thing about yours or anybody's "augmented" challenge (melee weapons only, no JG, etc.): there really isn't a point. They don't really demonstrate anything a non-augmented run already does and, on their own, simply just prolong the run.

Nah, it's cool, you did good. I think it was more like "oh hey, when he did his run, he used a gunslash. hm, is it still a melee challenge?" and not like "wtf why would you use a ranged weapon you idiot, that totally invalidates your run, do it again."

But what really is the difference between a fun challenge and boring tedium? Is the point to destroy the AI with a honed perfection, or to prove you can repeatedly pace back and forth uninterrupted for hours?

[Zyrusticae]

No damage runs here are less about skill than some other games, and more about learning patterns. I'm glad someone linked dark souls (I do it all the damn time and don't want to become "that guy" by doing it even more), because that game requires more skill to read smaller tells for harsher penalties when you make a mistake. If PSO2 was more like dark souls, these vids would be awesome. But it's not. It's way, way, way easier. I mean, that's not a bad thing, but the ego stroking going on in this thread is pretty off-putting.
I don't know, dude. I really don't get much challenge out of the majority of Dark Soul's bosses anymore, while I'm still having trouble perfecting the bosses in PSO2. They just require a very different skillset from one another.

Dark Souls in particular is often pretty forgiving simply because you can often hide behind a good shield or armor with high poise, and if you have high vitality the attacks aren't even that punishing in most cases. There are a handful of really awesome bosses in there that should be mimicked more often, but most of them aren't like that. If anything, even more of Dark Soul's bosses are pattern-based and don't really ever get more interesting than dodge/block -> counter-attack, and once you get ahold of their pattern there's literally nothing else for you to do.

The demons are a bad example of this; your first time through you might be surprised by their reach or by their ability to track your movements, but after that it's just a matter of easily dodging their slow attacks and counter-attacking. Subsequent play-throughs bear this out; in fact, the only bosses that are even remotely a challenge on NG+ runs are Ornstein & Smough (because there's two of them), Manus (because he's fast, tough, and aggressive), annnd... that's about it, really. Even the Sanctuary Guardian suffers from being so incredibly squishy and easy to dodge/block. That's not to say he isn't fun, though.

It's funny: you wouldn't think I'd be very good at Dark Souls considering what I say on these forums, but yeah, shit's pretty damn simple after the first run. Oh, it's still fun because they do hit you hard when you make stupid mistakes, and they all look pretty sweet (yay for good artwork!), but, well, the challenge just isn't there anymore.

And then they have some pretty awful bosses like the Four Kings (pure DPS race), the Bed of Chaos (gimmicky insta-fail bullshit), the Moonlight Butterfly (a test of your ability to strafe-roll, nothing more)... it's actually kind of sad. I really hope Dark Souls 2 avoids stuff like this. It'll instantly be a superior game if it does.

Mind you, I haven't even tried a SL1 run in DS yet, but then, I don't really see the point. You're just forced to take longer (but not that much longer! Clubs hit HARD) to kill things and to dodge-roll for everything, and considering how OP the lightweight dodge roll is in DS even that's not that much of a challenge (and the Four Kings just become total bullshit since you can't win the DPS race and have to cheese it in some way).

But I've been convinced that going no-JG is indeed a pointless exercise worthy of no merit, so I'm just going to go ahead and use it. Killing things faster is more important and more impressive anyways, so that's what I'm going to do. I'll note that I do find hitting JG easier than dodging a lot of the time, but that may very well just be personal preference (and a side-effect of practicing parries in Dark Souls for so long? Heh).

Edit: While we're talking about Dark Souls, have a laugh! (http://i.imgur.com/SJEnWec.jpg)