Melees are just dead weight?

[Retto]

Hi all!

I've been playing PSO2 for a few months now (55/55), and I've become increasingly worried about the state of the melee classes in the game.

It would seem that there is absolutely no point in having a melee in your party. They do less damage to less targets and need to travel between monsters.

The tech & ranged classes do just as much damage or more from afar, and they are also more versatile. They can support themselves and the rest of the group with healing, buffs, and monster debuffs.

The tech & ranged classes also do not take much damage. They don't need to be in danger constantly like a melee class. They can deal huge amounts of damage to multiple enemies from a safe distance. Melees need to constantly guard or evade which (along with running between monsters) ruins their damage output.

I'm really worried about this, so I hope SEGA does something. I don't use a melee, but I can acknowledge that they are getting shafted here.

tl;dr There is literally no reason to play as a melee or include a melee in your party.

[Eveningxtar]

Can't Really say much for sure but the problem about Melee class being worst off compared to the other 2 classes have always seems to be the standard balance issue of most MMORPG and also it does not help that their is no real need for a tank in these game.
But still,I guess people still play the class for the challenge that melee class poses and gameplay style.
And to OP what would you suggest to balance out the issue for the melee class?

[gravityvx]

Melee are not dead weight, it is no different in any other game where ranged have it much easier than melee. Melee can avoid damage just like any other class just takes more effort, their damage is not even close to weaker than the rest and they have plenty of PAs that hit multi targets and do considerable damage very comparable to all classes but force. The only thing Fighter or Hunter lacks is the large amount of safety the ranged classes have, and slight PP issues nothing more nothing less. But, by your logic I would say there is no need for any class in a party besides Force. And sure, they need some slight tweaking but melee are definitely not even close to push overs.

[yoshiblue]

I still think the crit dash would be awesome to see. A shame I can't find a video to show as an example.

[Jakosifer]

No point in a melee if they're bad at it, which the majority of people who play it are. That said, easy game, have fun with the combat and forget everything else. Cuz real talk if you want to talk straight WRECKITRALPH FO/FI x 3 and maybe a Weak Bullet Slut.

[CelestialBlade]

If you're that much weaker than most other classes, you're probably just not building well. Take advantage of all the %-based boosts you get from HU and FI and your damage will be fine. I like to think Deadly Archer damage, even by itself doing about 3000 per hit to a weak point, is fairly competitive.

The other thing about melee is staying in front. I always try to be the lead person in a party to reduce the amount of time I'm running between enemies. I rarely have issues with FOs and such killing everything before I can get to it simply because by the time they're charging, I'm already at the next mob. You just gotta anticipate and make use of certain PAs to get ahead.

I play melee because it's fun and the combat is fast and reflexive, and while I agree that we need more melee improvements, I hardly feel like dead weight in parties. It's not all about pointing, clicking, and stats with melee--gotta use your head and reflexes too.

[reptile7383]

Maybe for normal mobs that are all dead before the melee even gets into attack range. Melees seem to hold there own against stronger enemies though. No idea what its like for max level players though.

[Z-0]

melee is pretty op

they do nab 2 faster than a ra/fi and 7 seconds slower than a fo/te

[yoshiblue]

This is what I mean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oox0oclJ6Pg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oox0oclJ6Pg

[D-Inferno]

Hunter and Fighter are not weak at all. Sonic Arrow and Over End from Swords, Assault Buster from Partisans, and Deadly Archer from Double Sabers are all powerful PAs. Perhaps you are using different PAs, or your Skill Tree isn't really that great. Gears (save for Wired Lance and Twin Dagger), JA Bonus, Fury Stance, Brave Stance, and Wise Stance are the most important perks for melee.

It's true that Melee needs to get close to the target, but things really only die before you reach them if the enemies themselves are too weak, or if they are extremely distant.

[Retto]

Look, I didn't say they were utterly helpless. I know that Hunter and Fighter have a few decent Photon Arts (a small few, most are useless) but that's not the point. They're dead weight when compared to the other classes.

Fact is, PSO2 is a game where you're repeatedly running the same instance hundreds of times to get the item you want. After a certain point, you start thinking about efficiency, and how you can cut time down per run.

If you're trying to maximize efficiency, there is no room for a melee in your party. That's just a fact.

I really have no idea how you can argue that this isn't a huge problem.

[gravityvx]

Look, I didn't say they were utterly helpless. I know that Hunter and Fighter have a few decent Photon Arts (a small few, most are useless) but that's not the point. They're dead weight when compared to the other classes.

Fact is, PSO2 is a game where you're repeatedly running the same instance hundreds of times to get the item you want. After a certain point, you start thinking about efficiency, and how you can cut time down per run.

If you're trying to maximize efficiency, there is no room for a melee in your party. That's just a fact.

I really have no idea how you can argue that this isn't a huge problem.

Again, by your logic there is no room for anyone but force. Max effeciency would be a full party of forces if youre talking about clearing areas. I don't even think you understand yourself at what you're trying to say. They aren't worse off than any other in clearing besides force.

[Inazuma]

4 forces, or 3 forces and 1 ranger would be the best party, depending on what quest you are doing. Replace any of those with a hunter and you are worse off. So yeah in that sense, hunters are dead weight.

Hunters spend a lot of time running toward enemies instead of killing them right away like the ranged classes do. Even many of the bosses move around a lot, preventing hunters from attacking.

One of the major problems with PSO2 is how incredibly weak the enemies are, bosses aside. Hunters would be a lot more useful if enemies didn't die within two seconds, usually from one or two ranged hits.

To make hunters worth using, Sega needs to either buff the enemies so they don't die instantly, and/or give hunters a way to quickly travel to enemies.

Also, Force/Fighter is broken. How come fighter is a better subclass for using techs than techter is? Also, weak bullet is even more broken than that. Even the toughest boss becomes cakewalk if there is a ranger in the party. Hunters don't have anything near as OP as forces and rangers do. Sega needs to put more focus on balancing.

[CelestialBlade]

There are problems with balance that need to be addressed, I just don't think they're as extreme as you're claiming. Especially considering you said you don't even play melee, and it's really hard to get an accurate grasp on a class only from observing others. Yeah, I don't disagree that a FO/TE with level 15 overpowered-and-soon-to-be-nerfed Zonde and a RA/GU with Weak Bullet and Elder Rebellion 15 are probably the most efficient things you can come up with, but inefficient != dead weight. If you're just stating that fact then fine, but that's not much of a thread without some discussion.

[Retto]

Again, by your logic there is no room for anyone but force. Max effeciency would be a full party of forces if youre talking about clearing areas. I don't even think you understand yourself at what you're trying to say. They aren't worse off than any other in clearing besides force.

I don't think you understand what you're saying.

You just agreed with me. If you want be efficient, you would never include a melee in your party. It's either all tech or tech+ranged.

Are you just saying "Yeah the balance is horrible but I'm OK with it"?

[Dnd]

Hunters don't have anything near as OP as forces and rangers do. Sega needs to put more focus on balancing.

Iron will - that is all

[UnLucky]

Go ahead of the group, don't chase stragglers or backtrack, and choose targets whose weakpoints are behind them. Try to coordinate with your ranged party members to target separate mobs.

Melee's damage output isn't bad, just their range.

[Shadowth117]

http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm20437620

There's one force run that just BARELY beats this that I know of. Melee isn't bad by any means particularly in TA. But the randomness of this game hurts it since they can't plan like they could in past games.

Edit: I'm just pointing out TA benefits by the way. I agree it tends to fall behind in general because of its lack of ranged moves on mobs(mobs beeing th.

[Inazuma]

Iron will - that is all

Hunters have many defensive abilities. So what? It's not like defense or dying actually means much in this game. What hunter needs, is some incredible offensive ability. That, or they need to make defense a lot more important, and tweak the hunter class so it can be more useful.

Let's say you are currently in a party consisting of one hunter, one force and one ranger. If the force leaves, you would think "Aw. Now we will be a lot slower in killing the enemies." If the ranger leaves, you would think "Aw. Now we will be a lot slower in killing bosses."

If the hunter leaves? "Oh? the hunter left? I didn't notice. Good, maybe a force will join."

It shouldn't be like that. The hunter needs their own OP ability that lets them contribute something valuable and unique to the party that force and ranger cannot.

[Tenlade]

While every other class has abilities or something to give them a role, hunters and fighters have nothing. Rangers and gunners have weakbullet and chain trigger to increase damage for the group. Forces and techers can heal others and buff them. All classes can increase their damage for dps. Whats hunter and fighter got that it can do that's unique? nothing.


Go ahead of the group, don't chase stragglers or backtrack, and choose targets whose weakpoints are behind them. Try to coordinate with your ranged party members to target separate mobs.

Melee's damage output isn't bad, just their range.

Ideally you want the force or techer in the front to zondeel mobs together for easy killings , not the hunters. Also you don't want to run ahead and miss drops, or trigger an emergency code before everyone is ready.

[Emp]

In most cases, fighters can challenge rangers/gunners for most dps. I definitely get out dmg'd as newman force in most multiparty areas or missions.

[gravityvx]

I don't think you understand what you're saying.

You just agreed with me. If you want be efficient, you would never include a melee in your party. It's either all tech or tech+ranged.

Are you just saying "Yeah the balance is horrible but I'm OK with it"?

Me pointing out your narrow minded logic doesn't equate to me agreeing to anything you've said. I understand exactly what I'm saying, seems like you're the one who doesn't understand that just because you have a side seat view of melee(and what seems to be a very narrow uninformed view at that), doesn't make you saying they are dead weight true at all. Max efficiency is four forces, so what all classes must be dead weight now right? Wrong, just like I said in my previous post on the first page which you obviously didn't read given that stupid comment about me not wanting tweaks to the melee classes, they all do very good damage both aoe & single target(which you pressed kind of hard that they didn't), melee only lack the range. Only forces have more clearing power than the rest.

That said, you could always throw suggestions on what way to improve the class since you seem to be abosultely sure they are so terrible in comparison to the others. This all I've got to say on the matter soooo I'm done.

[Z-0]

If you want to be efficient, yes, you would have a melee in your party.

[Retto]

You seem to be missing my point entirely. I mean, it's possible for a party to include a melee and be decent or good. The fact remains though that a party with melee will never be as good as a party with no melee. The less melee the better.

This is a huge design flaw.


While every other class has abilities or something to give them a role, hunters and fighters have nothing. Rangers and gunners have weakbullet and chain trigger to increase damage for the group. Forces and techers can heal others and buff them. All classes can increase their damage for dps. Whats hunter and fighter got that it can do that's unique? nothing.

Agreed, and if they want to fix Hunters and Fighters, they need to add something that does set them apart from other classes.

more difficult enemies with more health, buffing melee damage on certain PAs, and giving melees more gap closers (that WORK PROPERLY) is a start. But if they want to make melees really efficient in PSO they will need to give them some kind of unique abilities that secure their role in a group.

[HIT0SHI]

The hunter needs their own OP ability that lets them contribute something valuable and unique to the party that force and ranger cannot.

All that comes to mind with Hunter is a further distance increase with that Ride Slasher PA for swords to at least compete with the Rodeo Drive PA for Launchers or that ability the Dark Flow sword when the user had low health back in PSO1 but that would be OP for obvious reasons. :-?

[ScottMalkinson]

This is a very interesting discussion.

I came from DC universe online where the first 1.5 yrs of launch were dominated by ranged classes and melee was considered a burden. Recently with changes any DPS not running a melee weapon is seen as inferior.

SOE realized the discrepancy that existed between ranged and melee based fighting and gave melee a few buffs that could possibly work here. Characters using melee style weapons had increased resistance against enemy control effects and they also had a higher % chance to land critical hits.

[gigawuts]

Again, by your logic there is no room for anyone but force. Max effeciency would be a full party of forces if youre talking about clearing areas. I don't even think you understand yourself at what you're trying to say. They aren't worse off than any other in clearing besides force.

Man that is some interesting wording for a game with 3 damage types.

"Melee isn't any worse than any other in clearing besides force."

Let's turn that around while we're at it.

"Melee isn't any worse than any other in single target damage besides ranger."

F'in lol.

Anyway, melee is good at sustained toe to toe combat. Which is not very common. Where you find sustained toe to toe combat melee excels, but not much more than the other classes which also happen to be good at things besides sustained toe to toe combat.

[Preposterous Rhino]

I'm like a level 18 hunter and even in the beginning of the game you can tell that hunter is underpowered. I played hunter because ranger was boring and easy, and....well I just have to get around to force. As a noob, my opinion doesn't count much since I haven't seen the majority of the game, but the classes seemed pretty balanced in the original PSO from early on and in higher levels. Maybe if they let hunters use techs only for resta? I'm still a little butt-hurt about them taking that away in PSU and still having it removed in PSO2 lol. It is painfully obvious that melee is getting shafted atm though.

[Zyrusticae]

I'm sorry, I'm too busy one-shotting entire spawns in TA with assault buster to consider your opinion. Perhaps I will revisit this thread once I am finished.

[gigawuts]

Forces are sorry, they're too busy being good at more than just one gametype to care what you're doing or when you're reading threads.

[Alex305!]

While every other class has abilities or something to give them a role, hunters and fighters have nothing. Rangers and gunners have weakbullet and chain trigger to increase damage for the group. Forces and techers can heal others and buff them. All classes can increase their damage for dps. Whats hunter and fighter got that it can do that's unique? nothing.



Ideally you want the force or techer in the front to zondeel mobs together for easy killings , not the hunters. Also you don't want to run ahead and miss drops, or trigger an emergency code before everyone is ready.


Nail on the head right here. Maybe if they fixed the aggro skill but monsters are so passive in this game it wouldn't really matter. The only reason why hunter is so useless is because of how the enemies act in this game if they were half as aggressive as they were in PSO then it would be harder for forces to give damage without worry and buffing hate accumulation would save melee. Sometimes I question the designers thoughts on balance and combat...

I love melee but I had to quit it because it was a detriment to my running mates. Out of my 3 running mates 2 (including myself) was melee we slogged through missions and some we couldn't outright do. I switched my main to FO/FI and we have a much easier time becuase forces have a Borderline OP escape and can generate mass amounts of hate easy. I practically tank.

[Shinamori]

Melee has the best looking weapons. :V I've honestly though about starting over as a Force or Ranger, I know I can just switch, but I would want to do Koffie's CO again.

[Mekhana]

I've started playing hunter recently and I must admit they take a whole lot more skill to play than gunner or ranger.

If you just spam overend you can get punished severely. Also, some enemies are very mobile and you spend a lot of time chasing them down. The class is a lot more powerful than Ranger IMO, that is nothing but a Weak Bullet machine but you really need skill to be a good hunter.

I have a newfound respect for skilled Hunters.

[Shinamori]

I do Stun, Hit, Hit, Stun, Over End. I try block, but even that doesn't help much.

[supersonix9]

fury stance boost and zonde nerf, remember guys

[Jungo Torii]

Melees can be efficient.

It just takes shittons more work (as well as luck) to get to that point as compared to other classes.

I suppose I agree with you for the most part.

Maybe the whole fury stance change will make things better.

[Zeota]

Yeah over end puts out nice numbers but you pretty much have to buy an engagement ring for it since you can't cancel out of it. Definitely not worth using on anything that can throw or shoot at you unless they're within the swath of the first couple swings. In those situations, I've always preferred the "stick and move" approach involving sonic arrow to work better.

[Alex305!]

I've started playing hunter recently and I must admit they take a whole lot more skill to play than gunner or ranger.

If you just spam overend you can get punished severely. Also, some enemies are very mobile and you spend a lot of time chasing them down. The class is a lot more powerful than Ranger IMO, that is nothing but a Weak Bullet machine but you really need skill to be a good hunter.

I have a newfound respect for skilled Hunters.

I tip my hat to all fighters. Sometimes I try to fight troublesome bosses and mobs with knuckles and sway only and although it doesn't work out too well most of the time its really fun and challenging.

And what about this fury stance boost I hear of? If they don't change the skill to percent based it will always be lacking. Also zonde nerf wont hurt zonde much and will make it so only a few situations you would be better off with a tech besides zonde (which can be more troublesome to aim or not give as good of an SE although that doesn't mean much).

[Zyrusticae]

And what about this fury stance boost I hear of? If they don't change the skill to percent based it will always be lacking.
That's exactly what they're doing.

Hypothetical number so far puts it at 20% total damage at rank 10 (no Fury Stance Advance), but that's entirely hypothetical and is likely subject to change before implementation. Still, even that's a major improvement over 150 straight S-Atk (which, at cap, is at most around 10% more damage).

[gigawuts]

Yeah over end puts out nice numbers but you pretty much have to buy an engagement ring for it since you can't cancel out of it. Definitely not worth using on anything that can throw or shoot at you unless they're within the swath of the first couple swings. In those situations, I've always preferred the "stick and move" approach involving sonic arrow to work better.

You can guard cancel after the second swing. It's still a strong move with just the first two swings, great AOE and no need to charge the PA, meaning hyper armor immediately on activating the PA - plus it's actually more PP efficient than charging a nova strike half the time due to larger AOE and people not seeming to realize you have a larger net PP cost than just 30 PP due to stopping your PP from recovering while you charge an attack.

And, yes, the guard canceling is actually pretty viable in combat. I do it frequently against bosses I'm familiar with. Good times.

OE is probably the most versatile PA hunter has. It's good in the air, it's good on the ground, it's good for AOE, it's good for DPS, it's good for burst damage, it's good for fighting multiple things that will flinchlock or grab you, man this list just goes on and on. And I don't think it needs nerfing at all, either, I think other skills need to be made less vulnerable or situational.

[Feign]

So inside the OE vacuum, melee is just Peachy(®). Well, until you get mauled by a pack of wolves while rooted.

Even the new skill they're adding that gives bonus damage for consecutive JA hits doesn't address the issue(s); see Banshee, Quartz, and Wolga for "consumed a factory of Pixie Sticks happy fun chase time yay" and AQ Big V's best E.Honda impression while you're trying to attack said hands.

They should just take a lesson from That Other Non-Tab Targetting Action MMO That Shall Not Be Named (http://tera.enmasse.com/) and make melee's damage and gap closers overpowered since melee has far less damage up-time. We can address imba-issues later if/when we see actual PVP in PSO2.

[Meireles]

I have to disagree that hunters are not useful. Of course I may be biased because I normally main a Hu but with a good build (not built like a tank) their dps and taking of aggro (especially against bosses) can exceed that of all but the most stacked and spamming Fo-like builds.

...not to mention how much more rewarding (than other classes) it is to become a useful hunter after countless hours practicing soloing bosses, etc. I'm also not discrediting all those Fo and Ra-like classes -- there are plenty of people out there with unique and interesting builds. In fact, I simply love what they did to the Ra class for this game, it is a breath of fresh air to what I'm used to (Dreamcast PSO).

Still... class dynamics are going to change in the coming months as new skills, SP-reset, and weapon changes/creations occur.

[gigawuts]

So inside the OE vacuum, melee is just Peachy(®). Well, until you get mauled by a pack of wolves while rooted.

Even the new skill they're adding that gives bonus damage for consecutive JA hits doesn't address the issue(s); see Banshee, Quartz, and Wolga for "consumed a factory of Pixie Sticks happy fun chase time yay" and AQ Big V's best E.Honda impression while you're trying to attack said hands.

They should just take a lesson from That Other Non-Tab Targetting Action MMO That Shall Not Be Named (http://tera.enmasse.com/) and make melee's damage and gap closers overpowered since melee has far less damage up-time. We can address imba-issues later if/when we see actual PVP in PSO2.

I've always said, I'd rather everything be almost equally overpowered and fighting overpowered enemies than everything be either imbalanced or everything be almost equally underpowered.

Equally OP games can be crazy fun. If HU&FI was as good at movement and HULK SMASH as FO&TE was at AOE, and RA&GU was at single target, I'd be a happy cast.

[Sp-24]

Equally OP games can be crazy fun.
Only for so long, and they did intend to introduce PvP someday. If things are too OP and not balanced before that happens, threads like this will appear a lot more often than now, even if PvP is going to be as optional as grinding.
Since apparently we can't have PvE/PvP split for skills like in WoW

[RedRaz0r]

Melee is FUN to play.

[gigawuts]

Only for so long, and they did intend to introduce PvP someday. If things are too OP and not balanced before that happens, threads like this will appear a lot more often than now, even if PvP is going to be as optional as grinding.
Since apparently we can't have PvE/PvP split for skills like in WoW

Ha ha, true.

That's a great thought, though. A separate tree for PVP would really help to rebalance things and would probably make it much better all around. For PVE I've always loved the super crazy equally OP method of balancing, where everyone becomes a demigod. I loved how borderlands did that, it completely sold me on that idea.

[Mikessc88]

I think those people who have pride in their HU or FI are great but it is also apparent that they are at a disadvantage. I agree that they should give melee classes a damage boost to balance them out. Also on the issue of PvP. I am against it but I believe they could do it properly. Some games I have played make separate gear for PvP which would allow them to ultimately make PvP a separate aspect of the game letting those who want to PvP do it and those who don't can just ignore it.

[Zyrusticae]

I will be greatly amused if hunters become far and away the best TA class after zonde is nerfed and Fury Stance is buffed. They're already on-par as it is, so...

[Shadowth117]

I will be greatly amused if hunters become far and away the best TA class after zonde is nerfed and Fury Stance is buffed. They're already on-par as it is, so...

They will probably end up being better at certain types of missions, but fire has remained the best TA skill tree anyway. Still, that Nab2 video I posted before shows that they're almost even in that regard I'd say. I wouldn't be surprised if there were future TA's melee classes would beat forces in outright, but so far there hasn't been.

[mailsonds]

look at this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJm9tRr2-js"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJm9tRr2-js

[Alisha]

so i was doing normal TA yesterday and a rockbear hit me for 1 dmg and sent me flying. epic fail sega.

[gigawuts]

so i was doing normal TA yesterday and a rockbear hit me for 1 dmg and sent me flying. epic fail sega.

Melee is fine flinch is fine I don't want my favorite class to become faceroll you just need to use just guard which is the best defensive skill IN THE GAME.

[Sp-24]

so i was doing normal TA yesterday and a rockbear hit me for 1 dmg and sent me flying. epic fail sega.

Kick a rock or a football ball for a good analogy.

[Zyrusticae]

flinch is fine
Is there anyone on the forum who actually believes this?

I thought it was universally accepted that 1-damage KB is kind of stupid.

[gigawuts]

Yeah a few people have defended it at length.

[Zyrusticae]

Yeah a few people have defended it at length.
https://58fi4a.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p5AabZjUAxL_3VJ7JSkS5CAfQU34TM6UHaxlkwpJCXyuQD6x ZRNnSgA7p-FAOWN3Cmi5EQr0b3rg/What%20the%20gif%20doctor%20who.gif?psid=1

[gigawuts]

Yeah I know, it was in one of the earlier melee threads.

I don't even know man, I really don't even know. It was after I brought up how hilarious it was to get salvoed by 7 separate set sadinian swipes, saying it was fucking dumb was met with "I don't want my favorite class to be faceroll easy" and such.

Apparently one class being the worst at most stuff means if you can do almost as good as every other class you get magical bonus points and are then doing better.

[Zenobia]

Melee classes aren't dead wait I understand compared to the others classes they may seem inferior but HU/FI can handle there own and put out just as much damage as any other class out there.

Thing is about HU/FI thye need just about any kinda of % skill they can get to get the most dps out of em Furystance the gears from both HU/FI and FI's stances being a primes example of this.

I don't know if your just starting off in the game but as for me I do some good damage and I've played with some fellow HU/FI who are beastly ub what they do.

Nassa,Giga,SKYHumarl,Crystieon,Cornelia,Bellion, to name a few out der that I've played with and know how thye operate trust me HU/FI are far form dead weight.

[Arrow]

Melee classes are not that great against trash mobs, this is undeniably true.
My experience as a HU [SPOILER-BOX](and only HU because I got a lvling curse that affects me in all MMOs I've ever played [SPOILER-BOX][played a game for five years, got to total lvl 1k. friend of mine that was playing for slightly less than 5 yrs is now over 25k total lvl.][/SPOILER-BOX])[/SPOILER-BOX] has provided me with this outlook on life as a melee player: RA/FO/GU/TE nuke trash mobs faster than you can say "RAPPY!"
End result leaves me wanting ranged AoE attacks...purely because sometimes I wind up running around like a Rappy with its head chopped off and never reaching anything before it gets roasted, nuked, fried sent to the abysmal darkness, etc. Typically, If I run slightly ahead of my group, I can maybe send off an Other Spin and thus make quick work of that group of trash mobs (or set it up for said range players to obliterate the cluster).

Now where Melee is most "useful" (and also most likely to die a very painful death because dodging can only keep you alive for so long) is in those glorious boss battles.
Let's face it: Once you get a gamer's high from the intensity of what you must do as a melee character...you become a freakin' god of war. The finger you use to press that evade button is twitching like mad, you got that insane adrenaline rush reflex boost, your thumbs are moving like freakin' ninjas on a caffine high.
There are no rules here, a boss must die.
Take up your weapon of choice, and begin the dance of death.
Unleash your inner warrior.
Take up the sacred weapons of yore that have been in use since primitive times.
Slay the dragon, save your damsel in distress,
because, bitch, THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
*insert WL grapple charge here, because nothing beats a boot to the head*


....Ok so I got carried away there....
uh yeah so bottom line IMO, melee is good for bosses if you got mad reflexes. Otherwise I would say you would almost want to sub FO/TE just to get the long range AoE attacks for trash mobs.

[ThePendragon]

Marlu, is that you?

[UnLucky]

Now where Melee is most "useful" (and also most likely to die a very painful death because dodging can only keep you alive for so long) is in those glorious boss battles.

There are no rules here, a boss must die.
Take up your weapon of choice, and begin the dance of death.
Unleash your inner warrior.
Take up the sacred weapons of yore that have been in use since primitive times.
Slay the dragon, save your damsel in distress,
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

And then the boss falls over halfway into a 30 hit combo chain

[Arrow]

And then the boss falls over halfway into a 30 hit combo chain

Yeah, dodging only can get you so far I suppose...
That's pretty much when you learn to run for your life (or try to) and basically stand slack-jawed as your three friends who are ranged nuke the crap outta the boss and end its pitiful existence as you were turning tail and running...

alas the argument stands =w=;

[ReaperTheAbsol]

Melee classes aren't dead wait I understand compared to the others classes they may seem inferior but HU/FI can handle there own and put out just as much damage as any other class out there.

Thing is about HU/FI thye need just about any kinda of % skill they can get to get the most dps out of em Furystance the gears from both HU/FI and FI's stances being a primes example of this.

I don't know if your just starting off in the game but as for me I do some good damage and I've played with some fellow HU/FI who are beastly ub what they do.

Nassa,Giga,SKYHumarl,Crystieon,Cornelia,Bellion, to name a few out der that I've played with and know how thye operate trust me HU/FI are far form dead weight.

What about me?
You forgot about me.
How could you possibly forget about me?
Am I that easily forgotten?
You must sill be mad.
Are you mad?
</3

On topic.

The pros and cons of being a Hunter/Fighter (at least the way I see it) are more or less situational, but there's always an exception to any given event.
Sometimes you shine bright, and other times you glow like a well polished turd.
I wouldn't go as far as stating that the class as a whole is a burden, but there is room for improvement nonetheless.

k

[Zenobia]

What about me?
You forgot about me.
How could you possibly forget about me?
Am I that easily forgotten?
You must sill be mad.
Are you mad?
</3

On topic.

The pros and cons of being a Hunter/Fighter (at least the way I see it) are more or less situational, but there's always an exception to any given event.
Sometimes you shine bright, and other times you glow like a well polished turd.
I wouldn't go as far as stating that the class as a whole is a burden, but there is room for improvement nonetheless.

k


No one dare challenges the Reaper~

[Gen2000]

No point in a melee if they're bad at it, which the majority of people who play it are.

This, I stopped reading thread only this far post wise because most likely gonna turn into another melee bitch fest further in.

[Omega-z]

One thing about the Stat's being changed to % for HU. This Could be a nerf to what you had before until you get to a certain point in stat's or have a high enough %. Since it could be most likely base on your stat's. So, if you get Fury Stance and Guard Stance being level 10 at level 18 & 13 at 20% more will be under power'd still to what they had before since it would be 40% for both to be correct in boosted power in both Fury Stance and Guard Stance. But a over hull to offensive and defensive % would be best like 200% increase to both would be better in the long run, Just my 2 cents.

Update: lol it would be pretty funny if they changed the stat's from 150/200/ plus 50 for each to 150% for FS and 50% for the up's for a total of 300%. then GS to 200% plus 50% for a total of 250%. Now they would have to change the Weapon abilities that up those to 30%/35%/40% instead of plus 30/35/40. That would be nice, but watch it'll be just a pipe dream since I'am afraid that Sega will mess it up.......maybec.

[kkow]

I agree with HU but what about FI? They seem to do just fine in mobility and can stay in the fight easier. Shift dodge>block in my opinion.

[Kondibon]

Marlu, is that you?

Been waiting for an excuse to use these.

[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/ZDQVxYK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VjHYNFS.jpg[/spoiler-box]

[TehblackUchiha]

Something that will never happen:

It would be sweet if there was an overlimit ability like in tales games such as vesperia where your defense increased, you could not be flinched by enemies, and you could use/chain unlimited artes even spam the same one 100 times then be able to use a ougi. In pso2 offense, and defense would increase, no flinch by enemies, PP consumption reduced to 1/3 then some cool ougi could be used like suv weapons from psu or even something like hunars overend. Again will never happen but i can dream can't I :-o.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAFwMFBYbvs

[Zenobia]

Something that will never happen:

It would be sweet if there was an overlimit ability like in tales games such as vesperia where your defense increased, you could not be flinched by enemies, and you could use/chain unlimited artes even spam the same one 100 times then be able to use a ougi. In pso2 offense, and defense would increase, no flinch by enemies, PP consumption reduced to 1/3 then some cool ougi could be used like suv weapons from psu or even something like hunars overend. Again will never happen but i can dream can't I :-o.

Tales of Vesperia - Yuri's Artes 220-hit (no repeated artes) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAFwMFBYbvs)

Loved the Tales Series btw played everyone fo em~.

Wouldn't mind if HU had like some kinda iron skin active skill where you wont get flinched for a certain amount of time would be cool but as of right im doing fine HU/FI is my life and I always find this class engaging in all aspects id rather be in the front line always having something to do and worrying about the constant danger then in rear but that just me~.

[TehblackUchiha]

I always find this class engaging in all aspects id rather be in the front line always having something to do and worrying about the constant danger then in rear but that just me~.

I feel the same as a Fi/Hu both classes are the most fun to me. If melee classes were to ever become useless or elitist started kicking people out of parties for being melee, I would probably drop this game or play the next best engaging class, gunner. I seriously hope Sega gives hu and fi some overpowered skill or unique trait to accommodate the skill required to play those classes. Or if REAL special abilities were to come to the game Hu's and Fi's would get the majority, just my opinion.

[Rien]

Hunters need a buff.

Double their s-attack power. That'll do something!

[BlueCast Boy]

Nah they need more speed or Rush, the damage is just fine once you know what your doing except they need buff some Twin Dagger PA damage and Knuckles

[Zenobia]

Hunters need a buff.

Double their s-attack power. That'll do something!

Not just our s atk our s def too in and of the pso series HU were the prime front liners and being able to both give out and take damage was our prime role if they can do this and buff war cry so it works the way it should be I wouldn't mind getting it as I take pride in being able to hold aggro.

I remember in pso or pso bb whichever one HU's could have that one strongest gun forgot the name meant for RA's and you could shoot that sucker one time and annihilate everything in the room and just move on LMFAO~.

[Rien]

Make Guard take up less PP for guarding too.

[connor_the_kid]

i like how SEGA goes 'we're acknowledging the hunter balance issues'

**OOOHH**

we're gonna tweak fury stance a bit!(like that will solve anything really)

womp womp womp

[Rien]

And guard stance too '-'

[Mekhana]

Honestly I think Rangers (or Assault Rifles) are in a dire need of a buff.

Hunters are strong enough, they just require more skill to play.

[omgwtflolbbl]

How would you feel if every melee weapon got some kind of PA that was some kind of ridiculously awesome gap closer?

[Rien]

When it comes down to SEGA, you must follow Murphy's law.

It will go wrong. Horribly wrong.

[gigawuts]

Make Guard take up less PP for guarding too.

Actually this is a big one - guarding is finicky as hell.

Just Guard needs some work. Having it give a larger angle of protection would be ideal. It seems like it covers about...120 degrees? That isn't actually much. It should be 180 minimum, honestly, and full top & bottom. SO many attacks have buggy hitboxes that will have the enemy's limb swipe blatantly in front of you and connect from above, below, behind, or to the side of you. It's incredibly obnoxious.

Wider angle of coverage, and regular guard not soaking up so much freaking PP. I'd like it if regular guarding consumed maybe 30% of your remaining PP, instead of a flat 20. Some multihit moves are blatantly anti-melee, quartz dragon in particular stands out as just plainly obnoxious in that regard.

[BlueCast Boy]

Seriously Hunters are just fine once you know how to play them its that they need some time for approach and mostly for defensive situation mostly I do evade and if you have perfect block then there's no problem thru that (if your timing is right). What claass that really needs damage is rangers since not everything relies with WB.

[Mekhana]

Seriously Hunters are just fine once you know how to play them its that they need some time for approach and mostly for defensive situation mostly I do evade and if you have perfect block then there's no problem thru that (if your timing is right). What claass that really needs damage is rangers since not everything relies with WB.

I agree completely.

[Zenobia]

Never knew Rangers needed a buff I mean you have WB?

Coupled with GU your prime boss killers the thing is as of now many parties will welcome a RA before a HU why you may ask?

Ppl see it as HU/FI not having anything worth contributing to the party I've heard some say they would want an RA before a HU any day in their party any day hence WB

Pretty much while FO kill mobs faster and RA/GU compliments with WB CT and CF you can see the problem.

I wouldn't be surprised if they start making all FO or FO RA parties excluding HU from joining I've seen this once alrdy.

It pretty much comes down to consistency.

[UnLucky]

RA get the greatest damage boosts in the game, what? Rifle has some devastating PAs.

Blocking shouldn't cost any PP. It's not even complete damage avoidance. Maybe halt PP regen during it or cost 1PP/s. Put a PP cost on counters or parries, not blocks.

[gigawuts]

Yeah it's a thing now to say ranger has really bad damage because WB can't be applied to everything at all times.

Lol I know, I don't get it either.

edit: I think the biggest issue with HU is, honestly, a lack of expansion on its core concepts.

Why does dedicated melee have the least fleshed out concepts? Fury Combo is a great addition that really should have been in sooner. Hunter needs something to expand on just guard too. Shouldn't JG do more than what it does at level 4? Shouldn't it give you maybe a bit of health or HP, or inflict stun on enemies hurt by the JG? That's the purpose of leveling up in a game with skilltrees - new abilities or expanded abilities. HU's real problem, besides mobility, is that it's the same early game as it is endgame, if not worse because it has no multiplier skills anywhere close to as strong as any single other class - barring perhaps GU without a sub. HU is the only class that realistically needs to keep up with the abilities and speeds of enemies, just by nature of proximity, and it's the only one that doesn't really get anything of any real significance past about level 30 besides iron will.

[connor_the_kid]

lol the people saying ranger should be buffed and melee is fine

what planet are you people living on? i mean really?

quote of the day by mekhana. screw melees, JUST BUFF MY MAIN because im the only one who matters

[gigawuts]

^ That is an old ranger mentality that went away a while ago, but is unfortunately resurfacing. Aaah, the big RA vs. HU thread.

[Zenobia]

Yeah it's a thing now to say ranger has really bad damage because WB can't be applied to everything at all times.

Lol I know, I don't get it either.

edit: I think the biggest issue with HU is, honestly, a lack of expansion on its core concepts.

Why does dedicated melee have the least fleshed out concepts? Fury Combo is a great addition that really should have been in sooner. Hunter needs something to expand on just guard too. Shouldn't JG do more than what it does at level 4? Shouldn't it give you maybe a bit of health or HP, or inflict stun on enemies hurt by the JG? That's the purpose of leveling up in a game with skilltrees - new abilities or expanded abilities. HU's real problem, besides mobility, is that it's the game early game as it is endgame, if not worse because it has no multiplier skills anywhere close to as strong as any single other class - barring perhaps GU without a sub.

Liking the way you think Giga your on to something wouldnt mind if the JG skill has some kinda hp syphon noted onto it pretty badass.

Like I said before also wouldn't mind if we had some kinda active skill that lets us take damage without getting flinched,but this can be a hit or miss I suppose just my thoughts on that though.

I reaaaaallly Wanna see the FI status affect side of the tree feel's like maybe when those skill resets come out i'll start fucking around with it.

[Bellion]

Lol, anyone that claims RA has bad damage without WB must not know how to hit weakpoints or heads, or they have really bad weapons. For something like a Gilnach or Windira that have no weakpoints and low headshot damage multipliers; that's where they'll lack in damage without Weak Bullet.

[gigawuts]

If stances were properly expanded on, that would be pretty good. Adding flinch immunity/resistance/something to one of the stances would be great (preferably fury stance, but I could understand guard stance or even only while neither HU stance is active) would be a no brainer for me - I'd be all over that. Perhaps a real buff for war cry, to match showtime's gear boost?

FI's chase tree should be pushed to the side and expand into a full tree of its own, with a number of unique status effects to bring to the fight. Maybe do that for a third melee class? I dunno, just spitballing.

[UnLucky]

Well, Gunners can get 130% from TMG Gear, 2x 115% at close range, and 120% with the juggle(but no one gets that)

And then chains are 270% damage with maxed Chain Finish. With zero combo. A reasonable combo nets 400%.

And they say Gunner sucks without a Ranger sub...

[Zenobia]

Yeah def whenever they decide to make war cry worth to pump some sp in and a Stoic active skill hoho man I would enjoy every moment of that also whats the aggro hold on showtime anyway? I plan to try that out my cast soon.

[connor_the_kid]

and all of that aside, making an argument and saying like "well without weak bullet, ranger is this"but you DO have weak bullet ffs. you can't just ignore something so huge like that. hunter and fi have nothing like that which makes them unique or useful

[holmwood]

Games would be a lot more fun if people were bad at math.

[gigawuts]

I know a lot of people who are really bad at math in this game, and it ranges from "ignorance is bliss" to "oh my fucking god that is not how that works stop saying that."

Yeah def whenever they decide to make war cry worth to pump some sp in and a Stoic active skill hoho man I would enjoy every moment of that also whats the aggro hold on showtime anyway? I plan to try that out my cast soon.

Get a hold of xaeris, if I recall he invested into it. It's pretty much exactly the same as war cry, but with a gear rate boost.

[Zenobia]

I know a lot of people who are really bad at math in this game, and it ranges from "ignorance is bliss" to "oh my fucking god that is not how that works stop saying that."


Get a hold of xaeris, if I recall he invested into it. It's pretty much exactly the same as war cry, but with a gear rate boost.

Noted.

[omgwtflolbbl]

The problem with ranger, for me personally, is that it's boring. And it's boring BECAUSE of weak bullet. In a party, they're extremely effective with weak bullet, but that doesn't change the fact that it's pretty boring to use. You weak bullet a spot, you unload your PP in one go (ideally, for the JA bonus without using any more weak bullets), and sit around fiddling your thumbs until you have enough PP to do something useful again or your original weak bullet runs out. I sometimes wonder if I should make a shortcut word that says, "I'm not afking, I just have no PP!" because I'm just running around doing nothing while everyone is smacking the boss and looking busy.

Keeping a triple damage zone on a boss is extremely powerful and really broken imo, but that doesn't help change the fact that it's insanely boring as a ranger with weak bullets loaded. Going afk should not be more beneficial to my team than actually attacking, but once I'm out of PP after the first weak bullet, that's how it is.

I guess I'm just not that big a fan of having so much power put into one thing that it basically defines your class, but at the same time encourages you not to do anything.

[Bellion]

Cetus Proi photon blast can help with that problem. It's how I survive as a Weak Bullet slave.

[gravityvx]

The problem with ranger, for me personally, is that it's boring. And it's boring BECAUSE of weak bullet. In a party, they're extremely effective with weak bullet, but that doesn't change the fact that it's pretty boring to use. You weak bullet a spot, you unload your PP in one go (ideally, for the JA bonus without using any more weak bullets), and sit around fiddling your thumbs until you have enough PP to do something useful again or your original weak bullet runs out. I sometimes wonder if I should make a shortcut word that says, "I'm not afking, I just have no PP!" because I'm just running around doing nothing while everyone is smacking the boss and looking busy.

Keeping a triple damage zone on a boss is extremely powerful and really broken imo, but that doesn't help change the fact that it's insanely boring as a ranger with weak bullets loaded. Going afk should not be more beneficial to my team than actually attacking, but once I'm out of PP after the first weak bullet, that's how it is.

I guess I'm just not that big a fan of having so much power put into one thing that it basically defines your class, but at the same time encourages you not to do anything.

Ranger is boring because it lacks any real effort besides steping back or spaming jump with launcher, having to need a lot gear with pp to be effective with your rifle while not having to sit around with weak bullet charges up and or on target and then they feel soooooooo slow after playing gunner. Also, ranger is over the top infuriating because of this games crap tastic hit boxes, seriously this is the first game I've actually almost raged over a damn hit box. Weak Bullet makes the entire game in general a snore fest, not just for rangers imo when it comes to bosses. I could say the same things about gunner, but at least they are stylish about being a op single target boring ranged class.

[gigawuts]

Rifle really is very good once you get your hands on a decent +10 10*. If I hadn't +10'd a latria rain I never would have tried it out again, but I did and it makes a huge difference that I didn't even expect.

That said, I wish weak bullet was only 50% extra damage, and rifles had a bit better base damage instead of what it is now. Weak hit advance could also use a nerf with rifles getting another bit of oomph to compensate for that, 56.25% extra damage ON TOP OF the 3x damage of weak points is pretty insane. I get that ranged is meant to be great at single target but holy shit the numbers that go flying are pretty absurd. Standing snipe is another skill that is a bit too much of a gain for something of that level of difficulty - staying exactly in place for two consecutive attacks. At least let standing snipe apply to striking or something.

[Macman]

Keeping a triple damage zone on a boss is extremely powerful and really broken imo, but that doesn't help change the fact that it's insanely boring as a ranger with weak bullets loaded. Going afk should not be more beneficial to my team than actually attacking, but once I'm out of PP after the first weak bullet, that's how it is.
If you're THAT concerned about sitting around waiting for your PP to refill, maybe give a techer subclass a shot with PP Convert. Not sure how well it would mesh with the rest of ranger gameplay, or if you're relying on a different subclass' stats, but it would alleviate some of the downtime you experience between WBs.

[gravityvx]

Speaking of standing snipe, does the skill activate in the air as long as youre standing still? Example would be elder rebellion, I've got two skill trees one with lots of ranged atk up one with maxed standing, I only used this for the first weak bullet charge on my gunner with my rifle out which seems kinda silly, so now I'm wondering if it benefits mid air stand still on other PAs as long as you're not moving even in air.

[omgwtflolbbl]

Ranger is boring because it lacks any real effort besides steping back or spaming jump with launcher, having to need a lot gear with pp to be effective with your rifle while not having to sit around with weak bullet charges up and or on target and then they feel soooooooo slow after playing gunner. Also, ranger is over the top infuriating because of this games crap tastic hit boxes, seriously this is the first game I've actually almost raged over a damn hit box. Weak Bullet makes the entire game in general a snore fest, not just for rangers imo when it comes to bosses. I could say the same things about gunner, but at least they are stylish about being a op single target boring ranged class.

Well, at least when I'm on my hunter smacking a weak bullet'd zone, I know I can at least continue smacking it afterwards. When I'm on my ranger, I could be browsing reddit for the next 10 seconds after using my PP and I'd still be contributing as much. I don't know how any ranger could stay sane with having less than 120 PP for the quadruple sneak shooter or whatever before you go off into afk land.

I would really prefer it if weak bullet got revised, base damages on ranger weapons went up, and weak hit advance got nerfed.

I thought that standing snipe requires that you've been standing/floating in place for a set amount of time, not just that you stay still since the last attack. When I satellite aim spam in midair, I usually see standing snipe bonus kick into effect on the 3rd satellite aim.

Elder rebellion back to back in midair will see standing snipe trigger on the second elder rebellion. I still haven't been able to find a good way to get standing snipe to apply its bonus to chain trigger as a gunner, though. Double midair elder rebellion only gets the bonus on the second one, and at that point you only get 1-2 shots off from the buffed PA before chain trigger wears off. I haven't tried double satellite aim into elder rebellion, though, and I think it might work better.

[Zenobia]

Cool thing about RA is that w/e is subclassed with it makes for some pretty interesting gameplay RA compliments anything subclassed with it.

[HeartBreak301]

This is kind of a personal rant/thought so I apologize in advance but...

Playing HU/FI the biggest thing I can say the melee classes need is mobility. A run speed increase (even if it's a stance that gives mobility at the expense of S-def or something) and a double jump are really needed.

I can't keep up with trash mobs unless I get lucky with an Over End or something and that's fine, I'm not a force so I don't expect to kill trash mobs the fastest. But bosses is where I start to get a bit irritated. As it was mentioned earlier, Quartz Dragon is a huge frustration to fight on a melee class, the same goes for Banther/Banshee when they're not stunlocked into oblivion. That's just run speed issues though.

One of the most frustrating things for me is my inability to hit certain parts of bosses most of the time while the other classes just hammer away. Zeshrayda is the biggest offender here when trying to bust his cannons.

Even as the "boss killer" class I feel lacking compared to other classes simply because I can't keep up with the boss or hit it where I need to. Granted when I land a full Over End or something they're really feeling the pain but I can't help but feel while I was trying to get lucky enough to do that to keep up a Force has just been hammering away on it all day long without any effort.

And I guess my last complaint would be Gears, Sword Gear in particular. One of the most infuriating things that I've experienced is needing to rev up to be able to deal my max damage while other classes are already vastly outdamaging me by using fully powered attacks from the start.

As a Hunter I do feel a bit underpowered but I also feel I get the most enjoyable class. Actually FIGHTING something rather than just looking at it and having it die is a pretty rewarding experience, especially against bosses. I never feel like I'm dead weight but I never feel like I'm more valuable than another Force.

Also this always comes to mind...
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/1U2wzGR.jpg[/spoiler-box]

[Alex305!]

This is kind of a personal rant/thought so I apologize in advance but...

Playing HU/FI the biggest thing I can say the melee classes need is mobility. A run speed increase (even if it's a stance that gives mobility at the expense of S-def or something) and a double jump are really needed.

I can't keep up with trash mobs unless I get lucky with an over end or something and that's fine, I'm not a force so I don't expect to kill trash mobs the fastest. But bosses is where I start to get a bit irritated. As it was mentioned earlier, Quartz Dragon is a huge frustration to fight on a melee class, the same goes for Banther/Banshee when they're not stunlocked into oblivion. That's just run speed issues though.

One of the most frustrating things for me is my inability to hit certain parts of bosses most of the time while the other classes just hammer away. Zeshrayda is the biggest offender here when trying to bust his cannons.

Even as the "boss killer" class I feel lacking compared to other classes simply because I can't keep up with the boss or hit it where I need to. Granted when I land a full Over End or something they're really feeling the pain but I can't help but feel while I was trying to get lucky enough to do that to keep up a Force has just been hammering away on it all day long without any effort.

And I guess my last complaint would be Gears, Sword Gear in particular. One of the most infuriating things that I've experienced is needing to rev up to be able to deal my max damage while other classes are already vastly outdamaging me by using fully powered attacks from the start.

As a Hunter I do feel a bit underpowered but I also feel I get the most enjoyable class. Actually FIGHTING something rather than just looking at it and having it die is a pretty rewarding experience, especially against bosses. I never feel like I'm dead weight but I never feel like I'm more valuable than another force.

I agree 100. Even with decent equip I still cannot take hate/aggro from a similarly geared force user so boss battles are a pain and my time is spent chasing the boss. This game is like 80% trash mobs I just spend my time fighting whatever the forces leave behind for me. ;_; Sword gear is one of my biggest complaints the only time I see it get to level 3 is boss fights or EC's.

[Kondibon]

I agree 100. Even with decent equip I still cannot take hate/aggro from a similarly geared force user so boss battles are a pain and my time is spent chasing the boss. This game is like 80% trash mobs I just spend my time fighting whatever the forces leave behind for me. ;_; Sword gear is one of my biggest complaints the only time I see it get to level 3 is boss fights or EC's.
This is still relevant.

[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/gP9Qzl0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hPp25qH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZDQVxYK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VjHYNFS.jpg[/spoiler-box]

[Rien]

I think, at this rate, hunters should be buffed so that the game goes like this:

Ranger + Force storm through everything
If it's not dead by the time Hunter reaches it, Hunter gets the right to one-shot it, therefore balance party '-'

[Syklo]

I think, at this rate, hunters should be buffed so that the game goes like this:

Ranger + Force storm through everything
If it's not dead by the time Hunter reaches it, Hunter gets the right to one-shot it, therefore balance party '-'
HU: You RA's & FO's take too long.
-Kicks QD in the foot-
-kills-

[darthvader]

hunter/fighter have more weapons variety to use than other classes, so use that. more expensive than other classes but they are more versatile than any others.

http://nicotter.net/watch/sm20057014

old video, watch that and give comment on how hunter/fighter is weak. Sure in a party of 4 force will have advantage of mobs and gunner will have advantage over bosses (though they should be doing support with wb instead), but hunter/fighter can do all of that alone quite decently. even in mpa they are barely catching up with forces using sonic arrow spam while gunner can't do shit. Elder rebellion better than melee at mpa is bs, all it does are throwing enemies far away with their last blast and canceling their last blast will waste their pp without giving enough damage.

[gigawuts]

hunter/fighter have more weapons variety to use than other classes, so use that. more expensive than other classes but they are more versatile than any others.

http://nicotter.net/watch/sm20057014

old video, watch that and give comment on how hunter/fighter is weak. Sure in a party of 4 force will have advantage of mobs and gunner will have advantage over bosses (though they should be doing support with wb instead), but hunter/fighter can do all of that alone quite decently. even in mpa they are barely catching up with forces using sonic arrow spam while gunner can't do shit. Elder rebellion better than melee at mpa is bs, all it does are throwing enemies far away with their last blast and canceling their last blast will waste their pp without giving enough damage.

Google first result:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr9QvD4vwV4

The player used a slower mode of traveling.

Anything HU can do FO can do better. FO can do anything better than HU.
"no it can't"
Yes, it can.

[darthvader]

Google first result: PSO2 ???????? ?????????? VH ?? (FoFi) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr9QvD4vwV4)

The player used a slower mode of traveling.

Anything HU can do FO can do better. FO can do anything better than HU.
"no it can't"
Yes, it can.

lol if there is any video showing force soloing vol dragon better than hu/fi with an all class twin dagger then i'll believe force is better. and the point of my post was to prove that melees aren't shit

[Syklo]

lol if there is any video showing force soloing vol dragon better than hu/fi with an all class twin dagger then i'll believe force is better. and the point of my post was to prove that melees aren't shit
I thought the point is that melees aren't shit, they're relatively shit.
In other words your point didn't need proving

[HeartBreak301]

If there is one fun thing about being a Hunter that's amazing, it's being absolutely unstoppable. I already have an unhealthy obsession with murdering any Lilipans I come across and I'm completely locked on to murdering a loli clone when I see one. My teammates think I'm a little crazy with my portrayed bloodlust coming from my Cast, but whatever. Once I can taint myself with an Elder Pain it'll be even more fun!

No running! No mercy! Only pain and slaughter! I really wish Lisa was the melee trainer.

Blood for the Blood God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-gSJW3sHXE)

[darthvader]

I thought the point is that melees aren't shit, they're relatively shit.
In other words your point didn't need proving

well if you (or most people here) believe that so then i have no more words, cuz i got all classes leveled to 50+ with quite decent equipments and have spent around 300 hours + on each classes and my opinion on melee arent relatively shit.

[gigawuts]

well if you (or most people here) believe that so then i have no more words, cuz i got all classes leveled to 50+ with quite decent equipments and have spent around 300 hours + on each classes and my opinion on melee arent relatively shit.

And I have more than three times that on both melee and force.

So uh.

Good going?

[SakoHaruo]

I think SEGA should..

- Give us Stinger level 2 so we can dash cross the map fast as fuck
- Enemy Step so we can JC on Hunar's face
- Royal Guard Release so we can fuck shit up for attacking me
- A divekick that can be jump cancelled.. this alone could buff Hu/Fi
- New fighting Style "Beowulf"
- Exclusive lobby action that does all of Dante's taunts
- And change the name to PSO2 May Cry: Hu/Fi da bess Edition ^^

[darthvader]

And I have more than three times that on both melee and force.

So uh.

Good going?

I did say it was my opinion so it's your own freedom to not agree with me. And i'm bringing vol fighting was because i said in my prev post that melee capabilities are their versatile combat, not specifically for mobs or bosses.

[UnLucky]

well if you (or most people here) believe that so then i have no more words, cuz i got all classes leveled to 50+ with quite decent equipments and have spent around 300 hours + on each classes and my opinion on melee arent relatively shit.

So they're better? Equal? Slightly worse in all areas? Dead weight?

[HeartBreak301]

I think SEGA should..

- Give us Stinger level 2 so we can dash cross the map fast as fuck
- Enemy Step so we can JC on Hunar's face
- Royal Guard Release so we can fuck shit up for attacking me
- A divekick that can be jump cancelled.. this alone could buff Hu/Fi
- New fighting Style "Beowulf"
- Exclusive lobby action that does all of Dante's taunts
- And change the name to PSO2 May Cry: Hu/Fi da bess Edition ^^

And give us a wired lance PA that lets us grab them and then pull to the sides, ripping the target in half.

[darthvader]

So they're better? Equal? Slightly worse in all areas? Dead weight?

^ this, slightly worse in all areas. Posted my first post because i see the title and i didnt really read all pages, so yeah.

[gigawuts]

^ this, slightly worse in all areas. Posted my first post because i see the title and i didnt really read all pages, so yeah.

That's what "relatively shit" means.

[Shadowth117]

- A divekick that can be jump cancelled.. this alone could buff Hu/Fi


A divekick huh? They could have it play like this game!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heenWdYYhg0

[darthvader]

That's what "relatively shit" means.

Oh, i see now, lol. but i would rather call it relatively good instead of relatively shit

[Syklo]

That's what "relatively shit" means.
Although exaggerated, this.

Even though I'm biased I can't deny that FO's easily outperform us FI's in general.
However they're equally more boring to me.

It's 'relatively shit' because, relative to FO's (incl other classes if necessary), it's worse.

[UnLucky]

Please guys, melee is simply "differently abled" than ranged

[Kondibon]

A divekick huh? They could have it play like this game!
Dive Kick NerdJosh vs AlexValle Exhibition @ UFGT8 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heenWdYYhg0)

Or this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNj_vtOpHyQ

[SakoHaruo]

And give us a wired lance PA that lets us grab them and then pull to the sides, ripping the target in half.

I almost forgot.. give us Yamato and striking mags get Rapid Slash assist :-o

[gigawuts]

Oh, i see now, lol. but i would rather call it relatively good instead of relatively shit

Er, yeah, it's just the ordinary internet forum exaggeration thing. Something is mediocre, it's shit. Something is good but something else is better, it's shit. Something is literally the best thing in the world, it's the only thing in the world and everything else is shit.

It's shit, shit, megashit.

[Syklo]

We need a Wired Lance version of Rumbling moon.
And knuckles to have Grab-types.

[gigawuts]

We need a Wired Lance version of Rumbling moon.
And knuckles to have Grab-types.

YES

WHO MAKES A WEAPON NAMED "FISTS" AND MAKES IT THE ONLY WEAPON THAT CAN'T GRAB SOMETHING

WHAT THE HELL MAN

[Arrow]

How would you feel if every melee weapon got some kind of PA that was some kind of ridiculously awesome gap closer?

SEGA PERSON 1: Hey lets make a PA for all HU weapons that close the gap between them and trashmobs.
SEGA PERSON 2: GREAT IDEA! Let's balance it with a long delay at the end to keep them from making it practical!
PLAYER::sleepy:

Theatrics aside I agree sort of.
I can imagine for swords/partisans a buzzsaw PA that turns you into a wheel of death and can be adjusted in mid skill and ends in a AoE smash/whirlwind.
For Knuckles...can't say cause I haven't played FI yet, but a ninja dodging dash that has invulnerability that ends in a AoE tornado kick or uppercut would be something, if something similar alread exists for either I didn't know =w=;

[Syklo]

Actually just redo Fists completely.
YES
Incorporate kicks while you're at it, for true brawling action.

[omgwtflolbbl]

I actually really like fists :(
Well, to be more exact, I just find straight charging through things hilarious for some odd reason. Punching straight through a rockbear's face is too funny.
Hitstop really ruins pendulum roll, though, which makes me sad since it reminds me of hajime no ippo and the hitstop alone makes it feel like the PA takes at least 50% longer to execute.

[Zyrusticae]

You know, the easiest way to increase hunter & fighter mobility is to just increase the traversal speed/distance of hunter step. Assuming they'll never add a sprint or a bunch of new gap-closer PAs to the game, it's the most low-hanging fruit available (even if it is kind of annoying to spam the button everywhere you go).

[Tetsuo9999]

I think SEGA should..

- Give us Stinger level 2 so we can dash cross the map fast as fuck
- Enemy Step so we can JC on Hunar's face
- Royal Guard Release so we can fuck shit up for attacking me
- A divekick that can be jump cancelled.. this alone could buff Hu/Fi
- New fighting Style "Beowulf"
- Exclusive lobby action that does all of Dante's taunts
- And change the name to PSO2 May Cry: Hu/Fi da bess Edition ^^

I would spend hundreds of dollars on this game if any of these suggestions happened. I really don't like how slow the characters run in this game, especially for melee classes who can't even get to the next mob before it's killed by the ranged classes. Sure, there's ways around that with the advanced movement techniques, but that's a lot of effort for what usually amounts to zero reward. A simple sprint button with cancel points would help to close gaps and speed up gameplay for melee classes.

[UnLucky]

Sword: Slam the sword into the ground, launching the player forward and creating a shockwave at both ends.
Wirelance: Grab target, pull yourself towards it. How is this not a thing?
Partisan: Propeller... propels you forward, dealing damage on the way.

Twin Daggers: Jump kick. Gains vertical height when used on the ground, covers more horizontal distance if used in the air. Can cancel it at any time for just the jump, or right after the kick lands but before you touch the ground.
Knuckles: Holding it down is a full on dash while it "charges." Releasing it near an enemy grabs the target and performs a suplex.
Double Saber: Spin towards the target while surrounded by damaging wind. Somehow different from the partisan dash, and what Daggers already have right now. Damage/AoE/speed/distance/whatever.

[Chik'Tikka]

Sword: Slam the sword into the ground, launching the player forward and creating a shockwave at both ends.
Wirelance: Grab target, pull yourself towards it. How is this not a thing?
Partisan: Propeller... propels you forward, dealing damage on the way.

Twin Daggers: Jump kick. Gains vertical height when used on the ground, covers more horizontal distance if used in the air. Can cancel it at any time for just the jump, or right after the kick lands but before you touch the ground.
Knuckles: Holding it down is a full on dash while it "charges." Releasing it near an enemy grabs the target and performs a suplex.
Double Saber: Spin towards the target while surrounded by damaging wind. Somehow different from the partisan dash, and what Daggers already have right now. Damage/AoE/speed/distance/whatever.


Grapple Charge グラップルチャージ Retracts the wire with incredible force after latching on to a target, then sends it back out with a powerful kick. You can shorten the range during the attack, as well.

i use this all the time with my wired lance+^_^+ i believe it's even featured in the opening cut-scene+^_^+ http://youtu.be/FO57ytVbLcE?t=3m34s

[Syklo]

Wirelance: Grab target, pull yourself towards it. How is this not a thing?
Twin Daggers: Jump kick. Gains vertical height when used on the ground, covers more horizontal distance if used in the air. Can cancel it at any time for just the jump, or right after the kick lands but before you touch the ground.
Double Saber: Spin towards the target while surrounded by damaging wind. Somehow different from the partisan dash, and what Daggers already have right now. Damage/AoE/speed/distance/whatever.

As mentioned: WL has Grapple charge
TD Has Raging Waltz and Symphonic drive. They're cancellable incase you didn't know.
DS has tornado dance.

[SakoHaruo]

lol no one will be satisfied until Hu/Fi get some ridiculous shit, might as well go over top so all the crybabies shut the hell up. Then all the hardcore players will start complaining about how easy the game is. Who is SEGA suppose the cater to, the hardcore player or the casuals? :-?

If they go casual, give us A-Groove (fighting game combo mechanic) so I can spam sonic arrow, making the game free as fuck.

[UnLucky]

As mentioned: WL has Grapple charge
TD Has Raging Waltz and Symphonic drive. They're cancellable incase you didn't know.
DS has tornado dance.
-Oh yeah, I remember being dissatisfied with the grapple charge for some reason.
-Yeah, but they're either slow or don't go very far. Can change them instead of adding an all-in one.
-Is that even a good approach? One can do a bigger, stronger, but shorter dash, and yeah.

I want skills that are better than step dashing on the ground. If you think what you've got is adequate, then you can use that.

[omgwtflolbbl]

What's truly confusing is that we can jump 20 feet into the air, spin like maniacs fast enough to actually generate lift, punch the ground hard enough to stun surrounding things, fire weapons 2 times our size, grab on to nothingness and swing back and forth in physics defying manners...

but we can't freakin' sprint.

[Syklo]

-Oh yeah, I remember being dissatisfied with the grapple charge for some reason.
-Yeah, but they're either slow or don't go very far. Can change them instead of adding an all-in one.
-Is that even a good approach? One can do a bigger, stronger, but shorter dash, and yeah.

I want skills that are better than step dashing on the ground. If you think what you've got is adequate, then you can use that.
Yeah I think it was the whole grapple not tracking the enemy thing that dissatisfied you.

I just listed what already fit your descriptions.

Surprised dunk is a decent approach for DS though.

[Rien]

Surprise Dunk is really slow '-'

moreso if you're surrounded

[jerrykun]

Hi all!

I've been playing PSO2 for a few months now (55/55), and I've become increasingly worried about the state of the melee classes in the game.

It would seem that there is absolutely no point in having a melee in your party. They do less damage to less targets and need to travel between monsters.

The tech & ranged classes do just as much damage or more from afar, and they are also more versatile. They can support themselves and the rest of the group with healing, buffs, and monster debuffs.

The tech & ranged classes also do not take much damage. They don't need to be in danger constantly like a melee class. They can deal huge amounts of damage to multiple enemies from a safe distance. Melees need to constantly guard or evade which (along with running between monsters) ruins their damage output.

I'm really worried about this, so I hope SEGA does something. I don't use a melee, but I can acknowledge that they are getting shafted here.

tl;dr There is literally no reason to play as a melee or include a melee in your party.

Melee is getting buffed next patch, making fury and guard stance % based, so it will scale better.
Zonde is getting nerfed next patch, reducing Force damage.
Post a pic of your current gears and we can discuss about what's wrong.
But yeah, many ppl prefer force coz right now it's hella powerful, just watch Japanese AQs, they all have 3-4 Fo/Te or Fo/Fi

[connor_the_kid]

This is kind of a personal rant/thought so I apologize in advance but...

Playing HU/FI the biggest thing I can say the melee classes need is mobility. A run speed increase (even if it's a stance that gives mobility at the expense of S-def or something) and a double jump are really needed.

I can't keep up with trash mobs unless I get lucky with an Over End or something and that's fine, I'm not a force so I don't expect to kill trash mobs the fastest. But bosses is where I start to get a bit irritated. As it was mentioned earlier, Quartz Dragon is a huge frustration to fight on a melee class, the same goes for Banther/Banshee when they're not stunlocked into oblivion. That's just run speed issues though.

One of the most frustrating things for me is my inability to hit certain parts of bosses most of the time while the other classes just hammer away. Zeshrayda is the biggest offender here when trying to bust his cannons.

Even as the "boss killer" class I feel lacking compared to other classes simply because I can't keep up with the boss or hit it where I need to. Granted when I land a full Over End or something they're really feeling the pain but I can't help but feel while I was trying to get lucky enough to do that to keep up a Force has just been hammering away on it all day long without any effort.

And I guess my last complaint would be Gears, Sword Gear in particular. One of the most infuriating things that I've experienced is needing to rev up to be able to deal my max damage while other classes are already vastly outdamaging me by using fully powered attacks from the start.

As a Hunter I do feel a bit underpowered but I also feel I get the most enjoyable class. Actually FIGHTING something rather than just looking at it and having it die is a pretty rewarding experience, especially against bosses. I never feel like I'm dead weight but I never feel like I'm more valuable than another Force.

Also this always comes to mind...
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/1U2wzGR.jpg[/spoiler-box]

I agree

theres a few people who said that hunter 'shines' at bosses in this thread, and its just not really true.

they spend so much time chasing trash mobs, and when you get to the boss, its the same thing.

quartz dragon fight you will spend more than half your time running after the boss, at the very least

[TaigaUC]

Ride Slasher has a slow startup and barely moves.
Grapple Charge often seems to malfunction, although they've said they're fixing that. You still need to be in range for the first hit, too.
Assault Buster doesn't move very far.
Raging Waltz and Symphonic Drive are probably the best ones, but it's really annoying when it looks like they should home in, but fail and hit the ground instead.
Tornado Dance is not a travel PA, it barely moves and is rather slow. It's only good for making sure you stay on the enemy's weak point instead of going through or whiffing.
Straight Charge is pretty decent, but kind of annoying because of how you'll likely want to have Ducking Blow on first slot.
Surprise Dunk is very slow and is difficult to aim accurately.

PAs aside, I find it tiring to have to constantly spam to do tiny dashes or costly travel PAs. This is probably the only melee action game I've played that requires doing that.
I also still wish we could assign PAs to the shortcut bar instead of having to setup multiple instances of the same weapon on the numpad.
I can't believe they haven't coded the game to remember more than one setup per weapon yet. I'm really tired of having to redo my PAs and Techs everytime I change classes. We shouldn't have to carry all-class weapons just to maintain setups.

Many of the 4gamer.net reviews complain that classes are horribly imbalanced and that there's no point playing anything but Force. Don't know how reputable those people are, though.
Part of the problem with melee (aside from the obvious requirement of having to chase after stuff) is that you can't see hit boxes, and because of how they trace during motion you aren't guaranteed to always contact with what you are trying to hit, so melee hits can never be as consistently accurate on weak points as ranged attacks can be.

[Kilich]

I wish the enemies were designed differently. So far every enemy has a dedicated anti melee arsenal and a few have defense, for example, the shield darkers that stagger you when you hit the shield.

Yet they are non threatening to ranged and have almost no defense/resists against ranged. The only one that comes to mind right now is Krabarda's damage resist.

So, I think whatever buffs they could give to melee, even tripling damage, won't fix this situation until they change their enemy design direction.

[LaMBtRon]

I don't believe that hunters (or melee classes in general) are dead weight. I do believe Rangers have an easier time doing things.

[supersonix9]

melee is op, stop all this nonsense mates

they always get to enemies first

[~Aya~]

Imo the only thing considered dead weight are players......... players like me who fall asleep in random places during a quest. (Usually nice places like lava or near explosive barrels or even next to a boss). NAISO FAITO!

[Lyokira]

I wish the enemies were designed differently. So far every enemy has a dedicated anti melee arsenal and a few have defense, for example, the shield darkers that stagger you when you hit the shield.

Yet they are non threatening to ranged and have almost no defense/resists against ranged. The only one that comes to mind right now is Krabarda's damage resist.

So, I think whatever buffs they could give to melee, even tripling damage, won't fix this situation until they change their enemy design direction.

Fordoran/Fordoransa does put up an anti-range/tech barrier, granted they aren't strong enough for rangers/force to plow through even so.

[gigawuts]

I wish the enemies were designed differently. So far every enemy has a dedicated anti melee arsenal and a few have defense, for example, the shield darkers that stagger you when you hit the shield.

Yet they are non threatening to ranged and have almost no defense/resists against ranged. The only one that comes to mind right now is Krabarda's damage resist.

So, I think whatever buffs they could give to melee, even tripling damage, won't fix this situation until they change their enemy design direction.

A bit of a rework to the aggro system would fix this.

Have ranged enemies prioritize players dealing damage from...long range.

In other words, players would have a hate value and then a damage range value. Or maybe long range enemies would just target players dealing damage with guns and techs. Or I don't know. Longer damage range = more likely to piss off long range enemies. Cyclos, guardines, sparguns, wynderas, gun dinians, etc.

This is how it should already work, though. Rangers and gunners should draw aggro from range-based enemies. How it works now is whoever is killing shit or is closest gets the full aggro until everything has scattered. This is disproportionately weighted towards melee characters by nature of proximity and then immediate hate gain via short term damage to multiple things - because the melee player needs to hit everything at once.

The issue with melee survivability isn't even that it isn't survivable. It is - against striking (or whatever your units are specced for). The issue is when every single damagetype is being thrown at it because it's the closest target, being hit with attacks meant for multiple ranges.

[ReaperTheAbsol]

Imo the only thing considered dead weight are players......... players like me who fall asleep in random places during a quest. (Usually nice places like lava or near explosive barrels or even next to a boss). NAISO FAITO!

YEAH, THIS.
I've got my eye on you... Yuri.
These eyes of mine see everything... everything.
CA-CAAAAAWWWWWW.
*Flies away*

[~Aya~]

YEAH, THIS.
I've got my eye on you... Yuri.
These eyes of mine see everything... everything.
CA-CAAAAAWWWWWW.
*Flies away*

Ahahhahahahahahaahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahhaha hahaahaaa*breathes*haha.

[Daiyousei]

A bit of a rework to the aggro system would fix this.

Have ranged enemies prioritize players dealing damage from...long range.

In other words, players would have a hate value and then a damage range value. Or maybe long range enemies would just target players dealing damage with guns and techs. Or I don't know. Longer damage range = more likely to piss off long range enemies. Cyclos, guardines, sparguns, wynderas, gun dinians, etc.

This is how it should already work, though. Rangers and gunners should draw aggro from range-based enemies. How it works now is whoever is killing shit or is closest gets the full aggro until everything has scattered. This is disproportionately weighted towards melee characters by nature of proximity and then immediate hate gain via short term damage to multiple things - because the melee player needs to hit everything at once.

The issue with melee survivability isn't even that it isn't survivable. It is - against striking (or whatever your units are specced for). The issue is when every single damagetype is being thrown at it because it's the closest target, being hit with attacks meant for multiple ranges.

The funny thing about what you said it, I'm just the unfortunate soul who always draws aggro from everything in some form no matter what I do, whether that be ranged or close range enemies, they all go after me and immediately lose interest in anyone else, Falz Elder has always targeted me, and I always hoped that someone else would take the weak bullet burden off me so I won't have to dodge as much and focus more on getting the arms, I've even gotten people incapped because I was running from aggro and those enemies weren't even aiming for them.

[Zyrusticae]

More enemies need to be like the Dicahda/Predicahda. Capable of teleporting across the map to land on top of their target, plus being quite resilient at that. Enemies that close the gap against their target very quickly are more dangerous to ranged characters than to melee (actually, even better - melee characters thus don't have to spend as much time chasing things around!).

Enemy design is as much at fault for the current state of melee as the skill trees themselves. At least one of those is getting addressed.

[connor_the_kid]

Enemy design is as much at fault for the current state of melee as the skill trees themselves. At least one of those is getting addressed.

whats getting addressed? did i miss something?

if you mean the fury stance change, thats not going to fix the problem at all.

[Zyrusticae]

What some folks in this thread don't seem to get is that it doesn't matter if you have to move around a lot, as long as you clear missions at similar speeds to what is considered par. If a party full of hunters is doing as well as a party full of forces, then we're good. If not, then we have a problem.

If you deal as much DPS as a force when you're attacking half as often, I don't think you have much ground to stand on for even more increased efficiency through mobility. Of course, it's worth noting that this kind of design results in extremes whereby melee does absurd amounts of damage against anything that doesn't have high mobility and not so much against anything that likes to move around. The ideal scenario would be for them to simply give us more mobility options first and see where that takes us as opposed to blanket buffing melee with the stance changes, but the stances needed to be able to scale better to higher levels anyway.

I hold no illusions over them ever going out of their way to change up the gameplay as much as adding sprint would allow, so I'll take what I can damn well get. This change is a much-needed one and will go a long way to alleviating the current gap between hunters and forces.

I also find it kind of funny that no one seems to mention ranger in these threads...

[connor_the_kid]

ranger was discussed...

[Coatl]

Ranger is not really all that OP though.

[Zyrusticae]

The only thing I hear about ranger is "weak bullet is OP, 30 sec boss runs lolololol" but that only accounts for roughly 20% of your runs, less so if you full clear AQs. Frankly, I think ranger is in even worse shape than hunter - they're essentially weak bullet bots, and 70% of their skill tree is useless or simply below-par. It doesn't help that launchers are slower than rafoie spam (both in terms of wind-up time and in terms of projectile -> target time) while also not allowing you to fire on the move.

Of course, the argument with regards to rangers is that they at least have a niche they excel at whereas hunters do not, but that is poppycock. If they have one niche they excel at but that niche is less than 20% of your entire run, where does that actually leave them? That's not exactly glowing praise. If hunters occupy a space between rangers and forces whereby they are good at killing bosses and competent at clearing areas, I'll consider them balanced.

[connor_the_kid]

Frankly, I think ranger is in even worse shape than hunter

stopped reading, added your username to my forum filter :lol:

[Z-0]

Yeah, Rangers are not in a worse state. If you know how to use launchers, you're good.

[Coatl]

Ranger is both capable of mob control with launcher/gunslash and speedy boss runs with weak bullet. Honestly I think that rangers are the most balanced class. Not comparatively to the rest of the classes per say, but it just feels like their entire arsenal (gunslashes, launchers, rifles) all serve their purpose in the field.

I get where you're coming from, but I think it's unfair to base class balance off AQ performance. It is obvious that forces will dominate AQs and make every class seem lacking in comparison, but it doesn't seem fair to say Rangers are in a worse state than hunters just because their niche isn't well placed in the current end-game. What happens if we were to get TTF (boss runs) like in PSO1? RA would have the upperhand.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I think it's funny that you think hunter is that bad. If you really knew what you were doing as a melee class you wouldn't feel that melees were all that terrible. Yeah they're harder to use and they have some disadvantages, but in no way are they bad.

Moreover, Zyru has a point. Ranger AoE is good but not great - especially compared to forces who can clear whole rooms with 2-3 techs before other classes can even get started. Ranger/Gunner is in no way a bad class but Gu/Ra or Ra/Gu in a party of forces really only becomes useful vs bosses (when compared to forces) and if that's all they're good for, That's an extremely niche role. It basically places them in this odd support role, making breaking parts easier or making weaker bosses go away faster, but in no way making getting TO the boss any faster. Fo/Fi and to a lesser extent Fo/Te just obliterate everything all the way to the teleporter.

I get the feeling you haven't been playing this game for very long.

[Z-0]

IF you think Rangers aren't great at AoE, you're doing it wrong.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

You misunderstand. Rangers are second best at AoE, but that's a distant second compared to a good Fo. Cluster Bullet for example requires exact placement, doesn't hit nearly the same area as say...gigrants and there's a long delay between when it's fired and when damage is inflicted. in that time, a competent fo could have killed everything already.

Forces also don't require exact placement since so many of their techs can be used in TPS mode for better effects like casting foie to hit everything in a line in a half a second, or an instant rafoie from the other side of the map to hit a small cluster of enemies. all this while moving.

forces can also position themselves in the center of a group and use zondeel/gigrants for devastating effects and even a small group of enemies in front of you can be knocked out in two castings of safoie. Forces are extremely OP and while rangers most certainly are good, melee is also good when soloing since one of their biggest flaws - chasing is greatly reduced when they have aggro and everything is converging on them.

In the context of a full party where any mix of classes can be there, the force is typically even leaving the rangers in the dust for group damage.

[UnLucky]

Forces are the second best at boss killing, but a distant second to a good Gu/Ra.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

That's true, which is what Zyru was saying. Gu/Ra may be the best at killing bosses, but on actual bosses most people are more concerned with breaking parts so they're relegated to WBing everything you can break first and by the time everything's broken, it's practically dead anyway.

Even if that weren't the case, the point Zyru was trying to make was that you're talking about a small percentage of the game where a class does very well and is pretty much insignificant the rest of time in the context of party dynamic.

[Z-0]

I wish Force was the second best at boss killing, but Ra/Fi is way better.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

I think that kinda depends on the boss

[Rayokarna]

Moreover, Zyru has a point. Ranger AoE is good but not great - especially compared to forces who can clear whole rooms with 2-3 techs before other classes can even get started. Ranger/Gunner is in no way a bad class but Gu/Ra or Ra/Gu in a party of forces really only becomes useful vs bosses (when compared to forces) and if that's all they're good for, That's an extremely niche role. It basically places them in this odd support role, making breaking parts easier or making weaker bosses go away faster, but in no way making getting TO the boss any faster. Fo/Fi and to a lesser extent Fo/Te just obliterate everything all the way to the teleporter.


It's how I feel how Ranger atm. Gunner/Ranger works since it gets such good milage out of Weak Bullet and some of the other passive ability upgrades. However the other side of Ranger (Utility and Tool set) have a lot to be desired and in a practical sense arn't much use or highly situational while taking a lot of points to become situationally good. Saying that I love Stun Grenades, I just wish Traps had batter usage and versitlity for the cost of a lot less points and I still haven't found a use for Bind Bullet.

The good thing about Utility Ranger with Hunter Sub is the reminicent feel of V1 Protranser from PSU.

[Zyrusticae]

I should note that a big reason I consider ranger worse off than hunters is that hunters at least have good chunks of their skill tree that are actually used, whereas rangers only really ever take a fraction of their entire skill tree (when was the last time you saw someone use bind bullet? Panic shot? ...Jellen shot?). This will be exacerbated even further when hunters get their fury/guard stance buffs.

And seriously? Launchers kind of suck. Being unable to fire on the move is a huge burden, not to mention all the attacks that are completely unsafe to use if anything is even looking your way. Also, slow projectile speed means moving targets play havoc on your accuracy. They do at least have the benefit of being ranged, doing decent damage in a fair-sized AoE, but "decent" doesn't cut it next to any competent force.

Meanwhile, partisan hunter does massive damage with quick-charging attacks with sometimes shockingly huge AoEs (lol geared Slide End). Even being melee they have an easier time clearing trash mobs than a launcher ranger. This is made abundantly obvious simply by comparing ranger TA times with hunter TA times.

What's funny is that I remember at launch people complaining about launchers being totally OP. How times change...


I wish Force was the second best at boss killing, but Ra/Fi is way better.
Imagine if double subclassing was a thing.

Weak bullet -> chain trigger -> deadly archer finish. As it is, even just weak bullet -> deadly archer is ridiculous...

[gigawuts]

I don't think limiting rangers is a flaw in the class's balance but I do think it's an enormous flaw in good design.

These skills should always be pre-unlocked at basic levels. 1 limited use bullet every so often. They should each either be their own tree, or be on a tree with multiple points of entry from the standard gun tree (THIS IS SUCH A FUCKING NECESSITY OH MY GOD).

[lostinseganet]

To me its the journey not the destination. So have fun with observing the different play styles.