PDA

View Full Version : Someones needs to submit a japanese ticket about affixes



Pages : [1] 2

Kraiseson
Apr 11, 2013, 07:42 PM
I get i get. Everyone says the percentages lie, blah blah. We've all heard it.
But thats just not right.

If you're trying to affix something that has 70% chance, you should be successful 7 out of 10 times.
Straight up. I cant even count how many times I've had over 50% and failed still..
I know everyone knows about this, but someone should seriously write up a ticket to these guys and let em know. This shit just aint right.
I'm tired of spending millions and not getting my affixes.
Yes I know about the 100% tricks people use to do 3 affixes, but seriously with 70-80% I should be successful more often than im failing..

Someone needs to let them know.

Gardios
Apr 11, 2013, 07:54 PM
That's because you are unworthy before the mighty RNGod, is all.

Considering that many JP players complained about Dudu in the past, it's most likely just confirmation bias.

TaigaUC
Apr 11, 2013, 07:59 PM
Yeah, when I'm doing the 50-60% and 70-80% it often fails for at least 1-2 million worth of attempts and fodder. Everytime I try to affix, it feels like I drain the marketplace of cheap fodder.

The worst thing is it usually ends up taking 1-2 hours of constant attempts to get the setup I want. Affixing should not take 1-2 million + 1-2 hours. It's not fun or rewarding, it's just punishment.

Limbo_lag
Apr 11, 2013, 08:05 PM
Keep in mind that a 70/70 is in fact a 49% chance for both to work. If my math is right, you'll have a 70% chance that only one will affix, but a 49% chance that both will work. Same goes for 80/80, being only a 64% chance both will work. I've personally had it go both ways, with low %'s working and high %'s failing several times in a row in the past.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 08:17 PM
I failed 8 protected 9-10 grinds on my steam knuckles in the last 24 hours, and this is after another 7-8 two weeks ago - one of them with a 20% booster :wacko:

Fuck the RNG :wacko:

Fuck it hard and replace it with something remotely fucking consistent :wacko:

BarbblerElf
Apr 11, 2013, 08:20 PM
Think of strong positive feelings to increase the chances of RNG being in your favor :o

MoonAtomizer
Apr 11, 2013, 08:22 PM
But RNG is the lifeblood of the game. How else will PSO2 dripfeed its players?

On a more serious note: For a second, I thought the topic was going to address that affixing has hit a wall. Notice everyone has the same derpy Soul+30ATK, with maybe a HP/PP Boost, Status Ailment III, and/or Ability III tacked on if they're rich? These affixes have existed even just a few months in from the game's release, the fact that they're still the standard now is quite sad.

Affixing is a good concept that's now dumb just because of how horribly it scales. Sorry, but even if later Souls change the success rate for tier IV and V's to reach even remotely close to guarantee-levels, why anyone would spend exponentially more for +5 (tier IV) or +10 (tier V) in any stat is freaking beyond me.

So then the natural progression of affixing is 5+ slots. But getting 5 slots through expansion is lol, left alone transferring a desired Soul. So yea, if you want more than 4 slots, better pray to Dudu/Sakai that your weapon drops with 5+ slots.
The obvious solution to this case is releasing AC items that dramatically boost slot expansion attempts. Buuut, I doubt SEGA has the competence to consider that.

~Aya~
Apr 11, 2013, 08:28 PM
Ill go ahead and say that I failed 80%s and above and then turned around and got tech iv and soul etc with 14% and no boosters. Eff logic.

Gardios
Apr 11, 2013, 08:31 PM
But RNG is the lifeblood of the game. How else will PSO2 dripfeed its players?

On a more serious note: affixing is a good concept that's now dumb just because of how horribly it scales. Sorry, but even if later Souls change the success rate for tier IV and V's to reach even remotely close to guarantee-levels, why would anyone spend exponentially more for +5 (tier IV) or +10 (tier V) in any stat is freaking beyond me.

If someone's into extreme min/maxing and got the money to do that, I'm not gonna disrespect that.

I'm actually happy that 5+ affixes are difficult because that makes people think (more or less, I guess) about what affixes they want to get instead of lol everything.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 08:46 PM
What moon is saying is that the affix rate for Stat IV is abysmal (20% base to create, not sure what to transfer) but the difference in power is only 5 compared to stat III(30 vs 35). The risk to reward ratio is awful when in fact with odds being that low it should be more like 50 and 70 for IV and V to justify the creation/transfer rates and entice people to try for it.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 08:49 PM
What moon is saying is that the affix rate for Stat IV is abysmal (20% base to create, not sure what to transfer) but the difference in power is only 5 compared to stat III(30 vs 35). The risk to reward ratio is awful when in fact with odds being that low it should be more like 50 and 70 for IV and V to justify the creation/transfer rates and entice people to try for it.

Yeah.

It'd be one thing if failure knocked you down a level, so failing stat IV put you down to stat III, but...that's not how it works.

The system is really, really badly designed. They could do a lot better and players would wind up using it more to apply it to all of their stuff, because it would actually work. None of that failing both slots on 80/80...twice. That's just awful. I know a guy who failed 3 90's in a row. Wtf is that?

UnLucky
Apr 11, 2013, 08:59 PM
I've failed 75/75 and 70/70/70 too many times

Like down to 0 slots in one go

sure I'll sometimes get a 30/65 to both stick, but it doesn't matter because I'm back to zero next time I try anything

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 09:05 PM
well...technically a 70/70/70's most likely result is you only keep 1...then again its least likely result is that you lose all 3 >_>

Coatl
Apr 11, 2013, 09:19 PM
I failed 8 protected 9-10 grinds on my steam knuckles in the last 24 hours, and this is after another 7-8 two weeks ago - one of them with a 20% booster :wacko:



10% grind boosters and -1 protects are fine, too.

Syklo
Apr 11, 2013, 09:23 PM
I'm fine with affixing / boosting with mutations and souls (lol) (I don't mind the default/ base rates, for the most part).

My main gripe is how the Extra Slot penalty scales - 60% of all default rates when expanding to 4 slots with dual feeders!? (Compared to the usual 5% decay with dual feeds)
Makes me think a 7→8 slot will be a penalty of 25% of default rates.
Like, what???
I know expanding to that extent should be really hard, but with that kind of penalty you might as well use affixes that have a success rate <40%, use an additive boost item and not miss out on much.
now if the extra-slot penalty is just a flat 80% of default rates.....maybe that's too high?
i dunno, but the scaling right now is, IMO, ridiculous.

P.S. When I say default rate, I mean success rate without extra slot, not the success rate excluding boosts from mutation/souls.

supersonix9
Apr 11, 2013, 09:25 PM
oh look more complaints about rng

dr apocalipsis
Apr 11, 2013, 09:26 PM
Main problem I find, is that current mainstream build of Soul+III is outdated with new weapons. You can have that at lvl 30, where 180 attack is a huge difference. But now we are over level 55, with weapons over 800 attack, and afixes still the same as open beta. So you still pay random high quantities, for a less decisive gear.

They should move this to percents to keep the pace, and implement a progress system like MB. Minimizing risks everytime you fail an attemp. I wasted over 2M only to set 2 fodder slots into my Ruins Charm, fucking my game for over a week. Right now you can waste several millions into a wep and have a +2 with 0 slots, and that isn't fair.

In the other way, both stamina boost and spirita boost remains good because PP bar stills 100, and with stamina boost, higher def stats increase the value of those extra hit points. Difference between survive or die those extra HP give aside.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 09:44 PM
I've been puzzling about the affixes and end game as well. 180-240 in an attack stat is still quite a bit...over 15% in many cases and over 10% for everyone else.

In about 2 months though...I'm giving it 2 months:

We're going to drop below the 10% mark and I think we'll be seeing new souls to offset this. (probably from new bosses and bosses over lvl 60)

Don't forget that at lvl 55+ affixes have a good chance of being rank III on drop. If they fix IV and V those combined with new souls should handle it for another year.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 10:14 PM
oh look more complaints about rng

We don't make posts like that when you post yet another bland pic of your attempt at a boy toy character in the different screenshot threads, wearing the same outfit with whatever new haircut is in the scratch this month.

Don't make posts like that when people make legitimate complaints about a very obviously lying RNG.

zegun~kun
Apr 11, 2013, 10:14 PM
Ill go ahead and say that I failed 80%s and above and then turned around and got tech iv and soul etc with 14% and no boosters. Eff logic.

+1
master Dudu is the god of trolling..
if i ever succeeded in affixing things below 60%, i wont affix more things for a couple of days as it usually ends up with a grand trolling that causes my meseta stack turns to ashes :grin:

Zipzo
Apr 11, 2013, 10:35 PM
I will never understand people who believe a 70% *chance* is analogical with a definitive probability.

You could have an 80% chance of succeeding and fail 20 times.

Is it likely you'd fail twenty times? No. It CAN happen. Random is always random. Your chances don't get better each time you try.

Syklo
Apr 11, 2013, 10:42 PM
It's more on the lines of:

"WHAT!? I FAILED 2 80%'S IN A ROW?
I COULD'VE JUST ADDED POWER IV AND TECH IV AND SUCCEEDED!"
Or at least that's what immediately pops in my mind when that happens.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 10:43 PM
I will never understand people who believe a 70% *chance* is analogical with a definitive probability.

You could have an 80% chance of succeeding and fail 20 times.

Is it likely you'd fail twenty times? No. It CAN happen. Random is always random. Your chances don't get better each time you try.

I see this statement made a lot, and it's partially valid, but it misses the point. The complaint is not that success did not occur. The complaint is that the system is designed such that failure is even possible after that many attempts. Meaning, the complaint is not about randomness, but about the system relying 100% on randomness, and not accounting for large streaks. They could limit a streak's length with a simple and common check on the number of consecutive successes or failures and forcing an appropriate result.

See: Matter board. Even the unluckiest now get their MB items, guaranteed, after a set number of failures. That system needs to exist for grinding (spend X grinders or protects, guaranteed success), and affixing is a bit more complex but something could be designed with relative ease.

You can try to argue the matter board is more important than grinding, or something like that, but at the end of the day a frustrating failure streak is frustrating no matter what it is the player has been trying to do. If you don't want success streaks affected, then just don't restrict success streaks. The final result will only be marginally impacted to generate a tiny amount of excess.

Kondibon
Apr 11, 2013, 10:49 PM
They could limit a streak's length with a simple and common check on the number of consecutive successes or failures and forcing an appropriate result.

This is something I think they should do, if not that then getting rid of the random aspect entirely.

Alisha
Apr 11, 2013, 10:51 PM
its because a computer can never be truely random and is thus prone to streaks.

gigawuts
Apr 11, 2013, 10:53 PM
No, even truly random systems will have streaks. It's the nature of random.

That said, well programmed RNG's will have fewer and shorter streaks than badly programmed RNG's. Badly programmed RNG's can be corrected with checks and forced results, as I said. The average will go unchanged if you correct successes AND failures, but nobody really wants their highs cut short so I'd sooner recommend correcting only failure streaks. The average will only be moderately impacted, but the individual player experiences will improve considerably for never having absurd and unpreventable streaks of failures (or, well, they COULD be prevented...by Sega).

DS23
Apr 11, 2013, 10:57 PM
If it's not 100% it's a coin toss really.

MoonAtomizer
Apr 11, 2013, 11:03 PM
On a related note, I also like the fact that for grinding, in comparison between person A who gets +1 and person B who gets -1, person B ends up paying triple or more to catch up to person A.

Yep. Triple. And let's not forget -2s and -3s.

UnLucky
Apr 11, 2013, 11:12 PM
Yeah I'm not really complaining about "man, another 99% chance failed? that's not how probability works!"

But simply the fact that it REQUIRES back to back multiple 30-60%s at a time and in a row just to get ONE chance to put what you REALLY want on ONE piece of gear which ends up being a minor boost where failure can bring you back to the very beginning is just too much.

I've been mostly content with just Soul+Stat2 because it's like 100 times more likely to land than Soul+Stat3+Other, and you get at least half of the bonus. Anything more than 4 slots is just insanity. Like more than the usual Japanese kind of insanity.

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 11:45 PM
I failed 8 protected 9-10 grinds on my steam knuckles in the last 24 hours, and this is after another 7-8 two weeks ago - one of them with a 20% booster :wacko:

Fuck the RNG :wacko:

Fuck it hard and replace it with something remotely fucking consistent :wacko:
I had this same issue trying to grind my fucking partizan.

Some 600 grinders and an untold number of +10% grind boosts/+1 grind protects later, I finally got it.

Goddamn, man. They should just put in something that lets you advance after spending a certain amount of grinders/meseta or getting a certain number of fails, because this shit is whack. Pseudo-random would be far more enjoyable than this bullshit.

Also, grind success chance should NEVER, EVER go below 50%! What the fuck, man?!

Edit: You know what? Fuck the grind and affix system. Fuck it in the ass.

Replace it with something where, instead of a chance to fail, you have a chance to get a critical success instead! Instead of +10% chance to NOT FAIL, you get a +10% chance to get an extra grind level or an affix improves or something! That would feel FUCKTONS better than the bullshit negative reinforcement gambling system we have now. Players who want to gamble on the RNG to get ridiculously powerful affixes can still do so, just the rest of us trying to get a baseline of equipment would no longer feel obligated to say "FUCK YOU, SEGA" so many goddamn days of the week.

You could even multiply the amount of grinders and meseta required per grind. I don't give a shit! FAILURE IS BULLSHIT!

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 11:51 PM
I honestly think they fucked with the grinding when they introduced that 0-7 booster.

The other day I was grinding a Plosion and it failed trying to go from 5-6 about 10 times in a row then wouldn't go past 3. I used to be able to get to 8 with little issue then just grind protect -(+...wtf)1 and 5% to victory. I could fail sure bet getting back to 8 was not a 200 grinder endeavor. now it's almost a requirement with my latest attempts, to the point that I don't want to grind anymore.

Zenobia
Apr 11, 2013, 11:52 PM
Im to loose right now to be getting fucked again by RNG but then again I have no choice anyway it fucks me by force so I just say fuck it and take it willingly~:wacko:!

Yeeeepppp gonna be long timeeee!

Zyrusticae
Apr 11, 2013, 11:55 PM
I honestly think they fucked with the grinding when they introduced that 0-7 booster.

The other day I was grinding a Plosion and it failed trying to go from 5-6 about 10 times in a row then wouldn't go past 3. I used to be able to get to 8 with little issue then just grind protect -(+...wtf)1 and 5% to victory. I could fail sure bet getting back to 8 was not a 200 grinder endeavor. now it's almost a requirement with my latest attempts, to the point that I don't want to grind anymore.
Yeah, this is pretty much my experience as well. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually ninja-nerfed success rates to death so that merely getting to the coveted +8 point is now an infinitesimally tiny chance.

Pretty stupid considering it just results in increased frustration all around.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 11, 2013, 11:56 PM
Im to loose right now to be getting fucked again by RNG but then again I have no choice anyway it fucks me by force so I just say fuck it and take it willingly~:wacko:!

Yeeeepppp gonna be long timeeee!

...Why's I gotta work for it then, Zen? Dudu just gets in there!

UnLucky
Apr 11, 2013, 11:58 PM
It's (+1) now because it used to be -(-1) and some people don't understand how to maths.

"Why would I want a chance to lose 4 grinds Sega?"

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 12:02 AM
...Why's I gotta work for it then, Zen? Dudu just gets in there!

Gotta get those lucky grinds in somehow lol.

No but srsly though I said the same thing once the +7 grind tickets came out I was under the impression they rigged dudu even moar....but srsly though was it 15-18 ac scratch items for ONE FUCKING +7 grind ticket I forgot?

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 12:04 AM
Oh I got it, just...3-1=2 Why was this hard?

UnLucky
Apr 12, 2013, 12:05 AM
20 IIRC

is ->7 even guaranteed or "Safe" or what

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 12:05 AM
Gotta get those lucky grinds in somehow lol.

No but srsly though I said the same thing once the +7 grind tickets came out I was under the impression they rigged dudu even moar....but srsly though was it 15-18 ac scratch items for ONE FUCKING +7 grind ticket I forgot?

20, my dear

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 12:07 AM
20, my dear

SHIT SOUNDS LIKE THE FO TREE WITH DEM SKILLS AT DEH BOTTOM IN DEH ICE TREED<!

Heretics.......

Saotome Kaneda
Apr 12, 2013, 12:08 AM
20 IIRC

is ->7 even guaranteed or "Safe" or what

guaranteed

Bellion
Apr 12, 2013, 12:10 AM
The +7 is guaranteed at +0 at least. Don't know if that changes when trying it at +6->+7, though. >_>

UnLucky
Apr 12, 2013, 12:14 AM
That would be so stupid if it wasn't, and plain retarded if you could use it at +8 or 9 and fail to go ->7 and lose 3 grinds.

I bet that's exactly how it works.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 12:20 AM
It literally just sets your weapon's grind at 7. I don't think you can even use it if your grind is 7 or higher

Agitated_AT
Apr 12, 2013, 01:41 AM
I honestly think they fucked with the grinding when they introduced that 0-7 booster.

The other day I was grinding a Plosion and it failed trying to go from 5-6 about 10 times in a row then wouldn't go past 3. I used to be able to get to 8 with little issue then just grind protect -(+...wtf)1 and 5% to victory. I could fail sure bet getting back to 8 was not a 200 grinder endeavor. now it's almost a requirement with my latest attempts, to the point that I don't want to grind anymore.

so dont grind then. you dont really need it to begin with unless u wanna make the game boringly easy. im underpowered as fuck and prolly having more fun than most of you here when i play, with my average weps

Limbo_lag
Apr 12, 2013, 01:55 AM
Y'know? disregard what I said earlier. Just wasted 1 mil trying to 2 slot a 7* weapon. Couldn't even get it past +5 either. Screw the rng.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 01:56 AM
so dont grind then. you dont really need it to begin with unless u wanna make the game boringly easy. im underpowered as fuck and prolly having more fun than most of you here when i play, with my average weps

"Don't like walking on glass? Just cut off your feet! Sweeping the floor is for morons."


I'm really sick of your attitude.

This has nothing to do with your warped sense of what's fun.

I'm making an observation about a system and saying it's more messed up than it was before. Don't throw your personal values at me and make backhanded patronizing comments about mine.

Play the game how you want but don't come in here and tell people to shut-up and ignore part of the system and play your way rather than discuss what they think is wrong.

Omega-z
Apr 12, 2013, 01:57 AM
Affixing is crap unless it's 100%. You have three different %'s working against you Chance, Level, Slot, roll'd together in the RGN with a Price tag. Yeah, a 0.01%(just 2 items) ~ 3.19%(3 items with 30%) chance for 8 ("IF" you can ever get there) it's not fun or rewarding, not even 0-1 at time's. the system is a "JOKE" PSO/PSU was at least more rewarding. Oh, That's right SEGAC can't do math on anything.

But doesn't mean I won't try "IF" I get the chance.

Shinamori
Apr 12, 2013, 02:28 AM
I grinded my Lambda Artisin to 10 from 7-10 with no fails once. I was like O_O, wow.
I affixed a Power II 34% (24%+10%) to my Red Sword and got it. I was totally expecting fail. One of my team mates asked me "what religion o you believe in?" "Because you need to pray" lol

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 02:31 AM
yeah I once got a 10* from 0-10 with 1 fail. it happens. just recently the odds have seemed much lower.

EvilMag
Apr 12, 2013, 02:39 AM
My advice I will give you if you have trouble with grinding is switch blocks. It worked for me. I was grinding my Lambda Hyperion and I could not get it past +3. (wasted about 70 grinders trying to) So I switched blocks and got from +3 to +10 without any fails. .-.

This trick has also worked for a couple friends of mine.

Mike
Apr 12, 2013, 02:45 AM
20, my dear
4000 yen if you were to buy it yourself then. Anyone remember how much it cost to get a weapon to +7 in PSU's cash shop?

EDIT: Looks like 720 GC for +8 in PSU. Huh.

jooozek
Apr 12, 2013, 02:51 AM
My advice I will give you if you have trouble with grinding is switch blocks. It worked for me. I was grinding my Lambda Hyperion and I could not get it past +3. (wasted about 70 grinders trying to) So I switched blocks and got from +3 to +10 without any fails. .-.

This trick has also worked for a couple friends of mine.

kinda reminds me of this shit

http://forum.cherrycredits.com/topic/140222-rng-its-importance-and-its-connection/

long story short; change the seed by changing instance

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 03:00 AM
I thinK the RNG is good. There doesn't *need* to be a system that rewards you for you continuously repetitive effort if you keep trying it anyway.

You can argue all day that their *should* be, but that'd just be you. I think having some random is fine. I think grinding (although agitating at its worst) is fine. I think rare drops being stupidly rare is fine. I like that some of the means to getting PERFECT EVERYTHING are barred by a few chance gaps that could keep you from maxing out either immediately or for a long time.

Call me masochistic or argue with me about how it's bad game design all you want...I think the system does what it's supposed to.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 03:50 AM
lol except all it means is you spend enough meseta or AC and it all goes away.

RNG being this bad results in a very pay to win scenario

MetalDude
Apr 12, 2013, 03:56 AM
Seriously Zipzo, I'm convinced your existence is purely for the purpose of being contrary. Not a single person here (maybe that guy whoever decides to be him) would agree with you at all.


I think the system does what it's supposed to.
By that you mean convince people to spend money on a gamble, then yes, this game does an excellent job at it. There's absolutely nothing enjoyable or good about it though.

Zaven
Apr 12, 2013, 04:00 AM
There's absolutely nothing enjoyable or good about it though.

Woh i completly disagree. Grinding IS boring. Gambling isn't.

Edit : Okay we agree then. About it taking a too important place in the game, that's something else i can't agree or disagree with, i don't have a clear opinion about it. But see, you can understand that point of view. There isn't "no one" who would agree with it because a lot of people think like that and we'v seen some of them express it. I think Zipzo had a point, maybe not a strong one but one we should meditate one. Because from what I read, this is going into a "let's do this system" conversation instead and there are people who like the systeme being random and gambling. That being shocking to you, is just as shocking as saying "we should get a 100% success when we try a lot" is to me. It's just different way of seeing it and i don't like how people talk like there was only one way to enjoy it. This is becoming more and more present.

Edit : yeah well saying that make me realise this topic is good because it shows that NO, not everybody is unhappy, and they need to be able to say it (in a friendly way, of course, always) without getting shut up. And i wish people meditate on that a bit more before they express their unhappiness. When i see words like bullshit, fuck damn system, shit gambling, and things like that, doesn't make me feel like i can express my opinon yaknow. Especially one that is different and would support a shit bullshit fuck damn gambling system (not saying THIS ONE is perfect).

Edit : By the way, i wonder. Is this particular feeling shared with the japanese community or not? What do japanese players think about that and what did they tell SOJ, that they were happy with it or not?

MetalDude
Apr 12, 2013, 04:02 AM
Gambling has an addictive hook to it so I suppose you could argue that it's enjoyable. I'd simply state that its place in one of the game's major facets of progression is a hideous idea, but that's not exactly a new revelation either.

Shinmarizu
Apr 12, 2013, 07:15 AM
Sega is breeding addicts, and making more money off them in the process.

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 07:38 AM
lol except all it means is you spend enough meseta or AC and it all goes away.

RNG being this bad results in a very pay to win scenario

Except I'm a premium and I get AC frequently yet I still fail grinds (sometimes catastrophically) all the time. I don't understand the point you're trying to make? Buying AC is meant to make things more convenient and in some cases quicker. It just doesn't always guarantee what you're looking for. Shouldn't you all be bitching about the scratch too if that sort of thing bothers you so much?

@Metaldude

I'm not trying to be contrary just because I don't agree with you. I'm now going to invoke the Mcdonalds analogy...a lot of people like Mcdonalds, I don't so I don't eat it. Does that make me contrary? No...it means I don't like McDonald's...this isn't difficult to understand.

Why is the way things work unreasonable the way it is? If I have no complaints there's plenty of people out there who probably feel alike. These people are probably not posting on forums like i am as much as people who are so genuinely unhappy with the game they play. Everyone has this huge unexplainable aversion to any concept or notion towards paying money for PSO2 or not being able to get everything they want without an exact play by play book laying out their battle plan. Some stuff is just random, which leaves a little to "luck" to surprise you when things go your way.

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 08:21 AM
This system convinces people that grinding is futile and the series is a shell of its former self.

And yes, Zipzo considers himself an up and coming contrarian.

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 08:39 AM
This system convinces people that grinding is futile and the series is a shell of its former self.

And yes, Zipzo considers himself an up and coming contrarian.

And yet people still continue to grind and get +10...or in some cases aren't getting one but are still doing it.

Your only claim to the systems failure is that it hurts you so much that it actually convinces you it's worth complaining over the Internet about.

I don't think it's futile because at +10 I see a sizable increase in stats compared to the 100% no risk +1.

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 09:01 AM
Woh i completly disagree. Grinding IS boring. Gambling isn't.

Edit : Okay we agree then. About it taking a too important place in the game, that's something else i can't agree or disagree with, i don't have a clear opinion about it. But see, you can understand that point of view. There isn't "no one" who would agree with it because a lot of people think like that and we'v seen some of them express it. I think Zipzo had a point, maybe not a strong one but one we should meditate one. Because from what I read, this is going into a "let's do this system" conversation instead and there are people who like the systeme being random and gambling. That being shocking to you, is just as shocking as saying "we should get a 100% success when we try a lot" is to me. It's just different way of seeing it and i don't like how people talk like there was only one way to enjoy it. This is becoming more and more present.

Edit : yeah well saying that make me realise this topic is good because it shows that NO, not everybody is unhappy, and they need to be able to say it (in a friendly way, of course, always) without getting shut up. And i wish people meditate on that a bit more before they express their unhappiness. When i see words like bullshit, fuck damn system, shit gambling, and things like that, doesn't make me feel like i can express my opinon yaknow. Especially one that is different and would support a shit bullshit fuck damn gambling system (not saying THIS ONE is perfect).

Edit : By the way, i wonder. Is this particular feeling shared with the japanese community or not? What do japanese players think about that and what did they tell SOJ, that they were happy with it or not?


No no im pretty sure we all have meditated on this is just THAT frustrating that we fail this much just like Gigawuts already explained which is pretty much how it is if none of us haven't meditated on it as you say we wouldn't be giving our observation in the first place so saying some of us should meditate on it it pretty farfetched as is metaldude had every to his comment just as much as the next person as do we all.

Agitated_AT
Apr 12, 2013, 09:15 AM
"Don't like walking on glass? Just cut off your feet! Sweeping the floor is for morons."


I'm really sick of your attitude.

This has nothing to do with your warped sense of what's fun.

I'm making an observation about a system and saying it's more messed up than it was before. Don't throw your personal values at me and make backhanded patronizing comments about mine.

Play the game how you want but don't come in here and tell people to shut-up and ignore part of the system and play your way rather than discuss what they think is wrong.
I meant that when you actually stop being all drawn into this thought that grinding is any form of progression(this is to you all), you kind of don't miss anything. Please give me the reason why you guys are so obsessed with becoming powerful when there is no incentive in the game whatsoever.

Basically, why arent you guys complaining about the lack of incentive to grind instead? Shouldnt the incentive become first before you we start feel some actual merit to the grinding.?As it stands dudu could be removed entirely and nobody would miss him except for you guys :s. no seriously you guys are fucking weird. You gotta get it together man

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 09:24 AM
I meant that when you actually stop being all drawn into this thought that grinding is any form of progression(this is to you all), you kind of don't miss anything. Please give me the reason why you guys are so obsessed with becoming powerful when there is no incentive in the game whatsoever.

Basically, why arent you guys complaining about the lack of incentive to grind instead? Shouldnt the incentive become first before you we start feel some actual merit to the grinding.?As it stands dudu could be removed entirely and nobody would miss him except for you guys :s. no seriously you guys are fucking weird. You gotta get it together man

Its like this some people don't want to be underpowered some don't want to be horridly gimped either. Sure we complain about it,but that's just us talking about our PAST EXP. with it is all. We are blowing this way out of proportion anyway some of the stuff being said here I wondering if you would say that to a Japaneses person,but no I don't want to get off topic.

Anyway the point being affixing and grinding is part of the game as is meant to help you become stronger and a lot of us want to play the game in the best way possible without being a burden to he next AT LEAST this is how I and I mean it this is how I looks at it.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 09:33 AM
Except I'm a premium and I get AC frequently yet I still fail grinds (sometimes catastrophically) all the time. I don't understand the point you're trying to make? Buying AC is meant to make things more convenient and in some cases quicker. It just doesn't always guarantee what you're looking for. Shouldn't you all be bitching about the scratch too if that sort of thing bothers you so much?

@Metaldude

I'm not trying to be contrary just because I don't agree with you. I'm now going to invoke the Mcdonalds analogy...a lot of people like Mcdonalds, I don't so I don't eat it. Does that make me contrary? No...it means I don't like McDonald's...this isn't difficult to understand.

Why is the way things work unreasonable the way it is? If I have no complaints there's plenty of people out there who probably feel alike. These people are probably not posting on forums like i am as much as people who are so genuinely unhappy with the game they play. Everyone has this huge unexplainable aversion to any concept or notion towards paying money for PSO2 or not being able to get everything they want without an exact play by play book laying out their battle plan. Some stuff is just random, which leaves a little to "luck" to surprise you when things go your way.


I'm sorry I'm not going to argue this with you. You clearly don't have the capacity for seeing your own nose, let alone anything beyond it.

if you buy AC all the time I assume you have hundreds of millions of meseta. if you don't you're doing it wrong.

You spend that meseta on grinders, rate bonuses and full protects (or you know...just win them).

Now you just run full protects and rate boosters til you max the weapon.

Buy more AC

Repeat.

That's called pay to win.

trying to argue against this is ridiculous. people are doing it as we speak and it's a problem.

Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. Then I'll know you're just trolling.

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 09:39 AM
I'm sorry I'm not going to argue this with you. You clearly don't have the capacity for seeing your own nose, let alone anything beyond it.

if you buy AC all the time I assume you have hundreds of millions of meseta. if you don't you're doing it wrong.

You spend that meseta on grinders, rate bonuses and full protects (or you know...just win them).

Now you just run full protects and rate boosters til you max the weapon.

buy more AC

repeat.

trying to argue against this is ridiculous. people are doing it as we speak and it's a problem.

Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. Then I'll know you're just trolling.Your hypothetical assumes I spend HOARDS of money on PSO2 which is not the average person who buys AC, which makes your presumptions illogical and not even worth considering.

Me personally I haven't had too much trouble getting +10 WITHOUT the need for those items so I can't agree with you even still.im not telling you you're wrong, I'm saying not everyone thinks the system is flawed. There's a major difference...

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 09:40 AM
Yeah you're just trying to argue. have fun with that.

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 09:41 AM
I meant that when you actually stop being all drawn into this thought that grinding is any form of progression(this is to you all), you kind of don't miss anything. Please give me the reason why you guys are so obsessed with becoming powerful when there is no incentive in the game whatsoever.

Basically, why arent you guys complaining about the lack of incentive to grind instead? Shouldnt the incentive become first before you we start feel some actual merit to the grinding.?As it stands dudu could be removed entirely and nobody would miss him except for you guys :s. no seriously you guys are fucking weird. You gotta get it together man

The only thing worse than a bad weapon improvement system that you aren't forced to use to somewhat decently compete is a bad weapon improvement system you are forced to use to compete.

Why aren't we demanding more difficult content that requires grinding? Because that would only worsen the fact that grinding is bullshit.

Zyrusticae
Apr 12, 2013, 09:43 AM
I meant that when you actually stop being all drawn into this thought that grinding is any form of progression(this is to you all), you kind of don't miss anything. Please give me the reason why you guys are so obsessed with becoming powerful when there is no incentive in the game whatsoever.

Basically, why arent you guys complaining about the lack of incentive to grind instead? Shouldnt the incentive become first before you we start feel some actual merit to the grinding.?As it stands dudu could be removed entirely and nobody would miss him except for you guys :s. no seriously you guys are fucking weird. You gotta get it together man
The problem is that the biggest boosts all come at the very last few grinds (+8->+10), creating this irritating psychological incentive to just get in that last few attempts. Some of us are also admittedly weak-minded and will stubbornly attempt to beat the odds no matter how stacked against us they actually are. And then there's the envy factor from seeing other players with maxed-out gear and how they perform in the field (often with overwhelming results). It should be no surprise that they incentivize grinding as much as possible even with the difficulty being what it is.

And note that bosses in particular still benefit from higher damage, up until the point where you can kill them in a few seconds. You can't tell people that damage doesn't matter when they're trying specifically to get as many Falz Arms runs as they possibly can within that 30 minute window.

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 09:44 AM
Yeah you're just trying to argue. have fun with that.

I can tell ya now Zipzo has a truckload of meseta grinding 10* without said protection as other things? Legit or bust<3~?

Eveningxtar
Apr 12, 2013, 09:48 AM
Well. the grinding system is really far too random and pretty punishing in a sense, spent 700k to get a red saber from +8 to +10, gotta say it is down right ridiculous

Sp-24
Apr 12, 2013, 09:51 AM
The only thing worse than a bad weapon improvement system that you aren't forced to use to somewhat decently compete is a bad weapon improvement system you are forced to use to compete.

Why aren't we demanding more difficult content that requires grinding? Because that would only worsen the fact that grinding is bullshit.
Haven't they added more difficult content already? I won't ignore the possibility that it's just me being a terrible Force, but even with my slightly above-average equipment, it took me over 15 minutes to kill the damn frog on the first encounter, and after getting careless for a second, Dragon EX killed me in one hit dealing 120% damage (thanks, Deband Drink).

Just you wait, they are adding Psycho Wand-level stuff very soon to "help" you deal with this. Without fixing the grinding, of course.

MimiChan
Apr 12, 2013, 09:56 AM
Yeah I think something is wrong with the RNG. I was trying to Affix 80/80/100 but being poor that I am, I can't afford the +20% so Dudu failed me. Out of frustration I just basically clicked anything to affix and he gave me this:
http://s24.postimg.org/tgjfcamrl/pso20130412_223538_000.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/tgjfcamrl/)

Da Fuq?

Bellion
Apr 12, 2013, 09:58 AM
^Gotta love that RNG, lol. I've failed a 90/90 and then succeeded with a 37/45 immediately...

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 10:00 AM
Well, I wouldn't really call higher level enemies more difficult. You just manipulate flinch mechanics for more attacks. That's it, really.

The den is the only content I would consider "difficult" so far, because it actually can be with the mix of what it throws at you. Lots of bosses, good pacing, and tons of stuff you can't just AOE flinchlock until it dies.

But AQ's, and probably tower? Meh. The tower looks like it'll just be an AQ with a different map and enemies. It seems to have a 30 minute timer and 5 floors. I'm assuming it gives +1 per run, like an AQ, because the concept of a tower that never actually gets more difficult as you progress is...horrible.

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 10:04 AM
Yeah I think something is wrong with the RNG. I was trying to Affix 80/80/100 but being poor that I am, I can't afford the +20% so Dudu failed me. Out of frustration I just basically clicked anything to affix and he gave me this:
http://s24.postimg.org/tgjfcamrl/pso20130412_223538_000.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/tgjfcamrl/)

Da Fuq?

Get the hell outta here with that shit omg the troll in that<3!

http://i46.tinypic.com/6jlq1l.jpg

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 10:51 AM
Yeah you're just trying to argue. have fun with that.

There's no argument...you aren't going to convince me the system is a "failure" and requires addressing and I won't be able to convince you otherwise either. I'm simply presenting you with an opposing viewpoint in spite of the fact that a lot of people like to think that they can so easily blanket their ideas on to what EVERYONE thinks. I do NOT agree with you. Doesn't make you wrong or me right.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 11:07 AM
look, smart guy. I said the system has gotten worse than it used to be. statistically. this is the general consensus, you troll.

Secondly I stated that it encourages people to spend real money to circumvent the RNG. this is also indisputable.

You're not offering a view point, you're just harassing people because you're bored.

Agastya
Apr 12, 2013, 11:59 AM
anybody who thinks 80% is a good chance should start using stone edge and fire blast

Agitated_AT
Apr 12, 2013, 12:08 PM
The only thing worse than a bad weapon improvement system that you aren't forced to use to somewhat decently compete is a bad weapon improvement system you are forced to use to compete.

Why aren't we demanding more difficult content that requires grinding? Because that would only worsen the fact that grinding is bullshit.

This sounds reasonable yes. Both need fixing really. But to me priority is really set at the primary things, and all the secondary stuff that's supposed to accommodate the primary should be talked about as well yes, but what's strange is that no one is mentioning the primary issues in these topics.

Seriously I am so underpowered it's not even funny. I am level 40, still have equips from around Tundra hard, and very hard content don't give me any trouble at all. I do gotta say that the later content around floating island/ruins and the newest area with my character have been "a blast". I was very impressed by the new area in general so the future definitely looks promising

Kondibon
Apr 12, 2013, 12:23 PM
The only thing worse than a bad weapon improvement system that you aren't forced to use to somewhat decently compete is a bad weapon improvement system you are forced to use to compete.

Why aren't we demanding more difficult content that requires grinding? Because that would only worsen the fact that grinding is bullshit.

I'm surprised no one said this sooner. This is probably the most egregious problem with the game in general. If they make it so +10 rares are required to even survive high end stuff then it's gonna drive people even further up a wall unless they make grinding considerably easier. If they only do one or the other we'd have a whole slew of other problems.

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 12:25 PM
This sounds reasonable yes. Both need fixing really. But to me priority is really set at the primary things, and all the secondary stuff that's supposed to accommodate the primary should be talked about as well yes, but what's strange is that no one is mentioning the primary issues in these topics.

Seriously I am so underpowered it's not even funny. I am level 40, still have equips from around Tundra hard, and very hard content don't give me any trouble at all. I do gotta say that the later content around floating island/ruins and the newest area with my character have been "a blast". I was very impressed by the new area in general so the future definitely looks promising

That's because enemies have very low def, but moderateto high hp. In PSO1 or PSU enemies had high def but moderate to low hp. 1 more POW could mean 2x damage, as you went from 1 damage to 2. But here? That is VERY rare for an enemy to have such high def.

That's why multipliers are better than static point skills. 50 ATK could mean 2x damage on a player with low ATK. But nobody has a mere 50 more ATK than the enemy's DEF stat. Enemies have very, very low DEF. Players, no matter what their gear is, usually have MUCH more than 500 higher ATK than the enemy's DEF, so 50 isn't even a 10% gain for most of us.

UnLucky
Apr 12, 2013, 01:19 PM
The JP players complain about grinding to +10 being too hard

So now we get the option to pay to lose our +10 grind multiple times for some shitty secondary bonus that isn't even good

The JP players complain about grinding to +10 being too hard

So now we don't have to grind useless rares for titles that only some completionists even cared about in the first place

The JP players complain about grinding to +10 being too hard

So now we get the option to trade in 20 real cash items for a one time +7 grind, but no higher, and it can drop back down afterwards unless we use another real cash item.

Sp-24
Apr 12, 2013, 01:25 PM
I'm surprised no one said this sooner. This is probably the most egregious problem with the game in general. If they make it so +10 rares are required to even survive high end stuff then it's gonna drive people even further up a wall unless they make grinding considerably easier. If they only do one or the other we'd have a whole slew of other problems.
That's why they are taking baby steps, and are barely fixing anything. The current awful system works.

If a full party will require high-end gear to survive new quests, since it's impossible to grind without wasting either copious amounts of time and meseta or real money, you bet people aren't going to be pleased. However, making grinding and affixing tolerable will make people take all those grind protectors and risk reducers much less seriously, and there's only so much money that you can make from people playing dressup lottery, even in Japan.

Taking either of those paths bears a risk of losing money from the players. Meanwhile, now, people brag about how smart they are for outwitting Sega and buying a +20% affix item on this forum.
anybody who thinks 80% is a good chance should start using stone edge and fire blast
Inapplicable to PSO2. In PSO2, you miss 15 times in a row using Guillotine, and then spend hours trying to get enough money to make your next move.

That's it, really. Doodoo uses Double Team.

gigawuts
Apr 12, 2013, 01:30 PM
The JP players complain about grinding to +10 being too hard

So now we get the option to pay to lose our +10 grind multiple times for some shitty secondary bonus that isn't even good

The JP players complain about grinding to +10 being too hard

So now we don't have to grind useless rares for titles that only some completionists even cared about in the first place

The JP players complain about grinding to +10 being too hard

So now we get the option to trade in 20 real cash items for a one time +7 grind, but no higher, and it can drop back down afterwards unless we use another real cash item.

It's great because this is exactly what has happened. Exactly.

The feedback-based "fixes" revolve around that entire idea of "how can we pretend to be listening to feedback?" I won't even get into JP's complaining that rares were easier to buy than find back in hard mode, so sega made new rares that you couldn't buy which allowed them to be 10x as hard to get yet still technically not be easier to buy than find :wacko:

Sp-24
Apr 12, 2013, 01:56 PM
And it's even worse with grinding, since they outright said how they made this risk lower, and that success higher, but somehow forgot to mention that units are now much harder to grind than before. And it's not like anything has changed about grinding weapons anyway - I still fell from +9 to at least +6 five times in a row when grinding a red wand. If anything, it's even worse than my past experience with 7☆ garbage.

EvilMag
Apr 12, 2013, 02:08 PM
It's great because this is exactly what has happened. Exactly.

The feedback-based "fixes" revolve around that entire idea of "how can we pretend to be listening to feedback?" I won't even get into JP's complaining that rares were easier to buy than find back in hard mode, so sega made new rares that you couldn't buy which allowed them to be 10x as hard to get yet still technically not be easier to buy than find :wacko:

They'll keep trying to think of half ass things to do because they refuse to fix the real problem since Dudu is their cash cow. :l

Which brings up my biggest complaint I have with this game. Sega acknowledges most of the glaring flaws this game has but they refuse to fix them since they're swimming in money because of them.

Pyrii
Apr 12, 2013, 02:56 PM
And it's even worse with grinding, since they outright said how they made this risk lower, and that success higher, but somehow forgot to mention that units are now much harder to grind than before. And it's not like anything has changed about grinding weapons anyway - I still fell from +9 to at least +6 five times in a row when grinding a red wand. If anything, it's even worse than my past experience with 7☆ garbage.

I dunno about you but I've found the complete opposite has happened, risks have gone up and success rates have plummeted.

Till people start submitting grind logs though we won't have any real hard data though.

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 03:38 PM
look, smart guy. I said the system has gotten worse than it used to be. statistically. this is the general consensus, you troll.

Secondly I stated that it encourages people to spend real money to circumvent the RNG. this is also indisputable.

You're not offering a view point, you're just harassing people because you're bored.

What in the world of business isn't meant to encourage spending at least a bit of money? Pretty much EVERYTHING in life is made easier if you have more money. You're spouting a fact of life like its some kind of unique phenomena here.

Saying that the system encourages you to spend more money now than before is not "indisputable". Some may not be encouraged any more than they ever were now.

The real issue here is actually, hilariously, and perplexingly how you believe that everything you think is "indisputable" fact and anyone who thinks otherwise is a troll or stupid.

I'm not any more inclined to spend more money than I do. I get +10 just fine and I'm not bothered when I fail like you are. Surprise, I'm also not some small minority. Many people share these views.

Some of you guys need to get over yourselves...

BlankM
Apr 12, 2013, 03:43 PM
In my experience grinding is okay. Not good, but about as hopeless as other MMOs.

Affixing is bullshit. Like straight up. You could lose your entire bank getting those +30 stat affixes. Its not even fun. Like there aren't even cool weapon potentials or affixes, its literally just to piss those few perfectionists off.

BIG OLAF
Apr 12, 2013, 03:59 PM
I get +10 just fine and I'm not bothered when I fail like you are. Surprise, I'm also not some small minority. Many people share these views.

Some of you guys need to get over yourselves...

Even though you're trollbaiting something fierce, as per usual, you really have no goddamn clue what you're on about.

UnLucky
Apr 12, 2013, 04:21 PM
There should be more incentive to grind/affix, and less barriers discouraging ever using the system.

More options to increase success, not reduce failure.

They can disproportionately charge more MST/AC for expected value but make more money AND happy players, if they feel it is rewarding enough. Like trade in grinders for 5-10% success boosters, or select how many grinders to use per try.

Offering to jump straight to +7 for 20 AC items is a real kick in the pants. Who even wanted that? Obviously not the average player, free or otherwise. But if it were cheaper, people would use it on EVERYTHING.

20 Excubes for a single 30% bonus is absurd. Really, ten levels at cap or 20 rare weapons to maybe double your chances one time?

The system is set up to be so punishing you either don't try for a +10, don't reach a +10 when you try, or you get your +10 and never budge from that spot because it's just not worth upgrading. Maybe the large upfront cost will get some cash flow occasionally for "the +10 rare."

See, if weapon potentials were generally good, if grinding a new weapon was a reasonable thing to do, and many small boosts were available easily but large boosts are AC only... You know what happens? More people grind more gear more often and spend more money! Wow!

Macman
Apr 12, 2013, 04:38 PM
Basically, why arent you guys complaining about the lack of incentive to grind instead? Shouldnt the incentive become first before you we start feel some actual merit to the grinding.?As it stands dudu could be removed entirely and nobody would miss him except for you guys :s. no seriously you guys are fucking weird. You gotta get it together man
I dunno about you but spending 5 minutes whacking at an enemy and abusing flinchlock with a 300-attack weapon until it finally dies is not fun. It's tedious.

gravityvx
Apr 12, 2013, 04:41 PM
I've got no issues with grinding anymore, even more so now than before now that grind protects are only 200k, and grinders 2kish both now worth actually buying if you wanted. Affixing on the other hand, is just downright ridiculously bad. Combined with stupid cost to affix higher tier gear with the cost of fodder, amount of slot you want, and fails at however many slots youre trying to get...far outweighs grinding weapons by miles. Affixing...so bad.

MetalDude
Apr 12, 2013, 04:44 PM
The core issue is that the system is centered around pushing you into paying to make up for how stupid it is rather than having the system work fairly well in its own right but have real money cut down time investments needed. It's even worse that the payments you can make in this game won't even fully fix the issue (given that you even manage to get one out of scratch). Using money as a reason to do this doesn't actually make it ok to design it so poorly to begin with. The reason the F2P model is so loathed is because it's abused when there's actually plenty of workarounds to encourage spending without harming the integrity of the game itself.

Feign
Apr 12, 2013, 05:19 PM
I am an enormous masochist.

Also, yes, you're in the minority.

Pyrii
Apr 12, 2013, 05:39 PM
The core issue is that the system is centered around pushing you into paying to make up for how stupid it is rather than having the system work fairly well in its own right but have real money cut down time investments needed. It's even worse that the payments you can make in this game won't even fully fix the issue (given that you even manage to get one out of scratch). Using money as a reason to do this doesn't actually make it ok to design it so poorly to begin with. The reason the F2P model is so loathed is because it's abused when there's actually plenty of workarounds to encourage spending without harming the integrity of the game itself.

^ This. The game is designed to almost force you to pay cash to keep going, the extreme difficulty without decent gear and constant cheap deaths then prompting you to pay for scape dolls reminds me of coin-op mentality. Some people liked them for the challenge, I hated them because I never found my money went far enough with those games.

It seems SEGA forgot that a game also has to be FUN sometimes.

Dnd
Apr 12, 2013, 05:45 PM
It seems SEGA forgot that a game also has to be FUN sometimes.

that's what the fun scratch is for :3.

MetalDude
Apr 12, 2013, 05:51 PM
Dnd, I've got the dumbest looking grin on my face right now.

Lostbob117
Apr 12, 2013, 06:11 PM
I meant that when you actually stop being all drawn into this thought that grinding is any form of progression(this is to you all), you kind of don't miss anything. Please give me the reason why you guys are so obsessed with becoming powerful when there is no incentive in the game whatsoever.

Basically, why arent you guys complaining about the lack of incentive to grind instead? Shouldnt the incentive become first before you we start feel some actual merit to the grinding.?As it stands dudu could be removed entirely and nobody would miss him except for you guys :s. no seriously you guys are fucking weird. You gotta get it together man

The reason people grind is because they like to clear mobs faster, so instead of taking a minute killing a mob they can just run up and blow the mob out of their face.

The real problem is. Why lock all that power behind a really annoying rng system? Of course the answer is money. However SEGA could atleast make the RNG better since a 70% success is no different then a 20% success fokr affixing something since it is just random. It's almost like a 50/50 chance you'll get what you want. Unless you make all the %'s 100. Which cost tons of meseta.

Saotome Kaneda
Apr 12, 2013, 06:11 PM
^ This. The game is designed to almost force you to pay cash to keep going, the extreme difficulty without decent gear and constant cheap deaths then prompting you to pay for scape dolls reminds me of coin-op mentality. Some people liked them for the challenge, I hated them because I never found my money went far enough with those games.

It seems SEGA forgot that a game also has to be FUN sometimes.
please let this all be sarcasm considering the game has been made progressively easier over the almost year it's been out

Feign
Apr 12, 2013, 06:19 PM
please let this all be sarcasm considering the game has been made progressively easier over the almost year it's been out

We all leave games at some point, whether by choice or by force. But I can promise you, when you leave this game, the things that will stand out most in your mind will be that smiling, aged face, sloppy black hair, a hand raised in demonstration and HU HU HU NANI WO KANE???

Noc Codez
Apr 12, 2013, 06:27 PM
It seems Dudu has been made even more evil. I have also failed things all day today with 70% chances.. I think they broke him in the last update.. lol

Feign
Apr 12, 2013, 06:29 PM
It seems Dudu has been made even more evil. I have also failed things all day today with 70% chances.. I think they broke him in the last update.. lol

"We accidentally increased Dudu's fail rate last patch, so have 99 Grinders as an apology, which you'll burn through instantly on your trip to +3."

gravityvx
Apr 12, 2013, 06:33 PM
^ This. The game is designed to almost force you to pay cash to keep going, the extreme difficulty without decent gear and constant cheap deaths then prompting you to pay for scape dolls reminds me of coin-op mentality. Some people liked them for the challenge, I hated them because I never found my money went far enough with those games.

It seems SEGA forgot that a game also has to be FUN sometimes.

Please elaborate what, if anything...makes anyone almost feel like they are forced to buy anything in this game(aside from lolscratchclothes). Because you can get through any content in this game with any decent gear at least in the tier of the dfficulty you're doing with not very much more effort than a completely geared player, of course it varies by what class you're playing but the results are nearly the same unless we're talking about TA(which is also a moderate source of income with no shop) and you actually want to clear very fast.

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 07:00 PM
Even though you're trollbaiting something fierce, as per usual, you really have no goddamn clue what you're on about.

Haha...you know what...whatever man. You keep...doing whatever it is you do. Do you even know what trolling is?

I'll tell you what it's not. Stating an opinion that I fully endorse and believe in, that I'm sharing with others in an effort to bring light to an alternative perception or view point. For the pure purpose of starting a flame fest/argument? No. To do the former. Just. Simply. Share. So instead of trolling that's more like what you call on a discussion board...posting.

The same could probably not be said for your broken record one liners simply meant to attack and accuse me of trolling every chance you get for god knows what reason or productive value.

I have some pretty "harcore"-ey gamer values. I believe in some things being over-ly tough (even if that toughness is completely inordinate or needless in the form of RNG) sometimes. I'm okay with not liking some things in a game simply because they are obstacles that impede my way to success, I don't believe I have to enjoy every single facet of a game. I think the things that stand in my way act as motivators to overcome them, even if those things aren't "enjoyable" to overcome. There's no way you can make every single grind in an MMO fun in every which way. There has to be a factor somewhere that just has the potential to make you think "Oh man, when I finally get that +10 I will do a fucking cartwheel".

We have these things called ふくぶくろ in Japan (means lucky bag) that stores give out on Christmas. All stores have them almost, even apple stores. Where you pay a lumped sum depending on the size or amount of items in the bag and you have no idea what's inside. It could be a random assortment of junk, or you might get an iPad. This thing is extremely popular, even though you could potentially spend a deceent sum of money on a worthless of pile of anonymous junk. Despite the fact that this activity could result in you wasting your real-life money, people love this shit in Japan. I'm really thinking it must be a cultural thing...but RNG is just part of the wind this day and age. It's "fun" to native Japanese. This being a Japanese game, you can see how the enjoyment of such things may have transferred over in to some of the concepts of the game. There is nothing you can do about it unless you want to blatantly change the culture.

That's really the only thing I'm getting at here. So yeah, I'm in the minority here on PSO-W clearly. That's a given, but none of you are the voice of the actual legitimate masses playing PSO2...this doesn't mean no Japanese people complain about RNG...but I can guarantee you without any reasonable doubt that it's not the issue you think it is.

I thought losing your weapon in PSO was a pretty awesome mechanic too. While it was done away with and it was obviously abused, it sure did a damn fine job of making people play less carelessly and try to avoid death.

Some of you guys would have hated older MMOs...what with perma death and the like.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 07:12 PM
Haha...you know what...whatever man. You keep...doing whatever it is you do. Do you even know what trolling is?

Here, let me show you.

/5char

Zaven
Apr 12, 2013, 07:18 PM
How is this gonna get resolved? This thread i mean. There are players who defend the fact that RNG should be rewritten, or maybe the whole affixe system. Okay. There are people who like it the way it is, or at least aren't so angry with it and overcome it.

At some point you guys have to take your decision. You made your points, good points. Taking a side is complicated, there are very good arguments on both sides (wheter you like it or not, yes there are). But now what? I say send your ticket if you really think something should be done. Act, and stop talking about that. I mean.. i am not saying shut up, just that at some point you need to act if you really do believe that you need to act. If you wanna convince someone, convince SoJ, stop trying to convince each other, you won't, and it's a sad reading, very sad.


Edit : Okay i couldn't find a nice way to say it but please believe that comes from my bad english : SoJ is not gonna care one bite about all of this. Players reporting? Maybe. But this conversation? It's madness. Quit trashing each other over an issue that is eventually gonna be in SoJ's hands, not yours. All of this, it's not necessary, it's going too far.

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 07:20 PM
/5char

How you accuse me of trolling yet troll with impunity at me as blatantly as some kind of tiki dance around a bonfire is...hilarious.

Can you even present some kind of reasonable argument as to why what I'm saying is not...sensible or logical? I'm pretty sure I didn't write the above in another language. It's in a language I presume you can read and understand, is it not?

Don't take this as wanting your validation, I'm simply curious how this all seems to fly over your head.

UnLucky
Apr 12, 2013, 07:23 PM
Except I'm not doing cartwheels when I "achieve" a "tough" affix, grind or rare drop. I say "fucking finally goddamn" or "wow that worked?"

Neither of those are elated victory cries or feelings of satisfaction. My failure is through no fault of my own, and my success is not by my own merits.

The lucky bags are a good tactic to push old stock for cheap. Just look at woot's bags of crap, which are usually full of junk that doesn't sell, with the occasional worthwhile item to incentivize customers.

Random item pools and lotteries are nothing new, but are clearly money making schemes. Expected return is lower than the initial cost, but the slim chance at the jackpot entices gamblers. But if it's clearly a rip off, only the truly addicted will throw away their money. Making every payout worthwhile can be difficult, especially in a free market, and a low ticket price for high reward is borderline charity, but a good balance can make more money from more players than a totally scummy system, and everyone is happy.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 07:24 PM
How is this gonna get resolved? This thread i mean. There are players who defend the fact that RNG should be rewritten, or maybe the whole affixe system. Okay. There are people who like it the way it is, or at least aren't so angry with it and overcome it.

At some point you guys have to take your decision. You made your points, good points. Taking a side is complicated, there are very good arguments on both sides (wheter you like it or not, yes there are). But now what? I say send your ticket if you really think something should be done. Act, and stop talking about that. I mean.. i am not saying shut up, just that at some point you need to act if you really do believe that you need to act. If you wanna convince someone, convince SoJ, stop trying to convince each other, you won't, and it's a sad reading, very sad.


Edit : Okay i couldn't find a nice way to say it but please believe that comes from my bad english : SoJ is not gonna care one bite about all of this. Players reporting? Maybe. But this conversation? It's madness. Quit trashing each other over an issue that is eventually gonna be in SoJ's hands, not yours. All of this, it's not necessary, it's going too far.

They don't overcome it they circumvent it either by investing large amounts of money or just not using it.

They say they're ok with that which somehow means anyone who actually wants to see the system made better is some combination of stupid and incompetent.

That's pretty much PSOW in a nutshell. "I wont get anything out of it so you need to stfu."

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 07:27 PM
They don't overcome it they circumbent it either by investing large amounts of money or just not using it.

They say they're ok with that which somehow means anyone who actually wants to see the system made better is some combination of stupid and incompetent.

That's pretty much PSOW in a nutshell. "I wont get anything out of it so you need to stfu."

Just like how someone with lots of real money can just go buy an actual iPad directly, instead of buying an RNG bag and hoping there's an iPad inside.

There's no damn difference.

There you go putting words in my mouth again...when did I say that your wants or needs were stupid or incompetent? Uh, never. I simply have an opposing view point on the satisfactory level of the game mechanics in PSO2. You hate them, think they ought to be "improved" or the game is going under.

I simply think you don't fix what isn't broken *shrug.

UnLucky
Apr 12, 2013, 07:28 PM
Can you even present some kind of reasonable argument as to why what I'm saying is not...sensible or logical?

A random system can be fine.

A random system propped up with cash items to alleviate the randomness can be fine.

A random system intentionally skewed heavily against the player and propped up with cash items to provide a reasonable chance to not get plain fucked... is not fine.


Just like how someone with lots of real money can just go buy an actual iPad directly, instead of buying an RNG bag and hoping there's an iPad inside.

There's no damn difference.
What if the only way to get an iPad would be through the RNG bags? And you can pay an extra fee to get a bag slightly more likely to get an iPad in it?

Let's also assume people want iPads while we're at it

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 07:29 PM
Please fight with me, I'm bored

nothx

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 07:32 PM
A random system can be fine.

A random system propped up with cash items to alleviate the randomness can be fine.

A random system intentionally skewed heavily against the player and propped up with cash items to provide a reasonable chance to not get plain fucked... is not fine.

Yet #2 and #3 are nearly for all intents and purposes, identical. The only difference between the two is based on someones experience. You essentially asserted that 3 is fine by saying 2 is fine. 3 is not something you can reasonably measure mathematically because it's all random.

There could be a guy who, bad probability wherewithall, never has a shady time getting his weapon to +10. Then there's people like Gigabutts or SociopathicTyrannosaur who probably are so used to hearing the fail blurb sound effect that they probably hear it in their dreams on repeat, and that sucks. I mean, of course it sucks to fail a lot. The only solution (for anyone who fails, whether they fail a lot or don't fail that much) is to try again though. Just try the heck again. There's no better solution unless you pay money. For the game you play for, you know, free otherwise. You should be glad they don't just gate your weapon at +8 or +9 while grinding at Dudu unless you're premium or something. Many other games do things like that. You are essentially lucky SEGA runs with the mantra they do for F2P (do you feel lucky though?). I am inclined to think people more take the freedom to actually achieve pretty much anything in game (whether slower or faster) without paying anything for granite.

Replace "iPad" with any expensive piece of technology people want these days. I don't know. It's your world.

UnLucky
Apr 12, 2013, 07:43 PM
And that's exactly the difference. A matter of degree.

You say it's fine. A lucky person says it's fine. A paying player who also gets lucky says it's fine.

But if the average case is back to back failure with little chance of progression after a large investment of time and money (virtual or otherwise), then it's discouraging to use and should be improved. For the better enjoyment of everyone involved, including Sega themselves who depend on paying customers to use their product.

Too much of a handout means less reason to pay Sega money.
Too much of a cashgrab means less willingness to pay Sega money.

That's the difference between cases #1, 2, and 3.

Agastya
Apr 12, 2013, 07:49 PM
constant cheap deaths then prompting you to pay for scape dollsDid You Know?

Your chances of survival drastically improve if you don't stand in front of enemies and pay attention to your surroundings! Pay attention to your "Radar" in the upper-right corner of the screen. It even allows you to see if there are enemies behind you!

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 07:52 PM
And that's exactly the difference. A matter of degree.

You say it's fine. A lucky person says it's fine. A paying player who also gets lucky says it's fine.

But if the average case is back to back failure with little chance of progression after a large investment of time and money (virtual or otherwise), then it's discouraging to use and should be improved. For the better enjoyment of everyone involved, including Sega themselves who depend on paying customers to use their product.

Too much of a handout means less reason to pay Sega money.
Too much of a cashgrab means less willingness to pay Sega money.

That's the difference between cases #1, 2, and 3.

And this is where I think we've hit the point where we can either start making up figure/statistics, or we go full circle.

We need some more survey's thrown out on these specific issues so we can see an actual identifiable statistic that isn't "seems to be on the forums that ______".

The best we can do otherwise is just see who hates it, see who doesn't care or even who likes it, and throw stones. Unfortunately that encompasses very many of the issues a lot of members of PSOW have with PSO2, thus is why I reason that arguments are quite easy to get churning over a lot of these issues in the face of opposition.

I'll give you something.

If you had to force me to come up with a way to "improve" grinding...I'd probably do something like what TERA eventually did to enchanting. A value that increases on failure but only by a smidgen and it has a cap as well. You can't ever really hit 100%, maybe not even 50%. I think that the chance of failure always existing is important. That's given I was forced, because I've yet to feel that an improvement is really that necessary. Almost every single person on my team has a +10 ten star they use, so why am I to believe +ten 10* is something that needs to be made so much more simple to obtain? Again...this is a perception slightly led by my own experience which in and of itself could make it inaccurate of the majority, just like everyone else's perception.

Maronji
Apr 12, 2013, 07:53 PM
... Is agreeing to disagree so difficult, you guys? Honestly...

It's pretty clear at this point that no one's going to budge. Why bother continuing this charade when it's a clear waste of time for everyone involved?

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 07:56 PM
... Is agreeing to disagree so difficult, you guys? Honestly...

It's pretty clear at this point that no one's going to budge. Why bother continuing this charade when it's a clear waste of time for everyone involved?


That's a good question. It usually starts around the part where somebody calls somebody an idiot, or stupid, or assertively implies that the person is a moron for possibly thinking of being on the other side of the fence. I don't even think I need to point fingers where these things immediately crop up when an alternate view point comes out.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 08:13 PM
"Hey guys, people disagree with you when you say things they don't agree with"

...fascinating.

Zipzo
Apr 12, 2013, 08:19 PM
"Hey guys, people disagree with you when you say things they don't agree with"

...fascinating.

Rofl.

It's nothing to do with what you disagree on, it's everything to do with how you disagree. You'd do well to learn the difference. Besides...what's the point of being so aggressive all the time over this stuff? Is it really worth the effort? It's not like any of this is that big of a deal. I mean, what gives? You think it needs to be fixed, I don't. We should all be able to get ice cream and laugh about it at the end of the day anyhow.

Maronji
Apr 12, 2013, 08:21 PM
... *sigh* Screw this. I give up.

I'm just going to leave this here (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205507) and be on my way.

Syklo
Apr 12, 2013, 11:16 PM
Easy solution - Let synthesizers be useable as grinding/affixing boosters (+1%, +2% or +5% per piece, idk).

Pyrii
Apr 12, 2013, 11:40 PM
Did You Know?

Your chances of survival drastically improve if you don't stand in front of enemies and pay attention to your surroundings! Pay attention to your "Radar" in the upper-right corner of the screen. It even allows you to see if there are enemies behind you!

Did you know... being smug and assuming people are idiots makes you look like one instead?

Cheap deaths can occur in every game, but in PSO2 there are many instances where I felt that this is done on purpose rather than simply a bad coincidence.

Just so you know "Cheap Deaths" are deaths where the player has little to no chance of preventing themselves from being killed off, usually due to an overpowered enemy or poorly thought out game mechanic.

Example: I was running around V.Caves(normal) at level 30 gunner, within seconds, a FO clone had spawned in-front (literally face-to-face) of me and immediately cast a tech that one-hit-ko'd me. No warning as none of the dialogue or "Code:" announcements had fired off. Zap. Dead. Could I have prevented it? Maybe if I took another route, but I shouldn't be punished for not being psychic.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 12, 2013, 11:55 PM
Hands MPA and clones are the most notorious offenders of that.

NotRankin
Apr 12, 2013, 11:57 PM
3 mil down the drain trying to make a 50/60/100%. Meh.

Zenobia
Apr 12, 2013, 11:58 PM
Did You Know?

Your chances of survival drastically improve if you don't stand in front of enemies and pay attention to your surroundings! Pay attention to your "Radar" in the upper-right corner of the screen. It even allows you to see if there are enemies behind you!

Did You Know?

That looking at the enemies on the screen is basically your own radar?

Honestly dude if you need the radar to tell you everything and spoon feed you you're doing it wrong.

Xaeris
Apr 12, 2013, 11:59 PM
While there is the potential for cheap deaths in this game, I'm not sure how this necessitates Scape Dolls. It's not like death comes with any real penalty like exp or equipment loss. The absolute worst that could happen is that you die in a boss room with a rare boss and can't get back.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 13, 2013, 12:00 AM
True, if anything it necessitates playing in a group.

UnLucky
Apr 13, 2013, 12:20 AM
Falz Hands are way easier if you watch the radar. Won't get surprised by the smashy combo slap from behind as much that way. Now if only it didn't automatically zoom out the minimap every time...

Also talking about cheap deaths, one time I took like 600 damage out of nowhere. I was busy typing "WHAT WHO HOW WHAT WHY??" and then the Code: Avoid popped up on screen, and after I sent my message, I saw the purple fucker appear on my corpse. And then a party member revived themself with the same Moon they wanted to use on me.

I could tell you great stories of other games with brutal unavoidable oneshots in an attempt to sell cash shop self-revives, but that doesn't make the absurd Scape Doll pricing any better.

Syklo
Apr 13, 2013, 12:32 AM
Speaking of deaths, it's funny when you die while using a moon atomiser and it revives you.

gravityvx
Apr 13, 2013, 01:45 AM
Did You Know?

That looking at the enemies on the screen is basically your own radar?

Honestly dude if you need use the radar to tell you everything and spoon feed you you're doing it wrong right.

Tell that to those surprise buttsecks Set Sadinians that love to take you from behind offscreen, stagger you and have their friends try joining in, radar actually helps a ton when used along side visible targets. I eye my radar very frequently and it helps...especially in FC, though that's just a habbit from playing league of legends for 3 years, gotta have that map awareness.

Syklo
Apr 13, 2013, 02:43 AM
Tell that to those surprise buttsecks Set Sadinians that love to take you from behind offscreen, stagger you and have their friends try joining in, radar actually helps a ton when used along side visible targets. I eye my radar very frequently and it helps...especially in FC, though that's just a habbit from playing league of legends for 3 years, gotta have that map awareness.
I feel sad to admit this but...

I usually open the area map every chunk I enter ._.
I.e. I use area map more than the minimap....

Saffran
Apr 13, 2013, 04:38 AM
The radar? You mean, the zoomed-in minimap? Didn't we have a field trip last year about who would ever use it?
The regular minimap is fine though. I use it to check where the code spawned or if there's a boss somewhere.

Also, "protip" I guess: you can hear Set Sadinians as they prepare to jump/charge. They do nail me once in a while, but it's not too hard to avoid them, even if they're off screen.
Mind you, I have not played the AQ variation yet.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 13, 2013, 06:09 AM
Kinda hard to listen in when you have a quartz shrieking at you and windiras charging lasers while techs and explosions are going off...>_>

jooozek
Apr 13, 2013, 06:16 AM
sound system is fucked up now anyway ever since some patch in february or january
i mean
you can hear people charge techs as if you were charging them yourself
what the fuck?
and then you have a rare drop right behind and no jingle played
i think id first try drowning myself before i started relying on this fucked up sound system

Macman
Apr 13, 2013, 06:50 AM
and then you have a rare drop right behind and no jingle played

This shit right here is the worst. I've literally went backtracking through the map to deposit some code collect and there's just this Lambda Failnaught sitting out in the open that I never heard drop.

They need to give rare drops a red dot on the map or something.

gigawuts
Apr 13, 2013, 08:00 AM
sound system is fucked up now anyway ever since some patch in february or january
i mean
you can hear people charge techs as if you were charging them yourself
what the fuck?
and then you have a rare drop right behind and no jingle played
i think id first try drowning myself before i started relying on this fucked up sound system

I don't hear things that are offscreen. Well, occasionally I do, but I almost never hear offscreen stuff. That applies to enemies of all kinds, bosses, and god damnit even falz hands. I'll be decking it out on a falz hand's weak point and WHAM WHABAM, the last 2 hits of a chainsmash.

It didn't always do that, I didn't change my hardware or software, all my drivers are up to date, and I've tried all sound settings I can think of. This happened around the same time I started noticing things like security lasers in mines not rendering if the little projector module was offscreen, too. Great vita optimizations sega.

And then, of course, other peoples' charged techs and JA sounds no matter where they freaking are on the planet.

Zenobia
Apr 13, 2013, 08:13 AM
Tell that to those surprise buttsecks Set Sadinians that love to take you from behind offscreen, stagger you and have their friends try joining in, radar actually helps a ton when used along side visible targets. I eye my radar very frequently and it helps...especially in FC, though that's just a habbit from playing league of legends for 3 years, gotta have that map awareness.

lol I never had that problem what so ever as im always moving way to much to be hit no srsly and bout the only time I actually need it is when I want to find those red crystals from bosses...bout it so yeah....about that.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 13, 2013, 08:37 AM
sound system is fucked up now anyway ever since some patch in february or january
i mean
you can hear people charge techs as if you were charging them yourself
what the fuck?
and then you have a rare drop right behind and no jingle played
i think id first try drowning myself before i started relying on this fucked up sound system

Yeah, this shit right here

gravityvx
Apr 13, 2013, 09:57 AM
Honestly dude if you need the radar to tell you everything and spoon feed you you're doing it wrong.


lol I never had that problem what so ever as im always moving way to much to be hit no srsly and bout the only time I actually need it is when I want to find those red crystals from bosses...bout it so yeah....about that.

So basically what you were saying is, because you don't use it and "never"get hit(lol) everyone who actually does make use of the radar is doing it wrong? Seems like you missed the point completely, the point was that the radar is very useful in almost any situation. And to clarify, I'm talking about the minimap radar. You can come up with every excuse in the world and it would never change that simple fact, anyone using the radar for additional assistance, is definitely doing it right since that's exactly what it's there for. Takes literally a second to look at it and see all enemy positions.

Saffran
Apr 13, 2013, 10:17 AM
Hmm, the tech charge sfx is actually useful to know if you're alone or not on the map.
I never noticed that the red box drop sound had disappeared - actually I'm quite sure it didn't - but it's true that you wouldn't hear the sound if some dude was killing an enemy like 3 squares away from you. The game still register that the enemy was killed and you get a rare out of it, but you're not warned. (funnily enough, everybody else on the map gets a warning that you got something)

Anyway, the sound doesn't seem amiss to me. I can still hear enemies charging me in my back.

gigawuts
Apr 13, 2013, 10:21 AM
You do know there's a menu made specifically to list all players on the map, right.

Goukezitsu
Apr 13, 2013, 01:01 PM
I'm not going to bother with agreeing or disagreeing on the rate because there's a consensus here that will not change. Instead I'll ask if most of you seen this? http://imgur.com/MSHeUPr

I think a lot of you aren't so much as unlucky as average. Grinding is just hard. It isn't streaks as much as its just flat out difficulty lol.

As for affixing, a lot of you probably don't affix much or ignore when it succeeds and emphasize when it fails. I do large sets a lot and I always come out average. If I and most others didn't we'd lose money from reselling and obviously we don't.


Tips: Use 10% boosters since they are cheap and they help. A 70% 60% affix is 42% success but a 60% 50% is 30%. That's a 40% increase in percentage for 50-70k vs 20% booster which is 56% and a 86% increase in percent for 10x the cost (only double the increase for 10x the value is a bad deal unless of course we're talking 100% but obviously we're not or else this wouldn't be an issue).

To grind a 10* brute force it with grinders to about +7 or +8 and start using -1s. Buy about 20-30 (560k-760k) and you should have it to 10 within that. You'll also save grinders and spend less on the actual cost of grinding (the 7-14k? from just attempting)

No one should attempt to grind a 10* if they have less than 2M (based upon the current market on ship 2).

Do AQs for grinders, Make sure you do all of your fun scratch, Run TA daily, and use -1s (not locks they make you feel safe but in reality you can get 10 -1s for the price of 1 lock lol If you purchased 8 locks that's 80 -1s which I've NEVER EVER spent anywhere NEAR that much on -1s and my grind luck is woefully average) and 10%s often.

Whether or not you believe these help or not does not matter. We have to assume that the game is based upon some sort of working statistics and using items that assist at low cost is beneficial to us as a group. If you do not use them all the time, than you are going to do worse on average. While we cannot change the system, we can fight as best as we can! If you choose not to, then you are just going to have to be more dissatisfied with something that isn't going away. I realize it does suck, but we all know complaining isn't going to fix things without a good implementation. So let's just use the free mechanics afforded to us to combat the system the best as we can instead of not using them and getting hurt even more in the process.

jooozek
Apr 13, 2013, 01:06 PM
your tips are pretty much useless
why? because we all already apply them
and we still get shit results

Zenobia
Apr 13, 2013, 04:13 PM
So basically what you were saying is, because you don't use it and "never"get hit(lol) everyone who actually does make use of the radar is doing it wrong? Seems like you missed the point completely, the point was that the radar is very useful in almost any situation. And to clarify, I'm talking about the minimap radar. You can come up with every excuse in the world and it would never change that simple fact, anyone using the radar for additional assistance, is definitely doing it right since that's exactly what it's there for. Takes literally a second to look at it and see all enemy positions.

Alrdy know you're talking about the mini map that's common sense as far as that goes. That is YOU this is ME like I said and im sticking by it I've never had that happen to me only time I could ever have myself getting combo hit is if im typing mid battle or doing a complete combo in which I cannot just guard in time and I do that alot im always twirling the camera around wherever I swing so yes dems the breaks.

And again like I said regardless whether if or not it takes a second to look at the radar as you so say I DON'T have to do that even if the radar wasn't there and we didn't have one would be the same way for me. You can take it however you want not gonna change my view point on how I see it period.

You can double quote all you want doesn't change what I said. Also I never said I NEVER GET HIT I said I've never been in that situation like you have for w/e reason it may be if you want me to be more specific.

Also I could care less about LOL as I don't play it doesn't appeal to me.

gravityvx
Apr 13, 2013, 05:10 PM
Did You Know?

That looking at the enemies on the screen is basically your own radar?

Honestly dude if you need the radar to tell you everything and spoon feed you you're doing it wrong.

What else is a radar going to do besides tell you everything, really? Scratch your back?


That is YOU this is ME like I said and im sticking by it I've never had that happen to me only time I could ever have myself getting combo hit is if im typing mid battle or doing a complete combo in which I cannot just guard in time and I do that alot im always twirling the camera around wherever I swing so yes dems the breaks.

And again like I said regardless whether if or not it takes a second to look at the radar as you so say I DON'T have to do that even if the radar wasn't there and we didn't have one would be the same way for me. You can take it however you want not gonna change my view point on how I see it period.

Also I never said I NEVER GET HIT I said I've never been in that situation like you have for w/e reason it may be.



So basically what you were saying is, because you don't use it and "never"get hit(lol) everyone who actually does make use of the radar is doing it wrong? Seems like you missed the point completely, the point was that the radar is very useful in almost any situation. And to clarify, I'm talking about the minimap radar.

You can come up with every excuse in the world and it would never change that simple fact, anyone using the radar for additional assistance, is definitely doing it right since that's exactly what it's there for. Takes literally a second to look at it and see all enemy positions.


Here you go, nice big letters since you completely missed my point. Again. No one is talking about you, no one said you had to do anything, no ones questioning your no scope l33tness, don't really care what you do really as I don't care how others do their thing. What does bother me are extremely silly remarks like that one. I've laid it out very plainly this time as to what I was getting at. And for one extra measure just in case you still don't get it, using the radar for enemy positions is nowhere near wrong nor does not using the radar make you better or inferior to anyone else. Feel free to see it how you want, as long as you actually get my point this time. Hilariously silly argument, but this just wouldn't be psow if there wasn't one. Anyway, I'm done so I hope you finally, finally...get it.

Zenobia
Apr 13, 2013, 05:19 PM
What else is a radar going to do besides tell you everything, really? Scratch your back?







Here you go, nice big letters since you completely missed my point. Again. No one is talking about you, no one said you had to do anything, no ones questioning your no scope l33tness, don't really care what you do really as I don't care how others do their thing. What does bother me are extremely silly remarks like that one. I've laid it out very plainly this time as to what I was getting at. And for one extra measure just in case you still don't get it, using the radar for enemy positions is nowhere near wrong nor does not using the radar make you better or inferior to anyone else. Feel free to see it how you want, as long as you actually get my point this time. Hilariously silly argument, but this just wouldn't be psow if there wasn't one. Anyway, I'm done so I hope you finally, finally...get it.


Alrdy know you're talking about the mini map that's common sense as far as that goes. That is YOU this is ME like I said and im sticking by it I've never had that happen to me only time I could ever have myself getting combo hit is if im typing mid battle or doing a complete combo in which I cannot just guard in time and I do that alot im always twirling the camera around wherever I swing so yes dems the breaks.

And again like I said regardless whether if or not it takes a second to look at the radar as you so say I DON'T have to do that even if the radar wasn't there and we didn't have one would be the same way for me. You can take it however you want not gonna change my view point on how I see it period.

You can double quote all you want doesn't change what I said. Also I never said I NEVER GET HIT I said I've never been in that situation like you have for w/e reason it may be if you want me to be more specific.

Also I could care less about LOL as I don't play it doesn't appeal to me.



Once again im gonna throw this out der until you get it I told you before and this is my last time I dun care what you say it won't change my outlook on it as I've said Im fully aware of that and again you really dun don't need it if you're getting hit then that's you as for me no I don't need the radar to see enemies on my screen period. Once sega gives me something to actually use the radar for that isn't enemies let me know maybe then i'll use it.

Im pretty sure you don't need me to bold those for ya unless your blind then I feel sorry for ya.

You can triple quote me till you hands fall off won't make a difference in what I said.

Also if that radar did tell me to scratch my back in all silliness I would do it for the lolz that's a nice memo there got anything else I lol at?

forbs
Apr 13, 2013, 08:01 PM
After reading this thread, I get the feeling that most of the people here don't know how to affix properly. As someone who affixes a lot, I've come to understand the system a lot better after trial and error and I have to say that it is not as random as people think. If you fail something like Attack III+Soul and end up spending 2 mil+ on a 2 slot, most likely you don't understand the affixing system well enough and didn't take the effort to do so.

I will agree that grinding can be bs a lot of time and relies heavily on luck but the affixing system is a lot more refined than grinding and a lot more predictable if you know what you're doing. The proof I have is this: Anyone can +10 a weapon given the right amount luck and meseta because the amount of skill and knowledge required to do so is minimal. There are cost cutting methods for grinding but will amount of nothing if you don't have luck. The same cannot be said for affixing because no amount of luck will get you say..4 proper affixes unless you know exactly what you're doing. Something standard like Power III+Vol+Stamina boost requires miniscule amounts of luck compared to the getting your weapon from +9 to +10 which is almost 100% luck reliant. Even with 30% grind success, you can fail multiple times.

Not that I have vendetta against anyone but I see that a lot of the complaints here are from people who don't have properly affixed equip to begin with which lead back the first point in this post. If you don't understand how the affixing system works, then you will see it as random bs and argue that it requires fixing. However if you do understand it, you will understand how simple and wonderful it is and Doodoo will do some pretty amazing things for you.

UnLucky
Apr 13, 2013, 08:18 PM
Yeah except forcing new slots with low end affixes is still entirely luck reliant, and then getting the Soul you want on three different items, as well as multiple Stat3's among them, even with boosted chances you can still easily be brought back to square one at each step.

Please tell me how you've "beat the system"

gigawuts
Apr 13, 2013, 08:55 PM
Ask me about: Failing quartz/power III/random, at 50/60/100 rates, 15 times in a row for a total of 8 million meseta and still not having the fodder unit :wacko:

MetalDude
Apr 13, 2013, 09:21 PM
You either dump money into getting Soul + Stat Up + Boost 100% for all three or you deal with shit chances. There's no in-between at all. 80/90/90 might as well be 40/40/40 for often it fails. Even on 2 slots, it's not uncommon see a best possible chance Soul + Stat Up continuously fail. It's infuriating.

forbs
Apr 13, 2013, 10:12 PM
Ask me about: Failing quartz/power III/random, at 50/60/100 rates, 15 times in a row for a total of 8 million meseta and still not having the fodder unit :wacko:
Maybe you should consider buying the fodder? They're around 500k each now. No one is forcing you to burn 8 mil when there are better options.


Yeah except forcing new slots with low end affixes is still entirely luck reliant, and then getting the Soul you want on three different items, as well as multiple Stat3's among them, even with boosted chances you can still easily be brought back to square one at each step.

Please tell me how you've "beat the system"
There's only so many times you can fail 3x 70%s. Even if your luck is terrible, it shouldn't cost you more than a mil to get to 3 slot. Unless of course you're doing it wrong. It has never costed me more than a mil to 3 slot and get the soul I want on anything. Heck, I've even taught a random b20 player how to 3 slot and it didn't cost him more than 2 mil to get Tech III/Wolga/Spirita boost. The only situation where your point is valid would be forcing a 4th slot since it's 4x 60%s but 4 slot is not something that should be so easy to achieve to begin with so that point is moot.

Based on experience, Doodoo is generally fair and averages out when it comes to affixing. If you want to complain about failing 2 80%s then the obvious answer would be to buy a 20%. If you don't want to take the chance making the fodder yourself, it's likely that someone is selling them at a lower price than you can make them for anyways. The fodder market on Ship 2 is very competitive.

UnLucky
Apr 13, 2013, 10:44 PM
There's only so many times you can fail a 34% chance, with 44% to make no progress, 19% chance to go backwards, and the final 3% chance to lose all progress. And then flip a coin to get your Soul on there, and multiply that for all your fodder, except flip another coin for each one that you want a Stat3 on. Any failed coin flip past the forced 3rd slot means you're back to forcing another slot.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 13, 2013, 11:00 PM
Maybe you should consider buying the fodder? They're around 500k each now. No one is forcing you to burn 8 mil when there are better options.


There's only so many times you can fail 3x 70%s. Even if your luck is terrible, it shouldn't cost you more than a mil to get to 3 slot. Unless of course you're doing it wrong. It has never costed me more than a mil to 3 slot and get the soul I want on anything. Heck, I've even taught a random b20 player how to 3 slot and it didn't cost him more than 2 mil to get Tech III/Wolga/Spirita boost. The only situation where your point is valid would be forcing a 4th slot since it's 4x 60%s but 4 slot is not something that should be so easy to achieve to begin with so that point is moot.

Based on experience, Doodoo is generally fair and averages out when it comes to affixing. If you want to complain about failing 2 80%s then the obvious answer would be to buy a 20%. If you don't want to take the chance making the fodder yourself, it's likely that someone is selling them at a lower price than you can make them for anyways. The fodder market on Ship 2 is very competitive.


Tell that to my wallet

forbs
Apr 13, 2013, 11:01 PM
As expected, there's no pointing reasoning with someone who doesn't know how to affix...you shouldn't even be taking a 34% to begin with. I'm done with this thread, you can all go whine and complain about it if you want. I'll be enjoying my properly affixed gear while you're at it.

gravityvx
Apr 13, 2013, 11:03 PM
Maybe you should consider buying the fodder? They're around 500k each now. No one is forcing you to burn 8 mil when there are better options.


You can set this mentality with anything in this game, it doesn't make the rng on them any less bullshit. You can buy a fully grinded weapon, the rng is still the same. You can buy a fully affixed weapon, the rng is still the same. You can buy the fodder for your own weapon, the rng is still the same. What most peoples point is, and what I think you seem to not get, is that unless you DO use the 20% chance ticket on an 80% chance affix, anything less is no better than a 20% chance affix.

Completely random bullshit. If you really think dudu is fair with affixes, I'm really not sure what else to say because affixing is far more a pain than grinding a weapon, at least with grinding you have protection(-1 tickets, full protect, % boosts), whereas affixing you have nothing but % boosts while fighting against rng and however many slots youre trying to get, and of course then there's getting them on after you get the amount of slots you want. I know very well how to affix my gear, but hey, I'd probably be far more likely to believe you if you showed me your decked out character in 4 slotted gear.

UnLucky
Apr 13, 2013, 11:04 PM
As expected, there's no pointing reasoning with someone who doesn't know how to affix...you shouldn't even be taking a 34% to begin with. I'm done with this thread, you can all go whine and complain about it if you want. I'll be enjoying my properly affixed gear while you're at it.

You shouldn't be taking a 70/70/70 ? That's a 34% chance for them all to succeed

Then how do you get three slots?

Buy them? Even 10*?

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 13, 2013, 11:09 PM
You shouldn't be taking a 70/70/70 ? That's a 34% chance for them all to succeed

Then how do you get three slots?

Buy them? Even 10*?

clearly we should be using 20%-30% boosters at all times.


cause you know...those aren't expensive /dont require 10 levels after capping/20 10* weapons >_>

MetalDude
Apr 13, 2013, 11:23 PM
It's true. Even taking 70/70/70 at face value (which we know it's bullshit, but let's be hypothetical), that's still a really awful chance. The %'s are a total lie and there's no "right" way to prevent them from dicking on you outside of trying to ensure 100%.

forbs
Apr 13, 2013, 11:27 PM
Completely random bullshit. If you really think dudu is fair with affixes, I'm really not sure what else to say because affixing is far more a pain than grinding a weapon, at least with grinding you have protection(-1 tickets, full protect, % boosts), whereas affixing you have nothing but % boosts while fighting against rng and however many slots youre trying to get, and of course then there's getting them on after you get the amount of slots you want. I know very well how to affix my gear, but hey, I'd probably be far more likely to believe you if you showed me your decked out character in 4 slotted gear.

At least you're being reasonable about it unlike the other posters so I will respond to this. I consistently 4 slot for the most part. Here is the proof that you wanted.

http://i.imgur.com/BUzQBvr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H5mGKLg.jpg


With this, I will say that doodoo is really fair on average if you know what you're doing which most of this forum does not.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 13, 2013, 11:29 PM
OH GREAT MASTER SHOW US THE WAY!!!

I WANT TO IGNORE STATISTICS LIKE YOU AND SAY MY MONEY/LUCK MAKES MY EXPERIENCE THE ONLY VALID ONE TOO!!!

Maronji
Apr 13, 2013, 11:30 PM
At least you're being reasonable about it unlike the other posters so I will respond to this. I consistently 4 slot for the most part. Here is the proof that you wanted.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/BUzQBvr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H5mGKLg.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

With this, I will say that doodoo is really fair on average if you know what you're doing which most of this forum does not.

Holy mother of--

And I thought this method of 3-slotting (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2886082&postcount=39) got pretty involved (heck, I sometimes have problems getting Stat IIs to stick sometimes). How the hell did you manage to pull that off?

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 13, 2013, 11:32 PM
someone buys a lots of 20% boosters and thinks that's the same thing as numbers being accurate.

that's all

gravityvx
Apr 13, 2013, 11:32 PM
Damn dude, that is pretty ridiculous. You've got my attention now, so tell me...how in the hell did you manage that, and at what cost(mainly speaking of the 4 slots themselves)?

forbs
Apr 13, 2013, 11:37 PM
But the numbers ARE accurate, 80% is more likely than not to pass on average. If you want to complain about rng, then maybe you shouldn't play PSO2? This game is practically filled with RNG from rare drops to grinding. Anyways I'm done here, I didn't post here to be ridiculed by the likes of you who don't understand how the system works.

UnLucky
Apr 13, 2013, 11:51 PM
I don't think YOU understand how the system works.

An 80%/80%/80%/80% affix success rate is a 41% chance for it all to work. 41% to lose a slot, 15% chance to lose two slots, 3% to lose three, and less than 1% to lose all of them.

More likely to pass on average? Sure, alright. The system is fair, stop complaining.

jiasu73
Apr 13, 2013, 11:55 PM
I believe forbs was addressing 80% by itself not 80/80/80/80 that is another situation all together.

MetalDude
Apr 14, 2013, 12:03 AM
I've seen way too many 70's-80's fail on their own to say that the odds are actually what they say, especially after playing many other games where statistically the number is in fact true. Hell, it seems to apply a lot to any high level affix or Soul in particular where as Stat Up I's will almost always succeed at the same exact odds.

And seriously, "likes of you"? Lay off the pretentious attitude.

gravityvx
Apr 14, 2013, 12:04 AM
But the numbers ARE accurate, 80% is more likely than not to pass on average. If you want to complain about rng, then maybe you shouldn't play PSO2? This game is practically filled with RNG from rare drops to grinding. Anyways I'm done here, I didn't post here to be ridiculed by the likes of you who don't understand how the system works.

But...my question...

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/Thatguyobliv/images-1.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/Thatguyobliv/media/images-1.jpg.html)

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 12:14 AM
Dude's just trolling.

Sirius-91
Apr 14, 2013, 12:21 AM
Dude's just trolling.

I really don't see how he's trolling, BUT OK.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 12:26 AM
have you ever even tried to make an item with 4 slots? the odds are abysmal under the best conditions.

To do that reliably you're either cheating, spending tons of money(real or in game) or not doing it reliably.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 12:33 AM
So whose King Vader stuff is that? Couldn't find it in the Accomplishments thread

Alisha
Apr 14, 2013, 12:34 AM
your doing it wrong

Sirius-91
Apr 14, 2013, 12:37 AM
have you ever even tried to make an item with 4 slots? the odds are abysmal under the best conditions.

To do that reliably you're either cheating, spending tons of money(real or in game) or not doing it reliably.

Not really, you either know how to 4 slot things, or you don't. Majority on here don't and that's something they'll have to live with.

For someone as yourself, what you don't know, you dismiss as being a troll. And that's cool, you could deny yourself of that knowledge.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 12:40 AM
Pretty sure you 4 slot things by forcing a 60/60/60/60 chance repeatedly until it sticks, or use a 20-30% booster each time until it sticks

Which, by the way, is 13% to succeed outright without a booster, and with otherwise 100% affixes.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 12:40 AM
look, smart guy.

since you don't even know what goes into making a 4 slot item, you're in no place to comment.

but since you're also trolling "oh I have no idea what goes into it but someone says it's easy and easy to replicate so everyone saying it's not much just be stupid"

Yeah, alright.



Pretty sure you 4 slot things by forcing a 60/60/60/60 chance repeatedly until it sticks, or use a 20-30% booster each time until it sticks

This is literally all you can do and it means throwing stuff onto that would normal have a 100% affix rate all the way down. So it either means a bunch of junk and then having to chance a slot/using a 20% to prep it. OR it means it has a few of the affixes you want on it already and are pumping those to 100% before forcing a slot using fodders with the same affixes.

I swear people just come in here to rile everyone else up.

Sirius-91
Apr 14, 2013, 12:45 AM
Pretty sure you 4 slot things by forcing a 60/60/60/60 chance repeatedly until it sticks, or use a 20-30% booster each time until it sticks

Why don't you check what is common between the affixes and take a guess what it would take to make them.

The percentages are pretty interesting once you figure it out.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 12:46 AM
this is hilarious. I dont think this guy even knows how to add slots

Sirius-91
Apr 14, 2013, 12:49 AM
this is hilarious. I dont think this guy even knows how to add slots

I don't think you know how to add slots. But that's ok. I guess we don;t know each other.

Syklo
Apr 14, 2013, 12:52 AM
Until someone fully affixes 8 slots, everyone will keep whining.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 12:55 AM
I don't think you know how to add slots. But that's ok. I guess we don;t know each other.


Since you're such a pro why not enlighten use then, huh?

Sirius-91
Apr 14, 2013, 12:59 AM
Since you're such a pro why not enlighten use then, huh?

Why bother, you're not in a mood to talk and neither am I. So we could continue the nonsense troll banter or just shut up and play.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 01:00 AM
You just gotta find the commonality and figure it out from there!!

Limbo_lag
Apr 14, 2013, 01:12 AM
Dude's just trolling.

Lol @ this thread. I admit I whine about affixing as much as the next guy, but I can assure you, he's not trolling.

Zenobia
Apr 14, 2013, 01:13 AM
At least you're being reasonable about it unlike the other posters so I will respond to this. I consistently 4 slot for the most part. Here is the proof that you wanted.

http://i.imgur.com/BUzQBvr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H5mGKLg.jpg


With this, I will say that doodoo is really fair on average if you know what you're doing which most of this forum does not.

Sorry guy pics such as this won't convince me AT ALL show me this with you in game with your character in the background maybe then I will believe you until now im just gonna say you might have pulled this on of jp uploader or something cause im not buying it not one bit.

Also I gotta say there are a lot of fucking dick riders riding this guys dick like a rodeo show you all must be his little bishies from how im reading these post.

Zenobia
Apr 14, 2013, 01:19 AM
Just check his shop. Some 4 slotters are on sale.

Fuck the shop I want I asked for.

Alisha
Apr 14, 2013, 01:20 AM
i know this guy personally and he does have those. in fact he made my units for me at cost.
http://i.imgur.com/zuYmOD0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8dGUcEr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wdQ4n8n.jpg

Zyrusticae
Apr 14, 2013, 01:21 AM
at cost.
How the fuck do you guys get that kind of money?!

Seriously. This is beyond me.

Sirius-91
Apr 14, 2013, 01:22 AM
Fuck the shop I want I asked for.

He's on my team. We're on ship 2. Check his shop or find him in-game, whatever floats your boat.

Zenobia
Apr 14, 2013, 01:23 AM
How the fuck do you guys get that kind of money?!

Seriously. This is beyond me.

Until I see some in game pics im calling bullshit now who is gonna be THAT person to do it step up or shut up.

Zenobia
Apr 14, 2013, 01:24 AM
He's on my team. We're on ship 2. Check his shop or find him in-game, whatever floats your boat.

IGN and block number stat.

Limbo_lag
Apr 14, 2013, 01:25 AM
find him in-game

^ @ Zenobia

Zenobia
Apr 14, 2013, 01:27 AM
^ @ Zenobia

No no no I want the block number he is on in ship 2 and I want his name period.

Alisha
Apr 14, 2013, 01:31 AM
http://i.minus.com/i2rXFC6TDzoU3.png

Zenobia
Apr 14, 2013, 01:32 AM
http://i.minus.com/i2rXFC6TDzoU3.png

Good shit you're legit now where is he on said ship and what is this person's SAID NAME?

jiasu73
Apr 14, 2013, 01:43 AM
I have 4 slot affixes my self and yes it can be expensive but now a days due to deflation and AQ it is a lot less costly then before and much more doable. From my experience i would say that the %s are pretty accurate but this is from my viewpoint only. I suppose most people here are failing more than they think they should be?


[SPOILER-BOX]
http://i.imgur.com/AC23XQ0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h2vEogx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7gWLbYY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RLUftRz.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Zenobia
Apr 14, 2013, 01:48 AM
So yeah this guy who posted his Vardha gear yeah just checked him out....guy's legit straight up not blowing smoke either so yeah the verdict is in.

.Jack
Apr 14, 2013, 02:05 AM
Sorry guy pics such as this won't convince me AT ALL show me this with you in game with your character in the background maybe then I will believe you until now im just gonna say you might have pulled this on of jp uploader or something cause im not buying it not one bit.

Also I gotta say there are a lot of fucking dick riders riding this guys dick like a rodeo show you all must be his little bishies from how im reading these post.

That set i'm guessing would cost, what? 50-100 mill to make?

100mill nowadays is not very impressive, imo.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 02:12 AM
No one said he was lying about having them, we said it's not easy as in it can take quite a few tries to make and requires stupid amounts of money. (50-100 mil is a stupid amount of money, yes)

an 80/80/80/80 is statistically only a 41% chance and that's just the setup that means 3 out of 5 times you will not get 4 slots and may not even have 3 slots when you're done.. you can't even get an 80/80/80/80 without blowing cash on a 20% booster. if you don't use a booster though it's only a 13% chance of success. if the stats are to be trusted.


so after you get your 4 slot you have to affix a soul which is only a 50% chance of success. if it fails you need to go for a 4th slot again.

once you get your soul you still have to do you other affixes and this speaks nothing to the fodders which are actually harder to make than the finished product.

THATs why we're calling bullshit.

so unless someone here has a magic trick they wanna pull out of their ass, I dont care what kind of gear you have, you either got lucky or bought that shit.

Boney010
Apr 14, 2013, 02:32 AM
I don't understand the outrage here. Japanese players do it all the time. Ya'll just jelly. He's a god among us PSO2 players and you only insult him. He might even be able to give pointers to us lowly players, but now, I think we blew our chance. Thanks, guys, he was our gateway to reach a higher level gaming and you blew it.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 02:43 AM
No, he said there was a trick that he wasn't going to mention, and that we don't understand plain statistics or obvious game mechanics.

It's pretty clear-cut, you just have to have luck and not do obviously dumb stuff like try to add a slot to a Soul+Stat3+Ability3.

Boney010
Apr 14, 2013, 02:47 AM
It's a secret every asian knows, except for us english players because we're a bunch of dumbasses.

.Jack
Apr 14, 2013, 02:50 AM
THATs why we're calling bullshit.

If people learn how to properly affix things and have an idea of an average cost of making something, I'm sure that would change their perspective.

I'm in the minority of people that don't find this to be an issue I guess.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 02:52 AM
learn how to 13% properly

.Jack
Apr 14, 2013, 03:07 AM
No, he said there was a trick that he wasn't going to mention, and that we don't understand plain statistics or obvious game mechanics.

Can you point out where this was said? I don't see it and I'll try to explain it (whatever that is).

Zenobia
Apr 14, 2013, 03:16 AM
That set i'm guessing would cost, what? 50-100 mill to make?

100mill nowadays is not very impressive, imo.

I dunno how much it costed him honestly if he has the money to blow like that then hey that's his playing field not mine mah friend lol.

Shadowth117
Apr 14, 2013, 03:22 AM
No one said he was lying about having them, we said it's not easy as in it can take quite a few tries to make and requires stupid amounts of money. (50-100 mil is a stupid amount of money, yes)

an 80/80/80/80 is statistically only a 41% chance and that's just the setup that means 3 out of 5 times you will not get 4 slots and may not even have 3 slots when you're done.. you can't even get an 80/80/80/80 without blowing cash on a 20% booster. if you don't use a booster though it's only a 13% chance of success. if the stats are to be trusted.


so after you get your 4 slot you have to affix a soul which is only a 50% chance of success. if it fails you need to go for a 4th slot again.

once you get your soul you still have to do you other affixes and this speaks nothing to the fodders which are actually harder to make than the finished product.

THATs why we're calling bullshit.

so unless someone here has a magic trick they wanna pull out of their ass, I dont care what kind of gear you have, you either got lucky or bought that shit.

I like how you're more bothered by the 4 affix part than the vardha unit part but okay.

Getting to 4slot is more of a test of patience than anything else, even if you use boosters. It would take forever, but its not impossible. Especially so if you have the money.

So basically, once you pass the 100, 100, 100, 50 to get the soul on, or boosted chance as you may have, you can use fodder to get 100, 100, 100, 80 for what he had. Ability 3 is really the only wildcard. Hell you could even do 100, 100, 100, 90, but eh.

So here's what we're gonna do.

Tech III 4s x 32 * .900 = 28.80 mil
Power III 4s x 16 * .700 = 11.20 mil
Shoot III 4s x 16 * .700 = 11.20 mil
Elder Soul 4s x 32 * .060 = 1.492 mil

20% booster x 28 * .850 = 23.80 mil
Stamina boost x 4 * .525 = 2.100 mil

Section total: 78.592

Non slot expansion affixing fees:

normal units 0.0085 * 24 = 0.204 mil
10* units 0.0296 * 4 = 0.1184 mil

Section total: 0.3224 mil

Project total: 78.4144 mil


Alright now let me explain where these wacky numbers come from. Statistically, this method of 4s affixing with ability 3 will require around 1 extra attempt for every 5 because of the final ability 3 80% so I'm going to be lenient and assume that fails once.

Anyways, first you would be getting a number of tech 3 + atk 3 units for this method. To do this, you would take one tech 3 and one atk3 unit and fuse them with a 20% booster. This will give you 80, 80, 100, 100 for a 64% chance. You will do this 24 times total and, since we're being theoretical, assuming that 64% is a 50% chance even though its not.

After this step, you should have 8 tech 3 power 3 4s and 8 tech 3 shoot 3 units. We're going to fuse these with elder soul 4s units with a 20% booster which will give you 80, 80, 100, 70 and have an overall 44.8% success rate. We're going to give it the benefit of a doubt for this exercise and assume that's really 50% which is fair to me since the other was lowered so drastically.

So now we're gonna say you have 4 sets to attempt putting the 4 slot affixes on with and that the target units have their souls already. This final affixing attempt with a 20% booster will give you a 100, 80, 100, 100 rate for an overall 80% flat. Statistically speaking, its actually in your favor for all 3 to go through without failure.


Oh and for the record, most of these things can be gotten for way lower generally, especially if you don't get them all at once or if you pick off the ones people sell for stupidly low. So material costs can be way down from those inflated ones I showed (inflated based on most ship 2 prices for said items anyway).


As for getting to 4s and getting the soul on, that's very random, but if you had average luck and used boosters on 2-3s and 3-4s... 80% 0-1s 49% 1-2 51.2% 2-3 24.01% 3-4.

So by that logic, you'd want to try 20 times from nothing. 16 of your tries would get to 1s more than likely, about 8 of your tries would get to 2s from here, 4 tries would get to 3s, and 1 of these tries would get o 4s. 29.6k x 20 would be 592k and 12 attempts with 20% boosters would be around 6.3 mil for 6.892 mil total. Of course, this could clearly vary a shitton based on various factors, but that's why I didn't include it in the total. For most units, you'd also have the option to buy them 4s anyway which reduces the cost of things drastiaclly.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 03:23 AM
Why should I be bothered by the king units? Fo/Te can easily equip them and they're meant for forces. o_O

Shadowth117
Apr 14, 2013, 03:31 AM
Why should I be bothered by the king units? Fo/Te can easily equip them and they're meant for forces. o_O

Almost no one can equip them because you'd need to somehow put lots of points into Tdef, very dumb in the first place given the crappy unit bonus. The fact that they are what they are is also the only reason they're even remotely annoying to 4s affix as well. Which is part of what I'd thought your original argument was since you can't easily buy a 4s variant of them.

I think for some reason I was misconceiving that he had meant he was wearing those units rather than selling them, but eh.

Boney010
Apr 14, 2013, 03:32 AM
No amount of schooling is going to get him to asian level gaming. You're wasting your breath, Shadowth117.

.Jack
Apr 14, 2013, 03:36 AM
I dunno how much it costed him honestly if he has the money to blow like that then hey that's his playing field not mine mah friend lol.

I don't know the price of those armors but I can estimate that any 3-piece set can be easily made for around 50mill for those 4 affixes.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 03:41 AM
Almost no one can equip them because you'd need to somehow put lots of points into Tdef, very dumb in the first place given the crappy unit bonus. The fact that they are what they are is also the only reason they're even remotely annoying to 4s affix as well. Which is part of what I'd thought your original argument was since you can't easily buy a 4s variant of them.

I think for some reason I was misconceiving that he had meant he was wearing those units rather than selling them, but eh.

Sub techer. Techer dumps 5 points into T def just to get PP convert. they have a lot of free SP. Whats 5 more? what else are you going to put them in? Shifta advance?

That's what I thought =/

Fo/Te can equip those units easily. You're looking at this as a Fo/Fi.

And no the issue is that someone throwing a 4 slot out there like it means anything more than they got lucky/spent a crap ton of meseta is stupid.

And yes 50-100 mil for 45 extra attack/def is too goddamned much I can play for 200 hours and not get a damned thing worth selling. so am i going to do scratches and trade my real money for ingame money? This whole argument has been that the current affixing and grinding RNG basically boils down to amazing luck or spending absurd amounts of currency, be it in game or otherwise to circumvent the bad odds.

All you trolls are saying is "herp derp it's totally possible if you spend a ton of money which you had to get lucky as hell or spend real money to get anyway".

jooozek
Apr 14, 2013, 03:45 AM
so basically
the only people who are okay with this shitty system
are people who make shitloads of meseta on it
because people are so desperate that they will pay up anyway
no matter whats the cost
i can see why you wouldn't any changes to the system
it would kill all the free meseta for you

Boney010
Apr 14, 2013, 03:45 AM
Are you calling him stupid for putting up 4s King units?

Sirius-91
Apr 14, 2013, 03:46 AM
And no the issue is that someone throwing a 4 slot out there like it means anything more than they got lucky/spent a crap ton of meseta is stupid.

Thing is though, they costed less than what you think they costed, aside from materials that were made in the process of making the 4 slots, the total cost is very low. Something of which my team mate is able to mass produce.

jiasu73
Apr 14, 2013, 03:46 AM
I don't know the price of those armors but I can estimate that any 3-piece set can be easily made for around 50mill for those 4 affixes.

Yes this is about the cost it took to make mine as well, while having a fair number of fails developing my final fodders/ adding slots.

Sirius-91
Apr 14, 2013, 03:49 AM
so basically
the only people who are okay with this shitty system
are people who make shitloads of meseta on it
because people are so desperate that they will pay up anyway
no matter whats the cost
i can see why you wouldn't any changes to the system
it would kill all the free meseta for you

Nah, not at all, would probably make it easier to 5+ slot things if it were changed. Though, I'll admit that it is very profitable to do 4slot while the current standard is 3 slot. A leak in the right spot can hurt the economy and demolish the income of some people. But sooner or later, someone will crack and spill the beans on how to do them...

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 03:50 AM
Are you calling him stupid for putting up 4s King units?

I'm calling anyone stupid who thinks those units mean anything more than "I got lucky" or " I have too much meseta"

.Jack
Apr 14, 2013, 04:09 AM
so basically
the only people who are okay with this shitty system
are people who make shitloads of meseta on it
because people are so desperate that they will pay up anyway
no matter whats the cost
i can see why you wouldn't any changes to the system
it would kill all the free meseta for you

Yes, that is pretty much it.

Ignorance in the affixing system = this thread.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 04:15 AM
Almost no one can equip them because you'd need to somehow put lots of points into Tdef

Totally gimp build sacrificing so much just to equip the unit set with the highest S-Def, HP, and Atk. (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04uDb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikjcv7zIbI n0000009b00000ib00000ib00007b000008kbdqIbfdFI2J24Q wfb0000)


Nah, not at all, would probably make it easier to 5+ slot things if it were changed. Though, I'll admit that it is very profitable to do 4slot while the current standard is 3 slot. A leak in the right spot can hurt the economy and demolish the income of some people. But sooner or later, someone will crack and spill the beans on how to do them...

Huge secret to have a large enough capital to average out costs.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 04:17 AM
Totally gimp build sacrificing so much just to equip the unit set with the highest S-Def, HP, and Atk. (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04uDb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikjcv7zIbI n0000009b00000ib00000ib00007b000008kbdqIbfdFI2J24Q wfb0000)

That looks familiar xD

And yeah...totally gimp...totally...>_>


Sad troll attempt


Explain to me then how anyone could do it without getting lucky or using 20% boosters every step and getting less lucky.

It's cool i'll wait

Shadowth117
Apr 14, 2013, 05:28 AM
That looks familiar xD

And yeah...totally gimp...totally...>_>




Explain to me then how anyone could do it without getting lucky or using 20% boosters every step and getting less lucky.

It's cool i'll wait

That could build is *okay* assuming you don't plan on using dark mastery for example which is very useful since its possible to outdamage a fighter sub's dark techniques that way. It would be fine for a fire build I guess.

As for the "luck", its really all percentages. They go about how you'd expect over a long period with occasional deviations, good or bad. You can easily get most of the materials needed to create these things far cheaper than my example as I specifically said. If you're really cheap, shop camping works wonders since you can get amazing things for under 10k at times. Not to mention people often list things like double atk lv3 4s units for the price of a single atk lv3 4s unit which can save loads.

20% boosters are also only 525k on Ship 2 as of the last time I checked which is the most affordable they've ever been as I recall. If you use them intelligently, they give you a far better chance of getting the job done than otherwise.

And yeah, 4 slot units are expensive. 3 slot is expensive for many. Whether you call this having "too much meseta" or not though is really a matter of opinion. Its more than possible for it to be done relatively cheap despite what some have a tendency to believe. If you're thinking you want to do a full 4s set of *good* affixes for under 10 mil though you may be rather hard-pressed.

Alisha
Apr 14, 2013, 05:41 AM
if you can make a 3 slot unit its trivial to add a 4th via an item.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 05:55 AM
That could build is *okay* assuming you don't plan on using dark mastery for example which is very useful since its possible to outdamage a fighter sub's dark techniques that way. It would be fine for a fire build I guess.

You won't even miss that Wand Gear, I promise. (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04uDb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikjcv7zIbI n0000009b00000ib00000ib00007b000008kb6dFI2J2qxmo00 00f)

Goukezitsu
Apr 14, 2013, 06:32 AM
I dunno. I feel like this thread is basically the people who know how to affix and the ones who don't. The ones who figured it out think its fair and average (because it is) and the ones who haven't think its astronomically hard. Forbs and others that see this are completely right.

Here's a test if you are doing it right:

this is 10* common armor (vardha ragne etc)

3x Slotted armor (soul boost stat III) can be attempted for a little as 300-680k (market fluxuation and type of armor) and made for as little as 714k-1.6M to be resold for 2.5-3.3M

4x Slotted armor (Soul boost ability III stat III) can be attempted for as little as 2-3M (market fluxuation and type of armor)
and made for as little as 4.46M-6.7M to be resold for 13-17M

and this is buying parts available to you from market place and not other methods used. If using other methods you can cut cost down to baseline materials.

If that's how much you can do it for, then you pass. If you cant do that then you don't know how affixing works in all its facets and you don't trust the statistics that sit right in front of you. I promise you. I'm using real math and I'm using the real probabilities that you guys are talking about. Me and the others that agree its average are just being a little smarter with the methods to cut cost on average.

There's a TON of ways of getting around making complicated 100 100 100 80 fodder that are massively cheaper. Just keep exploring those ways and you'll figure it out I promise.

I made these for less than the cost of 1 of those pieces.
http://imgur.com/yqQIp2c

and they do sell
http://imgur.com/zzk9ldS

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 14, 2013, 06:40 AM
...I swear people keep overlooking the meseta part here.

No one is saying it can't be done. We're saying the cost and risk/reward ratio is bad.

3.3 mil is also too expensive.

personally I can do a 3 slot with soul stat III and whatever the hell I want for under 1 mil but I still think its too expensive.

The issue is a 4 slot doesn't get you much more, it really doesn't. But it costs much more to make.

Now you guys either follow along or stop trolling. That's what you're doing every time you tell some they don't know what they're doing just 'cause they dont like the system.

gigawuts
Apr 14, 2013, 07:19 AM
Maybe you should consider buying the fodder? They're around 500k each now. No one is forcing you to burn 8 mil when there are better options.

This was a few months ago when there were literally no fodders available on the entire market, for upwards of a week before I even attempted.

You think I don't know how chance-based systems work? I know exactly how they work. Why do you think I'm so against them?

BIG OLAF
Apr 14, 2013, 07:29 AM
There's only so many times you can fail 3x 70%s. Even if your luck is terrible, it shouldn't cost you more than a mil to get to 3 slot.....Based on experience, Doodoo is generally fair and averages out when it comes to affixing.

You really don't know the definition of the words 'random' or 'chance', do you?

Limbo_lag
Apr 14, 2013, 07:48 AM
Now you guys either follow along or stop trolling. That's what you're doing every time you tell some they don't know what they're doing just 'cause they dont like the system.

Disagreement =/= trolling. This isn't the SWTOR forums.

He just knows the best ways of maximizing his chances whilst minimizing his costs.

Sooner or later the affixes will stick. Do it enough times and you'll see that generally it balances out. You'll have (sometimes giant) streaks of failures sure, but you'll also have the odd miracles occuring from time to time.

Rng works both ways.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 07:49 AM
No, they know. They know how to retry 30% odds and back to back coin flips that have to all succeed in a row. They "get" it. We don't. That's why we complain about 30% odds and having to win successive coin flips. It's perfectly fine, actually, so long as you understand how it works. Which we have no clue.

Saffran
Apr 14, 2013, 07:49 AM
You know, without even taking sides in the debate, I've just realized I don't play the same game as you guys. 78m MST? Good lord...

gigawuts
Apr 14, 2013, 07:51 AM
As someone who has +10'd a 10* with 0 failiures (latria rain that I wasn't even hunting), and had tremendous streaks of failures with both affixing and grinding...

The RNG is bullshit. Average is bullshit. You know who sticks to the average? A minority of players. Most are above it or below it at any given time. They may flip from one to the other, but they're basically never going to be near the average.

The streaks are enormous. There is zero way to tell if you're in one or not. You cannot influence success in any way besides increasing odds - and that seems pretty futile since if you're going to keep failing you're just going to keep failing.

There is never a guarantee you will succeed. Ever. If the odds are 30% to succeed, you can fail five billion tries, and you know what? Your next try is still just 30% chance of success.

A system that can be positively influenced by either skill or correcting a streak of failures would be far preferable to this.

edit: And, of course, when I'm talking about success not being guaranteed I'm not referring to 100%'s. I'm referring to things like fodder creation, slot expansion, etc.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 07:53 AM
But people who suck at skill based upgrading systems will complain.

Like in EQ

Or you end up with different ways to roll the RNG, one of which is usually the best anyway, like in FFXIV

forbs
Apr 14, 2013, 07:57 AM
Geez, if you hate randomness and chance that much then maybe you should stop playing PSO2? iirc, basically the entire game is based on rare drops which is..wait for it...RANDOM *GASP* Maybe you should tell sega that you deserve a Dragon slayer just because you ran Isles AQ 1000 times and killed 100 Draals? Yea..no...not going to happen in a JPN RPG.

@Sociable, I'm sure you got your Elysion through hard work and totally not luck! Because you don't like randomness right? Because if you got lucky, I guess you don't deserve it. :-?

Seems like the initial point of my post was lost because of all the trolling done here. The affixing system has random factors but they are MUCH milder than grinding. If you fail to see this, then you don't understand it well enough. If you want to keep denying it and not learn how to properly affix then I guess you don't deserve good equip. Also, FYI, I can equip King units with only 5 pts in T-def up. My trees are in no way gimp and my T-attack without buffs/drink is well over 2k so you can stop trolling now.

Limbo_lag
Apr 14, 2013, 08:02 AM
As someone who has +10'd a 10* with 0 failiures (latria rain that I wasn't even hunting), and had tremendous streaks of failures with both affixing and grinding...

The RNG is bullshit. Average is bullshit. You know who sticks to the average? A minority of players. Most are above it or below it at any given time. They may flip from one to the other, but they're basically never going to be near the average.

The streaks are enormous. There is zero way to tell if you're in one or not. You cannot influence success in any way besides increasing odds - and that seems pretty futile since if you're going to keep failing you're just going to keep failing.

There is never a guarantee you will succeed. Ever. If the odds are 30% to succeed, you can fail five billion tries, and you know what? Your next try is still just 30% chance of success.

A system that can be positively influenced by either skill or correcting a streak of failures would be far preferable to this.

edit: And, of course, when I'm talking about success not being guaranteed I'm not referring to 100%'s. I'm referring to things like fodder creation, slot expansion, etc.

Not entirely. If you had infinite resources and affixed something with a 70% chance an infinite number of times, 70% of those would succeed.

However, since we are talking finite tries here, you could very well have all your tries fail. The more times you do it, however, the less likely it would be to occur repeatedly - the more you do it, the closer you get to the average.

gigawuts
Apr 14, 2013, 08:06 AM
They could easily create a system where instead of random odds, you have progression to levels of affixes without potential for failure - with the cash items boosting the progress to successive levels significantly.

Remove the chance for failure on most things. Shift everything towards an average cost. You know how souls boost certain affix success rates? They now boost progress towards certain affix levels. Souls are the only thing left on a chance-based system. Failing a soul will collapse it to a husk of that soul, which grants a tiny 5% boost to future attempts on that soul - and can stack failures. After 10 failures the boost would be 50%, meaning 100% success with 2x input on the fodder.

Then still allow 2 fodders, and have what's already on a weapon get a bonus for boosting things. All things of the same stat boost themselves a bit, especially their own level. So power I = 5% boost to all power, but 35% to power I. Power III = 15% to all power, but 35% to power III. Power IV = 20% to all power, but 25% to power IV. Spirita/Stamina boost items still always have instant success. Power I still has instant success, no combination required. Multiple copies of affixes would still be needed for high progress towards the next or that level.

Making a soul/stat III/boost then basically doesn't change. a 20% booster is still required for 100% success. You still need 3 of the soul for 80% chance, you still benefit from smart combinations, you still need 2x stat III for a base 80% chance, etc. You still expand the slots, but instead of having a chance you just outright buy the expansion.

I've just described something 100x more interesting and fun than what we have now that does not lose slots when you fail - it just downgrades the affix or gives you a slot without a stat bonus but contributes to future attempts.

Oh, and the penalty for not reaching a level would be reverting to the previous stat level. If you're at 80% to power I, you just get power I. Yes. How would you reach that? Well, taking two power I's wouldn't be enough for power II outright. A boost of some kind, maybe a soul or a 20% booster, would bring you to power II. The 20% booster is obviously not cost effective, but the soul would give you a bump of let's say +60% - bringing you to 40% to stat III. That's power II. Obviously the system's numbers would differ from what we have now.

edit:

Not entirely. If you had infinite resources and affixed something with a 70% chance an infinite number of times, 70% of those should succeed.

However, since we are talking finite tries here, you could very well have all your tries fail. The more times you do it, however, the less likely it would be to occur repeatedly - the more you do it, the closer you should get to the average.

fixed your post

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 08:06 AM
Seems like the initial point of my post was lost because of all the trolling done here. The affixing system has random factors but they are MUCH milder than grinding. If you fail to see this, then you don't understand it well enough. If you want to keep denying it and not learn how to properly affix then I guess you don't deserve good equip. Also, FYI, I can equip King units with only 5 pts in T-def up. My trees are in no way gimp and my T-attack without buffs/drink is well over 2k so you can stop trolling now.Well let's see you properly affix an 8 slot item, then I'll ask you to teach me how you beat the system with your true understanding and luck.

Limbo_lag
Apr 14, 2013, 08:10 AM
Well let's see you properly affix an 8 slot item, then I'll ask you to teach me how you beat the system with your true understanding and luck.

The highest one can feasibly go up to atm is probably 5. Why they allowed 8 affixes when most people can only manage 2-4 is beyond me.



fixed your post

What is infinity? Although I do like your suggestion and agree that it would alleviate a lot of frustration with the system.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 08:11 AM
No, clearly the system is fine and balanced and averages out, so I don't see why he can't just slot something properly since he knows how to do it correctly.

And we don't.

Limbo_lag
Apr 14, 2013, 08:18 AM
so I don't see why he can't just slot something properly since he knows how to do it correctly.


Well....he did :-?

Though %'s for adding slots 4 and above could be improved, I agree fully with that.

UnLucky
Apr 14, 2013, 08:20 AM
Please forbs, get me a 7 slot set with Wolga Soul, Tech IV, Ability IV, Stamina IV, Spirita IV, Spirita Boost, Mutation

That's not even the best thing possible, so it should be easy enough for you, the master of affixing, keeper of secrets.

Limbo_lag
Apr 14, 2013, 08:23 AM
Kinda missing the point here...

Zipzo
Apr 14, 2013, 08:24 AM
Well let's see you properly affix an 8 slot item, then I'll ask you to teach me how you beat the system with your true understanding and luck.

You keep on plugging away at this sentiment but its not going to strike gold anywhere because you're missing the point.

The original person who you're referring to with these posts never said complete enlightenment of the system meant failure never crosses his path, simply that chances of success weren't being maximized simply on account of avoidable factors (like not raising enough money each try, doing half-budget tries).

It's not that people who go against those that complain about RNG would suck at a skilled based system, that's not it at all. In fact that's a pretty gigantic leap of logic, it's that we *accept* the RNG system for what it is and do what we can to overcome it, where folks like you or socio or Giga think its an abhorrent creation of human intention and thinking its fine is a sin of gaming.

Forves had a good point, if you hate so many of the systems this game puts forth...why do you play it? Don't tell me it's because the combat is deep and intuitive.

Also there needs to be an auto-suspend hammer on folks who constantly feel the need to accuse everyone one of trolling simply because they are disagreed with. It's wasteful effort on your part to bother saying it and adds nothing.

Everyone here is a person with an opinion. We can all stop thinking any of us are better than the other at logic simply because these opinions are different.

Limbo_lag
Apr 14, 2013, 08:26 AM
^Thank you. Could not have worded it better myself.

gigawuts
Apr 14, 2013, 08:27 AM
Zipzo you gotta stop saying other people are doing things and then doing them yourself. This time it's leaps of logic. Why do you think nobody ever, ever, ever takes you seriously?

Why would I or anyone else ever give you even as much as a half hearted discussion when you do shit like that?

Zipzo
Apr 14, 2013, 08:29 AM
Zipzo you gotta stop saying other people are doing things and then doing them yourself. This time it's leaps of logic. Why do you think nobody ever, ever, ever takes you seriously?

Why would I or anyone else ever give you even as much as a half hearted discussion when you do shit like that?

This is what I'm talking about.

What exactly are you trying to achieve with these words if not simply to troll? Stay on topic please. Plus just because you don't take me seriously doesn't mean everybody doesn't. Didn't you get told to chill out and converse without inciting arguments?