I remember hearing that twin daggers were garbage?

[DreamState83]

What was the reason behind that claim? Just trying to do some research :)

[BIG OLAF]

Whoever said that has a malignant brain tumor. As for the 'reason', I'd say it was because the person in question didn't know how to use them correctly.

[DreamState83]

Whoever said that has a malignant brain tumor. As for the 'reason', I'd say it was because the person in question didn't know how to use them correctly.

This statement makes me glad I'm a part of a community that's willing to answer legit questions! I was playing around with them in normal and took rockbear down without ever touching the ground. I had a lot of fun doing it, too!

[gigawuts]

They're good for single-target, safe damage. They keep you above most of the fray, and many attacks that look like they should hit you don't actually reach more than the max jump height putting dagger users in the clear.

That said, that's their only real use. They're not good for spread out targets, or multiple targets. They're not good for things that move frequently. They're VERY short range. They're great for bosses and juggling a single enemy (or a few bunched up enemies), but not a whole lot else. Dubs will get you more mileage with trash mobs and weak spot thrashing.

[Hrith]

They're significantly weaker than other melee weapons, that's what must have caused that person to tell you they sucked. They're also harder to use and have many drawbacks other melee weapons do not, so yeah.

They're not garbage, though, but Gigawuts has covered it.

Rockbear is a good example of a boss that dies fast to twin daggers, De Malmoth and Wolgahda, too.

[Shinmarizu]

That and they're awesomely fun to use if you practice with them and use them well.

While double sabers are the go-to for damage, daggers are fun for those higher targets like Windiras, Quartz Dragon wings, and the like.

Giga's explained the case for daggers quite well.

[DreamState83]

I come from a long background (18 years-ish?) of fighting games, and the playstyle of twin daggers remind me a lot of single-frame combo connects and animation resets with air combos. I think the primary reason I like them so much is specifically because it takes more work :)

[Shinmarizu]

Then use those daggers like a boss, man. :D

[gigawuts]

Use what you like! Just don't lock yourself into one choice, and be mindful of what's effective and where. If you get an amazing pair of daggers, grab some +10 red dubs and +10 red knuckles too to somewhat put them on similar levels. Red weapons are nice and easy to +10, so you can buy them preground on the cheap if you hate the RNG as much as I do.

My best advice is to get all 3 gears for the class, even if you don't think you'll use them at first. They're definitely all good at their own thing. Fighter weapons have a lot of crossover, and dubs are notably better at their role than daggers and knuckles are at theirs, but daggers and knuckles still do things dubs can't quite the same. Daggers are more notable in their differences than knuckles are, though.

You can try to main daggers as much as possible, but definitely keep in mind the other weapons will have their applications (like deadly archer spam on a weak point, AOE with various double saber PA's, or just face smashing funtime with knuckles straight chargers).

[DreamState83]

Use what you like! Just don't lock yourself into one choice, and be mindful of what's effective and where. If you get an amazing pair of daggers, grab some +10 red dubs and +10 red knuckles too to somewhat put them on similar levels. Red weapons are nice and easy to +10, so you can buy them preground on the cheap if you hate the RNG as much as I do.

My best advice is to get all 3 gears for the class, even if you don't think you'll use them at first. They're definitely all good at their own thing. Fighter weapons have a lot of crossover, and dubs are notably better at their role than daggers and knuckles are at theirs, but daggers and knuckles still do things dubs can't quite the same. Daggers are more notable in their differences than knuckles are, though.

You can try to main daggers as much as possible, but definitely keep in mind the other weapons will have their applications (like deadly archer spam on a weak point, AOE with various double saber PA's, or just face smashing funtime with knuckles straight chargers).

Absolutely! I got all 3 weapon gears for hunter because you never know when something might be changed balance-wise. I'll do the same for fighter as well. As far as "maining" weapons go, I just look at what I'd have the most fun using while solo at any given time. When I'm in a group that's about efficiency I'll be busting out the dubs for sure ;)

Also, gigawuts, You've been a tremendous help to me as I learned the ins and outs of this game. Thanks for that!

[Poubelle]

I don't let my party members use daggers, because it's just not efficient.

They're not as bad as wired lancers, but if someone is using daggers too much, I'll definitely considering kicking them.

[DreamState83]

I don't let my party members use daggers, because it's just not efficient.

They're not as bad as wired lancers, but if someone is using daggers too much, I'll definitely considering kicking them.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Alisha]

maybe im just jaded because i abhored how OP mechguns were in pso/blade destruction in PSPo2/sazonde in infinity. but if your maining sword whats the point in even ever using the other 2? same thing with double saber on Fi.

[MetalDude]

Partisans are damn good. Or at least Speed Rain, Slide End, and Assault Buster are really good.

[DreamState83]

maybe im just jaded because i abhored how OP mechguns were in pso/blade destruction in PSPo2/sazonde in infinity. but if your maining sword whats the point in even ever using the other 2? same thing with double saber on Fi.

Just for me personally, this isn't really a hard enough game to take the maximum efficiency too seriously. I like creating challenges for myself like "I'm going to down this boss barehanded" to keep the fun going. From an effectiveness standpoint, I want to be versed in all weapons because you never know when or if balance changes will alter the power curve on one weapon or another.

Without variety, I'd probably get bored fairly quick :)

[gigawuts]

Absolutely! I got all 3 weapon gears for hunter because you never know when something might be changed balance-wise. I'll do the same for fighter as well. As far as "maining" weapons go, I just look at what I'd have the most fun using while solo at any given time. When I'm in a group that's about efficiency I'll be busting out the dubs for sure ;)

Also, gigawuts, You've been a tremendous help to me as I learned the ins and outs of this game. Thanks for that!

That's exactly right, if your interests don't shift then the entire game's balance just might. And I'm glad I've been able to help you out! Some enemies make some weapons difficult to use effectively, too.


maybe im just jaded because i abhored how OP mechguns were in pso/blade destruction in PSPo2/sazonde in infinity. but if your maining sword whats the point in even ever using the other 2? same thing with double saber on Fi.
Well, sword is good at some things, but can't grab as easily and doesn't have a vacuum move, and honestly after WL got the guard canceling buff on normal attacks, whenever that was, the balance did shift a bit for which one was more defensive. I find myself using them a LOT more often now. Partisan I find completely redundant though, but that's me.

Daggers let you play very defensively against certain pain in the ass bosses, and obviously let you hit high up targets dubs simply can't. Knuckles also have better burst damage and mobility. These are two things double sabers aren't outright better at, so if you don't care about these two things by all means use double saber on everything that moves.

Then there's also some people liking variety, and maybe preferring a weapon type for its aesthetics. Me, I love punching palming stuff with my elder fists, so I use them quite a lot.

[BlueCast Boy]

Twin Daggers are pretty good weapons, I can attack Vol Horn at the back with ease besides that the most common thing I use was Symphonic Drive against mobs and bosses...The things is that Sega made this weapon air based attacks.

[Skyly HUmar]

I don't let my party members use daggers, because it's just not efficient.

They're not as bad as wired lancers, but if someone is using daggers too much, I'll definitely considering kicking them.

Well i can kill a wonda in the desert aq with 1 holding current, even though i probably warp the enemy away, if i kill it quickly its all good. Just cuz youre annoyed that you dont get to hit anything doesnt mean a wl user is hindering the party (sword main).

[DreamState83]

Even us newer players can have some fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wVUO9Zj2k_o

:)

[Zyrusticae]

but if your maining sword whats the point in even ever using the other 2?
Man, what? Partisan is awesome. Faster, greater mobility, doesn't require charged gear to use charge PAs with any level of efficiency, plus you just look SO. BAD. ASS! Even if it never matches the DPS of fully charged sword gear + sonic arrow/over end, it's noticeably safer in general while dealing out damage. Plus, yes, with charged gear it dramatically out-ranges swords (especially with Slide End, which is a screen-clearing attack if I've ever seen one).

And WL hardly even has any overlap with swords, as it's primarily an AOE crowd control weapon (sword definitely doesn't have anything quite like Other Spin in its arsenal).

Fighter, on the other hand, I can't really say much about. Daggers seem too much of a niche weapon and knuckles still have that moronic hit-stop that's keeping them from reaching the highest levels of DPS in the game. Hopefully some balance changes are in store for them after they finish tuning hunter (haha! As if they'll ever actually be "finished").

[Blackheart521]

Another plus for daggers is whenever you attack you have an invincibility frame so there's the chance to basically effortlessly attack an enemy while deflecting their attacks

[BlueCast Boy]

True if your timing is right then you'll see a blue circle thing.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Yeah it's just the weapon is impractical in a lot of situations. Granted there are times when it's a brilliant weapon, but even DS which is largely single target oriented has its gear which can really rip through groups in close quarters.

[Coatl]

Anyone just find daggers just plain annoying to use? They are so impractical compared to double sabers and pretty much every other melee weapon. Their only real purpose is to really make for an alright side-arm to FI/HU, but then again I don't really know any situations where a dagger would be prefered over a sword.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

just when things are high up and chasing with sword is impractical.

...basically flying enemies and some boss weakpoints.

Other than that, Sword/DS/WL(maybe)

[jooozek]

dont know about other people
but when i use td sometimes
and get up really fucking high
the camera fucks up and i cant see myself anymore
whats that shit about?

[NoiseHERO]

They are garbage though

[BlueCast Boy]

I don't get it thou, maybe because of its damage output or the way it attacks?

[Bellion]

The damage output.

[Zenobia]

TAKE THAT SHIT TO QUARTS AND SAY FUCK YOU LASER RAIN<3

[Gama]

i like daggers, i think they are most effective against bosses, or flying enemies, since they do the "chase" thing and the gear works on air.

i usually do more damage with them against a boss then i do with a double saber.

[MetalDude]

dont know about other people
but when i use td sometimes
and get up really fucking high
the camera fucks up and i cant see myself anymore
whats that shit about?

This is a weird issue. I found that quickly toggling in and out of Third Person View will make the camera lock onto your character for the duration of your airtime.

[DreamState83]

This is a weird issue. I found that quickly toggling in and out of Third Person View will make the camera lock onto your character for the duration of your airtime.

I personally got so used to timing my hits that I don't even need the camera focus :x

Wish I knew this trick beforehand haha!

[ShinMaruku]

Twin daggers are garbage compared to Misty's weapons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_hOQ8UBYlc

[DreamState83]

Twin daggers are garbage compared to Misty's weapons
NG3: Razor's Edge - Kasumi Free DLC Trailer - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_hOQ8UBYlc)

After watching that trailer, daggers in this game seem like moving in slow motion >.>

[ShinMaruku]

Well they are. :P

[Zenobia]

Well they are. :P

Comparing NG3 to PSO2 how evil<3

[ShinMaruku]

Comparing NG3 to PSO2 how evil<3

I can do worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbQdxGe0sqU
Katanas in this game are going to be ass too. :E

[Zenobia]

I can do worse.
Metal Gear Rising: Final Boss HD - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbQdxGe0sqU)
Katanas in this game are going to be ass too. :E

Now I wanna replay this game again SEGA YOU GOT SERVED<3

[Lostbob117]

They're best to take ragnes down.

[Xaeris]

Nanomachines, son.

[ShinMaruku]

Nanomachines, son.
I could have gone pro if I hadn't joined the navy!

[Syklo]

An alternative to toggling in/out of TPS mode is Locking on/off for those camera issues.

TD's do need (or at least I'd like) a speed boost; even orchestra isn't fast enough (especially after watching that NG3 trailer....-drool-...reminds me of my C9 days)
And knuckles need to have a much more noticeable speed boost (namely hitstop)

Anyway, TD's DO NOT SUCK! Hear it from me.

[MetalDude]

That filthy, disgusting hitstop. Also, more range and reduced PP costs all around would seriously give Knuckles a serious edge if you wanted a weapon for really beating the hell out of targets quickly. I'd love that.

[Zenobia]

They neeed to be even faster!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWy8SPdoTOs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWy8SPdoTOs

[Alisha]

what is this hit stop you speak of?

[gigawuts]

what is this hit stop you speak of?

You briefly stop or slow down when your melee weapon strikes a target with every weapon, but each one has a different amount of stop. This is called "hitstop." Knuckles have a pretty noticeable amount of it, wands used to as well. Swords not so much. Knuckles even have it during their PA's, which is just depressing on something like pendulum roll which SHOULD be about raw damage output but just winds up being you slowing yourself down.

For me, the big fixes for knuckles (without actually modifying PA behaviors, just tweaking numbers) would be
Reduced PP for PA's or increased PP siphoned per swing.
And then reduced hitstop to far more reasonable levels.
Longer JA windows.

(It's silly that a weapon with the shortest range has the worst base recovery in the game, making it doubly bad next to others which WILL hit multiple targets for LOADS more PP.

[Alisha]

ok i know what your talking about. if i recall that was much more of a problem before i got knuckle gear. and certainly doesnt seem to be a problem for the multihit pa's.

[Kondibon]

Knuckles even have it during their PA's
A lot of things have it on PAs, the PAs that don't are usually long ranged (Speed rain and sonic arrow come to mind). But you're right Knuckles totally get the worst of it.

[gigawuts]

ok i know what your talking about. if i recall that was much more of a problem before i got knuckle gear. and certainly doesnt seem to be a problem for the multihit pa's.

Go use pendulum roll. Check it on enemies, and then just swinging at the air. Make sure you actually have the same gear levels when you do it.

[Alisha]

im not saying it doesnt exist im saying its not as bad as you and others make it out to be.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

They neeed to be even faster!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWy8SPdoTOs

DA FUQ?!

WHERE WAS SHE WHEN I PICKED THAT SORRY ASS LANN?!

[Syklo]

im not saying it doesnt exist im saying its not as bad as you and others make it out to be.
When you put it relative to every other weapon in the game, it is the worst for hitstop reasons (close to WL).

On it's own, it isn't that terrible, but it's still quite bad.

[Alisha]

personally i have more of a problem with t-dags almost non existant hit stop you almost have to time it instead of going of visual cue's

[Syklo]

personally i have more of a problem with t-dags almost non existant hit stop you almost have to time it instead of going of visual cue's
Almost non existant hitstop is GOOD, IMO.
And I time it by sound and rhythm more often than the visual cue :P

[Coatl]

If daggers had hitstop...oh god..
I can't even imagine how bad they'd be. <_>

[gigawuts]

personally i have more of a problem with t-dags almost non existant hit stop you almost have to time it instead of going of visual cue's

How is it harder if the visual cues never change?

[~Aya~]

All I have to say is that I am absolutely terrible with hunter... level 27 and I can't dodge to save my life. Hunter or fighter takes so much skill to master.. ♥♥


Big shout out to Hunters/Fighters everywhere.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Yeah we are pretty cool.

[Syklo]

Yeah we are pretty cool.
Totally.

Just FO's and RA's everywhere steal our spotlight.