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View Full Version : Fury Stance Nerf for RA/HU (also Guard Stance buff)



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Z-0
Apr 11, 2013, 10:45 AM
http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=1260

gg

Guard Stance: http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=1261&page=1

Appear to be adding S-Def to Guard Stance and just buffing it because "it's worse than before now" but idk.

EDIT2: Hunter is not getting nerfed (only if you use Additional Bullet), only the ranged attack modifiers are being changed.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 10:46 AM
Bwahaha, it looks like we're already getting another all-tree reset pass.

The Walrus
Apr 11, 2013, 10:51 AM
Goddammit Sakai

GreenArcher
Apr 11, 2013, 10:52 AM
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Well, my numbers did get kind of stupid following the update, but still! :(

jooozek
Apr 11, 2013, 10:52 AM
aren't they gonna run a check who has points in fury stance?

Enforcer MKV
Apr 11, 2013, 10:53 AM
Bwahaha, it looks like we're already getting another all-tree reset pass.

I'm totally fine with that. Having one or two extra would encourage me to not wait to reset my trees. ^^;

Sp-24
Apr 11, 2013, 10:53 AM
aren't they gonna run a check who has points in fury stance?
That would affect what, again?

jooozek
Apr 11, 2013, 10:55 AM
That would affect what, again?

people who (don't have hunter leveled thus) don't have points in fury stance, duh

Jakosifer
Apr 11, 2013, 10:57 AM
Well that didn't last long. Hope they don't also stealth screw HE.

Z-0
Apr 11, 2013, 10:57 AM
They're distributing more skill tree resets, so it doesn't matter.

Sp-24
Apr 11, 2013, 10:57 AM
people who (don't have hunter leveled thus) don't have points in fury stance, duh
Oh. Well, they might as well for all I care. (Put 5 points into it before it was cool)

Zeota
Apr 11, 2013, 10:57 AM
Pretty hilarious fighting Falz arms last night when the average fight time was less than 30 seconds.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 10:58 AM
i have obtained top secret minutes from the meeting discussing this topic

they are as follows

"Hunter is too good as a sub for one class, what should we do? Do we nerf the main class' multipliers?"

"uuuuh nerf HU"

Z-0
Apr 11, 2013, 10:59 AM
If you read the post, it says they are leaving the boosts in Striking Damage alone, and only nerfing the Ranged Damage (at least that's what I'm getting).

Crysteon
Apr 11, 2013, 10:59 AM
Oh, nice...another free Skill Tree reset ticket \o/

It's not like I will need to reset my 2 current active trees atm (and I have like 4 more trees to waste on HU and FI \o/ after the reset)...yeah, I will store that ticket like a precious thing if they decide to give us another ;_;

Sp-24
Apr 11, 2013, 10:59 AM
I bet both of those people who main Hunter and rely on their ranged attack will be pissed.

GreenArcher
Apr 11, 2013, 11:00 AM
Well they're only nerfing the R-ATK portion of Fury Stance. S-ATK to remain as it is.

HeartBreak301
Apr 11, 2013, 11:01 AM
I felt that all the classes were pretty balanced now, but I guess Sega didn't.

The Walrus
Apr 11, 2013, 11:02 AM
http://gemakei.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/clap-gif.gif

Sega Master Balancing Race

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 11:02 AM
I bet both of those people who main Hunter and rely on their ranged attack will be pissed.

Hunter actually does depend on ranged damage at times via gunslash, because its other options for elevated mobile targets are such a joke. Rising edge is finicky for wynderas since they move so much and are immune to lift half the time, the new flying diggs just fucking love going way too high to hit, etc. Also, two of the best gunslash PA's are ratk-based.

So yeah. This actually does affect hunter to a larger degree than most would think, far more than a striking nerf would affect anythingexceptfi/hu . Plus, there are a few people I personally know of that regularly go HU/RA, and this will indeed affect them.

The obvious fix would've been to reduce WHA's ridiculous 56% passive headshot bonus damage, or standing snipe's 32%, or---

Kilich
Apr 11, 2013, 11:02 AM
Have to keep Hu and Fi at limited usefulness, so that the new class and race are actually tempting to get.

jooozek
Apr 11, 2013, 11:03 AM
I felt that all the classes were pretty balanced now, but I guess Sega didn't.

yeah the classes are really balanced
if i could i would main and sub TECHER at once

Gardios
Apr 11, 2013, 11:07 AM
http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=1260

gg

Guard Stance: http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=1261&page=1

Appear to be adding R-Def to Guard Stance and just buffing it because "it's worse than before now" but idk.

I'll be the only person happy about the update. :lol:

DS23
Apr 11, 2013, 11:10 AM
Do they ever playtest this thing before putting updates live?

Z-0
Apr 11, 2013, 11:11 AM
They most likely do, but with 3* star.

Zenobia
Apr 11, 2013, 11:13 AM
WOOOT HU still remains unaffected as far as the r atk goes good shit I am happy.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 11:15 AM
WOOOT HU still remains unaffected as far as the r atk goes good shit I am happy.

Because nobody here ever reads the last four posts of any page, ever.


Hunter actually does depend on ranged damage at times via gunslash, because its other options for elevated mobile targets are such a joke. Rising edge is finicky for wynderas since they move so much and are immune to lift half the time, the new flying diggs just fucking love going way too high to hit, etc. Also, two of the best gunslash PA's are ratk-based.

So yeah. This actually does affect hunter to a larger degree than most would think, far more than a striking nerf would affect anythingexceptfi/hu . Plus, there are a few people I personally know of that regularly go HU/RA, and this will indeed affect them.

The obvious fix would've been to reduce WHA's ridiculous 56% passive headshot bonus damage, or standing snipe's 32%, or---

Zenobia
Apr 11, 2013, 11:22 AM
Because nobody here ever reads the last four posts of any page, ever.

I read that pages ago and as far as the wyngdras go and those new ones in Dragon altar I still use Rising slash anf Daggers for with regards to the no flinch function they have I don't have a problem with them I usually kill them fast enough anyway and I hardly use gunslashs UNLESS! there is switch much to far away for me to hit.

NoiseHERO
Apr 11, 2013, 11:29 AM
woo!

A CHUNK OF INDIVIDUALS aren't affected!

YEAH! WOO! (this includes me FUUUUCK R-ATK GUCCI SWAG MONEY BITCHES GIVENCHY)

SakoHaruo
Apr 11, 2013, 11:33 AM
welp *puts on lab coat* I might as well go HAM on the skill tree since we're getting another pass on the 17th. I don't use gunslash so don't care about R Atk nerf. we gud ~_^

Enforcer MKV
Apr 11, 2013, 11:35 AM
...*Continues happily playing RA/TE, content with the fact that he'll be getting another skill reset soon.*

~♫

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 11:36 AM
Yeah sorry Giga, there are all of two situations where I would ever actually bother to use a gunslash (Big Vardha and Zeshrayda), and even then I don't bother because I'll just switch to my all-class twin daggers instead. Or let someone else deal with the parts I can't reach.

As far as I'm concerned, this is kind of a necessary fix. Ra/Hu should not be the end-all, be-all.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 11:39 AM
You guys are way downplaying the situations a gunslash is or should be useful, and way overplaying my reaction to it.

The fact is, HU is being nerfed for something RA is overpowered in. Want a decent argument for it? GU/HU has absolutely nothing on GU/RA. Not now, not ever. GU/RA has better multipliers from ranger AND weak bullet. It's only HU's multipliers in addition to ranger's multipliers that are insane.

The Walrus
Apr 11, 2013, 11:39 AM
As far as I'm concerned, this is kind of a necessary fix. Ra/Hu should not be the end-all, be-all.

So it should be Ra/Fi instead?

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 11:50 AM
So it should be Ra/Fi instead?
Fighter stances at least have the notable downside of a massive penalty if you've got the wrong facing. It's also got far less mass-clearing capability (nothing can beat a Lambda Aristin for killing trash en masse). Odds are, Ra/Hu is still going to be insanely strong, they just won't have the benefit of being able to both kill trash insanely fast while also being able to kill bosses in 10 seconds or less, which is really the crux of the issue here.

omgwtflolbbl
Apr 11, 2013, 11:51 AM
The damage people were outputting as Ra/Hu was absolutely insane, though. I pointed out it'd probably get nerfed in lobby yesterday and people were like NAH YOU CRAZY.

Honestly, I feel like Ra/Fi SHOULD be superior. Fighter stances have a noticeable downside to them. If you attack from the wrong side, not only do you get the extra damage, but you get docked 20% damage on top of that. There's something of a risk to that high extra damage. But the way fury stance is now lol you take 5% extra striking damage, there's pretty much no risk for a pretty much 100% superior damage setup. Doesn't that seem weird? It makes no sense to have a risk vs. reward scenario where you have higher risk and lower reward for going a certain setup.

But I also agree that targeting Hu is probably not really the right move here. I would really like to see base damages on ranged weapons brought up some but WHA nerfed a fair amount. While it makes sense that a gun user should be rewarded for hitting a weak spot, the fact is that the base damage and multipliers are so skewed that hitting weak spots pretty much defines Ra, and not hitting a weak spot means you generally do crap for damage. But these current crazy multipliers with wha and wb make for really stupid scenarios as it is now.

Neith
Apr 11, 2013, 11:51 AM
RA with Additional Bullet should be the one getting nerfed (and a million other things RA should be nerfed for), but this nerf to HU won't really affect me much at all. The only times I can think of that I'd use a Gunslash as a HU are breaking boss crystals (Vraolet ability) and Falz Elder's raised arms. Aside from that, most other situations are easily covered with over PAs. I haven't personally had a problem with Windira before (Speed Rain usually hits them fine); the only enemy I can think of that'd pose a problem are the new flying ones, which have next to no health anyway.

I do agree that ranged classes should've been hit here though instead. I don't understand how Ranger can be so obviously overpowered but never gets adjusted.

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 12:07 PM
But I also agree that targeting Hu is probably not really the right move here. I would really like to see base damages on ranged weapons brought up some but WHA nerfed a fair amount. While it makes sense that a gun user should be rewarded for hitting a weak spot, the fact is that the base damage and multipliers are so skewed that hitting weak spots pretty much defines Ra, and not hitting a weak spot means you generally do crap for damage. But these current crazy multipliers with wha and wb make for really stupid scenarios as it is now.
This is my biggest issue with the class, really. Ranger damage output is terrible against anything without weak points or with extremely difficult-to-hit weak points (most of the mechs are like this). It's a pretty ridiculous dichotomy.

On the other hand, that's pretty much what defines the class nowadays. Forces get support techs, huge AoEs, and status effects out the ass. Hunters have the highest durability with the best defensive abilities and the biggest variety of weapons (and therefore, attacks). Rangers get status effects and traps, but, um, who uses anything that isn't weak bullet nowadays?

Ranger is the one class that could really use a blanket rebalancing effort. I don't know if it's even possible to get to the point where all the traps and bullet effects are equally desirable, but they should at least make an effort. And the difference between damage on weak points and damage on everything else really needs to be toned down. Perhaps WHA should have the weak point damage boost reduced but have a general damage bonus added to compensate or something.

Kilich
Apr 11, 2013, 12:15 PM
Hunter might have a lot of PAs, but only a few of them are good. Unlike six elements with techs that are generally good, except for ice.

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 12:21 PM
No, there are plenty of "good" hunter PAs. The problem lies with the few that are "OMFG"-tier, like Assault Buster and Sonic Arrow. Of course, if you nerfed those you'd have a serious outcry, so...

Enforcer MKV
Apr 11, 2013, 12:22 PM
No, there are plenty of "good" hunter PAs. The problem lies with the few that are "OMFG"-tier, like Assault Buster and Sonic Arrow. Of course, if you nerfed those you'd have a serious outcry, so...

...just buff the others?

[DANGER: Off-topic discussion in 3...2...1...]

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 12:23 PM
I, for one, would not complain one bit if every fighter PA did as much damage as Deadly Archer.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 12:27 PM
They shouldn't do as much damage, but they should have equal utility. They should be comparably good at different things, offering different abilities and different ways of applying damage that make them good in multiple, but as many, different situations.

i.e. tornado dance is good for chasing enemies and AOE in a small circle, acro effect is good for a wider number and for dash canceling, plus it has autoguard, etc.

Deadly archer has and should really continue to have the best single-target melee damage, just by nature of how small and finicky the hitbox is.

Sword PA's need to be brought up to OE's level, and OE needs to have either best burst damage or best dps taken down a notch. Badly. The charge PA's are kind of a joke because of it.

Shinamori
Apr 11, 2013, 12:28 PM
OverEnd is really the only skill I use. That and the stun one. I welcome a new skill reset. I messed mu character by putting points in rare mastery...

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 12:37 PM
Deadly archer has and should really continue to have the best single-target melee damage, just by nature of how small and finicky the hitbox is.
I agree with most everything in this post, except this.

Deadly Archer has the benefit of being a ranged attack that is also safe. In comparison to something like Illusion Rave where you're literally locked into the animation from start to finish, it really has very little justification for the insane damage it does relative to everything else.

If anything, Illusion Rave should have the outright highest DPS out of all the fighter attacks just because of how unsafe it is to use in most situations. I should be using that one whenever I feel like just annihilating things without regard for my own personal safety. Instead, it's kind of pathetic, used exclusively because it's the flashiest attack in the entire game aside from Over End, and not because it's any good at... anything at all.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 12:40 PM
I feel like IR shouldn't get the best damage, plainly because of how large the hitbox is and how slow it is. I'd rather see it get hyper armor and better damage on its first hits, but stay unchanged otherwise. This would give it a purpose in close quarters.

Actually I feel fists should get the best dps moves in the game. Flash thousand should devastate.

Dycize
Apr 11, 2013, 12:56 PM
Guard stance being increased further? Guard stance also reducing ranged damage?
YES.
YES.

That's how happy I am about this. As a jHUggernaut, I rejoice at the idea that I'm going to be protected further from the 2 most common damage types in the game. That also means that it will now be as interesting as flashguards.
Oh I am so happy.

Fury stance changes? Don't care about those, never used it. But glad that they're at least trying (key word : trying, yeah, RA really needs a tree clean up) to fix the sudden broken combo.

omgwtflolbbl
Apr 11, 2013, 12:57 PM
More than that, I would really like to see PA PP costs changed. The blanket 30-40 PP that most PAs costs is absolutely stupid. One of main issues melees have is getting to where they need to be and IMO melee weapons should really get low PP cost PAs that help to efficiently close the gap. For instance, although I like straight charging for damage because I think its hilarious, I feel like knuckles (aside from the stupid hitstop) would be so much better if straight charge ALWAYS went the full distance, did little damage, but also only needed like 10 PP and maybe stopped at the first target hit. It would allow them to stay in range much more effectively and do what they actually need to do. You'd see more PA variety if there were sets of utility PAs that didn't also have a ridiculous PP cost attached to them.

I wish Flash Thousand would have its knockup removed.

BlankM
Apr 11, 2013, 01:02 PM
Actually I feel fists should get the best dps moves in the game. Flash thousand should devastate.

This^

That or Pendulum Roll would make me happy. Flash Thousand has some AoE use while pendulum roll could be better for single-target. Sure fists can dodge cancel but their range compared with deadly archer is pretty bad.

I also don't think Deadly Archer should have the most damage. The fact you can charge it and it hits like a foot away from you makes it easy to space and its not as unsafe as many of DS's other PAs.

jooozek
Apr 11, 2013, 01:03 PM
still awaiting the day that i can play trapper ranger

Rayokarna
Apr 11, 2013, 01:12 PM
still awaiting the day that i can play trapper ranger

Doing it already.

Skyly HUmar
Apr 11, 2013, 01:14 PM
You guys are way downplaying the situations a gunslash is or should be useful, and way overplaying my reaction to it.

The fact is, HU is being nerfed for something RA is overpowered in. Want a decent argument for it? GU/HU has absolutely nothing on GU/RA. Not now, not ever. GU/RA has better multipliers from ranger AND weak bullet. It's only HU's multipliers in addition to ranger's multipliers that are insane.

Well i won't say gs isnt useful, since i do use it for quartz wings and vader's face cannons. But for the windria's and the new flying things, i never had a problem wrecking them in 3 seconds with a sword before the update, and i most certainly wont have that problem afterwards.

jooozek
Apr 11, 2013, 01:16 PM
Doing it already.

seriously? my condolences
i think i'd drill holes in ground before i could cope with the cooldown bullshit

HeartBreak301
Apr 11, 2013, 01:18 PM
seriously? my condolences
i think i'd drill holes in ground before i could cope with the cooldown bullshit

Hey at least mining machines spew lots of meseta and photon stones.

UnLucky
Apr 11, 2013, 01:55 PM
i have obtained top secret minutes from the meeting discussing this topic

they are as follows

"Hunter is too good as a sub for one class, what should we do? Do we nerf the main class' multipliers?"

"uuuuh nerf HU"

I love how they literally said "in certain subclass combinations, Fury Stance makes ranged damage too strong"

You know that JA Advance, Fury Stance Up(s), and Fury Combo will still boost ranged PAs, right? Oh no, RA/HU will only get 400% passive damage multipliers instead of 450%. That really adds up during Weak Bullet, you know!

MoonAtomizer
Apr 11, 2013, 01:58 PM
Looking at a pure RaHu build:

WHA1 * WHA2 * SS1 * SS2 * FS * FS1 * FS2 * JA1 * JA2 * FCU =
125% * 125% * 115% * 115% * 125% * 110% * 110% * 110% * 110% * 120% =
~453.8%

Of course, this is assuming SS and JA activates. But damn, lol, must be the same QA team from Sonic 06. :wacko:

Xaeris
Apr 11, 2013, 01:58 PM
Wow, I'm genuinely impressed. I figured this would go unchanged for weeks, if not months, but they're hopping on it pretty damn fast.

Cyron Tanryoku
Apr 11, 2013, 01:59 PM
They're distributing more skill tree resets, so it doesn't matter.

Fuck yea, now I'll have 3

The Walrus
Apr 11, 2013, 02:03 PM
I think I'll have 10 now. Assuming they give out 1 per character again.

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 02:05 PM
Fuck yea, now I'll have 3
6 here (LOLWUT).

It's going to be a long time before I use them all, heh...

Xaeris
Apr 11, 2013, 02:05 PM
They most likely do, but with 3* star.

Also, not sure if this was a joke, but I wouldn't be surprised. Whenever they show us a preview video, it's always featuring some scrubs using sub-100 mags, < 3* weapons and the most bizarre choices of photon arts. It might just be for the show, but it wouldn't surprise me a little bit to find that those are the same characters they use for testing.

MoonAtomizer
Apr 11, 2013, 02:08 PM
Honestly though, it's not just the QA but the programmers as well: you'd have to be a huge idiot to not see how much that stacks up in terms of multiplication.

I haven't even logged in since the update and just seeing the numbers baffles me how they even managed to let this slip.

EDIT: And let's not forget they were withholding the Fury Stance patch for over a month.

Cyron Tanryoku
Apr 11, 2013, 02:08 PM
I swear that tower video had that hunter using the falz sword






That's the only time I saw them use a rare in a video

EvilMag
Apr 11, 2013, 02:14 PM
I do remember when they were showing off Falz Sakai was using Lambda Saint Kilda and that chick that follows him around used Elysion.

And yet they still suck and get their asses kicked. .-.

D-Inferno
Apr 11, 2013, 02:40 PM
I personally feel that RA/GU and FO/TE should have better ranged/tech damage than RA/(HU, RA/FI, and FO/FI. Those should be instead for hybrid builds, even though they would suck atm.

Zorafim
Apr 11, 2013, 02:42 PM
Eh? Ranger actually got good? How did this happen?
Ranger's always been my weakest class, despite having much more Ratk and Rdfp than anything else. I should check the class out while it's still strong, and see what I'm missing.

Also, hell yeah free skill reset.

Bellion
Apr 11, 2013, 02:46 PM
RA only suffers in damage when facing the following enemies: Windira, Gilnach, Gilnas Core(Just kill it and don't bother with the arms and legs), Gilnas Legs, Gilnas Arms, little Guardibots, and any other enemy that I forgot to mention without a weakpoint or extremely low headshot multipliers or both.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 02:46 PM
I swear that tower video had that hunter using the falz sword






That's the only time I saw them use a rare in a video

The elder pain, yes. It's their go-to 10*, apparently. They used it for the 10* buying/selling trailer, too. Someone turned a 10* into a trading pass (LOL) and then a different one was bought for 50m (LOL LOL LOL).

Bellion
Apr 11, 2013, 02:48 PM
Turn an Elder Pain into a pass to buy a Vardha Cannon. GJ.

Alisha
Apr 11, 2013, 02:52 PM
how the hell is guard stance weaker than it used to be when it reduces damage by 25%??????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????

this has the potential to go very wrong
GS25%+FG1 20%+fg2 20%+deband cut15%=80%?

~Aya~
Apr 11, 2013, 02:54 PM
Also, not sure if this was a joke, but I wouldn't be surprised. Whenever they show us a preview video, it's always featuring some scrubs using sub-100 mags, < 3* weapons and the most bizarre choices of photon arts. It might just be for the show, but it wouldn't surprise me a little bit to find that those are the same characters they use for testing.


You must be watching my livestream.

MoonAtomizer
Apr 11, 2013, 02:54 PM
Eh? Ranger actually got good? How did this happen?


RaFi was always a good class. It just required more thought than Elder Rebellion (and of course, leveling the advance class of Hu).

RaHu just makes the damage RaFi had even more absurd, on top of taking out the positioning requirement.

GoldenFalcon
Apr 11, 2013, 02:57 PM
how the hell is guard stance weaker than it used to be when it reduces damage by 25%?

The way defense works, Guard Stance could make a 50 damage hit deal 1 damage

While a 25% reduction makes you take 37 instead

(all I can think of)

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 02:59 PM
how the hell is guard stance weaker than it used to be when it reduces damage by 25%??????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????

By nature of the damage formula. Attack stat is subtracted by the def stat (and other stuff happens, but this is the important step here). Nobody maxes guard stance unless they already have very high def.

These are just example numbers, I'm not 100% on the specifics of how the game treats its numbers, but this will be the rough idea. If you've got a ton of def, and the enemy doesn't have a ton of atk, then 150 def makes a huge difference. Let's say an enemy has 1800 satk. That means with 1200 sdef after all your gear, guard stance 10 will reduce damage by 25%. But what if an enemy has LESS than 1800 satk? What if it has 1500? Well, now guard stance reduces damage taken by 50%. What if it has exactly 1350? Now your sdef is 1350, and the enemy probably hits the minimum damage possible - 1.

So yeah. That's the thing with def and atk. To increase damage you widen the gap between atk & def. To decrease damage you close the gap between atk & def. Many players already had a wide gap between their atk and an enemy's def, so 150 satk was pretty mediocre and added much less than 25% damage. But most defensive players didn't have a huge gap between their own def and the enemy's atk, meaning 150 made quite a big difference.

edit: tl;dr (not true to the formula, since it reduces actual damage taken by a factor of 5 and has multipliers for different attacks and blablabla etc. but you'll get the point)

for defense
1500 atk - 1200 def = 300 damage taken
1500 atk - (1200 + 150 def) = 150 damage taken (-50%)
after changes: (1500 atk - 1200 def) * .75 = 225 damage taken (-25%)

but for offense
1800 atk - 800 def = 1000 damage dealt
1950 atk - 800 def = 1150 damage dealt (15%)
(1800 atk - 800 def) * 1.25 = 1250 damage dealt (25%)

edit2: For reference, this is the same way it worked in PSO1 and PSU. I know that much has been discerned from the formula, having seen it a few times and recalling that much. What's the difference? Defense. Enemies have significantly lower defense, and players are able to invest in tons of offensive multipliers. Static bonuses, like what fury stance & guard stance used to be, were very good for low level characters. Why? Those enemies with 800 def always have 800 def. If a player has 850 atk, 150 more atk is a HUGE gain in damage - MUCH more than the 15% gains that endgame players had and hated - just like shifta used to be in PSO1.

GoldenFalcon
Apr 11, 2013, 03:05 PM
wow giga

Alisha
Apr 11, 2013, 03:14 PM
is there really no division in there? i seem to recall that in the psp2/i games due to division that occurs -% taken was better than adding def. or maybe in this game division occurs before your def is subtracted from atk?

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 03:18 PM
is there really no division in there? i seem to recall that in the psp2/i games due to division that occurs -% taken was better than adding def. or maybe in this game division occurs before your def is subtracted from atk?

Yes, there is division. There are a number of other steps with resistances, element types, and a whole slew of things. I'm just taking out the operating part.

The formula is pretty straightforward - the main changes are in how weapon affinities work (in PSO1 they were % bonuses to weapon damage against certain enemies ), in PSU it was a bonus based on your element, and here in PSO2 despite seeming like it uses PSU's system things are a bit different. I haven't taken the time to bother trying to break it all down, but it's not a flat % damage bonus, nor is it a flat % bonus to atk.

edit: Also, evasion & accuracy has been replaced by dex. Instead of having variance & misses, you have [I]a whole bunch of variance.

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 03:39 PM
Elements in PSO2 are a bonus to your weapon damage and only your weapon damage.

Basically, take whatever the attack value of your weapon is, subtract any affixes that boost it (they're irrelevant in this case), then multiply by the value of your element bonus. In the case of a Lambda Raizenok, as an example, you have 645 base S-Atk and with 50 element you get an extra 322.5 S-Atk. The extra S-Atk is then multiplied by whatever the elemental defense bonuses/penalties are on your target.

Note that this means lower-rarity items can actually be stronger than higher-rarity ones with a high enough element. Another example, let's say I have a Diggnuts Pillar with 777 S-Atk and 25 element. That 25 element gives me 194 extra S-Atk, for a total of 971. The Raizenok above has a total of 967 with its 50 element. Starting to look pretty competitive, ain't it?

Of course, this is exclusively for weapon damage. Techniques use another formula and it completely ignores the element of your weapon.

Z-0
Apr 11, 2013, 03:58 PM
It divides weapon attack by five before adding elemental, by the way.

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 04:12 PM
The "divide by five" thing is misleading. You divide by five to get your actual damage; either way, the math is the same (you multiply by the element bonus and add it to your original value).

For example, with 2k S-Atk your attacks will do 400 base damage. Of course, this is rarely (if ever) the case due to JA and all the various skill bonuses being piled on top of your attacks, in addition to the huge multipliers inherent to every PA in the game. At any rate, whether you're multiplying your weapon's S-Atk or your actual weapon damage you're going to end up with the same benefit from the element bonus thanks to the commutative property.

GuardianGirth
Apr 11, 2013, 04:13 PM
I'm pretty happy about this, it was needed. As much as I like being strong, cluster bullet and rodeodrive should not be hitting for 14/15k casually. At least not yet.

sandylecuistot
Apr 11, 2013, 04:20 PM
Just when I was about to be strong in Gunner/Hunter.
I'm not happy... not at all...
I realy don't want to go Ranger as a sub -_- .

And as we talk, Over End is still far too strong...

Reia
Apr 11, 2013, 04:37 PM
Well hitting over 45K per shot was pretty ridiculous, I don't mind the nerf as long as it doesnt nerf it so bad to become something pointless.

Lumpen Thingy
Apr 11, 2013, 04:38 PM
was hitting 40k a hit on bosses with sneak shooter and 3.6k per little hit with additional bullet......so I guess I can see why they would nerf the R att boost from it lol

Eternal255
Apr 11, 2013, 04:43 PM
Yay another tree reset! Good! Cuz i fucked up both my hunter trees xD miscalculated points.

And i totally called this nerf. The damage is ridiculous now! I'm using weaker weapons than I was pre patch and doing at least 15% more damage.

Eikahe
Apr 11, 2013, 04:45 PM
Well, I guess the only thing I have to ask is this-

Is this going to be a complete and total nerf to RA/HU or is it still going to be a viable combo to run considering it's still percent based now?

I'm fine with going RA/FI but yeah. :P

Reia
Apr 11, 2013, 04:46 PM
Well im still against RA/FI being superior. Because I don't like the simple fact that Subbing FI for any class is the solution to anything or else your class is a bad main, RA is the least played class in the game for that reason, me and many other players dont feel any challenge from playing GU but RA is pretty weak without FI and HU wasn't enough yet. And it kills the purpose of why HU bonuses give R-atk and no T-atk! I still prefer FI being a nice sub for techer classes but not for gun shooting classes.

Even if they nerf the main Fury stance by R-atk it won't change that HU will be the solid sub for RA from now on, we get more jA boosts and they cant nerf the 1% bonus from each Fury Stance up! Nerfing the 25% to 10% isn't going to substract much from the total 90%, it will just be a total of 75-80% boost instead of 90%

Z-0
Apr 11, 2013, 04:49 PM
^ They can nerf the 1% bonus.

Just make it so that you only get an extra percent in R-Atk every other level instead.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 04:56 PM
They can also completely remove it, or revert it back to a static point instead (I REALLY would prefer this one, because that's what made it good for melee chars since, as already explained, low points + static = good).

Reia
Apr 11, 2013, 05:32 PM
They can also completely remove it, or revert it back to a static point instead (I REALLY would prefer this one, because that's what made it good for melee chars since, as already explained, low points + static = good).

They wont remove it. That would make SEGA think that they should cut out the gunslash.

We will have to wait until SEGA implements the change, as usual they are the master of tension on not giving any details, or they not simply have any idea how atm.

Skyly HUmar
Apr 11, 2013, 05:44 PM
Well im still against RA/FI being superior. Because I don't like the simple fact that Subbing FI for any class is the solution to anything or else your class is a bad main, RA is the least played class in the game for that reason, me and many other players dont feel any challenge from playing GU but RA is pretty weak without FI and HU wasn't enough yet. And it kills the purpose of why HU bonuses give R-atk and no T-atk! I still prefer FI being a nice sub for techer classes but not for gun shooting classes.

Even if they nerf the main Fury stance by R-atk it won't change that HU will be the solid sub for RA from now on, we get more jA boosts and they cant nerf the 1% bonus from each Fury Stance up! Nerfing the 25% to 10% isn't going to substract much from the total 90%, it will just be a total of 75-80% boost instead of 90%

Lets not go that far either, i know someone that was hitting 17k constantly before the update, to me thats pretty good for a non fi sub.

Reia
Apr 11, 2013, 06:00 PM
Lets not go that far either, i know someone that was hitting 17k constantly before the update, to me thats pretty good for a non fi sub.

17K without WB or with? And which PA?

Demon-
Apr 11, 2013, 06:05 PM
"Fury Stance nerf"

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m26nvnNG5o1qkk10ro1_500.jpg

Skyly HUmar
Apr 11, 2013, 06:08 PM
17K without WB or with? And which PA?

17k sneek shooter no wb. He told me the update brought him to 22.

Bellion
Apr 11, 2013, 06:11 PM
RA is weak in damage but GU isn't? I'm not following this. Just because GU can kill 1 boss really quick doesn't really make it strong. It is not good for mob killing and not good when there is more than 1 boss.

RA can kill mobs quickly and take out bosses fairly quick. It'll lose to a single boss except Quartz, Vol, and Dragon EX in terms of killing the quickest when compared to GU. However, it will be better when there is something like x3 of a mini boss. There is a reason why RA will kill Quartz, Vol, and Dragon Ex faster than GU and they all have 1 thing in common. I'll let you figure this one out.

As someone who has played RA and GU for a while, I would say GU to be worse overall in damage.

Edit: One more thing: GU needs RA, but RA doesn't need GU.

Skyly HUmar
Apr 11, 2013, 06:22 PM
RA is weak in damage but GU isn't? I'm not following this. Just because GU can kill 1 boss really quick doesn't really make it strong. It is not good for mob killing and not good when there is more than 1 boss.

RA can kill mobs quickly and take out bosses fairly quick. It'll lose to a single boss except Quartz, Vol, and Dragon EX in terms of killing the quickest when compared to GU. However, it will be better when there is something like x3 of a mini boss. There is a reason why RA will kill Quartz, Vol, and Dragon Ex faster than GU and they all have 1 thing in common. I'll let you figure this one out.

As someone who has played RA and GU for a while, I would say GU to be worse overall in damage.

Because chaining is lolz against staggering enemies, and yes ra is better for damage all arround.

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 06:27 PM
Sounds to me like gunner could use some help, hmm?

Syklo
Apr 11, 2013, 06:29 PM
Clearly this Fury Stance nerf put everyone in a Fury Stance IRL.
....ok not everyone.

But yay another free reset for me, who has an empty tree for everything except FI/TE!
Guess I'll get GU and load SP on R-atks to finally learn lv15 IF and ER before using the reset ^^;

Shinamori
Apr 11, 2013, 07:18 PM
"Fury Stance nerf"

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m26nvnNG5o1qkk10ro1_500.jpg

Probably not going to be that big of a nerf.

Zenobia
Apr 11, 2013, 07:33 PM
was hitting 40k a hit on bosses with sneak shooter and 3.6k per little hit with additional bullet......so I guess I can see why they would nerf the R att boost from it lol

Heh on my Cast I was hittign for 70-80k with aiming shot Rodeo drive doing like 20-30K serious stuff...and no I won't even speak about sneak shooter.....

Idm the nerf at all but I REALLY shouldn't be doing THAT MUCH damage LOL like no! Also yes this was with RA/HU.

Also yay 6 more resets~!

Bellion
Apr 11, 2013, 07:43 PM
70k-80k with Aiming Shot? o_o Did you have a super secret Emperor Axeon with 50 element on it?

Zenobia
Apr 11, 2013, 07:49 PM
70k-80k with Aiming Shot? o_o Did you have a super secret Emperor Axeon with 50 element on it?

Nupe my mag is pure r atk and I have a +10 Vraolet Zero with Mizer Soul and brace for impact cause dudu derped when he let me get this shit freaking shoot 4,with 39% light major darker slayer I did get some fodder ones back then. But srsly though I wish I had an Axeon....

Bellion
Apr 11, 2013, 07:59 PM
Going to assume you hit that on a Gu/Gawonda weakpoint, right? I'm about to do that myself. >_>

Edit: [SPOILER-BOX]http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3116/pso20130411212333002.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Could hit 100k if changed to light element, I guess.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 09:02 PM
ROFL.

Shame they aren't going to fix other skills like Killing Bonus and Perfect keeper. God forbid they throw techers a bone. But all of a sudden rangers are doing double damage and they pull out the nerf bat.

Did they even test this stuff? Think about how it would affect things? Or did they think we were all so stupid we'd never figure out 4th grade math?

Narrillnezzurh
Apr 11, 2013, 09:06 PM
RA is weak in damage but GU isn't? I'm not following this. Just because GU can kill 1 boss really quick doesn't really make it strong. It is not good for mob killing and not good when there is more than 1 boss.

Gunner has a single target advantage over Ranger because of the mechanics of TMGs: PAs that are easy to hit with and deal high damage but with almost no AoE potential, and a long, spammable dodge that can be roll canceled and provides excellent mobility. Adding CT/WB on top of this just means that when the boss shows its weak point it gets combo'd to death. This also isn't exclusive to single boss encounters, it happens any time Ranger AoE wouldn't work.

The traditional solution was either creative use of the gunslash or an all-class launcher, and both of these were enough to make Gu/Ra more useful than Ra/Gu. The recent changes to Hunters have made Ra/Hu competitive with Gu/Ra overall, though they still have advantages over one another in AoE and single target, respectively.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 09:09 PM
ROFL.

Shame they aren't going to fix other skills like Killing Bonus and Perfect keeper. God forbid they throw techers a bone. But all of a sudden rangers are doing double damage and they pull out the nerf bat.

Did they even test this stuff? Think about how it would affect things? Or did they think we were all so stupid we'd never figure out 4th grade math?

FYI we are the testers

that's not a joke they really almost definitely do not test any of this shit, or if they do it's not to any degree of thoroughness whatsoever

I never thought I'd look down upon japanese game companies for having no fucking idea how games work

Xaeris
Apr 11, 2013, 09:11 PM
Honestly, even if they did screw the pooch by making a laughably obvious oversight in the first place, I'm glad that they're hopping on this as quick as they are. It means they're paying attention...after the fact, at least. It does show that they really could stand to have a public test server though so that the players can put potential changes through the ringer.

Narrillnezzurh
Apr 11, 2013, 09:12 PM
I'm thoroughly convinced at this point that there are a small handful of development teams that actually test balance before making changes, and everyone else knows less about how their games work than their most casual players.

Bellion
Apr 11, 2013, 09:21 PM
This also isn't exclusive to single boss encounters, it happens any time Ranger AoE wouldn't work.

Care to give an example of this? I'm probably not thinking of the same situations as you may be thinking of.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 09:24 PM
Honestly, even if they did screw the pooch by making a laughably obvious oversight in the first place, I'm glad that they're hopping on this as quick as they are. It means they're paying attention...after the fact, at least. It does show that they really could stand to have a public test server though so that the players can put potential changes through the ringer.

This was worth something at first, but now we're getting to the most basic components of their game here. How this was overlooked is way, way beyond me. And, honestly, it's VERY telling of class balance that a hunter buff wound up making a ranged class insanely OP. Anyone crying that HU/FI or FI/HU is crazy powerful now? Anyone? Yeah, it's better than before, but is it at all crazy OP?

Everything/HU was fine except RA/HU. RA's skills are so powerful that they're only remotely balanced by the fact that they only benefit guns. RA's skills are so powerful that it's THE sub for GU, almost in a similar way to FO being THE sub for TE. They keep throwing buffs at melee, but melee is always five steps behind everything else because of its own buffs. There's a point where you stop and reevaluate just what it is you're putting bandaids on and wonder if maybe you should be considering surgery instead.

It's pretty demonstrable of their inability to not only comprehend their game, but interpret player feedback.

Obvious cause: The lead balancer mained ranger in PSU. He infiltrated the company and is finally having his revenge.

Narrillnezzurh
Apr 11, 2013, 09:25 PM
Care to give an example of this? I'm probably not thinking of the same situations as you may be thinking of.

Snow Duo when both are out. Despite the fact that there are two bosses, you're still doing single target whether you're a Gunner or a Ranger. If Gunner's single target is indeed higher than Ranger's, Gunner will be doing more damage. With how erratic Banshees and Banthers are, this would likely be true with upwards of four out at a time. Another example would be the Urban EQ with a Code: Attack for any of the larger enemies. Chances are there's only going to be four or five out at a time, which means they won't be close enough together for Launcher splash or Diffuse Shell splash to offer a significant damage gain. You could use Homing Emission, but depending on where the targets are position you may waste a significant amount of time locking on to them, not actually hit all of them, not even be able to lock on to them, etc., so you'll still essentially be doing single target.

If we assume that Gunners have higher single target, and that that higher single target is due to the higher splash potential of Ranger PAs, a Ranger's PA splash has to actually happen to a significant degree in order for it to pull ahead of Gunner. If the splash doesn't provide any significant damage gain, the Ranger is still essentially doing single target, no matter how many mobs are on the field, and is thus doing less damage than the Gunner.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 09:31 PM
Also, I feel they should be balancing this in terms of gu/ra vs. gu/hu, as opposed to exclusively ra/hu.

If gu/hu still isn't even as good as gu/ra, why oh why are they nerfing hunter :-?

This was their excuse to nerf ranger, and they decided to sweep it under the carpet instead. Pretty silly stuff.

Lunarix
Apr 11, 2013, 09:34 PM
Oh well, I'm just gonna wait for another skill reset.

Narrillnezzurh
Apr 11, 2013, 09:34 PM
The Ranger problem isn't a problem on its own though, or Gu/Ra would also be horrendously overpowered (though you could argue that it is, to an extent). Rangers are only allowed to capitalize on their obscene weak hit multipliers when they can compensate for the fact that both of their weapons do terrible damage on their own, and the Hunter buffs allow them to do that.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 09:38 PM
Snow Duo when both are out. Despite the fact that there are two bosses, you're still doing single target whether you're a Gunner or a Ranger. If Gunner's single target is indeed higher than Ranger's, Gunner will be doing more damage. With how erratic Banshees and Banthers are, this would likely be true with upwards of four out at a time. Another example would be the Urban EQ with a Code: Attack for any of the larger enemies. Chances are there's only going to be four or five out at a time, which means they won't be close enough together for Launcher splash or Diffuse Shell splash to offer a significant damage gain. You could use Homing Emission, but depending on where the targets are position you may waste a significant amount of time locking on to them, not actually hit all of them, not even be able to lock on to them, etc., so you'll still essentially be doing single target.

If we assume that Gunners have higher single target, and that that higher single target is due to the higher splash potential of Ranger PAs, a Ranger's PA splash has to actually happen to a significant degree in order for it to pull ahead of Gunner. If the splash doesn't provide any significant damage gain, the Ranger is still essentially doing single target, no matter how many mobs are on the field, and is thus doing less damage than the Gunner.


Major oversight here:

Ra actually does insane single target damage on bosses with multiple targets.

Especially Ra/Hu.

As in kills a banther faster than Gu/Ra.

Syklo
Apr 11, 2013, 09:38 PM
Imagine if SEGA bothered to clear everyone's High-damage records because of this.

Narrillnezzurh
Apr 11, 2013, 09:40 PM
Major oversight here:

Ra actually does insane single target damage on bosses with multiple targets.

Especially Ra/Hu.

As in kills a banther faster than Gu/Ra.

It's a bad example then. I haven't been playing PSO2 for very long, so I'm working off theory.

Suffice it to say, when splash would fail to hit multiple targets Gunner would pull ahead.

EDIT: Never mind.

Sp-24
Apr 11, 2013, 09:44 PM
Also, I feel they should be balancing this in terms of gu/ra vs. gu/hu, as opposed to exclusively ra/hu.

If gu/hu still isn't even as good as gu/ra, why oh why are they nerfing hunter :-?

This was their excuse to nerf ranger, and they decided to sweep it under the carpet instead. Pretty silly stuff.
Literally one skill makes RA/HU the only class worth using in the game.

The obvious solution? Fix everything except the skill that caused the problem.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 09:48 PM
It's not even WB that's doing it...I get like 16-24k damage per hit on most launcher PAs without WB even being in play.

That's....not right.

Narrillnezzurh
Apr 11, 2013, 09:51 PM
As in kills a banther faster than Gu/Ra.

Out of curiosity, how does a Ranger hit all of a Banther's target points? If it does that much damage I would think a launcher or diffuse shell would be dangerous, Homing Emission is finicky, and the targets aren't aligned properly for Piercing Shot. Gunslash?

Bellion
Apr 11, 2013, 09:57 PM
An AoE attack can only hit one target on an enemy. Homing Emission can basically have a lock-on on multiple parts and point blank x6 damage on a Banther's face. Ra/Fi was still a better choice for taking out both Snow Banther and Banshee than Gu/Ra with either Homing Emission or Aiming Shot.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 09:59 PM
Out of curiosity, how does a Ranger hit all of a Banther's target points? If it does that much damage I would think a launcher or diffuse shell would be dangerous, Homing Emission is finicky, and the targets aren't aligned properly for Piercing Shot. Gunslash?

You've got it all wrong.


It's a rifle PA and you're not hitting all targets...you're targeting them.


Homing Emission = OP.

Edit: Ninja'd to the max

Narrillnezzurh
Apr 11, 2013, 10:01 PM
Alright. Homing Emission seemed really clunky when I played around with it, guess I'll have to give it another look.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 10:04 PM
The Ranger problem isn't a problem on its own though, or Gu/Ra would also be horrendously overpowered (though you could argue that it is, to an extent). Rangers are only allowed to capitalize on their obscene weak hit multipliers when they can compensate for the fact that both of their weapons do terrible damage on their own, and the Hunter buffs allow them to do that.

The problem is 3x damage on headshots. That has to leave now. And never come back.

The thing with GU/RA or RA/GU not being overpowered is...honestly, I would argue it's underpowered by nature of being so situational. It's TOO good at headshots, and not really good enough at bodyshots. Plain and simple. It needs better bodyshot damage and less better headshot damage. Additional bullet and thrillsplosion being able to get AOE headshots is bullshit and a bandaid fix. It covers up the real issue with the class by letting you deal headshots en masse instead of letting you deal remotely decent bodyshot damage.

156% headshot damage on top of 300% additional headshot damage - for a whopping 468% damage - is goddamn insane.

Increase base damage of certain attacks (or have them always deal good bodyshot damage but never get headshot bonus damage), reduce WHA to 10-15%, let it apply to striking, then change standing snipe into a reverse ZRA where staying inside of a certain range of your last attack gets you bonus damage.

Turn RA into a precision & small AOE class for mainly ranged but also striking, as a reverse HU. Make GU's skills also work with striking, because fuck if that isn't a match made in heaven I don't know what isn't.

Let traps scale with SATK & RATK combined, or drop ATK scaling and have them scale based on your dex or level.

Change ZRA into a flat 15% damage bonus, full time, with each point increasing the range a target can be for it to apply the bonus. It would work with guns & striking, as mentioned. So would aerial advance, also as mentioned.

Then lastly, let us save weak bullet while switching weapons.

We're now looking at an interesting selection of physical (that is, bullets & swords...or really anything non-tech) combat main and sub options. FI/GU specializes in close range and airborne combat. FI/HU or HU/FI specializes in all things melee. FI/RA specializes in melee precision & breaking parts. RA/HU specializes in sustained gun combat. RA/FI specializes in...well I dunno about that one. GU/RA or RA/GU specializes in all things guns. Etc. etc. This is a hell of a lot more interesting than what we have now, and it's all because of the magic of shared multipliers.

At the very least, there's a lot more give and take going on with gun mains & striking subs than striking mains & gun subs. I wish that would change.

Bellion
Apr 11, 2013, 10:15 PM
Just finished testing Gu/Ra with TMGs and Gunslash on Banshee and Banther. My Surukurai are 50 element lightning and my Rouge Coffin is 50 element fire so I guess it was unfair for the TMGs, but Rouge Coffin with Aiming Shot slayed both faster due to being able to get Standing Snipe quicker than Elder Rebellion.

Shame that I can't test this on mechanical Banthers that are weak to Lightning or something.

Edit: I think I'd be okay with having higher body shot damages and no head shot bonuses.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 10:22 PM
Headshots don't need to go away entirely, I think they should stay. Just not at 300%. Reduce it to, like, 200%, or 150%. Then you're on a more rational level. Weak Bullet should follow accordingly.

Then increase the base damage of some weapons, or maybe nerf/boost certain attacks, just general tweaking stuff.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 10:27 PM
I guess the idea is to make it so that rangers can do reliable damage in all situations without being insanely OP for being the only class in game that gets designated weakpoints.


I'll miss you 13k Additional Bullet. ;_;

Our time was short together but...yes...I think this was my first taste of true love. Fitting that the end should be bittersweet.

Narrillnezzurh
Apr 11, 2013, 10:42 PM
Headshots don't need to go away entirely, I think they should stay. Just not at 300%. Reduce it to, like, 200%, or 150%. Then you're on a more rational level. Weak Bullet should follow accordingly.

I agree with everything in your above post, I just want to touch on one thing for a minute.

Headshots present an inherent balancing problem in that you have to take them into account when designing an encounter. That is to say, if you can hit headshots all the time you have to be balanced around always hitting them, and if you can rarely ever hit them you have to be balanced around never hitting them. In its current state, PSO2 isn't designed with any sort of by-fight weak point hit percentage in mind, so the very existence of weakpoints makes the classes that can capitalize on them overpowered on some encounters and underpowered on others, leading to the dilemma you've mentioned. Personally, unless the encounter designers start taking into account the availability of weakpoints, I don't think they'll ever be truly balanced.

Syklo
Apr 11, 2013, 10:44 PM
I agree with everything in your above post, I just want to touch on one thing for a minute.

Headshots present an inherent balancing problem in that you have to take them into account when designing an encounter. That is to say, if you can hit headshots all the time you have to be balanced around always hitting them, and if you can rarely ever hit them you have to be balanced around never hitting them. In its current state, PSO2 isn't designed with any sort of by-fight weak point hit percentage in mind, so the very existence of weakpoints makes the classes that can capitalize on them overpowered on some encounters and underpowered on others, leading to the dilemma you've mentioned. Personally, unless the encounter designers start taking into account the availability of weakpoints, I don't think they'll ever be truly balanced.
In that case, why not have each monster have its own "Headshot multiplier"?
Though maybe that's too much to ask...

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 10:44 PM
currently the list of enemies you can't easily get weakhit bonuses on is pretty short though.

UnLucky
Apr 11, 2013, 11:02 PM
Huge headshot damage would be great if it took effort to hit heads. It even happens with an auto-lock-on sometimes, and it works on any normal large glowing weak point as well, which every Darker has, which every area has, and any enemy can have if they're infected (including Darkers!).

ShinMaruku
Apr 11, 2013, 11:03 PM
ROFL.

Shame they aren't going to fix other skills like Killing Bonus and Perfect keeper. God forbid they throw techers a bone. But all of a sudden rangers are doing double damage and they pull out the nerf bat.

Did they even test this stuff? Think about how it would affect things? Or did they think we were all so stupid we'd never figure out 4th grade math?

Now I am all for shitting on sega but on many things it's much quicker to make players test your shit than devs. Great players do know the systems better than the devs they are openly trying to exploit what they can. They have many things to work on so it's never so cut and dry. That and how this game runs they are quite good at math but have no forsight. I think this is mainly lazy dev syndrome than anything.

Bellion
Apr 11, 2013, 11:05 PM
All they needed was math. 1.25x1.1x1.1x1.2x1.1=1.99 damage modifier to Ra damage. I thought Ra/Fi was already damn good with a 1.44 damage modifier with Brave Stance and Up1. An extra 50%+ boost out of nowhere with little penalty is quite an increase.

MoonAtomizer
Apr 11, 2013, 11:11 PM
I said it once, but I'll say it again. They announced the Hunter balance in Feb 28, which means they had more than a month to play around with the numbers.

The sad thing is, you don't even need to test the game to see how broken the math is. Did the person designing the new Hunter tree not even stop to think for 1 minute that, hmm, maybe having 6 damage multipliers may not be such a good idea?

ShinMaruku
Apr 11, 2013, 11:12 PM
All they needed was math. 1.25x1.1x1.1x1.2x1.1=1.99 damage modifier to Ra damage. I thought Ra/Fi was already damn good with a 1.44 damage modifier with Brave Stance and Up1. An extra 50%+ boost out of nowhere with little penalty is quite an increase.

Well that depends how their code is. It's not just simply changing a few numbers and it's not broken.
And really you guys expect thistobe clean with Sega of all people?
That's like expecting a cheat to not lie and steal

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 11:13 PM
I said it once, but I'll say it again. They announced the Hunter balance in Feb 28, which means they had more than a month to play around with the numbers.

The sad thing is, you don't even need to test the game to see how broken the math is. Did the person designing the new Hunter tree not even stop to think for 1 minute that, hmm, maybe having 6 damage multipliers may not be such a good idea?

These are people who thought 1.25*1.25*1.15*1.15 on ranger was a good idea and then never did anything about it when GU/RA became a crazy 30 second boss killing machine. And it's still like that.

They don't math.

Maronji
Apr 11, 2013, 11:13 PM
The sad thing is, you don't even need to test the game to see how broken the math is. Did the person designing the new Hunter tree not even stop to think for 1 minute that, hmm, maybe having 6 damage multipliers may not be such a good idea?

This is Sega we're talking about, the same Sega that thought bumping 19.4% Lv15 Shifta and Deband to 24.25% via a 1.25x modifier in the form of Shifta and Deband Advance was a good idea.


These are people who thought 1.25*1.25*1.15*1.15 on ranger was a good idea and then never did anything about it when GU/RA became a crazy 30 second boss killing machine. And it's still like that.

They don't math.

Exactly.

UnLucky
Apr 11, 2013, 11:18 PM
Well 1.25*1.25*1.15*1.15*3 * 1.15*1.15*1.3*5*1.35 didn't need a nerf because it can only happen once every minute.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 11:19 PM
Now I am all for shitting on sega but on many things it's much quicker to make players test your shit than devs. Great players do know the systems better than the devs they are openly trying to exploit what they can. They have many things to work on so it's never so cut and dry. That and how this game runs they are quite good at math but have no forsight. I think this is mainly lazy dev syndrome than anything.

Look one post below yours.

This is not a fighting game with frame data and weird glitches we're talking about.

We're talking about math. And as I pointed out FOURTH GRADE MATH.

You know what I did as soon as I saw the new Fury Stance on my skill tree?

I FUCKING SUBBED HUNTER.

It took me all of 30 seconds after logging in to figure out that Hu was the new Fi and Fi was now going the way of the dodo.

A TWO TIMES(2x, 200%, your damage twice. your damage + your damage. damage times 2, double damage, two hit kills become one) DAMAGE MODIFIER IS NOT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD HAPPEN BY ACCIDENT WHEN IT TAKES LESS THAN TEN SECONDS TO RUN THAT SHIT THROUGH A CALCULATOR!

And the penalty? 5% extra striking damage incurred...on a ranger. A class that by design is able to stand still and not get hit can now kill anything but a boss before it knows you're there.

I'd be fine if it was intentional. I mean that's messed up, but at least they wanted that.

But an accident?

I'm sorry, but that is indefensible. A jr high school student who plays D&D would have that put in front of them and send it back in big red letters "WHAT ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID?"

Booo Sega....boooooooooo.

Edit: I'm really not that mad, I half expected it and we don't even know what sort of nerf it is, but stuff like this just drives home sega's laziness in a way that no fan should ever overlook

UnLucky
Apr 11, 2013, 11:33 PM
If Fury Stance loses its 25% Ranged damage... Oh no, we'll just have to survive somehow with 1.25*1.25*1.15*1.15*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.2

If ALL of them lose their Ranged properties, there's always Ra/Fi.

Zenobia
Apr 11, 2013, 11:36 PM
All I know as soon as I re did my skill tree and saw the damage after I maxed Furystance combo+ I made B-Line for my cast an auto subbed HU once I tested that shit out and saw that damage I alrdy knew straight fucking breakage shit illegal on so many lvls. I took that shit to DragonEX and said boys pls~.

No srsly though im gonna enjoy this until they give out the skill resets~!

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 11:42 PM
lol yeah I'm sure someone lost their job on this one.

UnLucky
Apr 11, 2013, 11:44 PM
If anyone got fired, it's the guy who suggested they give out free resets.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 11:45 PM
I was thinking something along those lines >_>

UnLucky
Apr 11, 2013, 11:52 PM
Think of all the money we could have made on all those trees we fucked!

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 11:53 PM
Nah, the free resets are likely to pay dividends in the form of improved customer relations and higher customer retention rates. Of course, individual skill tree reset tickets are now largely worthless but, odds are, very few customers ever bothered to buy any in the first place (especially since buying new trees is cheaper and you can have a lot of them).

It's a shame, though, that they don't have anyone actively working on balancing the skills. The game could really use someone like that.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 11:55 PM
They should just find someone with a kid who plays D&D


/solved

UnLucky
Apr 11, 2013, 11:55 PM
Pay dividends in the form of improved customer relations and higher customer retention rates.

I don't think that's how Sega operates.

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 12:04 AM
I don't think that's how SEGAC operates.


FIXED<3~!

ShinMaruku
Apr 12, 2013, 03:13 AM
I don't think that's how Sega operates.

That is how Sega Sammy operates. I think that free reset is because it's standard down there

Gen2000
Apr 12, 2013, 03:42 AM
Bah, pretty weak but guess it's a good thing they did this sooner than later. I was almost about to commit to RA/HU level grinding but guess I'll wait it out now and see the results.

It was a fun powertrip while it lasted though, I was already impressed with RA56/HU33, the numbers had to be super lolworthy with HU50+ tacked on the end.

sandylecuistot
Apr 12, 2013, 06:23 AM
Gunner has a single target advantage over Ranger because of the mechanics of TMGs: PAs that are easy to hit with and deal high damage but with almost no AoE potential, and a long, spammable dodge that can be roll canceled and provides excellent mobility. Adding CT/WB on top of this just means that when the boss shows its weak point it gets combo'd to death. This also isn't exclusive to single boss encounters, it happens any time Ranger AoE wouldn't work.

The traditional solution was either creative use of the gunslash or an all-class launcher, and both of these were enough to make Gu/Ra more useful than Ra/Gu. The recent changes to Hunters have made Ra/Hu competitive with Gu/Ra overall, though they still have advantages over one another in AoE and single target, respectively.


RA's skills are so powerful that it's THE sub for GU

And seriously, how can it be fun when you HAVE to take Ranger as a sub ?
I really dont like to use weak bullet (and the Ranger skill tree as a whole), as I'm already trying to use Chain Trigger perfectly.
I also Hate the Rifle and plays TMG + Gunslash, as a Gunner of course.

How could I even take Ranger for a subclass when I don't even know when Standing Snipe gives bonus...
The only clear skills are WB and W Hit Advance.
And here I am, with dozens of points I won't use, because there's nothing on the Ranger tree to take.
Hunter tree was getting perfect, as both sides of the tree are somewhat interesting.
Fighter feels a little as Ranger (but better), since as soon as you take the stances, nothing remains that feels interesting (for me).
Force as a sub is kinda pointless for a Gunner I think and Techter, with this new Assist Advance joke makes me laugh... or not :no:

The real problem is not that The R-atk modifiers are too strong, but too strong for the Ranger to use !
I guess, it's seems logical for me that Weak Bullet needs a nerf :-? , or something like that (if they don't want to re-balance everything)
Since they are giving reset pass and all, why are they not correcting every trees at once ?

They create a Multi Party system, and that's one other problem, but they absolutely ruins it.
There is 0 challenge in MPA, and with only one ranger, it's even easier.
Ou of topic but in PsVita MPA, you absolutely understand nothing (except during Dark Falz or Big Vharda emergencies) because of slowdown which makes it even more disapointing.

The lack of balance is not really in this Hunter thing, but in the whole game... I guess.
Anyway, I already used the first Reset because I tested some (bad) skills and now I feel like I will have to do it again.
I guess I should be happy they accept to give reset pass .

MoonAtomizer
Apr 12, 2013, 07:29 AM
I guess, it's seems logical for me that Weak Bullet needs a nerf :-? , or something like that (if they don't want to re-balance everything)
Since they are giving reset pass and all, why are they not correcting every trees at once ?

I think what's important to take away from all this is to realize that SEGA didn't design the game around the skill trees, or vice versa. That's why everything seems like, what giga said, a bandaid patch to something that honestly requires surgery.

How often does the game require you to swap Hunter stances? To gather aggro using War Cry/Showtime? To use traps or non-weak bullets? It doesn't.

I actually find it quite funny people are using Guard Stance at all. You're not just losing 5% damage, you're also losing the 25% damage that Fury Stance gives (plus the additional modifiers from FSU(s) and FCU) by opting to use Guard Stance instead.
If PSO2 is about hunting rares, then that means people should want to be efficient. And in a game like this, efficient = kill your enemy before it kills you.

Darki
Apr 12, 2013, 08:01 AM
If PSO2 is about hunting rares, then that means people should want to be efficient. And in a game like this, efficient = kill your enemy before it kills you.

Not everybody sees hunting rares as their goal, nor enjoy "efficient" builds. I know people who love tank builds and use Guard Stance constantly. It would be true that its not the most efficient build, but you can't really expect that people "should" want to base their fun on the same elements as you.

And the problem is that the game fails to convey this. I think the game should aim to satisfy different playstyles, not to promote everybody doing the same.

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 08:16 AM
Let's see if there's a pattern here with classes that depend on other classes. Let's take some pretty cookie cutter damage skill templates and just compare the numbers. These skills will be useful in mostly all situations, at all times.

Hunter (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04fb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbInqnGK cA6cAfGA00000Ib00000ib00000ib00007b000009b000008): 1.1*1.25*1.1*1.1*1.2=1.9965
Ranger (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04IAb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbIn000 0009b00000ibJdJ29k0009b00007b000009b000008): 1.25*1.25*1.15*1.15=2.0664
Force (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04bIb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbIn000 0009b00000ib00000ib000064OIk2XcKjbnbnIg0000ib00000 8): (Force is in actuality more complex than this, but I'll go with the kneejerk fire tree) 1.2*1.1*1.1*1.2*1.06=1.8469

Fighter (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04Inb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbIn000 0009brIGAfGF0000lb00000ib00007b000009b000008): 1.15*1.2 = 1.38 or 1.25*1.3=1.625
Gunner: uhm...
techer: uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhm...

So yeah. Which classes most depend on other classes for damage skills? Techer HIGHLY depends on force for tech damage. It gets minimal, but tangible, gains from HU and FI for its blunt force face mashing - especially now. Gunner HIGHLY depends on ranger for its damage bonuses.

How do we fix this? IMO, nerf everything's damage mods down to ~70% at best, and change gunner's skills to be more useful. Make aerial advance when YOU are in midair. Make ZRA a fixed bonus with more sp = more applicable distance. Give techer some bonuses based on maybe hp? Perfect caster? Halfline caster? It's a bandaid, but techer is a fundamentally flawed concept (split design is inherently weak and needs overpowering skills to work - just by nature of using multipliers on lower stats)

Omega-z
Apr 12, 2013, 08:36 AM
gigawuts - wouldn't it be higher then that for HU since you have JA1,JA2, FS, FSu1, FSu2 and FSC. So shouldn't it not look like this then 1.25*1.1*1.1*1.2*1.1*1.1=2.19%? Also if there dropping the rate from 25% for FS most likely it's going to be 10~15% instead, also they need to do this for the up's. Also if they change how the JA bonuses are, to give bonuses to Melee only that should fix it. So then RA would have a 1.37 ~ 1.46% boost instead, with Tech user's just getting that 1.2.

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 08:41 AM
I didn't count FSU2, since it's so far out of the way. After all of that 55 SP spent that's another 15 to get to it, and I'm assuming players will want other things such as gears, step attack, just guard, etc. This is meant to be a tree you can use for basically anything.

If anything, ranger's overpowering flaw is that it has nothing else required to perform. There's no give and take between multipliers and survivability, or multipliers and unique abilities. Hunter's only just barely now getting such good combined multipliers, and it's doing it with more SP, at the cost of survivability options it really benefits from having (that cost silly amounts of SP to get to, too).

But ranger? If you have weak bullet you have all the utility skills you need. Every single other SP can go into damage multipliers. You can get the 4 damage multiplier skills and STILL get just reversal AND killing bonus 10. How wack is that? There's nothing you sacrifice except...yeah, nothing.

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 09:07 AM
Not everybody sees hunting rares as their goal, nor enjoy "efficient" builds. I know people who love tank builds and use Guard Stance constantly. It would be true that its not the most efficient build, but you can't really expect that people "should" want to base their fun on the same elements as you.

And the problem is that the game fails to convey this. I think the game should aim to satisfy different playstyles, not to promote everybody doing the same.

^ Agreeing here I know a person in or team who just dotes on Guard Stance like literally and they have some people who prefer to live longer and take hits rather than killing the enemy faster. Sure the game is and has been about Offense beating Defense, but hey you just have those kinda people and im not one to bash any person build as they are free to there own decision.

EDIT: Has anyone ever tried out War Cry? Does it work like they said it would? Cause I've wanted to try this out.

Skyly HUmar
Apr 12, 2013, 09:14 AM
im not one to bash any person build as they are free to there own decision.



Well I AM!

In all seriousness though, I know alot of tanky players, they have fun at what they do lol, and as long as they are enjoying the game and being useful, who am I to say theyre playing the wrong way?

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 09:16 AM
Well I AM!

In all seriousness though, I know alot of tanky players, they have fun at what they do lol, and as long as they are enjoying the game and being useful, who am I to say theyre playing the wrong way?

LMFAO~ Touche sir touche but on a srs note Sky any word on War Cry,does it really work as they say it would? Any info would be good as I need a verdict if not i'll test it myself.

Rayokarna
Apr 12, 2013, 09:22 AM
EDIT: Has anyone ever tried out War Cry? Does it work like they said it would? Cause I've wanted to try this out.

Yeah it does, it works for about a couple seconds and once the boss does one attack it will change to the highest DPS character again (I only have mine at level 2).

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 09:26 AM
Yeah it does, it works for about a couple seconds and once the boss does one attack it will change to the highest DPS character again (I only have mine at level 2).

Lvl 2 ehh? Now im interested if you could give me an estimate on said seconds how much would you say it felt like with lvl 2?

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 09:28 AM
I didn't count FSU2, since it's so far out of the way. After all of that 55 SP spent that's another 15 to get to it, and I'm assuming players will want other things such as gears, step attack, just guard, etc. This is meant to be a tree you can use for basically anything.

If anything, ranger's overpowering flaw is that it has nothing else required to perform. There's no give and take between multipliers and survivability, or multipliers and unique abilities. Hunter's only just barely now getting such good combined multipliers, and it's doing it with more SP, at the cost of survivability options it really benefits from having (that cost silly amounts of SP to get to, too).

But ranger? If you have weak bullet you have all the utility skills you need. Every single other SP can go into damage multipliers. You can get the 4 damage multiplier skills and STILL get just reversal AND killing bonus 10. How wack is that? There's nothing you sacrifice except...yeah, nothing.

...not on Ra >_> You can get those things but with 70SP that's just enough to max FSU2

Rayokarna
Apr 12, 2013, 09:30 AM
Lvl 2 ehh? Now im interested if you could give me an estimate on said seconds how much would you say it felt like with lvl 2?

About 5 to 15 seconds. Enough time to allow someone else who was in a bit of trouble to pick themselves up. Saying that I'm using the Ranger utility tree so my damage is garbage so I don't have the DPS to keep it's attention.

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 09:44 AM
...not on Ra >_> You can get those things but with 70SP that's just enough to max FSU2

I know that, but my point was to create a template build every related damagetype would benefit from.

You guys are massively missing the point just for the sake of arguing 10% damage on an already high multiplier.

RA is way too strong, HU is also arguably too strong, as is FO. TE and GU are unable to compete without subs, due to not gaining enough damage as they level up. FI, who used to be way too good according to most, isn't quite as good as everyone thinks. I've been saying that for ages. FI is in actuality mediocre without its stances, which is very telling of the class itself.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 09:46 AM
No I'm just saying some people have a perfectly valid reason to pick that up. it's not just a 10% multiplier at that point...it's 10% of 200%..that's another 2-3k per hit on some PAs if not more.

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 09:46 AM
About 5 to 15 seconds. Enough time to allow someone else who was in a bit of trouble to pick themselves up. Saying that I'm using the Ranger utility tree so my damage is garbage so I don't have the DPS to keep it's attention.

Oh my im tempted as hell now to try this thx mate tasty info indeed<3~!

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 09:49 AM
No I'm just saying some people have a perfectly valid reason to pick that up. it's not just a 10% multiplier at that point...it's 10% of 200%..that's another 2-3k per hit on some PAs if not more.

We seem to interpret numbers differently. I call it 10% if it's a 10% multiplier. The only time it wouldn't be 10% is if it's a flat added or subtracted bonus. 10% added on top of 200% would be 5%. 10% as a multiplied bonus of 200% is, yes, 10%. Your 2k hits will be dealing 2.2k. That's 10%.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 10:41 AM
yeah but that's just it. Ranger right now isn't hitting for 2k, it's hitting for 10-80k

yes it's 10% more damage than you'd be doing but it results in an extra 20% over your standard. if a hit for 80k is going to do almost 10k more why wouldn't you grab that? I mean I get that your assuming the have only 1 tree. but some of us have 2-3. for us, It would be crazy not to get that extra mod on at least one of them.

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 10:50 AM
It could be 10 bajillion, if the skill adds 1 bajillion for 11 bajillion total damage it's still 10%.

I'm not talking about RA/HU with that tree. I'm talking about RA/HU, HU/FI, FI/HU, everything/HU, HU/everything. What you do with the last 15 SP is your fucking choice, I don't care. That is the bare template for offensive HUing, same as the FI tree.

ShilohSham
Apr 12, 2013, 10:54 AM
well I'm a Ra/Hu and we kinda do stupid dmg,

I have an 1198 Ratk and 538 dex yet I can hit anywhere from 20k-26k sneak shots on ragne or any boss for that matter and the only nice thing about my rilfe is its 50% light.

so given a player with good Rilfe/gunslash, could and would do so much more. Ive seen other Ra/Hu do 4.5k add bullets

so as an Ra/Hu I dont mind the nerf as long as it reasonable

before this update I was doing 10k-16k if I got lucky so as long as I dont drop below that im good

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 10:57 AM
that's a lot of dex O_o


It could be 10 bajillion, if the skill adds 1 bajillion for 11 bajillion total damage it's still 10%.

I'm not talking about RA/HU with that tree. I'm talking about RA/HU, HU/FI, FI/HU, everything/HU, HU/everything. What you do with the last 15 SP is your fucking choice, I don't care. That is the bare template for offensive HUing, same as the FI tree.

I'm not sure why you're getting bent out of shape, I was just trying to make a distinction since you basically suggested that last 10% bonus wasn't worth getting under any circumstance.

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 11:03 AM
that's a lot of dex O_o



I'm not sure why you're getting bent out of shape, I was just trying to make a distinction since you basically suggested that last 10% bonus wasn't worth getting under any circumstance.

No, I did not. I said I didn't count it because that 15 SP precludes any and all other options, and the template is meant to be expanded on and used for all situations - as in not just subbing for ranger when it's going to be nerfed in five days. 10% does not magically become more than 10% just because 10% of a big number is another big number. 10% is 10%. It's up to the player to determine if it's worth it or not. Killing something in one hit vs. two does not make 10% more than 10%.

Like I said, you're missing the entire point of the post for the sake of going on about one eensy weensy detail, which is really what PSOW seems to be all about and why I put so many freaking notes in parenthesis in most of my posts (god forbid I finally don't, and it of course happens again). Somebody made a post detailing finer class balance details? I see something that could in some way shape or form be misconstrued as somehow being an opinion that I may/may not disagree with - I better go on about it for two pages and drown out the point of the post entirely.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 11:08 AM
Listen. I'm saying that this thread is about Ra/Hu and you're telling me that you're making a damage calculation based on anything BUT Ra/Hu.

I personally don't see much point in the extra 10%, but MANY people do and for pure damage which Ra/Hu is now a master of, what else are they really doing to spend those extra 15 points on? step attack is ok, but not great. they could put into iron will but they're not nearly is prone to dying as melee is.

All I'm saying is that 10% bonus is perfectly valid in the context of this thread.

I'll leave it at that.

Z-0
Apr 12, 2013, 11:11 AM
i like pie

correction: sega are not adding r-def to guard stansu

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 11:14 AM
Listen. I'm saying that this thread is about Ra/Hu and you're telling me that you're making a damage calculation based on anything BUT Ra/Hu.

I personally don't see much point in the extra 10%, but MANY people do and for pure damage which Ra/Hu is now a master of, what else are they really doing to spend those extra 15 points on? step attack is ok, but not great. they could put into iron will but they're not nearly is prone to dying as melee is.

All I'm saying is that 10% bonus is perfectly valid in the context of this thread.

I'll leave it at that.

But that's the point. This thread is about RA/HU nerfing.

The issue with RA/HU is not limited to itself. RA/HU is only overpowered because of its combined multipliers. Is HU/FI overpowered with those multipliers? No. 10% would not make it magically overpowered, either. Is FI/HU overpowered with those multipliers? No. Is GU/HU overpowered? No. Shit, GU/HU can't even compare with GU/RA. Only RA/HU is overpowered here.

I broke down the combined multipliers of each class and wound up with HU comparing roughly with RA, both above FO, and GU and TE with essentially nothing. TE can get 44% from its elemental masteries and another 20% for EWHA. TE and GU have other things going for them, sure, but they really depend on subs for their damage multipliers.

Don't even try to assert that something can be only about one class combo. Class balance is about equilibrium. Nothing was made overpowered with HU except RA. When looking at sub options, RA tops out over HU for the only other ranged class - GU. Seems pretty straightforward what the problem actually is to me.

Z-0
Apr 12, 2013, 11:19 AM
also i made sure to get step attack on ra/hu just so I could travel faster than ra/fi with fist gear. :3 also assault buster is pretty badass on some things now, since I can one shot shit. also gets easy killing bonus pointz.

rawrz. screw the 10% extra damage, it's op enough. I do wish I took out points from JA boost and put them into FSU2 though (since I have 5 leftover SP, which is enough to unlock FSU2), because that would increase my non-JA damage which is so useful for Launcher.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 11:23 AM
My take on it was in the context of subclassing. Emphasizing that these two classes had a combined total of roughly a 440% damage mod before WB. basically I was agreeing with the person who first added the "correction" saying that these two classes were far too synergistic and that RA was able to take better advantage of the new multipliers than even melee.

We're saying the same thing here I'm just saying it's actually worse than you're making it out to be for this class combination.


also i made sure to get step attack on ra/hu just so I could travel faster than ra/fi with fist gear. :3 also assault buster is pretty badass on some things now, since I can one shot shit. also gets easy killing bonus pointz.

rawrz. screw the 10% extra damage, it's op enough. I do wish I took out points from JA boost and put them into FSU2 though (since I have 5 leftover SP, which is enough to unlock FSU2), because that would increase my non-JA damage which is so useful for Launcher.

I personally haven't tried triple dashing. is step attack required? I thought it was but I had someone get into it with me about step attack on a Ra main.

Gardios
Apr 12, 2013, 11:26 AM
i like pie

correction: sega are not adding r-def to guard stansu

WHY DO YOU HATE ME SEGA

;__;

Z-0
Apr 12, 2013, 11:31 AM
I personally haven't tried triple dashing. is step attack required? I thought it was but I had someone get into it with me about step attack on a Ra main.
It doesn't require step attack, but it makes it faster. It reduces the lag between the third and first dash, especially if you use the two allclass daggers.

RA/HU is mainly faster because you can use Assault Buster though. Swap into it and spam that (instead of Straight Charge) and you're faster than Knuckle Dashing with Straight Charge though.

Triple Dashing isn't the easiest thing to do though, it takes some practice. Some people use macros for it, although not everybody.

ShinMaruku
Apr 12, 2013, 12:01 PM
WHY DO YOU HATE ME SEGA

;__;

Don't worry Sega hates sega. Oh and I hate EA and Jay Wilson.

sandylecuistot
Apr 12, 2013, 12:35 PM
In fact, the whole topic is "wrong".

The real subject should not be :
- Fury Stance Nerf for RA/HU (also Guard Stance buff)
But :
- Fury Stance Nerf and Guard Stance buff

A topic can be anything, but that means we would have to open another one to talk about **/Hu other than Ra/Hu ?

Anyway, I just hope the Hunter side will at least surpass the 150% weak point of Weak Hit Advance...
I agree with most of Gigawuts messages. And as I think he said, it's too easy to access big numbers with the Ranger (with less than 40 skill points, something like that).
And for the hunter, you'd have to use almost all of you points for a result not even as "strong".

And while the Ranger fets everything without using all of its points, the Force/Techter absolutely can't even take ONLY the Mastery skills for example.
Does Ranger have so many useless skills that they compensate by giving the best directly ?

SEGA... dumb or genius. Something tells me its not genius.
If they can change the stances right after the update, why couldn't they do the same at the beginning ?
Nobody said anything at first ?
And what about the ??? skills 10* mastery, Assist Extend and so on ?

... O.o , this is crazy.
Surely it's better to forget and just play without trying to understand anything.
Before I played people was talking about RNG, but seriously, skills are a lot worse I think. Or maybe the skills ARE Randomly generated, as the corrections...

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 12:42 PM
Oh no, people were saying that about fury stance since day 1. Before day 1, actually, it was recognized as an issue in the pre-open beta test, and presumably as far back as the alpha. Yes, it's really taken Sega this long to get to it.

UnLucky
Apr 12, 2013, 12:47 PM
Hunter (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04fb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbInqnGK cA6cAfGA00000Ib00000ib00000ib00007b000009b000008): 1.1*1.25*1.1*1.1*1.2=1.9965
Ranger (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04IAb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbIn000 0009b00000ibJdJ29k0009b00007b000009b000008): 1.25*1.25*1.15*1.15=2.0664
Force (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04bIb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbIn000 0009b00000ib00000ib000064OIk2XcKjbnbnIg0000ib00000 8): (Force is in actuality more complex than this, but I'll go with the kneejerk fire tree) 1.2*1.1*1.1*1.2*1.06=1.8469

Fighter (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04Inb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbIn000 0009brIGAfGF0000lb00000ib00007b000009b000008): 1.15*1.2 = 1.38 or 1.25*1.3=1.625
Gunner: uhm...
techer: uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhm...
Fury Stance should be 15% when maxed and Fury Combo should be 5% per JA in a row (stacks forever idgaf). There, now they're like 170%+ for almost no downside except you have to JA.

Standing Snipe and Weak Hit should all be taken down 5%. SS is really easy to get with Ranger weapons, I mean you just do a normal shot and JA any PA and it works. If headshots or other weak points were harder to hit, the huge bonus wouldn't be a problem. But they're not, so it is. Wow, that's still a 174% passive boost, plus Weak Bullet (why is this triple damage?)

Force loses a lot when specializing, but with two trees you can spec Flame and Bolt both for crazy damage on anything. Still it's like (1.1*1.1*1.1)=133% no masteries, (1.33*1.09*1.05)=152% for off-focus, (1.33*1.2*1.05)=167% on-focus, or (1.33*1.2*1.2)=191% for absolute maximum without S Charge or PP Save. If all elements were worth using, these skills would be totally fine the way they are.

Gunner really needs Aerial Advance to be when they are in the air (but become 15%). And have Perfect Keeper go under AA instead of ZRA2. What I'd change for ZRA is to be 25% at point blank, but get docked 5% for set distances away from the target, so you could still get 5-10% almost all the time. Chain Finish I'd bring down to 1.2x, since 70% damage during chains without any combo building is ridiculous, and it goes up to +175% just from CF. Not sure what I'd do with TMG Gear, but maybe tweak the gauge decay if it needs it, or scale gauge generation so it's harder to max (but easy to get halfway or so), or give diminishing returns per segment.

Element Weak Hit seriously needs to be more than 20%. And the first point is only 1%? Why is it worse than an individual Mastery when it's more restrictive? And it should boost Wand Gear's explosions. And Wands should have the highest melee attack multiplier in the game instead of just being identical to Sword. Techer also needs some sort of passive PP regen enabler, like the Attack PP Revival I suggested earlier, where you'll regen PP during PAs and techs, but not while charging either one. This single handedly makes it a worthy melee or ranged sub, as well as slightly more desirable for Force too. As it is, it's just plain retarded to get absolutely ZERO PP regen while casting techs, even with EVERYTHING up at once supposedly increasing PP regen.

MoonAtomizer
Apr 12, 2013, 12:53 PM
Maybe Fury Stance would make more sense if it didn't last for 10 minutes. idk, something akin to Photon Flare in terms of active and cooldown time? From an efficiency viewpoint, why would you ever not have Fury Stance active?

lol Photon Flare.

UnLucky
Apr 12, 2013, 12:55 PM
Fury Flare gives 20% increased damage for 30s with a 2 minute cooldown and you take 20% more damage as well. Oh and it doesn't boost Ranged damage. And the penalty? It's on all damage types.

That would still be way better than Photon Flare.

Acel
Apr 13, 2013, 11:53 PM
Sigh. The RA/HU build was supposed to be "my secret" Racaseal Friend Partner AI setup that is incredibly overwhelming with the Launcher glitch... sigh SEGA... why~~ Y U NERFING MY ULTIMATE FRIEND PARTNER AI?! I designed it to kill players for you!

DreXxiN
Apr 14, 2013, 01:19 AM
Sigh. The RA/HU build was supposed to be "my secret" Racaseal Friend Partner AI setup that is incredibly overwhelming with the Launcher glitch... sigh SEGA... why~~ Y U NERFING MY ULTIMATE FRIEND PARTNER AI?! I designed it to kill players for you!

Because it wasn't really a secret, mate. That's how things like this are fixed and addressed...because they aren't secrets. Lots of avid TAers from the west coast have already been abusing Fury Stance and hybrid classes along with many JP players.

With that said, I will also miss abusing Friend Partners who utilize this. :)

Reia
Apr 17, 2013, 03:29 AM
Just as I thought, the nerf is 15% R-atk less, so instead of 125% it's 110%, still that won't put the rangers down :3

Chik'Tikka
Apr 17, 2013, 03:41 AM
i still think 115% is fairer+^_^+

Alisha
Apr 17, 2013, 03:42 AM
accept the ups and combo were left untouched

gigawuts
Apr 17, 2013, 08:59 AM
Lol this does essentially nothing, GG sega.

Z-0
Apr 17, 2013, 09:04 AM
Yuuup, still no reason to not go RA/HU, lol.

Reiketsu
Apr 17, 2013, 09:16 AM
God, this whole thing had me quite scared, but I just played a bit and didn't really notice much of a difference...
*so relieved*

gigawuts
Apr 17, 2013, 09:16 AM
I wonder if they'll actually nerf ranger's absurd multipliers now.

(Probably not, more nerfs for HU incoming like a blanket nerf to JAB 1 & 2 and FSC).

I still love how a 2x multiplier on a melee class doesn't really change much for melee and winds up overpowering ranger. Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinda making a statement there.

Bellion
Apr 17, 2013, 09:29 AM
I'm still hitting 44k+ on Banshee and Banther heads with Shifta, Shifta Drink Ex, and Cheesecake with Aiming Shot. Can easily hit 45-46k+ with the team tree buff added on that. And when I decide to stop being lazy and get HU to 60, I can get FSU2 with my second HU build as a dedicated sub class. \(・▽・)/

Zyrusticae
Apr 17, 2013, 10:31 AM
Before: 1.25*1.1*1.1*1.2 = 1.815
After: 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 1.5972

So actually a fairly sizable nerf. Hunter is still ridiculously strong as a ranger sub, though. I suspect they're just too afraid of pissing off players to make any real balance changes. Damn weird Japanese corporate structure...

gigawuts
Apr 17, 2013, 10:33 AM
Before: 1.25*1.1*1.1*1.2 = 1.815
After: 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 1.5972

So actually a fairly sizable nerf. Hunter is still ridiculously strong as a ranger sub, though. I suspect they're just too afraid of pissing off players to make any real balance changes. Damn weird Japanese corporate structure...

You forgot two of the 10% bonuses, either FSU's or JAB's. So it was really 2.2, and is now 1.93.

A nerf of LOLWHATTHEFLYINGFUCK to LOLWHATTHEREGULARFUCK.

Gardios
Apr 17, 2013, 10:41 AM
x1.93 would be fine if the downside wasn't a ridiculously low 5% damage increase imo.

Coatl
Apr 17, 2013, 10:44 AM
I wonder if they'll actually nerf ranger's absurd multipliers now.

(Probably not, more nerfs for HU incoming like a blanket nerf to JAB 1 & 2 and FSC).

I still love how a 2x multiplier on a melee class doesn't really change much for melee and winds up overpowering ranger. Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinda making a statement there.

If they touch RA they run the risk of Gunner being even more forgotten.

Zyrusticae
Apr 17, 2013, 10:57 AM
Well, ranger is just untouchable.

1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 3 (Weak Bullet) = 6.199. There is no other class in the game that can manage those kinds of numbers.

Of course, WITHOUT Weak Bullet it's considerably less impressive, and even moreso considering how situational Standing Snipe is. Personally I think the only thing on ranger that actually needs a nerf is Weak Bullet, but of course they'll never touch it with how central it's become to ranger gameplay.

It would be nice if they changed Zero Range Advance/Aerial Advance into something that actually makes sense... it's fucking weird for hunters to have a less situational percentage bonus than bloody gunners, of all things.

gigawuts
Apr 17, 2013, 10:59 AM
x1.93 would be fine if the downside wasn't a ridiculously low 5% damage increase imo.

It really, really would not be, though. People were saying fighter's bonuses when subbed for ranger were OP as hell before. Now we're looking at HU's 2x bonus and people are actually going "eh, it's not that bad."

Something is inherently wrong with the way HU's bonuses and skill tree are set up. Too many small bonuses spread across too many skills, with too little focus on being able to do other things decently well. If they compress the bonuses into fewer but more effective skills, then reduce their total effectiveness, then increase the base performance of melee weapons it'd be looking better. Every hunter should be able to pick one tank skill while maxing out offensive multipliers, and they shouldn't have 5 SP worth of unrelated prereqs either. If you want a REAL glass cannon, the diminishing SP return skills (as in after maxing the multipliers) already exist in the form of ATK ups. If you ask me FSC should be removed and JAB should both be increased to 21%, then turn FSC into some amount of PP reduction when JAing during fury stance.

As it is, the glass cannon build is a bit too necessary to be decently effective, and hunters are too forced into choosing between good offense, moderate defense, or terrible both. The defense skills are a joke, and cost too freaking much for what they offer. The defense side of HU is pretty much TE's tree. Lots of SP for not a lot of advantages.

Now that they're handing out resets for changes maybe they'll actually do right by HU, once and for all. Fighter's tree seemingly being designed to force you to pick between brave and wise is another big mistake (It isn't quite there yet, but note the stance ups are just #1 - with more presumably on the way).

Ideally, the HU tree's multipliers should more resemble the ranger tree's multipliers, with prereqs that aid you offensively (satk up for offense and sdef up for defense), and instead of weak bullet & killing bonus you spend the excess SP on one or two of the defense skills.

Also, less emphasis should be placed on maxing skills, and more emphasis placed on getting a bit of an investment into them. The 1-5 SP rule is ideal, such as the way Territory Burst, Brave/Wise Stance (not the ups), and Fury Stance's offensive bonus are all balanced. Great initial gains, and the last 9-5 SP are just for people who are speccing.


If they touch RA they run the risk of Gunner being even more forgotten.

This can be fixed by actually properly balancing gunner as a standalone class, which it needs just as badly as techer :[

Saffran
Apr 17, 2013, 11:15 AM
I remember way back, I was absolutely convinced that Weak Bullet allowed you to transform any part hit into a weak point. Was it wishful thinking on my side or was it really what it was designed for, I don't know, but I remember freaking out when I noticed that it was simply a x3 damage multiplyer even on weak spots. Ranger would be probably balanced out if WB didn't apply to those.

Somebody mentionned Over End being badly balanced, I'd have it use 100% of your PP. It's called "Over End" and has a ludicrous multiplyer as well as an over the top cheesy animation which you'd expect in an anime movie or something. (in all honesty I'm just sick and tired of seeing idiots spamming it non-stop against Falz, I have no beef against the technique itself)

The rest of the arguments are a bit outside of my grasp. I never use stances, I've never cared for them and I don't intend to start.

Gardios
Apr 17, 2013, 11:28 AM
But doesn't the problem lie in Rangers and defense being almost completely irrelevant?

If Fury Stance worked like it should, you hit like a truck and and have the stamina of a toddler. Right now, you do hit like a truck... and there's no toddler anywhere. Guard reduces damage immensely/completely, the downside being that you have to face the correct direction (which is ambiguous for some attacks, but that's another issue). Or you just dodge and take no damage whatsoever. No downside attached to it, there's nothing to stop you from doing so (like immobilizes or dodge cooldowns).

There's no reason to not go full glass canon because building defensively doesn't reward you with anything right now.

As for Rangers, they should inherently have less base damage to keep them in check for being ranged. Fury Stance should make them stronger, but still weaker than melee characters due to low base damage. But then you get stuff like Homing Emission and Weak Bullet, although I'm not sure if I should bring up the latter considering it benefits the entire party...

sandylecuistot
Apr 17, 2013, 11:29 AM
In fact the nerf is more on Gunner/Hunter than Ranger/Hunter.
That is pretty sad.
At least it's not THAT bad. I'll continue to play Gunner/Hunter, with Gunslash + TMG, since the bonus is far better than it was before (+150 in S-atk) and Fury combo up is still powerful.

Guess the other stance begins to be crazy. 25% S-damage reduction + 200 in S-def, that seems quite a boost in S-def.
At low level you must be invincibile with this at level 10...

ShinMaruku
Apr 17, 2013, 11:33 AM
I knew sega was still going to fuck up. :P

Kilich
Apr 17, 2013, 11:38 AM
They did it a long time ago. I don't know if the current design is flawed because they took out a few pieces for future updates, or because they just didn't care enough to balance it properly.

Also, is anything heard about Korean release? I remember reading, after release, that they wanted to do it .

Skyly HUmar
Apr 17, 2013, 11:41 AM
I remember way back, I was absolutely convinced that Weak Bullet allowed you to transform any part hit into a weak point. Was it wishful thinking on my side or was it really what it was designed for, I don't know, but I remember freaking out when I noticed that it was simply a x3 damage multiplyer even on weak spots. Ranger would be probably balanced out if WB didn't apply to those.

Somebody mentionned Over End being badly balanced, I'd have it use 100% of your PP. It's called "Over End" and has a ludicrous multiplyer as well as an over the top cheesy animation which you'd expect in an anime movie or something. (in all honesty I'm just sick and tired of seeing idiots spamming it non-stop against Falz, I have no beef against the technique itself)

The rest of the arguments are a bit outside of my grasp. I never use stances, I've never cared for them and I don't intend to start.

Over end is very slow and extremely situational, and tbh the first 2 swings just seem like theyre just there to be there. The PA itself would be better if it was like the PSZ version with just 1 big slash.

If you wanna rant about a PA being overused, why not bag on DA?

UnLucky
Apr 17, 2013, 11:42 AM
They could have completely removed the ranged damage multiplier from Fury Stance and Ra/Hu would still be overpowered.

All other bonuses still add up to 175% on JA

Coatl
Apr 17, 2013, 11:43 AM
At low level you must be invincibile with this at level 10...

It pretty much already makes you invincible. 3:
But as long as you still get knocked down for taking 1 dmg, guard stance will always be an unimpressive skill.

gravityvx
Apr 17, 2013, 11:45 AM
Over end is very slow and extremely situational, and tbh the first 2 swings just seem like theyre just there to be there. The PA itself would be better if it was like the PSZ version with just 1 big slash.

If you wanna rant about a PA being overused, why not bag on DA?

The first two swings cause massive stagger to normal enemies, enabling the full blow of the last swing, extremely good in AQ. But the point still stands, Over End is situational at best and leaves you completely vulnerable compared to...well any other PA on all classes in the game. Pretty much high risk high reward, unless you do it at the right time, more times than not you will get your ass kicked while swinging it.

Skyly HUmar
Apr 17, 2013, 11:46 AM
They could have completely removed the ranged damage multiplier from Fury Stance and Ra/Hu would still be overpowered.

All other bonuses still add up to 175% on JA

I was thinking more allong the lines of only fury skills counting twards R damage and keeping JA melee boosting only., that would put it at about brave stance's output.

And tbqh i dont see why HU should give ra such a big boost in dps when on the other hand, ra doesnt do jack shit for any class other than gu.

UnLucky
Apr 17, 2013, 11:47 AM
As long as Fury Stance can give you 180% damage while active, I think taking it's acceptable to take what, 60% more damage than maxed Guard Stance+Up?

Gardios
Apr 17, 2013, 11:49 AM
And tbqh i dont see why HU should give ra such a big boost in dps when on the other hand, ra doesnt do jack shit for any class other than gu.

Ranger offers traps!

Now if only they weren't useless...

Coatl
Apr 17, 2013, 11:50 AM
They should just remove the s-atk penalty from guard stance entirely. Not being able to use the fury stance skills is a penalty on its own.

UnLucky
Apr 17, 2013, 11:51 AM
Hunter and Fighter should only modify Striking damage. To hell with hybridizing. No other class does anything for anyone else, so why should melee?

Zyrusticae
Apr 17, 2013, 11:51 AM
As long as Fury Stance can give you 180% damage while active, I think taking it's acceptable to take what, 60% more damage than maxed Guard Stance+Up?
I think you mean to say 6000% more damage.

Maxed out Guard Stance can cause incoming attacks to do 1 damage. It'll do it with surprising regularity, even. This is because defense applies before PA modifiers, which even enemies have for their attacks. It also scales at a 1:1 ratio with attack stats, unlike previous PSO games where attack scaled faster than defense.

Not that it matters in a game where speed is considerably more important than defense, and defensive skills that negate damage completely exist and are easy to use.

Skyly HUmar
Apr 17, 2013, 11:51 AM
The first two swings cause massive stagger to normal enemies, enabling the full blow of the last swing, extremely good in AQ. But the point still stands, Over End is situational at best and leaves you completely vulnerable compared to...well any other PA on all classes in the game. Pretty much high risk high reward, unless you do it at the right time, more times than not you will get your ass kicked while swinging it.

And yeah i get what youre saying, but i mean, why not just make it 1 big swing? Sacrifice the AoE for 1 big power hit and you have a nice fast PA, it would be the sneek shooter of the melee class.

Generally people use OE for 2 things, clearing a cluster of enemies, and damaging bosses. However, if you have a force in your party its doubtful you'll hit more than the first swing on a cluster unless it's huge. And if you want to just damage a boss a 1 swing PA would be far better.

Coatl
Apr 17, 2013, 11:54 AM
Because sneak shooter is fast and Over End is slow. Fitting for each class. 3:

UnLucky
Apr 17, 2013, 11:55 AM
I think you mean to say 6000% more damage.

Maxed out Guard Stance can cause incoming attacks to do 1 damage. It'll do it with surprising regularity, even. This is because defense applies before PA modifiers, which even enemies have for their attacks. It also scales at a 1:1 ratio with attack stats, unlike previous PSO games where attack scaled faster than defense.

Not that it matters in a game where speed is considerably more important than defense, and defensive skills that negate damage completely exist and are easy to use.
What? No. Nobody is taking 6000 damage.

Before the percentage change, the difference between the stances was 450 S-Def. Now it's 200, but you get a damage multiplier after PA mods.

Skyly HUmar
Apr 17, 2013, 11:56 AM
Because sneak shooter is fast and Over End is slow. Fitting for each class. 3:

I guess, thats just my take on it.

Coatl
Apr 17, 2013, 11:59 AM
I dunno. I just think it is fitting for a slow sword to get a slowass PA. I actually like the 2 swings anyhow, those end up killing the trash more often than not.

Skyly HUmar
Apr 17, 2013, 12:00 PM
I like that too, but its kinda moot when we have sonic arrow.

EDIT: well, maybe im just wanting it to be like WL where every PA serves a purpose.

gravityvx
Apr 17, 2013, 12:03 PM
And yeah i get what youre saying, but i mean, why not just make it 1 big swing? Sacrifice the AoE for 1 big power hit and you have a nice fast PA, it would be the sneek shooter of the melee class.

Generally people use OE for 2 things, clearing a cluster of enemies, and damaging bosses. However, if you have a force in your party its doubtful you'll hit more than the first swing on a cluster unless it's huge. And if you want to just damage a boss a 1 swing PA would be far better.

And there lies the situational, if there is a force in the party I normally wouldnt even bother with Over End as Sonic Arrow or Deadly Archer usually handles that better in this type of group for the most part. But then, for example like yesterday I ran AQ with 2 hunters, a ranger, and myself a fighter. Over End shines in these groups, waves get wrecked just as fast as being with a force. And this is why I wouldn't want to change how Over End works, because if it were one swing more than likely they would have nerfed its damage & AoE due to no risk in the swing.

Coatl
Apr 17, 2013, 12:05 PM
I don't get how no zondeel all of a sudden makes over end more useful. What am I missing? ;x

sandylecuistot
Apr 17, 2013, 12:07 PM
This can be fixed by actually properly balancing gunner as a standalone class, which it needs just as badly as techer :[
Exactly !

Bellion
Apr 17, 2013, 12:13 PM
Yeah, Gunner and Techter do need more balancing. Remember when Fighter, Gunner, and Techter were released? God damn, Gunner was the biggest piece of crap I've ever used. Didn't have too much problem with Techter due to low level zan spamming, still was nowhere close to FO. Fighter was pretty workable with DS and Stances.

They even had to buff TMGs eventually because they were a bit slow then and getting hit once no matter what you got hit by caused you to lose all of your gear.

Coatl
Apr 17, 2013, 12:15 PM
Then they got elder rebellion and RA as sub and were considered the most OP class in the game. 3: Then killing bosses in seconds became less impressive.

Z-0
Apr 17, 2013, 12:17 PM
Lol I remember when that happened.

I then tried actually playing the class and hated it, because I felt sooo useless unless a boss spawned. >_>

gravityvx
Apr 17, 2013, 12:18 PM
I don't get how no zondeel all of a sudden makes over end more useful. What am I missing? ;x

I think you're underestimating how huge of an aoe range Over End has, like it really doesn't even make sense what it hits a lot of times. And the fact that using it with just attack pretty much garauntees everything it touches dies, even at 54 one Over End just attack clears level 60 waves, but I'm talking about AQs and this is where the PA shines for the most part, when there's no force. What makes it more useful is that you don't need a force carrying you to speed up the run when you have hunters & fighters using Over End on waves.

gigawuts
Apr 17, 2013, 12:18 PM
But doesn't the problem lie in Rangers and defense being almost completely irrelevant?

If Fury Stance worked like it should, you hit like a truck and and have the stamina of a toddler. Right now, you do hit like a truck... and there's no toddler anywhere. Guard reduces damage immensely/completely, the downside being that you have to face the correct direction (which is ambiguous for some attacks, but that's another issue). Or you just dodge and take no damage whatsoever. No downside attached to it, there's nothing to stop you from doing so (like immobilizes or dodge cooldowns).

There's no reason to not go full glass canon because building defensively doesn't reward you with anything right now.

As for Rangers, they should inherently have less base damage to keep them in check for being ranged. Fury Stance should make them stronger, but still weaker than melee characters due to low base damage. But then you get stuff like Homing Emission and Weak Bullet, although I'm not sure if I should bring up the latter considering it benefits the entire party...

There's a few components to this that are poorly implemented.

First, but not necessarily most obvious, the skilltree. That argument with sociable tyrannosaur over whether or not to include FSU2 in comparing HU tree multipliers? This is where that matters. Why? Hunter cannot get the full benefit of its own damage skills. The glass cannon build is SO sp intensive that you can't get JG, gear, and max damage. That means it is PURELY for subbing.

To get gear alone costs 7 SP, taking FSU2 from 10% to 3%. Getting Just Guard costs the entire skill. If you want Just Counter and Just Reversal on your HU tree you remove the entirety of Fury Crit (no big deal) and another 2% damage.

This is so poorly designed I can't even begin to describe it.

Second, you don't actually hit like a truck. Hunter, like fighter, was balanced around having these stances on. Who wasn't balanced around this stance? everything else. Ranger was deemed to be the best single-target damage possible, and the enemy debuffer. That's an imbalanced combo if you ask me, but it's what they went with. It benefits from the bulk of HU's skills, better than HU itself does, in a fashion previously only offered by fighters.

Third, the stances themselves. At face value they seem like big bonuses. They really are not, considering the classes were balanced around having them enabled. Melee is seemingly balanced around having this level of damage, meaning turning off the stances ranks you below your offensive balancing point. To tank you directly sacrifice much more than you gain.
And what is it that's offered by the stances to hunter? Let's ignore SP sinks that are beneficial to the assumed role of the stance, offense for fury and defense for guard.
Fury Stance offers, with FS, FSU1, and FSC maxed (30 sp, the sp sinks are all beneficial to offense): 1.65x striking, 1.45x ranged, and 1.20x tech damage. You take 1.05x striking damage, but also disable guard stances.
Guard Stance offers, with GS and GSU1 maxed (23 sp, 3 sp spent in something not useful for defense): .675x striking damage taken, plus 250 sdef. Okay, that's nice, but what hunter's actual weak damagetypes? Range and tech damage are untouched. That leads me to...

Fourth: Flash Guard skills. I know what you're saying. "But what about flash guards? Those work with Fury Stance enabled!" No, they don't, because they're also heavily SP intensive for not very good bonuses. Building on top and disregarding the sinks of the above guard stances setup...
It costs 35 SP (5 SP in satk up 2) to get a permanent .64x multiplier to ranged and striking damage, and .7x multiplier to tech damage. These skills are awful. They are not only horrible offerings for your real weaknesses, they are incredibly SP intensive. More than that they work like automate halfline - each SP increases the chance of them working, as opposed to their effectiveness. If you want it to be reliable you need to max it. It takes "all or nothing" to an absurd extreme. Some will say "oh, 54% of the time is good enough for me!" Well, go you, I like it when my tank is remotely reliable. On the bright side you don't need to invest in the guards to get these bonuses, which is good.

So yeah. What's funny about all of this? To come up with a good, balanced defensive build I did some 30 seconds of brainstorming. Since sdef can be patched up with guard stance's new static sdef bonus, but no such bonus exists for rdef or tdef, you'd want a class with good rdef and tdef. Only one of those can be the base stat, so one of those comes from units. What rdef or tdef class has good units that boost the other? You got it - ranger with chrome units.

Ranger benefits from hunter's offensive skills better than hunter does, and its defensive skills. This is too hilarious. I'd say gunner is better with its dodging and automate deadline, but ranger has the better multipliers so its damage isn't even hurt all that much.

edit:

Hunter and Fighter should only modify Striking damage. To hell with hybridizing. No other class does anything for anyone else, so why should melee?

I'm glad you said this, because it's irked me for a while.

RA's damage sub options: GU, HU, FI
GU's damage sub options: RA, HU, FI
FO's damage sub options: TE, FI, lolHU's 20% FSC bonus
TE's damage sub options: FO, HU, FI
HU's damage sub options: FI
FI's damage sup options: HU

Really now. Apply all of RA's and GU's multipliers to striking and allow us to store weak bullet when we switch off of rifles.

sandylecuistot
Apr 17, 2013, 12:21 PM
The first two swings cause massive stagger to normal enemies, enabling the full blow of the last swing, extremely good in AQ. But the point still stands, Over End is situational at best and leaves you completely vulnerable compared to...well any other PA on all classes in the game. Pretty much high risk high reward, unless you do it at the right time, more times than not you will get your ass kicked while swinging it.

After trying it several times in several places/situations I can say it gives more reward that it has risks...

But, all these over-used skills have big issues. Deadly Archer, Over End, Elder Rebellion, and so on...

Gardios
Apr 17, 2013, 12:29 PM
Goodness gracious giga, why do you write so much when we're basically agreeing. :wacko:
Good post still.

gravityvx
Apr 17, 2013, 12:30 PM
After trying it several times in several places/situations I can say it gives more reward that it has risks...

But, all these over-used skills have big issues. Deadly Archer, Over End, Elder Rebellion, and so on...

The difference between all these PAs you've named though is that they can be used at any time and you can technically come out completely safe using them because you still have the ability to dodge. You can't with Over End, you actually have to make an opprotunity to use it, especially on bosses.

The risk comes from the fact that you're stuck using the skill no matter what after pressing it, having to sit through that long animation in its entirety. Unless I missed some trick where you can cancel out of it. But yeah, Over End used correctly should offer high reward, but that doesn't mean it's a low risk skill.

Z-0
Apr 17, 2013, 12:31 PM
Can only cancel out of Over End after the second attack (with a Guard), no other time.

Zyrusticae
Apr 17, 2013, 12:31 PM
I'm glad you said this, because it's irked me for a while.

RA's damage sub options: GU, HU, FI
GU's damage sub options: RA, HU, FI
FO's damage sub options: TE, FI, lolHU's 20% FSC bonus
TE's damage sub options: FO, HU, FI
HU's damage sub options: FI
FI's damage sup options: HU

Really now. Apply all of RA's and GU's multipliers to striking and allow us to store weak bullet when we switch off of rifles.
Yeah, this is one of the worst parts of the whole system. I actually forgot JAB adds to ranged damage as well because NOTHING ELSE DOES. Force has Tech JAA and CA, which obviously has Tech RIGHT IN THE NAME. Zero Range Advance, Standing Snipe, and Weak Hit Advance are all shooting attacks only. Why the hell is JAB so special that it has to add to ranged attacks as well? Boggles my mind. Especially since, y'know, the ONLY ranged weapon hunters get is the gunslash in the first place...

If anything, all of those percentage damage bonuses should apply to all damage, then you would actually have reason to subclass everything instead of very specific synergistic combinations. Stuff like Charge Advance would only apply to certain PAs anyway (gunner has only one PA that qualifies, ranger has nothing), it's not like they'd suddenly become omgsobrokenlol just because hunters can sub force without feeling gimped on melee damage.
(also lol @ techer, it literally has nothing outside of support techs)

Reia
Apr 17, 2013, 12:32 PM
Fact of Hunters cant fully utilize their SPs


And this is also the fact why many Fighter mainers just took chance of the Skill Tree Free reset to reset hunter and don't get gears, JR and JG, devoting only for full damage passives, playing Fighter main and only using Lambda Aristin for spamming Sonic Arrows and Over End.

gigawuts
Apr 17, 2013, 12:32 PM
OE is good because it multitasks to the goddamn extreme. PA's should largely be balanced by their abilities, and preferably not be nerfed overly hard. That said, OE needs a nerf.

OE offers...
Good:
1. Immediate hyper armor on activation
2. Good AOE
3. Good flinch timing
4. Good burst damage
5. Good DPS
6. Has a long animation (good in some circumstances, like during vacuum grabs)
7. Can be guard canceled
8. Does not require the gear skill at all to deal its strongest hit
9. Increased AOE and initial strike damage with gear
Bad:
1. Costs 40 PP
2. Has a long animation
3. Cannot be immediately guard canceled

Three things on that list would make it a good PA. All of that together? That's insane. Some of that needs to be moved to other PA's, badly.

PA's should be balanced by the multitude of their utility offerings. "Utility offerings" refers to something like immediate hyper armor, mobility for chasing enemies, flinch timing, DPS, burst damage, short or long animations (depending on hyper armor), grab/lift/stun, etc.etc. Raw damage should gain only marginal amounts when sacrificing these utility abilities. A PA that does multiple things well should not be too much weaker than a raw DPS move, like deadly archer.

Why do I have this stance? Because with our palette selection restricted to 6 weapon slots, plus melee attacks having that annoying combo restriction, PA's should have overlap in what they can do so you can have a PA that's mobile with AOE, or a PA that's mobile with hyper armor, or a PA with hyper armor and AOE but roots you, or any other combination of utility abilities depending on what's more fitting to either the area or your playstyle without directly sacrificing effectiveness because you couldn't fit such-and-such on your palette.

edit:

Goones gracious giga, why do you write so much when we're basically agreeing. :wacko:
Good post still.

If I have one great, glaring, and blatant weakness, it is that I am a wordy person :]

Shadowth117
Apr 17, 2013, 12:33 PM
I'm glad you said this, because it's irked me for a while.

RA's damage sub options: GU, HU, FI
GU's damage sub options: RA, HU, FI
FO's damage sub options: TE, FI, lolHU's 20% FSC bonus
TE's damage sub options: FO, HU, FI
HU's damage sub options: FI
FI's damage sup options: HU

Really now. Apply all of RA's and GU's multipliers to striking and allow us to store weak bullet when we switch off of rifles.

Isn't Te somewhat applicable as a Fi sub? And Fo also works as a sub to make a somewhat gimped version of FoFi (though not to the extent that using techs with a subbed Fo on classes that aren't Te or Fi is gimped). I mean granted I wouldn't ever do TeFi because of how much damage is reduced from even thinking of that, but I've seen a number of people use it anyway. It may not be the best damage, but if people are going to argue talises have their uses on Fo (which I personally disagree with) than I think its only fair that FiTe is acknowledged at least.

It also somewhat irks me in this game that force based classes and range based ones are entirely incompatible at the moment as far as the sub classing system goes.

gigawuts
Apr 17, 2013, 12:35 PM
Isn't Te somewhat applicable as a Fi sub? And Fo also works as a sub to make a somewhat gimped version of FoFi (though not to the extent that using techs with a subbed Fo on classes that aren't Te or Fi is gimped). I mean granted I wouldn't ever do TeFi because of how much damage is reduced from even thinking of that, but I've seen a number of people use it anyway. It may not be the best damage, but if people are going to argue talises have their uses on Fo (which I personally disagree with) than I think its only fair that FiTe is acknowledged at least.

It also somewhat irks me in this game that force based classes and range based ones are entirely incompatible at the moment as far as the sub classing system goes.

I specified damage sub. TE doesn't offer outright damage, just techs. Techs let you relocate some enemies, sure, which can indirectly mean more damage, but it is not actual raw damage.

Element weak hit advance is absurdly, depressingly, hilariously weak on physical (striking & ranged) weapons.

edit: Also, as far as I've dabbled in PS, ranged and techs are seemingly meant to be mutually opposing approaches to specialist damage and ranged damage. This was better demonstrated in PSO1 with its more attentive focus on the specific classes (or, well, race/gender/classes, but in all realism race/genders were just subclasses) and the weapons they could use. When they added RAmarls it became pretty clear how crazy powerful a ranged/tech combo could be, but I'm not sure if they got quite as out of hand in PSU and beyond.

gravityvx
Apr 17, 2013, 12:36 PM
Can only cancel out of Over End after the second attack (with a Guard), no other time.

I actually did not know this, thanks for the info. :)

Gardios
Apr 17, 2013, 12:37 PM
I just remembered. Regarding the lack of skill points, that already happened back in CBT... which is just more proof that SEGA has no idea what it's doing with the skill trees (as if we don't have enough proof already).

Skyly HUmar
Apr 17, 2013, 12:40 PM
Isn't Te somewhat applicable as a Fi sub? And Fo also works as a sub to make a somewhat gimped version of FoFi (though not to the extent that using techs with a subbed Fo on classes that aren't Te or Fi is gimped). I mean granted I wouldn't ever do TeFi because of how much damage is reduced from even thinking of that, but I've seen a number of people use it anyway. It may not be the best damage, but if people are going to argue talises have their uses on Fo (which I personally disagree with) than I think its only fair that FiTe is acknowledged at least.

It also somewhat irks me in this game that force based classes and range based ones are entirely incompatible at the moment as far as the sub classing system goes.

Thats the point though, fi/te wont get shit other than support and fi/fo is just gimped on both sides of it's PA damage. What giga listed were "good" and "effective" and "worthwhile" and ill even throw in "not pointless" class combos, sure a self buffing fi is ok but compare it to anything on that list and its just all arround shit.

ShinMaruku
Apr 17, 2013, 12:40 PM
You needed proof? Sega's history proves that. Perhaps in 2 revisions we'll get something.

Gardios
Apr 17, 2013, 12:42 PM
In my defense, PSO2 is my first PS... and they might've learnt from the past!

Yeah, no, apparently.

sandylecuistot
Apr 17, 2013, 12:42 PM
PA's should be balanced by the multitude of their utility offerings.

Again : Exactly.
Why would there be 8 PA if 1-3 are far better than the others for TOO many reasons ?

When I think about Elder Rebellion it seems to me that they did not want to work on the Gunner class so that it could be a close range effective gun-using class.
They just gave it a strong ranged PA > Done.

What kind of work is that ?
A class have balance issue and instead of working on the PA % and/or class skills they throw out one or two PA to say :
"Hey look, the class is strong now that it can use THIS PA !!"

Ridiculous...
I'm sure they absolutely don't know what they do, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and that's all.
Their choices are Rng made too I guess.

ShinMaruku
Apr 17, 2013, 12:44 PM
In my defense, PSO2 is my first PS... and they might've learnt from the past!

Yeah, no, apparently.

I been here from the beginning and past version 2 I given up hope for the game could be. Hold it at what it is.

Skyly HUmar
Apr 17, 2013, 12:47 PM
Ridiculous...
I'm sure they absolutely don't know what they do, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and that's all.
Their choices are Rng made too I guess.

lol i see that happening

90%-Fix game mechanics

20%-Add more outfits

10%-Lolify the game even more

15%-Be lazy and hope 1 little change fixes the game

Success!
20%-Add more outfits

10%-Lolify the game even more

15%-Be lazy and hope 1 little change fixes the game

FAILURE!
90%-Fix game mechanics

Hmmm couldnt be helped.

gigawuts
Apr 17, 2013, 12:48 PM
lol i see that happening

90%-Fix game mechanics

20%-Add more outfits

10%-Lolify the game even more

15%-Be lazy and hope 1 little change fixes the game

Success!
20%-Add more outfits

10%-Lolify the game even more

15%-Be lazy and hope 1 little change fixes the game

FAILURE!
90%-Fix game mechanics

Hmmm couldnt be helped.

I fucking lol'd, I can see this being exactly how meetings go. "Priorities: Let's put this up to dudu and see what he says we should do!"
Yeah, this is one of the worst parts of the whole system. I actually forgot JAB adds to ranged damage as well because NOTHING ELSE DOES. Force has Tech JAA and CA, which obviously has Tech RIGHT IN THE NAME. Zero Range Advance, Standing Snipe, and Weak Hit Advance are all shooting attacks only. Why the hell is JAB so special that it has to add to ranged attacks as well? Boggles my mind. Especially since, y'know, the ONLY ranged weapon hunters get is the gunslash in the first place...

If anything, all of those percentage damage bonuses should apply to all damage, then you would actually have reason to subclass everything instead of very specific synergistic combinations. Stuff like Charge Advance would only apply to certain PAs anyway (gunner has only one PA that qualifies, ranger has nothing), it's not like they'd suddenly become omgsobrokenlol just because hunters can sub force without feeling gimped on melee damage.
(also lol @ techer, it literally has nothing outside of support techs)

While on principle I'm against this, I seriously cannot think of any possible reason to not do this.

HU/FO will not be OP because nova strike does 21% extra damage...since you lose brave stance

The only crazy combo would be, yep, fo/ra and fo/hu.

Kilich
Apr 17, 2013, 12:49 PM
Yeah. I don't know what to expect from Ep2, but I hope it wont be more band aids. Not sure if I should, hope is a road to disappointment.