PDA

View Full Version : Obligatory Class Tier List Thread



Pages : [1] 2

UnLucky
Apr 29, 2013, 06:50 PM
I think it's about time to open this can of worms, along with "You know you're addicted to PSO2 when..."

But there's no PvP, so how can there be tiers?? Well, there's still a competitive aspect whether in co-op or head-to-head, and there's obviously a difference in effectiveness between the classes, even if it isn't significant or you just think it makes no difference.

The classes are not ranked within tiers, they're simply ordered by Striking->Ranged->Technique.

Standalone Classes:
[SPOILER-BOX]Top Tier
Ranger
Force

High Tier
Hunter

Mid Tier
Fighter

Low Tier
Gunner

Shit Tier
Techer[/SPOILER-BOX]
Main/Sub Combos:
[SPOILER-BOX]Top Tier
Ra/Hu
Fo/Fi
Fo/Te

High Tier
Hu/Fi
Fi/Hu
Ra/Fi
Gu/Ra
Te/Fo

Mid Tier
Fi/Fo
Ra/Te
Gu/Hu
Gu/Fi
Fo/Ra
Te/Fi
Te/Hu

Low Tier
Hu/Gu
Hu/Ra
Hu/Fo
Hu/Te
Fi/Gu
Fi/Ra
Fi/Te
Ra/Fo
Fo/Hu
Fo/Gu

Shit Tier
Gu/Fo
Gu/Te
Te/Ra
Te/Gu[/SPOILER-BOX]
Anyway this is how I see it, so tell me I'm wrong for 100 pages before this thing can become official.

Think Ra/Hu should be God tier? Gu/Ra and Te/Fo mid? Your favorite low tier combo is actually really good? Let's discuss.

MissMalice
Apr 29, 2013, 07:04 PM
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://unbornmind.com/myblog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/abandon-hope-all-ye-who-enter-here-e1285714292550.jpg

Because we all know how this is going to end.
[/SPOILER-BOX]

I'd personally swap Ranger and Hunter in the Standalone category~ I can't play Hunter even remotely well, but those that do utterly raep.

HIT0SHI
Apr 29, 2013, 07:07 PM
You forgot to add to the list "RA/GU".

As for tiers, i cant say. But i do aim to be a GU/RA once I get a Flame Visit (impliyng I'll get one).

~Aya~
Apr 29, 2013, 07:08 PM
Yes.. hunter needs to be in top.. i am not great at it but since practice.. im now able to kill most monsters before a ranger or fo can start attacking.. or they eill use pa or charge spell and I will watch it hit the enemy that is already dead.. AB11+ does this for me.

Z-0
Apr 29, 2013, 07:12 PM
Melee is far better than FO overall now.

Only bad melee players don't realise this.

Shirai
Apr 29, 2013, 07:15 PM
Stand-alone, I can't remember all that well, but Hunter is kinda...eh without the fighter sub to back it up. So this list is okay.

But Hu/fi vice versa, should be in top tier.

Well...in most cases melee should be better than FO.

FOs should usually have great AOE damage, imo. Although...overend kinda murders it.
Within the time of overend...a FO could kill a group of enemies if pro enough...

Ryock
Apr 29, 2013, 07:20 PM
Ohhhhhh God, I don't wanna start treating this like some fighting game. I'll just go do my own thing :D

~Aya~
Apr 29, 2013, 07:21 PM
Stand-alone, I can't remember all that well, but Hunter is kinda...eh without the fighter sub to back it up. So this list is okay.

But Hu/fi vice versa, should be in top tier.

Well...in most cases melee should be better than FO.

FOs should usually have great AOE damage, imo. Although...overend kinda murders it.
Within the time of overend...a FO could kill a group of enemies if pro enough...


I just wish OE wasn't so slow.... I dont even use it anymore ;o;.. kinda became meh after using spear/DS

Cyclon
Apr 29, 2013, 07:21 PM
Anyway this is how I see it, so tell me I'm wrong for 100 pages before this thing can become official.
Someone sure is displaying some confidence:)

Fighter isn't a whole tier under hunter imo. Actually, raise every class under hunter by a tier and I'm fine with this one.

Also tiers should be ordered. At least the top ones. Otherwise that list is relatively worthless.

Haven't be playing anything else than Hu/Fi-Fi/Hu for a while, so I can't really say anything else.

UnLucky
Apr 29, 2013, 07:22 PM
You forgot to add to the list "RA/GU".

As for tiers, i cant say. But i do aim to be a GU/RA once I get a Flame Visit (impliyng I'll get one).

Oh, I had it in there at one point, but I think I was moving it somewhere and lost it. Probably had it in mid tier.


Hunter as best class, though? I know their damage is amazing, but range and mobility are still a problem, despite using PAs and Step Attack to run slightly faster.

~Aya~
Apr 29, 2013, 07:28 PM
Oh, I had it in there at one point, but I think I was moving it somewhere and lost it. Probably had it in mid tier.


Hunter as best class, though? I know their damage is amazing, but range and mobility are still a problem, despite using PAs and Step Attack to run slightly faster.


Would be no point to being a melee if range were not up close.. though some PAs break that and allow you to get to monsters just as fast.

UnLucky
Apr 29, 2013, 07:28 PM
Fighter isn't a whole tier under hunter imo. Actually, raise every class under hunter by a tier and I'm fine with this one.

Also tiers should be ordered. At least the top ones. Otherwise that list is relatively worthless.
Yeah I'm not too confident ranking within tiers right now, especially if a lot of people want to move classes between them entirely.

Fighter is really close to Hunter, but still below. If tiers were ranked, that's how it'd work. Fighter can have about the same damage boosts or more than Hunter, but only with a SE and/or Wise stance, and can suffer the odd positional penalty, even when played perfectly (like attacks that spin the target). Knuckle vs Partisan mobility, and PA damage can be argued as well.


Would be no point to being a melee if range were not up close.. though some PAs break that and allow you to get to monsters just as fast.
I realize that. But is the damage now worth the travel time and PP cost? And enough to be better than less damage but from far away/to more targets?

~Aya~
Apr 29, 2013, 07:36 PM
Yeah I'm not too confident ranking within tiers right now, especially if a lot of people want to move classes between them entirely.

Fighter is really close to Hunter, but still below. If tiers were ranked, that's how it'd work. Fighter can have about the same damage boosts or more than Hunter, but only with a SE and/or Wise stance, and can suffer the odd positional penalty, even when played perfectly (like attacks that spin the target). Knuckle vs Partisan mobility, and PA damage can be argued as well.


I realize that. But is the damage now worth the travel time and PP cost? And enough to be better than less damage but from far away/to multiple targets?


To me.. yeah. Its fun and stylish. If you affix the right things and know how to play well, you can deal heavy dmg and refill PP easily. Hunters should always get to the target first as they have the means to stay ahead of everyone else.

Good example is TA in new dragon area(when you first start).. you can rush ahead as hunter and destroy everything before other classes get to try. Even if they catch up, you have the PAs and the stepping to close gaps quick.. monsters wont spawn miles away where the combat area is focused in your location.

Cyclon
Apr 29, 2013, 07:42 PM
Yeah I'm not too confident ranking within tiers right now, especially if a lot of people want to move classes between them entirely.

Fighter is really close to Hunter, but still below. If tiers were ranked, that's how it'd work. Fighter can have about the same damage boosts or more than Hunter, but only with a SE and/or Wise stance, and can suffer the odd positional penalty, even when played perfectly (like attacks that spin the target). Knuckle vs Partisan mobility, and PA damage can be argued as well.
If deadly archer didn't exist, I'd agree with a whole tier of difference. Also, even if I could argue that techter isn't actually the worst of the bunch(techs are techs), my main issue is that it's definitely not "shit tier", just like gunner still has insane survivability and chain trigger burst, so it's definitely not low tier in my mind.

Then again eh, it's your list:)

jiasu73
Apr 29, 2013, 07:43 PM
To me.. yeah. Its fun and stylish. If you affix the right things and know how to play well, you can deal heavy dmg and refill PP easily. Hunters should always get to the target first as they have the means to stay ahead of everyone else.

Good example is TA in new dragon area(when you first start).. you can rush ahead as hunter and destroy everything before other classes get to try. Even if they catch up, you have the PAs and the stepping to close gaps quick.. monsters wont spawn miles away where the combat area is focused in your location.

Yes especially for high level enemies (55+) where FO loses most of it's ohko capability (few moves still work although need to be close) in most cases, melee can take out mobs faster then FO can in serveral situations due to speed advantage and the ability ohko much more mobs than FO can. Amu 2 TA is a great example for this

Zenobia
Apr 29, 2013, 07:47 PM
Ppl must really don't play FI at all to be talking about the fist there are ways around that hit stop effect to make em hit home that's what the dash cancels are for as well as it's dodge.

Wan't a better argument? Here I posted this before the ways fist can be better outputted due to it's hit stop. I could go on,but mehh.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMazxcPcsyg

Sure I took 2 hits but that's all because I fawked up the timing on the dodge LOL.

~Aya~
Apr 29, 2013, 07:49 PM
Yes especially for high level enemies (55+) where FO loses its ohko capability in most cases, melee can take out mobs faster then FO can in serveral situations due to speed advantage and the ability ohko much more mobs than FO can. Amu 2 TA is a great example for this


I agree. Then FO start using zondeel to gather for Hu and Fi.. so awesome..

@Yuri

Stop flexing all thay muscle.. your making people jellly

gravityvx
Apr 29, 2013, 07:58 PM
List looked promising...till I saw FI & HU in an entire different tier from FO & RA.

UnLucky
Apr 29, 2013, 08:47 PM
If deadly archer didn't exist, I'd agree with a whole tier of difference. Also, even if I could argue that techter isn't actually the worst of the bunch(techs are techs), my main issue is that it's definitely not "shit tier", just like gunner still has insane survivability and chain trigger burst, so it's definitely not low tier in my mind.

Then again eh, it's your list:)

Deadly Archer vs sword/WL/partisan which each have one or two PAs worth using. DA is pretty spammable in all situations, but Hunter has some good stuff. Fighter was a whole tier ahead (imo) before the Fury Stance buff. They are really close now, but Fi/Hu is still better than Hu/Fi because of all class options (unless there's a recent good all-class DS?).

The reason I put Techer as the worst is because they don't have Charge PP Revival, which makes PP Restorate and PP Convert next to useless and all techs more costly. Wands are a bad tradeoff for overall damage, and Techer's other skills don't boost techs as much as Force, and hardly boosts melee at all. Techer also specializes in less useful elements, but even if it had equally damaging Fire/Bolt, they miss out on S Charge and PP Save.

Gunner has TMGs, Attack PP, and Chains. Which are all pretty good, but the rest is terrible, especially when CT is on cooldown. And no WB, so CT is basically a lesser version of that when solo.


Yes especially for high level enemies (55+) where FO loses its ohko capability in most cases, melee can take out mobs faster then FO can in serveral situations due to speed advantage and the ability ohko much more mobs than FO can. Amu 2 TA is a great example for this
In level appropriate areas, Force can still clear waves before melee can get to them. Rodeo Drive is the best mobility PA, Fighter subs can also knuckle dash, and anyone can double/triple dash off of a gunslash or all-class melee weapon. If bosses aren't moving around much, then they have the advantage over Force there, but not Rangers.

jiasu73
Apr 29, 2013, 09:20 PM
In level appropriate areas, Force can still clear waves before melee can get to them. Rodeo Drive is the best mobility PA, Fighter subs can also knuckle dash, and anyone can double/triple dash off of a gunslash or all-class melee weapon. If bosses aren't moving around much, then they have the advantage over Force there, but not Rangers.

Correct, when FO can OHKO in level appropriate areas they do hold an advantage as far as area coverage killing goes. Also with Rodeo if you mean in terms of speed( Might not just wish to point this out), assault buster step is the fastest way of travel as of current game. Quite PP heavy though so it is mainly viable in TA. Rodeo is very nice since you travel and do high damage at the same time.

Cyclon
Apr 29, 2013, 09:22 PM
The reason I put Techer as the worst is because they don't have Charge PP Revival, which makes PP Restorate and PP Convert next to useless and all techs more costly. Wands are a bad tradeoff for overall damage, and Techer's other skills don't boost techs as much as Force, and hardly boosts melee at all. Techer also specializes in less useful elements, but even if it had equally damaging Fire/Bolt, they miss out on S Charge and PP Save.
.
Techter's worst weakness is force really. If force was taken out of the picture, it probably wouldn't look THAT bad, being the only tech using class and all. Yes that isn't the case but that's how things should be looked at in a tier list I believe. Also, although it's clearly a mess of a class with no clear role and you can hardly change that, it doesn't have anything to do with efficiency. If wand gear, as pathetic a tool as it is, allows acceptable, self sustained dps, well that's a thing. Problem is I have little idea of the level of damage wand gear can yield at high levels, so I won't say any more about that.
Otherwise, well, I guess territory boost zondeel accounts for something.
Tl;dr:You shouldn't discriminate on Techter because Force does about everything better in the context of a tier list.

Then again maybe I should stop arguing about that, since the first list really isn't the most important one.

UnLucky
Apr 29, 2013, 09:28 PM
Correct, when FO can OHKO in level appropriate areas they do hold an advantage as far as area coverage killing goes. Also with Rodeo if you mean in terms of speed( Might not just wish to point this out), assault buster step is the fastest way of travel as of current game. Quite PP heavy though so it is mainly viable in TA. Rodeo is very nice since you travel and do high damage at the same time.

Oh yeah, I don't mean the other classes are faster overall. Just if they wanted more mobility, they're not very far behind melee classes. Just a double dash is a speed boost, and with range on top of that then they don't need to catch up to melee to dish out their best damage.

BlueCast Boy
Apr 29, 2013, 09:35 PM
Well I'm playing as Fi/Te and mostly subbing Force class does nothing to support the Hunter skill but Techer has always to support my main Hunter even its not that quite worth it thou but the PP restorate is worth and element weakness is quite well ok, but with techs i can easily pull off any mobs to me with zondeel but and my Double Saber with aoe pa's, I know that Fi/Te is low tier thats I'm finding any good source on it thou...

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 29, 2013, 09:36 PM
I'm seeing a lot of "but I like playing this so it's better"

UnLucky
Apr 29, 2013, 09:37 PM
If wand gear, as pathetic a tool as it is, allows acceptable, self sustained dps, well that's a thing. Problem is I have little idea of the level of damage wand gear can yield at high levels, so I won't say any more about that.
Otherwise, well, I guess territory boost zondeel accounts for something.
Tl;dr:You shouldn't discriminate on Techter because Force does about everything better in the context of a tier list.

Then again maybe I should stop arguing about that, since the first list really isn't the most important one.
Wand Gear is basically double melee damage, but wands are a weak melee weapon and there are no wand PAs.

Zondeel is effectively 15 PP more per cast than from a Force. And the extra range is on an active skill. You can time it for the start of spawns but there will be times when you don't have it up.

Both Gunner and Techer have *respectable* damage mods but they're lower than every other class. They both have very situational boosts. Gunner's Gear is good damage for the class's purpose, and has Chains. Techer's Gear works against itself, and has mediocre active skills not worth maxing out.

The first list is for no subs, barring all potential class options and just the single class on its own. Hard to imagine, I know, but try to think about when the newer classes first came out and before subclassing.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 29, 2013, 09:41 PM
It might be prudent to make a second tier list for bosses or something. Fo is clearly a broken class when it comes to clearing out trash mobs. even vs lvl 60s a lvl 50 Fo can two shot most everything before the melee classes even step attack.

Bosses on the other hand, melee classes will quickly outperform Fos, so unless people can agree that bosses carry little weight in the current meta, two lists may be less...provocative.

D-Inferno
Apr 29, 2013, 09:48 PM
Top:
HU/FI
FI/HU
RA/HU

High:
FO/FI
FO/TE

Upper:
RA/FI (might be higher, but it's basically outclassed)
GU/RA

Shit:
Everything else

I don't think this thread is necessary at all.

BlueCast Boy
Apr 29, 2013, 09:50 PM
but i don't get it why FO/TE is more stronger than TE/FO, I know its weapon wise since rod is more stronger than wand but the goodside on wand with wand gear you comfort wack your enemies with ease while getting PP out of it...but why is it that FO/TE is stronger?

EvilMag
Apr 29, 2013, 09:51 PM
God Tier:
RA/HU
FO/FI
FI/HU

Good Tier:
RA/FI
FO/TE
HU/FI
GU/RA
RA/GU

Shit Tier:
FO/RA

Superman 64 Tier:
Everything else.

BlueCast Boy
Apr 29, 2013, 09:52 PM
Top:
HU/FI
FI/HU
RA/HU

High:
FO/FI
FO/TE

Upper:
RA/FI (might be higher, but it's basically outclassed)
GU/RA

Shit:
Everything else

I don't think this thread is necessary at all.

you forgot FO/FI is more god tier than that lol

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 29, 2013, 09:54 PM
because the melee damage you get from wand is vastly outclaseed by the much higher damage you get from techs as a Fo. the downtime you have when recovering PP is a very small amount of your active time, so the melee damage you get while attacking with wand really doesn't amount to much. Not only do wands have less T atk, but they also have a longer recovery animation when casting meaning even if you had a wand with the same t atk as a rod, the rod would still be able to cast techs faster.

gravityvx
Apr 29, 2013, 09:56 PM
Top:
HU/FI
FI/HU
RA/HU

High:
FO/FI
FO/TE

Upper:
RA/FI (might be higher, but it's basically outclassed)
GU/RA

Shit:
Everything else

I don't think this thread is necessary at all.

Most legit looking list so far, though I dont think there can be a shit tier since everything in this game has very little difficulty excluding a few bosses if you're solo and not one class has trouble killing anything, each one is just a few seconds slower than the next in terms of trash clear on maps.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 29, 2013, 09:57 PM
in fact now, Fo/Te can equip king set which is better than snow set in almost every way. More HP, More DFP, more Atk bonus and a set bonus with King's bit to boot.

UnLucky
Apr 29, 2013, 10:00 PM
Bosses on the other hand, melee classes will quickly outperform Fos, so unless people can agree that bosses carry little weight in the current meta, two lists may be less...provocative.
But that's the thing, Ra/Hu is better against mobs AND bosses. Fi/Hu or Hu/Fi are the next best thing against both mobs and bosses if they can reach.

If a boss is not getting stunned or otherwise locked down, they're going to run all over. Ranger and Force lose some damage output, but still have good ranged damage. Melee just drops straight to zero.

If it's like Falz Arms where lots of stuns are flying everywhere, or Ragne's legs are broken in sequence, or the boss is using a lucky pattern, then yeah, melee is very powerful.

BlueCast Boy
Apr 29, 2013, 10:00 PM
Bolded.

Add on that FO also has more T.Def, so it can equip the Snow Set much earlier than TE/FO, which is very popular. It's one of the "standard" high end sets now, then you've got your Black Wing FO/FI and Elder Set FO/whatever.

Yeah but since Im a Cast I can equip Ragne sets...

UnLucky
Apr 29, 2013, 10:02 PM
Yeah but since Im a Cast I can equip Ragne sets...
That's not nearly as good as Schlacht.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 29, 2013, 10:03 PM
Even if ragne set were in every way as good schlacht set , which it isn't, it doesn't make up for every other shortcoming techer has, which I already explained to you.

gravityvx
Apr 29, 2013, 10:04 PM
But that's the thing, Ra/Hu is better against mobs AND bosses. Fi/Hu or Hu/Fi are the next best thing against both mobs and bosses if they can reach.

If a boss is not getting stunned or otherwise locked down, they're going to run all over. Ranger and Force lose some damage output, but still have good ranged damage. Melee just drops straight to zero.

If it's like Falz Arms where lots of stuns are flying everywhere, or Ragne's legs are broken in sequence, or the boss is using a lucky pattern, then yeah, melee is very powerful.

The only instance where a melee has even a slight chance of not being able to stick on a boss is banthers and wolga. If they have problems with any others that's on the players end, not the class.

UnLucky
Apr 29, 2013, 10:07 PM
The only instance where a melee has even a slight chance of not being able to stick on a boss is banthers and wolga. If they have problems with any others that's on the players end, not the class.

Quartz? Gwana? Spinning Zesh? I want to say Transmizer, but it's not that bad. Chrome likes to run around, too. And the slinkies, but they're kind of jokes.

Cyclon
Apr 29, 2013, 10:19 PM
Wand Gear is basically double melee damage, but wands are a weak melee weapon and there are no wand PAs.
Very basically, since that's not what it really is. But... I'm aware of that. I'm talking about what I know, and a wand gear's dps at level 60 with a 10* is not part of that. Otherwise yes, I know what wand gear is.


Zondeel is effectively 15 PP more per cast than from a Force. And the extra range is on an active skill. You can time it for the start of spawns but there will be times when you don't have it up.
Its cost as a (lightning built)force doesn't matter. What matters is if it's worth using as a techter. Also a solo built techter may want territorial boost at level 10, more than PP convert, and even at level 1 it can be active ~70% of the time.


Both Gunner and Techer have *respectable* damage mods but they're lower than every other class. They both have very situational boosts.Agreed, mostly.

Techer's Gear works against itself, and has mediocre active skills not worth maxing out. They are if you play techter as a force sub or as a force at all; Playing it efficiently alone is most likely another story. You can't sustain constant tech casting, so you may as well use wand gear. As a result, PP convert is mostly worthless, so you have points to put somewhere else. And you're not going to keep your points just because the skills suck. You have them, might as well use them.

The first list is for no subs, barring all potential class options and just the single class on its own. Hard to imagine, I know, but try to think about when the newer classes first came out and before subclassing.
Yeah, hm, yeah, I... also got that part. That's also what I've been doing... eh, so anyway, I mentioned it's less important because, well as we both said, the game's meta includes subclasses 99,9% of the time, so... the second one is the one people should be debating.

gravityvx
Apr 29, 2013, 10:19 PM
Quartz? Gwana? Spinning Zesh? I want to say Transmizer, but it's not that bad. Chrome likes to run around, too. And the slinkies, but they're kind of jokes.

None of those are really an issue, especially if you have knuckles. Gwana is predictable where it will surface, transmizer is slow as shit, quartz basically does nothing but rush back and forth at whoever has threat and is very easily targetable if it's not on you, and even when it is, you just just guard into attacks. Zesh is probably the biggest joke of the bunch, but you're right on it that when he spins after being tipped you lose on damage, even still thats an extremely small time frame. Chrome on the other hand, is sketchy with all the moving, flying, hoping, but is an issue for all classes from what I've seen unless there's a gunner just popping wb+chain and melting its face off.

Amaranthus
Apr 29, 2013, 10:26 PM
Is it okay to add something to it?

I would say TE/FI for sustained dps + support as Mid tier.

UnLucky
Apr 29, 2013, 10:32 PM
They are if you play techter as a force sub or as a force at all; Playing it efficiently alone is most likely another story. You can't sustain constant tech casting, so you may as well use wand gear. As a result, PP convert is mostly worthless, so you have points to put somewhere else. And you're not going to keep your points just because the skills suck. You have them, might as well use them.
Mostly just elaborating, not trying to "teach" you anything. Like adding values as a frame of reference.

Wand Gear works against Techer as a Techer. The gauge is filled by casting charged techs. The Gear boosts melee damage. If you prioritize the striking portion of your melee, your Gear explosions get weaker due to lower T-Atk. If you prioritize the tech damage portion, then you have less reason to use your melee because your techs gain a bigger boost from T-Atk than your Gear explosions.

Zorafim
Apr 29, 2013, 10:35 PM
Why do I keep hearing that RA is good? They have great damage mods, but rifle does horrible damage, and launcher leaves you too vulnerable unless nothing is attacking you. The only way to do competitive damage is if you're hitting a weak spot, which doesn't always happen. Of my classes, I always have the hardest time as ranger.

Shadowth117
Apr 29, 2013, 10:42 PM
Why do I keep hearing that RA is good? They have great damage mods, but rifle does horrible damage, and launcher leaves you too vulnerable unless nothing is attacking you. The only way to do competitive damage is if you're hitting a weak spot, which doesn't always happen. Of my classes, I always have the hardest time as ranger.

Launchers have many great PA's for AOE, gunslashes have aiming shot and add bullet which is amazing, and rifles have great power against single targets, especially with homing emission. But that's just what I'm seeing. Sub hu and you have something amazing.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 29, 2013, 10:44 PM
hitting weakpoints is actually really easy with practice. weakpoints get huge damage multipliers (typically x2 or x3) and the mods all stack up from there. On my current rifle with fury active, my bursts do 1k per hit without WB. On bosses, there are PAs that can easily do 200k+ damage each use which only takes about a second once you've grown accustomed to it.

Launchers are extremely powerful and at a distance do fantastic AoE. cluster bullet is very prone to getting headshots leading to very reliable OHKs even on lvl 60 mobs. Other PAs have their own uses in the right situations.

combine that with GS (mainly additional bullet which is also very prone to hitting weak points and aiming shot for strong single target damage) and you have a powerful weapon for clone range AoE or mid range single target.

Zorafim
Apr 29, 2013, 10:50 PM
I think my biggest problem is when mobs don't have weak points. Doing 1k per burst on a weak point is nice, but when there isn't one, that goes down to 300 a burst. I admit I don't use gunslashes often, but I really don't know anything about them. Maybe they can fill a hole which I'm missing.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 29, 2013, 10:51 PM
I think my biggest problem is when mobs don't have weak points. Doing 1k per burst on a weak point is nice, but when there isn't one, that goes down to 300 a burst. I admit I don't use gunslashes often, but I really don't know anything about them. Maybe they can fill a hole which I'm missing.

not per burst...per hit. a full string is 9k

there are very few enemies that dont have weak points..in fact can you name one for me?

Zorafim
Apr 29, 2013, 10:54 PM
The healing gilnas. If it does has one, I can't find it.

Now... how the hell are you doing 1k per hit? The most I can do is 300. Is that with +10 weapons and amazing affixes? If so, I think I found my problem.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 29, 2013, 11:00 PM
My rifle is a Signo Head Gun +10 43% Lightning with Fang Soul Shoot III and Stamina Boost. I'm also subbing Hu so I have Fury stance active for 2x damage on all my JAs

The gilnach may not have a weak spot, but it has absurdly low HP. 2 Additional Bullets is usually enough to put them down. if they're mixed in with other mobs, just use whatever AoE you like and it's a done deal. They don't last long enough to be a problem.

if it really were an issue you can always just use WB to get 3x damage and weak point damage mods to boot.

Cyclon
Apr 29, 2013, 11:30 PM
Mostly just elaborating, not trying to "teach" you anything. Like adding values as a frame of reference.

Wand Gear works against Techer as a Techer. The gauge is filled by casting charged techs. The Gear boosts melee damage. If you prioritize the striking portion of your melee, your Gear explosions get weaker due to lower T-Atk. If you prioritize the tech damage portion, then you have less reason to use your melee because your techs gain a bigger boost from T-Atk than your Gear explosions.
Actually, more s-atk also makes the explosion weaker but the actual attack stronger, so that's not really an issue in that regard, basically how much of a role techs play in your damage output is what's gonna help balance your stats.
Otherwise I agree that wand techter is pretty terrible on paper(the way techter needs both stats at very high levels when everyone else only needs one reminds me of archers from Disgaea 1. God did these suck.), but is it really worse than a non PP charge revival and lower damage output pre-subclass force(so what a techer techter is)? I'm unsure really.
Anyway, still think you're too harsh on solo techter, but that's okay. Sorry if I sounded like a jerk in my previous post.

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 29, 2013, 11:46 PM
Actually, more s-atk also makes the explosion weaker but the actual attack stronger, so that's not really an issue in that regard, basically how much of a role techs play in your damage output is what's gonna help balance your stats.
Otherwise I agree that wand techter is pretty terrible on paper(the way techter needs both stats at very high levels when everyone else only needs one reminds me of archers from Disgaea 1. God did these suck.), but is it really worse than a non PP charge revival and lower damage output pre-subclass force(so what a techer techter is)? I'm unsure really.
Anyway, still think you're too harsh on solo techter, but that's okay. Sorry if I sounded like a jerk in my previous post.


isn't that bad enough?

Cyclon
Apr 29, 2013, 11:55 PM
isn't that bad enough?
Yup, but I would argue that it isn't "shit". Actually I just did.

UnLucky
Apr 30, 2013, 01:24 AM
Actually, more s-atk also makes the explosion weaker but the actual attack stronger, so that's not really an issue in that regard, basically how much of a role techs play in your damage output is what's gonna help balance your stats.
Otherwise I agree that wand techter is pretty terrible on paper(the way techter needs both stats at very high levels when everyone else only needs one reminds me of archers from Disgaea 1. God did these suck.), but is it really worse than a non PP charge revival and lower damage output pre-subclass force(so what a techer techter is)? I'm unsure really.
Anyway, still think you're too harsh on solo techter, but that's okay. Sorry if I sounded like a jerk in my previous post.
Well yeah, it averages out for the melee with no extra multipliers either way. But focusing on S-Atk lowers your techs, and focusing T-Atk averages out your melee just the same but without further tech penalty.

Funny you mention the Archer, since I see a lot of players making the same mistakes here. Trying to split between Atk and Hit was always a bad idea because stat gain multipliers make a single stat higher than two combined. You would actually do more damage optimizing for only Atk or only Hit, just like for a sword or a gun, only its stats get cut in half. So the obvious choice was to go pure Hit because of the extra accuracy for the same damage as pure Atk, though bows will always be weaker than guns no matter what. I liked the bow skills, though, despite a lot of them being weak and/or situational.

For Techer, the optimal choice is to go pure Tech, because you do more damage overall. Are they weaker than Force? Clearly. Are they the worst solo class in the game? I think so. Gunner is pretty bad, though.

Dinosaur
Apr 30, 2013, 04:15 AM
Don't get why Te/Fo is far from Fo/Te.

Also Fi/Fo and Ra/Te being above Gu/Hu is pretty lol

Regardless, Unlucky threads are too stronk.

Kilich
Apr 30, 2013, 04:16 AM
Zonde/Foie tier
Fo/Te
Fo/Fi
Fo/Ra

Deadly Archer tier
Fi/Hu
Fi/Te
Fi/Gu

Additional Bullet tier
Ra/Hu
Ra/Fi
Ra/Gu
Gu/Ra
Hu/Ra

OverEnd tier
Hu/Fi
Hu/Te

What are you doing/I'm having fun tier
Others

UnLucky
Apr 30, 2013, 01:09 PM
Don't get why Te/Fo is far from Fo/Te.

Also Fi/Fo and Ra/Te being above Gu/Hu is pretty lol

Regardless, Unlucky threads are too stronk.
Not far away, just one tier. I've explained it before, but they take a large hit to T-Atk (wands) and T-Def (base) and cast slower (wands). It's pretty significant. If you have an Umblla Stick, then the gap closes, but it's still lower. A melee centric Techer makes up some of the damage compared to a melee centric Force, but close range techs would be much better with a rod.

And the tiers themselves are not ranked. Gu/Hu has better multipliers than Ra/Te, but WB is a better CT, and the passive PP regen helps for that as well. I have them on equal terms, but Gu/Hu does more damage, especially with a gunslash. If there's another Ranger in the party, then Gu/Hu can take advantage of that, but Ra/Te boosts the entire party's damage (or defense, with Deband Cut).

A Fi/Fo has good synergy, and with an Umblla Stick or Green Dual Gaze has nearly Te/Fo level techs (if not stronger), and better melee options and more HP (lower than pure melee, obviously). It's the best even split of melee and techs you can get, with Hu/Fo leaning more towards striking (plus you can make use of the Umbrella).

With more input and experience, we can settle on things like "upper high tier" and that kind of thing, but not quite yet.

supersonix9
Apr 30, 2013, 01:53 PM
Ranger/Hunter is by far the best class for taking out groups of normal mobs.

Dinosaur
Apr 30, 2013, 04:17 PM
Not far away, just one tier. I've explained it before, but they take a large hit to T-Atk (wands) and T-Def (base) and cast slower (wands). It's pretty significant. If you have an Umblla Stick, then the gap closes, but it's still lower. A melee centric Techer makes up some of the damage compared to a melee centric Force, but close range techs would be much better with a rod.

And the tiers themselves are not ranked. Gu/Hu has better multipliers than Ra/Te, but WB is a better CT, and the passive PP regen helps for that as well. I have them on equal terms, but Gu/Hu does more damage, especially with a gunslash. If there's another Ranger in the party, then Gu/Hu can take advantage of that, but Ra/Te boosts the entire party's damage (or defense, with Deband Cut).

A Fi/Fo has good synergy, and with an Umblla Stick or Green Dual Gaze has nearly Te/Fo level techs (if not stronger), and better melee options and more HP (lower than pure melee, obviously). It's the best even split of melee and techs you can get, with Hu/Fo leaning more towards striking (plus you can make use of the Umbrella).

With more input and experience, we can settle on things like "upper high tier" and that kind of thing, but not quite yet.

oh you're taking this seriously

lol

Zorafim
Apr 30, 2013, 04:26 PM
Ranger/Hunter is by far the best class for taking out groups of normal mobs.

I need to ask, since I'm still having trouble with my ranger. Is this after a certain level, or in general? Would you say a 1/1 RA/HU is still the best group clearer? Or 40/40 in vhard? Or is it just at 60/60 that this is true? I know at 45/45 this is not the case, unless I'm doing it wrong.

Sakarisei
Apr 30, 2013, 04:49 PM
Lol.. HU/TE low tier? Why?

I think you're evaluating only the DPS that can cause every class and class combo. However, efectiveness is not only just making huge damage in every party member.

Because Warcry and Guard Stance improvements, now they can do very easy the job of guys who makes much more damage, not only the GU/HU or TE/HU tanks. HU/TE or TE/HU is now one of the most resistance builds of the game and their high defense with a nice skill of provoking bosses should not be understimated.

Most people were agreed with me because my tank services.

Don't forget that hate is an important factor for co-op too...

Greetings.

UnLucky
Apr 30, 2013, 05:05 PM
oh you're taking this seriously

lol
as seriously as I take all of pso-w


I need to ask, since I'm still having trouble with my ranger. Is this after a certain level, or in general? Would you say a 1/1 RA/HU is still the best group clearer? Or 40/40 in vhard? Or is it just at 60/60 that this is true? I know at 45/45 this is not the case, unless I'm doing it wrong.
At lvl1, the best AoE would either be Fo/Te for slightly more base T-Atk and Flame techs since they don't rely on lv11+ power jumps, or a Ra/Fo (or Te) for Shifta'd launcher PAs, but you wouldn't have Additional Bullet.
Hunters wouldn't have Over End or Assault Buster.

I'd say once you get to 30/30 (and the +5 SP CO), with two WHAs maxed and WB at lv6 with maxed Fury Combo, Ra/Hu has nearly everything it needs. Anything after that is a smaller bonus or equipment upgrade.


Lol.. HU/TE low tier? Why?
Yes, but higher DPS generates Hate and kills enemies and bosses faster. Tank builds can attract the boss and attract the boss. You're overestimating the usefulness of taking less damage when not blocking or dodging.

Cyclon
Apr 30, 2013, 06:55 PM
Well yeah, it averages out for the melee with no extra multipliers either way. But focusing on S-Atk lowers your techs, and focusing T-Atk averages out your melee just the same but without further tech penalty.
It's not quite that simple though. Wand gear's extra damage doesn't scale with T-atk the same as the basic attack does with S-atk(just tested it, the latter's modifier is quite a bit higher, especially for the third hit of the combo), and receives no boost from just attacking. But whatever, this ain't the techter thread.


tanking
If this game's played properly, there is no need for tanking(read defense)whatsoever. As for keeping the aggro on a single person, well everyone can access warcry, not only tank builds. At the end of the line a large part of this game is about speed, and having a member of your party that deals very low damage is a problem in any group.

Zyrusticae
Apr 30, 2013, 07:30 PM
I lol'd at the "shit tier" class combos. Those are some serious crack builds and I wonder wtf you have to be smoking to even consider those, haha. It's pretty obvious when two classes have zero synergy with one another. TBH, I wish they'd kill that shit from the get-go and make sure every class has a reason to subclass with every other class. Not much fun in character building when you can tell at a glance which class goes well with which class (not even any particular game knowledge is needed, you just have to look at the skill descriptions and put two and two together).

Personally, I put Hu/Fi as "god tier" as they have the combination of being immensely more fun to play than most of the other class combinations in addition to just being incredibly strong and versatile (good against trash, good against bosses, higher traversal speed, no real weaknesses after the buff, plus dat HP count). Though I don't have an additional bullet spamming Ra/Hu nor a Fo/Fi for insane tech damage so I can't comment on those, but as far as class combinations I do have access to I don't consider any of my other characters in even the same league as my Hu/Fi. It's rather telling that those two aforementioned class combos both use a melee class for their sub.

UnLucky
Apr 30, 2013, 07:49 PM
It's not quite that simple though. Wand gear's extra damage doesn't scale with T-atk the same as the basic attack does with S-atk(just tested it, the latter's modifier is quite a bit higher, especially for the third hit of the combo), and receives no boost from just attacking. But whatever, this ain't the techter thread.
Yeah, they're not exactly equal, but they do scale very similarly off of your character's stats. Wand Gear is comparatively weaker though, since it doesn't get the normal damage bonuses. That would be different if it at least got EWH. The explosion also has a wider AoE than the swing itself, so there's that too.

But regardless, I don't feel it's worth dropping down to the second best techs in order to get up to the second worst normal attack, and further going down that route is disproportionate trade offs to the point where purely focusing on your melee is still worse than any other melee class with weak techs tacked on the side.

Maximizing Wand Gear is only a small increase on an already small value, but your techs drop a lot more than you've gained. Maximizing tech usage supports your biggest (read: only) damage bonuses, and your melee is inherently 2-3x stronger than Force already.

I lol'd at the "shit tier" class combos. Those are some serious crack builds and I wonder wtf you have to be smoking to even consider those, haha. It's pretty obvious when two classes have zero synergy with one another. TBH, I wish they'd kill that shit from the get-go and make sure every class has a reason to subclass with every other class. Not much fun in character building when you can tell at a glance which class goes well with which class (not even any particular game knowledge is needed, you just have to look at the skill descriptions and put two and two together).

Personally, I put Hu/Fi as "god tier" as they have the combination of being immensely more fun to play than most of the other class combinations in addition to just being incredibly strong and versatile (good against trash, good against bosses, higher traversal speed, no real weaknesses after the buff, plus dat HP count). Though I don't have an additional bullet spamming Ra/Hu nor a Fo/Fi for insane tech damage so I can't comment on those, but as far as class combinations I do have access to I don't consider any of my other characters in even the same league as my Hu/Fi. It's rather telling that those two aforementioned class combos both use a melee class for their sub.
Yeah, if WHA, SS, ZRA, and PK all boosted Striking and Tech damage as well, while JA = Tech JA and boosted all JA damage, and Tech Charge worked for all chargable attacks, then we'd see something other than simply same-type subs or Main/Melee. Everyone benefits, though Fo/Ra or Fo/Hu would probably see the most from that change, despite Hu/Gu becoming a real thing.

But more of this high opinion on the pure melee classes. While the recent Fury Stance change and Fury Combo are amazing, they're still a melee class. They do have stronger PAs than the other classes, but not nearly as much range. So they can use a single step-attacked PA to clear an entire wave. But a specced Force can clear more than just a tightly grouped wave with one or two techs which cost less PP at a greater range. Any two techs cost less than one Over End, by the way. And then a Fo/Fi can keep up with knuckle dash.

Ra/Hu gets even higher damage mods than Hu/Fi, and despite what anyone says about rifle PAs, it's enough to oneshot mobs just like a melee, and enough to pulverize bosses just like a melee, but they also get WB and the ranged advantage.

supersonix9
Apr 30, 2013, 07:51 PM
I need to ask, since I'm still having trouble with my ranger. Is this after a certain level, or in general? Would you say a 1/1 RA/HU is still the best group clearer? Or 40/40 in vhard? Or is it just at 60/60 that this is true? I know at 45/45 this is not the case, unless I'm doing it wrong.

It's really when you're high level, but I would definitely say it's so by 55/55. Cluster Bullet and Additional Bullet 11+ are your friend. Oh, and Homing Emission 11+ wrecks bosses with Weak Bullet.

Sakarisei
Apr 30, 2013, 07:59 PM
If this game's played properly, there is no need for tanking(read defense)whatsoever. As for keeping the aggro on a single person, well everyone can access warcry, not only tank builds.

Of course not, but not reccomended for guys who prefers being DPS, not defensive. There are different styles. Thats' it.


At the end of the line a large part of this game is about speed, and having a member of your party that deals very low damage is a problem in any group.

I disagree. But not about tanking, no.

A guy who deals very low damage is not the meaning of being 100% useless. I can be a RA/HU with very high DPS, but in a boss fight i'm shooting only Weak Bullet or Jellen Shot, mainly because i'm much more interested in supporting my partners than dealing DPS.

Yes, my DPS is 0 because i haven't done an attack to the boss(Or at least many attacks to the boss), and according your words, i'm a problem, but i'm helping my partners with skills which can help in their DPS and i'm not considerated a problem for me and my partners. That's the same of tanking, excepting that you give to your partners a better access to their weak points, that's it.

That depends of your strategy that you takes with your party and/or friends. And of course, because this game is pretty easy, tanks or support guys are not needed in this game. You can solo every quest or boss with a RA/HU and... no problems.

However, we're talking about being effective in cooperative, not being competitive in DPS and numbers with the others, although nowadays, in this game is only important being competitive with the others for being the best DPS. That's it.

Zorafim
Apr 30, 2013, 08:10 PM
Your situation is a bit different, though. Your damage is low, but you're contributing more damage than any other member because of your weak shot applications. By the same argument, of course, you could say that a tank build contributes more damage than a DpS build because the DpS in the group can whale on the boss without fear of being counter attacked. It would be on you to prove that this is true, however.

UnLucky
Apr 30, 2013, 08:56 PM
Yes, my DPS is 0 because i haven't done an attack to the boss(Or at least many attacks to the boss), and according your words, i'm a problem, but i'm helping my partners with skills which can help in their DPS and i'm not considerated a problem for me and my partners. That's the same of tanking, excepting that you give to your partners a better access to their weak points, that's it.

That depends of your strategy that you takes with your party and/or friends. And of course, because this game is pretty easy, tanks or support guys are not needed in this game. You can solo every quest or boss with a RA/HU and... no problems.
When your DPS is zero, each of your party members get triple damage. When WB runs out, you can go back to being 100% Ra/Hu pure DPS, like the other players as well. Ra/Hu is obviously better overall damage than a Ra/Te or a Ranger alone.

As a tank, how much extra damage does your party deal thanks to you? 10-20% because of easier access? Or whoever does the most damage attracts the boss and does exactly the same role as a pure tank, but with much better damage. A pure tank in that case, is 50% (taking no JA bonus or Fury Stance). The DPS tank is 100%. The other characters are 110-120% no matter who is tanking. So if we consider the combined bonus damage from others as if it came from the tank, the pure tank gets up to 110% effectiveness, whereas the DPS tank gets 160%.

Zyrusticae
Apr 30, 2013, 09:13 PM
Yeah, if WHA, SS, ZRA, and PK all boosted Striking and Tech damage as well, while JA = Tech JA and boosted all JA damage, and Tech Charge worked for all chargable attacks, then we'd see something other than simply same-type subs or Main/Melee. Everyone benefits, though Fo/Ra or Fo/Hu would probably see the most from that change, despite Hu/Gu becoming a real thing.

But more of this high opinion on the pure melee classes. While the recent Fury Stance change and Fury Combo are amazing, they're still a melee class. They do have stronger PAs than the other classes, but not nearly as much range. So they can use a single step-attacked PA to clear an entire wave. But a specced Force can clear more than just a tightly grouped wave with one or two techs which cost less PP at a greater range. Any two techs cost less than one Over End, by the way. And then a Fo/Fi can keep up with knuckle dash.

Ra/Hu gets even higher damage mods than Hu/Fi, and despite what anyone says about rifle PAs, it's enough to oneshot mobs just like a melee, and enough to pulverize bosses just like a melee, but they also get WB and the ranged advantage.
Eh. I'll have to take your word for it. I'm never going to make a Fo/Fi because of the tedium of leveling hunter and fighter when I already have a high-level Hu/Fi (they're separate characters, obviously someone who just played all classes on one character has a big advantage here).

The thing about the ranger, though, is that they actually don't have anything comparable in sheer AoE size to partisan gear'd Assault Buster or Slide End. They may get close in damage with sub Hunter but it doesn't matter if they have to attack more often because that many more enemies just weren't in range. And the launcher is slow as fuck, too. Frankly, ranger is my least favorite of all the classes, even below techer (because at least territory burst + zondeel is actually fun to abuse).

Though the way hunter synergizes with ranger (or even gunner, for that matter) is fucking stupid and drives me up the damn wall with rage. What the fuck is with the prime melee class being a better subclass than fucking gunner? What the fucking fuck is this shit? GRARRRGH

Episode 2, you are my only hope for the future of class balance. And yet even then, I'm not really getting my hopes up that much...

Narrillnezzurh
Apr 30, 2013, 10:07 PM
What the fuck is with the prime melee class being a better subclass than fucking gunner?

To be fair, gunner was designed as a melee class.

Zyrusticae
Apr 30, 2013, 10:50 PM
To be fair, gunner was designed as a melee class.
That just makes it worse. :(

Alisha
Apr 30, 2013, 11:09 PM
even shit tier classes can get the job done


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy9u6rNu7RI

SociableTyrannosaur
Apr 30, 2013, 11:20 PM
Many animals will chew their own limbs off to escape traps. Does the animal get away? sure. but if another animal could just open the trap and walk out, ignore the trap, know how not get caught in it to begin with or in the fantasy world - shift out of phase and slip through the trap, that animal that is now 3 legged is looking pretty dumb even if they got out of the trap too.

Not that this has anything to do with the discussion at all.

it totally does

UnLucky
Apr 30, 2013, 11:27 PM
even shit tier classes can get the job done
you have a sub, and I never said that particular class combo was shit tier

but even if all classes can get the job done, there will always be one that does the job better

Zyrusticae
May 1, 2013, 12:19 AM
Arrrgh, I can't stand it! I cannot stand it!

I've been trying, trying so hard, to play my ranger/gunner and get her in a good spot and I JUST CAN'T IT'S IMPOSSIBLE ARRRGH!!

Everything about ranger, from the horrible accuracy (especially on the move) to the projectile speed to the way so many PAs, especially launcher PAs, completely restrict your movement just completely kills my enjoyment of it, plus the damage is utter shit if you're not hitting weak points or standing still (lol Standing Snipe). Gunner is even worse with the way Zero Range Advance basically does nothing for you since all the melee TMG PAs are shit and even Elder Rebellion sucks ass at clearing trash next to anything in the Force or Hunter arsenal. It is killing me!

I can't make these classes work. It just isn't possible. The only time I ever have fun with them is killing bosses and even that can be an exercise in frustration when a boss just turns around and faces the opposite direction to prevent me from building a chain or capitalizing on a weak bullet (goddamn Falz Arms)!

I'm beginning to understand why, out of several dozen TA pugs, I've only seen rangers or gunners in the party like all of three times and every other time it's just full of forces, techers, hunters, or fighters. Why bother, when they're only good in 15% of situations (boss fights) and the other 85% of the time they're playing the third wheel?

The saddest part is that even Additional Bullet is more effective on a Hu/Fi than a Ra/Gu, I mean come on, that is just fucking ridiculous! I literally have no reason to log onto my gunner other than she just looks fucking awesome, and even then my hunter also looks fucking awesome and actually manages to kill shit!

I apologize to all the ranger/gunner fans out there, but I just had to get this shit off my chest. I really want to like these classes, but I can't. Not even with how incredibly OP they are in boss fights. It just isn't enough. Not even close to enough.

Aine
May 1, 2013, 01:16 AM
There is literally no reason to pick GuRa or RaGu over RaHu. That includes boss fights, when you consider a few things:

1. WB and chain disappear when bosses flinch, so RaHu is better at killing bosses with flinch loops (e.g. Quartz, Vol)

2. Most parties will break all boss parts, so RaHu deals more damage overall, and by the time all parts are broken the boss is near death (if not dead already), so chain is pointless

3. Even if you're ignoring breakable parts and going for the kill, for a lot of bosses the fastest way to kill them is to break a part (or parts) to stop their movement first (e.g. break Banther's leg, then attack the head)

HIT0SHI
May 1, 2013, 01:20 AM
Arrrgh, I can't stand it! I cannot stand it!

I've been trying, trying so hard, to play my ranger/gunner and get her in a good spot and I JUST CAN'T IT'S IMPOSSIBLE ARRRGH!!

Everything about ranger, from the horrible accuracy (especially on the move) to the projectile speed to the way so many PAs, especially launcher PAs, completely restrict your movement just completely kills my enjoyment of it, plus the damage is utter shit if you're not hitting weak points or standing still (lol Standing Snipe). Gunner is even worse with the way Zero Range Advance basically does nothing for you since all the melee TMG PAs are shit and even Elder Rebellion sucks ass at clearing trash next to anything in the Force or Hunter arsenal. It is killing me!

I can't make these classes work. It just isn't possible. The only time I ever have fun with them is killing bosses and even that can be an exercise in frustration when a boss just turns around and faces the opposite direction to prevent me from building a chain or capitalizing on a weak bullet (goddamn Falz Arms)!

I'm beginning to understand why, out of several dozen TA pugs, I've only seen rangers or gunners in the party like all of three times and every other time it's just full of forces, techers, hunters, or fighters. Why bother, when they're only good in 15% of situations (boss fights) and the other 85% of the time they're playing the third wheel?

The saddest part is that even Additional Bullet is more effective on a Hu/Fi than a Ra/Gu, I mean come on, that is just fucking ridiculous! I literally have no reason to log onto my gunner other than she just looks fucking awesome, and even then my hunter also looks fucking awesome and actually manages to kill shit!

I apologize to all the ranger/gunner fans out there, but I just had to get this shit off my chest. I really want to like these classes, but I can't. Not even with how incredibly OP they are in boss fights. It just isn't enough. Not even close to enough.

LOL wow.

Darki
May 1, 2013, 01:41 AM
The fact that this thread exists shows me how stupidly umbalanced the game can be. I understand that perfect balance is something impossible, but to be honest, I don't think that achieving a decent level of it is that hard that they wouldn't even aim for it.

I'm not sure what's the problem here. I have the impression that they try to keep some degree of "classic" RPG roles, such as full support and tank, but that clashes with the battle system that is so dynamic and action-based. It seems they're afraid to inmerse completely in one or anoter: either scrap the concepts that are not practical in the current system, or add elements to it so these concepts are still useful. To be honest, my greatest pet peeve in this sort of game is precisely what we're debating here. I understand that people play the "best" classes (is only natural), but I don't think there should be "best" classes whatsoever, or that each one had perfectly defined advantages over others that gave them a spot in the game mechanics.

Fortunately the game is easy enough, that with a "shit" tier character being a FO/HU (say whatever you want, but is the best concept of the game, like it or not <_< -read: PERSONAL OPINION-) things die fast and easily so we can enjoy them as well, unlike PSU where the differences were really abysmal. But it's sad because I see that they are afraid of taking the final step and innovating on the right path.

Take my own example. I love FO/HU because I like the "magic knight" concept from old Tales games (Zelos and Kratos, my all time favorites). In PSO2 they've made a step in the right direction: you can chain techs and melee (and shots of course) in a fluent combo. but there's no weapon that allows for a proper ussage of such concept, nor skills that enhance that type of gameplay. Not even many weapons that allow for a hybrid style combat (the ones that exist are extremely rare or niche).

tl;dr, not really trying to do a "X class doesn't suck because I like it", just noting my dissapointment that this game doesn't seem to aim to "fix" the fact that classes are so umbalanced.

SuperChoco
May 1, 2013, 02:10 AM
Although this game isn't balanced that well, it is still way better than PSU's and PSO's balancing.

UnLucky
May 1, 2013, 02:26 AM
Everything about ranger, from the horrible accuracy (especially on the move) to the projectile speed to the way so many PAs, especially launcher PAs, completely restrict your movement just completely kills my enjoyment of it, plus the damage is utter shit if you're not hitting weak points or standing still (lol Standing Snipe). Gunner is even worse with the way Zero Range Advance basically does nothing for you since all the melee TMG PAs are shit and even Elder Rebellion sucks ass at clearing trash next to anything in the Force or Hunter arsenal. It is killing me!
Just pause before attacking, then move again during/after the PA. You still get SS and the accuracy boost.

And I mean, a lot of melee PAs root you for the animation, too. Be thankful that you don't have to move in order to hit things. A lot of weak points can be locked onto, and if it's not their face, it's in yours.


There is literally no reason to pick GuRa or RaGu over RaHu. That includes boss fights, when you consider a few things:

1. WB and chain disappear when bosses flinch, so RaHu is better at killing bosses with flinch loops (e.g. Quartz, Vol)

2. Most parties will break all boss parts, so RaHu deals more damage overall, and by the time all parts are broken the boss is near death (if not dead already), so chain is pointless

3. Even if you're ignoring breakable parts and going for the kill, for a lot of bosses the fastest way to kill them is to break a part (or parts) to stop their movement first (e.g. break Banther's leg, then attack the head)
Twin Mechs. The dodge is easy mode, and they're pretty good damage on their own (with the Gear). But yeah, other than that, it's just CT, which can be used like a 5th WB shot.


To be honest, my greatest pet peeve in this sort of game is precisely what we're debating here. I understand that people play the "best" classes (is only natural), but I don't think there should be "best" classes whatsoever, or that each one had perfectly defined advantages over others that gave them a spot in the game mechanics.

tl;dr, not really trying to do a "X class doesn't suck because I like it", just noting my dissapointment that this game doesn't seem to aim to "fix" the fact that classes are so umbalanced.
Yeah, there's some pretty bad balance in this game, and even worse attempts to fix it. A lot of it is just fundamental issues with the way the game is set up, the rest is bad math and planning.

I would totally like to see a support role become worthwhile, and hybrid classes be at least close to nearly halfway decent. Fi/Fo is still far from a fair split focus. Class skills really need to be more compatible with other archetypes, and the skills themselves should not be worthless or completely overshadowed. Changes to Fury Stance and War Cry are a good start, but they were still handled really poorly.

MetalDude
May 1, 2013, 02:31 AM
I do kind of like PSO's balance approach through Class-Race specific weapons and items (like the fairly low requirement Vivienne in BB giving RAmarls and FOmarls a great melee option with TP restore special on it). If that game was further refined, I think PSO would have had an incredibly unique type of balance using weapons that accentuate each character's strengths. Of course as it was, HUcast and RAcast are far superior (with the exception of RAmar's absurd ATA lowering the need for high Hit % weapons) and fleshies getting techs just didn't compensate for casts' better stats and stupidly amazing traps.

Syklo
May 1, 2013, 02:40 AM
FI/TE < TE/FI?

what.

Lebensohl
May 1, 2013, 03:15 AM
I need to ask, since I'm still having trouble with my ranger. Is this after a certain level, or in general? Would you say a 1/1 RA/HU is still the best group clearer? Or 40/40 in vhard? Or is it just at 60/60 that this is true? I know at 45/45 this is not the case, unless I'm doing it wrong.
I'm close to your level and I do a really good amount of damage.

The thing is we don't have good all around weapons, everything has big holes.
Launcher does a lot of work. It has the strongest headshot damage at the cost of being a bit slow. Divine launcher should hit most weakpoints, and cluster bullet should hit all the others. For enemies without weakpoints, that's why you have Over End :D.

There are a few combos I like

Divine Launcher (it has a launch effect) -> Normal Attack -> Normal Attack -> Normal Attack. (For tougher enemies where you really don't want them in your face)
Normal Attack -> Ja Cluster Bullet. I'm rocking a Lambda Saint Kilda and I do 8k headshots to mobs. Usually wipes non-AQ mobs.

If you are facing much weaker mobs, Additional Bullet is great. And even weaker ones you have Sonic arrow too.


Arrrgh, I can't stand it! I cannot stand it!

I've been trying, trying so hard, to play my ranger/gunner and get her in a good spot and I JUST CAN'T IT'S IMPOSSIBLE ARRRGH!!

Everything about ranger, from the horrible accuracy (especially on the move) to the projectile speed to the way so many PAs, especially launcher PAs, completely restrict your movement just completely kills my enjoyment of it, plus the damage is utter shit if you're not hitting weak points or standing still (lol Standing Snipe). Gunner is even worse with the way Zero Range Advance basically does nothing for you since all the melee TMG PAs are shit and even Elder Rebellion sucks ass at clearing trash next to anything in the Force or Hunter arsenal. It is killing me!

What I can say is that you need to try a different approach with Ranger. Yes indeed everything you said is very true. Rangers do no damage on non-weak points, they have horrible accuracy (and penalty) if you are not standing still, and TMG suck at clearing trash.

Now in order to exploit a ranger you have to do damage to weak points with weak bullet up. You have two main boss killing PAs for rifle, sneak shooter which is your sniper shot, hard to aim, has a lag time, but very rewarding, and homing emission with is even harder to set up, harder to aim, riskier and even more rewarding.

It's all headshot (WB) - headshot (JA'd sneak shooter) - headshot (JA'd sneed shooter). Or a quick homing emission.

The key is a lot of waiting, you have to wait for a boss to finish an attack, or do an attack where you know you can survive just to get that damage in. When I pull out my sword, I view the fight like I'm in control, I break parts in order to shape the boss how I go. When I'm using my rifle I view a boss fight as me countering everything the boss does. I have plenty of time to wait. After all I can't auto attack to charge my PP.

I play ranger because I love this sniper mechanic, and I love how I am probably the fastest boss killer compared to similarly leveled and similarly geared players simply because I have very long sustained DPS.

Yes, I have no idea how chain trigger fits in this situation. And Yes, I have no idea why you think you'd be able to outdps yourself if WB isn't up. That's why I don't play gunner.


I can't make these classes work. It just isn't possible. The only time I ever have fun with them is killing bosses and even that can be an exercise in frustration when a boss just turns around and faces the opposite direction to prevent me from building a chain or capitalizing on a weak bullet (goddamn Falz Arms)!

I'm beginning to understand why, out of several dozen TA pugs, I've only seen rangers or gunners in the party like all of three times and every other time it's just full of forces, techers, hunters, or fighters. Why bother, when they're only good in 15% of situations (boss fights) and the other 85% of the time they're playing the third wheel?

The saddest part is that even Additional Bullet is more effective on a Hu/Fi than a Ra/Gu, I mean come on, that is just fucking ridiculous! I literally have no reason to log onto my gunner other than she just looks fucking awesome, and even then my hunter also looks fucking awesome and actually manages to kill shit!

I apologize to all the ranger/gunner fans out there, but I just had to get this shit off my chest. I really want to like these classes, but I can't. Not even with how incredibly OP they are in boss fights. It just isn't enough. Not even close to enough.
I agree with you on the fact that specializing in boss killing is pretty boring, however there are many options available.

Launcher is amazing for mob killing, cluster bullet, divine launcher, rodeo drive and even the auto attack can wipe out mobs well before any other party members can reach it. And if you sub Hunter you have access to Over End which fills in the roles that Launcher can't cover nicely (enemies with no weakpoints, large groups of enemies you really don't want in your face). I see myself as one of the strongest mobbing classes around my level.

Additional Bullet is more effective on Hu/Fi? Source please?

EDIT: Saw this post

I think my biggest problem is when mobs don't have weak points. Doing 1k per burst on a weak point is nice, but when there isn't one, that goes down to 300 a burst. I admit I don't use gunslashes often, but I really don't know anything about them. Maybe they can fill a hole which I'm missing.

The Hole you are missing is the Sword (Over End). Grab a Lambda Aristin and set your PAs SA->OE->SA(or OE). Swing -> OE takes care of the two parts you had trouble with, mobs that get in your face, and mobs without a weakpoint. OE end has two great flinches that can stop those bipedaled mobs that jump at you and deal lots of damage. In addition OE final swing does a ton of damage that makes up for the lack of a weakpoint.

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 03:43 AM
There is literally no reason to pick GuRa or RaGu over RaHu. That includes boss fights, when you consider a few things:

1. WB and chain disappear when bosses flinch, so RaHu is better at killing bosses with flinch loops (e.g. Quartz, Vol)

2. Most parties will break all boss parts, so RaHu deals more damage overall, and by the time all parts are broken the boss is near death (if not dead already), so chain is pointless

3. Even if you're ignoring breakable parts and going for the kill, for a lot of bosses the fastest way to kill them is to break a part (or parts) to stop their movement first (e.g. break Banther's leg, then attack the head)

I can't even figure out what kind of face to make at such a ridiculously silly opinion. You've thrown in so many "ifs" while ignoring the simple fact that a good gu/ra will outright kill a boss within a few seconds(alone even, if they get a nice chain on the wb) to a little over a min if they need to make the boss flinch first with first wb before adding chain. And party wise they still add more overall to the party with wb + chain on the boss...smh.

Lebensohl
May 1, 2013, 03:48 AM
I can't even figure out what kind of face to make at such a ridiculously silly opinion. You've thrown in so many "ifs" while ignoring the simple fact that a good gu/ra will outright kill a boss within a few seconds(alone even, if they get a nice chain on the wb) to a little over a min if they need to make the boss flinch first with first wb before adding chain. And party wise they still add more overall to the party with wb + chain on the boss...smh.

I wouldn't call that a silly opinion. What level are you and what difficulty are you facing the bosses in?

It's one thing to walk in as a lvl 60 into VH free explore and blow away a boss in 3 seconds. How about being an average geared lvl 45 in VH Free Explore/AQs?
Or even a lvl 41 in Nab II time attack? (VH)

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 04:03 AM
I wouldn't call that a silly opinion. What level are you and what difficulty are you facing the bosses in?

It's one thing to walk in as a lvl 60 into VH free explore and blow away a boss in 3 seconds. How about being an average geared lvl 45 in VH Free Explore/AQs?
Or even a lvl 41 in Nab II time attack? (VH)

More ifs? I'm talking about a gunners full burst potential overall on a boss for either just you or your entire party. You could add your scenario to any class to try and defend that kind of nonsense, and whats TA & AQ have to do with boss fights? AQ bosses aren't any harder than the others, the only difference would be that they move faster, they die just as fast unless we're talking vardha or level 3 boosted, complete part breaking on rares or counting the fodder farming during.

Lebensohl
May 1, 2013, 04:14 AM
More ifs? I'm talking about a gunners full burst potential overall on a boss for either just you or your entire party. You could add your scenario to any class to try and defend that kind of nonsense, and whats TA & AQ have to do with boss fights? AQ bosses aren't any harder than the others, the only difference would be that they move faster, they die just as fast unless we're talking vardha or level 3 boosted, complete part breaking on rares or counting the fodder farming during.

Thanks for dodging the question. This illustrates the point I'm trying to make. Gunners are screwed if the boss isn't dead by the end of chain finish and have to wait for cooldown before they can put any meaningful damage.

Okay I give you that you have the best burst damage of any class. No one is going to argue with you on that. However just because you have the best burst doesn't mean you can kill a boss the fastest.

Bellion
May 1, 2013, 07:05 AM
However just because you have the best burst doesn't mean you can kill a boss the fastest.


Exactly, I'm just going to post this here.
Ra/Hu>Gu/Ra in these boss situations: Vol, Quartz, EX, Chrome, Snow Pair, Fang Pair, and minibosses if there are more than one.

Gu/Ra>Ra/Hu in these boss situations: Minibosses alone, Big Vardha, Dark Ragne, Zeshreida, and DF Hunar.

Didn't include Elder Arms and Elder himself because it can go either way in ideal situations. All of the other bosses are simple enough to manipulate. Oh, and Big Vardha can be debatable, I guess.

Z-0
May 1, 2013, 08:21 AM
Definitely prefer Ra/Hu for Dark Ragne over Gu/Ra.

Use 2 bullets to break the leg, with Homing Emissions (stronger than Gu/Ra), then unload your magazine on the core, get some PP, then just walk in circles with Homing Emission and you'll kill Ragne before he has a chance to come up again.

Prefer Ra/Hu on Vardha too, does not take very many HEs to kill him. Main problem is hoping the missiles don't decide to be stupid, which Gu/Ra can avoid or use Hyper Armour to just go through them. I'm tempted to try target-switching HE on Zesh to see if I can kill him faster than Gu/Ra, but probably wouldn't happen.

Also there are lots of minibosses faster as Ra/Hu. For example, target switching HE on Gwanahda will kill it in a mere 2 or 3 HEs. Rockbear is dead in 3 2-shot HEs as well (at level 46; Nab 1).

Coatl
May 1, 2013, 09:12 AM
good gu/ra will outright kill a boss within a few seconds(alone even, if they get a nice chain on the wb) to a little over a min

Ok. That gunner probably made me lose like 50k just for not breaking parts. :/
When is killing a boss in 10 seconds really all that beneficial? I don't really care to get meseta rings all that much faster.

Bellion
May 1, 2013, 09:43 AM
Definitely prefer Ra/Hu for Dark Ragne over Gu/Ra.

Use 2 bullets to break the leg, with Homing Emissions (stronger than Gu/Ra), then unload your magazine on the core, get some PP, then just walk in circles with Homing Emission and you'll kill Ragne before he has a chance to come up again.

Prefer Ra/Hu on Vardha too, does not take very many HEs to kill him. Main problem is hoping the missiles don't decide to be stupid, which Gu/Ra can avoid or use Hyper Armour to just go through them. I'm tempted to try target-switching HE on Zesh to see if I can kill him faster than Gu/Ra, but probably wouldn't happen.

Also there are lots of minibosses faster as Ra/Hu. For example, target switching HE on Gwanahda will kill it in a mere 2 or 3 HEs. Rockbear is dead in 3 2-shot HEs as well (at level 46; Nab 1).

Are you killing Ragne with 3 HE when she gets knocked down? I should probably go try that when the EQ decides to show up.

I would think it takes up to 3-4 HEs to kill Vardha as a Ra/Hu, so I think it can beat Gu/Ra. (1 to destroy the cannon to expose the core and the 2-3 on the core.) With HE targetting 6 so quickly since it counts areas that actually can't be damaged but HE targettable.

As for Gwanada, are you getting 2 targets on it? If we're getting 18k+ damage per HE projectile, then 3 HE does sound about right. We're not talking about when the universal weakpoint is exposed, right?

As for Rockbear, Gu/Ra can do the same but just needs to apply Chain Trigger and Weakbullet at the same time. Of course, Ra/Hu will beat Gu/Ra in Nab 1 anyday.

Z-0
May 1, 2013, 09:48 AM
When is killing a boss in 10 seconds really all that beneficial? I don't really care to get meseta rings all that much faster.
Depends on boss, imo.

For example, I will always break the parts on Fang, Snow, Ragne and Vardha since they drop souls or 10* units (or other oddities). On something like Zeshrayda, though, I'll just go for a straight kill because its parts don't drop anything except MORE SHRAYDA SOULS \o/.

Dragon Ex is also kinda useless to break all its parts imo, I only bother doing it when solo'ing to stunlock him to death.

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 10:19 AM
Thanks for dodging the question. This illustrates the point I'm trying to make. Gunners are screwed if the boss isn't dead by the end of chain finish and have to wait for cooldown before they can put any meaningful damage.

Okay I give you that you have the best burst damage of any class. No one is going to argue with you on that. However just because you have the best burst doesn't mean you can kill a boss the fastest.

What question did I dodge? I gave you a complete answer.




Ok. That gunner probably made me lose like 50k just for not breaking parts. :/
When is killing a boss in 10 seconds really all that beneficial? I don't really care to get meseta rings all that much faster.

I'm confused here, where did I say the gunner doesn't break parts? I spefically said it would take a little longer to kill when killing bosses where the party wants parts broken, that said the parts are easily taken out as gunner if they have standing snipe & a good rifle. As for when is killing a boss fast beneficial, pretty much every boss that isn't rare, and Falz Arms. So for the most part, all of them, minus Hunar where you need to break the sword.

Maybe it's different from your experience but anyone I party with doesn't give a damn about parts unless it's a rare or a boss with non shitty drops even as normal in AQ. So I suppose it completely depends on you and or your party, which again in my case the majority is a straight fast kill unless rare, someone needs something like Banther units or Hunar, I suppose.

SociableTyrannosaur
May 1, 2013, 11:13 AM
You have to count the time bewteen the start of your chain and the burst. while a gunner is doing normal attacks to build a chain, Ra/Hu is unloading multiple PAs for 150-200k each. think about what goes into getting that burst damage and not just the final numbers.

Skyly HUmar
May 1, 2013, 11:27 AM
You have to count the time bewteen the start of your chain and the burst. while a gunner is doing normal attacks to build a chain, Ra/Hu is unloading multiple PAs for 150-200k each. think about what goes into getting that burst damage and not just the final numbers.

This is the case with GU/RA. Before the hu upgrade id do a shit ton of damage while the gu wasjust building a chain, and usually he would only be able to hit the boss like 2 times with ER before it went down. Now i just flat out kill anything with a wb before they even use a PA unless they break the chain at like 20.

Not a gu/ra ra/hu argument but you get the gist.

SociableTyrannosaur
May 1, 2013, 11:33 AM
I'm pretty sure you and I are saying the same thing, Hannibal lol

Skyly HUmar
May 1, 2013, 11:39 AM
I'm pretty sure you and I are saying the same thing, Hannibal lol

I know, i just gave an example from first hand experence.

Bellion
May 1, 2013, 11:45 AM
I usually break the chain at 1, 5, 9, or 18 and very rarely 20. 1 and 5 are more than enough to kill any mini-boss and you're still getting 200%+ damage.

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 11:53 AM
You have to count the time bewteen the start of your chain and the burst. while a gunner is doing normal attacks to build a chain, Ra/Hu is unloading multiple PAs for 150-200k each. think about what goes into getting that burst damage and not just the final numbers.

While this is true, from a party perspective it only takes a few seconds to get a proper chain number. Usually when a chain trigger is popped everyone but the FO builds it, I can't say from a ranger perspective since I very rarely have a ranger in my parties but after about 3-5 seconds the chain is usually in it's mid 20s-40s or higher depending on the party comp, which is when I use it most of the time. When it's a simple boss like Ragne or a mini boss, 1 leg to core for instance, the trigger would only be taken to 5-10 for an absolute kill. With that the entire party unloads and you have a dead boss, which I come back to again about the gunner overall damage/utility for the party having both weak bullet & chain trigger at their disposal.

SociableTyrannosaur
May 1, 2013, 11:58 AM
And that is why people are favoring Ra/Hu now. Having FS active is like always having a base CT finish on everything. Gu/Hu loses out on RA's damage bonuses which when using CT, you're going after a weakpoint anyway, so Hu isn't doing you any better than Ra would, plus WB would have given you another 300% damage mod. In the case of Ra/Hu you get all of Ra's damage mods (207%), plus the 200% from Hu PLUS the 300% from WB end result is a ~1200% damage mod with no build up.

I know you're agreeing, just bringing it full circle.


While this is true, from a party perspective it only takes a few seconds to get a proper chain number. Usually when a chain trigger is popped everyone but the FO builds it, I can't say from a ranger perspective since I very rarely have a ranger in my parties but after about 3-5 seconds the chain is usually in it's mid 20s-40s or higher depending on the party comp, which is when I use it most of the time. When it's a simple boss like Ragne or a mini boss, 1 leg to core for instance, the trigger would only be taken to 5-10 for an absolute kill. With that the entire party unloads and you have a dead boss, which I come back to again about the gunner overall damage/utility for the party having both weak bullet & chain trigger at their disposal.

This will largely depend on the boss. Many bosses are bounding around and forcing people to chase them around making the chain builder mostly on their own unless you have a force with you using grants. The list bellion gave you was for enemies that you don't have to chase and don't stagger from damage.

gigawuts
May 1, 2013, 12:09 PM
And that is why people are favoring Ra/Hu now. Having FS active is like always having a base CT finish on everything.

Yup. Either HU, RA, and FO are too good, or GU and TE aren't good enough (and, let's be honest: FI too, as its stances are no longer so exceptional and chase/slayer skills are situational).

The best possible RA/HU rebalancing would not involve a HU nerf, at all. It would involve making GU's multipliers less restrictive.

Until that comes to pass RA/HU will continue to be everything GU is, except without ER or IF, without CT's restrictiveness, and without CT's peak damage. I'll take 2x to everything all the time over 5x to one thing, sometimes.

UnLucky
May 1, 2013, 12:18 PM
I can't even figure out what kind of face to make at such a ridiculously silly opinion. You've thrown in so many "ifs" while ignoring the simple fact that a good gu/ra will outright kill a boss within a few seconds(alone even, if they get a nice chain on the wb) to a little over a min if they need to make the boss flinch first with first wb before adding chain. And party wise they still add more overall to the party with wb + chain on the boss...smh.

They add more to the party with WB+CT? Than a Ranger who also has WB, but likely isn't going to switch their weapon with spare bullets? And CT which only modifies the Gunner's damage, and not the party's? And requires a string of weak normal attacks to build?

Ra/Hu has amazing damage, and it's sustainable. Probably still more overall than a Gu/Ra in the ideal situation, accounting for the whole combo building. Ra/Hu can immediately throw out their best burst damage if WB is up. And CT's full 60s cd (or more) is way too harsh for only 2.7x damage if you activate it without any combo.

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 12:41 PM
They add more to the party with WB+CT? Than a Ranger who also has WB, but likely isn't going to switch their weapon with spare bullets? And CT which only modifies the Gunner's damage, and not the party's? And requires a string of weak normal attacks to build?

Ra/Hu has amazing damage, and it's sustainable. Probably still more overall than a Gu/Ra in the ideal situation, accounting for the whole combo building. Ra/Hu can immediately throw out their best burst damage if WB is up. And CT's full 60s cd (or more) is way too harsh for only 2.7x damage if you activate it without any combo.

Did I miss the memo where they had taken away party member benefits for chain finish? Many Over End records seem to speak differently.

Skyly HUmar
May 1, 2013, 12:45 PM
Did I miss the memo where they had taken away party member benefits for chain finish? Many Over End records seem to speak differently.

Thats only if the over end user is subbung gu. Your chain does not benefit the party member in that way.

Shadowth117
May 1, 2013, 12:57 PM
Thats only if the over end user is subbung gu. Your chain does not benefit the party member in that way.

This is correct actually ^

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 12:58 PM
Thats only if the over end user is subbung gu. Your chain does not benefit the party member in that way.

Well that's that then if that's the case, if a sub is needed to benefit from finish gunner has indeed lost it's place vs rangers subbing hu on bosses in a party environment. Very weird I never heard of this until now though.

Skyly HUmar
May 1, 2013, 01:34 PM
Well that's that then if that's the case, if a sub is needed to benefit from finish gunner has indeed lost it's place vs rangers subbing hu on bosses in a party environment. Very weird I never heard of this until now though.

But its pointless to sub gu as a hu other than going for max damage, because you will only use chain once, and over end is too slow to fully fit in a chain so i could even say subbing gu is pretty pointless.

UnLucky
May 1, 2013, 01:43 PM
Every party member can help build a Chain Trigger combo, but other parties in the same MPA cannot see nor help build the chain. Only the Gunner can activate/finish their own chain to get boosted damage.

It has always been like that.

Zorafim
May 1, 2013, 01:44 PM
The Hole you are missing is the Sword (Over End). Grab a Lambda Aristin and set your PAs SA->OE->SA(or OE). Swing -> OE takes care of the two parts you had trouble with, mobs that get in your face, and mobs without a weakpoint. OE end has two great flinches that can stop those bipedaled mobs that jump at you and deal lots of damage. In addition OE final swing does a ton of damage that makes up for the lack of a weakpoint.

...

...

...

Oh.

...

I forgot that existed.

...

Pardon me, I have some experimenting to do.

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 01:49 PM
But its pointless to sub gu as a hu other than going for max damage, because you will only use chain once, and over end is too slow to fully fit in a chain so i could even say subbing gu is pretty pointless.

Nah, that's not how it works. It's a cooperative effort whenever I've done if for a hunter, doing it solo is pointless. The chain gets built, they start over end and I cause the finish on the 3rd hardest hitting swing, making a ridiculous amount of damage to the boss if it survives long enough.

Zyrusticae
May 1, 2013, 01:54 PM
I'm still rather surprised that they aren't buffing the crap out of gunner. They're without question the single worst class in the entire game, both skill-wise and PA-wise, and yet there isn't a massive outcry for them to be buffed like there was for hunter?

They must be a really unpopular class or something, because this just makes no sense to me.

gigawuts
May 1, 2013, 01:57 PM
I'm still rather surprised that they aren't buffing the crap out of gunner. They're without question the single worst class in the entire game, both skill-wise and PA-wise, and yet there isn't a massive outcry for them to be buffed like there was for hunter?

They must be a really unpopular class or something, because this just makes no sense to me.

The problem is it's not a logical step up from ranger. Ranger players, by and large, are big numbers players. They're about efficiency and speed kills. Some are about support, too.

Gunner? No big numbers except the occasional CT. No range safety. No support at all.

It's a hunter subclass more than it is a ranger subclass.

IMO, FI/HU, FI/GU, HU/GU, RA/HU, and FI/RA (edit: also HU/RA, honestly any and all combination of melee/range and range/melee) are all equally good in principle, as in if their skills applied to all weapons, if only they'd finally come out with an actual variety of weapons, i.e. mechguns that depend on satk instead of ratk, that kind of thing.

Zorafim
May 1, 2013, 02:16 PM
I actually prefer gunner to ranger. If only because of elder rebellion and infinity fire. But I agree, the class itself just seems rushed. Like they needed a class, but couldn't figure out how to make one. Really, I just hope it gets absorbed into another class some day.

UnLucky
May 1, 2013, 02:19 PM
They did cry for a buff, then they got ER.

That was enough for a while since Ra/Fi wasn't far and away better in every way than Gu/Ra, and CT made up for the weaker mob clearing.

But now it's just... not. I still say Gunner is better than Techer as a main or solo class, but Gunner as a sub is largely worthless/redundant, possibly the worst one at least until a better Force sub gets released (Ranger skills work for tech damage??).

CT working with any weapon is like a half-assed attempt at proper hybridizing. It's like Sega prenerfed ZRA to not make it the defacto melee sub. And I still find it hilarious that Gunner weapons see the lowest gain from Attack PP Restorate (other than gunslash).

gigawuts
May 1, 2013, 02:22 PM
If ZRA worked at Killing Bonus ranges I have a feeling GU/RA and RA/GU would see a whole lot more use.

edit: And yeah, GU weapons gaining the least from APPR is exactly the same kind of pre-nerf balancing they applied to melee weapons, and is the entire reason only HU/FI and FI/HU are actually properly good at melee: Only Fighter's weapons are balanced around Fighter's stances being enabled, so the ONLY other class to amp up FI's weapons is...HU. Same for HU/FI, hunter's weapons are (were, since the fury stance changes) balanced around fury stance being enabled, so FI is the ONLY other class to amp up HU's weapons.

You give anything else those stances and they're through the roof levels of OP.

This pre-nerfing BS has got to fucking stop, it's clear they don't actually care about balance so I'm not sure why they insist on prenerfing the hell out of melee at every turn except the blatantly-but-not-really-because-the-other-stuff-is-overly-bad-this-isn't-overly-good OP stuff like a few 6* melee PA's.

Skyly HUmar
May 1, 2013, 02:54 PM
Nah, that's not how it works. It's a cooperative effort whenever I've done if for a hunter, doing it solo is pointless. The chain gets built, they start over end and I cause the finish on the 3rd hardest hitting swing, making a ridiculous amount of damage to the boss if it survives long enough.

but why do all that when you get more damage out of 2 normal over ends? im getting 300k+ per over end with just a wb now, and tbh to me that 3x > the hassle of chain.

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 03:15 PM
but why do all that when you get more damage out of 2 normal over ends? im getting 300k+ per over end with just a wb now, and tbh to me that 3x > the hassle of chain.

I think you're missing the part where there's a weak bullet already applied during the first two swings, and that example is strictly for hunters wanting a really hard hitting over end to boost their damage record. There is no serious work involved to pull it off, just a little communication. And with that, there really isnt a need for x3 over ends because the boss will more times than not, be dead with a chain finished over end + elder rebellion not including the rest of the party hitting the weak bullet.

Lostbob117
May 1, 2013, 03:41 PM
Well I think Fi/Hu and Hu/Fi should be in the highest tier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A7XD-97nd0

UnLucky
May 1, 2013, 04:14 PM
Well I think Fi/Hu and Hu/Fi should be in the highest tier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A7XD-97nd0

But Foie is more damage to more targets from a longer distance and for less PP (35 instead of 60)

And TAs are fixed spawns so you can preempt good positions

Zyrusticae
May 1, 2013, 04:24 PM
If ZRA worked at Killing Bonus ranges I have a feeling GU/RA and RA/GU would see a whole lot more use.

edit: And yeah, GU weapons gaining the least from APPR is exactly the same kind of pre-nerf balancing they applied to melee weapons, and is the entire reason only HU/FI and FI/HU are actually properly good at melee: Only Fighter's weapons are balanced around Fighter's stances being enabled, so the ONLY other class to amp up FI's weapons is...HU. Same for HU/FI, hunter's weapons are (were, since the fury stance changes) balanced around fury stance being enabled, so FI is the ONLY other class to amp up HU's weapons.

You give anything else those stances and they're through the roof levels of OP.

This pre-nerfing BS has got to fucking stop, it's clear they don't actually care about balance so I'm not sure why they insist on prenerfing the hell out of melee at every turn except the blatantly-but-not-really-because-the-other-stuff-is-overly-bad-this-isn't-overly-good OP stuff like a few 6* melee PA's.
I'm sorry, I still don't buy any of that "pre-nerfed" spew.

You take Force without any of their skills, their damage is shit and so is their PP management. You take ranger without any of their skills, they're completely fucking worthless and can't do a damn thing (and even WITH their skills they're still awful at clearing trash next to either of the other two classes).

What it really comes down to is that they rather suck at balancing PAs against one another, hence why we have this issue of everyone spamming the same particular PAs in every situation because nothing else can keep up. That has absolutely fuck-all to do with the skills whatsoever, there was no "pre-nerfing of melee" because of the existence of the stances, they were already the way they were regardless of the stances, the stances just help to make up for the fact that they suck at balancing in the first place.

Gunner sucks because their PAs AND their skills suck, and there's just not much getting around that fact.

Dinosaur
May 1, 2013, 04:30 PM
Gunner sucks because their PAs AND their skills suck, and there's just not much getting around that fact.

Yep. Better blame the class. It's never my own fault!

Z-0
May 1, 2013, 04:34 PM
But Foie is more damage to more targets from a longer distance and for less PP (35 instead of 60)

Foie is not more damage than the Hunter arsenal (specifically, Partisan). Even Sword with Sonic Arrow on Gear ZERO outdamages it easily.

Not even close. And range isn't a problem because Partisan Gear makes Assault Buster have fucking insane range. It one shots almost all trash enemies (heck, even all, and I'm using Lambda Patty Lumeria) on Advanced Quests, and you can switch to Wired Lance or Double Saber to kill the bigger targets, where FO would just be stood there... spamming Zonde about 4 or 5 times, while the melee has killed their second target already.

And when Bursts happen, you camp the exit or entrance, whip out a gunslash and just lol at all the enemies dying because 1: They're facing you so you're doing maximum damage and 2: Weakspots will be easily exposed. Only time this doesn't work is in Mines and Desert, where FO has the upper hand with a bolt tree.

FO doesn't one shot. Additional Bullet takes 2 PAs to kill pretty much all trash in AQs. What do you think is faster?

I wasn't joking when I posted on the first page of this thread. I have all the important classes at level 60, and I have everything kitted out to the max (50% gear and whatnot), and when I went to level FO after playing RaHu, FiHu and HuFi, I felt horribly weak and just wanted to stop playing. Right now, Force is just easier to play, it is not better than melee.

Lostbob117
May 1, 2013, 04:34 PM
But Foie is more damage to more targets from a longer distance and for less PP (35 instead of 60)

And TAs are fixed spawns so you can preempt good positions

Foie hits one target. Of course it should do more. However, Sonic Arrow can kill multiples at a time.
Also that video is before Fury was buffed.

Z-0
May 1, 2013, 04:36 PM
Also that video is before Fury was buffed.
Also the guy in that video is terrible and not a good indicator of melee at all, lol.

~Aya~
May 1, 2013, 04:37 PM
Wrong.


Kekeke... AB hits the target(s)..

Lostbob117
May 1, 2013, 04:45 PM
Wrong.

Did they change it? Unless it hits them when they are REALLY close together.

Bellion
May 1, 2013, 04:48 PM
You can graze enemies with the Foie and get maximum damage out of it.

Kierto
May 1, 2013, 04:56 PM
Slice CT cooldown in half (30s at level 10).
When Chain is broken it multiplies everyone in the party's (not MPA) damage - like PSP2. Chain can only be broken by the Gunner that used it and Chain Finish's extra mod still only applies to the GU that used it.

GU can be a support class?


.. lol. Reaching here. No idea how to fix this class.

Ezodagrom
May 1, 2013, 04:56 PM
Did they change it? Unless it hits them when they are REALLY close together.
Well aimed foies can hit multiple enemies, kinda like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5GHWV2CXXU#t=52s

Dinosaur
May 1, 2013, 04:59 PM
.. lol. Reaching here. No idea how to fix this class.

get better at the game

Lostbob117
May 1, 2013, 05:07 PM
Well aimed foies can hit multiple enemies, kinda like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5GHWV2CXXU#t=52s

Oh, I see.

Narrillnezzurh
May 1, 2013, 05:11 PM
get better at the game

Please, we'd love some evidence of Gu/Ra matching the other mainstream class combos on anything other than a boss fight.

gigawuts
May 1, 2013, 05:21 PM
get better at the game

GU is a shit class, based on its skill tree. This is just a fact. Any tangible damage GU does is entirely dependent on its subclass' bonuses.

This is the entire flaw people are talking about. You're forced to pick one subclass to compete as a GU. You could go with HU, but you get roughly comparable bonuses (easier to achieve, granted) but no weak bullet.

Mechguns are also a mish mash disaster, with decent melee PA's...on guns.

Can GU achieve things? Yes, so can someone going around barehanded. That doesn't mean other classes aren't better equipped for their roles with better skilltrees to buff up their intended abilities.

Dinosaur
May 1, 2013, 05:30 PM
Please, we'd love some evidence of Gu/Ra matching the other mainstream class combos on anything other than a boss fight.

Ok. Just watch me when I play.

Zyrusticae
May 1, 2013, 05:48 PM
Yep. Better blame the class. It's never my own fault!
Man, you are like a living caricature.

I've leveled every single class in the game to at least level 45 at this point. I daresay I have more than enough experience to make an informed judgment as to the strength and qualities of each individual class after so many dozens of hours of play for each one.

The simple fact is that I can clear entire maps on my hunter far faster than I can with any other class, while my gunner takes the longest by a decent margin, despite being geared to the fucking gills for her level range and having an optimized skill tree. There is simply no gunner PA that can stand up to the power and versatility of skills like Assault Buster. The skills themselves are heavily situational as well, while Fury Stance and Just Attack Bonus only require activation.

You can't seriously argue with me that gunner can stand up to any other class in the game in any way. The numbers simply do not work out in its favor. It has literally nothing going for it. Player skill doesn't change anything here. It will not magically allow gunner to clear entire screens full of enemies in the space of a single attack because the tools to do so simply do not exist. This is unmitigated fact. You cannot deny this any more than you can deny the sky is blue and the sun is hot.

Dinosaur
May 1, 2013, 05:55 PM
You can't seriously argue with me that gunner can stand up to any other class in the game in any way. The numbers simply do not work out in its favor. It has literally nothing going for it. Player skill doesn't change anything here. It will not magically allow gunner to clear entire screens full of enemies in the space of a single attack because the tools to do so simply do not exist. This is unmitigated fact. You cannot deny this any more than you can deny the sky is blue and the sun is hot.

Addditional Bullet

I win

plz get better at game

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 06:01 PM
So gunner is "shit" because it takes about 5 more seconds to clear wave of enemies as compared to hunter? lol mmmk. There is no shit class in a game with such a low difficulty, so other classes can clear faster than a gunner by a few seconds, yeah that is gamebreakingly bad. /sarcasm

It needs buffs just like hunter did, and even before the buffs hunter was not very weak. The same goes for gunner, it would only take simple tweaks to make them overboard like they did hunter, if they were extremely bad, it would have called for a complete rework and at this point in time they lack an easy mode aoe outside of additional bullet like the other classes and higher sustained on bosses, which isn't what they were made for, they are just a highly mobile all-in burst class currently.

UnLucky
May 1, 2013, 06:12 PM
Foie is not more damage than the Hunter arsenal (specifically, Partisan). Even Sword with Sonic Arrow on Gear ZERO outdamages it easily.Well, if SA now does twice as much as in that video, then you're right. And there are other PAs that should have been used instead. I was mostly commenting on the video.


Not even close. And range isn't a problem because Partisan Gear makes Assault Buster have fucking insane range. It one shots almost all trash enemies (heck, even all, and I'm using Lambda Patty Lumeria) on Advanced Quests, and you can switch to Wired Lance or Double Saber to kill the bigger targets, where FO would just be stood there... spamming Zonde about 4 or 5 times, while the melee has killed their second target already.Can AB hit anywhere on your minimap (zoomed in)? If not, it doesn't have insane range. And Zonde isn't an AoE tech... It would only be useful if mobs are well spread out, which would take 4 or 5 melee PAs as well, unless you corral the mobs first which takes time and would be easier/faster with Zondeel.


And when Bursts happen, you camp the exit or entrance, whip out a gunslash and just lol at all the enemies dying because 1: They're facing you so you're doing maximum damage and 2: Weakspots will be easily exposed. Only time this doesn't work is in Mines and Desert, where FO has the upper hand with a bolt tree.Or a flame tree anywhere else...? I don't see how large groups of enemies at range plays to Hu/Fi's strengths over Force or Ranger.


FO doesn't one shot. Additional Bullet takes 2 PAs to kill pretty much all trash in AQs. What do you think is faster?Again with the weaker Ra/Hu stuff. Techs hit more targets for almost half the PP cost. It makes twoshots less punishing, and oneshots super efficient. Also stragglers don't drain your PP as hard as entire groups.


I wasn't joking when I posted on the first page of this thread. I have all the important classes at level 60, and I have everything kitted out to the max (50% gear and whatnot), and when I went to level FO after playing RaHu, FiHu and HuFi, I felt horribly weak and just wanted to stop playing. Right now, Force is just easier to play, it is not better than melee.
idk, when I'm doing high risk AQs as Fo/Fi, I'm clearing out waves by the time the other three Fi/Hu or Hu/Fi oneshot their first mob. If I'm not being lazy, I'll knuckle dash along with them until I can make a shot (hint: it's earlier than the melee classes). If I am feeling lazy, I'll focus on the farther stuff, though I'll still graze the closer mobs as well.

It's like two Safoies or a Zondeel+Zonde if you're close, or 2-3 Foies to kill everything in sight.

gigawuts
May 1, 2013, 06:12 PM
So gunner is "shit" because it takes about 5 more seconds to clear wave of enemies as compared to hunter? lol mmmk. There is no shit class in a game with such a low difficulty, so other classes can clear faster than a gunner by a few seconds, yeah that is gamebreakingly bad. /sarcasm

It needs buffs just like hunter did, and even before the buffs hunter was not very weak. The same goes for gunner, it would only take simple tweaks to make them overboard like they did hunter, if they were extremely bad, it would have called for a complete rework and at this point in time they lack an easy mode aoe outside of additional bullet like the other classes and higher sustained on bosses, which isn't what they were made for, they are just a highly mobile all-in burst class currently.

"Shit" is relative.

You should know this.

Hunter was "shit" before its boost. Now it's "okay."

Here's how it goes:
OP-okay-shit

The same way poverty in the first world can be considered "shit" while it is most definitely better than living somewhere else (like the moon, living on the moon would suck ass)

UnLucky
May 1, 2013, 06:17 PM
Addditional Bullet

I win

plz get better at game

A Gu/Ra's AB is not as good as a Ra/Hu's or a Hu/Fi's

Gunner is shit

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 06:27 PM
I guess to go further with this, we'd need to define shit. If a shit class is one that can't get anything done, then evidently gunner is not a shit class. If a shit class is one which underperforms by a wide margin, then by what we've established, gunner is a shit class.
Of course, we could just use properly defined words to avoid this tangent of an argument in the first place.

A shit class per usual is a class that is just completely and utterly useless in every way possible and serves no purpose as a damage dealer, a healer, tank, etc. Just literally no potential to do anything to any degree.

A perfect example of a shit class would be Puppet Master from FFXI, if anyone has played the game years ago they know exactly what I'm talking about. And no class falls into this category, mainly because all enemies in this game are very easy to kill on any class in an effecient time span if you know what you're doing, and have the gear to do so.





"Shit" is relative.

You should know this.

Hunter was "shit" before its boost. Now it's "okay."

Here's how it goes:
OP-okay-shit

The same way poverty in the first world can be considered "shit" while it is most definitely better than living somewhere else (like the moon, living on the moon would suck ass)


In this game it's OP - Good - Decent

If the game had an ounce of difficulty in regards to clearing maps and killing bosses, then possibly there would be a "shit" tier but as it stands every class in the game can kill everything only slightly slower than the next. If there was some huge gap between kills of each class(with subs), that would have been a different story.

Kierto
May 1, 2013, 06:29 PM
This is just a semi-offtopic grumble but Skill Trees in general are just shitty lazy game design when all they add are boring lazy % passive bonuses (RIP Sega creativity), and the way things are right now Fury Stance and such are considered 'passive' because they are just that good and have negligible drawbacks and/or 0 downtime.

Things like Weak Bullet, Gears, PP Charge Revival, Chain, War Cry or even Traps actually add gameplay options to the player and should be encouraged over lazy stat-ups which are just fucking boring. Weapons themselves are just stat-ups in this game anyway.

But yeah too late in the game's life already to ever hope this shit is replaced so idk. Now everyone just hopes for passive % boosts each tree update. :barf:

gigawuts
May 1, 2013, 06:37 PM
This is just a semi-offtopic grumble but Skill Trees in general are just shitty lazy game design when all they add are boring lazy % passive bonuses (RIP Sega creativity), and the way things are right now Fury Stance and such are considered 'passive' because they are just that good and have negligible drawbacks and/or 0 downtime.

Things like Weak Bullet, Gears, PP Charge Revival, Chain, War Cry or even Traps actually add gameplay options to the player and should be encouraged over lazy stat-ups which are just fucking boring. Weapons themselves are just stat-ups in this game anyway.

But yeah too late in the game's life already to ever hope this shit is replaced so idk. Now everyone just hopes for passive % boosts each tree update. :barf:

Yup, because it's more likely than HU, RA, and FO's bigger bonuses being removed.

But hey.

And yes GU is shit next to other classes. Don't like it? That's too darn bad, I guess.

Zyrusticae
May 1, 2013, 06:46 PM
So gunner is "shit" because it takes about 5 more seconds to clear wave of enemies as compared to hunter? lol mmmk. There is no shit class in a game with such a low difficulty, so other classes can clear faster than a gunner by a few seconds, yeah that is gamebreakingly bad. /sarcasm

It needs buffs just like hunter did, and even before the buffs hunter was not very weak. The same goes for gunner, it would only take simple tweaks to make them overboard like they did hunter, if they were extremely bad, it would have called for a complete rework and at this point in time they lack an easy mode aoe outside of additional bullet like the other classes and higher sustained on bosses, which isn't what they were made for, they are just a highly mobile all-in burst class currently.
You might note that I never actually state that gunner is "shit", only that gunner is easily the worst class in the whole of the game as of right now (which it is). Whether or not a "shit tier" should exist isn't really what I am addressing. Right now, gunner occupies no useful niche of its own that no other class can do better, unlike techer which has the good fortune of at least being a strong support class thanks to things like Territory Burst and Extend Assist.

Rangers, especially Ra/Hus, are a FAR stronger anti-boss class than gunners, while also being straight-up better at killing trash thanks to the massive damage boost from Fury Stance. Gunners can use Fury Stance to up their damage as well but simply cannot match the utility of Weak Bullet nor the raw damage potential of WHA + SS, and have the added downside of many of their attacks being melee range.

Oh, and that "a few seconds" slower adds up to "several minutes slower" to potentially "several times slower" (yes, 'times' as in 'multiples') over the course of an entire run. This is not a negligible difference by any stretch of the imagination. My Force only needs to cast two or three times to clear an entire wave of enemies. My hunter only needs one swing of her partisan (yes, one). My gunner? My gunner has to continuously spam attacks one after another to clear a screen of enemies. She literally has no AoE whatsoever outside of Additional Bullet, and even that does shit damage without the damage bonuses from WHA (which is a ranger skill, obviously, and without that her damage is even shittier). No matter how I look at it, the contribution she gets from her gunner class is nowhere near that of her ranger class, and if she subbed hunter then you'd still see most of the damage coming from Fury Stance and not from gunner. It's a terrible situation to be in when you're completely dependent on your subclass to make you viable.

Now, whether or not that puts them in "shit tier" is entirely up to you. If it is as you say and the game only has a "decent" tier with a "good" tier and an "OP" tier above that, then I guess they're just "decent"... but "decent" implies "middle-of-the-road", and for me, they are definitely bottom-of-the-barrel, NOT middle-of-the-road.

gravityvx
May 1, 2013, 07:01 PM
When I'm unable to clear trash with 2 additional bullet shots minus the larger enemies, and melt bosses like butter maybe then, I'll believe they are "shit". As it stands they are decent at trash clear, above average at boss killing.

I will leave it at that since I just know this'll drag on more if I don't.

Zenobia
May 1, 2013, 07:06 PM
Well I think Fi/Hu and Hu/Fi should be in the highest tier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A7XD-97nd0

*AHEM*

That name is a lie not a JP player........

gigawuts
May 1, 2013, 07:13 PM
When I'm unable to clear trash with 2 additional bullet shots minus the larger enemies, and melt bosses like butter maybe then, I'll believe they are "shit". As it stands they are decent at trash clear, above average at boss killing.

I will leave it at that since I just know this'll drag on more if I don't.

You are mixing up GU/sub with just GU.

GU on its own has shit damage multipliers. It has shit variety. It has shit non-damage multiplier skills that are highly situational or only benefit two out of three of its own weapons less than anything else.

Just because GU/RA can be moderately competitive does not mean it's the GU part that's good.

Zenobia
May 1, 2013, 07:24 PM
I think it's the fact that sense WE play like THIS we expect every to see that said class should be played as such.

Also ppl must keep in mind not every has the same affixes as said person as well not every is a rich bitch like srsly not every has access to premium.

Dun give me that bullshit about TA's either you have your casual and you have your try hards not every is so fixated on gear funny but true. know some ppl who do TA's and buy a shit storm of costumes lol.

Gonna be honest here it's bad when the game has to to sub a certain class just to get a better tweak out of another to get better multipliers it's bad game design and fucks up balancing on a whole different scale.

For example RA/HU I believe has better damage outta RA/GU argue with me if you want but hey this is a agree to disagree moment now as im reading through this.

~Aya~
May 1, 2013, 07:31 PM
*AHEM*

That name is a lie not a JP player........


Nice! Still.. seems so slow compared to just OHKO everything in groups with AB.. if you get your angles right then you are g2g. So fast with that OP skill.

Zenobia
May 1, 2013, 07:38 PM
Nice! Still.. seems so slow compared to just OHKO everything in groups with AB.. if you get your angles right then you are g2g. So fast with that OP skill.

Thats the cool part it's a english player in the form of a JP player REPRESENTING<3

Kinda should have been moar descriptive in my comment huehuehue<3

UnLucky
May 1, 2013, 07:41 PM
You are mixing up GU/sub with just GU.

GU on its own has shit damage multipliers. It has shit variety. It has shit non-damage multiplier skills that are highly situational or only benefit two out of three of its own weapons less than anything else.

Just because GU/RA can be moderately competitive does not mean it's the GU part that's good.

I even said Gu/Ra was high tier... Though most other Gunner combinations are pretty low.

Not really sure where to put Ra/Gu still. Higher/lower than Gu/Ra? Ra/Fi?

I think it's the fact that sense WE play like THIS we expect every to see that said class should be played as such.

For example RA/HU I believe has better damage outta RA/GU argue with me if you want but hey this is a agree to disagree moment now as im reading through this.
Mostly considering "the best way to play the class" whether anyone actually does so or not. "Best" being a bit subjective, since there's different ways to apply damage, and survivability, but there's quite a heavy lean on pure DPS.

Jakosifer
May 1, 2013, 07:48 PM
Ra/Fi>>>Gu/Ra>>>Ra/Gu

Ra should never be subbing Gu if it can help it, and on the flipside, Gu should never sub anything but Ra. Funny how that works.

Though when I do kind of stop to look at it a bit more, the two lesser combinations of those three are in a way kind of hard to compare differences that actually matter. Does Ra/Gu having Launchers give it a CC edge? or does them both having access to a gimped AdB make that negligible? Both have WB and CT (lol), both have HE, but the other has weaker TMG's (does this matter when you've got a good Rifle?). Eh...

Zenobia
May 1, 2013, 08:36 PM
I even said Gu/Ra was high tier... Though most other Gunner combinations are pretty low.

Not really sure where to put Ra/Gu still. Higher/lower than Gu/Ra? Ra/Fi?

Mostly considering "the best way to play the class" whether anyone actually does so or not. "Best" being a bit subjective, since there's different ways to apply damage, and survivability, but there's quite a heavy lean on pure DPS.

Agreed putting into the fact not all play exactly how we envisioned or have the said affixes like said person it makes us think single minded and we are made to believe EVERYONE should have them.

I try to keep this in mind as not everyone is so bent on wasting meseta upon of meseta on affixes ppl want costumes so fuck it I just keep playing regardless of the fact.

BIG OLAF
May 1, 2013, 08:41 PM
If you think about it, spending, let's say, 3mil on grinding/affixing a weapon is a bigger waste than buying an outfit for the same amount, since the weapon is, most likely, going to be outclassed and become obsolete within the next month or so, whereas an outfit can't be...

...unless they come out with like a 'dental floss' swimsuit

Alisha
May 2, 2013, 03:01 AM
tier list usually revolve around speed and/or no upgrade runs.

TaigaUC
May 2, 2013, 04:36 AM
Haha. "Shit Tier".

Not taking it overly seriously or anything, but list looks roughly accurate. I think Hunter is a lot better since the buff, though. Getting a lot more out of melee than I used to.

Skyly HUmar
May 2, 2013, 11:39 AM
The main problem with hunter wasnt resolved though, we still need to get to the targets faster without doing shit thats bound to wear down the hardware.

jooozek
May 2, 2013, 12:25 PM
And when Bursts happen, you camp the exit or entrance, whip out a gunslash and just lol at all the enemies dying because 1: They're facing you so you're doing maximum damage and 2: Weakspots will be easily exposed. Only time this doesn't work is in Mines and Desert, where FO has the upper hand with a bolt tree.

i understand you never had a talis in your hand with a techer sub with territory burst? lightning tree territory bursted zondeel gets shit done everywhere and especially in cases like in AQ when people camp the exits

UnLucky
May 2, 2013, 02:01 PM
Agreed. Some games don't need tier lists.

This is one of them in my opinion.
If you mean "even low tier classes can do just fine" then yes, that's true.

If you mean "every class is balanced, there are no tiers" then no, you're wrong.

Can you do all the content with a 1* weapon, no units, no skill tree, no subclass? Sure.

Is any decently geared/specced class as bad as that? No.

Does that mean your runs will be as fast no matter what your party composition is? No.

If everyone in your party is impeccably skilled and geared, is there still room for improvement? Of course.

So in my opinion, this game does need a tier list. Or rather, there is one, whether someone types it out or not.

Zipzo
May 2, 2013, 03:01 PM
If you mean "even low tier classes can do just fine" then yes, that's true.

If you mean "every class is balanced, there are no tiers" then no, you're wrong.

Can you do all the content with a 1* weapon, no units, no skill tree, no subclass? Sure.

Is any decently geared/specced class as bad as that? No.

Does that mean your runs will be as fast no matter what your party composition is? No.

If everyone in your party is impeccably skilled and geared, is there still room for improvement? Of course.

So in my opinion, this game does need a tier list. Or rather, there is one, whether someone types it out or not.

I think what he means is actually "It doesn't matter in any way shape or form", because it doesn't.

You could argue faster runs increase your chances of rares or whatever, but in the end you still might never see one based on the drop chances and based on how chance works. Some choose not to bother themselves with that extra layer of effort (to play a style or in a way that isn't their favorite or the most fun for them in order to be "top tier") when it may not even have a positive outcome aside from wasting their time.

There are many other games where this line of thinking is actually exceptionally valid because it can actually hinder your actual success rate to not mind the tier list, where your desired outcome could possibly never come to pass if you are unable to perform at the level that only a certain tier and up can complete and unfortunately PSO2 is not like that. "Success" in PSO2 is either based completely on the users objective, or superficially on what rares you have. That's what he means. This doesn't mean that I'm against people having fun out of pushing their characters to their limits but it means I sort of question why that effort isn't going to something that's more rewarding than PSO2's effort payout. A different game, perhaps. Something in real life even. You're just torturing yourself. It's attitudes similar to this that lead people to become so frustrated over grinding, or never finding the rare they want.

If you just play the game how you like, a lot of it becomes a lot less annoying. The game just becomes what it is, something that's there that you play. Not something you're constantly wrestling with over mechanics, design and development decisions, skill trees, grinding fails, etc.

Tier lists based on speed/efficiency I suppose make sense, but still are pretty useless because it doesn't change what you like. So why discuss what's the best? Do you wish more people to pick the best to your benefit so that the chances of you playing with a "top tier" combo are higher? If not...what then is the purpose of the tier list? Just to say that you successfully managed to logically order all the combos (if that's it, then why do you need us) by means of how efficient/speedy they are at making a group clear things faster?

This is what I think he means by it not mattering.

gigawuts
May 2, 2013, 03:06 PM
/people discuss the metagame because that's what they find fun

/someone invariably shows up and says "it doesn't matter just do what you find fun"

Shadowth117
May 2, 2013, 03:11 PM
I think what he means is actually "It doesn't matter in any way shape or form", because it doesn't.

You could argue faster runs increase your chances of rares or whatever, but in the end you still might never see one based on the drop chances and based on how chance works. Some choose not to bother themselves with that extra layer of effort (to play a style or in a way that isn't their favorite or the most fun for them in order to be "top tier") when it may not even have a positive outcome aside from wasting their time.

There are many other games where this line of thinking is actually exceptionally valid, and unfortunately PSO2 is not one of them. That's what he means. This doesn't mean that I'm against people having fun out of pushing their characters to their limits but it means I sort of question why that effort isn't going to something that's more rewarding than PSO2's effort payout. A different game, perhaps. Something in real life even. You're just torturing yourself. It's attitudes similar to this that lead people to become so frustrated over grinding, or never finding the rare they want.

If you just play the game how you like, a lot of it becomes a lot less annoying. The game just becomes what it is, something that's there that you play. Not something you're constantly wrestling with over mechanics, design and development decisions, skill trees, grinding fails, etc.

Faster runs actually would denote better chances simply because
more chances == better chances

Not much else to that. Sure, it may be two chances may only be two chances of 0.01 at a drop, but that's still two chances at that drop rather than one which certainly sounds worth it to me.

But PSE Burs-
Are also affected by this, I know. Because if everyone is one hitting enemies instead of them being two hit, you're getting more of them. And if you're getting more of them, allegedly that can even give you more time in the burst itself.

But eh, surely you're right. Why would things like this have anything to do with this game?

Z-0
May 2, 2013, 03:13 PM
but...

i like pushing my character to its limit and killing stuff as fast as possible. i think the game is boring otherwise.

;-; but zipzo is right

UnLucky
May 2, 2013, 03:14 PM
I think what he means is actually "It doesn't matter in any way shape or form", because it doesn't.

You could argue faster runs increase your chances of rares or whatever, but in the end you still might never see one based on the drop chances and based on how chance works. Some choose not to bother themselves with that extra layer of effort (to play a style or in a way that isn't their favorite or the most fun for them in order to be "top tier") when it may not even have a positive outcome aside from wasting their time.

There are many other games where this line of thinking is actually exceptionally valid because it can actually hinder your actual success rate to not mind the tier list, where your desired outcome could possibly never come to pass if you are unable to perform at the level that only a certain tier and up can complete and unfortunately PSO2 is not like that. "Success" in PSO2 is either based completely on the users objective, or superficially on what rares you have. That's what he means. This doesn't mean that I'm against people having fun out of pushing their characters to their limits but it means I sort of question why that effort isn't going to something that's more rewarding than PSO2's effort payout. A different game, perhaps. Something in real life even. You're just torturing yourself. It's attitudes similar to this that lead people to become so frustrated over grinding, or never finding the rare they want.

If you just play the game how you like, a lot of it becomes a lot less annoying. The game just becomes what it is, something that's there that you play. Not something you're constantly wrestling with over mechanics, design and development decisions, skill trees, grinding fails, etc.

Tier lists based on speed/efficiency I suppose make sense, but still are pretty useless because it doesn't change what you like. So why discuss what's the best? Do you wish more people to pick the best to your benefit so that the chances of you playing with a "top tier" combo are higher? If not...what then is the purpose of the tier list? Just to say that you successfully managed to logically order all the combos (if that's it, then why do you need us) by means of how efficient/speedy they are at making a group clear things faster?

This is what I think he means by it not mattering.

So one chance at 0.01% is the same as five?

Throwing 3mil at Dudu is the same as 100k?

Using a +5% affix rate booster doesn't matter because it's still up to the RNG anyway?

Sure, you have to get lucky. But that doesn't mean there's no point in improving your chances in any way shape or form.

A stronger character means faster EXP, more overall drops, and easier quest completion. If a player is going in blind, chooses a bad class combination, but gets frustrated at their slow progression, are they enjoying their own style of play? If someone else only cares about being the strongest, and people tell them "everything is OP" or "anything is fine" is that helping?

Zipzo
May 2, 2013, 03:27 PM
So one chance at 0.01% is the same as five?

Throwing 3mil at Dudu is the same as 100k?

Using a +5% affix rate booster doesn't matter because it's still up to the RNG anyway?

Sure, you have to get lucky. But that doesn't mean there's no point in improving your chances in any way shape or form.

A stronger character means faster EXP, more overall drops, and easier quest completion. If a player is going in blind, chooses a bad class combination, but gets frustrated at their slow progression, are they enjoying their own style of play? If someone else only cares about being the strongest, and people tell them "everything is OP" or "anything is fine" is that helping?

But the increments of improvement that we're discussing...are they worth the potential time alotted to obtain these increases? They are so small. I'm not arguing against better gear = dead-er monster. I'm arguing that the value of that reward is so insignificant based on effort needed to be put forth that...you could deem it pointless in a way.

Again...not pointless in that it does nothing. Pointless in that...efficiency is debatable in the context of having other games in existence, or other things to do with a much higher value of reward for the time necessary. In the case of a player that does not play a "top" class combo, usually those other things win against PSO2. I'm just explaining the possible logic behind the "it doesn't matter" point of view.

It's perfectly valid to enjoy something that "doesn't matter" in the long run. I never said that was like, against the law or something. I enjoy singing but I don't have a career in it, so it doesn't really matter how, where, and when I do it, doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. I don't know why some of you are equating not mattering to "you shouldn't do it".

IE, go ahead and make a tier list (or perfect it), but...that doesn't mean it matters. Nor does it have to for you to need or want to do it.

gigawuts
May 2, 2013, 03:31 PM
Because that is the typical connotation applied when someone barges into a thread with an ongoing discussion and blurts out "BRO NONE OF THIS MATTERS JUST HAVE FUN INSTEAD."

I'm not sure what your fascination with the concept of things not mattering, being optional, not having to do things, etc. is, but it's rarely, if ever at all, conducive to the discussion at hand.

Zipzo
May 2, 2013, 03:40 PM
Because that is the typical connotation applied when someone barges into a thread with an ongoing discussion and blurts out "BRO NONE OF THIS MATTERS JUST HAVE FUN INSTEAD."

I'm not sure what your fascination with the concept of things not mattering, being optional, not having to do things, etc. is, but it's rarely, if ever at all, conducive to the discussion at hand.

Well it seems like you interpreted with the wrong presumed connotation in mind. That certainly wasn't mine. I can't really help you with understanding that.

Also your "summation" of my words is highly inaccurate and pretty blatantly obtuse and crude.

It's relevant because Unlucky was responding to someone who said it wasn't important with reasons why it is. Why don't you target the original poster that Unlucky was responding to...?

gigawuts
May 2, 2013, 03:43 PM
Well it seems like you interpreted with the wrong presumed connotation in mind. That certainly wasn't mine. I can't really help you with understanding that.

Also your "summation" of my words is highly inaccurate and pretty blatantly obtuse and crude.

I'm glad you liked it :]

Kierto
May 2, 2013, 04:01 PM
Maybe it's a Ship02 thing but I'm seeing more and more AQ parties with TMG:X each day.

Narrillnezzurh
May 2, 2013, 04:45 PM
Also your "summation" of my words is highly inaccurate and pretty blatantly obtuse and crude.

This is why you're getting so much flak:


This doesn't mean that I'm against people having fun out of pushing their characters to their limits but it means I sort of question why that effort isn't going to something that's more rewarding than PSO2's effort payout. A different game, perhaps. Something in real life even. You're just torturing yourself. It's attitudes similar to this that lead people to become so frustrated over grinding, or never finding the rare they want.

This paragraph essentially boils down to "I don't know why you worry about it, it's pointless anyways."

BlankM
May 2, 2013, 04:51 PM
You guise, this isn't what tier lists are for. Tier lists are for referencing to your friends so you can say you play Low/Mid-tier and are therefore the harder worker/masochist.

MetalDude
May 2, 2013, 05:10 PM
Being dismissive in a discussion that's meant to further delve into things regardless of the positives and negatives is why people are having problems with you Zipzo. Even if it's not a super effective effort to discuss this, I'm sure a lot of people would like classes like Techer to be less terrible at their jobs and just talking about ways to fix it in an exchange of ideas is fun.

Xaeris
May 2, 2013, 05:42 PM
In actual practice, it means "don't knock crap around with Elder Rebellion." No one will care if you take them out for a boss or something that's knock immune.

MetalDude
May 2, 2013, 05:52 PM
I prefer manual aim Infinite Fire where possible anyways, but GU in AQs just seems really impractical to begin with. In our team AQs, we see tons of FO/FI, FO/FI, FO/TE, and me being something else like RA/HU. Shit dies fast.

Cyclon
May 2, 2013, 05:58 PM
You guise, this isn't what tier lists are for. Tier lists are for referencing to your friends so you can say you play Low/Mid-tier and are therefore the harder worker/masochist.
You got it all wrong. Who cares about being seen as a masochist? It's to support the point that you're the better player, since you manage to compete with weaker characters.
You need to actually win from time to time to do that though.

Zipzo
May 2, 2013, 07:28 PM
This paragraph essentially boils down to "I don't know why you worry about it, it's pointless anyways."
No, what that paragraph boils down to is this : While I have nothing against you having fun in whatever way you choose, I question your idea of fun because of superior alternatives. That doesn't make anyone who wants to glue their hand to a calculator and start up a notebook solely dedicated to PSO2 napkin-based math is in the wrong. It doesn't mean anything, which is the point really. I will sit back and go, "Eh, what's the point!"...and you will say "Because we find it fun!"...that's really all the reason you need to win the argument.

The disagreement comes about when someone starts saying that it's more than that. When it's suggested that a tier list is necessary, or that it's something that is relatively or even extremely important to understand, that completely changes everything. This is where I will interject and say, "No, it's not important". Because it isn't. There's nothing wrong with enjoying things that aren't "important", as the word is subjective, but that's just it.

It's an incredibly stealthy form of elitism, if you don't see it. It pops up for any MMORPG, no matter the difficulty level, and I consider myself against that sort of thing...hence my stance.


Being dismissive in a discussion that's meant to further delve into things regardless of the positives and negatives is why people are having problems with you Zipzo. Even if it's not a super effective effort to discuss this, I'm sure a lot of people would like classes like Techer to be less terrible at their jobs and just talking about ways to fix it in an exchange of ideas is fun.I wasn't the first one to even mention that it was pointless, I only came to testify on behalf of others who had already stated it. There's really no need to act like any time there's a disagreement in a topic it's purely because I posted in it. The disagreement came before my presence.

gravityvx
May 2, 2013, 07:43 PM
A tier list in a laughably easy non competitive game where you can kick ass no matter who you play as that's not even a fighter(genre) nor pvp oriented is pointless for the most part, but the threads been pretty informative on a few things, minus a few drive by arguments it still served a good purpose.

Narrillnezzurh
May 2, 2013, 09:46 PM
While I have nothing against you having fun in whatever way you choose, I question your idea of fun because of superior alternatives.

This quote is exactly the same as mine. You don't get why people do it because you don't think there's any reason for them to do it in the first place. Almost word for word, exactly what I said.


When it's suggested that a tier list is necessary, or that it's something that is relatively or even extremely important to understand, that completely changes everything. This is where I will interject and say, "No, it's not important". Because it isn't.

If you're content to merely play the game, you're right. There's little need for any given player to know how the classes stack up against each other, as they all perform in roughly the same ballpark anyways, and all of them can get things done.

As soon as you step outside the role of being merely a machine behind a keyboard, however, tier lists become supremely important as they are the end-all-be-all summary of class balance. Whether you take that step because you want to optimize, make balance related suggestions, compare yourself to other players, or simply understand a little bit more about the game, you must go through the tier list at some point. The tier list isn't elitist in and of itself, not even partially, because it's present whether the players understand it or not. If you think of the tier list as a fact of life, rather than an attempt at classification, it becomes a lot easier to stomach. And it should go without saying, any competent development team will have these sorts of lists in their back pocket at all times for reference purposes.

I certainly agree it isn't necessary for a player to have any knowledge of any sort of tier list to be successful in PSO2. But that doesn't mean it isn't important for a studious player to know, and it doesn't mean it's completely pointless.

gigawuts
May 2, 2013, 09:52 PM
I think it's more like giga doesn't understand the concept of blood or bleeding like a filthy meatbag

No, it's more like Zipzo thinking I treat him in any way special :/

Some people just think everything is about them though, I guess.

edit: and I am incredibly entertained by people talking about things regarding video games being pointless

Fuck dude, video games themselves are pointless, but you don't see anybody ranting on about that here because that's A.) obvious, B.) meaningless to bring up

Or, the point is that it's entertaining, and we all need something to do with our time.

IOW it's not pointless at all.

I mean really now.

UnLucky
May 2, 2013, 10:06 PM
No, what that paragraph boils down to is this : While I have nothing against you having fun in whatever way you choose, I question your idea of fun because of superior alternatives. It doesn't mean anything, which is the point really. I will sit back and go, "Eh, what's the point!"...and you will say "Because we find it fun!"...that's really all the reason you need to win the argument.

The disagreement comes about when someone starts saying that it's more than that. When it's suggested that a tier list is necessary, or that it's something that is relatively or even extremely important to understand, that completely changes everything. This is where I will interject and say, "No, it's not important". Because it isn't. There's nothing wrong with enjoying things that aren't "important", as the word is subjective, but that's just it.

It's an incredibly stealthy form of elitism, if you don't see it. It pops up for any MMORPG, no matter the difficulty level, and I consider myself against that sort of thing...hence my stance.
So you pipe up with a dismissive statement expecting to be dismissed. I can sure see the pointlessness in the discussion.

The hell is a "superior alternative" for fun? So someone is enjoying their current set up. They've got some good gear, near or at cap, and are familiar with the pros and cons of how they play what they play.

"Hey, your class is crap/OP."

So what are they gonna do about it? They could keep doing what they were doing, change their main or sub around and largely continue what they were doing, or make an alt to see what another part of the game is like.

"Why am I getting kicked immediately?" or "Why is everyone playing my class?" because it's not important, that's why. It's pointless to consider why that might be happening. It doesn't matter at all. It's not real.

Is discerning an exact ordering of each of the classes in terms of relative effectiveness crucial to experience the game? No, not really. Are there obviously vast differences between certain classes? Yes, you'd have to be working for Sega not to notice that.

This really isn't so much about elitism, it's about a better understanding of the game. The real elitists can see "Oh, this class is the best, I will play that" and other people can say "I like this class, how is it? Oh.. it's bad? Well [I don't care!]/[what else is similar, but a bit better?]"

Narrillnezzurh
May 2, 2013, 10:14 PM
On an unrelated note (lol?), I think we should have different tier lists for mob and boss killing. A list that attempts to mix the two would be (and is) really ambiguous as far as what the rankings actually mean.

SociableTyrannosaur
May 2, 2013, 10:15 PM
No, it's more like Zipzo thinking I treat him in any way special :/

Some people just think everything is about them though, I guess.

edit: and I am incredibly entertained by people talking about things regarding video games being pointless

Fuck dude, video games themselves are pointless, but you don't see anybody ranting on about that here because that's A.) obvious, B.) meaningless to bring up

Or, the point is that it's entertaining, and we all need something to do with our time.

IOW it's not pointless at all.

I mean really now.


I was trying my hand at humor.



On an unrelated note (lol?), I think we should have different tier lists for mob and boss killing. A list that attempts to mix the two would be (and is) really ambiguous as far as what the rankings actually mean.


I said this about 20 pages ago.

Alisha
May 2, 2013, 10:25 PM
Faster runs actually would denote better chances simply because
more chances == better chances

Not much else to that. Sure, it may be two chances may only be two chances of 0.01 at a drop, but that's still two chances at that drop rather than one which certainly sounds worth it to me.

But PSE Burs-
Are also affected by this, I know. Because if everyone is one hitting enemies instead of them being two hit, you're getting more of them. And if you're getting more of them, allegedly that can even give you more time in the burst itself.

But eh, surely you're right. Why would things like this have anything to do with this game?

the thing about this i believe the journey is more important than the destination. what that means in this context is that if i enjoy using fists im not gonna use a DS to hunt for a fighting beat just because its faster

gigawuts
May 2, 2013, 10:43 PM
If we want to get hyper-meta, life is pointless, since we die.

*puts flashlight under face*

OOOOOOooooooOOOOOOoooo!!

That's the ultimate implication, yes.

Everything is pointless. Yet, here we are. Since we're here and we have to do something while we're here, things aren't actually pointless. The point is to occupy our time because we're programmed to want to do things. Things that entertain us occupy is better than things that don't entertain us as much.

So things have a point.

It's that logical leap some people never actually wind up making, and instead go around blathering about how things are pointless like druggies in dire need of a fix (or in dire need of not getting any more fixes, either/or).

The fact that this even needs explaining is actually kind of depressing.

So since pointlessness has gone full circle, back to the topic I guess?

These lists only really exist to break down the information so that people who are not up to speed on every single class's subtler details can understand their capability without having to read up on them.

That said, a description of why may be a good idea, because the flaw of lists like these imply that things can be as simple as good-meh-awful. Stuff like "Lacking AOE PA's" "Skilltree lacking good damage bonuses" etc.

gravityvx
May 2, 2013, 10:45 PM
No, it's more like Zipzo thinking I treat him in any way special :/

Some people just think everything is about them though, I guess.

edit: and I am incredibly entertained by people talking about things regarding video games being pointless

Fuck dude, video games themselves are pointless, but you don't see anybody ranting on about that here because that's A.) obvious, B.) meaningless to bring up

Or, the point is that it's entertaining, and we all need something to do with our time.

IOW it's not pointless at all.

I mean really now.

I'm glad you're so entertained about how pointless some things obviously are and how pointless pointing that point out was.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/Thatguyobliv/TrollFaceForm2.png (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/Thatguyobliv/media/TrollFaceForm2.png.html)[/SPOILER-BOX]

MetalDude
May 2, 2013, 10:55 PM
Hunter:
Pros: Partisans primarily for Assault Buster deals astounding damage and has great range. Swords have Sonic Arrow and Over End which are all you'll ever need for them. Damage bonuses from tree are huge, namely JAB and FS/U making it great on its own and as probably the best RA sub possible.

Cons: The difference between an offensive and defensive build is no where near rewarding enough with the way Fury Stance is now. The damage disparity severely hampers defensive builds and the game just isn't cooperative enough with a tank build to really be viable in the long run. Gear building on the Sword is terrible in all-too common situations where enemies die quickly so charged PAs are utter trash and don't have the base damage to compensate.

Fighter:
Pros: Double Saber, therefore Deadly Archer, Weapon Action for solid AoE, Stances provide a substantial damage boost.

Cons: Kind of shallow skill tree outside of stances and chase advance. Weapon selection is really terrible and in dire need of improvements besides the aforementioned Double Saber. Outside of DS WA, FI has really awful AoE (which is mostly intended) which they make up for in the absolute best non-WB damage in the game.

Melee pros in general include probably the best boss killing abilities overall, especially those pesky dragons.

Alisha
May 2, 2013, 11:00 PM
Hunter:
Pros: Partisans primarily for Assault Buster deals astounding damage and has great range. Swords have Sonic Arrow and Over End which are all you'll ever need for them. Damage bonuses from tree are huge, namely JAB and FS/U making it great on its own and as probably the best RA sub possible.

Cons: The difference between an offensive and defensive build is no where near rewarding enough with the way Fury Stance is now. The damage disparity severely hampers defensive builds and the game just isn't cooperative enough with a tank build to really be viable in the long run. Gear building on the Sword is terrible in all-too common situations where enemies die quickly so charged PAs are utter trash and don't have the base damage to compensate.

Fighter:
Pros: Double Saber, therefore Deadly Archer, Weapon Action for solid AoE, Stances provide a substantial damage boost.

Cons: Kind of shallow skill tree outside of stances and chase advance. Weapon selection is really terrible and in dire need of improvements besides the aforementioned Double Saber. Outside of DS WA, FI has really awful AoE (which is mostly intended) which they make up for in the absolute best non-WB damage in the game.

Melee pros in general include probably the best boss killing abilities overall, especially those pesky dragons.

wired lance says hello.

MetalDude
May 2, 2013, 11:04 PM
I thought I typed in WL's but apparently not. I just don't think they're that great at all. Swords and Partisans provide coverage at a significantly faster and stronger rate and WL grapple PAs are largely disruptive to party play. Cerberus Dance is decent but has very low mobility.

gigawuts
May 2, 2013, 11:05 PM
I thought I typed in WL's but apparently not. I just don't think they're that great at all. Swords and Partisans provide coverage at a significantly faster and stronger rate and WL grapple PAs are largely disruptive to party play. Cerberus Dance is decent but has very low mobility.

Other Spin, Grapple Charge, Holding Current, and Heavenly Fall.

Or, hell, just Other Spin x3. It's a very versatile PA, with the nice bonus of hitting at a distance like deadly archer while simultaneously pulling things towards its center - while radiating the damage from the exact center, too. An enemy's midpoint will be drawn to the center where it will take damage, which is a very handy ability against a good number of enemies (cyclos and kuklos for one).

MetalDude
May 2, 2013, 11:07 PM
Holding Current and Heavenly Fall are definitely very powerful (if not without kind of dumb issues like HC not dealing damage to targets stuck in walls and HF not dealing the shockwave on dead targets). Other Spin is also good.

I haven't used Grapple Charge in a while because most of my memories of it were getting enemies stuck in walls and generally dealing mediocre damage with it.

gigawuts
May 2, 2013, 11:10 PM
It depends on the situation.

I only really use other spin and cerberus dance against trash mobs, when the situation calls for it (during bursts, maybe). Other Spin CAN be good on some bosses, due to its distanced hitbox thing, though.

The other moves are actually best on bosses, with grapple charge drawing you to an enemy and lining up a JA'd heavenly fall in situations deadly archer will not work as well. It takes some getting used to for the distancing, but it's very efficient. When you get a good handle on the distance you can use it to pull yourself to a breakable part on the opposite side of the enemy, going from one side to the other right through a boss. I regularly did this against banthers and quartz dragon for a good while.

MetalDude
May 2, 2013, 11:12 PM
I have never thought of the boss strat possiblities with WLs before so I'm really interested in seeing this in action now.

gigawuts
May 2, 2013, 11:16 PM
Every WL PA is actually quite good at what it does, with MUCH better balance than any other melee weapon by far. Some are more situational than others, but the difference in utility is not NEARLY as wide as the other melee weapon types. The only exception is Bind Through, which seems like it needs work and is merely bugged (there are some iffy mechanics for the grab target/orb messing with JA circles and actually giving you hitstop after you've released the target). Air Pocket Swing is situational, but exceptionally good at hitting things from above and offering a sustainable means of elevating yourself and crossing gaps as a HU without daggers or mechguns, albeit a slow one.

MetalDude
May 2, 2013, 11:17 PM
While this doesn't necessarily apply to the class tier list, I seriously wish Sega would balance more PAs and Techs. It's nice to be strong, but having some variety without seriously suffering for it would do wonders.

Also, TMG PAs being more than just ER ER ER ER ER IR would be cool. Like SA getting more range than a foot long stick would be awesome because it's actually decent but can't hit shit that's a yard away.

Rosel
May 2, 2013, 11:21 PM
Horrible, horrible tier list.

Zipzo
May 2, 2013, 11:43 PM
No, it's more like Zipzo thinking I treat him in any way special :/
LOL, you don't? You practically stick to my posts like velcro, sniffing them up and down for every chance you can get to look stylishly heroic in your snarky replies. You have a way of making me feel pretty damn special all on your own giga-love! In the end, you will use your better than somewhat-average logic to always have a way to "thwart" mine own. I'm pretty sure there's *something* on this planet we agree on, but if I came out and said grass was green you'd still find something worth picking on. You're you afterall. Now on to posts that are worth anything...


This quote is exactly the same as mine. You don't get why people do it because you don't think there's any reason for them to do it in the first place. Almost word for word, exactly what I said.
No, it isn't the same. You can't just...dictate that they are. They aren't. I'll explain it to you. It's not the same because I do know why people do it.


As soon as you step outside the role of being merely a machine behind a keyboard, however, tier lists become supremely important as they are the end-all-be-all summary of class balance. Whether you take that step because you want to optimize, make balance related suggestions, compare yourself to other players, or simply understand a little bit more about the game, you must go through the tier list at some point. The tier list isn't elitist in and of itself, not even partially, because it's present whether the players understand it or not. If you think of the tier list as a fact of life, rather than an attempt at classification, it becomes a lot easier to stomach. And it should go without saying, any competent development team will have these sorts of lists in their back pocket at all times for reference purposes.Oh we are at a very supreme disagreement here. Tier lists are made by players who, all generally have a very limited focal point of reference for how they decide the quality or efficiency of something, especially things they aren't experienced in. "Hunters suck because whenever I play with one they can't do any damage", "Forces are amazing, they always kill everything in every party I'm in", "Hunters can be awesome, I had this one kill this boss so fast the other night", "Ranger is awesome, I pwn when I play Ranger". What it ends up coming down to when you shovel past all of that is the pure math behind the literal strength of each class...and this still doesn't make any class better than the other. It's because of the mechanics, and how many flexibilities there are, coupled with how easy the game is, that makes these minute differences impossible to actually observe, thus a tier list that any single player could think up invalid in a sense, because you have no examples of classes being pushed to their utter limits where failure is involved if that limit is not pushed. All we have is potential, and potential is such a weak thing to make a tier list off of. It's incredibly weak in all theoretical corners.

If nothing near max potential is not required, then potential in and of itself cannot be the grounds for which you rank something because potential from the get go is deemed unimportant. I certainly don't think exploring your class and bettering your game is a bad thing...that's not what this is about. This is about tier lists. Obviously getting better at the game is...necessary to most players enjoyment of the game. Even terrible ones...since if you're bad you'll die a lot and dying isn't fun. That's a mistake you seem to be making here, that because I think tier lists are pointless that I think getting good at the game is pointless. These are pretty ridiculously different things. You don't need a tier list to improve your gameplay. All a community-made tier list does is make you feel hipster, or part of the bandwagon.

I think I explained it right, but I'm sure this will get picked apart. Let me repeat myself though, just in case...getting better at the game is normal. Tier lists are pointless. You seemed to have a grasp on this difference based on your last sentence but...just making sure.

UnLucky
May 3, 2013, 12:30 AM
A tier list in a laughably easy non competitive game where you can kick ass no matter who you play as that's not even a fighter(genre) nor pvp oriented is pointless for the most part, but the threads been pretty informative on a few things, minus a few drive by arguments it still served a good purpose.

I think I will just quote this post instead of reply to that other one

and maybe stick this in here as well:

On an unrelated note (lol?), I think we should have different tier lists for mob and boss killing. A list that attempts to mix the two would be (and is) really ambiguous as far as what the rankings actually mean.

Top 5 Boss Killers:

Gu/Ra
Ra/Hu
Hu/Fi
Fi/Hu
Fo/Fi


Top 5 Mob Clearers:

Ra/Hu
Fo/Fi
Fo/Te
Hu/Fi
Fi/Hu

FenixStryk
May 3, 2013, 06:40 AM
This thread was good for a laugh.

Tier lists are as useful as the data used to gather them. Regrettably, tiering classes in PSO2 isn't as clear to observers as gathering and tallying up all of the matchup stats in a fighting game. Regardless, I'm sure a plurality of players, even PSO-W users, would agree that some classes are better than others at single-target damage (bosses) or AoE damage (mob clearing) -- even if things like gear, party composition or the exact enemy type / pattern can add inaccuracies to data acquisition. That amount of information is all you need for a Tier List... albeit, not a good one.

If I recall correctly, there were patch cycles where FO, RA and GU were all considered OP, while HU and TE were considered rubbish... how hard is it to extrapolate that said classes were considered generally High or Low Tier within those windows? Denying tiers on a conceptual level is indefensible; rather, you would want to argue that tiers in this game don't provide particularly new or useful information to act on.

PSO-W constructing an individual class tier list worth any non-zero amount of salt may be asking for too much. Even if you narrow it down to "Which class(es) are best at Time Attack X?," I can't imagine you guys will ever get farther than pointing out what the Shit Tier party compositions are -- and at that point, trying to play strictly High Tier will get you nowhere if you lack min/maxed gear or don't know the skips for each TA map.

Good luck~.

BIG OLAF
May 3, 2013, 06:43 AM
Granted, giggles and I are hardly warring nations...

a'scuse me, you don't get to call him 'Giggles', dahlin'. That's a reserved privilege. *hair flip*


PSO-W constructing an individual class tier list worth any non-zero amount of salt may be asking for too much. Even if you narrow it down to "Which class(es) are best at Time Attack X?," I can't imagine you guys will ever get farther than pointing out what the Shit Tier party compositions are -- and at that point, trying to play strictly High Tier will get you nowhere if you lack min/maxed gear or don't know the skips for each TA map.

Good luck~.

Based on the high levels of condescension, I assume you already have it all figured out, and are challenging the no doubt dense masses to match your brilliance, then?

FenixStryk
May 3, 2013, 07:02 AM
Based on the high levels of condescension, I assume you already have it all figured out, and are challenging the no doubt dense masses to match your brilliance, then?Oh no, I can't help you. If I could have, I would have done so in that same post. Rather, my point was that a Catch-All Tier List is about as useful as... well, any random post sampled from this very thread. You'll need something that can be more easily tested, and users that are actually able to provide accurate data.

Speaking of, how many multi-class experts with adequate gear does PSO-W have, that are also willing to contribute? I can't imagine very many. That problem, however, is for you to solve.

thematesV2
May 3, 2013, 08:41 AM
I rank the best classes for boss runs AND mob runs as the same.
A 4/4 party of various classed players joined up in a 12/12 multiparty, using all weaps/techs/arts needed to completely fill the screen with SFX and photonburst rainbow sparkles and lots of goons getting blown up, lofted, and all around dead.

it doesn't get any more refined and gooder than that.

ShinMaruku
May 3, 2013, 08:42 AM
How did I miss this shit storm? Oh well I just hope you guys know that this game can be very fucked up.

Coatl
May 3, 2013, 08:47 AM
I liked it better when we were talking about skimpy dresses..



Top 5 Boss Killers:

Gu/Ra
Ra/Hu
Hu/Fi
Fi/Hu
Fo/Fi



Really, the list starts to fall apart when you consider bosses like Vardha, Goronzoran, etc. There is no one class that kills every boss the fastest, and there is no one class that kills every mob the fastest.

SociableTyrannosaur
May 3, 2013, 08:56 AM
Oh no, I can't help you. If I could have, I would have done so in that same post. Rather, my point was that a Catch-All Tier List is about as useful as... well, any random post sampled from this very thread. You'll need something that can be more easily tested, and users that are actually able to provide accurate data.

Speaking of, how many multi-class experts with adequate gear does PSO-W have, that are also willing to contribute? I can't imagine very many. That problem, however, is for you to solve.

A few of us exist. Don't let my sig fool you.


I liked it better when we were talking about skimpy dresses..



Really, the list starts to fall apart when you consider bosses like Vardha, Goronzoran, etc. There is no one class that kills every boss the fastest, and there is no one class that kills every mob the fastest.

you can base it on an average. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

gigawuts
May 3, 2013, 09:13 AM
Who around here has been here since launch and DOESN'T play multiple class types with good gear? :/

SociableTyrannosaur
May 3, 2013, 09:34 AM
Who around here has been here since launch and DOESN'T play multiple class types with good gear? :/

I was being ironic...you know...made of iron.

those of us who've been playing...actually playing for over 1500-2000 hours...most of us are sitting on upper end equipment for every class we play.

I just mentioned my sig cause it's my ship 2 account and says nothing about my ship 9 (main) account. Strongly considering a migration to ship 2 on my main account though.

Bellion
May 3, 2013, 09:45 AM
Top 5 boss killers(imo)
1. Ra/Hu
2. Gu/Ra
3. Fi/Hu
4. Hu/Fi
5. ...Don't know

DA is used against more bosses than OE which is why Fi/Hu is ranked higher.
Deciding if 5th place belongs to something like Gu/Hu or Fo/Fi.

Mob killing
1. Ra/Hu
2. Fi/Hu
3. Hu/Fi
4. Fo/Fi
5. Fo/Te

Ra/Hu 8k+ Addition Bullets and 12k+ Cluster Bullets. Not even counting Standing Snipe Bonus.
The reason I ranked Fi/Hu over Hu/Fi here is because a Lambda Patilumeria is enough to hit 8k+ on mobs in AQs which is pretty much a one-shot. Also, stronger DA for something annoying like a Gu/Gawonda or King Yetis.
Fo/Fi losing their ability to one shot most mobs in AQs brings it down a bit. Zondeel and Zonde is still worth noting, especially against mechanical enemies in which you're hitting 7k+ easily with a dedicated lightning tree.

Skyly HUmar
May 3, 2013, 10:15 AM
Top 5 boss killers(imo)
1. Ra/Hu
2. Gu/Ra
3. Fi/Hu
4. Hu/Fi
5. ...Don't know

DA is used against more bosses than OE which is why Fi/Hu is ranked higher.
Deciding if 5th place belongs to something like Gu/Hu or Fo/Fi.

Mob killing
1. Ra/Hu
2. Fi/Hu
3. Hu/Fi
4. Fo/Fi
5. Fo/Te

Ra/Hu 8k+ Addition Bullets and 12k+ Cluster Bullets. Not even counting Standing Snipe Bonus.
The reason I ranked Fi/Hu over Hu/Fi here is because a Lambda Patilumeria is enough to hit 8k+ on mobs in AQs which is pretty much a one-shot. Also, stronger DA for something annoying like a Gu/Gawonda or King Yetis.
Fo/Fi losing their ability to one shot most mobs in AQs brings it down a bit. Zondeel and Zonde is still worth noting, especially against mechanical enemies in which you're hitting 7k+ easily with a dedicated lightning tree.

I think hu/fi is a better mob killer because of AoE and the fact that my slide end is a constant 10k and my ass buster a 9.3k. For bosses, obviously fi/hu isnt as gear dependant and they can get their damage rolling instantly, but for mobs gotta go hu/fi.

Coatl
May 3, 2013, 10:19 AM
HU/FI or FI/HU, the all-class partisan has enough power to one-shot most enemies in AQ. Going HU/FI for a better partisan won't really give you much of a performance boost.

Z-0
May 3, 2013, 10:48 AM
Yeah, the only reason I would bother going Hu/Fi is for particular bosses which require Over End or something, because Fi/Hu one shots exactly like Hu/Fi.

MetalDude
May 3, 2013, 11:22 AM
If rare banther would drop me that damn 11+ AB already ;.;

gigawuts
May 3, 2013, 11:25 AM
Yeah, the only reason I would bother going Hu/Fi is for particular bosses which require Over End or something, because Fi/Hu one shots exactly like Hu/Fi.

I wish they'd expand on this even more :/

Give HU another 25% HP, and give FI another 25% ability and SATK.

Do that to all the classes, so order means more than just which allclass weapons you need.

Coatl
May 3, 2013, 11:44 AM
I wish they'd expand on this even more :/

Give HU another 25% HP, and give FI another 25% ability and SATK.

Do that to all the classes, so order means more than just which allclass weapons you need.

If the extreme quests really grant us access to *11s, sub class and main class will matter even less. We'll be able to have a good weapon for whatever class, regardless of the main. That's if the *11s are able to be worn by two classes like the current ones are.

Zipzo
May 3, 2013, 12:34 PM
This thread was good for a laugh.

Tier lists are as useful as the data used to gather them. Regrettably, tiering classes in PSO2 isn't as clear to observers as gathering and tallying up all of the matchup stats in a fighting game. Regardless, I'm sure a plurality of players, even PSO-W users, would agree that some classes are better than others at single-target damage (bosses) or AoE damage (mob clearing) -- even if things like gear, party composition or the exact enemy type / pattern can add inaccuracies to data acquisition. That amount of information is all you need for a Tier List... albeit, not a good one.

If I recall correctly, there were patch cycles where FO, RA and GU were all considered OP, while HU and TE were considered rubbish... how hard is it to extrapolate that said classes were considered generally High or Low Tier within those windows? Denying tiers on a conceptual level is indefensible; rather, you would want to argue that tiers in this game don't provide particularly new or useful information to act on.

PSO-W constructing an individual class tier list worth any non-zero amount of salt may be asking for too much. Even if you narrow it down to "Which class(es) are best at Time Attack X?," I can't imagine you guys will ever get farther than pointing out what the Shit Tier party compositions are -- and at that point, trying to play strictly High Tier will get you nowhere if you lack min/maxed gear or don't know the skips for each TA map.

Good luck~.

Did me and Fenix just...echo one another? Pretty much took everything I've already said and double downed on it.

A. The list is compiled based on merely observation of a variety of possibly not very observant users, and a handful or less of timing/stat reasons (such as wands VS rods making force ultimately superior to techer), doubled up with personal experience and the variety of experiences possible based on the combat mechanics and variety of enemies...this makes for a pretty wide area of interpretation.
B. It's information that is neither helpful nor un-helpful (ahem...pointless) because the differences aren't difficult to discern anyway, since the list is made based off this type of observation.
C. There is no means for which classes are challenged to the point that you can actually theorize that certain classes are truly and 100% better than others, since all classes have strengths in completing or doing certain things, yet no classes have difficulty completing them all in general.


you can base it on an average. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
There is something wrong with it.

Let's take a day where you're farming or grinding 1 specific boss for a rare that your class is not the best at killing. For that day, at the least, your class is not high tier. The average highest tier class was also not your best choice for that day either. Since this game is about grinding for rares...let's assume that repetition is mostly the case here.

You'd basically have to make a tier list for every. single. boss, and to a degree for many of the different missions, or AQ's, or TA's.

Splitting it between mob clearing and bosses isn't nearly specific enough for what a tier list is aiming to materialize.

Cyclon
May 3, 2013, 03:10 PM
Did me and Fenix just...echo one another? Pretty much took everything I've already said and double downed on it.
No.

A. The list is compiled based on merely observation of a variety of possibly not very observant users, and a handful or less of timing/stat reasons (such as wands VS rods making force ultimately superior to techer), doubled up with personal experience and the variety of experiences possible based on the combat mechanics and variety of enemies...this makes for a pretty wide area of interpretation.
B. It's information that is neither helpful nor un-helpful (ahem...pointless) because the differences aren't difficult to discern anyway, since the list is made based off this type of observation.
C. There is no means for which classes are challenged to the point that you can actually theorize that certain classes are truly and 100% better than others, since all classes have strengths in completing or doing certain things, yet no classes have difficulty completing them all in general.
A:If you want a flawless result, you use machines. Otherwise you accept that not everything's gonna be perfect and that this must not stop you. Yeah, tier lists are hard to make, and potentially very wrong even if lots of people put lots of sincere efforts into it. That's how it goes.
Anyway no, a tier list isn't made of observations only. Not a good one anyway. Exhaustive analysis is a very big part in making one.
B:Actually, it's the precise opposite. Tier lists are very hard to understand for the common reader, because they are often largely based on advanced mechanics and details that he may not be aware of.
C:Someone should have answered this I guess, since as a resut you still think that's correct. A tier list is theory, but is not MADE of theories; it's made of facts. If the maximum potential of classes isn't relevant in-game, then it won't be relevant to the tier list. That's a factor of misunderstanding actually, since classes with very high potential but low general output can be about anywhere in tier lists. And none of these options would be wrong, it simply depends on the game. Also, as lots of people already told you, the fact every class can tear through the content is a non-issue, since there will still be classes that do it better/faster or can help doing so. By the way imo ranger is top just by considering weak bullet, so combinations of ranger with a sub-class that also makes it deal considerable all-around damage would be god tier, but whatever.

Let's take a day where you're farming or grinding 1 specific boss for a rare that your class is not the best at killing. For that day, at the least, your class is not high tier. The average highest tier class was also not your best choice for that day either.
That would be irrelevant. Tier lists and gameplay are two different things, and actually have relatively little to do with each other. That's how theorycrafters aren't necessarily good players.

You'd basically have to make a tier list for every. single. boss, and to a degree for many of the different missions, or AQ's, or TA's.
You got it all wrong. There is but one TRUE tier list per game, that regroups everything.

Splitting it between mob clearing and bosses isn't nearly specific enough for what a tier list is aiming to materialize.
I think you haven't got the slightest idea of what a tier list is aiming to materialize really. A tier list is a theoretically absolute BUT simple-in-its-form ranking taking every single piece of data and variable in game to order the player's main options by relevant-to-the-game efficiency. Nothing more, nothing less. Basically it's perfect, but still all theory, because they're based on flawless data, while actual gameplay isn't. It's used mainly at very high levels of play(but not only in fighting games) as a guideline for players who can understand them. The reasons can(and should)be explained afterwards, but there is but one true necessary list.
If you still don't understand, think of it as a glorified average.

Now is it mostly worthless here? Yes, in my opinion anyway. Can we make a good one if you guys keep bickering at each other every three pages or so? Probably not. Is there any use in TRYING to make one here? Yes. It provides ground for debate and discussion about high-end game content for those who enjoy that. So what if we don't come up with a perfect tier list? Trying to get there is what's interesting.

And not to worry, if this topic isn't needed, it'll die. Simple as that.

Rewrote this piece of stuff several times, so it may be painful to read. I'll edit if needed.

Narrillnezzurh
May 3, 2013, 03:52 PM
You got it all wrong. There is but one TRUE tier list per game, that regroups everything.

On this point I have to disagree. If every player did exactly the same things everyday then yes, there would be a single "true" tier list. But since this is not the case, a single tier list would be completely ambiguous as far as what the rankings actually signify. The class at the top might be the "best," but what would it be the best at? On one hand, it could be at the top because it is the best at a single arbitrarily determined aspect of the game, like killing static bosses with multiple target-able parts. It might be completely awful at every other aspect of the game, but because the creators of the tier list deemed that to be the most important part of the game, that class would be at the top. On the other hand, rankings could be determined by an equally arbitrary composite score, determined by numerical analysis of a set of statistics collected by a large, indiscriminate number of players. In this case the only way to understand what makes the top class so powerful is to examine the equations behind the composite. Depending on the complexity of the equation, even the most theory-savvy players might still not have a good grasp on what the ranking actually means.

The only way to truly understand where the classes stand is to examine them in every aspect of the game and create a tier list for each aspect.

gravityvx
May 3, 2013, 04:08 PM
A real tier list that is to be taken seriously takes an extremely large amount of time and a large fraction of the more higher end player base from the community with a large amount of knowledge on the game, it's mechanics, how all the classes work at highest effectiveness and the lowest. Then you'd also have to have them evaluate every single enemy matchup vs that said class vs the other classes. And you have to do this with everyone and it would have to be thoroughly tested with many different tree builds....for an mmo, that changes so frequently and isn't really that difficult to begin with I don't think it's worth the time and effort. Long story short though, you don't need multiple tier lists as a tier is supposed to take absolutely everything into consideration, everything.

Cyclon
May 3, 2013, 04:14 PM
On this point I have to disagree. If every player did exactly the same things everyday then yes, there would be a single "true" tier list. But since this is not the case, a single tier list would be completely ambiguous as far as what the rankings actually signify. The class at the top might be the "best," but what would it be the best at? On one hand, it could be at the top because it is the best at a single arbitrarily determined aspect of the game, like killing static bosses with multiple target-able parts. It might be completely awful at every other aspect of the game, but because the creators of the tier list deemed that to be the most important part of the game, that class would be at the top. On the other hand, rankings could be determined by an equally arbitrary composite score, determined by numerical analysis of a set of statistics collected by a large, indiscriminate number of players. In this case the only way to understand what makes the top class so powerful is to examine the equations behind the composite. Depending on the complexity of the equation, even the most theory-savvy players might still not have a good grasp on what the ranking actually means.

The only way to truly understand where the classes stand is to examine them in every aspect of the game and create a tier list for each aspect.
A tier list is not made to be self-explanatory. That's why in-depth explanations exist. Fact is, some aspects of the game are more important than others, and some classes are better than others in the most important aspects. So by definition, an absolute tier list does exist, and can be made. How useful it is is up to everyone's opinion really, but that's basically what a tier list is from what I've seen. Further than that, you guys are free to do as you want, of course.

UnLucky
May 3, 2013, 04:31 PM
There only needs to be one tier list.

An overall ranking in general.

If one class is the best vs one specific boss, but it sucks against every other enemy, then it's not top tier. It has one good matchup. That's it.

If one class is the topmost DPS and survivability against 90% of the content, but second best in 8%, and not really very good against 2%, then it can still be top tier. If that 2% grows or becomes the most important aspect of the game for some reason, then the tier list could change.

Did me and Fenix just...echo one another? Pretty much took everything I've already said and double downed on it.
And no, you really did not.

He said it would be really hard to make a concrete tier list. You said there's no point in really trying.

Narrillnezzurh
May 3, 2013, 04:40 PM
I'm probably speaking more to rankings in general, then. But we have to remember, this isn't a fighting game. We can't break gameplay down into concrete "matchups," and the objective is not the same for every discrete encounter. A single tier list is great for a fighting game, as you can usually determine what the rankings signify at a glance, but for something more diverse like a cooperative MMO it's more difficult to understand what makes one particular class the "best."

Zipzo
May 3, 2013, 04:44 PM
He said it would be really hard to make a concrete tier list. You said there's no point in really trying.

If it's so hard that it's beyond anyone heres' ability (based on the actual effort required to come up with an accurate "list")...then are they really that different? Sure, mine is slightly more defeatist...but let's be realistic here. No point duking it out with semantics.


A tier list is not made to be self-explanatory. That's why in-depth explanations exist. Fact is, some aspects of the game are more important than others, and some classes are better than others in the most important aspects. So by definition, an absolute tier list does exist, and can be made. How useful it is is up to everyone's opinion really, but that's basically what a tier list is from what I've seen. Further than that, you guys are free to do as you want, of course
This...isn't at all true. What's most important in the game is completely subjective to the player.

You can in-ostensibly and undeniably claim that in a fighting game (where tier lists are prominent), that winning is the most important aspect of the game. The only other thing you can do is lose, and losing is never positive for the loser. So tier lists are based on which characters are the easiest to win with based on their skill set.

In a casual MORPG like PSO2, you don't to get decide what aspect is "most important" to anyone. If someone chooses to log on purely to attend in-game virtual weddings and run a mission every now and then, there's no rule book that says they are not doing it right. That's the nature of most good MMORPGs on the market, giving you the freedom to do whatever you want. Sure, leveling up, getting stronger is a really prominent aspect of about each and every single one...so you could say that a tier list for the fastest leveler or the easiest-to-gear-up-with class is valid...why don't we make tier lists for who can kick a can down the road the farthest? Who can name the most bands? Because it's pointless, all of these are easy, so why does a tier list need to be made?

I personally think casts look way cooler than humans (even though I picked a human ugh), so in my mind, casts are high tier because hey...in my game...fashion is the most important aspect!

High tier
Casts

Meh tier
Humans
Newmans

I hope they never come back tier
Beasts


A real tier list that is to be taken seriously takes an extremely large amount of time and a large fraction of the more higher end player base from the community with a large amount of knowledge on the game, it's mechanics, how all the classes work at highest effectiveness and the lowest. Then you'd also have to have them evaluate every single enemy matchup vs that said class vs the other classes. And you have to do this with everyone and it would have to be thoroughly tested with many different tree builds....for an mmo, that changes so frequently and isn't really that difficult to begin with I don't think it's worth the time and effort. Long story short though, you don't need multiple tier lists as a tier is supposed to take absolutely everything into consideration, everything.
Uhm...exactly!

It's like people are afraid to play on my team. I do hand out banana stickers for playing on my team though. Good deal I say.

Narrillnezzurh
May 3, 2013, 04:57 PM
In a casual MORPG like PSO2, you don't to get decide what aspect is "most important" to anyone. If someone chooses to log on purely to attend in-game virtual weddings and run a mission every now and then, there's no rule book that says they are not doing it right.

I have to disagree with this as well. It should go almost without saying that a tier list claiming to be objective would be based on the only objective aspect of the game: combat. It should also go almost without saying that the objective of combat is to get it done in a manner that best serves at least one of the three major combat related rewards present in the game; in this case, EXP, meseta, and gear.

You don't get to discount a tier list because someone likes to log in and socialize rather than play, that isn't the sort of thing that tier lists, in general, deal with. You can, however, discount a tier list based on the fact that there are several different variations of combat, each with its own mechanics and measures of success, and that efficiency in a group setting depends on more than how much damage you can deal to a target in a given time frame.

Gardios
May 3, 2013, 05:11 PM
I think it was quite obvious that this topic was aimed towards the combat specifically, not fashion or whatever...

gigawuts
May 3, 2013, 05:22 PM
lol is someone actually saying tier lists can't be valid in any game, at all, because some people like to chat or might prefer something else?

oh jesus

oh, oh wow

Jay6
May 3, 2013, 05:41 PM
I just play the classes I find most fun to play as without worrying about tiers, or what the "best" is. I find Fo/Te fun due to always having the ability to blow **** up. When I'm any other class, I feel like I'm not playing how I should, and I don't kill enemies or bosses as quickly. Though, I did get HU/FI to 46/46, and RA/GU to 51/51... even after my FO/TE reached 60/60, I still play on it.

Cyclon
May 3, 2013, 05:43 PM
If it's so hard that it's beyond anyone heres' ability (based on the actual effort required to come up with an accurate "list")...then are they really that different? Sure, mine is slightly more defeatist...but let's be realistic here. No point duking it out with semantics.
I can sincerely tell you that at no point while reading his post I felt like he was saying the same thing as you.

This...isn't at all true. What's most important in the game is completely subjective to the player.
What most players think of as important would be the most important aspect then.

You can in-ostensibly and undeniably claim that in a fighting game (where tier lists are prominent), that winning is the most important aspect of the game.
But can you? You can taunt too. You can play like a pacifist.

I personally think casts look way cooler than humans (even though I picked a human ugh), so in my mind, casts are high tier because hey...in my game...fashion is the most important aspect!

High tier
Casts

Meh tier
Humans
Newmans

I hope they never come back tier
Beasts
You know what? You are perfectly correct. You should make your own topic though, since that's not what this one's about.

why does a tier list need to be made?
Because people want one?

lol is someone actually saying tier lists can't be valid in any game, at all, because some people like to chat or might prefer something else?

oh jesus

oh, oh wow
Please.

UnLucky
May 3, 2013, 05:53 PM
If it's so hard that it's beyond anyone heres' ability (based on the actual effort required to come up with an accurate "list")...then are they really that different? Sure, mine is slightly more defeatist...but let's be realistic here. No point duking it out with semantics.
Fenix: "I think we need more people to provide more statistics, facts, calculations, and informed experience in order to create a valuable tier list"

Zipzo: "lmao more like tear list, right nerds?"

BlankM
May 3, 2013, 05:54 PM
The thread was going fine for a while. Its simple enough, if you don't think the game needs a tier list or don't care to discuss it, say your piece and just let everyone else continue to do so.

Some people enjoy discussing what depth there is, even if you don't consider it to have much. A lot of people find it fun to improve and take the game to its limits. One could argue endlessly on the "pointlessness" of anything, but its paradoxically baseless and lacks just as much substance as the opposition that a game "needs tier lists."

No game "needs" tier lists, but classes can clearly still be tiered here. Can a lot of the class combinations be played just fine? Certainly. Are they all balanced? No, they are not. Certain combinations are more efficient then others and some people have an interest in finding out which ones.

A lot of people seem to care more about arguing how their playstyle is not bad, or that certain classes actually do better in x situation. Thats fine, but thats not what tier lists are supposed to figure out for you. They're an overall ranking based on data. In a fighting game you would start with a matchup chart, and the person with the highest ranking in advantageous matchups would be at the top. In this case you could have a variety of factors here. DPS vs x amount of bosses, efficiency at killing mobs in x amount of areas, speed and utility. These are tangible things you can rank, and can be tested without subjectivity.

This does not say anything about human gameplay. Because not everyone is going to be super efficient, spawns aren't always pre-set in every gameplay mode, situations are going to arise that are specific to certain party and gear combinations etc. Its just an overall ranking of theoretically provable assets that're better in some classes then others.

Ryock
May 3, 2013, 06:14 PM
Ken is low tier because he dyes his hair and has a stupid face and I hate him.

That's sooooooo not true.
[spoiler-box]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/3179252934_bf6bd0d9d5.jpg?v=0[/spoiler-box]

Okay, so maybe it is.

On topic. People will create any tier list they want for any reason they desire, and if they want to, just let them. Some people get a real kick out of number crunching and being as efficient and OP as possible. I know the feeling, I've done it a lot in MMOs for a long time like Aion, Ragnarok Online, etc. So I certainly understand the mentality behind it. For some people it depends on the game. For example, I myself don't find number crunching or being OP as possible to be important in a pve game unless it's absolutely required, like a timer for the boss to start using attacks, resistances, etc. This game is not complex enough to warrant that kind of strategy though. All bosses are made easy through weak bullet, patterns are highly predictable, tanking doesn't have a good enough presence, etc. So for me personally, I don't really care a whole ton to number crunch this time around.

However, if this were like... Dark Poeta from Aion, Nameless Island from Ragnarok Online, or even hunting MVPs in general in Ragnarok Online, that's a different story. Number crunching and being efficient is extremely important since there's competition for a monster, or an area, or leveling efficiency. In a game like PSO, where rooms can be held to yourself, there's not much reason to hit the cap, and monsters aren't hard to kill at all, for me personally, I don't feel there's much reason to number crunch. But that's just me. For others, they like the TA contests, the rankings, efficiency, etc. They get a kick out of it, and that's just how they like to play the game. It doesn't make them an elitist, it doesn't make them a jerk, it's just a preference of play style is all.

Though I will say that tier lists generally make a lot more sense in fighting games for the simple reason that there's one goal. Fight. Fight and try to win. That's why they're called fighting games. So thus, fighting games get tier lists asap, cause everyone wants to know the potential of each character so they know who has what advantage and disadvantage on who. It's a tool that is generally seen as a necessity simply for the fact that the game has only one goal that everyone is supposed to attempt to grab. Fighting with the mentality that winning is what matters. So in the sense of fighting games, tier lists are very helpful in understanding what your good and bad matchups are when picking a character.

tl;dr: If people wanna make tier lists, let them. They're not bad. They're helpful for those who find them a necessity in many situations. In a case like this, it seems speed, efficiency, and power are what make a high tier class combo. If you don't like it, then just leave it to those who wanna discuss it.

Btw, I vote Fo/Fi, Fo/Te, Hu/Ra, and Hu/Fi for top. Personal opinion.

Sayara
May 3, 2013, 09:24 PM
The thread was going fine for a while. Its simple enough, if you don't think the game needs a tier list or don't care to discuss it, say your piece and just let everyone else continue to do so.

Some people enjoy discussing what depth there is, even if you don't consider it to have much. A lot of people find it fun to improve and take the game to its limits. One could argue endlessly on the "pointlessness" of anything, but its paradoxically baseless and lacks just as much substance as the opposition that a game "needs tier lists."

No game "needs" tier lists, but classes can clearly still be tiered here. Can a lot of the class combinations be played just fine? Certainly. Are they all balanced? No, they are not. Certain combinations are more efficient then others and some people have an interest in finding out which ones.

A lot of people seem to care more about arguing how their playstyle is not bad, or that certain classes actually do better in x situation. Thats fine, but thats not what tier lists are supposed to figure out for you. They're an overall ranking based on data. In a fighting game you would start with a matchup chart, and the person with the highest ranking in advantageous matchups would be at the top. In this case you could have a variety of factors here. DPS vs x amount of bosses, efficiency at killing mobs in x amount of areas, speed and utility. These are tangible things you can rank, and can be tested without subjectivity.

This does not say anything about human gameplay. Because not everyone is going to be super efficient, spawns aren't always pre-set in every gameplay mode, situations are going to arise that are specific to certain party and gear combinations etc. Its just an overall ranking of theoretically provable assets that're better in some classes then others.
Gonna quote this piece as its a pretty good reminder of what was originally going on here. Lets keep it that way shall we?
(Ken taunt OP)

MetalDude
May 3, 2013, 09:54 PM
Yes please. Seriously done with the arbitrary shit.

SquashDemon
May 4, 2013, 12:51 AM
If you mean "even low tier classes can do just fine" then yes, that's true.

If you mean "every class is balanced, there are no tiers" then no, you're wrong.

Can you do all the content with a 1* weapon, no units, no skill tree, no subclass? Sure.

Is any decently geared/specced class as bad as that? No.

Does that mean your runs will be as fast no matter what your party composition is? No.

If everyone in your party is impeccably skilled and geared, is there still room for improvement? Of course.

So in my opinion, this game does need a tier list. Or rather, there is one, whether someone types it out or not.
Actually I didn't mean any of that. Especially not that PVE gameplay is balanced, I know it isn't. That'd be boring as balls. I'm just saying the existance of tier lists only serve to do two things:

*Provide "Elite" gamers with tools to further enhance their e-peen, restrict their way of thinking how they approach the game, (if someone hasn't posted a set/build on it, it's probably shit.) and browbeat others who "aren't playing the game right."

*Create endless excuses for the playerbase exposed to whine about how X is OP and Y is Shit And who's the best and greatest DPS raid machine who never loses and "it's not fair because I wanna be presideeeeent!"

I'm just fine with classes having positives and negatives, I don't really need to assign people to a list of how useful they are based on their playstyle or choice of classes.

It may not be optimal, but I think it's fun, and unless I'm mistaken, that's the purpose of playing a game.

Eh, I've been called a moron over this opinion before though, so clearly, I know nothing.

MetalDude
May 4, 2013, 01:02 AM
Except it's not even common for people to beat down others over how they play. This community is pretty open to different play styles. The idea here is assessing optimal ways to play, but I can't really think of anyone who isn't open to playing however the hell they want. This isn't WoW where having competitive DPS is extremely important.

I don't get all the incessant worrying over elitism shit when this is already a 'lax game. People like playing optimally and so this is a way to learn more about all the classes and how each excels and where others could improve.

GALEFORCE
May 4, 2013, 04:04 AM
Just asking out of curiosity.. The opening poster seems to regard Fo/Te highly. I can see how Fo/Fi could be a powerhouse, but what redeeming qualities does Fo/Te have that make it so good? Is it just the support?

I only ask because I don't have a force myself, but I have teammate forces that are a little discouraged with the class.

jooozek
May 4, 2013, 04:27 AM
techer has the pp restoring skills (pp restorate which gives +2PP per second at max level iirc and pp convert which adds from 1 to 5 PP per second for 30 seconds) and the elemental weak hit which at max level gives 20% damage boost for using the proper element and also territory burst which massively extends zondeel range
meanwhile fo/fi got only damage and knuckle gear which is nice but unless you carebear for TA it is not needed

gigawuts
May 4, 2013, 08:31 AM
FO/TE is very good for bolt techs, and with PP convert 6 or more even helps pure fire builds sustain attacks.

Zondeel becomes very, very effective with wider range and the extra PP lets you cast much more of it. It's an especially potent class combo in mines and desert AQ's.

Z-0
May 4, 2013, 08:46 AM
I kind of don't like PPC3/6 anymore. While it's nice in that it keeps up with you (although PPC6 cannot keep up with fire, it's just a little bit slower), I like to push my PPC to the next tier so that it also increases my PP for when it runs out as well.

gigawuts
May 4, 2013, 08:50 AM
I've always felt that way, too. It's better to have excess when something has worn off.

I just wish wands offered more support utility than they currently do. If Wand Gear benefited TB cooldown (maybe extend it +1 second per enemy hit with the explosion? speed up S&D pulses based on the gear? oh, oh, give wand gear a zalure debuff effect!) it'd really be on to something great, and TE/FO vs. FO/TE would offer something resembling an even tradeoff.

Until then, TE/FO is mediocre tbh, unless you have an umbra stick in which case it's just FO/TE with an above average rod and good sdef.

UnLucky
May 4, 2013, 09:28 AM
Force has no good subclass option.

Why doesn't Fury Stance boost tech damage?

gigawuts
May 4, 2013, 09:57 AM
And subject hunter to even more nerfs because a different class is OP when subbing it?

As opposed to, you know, increasing the baseline damage and decreasing the bonuses so HU (or all melee) weapons stay the same but everything else gets nerfed, and fury stance is less required to compete decently and...oh shit, there I go talking about good design again. Sorry guys, I forgot this is Sega, I don't know what came over me.

Zenobia
May 4, 2013, 10:36 AM
And subject hunter to even more nerfs because a different class is OP when subbing it?

As opposed to, you know, increasing the baseline damage and decreasing the bonuses so HU (or all melee) weapons stay the same but everything else gets nerfed, and fury stance is less required to compete decently and...oh shit, there I go talking about good design again. Sorry guys, I forgot this is Sega, I don't know what came over me.

*Pats*

Sokay Giga sokay we have our moments~<3

Zorafim
May 4, 2013, 02:24 PM
Force has no good subclass option.

I swear by /te. With that, I can cast another Rafoie during my bursts before resting, and every two minutes I can rapid fire nuke without worry.

Shadowth117
May 4, 2013, 02:35 PM
I swear by /te. With that, I can cast another Rafoie during my bursts before resting, and every two minutes I can rapid fire nuke without worry.

Really? Because Photon Blasts do a good job of keeping me going on Fi. Particularly if I wanna use a lightning tree. I could use Zonde or Zondeel and everything would just die. And on a Te sub, there's really no point in having a lightning tree damage-wise for that reason.

Not to mention Force has this lovely problem called "I need x tree to do my best damage in this mission." which is automatically more bothersome than other classes. A Fi or Ra can keep carrying on with Hu sub all day, but if you want to do the best output you can as Fo you're going to be changing between skill trees constantly.

Maybe the next tier of Fo class will go non elemental and somehow solve this issue, but for now its very lame needing a different tree to do my best damage with an element. Say what you want about PSU, but it didn't have the issue of 70-80% of the techniques you have being worthless because of its elemental system. Base, Ra, Dam, Gi, Nos, and even Sa techs could have their uses by the end of the game.

Skyly HUmar
May 4, 2013, 02:49 PM
Really? Because Photon Blasts do a good job of keeping me going on Fi. Particularly if I wanna use a lightning tree. I could use Zonde or Zondeel and everything would just die. And on a Te sub, there's really no point in having a lightning tree damage-wise for that reason.

Not to mention Force has this lovely problem called "I need x tree to do my best damage in this mission." which is automatically more bothersome than other classes. A Fi or Ra can keep carrying on with Hu sub all day, but if you want to do the best output you can as Fo you're going to be changing between skill trees constantly.

Maybe the next tier of Fo class will go non elemental and somehow solve this issue, but for now its very lame needing a different tree to do my best damage with an element. Say what you want about PSU, but it didn't have the issue of 70-80% of the techniques you have being worthless because of its elemental system. Base, Ra, Dam, Gi, Nos, and even Sa techs could have their uses by the end of the game.

Actually i was thinking that. Maybe the new class has a range/mage combo or a melee/mage combo that attacks with S and T with it's normal attacks, I mean, it would have no element, and both attack stats would factor into it's hits. I think thad be a nice combo.

Zyrusticae
May 4, 2013, 05:28 PM
What. There are seriously still players who think element weaknesses matter in this game?

They don't. Only a scant few enemies (all of them bosses) have resistances that actually mean a damn thing. Furthermore, with how horribly unbalanced techs are in this game, it's actually more optimal to just go for whatever gives you the most damage application within each situation, which is ALWAYS the fire tree, without exception. There is simply no getting around the fact that fire's fast charging speed makes it the highest-DPS tree in every situation in the game, especially since the most a weakness will get you is maybe 10% more damage, which only matters in the event that it makes you able to kill your target within one less hit (which is very rare indeed!).

I use dark techniques pretty much exclusively, and I can tell you right now that it's like playing an entirely different class compared to the fire tree. Everything requires time to apply damage to the target(s), meanwhile fire charges quickly and has a crapton of stuff that is basically instant damage plus AoE. Meanwhile, the element weaknesses don't mean shit as I still two-shot everything in every stage with the exception of the big enemies.

Go fire. Never switch unless you want to apply shock to Dark Falz. It's really that simple.

SEGA balance at work, lololololol~

Edit:
Technique Element Tier List
God Tier
Fire
High Tier
Lightning
Wind
Mid Tier
Dark
Light
Shit Tier
Ice

Note that you don't even get a jump from "average" to "low", Ice just goes straight to shit tier because, fuck it, it's horrible in every possible way. Why not throw it a bone, SEGA?

Z-0
May 4, 2013, 05:34 PM
Bolt is more efficient than Fire in many situations.

Weaknesses only matter if you're FO/TE (or vice versa), as that gives you an extra 20% damage which is very significant.

jooozek
May 4, 2013, 05:36 PM
herp derp

right, because techers elemental weak hit 20% bonus doesnt matter all, i mean, its not like its the reason my zonde does 5k to mechs and 3.4k to anything else

gigawuts
May 4, 2013, 05:36 PM
Indeed, I find an even spread between them to be the most desirable.

What Zyru is really saying is element weakness doesn't matter enough to get an ice tree, BTW. A fire and a bolt tree are pretty great, and a general tree is great too (I'd opt for the general tree if you have just one, fire spec with bolt save 10)

BlankM
May 4, 2013, 05:42 PM
Fo/Te with maxed elemental weak hit and mastery tend to disagree with that statement. Dark specifically does really well in Sanctum and is probably the fastest killer of certain dragon bosses.

But I wouldn't say you are wrong either. While Fo could optimize with multiple trees, fire and lightning both have steroid skills that make them very competitive.

The only other tree I would consider is Dark or Wind(For certain bosses). I don't think going ice in caves really does much comparatively.

Also Fo/Fi with lightning or fire is going to help more against even enemies that're weak to your element. Element Weak Hit can't compare to brave stance.