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View Full Version : Do PSO2 maps feel small/lame to anyone else?



Jim
Jul 21, 2013, 11:38 AM
I've had a lot of gripes about the maps in the game feeling small compared to PSO1. I wasn't really sure if they were, but the exploration was completely unsatisfying.

The other day, I changed my mini map to the zoomed-in view so I didn't always know exactly where to go all the time. Then I bound the "Area Map" to R3 on my controller so I could check it if I needed it and moved the camera as low to the ground as it would go to get less of a bird's-eye perspective.

Before I did this, I was playing with my eyes glued to the map to find my way, while watching my actual character and the scenery out of the corner of my eye. With a restricted map and a more down-to-earth camera, the scenery really popped. Combat felt more fresh, and the maps felt much larger. (though still a little too basic and grid-like)

Anyone else have an experience like that?

Z-0
Jul 21, 2013, 11:41 AM
I think they feel too big.

Cyron Tanryoku
Jul 21, 2013, 11:42 AM
it's not that they're small
it's that it's a lot of lines splitting everywhere and overly complicated and RNG

Makes it boring

BIG OLAF
Jul 21, 2013, 11:43 AM
I dislike the random map generator most times. Sometimes they're too big, and sometimes they're too small. I prefer the styles from PSO and PSU where the path was mostly linear, but with extra places to explore along the way.

Sayara
Jul 21, 2013, 11:43 AM
When i have a map that i pay passes for (AQ) and it literally makes an L i get disappointed.

but otherwise, they're fine.

Jim
Jul 21, 2013, 11:44 AM
I think they feel too big.

They may be bigger than PSO1 for all I know, I just didn't like how routine they started feeling after a while.

It's interesting that you say that though. Do you feel they're too big as in they take too long, or that the stuff to do in them isn't densely packed enough?

gigawuts
Jul 21, 2013, 11:45 AM
I like long forks that end in actual good codes, thus making the run take up time with engaging content. If it's just a bunch of code collects it doesn't matter how enormous the map is, it feels way too small.

Z-0
Jul 21, 2013, 11:46 AM
It's mostly a problem with the action being too far spread out, and happening too quickly for it to be satisfying. I feel like I spend more time running around in this game than killing things, since only one spawn can happen in each block, and the blocks aren't exactly tiny.

NoiseHERO
Jul 21, 2013, 11:49 AM
I think they lack the substance they tried to cover up with weather and the lazy RNG mold squares rearrangement.

Like people complained about PSU being linear and repetative, and even PSO I hated how you just kept going back to the same map, but at least it was actually... a place. but PSO2 does the worst job.

I remember thinking the level designs in PSO2 were vast and endless and interesting, up until the point where I started paying attention to the mini map and suddenly the entire level design looked naked and it wasn't impressive.

Shirai
Jul 21, 2013, 11:49 AM
I think they're missing doors/gates.

Sayara
Jul 21, 2013, 11:56 AM
I think they're missing doors/gates.

Having to kill 4 enemies to open a gate, ala PSU was a very irritating excuse for when the areas looked so open (as many of PSO2's do.) In a fortress/closed in area type thing I'd be okay with it.

Furthermore
CODE ELIMINATION is the same tihng as this anyway

Jim
Jul 21, 2013, 11:57 AM
I think they're missing doors/gates.

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. That really does change the feel a lot. I agree with everyone who said the RNG for the level generation is pretty uninspiring, but doors would have really helped tie things together.

I mean, the landscape in PSO1 didn't change much, if at all, between runs. Which makes it kind of funny that the way it uses small rooms separated by doors begs for procedural generation.

This has my head spinning now... PSO2 would be SO much better with doors...


Having to kill 4 enemies to open a gate, ala PSU was a very irritating excuse for when the areas looked so open (as many of PSO2's do.) In a fortress/closed in area type thing I'd be okay with it.

Furthermore
CODE ELIMINATION is the same tihng as this anyway

I don't know, I think Shirai makes a good point here. Not only were doors a huge part of the scenery of every map in the first game, they really did help focus the gameplay.

PSO2 feels more like window shopping. You run through, and if you see something that's worth stopping for, you stop; otherwise, you shrug and keep on running. In PSO1, you were obligated to fight when things appeared. Having to "earn" the next room made what you were doing matter just a little bit more. I think that, for me, that's what's really missing from the maps now.

Sayara
Jul 21, 2013, 12:14 PM
I do agree, there is a need for different door type objectives to get through maps. I don't however want to see it just be a simple excursion of kill 6 enemies open the door /EVERYWHERE/

I've been pretty jaded by PSU's door lock type situations quite a bit..
On the opposite prospective, lock behind you til you kill a room ala Zelda would be interesting. Like a trap situation. (Fungi excluded)

blace
Jul 21, 2013, 12:18 PM
I do agree, there is a need for different door type objectives to get through maps. I don't however want to see it just be a simple excursion of kill 6 enemies open the door /EVERYWHERE/

Or the massive backtracking needed to collect keys to open a door.

The maps feel large when it requires you to backtrack or needs you to cover the opposite end of the map for a key.


I've been pretty jaded by PSU's door lock type situations quite a bit..
On the opposite prospective, lock behind you til you kill a room ala Zelda would be interesting. Like a trap situation. (Fungi excluded)
Code: Rescue feels a bit like it already, though it would be a nice twist if you ran into a dead end to have it sealed and flooded with mobs.

Cyron Tanryoku
Jul 21, 2013, 12:19 PM
I hate elimination and collect greatly

yoshiblue
Jul 21, 2013, 12:37 PM
I actually like the arenas that form in the floating continent. I just wish it made more sense.

Jazneo
Jul 21, 2013, 01:21 PM
I dislike the random map generator most times. Sometimes they're too big, and sometimes they're too small. I prefer the styles from PSO and PSU where the path was mostly linear, but with extra places to explore along the way.

that boring. i like random map generator

blace
Jul 21, 2013, 01:23 PM
So I was just in a Forest MPA. The second area was just a giant L.

Jim
Jul 21, 2013, 01:28 PM
I do agree, there is a need for different door type objectives to get through maps. I don't however want to see it just be a simple excursion of kill 6 enemies open the door /EVERYWHERE/

I've been pretty jaded by PSU's door lock type situations quite a bit..
On the opposite prospective, lock behind you til you kill a room ala Zelda would be interesting. Like a trap situation. (Fungi excluded)

Yeah, now that you mention it, PSU's system was pretty annoying. I didn't play a lot of it because I didn't have internet in my room when it came out, and Waber was pretty insufferable, but I remember the keys.

I much prefer the "life force door" system from PSO1 to scavenging for a stupid key. I think your trap scenario has potential as well.


I hate elimination and collect greatly

Yeah, elimination makes no sense without the door system, and collect feels like PSU with eight keys instead of one.

Z-0
Jul 21, 2013, 01:29 PM
Elimination is annoying not because you have to kill stuff to get going, but because it blocks you off as you're trying to pass it, rather than stumbling across enemies and having to kill them to open the door ahead. Plus shit spawns slowly...

jooozek
Jul 21, 2013, 01:32 PM
yeah, the maps are too large and the enemy spawns are drip feed, you spend more time running around than on killing enemies :-?

pikachief
Jul 21, 2013, 01:35 PM
I'm missing the feeling of exploration and familiarity with these maps. There's no exploration because the RNG makes them all just a bunch of similar looking, differently shaped rooms, and I can't find myself familiar with them because although I recognize certain areas, there's just nothing special about that area.

I like it when certain areas are catered for you to fight certain things. Just feels better to me. I guess I'd rather just have a person create a level flow of thought out spawns and rooms, rather than a computer do it randomly.

Jim
Jul 21, 2013, 01:41 PM
I'm missing the feeling of exploration and familiarity with these maps. There's no exploration because the RNG makes them all just a bunch of similar looking, differently shaped rooms, and I can't find myself familiar with them because although I recognize certain areas, there's just nothing special about that area.

I like it when certain areas are catered for you to fight certain things. Just feels better to me. I guess I'd rather just have a person create a level flow of thought out spawns and rooms, rather than a computer do it randomly.

Yeah, there is nothing instantly recognizable in any of these maps. Even if they made just a few landmarks that had some kind of flavor and stuck them in the RNG maps, it would help. Doors' benefits would stack on top of this too, since they would sort of help cloak the map's RNG nature and make you less likely to think things like "I don't remember seeing this landmark in the background of that one."

EDIT: Oh and yes, a community map maker would be splendid.

strikerhunter
Jul 21, 2013, 01:44 PM
I dislike the random map generator most times. Sometimes they're too big, and sometimes they're too small. I prefer the styles from PSO and PSU where the path was mostly linear, but with extra places to explore along the way.

Basically what BIG OLAF said. Sometimes it's too big, sometimes it's too small. Examples would be like: Boss rushing and getting ridiculously huge maze sized maps -or- Farming AQs and getting very small strait-away or L maps.

The fact that TAs don't use a random map generator leads to me questioning Sega this: "Why not just make a new mission type that has a fixed map and spawns?" They already did it for TAs, hell why not just do it for every single area or something similar.

Although it is true that I like the random map generator to an extent to keep things from being repetitive, seeing the same features over and over again is a bland. Would like to see special features within random map generators to differentiate maps and areas (seriously all maps are just the same but reskinned with the exception of ruin's pillars and the new map) , like climbable tree for forest, large steep slope for tundra, an actual volcano for caves, etc. Also not to mention adding different scenery of the same area would help add more taste to random maps as well. An example would be like add more trees to forest to get that forest feeling (honestly it feels like we are just visiting the each of one rather than inside one).




EDIT: Oh and yes, a community map maker would be splendid.

This would be lovely but I doubt it would happen.

yoshiblue
Jul 21, 2013, 01:48 PM
Watch it become a premium My Room feature instead.

Valimer
Jul 21, 2013, 01:49 PM
Yes, the level design is lacking severely. You know, the randomly generated paths would be OK if more of the tiles were actually interesting and varied more.

The painful part is knowing it will never change. It will be this way forever. They will keep adding new areas for a change of scenery but the actual design of the maps will stay the same forever.

Jim
Jul 21, 2013, 01:57 PM
Yes, the level design is lacking severely. You know, the randomly generated paths would be OK if more of the tiles were actually interesting and varied more.

The painful part is knowing it will never change. It will be this way forever. They will keep adding new areas for a change of scenery but the actual design of the maps will stay the same forever.

There's still hope for better maps in the future. Sanctum is a step in the right direction. Lots of doors there you have to kill stuff to unlock. If they had just gone with something besides that ugly cube theme, it would have been a lot better though.

SilkaN
Jul 21, 2013, 02:21 PM
Anything is better than PSO1's dark rooms.
But despite those rooms, I like PSO1 areas more. It felt more like an accomplishment when you were slightly underleveled and completed areas with 3 zones like cave or ruins.

Cyclon
Jul 21, 2013, 02:47 PM
As it stands, of course PSO's maps will seem better to us, because there was this fantastic first time where you discovered the area, with a design thought for a player to complete(not to mention a boss that's likely to kick your ass but that's another issue); that just doesn't exist in PSO2.

Really though, after the 500th run through, it does even up quite a bit. There may be a reason most of us remember PSO 1 more fondly while we may actually have played PSO 2 more at this point.

Now I'm not saying I disliked PSO's map generation system that much, but it's nice to have the possibility to get into an area without instantly recognizing the layout after the first two rooms, leading you to know absolutely everything that's ahead of you.
Also I really like the beach and sanctum, so even design wise it's not so bad right now.

tl;dr:I'm okay with it.

gigawuts
Jul 21, 2013, 03:04 PM
No I liked the DnD style enormity of PSO1's maps. They were bigger and you were forced to engage enemies in lengthier combat more than this RNG stuff with droprates so low you're basically forced to rush or exit burst if you want to find anything ever.

Vashyron
Jul 21, 2013, 03:08 PM
I think I would be ok with the current random map design they are going for if they had at least maybe tripled (or more) the varied "lego" pieces that they use to build maps together for each area.

In the situation of trying to make randomised areas via preset map pieces, I feel the more pieces and the more varied they are the better.

AlaskanKactus
Jul 21, 2013, 03:17 PM
Am I the only one that misses the dark rooms?

They would scare the hell out of me when I would make under underleveled runs.

Jim
Jul 21, 2013, 03:17 PM
As it stands, of course PSO's maps will seem better to us, because there was this fantastic first time where you discovered the area, with a design thought for a player to complete(not to mention a boss that's likely to kick your ass but that's another issue); that just doesn't exist in PSO2.

Really though, after the 500th run through, it does even up quite a bit. There may be a reason most of us remember PSO 1 more fondly while we may actually have played PSO 2 more at this point.

Now I'm not saying I disliked PSO's map generation system that much, but it's nice to have the possibility to get into an area without instantly recognizing the layout after the first two rooms, leading you to know absolutely everything that's ahead of you.
Also I really like the beach and sanctum, so even design wise it's not so bad right now.

tl;dr:I'm okay with it.

I definitely see how PSO2's map generation is good on paper, but in it's current state, it just doesn't do it for me. I think it's the doors. I can't say for sure, but I feel like I wouldn't even mind "L-shaped" maps if they had life force doors on them.


No I liked the DnD style enormity of PSO1's maps. They were bigger and you were forced to engage enemies in lengthier combat more than this RNG stuff with droprates so low you're basically forced to rush or exit burst if you want to find anything ever.

Yeah, I agree completely. Some people say PSO2's are bigger, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
[SPOILER-BOX]http://www.pso-world.com/images/maps/caves/3_2_1.gif[/SPOILER-BOX]

I think I would be ok with the current random map design they are going for if they had at least maybe tripled (or more) the varied "lego" pieces that they use to build maps together for each area.

In the situation of trying to make randomised areas via preset map pieces, I feel the more pieces and the more varied they are the better.

Definitely agree here as well. All of the set pieces are completely forgettable. The only area I have fond memories of is that huge, open room that appears in Forest sometimes. Which also makes me think, why do the levels have to be mazes? If they want to go with procedural generation, why not have open, organic maps?

MetalDude
Jul 21, 2013, 03:18 PM
It depends, I really hate Sanctum because the exit is so irritating to find and there's a lot of tedious roadblocks along the way (and the enemies are terrible). Some areas almost always have an exit near the top so you can at least make some good guesses as to where to go.

And I agree with what's been pointed out before, the complete lack of remarkable landmarks makes RNG maps feel generic every time. Running into rare layouts or "chunks" with maybe special codes (somewhat similar to the Vardha Desert area 2) would be an awesome change to keep things interesting so you don't just constantly rush to the end. So far, they've done nothing to improve this at all.

Shirai
Jul 21, 2013, 03:19 PM
Am I the only one that misses the dark rooms?

They would scare the hell out of me when I would make under underleveled runs.

I miss them too.

I used to panic a bit and hug walls to avoid getting hit when on a lowbie

Jim
Jul 21, 2013, 03:32 PM
Am I the only one that misses the dark rooms?

They would scare the hell out of me when I would make under underleveled runs.

I love the dark rooms. Especially since you can SEE the button in the dark, so they weren't tedious at all. Just scary if you were weak. (which is a good thing)


It depends, I really hate Sanctum because the exit is so irritating to find and there's a lot of tedious roadblocks along the way (and the enemies are terrible). Some areas almost always have an exit near the top so you can at least make some good guesses as to where to go.

And I agree with what's been pointed out before, the complete lack of remarkable landmarks makes RNG maps feel generic every time. Running into rare layouts or "chunks" with maybe special codes (somewhat similar to the Vardha Desert area 2) would be an awesome change to keep things interesting so you don't just constantly rush to the end. So far, they've done nothing to improve this at all.

Yeah, I wouldn't call sanctum GREAT, just a step in the right direction. The enemies aren't interesting, and the aesthetics are kind of an eyesore. However, I think the roadblocks are only a headache because the enemies aren't fun to fight. If the combat was just a little more interesting in Sanctum, and they went with better skins for the structures, it could have been one of the best levels.

It's only made worse by the fact that Goronzoran is a pretty horrible boss. He just kind of sits there and throws an old boss at you until you knock him over. Not to say anything bad about Vol Dragon, though. He's the best boss in the game by far. Definitely a worthy PSO boss, IMO.

jooozek
Jul 21, 2013, 03:33 PM
wouldn't say that PSO2 maps are bigger than PSO but man, maps in PSO2 are so empty, if people want to see awesome random level generating they should check out Spiral Knights (ironically, it's developed by a company which SEGA acquired some time ago :lol:), those guys know how to do random and add lots of variance

Jim
Jul 21, 2013, 03:35 PM
wouldn't say that PSO2 maps are bigger than PSO but man, maps in PSO2 are so empty, if people want to see awesome random level generating they should check out Spiral Knights (ironically, it's developed by a company which SEGA acquired some time ago :lol:), those guys know how to do random and add lots of variance

I have been meaning to seriously play Spiral Knights. I've got about 20 minutes in it and it looks promising.

Cyron Tanryoku
Jul 21, 2013, 03:35 PM
idk about that
I spiraled for about 2 months and honestly I kept coming back to the same maps

A lot more

MoronSonOfBoron
Jul 21, 2013, 03:38 PM
While I appreciate the greater variety of general map layout, the individual room characteristics are sorely lacking. Mentioned above were the dark rooms, and there are also cross-room gate switches, laser barriers, individual room variants with randomly placed obstacles...

As PSO2 is, it's meant to give a huge scale to the terrain, which would be fine if there were more props and such to fill that space, but a lot of it is just fire-and-forget since so little investigation is required, combat resolves quickly, and—most importantly—multiple parties have to be able to move through a given room from every direction.

I think a good compromise for this would be limiting "classic flavor" complex sections to Single Party Areas, while leaving Multi Party Areas in their current "open field" state.

PSO1 was slower-paced, allowing cover and close quarters to be key to play without getting in the way. Putting down a lot of obstacles in PSO2 would just end up with people bumping into stuff when they don't mean to, just due to everyone moving so much faster and more often.


I have been meaning to seriously play Spiral Knights. I've got about 20 minutes in it and it looks promising.
I LOVE Spiral Knights, played it for about two years straight. That there is a shining example of how action and pacing interact with the environment. Although the maps and rooms are generally predictable, the flow of action and player's rate of movement (and the control scheme and perspective) allow for a greater number of environmental variables in each room, on top of the hordes of monsters coming at you. It feels like a bullet hell game at times, but you always have full control and maneuverability.

With PSO2's third-person view, inconsistent character hitboxes, and poor directional controls, it just can't afford having too dense of a playing field.

jooozek
Jul 21, 2013, 03:39 PM
idk about that
I spiraled for about 2 months and honestly I kept coming back to the same maps

A lot more

gonna call bullshit on this, i've spent over 80 days of gameplay time there and im sure that i still havent see everything
they've got lots of parts for each level generation and never feel like you played the same level twice and not because the map has a tilted L :lol:

Jim
Jul 21, 2013, 03:48 PM
I think a good compromise for this would be limiting "classic flavor" complex sections to Single Party Areas, while leaving Multi Party Areas in their current "open field" state.

I like that idea. I had actually thought in the past that it would be cool to have "Classic" maps for all the areas. Let the Explorations be the fast-paced, boss rush maps, and make a new list of more immersive missions with a classic feel called "Investigations" or something. These would have life force doors in every room, more prudent EC occurrences, and different RNG algorithms. (Hell, they could even throw together 10 or so maps and randomly give us premade ones.)

Yutaka20
Jul 21, 2013, 09:30 PM
I do agree, there is a need for different door type objectives to get through maps. I don't however want to see it just be a simple excursion of kill 6 enemies open the door /EVERYWHERE/

I've been pretty jaded by PSU's door lock type situations quite a bit..
On the opposite prospective, lock behind you til you kill a room ala Zelda would be interesting. Like a trap situation. (Fungi excluded)

lmao sorry this post might be on page 2 but it sounds so much like SAO (sword art online) where u enters a trap room and requires to kill something to escape or use a warp to escape xD.
but i think it's ok for the maps now.
i mean if they were to make that,
itwould kinda defeat the purpose of making FUNJI ( the annyoing red warp that captures and port u to a prison)
:P
but all in all normal quest is not supposeto be that big anyway.
free exploration wise,i think it's decently big/small enough. the randomness is decent,u wont feel bored by the fact that u will have to run too much as u playing for a long period of time.i bet sometimes u might end up going "thank god it's a fast/short map,have been a tiring grinding day today ><" :p


The fact that TAs don't use a random map generator leads to me questioning Sega this: "Why not just make a new mission type that has a fixed map and spawns?" They already did it for TAs, hell why not just do it for every single area or something similar.

x.x i would rather not have normal maps be fix.
i can assure u,most players will be bored by the routine in no time.
that is why so many ppl dread doing taco.cos it's fix map and plain boring lol.
if ppl aren't constantly attracted to TA for it's high meseta reward, no one would even bother with it :x
cos practically u will just end up "ok i will go north,u go get the switch,u go with him to support and press the other switch..." EVERY single time LOL!

DreXxiN
Jul 21, 2013, 10:43 PM
Definitely agree, I found PSO1 maps much more indulging and immersive.

AlaskanKactus
Jul 22, 2013, 01:22 AM
I wouldn't say small because I've gotten fairly large maps which became a problem last year during Koffee COs. I play solo so I failed, a lot.

I will agree that PSO2 maps lack the immersion that PSO1 had. Like others have said, PSO1 had a good ratio of size to encounters. The only breaks you had were crate rooms and transport rooms.

Any areas that required a lot of walking were usually filled with traps. Also, someone help me out here. I remember there being rooms filled with a poisonous gas, you would then have to find a button to turn off the gas. True or false?

(My memory is clouded from numerous games >.<)

TaigaUC
Jul 22, 2013, 01:23 AM
The maps are designed to be generated and randomized, and they are also optimized for lower-end systems, so to some degree they can't help being dull and uninspired.

However, I think one of the main issues with PSO2's maps is that it doesn't feel like we are going anywhere. There is little meaning in the environments; virtually no backstory and very little hint of civilization. Ever wondered what Dragonkin living quarters look like? Empty rooms consisting of blocks, apparently. Boss arenas are just that - arenas. Many areas also look faded, grainy (with inconsistent texture resolutions) and lack contrast between light and shadow. It's not size of the map that matters so much, but the content of it.

Ragol was interesting in that the further and deeper you progressed, the more the environment changed and expressed meaning. For example, from the volcanic caves to the pristine caverns with waterfalls, from the mines to the central core. There was often a sense of anticipation as you progressed, where rooms closer to the boss felt larger, intense and intimidating. PSO2 lacks all of those. I don't recall the environments in PSO1 looking faded, either. There are minor changes as you progress through areas in PSO2, but they are so minor and meaningless that they are barely noticeable. Weather is irritating and empty because it often vanishes immediately after it appears. Where's the atmosphere in that? Then there are also the awful camera-based effects in Sanctum like the rainbow gas and the screen fog that feel distracting and disorienting because they are obviously attached to the camera.

I also feel that part of the problem is the music. PSO1's music just seems much nicer; more ambient and atmospheric. Everything in PSO2 just feels like battle arenas, especially the heavy reliance on random code spawns. There isn't even any meaning behind random codes. Who are these enemies? Why are they appearing? What do they want? There is no sense of that at all. They're just there, and we have to kill them. Even if you read through the entire story thus far, almost nothing is revealed and there is still almost no meaning to anything we are doing.

Another inherent problem is that most of the time our goal is to reach the end boss or end map, so all other maps are mostly pointless and feel like a hassle instead of an experience.

The worst is obviously Amduscia caves, with its Elimination walling off and irritating Collect codes. The walling always spawns enemies in trickles, and often in hard to reach corners far away, or even on the other side of the wall. It not only wastes the time of players stuck inside the wall, but blocks off the area to prevent anyone else from progressing or even helping. The concept of Code Collect does not go with the flow of gameplay and multiplayer, either. It breaks people up and forces them to waste time running around, and quite frankly, isn't fun at all. Code Avoid is another much-hated code with similar issues. These all conflict with the PSE Burst system, as well.

All of these issues add up and make the maps feel less interesting and more frustrating.

strikerhunter
Jul 22, 2013, 01:31 AM
The maps are designed to be generated and randomized, and they are also optimized for lower-end systems, so to some degree they can't help being dull and uninspired.

-skip-

Ragol was interesting in that the further and deeper you progressed, the more the environment changed and expressed meaning. For example, from the volcanic caves to the pristine caverns with waterfalls, from the mines to the central core. There was often a sense of anticipation as you progressed, where rooms closer to the boss felt larger, intense and intimidating. PSO2 lacks all of those. I don't recall the environments in PSO1 looking faded, either.

-skip-

Another inherent problem is that most of the time our goal is to reach the end boss or end map, so all other maps are mostly pointless and feel like a hassle instead of an experience.


Already said something similar along the line in an earlier post.
[SPOILER-BOX]
Also not to mention adding different scenery of the same area would help add more taste to random maps as well. An example would be like add more trees to forest to get that forest feeling (honestly it feels like we are just visiting the outside of one rather than inside one).[/SPOILER-BOX]

Ruins and Sanctum are the only two so far (not including beach since I really don't count the Day & Night effect as a feature but it's good) that have interesting features.

AlaskanKactus
Jul 22, 2013, 01:33 AM
I also feel that part of the problem is the music. PSO1's music just seems much nicer; more ambient and atmospheric. Everything in PSO2 just feels like battle arenas, especially the heavy heavy reliance on random code spawns.



This. The music in PSO1 added to the immersion, it helped make every setting feel unique. For example, if you were to compare Ragol Forest and the Mines. Both themes had completely different emotions.

Shou
Jul 22, 2013, 02:07 AM
OP: I too feel as though the maps are too small and repetitive. Making the maps larger (aside from cave) and vary more in the maps' altitudes for realism would make them more enjoyable.

SilkaN
Jul 22, 2013, 02:15 AM
This. The music in PSO1 added to the immersion, it helped make every setting feel unique. For example, if you were to compare Ragol Forest and the Mines. Both themes had completely different emotions.


PSO2 has sudden nostalgia outbursts though. For example when that little Ragol Forest melody hits you unexpectedly while you're fighting enemies on Naberius. =D

yoshiblue
Jul 22, 2013, 02:16 AM
OP: I too feel as though the maps are too small and repetitive. Making the maps larger (aside from cave) and vary more in the maps' altitudes for realism would make them more enjoyable.
Maybe then we could have maps with vehicles. Hover boards, bike and rally racing!!! Maybe a big bass fishing spin off for lols.

Syklo
Jul 22, 2013, 02:29 AM
If you were to ask me, pso2's map generator needs more floors/levels.
E.g. Have sections in forest or tundra where we actually run/walk/fight on the "walls" (plateaus), and maybe underground sections.
Ruins...multilevelled ruin structures.
Mines....should be obvious
Desert....BURROWS! (Like, seriously, we shuold be able to fall into those pitholes and stuff)
FC...should be obvious

you get the point.

Mike
Jul 22, 2013, 02:31 AM
OP: I too feel as though the maps are too small and repetitive.
On size: the maps are the size they are today because people complained that they were too large (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193614&highlight=maps) after the second alpha.


Maybe then we could have maps with vehicles. Hover boards and bike rally racing!!! Maybe a big bass fishing spin off for lols.
Need that fishing controller.

Yutaka20
Jul 22, 2013, 02:33 AM
I also feel that part of the problem is the music. PSO1's music just seems much nicer; more ambient and atmospheric. Everything in PSO2 just feels like battle arenas, especially the heavy reliance on random code spawns. There isn't even any meaning behind random codes. Who are these enemies? Why are they appearing? What do they want? There is no sense of that at all. They're just there, and we have to kill them. Even if you read through the entire story thus far, almost nothing is revealed and there is still almost no meaning to anything we are doing.

Another inherent problem is that most of the time our goal is to reach the end boss or end map, so all other maps are mostly pointless and feel like a hassle instead of an experience.

The worst is obviously Amduscia caves, with its Elimination walling off and irritating Collect codes. The walling always spawns enemies in trickles, and often in hard to reach corners far away, or even on the other side of the wall. It not only wastes the time of players stuck inside the wall, but blocks off the area to prevent anyone else from progressing or even helping. The concept of Code Collect does not go with the flow of gameplay and multiplayer, either. It breaks people up and forces them to waste time running around, and quite frankly, isn't fun at all. Code Avoid is another much-hated code with similar issues. These all conflict with the PSE Burst system, as well.

All of these issues add up and make the maps feel less interesting and more frustrating.

i am guessing any maybe hoping in near future they will add in more info upon certain E-code appearing,so that the game is more appealing.
I mean they did try to make it more interesting by adding announcement for dark falz. But that is becos many ppl would be attending the EQ. map questing wise are still less frequently visited by players. So I guess SEGA don’t see the point of putting them.
the cave EQ certainly will need to do more improvement.in terms of more boss Ecode sprawn and even the annoying blockage Ecode.at least do a announcement that give some sense of urgency etc,or maybe even a "critical timer" where something will happen if u dont unlock and meet up with the rest in due time.making everyone to have the sense of urgency xD

practically they can ignore the normal maps .i think many wont mind.but EQ map wise.gotta hike uo the intensity and add some form of "detail + info"

Meji
Jul 22, 2013, 03:33 AM
On size: the maps are they size they are today because people complained that they were too large (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193614&highlight=maps) after the second alpha.Oh yeah, I remember this! Now that you mention it, Alpha maps were huge.

I personally love how the maps are randomized, despite their sometime small sizes. I remember PSU promised this back when it was first announced, but they never really got too it.

MegaMettaurX
Jul 22, 2013, 04:52 AM
that boring. i like random map generator

Didn't you used to play Mabinogi? I remember seeing this name on their forums.

In mabinogi you had to earn progress in dungeons and shadow missions I actually like that (even though I personally breeze through most of them). In this game, it's a lot of just killing enemies on the way to the boss. I usually walk a straight line and just kill anything directly in front of me for an S rank. It's really stupid IMO. Weak gameplay design as far as that goes.

Syklo
Jul 22, 2013, 05:00 AM
Didn't you used to play Mabinogi? I remember seeing this name on their forums.

In mabinogi you had to earn progress in dungeons and shadow missions I actually like that (even though I personally breeze through most of them). In this game, it's a lot of just killing enemies on the way to the boss. I usually walk a straight line and just kill anything directly in front of me for an S rank. It's really stupid IMO. Weak gameplay design as far as that goes.
Mabinogi's dungeon system is pretty good, yeah.
At least in that, there were reasons to seek out dead-ends (Like iron ore mining, herbs, fountains, etc.)

PSO2 maps need more environmental gimmicks (e.g. electric one-way shortcut rails in mines)...and free fields should generate maps of all sorts (E.g. why doesn't forest free field occasionally create a room which has that west-east river?)

MegaMettaurX
Jul 22, 2013, 05:25 AM
Mabinogi's dungeon system is pretty good, yeah.
At least in that, there were reasons to seek out dead-ends (Like iron ore mining, herbs, fountains, etc.)

PSO2 maps need more environmental gimmicks (e.g. electric one-way shortcut rails in mines)...and free fields should generate maps of all sorts (E.g. why doesn't forest free field occasionally create a room which has that west-east river?)

The advanced dungeons were cool too. All the dead ends had chests with potions and/or gold. And they're not weak HP10s, they give you HP30s and 50s, which is good, because I never carry HP potions in that game. Being an archer in that game requires your inventory be half full of stamina pots.

Kondibon
Jul 22, 2013, 05:34 AM
Speaking of Mabinogi and randomized maps. I think something like Mabi's shadow missions would be cool. They're partly randomized, the maps are always the same shape but which spots have spawns, and what those spawns are is random.

Also in the dungeons, there tended to be different types of rooms that affected how enemies spawned, for instance, having to hit the right switch to open a door but hitting the wrong ones would spawn enemies, or rooms that would lock you in until you defeated them all.

I'd also like to see more spawns per quadrant like others have said. :/ Only one is a let down. 2 or 3 waves of enemies, or just larger spawns would be more fun for me.

MegaMettaurX
Jul 22, 2013, 06:01 AM
Speaking of Mabinogi and randomized maps. I think something like Mabi's shadow missions would be cool. They're partly randomized, the maps are always the same shape but which spots have spawns, and what those spawns are is random.

Also in the dungeons, there tended to be different types of rooms that affected how enemies spawned, for instance, having to hit the right switch to open a door but hitting the wrong ones would spawn enemies, or rooms that would lock you in until you defeated them all.

I'd also like to see more spawns per quadrant like others have said. :/ Only one is a let down. 2 or 3 waves of enemies, or just larger spawns would be more fun for me.

All PSO really needs is a larger incentive to kill enemies. Sure it's fun, but at some point, it becomes tedious and an actual waste of time, which SHOULD NEVER BE A THING IN A MMO. EVER.
Like, I remember when I used to play Ragnarok all day and night, and I noticed a pattern with each character I made. The incentive to kill stuff changed. At first I killed thing for experience until a certain level, then I started killing things for particular drops (Mobbing them, and what not). Sure hunting for rares and what not is an option in PSO2, it just takes too long to get to that point where you no longer need to focus so much on building your character, and instead should be gearing. I dunno if PSO EP1 and 2 or PSU had this problem because I didn't play them for very long, but I do know that PSPo2 didn't have this problem, because leveling was fairly quick, so rare hunting online actually felt "right"

Kondibon
Jul 22, 2013, 06:12 AM
All PSO really needs is a larger incentive to kill enemies. Sure it's fun, but at some point, it becomes tedious and an actual waste of time, which SHOULD NEVER BE A THING IN A MMO. EVER.
Like, I remember when I used to play Ragnarok all day and night, and I noticed a pattern with each character I made. The incentive to kill stuff changed. At first I killed thing for experience until a certain level, then I started killing things for particular drops (Mobbing them, and what not). Sure hunting for rares and what not is an option in PSO2, it just takes too long to get to that point where you no longer need to focus so much on building your character, and instead should be gearing. I dunno if PSO EP1 and 2 or PSU had this problem because I didn't play them for very long, but I do know that PSPo2 didn't have this problem, because leveling was fairly quick, so rare hunting online actually felt "right"

I think one of the biggest things the game needs is some variety in goals. A lot of mmos nowadays have multiple ways to play, using guildwars and mabi as examples, they both have and emphasis on crafting, which can be entertaining in and of itself, but they also make it a way to gain exp.

Then there's the fact that GW2 and Mabi both have a lot of parallel content, PSO2 is getting there with the addition of the coast and making the exp penalty more lenient, but the other parallel content, would be TACOs, which you just have to memorize, or extreme quests, which are limited. I'd say advanced quests too but they're just normal quests that scale as you do them... :/

The game really needs more variety in general.

Valimer
Jul 22, 2013, 03:04 PM
As it stands, of course PSO's maps will seem better to us, because there was this fantastic first time where you discovered the area, with a design thought for a player to complete(not to mention a boss that's likely to kick your ass but that's another issue); that just doesn't exist in PSO2.

Really though, after the 500th run through, it does even up quite a bit. There may be a reason most of us remember PSO 1 more fondly while we may actually have played PSO 2 more at this point.

Now I'm not saying I disliked PSO's map generation system that much, but it's nice to have the possibility to get into an area without instantly recognizing the layout after the first two rooms, leading you to know absolutely everything that's ahead of you.
Also I really like the beach and sanctum, so even design wise it's not so bad right now.

tl;dr:I'm okay with it.

Yeah IDK, even counting in the nostalgia factor it's just not the same. In PSO1 completing all three areas and killing the boss was an ordeal. In PSO2 completing exploration quests is a joke. There's no real feel of accomplishment.

They could fix this by adding objectives that would be needed to access the next area. Or just making the generated maps more complex and with more buttons needed to unlock doors, or something.

bitCrusher
Jul 22, 2013, 03:58 PM
I wasn't a fan of PSU's level design, because they were overly large, not fun to run around in, and having slow character movement was a bad combination. For the longest time, I didn't know why my left thumb would always start hurting after playing the original PSU on Xbox 360, and now I realize it was because I would subconsciously tilt the joystick harder than I should in hopes that my character would RUN FASTER.

PSO2 maps are fine in my opinion. I mean...you can JUMP now, that's a nice plus. It's the action that gets formulaic. I'd love for SEGA to add another camera zoom option, because the default distance is too far, and the zoom in distance is too damn close.

DoubleZero
Jul 22, 2013, 04:58 PM
You know what this game needs? Signature rooms: The Waterfall room, the 'flashlight' shaped room, the central core before the boss in Ruins, the long hallways lined with traps, the waterfall room in Caves 2. Something to give you a sense of progress.

You know what ELSE the game needs? Varying ceilings. Everything's so... Open overhead. Even Sanctum has this huge high ceiling, and the Caves/Tunnels would be more thematic if there were actual small passageways and junk. Imagine running through a long narrow corridor in Tunnels to one of those big platform rooms we have now. Wouldn't that be a great visual change? Switches and Doors would add to the theme in more inorganic areas, too.

You know what this game REALLY REALLY needs? The Seabed from Ep 1&2.

Varying levels, confined rooms, broken-down scaffolding, the mostly flooded room with the Deldepths, that room with the 'secret path' along the wreckage to some treasure, and that one last run down the hallway to the boss, waist-deep in water. It all meshed together so much more thematically than the more generic things we're getting in PSO2.

Cyclon
Jul 22, 2013, 05:06 PM
ceilings
small passageways
long narrow corridorRagne.

DoubleZero
Jul 22, 2013, 05:29 PM
Ragne, and similarly large entities like him, can just fall back or go away if they can't reach their prey. Sega didn't seem to care about the slow process of door camping in the original, so why would they suddenly give a flip now?

Rosel
Jul 22, 2013, 05:36 PM
Lame? Yes. Small. No.

The maps suck.

gigawuts
Jul 22, 2013, 05:40 PM
Ragne, and similarly large entities like him, can just fall back or go away if they can't reach their prey. Sega didn't seem to care about the slow process of door camping in the original, so why would they suddenly give a flip now?

Oh no, there are already small passageways in this game, and enemies follow you into them so they can cram their extremities inside the walls making it impossible to hit them.

I agree we need signature rooms though, 100%. Everything is too samey. Boss rooms would count if they had more decoration and eye candy, as it is they're kind of just enlargened and flattened versions of the rest of the map.

DoubleZero
Jul 22, 2013, 05:56 PM
Oh no, there are already small passageways in this game, and enemies follow you into them so they can cram their extremities inside the walls making it impossible to hit them.

I agree we need signature rooms though, 100%. Everything is too samey. Boss rooms would count if they had more decoration and eye candy, as it is they're kind of just enlargened and flattened versions of the rest of the map.

That's what the doors and such would be used for; points where larger sets of enemies would disengage chasing, while smaller mobs could pursue unaffected. To be honest, I spend so much time running around these maps, I can't seem to recall fighting in any tight spots akin to the hallways in PSO1's Caves, Mines and Ruins.

I will echo the sentiment about the sheer amount of travel-time versus the amount of time actually spent fighting, though. Most of my immediate memories when I recall PSO2 involve running through big empty places, eventually fighting mobs that would be better suited for less expansive regions.

gigawuts
Jul 22, 2013, 06:06 PM
Yeah, that would work nicely.

Honestly, what do I think we REALLY need? More bosses like elder falz and bal rodus. All these enemies that can spawn in the field are fun and all, but they don't feel like bosses. There's nothing epic about fighting zesh, just annoying. But bal and falz? Yeah, that feels a bit epic. I'd love more enemies that are custom tailored to their little arena, interact with it, and are more complex than weak bulleting the face. Everything else is just a scaled up trash mob.

MetalDude
Jul 22, 2013, 06:12 PM
A lot of it is having those terrible four-sector occupying huge rooms that have all of one spawn in it. These rooms need either huge spawns or more individually broken up spawns. They're particularly bad for AQs.

~Aya~
Jul 22, 2013, 06:13 PM
Need a darker boss that can capture people and hold them within itself. It slowly drains their hp away and if you hit the targetable area it hurts the party member. Freeing that player requires you to hit a weak point and cause the monster to release the player. Not only that.. but absorbing/capturing the player allows the boss to leech abilities from said class type and use them against players. .. a boss that can use WB or assault buster etc..

Enchanced abilities.. AoE WB ftw

Jim
Jul 22, 2013, 06:23 PM
Yeah, that would work nicely.

Honestly, what do I think we REALLY need? More bosses like elder falz and bal rodus. All these enemies that can spawn in the field are fun and all, but they don't feel like bosses. There's nothing epic about fighting zesh, just annoying. But bal and falz? Yeah, that feels a bit epic. I'd love more enemies that are custom tailored to their little arena, interact with it, and are more complex than weak bulleting the face. Everything else is just a scaled up trash mob.

Yeah, I've complained about the bosses a lot myself. I think gaining the ability to jump makes boss design more difficult. I like Vol Dragon though. If he didn't have a weak spot on his nose, and were a little taller so you had to knock him down for the weak spot on his back, he'd be perfect.

gigawuts
Jul 22, 2013, 06:24 PM
A lot of it is having those terrible four-sector occupying huge rooms that have all of one spawn in it. These rooms need either huge spawns or more individually broken up spawns. They're particularly bad for AQs.

Yeaaaaahhh...that's really bad. Those should count as four separate rooms. Finding one of those should be like finding the diamond in the rough that is that given map layout.

Cyclon
Jul 22, 2013, 06:39 PM
Need a darker boss that can capture people and hold them within itself. It slowly drains their hp away and if you hit the targetable area it hurts the party member. Freeing that player requires you to hit a weak point and cause the monster to release the player. Not only that.. but absorbing/capturing the player allows the boss to leech abilities from said class type and use them against players. .. a boss that can use WB or assault buster etc..

Enchanced abilities.. AoE WB ftw
That person would be dead before his/her autoword could even trigger.

What feels really obvious, to be honest, is that they decided from the get go to refrain creativity when it came to map layout design, so that they'd have complete freedom when it came to what could happen on them. I really don't see that changing, not in this game at least.

yoshiblue
Jul 22, 2013, 07:07 PM
Could always go with the be eaten and fight your way out approach. Not sure how the transition would go for that though. Would make you worry less about having to deal with multiple emergency codes though.

MetalDude
Jul 22, 2013, 07:09 PM
From an Emergency Code perspective I get that, but there's really no unique or outstanding codes that go on as it is. We haven't gotten anything really special in a long time.

Jim
Jul 22, 2013, 07:14 PM
That person would be dead before her autoword could even trigger.

What feels really obvious, to be honest, is that they decided from the get go to refrain creativity when it came to map layout design, so that they'd have complete freedom when it came to what could happen on them. I really don't see that changing, not in this game at least.

It would be nice if we had some kind of an objective to care about and then had ECs on the side. It feels like I'm just running freely through a mostly empty level until one of the ECs that bores me the least convinces me to stop.