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View Full Version : PSO2 ITT I give every skill tree a -Total Makeover-



UnLucky
Apr 20, 2013, 12:39 PM
Totally just leaked from a reliable source I swear

I was really bored today waiting for Dark Falz to not show up so I made my own balance fixes and skill tree cleanups that Sega will never do.

Mostly separating static stat skills and removing SP scaling, but I tossed in some ideas I've had/seen too.

Hunter
http://i.imgur.com/fKQOlQa.png
"Fury" Combo that makes sense, penalty removed from Guard Stance, and the worthless status ailment guards all rolled up into one skill. Hefty penalty on Fury, too.

Eased up SP sinks for Just Guard and Step Attack, plus anyone subbing Hunter can't skip essential Hunter skills in order to get more mileage out of the tree than a Hunter main. You can now get one or more defensive abilities without being totally gimp![/SPOILER-BOX]

Fighter
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/t0TwE7b.png
Slayer skills made useful hopefully. What it means is that, at lv1 Deadline, you get no bonus until you are under 10% of your max HP, from 101% damage at 9% HP to 109% at 1%. Maxed DS and you'll get at least 101% any time you're not at full health, up to nearly double damage when nearly dead.

PP Slayer gets better with a higher max PP, so if you get 160 from units and skills, then a PA leaving you at 0PP means 260% damage. Only 116% with lv1 PPS, however.

Stances reduce the penalty as they level up, but Stance Ups provide more of a damage boost.

And big jumps! Too bad it doesn't increase how far your PAs lift you, though. I kind of blanked out thinking of something useful for Daggers.[/SPOILER-BOX]

Ranger
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/Az1DlUW.png
New Shot Mastery provides extra bullets for every debuff shot except Stun Grenade which is always unlimited.

Tool Mastery allows up to 20 of each trap to be held! Wow! Amazing! Well, traps should be better, with double damage on Upper and double status infliction on Poison, plus stat scaling for the both of them.[/SPOILER-BOX]

Gunner
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/Fv0yHeg.png
lmao where are gunner skills go?

*ahem* Accessible Showtime (is it worth the SP?), and Aerial Advance that makes sense.[/SPOILER-BOX]

Force
[SPOILER-BOX][S]http://i.imgur.com/3Frs113.png
http://i.imgur.com/eFp9ocU.png
Obviously I had more ideas for these guys. Useful (perhaps) status boosters and passives. Burn spreads more, Freeze Ignite is now a passive damage boost to frozen enemies (you can use any weapon, PA, or Technic to get the one time bonus per freeze effect, which obviously breaks on damage), and Shocked enemies hurt themselves if the status prevents their attack.

The Ice modifier is along the same lines as Flame/Bolt which doubles their effectiveness in different ways. This will make Gi/Ra/Sabarta stay out twice as long and hit twice as much over time (basically the animation plays twice back-to-back off of one cast when maxed). Probably also give Deband up to 8 ticks, too. Dunno what to do for Barta... larger hitbox? Shotgun Ice?

But my favorite is PHOTON FLARE! Basically the new Fury Stance, but cranked up to eleven but fizzles out quickly. Further levels in PF only increase the duration, whereas PFA increases your damage and reduces the penalty. Photon Burst isn't just a secondary and inferior PF, but rather an entirely different beast with a unique penalty. Whatever PP you had before you trigger PFAB is all you'll get for the next 30s no matter what you try. If you can't handle taking extra damage, maybe you shouldn't have popped a (90s) 60s liability that you can't cancel without gimping yourself in some other way. Letting PF run out won't trigger the Burst.

Oh yeah, and (600%) 400% uncharged tech damage because why not. They're still not very good because the range, area, and number of attacks are still reduced. Some techs that hit only once even when charged will get the most use out of this skill, but you still have to watch your casting animation and eat the high PP cost. Also you have to take PP Charge and Charge Advance anyway so suck it.[/SPOILER-BOX]

Techer
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/wk0Mbok.png
Techer elements with cool abilities?? That's right, you can now cast Zan, warp to your target, and then bash its head in with a full Gear Gauge.

Take over your enemies' minds as they rip apart the victim of your choosing, including forced suicide.

And Poison Ignite... Well it's a 1SP skill now, and triggers multiple enemies from a larger distance. Still bad? I'd like to see for myself.

Wind Assault makes Zan hit the same target up to 12(!) times, and might make Gizan worth something (haha). Sazan doesn't last any longer, it just hits more for its duration, but maybe the damage would be there. Definitely has a use for breaking boulders and flipping switches, at least.

Dark techs like (Sa)Megid fly faster and turn sharper, and Gimegid starts sooner (imagine like when it was bugged, only it doesn't do it twice).

Extra damage boost for Wand melee, since the dinky explosion doesn't make it better than any other weapon except for style or some silly reasoning. Plus a hybrid class eats twice as many enemy Def stats and has to split their damage somewhere so this only really evens it out.

Attack PP Revival will allow a Techer on its own to regain PP while casting Technics! Or any other non-Force subbing Techer to make use of Techer's PP skills during everyday use. Coupling with Force's PP Charge Revival means even more PP regenability.

TB is now passive, yeah. When maxed it doubles your support range. Shifta/Deband Advance are combined into one AND doubled in effectiveness. Maybe now the buffs will be worth applying (40% base stats could be good). Shifta Crit now increases the damage of crits instead of the frequency. And Extend Assist is what it always should have been. With 1SP, you get the previous full buff with only 3 ticks, but waiting for all 4 gives you an extra 15s over vanilla. lv3 is double the old value per tick, and maxed is 65s with a max duration of 3.5m.[/SPOILER-BOX]

Zorafim
Apr 20, 2013, 12:50 PM
...

Wow. I'd play your game.

NoiseHERO
Apr 20, 2013, 01:07 PM
/see's wishlist instead of what thread promised

/walks back out thread disappointed

Tenlade
Apr 20, 2013, 01:11 PM
I love how these charts just make out how pathetically small gunner's skill tree is. Sega really didn't put any effort into that class.

and skills that aren't pure number increases/decreases? What is this madness?

Valkyrie Lovrina
Apr 20, 2013, 01:18 PM
Seeing this thread title. I immediately thought $egac actually was actually gonna make revisions of the Class's. by revision's, I meant canning the Main and Sub Class Idea, make each class there own while bringing back Weapon Type Extend from, Portable 2/Infinity.

/dissapointed and you got my hopes up. :(

Kilich
Apr 20, 2013, 01:26 PM
Weak Bullet is still 2-3x damage? Why not make it into a weak point bullet, like it says on the tin?

Also, wow, those Force changes. Just why?

NoiseHERO
Apr 20, 2013, 01:29 PM
Weak Bullet is still 2-3x damage? Why not make it into a weak point bullet, like it says on the tin?

Also, wow, those Force changes. Just why?

Now... before you continue, you look like you're ready to scrap right now...

These aren't real changes.. D:

So just make your own... D:

ShinMaruku
Apr 20, 2013, 01:31 PM
I'd give photon flare chaining similar to chain finish and chaining in psp2i where you ramp up hits and with a good solid hit you just get a massvie crits. That's what the fuck I'd do to photon flare. Wand Gear, I'd use the charges to make instant cast techs have the same damage as the charged ones.

Kilich
Apr 20, 2013, 01:32 PM
I know they are not real. But I'm too lazy to make my own revisions with the same quality.

Zenobia
Apr 20, 2013, 03:03 PM
Bad ass Skill Table Chart so much SP I could save up the ultimate HU/FI tree I could build hell yes.....but nos Segac will always be Segac.

Broken_L_button
Apr 20, 2013, 03:29 PM
I cried tears of joy...Until I realized I had a better chance at getting a psycho wand to +10 and potential level 3 with only grinders and meseta than ever seeing SEGA do this (or something close to that).

Putting skills that are actually relevant to each other together is the main act of balancing most trees need. Especially techer tree.

Shinmarizu
Apr 20, 2013, 03:52 PM
If only.... oh, if only this was real. I've been discussing the streamlining of these pathetically designed trees with friends for awhile.

Will Sega actually smarten up and take such an approach?

......*looks at the Psycho Wand above*

......Nope. What Sega will do is simply throw new skills under existing skills, require 5 SP to unlock, and need 10 SP to get any real benefit. *sigh*

Gardios
Apr 20, 2013, 04:07 PM
Those aren't skill trees! Those are skill branches!!

I wouldn't mind if they were interlocked more with lenient prereqs... The skill trees you have are efficient and to the point which is why we'd never see anything like them. :V

For Rangers, I demand a "Chance to get a trap on kill" skill. I feel like Gunners should have a grounded and aerial tree. This may or may not be my want for more aerial combat coming through though.

Zyrusticae
Apr 20, 2013, 06:23 PM
Some interesting ideas here.

Personally, I'd invent some entirely new skills for the gunner, particularly something to replace the ridiculous "Zero Range Advance" skill. I get that they're supposed to be a hybrid ranged-melee class, but it's stupid. Unless their skills get a major revamp to do as much damage and AoE as the major hunter skills, it will never be useful.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 09:15 AM
Weak Bullet is still 2-3x damage? Why not make it into a weak point bullet, like it says on the tin?

Also, wow, those Force changes. Just why?
Yeah I've always thought about making WB turn the struck location into the regular weak point, and stack with WHA no matter where you put it. So you'd do 1.5x to a Kartagot's face or body, but only 1x damage to a Micda, just like their natural weak point. That, or call it Zalure Shot.

What about Force? Overpowered now? I just tried to make every worthless skill into something good, and honestly Force/Techer have the most. I would obviously have to test how these numbers work in practice, and if I find something like rapid fire uncharged Zonde to be absolutely ridiculous then I'd drop it down. But seriously some uncharged techs are like 1/8th the strength of their charged version - or worse, especially if you hit multiple targets.

Or if it's the Photon Flare, what would you change? About it currently or my proposal.


Those aren't skill trees! Those are skill branches!!

I wouldn't mind if they were interlocked more with lenient prereqs... The skill trees you have are efficient and to the point which is why we'd never see anything like them. :V

For Rangers, I demand a "Chance to get a trap on kill" skill. I feel like Gunners should have a grounded and aerial tree. This may or may not be my want for more aerial combat coming through though.
Hey now, some of them are somewhat treelike. But that's the thing, why have everything branch off of lv3 Stat Up? Take just that away and the classes right now are in two or three separate branches. Plus Rare Mastery, Guard, and Step are completely removed as well.

There could be progression imbalance, but I'd rather there be level restrictions instead of useless skills spacing the good ones out.

For traps, I'd like to see creating them on the field using other items you find. Maybe feeding a Trap Crafting skill a weapon gives you Upper traps, units give you Poison? And rarity determines how many you get.


Some interesting ideas here.

Personally, I'd invent some entirely new skills for the gunner, particularly something to replace the ridiculous "Zero Range Advance" skill. I get that they're supposed to be a hybrid ranged-melee class, but it's stupid. Unless their skills get a major revamp to do as much damage and AoE as the major hunter skills, it will never be useful.
Yeah, something like a Zero Range Stance and a Long Range Stance, or just a 15% bonus for each passive, which can never stack but don't carry a penalty (though you'd get nothing from a moderate distance). Plus we could have both my Aerial Advance along with the actual one, each doubled up. Is there any way to AoE juggle? Doing that, while also in the air, would be a great mobbing tool for New Gunners.

Another new skill they could have would be a different kind of chain, which automatically bounces between mobs randomly or when the target dies, where following it boosts your damage for each jump. Short, or no cooldown at all, and wears off early if there's only one target so it's only really useful for standard mobs.

As for completely new skills, I don't have too many ideas. Let's give them more HP, Ability, and R-Def? :-?

Rien
Apr 21, 2013, 10:01 AM
No run speed increase for Hunter?

Damn. Okay.

RadiantLegend
Apr 21, 2013, 10:09 AM
You had to change the title?

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 10:26 AM
No run speed increase for Hunter?

Damn. Okay.
I'd probably put something like a 1SP skill under Jump Advance that enables normal run speed with your weapon drawn, but not while charging (or maybe only with melee PAs?).


You had to change the title?
Haha yeah, a mod changed it, then I reworded it to this.

Lostbob117
Apr 21, 2013, 10:56 AM
One problem with these are, forcing you to get a gear to get skills, The gears should be at the bottom of the list.

Kamekur
Apr 21, 2013, 11:04 AM
No run speed increase for Hunter?

Damn. Okay.

Switch weapons (knuckles, daggers, double dagger switch, partizan's AB, sword double step + block...). Problem solved. I don't get why people still complain about this. If you can't quickly switch weapons, move your weapon palette to the numbers below F1~F12, use joytokey, or get out of here.

gigawuts
Apr 21, 2013, 11:06 AM
One problem with these are, forcing you to get a gear to get skills, The gears should be at the bottom of the list.

Uh, no. The current system is demonstrating the flaw in that design. Unique class-based abilities should always be the most easily accessible. You should only need 1 SP to access gear, full stop. If you switch them around suddenly the gear requires anywhere from 9-15 SP invested in the above skills for a mediocre gain in stats you may not even want for your build. Gear is versatile; prerequisites are not. Those other skills below the gear can require a 1 SP investment in the gear.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 11:07 AM
One problem with these are, forcing you to get a gear to get skills, The gears should be at the bottom of the list.
Well it's either forced 1SP gear that enables the use of a weapon type you may or may not use, or forced 5-10SP across skills you may not even want, in order to enable the use of your favorite weapon type.

jooozek
Apr 21, 2013, 11:12 AM
Switch weapons (knuckles, daggers, double dagger switch, partizan's AB, sword double step + block...). Problem solved. I don't get why people still complain about this. If you can't quickly switch weapons, move your weapon palette to the numbers below F1~F12, use joytokey, or get out of here.

dumbest thing ever
why should people abuse some design oversight
to compensate clearly terrible game design

gigawuts
Apr 21, 2013, 11:18 AM
Switch weapons (knuckles, daggers, double dagger switch, partizan's AB, sword double step + block...). Problem solved. I don't get why people still complain about this. If you can't quickly switch weapons, move your weapon palette to the numbers below F1~F12, use joytokey, or get out of here.

It shouldn't require hoop jumping, macros, button spam, or a palette of 3 of the same PA simply for mobility.

If it's meant to be intended it should be possible with all melee weapons, and not require anything that can very easily be written off as a design oversight that hasn't been addressed for either lack of caring or unwillingness to remove something leaning towards what players are already demanding.

A 1 SP skill below Just Reversal (or next Step Attack) that allows a continuous run after executing a step dodge by holding the dash key is all melee would need. Run speed would match that of knuckle dashing, or maybe triple dashing.

Lostbob117
Apr 21, 2013, 11:28 AM
Uh, no. The current system is demonstrating the flaw in that design. Unique class-based abilities should always be the most easily accessible. You should only need 1 SP to access gear, full stop. If you switch them around suddenly the gear requires anywhere from 9-15 SP invested in the above skills for a mediocre gain in stats you may not even want for your build. Gear is versatile; prerequisites are not. Those other skills below the gear can require a 1 SP investment in the gear.

There isn't a flaw in the system with that at all. It's more of a "should I spend this sp to get that gear, is it worth it?" Not a "Let me just get a gear at Lv1" Sega made the gears in the trees that best fits them. Here's an example.

Sword Gear is in the defensive tree, cause the intended you to be tanky with the sword since it's a pretty slow weapon. But some people spend the sp on a skill they never will use, then go to the offensive tree to make swords more powerful and Partizan gear and Wired lance gear was put into the offensive tree cause, what Wired lance does is amazingly good in dmg. Also Partizan gear is good there cause if you play a glass cannon build you want to try and stay away from the enemy and have that extra range.

gigawuts
Apr 21, 2013, 11:32 AM
There isn't a flaw in the system with that at all. It's more of a "should I spend this sp to get that gear, is it worth it?" Not a "Let me just get a gear at Lv1" Sega made the gears in the trees that best fits them. Here's an example.

Sword Gear is in the defensive tree, cause the intended you to be tanky with the sword since it's a pretty slow weapon. But some people spend the sp on a skill they never will use, then go to the offensive tree to make swords more powerful and Partizan gear and Wired lance gear was put into the offensive tree cause, what Wired lance does is amazingly good in dmg. Also Partizan gear is good there cause if you play a glass cannon build you want to try and stay away from the enemy and have that extra range.

Yeah...no.

Automate Halfline benefits wired lances more than swords. Swords are the best raw offense weapon in the game. According to you partisans should then be in the step tree, because they're about step dodging. Partisans are not about glass cannon at all. Their gear in no way benefits offense, just range, and step is their main method of defense.

No. Shit is too spread out. Unique 1 SP weapon changing abilities are class-centric and the purpose of the class. They should be easily reachable so they do not limit however else you want to expand on your class.

edit: With where they are now they're more oriented as rewards for going into that part of the tree, but in reality they wind up being costly for gaining the purpose of your class. What sega intended to create is, once again, not what sega actually created.

Lostbob117
Apr 21, 2013, 11:37 AM
Yeah...no.

Automate Halfline benefits wired lances more than swords. Swords are the best raw offense weapon in the game. According to you partisans should then be in the step tree, because they're about step dodging. Partisans are not about glass cannon at all. Their gear in no way benefits offense, just range, and step is their main method of defense.

No. Shit is too spread out. Unique 1 SP weapon changing abilities are class-centric and the purpose of the class. They should be easily reachable so they do not limit however else you want to expand on your class.

edit: With where they are now they're more oriented as rewards for going into that part of the tree, but in reality they wind up being costly for gaining the purpose of your class. What sega intended to create is, once again, not what sega actually created.

The bolded... A class cannon is meant to be ranged so they don't die.

gigawuts
Apr 21, 2013, 11:39 AM
No, no it is not. A glass cannon is meant to get under an enemy and flinch them enough that they can't fight back, using raw offense and invuln frames (guard, step) to evade the closer range attacks. The glass cannon can use its best damaging attacks to the greatest effect this way, what with them having limited range and all.

Source: Every video game with dash and flinch ever.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 11:39 AM
a glass cannon is supposed to not get hit so they don't die, which can be out-ranging, block/parrying, or dodging

Lostbob117
Apr 21, 2013, 11:42 AM
No, no it is not. A glass cannon is meant to get under an enemy and flinch them enough that they can't fight back, using raw offense and invuln frames (guard, step) to evade the closer range attacks. The glass cannon can use its best damaging attacks to the greatest effect this way, what with them having limited range and all.

Source: Every video game with dash and flinch ever.

That would just putting yourself at risk to die.

gigawuts
Apr 21, 2013, 11:45 AM
That would just putting yourself at risk to die.

Maybe if you're shit it is.

The entire point of a glass cannon melee build is using your best damaging attacks to kill something before it can even hope to kill you.

You're describing a sniper, or howitzer. That is only one, limited facet of glass cannon gameplay, and doesn't really exist in PSO2, especially not on melee.

What are you going to do at range with partisans? Speed Rain something to death? And this will somehow be more effective than deadly archer, which has higher damage and more precision? Speed Rain doesn't even scratch heavenly fall.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 11:47 AM
well let's see your partisan "glass cannon" out-range anything with projectiles

ShinMaruku
Apr 21, 2013, 11:48 AM
That would just putting yourself at risk to die.

Risk and reward my friend, A glass cannon puts out massive damage but is made out of tissue. It matters not if it's ranged or not.

Gardios
Apr 21, 2013, 11:52 AM
For traps, I'd like to see creating them on the field using other items you find. Maybe feeding a Trap Crafting skill a weapon gives you Upper traps, units give you Poison? And rarity determines how many you get.
That'd be even better, now that I think about it.
More trap types would be swell in conjunction with that to make full trap Rangers an option and giving them access to other status effects.
Freezing Trap: Ice damage, chance to freeze
Mine: Fire damage, chance to burn
Shrapnel Trap: Damage, creates area with damage over time
Ignition Trap: Damage, increased damage against enemies with a status effect


As for completely new skills, I don't have too many ideas. Let's give them more HP, Ability, and R-Def? :-?
Random ideas
Counter Advance: Improve damage after successfully evading an attack for a short time. To make Showtime more attractive.
dunno-wat-to-name-this Advance: Improve damage over time until you evade. For the Gunners that favor ranged combat and don't want to play Ranger for whatever reason.
Hover Advance: Improve damage over time until you land. Similar idea to the above, just ground/air as opposed to close/far.
Juggle Advance: Improve damage to airborne enemies and improve "lift" power. Useless against bosses though.
Spread Shot: Chance to hit nearby enemies with each shot. Chance scales per level to 50% at Lv 10, damage is fixed at 20%?
Spread Shot Advance: Increase Spread Shot damage. Lv 10 would increase the damage to a total of 70%?
Chain Advance: Improve damage during Chain Trigger.
Double Chain: Chance to start another Chain right after Chain Finish. Would be limited to two in a row and Chain Trigger cooldown would start again once the new Chain starts.

Rien
Apr 21, 2013, 11:54 AM
Switch weapons (knuckles, daggers, double dagger switch, partizan's AB, sword double step + block...). Problem solved. I don't get why people still complain about this. If you can't quickly switch weapons, move your weapon palette to the numbers below F1~F12, use joytokey, or get out of here.

Halp

I don't understand yer jargon

Alisha
Apr 21, 2013, 12:00 PM
that(sprint) would just be a bandaid fix because sega is too pusy to nerf forces.

gigawuts
Apr 21, 2013, 12:01 PM
That'd be even better, now that I think about it.
More trap types would be swell in conjunction with that to make full trap Rangers an option and giving them access to other status effects.
Freezing Trap: Ice damage, chance to freeze
Mine: Fire damage, chance to burn
Shrapnel Trap: Damage, creates area with damage over time
Ignition Trap: Damage, increased damage against enemies with a status effect


Random ideas
Counter Advance: Improve damage after successfully evading an attack for a short time. To make Showtime more attractive.
dunno-wat-to-name-this Advance: Improve damage over time until you evade. For the Gunners that favor ranged combat and don't want to play Ranger for whatever reason.
Hover Advance: Improve damage over time until you land. Similar idea to the above, just ground/air as opposed to close/far.
Juggle Advance: Improve damage to airborne enemies and improve "lift" power. Useless against bosses though.
Spread Shot: Chance to hit nearby enemies with each shot. Chance scales per level to 50% at Lv 10, damage is fixed at 20%?
Spread Shot Advance: Increase Spread Shot damage. Lv 10 would increase the damage to a total of 70%?
Chain Advance: Improve damage during Chain Trigger.
Double Chain: Chance to start another Chain right after Chain Finish. Would be limited to two in a row and Chain Trigger cooldown would start again once the new Chain starts.

They really, really need to expand on abilities. Just Guard for one could really do with PP/HP/both absorption, Just Guard should give bonus damage to dagger parries and all autoguards, etc.

There's a good framework, but it becomes particularly lacking and repetitive past level 40 or so. Everything after that is just your typical arms race with the enemies, get stronger weapons and more multipliers to deal with the enemy's extra HP and def.

It'd be like if pokemon stopped learning moves at their third form. Great. More stats for each level to deal with higher level enemies. Never do anything new. Uh, great?

Kamekur
Apr 21, 2013, 12:01 PM
What I am saying is that melees already have tools to move quickly. If you don't want to use them it's not my problem. Full running speed with weapon drawn would be nice, but not anything further than that (though, I'd never use that skill)

Kilich
Apr 21, 2013, 12:03 PM
About my surprise when I saw Fo change.

Photon flare will give them 2.5x damage for 60 sec with 90 sec cooldown, that hopefully will start after it ends, not upon activation.

And why would they need that 2.5x damage? They are not exactly lacking in damage department. In fact they have amazing damage.

gigawuts
Apr 21, 2013, 12:07 PM
What I am saying is that melees already have tools to move quickly. If you don't want to use them it's not my problem. Full running speed with weapon drawn would be nice, but not anything further than that (though, I'd never use that skill)

You haven't told anyone anything they don't already know. We want it made standard for all equipment without requiring button macros, good pings, a palette just for one thing, etc.

Apply this conversation to something we already have that's considered a staple of melee. I don't know, let's say Step Attack.

"You already have it, just run up and use the gunslash to swing, then use your macro/good ping/dedicated palette to swap to your desired weapon."

"But that's not what we mean, it's not fast enough and clearly not intended, plus it takes up a whole palette slot which limits our already limited toolset."

"What I am saying is that melees already have the tools to attack quickly. If you don't want to use them it's not my problem."

Kilich
Apr 21, 2013, 12:12 PM
Also, I'd really want for subclasses to affect the playstyle of the main. Like Hu/Te getting JG that protects nearby allies, FI giving you sprint after blue rings, Gu giving your JAs flinch resist.

Maybe a free to respec hybrid trees/runes/gears.

~Aya~
Apr 21, 2013, 12:15 PM
Ill just go make my female newman a tank and use WL's..... full tank spec with war cry!!! Someone please carry me!!!!! You'll like it when it comes down to boss time.. ♥♥

Alisha
Apr 21, 2013, 12:19 PM
techer needs something with melee synergy

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 12:46 PM
About my surprise when I saw Fo change.

Photon flare will give them 2.5x damage for 60 sec with 90 sec cooldown, that hopefully will start after it ends, not upon activation.

And why would they need that 2.5x damage? They are not exactly lacking in damage department. In fact they have amazing damage.
Hm yeah, I think it should be 30-60s up with 90-60s down. It's 20 SP for that damage and a penalty which can be crippling in AQs or boss fights. You can't max an element (even without the status boost), and all of JA/Charge along with full Photon Flare, so not everyone will get crazy boosted damage on every target.

Still though, I originally just had it be 200% damage given+taken for 1/4 of the time, comparing it to Fury Stance which is 125% damage given and 105% taken all of the time, but then I made PFA and nerfed FS after.

Here's a revision:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/eFp9ocU.png[/SPOILER-BOX]
techer needs something with melee synergy
I tried to do that with the Mirage thing, extra wand damage, and melee hybrid PP regen.

Kamekur
Apr 21, 2013, 12:48 PM
You haven't told anyone anything they don't already know. We want it made standard for all equipment without requiring button macros, good pings, a palette just for one thing, etc.

Apply this conversation to something we already have that's considered a staple of melee. I don't know, let's say Step Attack.

"You already have it, just run up and use the gunslash to swing, then use your macro/good ping/dedicated palette to swap to your desired weapon."

"But that's not what we mean, it's not fast enough and clearly not intended, plus it takes up a whole palette slot which limits our already limited toolset."

"What I am saying is that melees already have the tools to attack quickly. If you don't want to use them it's not my problem."

Palette 1: Dual Saber: Deadly archer x 3 . General dps, used for bosses, mobs with great HP.
Palette 2: Knuckles: Straight charge x 3. Nothing apart from mobility (I'm using the all-class ones, too lazy to get the good ones when I switch between Fighter and Hunter)
Palette 3: Partizan: Assault Buster, Slide End, Assault Buster. Mob trashing forward/horizontally. Both PAs can be used to knock down flying mobs (see: Breeahdas)
Palette 4: Vraolet with potential level 3/Rouge Coffin/Daggers: Gunslash with aiming shot or additional bullet x 3, depending which quest I'm doing. Daggers: Raging Waltz, Dark Scherzo x2. Mainly to kill Gilnas Cores, or destroy Quartz's Wings if I want drops. Vraolet simply to increase drops.
Palette 5: Sword: Sonic Arrow x2, Overend. I use it only at Nab II currently, to kill the preset spawns in area 1 and 3, and instantly break Banther's leg in area 4.
Palette 6: Wired Lances: Holding Current, Other Spin, Heavenly Fall. Holding current is great in damage (using a macro, of course), and I would use Heavenly Fall x 3 to fight bosses if I didn't spend all my SP to get all the Fury skills (I'm still level 53 Hu). Other Spin can somewhat act as zondeel, when a large group of trash mobs are together (see: Degalla's waves)
How I play: I assume you're saying melees aren't fast enough in MPAs. The best solution to that is to always be ahead of the MPA. Knuckle dash, switch to required weapon to kill. Destroy it. Switch back to Knuckles to move again as soon as your PA finishes.You mentioned that you need good ping, but you actually don't. I'm from Spain and I'm fine with just switching after I finish the PA.
In AQs, you don't have that problem: Forces can't 1 tech/2 tech kill mobs. That's where melees come in, to kill the zondeeled mobs (assault buster and slide end are great for that.)

I honestly don't think knuckle dashing wasn't meant to be there, and it's just "a glitch". People were complaining back in beta that melees weren't fast enough. Well, knuckles, daggers, and partizan's assault buster are Sega's answer.
As for my toolset, as I've portrayed there, I don't feel limited at all. What you are saying about needing to switch weapons to be fast, it's like saying in, I don't know, let's say Counter Strike.
"I can't use all my weapons at the same time, so make it easier for me to switch"
"But you can already press the numbers to switch"
"I don't care, just make it easier"

I am not saying melees shouldn't be faster. I will welcome any kind of new ways to be even faster. But please, melees are already the fastest TA runners (or in par with Forces). In my honest opinion, we don't really need to be faster, or have it easy to be fast.

gigawuts
Apr 21, 2013, 12:54 PM
Palette 1: Dual Saber: Deadly archer x 3 . General dps, used for bosses, mobs with great HP.
Palette 2: Knuckles: Straight charge x 3. Nothing apart from mobility (I'm using the all-class ones, too lazy to get the good ones when I switch between Fighter and Hunter)
Palette 3: Partizan: Assault Buster, Slide End, Assault Buster. Mob trashing forward/horizontally. Both PAs can be used to knock down flying mobs (see: Breeahdas)
Palette 4: Vraolet with potential level 3/Rouge Coffin/Daggers: Gunslash with aiming shot or additional bullet x 3, depending which quest I'm doing. Daggers: Raging Waltz, Dark Scherzo x2. Mainly to kill Gilnas Cores, or destroy Quartz's Wings if I want drops. Vraolet simply to increase drops.
Palette 5: Sword: Sonic Arrow x2, Overend. I use it only at Nab II currently, to kill the preset spawns in area 1 and 3, and instantly break Banther's leg in area 4.
Palette 6: Wired Lances: Holding Current, Other Spin, Heavenly Fall. Holding current is great in damage (using a macro, of course), and I would use Heavenly Fall x 3 to fight bosses if I didn't spend all my SP to get all the Fury skills (I'm still level 53 Hu). Other Spin can somewhat act as zondeel, when a large group of trash mobs are together (see: Degalla's waves)
How I play: I assume you're saying melees aren't fast enough in MPAs. The best solution to that is to always be ahead of the MPA. Knuckle dash, switch to required weapon to kill. Destroy it. Switch back to Knuckles to move again as soon as your PA finishes.You mentioned that you need good ping, but you actually don't. I'm from Spain and I'm fine with just switching after I finish the PA.
In AQs, you don't have that problem: Forces can't 1 tech/2 tech kill mobs. That's where melees come in, to kill the zondeeled mobs (assault buster and slide end are great for that.)

I honestly don't think knuckle dashing wasn't meant to be there, and it's just "a glitch". People were complaining back in beta that melees weren't fast enough. Well, knuckles, daggers, and partizan's assault buster are Sega's answer.
As for my toolset, as I've portrayed there, I don't feel limited at all.

I am not saying melees shouldn't be faster. I will welcome any kind of new ways to be even faster. But please, melees are already the fastest TA runners (or in par with Forces). In my honest opinion, we don't really need to be faster, or have it easy to be fast.

Those are not sega's answer. They're moves that happen to allow faster movement. Based on this, rodeo drive was sega's answer to ranger needing to be the fastest class at launch.

Which it didn't.

I don't care that if you do such-and-such with such-and-such combos and such-and-such weapon that you can go fast. I want it on all melee weapons as a universal standard, like step advance and step attack. This is not too much to ask for, and them adding multiple methods of fast travel that are not universal standards just make it clearer that a universal standard needs to exist.

Repeatedly pointing out shit I already know exists does not impact that in even the slightest way.

edit: Also, the good ping is required for triple dashing. Have fun triple dashing from Spain.

Kilich
Apr 21, 2013, 12:59 PM
You can actually get maxed PF and one element masteries with Revival for 70sp. Not taking PF would be akin to Rangers not taking WB.

Also, I just noticed uncharged 300% bonus. Won't that be a bit of an overkill with masteries? Not to mention spamming them during PF?

Kamekur
Apr 21, 2013, 01:00 PM
Based on this, rodeo drive was sega's answer to ranger needing to be the fastest class at launch.

edit: Also, the good ping is required for triple dashing. Have fun triple dashing from Spain.
I know, and my Gu/Ra (planning to make her Ra/Hu, Gu/Ra is pointless now) uses it along with gunslash's double step.

I can't triple dash, I know it. I need like 100 less ms to do it. But I don't feel gimped without it unless I play with the best melee of my team.

And, yeah, you exactly said: "I don't care, just make it easier". Welp.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 01:27 PM
You can actually get maxed PF and one element masteries with Revival for 70sp. Not taking PF would be akin to Rangers not taking WB.

Also, I just noticed uncharged 300% bonus. Won't that be a bit of an overkill with masteries? Not to mention spamming them during PF?
2x Mastery, 1x Elemental mod, Photon Flares, and PP Revival gets you to 62. 63 if you need Just Reversal. At this point you're missing out on 20% general tech damage and your chosen element's status skill (6SP minimum). Plus the stat ups, which I've doubled to 100 Atk/Def/Dex/HP or 20 PP for 10SP.

Weak Bullet is 3x damage for 4x15s (60s) with 90s cd. For the entire party. Which I essentially doubled the SP cost and reduced the cd to be sustainable, but it has its drawbacks for the user and against large groups.

Uncharged, not really. I think the strongest uncharged tech right now is 20-30% the strength of its charged version. The idea behind this change is to equalize the damage, or even surpass charged techs in certain cases. They still suffer reduced range, area, and duration/number of hits, so even with a massive damage boost you would still rather take a second or so to charge.

Zyrusticae
Apr 21, 2013, 08:22 PM
Someone posted this on PSO2 Uploader:
https://sd5uva.bn1.livefilestore.com/y1pfOnq4QnbI570gNj6mTNsn7AF-hM5j_IQvXMNKV9J_i9roJwzIQj4qxOVzLYAZWWC0QHkpyXpQq8/up49403.jpg?psid=1

Maronji
Apr 21, 2013, 08:40 PM
Someone posted this on PSO2 Uploader:
[SPOILER-BOX]https://sd5uva.bn1.livefilestore.com/y1pfOnq4QnbI570gNj6mTNsn7AF-hM5j_IQvXMNKV9J_i9roJwzIQj4qxOVzLYAZWWC0QHkpyXpQq8/up49403.jpg?psid=1[/SPOILER-BOX]

I might be wrong, but that might be the Force skill tree from Alpha 2/Closed Beta.

I don't remember. It looks vaguely familiar to me, though.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 08:49 PM
Yuck, forced Status boosts and Normal Advance? No thanks!

At least the Ice Tree looks a lot better there.

Omega-z
Apr 21, 2013, 10:14 PM
Yeah, it's the Skill Tree from Alpha 2 it was the best set up for the Force class. Unlucky You don't have forced Normal Adv. unless you wanted JA Adv., then 3 point's for mastery 2 isn't that bad when it's cheaper to get too. That to being able even use them would of been better then what they are now.

gigawuts
Apr 22, 2013, 08:34 AM
Remove normal tech advance and give it to techer.

Then make it +20% per level, +200% at level 10.

Then watch it still not be worth it.

Gardios
Apr 22, 2013, 09:29 AM
We wan't no filthy Normal Tech Advance.

It doesn't even synergize with Wand Gear lol.

UnLucky
Apr 22, 2013, 12:41 PM
Remove normal tech advance and give it to techer.

Then make it +20% per level, +200% at level 10.

Then watch it still not be worth it.

It seriously doesn't fit for either class.

Force gets all the charged tech bonus damage and PP Charge.

Techer gets extra PP regen to possibly make back the extra PP cost of uncharged techs, but neither class gets any PP regen while JAing uncharged techs back to back. And not to mention the slower cast speed with wands, which is made even worse for uncharged techs since the charge time is the same for both classes.

And only charged techs build Wand Gear.

The lowest boost that Normal Tech Advance has to be to make at least one technic worth using uncharged as opposed to charging it nine times out of ten, is +300%. And that would only be for techs that hit only once.

Charged Grants is like 5x5000 damage, while uncharged is 1x1500.

Omega-z
Apr 22, 2013, 06:38 PM
gigawuts - is on to an idea with that, And it does make more sense to do the move tho. The thing is that you need to change WG from charge'd to any Tech used with wand. Now normal Tech's naturally cast faster so that can compensate for Wand's slowness with Charged Tech's. Then the biggest thing would be to increase it's power for any amount of use. I'm not to concern about the amount of hit's so much since the utility is the biggest part and that too Techer should be weaker then Force. But we have a Wand that boost Normal Tech's also. But For this to really work it needs to have (NO PP cost) PP reducing ST that work's on Normal Tech's. And instead of PP regain with attack's ( normal melee/Range) having a PP regain with Normal Tech's/Tech use. That have Poison Ing. Be more like your Freeze Ing. Model also.

Update: PF could be better for Techer also since it can boost WG explosion's, that move Freeze Ing. over too. .....etc. I made a Techer ST before this. I can show you how it look's if you like. OH, did you use Photo Shop for the tree or can you modify it?

Update 2: Scratch the PP reducing for Normal tech and have them not use PP and have it regain when they attack. FIX"D

Shadowth117
Apr 22, 2013, 06:43 PM
And instead of PP regain with attack's ( normal melee/Range) having a PP regain with Normal Tech's/Tech use.

THIS^ is something I wanted from the beginning. The current normal tech damage would be fine if it did that, but for some reason only ranged and melee get back their PP with their own attack. Don't even think about mentioning a talis since we all know that attack is slow and terrible. I carry a gunslash for a reason.

UnLucky
Apr 22, 2013, 07:16 PM
I used an image editor to make these, of course, and can modify them whenever I want. Though I didn't keep the original files with easily editable text... but no big deal.

Normal techs costing zero PP is such an obvious thing now that you mention it. It wouldn't even have to allow for PP regen while casting or even regain PP from hits and they would already be useful. Buffs can cost 10PP or something.

They could even cost PP to start, but give it back if it's not charged, so you still lose PP if you dodge or get hit while charging. I mean, I'd rather that not happen, but I'd take it.

gigawuts
Apr 22, 2013, 07:50 PM
Normal Techs just need a -10 PP skill like bolt pp save.

edit: For the record, I've been talking about a Normal PP Refund skill since...probably august. If you cast a tech without fully charging it, it would give back 1 PP per level. Activating a tech would cost the normal amount, releasing before charging would refund PP.

UnLucky
Apr 22, 2013, 09:00 PM
It can go under Normal Tech Advance 2, requiring lv5 of the skill! It's perfect!

Darki
Apr 23, 2013, 12:12 AM
I actually prefer how stuff is done for real than most of thse concepts. Step attack under Just reversal, wtf? Lol

Inazuma
Apr 23, 2013, 04:15 AM
I mostly looked at the Force and Techter skill trees and I like your ideas a lot. The official Sega skill trees are so poorly made, it seriously makes me wonder WTF they were thinking.

Shadowth117
Apr 23, 2013, 04:43 AM
I mostly looked at the Force and Techter skill trees and I like your ideas a lot. The official Sega skill trees are so poorly made, it seriously makes me wonder WTF they were thinking.
WTF Sega was thinking: "Oooooh, if we make elemental based skill trees we can force the dedicated players to buy multiple skill trees >:3"

gigawuts
Apr 23, 2013, 08:52 AM
I'd still rather see 5 SP skills than 10 SP skills. This would allow better balancing per level of skills that shouldn't be capable of reaching crazy high levels. Then add more skills to soak up the excess SP.


Copies of skills are also excessive, but in the case of masteries I can see the point.

edit: Just a few notes from games with fun skilltrees
1. Skills should always have noteworthy benefits at the first SP
2. Skills should never make you feel like you're completely trashing SP to get something better
3. There should always be multiple paths to the same end goal, which allows more customization for the player and less restrictions on what players can do.

Just gonna throw this in here because I've been playing it again and god damn do they know how to make a skill tree: http://www.borderlands2.com/us/skilltree/

Each column is a separate branch in the tree, and does not count towards another column. Each row in each column requires rownumber*5 SP to unlock, or 5 for row 2, 10 for row 3, etc. These SP can be spent anywhere, in any order, in any row in that branch. You can spend 3 SP in the left skill in a column and 2 SP on the right skill in the same column and get either skill in row 2 of that column. You could spend all 10 SP in the two top skills and get skills in row 3, no problem. The only exception to this is the Mechromancer's right side column, which forces you into getting those two skills in the first row at max.

Inazuma
Apr 23, 2013, 09:30 AM
WTF Sega was thinking: "Oooooh, if we make elemental based skill trees we can force the dedicated players to buy multiple skill trees >:3"

You are right about that. If you want to be a good force, you have to have one skill tree per element.

UnLucky
Apr 23, 2013, 11:57 AM
I'd still rather see 5 SP skills than 10 SP skills. This would allow better balancing per level of skills that shouldn't be capable of reaching crazy high levels. Then add more skills to soak up the excess SP.
It'd sure make "1 or max" skills a lot less painful. I would probably prefer skills that give 5% for the first point, and 1% for each of the rest (for 5 point skills). But this means you need more skills, and copies are certainly the easiest.


1. Skills should always have noteworthy benefits at the first SP
2. Skills should never make you feel like you're completely trashing SP to get something better
3. There should always be multiple paths to the same end goal, which allows more customization for the player and less restrictions on what players can do.
Defining active abilities could be 1SP skills, and upgrade skills for them can be linear. You could say it all counts as one overall skill, but gradual improvement isn't always bad. I like to see a few concentrations instead of getting one point in every area for the biggest overall boost. A mix is great, though, just so long as we don't get a bunch of skills like the Stat Ups which start out horrible, end up pretty bad, and are forced at least halfway so the player is fucked regardless.


Just gonna throw this in here because I've been playing it again and god damn do they know how to make a skill tree: http://www.borderlands2.com/us/skilltree/
Well as long as they don't make skills like Mechro's... I think the game is easy enough without forcing missed attacks to hit with insanely high multipliers attached and constantly growing.

Shadowth117
Apr 23, 2013, 12:29 PM
You are right about that. If you want to be a good force, you have to have one skill tree per element.

I dunno about per element, but at the moment you really do want fire and lightning if you can have them both. Ice, wind, light, and dark based stuff isn't especially useful.

gigawuts
Apr 23, 2013, 12:47 PM
Well as long as they don't make skills like Mechro's... I think the game is easy enough without forcing missed attacks to hit with insanely high multipliers attached and constantly growing.

Er, yeah, the point of skilltrees is they're built around the game and what would be used to improve it.

Way to, once again, nitpick a miniscule detail that clearly needn't apply. It's like almost none of those skills would apply 1:1 to PSO2 because PSO2 has almost none of the same mechanics.

Inazuma
Apr 23, 2013, 12:47 PM
I dunno about per element, but at the moment you really do want fire and lightning if you can have them both. Ice, wind, light, and dark based stuff isn't especially useful.

Wind is very useful in Forest AQ. Ice for Caves. Many darkers are weak to light in many areas, and dark is useful in Floating Continent and Dragon Altar.

Fire techs are great but drain PP very fast. Lightning techs will activate Zondeel, preventing it from being used to gather enemies. Against enemies weak to fire or lightning, they are great of course. Against enemies weak to other elements, I'd argue that they aren't the best.

It's the same thing with Fighter and Techter subclasses for Force. Depending on the area you are playing, one will be better than the other. Generally, if you are mostly using fire, ice or lightning, Force/Fighter will be superior. Force/Techter is generally better for wind, light and dark.

A good Force will take all of this into consideration and change their subclass and/or skill tree when needed.

gigawuts
Apr 23, 2013, 12:49 PM
No, a good force doesn't need any of that. A dedicated force, sure, but having one skilltree does not automatically disqualify you from being a good force.

UnLucky
Apr 23, 2013, 12:55 PM
Er, yeah, the point of skilltrees is they're built around the game and what would be used to improve it.

Way to, once again, nitpick a miniscule detail that clearly needn't apply. It's like almost none of those skills would apply 1:1 to PSO2 because PSO2 has almost none of the same mechanics.

Ok fine, the tree mechanics are great, though a bunch of times there'll be 1 point skills so you have to spread out your points in stuff you don't really want or can't max two others you do want without further sacrifice.

And the skills themselves are fairly imbalanced within the game. Not saying PSO2 should have shields and pets and faster reload speed, obviously. Just wanted another opportunity to laugh at Mechro "Girlfriend" Mancer.

But could you imagine if Ranger had stacking Weak Bullets with no cooldown and just passively accumulated, and any time they missed their target, they had a chance to hit their target instead?

UnLucky
Apr 23, 2013, 01:00 PM
Wind is very useful in Forest AQ. Ice for Caves. Many darkers are weak to light in many areas, and dark is useful in Floating Continent and Dragon Altar.

Fire techs are great but drain PP very fast. Lightning techs will activate Zondeel, preventing it from being used to gather enemies. Against enemies weak to fire or lightning, they are great of course. Against enemies weak to other elements, I'd argue that they aren't the best.

It's the same thing with Fighter and Techter subclasses for Force. Depending on the area you are playing, one will be better than the other. Generally, if you are mostly using fire, ice or lightning, Force/Fighter will be superior. Force/Techter is generally better for wind, light and dark.

A good Force will take all of this into consideration and change their subclass and/or skill tree when needed.

Fire is more useful in Forest, Wind is not useful in Tundra. Dark and Lightning are better in Caves save for the freeze effect on Vol. All Darkers are weak to either Fire or Lightning, and rare variants are not weak to Light. Lightning is better faster easier and cheaper damage in F.Cont and Sanctum, after poison is inflicted on boss parts (which aren't even weak to Dark for the most part) and enemies weak to Fire and/or Lightning still appear in these areas.

gigawuts
Apr 23, 2013, 01:07 PM
That is a flaw, yes. That's partially out of necessity. Some 1 SP skills would definitely be better as 5 SP skills that unlock an ability with 1 SP and improve it with 4 more SP, such as the kill skills that recover HP on kill or the passive skill that grants a thunderstorm on a crit. Investing more SP increases the effectiveness of this new ability.

But, other skills should definitely be only 1 SP, or perhaps even 0 SP that require a minimum investment in a certain category (or none at all). Skills that change a mechanic's behavior in a way that benefits one way but sacrifices another way should be inherently balanced, and shouldn't really require any more sacrifice.

The purpose of limiting skills at 5 SP is to limit the ability to specialize at one role WITHOUT precluding too many other, more balanced roles. Right now they limit your ability to specialize at one role by making the bonuses for those roles very weak. But they still soak up 10 SP. They don't want this role to be OP, which is good, but by making it weak that means you need a full investment to be actually good at it. And then you can't really do anything else. Techer's support skills and force's PP skills are the best examples here. Minimal bonus, plus large requirements to even access. If you want base PP bonuses you have to kill 30 SP for...1 more tech's worth of PP. That same SP could have just made your techs deal much more than 1 more tech's worth of damage.

I don't mind the existence of 10 SP skills. I just mind the existence of WEAK 10 SP skills. JA Bonus is an example of a skill that should not be 1% per level. They should condense both of the JAB's into one skill, and make it starting at 5%, lead to 15% at 5 SP, and lead to 20% at 10 SP. The fighter stances are an example of how I'd like to see more skills handled. 1 SP is decent, 5 is great, 10 is for maxing. The stance ups are of a poorer design. The 6-10 SP range in fighter stances is more like a whole second skill.

Inazuma
Apr 23, 2013, 01:09 PM
No, a good force doesn't need any of that. A dedicated force, sure, but having one skilltree does not automatically disqualify you from being a good force.

You can never use rods and only use talis and still be a good force. You can also melee with your rod to recover pp and still be a good force. The game is so easy that you could just spam zonde with a red rod everywhere and do fine.

At least, by your definition of "good". A force who activates zondeel in the Forest AQ is not as good as one who uses it to group enemies, followed up with fire or wind techs. Hunters and rangers can do a lot of damage. A good force will take that into consideration.

Just like how a good hunter will use gunslash sometimes.

gigawuts
Apr 23, 2013, 01:12 PM
Right. "Good" for me is about understanding game mechanics and playing intelligently to support your teammates, resulting in players adding up to more than the sum of their parts, or using a situational advantage to perform well. Excelling or being great at a class is when you invest heavily in it.

Kind of a terminology nitpick, but you get what I mean.

Inazuma
Apr 23, 2013, 01:17 PM
Right. "Good" for me is about understanding game mechanics and playing intelligently to support your teammates, resulting in players adding up to more than the sum of their parts, or using a situational advantage to perform well. Excelling or being great at a class is when you invest heavily in it.

Kind of a terminology nitpick, but you get what I mean.

And that means never using any element that's not fire or lightning? Also, you never use Techter as a subclass? Force/Fighter using fire or lightning is generally the best, but not always. Why not be the best always? That's how I try to play Force. I will even play as Force/Ranger if there is no ranger in the party and weak bullet is needed.

gigawuts
Apr 23, 2013, 01:20 PM
And that means never using any element that's not fire or lightning? Also, you never use Techter as a subclass? Force/Fighter using fire or lightning is generally the best, but not always. Why not be the best always? That's how I try to play Force. I will even play as Force/Ranger if there is no ranger in the party and weak bullet is needed.

I completely have no idea what it is you're even arguing with me about, being that I never said anything about what element you pick, main class, sub class, or any of that, and I'm not going to either.

I said a force isn't automatically excluded from being "good" because they don't spend real money on a skill tree.

Inazuma
Apr 23, 2013, 01:39 PM
I completely have no idea what it is you're even arguing with me about, being that I never said anything about what element you pick, main class, sub class, or any of that, and I'm not going to either.

I said a force isn't automatically excluded from being "good" because they don't spend real money on a skill tree.

Well, if you don't spend real money on skill trees, you are limited to a single element per class. That's not as good as being able to use all 6 elements. That's how the game is set up.

Even if we are just talking about fire and lightning. You can't be the best at both unless you have two skill trees. You can try to do them both in one skill tree but it's not as good as having two skill trees. I know it sucks that Sega designed the game this way, but that's how it is.

It's fine if you only have one skill tree and are happy with it. Fire and lightning are at least decent in every area. But that's not good enough for people like me, so we have to buy a few extra skill trees.

gigawuts
Apr 23, 2013, 01:42 PM
good != best

Which is what my point was. The best might have to spend money, but being good does not necessitate it.

Please stop going off topic to further a debate with an argument that was never made in the first place.

UnLucky
Apr 23, 2013, 01:53 PM
Focusing entirely on Fire or Lightning can give you 184% in one, but 139% in the other (and with only 5 in one of S Charge or PP Save, the other maxed). Flipping 1SP from Tech Advance into the off-element mastery makes it 182% vs 145%. But you also drop your other elements down.

The "single tree multi-element (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?04bdbdIkbdIkbdIkbdIkb3Ikb3Ik0lbIn000 0009b00000ib00000ib000064OIk2XIxjbncAIw0000ib00000 8)" build I suggest gives you 166% Fire and 150% Bolt (or switch them), along with both of the utility skills. This is also nearly optimal for Techer elements, allowing for 189% with maxed masteries, and 227% with EMW.

Another split could be 174% and 138%, taking points from Tech Advance into Mastery 2 and maxing both element utilities, but the four other elements also take a big drop.


So what I'm saying is, you need three trees each for Force and Techer to maximize a single element (or four, if we count Ice as an element), but generalizing is not a significant difference. Pure Fire or Lightning is only ~110% as strong as my suggested build, and you still need a general Force build for the Techer elements.

BlankM
Apr 24, 2013, 02:29 PM
I thought a little bit about how to make techer more interesting. My ideas are probably not what SEGA had in mind for the class but it'd be fun.imo

Wand Gear
Elemental explosion does 20% of your t-atk at all levels. Maxes by doing charged techs. At max, obtains super armor while charging with wands. Also allows you to cancel charging with a normal attack, which replaces the elemental explosion with whatever tech you were charging.

Make Mirage Boost and Poison Boost optional to get to Mastery 2 and replace with...

Haste Tech
Any party member in the area of wind techs get a slight movement speed boost for a short duration.

Berserk Charge
Charged techs get a damage boost based on how low your health is. Maxing at 25% at less then 15% health.

Finally a change to PP convert to synergize with this.

PP Convert
Cooldown: 60-90 Seconds
When activated, your techs will cost health instead of PP.
Each enemy killed during this reduces the cooldown by 1 second. Maxing at 2 seconds reduced with 10sp.

Doesn't sound as useful as the old PP convert, but combined with megiverse and resta you should still get the desirable effect while changing techers playstyle to encourage staying in. With help from wand gear super armor this is no problem, though they will live quite dangerously. It'd proly still be a better sub unless Techers got better defense, but oh well I don't feel like thinking about more ways around that.

UnLucky
Apr 24, 2013, 03:34 PM
Well Techer is already a high risk melee class with low reward and very little to support the playstyle. Low HP, low defense, and low damage, but you're expected to attack up close? Closer than Rod melee, even.

If that's what Sega had in mind, then to hell with that. Why does Techer get all the same stats as Fighter (besides an equal trade from S-Atk to T-Atk) but not the HP? Force can sub ANY CLASS to have as much T-Def as Fo/Te. Te/Fo gets nowhere near the same T-Def, while also taking a hit to S-Def which even a pure melee class is lacking.

Wand Gear needs to be insane to compensate for all these deficiencies. Yet it's weaker than any tech or PA, offers zero range, requires opposing playstyles to charge vs use, and doesn't combine with any other aspect of Techer.

TMG Gear? Increases all damage done using TMGs. Sword, Partisan, WL, Knuckle, and T.Dagger Gears all increase the effectiveness of their respective weapon. D.Saber Gear at least follows with everything else a Fighter does. Wand Gear is just... an extra, separate thing that clashes with the very method of building the Gear itself.

If wands are going to be weaker AND slower than rods, at least make the gear a massive explosion that does a ton of damage and depletes the entire gauge. If wands actually cast faster than any other weapon in the game, but kept the damage penalty, it would make more sense to have a tiny yet persistent situational damage boost.