PDA

View Full Version : The effectiveness of War Cry



Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 12:11 AM
Kay so I did some testing on this and gonna be totally honest it works exactly as they said it should. The only noticeable thing about it and we all know is the sucky range as which it has to be cast.

I will say this War cry is NOT MEANT FOR MOBS sure you can cast it on them but this skill is pretty much boss worthy if anything and it should only be used on bosses sense mobs die in seconds. I recorded some footage of previous testing showing how it works you can pretty much keep a boss locked on you and FO's and RA w/e can just go crazy its pretty funny.

Well anyway this is just to prove that it does work im not saying to get it,but rather just wanted to share it with people in case they do wanna try it out. I for one will be maining it now sense I love holding aggro for my parties and it works wonders during AQ' boss fights.

Also another cool thing and I wanted to test that was if War Cry would work upon be killed and to my surprise it does hold as the time and duration is not canceled out UPON DEATH!? Pretty cool stuff you'll have to watch the DragonEX video though to see what im talking about.

Testing On Vol Dragon


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBVerjaCujM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBVerjaCujM

Testing on Quartz Dragon


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5D6S-F_5WA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5D6S-F_5WA

Tested on DragonEX,also tested to see if it would cancel War Cry upon death.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UNnxPAGyiw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UNnxPAGyiw

What I can say is this.

1: War Cry does work but the duration and it's buff are dead on being that they are both 30 sec Duration and 30 sec Cool down.

2: If you are a sec to late once War Cry has cooled down the boss will and immediately go after the high dps'er meaning if you're 1 sec to late and decided to re-cast when the boss is doing an animation atk upon said high dps'er then once his atk animation is done he will again come after you again look at the Quarts and or DragonEX battle for what im talking about.

3: War Cry has the range proc of a regular basic dash also upon using war cry on a mob(lets say you wanted to do this ofc) upon death of those mobs War Cry will not carry over upon said next spawned mobs if that makes anys sense to you.

Anyway that's what I've tested in just a few plays,but if anyone else has any info about it post away. Again this isn't to say get it it's to show that it does work I had an extra skill tree to play around with so I wanted to see for myself.

NoiseHERO
Apr 21, 2013, 12:29 AM
Nice research :0

Even if it was old news I ain't see anyone talking about it.

If I had the patience to level hunter I'd so make a tank-kun build. <_<;

Zorafim
Apr 21, 2013, 12:37 AM
I'm not sure I understood it from your post, but I think what you're saying is, Warcry works like taunt? It forces the enemy to attack you for a certain amount of time, and once that time is up, it goes on attacking the person it should be attacking?

DreamState83
Apr 21, 2013, 01:00 AM
I'm curious - would this prevent sub-bosses like caterdran from going underground and chasing somoene way off to the side when they emerge? I get tired of repositioning every 3 seconds :P

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 01:10 AM
I'm not sure I understood it from your post, but I think what you're saying is, Warcry works like taunt? It forces the enemy to attack you for a certain amount of time, and once that time is up, it goes on attacking the person it should be attacking?

Yes War Cry is a taunt meaning once used you will hold enemy aggro but once the duration is done including you didn't alot of damage the enemy will go for the person who did the most damage out of the group.

I'll explain it slow.

The way aggro works is that the person whom has done the higest damage per second=DPS will then accumulate aggro from said enemy this as well works for bosses as if that 1 person out of the 4/4 party did the most out of all of you will have the boss tailing said person.

But to also note back then War Cry did not work like this back then before they made adjustments even if you used war cry even with the 200% hate modifier if one person out dpsed you and did the most damage war Cry had no use it was useless back then. Now that they have fixed it it works really nice now.


I'm curious - would this prevent sub-bosses like caterdran from going underground and chasing somoene way off to the side when they emerge? I get tired of repositioning every 3 seconds :P

Yes it can actually I tested that during an AQ with 2 friends of mine Midori and Cambrian it does prevent them from diggin in only when the duration is over will they go after the higher dps'er lets also include that said dps'er who did the most damage is far away so yeah it does.

Coatl
Apr 21, 2013, 01:21 AM
So War Cry is pretty much just meant to keep Aggro off the FOs and RAs?

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 01:25 AM
So War Cry is pretty much just meant to keep Aggro off the FOs and RAs?

^BINGO pretty much how it works.

Not onyl that comes in handy when you wanna revive someone too as a person whom told me about the war cry said.

Rayokarna
Apr 21, 2013, 01:40 AM
The best thing about War Cry is that in some cases it causes the bosses' AI to freeze while it's trying to decide who it's going after. I've had times where the boss will get ready to attack, I use War Cry so it stops what it does and then decides what to do next which gives a good 20 to 30 second window.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 01:59 AM
The best thing about War Cry is that in some cases it causes the bosses' AI to freeze while it's trying to decide who it's going after. I've had times where the boss will get ready to attack, I use War Cry so it stops what it does and then decides what to do next which gives a good 20 to 30 second window.

^This had the same thing happend during a Vol fight kinda quirky but at the very least can be abused somewhat if timed right.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 02:15 AM
So War Cry is pretty much just meant to keep Aggro off the FOs and RAs?

Pretty useful for Ra/Fi or Fo/Fi

And if it keeps bosses from switching targets and running all over the room, Gu/Ra won't have to chase as much. Although you still have to do that even when solo.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 02:58 AM
Pretty useful for Ra/Fi or Fo/Fi

And if it keeps bosses from switching targets and running all over the room, Gu/Ra won't have to chase as much. Although you still have to do that even when solo.

But RA/FI and FO/FI cannot use war cry unless they sub HU. Now if your talking about showtime then I dunno never used that.

Shadowth117
Apr 21, 2013, 03:10 AM
But RA/FI and FO/FI cannot use war cry unless they sub HU. Now if your talking about showtime then I dunno never used that.


Useful for them to not have aggro so they can simply continue their onslaught.


Anyways, I would actually argue its not depending on what's happening. Often times such players would want the boss facing them for brave stance and not being able to influence the boss themselves can cause problems. I personally would rather have it going at me as a Force class, but that's just me.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 03:10 AM
I mean for Wise Stance destruction. And Fi/Hu glass cannons that don't have War Cry

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 03:26 AM
Anyways, I would actually argue its not depending on what's happening. Often times such players would want the boss facing them for brave stance and not being able to influence the boss themselves can cause problems. I personally would rather have it going at me as a Force class, but that's just me.

Shouldn't be a problem as wise stance does more than brave stance anyway. Also I wouldn't say argument unless you want every confrontation to be one than I wouldn't know your case on that. Debatable or discussed sure anytime also lets also say such said players dun care for the boss not facing them.

Also you are forgetting how the new war cry works now sense it keep the aggro on the HU. So lets say the HU cast's it now the boss is facing him all he has to do is JG and atk like normal staying in that one spot and trust me that isn't hard to do all the FO's have to do is follow accordingly by getting in position so that they are facing the boss as well and can cast away with nothing nullifying there brave stance or w/e it si your afraid of it nullifying as I said before sense it works like it said it should now sense the patch there is no need for worry over brave stance.

Though this can be said for Quarts as he does like to zp back ad forth but come on that shouldn't even be a problem srsly your worrying over one little technicality vs the survival of a whole party,but then again this wasn't about how it effects classes this was about how it works now vs how it worked then.. We are veering off topic though which isn't good.

@Unlucky I gotcha threw me off for a bit.

Shadowth117
Apr 21, 2013, 03:40 AM
Shouldn't be a problem as wise stance does more than brave stance anyway. Also I wouldn't say argument unless you want every confrontation to be one than I wouldn't know your case on that. Debatable or discussed sure anytime also lets also say such said players dun care for the boss not facing them.

@Unlucky I gotcha threw me off for a bit.

The point isn't whether it does more or not. If you're not controlling the boss yourself, you don't decide which way its going to face. The drawer is going to run out of room and the boss is going to go the other way, and this is ignoring the fact that most bosses have a tendency to do whatever the hell they want overall anyway. If you don't know which way its facing than its difficult to do much. Ra and/or Gu is especially hurt by this no matter what since they generally rely on being able to hit the weak point for their damage which just happens to be the head most of the time which just happens to be in the front usually. And maybe not so much for Fo or Te, but Hu and Fi players other than the one drawing may have issues confronting said enemy if another player is drawing it for the same reason.

As for my language, the definition of argue from dictionary.com is to "to present reasons for or against a thing". So lets get our vocabulary correct before we go accusing others of showing aggression.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 03:51 AM
Yeah it introduces proper tank and spank gameplay, where the War Cry user has to be mindful of facing so the DPS classes can properly engage the target. Turn the boss if it does a frontal AoE, but otherwise keep it still.

Unless the Hunter is trying to be funny by walking the boss into a corner away from everyone else, the other players shouldn't have much of a problem.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 03:54 AM
The point isn't whether it does more or not. If you're not controlling the boss yourself, you don't decide which way its going to face. The drawer is going to run out of room and the boss is going to go the other way, and this is ignoring the fact that most bosses have a tendency to do whatever the hell they want overall anyway. If you don't know which way its facing than its difficult to do much. Ra and/or Gu is especially hurt by this no matter what since they generally rely on being able to hit the weak point for their damage which just happens to be the head most of the time which just happens to be in the front usually. And maybe not so much for Fo or Te, but Hu and Fi players other than the one drawing may have issues confronting said enemy if another player is drawing it for the same reason.

As for my language, the definition of argue from dictionary.com is to "to present reasons for or against a thing". So lets get our vocabulary correct before we go accusing others of showing aggression.

Actually no its to present for or against debate hence forth as I said before debate yes pretty sure I know my def of it as for you you might wanna stay in the books.

In any case as I said before you forget out the new war cry works this is also coming from a person who doesn't even use it to further prove my point.

Again you say he is gonna move out of room which is funny because the bosses havea sluggish way of turning around after doing a so called atk pretty easy to get the boss facing another way for the said puller to adjust and that is easy so don't give me that pls dun I demonstrated that in the vid INCLUDING you took the time to even look(which im sure you didn't knowing how you are).

Also you act like you can take what a maybe a few steps to the side vs the slowness of the bosses to get back into position? Srsly your are arguing just to hear yourself argue at this point.

We can debate this for as long as ya want as long as you refuse to keep thinking single minded and not think about all possible solutions then yeah your argument is forfeit.

Now can you pls debate without having to swear?

@Unlucky My point exactly no HU wouldn't purposely keep the damage away from the other players even I wouldn't as I showed int he vid.

Shadowth117
Apr 21, 2013, 04:48 AM
Actually no its to present for or against debate hence forth as I said before debate yes pretty sure I know my def of it as for you you might wanna stay in the books.

In any case as I said before you forget out the new war cry works this is also coming from a person who doesn't even use it to further prove my point.

Again you say he is gonna move out of room which is funny because the bosses havea sluggish way of turning around after doing a so called atk pretty easy to get the boss facing another way for the said puller to adjust and that is easy so don't give me that pls dun I demonstrated that in the vid INCLUDING you took the time to even look(which im sure you didn't knowing how you are).

Also you act like you can take what a maybe a few steps to the side vs the slowness of the bosses to get back into position? Srsly your are arguing just to hear yourself argue at this point.

We can debate this for as long as ya want as long as you refuse to keep thinking single minded and not think about all possible solutions then yeah your argument is forfeit.

Now can you pls debate without having to swear?

@Unlucky My point exactly no HU wouldn't purposely keep the damage away from the other players even I wouldn't as I showed int he vid.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argue?s=t

Please do read that. ^

For the record, I was able to say that because your videos show the bosses do what they... really always do. Run amok. And "taking a few steps to the side to get back into position"? If you're doing it right as you said, than that shouldn't need to happen correct?

Not to mention that for a party, these things were taken down very slowly. On Quartz, fire man wasn't even using dark techs which would have been much faster whatever tree he was using. I realize you're trying to showcase this, but I'd much to prefer seeing how it can be used effectively to take things down fast and efficiently. Otherwise, I don't see the advantages of it in normal play given how swiftly I know I can defeat bosses alone, much less in a party.

It is interesting to know more about this skill since its often ignored (arguably for good reason). Like for instance how it draws even on death which is something I've only seen enemies to do when a player is alone in battle before this. And the exact specifications of how it works were interesting to know as well.

But yeah, once again, please learn to read things properly. I think "do whatever the hell it wants" is a very nice figure of speech. Perhaps it gives off a bad connotation in some circles, but I find it to be a rather casual statement.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 04:59 AM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argue?s=t

Please do read that. ^

For the record, I was able to say that because your videos show the bosses do what they... really always do. Run amok. And "taking a few steps to the side to get back into position"? If you're doing it right as you said, than that shouldn't need to happen correct?

Not to mention that for a party, these things were taken down very slowly. On Quartz, fire man wasn't even using dark techs which would have been much faster whatever tree he was using. I realize you're trying to showcase this, but I'd much to prefer seeing how it can be used effectively to take things down fast and efficiently. Otherwise, I don't see the advantages of it in normal play given how swiftly I know I can defeat bosses alone, much less in a party.

It is interesting to know more about this skill since its often ignored (arguably for good reason). Like for instance how it draws even on death which is something I've only seen enemies to do when a player is alone in battle before this. And the exact specifications of how it works were interesting to know as well.

But yeah, once again, please learn to read things properly. I think "do whatever the hell it wants" is a very nice figure of speech. Perhaps it gives off a bad connotation in some circles, but I find it to be a rather casual statement.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/argue

^Pls do read it your in need of discipline....

Again your to fixated on things being taken down fast once again and I swear a hard head makes a soft ass excuse my language this was to show that War Cry works as it should(Man I hate repeating myself why you do this?) remind me how I am supposed to show how it's supposed to work if they kill it to fast? I want you to think on that let it sink a bit maybe then you will realize why she didn't use the correct techs I swear did you just come out of the ICU? Also pay attetion noticed how when I had the aggro I barely atked it even knowing I could haved raped the poor thing ,but again it was to TEST...AND..SHOW.

In any case you called it yourself you said ALONE AND NOT IN A PARTY GG guy. This wasn't about solo play but more about team play I said that myself. Again here you are going off topic not staying on topic because your pointing out your own selfish play style. Remind me who is it that needs to read before they post your sounding real hypocritical right now and it's funny indeed it is.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 05:58 AM
Your posts really are a pain to read.

I think using the strongest techs would be a better showcase of the usefulness of War Cry... Since it takes aggro even still.

You don't have to be so defensive over a term. It's hard to see, especially on PSO-W, but different opinions and input can all be valid and civil discussion on various points can be possible.

War Cry can be annoying if the top DPS is used to always having aggro, but now loses it and has to chase and turn when they never had to before. Can be.

Darki
Apr 21, 2013, 06:01 AM
Just to know, Does War Cry still triplicate the hate counter the user receives while it's active, or did they remove that in favor of the insta-taunt?

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 06:04 AM
The numbers are the same as before, so I would assume it still multiplies your Hate generation

Darki
Apr 21, 2013, 06:12 AM
War Cry can be annoying if the top DPS is used to always having aggro, but now loses it and has to chase and turn when they never had to before. Can be.

As a FO/HU that usually kills bosses both with melee and techs depending on the mood, I would say that it's something that depends on the tankers themselves as well as how much you're used to a combat style.

When I play with my girlfriend, who is not used to tank, when she gets the boss' aggro I have problems sometimes to target the enemy because of what you're talking about, since she circles around the enemy, dodges and kites them as any DPS player would probably do.

But one of my friends does play a full support/tank HU/TE and I gotta say I've never experienced any of the issues you're talking about. He keeps the bosses as inmobile as possible, doesn't turn around too much and usually keeps them in place by means of JG and just taking hits without attemping to attack the weak spots if they're not right on their faces. I can assure you that the monsters will move much less than if you're the one with the aggro, specially if the enemies don't have the weak spot right on the face and/or you're breaking their parts in other places that require you to move around.

A monster that likes to dance around like Quartz Dragon is going to do it regardless of who gets the aggro. But having someone that stays still in front of it just guarding when is not moving around in an attack is much more stable than any DPS build, since you will want to hit the boss and do damage (as you're supposed to be doing).

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 06:25 AM
As a FO/HU that usually kills bosses both with melee and techs depending on the mood, I would say that it's something that depends on the tankers themselves as well as how much you're used to a combat style.

When I play with my girlfriend, who is not used to tank, when she gets the boss' aggro I have problems sometimes to target the enemy because of what you're talking about, since she circles around the enemy, dodges and kites them as any DPS player would probably do.

But one of my friends does play a full support/tank HU/TE and I gotta say I've never experienced any of the issues you're talking about. He keeps the bosses as inmobile as possible, doesn't turn around too much and usually keeps them in place by means of JG and just taking hits without attemping to attack the weak spots if they're not right on their faces. I can assure you that the monsters will move much less than if you're the one with the aggro, specially if the enemies don't have the weak spot right on the face and/or you're breaking their parts in other places that require you to move around.

A monster that likes to dance around like Quartz Dragon is going to do it regardless of who gets the aggro. But having someone that stays still in front of it just guarding when is not moving around in an attack is much more stable than any DPS build, since you will want to hit the boss and do damage (as you're supposed to be doing).

^This this is the point I was trying to make its wasn't about tech and what not even I said you can keep a boss in one place if you used JG and War Cry in synch I couldn't have said it any other way.

You don't need the strongest tech to hold aggro as explained I only showed what and how it is now effective not how to use it in a party as that was not my aim.

Also you don't have to chase down the enemy when war cry's duration is done as all you have to do is cast it again simple talking about it way different than actually doing it and sense I've actually tested it I can say there is no chasing involved upon having to cast war cry over and over I assure of this.

@Unlucky no I was not defending my team I was defending how shadow miss-interpreted how War Cry effectiveness isn't useful vs her solo play as she called it.

Pls show me in my post where I started defending them.

Syklo
Apr 21, 2013, 06:31 AM
Interestingly, a thread about War Cry, which is an aggro-modifying skill, has triggered an unnecessary debate on the word "argue" and/or hate.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 06:34 AM
Interestingly, a thread about War Cry, which is an aggro-modifying skill, has triggered an unnecessary debate on the word "argue" and/or hate.

Sigh...Syklo what are we ever gonna do?

Syklo
Apr 21, 2013, 06:38 AM
Sigh...Syklo what are we ever gonna do?
....sleep?

Well that's what I'm about to do.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 06:49 AM
I can assure you that the monsters will move much less than if you're the one with the aggro.I don't really need to be convinced that it can be good or it can be bad. That was kind of what I said. Personally I'd rather someone take the aggro for kitties or dragons so I can bust some tail without circling constantly, though that can still happen even if I don't have it.


@Unlucky no I was not defending my team I was defending how shadow miss-interpreted how War Cry effectiveness isn't useful vs her solo play as she called it.

Term. "Argue." Just meaning "this is my stance." Doesn't have to be hostile, like you assumed it was.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 06:50 AM
I don't really need to be convinced that it can be good or it can be bad. That was kind of what I said. Personally I'd rather someone take the aggro for kitties or dragons so I can bust some tail without circling constantly, though that can still happen even if I don't have it.



Term. "Argue." Just meaning "this is my stance." Doesn't have to be hostile, like you assumed it was.

Never said it was hostile either like your assuming.

Narrillnezzurh
Apr 21, 2013, 01:08 PM
Never said it was hostile either like your assuming.

Then what did you mean? The definition you provided was essentially the same as his.

As for Shadow, it's unreasonable to assume you'd have control of the boss in a party of four anyways, so war cry would only be a benefit for positional classes.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 01:12 PM
Then what did you mean? The definition you provided was essentially the same as his.

As for Shadow, it's unreasonable to assume you'd have control of the boss in a party of four anyways, so war cry would only be a benefit for positional classes.

No our def were not the same even Shadow said that himself if you read his post. Whilst he said to argue this isn't something worth arguing ,but debatable and or up to be discussed.

Shadowth117
Apr 21, 2013, 01:13 PM
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/argue

^Pls do read it your in need of discipline....

Again your to fixated on things being taken down fast once again and I swear a hard head makes a soft ass excuse my language this was to show that War Cry works as it should(Man I hate repeating myself why you do this?) remind me how I am supposed to show how it's supposed to work if they kill it to fast? I want you to think on that let it sink a bit maybe then you will realize why she didn't use the correct techs I swear did you just come out of the ICU? Also pay attetion noticed how when I had the aggro I barely atked it even knowing I could haved raped the poor thing ,but again it was to TEST...AND..SHOW.

In any case you called it yourself you said ALONE AND NOT IN A PARTY GG guy. This wasn't about solo play but more about team play I said that myself. Again here you are going off topic not staying on topic because your pointing out your own selfish play style. Remind me who is it that needs to read before they post your sounding real hypocritical right now and it's funny indeed it is.

Well now I understand where the so-called hostility you mentioned is coming from. You're asking me if I came out of the intensive care which is more than a bit insulting. Therefore, I'll try to ignore that bit.

It seems only natural to take things down as fast as possible. To get the most drops and therefore the best chance at rares, it is necessary to be as efficient as possible with all swiftness. If it takes a group 4 minutes to take down a boss and another group 30 seconds with the same amount of breakage and such in a repeatable mission (as most are), its clear which group is likely to get more rares. This is how drops are in games.

This is my point with my talk of going it alone. My point was that with more than just me, it would be even faster. And as I said and should be clear, more fights = more drops which is always nice.

Anyways, a better way to illustrate your point in my opinion would have been to use level 60 Advance Quest bosses. These bosses take longer than any other normal bosses right now (normal being not Dark Falz Elder although he can be taken down very swiftly too in some parties). This way, you could demonstrate how effective War Cry is in actual play. Once again, I understand the purpose of testing. That was an interesting thing to see on your part. But I'm also interested, admittedly more so, in whether this is actually applicable or not.

Edit:
@Narrillnezzurh:
Actually, it generally ends up being one person drawing the boss even in full groups. I've often found myself pulling even with poor equipment in 4 person teams and even MPAs. It won't always happen, but since the one drawing is the one doing the most DPS anyway normally and the best position for DPS, unlike many MMO's, is generally in front of the boss, it seems odd to me to take that away from them.

ShinMaruku
Apr 21, 2013, 01:17 PM
I find it comical that srk has more tact than here... Goddamn SRK....

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 01:19 PM
Well now I understand where the so-called hostility you mentioned is coming from. You're asking me if I came out of the intensive care which is more than a bit insulting. Therefore, I'll try to ignore that bit.

It seems only natural to take things down as fast as possible. To get the most drops and therefore the best chance at rares, it is necessary to be as efficient as possible with all swiftness. If it takes a group 4 minutes to take down a boss and another group 30 seconds with the same amount of breakage and such in a repeatable mission (as most are), its clear which group is likely to get more rares. This is how drops are in games.

This is my point with my talk of going it alone. My point was that with more than just me, it would be even faster. And as I said and should be clear, more fights = more drops which is always nice.

Anyways, a better way to illustrate your point in my opinion would have been to use level 60 Advance Quest bosses. These bosses take longer than any other normal bosses right now (normal being not Dark Falz Elder although he can be taken down very swiftly too in some parties). This way, you could demonstrate how effective War Cry is in actual play. Once again, I understand the purpose of testing. That was an interesting thing to see on your part. But I'm also interested, admittedly more so, in whether this is actually applicable or not.

Thank you I only wish it could have turned out like this before hand also to note S rank also influences drops I notice you didn't say that,but I will assume you were only pointing out the most important fact(cause im sure you knew about S ranking influencing drops).

Yes when I get around to it I would be more than happy to demonstrate War Cry in actual party play For Real this time around,but also remember it's not mob worth,but boss mandatory only.

I'll get around to it when I can.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 01:41 PM
Thank you I only wish it could have turned out like this before hand also to note S rank also influences drops I notice you didn't say that,but I will assume you were only pointing out the most important fact(cause im sure you knew about S ranking influencing drops).

Yes when I get around to it I would be more than happy to demonstrate War Cry in actual party play For Real this time around,but also remember it's not mob worth,but boss mandatory only.

I'll get around to it when I can.
Well it would have if you didn't blow up on Shadow for a choice of words...

Anyway, just wanna chime in with a slight correction. S ranking doesn't directly influence drops, but it shares a common factor. It's all kills. Lots of kills = more drops AND higher ranking. If you kill a lot and die, returning to campship, you can still get increased drops. If you get an S rank but kill two bosses back-to-back, your first crystal will be plentiful, but your second one will not be.

I'd also like to see more gameplay videos featuring War Cry. Just too bad you can't go full offense, all weapon Gears, and get War Cry too. Gotta trade something for it.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 01:47 PM
Well it would have if you didn't blow up on Shadow for a choice of words...

Anyway, just wanna chime in with a slight correction. S ranking doesn't directly influence drops, but it shares a common factor. It's all kills. Lots of kills = more drops AND higher ranking. If you kill a lot and die, returning to campship, you can still get increased drops. If you get an S rank but kill two bosses back-to-back, your first crystal will be plentiful, but your second one will not be.

I'd also like to see more gameplay videos featuring War Cry. Just too bad you can't go full offense, all weapon Gears, and get War Cry too. Gotta trade something for it.

All I said was that I don't know his/her case on arguing,but that it is debatable or able to be discussed. Now I can understand if I said "Whoa guy chill out don't be so quick to arguing over something as simple as this".

He himself said that the choice of words could have bought on confusion and im alrdy aware of that.

Also again S ranking does influence drops BUT let me also say it doesn't influence the CORE drops from bosses this also counts towards rank just to be clear.

Zipzo
Apr 21, 2013, 03:19 PM
To be honest I think even the suggestion that not having the bosses attention is an effective increase in DPS is debate-able in and of itself. As has been illustrated many bosses' destruction speed benefit from being hit in the face, in which case everyone is needing to be positioned in front thus making the bosses facing irrelevant and as a result...a Wacry specced hunter.

Bosses move erratically. No matter who they are targeting in this game, it's the nature of the mechanics. Unlike in a traditional targeting MMO where the boss is rarely capable of hitting anyone other than their target save for "cleave" style abilities (which is usually the reason for facing the boss away), in PSO2 the entire bosses body is dangerous to come in contact with while it is moving, so folks are generally prepared to dodge and move in the event that the boss is mobile anyways.

Many of the bosses have animations that make them difficult to hit such as charges or going underground, where a tank is wholly useless anyway. Otherwise, their ground based basic attacks are of no consequence to ranged classes who simply stand out of range of tail wags or claw swipes despite the bosses target.


You can look to TERA for action based combat tanking for an example of it done right. Bosses are ruthless and fast, you can die in one hit and you don't get a massive invulnerability window for being knocked down thus the bosses attention is actually IMPORTANT because without one the parties destruction is imminent. This is not so in PSO2, you can murder the crap out of bosses WITHOUT A HUNTER at all. In fact hunter is basically laughed at in the face of Force/Ranger effectiveness. This is why I find Warcry to be pretty useless.

NoiseHERO
Apr 21, 2013, 03:27 PM
why ya'll same 6 people always arguin' about classes. :0

~Aya~
Apr 21, 2013, 03:29 PM
why ya'll same 6 people always arguin' about classes. :0


Ima argue with you in song if you keep this ↑.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 03:42 PM
To be honest I think even the suggestion that not having the bosses attention is an effective increase in DPS is debate-able in and of itself. As has been illustrated many bosses' destruction speed benefit from being hit in the face, in which case everyone is needing to be positioned in front thus making the bosses facing irrelevant and as a result...a Wacry specced hunter.

Bosses move erratically. No matter who they are targeting in this game, it's the nature of the mechanics. Unlike in a traditional targeting MMO where the boss is rarely capable of hitting anyone other than their target save for "cleave" style abilities (which is usually the reason for facing the boss away), in PSO2 the entire bosses body is dangerous to come in contact with while it is moving, so folks are generally prepared to dodge and move in the event that the boss is mobile anyways.

Many of the bosses have animations that make them difficult to hit such as charges or going underground, where a tank is wholly useless anyway. Otherwise, their ground based basic attacks are of no consequence to ranged classes who simply stand out of range of tail wags or claw swipes despite the bosses target.


You can look to TERA for action based combat tanking for an example of it done right. Bosses are ruthless and fast, you can die in one hit and you don't get a massive invulnerability window for being knocked down thus the bosses attention is actually IMPORTANT because without one the parties destruction is imminent. This is not so in PSO2, you can murder the crap out of bosses WITHOUT A HUNTER at all. In fact hunter is basically laughed at in the face of Force/Ranger effectiveness. This is why I find Warcry to be pretty useless.

I respect that opinion and outlook but this is always not the case no one party of 4/4 is the same as another this to also plays a part in that category so no as it stands War Cry is not useless at all in a certain standpoint as far as pos2 is concerned.

Also yes I have played Tera and a party can indeed be devastated if no tank is apparent like BAM's for example being a prime example as well as perfected dodging,but yes Tera is not PSO2 sadly.

Again not all parties kill bosses lethally and as fast keep that in mind as well we must think about all possible solutions instead of thinking single minded at times not saying you are just putting that out there.

Walkure
Apr 21, 2013, 05:05 PM
Aggro really isn't important even in most boss/mini-boss scenarios.

Rockbear, Gwanada, Ragne, De Malmoth, Tranmizer, Vardha, Zeshradya, Goronzoran, Falz Hands, and Elder have pretty much no real use for hate; at most, you dodge some of their attacks until they expose their massive weakpoint, and then they get beat the hell down. Aggro is almost totally inconsequential on these bosses. So like half the bosses and minibosses in this game don't have much use for forced aggro.

Banthers, you can either break parts off them if you don't have hate, or just Over End their face after a roar to either establish hate or finish them off as a hunter. It really doesn't matter too much since their roar gives them so much vulnerability.

Wolgada-ass Wolgada is going to be a jumping jackass regardless of whoever is holding hate.

Catadraan/l shouldn't be burrowing that much, regardless of who has hate, really. You can dodge most of its attacks by walking towards it. Or jumping. Maybe that's an issue for rangers or gunners, but that's definitely not for melee and tech classes.

The dragons either have parts breakable that you can focus on instead, or are either just as easy/hard to stay in front of regardless of who has hate. It's not really going to change Vol Dragon's tendency to stay in place and roar/fire geyser/tail swing, Quartz's Dragon's tendency to literally fly all over the place, etc.

It feels like the only definite use is on Hunar, which I can agree it'd help a hunter do damage to him (while still letting the same amount of part breaking go on since his sword breaks fast anyways).

Even then, you're spending SP on one of the more SP-tight classes at the moment to only definitely improve efficiency on the least-common non-rare boss in the game, assuming you don't already have hate in your party in the first place. "Niche" is kind of an understatement here.

There's a pretty good benefit to one point in WC, I guess. If I'm understanding the simulator right, that'll force aggro for 10s, which can (possibly) let you land an Over End or something to establish hate with a 2x hate generated multiplier. Sounds like a reasonable use, especially if your other options are something like Fury Critical or whatnot.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 05:35 PM
Aggro really isn't important even in most boss/mini-boss scenarios.

Rockbear, Gwanada, Ragne, De Malmoth, Tranmizer, Vardha, Zeshradya, Goronzoran, Falz Hands, and Elder have pretty much no real use for hate; at most, you dodge some of their attacks until they expose their massive weakpoint, and then they get beat the hell down. Aggro is almost totally inconsequential on these bosses. So like half the bosses and minibosses in this game don't have much use for forced aggro.

Banthers, you can either break parts off them if you don't have hate, or just Over End their face after a roar to either establish hate or finish them off as a hunter. It really doesn't matter too much since their roar gives them so much vulnerability.

Wolgada-ass Wolgada is going to be a jumping jackass regardless of whoever is holding hate.

Catadraan/l shouldn't be burrowing that much, regardless of who has hate, really. You can dodge most of its attacks by walking towards it. Or jumping. Maybe that's an issue for rangers or gunners, but that's definitely not for melee and tech classes.

The dragons either have parts breakable that you can focus on instead, or are either just as easy/hard to stay in front of regardless of who has hate. It's not really going to change Vol Dragon's tendency to stay in place and roar/fire geyser/tail swing, Quartz's Dragon's tendency to literally fly all over the place, etc.

It feels like the only definite use is on Hunar, which I can agree it'd help a hunter do damage to him (while still letting the same amount of part breaking go on since his sword breaks fast anyways).

Even then, you're spending SP on one of the more SP-tight classes at the moment to only definitely improve efficiency on the least-common non-rare boss in the game, assuming you don't already have hate in your party in the first place. "Niche" is kind of an understatement here.

There's a pretty good benefit to one point in WC, I guess. If I'm understanding the simulator right, that'll force aggro for 10s, which can (possibly) let you land an Over End or something to establish hate with a 2x hate generated multiplier. Sounds like a reasonable use, especially if your other options are something like Fury Critical or whatnot.

Your missing the whole point of war cry and what is does also War cry does not give you 10 secs it gives you 30 secs Duration at 30secs cool down more than enough time for your party to get into position,res,buff or w/e it is they need to do strategic use of war cry can def be key to a lot of AQ boss fights as Shadow and unlucky say we are not talking about FREE EXPLORATION.

But even in that case it can stil be used again not all parties are the same and you are thinking single minded and not about all possible solutions as well which kinda pains me how some dun actually think and instead think from there point of view and not others.

I accept your opinion though,but your missing the point of what im explaining.

Lebensohl
Apr 21, 2013, 05:37 PM
I agree with Walkure. The uses now seem very limited now however what is important to note is that the framework for a raid is available because now a class can reliably hold aggro. Hopefully future updates will add some sort of raid content that will make war cry essential.

Blundy
Apr 21, 2013, 05:43 PM
seems like it works to solve all those "hunters have to chase crap running from them" annoyances, all though, it takes 10 points so i dunno.

nice that it's actually doing what it's supposed to be doing now.

Walkure
Apr 21, 2013, 05:44 PM
Your missing the whole point of war cry and what is does also War cry does not give you 10 secs it gives you 30 secs Duration at 30secs cool down more than enough time for your party to get into position,res,buff or w/e it is they need to do strategic use of war cry can def be key to a lot of AQ boss fights as Shadow and unlucky say we are not talking about FREE EXPLORATION.
I'm discussing it as a one-point investment, as implied by the first sentence of that paragraph.

The 10s gained from one point would be enough to give you almost all of that benefit. If the "hate" described by
http://i.imgur.com/sxxhHPx.png is BONUS hate, rather than a multiplier (I'm not really sure which) then landing an Over End with Warcry up should be enough for it.


But even in that case it can stil be used again not all parties are the same and you are thinking single minded and not about all possible solutions as well which kinda pains me how some dun actually think and instead think from there point of view and not others.
I'm giving it a consideration as a one-point skill. It comes at a pretty big cost to MAX. Where, exactly, are you inferring that I'm not giving it ANY consideration?

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 05:56 PM
I'm discussing it as a one-point investment, as implied by the first sentence of that paragraph.

The 10s gained from one point would be enough to give you almost all of that benefit. If the "hate" described by
http://i.imgur.com/sxxhHPx.png is BONUS hate, rather than a multiplier (I'm not really sure which) then landing an Over End with Warcry up should be enough for it.


I'm giving it a consideration as a one-point skill. It comes at a pretty big cost to MAX. Where, exactly, are you inferring that I'm not giving it ANY consideration?

Not actually sense all the important skills are on the left side giving the lvl 60 cap you are not gimping yourself at all I have the tree to prove it,

http://i33.tinypic.com/28u0bo7.jpg

Now I can actually say your talking from your point of view and as far as your skill tree is concerned again I advise you to think about all possible solutions.

Also you wouldnt use OVEREND in an AQ now would you? Why because of the potential threat of being 1hit koed or w/e other possible outcome that may take. Instead the max war cry would be enough and instead of over ending you would in deed use other save approach PA's.

Judging from the way and how you would use war cry your not a very exp HU players I've mained HU/FI for a longgggg time and know ful well how Over end works and the penalties it suffers.

Sure you can't max furystance but I got 9 into fury combo+ more than enough of an onslaught

Walkure
Apr 21, 2013, 06:20 PM
Not actually sense all the important skills are on the left side giving the lvl 60 cap you are not gimping yourself at all I have the tree to prove it,

Now I can actually say your talking from your point of view and as far as your skill tree is concerned again I advise you to think about all possible solutions.
Compared to
http://i.imgur.com/WY1MjtG.png
Which has 2 SP free, that's a ~9% damage difference, which is a pretty big deal I'd say.


Also you wouldnt use OVEREND in an AQ now would you? Why because of the potential threat of being 1hit koed or w/e other possible outcome that may take.There are plenty of opportunities where you can use an Over End without getting hit. I use it all the time on Banther and Vol in AQs without a problem. Quartz roaring or whiffing when he hits the ground is usually a good enough opportunity.

I usually take them when available because Over End is freaking broken as hell.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 06:28 PM
seems like it works to solve all those "hunters have to chase crap running from them" annoyances, all though, it takes 10 points so i dunno.

nice that it's actually doing what it's supposed to be doing now.

Well it's not really a pull, so anything that would back away even if you're solo or have aggro... will still run away, making you chase it. And just having it on isn't enough, so it's worthless outside of boss fights. You actually have to actively use it on things to actually taunt them.

In boss fights, it might not even be strictly an improvement. I'd like to see it properly used and compared to alternatives that didn't invest in War Cry. I've heard a couple people now say it's legit, but is it effective?

I mean, anything Ranger will attack breakable parts, the head, or another weak point. Force and Hunters will attack breakables and weak points. Only really Fighter should be attacking the rear more often than the front, so how much can a mixed party benefit from a dedicated War Cry user? Granted, Fighter is a universal sub (though less so for Ranger now), but would an all-Fighter party be better off with a tank?

Hu/Fi, Fi/Hu, Fo/Fi, Ra/Fi. War Cry Hunter tanks the boss the best he can with Brave/Fury and hitting only the nose of the boss. The rest of the party switches between Wise for the rear parts, and Brave for the front parts/head/infection/other weak point (possibly Wise for this instead).

If both of the melee characters are equally geared, with identical skill trees, and neither had War Cry, and let's say they outdamage the other party members. Aggro will flip to whoever is currently using Wise Stance since that is the only difference between the two. Now they switch to Brave and tank the boss until it switches again. Is this clearly worse off than one of them losing 10SP worth of attack skills (up to 5% more damage, or 10% if we remove Guard Stance as well) to stabilize aggro?

What if the Ranger is tanking the boss? He'll have to Roll or double-Step to avoid death, as well as taking backing up a bit to tag breakable parts with WB. This will make the boss more mobile than if a Hunter was tanking and Just Guarding. Is it a big enough difference though? They can't really Homing Emission the back parts, and aggro isn't guaranteed, but is raw damage the better "tank"?

Now a Fo/Te with maxed Light/Dark and EMW, or a Fo/Fi with Brave and pure Flame/Bolt as a DPS tank. Mirage Escape is super safe, so just a little back and forth can make for a great melee range evasion tank. Place a DoT or an autotarget lockon to hit any part of the boss from anywhere and that boss isn't going to move much more than a War Crying Guard tank, letting the other party members do whatever they want.

Without War Cry, whoever is top DPS is essentially playing as if they were soloing, with the other party members playing as if the top DPS was using War Cry. If the other members prefer to have aggro, all they have to do is stand next to the top DPS and pretend. If they don't want aggro, they just stand opposite to the top DPS.

The only time I see War Cry actually benefiting a party is if two or more players have similar damage output, and if one of them wants to attack the boss's rear.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 06:29 PM
Compared to
http://i.imgur.com/WY1MjtG.png
Which has 2 SP free, that's a ~9% damage difference, which is a pretty big deal I'd say.

There are plenty of opportunities where you can use an Over End without getting hit. I use it all the time on Banther and Vol in AQs without a problem. Quartz roaring or whiffing when he hits the ground is usually a good enough opportunity.

I usually take them when available because Over End is freaking broken as hell.

Again I keep tellign you it's not about you its the party not you party sheesh.

You keep telling me what you would do and how you would do thing when I keep saying this is about how it can help the party as a whole being said person wanted to use it if you would read my first post I outlined that.

As far as that build is concerned that is the exact same build I have 2 of my trees are for testing purposes only that is all.

gigawuts
Apr 21, 2013, 06:36 PM
Again I keep tellign you it's not about you its the party not you party sheesh.

You keep telling me what you would do and how you would do thing when I keep saying this is about how it can help the party as a whole being said person wanted to use it if you would read my first post I outlined that.

As far as that build is concerned that is the exact same build I have 2 of my trees are for testing purposes only that is all.

If you're going to make threads like these could you try and keep the run-on sentences to a minimum?

This thread practically gave me a headache, and I gave up trying to figure out what you were saying by page 3.

UnLucky
Apr 21, 2013, 06:44 PM
Zen, why is your Fury Combo not maxed? That's the greatest damage increase available to Hunters other than certain Gears and the first point in Fury Stance.

Also Fury Stance Up is better than JA Bonus since you don't have to JA and it's the same damage boost. Unless you use Guard Stance or something.

Walkure
Apr 21, 2013, 06:52 PM
The only time I see War Cry actually benefiting a party is if two or more players have similar damage output, and if one of them wants to attack the boss's rear.That'd only really happen with a significant effect on like a Quartz or EX Dragon, since those can have exposed weak points on both sides.

If they're doing identical damage, c.p., and one is attacking the weaker spot on the front like on a Banther or Vol Dragon, then they'll tend to retain aggro.

If there's a weak point on the butt, like Cata or Transmizer, there's not really any benefit to going brave stance. If there's only a weak spot on the face/head, then there'd be little point to wise stance.

You could have something like Ragne switching aggro targets pretty often, but then again it's Ragne; who cares what he's targeting?



Again I keep tellign you it's not about you its the party not you party sheesh.

You keep telling me what you would do and how you would do thing when I keep saying this is about how it can help the party as a whole being said person wanted to use it if you would read my first post I outlined that.

As far as that build is concerned that is the exact same build I have 2 of my trees are for testing purposes only that is all.Dude, I'm not making any real judgments about you or your build; I'm questioning whether maxed Warcry is REALLY worth that chunk of damage being lost.

Zenobia
Apr 21, 2013, 06:59 PM
If you're going to make threads like these could you try and keep the run-on sentences to a minimum?

This thread practically gave me a headache, and I gave up trying to figure out what you were saying by page 3.

What I was trying to say is that how war cry can be beneficial to other parties,but ppl kept coming in with how I or my party does this or that when I wasn't even talking about that yeah I kept repeating myself honestly idk why either maybe I should have ignored idk.

I wanted them to actually think outside the box for once but it's falling on deaf ears really.

@Lucky That is nothing more than the test build I was using and no I don't use guard stance my real build is full offense non cookie cutter glass cannon. Even with that build I showed I have np with holding aggro and I JG a lot.

@Walkure my apologies I though you were pushing aside how I was explaining things.

Rayokarna
Apr 21, 2013, 08:56 PM
For me the Guard Stance + War Cry change is probably the best thing in that patch balance wise (Over looking Fury Stance damage stuff that everyone knows about). It's a shame nothing really requires tanking in this game. Saying that War Cry helps tagging Weak Shot on weak areas instead of chasing the enemy for a good shot.

Cypher_9
Apr 23, 2013, 04:18 AM
Actually BEING the one who was apart of this test along side Zanobia... I find it REALLY entertaining how one-sided every statement is... LOL

On a lighter note, most would fail to see the true purpose of each class and use cookie cutter methods that makes it boring to use in the end... Sakai never wanted this... ._.

Now laugh, and grow fat!

Angelo
Apr 23, 2013, 07:11 AM
I've been a WarCry Hunter since beta, so I can pretty much confirm what the OP is saying here.

In fact I had a close Japanese friend translate a very lengthy complaint on how to improve WarCry and sure as shit it was given a buff in the next patch. It made me smile; they're listening. I had always prided myself on being a Guard Stance + WarCry HU and wished to have more utility.

Zipzo
Apr 23, 2013, 07:16 AM
Actually BEING the one who was apart of this test along side Zanobia... I find it REALLY entertaining how one-sided every statement is... LOL

On a lighter note, most would fail to see the true purpose of each class and use cookie cutter methods that makes it boring to use in the end... Sakai never wanted this... ._.

Now laugh, and grow fat!

For being someone who was actually present for the tests you sure managed to add nothing to the conversation.

I think we all appreciate the effort Zen went through to toggle and play with a skill nobody really wants to get for its cost, but there's no reason to get blasphemous or defensive because its not like any of us were saying his experimentation was a waste of time, so much that there's still no credible reason why the skill is at all useful. He could interpret that as having wasted his time I guess but the sentiment is different. Again I understand why Zan will be inclined to defend Warcy to the bitter end here...but practicality takes a huge leap over Warcry in this circumstance, more than his experimentation provided.

Zenobia
Apr 23, 2013, 09:18 AM
For being someone who was actually present for the tests you sure managed to add nothing to the conversation.

I think we all appreciate the effort Zen went through to toggle and play with a skill nobody really wants to get for its cost, but there's no reason to get blasphemous or defensive because its not like any of us were saying his experimentation was a waste of time, so much that there's still no credible reason why the skill is at all useful. He could interpret that as having wasted his time I guess but the sentiment is different. Again I understand why Zan will be inclined to defend Warcy to the bitter end here...but practicality takes a huge leap over Warcry in this circumstance, more than his experimentation provided.

Nah I wasn't defending it at all just throwing it out there in case others wanted to try it that's it my first post explained everything down to the very bone marrow and that is about it.

Zipzo
Apr 23, 2013, 11:12 AM
Nah I wasn't defending it at all just throwing it out there in case others wanted to try it that's it my first post explained everything down to the very bone marrow and that is about it.

I personally love MMO tanking so Id like to see the skill have more of a presence and purpose, so I definitely appreciate the research.

gigawuts
Apr 23, 2013, 11:23 AM
If war cry was a 10 minute skill like stances, and had a visible AOE circle like the fish PB that increased aggro over time regardless of damage dealt, then there was another skill somewhere below it that had an HP recovery bonus of some kind (large or small, passive or active, from damage dealt like elder pain or just general HP regen, something of any kind), I could see it having a lot more use.

But in its current state...the game just doesn't really demand it, you know?

edit: What I'm getting at is...why sacrifice universally useful skills, or buy a skilltree specifically for aggro, when it's only marginally useful a very tiny fraction of the time you play unless you're really into that sort of thing? Compare it to a bolt tree vs. fire tree for Force. Those have two clear and distinct abilities and roles, and are very useful a large amount of time. Tanking and aggro...not so much.

Cypher_9
Apr 23, 2013, 11:25 AM
For being someone who was actually present for the tests you sure managed to add nothing to the conversation.

To just say the same thing Zanobia said? But from my perceptive... I guess that would help... LOL

UnLucky
Apr 23, 2013, 11:32 AM
Actually BEING the one who was apart of this test along side Zanobia... I find it REALLY entertaining how one-sided every statement is... LOL

On a lighter note, most would fail to see the true purpose of each class and use cookie cutter methods that makes it boring to use in the end... Sakai never wanted this... ._.
I hope you're including Zeno here when you say "every statement" cause there's a lot of unyielding stances despite the cry for "open mindedness." Hope I'm not being misconstrued, because I very much want War Cry to be a thing. I just don't know if it is yet.

But if the true purpose of Hunter is to tank, and Techer to support, they really aren't showing it. Maybe Sakai should make pursuing his vision worthwhile if he wants players to follow in his design.


I've been a WarCry Hunter since beta, so I can pretty much confirm what the OP is saying here.

I had always prided myself on being a Guard Stance + WarCry HU and wished to have more utility.
More utility by not benefiting your party at all? I don't really see the utility in taking maybe half the damage you would if you miss a guard, while losing 65-80% of your damage at all times. That's just me though.


I personally love MMO tanking so Id like to see the skill have more of a presence and purpose, so I definitely appreciate the research.
As an avid heal/support, I welcome the classic MMO paradigm with roles other than solely DPS. Not gonna force it into a game where it just doesn't fit, though. The whole point is to prop up your party enough to compensate for your loss in damage, which simply cannot happen in PSO2 as it is now. Going Guard Stance or buff bot is not viable here, unless you consider gimping your party and still completing missions to a minimum degree as viable.

gigawuts
Apr 23, 2013, 11:35 AM
Well, the way classes get to their role is via sufficient bonuses. Adding 5% on top of shifta's 20% is not sufficient. Especially not for 10 SP. Adding 15% more crits for another 10 SP? Not sufficient.

Only ONE aggro skill, with no expansions on the concept? Two if you count gunner? Both requiring fist pumps every 30 seconds? Absolutely NOT sufficient, in any way, shape, or form. They very blatantly are new to skilltree design if this is what they consider balanced and/or good.

Zipzo
Apr 23, 2013, 11:43 AM
Well, the way classes get to their role is via sufficient bonuses. Adding 5% on top of shifta's 20% is not sufficient. Especially not for 10 SP. Adding 15% more crits for another 10 SP? Not sufficient.

Only ONE aggro skill, with no expansions on the concept? Two if you count gunner? Both requiring fist pumps every 30 seconds? Absolutely NOT sufficient, in any way, shape, or form. They very blatantly are new to skilltree design if this is what they consider balanced and/or good.

Japan has a very small roster of natively developed MMORPGs
(although many MMOs from Korea have seen huge popularity, there haven't been any hugely popular japanese developed ones save for PSO, which did not have skill trees), so it's understandable that their understanding of a mechanically sound skill tree may not be...well...perfect to say the least, as I agree with this post entirely.

Cypher_9
Apr 23, 2013, 11:46 AM
I hope you're including Zeno here when you say "every statement" cause there's a lot of unyielding stances despite the cry for "open mindedness." Hope I'm not being misconstrued, because I very much want War Cry to be a thing. I just don't know if it is yet.

But if the true purpose of Hunter is to tank, and Techer to support, they really aren't showing it. Maybe Sakai should make pursuing his vision worthwhile if he wants players to follow in his design.

I guess I should be more specific with the "every statement" part next time.

But yes, you are right in a way - the certain potential of the class is not being highlighted.

The reason why, I believe everyone would think 'tanking' or 'tanking builds' on a hunter would be pointless is because; there isn't a solid 'strategy' or a plan to follow with these bosses - more over in not getting hit and just do the highest damage if you can.

But, given the mechanic and what everyone said about the ranged classes - this would be a benefit for a focus - I wouldn't worry about "Osh begosh, I cant see the mobs face" because one can easily adjust to the hunters side or politely request them to turn the beast. As a RA you wouldn't want to keep dodging a boss all day, it may take away from the damage potential you can do (though other RA players have shown otherwise) same with a force.

These, 'Mut' classes, techer and hunter - well I mainly say that for techer because one can choose to melee more than they can cast; even more so if they DO (edit) grab the gear. As far as its own build, it is fully capable of support - yet again, most players won't aim for this for everything is linear to having the highest damage potential possible. Its not a bad thing, its just something that tends to happen that would undermine what a class can do aside from what is common.

gigawuts
Apr 23, 2013, 12:08 PM
The flaw of HU and TE is twofold. This will be slightly off topic, but not really since war cry is a symptom of this problem.

First and foremost, they don't have the in-built range advantage of other classes. This means they take more hits, have to evade more, and spend less time actually hurting. While longer range classes are rewarded for coming closer, close range classes are ONLY effective at close range. Long range classes go from good from afar to great at close range, while short range classes go from shit from afar to okay/decent/good at close range. Long range classes have a better risk:reward interaction than close range classes.

The skill bonuses of close range classes, which cannot use an in-built range option, are directly comparable with the longer range classes. This means that long range classes have something, at the very beginning, that close range classes do not.

This is the major flaw of the system. While guns and techs hit well from far away right out of the box, swords and wands do not. In fact, wands require an SP investment to even become decently effective at close range unless they're subbing FO and...playing like a FO.

Secondly? HU and Te are both split design. While close/long range can just be balanced with base performance and gear tweaks (better units, etc.), split design is entirely a flaw of the skilltree. In trying to keep the number of skills equal, yet packing two roles into one class, and then keeping the bonuses roughly comparable so nothing seems OP, they've actually reduced the effectiveness of both roles that HU and TE are meant to fulfill.

These are flaws found in EVERY game. PSO2 is absolutely not special in any regard here. Split design always necessitates either more skills, more powerful skills, or cheaper skills. Close range always necessitates either far more damage, some kind of decent effectiveness at range with better rewards for being closer, higher speeds, or a far superior tanking ability.

So how does this relate to war cry? It's a victim of trying to make the skill trees seem even. It's an arbitrary third role packed onto HU. The tank tree seems more oriented towards solo play than anything else. I don't consider the tanking tree at all meant to be used in tandem with war cry. Same goes for the offense tree. It looks more like war cry is the beginning of a third tree, which has exactly one more skill beneath it that has absolutely minimal synergy with it: Iron Will.

Do note that only after giving HU insane bonuses stacking up to ~200% has it begun to approach situational "balance," and yet in making this accessible to another class it's the other class that has benefited the most.

Cypher_9
Apr 23, 2013, 12:46 PM
Well put... Mr. Wuts

Angelo
Apr 23, 2013, 09:09 PM
More utility by not benefiting your party at all? I don't really see the utility in taking maybe half the damage you would if you miss a guard, while losing 65-80% of your damage at all times. That's just me though.
.

This isn't WoW. Tanking isn't just raw damage in this game because the way bosses move is so dynamic.

I good example is Range. I can WarCry it and have it face me while I deal damage to it's face and the party is free to go crazy on it's legs without being bothered.

EDIT: Oh, you meant Guard Stance? People have this assumption of "lol, just block dummy", which is a good point, however if you purposely get yourself swamped with tons of enemies you're not going to block all of them. Also, Guard Stance has a really negligible damage penalty when 10SP and combined with Brave Stance (since I'm always facing the enemy head on).

NoiseHERO
Apr 23, 2013, 09:12 PM
Daaaaammmn son just letta dude distract the boss already!

~Aya~
Apr 23, 2013, 09:18 PM
there needs to be a skill called @$%!# please. like war cry - Except it causes monster to lose aggro

UnLucky
Apr 23, 2013, 09:41 PM
This isn't WoW. Tanking isn't just raw damage in this game because the way bosses move is so dynamic.

I good example is Range. I can WarCry it and have it face me while I deal damage to it's face and the party is free to go crazy on it's legs without being bothered.

EDIT: Oh, you meant Guard Stance? People have this assumption of "lol, just block dummy", which is a good point, however if you purposely get yourself swamped with tons of enemies you're not going to block all of them. Also, Guard Stance has a really negligible damage penalty when 10SP and combined with Brave Stance (since I'm always facing the enemy head on).

This isn't WoW where you can keep a boss on top of you for the duration of the fight, with a healer keeping you at full health any time you take damage.

While solo, as top DPS, or with War Cry, there's nothing you can do to keep the boss from moving around. At best, you can stay relatively still yourself, to keep the boss from chasing you, or spinning around in place.

Ragne roots himself any time he uses an attack, and routinely jumps around. For either of these situations, War Cry does not help. All it means is three people don't have to reposition themselves to hit the same part of the boss they were attacking between boss animations. With 4 DPS classes, you rush one of the legs, with the boss facing at least one of you, and break it. You now have enough time to rush another leg while it's down. And again. And again. Now the core. Really could have used War Cry for that!

As for "negligible" damage penalty? With Guard Stance, you have 95% damage. With Fury Stance, you get 165% damage, with enough left over for Just Counter and all weapon Gears. The most you can get with GS is 115% (and like 40-70 S-Atk). The most you can get with FS is 200%, or sacrificing Just Counter and all the Gears, 220%.

Alisha
Apr 23, 2013, 11:09 PM
for me to be a tank in this game there would need to be some tangible benefit to doing so. like say if it was possible to do a 7000 dmg just guard. or if getting hit while under the effect of warcry filled sword gear to max.

Angelo
Apr 23, 2013, 11:14 PM
This isn't WoW where you can keep a boss on top of you for the duration of the fight, with a healer keeping you at full health any time you take damage.

While solo, as top DPS, or with War Cry, there's nothing you can do to keep the boss from moving around. At best, you can stay relatively still yourself, to keep the boss from chasing you, or spinning around in place.

Ragne roots himself any time he uses an attack, and routinely jumps around. For either of these situations, War Cry does not help. All it means is three people don't have to reposition themselves to hit the same part of the boss they were attacking between boss animations. With 4 DPS classes, you rush one of the legs, with the boss facing at least one of you, and break it. You now have enough time to rush another leg while it's down. And again. And again. Now the core. Really could have used War Cry for that!

As for "negligible" damage penalty? With Guard Stance, you have 95% damage. With Fury Stance, you get 165% damage, with enough left over for Just Counter and all weapon Gears. The most you can get with GS is 115% (and like 40-70 S-Atk). The most you can get with FS is 200%, or sacrificing Just Counter and all the Gears, 220%.

Really? Because I've got Ragne to loop the 'pincer' attack and 'red disc' attack over and over again while I stand in front of it.

As for the damage penalty, I'm not terribly concerned about damage. In fact all of my mags boost X-DEF stats, I've taken every HP up skill I possibly can, and I chug the Guts drink before every mission. It's the way I like to play, I've always liked 'Paladin' characters ever since I played Final Fantasy IV. I'm having fun with it and I've had entire MPAs thank me for doing what I do, so there must be some utility there that people appreciate.

MetalDude
Apr 23, 2013, 11:14 PM
Ragne is retarded and does whatever the hell it wants. At most, you could get its melee attacks and movements to sort of follow you, but that jump is stupid. De Malmoth gives no fucks about aggro, but that's because Malmoths are the dumbest enemies in the game.

EDIT: The issue with the "negligible damage penalty" comment has more to do with how staggeringly large the gap is in damage.

Tanking is kind of nice in MPAs, but for anyone else not doing that it's unfortunately useless. I'm still chasing down enemies 90% of the time in AQs.

Kamekur
Apr 24, 2013, 08:16 AM
The problem with War Cry is not the skill itself, it's just that anything you could do with a build with War Cry,a dps build can do it, but better. With the new Fury Stance it is braindead easy to get aggro from bosses, or, if you didn't get the first hit, easily take aggro away by overriding the dps of your party mate.
Even before the Fury Stance buff, all you needed to do was landing the first hit and keep a constant dps, but now...

Moreover, getting War Cry puts your damage from 175% to 169% from Hunter alone, assuming you skip just counter and get all the gears.

Most bosses can be looped anyways, without even needing to "tank" hits. Just get in the right angle and dodge.
Examples I can think of right now...Would be Banther, staying in a 15º (away) degree from the front paw of the opposite side which he is walking to, at 3 meters in front of him. That forces him to try to stomp you and then scratch you.
Or Chrome, which all you need to do is stay between his feet to make him not move.

Edit: Changed percentages.

Zenobia
Apr 24, 2013, 09:50 AM
The problem with War Cry is not the skill itself, it's just that anything you could do with a build with War Cry,a dps build can do it, but better. With the new Fury Stance it is braindead easy to get aggro from bosses, or, if you didn't get the first hit, easily take aggro away by overriding the dps of your party mate.
Even before the Fury Stance buff, all you needed to do was landing the first hit and keep a constant dps, but now...

Moreover, getting War Cry puts your damage from 175% to 169% from Hunter alone, assuming you skip just counter and get all the gears.

Most bosses can be looped anyways, without even needing to "tank" hits. Just get in the right angle and dodge.
Examples I can think of right now...Would be Banther, staying in a 15º (away) degree from the front paw of the opposite side which he is walking to, at 3 meters in front of him. That forces him to try to stomp you and then scratch you.
Or Chrome, which all you need to do is stay between his feet to make him not move.

Edit: Changed percentages.

The way war cry works now and how they buffed it regardless who does the most damage as soon as you cast war cry on the boss it will come after you instantly and will continue to do so until said duration is over.

Kamekur
Apr 24, 2013, 10:22 AM
The way war cry works now and how they buffed it regardless who does the most damage as soon as you cast war cry on the boss it will come after you instantly and will continue to do so until said duration is over.

What I've just said is that a normal DPS melee can fulfill the same role, while doing more damage. Of course, if there were 2 melees in the same party, a war cry user, and a dps melee, the boss would go after the war cry user. However, they wouldn't be as fast as 2 dps melees, where the one who attacks first fulfills the aggro role.

Zenobia
Apr 24, 2013, 10:50 AM
What I've just said is that a normal DPS melee can fulfill the same role, while doing more damage. Of course, if there were 2 melees in the same party, a war cry user, and a dps melee, the boss would go after the war cry user. However, they wouldn't be as fast as 2 dps melees, where the one who attacks first fulfills the aggro role.

No no your missing my point let me slow this down.

The way war cry works now not way back then when war cry was useless.

Okay lets say that a force did the highest damage on said boss now we also know ofc that the FO will continue the onslaught correct? Yes ofc the FO will now here is what I was telling you and I dunno if your gonna get it this time sense you missed it before.

If a war cry user castes war cry and the FO had the aggro the war cry user will now have it for the rest of the 30 sec duration and untill it goes away it will go after said dpser ofc.

Now lets say the 30 sec duration did run out all the war cry user has to do is cast it again sense it has a 30 sec duration and cool down. Thus letting him keep the aggro going and he now has it again thus keeping the aggro.

Im not saying your wrong im correcting you on how War cry is now compared to how it was wayyyyy back then before they made war cry do exactly as it should. I know full well what you're talking about though.

Btw you don't need 2 melees to do this either.

UnLucky
Apr 24, 2013, 11:34 AM
No, you're missing the point.

You can get the aggro regardless of your damage output because the skill works. But War Cry is always a drop in damage for the user, since you take points away from JA or Fury Stance Up.

But if you could have taken aggro without War Cry because you spent more SP into your damage skills instead, then War Cry is not necessary.

If the entire party is all Hu/Fi, it doesn't matter if one or all of them have War Cry. One of them is going to have aggro. It would be better if none of them had War Cry, so all of them could have more damage to kill the boss faster.

Now if a total glass cannon melee isn't enough DPS to take aggro from a Ranger or Force, and the boss isn't just already dead from WB+CT, then War Cry can keep the boss from moving as much, if the ranged class is trying to keep their distance or circle around the boss.

In short, if the top DPS is in melee range of the boss and doesn't circle around it, having War Cry slows down your run. If the potential War Cry user can handle boss aggro better than whoever is currently "tanking", using it can help the party, but not necessarily enough to warrant taking War Cry over more damage skills.

gigawuts
Apr 24, 2013, 11:39 AM
No, you're missing the point.

You can get the aggro regardless of your damage output because the skill works. But War Cry is always a drop in damage for the user, since you take points away from JA or Fury Stance Up.

This is why I say class roles should be either exceptionally cheap or entirely free, as well as universally useful.

War Cry is only useful some of the time. The fury tree is useful all of the time. If War Cry had a built in HP steal or passive HP regen, flinch guard, added 25% to iron will to max it out at 100%, or any number of things, it might be worth going into. But it absolutely should not be at the expense of damage output. It should be at the expense of other utility options.

For War Cry to truly be worth it for your average, non-niche player, the fury tree needs to take up at most 40 SP, not the full 70 it takes now. With less SP pulled away from universally useful offense you've got more SP to invest elsewhere, and it then becomes a question of war cry vs. iron will, or war cry vs. guard stance, or war cry vs. automate halfline, or war cry vs. flash guard 1, etc.

UnLucky
Apr 24, 2013, 11:49 AM
War Cry should be 30s at lv1, seriously. It only becomes maybe useful some of the time only when maxed.

Kamekur
Apr 24, 2013, 12:02 PM
No no your missing my point let me slow this down.

The way war cry works now not way back then when war cry was useless.

Okay lets say that a force did the highest damage on said boss now we also know ofc that the FO will continue the onslaught correct? Yes ofc the FO will now here is what I was telling you and I dunno if your gonna get it this time sense you missed it before.

If a war cry user castes war cry and the FO had the aggro the war cry user will now have it for the rest of the 30 sec duration and untill it goes away it will go after said dpser ofc.

Now lets say the 30 sec duration did run out all the war cry user has to do is cast it again sense it has a 30 sec duration and cool down. Thus letting him keep the aggro going and he now has it again thus keeping the aggro.

Im not saying your wrong im correcting you on how War cry is now compared to how it was wayyyyy back then before they made war cry do exactly as it should. I know full well what you're talking about though.

Btw you don't need 2 melees to do this either.
If the Force is doing more damage than the melee, the melee is doing something wrong (or underleveled, or a lolhybrid which is not Ra/Hu)

If the melee doesn't rush to get aggro in the first place, they're doing something wrong.

I've never said War Cry is useless, nor compared with how it was back then. The skill does work, but it's just outbested. I've got 3 pure class characters (one of each type), and as melee, even if I get into area 3 late, I have no problems in snatcing away aggro from the Fo-Ra-Whatever. As UnLucky said, it's not that the skill doesn't work. It's just that pure dps does the same job, but without the damage loss. And a pure melee class will always take aggro, as long as a Ra/Hu doesn't destroy it in a blink of an eye.

Edit: Never posting from the phone again.

Feign
Apr 24, 2013, 03:06 PM
Can be.

Basically, they're complaining about having proper positioning.

I want all the aggros!
No FO, you ARE the aggros!
And then Force was Noir.

RedRaz0r
Apr 24, 2013, 03:48 PM
If the Force is doing more damage than the melee, the melee is doing something wrong (or underleveled, or a lolhybrid which is not Ra/Hu)

If the melee doesn't rush to get aggro in the first place, they're doing something wrong.

I've never said War Cry is useless, nor compared with how it was back then. The skill does its just outbested. I've got 3 pure class characters (one of each type), and as melee, even if I get into area 3 late, I have no problems in snatcing away aggro from the Fo-Ra-Whatever. As UnLucky said, it's not that the skill doesn't work. It's just that pure dps does the same job, but without the damage loss. And a pure melee class will always take aggro, as long as a Ra/Hu doesn't destroy it in a blink of an eye.

Basically this. I can't think of hardly any boss fights where a FO is going to beat a HU or a FI.