So what the Japanese think of PSO2...

[Z-0]

Despite PSO2's fabled "success" in Japan, it was interesting to actually stumble across a player review site to see what the players really think (found this thanks to a friend):

http://bit.ly/108ustw

Number of Reviews: 409
Average Score: 1.88/5

As you can see, the West isn't the only community dissatisfied with the game. Running through the reviews, the major complaints about the game are that its entirely random, upgrading equipment is horribly unfair and that the game is extremely gacha-centric, considering that the majority of things to assist with gameplay are in the AC Scratch, plus the game seems to be centred around fashion and costumes, instead of what the game should be about: The actual gameplay.

There's also been numerous complaints about the fact that there's no sort of weapon variety, as every weapon is just a model and a skin, and nothing more than that. Drop rates are also a complaint seen in these, along with the fact the game is entirely luck-based.

So what are your thoughts? Considering the success of PSO2, it's surprising to see it rated so low in its home country. The complaints of the Japanese also appear to be similar to ours. I don't think that they're that much different from us, just some people speak louder than others.

[Zyrusticae]

I am actually not surprised about this at all (in fact, this was pointed out a loooong time ago), though what I am surprised about is that SEGA doesn't seem to be doing anything to really respond to these complaints considering how numerous and loud they are. I have a sneaking suspicion they're banking on Episode 2 to fix most of these concerns (aside from the business model-related ones, seeing as how it's obviously working for them so far).

I'm still miffed that Gunner is in as poor a state as it is now, plus everything Fighter that isn't Deadly Archer just feels horribly sub-par. There has to be plenty of players complaining about that shit, just like there was for the weakness of Hunter and the OP-ness of Zonde, right? But SEGA just doesn't seem to care, or their priorities lie elsewhere... I wish I could get a window into their internal development processes, because the whole thing just doesn't sit right with me.

[Psycl0ne]

but isn't that how all past pso games have been? well at least for pso episode 1 and 2 good rares were extremely hard to find so you would have to be very lucky or play for hundreds of hours... I think people are just too pampered now at days and lazy to work for high quality items but meh that's just what I think.

[vPharaohv]

I don't see how anyone could say it's not luck based. There is only so far you can go with leveling before grinding, weapon drops, and shop tickets become necessary to continue to getting stronger (without spending money).

A very unlucky person who played for 1000 hours over maxing levels could still be much weaker than a super lucky person who played 100 hours over maxing maxing level (assuming neither spend real money).

[gigawuts]

but isn't that how all past pso games have been? well at least for pso episode 1 and 2 good rares were extremely hard to find so you would have to be very lucky or play for hundreds of hours... I think people are just too pampered now at days and lazy to work for high quality items but meh that's just what I think.

No, it's not. V1 and V2 had horrifically rare items. PSOGC and PSOBB had much more realistic droprates, and treated rares as a series of goals to improve your character by finding multiples of instead of one final goal by finding one single one, like PSO2 does.

What's the difference? Oh, finding a shitload more rares that let you do more things as you play that are good right out of the box, and giving a more plausible sense of accomplishment for doing so. It's just that PSOGC's model would not have done well in an F2P setting, or so people like to claim (yes it would).

[blace]

Those scores don't surprise. Even with the player surveys, they're not addressing every issue and will continue to do what they do best: relying in AC scratch to reap in profit.

[Kierto]

To add fuel to the fire, Sega Sammy also released their fiscal report (Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/10/sega-sammy-posts-fiscal-net-profit-aliens-colonial-marines-shi/)) for 2013. Apparently the game has over 2.5million users (accounts). While they don't deliver specific numbers regarding ingame sales they do say ingame (AC) purchases have "exceeded forcasted levels".

They really are making bank off the bullshit gacha. Just look at how many pages and pages of AC goods there are on the market. Each item costing at least $2..

Expect 11*s to have desirable laten abilities. Why? Because you need to grind them to +10 3 times over. Get ready to make use of that +7 grind recycle item! Fuck in PSU you could grind an item to 8/10 for about 620Yen. Here what does it cost for +7 (guaranteed)? 4000Yen?

[DFC]

I think one of the stronger points is that you can actually get a shitload of costumes etc, if it didn't have that I wouldn't still be playing because there would be nothing to do other than hunting rare weapons.

[Zyrusticae]

Really, the business model is honestly the very least of my concerns right now. Stronger core gameplay and better game balance are on the top of my list of wants, and for the most part they don't really seem to be doing anything about that. I can only assume that the surveys are informing what they're putting into Episode 2 and hopefully that will include loads of changes across the board, otherwise all my hopes are lost...

[gigawuts]

To add fuel to the fire, Sega Sammy also released their fiscal report (Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/10/sega-sammy-posts-fiscal-net-profit-aliens-colonial-marines-shi/)) for 2013. Apparently the game has over 2.5million users (accounts). While they don't deliver specific numbers regarding ingame sales they do say ingame (AC) purchases have "exceeded forcasted levels".

They really are making bank off the bullshit gacha. Just look at how many pages and pages of AC goods there are on the market. Each item costing at least $2..

Expect 11*s to have desirable laten abilities. Why? Because you need to grind them to +10 3 times over. Get ready to make use of that +7 grind recycle item! Fuck in PSU you could grind an item to 8/10 for about 620Yen. Here what does it cost for +7 (guaranteed)? 4000Yen?

Yeah. It's pretty much going exactly how I said it would...in fucking september. 10*'s untradable, player outcry, sega caves and allows very limited 10* exchanging, sega looks like the good guys for listening to player feedback to remove something that shouldn't have been implemented in the first place, and then sega IMMEDIATELY phases in 11*'s as the only weapons worth a damn for even SLIGHTLY dedicated players because they're the only ones that actually do something unique, rendering everything beneath them utterly and completely worthless for all but cosmetic purposes. And, now that we have camo, I'm waiting for that to be phased out too.


Really, the business model is honestly the very least of my concerns right now. Stronger core gameplay and better game balance are on the top of my list of wants, and for the most part they don't really seem to be doing anything about that. I can only assume that the surveys are informing what they're putting into Episode 2 and hopefully that will include loads of changes across the board, otherwise all my hopes are lost...

Unfortunately, the business model is WHY content is so stagnant and mediocre. They don't NEED to cater to existing players, because the entire premise of F2P is that players are always coming in due to having zero upfront cost.

It's not about player retention, it's about market saturation. Many players can be brought back with surges of content, yes, but that is not the main purpose of the model.

[DFC]

Yeah. It's pretty much going exactly how I said it would...in fucking september. 10*'s untradable, player outcry, sega caves and allows very limited 10* exchanging, sega looks like the good guys for listening to player feedback to remove something that shouldn't have been implemented in the first place, and then sega IMMEDIATELY phases in 11*'s as the only weapons worth a damn for even SLIGHTLY dedicated players because they're the only ones that actually do something unique, rendering everything beneath them utterly and completely worthless for all but cosmetic purposes. And, now that we have camo, I'm waiting for that to be phased out too.



Unfortunately, the business model is WHY content is so stagnant and mediocre. They don't NEED to cater to existing players, because the entire premise of F2P is that players are always coming in due to having zero upfront cost.

It's not about player retention, it's about market saturation. Many players can be brought back with surges of content, yes, but that is not the main purpose of the model.

10* should never have been tradable, back then every single force didn't have an elder rod, it was actually rare.
Now it's standard to see every single player equipped with a 10*

Hopefully they will never make 11* tradable

[Requiem Aeternam]

I'm not as surprised as I thought I would be seeing this topic and reading the complaints. It's more surprising that Sega seem to refuse to do anything about it. It appears that they're just gonna continue focusing on the parts of the game they make money off which is really disappointing.

IMO the game would be so much better if they upped the drop rates considerably, especially from rare enemies, and made grinding work the same as it did in PSO1. The AC Scratch should also contain ONLY new hairstyles, accessories and outfits. I'd personally be really pissed off if I spent money and ended up with a Meseta increase ticket or a Mag food device when I never use them to begin with. Everything else should be in the FUN Scratch so that free players can get them without having to spend all their Meseta on them.

But, in the end, it doesn't matter what I say as Sega won't listen to me. Especially when they appear to be ignoring the majority of the japanese player-base. Not the end of the world anyway as I have plenty of other games I want to play.

EDIT: Something else that kinda pissed me off is when they reduced the prices items are sold to NPC vendors for. I'm not good at TA at all and I don't have premium so this was a huge let-down for me as I have no other way to make money. Anyone remember why they did this?

[Kierto]

It's not about player retention, it's about market saturation. Many players can be brought back with surges of content, yes, but that is not the main purpose of the model.

This is true, but the model does however rely on retention in different ways. TACOs and now XQs are designed on the idea of 'play a little, but return for a long time' so you will login daily and be constantly subject to advertising of new features and paid content. Why do you even think the video screens in the lobby even exist? I know there are plenty of players who just login for their daily fix of TACO, FUN or w/e but I can bet my nuts they all talk about the new update videos and bullshit lobby actions. And how many of those players do you think just do these daily chores so they can buy their cute hairstyle as soon as it becomes available in the bi-weekly gachas before it disappears and triples in price?

Another key factor of 'play a little, but return for a long time' is based on the idea that A) eventually you will succumb and eventually purchase premium goods out of frustration due to chronic lack of success (i.e. = shop pass, scratch, premium ticket) or B) fall victim to feeling you 'must' login every day to keep up (TACOs, XQ, EQ checking) which often leads to 'A' happening.

I think it's only a matter of time until we see either XQ passes purchaseable or they introduce AC missions like PSU had in its later life.

There is a lot of F2P naivety around and so many good resources about its structure. People should read up on simple things like this Gamasutra article (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6552/the_design_of_freetoplay_games_.php?print=1) to get started. (this isn't directed at you giga, just a general thing, lol)

One of PSO2's biggest fails with the F2P system is that they just seem to copy what they think a F2P system 'should be' without actually tailoring it to what the playerbase wants or would use (150AC Scape Dolls?). So we just get more and more fashion because that shit is selling like hell and with the disgusting low-rez textures etc they are pumping out obviously little dev time.

[Psycl0ne]

I don't know about others but I mostly look at the positives that we have now compared to previous PSO games, like jumping around, shops, affixing weapons, f2p, and costumes for the lady's lol.. I believe eventually once they finish adding all the game contents it's gonna have a huge library of weapons and items, the only thing that is bothering me is the need to have passes for the new quests.

[gravityvx]

I lol'd at the fact those reviews won't stop sega from focusing on silly dress up over making a fun balanced game. Everything dies too fast, better make more outfits. Dudu is bullshit, better make more outfits guyz. Rare drop rate is bullshit, better make ugly welfare rares to pretend we care and can go back to focusing on making more outfits! Where's the challenging content, let's promote this tower as challenging. *proceeds to clear 5 floors in 10min* Look! More outfits everyone! ಠ_ಠ

Not sure if sega is circle jerking everyone or just plain procrastinating on what they know they should be doing.

[Psycl0ne]

I lol'd at the fact those reviews won't stop sega from focusing on silly dress up over making a fun balanced game. Everything dies too fast, better make more outfits. Dudu is bullshit, better make more outfits guyz. Rare drop rate is bullshit, better make ugly welfare rares to pretend we care and can go back to focusing on making more outfits! Where's the challenging content, let's promote this tower as challenging. *proceeds to clear 5 floors in 10min* Look! More outfits everyone! ಠ_ಠ

Not sure if sega is circle jerking everyone or just plain procrastinating on what they know they should be doing.

um you say the rare drop rate is bullshit yet you want more challenging content? :-? isn't getting those really good rares a challenge itself? don't forget that those outfits are first bought with AC, you don't need to buy them if you don't like them... everything takes patience you can't expect them to add all the content at once though I agree the game has flaws but what game doesn't.

[Requiem Aeternam]

One of PSO2's biggest fails with the F2P system is that they just seem to copy what they think a F2P system 'should be' without actually tailoring it to what the playerbase wants or would use (150AC Scape Dolls?). So we just get more and more fashion because that shit is selling like hell and with the disgusting low-rez textures etc they are pumping out obviously little dev time.

I still don't see why anyone would pay real money for Scape Dolls when there is still a chance that they'll die again and will have wasted their money. We're better off saving our money for something else like a better, less frustrating game. Even if I found a Lv3 boosted rare boss and died I wouldn't pay money for a minuscule chance at getting a rare that'll soon be out performed by other ones anyway.

[gravityvx]

um you say the rare drop rate is bullshit yet you want more challenging content? :-? isn't getting those really good rares a challenge itself? don't forget that those outfits are first bought with AC, you don't need to buy them if you don't like them... everything takes patience you can't expect them to add all the content at once though I agree the game has flaws but what game doesn't.

Finding the rare you want is part of the fun, but doing so mindlessly 1 shot and 2 shotting everything without them putting up a fight is just not fun or challenging. As for patience...just lol I have yet to find an Ardillo and I've been playing since beta up to now this is when I realized how much bullshit finding this stuff is. Sure the swords weak but I like to get the weapons added to my library so I still look for it.

Anyway, I don't think a 9* weapon should be MIA from inventory that long when actually looking for it(close to a year). I'd go into more detail about what challenge should entail but I'll just summarize it instead, better ai, much higher defense on enemies, less long winded animations making them idle, far less flinch lock, more areas like darker den, I could go on but you get what I'm saying, it's not about the rares at this point.

[Zyrusticae]

EDIT: Something else that kinda pissed me off is when they reduced the prices items are sold to NPC vendors for. I'm not good at TA at all and I don't have premium so this was a huge let-down for me as I have no other way to make money. Anyone remember why they did this?
They had to do this to kill the rampant super-inflation that was happening at the time. The fact that they killed the vendor prices is the only reason you can hang onto a small sum of meseta and still be sure that you can buy things a few months down the line.

If they hadn't killed it, prices would be in the millions for even the cheapest items today, and you'd be forced to play a certain amount of time just to keep up with them. Meseta faucets have to be balanced out with meseta sinks or shit just goes south really, really fast.

Also note that this has an effect on the meseta income of all players, not just free players. Premium players do not automatically have a superior income to free players, since so much of it is dependent on what drops for you or your luck with affixing/grinding.

[jiasu73]

um you say the rare drop rate is bullshit yet you want more challenging content? :-? isn't getting those really good rares a challenge itself? don't forget that those outfits are first bought with AC, you don't need to buy them if you don't like them... everything takes patience you can't expect them to add all the content at once though I agree the game has flaws but what game doesn't.

People want challenges based on mission/quest/game play design, not from the luck based aspects of the game.

[jooozek]

my brain is bleeding when i read some posts here
no wonder pso2 is still a piece of shit
and looks like it has no chance to get out of that poohoo

[gigawuts]

10* should never have been tradable, back then every single force didn't have an elder rod, it was actually rare.
Now it's standard to see every single player equipped with a 10*

Hopefully they will never make 11* tradable

This is a flaw of weapons being skins with damage values, not of weapons being tradable.

I want you to outright state that people should be finding 7+ of one 10* that they don't want so that other people that do want them don't find them. Say that, word for word. Copy and paste it. Because that's what happened when 10*'s weren't tradable. Ask Meji about Elder Rods.

[Psycl0ne]

I understand what your saying though it does feel good to kill enemys with one hit :P makes people feel strong but I suppose you got a point their, I can't wait to see how those extreme quests are going to be the only thing that bothers me is that we have to have passes for them like wtf!

[BlankM]

Though its good to see that JP players agree with us for the most part, it'd be better if that were actually putting pressure on SEGA's profits.

[gigawuts]

This is true, but the model does however rely on retention in different ways. TACOs and now XQs are designed on the idea of 'play a little, but return for a long time' so you will login daily and be constantly subject to advertising of new features and paid content. Why do you even think the video screens in the lobby even exist? I know there are plenty of players who just login for their daily fix of TACO, FUN or w/e but I can bet my nuts they all talk about the new update videos and bullshit lobby actions. And how many of those players do you think just do these daily chores so they can buy their cute hairstyle as soon as it becomes available in the bi-weekly gachas before it disappears and triples in price?

Another key factor of 'play a little, but return for a long time' is based on the idea that A) eventually you will succumb and eventually purchase premium goods out of frustration due to chronic lack of success (i.e. = shop pass, scratch, premium ticket) or B) fall victim to feeling you 'must' login every day to keep up (TACOs, XQ, EQ checking) which often leads to 'A' happening.

I think it's only a matter of time until we see either XQ passes purchaseable or they introduce AC missions like PSU had in its later life.

There is a lot of F2P naivety around and so many good resources about its structure. People should read up on simple things like this Gamasutra article (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6552/the_design_of_freetoplay_games_.php?print=1) to get started. (this isn't directed at you giga, just a general thing, lol)

One of PSO2's biggest fails with the F2P system is that they just seem to copy what they think a F2P system 'should be' without actually tailoring it to what the playerbase wants or would use (150AC Scape Dolls?). So we just get more and more fashion because that shit is selling like hell and with the disgusting low-rez textures etc they are pumping out obviously little dev time.
I understand the theory of getting players to pay money by installing frustrating hurdles they can pay to avoid, but the reality is it wears players' will to play down until they one day feel no need to play whatsoever. The flipside to that? Instead of punishing players at every turn, rewarding them and then letting them buy even more rewards (cosmetic, whatever). That is not only a better short term system for players, but a better long term system as well since a player's will to play is not being intentionally whittled down. Not to mention the publicity gained in giving away things, adding free things, constant bonuses, etc. In PSO2 the bonuses and giveaways are wasted nigh instantly.

But, most of the work of an F2P game is in its creation - the rest is a lifeline of content. There's no changing PSO2 now.

[Link1275]

I understand the theory of getting players to pay money by installing frustrating hurdles they can pay to avoid, but the reality is it wears players' will to play down until they one day feel no need to play whatsoever. The flipside to that? Instead of punishing players at every turn, rewarding them and then letting them buy even more rewards (cosmetic, whatever). That is not only a better short term system for players, but a better long term system as well since a player's will to play is not being intentionally whittled down. Not to mention the publicity gained in giving away things, adding free things, constant bonuses, etc. In PSO2 the bonuses and giveaways are wasted nigh instantly.

But, most of the work of an F2P game is in its creation - the rest is a lifeline of content. There's no changing PSO2 now.
There's still hope for PSO2, if segac sells the title to another company who will change the business model.

[AgemFrostMage]

Despite PSO2's fabled "success" in Japan, it was interesting to actually stumble across a player review site to see what the players really think (found this thanks to a friend):

http://bit.ly/108ustw

Number of Reviews: 409
Average Score: 1.88/5

As you can see, the West isn't the only community dissatisfied with the game. Running through the reviews, the major complaints about the game are that its entirely random, upgrading equipment is horribly unfair and that the game is extremely gacha-centric, considering that the majority of things to assist with gameplay are in the AC Scratch, plus the game seems to be centred around fashion and costumes, instead of what the game should be about: The actual gameplay.

There's also been numerous complaints about the fact that there's no sort of weapon variety, as every weapon is just a model and a skin, and nothing more than that. Drop rates are also a complaint seen in these, along with the fact the game is entirely luck-based.

So what are your thoughts? Considering the success of PSO2, it's surprising to see it rated so low in its home country. The complaints of the Japanese also appear to be similar to ours. I don't think that they're that much different from us, just some people speak louder than others.

You mention gameplay but it comes across as gameplay is given a lot of priority. This game has a smooth and fast interface and can skip dialogue really fast if you want. Other games force you to sit through cutscenes and even make jumps for you! This game you actually move, strategize, and have to actually work for leveling. World of Warcraft has terrible gameplay issues, like questgivers being your level or even much higher, then do the quest yourself! Would Superman send a 5 year old to kill a giant demon? Also long cooldowns, no active dodge, enemies autoface you so no going behind them, go too far and mob goes to full health, mobs "evade" if you strategically position from a vantage point, etc. So PSO2 is superior to WoW in those regards.

Clothes and crossovers are great extras I think more games should have. Think of it this way about rare weapons: if droprates are too good then everyone has the weapon and looks the same. The game does have its issues but nothing is perfect.

[Psycl0ne]

I really don't see PSO2 dying out since I started playing back in October I noticed a huge increase in players.

[gravityvx]

There's still hope for PSO2, if segac sells the title to another company who will change the business model.

Deep down I wish they would hand it to nexon, so I could see everyones reaction when it happens. Kodak moment.

[MetalDude]

I wouldn't really compare WoW and PSO2 in those regards at all. They're not meant to be similar period. Positioning is not the most important part of WoW and combat engagement boils down to "Kill them before they kill you". It's not remotely the same.

[Gardios]

Months ago when I somehow stumbled over player reviews on 4gamer.net (I think?) I saw the same. Lack of deep content, enemy AI, RNG, Dudu upgrading, but also interface (?), lack of minigames etc...

I'm still hoping that SEGA gets its shit together, but it appears that I'm just deluding myself, sadly enough.

Personally, I think the business model is fine (even though I despise RNG) compared to almost everything else.

[Cyclon]

I have to admit, I have yet to see another game able to maintain such a strong love/hate relationship with its playerbase.
I also must confess that I thought the opinion the japanese had of this game had improved since the apparition of subclasses. I'm surprised to see that this isn't the case.

[AgemFrostMage]

I wouldn't really compare WoW and PSO2 in those regards at all. They're not meant to be similar period. Positioning is not the most important part of WoW and combat engagement boils down to "Kill them before they kill you". It's not remotely the same.

WoW looks like it's stuck between trying to be an RPG and action game, but it doesn't work. PSO2 works, Wonderland Online works (a real online RPG but a very expensive free to play, pay to be a pro game), and some people say WoW works, and it was fun sometimes, but top equipment is something you are pressured to have instead of being an optional extra you can choose working for.

[TaigaUC]

Yeah, I've mentioned the 4gamer reviews often.
http://www.4gamer.net/games/120/G012075/index_userreview.html

The general impression I get from what I've seen here and there is, people are not happy with the game, but there isn't any decent competition, so they just sit in PSO2.
Most people complain about the exact same issues, which shows that SEGA is not addressing what is truly important.


Stronger core gameplay and better game balance are on the top of my list of wants, and for the most part they don't really seem to be doing anything about that.

That's what I've been saying.

As a person who has studied and is constantly striving to improve upon game design theory, I feel that PSO2 takes many routes that I consider absolutely wrong. For example, many abilities have virtually no purpose. Skill trees are so horribly imbalanced and designed in such a way that there is little point in experimenting with other tree options (this is not an issue in other games with the same kind of tree system). The upgrade system constantly sends people far backwards as an uncontrollable random punishment for their hard-earned work. The list goes on and on.

Some may argue that, "these problems are the essence of the Phantasy Star series and have always been there", or "I've seen worse", but that doesn't mean that they are fine or acceptable, or that they can't be improved upon. Look at things in the big picture instead of trying to compare them within smaller contexts.

It's all good and fine if you want to believe everything's good to preserve your personal happiness and enjoy the game as is, but there are some of us who have higher standards and would like to see it become better. We are not trampling on your personal opinion or seeking to cause conflict. Our complaints aren't preventing anyone from enjoying the game.

The fact is, only complaints can bring issues to attention, and hopefully lead to improvements. If humans always stayed content with what they have, we would not have any of the technology around us today. As such, I see no logical reason for people to dispute complaints aimed at improving this game, as it is ultimately benefical for all parties involved if SEGA takes valid complaints into consideration and makes appropriate adjustments.

[Gardios]

I have to admit, I have yet to see another game able to maintain such a strong love/hate relationship with its playerbase.
I also must confess that I thought the opinion the japanese had of this game had improved since the apparition of subclasses. I'm surprised to see that this isn't the case.

Subclasses just exposed the flaws of the class design even more. :(

[MetalDude]

WoW looks like it's stuck between trying to be an RPG and action game, but it doesn't work. PSO2 works, Wonderland Online works (a real online RPG but a very expensive free to play, pay to be a pro game), and some people say WoW works, and it was fun sometimes, but top equipment is something you are pressured to have instead of being an optional extra you can choose working for.
In regards to equipment, I agree. Setting up raiding is also a pain in the ass and community has a much more dramatic impact on what you can and can't do and what shit gets fucked up. My point was that the things you listed are flaws are simply fundamentals to how engagements work in WoW and would never work in PSO2 anyways. If it comes down to preferences, I don't care for WoW's combat anymore.

[XbikXBd]

Subclasses just exposed the flaws of the class design even more. :(

I agree they need to add some verity to the classes like PSU had. but in a sense you can't do it like psu but maybe with the addition of the new weapon classes we could have a class that uses MG and double sabers and compound bow, etc. would be nice thats all i want from the game so far im ok with the whole unfair RNG cuz as someone siad earlier it gives me a sense of i need to play the ExQ and get them 11*'s etc so maybe we could also add a AC mission that has increased droprate and new weps. and also a daily mission for low levels that gives EXP and Good weps for new people.
(like in JP PSU did late game)

[Cyclon]

The fact is, only complaints can bring issues to attention, and hopefully lead to improvements. If humans always stayed content with what they have, we would not have any of the technology around us today. As such, I see no logical reason for people to dispute complaints aimed at improving this game, as it is ultimately benefical for all parties involved if SEGA takes valid complaints into consideration and makes appropriate adjustments.
This is the past now, but what you guys tended to not take into consideration was how you were completely filling the forum with complaints, preventing people to have any kind of positive/mindless discussion whatsoever, in the very place they should be coming to get that. The results were that Sega didn't read(or care), and the forum sucked.

Subclasses just exposed the flaws of the class design even more. :(
I'm referring to subclass as the big update that provided everyone with lots of things to do. Beforehand, you ran very fast into a shortage of things to do. But from that point on this was an issue no longer for quite some time. Actually some would say until right now, but I wouldn't go that far myself.

[EvilMag]

This recent player survey proves that Sega really doesn't listen to their audience.

[ShinMaruku]

After seeing all these I wonder why you guys pay them when it's not helping you...

[D-Inferno]

This recent player survey proves that Sega really doesn't listen to their audience.
Well, maybe to their waifu-obsessed ones at least.

Sometimes I wonder if PSO2 US is taking a while to come simply because SoA isn't happy with the game's total content atm.

[Psycl0ne]

hmm this is a recent review from Famitsu on PSO2 http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/19/4122556/japan-review-check-pso2-ps-vita-muramasa so I guess not everyone looks at the game in a bad way, I for one love it as well... every now and then I hear people complain yet they continue to play it a lot, doesn't make much sense.

[gigawuts]

hmm this is a recent review from Famitsu on PSO2 http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/19/4122556/japan-review-check-pso2-ps-vita-muramasa so I guess not everyone looks at the game in a bad way, I for one love it as well... every now and then I hear people complain yet they continue to play it a lot, doesn't make much sense.

And lots of people complain then do quit.

I'm not getting your point.

[Psycl0ne]

And lots of people complain then do quit.

I'm not getting your point.

Did you quit? most of the people I talk to are still in the game, what I am saying is that the game is not as bad as people make it out to be.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

Do those people actually play the game

Or do they just like
Time Attacks
Lobby Chat
Room Idle

PSO2 has something about it that makes it hard for some people to quit, but it's not because of the game, but the people they hang with.

[gigawuts]

um you say the rare drop rate is bullshit yet you want more challenging content? :-? isn't getting those really good rares a challenge itself? don't forget that those outfits are first bought with AC, you don't need to buy them if you don't like them... everything takes patience you can't expect them to add all the content at once though I agree the game has flaws but what game doesn't.

Doing one easy thing a million times is not a challenge, it is a laundry list.

[Quatre52]

Meh, I've never put anything behind review scores.

The game has been great so far, a lot of updates compared to past games, fun game play with many options with classes/characters.

The only complaint I'd have is wanting more weapon variety.

[Psycl0ne]

Do those people actually play the game

Or do they just like
Time Attacks
Lobby Chat
Room Idle

PSO2 has something about it that makes it hard for some people to quit, but it's not because of the game, but the people they hang with.

some do idle in the lobby but most do AQ's most of the time

[Psycl0ne]

Meh, I've never put anything behind review scores.

The game has been great so far, a lot of updates compared to past games, fun game play with many options with classes/characters.

The only complaint I'd have is wanting more weapon variety.

I feel the same as you, it just needs much more weapon variety

[BlankM]

I honestly can't believe the game is made by the same team as previous Phantasy Star games. Just about everything besides combat and graphics were totally downgraded.

That said I find the game wholly incomplete. Right now we're waiting on the verdict. SEGA is either painfully good at stalling us with despair, while secretly having a cohesive plan to fix most of the game's GLARING(Like how-could-anyone-not-see-a-problem-with-this) problems. Or they are just too busy raking in the cash to care about making a better product.

[RadiantLegend]

After seeing all these I wonder why you guys pay them when it's not helping you...

Segac won't get a penny until they fix this game but that won't happen. It's not like they care for a non-waifu sim lover.

[UnLucky]

um you say the rare drop rate is bullshit yet you want more challenging content? :-? isn't getting those really good rares a challenge itself?
LMAO!

[Sp-24]

I feel the same as you, it just needs much more weapon variety

The thing is, adding weapon variety (be it just new weapon types, or giving existing weapons features that make them stand or from the rest in some way) requires actual work. Work costs money, and seeing how Sega doesn't like to throw cash around too much, that money is better invested into female clothes for a new AC scratch, since those are guaranteed to bring you more money in return.

Of course, if enough people keep asking for weapon variety in player surveys, they will eventually add some unique features to your weapons. But expect them to work the same as grinding and hidden abilities. Or even worse than that, since I'm sure that people asking for new features will also ask Sega to make grinding and affixing less unforgiving and frustrating. That way, everyone is happy - players get something they want AND they make Sega remove an obstacle that Sega itself put there in the first place. Never mind that the new feature that you wanted so much is also a new obstacle.

[Kierto]

Or they are just too busy raking in the cash to care about making a better product.

Dingdingding

[Zyrusticae]

Meh, I've never put anything behind review scores.

The game has been great so far, a lot of updates compared to past games, fun game play with many options with classes/characters.

The only complaint I'd have is wanting more weapon variety.
I enjoy it too, but I just want some more exciting game modes (like something that's actually difficult for once) and for them to fix the MANY glaring balance issues still in the game. Oh, and my Laia Repca plzkthx.

It does rather bother me when I see people decrying it as the WORST. GAME. EVER!, as I really feel it's pretty fucking far from that state of travesty. It's got loads of issues, but some of the emotional responses to these issues just seem waaay over the line at times (see, for example, RemiusTA's posts, especially on bumped.org). It is, indeed, possible to criticize things without sounding like a massive douchebag and insulting everyone who actually likes the game in the process.

Still, the mystery remains - why put out all these surveys if you're not actually going to use the feedback from them? They must be doing something with them, but what? Is it all waiting for Episode 2? Gawd, all this wondering is making the wait for solid information rather painful...

[Cyron Tanryoku]

I wish to murder my fellow arks in a pvp

hint hint sega

clones suck

[Psycl0ne]

The thing is, adding weapon variety (be it just new weapon types, or giving existing weapons features that make them stand or from the rest in some way) requires actual work. Work costs money, and seeing how Sega doesn't like to throw cash around too much, that money is better invested into female clothes for a new AC scratch, since those are guaranteed to bring you more money in return.

Of course, if enough people keep asking for weapon variety in player surveys, they will eventually add some unique features to your weapons. But expect them to work the same as grinding and hidden abilities. Or even worse than that, since I'm sure that people asking for new features will also ask Sega to make grinding and affixing less unforgiving and frustrating. That way, everyone is happy - players get something they want AND they make Sega remove an obstacle that Sega itself put there in the first place. Never mind that the new feature that you wanted so much is also a new obstacle.

yeah the weapon classes might stay the same the only thing that would make a huge difference is if they add more PA's but it seems they are adding a lot of new rare weapons if you look at the small icons in this post http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207343

[MetalDude]

Weapon variety is really not going to do anything if PA/Technique viability is absolute trash like it is right now. PSO2 has a huge number of core problems that won't get fixed through surface changes and additions (like how new areas won't change anything).

[Zyrusticae]

Weapon variety is really not going to do anything if PA/Technique viability is absolute trash like it is right now. PSO2 has a huge number of core problems that won't get fixed through surface changes and additions (like how new areas won't change anything).
Yeah, they really need to buckle down and fix all these issues with already-existing content before even thinking of throwing in more stuff.

It's a complete waste if only 10% of the PAs and techniques are actually used while everything else is entirely neglected. All those art and animation resources, wasted on stuff that nobody ever bothers with. If I were in the art department at SEGA, I'd be pretty fucking pissed (although, knowing Japanese corporate structures, I imagine it would be pretty impotent rage, at that).

I wonder how Sakai feels about these review scores...

[MetalDude]

I had been wanting to write out how I'd fix every Weapon/PA/Tech just for fun. It just seems like there's so many simple fixes.

[Arialle]

i dont see whats all the big hoo haa about this...i know pso2 has its flaws...yes dudu is a bitch...i hated some of the map designs and how shitty the darkers are compared to pso1

but as well pso2 has things that most MMORPGs don't
1) social and multiplayer plays...alpt of interactions between players in lobby..room system and eben mostly party which makes it more fun. I quit mmos within a week mostly when i figure i can solo the entire game other than world bosses....like BnS, RO2, DN...no one really interacts and chill and ppl only bothers u when ur a suitable need for raids

2) the combat system is definity better back then...we didnt even have jumps in pso1...and this isnt the shitty oh i click on a mob i just keep spamming my skills hotkey numbers like in WOW and wait for the monster to die...*repeat*

3) good music soundtracks that most games dont even bother to put effort in...the difference in music in RO2 and RO1 says it all...

well these are some but i aint gonna state every single one...

and yes i know this game has its bad points like dudu being a faggot...actual content isnt as much yet...shits like trading needs to be premium

i aint gonna complain about drop rares...cause im like u feggits shld just farm TACOs for money and get AQ weapons cause they are already nearly as good as the most powerful weapons...there are lotsa alternatives

as compared to all the shitty click and move grinding games and games that only cares about graphics...i honestly feel pso2 is the kind.of games we need these days...no MMO has satisfied me since Fantasy earth zero but it had to haf a shitty host thus it closed down and i cant get into the jp svr

[Sp-24]

Weapon variety is really not going to do anything if PA/Technique viability is absolute trash like it is right now. PSO2 has a huge number of core problems that won't get fixed through surface changes and additions (like how new areas won't change anything).
Funny thing is, new areas actually did change weapon balance somewhat. Wider areas starting with Sky Land made launchers slightly less broken, as it made covering an entire spawn of enemies with splash damage harder.

But yeah, as it stands now, every class has one PA (or just weapon) that is a must-have, must-use in all situations.

Don't expect them to seriously address weapon balance unless there's a massive outcry, though. And since I judge people by myself, I say there's no outcry at all - I cared about suggesting red eyeliner so much that I actually forgot to put anything at all into the "game balance" field in the questionnaire.

[Alucadra]

I don't know about others but I mostly look at the positives that we have now compared to previous PSO games, like jumping around, shops, affixing weapons, f2p, and costumes for the lady's lol.. I believe eventually once they finish adding all the game contents it's gonna have a huge library of weapons and items, the only thing that is bothering me is the need to have passes for the new quests.

Looking at PSOBB I would almost say in terms of content we took a major downgrade. As many have already pointed out there aren't anywhere near the amount of unique rare items in PSO2 then there were in previous games not to mention how hard it is to obtain these items now. Phantasy Star to me was a social MMORPG where I could party with friends, go on all nighters doing missions throughout the night with friends, finding rares, getting friends gear and selling or trading off the extra stuff for other items. Events come at a close second offering unique items into the market for collectors and really neat themed weapons or costumes. These are what kept me playing Phantasy Star games since dreamcast. The added benefit of extensive character customization, better graphics and an upgrade to PSU's combat system are nice but they're just fluff. The core gameplay still seems to be lacking. I'll admit I only played for a few months of JP so I don't know what's been going on but from the posts in this thread it seems the game hasn't been addressing these issues at all. I pray for the sake of my own sanity that these issues are addressed before western release of PSO2.

[BlankM]

I will be honest, as horribly unbalanced PVP would probably be, it'd be the best thing for them to add to the game so far.

Honestly you see all these discussions, people REALLY take getting better at this game seriously regardless of how random it can be. Yet what you can actually do with this gear and power you accumulate is so very slim. AQs are essentially just higher-leveled farm fests for people who have done everything else.

PvP would spark some crazy life into people I think. Frustrating? Probably, but worth it.

It goes without saying that I hope EQ's bring challenging content to the game, but I'm not holding my breath. The fact you can only get a pass once a day just makes me feel like its another way to farm those stonez and rares. It might be difficult for like a few days, but after you've familiarized yourself with it and you're reduced to grinding it every day it will be just like everything else.

[Psycl0ne]

Looking at PSOBB I would almost say in terms of content we took a major downgrade. As many have already pointed out there aren't anywhere near the amount of unique rare items in PSO2 then there were in previous games not to mention how hard it is to obtain these items now. Phantasy Star to me was a social MMORPG where I could party with friends, go on all nighters doing missions throughout the night with friends, finding rares, getting friends gear and selling or trading off the extra stuff for other items. Events come at a close second offering unique items into the market for collectors and really neat themed weapons or costumes. These are what kept me playing Phantasy Star games since dreamcast. The added benefit of extensive character customization, better graphics and an upgrade to PSU's combat system are nice but they're just fluff. The core gameplay still seems to be lacking. I'll admit I only played for a few months of JP so I don't know what's been going on but from the posts in this thread it seems the game hasn't been addressing these issues at all. I pray for the sake of my own sanity that these issues are addressed before western release of PSO2.

True it doesn't have as much content but that's only because they are still adding to the game I bet once they finish adding all the content and episodes, the game will have an even bigger library of contents then any other PSO game.

[Sp-24]

Are you kidding?

1) social and multiplayer plays...alpt of interactions between players in lobby..room system and eben mostly party which makes it more fun. I quit mmos within a week mostly when i figure i can solo the entire game other than world bosses....like BnS, RO2, DN...no one really interacts and chill and ppl only bothers u when ur a suitable need for raidsGood people isn't even the game's responsibility. I can tell you with 100% certainty that it wasn't Sega who put those people you had fun with into PSO2. Also, RO2 is so bad that even PSO2 will seem good in comparison.


2) the combat system is definity better back then...we didnt even have jumps in pso1...and this isnt the shitty oh i click on a mob i just keep spamming my skills hotkey numbers like in WOW and wait for the monster to die...*repeat*Plenty of games have that now. Tera is another real-time-combat waifu sim that some say is better or worse than PSO2, but I'm fairly sure they all the same. DWO existed for years, and if it wasn't for KoeiTecmo being cheapskates and Aeria being so good at ruining games, it could have taken the PSO2 niche years before Sega even made their game.


3) good music soundtracks that most games dont even bother to put effort in...the difference in music in RO2 and RO1 says it all...Opinion, definitely. I hate PSO2's bland music enough to actually ask for at least something good in this survey.


as compared to all the shitty click and move grinding games and games that only cares about graphics...i honestly feel pso2 is the kind.of games we need these daysThis isn't 2000 anymore. PSO isn't the only online action game in the world. There is, at the very least, 3 other games that do exactly the same thing PSO2 does, and if two of them weren't in Aeria's hands, I'd say Sega has an actual problem.


True it doesn't have as much content but that's only because they are still adding to the game I bet once they finish adding all the content and episodes, the game will have an even bigger library of contents then any other PSO game.

It's been almost a year. Even not counting the closed and open betas/alphas, this game has been out for a year, and it's still incomplete. And you are expected to pay money for it.

[jiasu73]

Does anyone know if they will ever implement PSU type events into this game? Something like MAG, Dengeki,Fire break etc... really miss those

[Cyclon]

Don't expect them to seriously address weapon balance unless there's a massive outcry, though. And since I judge people by myself, I say there's no outcry at all .
Since we went from november, where most people didn't give a shit about balance, to right now were it's become the #1 issue this game has, I'm fairly positive this "outcry" will happen at some point. Will it change anything is another problem entirely.


but from the posts in this thread it seems the game hasn't been addressing these issues at all.
It really depends on what issues you are speaking of really. Because either they weren't fixed, or they didn't exist in the first place.

[Psycl0ne]

Are you kidding?
Good people isn't even the game's responsibility. I can tell you with 100% certainty that it wasn't Sega who put those people you had fun with into PSO2. Also, RO2 is so bad that even PSO2 will seem good in comparison.

Plenty of games have that now. Tera is another real-time-combat waifu sim that some say is better or worse than PSO2, but I'm fairly sure they all the same. DWO existed for years, and if it wasn't for KoeiTecmo being cheapskates and Aeria being so good at ruining games, it could have taken the PSO2 niche years before Sega even made their game.

Opinion, definitely. I hate PSO2's bland music enough to actually ask for at least something good in this survey.

This isn't 2000 anymore. PSO isn't the only online action game in the world. There is, at the very least, 3 other games that do exactly the same thing PSO2 does, and if two of them weren't in Aeria's hands, I'd say Sega has an actual problem.

What games would you recommend that are better than PSO2 as an action RPG type, since it's the only game I play for the PC besides SOF2

[BIG OLAF]

Does anyone know if they will ever implement PSU type events into this game? Something like MAG, Dengeki,Fire break etc... really miss those

I'd like to know the same thing. Those events were so much fun. Off-the-wall challenge missions, boosted EXP out the tush, and event-specific trade missions with exclusive items.

It's been almost a year now, and still not a one in PSO2. PSU had about three by the first year anniversary, at least.

[EvilMag]

They'll finally do it but the quests will be EQs.

I'm seriously gonna rage if that's the case.

[UnLucky]

PvP would just be absurd unavoidable damage from Ra/Hu or Fo/Fi, or unavoidable endless disables from Gunner or Force

If a melee can successfully be invulnerable for their entire approach, or the ranged class screws up their infinite flinch/stun/juggle, then maybe it will be fun to watch...

[Agitated_AT]

and the plot thickens

quite surprised, in a good way. fix the game sakai & co!

edit: ya know, about pvp. Me and a friend started playin around the other day, shooting at each other in tps mode. It made me realize that perhaps pvp doesnt really have to be true to the whole game. A tps pvp mode could be really awesome as well!!

It would be a start

[Cyclon]

Tera is another real-time-combat waifu sim that some say is better or worse than PSO2, but I'm fairly sure they all the same.
Except they aren't. Seriously, these kind of comparisons make me wonder if we even play the same game. MMORPGs aren't WOW type/everything else.


If a melee can successfully be invulnerable for their entire approach.
Ragin' waltz. Also you're almost at 2013 posts.

[Sp-24]

What games would you recommend that are better than PSO2 as an action RPG type, since it's the only game I play for the PC besides SOF2
- Tera - pretty much the same thing in a fantasy setting. and yes, I'm exaggerating about their similarities, calm you shit
- Dynasty Warriors Online - an almost identical, but way older and somehow even more grindy game. Has PvP, by the way. And I'm not suggesting it, just saying that it's there. Stay away from Aeria version and try the japanese game if you really want to play it for some reason.
- Wildstar and a million of other slightly more action oriented WoW clones.
- That one sci-fi online mission-based action game that looks somewhat like Mass Effect and is currently in open beta and the name of which I don't remember, but my friend downloaded it yesterday, you know, that one.
- S4 League - fast-paced PSO2 with PvP and without PvE.

I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of anything else right now.


Except they aren't. Seriously, these kind of comparisons make me wonder if we even play the same game. MMORPGs aren't WOW type/everything else.

Games don't have to be identical to be comparable, you know? I mean, maybe you haven't noticed, but people get away with comparing PSO2 to PSO, PSU and PSP2I all the time.

[Walkure]

There are actually a lot of positive changes made since I started playing in January:
Cost of Grinding was brought down significantly by a chain of nerfs
Seriously, anyone remember pre-nerf Dudu? I remember grinders being 12k+ a pop, and a friend who did grinding at that time told about how you needed 3 of them per grind attempt.

Gimme the old prices on every support item on grinding and I can tell you how much the cost of upgrading has gone down.
Costs of affixing went down due to AQ drops and similar changes
AQs drop high-level abilities like candy now. I'm continually surprised by the fancy weapons perfect for affixing going for bargain prices on player shops.
Can't FIND a 10*? Go FARM a 10* with AQs
While not totally viable for every weapon yet (double sabers and wired lances nyeehh), instead of dealing with the drops you can farm a pyroxene version. And since, as everyone knows and admits, drop rates for 10* boss weapons are spectacular bullshit to the point where getting your pyroxene upgraded to 50 element will probably be faster and more powerful than simply finding the best boss weapon in the game.
There was at least an attempt to solve grievous issues with class balances in recent patches


It's not to say that the game's perfect now, or that they're listening to everything, but it certainly seems like they are listening on the big stuff.

[BlankM]

They'll finally do it but the quests will be EQs.

I'm seriously gonna rage if that's the case.

I feel like thats what they've been doing pretty much. Instead of real event quests, they just change the lobby and add a new EQ for 12 multi-parties to demolish. Its their "event."


PvP would just be absurd unavoidable damage from Ra/Hu or Fo/Fi, or unavoidable endless disables from Gunner or Force

If a melee can successfully be invulnerable for their entire approach, or the ranged class screws up their infinite flinch/stun/juggle, then maybe it will be fun to watch...

If clones were any sign of how PvP would go then yeah, it would be awful. But even if it was marginally playable I think it'd give a lot more value.

Though as I was discussing with you earlier, a competitive "Tower" would be my idea of a fun time. Example competing in EC's done, or time finished, or sending enemies or debuffs to the other party in an attempt at getting more out of the tower then them.

[Xaeris]

Well, it's that time of the week. I guess lending words to my thoughts on the subject will kill a little time.

I don't put much stock into review scores, whether they're from professional reviewers or just other gamers. For an example of why, take a moment to recall what happened to Mass Effect 3's Amazon score after its release. People weren't rating that game a 1 because they honestly assessed it as a 1; they were rating it a 1 to send a message about their (legitimate) grievances with the ending. I consider the number of a review to be fairly worthless in nearly all cases, and draw the actual verbal content instead. So, seeing the 1.88 rating in the OP's link, or the 33/40 on Famitsu both make me go, "eh."

Of course, there's no reason to give a damn about reviews at all when I've logged my own experience with the game. For the most part, I'm having a great time, though I do have issues that I always voice when survey time rolls around. Naturally, I don't mind when other people have their own issues they give voice to, but, there are two recurring points in this thread I would like to say a few words on.

Number one, the matter of PSO2 being fashion oriented. I could understand this complaint if the game were focusing fashion to the exclusion of everything else...but I don't think it is. Do we get more costume and accessory updates than anything else? Sure, but that's because costumes and accessories are easy for the development team, especially when they're copypasting half of them (an exaggeration, but not by much) from other games. I feel like people are comparing fashion updates 1:1 with gameplay updates without considering that making costumes and accessories takes a fraction of the effort that goes into making a new field, especially one as well done as Sanctum.

Number two, the matter of PSO2's F2P model. I'm going to come right out and say it: I think PSO2's F2P model is good. Not even "well, in comparison to Nexon..." good, but actually good. Before I elaborate, let me say that I'd so much rather this be a P2P game, but anyone that's been paying attention knows that the era of P2P RPGs has its foot in the grave and is just waiting for WoW to keel over before it jumps in. In light of that, I think PSO2 goes about the F2P thing rather well.

The basis of why I believe it's a good model is in the fact that all of the AC scratch items are disseminated to the free playing population, i.e, no AC scratch item is exclusive to the paying population. This is key, since barring exclusivity is a prime way to avoid creating a schism between the free and paying populations that eventually lead to the game being called P2W. Ideally, I'd like to see the the other AC items (premium, salon, shop, etc) become tradeable so they could find a market value (I do wonder how much a 30 day shop ticket would end up selling for; it's literally spending money to make money) and make everything potentially available to the free population, but the way it is now doesn't fall terribly short of that ideal.

Tied into that, I see a lot of criticism of the scratch tickets. I totally understand that. I don't like lotteries and I don't play them, in PSO2 or otherwise. Even though I could afford to play scratch, I much prefer to buy what I want off the market with meseta. On a personal level, I would much prefer to buy a vanity item I'm interested in outright and call it a day. But on a macro level, being able to do that would interfere with the dynamic above. If the scratch players could simply buy what they want for themselves, how many of them would cap their spending that, especially considering the AC costs would undoubtedly be raised (e.g, bikini costs 2k AC) to compensate? there'd be considerably less supply on the market for the free/non scratch playing payers to buy.

So in that sense, I think the scratch is a necessary evil. The evil could be managed better, for sure though. Like, buy x amount of scratches and you get a token that can be redeemed for any item in the scratch.

[gigawuts]

Yeah...they're all still bad though. Which suggests they knew they'd have to cave to player outcry, so they set everything worse so after "fixing" things, they'd be exactly where they wanted them.

It's not even a genius plan either, it's a common expression. "It's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission." Sega implemented a shit system, apologized, and "fixed" it, instead of doing what players actually wanted (i.e. something where my shit doesn't get worse and leave me broke).

[Psycl0ne]

- Tera - pretty much the same thing in a fantasy setting. and yes, I'm exaggerating about their similarities, calm you shit
- Dynasty Warriors Online - an almost identical, but way older and somehow even more grindy game. Has PvP, by the way. And I'm not suggesting it, just saying that it's there. Stay away from Aeria version and try the japanese game if you really want to play it for some reason.
- Wildstar and a million of other slightly more action oriented WoW clones.
- That one sci-fi online mission-based action game that looks somewhat like Mass Effect and is currently in open beta and the name of which I don't remember, but my friend downloaded it yesterday, you know, that one.
- S4 League - fast-paced PSO2 with PvP and without PvE.

I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of anything else right now.



Games don't have to be identical to be comparable, you know? I mean, maybe you haven't noticed, but people get away with comparing PSO2 to PSO, PSU and PSP2I all the time.

Ill check those out if they are f2p, thanks.

[Cyclon]

and yes, I'm exaggerating about their similarities, calm you shit
Sorry, didn't mean to sound aggressive. It just so happens that you're not the first one to bring up something like that.

Games don't have to be identical to be comparable, you know? I mean, maybe you haven't noticed, but people get away with comparing PSO2 to PSO, PSU and PSP2I all the time.
No they don't. Or that's when I'm sleeping.
Comparing is fine. Saying they're "the same", eeeeh... a little less. Then again, there's the possibility that maybe it's just me.

Edit:
Ill check those out if they are f2p, thanks.
Okay now that's just too much coincidence for one thread. Whatever, have fun.

[Arialle]

all in all the best way to rate a game is to play it yourself...everyone rates it in different opinion

ppl can rate the original FF13 as 10/10 but to me its complete trash after i played it...i said original cause i loved type 0

just cause someone or a grp rates it 1/10 doesnt mean its necessary bad...like someone said in here...it could just be jealous fanboys

[Sp-24]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound aggressive. It just so happens that you're not the first one to bring up something like that.

No they don't. Or that's when I'm sleeping.
Comparing is fine. Saying they're "the same", eeeeh... a little less. Then again, there's the possibility that maybe it's just me.
Okay, sorry, I'll be more careful with terminology. Video games are serious business. :p

[Zyrusticae]

Ill check those out if they are f2p, thanks.
"That one sci-fi online mission-based action game" happens to be Warframe, by the way. It's a pretty sweet third-person shooter with excellent movement abilities (wall running, wall jumping, somersaulting, sliding, ledge climbing, sprinting, rolling - yeah, it pretty much has everything). Unfortunately, just like PSO2, it has some pretty aggravating reliance on RNG for many things (including drops like shield and health boosts that are essential to advancing in the game), but fortunately the balance issues aren't anywhere near as stark. Also, no character creation or dress-up whatsoever. Warframes are basically characters, and all you get to do is change their colors.

So in other words - play Warframe for the game, play PSO2 for the dress-up. ;)

[MetalDude]

it could just be jealous fanboys
Jealous of what? I feel like people say this as a way to invalidate opinions like the use of "haters".

[Zipzo]

You realize that one website can be biased right? Do you put all your faith in to IGN scores/user reviews to help you decide on purchasing a game? This isn't really indicative of anything except the majority opinion exclusive to this website seems to dislike the game (for all the obvious reasons we already know). Just because someone is japanese doesn't mean they don't notice the same things you do.

PSO2 was awarded the 2012 Rookie of the year (a lot of games came out in 2012 mind you) Webmoney award which is tallied by votes. Should I take that and run with it saying PSO2 is the greatest game ever to have released in 2012? I won't, because its also just one website. It's biased.

Just because it's a Japanese website, makes no inherent difference to this logic.

[BlankM]

Well, it's that time of the week. I guess lending words to my thoughts on the subject will kill a little time.

I don't put much stock into review scores, whether they're from professional reviewers or just other gamers. For an example of why, take a moment to recall what happened to Mass Effect 3's Amazon score after its release. People weren't rating that game a 1 because they honestly assessed it as a 1; they were rating it a 1 to send a message about their (legitimate) grievances with the ending. I consider the number of a review to be fairly worthless in nearly all cases, and draw the actual verbal content instead. So, seeing the 1.88 rating in the OP's link, or the 33/40 on Famitsu both make me go, "eh."

Of course, there's no reason to give a damn about reviews at all when I've logged my own experience with the game. For the most part, I'm having a great time, though I do have issues that I always voice when survey time rolls around. Naturally, I don't mind when other people have their own issues they give voice to, but, there are two recurring points in this thread I would like to say a few words on.

Number one, the matter of PSO2 being fashion oriented. I could understand this complaint if the game were focusing fashion to the exclusion of everything else...but I don't think it is. Do we get more costume and accessory updates than anything else? Sure, but that's because costumes and accessories are easy for the development team, especially when they're copypasting half of them (an exaggeration, but not by much) from other games. I feel like people are comparing fashion updates 1:1 with gameplay updates without considering that making costumes and accessories takes a fraction of the effort that goes into making a new field, especially one as well done as Sanctum.

Number two, the matter of PSO2's F2P model. I'm going to come right out and say it: I think PSO2's F2P model is good. Not even "well, in comparison to Nexon..." good, but actually good. Before I elaborate, let me say that I'd so much rather this be a P2P game, but anyone that's been paying attention knows that the era of P2P RPGs has its foot in the grave and is just waiting for WoW to keel over before it jumps in. In light of that, I think PSO2 goes about the F2P thing rather well.

The basis of why I believe it's a good model is in the fact that all of the AC scratch items are disseminated to the free playing population, i.e, no AC scratch item is exclusive to the paying population. This is key, since barring exclusivity is a prime way to avoid creating a schism between the free and paying populations that eventually lead to the game being called P2W. Ideally, I'd like to see the the other AC items (premium, salon, shop, etc) become tradeable so they could find a market value (I do wonder how much a 30 day shop ticket would end up selling for; it's literally spending money to make money) and make everything potentially available to the free population, but the way it is now doesn't fall terribly short of that ideal.

Tied into that, I see a lot of criticism of the scratch tickets. I totally understand that. I don't like lotteries and I don't play them, in PSO2 or otherwise. Even though I could afford to play scratch, I much prefer to buy what I want off the market with meseta. On a personal level, I would much prefer to buy a vanity item I'm interested in outright and call it a day. But on a macro level, being able to do that would interfere with the dynamic above. If the scratch players could simply buy what they want for themselves, how many of them would cap their spending that, especially considering the AC costs would undoubtedly be raised (e.g, bikini costs 2k AC) to compensate? there'd be considerably less supply on the market for the free/non scratch playing payers to buy.

So in that sense, I think the scratch is a necessary evil. The evil could be managed better, for sure though. Like, buy x amount of scratches and you get a token that can be redeemed for any item in the scratch.

I mostly agree with your opinion, but I think too much is founded on luck.

The P2W elements are balanced fairly well, but I honestly believe only recently has paying for the game been worth it at all(Purchase of 10*s). The game overall just doesn't oblige too much compensation for the time/effort you put into it over how "lucky" you are.

Example, just about everything aesthetic is pretty affordable barring anything incredibly old. But top-end gear...its all super expensive. Yet some of them aren't even better or are just BARELY better then spellstone equips unless an absurd amount of meseta was poured into them to make them better. Driving prices up a lot.

It just feels like a lot of goals in the game are not well-paced. In PSOBB a lot of rares I found had SOME value. It wasn't just a 1K player shop vendor, or recycle fodder. They had utility, or someone who was still in Very Hard would LOVE to pay me some PDs for it, or the weapon could be traded in a batch for something better. Heck, just the fact that different ID's got different items made your drops valuable to someone else who never got to play with your color.

As it is now, you either drop a ton of time and meseta to get that one fully upgraded 50 element weapon with 4slot lvl 3 potential unlocked, or you pay maybe 1/2 that price for a different skin of the weapon you get from the spellstone shop... That's just so unsatisfying.

[UnLucky]

Though as I was discussing with you earlier, a competitive "Tower" would be my idea of a fun time. Example competing in EC's done, or time finished, or sending enemies or debuffs to the other party in an attempt at getting more out of the tower then them.
I think the buzzword is now PvPvE

Individual parties in an MPA competing against each other for mob kills or other objectives, if not directly killing each other, definitely influencing the opposing side's success.

But with how bad the class balance is already, I don't want to see Sega drop the current player characters, exactly as they are, into an arena and wonder why no one is having any fun.

[Psycl0ne]

Edit:
Okay now that's just too much coincidence for one thread. Whatever, have fun.

believe me, I love PSO2 too much to quit it, I know it's only gonna get better with time... if I could marry it, I would... but it doesn't hurt to check other games out so far looking at youtube videos they don't seem as fun as PSO2 maybe it's just because I have a history with PSO games.

[Zyrusticae]

I think the buzzword is now PvPvE

Individual parties in an MPA competing against each other for mob kills or other objectives, if not directly killing each other, definitely influencing the opposing side's success.

Ooohhh, I'd love to see a game mode that cribs from the competitive tower defense games, where the more one side manages to kill, the more enemies go streaming into the other side. That'd be a great PvPvE game mode right there.

(Now I'm just going to be sad that I'll probably never see it in any MMO, let alone PSO2...)

[Cyclon]

Okay, sorry, I'll be more careful with terminology. Video games are serious business. :p
:-)


You realize that one website can be biased right? Do you put all your faith in to IGN scores/user reviews to help you decide on purchasing a game? This isn't really indicative of anything except the majority opinion exclusive to this website seems to dislike the game (for all the obvious reasons we already know). Just because someone is japanese doesn't mean they don't notice the same things you do.

PSO2 was awarded the 2012 Rookie of the year (a lot of games came out in 2012 mind you) Webmoney award which is tallied by votes. Should I take that and run with it saying PSO2 is the greatest game ever to have released in 2012? I won't, because its also just one website. It's biased.

Just because it's a Japanese website, makes no inherent difference to this logic.
There's that. But I can't seem to manage dismissing that many 1/5. Doesn't make much sense to me.

[Arialle]

Jealous of what? I feel like people say this as a way to invalidate opinions like the use of "haters".

im referring to somerhing like ppl going " WOW Clones " on every new game comments for example

[Cyclon]

But with how bad the class balance is already, I don't want to see Sega drop the current player characters, exactly as they are, into an arena and wonder why no one is having any fun.Been thinking that for quite some time, but I've become a strong pvp supporter in the last months, even though I was completely against it before. The simple reason being that they'll be forced to rebalance the game if pvp is ever included. This will bring other issues later(PVE balanced by PVP, hello world of warcraft), but I feel like we've kinda run out of other options.

believe me, I love PSO2 too much to quit it, I know it's only gonna get better with time... if I could marry it, I would... but it doesn't hurt to check other games out so far looking at youtube videos they don't seem as fun as PSO2 maybe it's just because I have a history with PSO games.
The reason for my post was that I had this exact same conversation with someone a few months ago, that I tend to defend the game like you did, and that I ended up playing other F2P "similar" MMOs just like you're about to(and fun isn't something I had). Also our names are similar for some reason.
That's all, disregard anything I've ever said and all will be well:D

[Ryock]

I'll admit, I was actually expecting fair reviews from the Japanese. Perhaps around the 2.5-3.5 mark. But I was not expecting it to hit THIS low. And to be perfectly honest, I cannot say I entirely disagree with them. There's not a lot to the game at the moment. The list of problems is so large, I can only hit on a few things about the game. Don't get me wrong, I still play a bit, but with each day, I play less and less. There's really no goal for me to attain that looks promising.

Just to hit on some things that personally bother me, and I know bother some others.

-Weapons do not feel unique or interesting. Hunting new weapons just means a slight damage boost.
-There is no reliable way to control spawns or monster count for hunting.
-Drop rates are absolutely abysmal, even for a free to play game.
-Somewhere around half or even more of the PAs and techs are almost entirely useless. Melee and Ranged more so than Tech classes.
-AIs are incredibly uninteresting and offer little to no strategy. It becomes a contest of how fast they can die. Even PSE bursts just encourage players to spam their most OP skills to just kill trash mindlessly for a weapon that will allow you to kill trash quicker.
-There is no real end game content. You simply do TA and AQ all day to hunt those uninteresting weapons and armor sets which will only give a further boost to damage.
-Problems are addressed later rather than sooner. Sega decides we need more costumes instead.
-Many of the skill trees are incredibly messed up.
-There is almost nothing resembling balance in this game. Characters are either far too strong, or enemies far too weak. Weak Bullet, Fury Stance, Force's fire tree, it's all rather ridiculous, and causes me to believe that Sega does not have any number testers at all, rather they stick random numbers in and see if it's somewhat acceptable.
-AC scratches are a ridiculous money sink. If we're going to spend money on your collection of costumes, we'd like to be able to buy it straight out, rather than gamble on the possibility of getting one.
-Nearly everything in the game only encourages doing damage. Nothing in the game encourages other roles, simply because they are unnecessary. It forces everyone to play into a damage role instead of allowing players their unique play style.
-There's this vicious cycle to the game I find ridiculous personally. Killing as fast as you can so you can kill even faster. There are some games this wouldn't be a problem, but the extra damage or effects from a newly acquired piece of gear might make getting through other dungeons or areas so much easier than before. In some cases, the item in question has a neat ability to it, or may change your play style. That is not the case in this game. All of the content in the game can be completed with extreme ease even if you just use simple 9 star armor and stone exchange weapons.

These are the problems that come to me most off the top of my head. PSO2 is... okay I guess. But that's about it. There's nothing to really do. If combat is the selling point, then combat is what needs improvement. Instead, the game is all about dress up. All the money seems to be heading towards what new costume is coming out next week rather than fixing glaringly obvious issues that the game has. The combat system is innately good. But the abilities and mechanics around it leave much to be desired. All I do now is do my daily run of TA, and log off. Even so, I'm getting tired of doing that as well. All I'm going to spend the money on is more costumes anyways, since I can't warrant buying a Deadly Archer weapon with 30 more atk just so I can do around 30-50 more damage.

[UnLucky]

Ideally, I'd like to see the the other AC items (premium, salon, shop, etc) become tradeable so they could find a market value (I do wonder how much a 30 day shop ticket would end up selling for; it's literally spending money to make money) and make everything potentially available to the free population, but the way it is now doesn't fall terribly short of that ideal.

Tied into that, I see a lot of criticism of the scratch tickets. I totally understand that. I don't like lotteries and I don't play them, in PSO2 or otherwise. Even though I could afford to play scratch, I much prefer to buy what I want off the market with meseta. On a personal level, I would much prefer to buy a vanity item I'm interested in outright and call it a day. But on a macro level, being able to do that would interfere with the dynamic above. If the scratch players could simply buy what they want for themselves, how many of them would cap their spending that, especially considering the AC costs would undoubtedly be raised (e.g, bikini costs 2k AC) to compensate? there'd be considerably less supply on the market for the free/non scratch playing payers to buy.
Yes, everything should be tradable. A lot of AC purchasers do so just to get valuable stuff to sell on the shops for meseta, so that much would not change, they would just buy different things depending on the market that day. Plus free players can have access to essential gameplay elements and you can say "you can get everything for in game currency!" That doesn't discourage people from buying AC, it actually encourages it since there are more players with more demand for a purchase that has to be made every time anyway!

I hate the random colors on costumes where half of them are a worthless ghastly sight nobody would be paid to wear (I swear Sega implements them on purpose) with custom colors either locked for no reason or "granted" with a heavy upfront cost. "Hah! You just paid 500 yen for a piss-yellow/puke-green male shoe, please try again!"

That and the rest of the AC scratch being mostly garbage, the only use thereof being to recycle.

[Psycl0ne]

Been thinking that for quite some time, but I've become a strong pvp supporter in the last months, even though I was completely against it before. The simple reason being that they'll be forced to rebalance the game if pvp is ever included. This will bring other issues later(PVE balanced by PVP, hello world of warcraft), but I feel like we've kinda run out of other options.

The reason for my post was that I had this exact same conversation with someone a few months ago, that I tend to defend the game like you did, and that I ended up playing other F2P "similar" MMOs just like you're about to(and fun isn't something I had). Also our names are similar for some reason.
That's all, disregard anything I've ever said and all will be well:D

Funny thing is I was just thinking the same thing about our names lol... it is a strange coincidence now that you mention all that on top of it ^^

[Arialle]

Nearly everything in the game only encourages doing damage. Nothing in the game encourage other roles, simply because they are unnecessary. It forces everyone to play into a damage role instead of allowing players their unique play style.

i honestly prefer it this way for pso2...cause if there is unique play style only certain classes will be neccsary and the rest useless ...like for example making a tank and aggro mobs...we dont need it when forces can obliderate them fast....

and if ur not a dps no one wants u in for TACOs

the only way is different fighting style

[jiasu73]

Number two, the matter of PSO2's F2P model. I'm going to come right out and say it: I think PSO2's F2P model is good. Not even "well, in comparison to Nexon..." good, but actually good. Before I elaborate, let me say that I'd so much rather this be a P2P game, but anyone that's been paying attention knows that the era of P2P RPGs has its foot in the grave and is just waiting for WoW to keel over before it jumps in. In light of that, I think PSO2 goes about the F2P thing rather well.

The basis of why I believe it's a good model is in the fact that all of the AC scratch items are disseminated to the free playing population, i.e, no AC scratch item is exclusive to the paying population. This is key, since barring exclusivity is a prime way to avoid creating a schism between the free and paying populations that eventually lead to the game being called P2W. Ideally, I'd like to see the the other AC items (premium, salon, shop, etc) become tradeable so they could find a market value (I do wonder how much a 30 day shop ticket would end up selling for; it's literally spending money to make money) and make everything potentially available to the free population, but the way it is now doesn't fall terribly short of that ideal.

Tied into that, I see a lot of criticism of the scratch tickets. I totally understand that. I don't like lotteries and I don't play them, in PSO2 or otherwise. Even though I could afford to play scratch, I much prefer to buy what I want off the market with meseta. On a personal level, I would much prefer to buy a vanity item I'm interested in outright and call it a day. But on a macro level, being able to do that would interfere with the dynamic above. If the scratch players could simply buy what they want for themselves, how many of them would cap their spending that, especially considering the AC costs would undoubtedly be raised (e.g, bikini costs 2k AC) to compensate? there'd be considerably less supply on the market for the free/non scratch playing payers to buy.

So in that sense, I think the scratch is a necessary evil. The evil could be managed better, for sure though. Like, buy x amount of scratches and you get a token that can be redeemed for any item in the scratch.

Strongly agree with what you said here. Nothing so far in the AC scratch model has anything that the free players cannot access which is a great thing. I use to play Chinese Dragonest which had exclusive costume/aesthetic items that affected stats. These items were only obtainable through their version of the gacha which was terrible since it set apart the maximums for stats between free players and those who payed. It's nice that free players can realistically get aesthetics and decent gear through the rewards offered by certain CO's available.

One thing though that the paying player has a huge advantage in is the ability to acquire funds through marketing/myshop. This is a bit huge since free players are pretty much stuck with a set amount of meseta gain compared to those with shops. As of now the paying players have a really big advantage when it comes to funding their gear, and obtaining aesthetics since cutting the ability for players to merchant is a big disadvantage for funding your desired things.

[MetalDude]

i honestly prefer it this way for pso2...cause if there is unique play style only certain classes will be neccsary and the rest useless ...like for example making a tank and aggro mobs...we dont need it when forces can obliderate them fast....

and if ur not a dps no one wants u in for TACOs

the only way is different fighting style

I think you're missing the point. We're already mostly forced or at least pushed away entirely from playing anything else that isn't the best damage. It's not about roles, it's about being able to play a unique role without feeling horrifically gimped.

[Ryock]

i honestly prefer it this way for pso2...cause if there is unique play style only certain classes will be neccsary and the rest useless ...like for example making a tank and aggro mobs...we dont need it when forces can obliderate them fast....

and if ur not a dps no one wants u in for TACOs

the only way is different fighting style

If you're not a dps, no one wants you for TACOs. And there my friend, is my point. When everyone has the exact same role, stagnation becomes even easier to accomplish. By having more defined roles, you bring more variation to combat. So rather than pigeonholing everyone into a single role, the combat should allow for more variation in roles to reward players for having a certain class combo with them. Not to say that four damage classes would not be possible to do battle and win, but by bringing someone who for example, tanks or supports(and by support, I do not mean just heals, there are other ways to support too), you may have a safer or more rewarding experience.

For example. A melee guy is having a hard time doing damage to a big boss because he happens to have an ability that puts a big barrier up around him, and if he's attacked during this barrier, he'll unleash all the damage he would have taken in one big blast. A support force in the back sees it, and has a way to either off-set the boss' balance, thereby deactivating the shield, or may have an ability in their skill tree(yes, skill tree, not their techs) that can dispel effects on monsters.

But this is just one example that comes off the top of my head. The game gets boring if everyone is doing the exact same role with slight variations of it(the variations being range, tech, melee).

But this involves having monsters with more complicated AIs and movesets to warrant using tactics like this in the first place.

[Xaeris]

Yes, everything should be tradable. A lot of AC purchasers do so just to get valuable stuff to sell on the shops for meseta, so that much would not change, they would just buy different things depending on the market that day. Plus free players can have access to essential gameplay elements and you can say "you can get everything for in game currency!" That doesn't discourage people from buying AC, it actually encourages it since there are more players with more demand for a purchase that has to be made every time anyway!

I hate the random colors on costumes where half of them are a worthless ghastly sight nobody would be paid to wear (I swear Sega implements them on purpose) with custom colors either locked for no reason or "granted" with a heavy upfront cost. "Hah! You just paid 500 yen for a piss-yellow/puke-green male shoe, please try again!"

That and the rest of the AC scratch being mostly garbage, the only use thereof being to recycle.

I disagree; it would change. I'll lay out my reasoning. First, allowing players to buy what they want specifically would lead to Sega increasing the AC costs of items to balance the loss of revenue from people no longer having to gamble. Let's say I see a hairstyle I like in the catalog and decide I want to get it. To buy it outright, let's say it costs...I don't know, 1k AC. The exact amount isn't important in my reasoning as you'll see. So, I buy 1k AC. In the current system, 1k AC would produce five items (or two, if you're playing the gold scratch for some bizarre reason). Maybe I get the hairstyle in those five plays (lol, yeah right) and sell off the rest. Maybe (probably) I don't get it and sell off the items to subsidize buying hairstyle ticket from the shop.

In an a la carte system, 1k produces one item, which I will then use, creating nothing for the market. I have what I want, which is certainly good. But, here's the important part. I only bought 1k AC. Now that I have what I want, I ain't buying anymore until the next scratch. I only created one item in this system versus the five I create in the scratch system despite the end result (getting the hairstyle ticket) being the same in both cases.

There are certainly people who play scratch with the goal of obtaining items for the explicit purpose of selling them for meseta, but the same principle applies. If Mr. Reseller spends 4k AC on scratch tickets, he'll generate 22 items. If he spends that much AC in an a la carte system, he'll generate...less. Granted, those fewer items will be highly desirable items instead of being mixed in with puke colored hobo wizard costumes, but that raises another issue. There would be items, despite having some value, that would be ignored in favor of bigger ticket items; basically, there'd be a hell of a lot more female costumes than male costumes, among other problems. Laws of supply and demand would theoretically fix that, but a scratch only lasts four weeks and I doubt an a la carte system would abandon that rotational nature. I don't think a market could find equilibrium quickly enough, being subjected to constant flux like that.

[BlankM]

I think the buzzword is now PvPvE

Individual parties in an MPA competing against each other for mob kills or other objectives, if not directly killing each other, definitely influencing the opposing side's success.

But with how bad the class balance is already, I don't want to see Sega drop the current player characters, exactly as they are, into an arena and wonder why no one is having any fun.


Ooohhh, I'd love to see a game mode that cribs from the competitive tower defense games, where the more one side manages to kill, the more enemies go streaming into the other side. That'd be a great PvPvE game mode right there.

(Now I'm just going to be sad that I'll probably never see it in any MMO, let alone PSO2...)

It could be unbalanced yeah, but thats life. There will almost always be more efficient party combinations, and really only randomness or gear to alleviate the difference. Player skill would have to be determined by some other "game-within-a-game."(If I could just win based on sheer APM I'd just be having a ball until I met someone with macros for example) That or certain areas or ECs that some party combinations would be better at, hence "randomness."

The most I ask for is something fun and challenging to bring three other players into. Do I want to compete a 3x Ra/Hu + Fo team every match and trade numbers all day? Probably not. But it would be fun to have some competitive investment against the general population so its not just slaying AI every day.

[supersonix9]

if people want to complain then they should just like, not play the game

[Sp-24]

if people want to complain then they should just like, not play the game
Yeah, the idea of improving something through player feedback is overrated anyway.

[supersonix9]

see, someone gets the idea

bwahahaha

[BlankM]

If people want to complain they should stop paying money.*

Said no scratcher ever.

[Ryock]

if people want to complain then they should just like, not play the game

You can provide player feedback in a realistic manner without being whiny though. Which, even if I can't speak for anyone else, I can at least speak for myself. It's very valuable to give input on situations which you may find unfavorable to yourself or others.

[gravityvx]

Player feedback sent to sega mutates into more clothes and welfare rares.

[BlankM]

As I said, player feedback needs to effect their wallet.

Which isn't happening as far as I know.

[supersonix9]

of course player feedback is good. it's just that so many people on this forum complain that the game has all of these terrible flaws and features, and (while providing reasonable solutions (sometimes) ) still play the game and act like it's bound to their life. like why pay for scratch in a game that you don't even like at its current state


i know it's not everybody, and I just feel like rambling, but it seems to be like that in some cases.

[gigawuts]

who actually pays for scratch

seriously

that's an actual question

[Xaeris]

Someone is. God bless them.

[supersonix9]

who actually pays for scratch

seriously

that's an actual question

a lot of people apparently; maybe the japanese who gave the game a 1.88

[Sp-24]

Not me, definitely. I did buy premium after almost a year, though, so maybe future me does, I dunno. But not now. Ugh.

[RadiantLegend]

People who don't know what to do with money.

[Zyrusticae]

Someone is. God bless them.
Yeah, have to be grateful to those guys with TONS more money than sense for subsidizing the game for the rest of us.

They're the only reason you can buy pretty much any scratch item you want off the market, given enough spare change.

But seriously, Episode 2 is our last hope. Our final bastion. There is nothing further. If Episode 2 fails, my flame, at least, will sputter out and my spirit will be no more.

I will give up gaming forever if they fail. (No not really, but I'm seriously hoping they don't shit on everyone who sent in feedback through the player surveys...)

[supersonix9]

but like, it wont fail

[Xaeris]

I'm pretty confident that Episode 2 is gonna be fab. Not because of optimism. Because of history.

"Hey, you remember how PSO v1 was a hot mess and we fixed up a whole bunch of shit wrong with it in v2 and Episode 2?"
"Ha, yeah, those were wild times."
"And then, and then, how vanilla PSU was a crock of festering garbage that we spruced the hell out of in Ambition of the Illuminus."
"Mm hmm..."
"How about we do that again, for PSO2 and its episode 2?"
"Genius. Have all of the raises."

[BlankM]

Someone is. God bless them.

I can only imagine one person funding the server and spreading the joy of miniskirts everywhere to everybody.

[Zyrusticae]

Yeah. I'm pretty hopeful given precedent with the previous games' expansions. And seriously, they have to be doing SOMETHING with all those player surveys... they can't just be putting them out there just because (I mean that shit ain't free, after all).

It's just irritating that they've so far shown basically no signs of actually making use of all that information. Nothing at all! It's weird, man. It worries me.

[Xaeris]

I can only imagine one person funding the server and spreading the joy of miniskirts everywhere to everybody.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_letms8vnbA1qai8n4.jpg

[supersonix9]

the content for episode 2 is the kind of stuff that they can't even use to pull off a money-grabbing stunt. areas, classes, weapon types; they won't deprive free players of that, and those are all major things that basically build the core game

[Sp-24]

Don't expect this "episode 2" to be a massive improvement. It's just a code word (and number) for a second year of drip-fed content that will be exactly the same as it was before, with maybe like one or two mistakes learned and one actually fixed, though even that's unlikely. We already know that Extreme Quests is just AQs that are even more randomized. Story mode will be just as uninspired as it is now, and the introduction of Dumans is going to be about as well executed as Quna's backstory or Falz' associates' appearance. Everything else will stay the same - new areas will be coming out every few months with no story explanation until a month later, weapon recolors will be outclassing whatever you have now sometime soon, and AC scratch will not become more focused on guys' outfits ever.

What are people expecting, anyway?

[KazukiQZ]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_letms8vnbA1qai8n4.jpg
Mustang FTW!!! xD

[Zyrusticae]

What are people expecting, anyway?
I'm expecting them to do something with all of that feedback they've been collecting in the player surveys.

I refuse to believe they're just going to ignore everything players have been putting in them until they actually do it (and if they DO ignore everything, that just makes them incredibly massive super-douchebags for getting our hopes up in the first place).

[otaku998]

Expecting more stuffs so people have newer things to complaint on, i guess...?

While i agree the game has those glaring flaws and need improvements, i don't really think bringing that website score into the table spark up anything new, same to this thread. Review can be biased, reviewers are all humans etc.

Honestly these threads keep popping up every now and then, and like lookkk someone in JP said the same thing as me i am right! is what i feels about the topic right now.

Don't think i have a right to tell people to do the "feedback" in moderation but eh.

[BlankM]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_letms8vnbA1qai8n4.jpg

This is exactly what I was thinking of lol.

It only worries me because their advertising of the game has been so vindicative. Costumes team rooms, kawaii voice actresses, lobbies costumes, hey like 5-10 minutes of gameplay content!...

Its like, SEGA I know this is where your money is but please. You only further perpetuate the stereotype. Notice how this was not a problem in other PS games?

That said, if its truly from the same team as the rest of the series then they have LOTS of room to improve. The game is nowhere near deadlocked into being a bad game forever.

[.Jack]

who actually pays for scratch

seriously

that's an actual question

People buying premium that have extra AC left over would be my guess. The last time I finished buying I had 250AC left and there was nothing else I could do with it. I agree it's not worth playing, but eh.. :-D

[Zipzo]

Ooohhh, I'd love to see a game mode that cribs from the competitive tower defense games, where the more one side manages to kill, the more enemies go streaming into the other side. That'd be a great PvPvE game mode right there.

(Now I'm just going to be sad that I'll probably never see it in any MMO, let alone PSO2...)

It's called a MOBA. I won't insult your intelligence in assuming you didn't know what that was, I'm just simply injecting here that what you described is like, well, the whole point of a MOBA.

[Xaeris]

Though, anyone who thinks PSOW is toxic should probably stay roughly a square universe away from any MOBA.

[jerrykun]

Though, anyone who thinks PSOW is toxic should probably stay roughly a square universe away from any MOBA.

I know from what community that word comes from, and I will not say its name.

[gigawuts]

People buying premium that have extra AC left over would be my guess. The last time I finished buying I had 250AC left and there was nothing else I could do with it. I agree it's not worth playing, but eh.. :-D

That's probably where most of the income is coming from, yeah. People with a bit extra that want something else, but aren't necessarily sure what. So they get a few of one of the cheapest things available.

It's also part of the standard practice to sell currency and items in uneven amounts, then sell some one-off thing cheap enough to fill in the difference. In this case, premium is 1300 and scratches are 100, while you can only buy AC in multiples of 500.

I'm sure players in your situation far outweigh the ones that buy swathes of scratchcards.

[LightBreaker]

I enjoy wreaking havoc in my Gandam.

[Zenobia]

I know from what community that word comes from, and I will not say its name.

^This man speaks the truth as I to know my lips are sealed as saying so would draw the fuck bomb and this thread would become hella fucking ugly.

[Zipzo]

Though, anyone who thinks PSOW is toxic should probably stay roughly a square universe away from any MOBA.

Except your only grounds to even suggest that PSO2 is toxic is purely B-20, which makes this quite an invalid statement.

Also...

League of Legends low rated, random mix-up match community isn't definitive of its highly competitive (in just about every single country that has competitive gaming), organized community.

That's like me criticizing the United States's environment after seeing a few pictures of a New York sewer.

[Xaeris]

Except your only grounds to even suggest that PSO2 is toxic is purely B-20, which makes this quite an invalid statement.

Okay. So. Couple things wrong here.

1. PSOW, not PSO2.

2. The statement does not make an assertion about PSOW. It speaks of people who make an assertion about PSOW.

3. A new player to LoL is going to spend far more time with the former portion of that community than they will with the latter.

[Zipzo]

Okay. So. Couple things wrong here.

1. PSOW, not PSO2.

2. The statement does not make an assertion about PSOW. It speaks of people who make an assertion about PSOW.

Okay, you're right, I misread although it means little to the sentiment.

However I still move my Rook to C-7 with my second statement and place you back in check.

[Zenobia]

Okay, you're right, I misread although it means little to the sentiment.

However I still move my Rook to C-7 with my second statement and place you back in check.

Noice word play~!

[ShinMaruku]

Though, anyone who thinks PSOW is toxic should probably stay roughly a square universe away from any MOBA.

MOBAs by design will make their communities toxic.

[UnLucky]

a new LoL player plays against bots until they can not get butt destroyed in random queue

[Eutechnyx]

I enjoy it too, but I just want some more exciting game modes (like something that's actually difficult for once) and for them to fix the MANY glaring balance issues still in the game. Oh, and my Laia Repca plzkthx.

It does rather bother me when I see people decrying it as the WORST. GAME. EVER!, as I really feel it's pretty fucking far from that state of travesty. It's got loads of issues, but some of the emotional responses to these issues just seem waaay over the line at times (see, for example, RemiusTA's posts, especially on bumped.org). It is, indeed, possible to criticize things without sounding like a massive douchebag and insulting everyone who actually likes the game in the process.

Still, the mystery remains - why put out all these surveys if you're not actually going to use the feedback from them? They must be doing something with them, but what? Is it all waiting for Episode 2? Gawd, all this wondering is making the wait for solid information rather painful...


Hello, I am new to this forum, well ill get to the point:
-Just to be blunt, this game isn't the worst game ever, its WAY far from that, I can shwo you a good example of one of the worst games ever. http://world.needforspeed.com/
Its basically run by EA company, im sure u know that its rated as one of the worst companies in the world lately. This game not only does the same marketing system(selling cars) as SEGA does(costumes), but not only that EA doesn't fix that game at all, its been 3 years since its release, nothing's done, no new maps/areas/contents, only 1 or 2 game modes within 3 YEARS! Not to mention that game lacks of security problems, infact, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY, so the result is = cheaters everywhere.

So just to get my point here, PSO2 is WAY better than that game which I mentioned above, either SEGA devs are doing in secret or idk. Up to you guys.

[UnLucky]

to be fair, that game is way more fun with super fast flying cars than anything you can drive legitimately

[Eutechnyx]

i dont see whats all the big hoo haa about this...i know pso2 has its flaws...yes dudu is a bitch...i hated some of the map designs and how shitty the darkers are compared to pso1

but as well pso2 has things that most MMORPGs don't
1) social and multiplayer plays...alpt of interactions between players in lobby..room system and eben mostly party which makes it more fun. I quit mmos within a week mostly when i figure i can solo the entire game other than world bosses....like BnS, RO2, DN...no one really interacts and chill and ppl only bothers u when ur a suitable need for raids

2) the combat system is definity better back then...we didnt even have jumps in pso1...and this isnt the shitty oh i click on a mob i just keep spamming my skills hotkey numbers like in WOW and wait for the monster to die...*repeat*

3) good music soundtracks that most games dont even bother to put effort in...the difference in music in RO2 and RO1 says it all...

well these are some but i aint gonna state every single one...

and yes i know this game has its bad points like dudu being a faggot...actual content isnt as much yet...shits like trading needs to be premium

i aint gonna complain about drop rares...cause im like u feggits shld just farm TACOs for money and get AQ weapons cause they are already nearly as good as the most powerful weapons...there are lotsa alternatives

as compared to all the shitty click and move grinding games and games that only cares about graphics...i honestly feel pso2 is the kind.of games we need these days...no MMO has satisfied me since Fantasy earth zero but it had to haf a shitty host thus it closed down and i cant get into the jp svr

The only 100% agree on u is about the dudu, the only thing that makes me rage so badly in PSO2, even broke my mouse once. >.<

[Xaeris]

See, to me, it seems like it would be less work to just go, "oops, I misunderstood your post, sorry about that," than to go through the mental gymnastics necessary to retcon one's post into something pertinent. But whatever, knock yourself out. It's not like I have to do anything.

[Eutechnyx]

to be fair, that game is way more fun with super fast flying cars than anything you can drive legitimately

Fun you say? Try to get into Multiplayer race and try to actually win especially when u have an "achievements" in that game that u must win like 250 times, which is almost impossible due to them, I was online yesterday and I was shocked, every race i played (10-20 MPs) all of them had autofinisher cheaters, thats just ridiculous, and EA is hiding this fact about cheaters, they don't agree with the community, it used to be lots of raging in nfsw forums, but it stopped now, since there's no hope for fixing that stuff.

Also yeah, not gonna deny, it has its own fun in the game.

[Eutechnyx]

See, to me, it seems like it would be less work to just go, "oops, I misunderstood your post, sorry about that," than to go through the mental gymnastics necessary to retcon one's post into something pertinent. But whatever, knock yourself out. It's not like I have to do anything.

Anyways, asically what I was doing is, comparing theese 2 games, just stating my opinion that PSO2 isnt that bad which on 1st 5 pages i've read. But yeah, im not gonna disagree with that, but considering that i've played even worse games, this is by far from bad ones. But thats just my opinion.

[UnLucky]

Fun you say? Try to get into Multiplayer race and try to actually win especially when u have an "achievements" in that game that u must win like 250 times, which is almost impossible due to them, I was online yesterday and I was shocked, every race i played (10-20 MPs) all of them had autofinisher cheaters, thats just ridiculous, and EA is hiding this fact about cheaters, they don't agree with the community, it used to be lots of raging in nfsw forums, but it stopped now, since there's no hope for fixing that stuff.

Also yeah, not gonna deny, it has its own fun in the game.
I mean just in the sandbox world map, not race grinding.

[Zenobia]

Anyways, asically what I was doing is, comparing theese 2 games, just stating my opinion that PSO2 isnt that bad which on 1st 5 pages i've read. But yeah, im not gonna disagree with that, but considering that i've played even worse games, this is by far from bad ones. But thats just my opinion.

That wasn't to you he was talking to Zipzo your quote is mis-directed<3

[Skyly HUmar]

Anyways, asically what I was doing is, comparing theese 2 games, just stating my opinion that PSO2 isnt that bad which on 1st 5 pages i've read. But yeah, im not gonna disagree with that, but considering that i've played even worse games, this is by far from bad ones. But thats just my opinion.

just because there are worse games doesnt make a game good lol.

and i just wrote the longest letter in my survey, hopefully they listen to at least one of the things in there X.x

[MetalDude]

This game is better than FarmVille.

So clearly, PSO2 is god tier.

[Zenobia]

just because there are worse games doesnt make a game good lol.

and i just wrote the longest letter in my survey, hopefully they listen to at least one of the things in there X.x

I remember writing they should add more acc slots I have a lot of acc that I wear on Yuri and I hate when I have to get rid of some of them it hurts me inside o3o....

[UnLucky]

Hey, FarmVille makes a lot of money, you know

[Zipzo]

See, to me, it seems like it would be less work to just go, "oops, I misunderstood your post, sorry about that," than to go through the mental gymnastics necessary to retcon one's post into something pertinent. But whatever, knock yourself out. It's not like I have to do anything.

Except the misunderstanding is actually completely irrelevant to the overall point.

I also did say I misunderstood. I even called you right (how often do you see Zipzo calling someone right? You take that and put it in your pocket gently). I didn't retcon anything. I don't like editing and transforming a post just to make it look I actually didn't misunderstand, I leave it there like a man, un-touched.

But whatever, be an asshole. It's not like I care.

[UnLucky]

Where do you think Block 20 inhabitants come from? POS-W, obviously

[Zipzo]

=POS-W, obviouslyI tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooootally get it. Haha.

[Eutechnyx]

That wasn't to you he was talking to Zipzo your quote is mis-directed<3

Ooooh. :-P

[Eutechnyx]

just because there are worse games doesnt make a game good lol.

and i just wrote the longest letter in my survey, hopefully they listen to at least one of the things in there X.x

True, but comparing these games, pso2 is still better one than the one I used to play.

[~Aya~]

this is nonstop baby

you've got me going crazy~

you're heavier than I knew

but i don't want no other

you're my cameo love~

only here for a moment or two

you stay inside that bubble

with all of your trouble

in your black hole

you turn from the skies, you dance with your demise~

i'll be here when you come home~

We've all gotta break down. Let me come and break down with you~

cause everyday's like talking in your sleep!
love is like a silhouette in dreaaaammss~

open up your heart! open up your heeeaaarrrrt! open up your heart~

[Psycl0ne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfboOt1bJcA

[Zenobia]

this is nonstop baby

you've got me going crazy~

you're heavier than I knew

but i don't want no other

you're my cameo love~

only here for a moment or two

you stay inside that bubble

with all of your trouble

in your black hole

you turn from the skies, you dance with your demise~

i'll be here when you come home~

We've all gotta break down. Let me come and break down with you~

cause everyday's like talking in your sleep!
love is like a silhouette in dreaaaammss~

open up your heart! open up your heeeaaarrrrt! open up your heart~

I so love randomness.

I come with power to “defeat”, you gon need a MIC 2 STOP IT//
I’ll probably stomp on you unintentionally cuz you MI-CRO-SCOPIC//
Your “Rhymes a Joke” lemme guess, you couldn’t “find the scope”?//
I’ll have you left just like your rhymes, cause your Rhymes is Broke//
Imma Design your face just like a Kaleidoscope//
If you anger me, my daggers gonna COLLIDE-with ya-THROAT//
You act famous, maybe on your corner where you BUY~the~DOPE//
But round here? I couldn’t find you with a MICROSCOPE//
Sorry Kid, I really wish I could say I~SEE~YOU//
But only time I do is when you in the I.C.U//Intensive Care Unit
When It comes 2 Rhymin I don’t care Christain, Catholic, Or Anglican//
I’ll have u stunned so bad you’ll stand just like a MANICAN//
I’m so hott, yet so cold, im like Jesus was//(Powerful)
Only time u coulnd’t feel me’s under ANESTHESIA//
When I talk I won’t take it back, cause what I say, I meant it//
You better believe Im from I.B that makes me SO AUTHENTIC//I.B a.k.a IllBattle
SO baiscally I don' understand why u wanna b facing me//
Im worth about 10 times more then your ACV//
So tell me is it really me that your tryna battle?//
10 cents your ACV, which is your ACTUAL CASH VALUE//(Check the Dictionary)
I come in “storming”, “Whore, this” is Me, Im like a GLOBAL WARMING//
SO Beware Cajun cause this IS your ONLY~WARNING

[~Aya~]

I so love randomness.

I come with power to “defeat”, you gon need a MIC 2 STOP IT//
I’ll probably stomp on you unintentionally cuz you MI-CRO-SCOPIC//
Your “Rhymes a Joke” lemme guess, you couldn’t “find the scope”?//
I’ll have you left just like your rhymes, cause your Rhymes is Broke//
Imma Design your face just like a Kaleidoscope//
If you anger me, my daggers gonna COLLIDE-with ya-THROAT//
You act famous, maybe on your corner where you BUY~the~DOPE//
But round here? I couldn’t find you with a MICROSCOPE//
Sorry Kid, I really wish I could say I~SEE~YOU//
But only time I do is when you in the I.C.U//Intensive Care Unit
When It comes 2 Rhymin I don’t care Christain, Catholic, Or Anglican//
I’ll have u stunned so bad you’ll stand just like a MANICAN//
I’m so hott, yet so cold, im like Jesus was//(Powerful)
Only time u coulnd’t feel me’s under ANESTHESIA//
When I talk I won’t take it back, cause what I say, I meant it//
You better believe Im from I.B that makes me SO AUTHENTIC//I.B a.k.a IllBattle
SO baiscally I don' understand why u wanna b facing me//
Im worth about 10 times more then your ACV//
So tell me is it really me that your tryna battle?//
10 cents your ACV, which is your ACTUAL CASH VALUE//(Check the Dictionary)
I come in “storming”, “Whore, this” is Me, Im like a GLOBAL WARMING//
SO Beware Cajun cause this IS your ONLY~WARNING

AYE GURR... WHO U THANK U IS? WILL SMITH?

[Zenobia]

AYE GURR... WHO U THANK U IS? WILL SMITH?

Im only one person and that is Zenobia A.K.A Yuri and it aint gunna change...I won't change for no one. I refuse to change up on people and become a different person no matter who my new friends are or old dun want to give the wrong impression.

No matter how good I got it I still wont change I will always be me.~

You've changed a bit Aya I just dun hope you dun change to much and forget about the ones you were around though that's part of life it's natural.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

imma dress up yuri in maid cosplay when i get back

[Zenobia]

imma dress up yuri in maid cosplay when i get back

Me and dat maid fit still fussing o3o.

[~Aya~]

Im only one person and that is Zenobia A.K.A Yuri and it aint gunna change...I won't change for no one. I refuse to change up on people and become a different person no matter who my new friends are or old dun want to give the wrong impression.

No matter how good I got it I still wont change I will always be me.~

You've changed a bit Aya I just dun hope you dun change to much and forget about the ones you were around though that's part of life it's natural.


you are right.. at first I kept to myself in game for the longest time and was shy and such and stuck with JP players as I was only comfortable around them~ that has been gradually changing over time.

i now enjoy company of EN players and am not afraid to speak out and say whatever comes to mind for the most part.. even if it's ugly and a dumb joke or something >>;... gotta stay nice though to the people of PSO2 and everyone else for that matter~

Might not receive same treatment in return. However, it is what it is. <3

[Rien]

I have to admit, I have yet to see another game able to maintain such a strong love/hate relationship with its playerbase.

Cosmic Break.

...Just saying.

[Sp-24]

How about any EA game series in the past few years?

[~Aya~]

How about any EA game series in the past few years?


mind = blown

[Zenobia]

you are right.. at first I kept to myself in game for the longest time and was shy and such and stuck with JP players as I was only comfortable around them~ that has been gradually changing over time.

i now enjoy company of EN players and am not afraid to speak out and say whatever comes to mind for the most part.. even if it's ugly and a dumb joke or something >>;... gotta stay nice though to the people of PSO2 and everyone else for that matter~

Might not receive same treatment in return. However, it is what it is. <3

Word and noted stay like that dun change for anyone~.

[UnLucky]

How about any EA game series in the past few years?
he said love/hate

[Porkmaster]

Man, these complaints seem awfully familiar.

[Cagedtaytay]

he said love/hate

SimCity.

[gigawuts]

For the love hate thing, just gonna bring up MOBAs again. Also, TF2 has a startling number of parallels with this game. The content is an FPS player versus player game, but a whole lot about it is comparable nowadays. Items, F2P, players throwing clusterfucks over a class/weapon being OP, etc.

Oh god, the hate for TF2 from the same people for years and years was just hilarious.

[Walkure]

Damn, that's a good point.
Hats:TF2::Costumes:PSO2

[gigawuts]

Damn, that's a good point.
Hats:TF2::Costumes:PSO2

It's a point I make pretty frequently and is overlooked just as frequently. It's just a fact: Other games take F2P and do it better, did it earlier, and will last longer.

Pretty much everything PSO2 handles horribly with its items (weapons & cosmetic) is done better in TF2. TF2 rewards the player with bonuses, gifts, and frequent easy drops that accumulate a bit into the next week if you miss them one week. These drops are the best they can be as soon as you find them and do not require any level of improvement to compare well with what you're already using - just to be used differently, due to their bonuses and intended role. PSO2 punishes you for trying, makes items exceptionally rare, and does not differentiate weapons with bonuses in any way beyond 12% damage to one PA at best.

Hats? You find 'em all the time. Without paying. Or even trading. But you can also just outright BUY the one you want. Is anyone going to say the lottery is REQUIRED for TF2 to be profitable? Anyone? Look up how much the content creators are getting for their hats. Tell me that ain't profitable. Crates just add on top of that, and they do it very well.

People like to say that things can't compare because TF2 is competitive, but that's a crock and everyone knows it. If it wasn't, PSO1 wouldn't have had items dropping WAY more often than this that did more things and were freely tradable if you were online. Oh, what's that? But it's free to play, why would people be interested in paying if it was free? Because of all the bonuses you'll get. For the exact same reason 10* markets are completely saturated by F2P players with 3 day shop passes - because when people get things, they want to play more. Weird concept, right?

The expression "you get more flies with honey than vinegar" may be literally false, but is figuratively true.

[Coatl]

Sega will know what they're doing one day...
one day

[~Aya~]

It's a point I make pretty frequently and is overlooked just as frequently. It's just a fact: Other games take F2P and do it better, did it earlier, and will last longer.

Pretty much everything PSO2 handles horribly with its items (weapons & cosmetic) is done better in TF2. TF2 rewards the player with bonuses, gifts, and frequent easy drops that accumulate a bit into the next week if you miss them one week. These drops are the best they can be as soon as you find them and do not require any level of improvement to compare well with what you're already using - just to be used differently, due to their bonuses and intended role. PSO2 punishes you for trying, makes items exceptionally rare, and does not differentiate weapons with bonuses in any way beyond 12% damage to one PA at best.

Hats? You find 'em all the time. Without paying. Or even trading. But you can also just outright BUY the one you want. Is anyone going to say the lottery is REQUIRED for TF2 to be profitable? Anyone? Look up how much the content creators are getting for their hats. Tell me that ain't profitable. Crates just add on top of that, and they do it very well.

People like to say that things can't compare because TF2 is competitive, but that's a crock and everyone knows it. If it wasn't, PSO1 wouldn't have had items dropping WAY more often than this that did more things and were freely tradable if you were online. Oh, what's that? But it's free to play, why would people be interested in paying if it was free? Because of all the bonuses you'll get. For the exact same reason 10* markets are completely saturated by F2P players with 3 day shop passes - because when people get things, they want to play more. Weird concept, right?

The expression "you get more flies with honey than vinegar" may be literally false, but is figuratively true.


come out of quitou mode and play game for free, i has bagel bites~

[gigawuts]

I open the launcher every few days and wonder about what I'll do

I realize I'll do tacos to earn money to still fail to grind my steam knuckle to +10, after 16 failed 9->10 attempts.

No I think I'm okay hunting for Rathalos Carapaces right now.

[Walkure]

That's some ridiculously bad luck, there.

Also making me wish I had a Wii U for the new MH ;;

[Zyrusticae]

It's called a MOBA. I won't insult your intelligence in assuming you didn't know what that was, I'm just simply injecting here that what you described is like, well, the whole point of a MOBA.
Uh, no, that's not a MOBA. No MOBA I've played has a mode where you just constantly kill NPCs and killing those NPCs sends more to the other side and you don't engage in direct combat with the enemy players whatsoever.

Speaking of, that'd be a great game mode for MOBAs too! Why isn't this happening?!

[~Aya~]

I open the launcher every few days and wonder about what I'll do

I realize I'll do tacos to earn money to still fail to grind my steam knuckle to +10, after 16 failed 9->10 attempts.

No I think I'm okay hunting for Rathalos Carapaces right now.


still .. i'm in the team and i haven't gotten to really play with you.. i'm a lil sad because of that~

[AgemFrostMage]

I can only imagine one person funding the server and spreading the joy of miniskirts everywhere to everybody.

Gave a cute image in my head, *squeals* ^_^

If PSO2 comes here I'll buy premium, maybe some EXP boosters, and talent trees first, then the month after maybe buy deluxe scratches.

[AgemFrostMage]

I think the buzzword is now PvPvE

Individual parties in an MPA competing against each other for mob kills or other objectives, if not directly killing each other, definitely influencing the opposing side's success.

But with how bad the class balance is already, I don't want to see Sega drop the current player characters, exactly as they are, into an arena and wonder why no one is having any fun.

Yes, cannot have partisan and whip hunters/techer or fighter/techer with healing, or force/techer with samegid role everyone *grins evil*. Maybe have some classes be PvP friendly but others for PvE?

[Skyly HUmar]

True, but comparing these games, pso2 is still better one than the one I used to play.

again, just because it's better than your old game doesnt make pso2 good.

[ReaperTheAbsol]

I open the launcher every few days and wonder about what I'll do

I realize I'll do tacos to earn money to still fail to grind my steam knuckle to +10, after 16 failed 9->10 attempts.

No I think I'm okay hunting for Rathalos Carapaces right now.

You reminded me that I need to farm it as well.

[gigawuts]

again, just because it's better than your old game doesnt make pso2 good.

No, he has a point. Also, starving africans shouldn't complain, I mean it's better than Auschwitz.

[Zipzo]

Uh, no, that's not a MOBA. No MOBA I've played has a mode where you just constantly kill NPCs and killing those NPCs sends more to the other side and you don't engage in direct combat with the enemy players whatsoever.

Speaking of, that'd be a great game mode for MOBAs too! Why isn't this happening?!

Uh, yes, it is a MOBA.

The only possible scenario you could disagree is that you're getting hung up on semantics.

You are constantly killing NPC's in MOBA's. It's called farming. Effectively farming allows more of your NPC's to walk by without being killed, enabling you to kill towers. You rinse and repeat this simple strategy for 30-45 minutes until you are able to spawn more powerful NPC's in conjunction with the basic ones, which help you eventually overpower the opponents main towers and main base.

The only additional concept is that of players being added to the mix, and players naturally have the most influence on the direction of the game, that doesn't make the NPC's utterly useless, as both farming the opponents NPC's and the presence of your own is required to win. And to be fair, why would you want a PvPvE game mode that doesn't involve the actual players getting to fight? You're probably part of an extremely small minority of people that would care for such a thing.

What you've described is like, a MOBA in every sense of how you play a MOBA.

[gigawuts]

"These two things are different because players fight eachother directly."

"No, they're exactly the same, except the players fight eachother directly."

[Zipzo]

"These two things are different because players fight eachother directly."

"No, they're exactly the same, except the players fight eachother directly."

The point I'm trying to make is that the involvement of players shouldn't really be a disqualifier in counting MOBA's as a game where you utilize NPC's and the killing of your enemies NPC's to over power your opponents.

[RagolianHunter]

No, he has a point. Also, starving africans shouldn't complain, I mean it's better than Auschwitz.

Lol I got one too:

No, he has a point. Also a captive of Auschwitz is having a better time then someone at Camp 22.

[yoshiblue]

Uh, no, that's not a MOBA. No MOBA I've played has a mode where you just constantly kill NPCs and killing those NPCs sends more to the other side and you don't engage in direct combat with the enemy players whatsoever.

Speaking of, that'd be a great game mode for MOBAs too! Why isn't this happening?!

Make me think of these games. A game where you build pillars, try to dominate the map with them, and defend them from the enemy team to win.

Fantasy Earth Zero, prepare your graphic whoring eyes.
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e289-0pbaRE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e289-0pbaRE[/SPOILER-BOX]


A game where you have 3 pillars and two teams of 20+. Each try to take all three, kill two field bosses, and kill enemy players.

TERA, mind the music.
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMEpOUIzYv4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMEpOUIzYv4[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Agitated_AT]

I open the launcher every few days and wonder about what I'll do

I realize I'll do tacos to earn money to still fail to grind my steam knuckle to +10, after 16 failed 9->10 attempts.

No I think I'm okay hunting for Rathalos Carapaces right now.
aww yeaahh

[Zyrusticae]

Uh, yes, it is a MOBA.

The only possible scenario you could disagree is that you're getting hung up on semantics.

You are constantly killing NPC's in MOBA's. It's called farming. Effectively farming allows more of your NPC's to walk by without being killed, enabling you to kill towers. You rinse and repeat this simple strategy for 30-45 minutes until you are able to spawn more powerful NPC's in conjunction with the basic ones, which help you eventually overpower the opponents main towers and main base.

The only additional concept is that of players being added to the mix, and players naturally have the most influence on the direction of the game, that doesn't make the NPC's utterly useless, as both farming the opponents NPC's and the presence of your own is required to win. And to be fair, why would you want a PvPvE game mode that doesn't involve the actual players getting to fight? You're probably part of an extremely small minority of people that would care for such a thing.

What you've described is like, a MOBA in every sense of how you play a MOBA.Okay, no. Nononononono.

Have you ever played a competitive tower defense game? One where you defend constantly from enemies and where the better you do, the harder it gets for your enemy? That's what I'm talking about.

To put it another way, the more you kill, the more spawns against your enemy. In a MOBA, this doesn't happen unless you kill the enemy's spawners. In the scenario I'm talking about, this happens constantly, during the entire course of the match. And both sides are completely segregated so the primary element determining which side loses is how long they can survive against a protracted assault. In a tower defense game, you're keeping those enemy units from reaching your base. In the scenario I'm describing, you'd be defending yourself from those enemy units, rather than some other objective.

To put it another way, it's a survival mode where the difficulty is determined by how well a second team is doing. Your only objective is to survive and to keep the enemy from surviving by killing everything on your side faster than the other side. For every one enemy you kill, the opposing team has to kill two more. And when they kill those two, another four enemies shows up on your side. And so on. Obviously, eventually it would switch from escalating numbers to escalating tiers of enemies, until one side eventually crumbles.

In a MOBA, there are only two tiers - the regular tier, and the "supercreep" tier (with a "megacreep" tier when everything is dead, but at that point the game is over already), but the primary objective of the game is to defeat the opposing team by engaging them in direct combat, and then pushing into the enemy base using that window of opportunity. The scenario I'm describing involves no direct combat against the enemy team whatsoever. You attack the enemy by throwing more units at them, and you throw more units at them by destroying everything that's thrown at you. There is no downtime, and no pushing. You just fight.

So if a game mode like this were implemented in PSO2, you would have two teams being placed into two separate arenas, and you'd just keep on killing waves and waves and waves of enemies that just keep getting bigger. You go from fighting 8 Dagans to fighting a mix of Dagans, Krahda and Kartagot to fighting El Ardas mixed with Ga Wondas and Dicahdas to eventually fighting so many high-level enemies (including bosses) that it is actually impossible to survive, so your objective then becomes to survive just a bit longer than your enemy does. The more skilled team will win, but it is not a matter of beating them up and pushing into their base, it is a matter of killing and surviving better than your enemy does.

I should note that such a game mode would reward balanced builds considerably more than the usual PSO2 fare, since obviously you would eventually just need more defense in order to survive as the number of enemies coming at you becomes too much to deal with.

I really don't know how you could say that this is just "semantics" when it's a completely different style of play. A proper MOBA involves farming creeps while pressuring the enemy in the hopes of preventing them from doing the same, and then engaging in numerous team fights. A competitive survival scenario involves no farming and no direct engagement, just fighting and fighting some more to keep the other side under pressure while hopefully keeping your own team alive. I hope that makes sense.

[Gardios]

I think a better comparison would be... Puyo Puyo Fever. Except that puyo are enemies and that you send more enemies to the opposing team rather than trash.

[gigawuts]

Zyru: A bit unrelated, but if you like tower defense games with multiplayer components, check out Sanctum. It's a - get this - first person shooter tower defense coop game.

It is amazingly fun with a couple buds. I highly recommend it. In fact, the sequel just came out today, and while I haven't had time to try it out yet I can basically promise you that if it's anything like the first, it is quite fantastic. You can do all the standard tower defense stuff, but the same resources can be used to upgrade your guns. Your coop buddies (up to 4) can upgrade your towers and v.v., but you can only upgrade your own guns. A common strategy I used with one guy was he maxed out his sniper and slowgun, and I focused entirely on towers. If he had extra points we put our heads together on what to invest in.

There's the standard variety of enemies too, flying, ground-based, etc. Nice assortment of towers. I've gotten a good half dozen people to try it out, and they all adored it, so if you're into FPS games or TD games I bet you'll love it.

[Zipzo]

I really don't know how you could say that this is just "semantics" when it's a completely different style of play. A proper MOBA involves farming creeps while pressuring the enemy in the hopes of preventing them from doing the same, and then engaging in numerous team fights. A competitive survival scenario involves no farming and no direct engagement, just fighting and fighting some more to keep the other side under pressure while hopefully keeping your own team alive. I hope that makes sense.So like...a more boring MOBA? All I can really imagine here is League of Legends with players not being able to attack each other and the mobs are stronger as a trade-off. Is there a major difference between that and what you're describing? Sure you've fluffed out an extra mechanic of extra enemies being sent over as reward for your efficient killing...but I mean whether extra enemies get sent over or not, the faster killers generally pull ahead regardless based simply on normalized production rates of the NPC's.

I guess you could say that players not being able to attack one another turns a MOBA in to "not-a-MOBA", or that allowing individual players to kill one another makes a Tower Defense game "not-a-TD-game". Player killing becomes important late game (it's always important but obviously the beginning of a MOBA game is slow paced), but mob killing is generally the name of the game early on.

What I will agree with you on is that should there be PvP in PSO2, that it is most certainly suited to a type of PvEvP such as what we're discussing.

However when it's all said and done, conversely, I believe League of Legends is simply "Tower Defense w/ people killing each other over the towers". The two are so similar in the nature of the objective...that in conclusion I think it's somewhat obtuse to state that no such game exists for you to play in the MMO market...which is the original statement I was sort of getting at with my original post.

[UnLucky]

No, it's like a tower defense game, where you build your defenses against an ever escalating force.

LoL, HoN, DotA, don't have the player building up their base. They just run around with their heroes as their only input. It's more like a tower offense game.

[thinktank001]

I am actually not surprised about this at all (in fact, this was pointed out a loooong time ago), though what I am surprised about is that SEGA doesn't seem to be doing anything to really respond to these complaints considering how numerous and loud they are.



This is the cash shop model, and Sega can't change anything because this is how the business model influences the game.

I really don't understand why players were expecting something different?

[MetalDude]

It's the gameplay complaints that don't really have attachments to gacha shit. It's one thing to follow a business model because F2P etc etc., but not addressing core gameplay problems that don't have anything to do with it (like PA and technique balance, making TE and GU less mediocre) is nonsensical.

[Zipzo]

No, it's like a tower defense game, where you build your defenses against an ever escalating force.

LoL, HoN, DotA, don't have the player building up their base. They just run around with their heroes as their only input. It's more like a tower offense game.

Zyru said nothing about a resource management mechanic akin to RTS as you're describing in any of his posts. Also, one could argue that you technically *are* against an ever escalating force as you build your own defenses. The champions aren't static..your and your opponents' character levels up and the game is hugely weighted on choosing the right items for your character as you gain more money, of which can only be obtained by earning money, which you collect more of by...killing more.

[Zyrusticae]

So like...a more boring MOBA? All I can really imagine here is League of Legends with players not being able to attack each other and the mobs are stronger as a trade-off. Is there a major difference between that and what you're describing? Sure you've fluffed out an extra mechanic of extra enemies being sent over as reward for your efficient killing...but I mean whether extra enemies get sent over or not, the faster killers generally pull ahead regardless based simply on normalized production rates of the NPC's.

I guess you could say that players not being able to attack one another turns a MOBA in to "not-a-MOBA", or that allowing individual players to kill one another makes a Tower Defense game "not-a-TD-game". Player killing becomes important late game (it's always important but obviously the beginning of a MOBA game is slow paced), but mob killing is generally the name of the game early on.

What I will agree with you on is that should there be PvP in PSO2, that it is most certainly suited to a type of PvEvP such as what we're discussing.

However when it's all said and done, conversely, I believe League of Legends is simply "Tower Defense w/ people killing each other over the towers". The two are so similar in the nature of the objective...that in conclusion I think it's somewhat obtuse to state that no such game exists for you to play in the MMO market...which is the original statement I was sort of getting at with my original post.More boring my fucking ass! Have you ever played Mass Effect 3's multiplayer mode? It's pure survival for only 10 waves, yet it's some of the most intense shit you'll EVER play! You're constantly on edge fighting to survive against statistically long odds, where even a slight mistake can be extremely costly, and there's no PvP whatsoever!

PvP is a completely different animal. In a MOBA you are more concerned with being harassed out of lane and last-hitting than you are about simply killing everything that comes at you. In the scenario I am describing you are constantly fighting to survive against unending waves of enemies, not against player characters who gradually grow more powerful through levels and item statistic bonuses.

The objective is completely immaterial here. What matters is the moment-to-moment gameplay. In fact, a MOBA has absolutely fuck-all to do with what I'm talking about, as there is no last-hitting for items or XP, there is no fighting to gain lane dominance, and there sure as hell isn't any pushing into an enemy base to end the game. It's even weirder to me that you would say MOBAs are in any way related to tower defense games when the objective of a tower defense game is simply to survive against waves of enemies, and the destruction of towers has absolutely nothing to do with anything in many of these games (the objective is to stop them from reaching an objective, NOT to stop them from destroying your towers). Plus, y'know, the lack of heroes, which is kind of central to the gameplay of any MOBA.

If you want to get so reductionist, you could easily say that every multiplayer FPS ever made is completely the same thing because they generally have the same structure (deathmatch, conquest, etc.), but that completely ignores the nuances of how they play. Quake III does not play like Unreal Tournament which does not play like Call of Duty which does not play like Battlefield, even though they all share the same genre. The only possible way you can seriously say that LoL is "Tower Defense w/ people killing each other over the towers" is by completely ignoring all the details that actually make those games what they are, and by ignoring those you can make similarly inane statements about all of video games, which is absurd.

Back to the point, I am talking about a competitive survival mode. A survival mode. A MOBA has nothing to do with this! I'm just starting to get really irritated here because it seems like you're just latching onto this point for no reason whatsoever other than to be contrarian, when it really had nothing to do with what I was talking about in the first place. It's weird, man.

[Rien]

It seems if SEGA listens to anything from the player surveys other than supermass complaints that go around for ages, it's things about getting new costumes.

I asked for more cast/caseal parts.

From the coming updates, I think SEGA has completely passed it by.

[The Walrus]

This game has casts? I thought it just had Female Humans/Newmans with the occasional male

[Coatl]

It's a shame sega banned male casts from PSO2. They are nowhere to be found now! :(

[kamisama85]

Just for those who might want to have a better perspective of general reviews in Japan. If you can't read it, then you'll have to make use of your google translators.

http://web-empires.net/online/tail_review/tail_review.cgi?mode=rank_review

Here is a list of reviews on games in Japan in the above URL. The list goes by Game Name, Score, and then Number of Reviews.


Notable entries include:

PSO2
3.27 based off of 203 Reviews

PSU
3.01 based off of 91 Reviews

CABAL ONLINE
4.91 based off of 182 Reviews

Ragnarok Online
3.00 based off of 648 Reviews

TERA
3.88 based off of 191 Reviews

Mabinogi
5.22 based off of 408 Reviews

Mabinogi HEROES
5.52 based off of 69 Reviews

World of Warcraft
6.57 based off 203 Reviews

EVE Online
6.38 based off 120 Reviews

Another note: On more sites (in Japan) with lots of reviews on PSO2 and the likes (ones with generally lots of bad reviews), the demographics were sometimes listed. Somewhere of upwards of 50% of the reviewing sample would be in the 30's age group. Might be an interesting thing to think about.

The following games were scored on another site. You can look it up on your own as well.

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
Score: 93 based on 21 Reviews
http://www.4gamer.net/games/017/G001779/

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Score: 94 based on 43 Reviews
http://www.4gamer.net/games/125/G012566/

Diablo 3
Score: 66 based on 69 Reviews
http://www.4gamer.net/games/008/G000817/

Phantasy Star Online 2
Score: 67 based on 313 Reviews
http://www.4gamer.net/games/120/G012075/20120131062/

Tower of Aion
Score: 69 based on 382 Reviews
http://www.4gamer.net/games/030/G003061/20130502065/


Was at Sympathy 2013 in March; tickets sold out. Their most recent NicoNico had over 171,000 active viewers. Merchandise related to the game has been sold out numerous times over the last few months on SEGA's site. They must all be so burnt out and bitter about this game that they still go to these things and spend lots of money, right?

As reference or for those that cannot read the JPN reviews for PSO2, most of the complaints (from Japanese Players) stem from frustration around UPGRADING probability and story quality. Majority of reviews would note that the first 50-200 hours of the game was fun for them. After that was when they started to feel the burn. Unanimously between all positive and negative voters, the character customization and creation was praised all round.

And for fun, search harder and you will find a lot of boards or postings (such as on 2ch) about attitude towards English players (especially on Ship 2). Fun reading material for those of you who like that sort of stuff :)


EDIT:
Not to be misinterpreted as trying to add more support to the OP's main point, I listed out a number of reviews from multiple sites covering a lot of games many western players have engaged in at one point prior to or after PSO2. Most Japanese score pretty critically on just about any MMO for mostly all the same reasons. That being said, the low score given to PSO2 should not be interpreted as being poor beyond poor. Simply put, there are not many games getting A-Grade scores within Japan to begin with. Even games which cater more to the domestic audience in Japan suffer low scores at review sites. In actuality many of those games perform pretty well both domestically and globally. Keep in mind, there may be some 500-1000 reviews which are negative, but it does not speak for the group of 100-200K active players (maybe more) that are playing the game. If it were truly a game that was 3/10 rating, I imagine people are not so helpless to continue playing it. Demographics are still pretty key in the makeup of these reviews. With such a large portion of the reviews being done by 30+ individuals, you have to keep in mind these are people who are working, have life commitments, possibly family and other things which require lots of attention so they may be extra critical about something such as a game because it is an investment of time (and maybe even money if they spend on AC). So it is likely these individuals may give a harsher or more critical review of the game than those in younger age brackets.

All things aside, I'm a heavy supporter of this game since I love it inside out given its plus and minus points.

[Cyclon]

Thank you. 'dis deserved a thank you to me. If no one else does it I will. Thank you.

Still, nobody has anything to say about this?

[Gardios]

And for fun, search harder and you will find a lot of boards or postings (such as on 2ch) about attitude towards English players (especially on Ship 2). Fun reading material for those of you who like that sort of stuff :)

I don't think 2ch is a good indicator as to what JP players think of us. :V

[Z-0]

Was at Sympathy 2013 in March; tickets sold out. Their most recent NicoNico had over 171,000 active viewers. Merchandise related to the game has been sold out numerous times over the last few months on SEGA's site. They must all be so burnt out and bitter about this game that they still go to these things and spend lots of money, right?
This is the thing.

This doesn't point to the game's quality at all. Number of active players, number of merchandise sold, musical performance quality, etc... doesn't point to how good the game is actually is, more how popular it is for whatever reason.

I've been playing this game since release, and I've felt the burn for a very long time, but I don't want to drop PSO2 because I can SEE it's potential, and I don't particularly want to start on another game, considering that I might not even be playing games often come October.

The majority of players playing this game now were past Phantasy Star Online / Universe fans, and PSO2 is something they are familiar with and enjoy to a certain extent. It's a series they want to follow, but the majority of people I know (and that they know, also), are getting further disappointed with the game as time goes on, as the focus seems to be how gacha-orientated the game is, with the constant aesthetic updates, which people seem to be eating up immediately because they gotta dress up their waifus instead of actually playing the game.

The lesson to learn here is that a game's popularity or success does not point to overall quality at all. A friend of mine likens this game to League of Legends, because it's an overpopulated game, but has too many flaws (well, so he says, I can't say for myself) that it's just not fun anymore. PSO2 is heading the same way. At this point, I'm hoping for Episode 2 for SEGA to get their shit straight, otherwise I'm sure many players will be leaving.

[BIG OLAF]

PSO2 only got one more point than Diablo 3 on 4gamer? That's really not that great at all.

[otaku998]

Consider how Diablo 3 was pretty hyped about, one more point than that is pretty good :c

[BIG OLAF]

Right, but I'm going by the fact that Diablo 3 was/is complete shit. PSO2 only got one more point than complete shit on 4gamer. That's...not good.

[Arialle]

i swear i loved this game....nvm the graphics the gameplay was so interesting and unique....its like the medival and solo char version of shattered galaxy and its like 90% just fighting against other players in a 50v50 conquering lands

it was so dope hafing like 30 of my guildmates charging in to enemy lines and shouting FOR CESEDRIA AND LOLI QUEEN TIVARECE or placing our castle next to enemy's and have a slaughterfest right near spawn rather than claiming lands

but gamepotusa had to be stupid and i have no idea why S.E gave them liscense to host it and it closed down eventually.....and i cant get to play JP servers....

the world of MMOs needs more games FEZ / PSO2....instance based or party based games where solo kills you and u need to party to win....not the typical OH IM LEVEL 1 i shall head out of this noob town and normal attack a cute mob like a poring and level up...oh hay im level 2 i can learn this heavy attack skill and i got a quest to talk to this NPC / collect drops....*repeat till max level* ( experience from RO2 and before )

other games like S4 league / Fiesta / good old shattered galaxy are some examples as far i can remember that you need teamwork just to play the game properly...well at mid levels....

its a multiplayer FFS....why make a damm online MMOs game where u can solo 90% of the time (curses most gaming companies)

*biased and personal opinion and probably has not much relation to the thread but im still just gonna post it anyways*


Make me think of these games. A game where you build pillars, try to dominate the map with them, and defend them from the enemy team to win.

Fantasy Earth Zero, prepare your graphic whoring eyes.
[SPOILER-BOX]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e289-0pbaRE[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Kilich]

Well, unlike D3, which was hopeless since before release, PSO2 still has both good core mechanics and a chance that it'll improve, since Sega seems to listen to customers.

[gigawuts]

The listening-to-customers thing is hit and miss.

What it really seems like is they wait for customers to ask for something they wanted to do or expected to need to do anyway, so they get to look good when they do it. If nobody asks for anything to change, then that's just less work to do.

If they were really listening to customers we'd have MUCH better class balance by now.

[Mike]

PSO2 only got one more point than Diablo 3 on 4gamer? That's really not that great at all.
Keep in mind that 4gamer fudges the overall reader review numbers to a high non-average score. The actual average for PSO2 is probably closer to the 50 - 55 range.

[Kilich]

There's hope that they did listen to balance and variety complaints, but pushed it way back and fragmented because
1)They didn't figure out a way to charge for it yet
2)Its reserved as content for when the development is paused so they could focus on other things, like other platforms, offline events, korean/chinese release and such.

[gigawuts]

That's a really good point, they would definitely want to stagger some content for dry spells. Although, I think that's more fitting for things like quests using pre-existing assets myself (something like AQ's were), but they might disagree. Class balance seems more urgent to me, but then again that depends on your approach to content creation. Quests may be something they want to push out asap to keep players going.

[UnLucky]

Listening to customers can be bad too, like how time attacks are now so lax the timer is just for show

[Coatl]

Well regarding TA nerfs I'm glad they made it so that when you press buttons now they have a timer. Was super annoying in lilipa TA when someone accidentally (or on purpose idk) stepped on one button and got off it. Would ruin the whole run for the ENTIRE party. That needed to be fixed/nerfed. :I

[Tenlade]

Listening to customers can be bad too, like how time attacks are now so lax the timer is just for show

The times were always just for show, now they're just scaled so a single person can do them and still get an S.

[Coatl]

It's scaled so that casual players can spend 30 minutes in one TA and still get their 100k from klotho.

[AgemFrostMage]

Right, but I'm going by the fact that Diablo 3 was/is complete shit. PSO2 only got one more point than complete shit on 4gamer. That's...not good.

People are entitled their opinions, not liking something is okay. However, I only play free so far and I like it and only real problem is little storage and repeating the same dungeons too many times, but storage is solved from premium. On the dungeon thing I completed Hans' quest to defeat 4 bosses for envoy of Hell, then I accept a daily that wants me to fight 5 more times with A rank or better! If you skip to the boss as fast as possible and kill it you wont get a credit either =(

[Coatl]

Well you need A rank, so if you kill like 15-20 mobs along the way you should be fine.

[AgemFrostMage]

Well you need A rank, so if you kill like 15-20 mobs along the way you should be fine.

I have 2 credits so far, so I killed the boss six times today. Now I took a break and came here. I must also kill 30 little dragons and collect from dinian monsters, but those I can do when I do hard katagarot speed quest.

I use wired lances and sub level 32 force =) Multiverse and wired lances by themselves are cheating, but together they are unstoppable =) I will soon be a 30 hunter then I level the force to 40 and techer to 30 to switch it up.

[kamisama85]

Right, but I'm going by the fact that Diablo 3 was/is complete shit. PSO2 only got one more point than complete shit on 4gamer. That's...not good.

Keep in mind, I listed the number of REVIEWS along with the score for a reason.

Diablo 3 may have gotten a 66 but its based on 69 total user reviews.

PSO2 MAINTAINS a 67 after 313 total user reviews.

PSO2 has a much STRONGER average because it has nearly 5x more review volume. More reviews can damage a score much more but the fact that it is holding at 67 after that many reviews is something to be happy about (for those in support of PSO2).

To the person who pointed out the strength of merchandise sales and participation in events such as the concert, you are right to say that a portion of that is certainly fan driven.

But, what I am trying to point out is that despite what we interpret from the "NUMBER" score, most games which usually rate an average B-Grade in the USA skims around what we see as an F-Grade over in Japan. That being said, just because it got a 67 doesn't mean its a total flop failure. Japan simply sets their bar of excellence exslusively for games which really wow them in all areas. All other games get "defaulted" to a 60-70 rating. (Famitsu ratings don't count.)

[gravityvx]

You could probably find majority of sites scoring Diablo 3 very, very low. Especially user reviews. PSO 2 is kind of bad, but no where on Diablo 3's level. Of all games I'd consider a complete flop, it would be Diablo 3, PSO 2 not so much.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii

If eight thousand people are lying, I'm not even sure what to say.

[gigawuts]

67: a new thing to be proud of

i didn't want that 90 anyway

[UnLucky]

8.7/10 very average do not recommend

[NoiseHERO]

Video games suck, why do we play this shiit all day?

I'm bored I'ma go play some PSO2. <_<

[UnLucky]

somehow real life ends up less enjoyable and run by even scummier people

it also has PSO2

[Zyrusticae]

8.7/10 very average do not recommend
Hahaha, exactly.

These review scales are ridiculous. They can vary tremendously between publications and users (some may consider "5" to be the average, others consider "7" to be average, and still others consider "9" to be average (lolwut)). They are absolute, complete bullshit.

Way better to just look at what people are saying than to take scores at face value.

[gigawuts]

I went outside earlier. The graphics were horrible, I mean there wasn't even any bloom or motion blur to make it look realistic.

[kamisama85]

I went outside earlier. The graphics were horrible, I mean there wasn't even any bloom or motion blur to make it look realistic.

...

+1

[thematesV2]

I went outside earlier. The graphics were horrible, I mean there wasn't even any bloom or motion blur to make it look realistic.

-1

fail, only because bloom and motion blur in 3-d simulations are really only attempting to recreate the visual experience that exists in real life.

bloom, motion blur, DOF and the like are not only ultra subtle in real life, but they exist at different levels based on time, the health of the player(the health of brain or eyes) and they are so hard wired into our understanding of the world, that they don't stand out, unlike the piss-poor emulations that modern video games provide.

estimated low end fps threshold for human eye: 500 fps

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm

full disclosure: went to school for animation, work in media production, and have used the oculus rift.

(don't know if I'm going to keep posting 'full disclosures', they make me sound kind of like an ass. haha)

[gigawuts]

So does saying "fail" and explaining why an obvious cynical joke is faulty.

Because cynical jokes are known for being factually correct and never in any way shape or form ironic or meta.

I know why that shit's in games. I also know it's WAY overdone in games and only actually looks good and unobtrusive in screenshots. When your entire fucking screen is covered in sunbeams, bloom, and motion blur, that shit is fugly and horrifically un-"realistic."

[thematesV2]

Yea.


I figured you were joking.
and I never troll, so I figured once and a while would be alright.
and I wanted to even out the +1.

[gigawuts]

The bit about human eye FPS was cool though, I'd heard 30, 60, and 24-25 thrown around, but also heard that the human eye is capable of perceiving much higher rates since it's not quite as cut and dry as straight FPS. Always cool to hear about stuff from people who are very read up on the subject.

[Zyrusticae]

It's worth noting that the human eye really doesn't see in discrete "frames" per se, but rather in intervals of time. For example, when a movement is too fast to be seen clearly, that is because the "update speed" of your eyes/brain is not fast enough to keep that movement in perfect clarity, hence motion blur.

Motion blur is necessary as a post-process in video games because they are rendered in discrete frames of animation. The difference between one frame and the next can be enormous in terms of distance covered - for example, a weapon that's swinging could be on one side of the screen in one frame and on the opposite side of the screen in the next. Obviously, this means that there is A LOT of missing information between those two frames, and the motion blur added on top is to help recover that information. Weapon trails in particular are a very cheap alternative to actual motion blur, hence why they're used in every action game ever made.

Here's a site that helps to illustrate this problem: http://frames-per-second.appspot.com/
Try setting a low frame rate with no motion blur, and see just how much information is missing between frames. Then add the motion blur and you can get an idea of just why it's so necessary for games to go overboard on this shit (especially since many of them are now sitting in the 20-30 FPS range on consoles).

[kamisama85]

67: a new thing to be proud of

i didn't want that 90 anyway


8.7/10 very average do not recommend

Love these, all in good fun.

But fun and games (and differences) aside, I am just trying to point out on the OP's statement that Japan's rating does not reflect or speak for the majority playing domestically or those abroad playing it. People genuinely find the game fun no matter what despite the flaws it may have, some just feel stronger about it while others enjoy varying elements enough to overlook what is bad.

If we really wanted to say that "Japan is saying all the -same stuff- as us", you should probably compare in closer detail, not just say RARE DROP, STORY, (CONCRETE) CONTENT, be specific maybe? I'm sure concrete content means different things to differ people, just as many of you pointed out reviews not speaking for the opinions of others. Maybe discuss some of those ideas? Would be nice.

Also, metacritic is a culmination and averaging of all reviews from all notable sites which put out reviews.

[gigawuts]

It's worth noting that the human eye really doesn't see in discrete "frames" per se, but rather in intervals of time. For example, when a movement is too fast to be seen clearly, that is because the "update speed" of your eyes/brain is not fast enough to keep that movement in perfect clarity, hence motion blur.

Motion blur is necessary as a post-process in video games because they are rendered in discrete frames of animation. The difference between one frame and the next can be enormous in terms of distance covered - for example, a weapon that's swinging could be on one side of the screen in one frame and on the opposite side of the screen in the next. Obviously, this means that there is A LOT of missing information between those two frames, and the motion blur added on top is to help recover that information. Weapon trails in particular are a very cheap alternative to actual motion blur, hence why they're used in every action game ever made.

Here's a site that helps to illustrate this problem: http://frames-per-second.appspot.com/
Try setting a low frame rate with no motion blur, and see just how much information is missing between frames. Then add the motion blur and you can get an idea of just why it's so necessary for games to go overboard on this shit (especially since many of them are now sitting in the 20-30 FPS range on consoles).

Sure, I get the need to partially fill in the blanks at low framerates (such as is done with your standard cinema framerates), but if I'm rolling with 60 FPS I have minimal loss of information, and motion blur winds up being a purely cosmetic difference that can even obstruct information and make it difficult to determine exactly what's where.

[Link1275]

The bit about human eye FPS was cool though, I'd heard 30, 60, and 24-25 thrown around, but also heard that the human eye is capable of perceiving much higher rates since it's not quite as cut and dry as straight FPS. Always cool to hear about stuff from people who are very read up on the subject.


It's worth noting that the human eye really doesn't see in discrete "frames" per se, but rather in intervals of time. For example, when a movement is too fast to be seen clearly, that is because the "update speed" of your eyes/brain is not fast enough to keep that movement in perfect clarity, hence motion blur.

Motion blur is necessary as a post-process in video games because they are rendered in discrete frames of animation. The difference between one frame and the next can be enormous in terms of distance covered - for example, a weapon that's swinging could be on one side of the screen in one frame and on the opposite side of the screen in the next. Obviously, this means that there is A LOT of missing information between those two frames, and the motion blur added on top is to help recover that information. Weapon trails in particular are a very cheap alternative to actual motion blur, hence why they're used in every action game ever made.

Here's a site that helps to illustrate this problem: http://frames-per-second.appspot.com/
Try setting a low frame rate with no motion blur, and see just how much information is missing between frames. Then add the motion blur and you can get an idea of just why it's so necessary for games to go overboard on this shit (especially since many of them are now sitting in the 20-30 FPS range on consoles).


Sure, I get the need to partially fill in the blanks at low framerates (such as is done with your standard cinema framerates), but if I'm rolling with 60 FPS I have minimal loss of information, and motion blur winds up being a purely cosmetic difference that can even obstruct information and make it difficult to determine exactly what's where.

The US Air Force has actually conducted tests on how fast the human eye can pick up on things. They flashed an image of one of their jets for about one 200th of a second and the pilots all saw it and could see exactly what it was, but it was moving so fast it was just an after image. Which is why I'd say that 60 is probably about the best to leave your games at so that it's neither too high or too low.

However an object can move too fast for the human eye to see it(move your hand across your line of vision in a sudden and abrupt motion as fast as you can). By 500 if you're seeing anything it's still moving so fast that you're losing visual information.

[Zyrusticae]

Sure, I get the need to partially fill in the blanks at low framerates (such as is done with your standard cinema framerates), but if I'm rolling with 60 FPS I have minimal loss of information, and motion blur winds up being a purely cosmetic difference that can even obstruct information and make it difficult to determine exactly what's where.
Depends on how it's done, really.

Per-object motion blur is still useful even at 60 FPS for extremely fast movements or movements that cross large sections of the screen very quickly (which are also extremely fast, heh). Look at the site I linked to and set one of the balls to 60 FPS, no motion blur, at 2000 px/s. You'll see a very obvious spacing between frames, instead of a continuous motion. Turn the motion blur back on and that spacing is no longer there, and the motion becomes more obvious.

Motion blur is not only useful for "filling in" that information, but also for showing you the velocity of a moving object at a glance. If you look at a still image, with one with a slow shutter speed and another at a very fast one, the fast shutter shows you absolutely no information about what movement was occurring within that frame. The slower one, meanwhile, will show you, immediately, what was actually happening within that span of time. However, the faster one is clearer and thus fast shutters tend to be the norm among photographers who aren't aiming to capture movement.

At any rate, there's good reasons why the CryEngine games let you choose how motion motion blur you want, and all games would do well to follow their example. PSO2, unfortunately, only has an on/off switch, and not only that, but the motion blur itself is lower-quality/lower-precision than the CryEngine implementation. Bit of a shame, that.

...Bloom, meanwhile, tends to be horribly overdone, and in many games you are actually better off simply disabling it because it's so excessive. I really don't understand why devs do that junk (especially when it tends to obscure otherwise great assets).

[UnLucky]

I want bald heads to piercingly gleam, open flames blinding from any angle, and fullscreen white flashes any time a new light source is introduced nearby

And the player should loathe to rotate the camera lest the picture turn to an indistinguishable nauseating mess

[gigawuts]

Depends on how it's done, really.

Per-object motion blur is still useful even at 60 FPS for extremely fast movements or movements that cross large sections of the screen very quickly (which are also extremely fast, heh). Look at the site I linked to and set one of the balls to 60 FPS, no motion blur, at 2000 px/s. You'll see a very obvious spacing between frames, instead of a continuous motion. Turn the motion blur back on and that spacing is no longer there, and the motion becomes more obvious.

Motion blur is not only useful for "filling in" that information, but also for showing you the velocity of a moving object at a glance. If you look at a still image, with one with a slow shutter speed and another at a very fast one, the fast shutter shows you absolutely no information about what movement was occurring within that frame. The slower one, meanwhile, will show you, immediately, what was actually happening within that span of time. However, the faster one is clearer and thus fast shutters tend to be the norm among photographers who aren't aiming to capture movement.

At any rate, there's good reasons why the CryEngine games let you choose how motion motion blur you want, and all games would do well to follow their example. PSO2, unfortunately, only has an on/off switch, and not only that, but the motion blur itself is lower-quality/lower-precision than the CryEngine implementation. Bit of a shame, that.

...Bloom, meanwhile, tends to be horribly overdone, and in many games you are actually better off simply disabling it because it's so excessive. I really don't understand why devs do that junk (especially when it tends to obscure otherwise great assets).

Yeah, Cryengine is pretty kickass. My rig isn't exactly up to modern standards, so I can't run a lot of modern games at low settings. But it's not bad, either. I can run Crysis 1 at max settings across the board, every single thing maxed out, and it's smooth as silk. Pretty stunningly gorgeous, too. I cannot run Guild Wars 2 decently at all. Not even when nobody but me is on the screen.

Which drives me bonkers. All it takes is good optimization (Which, granted, is easier to say than actually do). Relying on your customers brute forcing your laziness with hardware until it works is such a bad strategy in this economy, because a lot of customers will be left behind simply for having a bad year.

But this is about 3 tiers of derailing here, so...oops.

(Also, if you were interested in my suggestion to check out Sanctum, I'm told Sanctum 2 is very different from the first in that it places much more emphasis on being a shooter with towers as opposed to a tower defense game with some first person guns. The original is still a fantastic TD game with FPS elements, however).

[DreXxiN]

I don't remember a source i can cite this from, so I can understand if it is taken with a grain of salt, but I've heard the registration of FPS for human vision is largely based on your status.

In a more relaxed state, 40-60 might be the maximum you notice, but in a state of life or death panic where adrenaline is rushing, you might be able to view up to over 1000 FPS. I think this is why a lot of Counter-Strike pros enjoy 120hz monitors so they can see beyond the refresh rate when things get intense.

However, there's the odd bunch who mention "you can't even notice more than 30 FPS" which is just insane. Are some people really that limited or are they trolling? 30 FPS from 60 FPS is night and day for me.

[~Aya~]

I don't remember a source i can cite this from, so I can understand if it is taken with a grain of salt, but I've heard the registration of FPS for human vision is largely based on your status.

In a more relaxed state, 40-60 might be the maximum you notice, but in a state of life or death panic where adrenaline is rushing, you might be able to view up to over 1000 FPS. I think this is why a lot of Counter-Strike pros enjoy 120hz monitors so they can see beyond the refresh rate when things get intense.

However, there's the odd bunch who mention "you can't even notice more than 30 FPS" which is just insane. Are some people really that limited or are they trolling? 30 FPS from 60 FPS is night and day for me.


uh.. I see difference between 30-60 and 60-90.... that 30 FPS thing as you mention must be false...

[DreXxiN]

uh.. I see difference between 30-60 and 60-90.... that 30 FPS thing as you mention must be false...

I assume it is false, but I'm wondering if there's limitations with some people -- seriously. Some people seemed so convinced that it was true that it felt like non-trolling.

[Bellion]

This may be relevant to the FPS discussion: http://boallen.com/fps-compare.html

[~Aya~]

This may be relevant to the FPS discussion: http://boallen.com/fps-compare.html


looked at the 90-120 and can tell difference on that baseball one.. changing pixels and all. it just gets harder to tell is all

[Zyrusticae]

I assume it is false, but I'm wondering if there's limitations with some people -- seriously. Some people seemed so convinced that it was true that it felt like non-trolling.
That's just pure ignorance.

They don't know or understand the amount of information lost at such a low framerate, and most of the people saying such things have NOT actually compared the difference between 30 and 60 FPS in a controlled setting (or may never have even seen 60 FPS footage in their lives and are basically making inferences about things they have no experience with). Many of these people are simply parroting shit they've heard in the past unthinkingly, which is unsurprising as that's something human beings tend to do even as adults (yeah, they're pretty stupid, humans, y'know?).

The issue of frame rate is a very complex one, far more than it seems on the surface. It's too oversimplifying to speak of things in terms of what you can "see" or "notice" in discrete frames per second.

looked at the 90-120 and can tell difference on that baseball one.. changing pixels and all. it just gets harder to tell is all
WAIT. STOP.

Do you have a 120Hz monitor? If not, STOP AT 60 FPS. You cannot notice a difference between 60 and 90 unless your monitor is actually capable of rendering more than 60 frames per second. If you have a 60Hz monitor and you "notice" a difference between 60 and 90 that is entirely a placebo.