PDA

View Full Version : What's up with Sega streamlining the classes like this?



Imjake
Aug 17, 2013, 04:13 AM
I only have 2 real complaints about this game: The lack of weapon types (which I covered in another post) and one that really really bugs me: The amt. of weapons allowed per class.

Am I the only one extremely disappointed about this? Now before someone says "leave if you dont like it", Ill say I dont dislike it enough to not enjoy the game. However, it's still baffling to me that Sega did it this way. I mean seriously, why 3-4 weapon types per class?

Have any of you heard anything about future class plans?

EXPFULL
Aug 17, 2013, 04:19 AM
So, you'd prefer less classes with more weapon types?

Something like the old Hunter/Ranger/Force?

I'm personally glad they didn't go down this route. I only have one character, and only one class at 60, but I know others that have maxed out every damn class in the game... that being 7 in total. If there was only three classes to master, those type of players would have quit a long time again in my opinion.

jooozek
Aug 17, 2013, 04:20 AM
yeah, it's pretty moronic, inferior in all ways to the system they had in place for PSP2
PSO2 seems like a downgrade in all places to all the other games in PS series


So, you'd prefer less classes with more weapon types?

Something like the old Hunter/Ranger/Force?

I'm personally glad they didn't go down this route. I only have one character, and only one class at 60, but I know others that have maxed out every damn class in the game... that being 7 in total. If there was only three classes to master, those type of players would have quit a long time again in my opinion.

a racast wasn't a ramarl
get real

Chdata
Aug 17, 2013, 04:29 AM
I'm new to the PSO world starting in PSO2 and it's fine as it is. New content is always fun though.

isCasted
Aug 17, 2013, 05:01 AM
I am fine with Hunters' and Fighters' weapons, but other classes just feel unfinished. I mean, these 2 classes have 3 unique weapons types for each, while other classes (except for Braver, but that's not for too long) have only one!

There are not many weapon types, but I see how game designers try to get best out of what's there, like adding gears, giggles, and making PAs imitate other weapons that are not in the game. However, I still think each class except for Hunter and Fighter should get at least one new unique weapon.

landman
Aug 17, 2013, 05:09 AM
And each weapon has like 5-6 different PAs minimum, I don't see this bad at all, the same weapon can have different game-styles.

UnLucky
Aug 17, 2013, 06:01 AM
Not really sure what a different tech weapon could even do other than be a weaker or stronger rod. That or it doesn't cast techs (?).

And any new Gunner weapon would have to have the Stylish Roll or be completely worthless.

Darki
Aug 17, 2013, 06:09 AM
So, you'd prefer less classes with more weapon types?

Something like the old Hunter/Ranger/Force?

I'm personally glad they didn't go down this route. I only have one character, and only one class at 60, but I know others that have maxed out every damn class in the game... that being 7 in total. If there was only three classes to master, those type of players would have quit a long time again in my opinion.

I'm sorry but I don't agree.

One of the unique things in this series was precisely the fact that there has always been lots of weapon types and that each class was able to use a good number of them by default. In PSU, all but 3 classes would be able to use like 10 weapons minimun. Most other games go with a single weapon per class. I don't really find enjoyable at all to have classes like Gunner, Force or Techer that have pretty much a single useful weapon and you can well ignore any other.

On top of that, we are not allowed to use our subclass weapons, except for class-free ones, and there's not a really good selection of those for some classes. I don't believe we should go back to how it was in PSU, since skilltrees make weapon types a bit more unique, but honestly... If they commited only a 10% of the effor they put in designing cosmetic crap for female fleshies I'm pretty sure they could have avoided repeating weapon categories in gunners and techers.

I don't want to have 3 classes only with 10 usable weapons each, but I don't want to have 15 classes with acces to only two weapon types either. This franchise has pretty well rooted weapon categories that they could implement (laser cannons, shotguns, slicers, axes, etc), and instead of making another crap class with a single new weapon, one repeated + gunslash, they could put them in already existing classes, give skilltree expansions and give more variety to class builds.


Not really sure what a different tech weapon could even do other than be a weaker or stronger rod. That or it doesn't cast techs (?).

And any new Gunner weapon would have to have the Stylish Roll or be completely worthless.

That's a pretty rushed opinion, I would say. I agree with the tech weapon, although they could go the PSU way and give tech classes melee and/or ranged weapons unique to them, but the part about gunner I don't see why would it be that way. They could design any weapon with a similar function, or with a different function that doesn't require to dive roll.

Chdata
Aug 17, 2013, 06:13 AM
"Force or Techer that have pretty much a single useful weapon"


36 spells

Darki
Aug 17, 2013, 06:16 AM
38 spells

So? By the same maths, then HU has 36 "weapons" since it has 9 PAs per weapon, same with Fighter, and Gunner and Ranger go close. That's not the point of the discussion. In any case, I understand that techs add more variety to Forces, but I don't think having some variety in weapons that modified the usefulness of those techs would be a bad thing.

UnLucky
Aug 17, 2013, 06:19 AM
That's a pretty rushed opinion, I would say. I agree with the tech weapon, although they could go the PSU way and give tech classes melee and/or ranged weapons unique to them, but the part about gunner I don't see why would it be that way. They could design any weapon with a similar function, or with a different function that doesn't require to dive roll.
It would have to do twice as much damage as TMGs including the Gear in order to be worth using over SRoll JA.

Darki
Aug 17, 2013, 06:22 AM
It would have to do twice as much damage as TMGs including the Gear in order to be worth using over SRoll JA.

And the problem with that would be...?

If we are hypotesyzing what new weapons could be added to existing classes, "it would be" whatever we want to imagine. Personally, I don't see why would a weapon like... maybe shotguns, not have these parameters. It would even make sense that they'd be twice as strong as mechs, shotguns are supposed to be a heavier weapon.

Chdata
Aug 17, 2013, 06:24 AM
The only way they'd add something to add variety to techs would be more things like demon fork.

I'm all for that, but what could they possibly add that affects techs that way.

Also force isn't really comparable to hunter at all. Or rather, techs and PAs in general.

I also doubt sega would 'just add' shotguns to make them 2x damage unless they're really slow or something. I'd like to see miniguns for ranger though. I never thought about it, but with Sroll arts I dunno how they'd fit a shotgun in gunner. It's sad cause that's something I'd really like to see, I use that ranger shotgun PA a lot.

Darki
Aug 17, 2013, 06:29 AM
I'm all for that, but what could they possibly add that affects techs that way.

I do agree with you on this, it'd be a difficult if not impossible task to think of a different function for tech weapons. We got the "normal" one, the ranged one and the melee one. In any case, tech classes have always been the ones with the lowest weapon count. But again, in PSU they just got an extra edge from other weapon types. In PSU, whips, bows and cards were technically "techer" weapons. I just don't like the fact that you got both melee classes with 3 unique weapons each, and for the rest there's only one... I think they could have made a better effort.

Laxedrane
Aug 17, 2013, 06:29 AM
Not really sure what a different tech weapon could even do other than be a weaker or stronger rod. That or it doesn't cast techs (?).

And any new Gunner weapon would have to have the Stylish Roll or be completely worthless.

They could just be weapons that behave like a melee/artillery weapons that deal T attack damage instead of S/R.

Or they can be weapons with built in T attack for the hybrids. (Like all whips let's say if they added that having 1/2-3/4 of their S attack in T attack. Instead of a few specific rare ones)

They could have weapons that just give special effects. Like a casting weapon that just charges faster but has weak T attack making it a good support cast weapon.

Sega been good about making sure every weapon has their own unique feel. Katanas for example may just be a weaker faster sword with essentially most of their PAs pulled from existing weapons PAs. But not of the weapons it borrows it's pas from feel like katana, and katana does not feel like any of them.

Keeping that in mind I am sure sega can add a lot of weapons that essentially do the same thing but feel different becuase of a unique effect from the gear or just a special effect in general like mechs dodge, with just a unique flare in how the weapon is used.

Ce'Nedra
Aug 17, 2013, 06:39 AM
They should just have kept the system in PSP2/i and let you use the weapons you want yourself imo. At first I thought it was awesome to use a subclass with more weapons, to then learn you need all class weps and alot suck like stated before by others.

As far I remember, Fighters have very crappy all class weapons while Hunters all class weapons are like frigging good and powerful (Neiclaw, Lamba Aritsin to name a few). This makes me never sub FI and go with a HU sub all the time. Same goes with subbing Gunners, the all class mechs are either joke weps or just all out bad, unless you are lucky enough to get a Guld Milla.

I hope someday this will be changed but I highly doubt it.

Chdata
Aug 17, 2013, 06:40 AM
Miniguns for ranger sounds so fitting ;o;

Offering snail-pace movement while revved up, but high damage!

Shotguns for gunner, their gear doubles the effect of zero range advance on them. Builds on point blank shots (or zero range shots?). Builds faster than TMG and drains slowly over time while not attacking. Does more damage the closer you are because it has a wide spread, making it bad for anything further than sword distance, and really good for anything closer. Cannot sroll, but shotguns already have a lot of damage on their own. Not a great chain trigger builder, but a viable switch for the finish?

Locks your skill tree I suppose, but at that rate I view it as no different than fire vs lightning in the FO tree. In this case, shotgun vs TMG. Or stance vs stance on Br.

Of course, if it's only one point for the shotgun gear, since a lot of people already put a lot into zero range advance, it'd probably be easy to have both available for you.

Buying Yasminkov 9000S 90m

Imjake
Aug 17, 2013, 07:15 AM
I think the PSU classes should be brought back. To an extent at least.

Valkyrie Lovrina
Aug 17, 2013, 07:44 AM
I do wish PSO2 had the Weapon Type System from PSP2/I. like me removing Knuckles off of Fighter for Twin Sabers instead since I dislike Knuckles. the all class weapon system is terrible as well. we've had Lambda Aresvis for how many months now? and some other All Class weapons being absurdly rare. its pretty annoying. No Phantasy Star game has forced me to use something against my will exept this one.

Example: in PSU, Fighgunner had recieved C-A Granade Launchers(JP only I think?) I never liked Grenade Launchers but I didn't have to use them because the class had a lot of other things to offer me.

in PSO1BB, every selectable class had access to a ton of weapons. Even Forces could use a lot from the Mechgun and Slicer catagories. better yet, I had a FOnewearl with a Holy Ray. I never had to /Ranger anything to Paralyze Astarks 50 feet away.

Crystal_Shard
Aug 17, 2013, 07:54 AM
The subclass system would be tolerable, if there were more all class options for the mid range. Having only one low-mid option followed immediately by the 10* - 12* option makes all class weapons a complete joke as an option. Count me in as another one who preferred PSPo2i's system.

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 08:00 AM
solution:
1. remove allclass status - you can use any and all weapon from your main and sub classes
2. differentiate stats some more the same way hunter/fighter has more hp than fighter/hunter, using atk, dex, and/or def where fitting
3. add second subclass to directly address the OPs wants, which are completely valid - we don't get to use that many weapon types unless we go melee/melee
4. add more weapon palettes jesus

AgemFrostMage
Aug 17, 2013, 08:22 AM
I don't like rods and wands being split up into two weapon types =( Soon my force becomes 55 so will need to get the techer up to 55 after, a long time it takes for levels and it doesn't have a 10 star -_- Anything good enough to match elder rod T-ATK wouldn't be equippable anyway until mag levels much more.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 17, 2013, 08:23 AM
solution:
1. remove allclass status - you can use any and all weapon from your main and sub classes
2. differentiate stats some more the same way hunter/fighter has more hp than fighter/hunter, using atk, dex, and/or def where fitting
3. add second subclass to directly address the OPs wants, which are completely valid - we don't get to use that many weapon types unless we go melee/melee
4. add more weapon palettes jesus

Also keep HP the same across the board. Cannot really suspend disbelief enough. So changing from hunter to force suddenly makes you lose that constitution? I don't believe it!

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 08:48 AM
Also keep HP the same across the board. Cannot really suspend disbelief enough. So changing from hunter to force suddenly makes you lose that constitution? I don't believe it!

Uh, yes, actually. Hunter is supposed to have more HP than force. If you need some moronic roleplay reason how about this:

Photons.

Enforcer MKV
Aug 17, 2013, 08:48 AM
I only have 2 real complaints about this game: The lack of weapon types (which I covered in another post) and one that really really bugs me: The amt. of weapons allowed per class.

Am I the only one extremely disappointed about this? Now before someone says "leave if you dont like it", Ill say I dont dislike it enough to not enjoy the game. However, it's still baffling to me that Sega did it this way. I mean seriously, why 3-4 weapon types per class?

Have any of you heard anything about future class plans?

See, now...they're doing it like this specifically to increase the time people spend in the game. More classes to level to get all the weapons. Stupidly rare weapons to find.

Honestly, all class weapons, that entire system, fails. It's a mess.

Kondibon
Aug 17, 2013, 09:02 AM
solution:
1. remove allclass status - you can use any and all weapon from your main and sub classes
I wouldn't go that far, even with more defined differences in stats. Though, as I've said before I'd really like if they were more consistent and readily available.

I would LOVE a second subclass but I don't see that happening as easily as more all-class weapons.

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 09:03 AM
I wouldn't go that far, even with more defined differences in stats. Though, as I've said before I'd really like if they were more consistent and readily available.

I would LOVE a second subclass but I don't see that happening as easily as more all-class weapons.

Why not? The shift is to being two classes at once, not a class with a second skilltree and some extra weak weapons.

Ce'Nedra
Aug 17, 2013, 09:03 AM
solution:
1. remove allclass status - you can use any and all weapon from your main and sub classes
2. differentiate stats some more the same way hunter/fighter has more hp than fighter/hunter, using atk, dex, and/or def where fitting
3. add second subclass to directly address the OPs wants, which are completely valid - we don't get to use that many weapon types unless we go melee/melee
4. add more weapon palettes jesus

This seems legit enough. I'd go with this, or with the PSP2/i system personally if I had to vote for a new system for this game. More Weapon Palletes is a must period though.

strikerhunter
Aug 17, 2013, 09:08 AM
TO the OP: Althugh I am all in favor for more weapons in each class. (2 or 3 that are not useless for the class) and I go with what Giga posted above.
I won't see SoJ ever adding new weapons to existing classes for several reasons.

1. They will have to do an update for each weapons in each tree in each Class.
2. It's easier to just slam it in with new classes.
3. Lots of re-balancing will have to be done not with just the new weapons, but with the older weapons as well as new branches in the skill tree are introduced.

Kondibon
Aug 17, 2013, 09:19 AM
Why not? The shift is to being two classes at once, not a class with a second skilltree and some extra weak weapons.

Well I was thinking of something like the letter ratings for weapons in PSU and Portable etc. While classes had access to multiple weapons they didn't necessarily have access to the BEST of all of them. I think the selection should be limited, not necessarily bad. Making the statistical differences between classes larger actually feels like it would cause more problems than it would fix, especially since some are already so pronounced as to make certain class combinations uselss. Maybe something like making main classes have different priorities for stat gains, like forces get 25 or 30% of their subclass's t-atk but only 15% of their s-atk etc.

Personally I like, giving classes access to weapons, including ones not specifically meant for their class, based on star rating, and combining them somehow when you sub a class, depending on which one is the main or the sub. But that's too complicated for me to expect sega to pull it off. I can't even adequately explain it.

The game needs more horizontal progression too. :/ I think weapon potentials should be innate and only needing grinds to upgrade them. There also needs to be more that do stuff besides boosting damage to specific PAs or in specific situations. Like one that decreases spread on ranged weapons (they're making a skill for it so I know it's possible), or gives you PP back for using uncharged techs.

*rant rant*

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 09:45 AM
Star rarity is not an indicator of anything but grind bonus and grind difficulty, full stop. It does not indicate a weapon's quality anymore. What they SHOULD be doing is just giving more weapons more accessibility to different classes, like that new tatk double saber that can be used by fighters, forces, and techers. We need way more of that.

You know what I'd really like? A weapon or damage type affinity system like Borderlands had. You use swords a lot? Get a small bonus to what swords can do. You use melee a lot? Get a small bonus to what melee in general can do.

Races will start with different affinities, but that'll just be the base. You can do whatever you want and all races will have the same cap.

Darki
Aug 17, 2013, 10:06 AM
I think it'd be more realistic just to create a "brand" of weapons that cover all types, like the Ardillo type weapons, and have them to be class free. They could give them some "perks" for subclasses, like all of them giving some TATK.


I won't see SoJ ever adding new weapons to existing classes for several reasons.

1. They will have to do an update for each weapons in each tree in each Class.
2. It's easier to just slam it in with new classes.
3. Lots of re-balancing will have to be done not with just the new weapons, but with the older weapons as well as new branches in the skill tree are introduced.

They have to do that pretty much anyways since you can use subclasses. I don't think that's much more complicated than having to balance an entirely new class with the rest from scratch.

Kondibon
Aug 17, 2013, 10:14 AM
I think it'd be more realistic just to create a "brand" of weapons that cover all types, like the Ardillo type weapons, and have them to be class free. They could give them some "perks" for subclasses, like all of them giving some TATK.I like this idea too. Infact when they first announced that they were adding more all-class weapons this is what I thought they were gonna do...


Star rarity is not an indicator of anything but grind bonus and grind difficulty, full stop. That was just an example, It could be something else for all I care.

Though at this point it feels like we're not really gonna get anywhere anyway cause a lot of this would require so much rebalancing that I doubt sega would even try any of this so... really, what's the point? More all-class weapons is the best I think we can hope for right now.

darthvader
Aug 17, 2013, 10:14 AM
solution:
4. add more weapon palettes jesus
^ This. Off topic abit but Hu/Fi or Fi/Hu really need this. Heck I'd even spend my money on it if they ever decided to add extra ones via AC shop.

And On topic, yes, to be honest they should AT LEAST just let people use all of the subclass weapons instead of only PA

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 10:24 AM
I like this idea too. Infact when they first announced that they were adding more all-class weapons this is what I thought they were gonna do...

That was just an example, It could be something else for all I care.

Though at this point it feels like we're not really gonna get anywhere anyway cause a lot of this would require so much rebalancing that I doubt sega would even try any of this so... really, what's the point? More all-class weapons is the best I think we can hope for right now.

People approach game balance like this a lot, and it's entirely the wrong way to see it. Game balance is about an equilibrium. It's a see saw with way more than just two directions. If one side is imbalanced you just put a bit more on it to balance it again. Simple as that. This equilibrium does not need to be exactly the same after major changes - in fact, it shouldn't be the same. If it was good enough as it was you wouldn't be talking about changes.

If you throw everything up in the air and let it fall wherever it wants it will reach an entirely new equilibrium all on its own after only a little while. Players adapt. Things will change, but with fewer limitations and a more natural approach to subclasses as a second component, as opposed to an additional and restricted component, the game will overall be better for it. Especially so if you add a second subclass.

Right now each class feels like half of a class, and the subclass should be adding that second half but it really just doesn't. Sega also can't do math to save their lives, so if you're not subbing HU as anything you're pretty much fucked over for it, exceptions for HU (obviously) and FO, possibly BR and GU if you want weak bullet.

strikerhunter
Aug 17, 2013, 11:39 AM
They have to do that pretty much anyways since you can use subclasses. I don't think that's much more complicated than having to balance an entirely new class with the rest from scratch.

My point was that it is easier to make a new class with a tree tying to the new weapons instead of adding in another branch into an existing class skill tree. Not to also mention how less complicated it'll also be to do so.

Point-being: Better off to create and new class with new weapons than screw/change current existing skill trees.

IzzyData
Aug 17, 2013, 11:41 AM
I don't know exactly what the thread is arguing for or against, but I don't see anything wrong with having more and even redundant weapon types. It adds choices and people like choices. The game is largely appealing to physical appearance in the first place so it is a pretty big part of the game to use a weapon that looks cool to you.

Omega-z
Aug 17, 2013, 11:50 AM
gigawuts - I think the whole second sub can be a possibility since the icon for it was data-mined. It's a Bronze icon to the Gold and Silver one's, So we could see a combination like HU/FI/BR with 9 weapon's to choose from.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 17, 2013, 11:54 AM
Uh, yes, actually. Hunter is supposed to have more HP than force. If you need some moronic roleplay reason how about this:

Photons.

What dumb roleplay reason? Is just common sense. Photon explanation might work but if Superman quit his job as Superman and studied to be a wizard he'd still have his strength so is why it doesn't make sense to lose HP when class changing unless explained away by something like... photons.

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 11:58 AM
gigawuts - I think the whole second sub can be a possibility since the icon for it was data-mined. It's a Bronze icon to the Gold and Silver one's, So we could see a combination like HU/FI/BR with 9 weapon's to choose from.

Interesting, that's great. As it is the main/sub don't feel like a main and sub, but a first and second half. A second sub would be a true sub, where you get side bonuses.

Like, take HUnewearl. That's definitely fi/hu/fo or fi/hu/te. It is NOT fi/te.

HUcast would be hu/fi/ra

RAcast would be ra/gu/hu

So on and so forth.

The second subclass would be to add the secondary roles of that class. You wouldn't get the weapons, or that wouldn't be why you choose it but maybe you'd get it I don't care. What you'd want is techs or traps or chain trigger, or whatever, on top of hu/fi or fo/br or any other combination that gets by on its own.


What dumb roleplay reason? Is just common sense. Photon explanation might work but if Superman quit his job as Superman and studied to be a wizard he'd still have his strength so is why it doesn't make sense to lose HP when class changing unless explained away by something like... photons.

Common sense is secondary to video game balance. A class designed to take more hits is going to have to take more hits. Force is not meant to take hits.

Darki
Aug 17, 2013, 12:00 PM
My point was that it is easier to make a new class with a tree tying to the new weapons instead of adding in another branch into an existing class skill tree. Not to also mention how less complicated it'll also be to do so.

Point-being: Better off to create and new class with new weapons than screw/change current existing skill trees.

But that's what every other game does. My point is simply that having classes with the ability to wield a fuckton of weapon types has always been one of the perks of playing this series since PSO. To choose a class and be limited to 1~2 weapons I could just go play any other MMO out there. PSU might have been crap in many aspects, but being able to choose between as many as 15 weapon types for some classes, I wouldn't count it as one of ther bad things.

Also, even though I don't have my hopes too high for SEGA being too competent, the thing is that they're BEING PAID for doing this game correctly. Cosmetic bullshit won't keep players that long if you don't have fun things to do while waving your new fanservice-outfitted ass. I don't think it's asking too much for them to actually do their fucking job. One thing is to expect them to be lazy, and another thing is to endorse it.


I don't know exactly what the thread is arguing for or against, but I don't see anything wrong with having more and even redundant weapon types. It adds choices and people like choices. The game is largely appealing to physical appearance in the first place so it is a pretty big part of the game to use a weapon that looks cool to you.

What "choice" do you have as a Gunner or a Techer, exactly? I don't see your point. With these classes you either play with their single unique weapon types or you'd better just switch to their counterparts, pretty much.

What I'm arguing, at least, is that I would enjoy less classes with more weapons each, more than a berjillion classes with a single useful weapon each. I think the game has enough classes already to make the subclass system work, adding more classes is just going to end like in PSU: having a handful of useful classes, and a crapton of useless ones.

strikerhunter
Aug 17, 2013, 12:08 PM
But that's what every other game does. My point is simply that having classes with the ability to wield a fuckton of weapon types has always been one of the perks of playing this series since PSO. To choose a class and be limited to 1~2 weapons I could just go play any other MMO out there. PSU might have been crap in many aspects, but being able to choose between as many as 15 weapon types for some classes, I wouldn't count it as one of ther bad things.

Also, even though I don't have my hopes too high for SEGA being too competent, the thing is that they're BEING PAID for doing this game correctly. Cosmetic bullshit won't keep players that long if you don't have fun things to do while waving your new fanservice-outfitted ass. I don't think it's asking too much for them to actually do their fucking job. One thing is to expect them to be lazy, and another thing is to endorse it.


It's not that I don't agree with you but I do agree with you though, it's that I find it hard for Sega to do so.

Both adding weapons into existing classes and introducing new classes with new weapons both have their positives and negatives.

Chdata
Aug 17, 2013, 12:08 PM
Just access to the weapons of your subclass is enough to me imo

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 12:11 PM
They're not being paid to do it correctly, they're just being paid to do it.

Darki
Aug 17, 2013, 12:13 PM
Both adding weapons into existing classes and introducing new classes with new weapons both have their positives and negatives.

I agree, but the problem is that if we count all the possibilities that sub-classing gives us, we have like 42 possible class combinations already. That must be a freaking hell to balance.

Besides, not all new weapons need to use a whole new skilltree. If they added shotgun to gunners, for example, they could throw a couple skills for it and use the already existing ones, whereas for a whole new class, you gotta balance the stats, ALL the skills, and etc.

strikerhunter
Aug 17, 2013, 12:15 PM
Besides, not all new weapons need to use a whole new skilltree. If they added shotgun to gunners, for example, they could throw a couple skills for it and use the already existing ones, whereas for a whole new class, you gotta balance the stats, ALL the skills, and etc.

Very true my friend, very true. Some skills currently existing in the skill trees can be revamped around instead of branching off.

NintenJon25
Aug 17, 2013, 12:41 PM
I only have 2 real complaints about this game: The lack of weapon types (which I covered in another post) and one that really really bugs me: The amt. of weapons allowed per class.

Am I the only one extremely disappointed about this? Now before someone says "leave if you dont like it", Ill say I dont dislike it enough to not enjoy the game. However, it's still baffling to me that Sega did it this way. I mean seriously, why 3-4 weapon types per class?

Have any of you heard anything about future class plans?

I've tried out all the other classes other than Hunter and have looked at the weapons a Fighter/Gunner/Techer can use, and I've gotta say it makes sense why SEGA went down the route they did in most instances.

The only thing that does need major improvement is the Braver's skill tree and potential sub-class.

I think SEGA got most of the balancing issues right with this game. I would hate to have any more Hunter/Fighter weapons introduced, though, that's for sure. As said previously in another thread, the only class that needs more improvement is the Braver as it was introduced into the game with a pretty barebones-leveled skill tree.

You bring up PSU and other games with these large numbers of weapons to choose from, but you neglect to mention the fact that over half of those weapon types were never utilized or nearly as effective as other weapon types.

Here in PSO2, each weapon serves a completely different purpose from the next. You don't run into the same issue with one weapon completely over-powering another because there's a weapon for each situation that you have, regardless of class.

For instance, if I'm a Force and want to use a combination of long-range techs, I'd go for my Rod. If I don't want to enter the fray and want to stay behind and cast support techs for team members, I'd use the Talis. When a Ranger, if I'm sniping from long-range, Assault Rifle. When closer to enemies and packs of them are close together, the Launcher. Hunter---I'm using the Sword for slow moving enemies, Wired Lances/Partisans against aerial ones, or Partisans for enemies that have faster response times and smaller hit-boxes. Braver is just painfully obvious---you either go long-range with Bullet Bow or close-range with the Katana.

If you're a Premium user, I'd always recommend creating multiple skill sets for each class based on the area you intend to grind on. If you know you are going to need lightning techs for a Force, have a skill set that specializes more in that department.

Overall, where I'm trying to get at here is that you don't need that over-abundance of weapons 'as of now' for the current product. Combined with having the chance to mix classes to your liking, switch classes on the go, and even assign skill sets any way you want to, no one person from either class will be the same as the next in playstyle.

In older Phantasy Star games, you'd see the same specialization in weapon-types and overall utilization due to their one-sided, controlled nature. Soon, everybody just looked like clones of each other.

Here in Phantasy Star Online 2, you have that level of customization needed to make it a modern, online action RPG. You don't need a ton of different weapon types to give it that aspect---all you need is more flexibility with the skills you assign for each class. From what I've played, I haven't ran into any major issues with balancing for either class, but I'll let you know if that does happen in the future.

What I CAN say is that more weapons does not equal a better level of customization or uniqueness. More weapons just means that there is more of a chance that two weapons could end up doing relatively the same thing, with one clearly overpowering the other in that regard. Takes Canes and Rods for example in PSO. There's a reason Canes were removed from PSO2, and it's quite obvious.

You can have 15 different weapon types for each class, but if only 2-4 are worth lugging around for everyone, then you'll only stick with those 2-4 and the others being there will serve no other purpose than to taunt you when you are searching for rares for the 2-4 that do server their purpose well.

SEGA has always had issues with balancing in past Phantasy Star games, so I'm glad they decided to go with having less weapon types available for each class. It gives them more time to work out whatever balancing quirks and unique qualities they want to have ironed out before introducing more weapons, skills, and classes in the future.

strikerhunter
Aug 17, 2013, 12:46 PM
I think SEGA got most of the balancing issues right with this game. As said previously in another thread, the only class that needs more improvement is the Braver as it was introduced into the game with a pretty barebones-leveled skill tree.


Nope.

jooozek
Aug 17, 2013, 12:50 PM
balance? you must be in normal

pkemr4
Aug 17, 2013, 12:59 PM
its very stupid that you cant use weapons from your sub class....

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 12:59 PM
I agree, but the problem is that if we count all the possibilities that sub-classing gives us, we have like 42 possible class combinations already. That must be a freaking hell to balance.

Besides, not all new weapons need to use a whole new skilltree. If they added shotgun to gunners, for example, they could throw a couple skills for it and use the already existing ones, whereas for a whole new class, you gotta balance the stats, ALL the skills, and etc.

I agree completely, shotguns would complement gunner perfectly and wouldn't even require a single change to the tree. Just put the gear next to the second ZRA. That's it. Done.

Buuuuuut

Why give something to an existing class that nobody's making a huge fuss over? Some fuss, sure, but not a huge one. So just make a new class, Shooter, and watch everyone have to replay the pre-existing content AGAIN. Easy as that! Everyone's busy and all we had to do was design a skilltree and put in the shotgun models we've had mostly finished since the late beta.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 17, 2013, 01:16 PM
I've tried out all the other classes other than Hunter and have looked at the weapons a Fighter/Gunner/Techer can use, and I've gotta say it makes sense why SEGA went down the route they did in most instances.

The only thing that does need major improvement is the Braver's skill tree and potential sub-class.

I think SEGA got most of the balancing issues right with this game. I would hate to have any more Hunter/Fighter weapons introduced, though, that's for sure. As said previously in another thread, the only class that needs more improvement is the Braver as it was introduced into the game with a pretty barebones-leveled skill tree.

You bring up PSU and other games with these large numbers of weapons to choose from, but you neglect to mention the fact that over half of those weapon types were never utilized or nearly as effective as other weapon types.

Here in PSO2, each weapon serves a completely different purpose from the next. You don't run into the same issue with one weapon completely over-powering another because there's a weapon for each situation that you have, regardless of class.

For instance, if I'm a Force and want to use a combination of long-range techs, I'd go for my Rod. If I don't want to enter the fray and want to stay behind and cast support techs for team members, I'd use the Talis. When a Ranger, if I'm sniping from long-range, Assault Rifle. When closer to enemies and packs of them are close together, the Launcher. Hunter---I'm using the Sword for slow moving enemies, Wired Lances/Partisans against aerial ones, or Partisans for enemies that have faster response times and smaller hit-boxes. Braver is just painfully obvious---you either go long-range with Bullet Bow or close-range with the Katana.

If you're a Premium user, I'd always recommend creating multiple skill sets for each class based on the area you intend to grind on. If you know you are going to need lightning techs for a Force, have a skill set that specializes more in that department.

Overall, where I'm trying to get at here is that you don't need that over-abundance of weapons 'as of now' for the current product. Combined with having the chance to mix classes to your liking, switch classes on the go, and even assign skill sets any way you want to, no one person from either class will be the same as the next in playstyle.

In older Phantasy Star games, you'd see the same specialization in weapon-types and overall utilization due to their one-sided, controlled nature. Soon, everybody just looked like clones of each other.

Here in Phantasy Star Online 2, you have that level of customization needed to make it a modern, online action RPG. You don't need a ton of different weapon types to give it that aspect---all you need is more flexibility with the skills you assign for each class. From what I've played, I haven't ran into any major issues with balancing for either class, but I'll let you know if that does happen in the future.

What I CAN say is that more weapons does not equal a better level of customization or uniqueness. More weapons just means that there is more of a chance that two weapons could end up doing relatively the same thing, with one clearly overpowering the other in that regard. Takes Canes and Rods for example in PSO. There's a reason Canes were removed from PSO2, and it's quite obvious.

You can have 15 different weapon types for each class, but if only 2-4 are worth lugging around for everyone, then you'll only stick with those 2-4 and the others being there will serve no other purpose than to taunt you when you are searching for rares for the 2-4 that do server their purpose well.

SEGA has always had issues with balancing in past Phantasy Star games, so I'm glad they decided to go with having less weapon types available for each class. It gives them more time to work out whatever balancing quirks and unique qualities they want to have ironed out before introducing more weapons, skills, and classes in the future.

Agree 100% My first 10 star was a talis, very disappointed so I traded it for an elder rod, which I will soon trade for a silica roses as it has a higher T-ATK. This one I will grind to +10. Too many weapon types means that people will just stick to the ones that universally work the best. For breakables that must be manually targeted you have namegid, things that are long you have zan as it hits more than one damage point (great for Bal Rodos and Big Vardha), gibarta for monsters spread over wide area, Nafoie for hitting big cats while they roar and Dark Ragne, etc.

I think we have too many weapons in the case of techers using wands instead of rods though. Feels gimmicky doing more damage during our PP refuel phase.

Omega-z
Aug 17, 2013, 02:22 PM
Yeah, they need to allow the use of sub-classes weapon's and there PA's/Tech's and keep the all-class one's for anything else or allow you to use the all-class one's normally like if it was your main.

Another thing would be to allow you to level your sub to the level of your main at the same time.

I do agree, That the T-atk weapon's aren't unique enough. There main function for use is the same using Tech's. Talis really does get over shadowed by Rod's since you can pretty much do everything except Support while being save from a distance and gain pp back from far away, Otherwise it falls short. But the nice thing tho is, How Force play-style is it allow's for Talis play much more easier since most of the time your going to not be in the fray.

Now Techer having more of a melee role still has tech's instead of PA's which make's thing's clunky. Right now how Wand is it's split on it's role. Wand's should be a Melee weapon that use's T-atk instead of S-atk that use's PA's which in turn power's up the Wand Gear to do striking based tech-like explosion's instead that are S-atk based. This would allow for more use out of the Talis for Techer since it would make it the only way to cast tech's from it, except form the pallet . Because right now I have no use for Talis what so ever since the wand can do everything it does and the ranged part doesn't matter since your melee. If you focus to be more distance then others will ask you why not be Force instead.

The only other way I could see it happening between the T-atk weapon's would be to break up the Tech's based on there focuses and there secondary function's which would also be tied to the weapon except for Support's, this would give 6-12 Tech's per weapon. Which mean's to use every Tech you have to have the right weapon plus being a FO/TE or TE/FO where Talis would give you the most access. Now this idea would be the hardest for the fan's to except and wouldn't happen. But to allow Wand's to have PA's and adjust WG & WR to fit that would help it out and be much more excepting.

Well, only time will tell and what ever Sega does.

Galax
Aug 17, 2013, 03:10 PM
I'm going to be straight up with this -

PSU had a fun system. It really did. But it wouldn't work as well in PSO2.

My three favorite classes in PSU were Wartecher, Guntecher, and Fortetecher, with Fortegunner and Gunmaster close seconds.

Now I got stuck on 360, but I was okay with that. I maxed WT, GT FT to 20, and then experimented with every weapon pallet combo I could lay my hands on.

Ultimately...I didn't use many different weapon types. My WT pallet was a pair of Twin Claws with...the PA that ends with kamehameha/hadoken blast; A saber with Gravity Strike and a Guld with Mayalee Hit; A wand with Resta/Reverser paired with a Dambarta/Diga Tech Mag; And...that's it. My other three slots were filled with a Sword equipped with Tornado Break, which I never really used, since it was too slow for my tastes; A bow for the rare occasions when I fought flying bosses and didn't feel like using Noszonde instead of Dambarta on my techmag; and a pair of twin daggers for nostalgia's sake. I may as well have left them blank.

The same thing ended up happening with Guntecher and Fortetecher; I primarily went Saber or Dagger with a Crossbow and a Wand with a Pistol on guntecher; I didn't need anything else. The other four slots were either blank or filled for the sake of having them filled. Fortetecher, I either went with six rods, each put in one of the elements, or five and sacrificed either Dark or Lightning - my least used elements - for a bow.

Out of all the options those three classes offered me, I chose to alternate between Crossbows, Wands, Rods, Techmags, Sabers, and once in a while a bow.

I tried out Fortegunner in the hopes that this would change. It didn't. One rifle with killer shot, one rifle with Burning Shot, one Shotgun with my lv45 Lightning bullet, one machinegun for the sake of having a friggin' SMG that never got used in serious combat.

Never did I really need more than two or three weapons/weapon combos. Everything was covered...and that's how PSO2 is running it. That isn't to say it couldn't use a few changes, but I'm far from wanting the PSU system back. If we change to any system, it sounds like it should be the PSP/2/i one; where you could pick and choose your weapon types. I'd give myself TMGs, Rifles, Bows, Katanas, and say "fuck you" to everything else. I can already do this with Gu/Br or Br/Gu, but really, I don't feel like using Lambda Aresvis and dishing out 1.8million for a Bouquet Rifle, or going for the even slimmer pickings of Bigglow and that 1-Dex Katana for braver sub.

Darki
Aug 17, 2013, 03:22 PM
But that's not a matter of "what works" or not. The game must be done properly in order to give varierty to the users. The fact that in a game where most of your classes could use 10+ weapons with 4+ PAs each you ended using just one or two weapons with a single PA, implies that they didn't design the game properly to make you use them.

I agree that this game mechanics would be overstuffed with as many weapons as there were in PSU, but I think having classes with only one functional weapon is not really too good design.

Also, it doesn't mean that you MUST use all that is given to you in a class. But for me it would be more interesting to have a class that needs to be branched (let's take the example of Gunner with shotgun), so you can focus on two entirely different playstyles while being the same class, than having classes with only one competent outcome.

If you like shotguns then you will use shotguns, If you like mechs you'll use them. My point is, why do we need to have them in separate classes, when they could be in Gunner, share many skills that would conceptually benefit both weapons (as Giga said, ZRA sounds like business for shotguns), and allow for people who do like to play with a wider palette, do so?

Chik'Tikka
Aug 17, 2013, 03:40 PM
you know how RAs and GUs can use rifles?? FOs and TEs can use Talis?? i want RA to use Bows, and HU to use katanas... +^_^+ do that and i'll be happy+^_^+

yoshiblue
Aug 17, 2013, 04:35 PM
Hunter:Fighter
Ranger:Gunner (needs mores guns)
Force:Techer
Braver:Super Sentai (Kunai and Megazords or something)

AgemFrostMage
Aug 17, 2013, 04:48 PM
I have a relatively simple yet practical playing style. I don't put Nazonde, barta, sabarta, gizan, gifoie, most megids except for na,sa, and regular megid sometimes, and as fighter just need orchestra and bloody sarabande, hunter other spin and speed rain, and sometimes that big sword skill and ride slasher if I need to reach anywhere that can't by normal jumping. That new lance ability is good sometimes from a distance, but is situational like against breehadas and... maybe other situations.

Darki
Aug 17, 2013, 04:48 PM
you know how RAs and GUs can use rifles?? FOs and TEs can use Talis?? i want RA to use Bows, and HU to use katanas... +^_^+ do that and i'll be happy+^_^+

Of course, because rifles are so useful as a Gunner, and anybody knows how much more effective is a talis over a wand or a rod... Please. You know perfectly what I mean. Unless you're playing GU/RA, tell me exactly what can you do with a rifle better than with mechs. Ditto for talis. That's exactly what I meant by the word "functional" in "classes with only one functional weapon".

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 05:01 PM
For a little while rifle was your AOE シ

Kilich
Aug 17, 2013, 05:19 PM
Eh, I use all of PAs for Br, and most for Hu whenever I return to it. So I don't really see the class system as too limited.
Maybe for Te and Gu though, since I still don't see a point in those two.

Lumpen Thingy
Aug 17, 2013, 07:19 PM
Eh, I use all of PAs for Br, and most for Hu whenever I return to it. So I don't really see the class system as too limited.
Maybe for Te and Gu though, since I still don't see a point in those two.

um tech is one of the best subs for fo and gu is a dam beast of a class against mobs and bosses with the new mech gun pa and new s roll skillz -_-

MetalDude
Aug 17, 2013, 07:45 PM
If by one of, you mean second best far and away from FO/FI and one of the only three that are actually viable as a sub, then yeah.

Agastya
Aug 17, 2013, 08:21 PM
give me more sub perks instead

hunter sub is beneficial to everything not named force so theres hardly a reason to sub anything other than it unless you are a force or a hunter

filthy hunters tainting everything

Emp
Aug 17, 2013, 08:26 PM
um tech is one of the best subs for fo and gu is a dam beast of a class against mobs and bosses with the new mech gun pa and new s roll skillz -_-

I just lol'd. As much as I love gu, Gus launch mobs too much since 90% of them use elder rebellions against mobs. Gu is fun but it hampers others.

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 08:34 PM
I just lol'd. As much as I love gu, Gus launch mobs too much since 90% of them use elder rebellions against mobs. Gu is fun but it hampers others.

"Some people play it wrong so the class is bad"

Emp
Aug 17, 2013, 08:39 PM
"Some people play it wrong so the class is bad"

Ikr but gu is an exception. There really isnt any other great way to play gu outside of elder rebellion. Ya u have heel stab but srsly ur looking to get kicked if you spam the hell outta that.

Im personally try to get out of that habit. I still use elder but Im now trying to use uncharged heel stab as some sort of gap closer for that spinning kick pa.

MetalDude
Aug 17, 2013, 08:44 PM
ZRA with SRJA, Heel Stab, Infinite Fire, Messiah Time, and Elder Rebellion. Have you bothered trying at all or what? Hell, I'd say I barely use ER and Satellite Aim even outside of ZRA can hit extremely hard now. GU/HU is pretty much GU's definitive damage dealing setup.

Xaeris
Aug 17, 2013, 08:44 PM
Ikr but gu is an exception. There really isnt any other great way to play gu outside of elder rebellion. Ya u have heel stab but srsly ur looking to get kicked if you spam the hell outta that.

Im personally try to get out of that habit. I still use elder but Im now trying to use uncharged heel stab as some sort of gap closer for that spinning kick pa.

I've been staring at my screen for two minutes, trying to think of a tactful way to inform you that you're wrong about everything you just said here. I've come up with nothing.

Emp
Aug 17, 2013, 08:48 PM
ZRA with SRJA, Heel Stab, Infinite Fire, Messiah Time, and Elder Rebellion. Have you bothered trying at all or what?

I really dont see how useful messiah is. If you can tell situations where it could be, I might practice using it. And I like infinite fire. It is easy mode pa and great alternative to elder, and doesnt knockup. Ive only used infinite fire on things like persona, cougar, and mizer.

gigawuts
Aug 17, 2013, 08:50 PM
I've been staring at my screen for two minutes, trying to think of a tactful way to inform you that you're wrong about everything you just said here. I've come up with nothing.
Better men have tried and failed.

Or, well, better robots anyway.

Beep boop.

MetalDude
Aug 17, 2013, 08:50 PM
Murders bosses given you can mash fast enough/have a turbo macro. Heel Stab is your definitive mobbing tool, far FAR superior over ER except in certain situations where targets are more spread.

Emp
Aug 17, 2013, 08:56 PM
Murders bosses given you can mash fast enough/have a turbo macro. Heel Stab is your definitive mobbing tool, far FAR superior over ER except in certain situations where targets are more spread.

U still didnt answer when or where messiah is useful. I can mash pretty fast and I know how to use heel and er properly.

MetalDude
Aug 17, 2013, 08:58 PM
>

Murders bosses given you can mash fast enough/have a turbo macro

If you're using mostly just ER, you're being horribly inefficient and aren't actually attempting to use Heel Stab properly.

Emp
Aug 17, 2013, 09:04 PM
>


If you're using mostly just ER, you're being horribly inefficient and aren't actually attempting to use Heel Stab properly.

Ur saying messiah is like spammable like infinite?. Never knew that o.o

MetalDude
Aug 17, 2013, 09:14 PM
You can mash the button on it yeah. With a turbo macro, it's game breaking. I think they're fixing that though. But even still, it's capable of multihitting at certain angles which in combination with S Roll JA makes it do massive damage.

Freshellent
Aug 17, 2013, 09:17 PM
Better men have tried and failed.

Or, well, better robots anyway.

Beep boop.

IS THAT A CHALLENGE, BRETHREN?

I've got nothing to say to you anyhow.

Seriously, I haven't even read half this topic. I'll go back in a sec.

Edit: Yeah, still nothing to say on the subject of balance on the game considering how terrible I am at it for the moment. It's hard to judge. At first I wanted more weapons to mess with but really so few things I actually like turn out to be useful- so I'm spending more time trying to adjust to what does work and just the player base itself.
I'm lucky to be playing with great people lately, who happen to be patient but in randoms I'm far less lucky and starting to feel like a Protranser again.

There's some stuff I'd like to see return, but I'm very adamant in the belief that the game is still young and we'll see many, many changes yet. It's just how this series is.

Emp
Aug 17, 2013, 09:23 PM
IS THAT A CHALLENGE, BRETHREN?

I've got nothing to say to you anyhow.

Seriously, I haven't even read half this topic. I'll go back in a sec.

Edit: Yeah, still nothing to say on the subject of balance on the game considering how terrible I am at it for the moment. It's hard to judge. At first I wanted more weapons to mess with but really so few things I actually like turn out to be useful- so I'm spending more time trying to adjust to what does work and just the player base itself.
I'm lucky to be playing with great people lately, who happen to be patient but in randoms I'm far less lucky and starting to feel like a Protranser again.

There's some stuff I'd like to see return, but I'm very adamant in the belief that the game is still young and we'll see many, many changes yet. It's just how this series is.

Just waiting for that day when we get single handed weps and shotguns.

MetalDude
Aug 17, 2013, 09:26 PM
I'd love it if shotguns were really brutal where the weapon action was a rush and you'd do a combination of kicks and shots to fuck up clusters. It'd fit way too well with GU's melee-esque style.

Emp
Aug 17, 2013, 09:30 PM
I'd love it if shotguns were really brutal where the weapon action was a rush and you'd do a combination of kicks and shots to fuck up clusters. It'd fit way too well with GU's melee-esque style.

Have u seen the shotgun pa that was in psp2 infinity? Its like that zero distance launcher pa but was more op.

Laxedrane
Aug 17, 2013, 09:42 PM
But that's not a matter of "what works" or not. The game must be done properly in order to give varierty to the users. The fact that in a game where most of your classes could use 10+ weapons with 4+ PAs each you ended using just one or two weapons with a single PA, implies that they didn't design the game properly to make you use them.

I agree that this game mechanics would be overstuffed with as many weapons as there were in PSU, but I think having classes with only one functional weapon is not really too good design.


I think the problem is, is that the weapons are balanced for a game they are not in.

The fact that the game so relaxed, and really only demands you deal damage. A lot of utility is just pointless cause YAY OVER END or whatever. Over end is the perfect example to. It should be a PA that you only use on bosses super stunned. Instead it's a catch all becuase of the lack of difficulty and aggressive AIs.

Talis would of been a god send in older games. Could you imagine extending your casting range that much to do something like seabed or Phantasmal world?(although those rooms were tiny compared to PSO2s so maybe not) Safety by doubling your casting range is the only real thing talis brings to the table and it's completely unnecessary.

Rien
Aug 17, 2013, 09:53 PM
Ikr but gu is an exception. There really isnt any other great way to play gu outside of elder rebellion. Ya u have heel stab but srsly ur looking to get kicked if you spam the hell outta that.



Ya u have heel stab but srsly ur looking to get kicked if you spam the hell outta that.

no no no no

Look here

With heel stab and reverse tap YOU do the kicking

not the other way round

Galax
Aug 17, 2013, 11:17 PM
no no no no

Look here

With heel stab and reverse tap YOU do the kicking

not the other way round

*hugs rien for that*

Super Ass Kicking Mechgun Combo:

Heel Stab, Aerial Shooting, Reverse Tap.

Chdata
Aug 18, 2013, 02:10 AM
>only use elder rebellion as gu


>infinity fire is better outside of chain trigger

Darki
Aug 18, 2013, 02:53 AM
I think the problem is, is that the weapons are balanced for a game they are not in.

The fact that the game so relaxed, and really only demands you deal damage. A lot of utility is just pointless cause YAY OVER END or whatever. Over end is the perfect example to. It should be a PA that you only use on bosses super stunned. Instead it's a catch all becuase of the lack of difficulty and aggressive AIs.

Talis would of been a god send in older games. Could you imagine extending your casting range that much to do something like seabed or Phantasmal world?(although those rooms were tiny compared to PSO2s so maybe not) Safety by doubling your casting range is the only real thing talis brings to the table and it's completely unnecessary.

I agree with you, but part of the problem is us, the players. In PSU, there were enemies that were resistant to techs and enemies resistant to melee, for example. The system wasn't too good implemented, but the thing is that people pretty much ignored that, and instead of relying on tech-users in the party to deal with those, they ended complaining about not being able to solo some missions properly because some enemies didn't react much to the H1GZ NUMB4RZ. At the end, these things got relaxed and thedre wasn't much of a difference in damage. Besides, melee was very OP in PSU, so even with a downgrade in damage, it was just faster to smash things away.

I understand that you can't go too strict with this. If you make enemies too resistant to some types of damage, to the point that you need lots of effort to kill some enemies while other players can bitchslap them to death in seconds, might be annoying. It's like tech elements: it's good to use the proper element for enemy weaknesses, but you might just LOVE dark techs to the point of wanting to use them all the time, and if enemies like darkers (which are supposed to be dark-attribute) ignored dark attacks, thatg wouldn't be too much fun.

I would have loved a system where some enemies were completely inmune to certain types of damage and all classes had a way to deal with them even if they were secondary abilities. I like this because I like hybrid classes, and the idea of NEEDING to use my dual abilities to fight ptoperly would be awesome, but I know most people just want to have a single weapon loaded with the same PA 3 times and smash the attack button.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 18, 2013, 07:31 AM
I think the problem is, is that the weapons are balanced for a game they are not in.

The fact that the game so relaxed, and really only demands you deal damage. A lot of utility is just pointless cause YAY OVER END or whatever. Over end is the perfect example to. It should be a PA that you only use on bosses super stunned. Instead it's a catch all becuase of the lack of difficulty and aggressive AIs.

Talis would of been a god send in older games. Could you imagine extending your casting range that much to do something like seabed or Phantasmal world?(although those rooms were tiny compared to PSO2s so maybe not) Safety by doubling your casting range is the only real thing talis brings to the table and it's completely unnecessary.

My 30 hunter sometimes has trouble with over end sometimes, better just to other spin over end can't be dodged out of and overcommits. As for stun you need many points in freeze keep for it to be reliable, which requires either teaming or using a suboptimal main/sub combo -_-

AgemFrostMage
Aug 18, 2013, 07:35 AM
I agree with you, but part of the problem is us, the players. In PSU, there were enemies that were resistant to techs and enemies resistant to melee, for example. The system wasn't too good implemented, but the thing is that people pretty much ignored that, and instead of relying on tech-users in the party to deal with those, they ended complaining about not being able to solo some missions properly because some enemies didn't react much to the H1GZ NUMB4RZ. At the end, these things got relaxed and thedre wasn't much of a difference in damage. Besides, melee was very OP in PSU, so even with a downgrade in damage, it was just faster to smash things away.

I understand that you can't go too strict with this. If you make enemies too resistant to some types of damage, to the point that you need lots of effort to kill some enemies while other players can bitchslap them to death in seconds, might be annoying. It's like tech elements: it's good to use the proper element for enemy weaknesses, but you might just LOVE dark techs to the point of wanting to use them all the time, and if enemies like darkers (which are supposed to be dark-attribute) ignored dark attacks, thatg wouldn't be too much fun.

I would have loved a system where some enemies were completely inmune to certain types of damage and all classes had a way to deal with them even if they were secondary abilities. I like this because I like hybrid classes, and the idea of NEEDING to use my dual abilities to fight ptoperly would be awesome, but I know most people just want to have a single weapon loaded with the same PA 3 times and smash the attack button.

If darkers ignored dark attribute then I wouldn't even bother with zesh since namegid is the best spell for breaking his parts and aiming for his face. There is what the monster is weak against, then the practically best spell, sometimes they overlap (like rockbear and bigcats being weak to fire, and oceanids being weak to ice given how wide they can spread out, safoie is great against the Naberius bosses), sometimes they don't. Wind is best against Big Vardha and Bal Rodos, Dark best against Zesh and Org Blan, Dark best against Chrome, Quartz, and Vol Dragons, lightning mostly certain darkers and robots, etc.

Sp-24
Aug 18, 2013, 07:37 AM
>only use elder rebellion as gu


>infinity fire is better outside of chain trigger
Damn it, I thought I was the only one. Seriously, is there any reason why Elder Rebellion is (well, was, with new PA being overpowered or something) even used when Infinity Fire exists? Outside of the CT example, of course. Sorry for off-topic, but this has been bugging me for a whole day after seeing this discussion.

UnLucky
Aug 18, 2013, 08:20 AM
What do you mean why? ER does more damage faster with longer range and you don't need to mash.

IF just lets you approach to get ZRA really easy. And probably ends up being more damage for the PP cost, but then HS is much better for that and has AoE on all its hits (and better damage).

deahamlet
Aug 18, 2013, 09:05 AM
The thing is the problem is players.

Take DDO as an example. Huge variety of weapon types. Other than going pure magic attack (sorcerer/wizard), any other class combination including "healers" (not really healer class, just light/force based caster class that can heal others) can use a variety of weapons.

But in the end, all 2 hand builds use that one weapon from AGES ago because that weapon should have been nerfed or scrapped because you cannot deliver anything stronger than it without borking any pretence of balance. Last few updates made that weapon even worse in terms of being too OP. They try to release weapons that are situationally better but nobody is having any of it other than those too poor on currency or time to farm that one weapon (requires getting the base and then getting 3 other parts, only base and 1 part being tradable).

Dual-wielding builds used to be all about picks, now they are all about khopeshes. Everyone pretty much ignores the other weapon types and in DDO enemies are resistant to different types of weapon damage (for example slash for skeletons). It doesn't matter, people know khopesh is best damage overall and that's all they are willing to use.

And then there is monk. Well they have limited choices because they can only keep stance using light weapons... but nonetheless everyone is using gloves. Cause they are faster.

In the end you'd have to make every weapon choice cookie cutter exactly the same in order to make it that no matter the choice, you are top dog. And really, what's the point then, just weapons with different names and not really anything else. In PSO2 it's worse because PAs also can range in range and how well they work in ALL situations and so even those would have to become a boring blend of same old thing.

In the end most players just want something that is overall best most of the time.
They don't necessarily want to switch and most certainly they do not want their choice being nerfed. Everyone cries that new weapons are not as strong as X uber weapon, but they throw a kid tantrum if anyone ever suggests their uber weapon gets nerfed. Hey, they nerfed casters and boosted 2handed users to the extreme, so I guess forum whining does succeed sometimes...

I personally think there's no point in tech classes to get more weapon types though I'd love some wacky range tech weapon for the giggles. Slingshot for the win!
I found it disappointing that gunner has only one weapon of main use really, I think they should have given gunner 2 completely new weapons.
I find gunslashes a cop-out and I really wish we had 3 unique weapons for ranger and gunner, but gunner is the only one that irks me. I play force/techer on my main and Braver/Hunter and Ranger/Hunter on alts. I really don't need more tech weapon types. But give me more cool looking 11+* rods, instead!

Z-0
Aug 18, 2013, 09:06 AM
Whenever I read these forums I find that it's always the players being blamed for wanting to use the best.

I don't even.

gigawuts
Aug 18, 2013, 09:53 AM
Whenever I read these forums I find that it's always the players being blamed for wanting to use the best.

I don't even.

It's the fanboy effect. If I like it why can't you? You're the problem.

Like when I was saying fist gear isn't really a good gear, the bonus is meh and doesn't offer nearly the kind of benefits any other gear does.

Kneejerk response? I'm just bad.

No yeah, I can and have soloed most bosses without being hit using only the knuckle duck, but I just don't know how to use knuckles because I think the gear is a terrible idea yeah okay.

If your automatic response is that the players are the problem then something is wrong. The players want what the players want. It's the company's responsibility to try to understand that and cater to it. If the players aren't getting what they want here they'll just go and get it somewhere else when someone else does give them what they want.

UnLucky
Aug 18, 2013, 10:12 AM
Wow, people don't like feeling worthless and requiring other players to carry them through certain content? What a bunch of crybabies! So what if you don't have any [necessary class here], go find one!

Oh, you don't like this weapon/skill/class that's inferior in every possible way to something else? But we spent so much time designing it to be the way it is! Shut up and appreciate what you have!

deahamlet
Aug 18, 2013, 10:13 AM
Lol touchy touchy.

gigawuts
Aug 18, 2013, 10:14 AM
/say something stupid
/people call it stupid
/play it off like they're being sensitive when you have nothing to follow up with

I, too, can be an idiot.

Darki
Aug 18, 2013, 10:31 AM
Wow, people don't like feeling worthless and requiring other players to carry them through certain content? What a bunch of crybabies! So what if you don't have any [necessary class here], go find one!

Oh, you don't like this weapon/skill/class that's inferior in every possible way to something else? But we spent so much time designing it to be the way it is! Shut up and appreciate what you have!

The thing is, that when a weapon/skill/class (I wouldn't really say weapon in this case, though) is found inferior in every possible way so thast nobody wants to play it, I find more logical to try to fix it, not to keep it that way and make the only worthy skills/classes yet better in comparision, which is what they did in PSU, for example. On this topic, this problem comes in the way that it's very possible that as they add a dozen more classes to showcase a single new weapon each, they will bury older classes that would need a bump to be useful.

Because, inferior as they might be, there will be people who will like these underrated skills/classes, for a variety of reasons. I think it's a bit mean to create such core game concept and then not taking the responsability to keep it balanced.

Using the retarded example, yes, there might be food that most people like and some meals that are not too popular, but if you're running a restaurant, either put the same effort on keeping all your meals good, or don't put the inpopular ones in the menu, because there will be people who will order those regardless, and they will be dissapointed.

UnLucky
Aug 18, 2013, 10:48 AM
Well yeah, when something is so bad that nobody uses it, they should be changed to be able to compete.

I mean, you can't expect perfect balance in everything, but they should at least be better in some way. Or comparable in several.

Simply giving underperforming classes/weapons a new skill/PA that outshines every mediocre thing they used to have isn't good balance, even if it brings them up to par or even surpasses the prior OP setup. The things nobody used before still won't be used!

Darki
Aug 18, 2013, 10:53 AM
Basically what they're doing with Photon Flare branch in FO skilltree. They don't realize that the skill itself is crap and keep adding extra skills that rely on it. =/

Enforcer MKV
Aug 18, 2013, 10:59 AM
I think the reason Sega is just adding more skills instead of actually rebalancing the existing trees is...

Honestly, I'm not sure. I want to say they're doing it because they don't want to hand out skill reset passes, but they already do this when they add skills.

[Sega. Seriously. Make tree resets for the first tree free already. That was a bullshit decision. I actually want to experiment with my tree instead of being told "lol, look up a build."]

UnLucky
Aug 18, 2013, 11:00 AM
Haha, yeah, every single Photon Flare skill is bad.

Every. One.

Totally worthless.

Can't wait until they release a skill that doubles your damage during PF. (it won't change the rest of the skills one bit)

Darki
Aug 18, 2013, 11:19 AM
I think the reason Sega is just adding more skills instead of actually rebalancing the existing trees is...

Honestly, I'm not sure. I want to say they're doing it because they don't want to hand out skill reset passes, but they already do this when they add skills.

[Sega. Seriously. Make tree resets for the first tree free already. That was a bullshit decision. I actually want to experiment with my tree instead of being told "lol, look up a build."]

Don't they hand those passes anyways, when they add new skills? Honestly, I'd gladly accept a skilltree change without reset passes, I must have like 5 spare ones already.

They should just turn Photon Flare into a stance-type skill.

gigawuts
Aug 18, 2013, 11:20 AM
Yeah, photon flare is them just throwing skills at a skill that is rotten at its core.

Maybe if they add a 5 SP skill to increase duration to 90 seconds. Maybe.

Shadowth117
Aug 18, 2013, 11:50 AM
Yeah, photon flare is them just throwing skills at a skill that is rotten at its core.

Maybe if they add a 5 SP skill to increase duration to 90 seconds. Maybe.

Okay, from someone who plays force very often and has done a lot of experimentation, I can say that Photon Flare....

wait for it

sucks. balls.

No seriously. The thing is, this is a skill that you have to sacrifice massive amounts of potential passive damage for and even when it is active, it maybe does 2-3/4 the damage of a focused tree with one of those techs? And that's not even the worst part. Its only like that when its actually ACTIVE.

So basically you have a ridiculously small time span it can be used in, and even in that time spin its still utterly terrible. I seriously wonder what they were thinking making that skill, let alone enforcing it with recent skill tree changes. You know what the funny thing is though is that they could fix the force tree with it. They could totally make it a standard 10 minute stance and make it % based. They'd probably still want to tweak the elemental stuff so that its less gamebreaking to combine with this (which they probably wouldn't because lol skill tree ac), but it could work.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 18, 2013, 11:52 AM
Don't they hand those passes anyways, when they add new skills? Honestly, I'd gladly accept a skilltree change without reset passes, I must have like 5 spare ones already.

They should just turn Photon Flare into a stance-type skill.

I think there needs to be a new tech based class. The problem is, techer has the other element boost bases covered. Maybe there can be three different sections and one mastery in each element is in the tree? Like under a stance can be extra fire and lightning masteries, another tree dark and ice, and under some bonus light and wind? And under the fire section or whatever can be crit % raise, basically like hunter stances but with tech and the class would be like force but able to tank somewhat at the expense of power. That is, unless one goes for the attack stance, then it's -5% defense if the skill is maxed.

UnLucky
Aug 18, 2013, 11:53 AM
They really need to introduce a test server with free character importing onto it (but not from)

Where all the skills get totally changed every week based on usage stats and player feedback. Upcoming updates always get pushed to the test server before the live one and there is never any compensation for bugs or emergency maintenance (except on the live servers, of course).

Macman
Aug 18, 2013, 01:35 PM
Shutup I like my free triboosts. >:c

Shadowth117
Aug 18, 2013, 01:36 PM
They really need to introduce a test server with free character importing onto it (but not from)

Where all the skills get totally changed every week based on usage stats and player feedback. Upcoming updates always get pushed to the test server before the live one and there is never any compensation for bugs or emergency maintenance (except on the live servers, of course).

That would be pretty cool actually.

@Agem: Please no, the force tree is already split enough as it is. We seriously do not need more elemental mastery crap. Although a new Fo class does seem due given braver is sort of a striking/ranged class and is almost a third tier of that.

I would guess that the next class given that and other things would be a force/ranged class since so far this hasn't been done or been allowed in any reasonable way.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 18, 2013, 01:45 PM
That would be pretty cool actually.

@Agem: Please no, the force tree is already split enough as it is. We seriously do not need more elemental mastery crap. Although a new Fo class does seem due given braver is sort of a striking/ranged class and is almost a third tier of that.

I would guess that the next class given that and other things would be a force/ranged class since so far this hasn't been done or been allowed in any reasonable way.

No not more on the force tree but for a new tech based class, so at best you can have +60% fire or whatever mastery (third tech class gets one mastery of each and under each stance is a set of two masteries, one of two elements like ice and dark being under defense stance, etc., Under those are both status effect boosts and stance enhancements) so it would only be one mastery an element, but have all elements. Theoretically FO/New Class could have 20% freeze boost! Woot! ^_^


One that can tank but not excel as well in damage. Or a choice between a tank or a fast but even more squishy caster. Like a 5% reduction in HP and all defenses if the fast cast stance is maxed out.

If such a class never exists then I'd put PP convert in the force's fire tree since it syncs best with that element and give techer photon flare in that spot instead.

Do you mean like a magic gunner? I'd like to have a good magic ranged weapon that doesn't make the player a sitting duck so can move while using it. Maybe make them magic pistols?

Darki
Aug 18, 2013, 01:51 PM
^ I don't like the idea of having a Force class that has nothing unique to it, and your idea looks more like an "ultimate FO" with all element masteries and less endurance.

But a tech/ranged class would be cool, I suppose. I just hope they don't add any other class after it, I would say add a melee/tech class but for that they should just improve Techer and get done with it.

I wish they had added wands as melee weapons, with PAs, but with the same stats that now and that you'd be able to chain with techs correctly. It would have been nice too, to have damage boosts that depended on mixed attacks, like, a skill that increases the damage of techs if your previous attack was a melee PA, and viceversa. Something like Fury Stance Combo but with mixed abilities instead of JAs.

gigawuts
Aug 18, 2013, 01:53 PM
Tech/ranged class is bound to come, probably with slicers as a more physical variant of talises in some way, like a mix of bows and talises, the same way wands are a more physical variant of rods - just a bit more advanced, since they have experience with plain old number tweaking not being very effective now.

And yes, wands needed PAs they could equip just like techs. Ideally they'd focus on mobility, and have elemental damage like techs, benefiting from masteries and everything. Something like straight charge, something like guilty break, that kind of thing.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 18, 2013, 01:58 PM
^ I don't like the idea of having a Force class that has nothing unique to it, and your idea looks more like an "ultimate FO" with all element masteries and less endurance.

But a tech/ranged class would be cool, I suppose. I just hope they don't add any other class after it, I would say add a melee/tech class but for that they should just improve Techer and get done with it.

I wish they had added wands as melee weapons, with PAs, but with the same stats that now and that you'd be able to chain with techs correctly. It would have been nice too, to have damage boosts that depended on mixed attacks, like, a skill that increases the damage of techs if your previous attack was a melee PA, and viceversa. Something like Fury Stance Combo but with mixed abilities instead of JAs.

Actually it has more endurance and is tanky and has a defense stance to meaningfully increase survivability. It's only less endurance if you get the offense stance.

Techer wasn't designed to tank or take hits. Melee is only good for doing some decent damage to regenerate PP. It's force with more S-ATK instead of T-ATK.

UnLucky
Aug 18, 2013, 02:01 PM
Wand Combo: Increased damage when a PA is followed by a Tech and vice versa.

or failing that,

Wand Gear mk2: Two bars, one fills with melee attacks and increases tech damage, the other builds with tech attacks and increases striking damage.

And that T/R class could be potentially amazing with a Braver sub. It's like exactly what I wanted out of Fo/Ra, only weaker and with no WB.

gigawuts
Aug 18, 2013, 02:03 PM
Actually it has more endurance and is tanky and has a defense stance to meaningfully increase survivability. It's only less endurance if you get the offense stance.

Techer wasn't designed to tank or take hits. Melee is only good for doing some decent damage to regenerate PP. It's force with more S-ATK instead of T-ATK.

You have no freaking idea what you're talking about. Please stop it.

It used to be force with more satk. Now with the new wand skills and satk-oriented wands it packs a hell of a punch.

MetalDude
Aug 18, 2013, 02:10 PM
I'm fine with the idea of melee TE, it just needs way WAY more mobility to make it not completely useless when not soloing.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 18, 2013, 02:20 PM
You have no freaking idea what you're talking about. Please stop it.

It used to be force with more satk. Now with the new wand skills and satk-oriented wands it packs a hell of a punch.

I don't use those skills because I level techer to augment force as a main. Maybe a techer main would benefit but until force can use wands I won't touch the gear addition.

I play force (55) and techer (50) so I have a lot of experience with both classes, but admittedly like I said the techer's points are to augment a force main. I have gear unlocked on two of my techer trees, but only because a couple of SP doesn't hurt to make leveling that much easier.

gigawuts
Aug 18, 2013, 02:22 PM
You're essentially saying that since you spec into the FO support side that it does not have a wand side at all. That is completely wrong on every level. THat's like me saying that force only has fire techs because the lightning techs don't hit hard because I don't use lightning skills at all.

Omega-z
Aug 18, 2013, 05:38 PM
I think the only semi-ok use of PF in the Force Tree would be for a Melee Wand Techer. Since it would boost WG explosion damage and Tech damage. That with Tactic's it could make Freeze Wand's usable. It would be played like Wand Lover's with only the 30 sec. time period with a smaller boost afterward's for another 30 sec's. But instead of only being used on bosses it could be used on mob's, like little trash mob's or large single target that could get effected by an aliment. Now this build won't be better then using any of the melee build's but could be an o.k build for a TE/FO who wanted to melee, which is also not the best either for that combination.

UnLucky
Aug 18, 2013, 06:02 PM
Hey look, I can spend 30 SP to get 150 T-Atk all the time! (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05bdb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbI n0000000lb000009b000009b00000fGBHd0lk00007b000000l b00000f)

Is that better than 30 SP for 400 and 100 T-Atk 25% of the time each, for an average increase of 125 T-Atk over the full two minutes? I don't know!

Zyrusticae
Aug 18, 2013, 07:33 PM
I think the only semi-ok use of PF in the Force Tree would be for a Melee Wand Techer. Since it would boost WG explosion damage and Tech damage. That with Tactic's it could make Freeze Wand's usable. It would be played like Wand Lover's with only the 30 sec. time period with a smaller boost afterward's for another 30 sec's. But instead of only being used on bosses it could be used on mob's, like little trash mob's or large single target that could get effected by an aliment. Now this build won't be better then using any of the melee build's but could be an o.k build for a TE/FO who wanted to melee, which is also not the best either for that combination.
Slightly off-topic, but this post is driving me mad.

The apostrophe S is only used for possession. Please stop using it with EVERY SINGLE PLURAL!

In fact, you know what? You're better off dropping the apostrophe entirely. Seriously, if you can't use it right, don't even bother. It's hideous! :-(

UnLucky
Aug 18, 2013, 07:36 PM
Next you'll point out his usage of the incorrect "affect" and "than," not to mention spelling mistakes and comma splicing.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 18, 2013, 07:39 PM
Slightly off-topic, but this post is driving me mad.

The apostrophe S is only used for possession. Please stop using it with EVERY SINGLE PLURAL!

In fact, you know what? You're better off dropping the apostrophe entirely. Seriously, if you can't use it right, don't even bother. It's hideous! :-(

I agree and wanted to say something. Though you must admit English is inconsistent sometimes. Even many native speakers make the mistake of writing it's for possession when it is contraction, pronoun being inherently possessive doesn't need it the apostrophe. His English other than the apostrophe rule is good but the apostrophe rule is a simple one to remember because of possession and its special logic.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 18, 2013, 07:44 PM
I think the only semi-ok use of PF in the Force Tree would be for a Melee Wand Techer. Since it would boost WG explosion damage and Tech damage. That with Tactic's it could make Freeze Wand's usable. It would be played like Wand Lover's with only the 30 sec. time period with a smaller boost afterward's for another 30 sec's. But instead of only being used on bosses it could be used on mob's, like little trash mob's or large single target that could get effected by an aliment. Now this build won't be better then using any of the melee build's but could be an o.k build for a TE/FO who wanted to melee, which is also not the best either for that combination.

I just barely get an A on Naberius 1 VH timed attack because I foolishly forgot to switch in the proper trees. Left in PP convert, which techer main doesn't need because damage while recovering PP hitting things is satisfying, and I don't have wand gear on my PP convert tree and didn't upgrade to my rare stone shop 10* yet. I am saving a lot of meseta to get it to 10* so I buy full protects until it is maxed.

Omega-z
Aug 18, 2013, 08:05 PM
lol, I was being lazy with all those " 's" that I didn't want to fix them.

Yeah with Effect V.s Affect I get those mixed up at times.

Good catch with "than" since I was comparing the two builds.

Well, in a way English is slowly being forgotten or changing with the lack of writing along side of it.

But back on topic, PF is only good as another expensive form of Wand Lovers but with a T-atk boost instead.

Coatl
Aug 18, 2013, 08:31 PM
I just barely get an A on Naberius 1 VH timed attack because I foolishly forgot to switch in the proper trees. Left in PP convert, which techer main doesn't need because damage while recovering PP hitting things is satisfying, and I don't have wand gear on my PP convert tree and didn't upgrade to my rare stone shop 10* yet. I am saving a lot of meseta to get it to 10* so I buy full protects until it is maxed.

Are you soloing TAs? Don't you need to be in a TA for like 20 minutes before getting a B rank now?

Walkure
Aug 18, 2013, 08:33 PM
I think it's like 30 minutes for an A rank now.

Also, wouldn't recommend using full protects on 10* weapons.

Omega-z
Aug 18, 2013, 08:54 PM
I believe the times are:

Nab I - 26:00 for A
Nab II - 30:00 for A
Lillipia I - 32:00 for A
Amdus I - 36:00 - 40:00 for A*
Sanctum I - 42:00 - 45:00 for A*

*these two I'm not to sure on.

Walkure
Aug 18, 2013, 09:06 PM
What happens past 45 minutes on Sanctum? You get a message saying basically you have 45m for this mission, but is there really no penalty for taking that long?

ArcaneTechs
Aug 18, 2013, 09:41 PM
Put Claws, Slicers and Whips back in and I'll be happy, quit turning my Claw weapons into Wired Lances and Whips have much more crowd control than in PSU

Omega-z
Aug 18, 2013, 11:14 PM
@Walkure - just getting a C* rank for the mission and this is like 10 minutes plus later other wise there is nothing that would stop you from finishing the mission.

* If you were tring to get S/A rank for Clothe CO's then that could be a downside.

Sebastian & PSO
Aug 19, 2013, 02:34 AM
It amazes me how players are so focused on having more weapons and costumes and don't seemed concerned about the fact that this game lacks in the amount of levels (maps) it has and their size.

It is so repetitive and the coastal area was a massive let down. It's never a step up for a series like Phantasy Star to be decreasing the size of its levels.

Yes they can keep updating the game with new maps, but seriously coastal area having area 1 & 2 which are tiny, with no real design process put into place is pathetic. I don't give a fuck if my character is only allowed to hold ONE gun, just give me a well thought out god damned area that doesn't end in five minutes time! The coast (beach) area in PSOEp2-GC was a million times better then this. Not to mention the moutain and jungle area were beautifully designed and tied in for its day and age, yet something like 10 years down the track we are given a tiny coastal area that changes weather patterns every 1 minute and lacks just about everything. Hell no.

How about this game start focusing on Level and Enemy Design before it starts creating new weapons.

Darki
Aug 19, 2013, 03:30 AM
So, does it amaze you that in a thread about class issues we talk about, *gasp* class issues?

I'm sorry, buddy, but this is not a "Let's talk about EVERYTHING that is going wrong with the game" thread. If you wanna talk about map issues, instead of complaining in an unrelated thread you could have started your own, and you'd have counted many of us willing to join the discussion as well. Coming here to bitch about something unrelated is just silly and unnecesary.

I mostly agree with what you said. I don't agree with the YUNO tone, nor with the PSO1 baww part.

Simperheve
Aug 19, 2013, 05:01 AM
I'm not finding the lack of FO Weapons a problem at the minute. If anything, it means i can use the same weapon for a longer time. And some of the weapons are better with some techs than other (I find Talises are better with Zondeel for example since you can set up safe captures without getting hit by the boss).

UnLucky
Aug 19, 2013, 08:32 AM
I just barely get an A on Naberius 1 VH timed attack because I foolishly forgot to switch in the proper trees. Left in PP convert, which techer main doesn't need because damage while recovering PP hitting things is satisfying, and I don't have wand gear on my PP convert tree and didn't upgrade to my rare stone shop 10* yet. I am saving a lot of meseta to get it to 10* so I buy full protects until it is maxed.

The hell does this have anything to do with the post you quoted?

deahamlet
Aug 19, 2013, 09:24 AM
/say something stupid
/people call it stupid
/play it off like they're being sensitive when you have nothing to follow up with

I, too, can be an idiot.

I didn't INSULT anyone, but YOU did. So I'm not sure what high ground you have to stand on.
And people will take a weapon or PA that is 10 DPS higher most times then use 2-3 different ones to be at 10-15 DPS higher in each situation... because lazy. People will also argue that "use THIS or you are gimp" even for 10 points of dps difference.

People wanting to be optimal is one thing, the entire community being OVER AND OVER again in every thread "do this or you're gimp" is the problem. But yes, I do think no company can win with variety unless they make every single weapon and PA a blah bland of same old stuff. Because if it's not the same DPS all the time and the same utility/range all the time as the "top choice" that everyone calls you gimp if you don't play, the community will ignore all the options that are not top DPS.

All the responses above yours were not constructive, just whining. I responded with the only way to respond to non-constructive whiny responses... LAUGH.

And you decided to insult me. So mature of you. Such brilliance, it's blinding.

isCasted
Aug 19, 2013, 09:32 AM
One thing that seems illogical to me is inability to use PAs you learned with multiclass weapons of neither sub- nor main class - it contradicts whole idea of learning. What should be really locked to main/subclass is ability to actually learn. Then even requirements for learning would make sense.

gigawuts
Aug 19, 2013, 09:41 AM
I didn't INSULT anyone, but YOU did. So I'm not sure what high ground you have to stand on.

And you decided to insult me. So mature of you. Such brilliance, it's blinding.

Welcome to the internet. Or, no, the real world.



And people will take a weapon or PA that is 10 DPS higher most times then use 2-3 different ones to be at 10-15 DPS higher in each situation... because lazy. People will also argue that "use THIS or you are gimp" even for 10 points of dps difference.

People wanting to be optimal is one thing, the entire community being OVER AND OVER again in every thread "do this or you're gimp" is the problem. But yes, I do think no company can win with variety unless they make every single weapon and PA a blah bland of same old stuff. Because if it's not the same DPS all the time and the same utility/range all the time as the "top choice" that everyone calls you gimp if you don't play, the community will ignore all the options that are not top DPS.

All the responses above yours were not constructive, just whining. I responded with the only way to respond to non-constructive whiny responses... LAUGH.What does this actually have to do with the thread? You're talking about high ground then talking about how you laugh at the expense of others? Why are you whining louder than anyone else about something that isn't even related to the topic? Nobody's talking about-

I don't even-

Simperheve
Aug 19, 2013, 10:08 AM
One thing that seems illogical to me is inability to use PAs you learned with multiclass weapons of neither sub- nor main class - it contradicts whole idea of learning. What should be really locked to main/subclass is ability to actually learn. Then even requirements for learning would make sense.

Problem with that is that you can easily change your class, so you'd just change your class to it, learn it, then you'd have the same problem. Doesn't seem like theres much point in putting in that kind of restriction :/

isCasted
Aug 19, 2013, 10:16 AM
Problem with that is that you can easily change your class, so you'd just change your class to it, learn it, then you'd have the same problem. Doesn't seem like theres much point in putting in that kind of restriction :/

But there are stat restrictions. This means we would have to reach a certain level as that class before we could learn some of its PAs.

gigawuts
Aug 19, 2013, 10:26 AM
The problem there is the allclass weapon system. In PSO1 the role of PAs was covered by actual weapons, for example a long range attack was completely unavailable to a HUcast because it couldn't use even one weapon with rifle range. Every single other class had a rifle range weapon, with a number of rifles being for lots of different classes. Some were for RA and FO (Bringer's Rifle), others were for almost all meatbags (Holy Ray), etc. But not a single one was accessible via HUcast.

The loss of long range damage at all was a drawback of the class.

But now that kind of balancing has been relegated to PAs, and you need to be able to use your subclass's PAs, with the specific weapon you use them on mattering much less. Your main/sub classes have PAs and skills as their advantages, and the lack of PAs and skills they can use is their disadvantage. This is why they need to just abandon the allclass system and give us all (or preferably some) weapons from our subs.

The other part of this issue is that some classes very plainly offer better damage and other advantages than others when used as a sub. A HUnewearl wasn't 50% weaker than a HUcast, and that's a good thing, so what's the deal with FI/TE being about 50% weaker than a FI/HU? Techs do not make up for the loss of HU's skilltree. That's just plain terrible balancing right there. HU needs a nerf, TE needs a boost for physical weapons (maybe an active skill to change your weapon to all elements for a bit to get you the element weak hit bonus? maybe during territory burst?), etc. They could really do anything they wanted, but they just need to do something to make it more viable.

Yes, every class combination should approach viability in some way. They don't all need to be exactly equal, but they should get more than a conditional 20% while HU offers a full fucking 100% all the time against everything.

Simperheve
Aug 19, 2013, 10:33 AM
The problem there is the allclass weapon system. In PSO1 the role of PAs was covered by actual weapons, for example a long range attack was completely unavailable to a HUcast because it couldn't use even one weapon with rifle range. Every single other class had a rifle range weapon, with a number of rifles being for lots of different classes. Some were for RA and FO (Bringer's Rifle), others were for almost all meatbags (Holy Ray), etc. But not a single one was accessible via HUcast.

The loss of long range damage at all was a drawback of the class.

But now that kind of balancing has been relegated to PAs, and you need to be able to use your subclass's PAs, with the specific weapon you use them on mattering much less. Your main/sub classes have PAs and skills as their advantages, and the lack of PAs and skills they can use is their disadvantage. This is why they need to just abandon the allclass system and give us all (or preferably some) weapons from our subs.

The other part of this issue is that some classes very plainly offer better damage and other advantages than others when used as a sub. A HUnewearl wasn't 50% weaker than a HUcast, and that's a good thing, so what's the deal with FI/TE being about 50% weaker than a FI/HU? Techs do not make up for the loss of HU's skilltree. That's just plain terrible balancing right there. HU needs a nerf, TE needs a boost for physical weapons (maybe an active skill to change your weapon to all elements for a bit to get you the element weak hit bonus? maybe during territory burst?), etc. They could really do anything they wanted, but they just need to do something to make it more viable.

Yes, every class combination should approach viability in some way. They don't all need to be exactly equal, but they should get more than a conditional 20% while HU offers a full fucking 100% all the time against everything.

I thought Techer was supposed to be for more fortified/melee oriented spellcasters? But either way fighter and hunter are both (individually anyway) tailored towards front line combat, so a FI/HU is going to be a lot stronger than a FI/TE (just because hybrid builds are always weaker. FOmars in PSO were great Hybrids but in terms of stat spread were probably the weakest in most if not all departments)

gigawuts
Aug 19, 2013, 11:06 AM
Well, that's the thing. TE offers the combat support that a HUnewearl offered. If you want to split hairs, which you apparently do, then pretend I said FI/FO and look how nothing in the post changes whatsoever. Actually, scratch that - you lose Element Weak Hit and don't benefit from its 20% bonus to damage when your weapon has the correct element. You're actually worse at melee if you go HU/FO.

A hybrid should not be at 50% effectiveness of its two things. It should be at worst 75% effectiveness, using both types of offense in tandem to pick up the slack.

I understand what you're saying - I really do. But you're missing what I'm saying. You're saying it does work a way, and I'm saying it should work another way. I'm saying there is zero practical reason to play a hybrid combination while maining a melee class, but there should be, and the only thing really limiting it is the awful skilltrees.

Darki
Aug 19, 2013, 11:36 AM
Hybrids would be awesome even being at 50% of their capacity with each class, if they had a way to combine their abilities.

I've been playing a FO/HU from day one, and I'm really satisfied with my gameplay. I use techs as a main source of burst damage while I use melee for mobility and other gimmicks, but what it feels is not like I'm being a "hybrid", just that I can be a FO at a times and a HU at other times. There's no synergy in between.

Truth to be told, I don't use any melee weapons with TATK, mostly because I've never been able to afford any (irl I mean, never got spare to go Premium), so I suppose I could improve my situation getting me a Coat Edge D, but I don't see thast happening any time soon.

That's why I mentioned before that it would be awesome that there were skills that improved this situation. A skill that increased the damage of attacks wben combining melee with techs would be awesome, and we could add some perks to it. For example reducing the time of charging techs if they were used after a PA.

UnLucky
Aug 19, 2013, 11:59 AM
I've been playing a FO/HU from day one, and I'm really satisfied with my gameplay. I use techs as a main source of burst damage while I use melee for mobility and other gimmicks, but what it feels is not like I'm being a "hybrid", just that I can be a FO at a times and a HU at other times. There's no synergy in between.
That's pretty much how it is. You're not like a HUnewearl which is exactly like a HUcast but with lower stats. You're half of one.

For cutting your effectiveness in half, you're not gaining back half in another area. You're just stuck at half effectiveness at any given moment.

You can be a gimp Hunter or a gimp Force. You switch between these roles, but you're never really both at the same time.

And I don't mean "you'll never be quite like a specialized build" gimp. I mean "a full party of hybrids are as effective as two specialized players" gimp.

Cause simply being slightly weaker is ok. You've got a ton of versatility at your disposal since you can't switch classes in the middle of a mission. It'd be great if you could do good damage both close and far, have good survivability, with good support, and infinite self heals.

But you don't. You have shit damage all around and shit support. Instead of great damage in one area, you have no damage anywhere. What a choice!

Zyrusticae
Aug 19, 2013, 12:03 PM
All of this wouldn't be so much of an issue if all the +damage skills worked across all damage types instead of being S-Atk or R-Atk or T-Atk-specific. Hell, even just giving the damage-specific skills a "increases all other damage types by half this amount" would help a lot (like Fury Stance + JA Advance + Fury Stance Up + Combo Up giving +50% damage to techniques, for example).

Instead, some classes have loads of synergy while others have none, and it's kind of nonsensical in which ones work with which (for example, hunter working with all melee and ranged but not with techs, while ranger only really synergizes with gunner and bow braver because WHA only works with R-Atk, and so on and so forth). On the one hand, it prevents things like hunters being the de facto best subclass for everything, but on the other hand that only happens because the balance between skill trees is shot to hell to begin with.

They should really redo all the skill trees, preferably with an eye towards cross-class synergy.

IzzyData
Aug 19, 2013, 12:08 PM
Just allow the use of subclass weapon types. I don't really see what the issue is there.

Darki
Aug 19, 2013, 12:43 PM
That's pretty much how it is. You're not like a HUnewearl which is exactly like a HUcast but with lower stats. You're half of one.

For cutting your effectiveness in half, you're not gaining back half in another area. You're just stuck at half effectiveness at any given moment.

You can be a gimp Hunter or a gimp Force. You switch between these roles, but you're never really both at the same time.

And I don't mean "you'll never be quite like a specialized build" gimp. I mean "a full party of hybrids are as effective as two specialized players" gimp.

Cause simply being slightly weaker is ok. You've got a ton of versatility at your disposal since you can't switch classes in the middle of a mission. It'd be great if you could do good damage both close and far, have good survivability, with good support, and infinite self heals.

But you don't. You have shit damage all around and shit support. Instead of great damage in one area, you have no damage anywhere. What a choice!

I think youy're putting it a bit too extreme, even though I mostly agree with you, or maybe it's just that I come from playing Wartecher in PSU and the improvement is abysmal, even if still not good enough. My damage of course is lower, but in PSU, for example, I was constantly aware of the bad quality of my performance. In this game, I'm comfortable with my class. I might envy seeing people getting higher numbers than me, but you'd have to count in that I don't have that good gear either, because I don't have time to farm for hours, and I don't have money to waste on AC.

As I said, I don't really miss doing more numbers, and I don't like pure classes, so my "choice" is simply to play the most enjoyable class combination for me, which is what's important. I don't miss doing more numbers, *as it is*, I miss that hybrids don't have a better synergy to be able to deal those high numbers without turning them into atomic powerhouses in both roles.

Sakarisei
Aug 19, 2013, 03:32 PM
But you don't. You have shit damage all around and shit support. Instead of great damage in one area, you have no damage anywhere. What a choice!

Don't understimate it because when i play XQ with HU/Fis or FI/HUs, they're the first dying instantly with bosses or other things, while hybrids can react with FO or TE weapons, using Mirage Escape and then use Resta, even it there were self resta or not.

I think you assume that hybrids haven't got value in this game, but eh, you must be one of those players who just use two pas or techs and that's it, end of story.

People like you is one of the main reasons that they leave the game because the game is extremely unbalanced and the people doesn't want a game with no difficult, so... you can check some japanese web gamers and see the opinion of the japanese guys, demonstrating that PSO2 has got some infamy instead the fame that many people think about this game, incluiding about .

Oh, of course, if you think that i only play HU/TE, of course not. I play too other class combos and i know perfectly the functions of those ones.

The problem of this game is that people only wants killing mobs and bosses instantly, and that's a great mistake while making ingame. It's illogical seeing near always HU/FI (or viceversa), RA/HU, FO/TE or FO/Fi, while with the subclass system we should see a great variety of players who prefers one thing or other, but because there is a great amount of useless skills and weapons, it ocurrs that many people leave the game near instantly. That's not a joke, i've got friends who had played pso2, and because their power were extremely big, they left the game because these problem.

It's not funny playing for killing mobs the same manner of ants...

Challenge is important, but a great balance of the classes and the sub-class system too...


I miss that hybrids don't have a better synergy to be able to deal those high numbers without turning them into atomic powerhouses in both roles.

No only the hybrids have got serious problems in PSO2. How about tanks and supports? These roles should be important in this game, but because they have lowered the defense requirements, there's a non-sense of making a tank and/or a support with heavy armor because this reason. Furthermore, other problem that's currently in PSO2, is about people who wants soloing the game...

People nowadays doesn't want know and play with other people, and the main reason is... unafortunately, the lack of the people interested in tanks and supports. That's all.

Greetings.

Darki
Aug 19, 2013, 04:36 PM
I think the problem with that is the fact that SEGA has created, and keeps improving, a very dynamic action-based combat system, but maintains classic RPG character archetypes without realizing that they are obsolete in this game.

A tank is useful in a game like Ragnarök Online or World of Warcraft, where enemies walk in front of their target and "engage" combat on the spot. While the idea of a character eating all the damage of a boss while all the DPS builds destroy it isn't necesarily obsolete in PSO2, the problem is that enemies are too mobile and dynamic to work just having a character with high endurance and a provoke skill. Most of the enemies worth a tank will dance all over the map using very wide attacks that will hit anybody in their way, even if it's focused on you.

Same goes with support: a character with static area based supportive spells work on a game where once combat is engaged, enemies and players won't move much. In this game, buffing and healing is very annoying and innefective because people is all the time running around.

In order for old roles to be effective, they should have been adapted to the new combat system. If an inmobile tank is useless because enemies are too dynamic, maybe having skills that absorb or shield the damage dealt to allies would be much more useful than plain defense (for any old RO player, I'm thinking of Devotion/Sacrifice). Maybe skills that act like Katana Combat, but with guarding and/or buffing, would be extremely useful: think of a skill that makes you automatically dash in front of an ally to guard from an attack and protect them from it, or to buff them.

For support, I just don't understand why SEGA didn't implement player-targetted spells. You can find them in every game except this. If Resta, Anti, Shifta and Deband were spells that acted like Rafoie, for example, but on players, support would be much easier.

But for all these ideas it would be necessary to allow for targetting other players, and that's something that doesn't seem easily integrated in the game. Maybe if there was a function that switched between "target enemy mode" and "target player mode" this would be a good option. With this, even using Talis for supportive techs would be much easier.

Walkure
Aug 19, 2013, 04:54 PM
The problem with tanking and support in PSO2 is that the best defense is a stellar offense.

Oh no, Banther's swiping at someone. What should you do?

A FO or TE could use resta and heal him as he takes damage. It won't guarantee that he'll survive, although the heal ticks from a resta should be about the same as most of Banther's hits.

A HU or sub HU could use warcry to divert attention. It has no guaranteed effect, since one of his attacks aimed at the warcrier could still hit the player.

Or, instead, you could walk up, break his fucking arm, and punch him in the face until he stops moving. This immediately stops banther, diverts aggro to you, and helps end the mission quicker.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 19, 2013, 04:55 PM
I think the problem with that is the fact that SEGA has created, and keeps improving, a very dynamic action-based combat system, but maintains classic RPG character archetypes without realizing that they are obsolete in this game.

A tank is useful in a game like Ragnarök Online or World of Warcraft, where enemies walk in front of their target and "engage" combat on the spot. While the idea of a character eating all the damage of a boss while all the DPS builds destroy it isn't necesarily obsolete in PSO2, the problem is that enemies are too mobile and dynamic to work just having a character with high endurance and a provoke skill. Most of the enemies worth a tank will dance all over the map using very wide attacks that will hit anybody in their way, even if it's focused on you.

Same goes with support: a character with static area based supportive spells work on a game where once combat is engaged, enemies and players won't move much. In this game, buffing and healing is very annoying and innefective because people is all the time running around.

In order for old roles to be effective, they should have been adapted to the new combat system. If an inmobile tank is useless because enemies are too dynamic, maybe having skills that absorb or shield the damage dealt to allies would be much more useful than plain defense (for any old RO player, I'm thinking of Devotion/Sacrifice). Maybe skills that act like Katana Combat, but with guarding and/or buffing, would be extremely useful: think of a skill that makes you automatically dash in front of an ally to guard from an attack and protect them from it, or to buff them.

For support, I just don't understand why SEGA didn't implement player-targetted spells. You can find them in every game except this. If Resta, Anti, Shifta and Deband were spells that acted like Rafoie, for example, but on players, support would be much easier.

But for all these ideas it would be necessary to allow for targetting other players, and that's something that doesn't seem easily integrated in the game. Maybe if there was a function that switched between "target enemy mode" and "target player mode" this would be a good option. With this, even using Talis for supportive techs would be much easier.

Though the deband repeat in Phantasy Star II original was kind of cheap. To this day I still can't beat Mother Brain in Phantasy Star II without it, but that's the nature of those games, Phantasy Star Online 2 though is a completely different genre.

Sakarisei
Aug 19, 2013, 06:18 PM
The problem with tanking and support in PSO2 is that the best defense is a stellar offense.

But the best attack is a stellar defense too so... it's pretty useless just focusing a team in attack, if they dunno how defending themselves.

The problem of this game is you can get 0 defense (Or, in other words, basic defense) and kill everything without effort, mainly because the mobs and bosses are extremely weak for an online mode. Doing it causes that people will just make full offensive chars without worrying in carrying heavy armor for it.

Before lowering the defense requirements, at least it was useful raising 50 in s-def, r-def or t-def for getting more survivability and more resistance in your char. Unafortunately, you can equip any armor without efforts, making a full offensive without thinking in raising defense.

If i made a game when you don't need protecting your party partners, i hadn't put defense or support skills like Guard Stance or Warcry if no one needs people specialized in defense. That's some of sense of common, that's all.


Oh no, Banther's swiping at someone. What should you do?

A FO or TE could use resta and heal him as he takes damage. It won't guarantee that he'll survive, although the heal ticks from a resta should be about the same as most of Banther's hits.

A HU or sub HU could use warcry to divert attention. It has no guaranteed effect, since one of his attacks aimed at the warcrier could still hit the player.

Or, instead, you could walk up, break his fucking arm, and punch him in the face until he stops moving. This immediately stops banther, diverts aggro to you, and helps end the mission quicker.

I know the theory, and of course, before lowering defense requirements, i had done it many times, but people doesn't think in it. Perhaps i'm extremely negative, i admit it, but nowadays people in this game aren't interested in tanks, supports and playing in partner, even the party were full DPS. Unlike other Phantasy Star games, PSO2 is not a game when cooperative and teamwork are important. PSO2 is a time attack game when the most important part of that game is getting the most powerful class to clear bosses and scenarios extremely fast.

Most japanese people hates a game when difficult is non-existant, and that's a great problem for the future of PSO2.


Though the deband repeat in Phantasy Star II original was kind of cheap. To this day I still can't beat Mother Brain in Phantasy Star II without it, but that's the nature of those games, Phantasy Star Online 2 though is a completely different genre.

I agree. Nowadays people are not interested in being buffed by Shifta or Deband. If you remember PSO, almost no HU or RAs had got the recklesness of trying killing Olga Flow or even Saint-Million if you hadn't got a FO which could buff you. At least in Online mode. It was possible clearing it with a party of 2 players, if there were at least a FO, but even it, it was extremely hard, unless both members had got very nice equip for it.

This game is not made for being a cooperative one. Instead, this game is made for making time attacks, just it.

UnLucky
Aug 19, 2013, 06:32 PM
But the best attack is a stellar defense too so...
NOPE.

Sakarisei
Aug 19, 2013, 06:45 PM
NOPE.

No, of course not, master strategist :P

Galax
Aug 19, 2013, 08:43 PM
The best attack is a stellar defense

This was true in PSO1, where there were mobs that would DESTROY you if you couldn't take their attacks/didn't know their patterns(COUGH COUGH EPISODE II COUGH HACK COUGH). In PSO2, where any given class has the potential to wipe out every mob in seconds, and most of mobs attacks are striking based, mostly everything but SDEF has fallen by the wayside, with R or TDEF units coming in as "situational equips", like that gunslash you might carry just in case.

Seriously, build to offense, destroy everything in 30 seconds, and add defense as a boss-fight afterthought. You'll be fine.

EDIT:

Now the reason I was going to post in the first place before I looked at the replies before this one...

I was reading pages earlier, and I saw the mention of a chance at a new magic class.

The only thing I'd really LOVE to see is a type of melee-focused Force...

But unarmed. Putting techs on slots without a weapon changing how you attack. For instance...

Left click slot: Punch. Right click slot: Let's say Nazan. Then, it cycles like a melee weapon, so let's say in the second one, Megid, and the third is Foie.

Your three-strike combo would do a pushing wind punch, a Blink-esque jump to the mob for a dark kick, and finally an explosion punch with fire. Each tech would influence how you punch and kick. Fire techs would maybe focus on explosions; Ice would focus on slowing and holding; Lightning would focus on being EXTREMELY fast and darting from mob to mob, a la Katana Combat; Wind would focus on pushing and jumping attacks (put razan on pallet, leap in to the air and slam down<3) ; Light would...well I don't know. Mirage maybe? Dark though I think definitely gets to focus on Blink/teleports.

Darki
Aug 19, 2013, 10:18 PM
I approve of that class.


The problem with tanking and support in PSO2 is that the best defense is a stellar offense.

Oh no, Banther's swiping at someone. What should you do?

A FO or TE could use resta and heal him as he takes damage. It won't guarantee that he'll survive, although the heal ticks from a resta should be about the same as most of Banther's hits.

A HU or sub HU could use warcry to divert attention. It has no guaranteed effect, since one of his attacks aimed at the warcrier could still hit the player.

Or, instead, you could walk up, break his fucking arm, and punch him in the face until he stops moving. This immediately stops banther, diverts aggro to you, and helps end the mission quicker.

Why is it so hard for people to get that some players like those roles? "the best defense is a good offense"... Sure. I've seen many FI/HUs drop like ants on many bosses because they didn't even spare a point for Iron Will.

I think, same as before, that the solution is not to fuck with builds that already exist simply because they made a cheap move in the battle system. HU was created with the intention of having the possibility of a tank. Techer was created for the support role in mind. You're basically telling me that instead of fixing builds and skills that SEGA alrerady put in the game, we should just ignore them, get the same all-winner skills and not to worry about anything else and do everybody the same. Sure, that's what *fixed* PSU, didn't it? Oh, wait. This is exactly what Sakarisei is talking about, people with that attitude. The damage is alreadu done. There's already tanks in PSO2, there's already support classes in PSO2. There are three options here:

1) You revise and improve the elements related to those roles to make them work better, so that for example, healing or full-time supporting an ally that's getting pounced by a Panther or tanking the boss is as effective over time than just brutalizing the enemy.

2) Erase/modify these skills so that people don't try those builds, and realize how much they suck, become dissapointed with this game and eventually leave it. So that way they don't waste my fucking time trying a class that sucks and that will always suck just because SEGA is too lazy to do anything and most of the fanbase is too selfish to ask for balance, because their fav class is OP so they're happy. And the worst part is that since that class is something special for me, for any other reason, I will grow attached to it and will play it even if it sucks, effectively wasting my fucking time on it.

3) Don't do antything and have pretty much half of the skilltree of several classes just for decoration, ignore the constant critics of people who (rightfully) complain about SEGA not supporting roles that they implemented, and overall have the same builds rule the game while the rest of the classes stay sucking balls and ignored except for us players that like even underdeveloped classes "for fun".

Guess which one SEGA is most likely to use.

As we were discussing a while ago, the main problem is SEGA's tendency to create content and not balancing it to keep it on par of the rest. It doesn't need to be perfect. But if you're going to have a game where three or four class combinations with a single build each will be "top-tier" and the rest will be "crap-tier", why the flying fuck did you give us the ability to modify our builds, or 42 freaking class combinations? Selfishly talking, it's more work for them. Either cut the classes to the three winners and have everybody be the same boring shit, or fix the rest.

UnLucky
Aug 20, 2013, 04:43 AM
Good on you if you like sacrificing your damage to reduce completely avoidable damage.

I've seen many more Fi/Hu who never die. Sure, there'll be a Gunner or Techer or whatever that repeatedly dies over and over again to the point where you all run out of Moons solely on account of this one player. Would them building their character more defensively really help? They can take one extra hit from full HP without dying. Congrats.

So being dead means you deal zero DPS, and anyone reviving you also takes a pause. But during the time that they are alive they'll more than make up for that downtime by killing much faster than a defensively built player (who can also die).

Like even if it were a perfect trade, dealing double damage vs. taking half damage, the tank leaves enemies alive twice as long to suffer twice as many attacks to only break even with the glass cannon class in damage received! The pure DPS class might die in one hit if they make a mistake, but the defensive player will be stunlocked or juggled until death. It makes no difference!

It's simply not worth sacrificing so much damage to be slightly sturdier when you can dodge for free or get Just Guard for a fraction of the cost. And so long as you play with at least one other person, you've got infinite lives.

Am I saying it should stay like that? No, I've been sharing my complaints and suggestions for a while now. But that's how it is, and likely how it will continue to be. I personally enjoy playing the support role in team games and "watching health bars" but the best way to do that in PSO2 is to mash the Moon hotkey whenever it lights up. I've long since stopped trying to buff and heal because of how hilariously ineffectual it is.

Darki
Aug 20, 2013, 06:56 AM
I get your point, but I don't really believe that there's anybody that makes no mistakes, ever. Not only that, but having Iron Will behind you allows to be bolder when attacking, because you know that even if you're smashing a Banther on the face with Over End while it pounces, you will probably survive to tell the tale.

In any case, I'm just talking about the ideal situation. In other MMOs, supportive characters are sometimes capable of buffing other players over twice their usual damage output. That would mean that in a party with a support character, you lose one spot to double the power of all the rest.

I don't see anything wrong with this. I don't see why wouldn't they do this in PSO2 as well, maybe slightly tuned off for MPAs. Techer could have been a class that was half OP support, where if you take the build you're pretty much useless in DPS terms but your presence in a party makes it up for it with the increase in power, and the other half of it more specialized on the melee/tech hybrid nature of the class. It would even make sense considering how short-lived are the buffs, that would keep the techer busy all the time getting them on.

As in case of tanks, as I've mentioned, they could do many useful things. They could "lock" enemies paralyzed in a position for X time while it drains their PP, so a boss doesn't move for some seconds even if it isn't stunned. They could absorb the damage from allies. They could be inmune to flinch, etc.

I suppose dreaming is cheap, but it's sad that they don't improve these classes, when for some it would take very simple means.

UnLucky
Aug 20, 2013, 03:09 PM
With 5-10 more SP, and no further damage skills to get, Hunters can easily get a bit of both. IW or Automate are great defensive supplements to an otherwise purely offensive build and playstyle. But they're too expensive now. And you don't need to be perfect unless you're soloing everything.

Buffs would be fine as they are if they simply went off total stats as opposed to only the base. 10 SP in Shifta Advance for a 5% damage buff for everyone? All you need to do is catch one other person and it's already worth it, let alone buffing your entire MPA (if that were at all doable).

Skyly HUmar
Aug 20, 2013, 03:24 PM
too lazy to read all of this topic lol. But my ideal weapon system would be to go back to the psp2 way where you chose the weapons you use. And also to chose the skill trees you want.

So you would be your preferred class combo, with the ability to pick which weapons you wanted (even ones that dont pertain to your class combo).

It seemed to work so well in psp2. In this game once i learned that i would not be able to use fi weps i just stopped caring about the class in general. It was pointless to get all the best weps for fi if i never planned to main the class. And since all class weps are either too weak or too rare the all class wep system just falls flat on it's ass.

EDIT and i agree with unlucky, offense>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>defense in this game just because of how laughably easy everything is to avoid unless you're flat-out just playing melee for the first time.

AgemFrostMage
Aug 20, 2013, 05:04 PM
I get your point, but I don't really believe that there's anybody that makes no mistakes, ever. Not only that, but having Iron Will behind you allows to be bolder when attacking, because you know that even if you're smashing a Banther on the face with Over End while it pounces, you will probably survive to tell the tale.

In any case, I'm just talking about the ideal situation. In other MMOs, supportive characters are sometimes capable of buffing other players over twice their usual damage output. That would mean that in a party with a support character, you lose one spot to double the power of all the rest.

I don't see anything wrong with this. I don't see why wouldn't they do this in PSO2 as well, maybe slightly tuned off for MPAs. Techer could have been a class that was half OP support, where if you take the build you're pretty much useless in DPS terms but your presence in a party makes it up for it with the increase in power, and the other half of it more specialized on the melee/tech hybrid nature of the class. It would even make sense considering how short-lived are the buffs, that would keep the techer busy all the time getting them on.

As in case of tanks, as I've mentioned, they could do many useful things. They could "lock" enemies paralyzed in a position for X time while it drains their PP, so a boss doesn't move for some seconds even if it isn't stunned. They could absorb the damage from allies. They could be inmune to flinch, etc.

I suppose dreaming is cheap, but it's sad that they don't improve these classes, when for some it would take very simple means.

Swords against banthers... and overend of all skills? Please tell me you're joking -_-

Techer is good as long as you ignore most of the actives (except for PP convert) and buff up skills unless you absolutely need them to unlock something else. PP convert though syncs best with elements like fire and ice so it's situational. Not needed for dark since it regenerates while charging anyway.

Gardios
Aug 20, 2013, 05:14 PM
As in case of tanks, as I've mentioned, they could do many useful things. They could "lock" enemies paralyzed in a position for X time while it drains their PP, so a boss doesn't move for some seconds even if it isn't stunned. They could absorb the damage from allies. They could be inmune to flinch, etc.

I suppose dreaming is cheap, but it's sad that they don't improve these classes, when for some it would take very simple means.

After getting Massive Hunter and Absorption I'm not trusting SEGA anymore when it comes to improving classes. I'm still flabbergasted at how they could think those were good additions to the tank tree as they are right now. :'(

Skyly HUmar
Aug 20, 2013, 05:38 PM
Swords against banthers... and overend of all skills? Please tell me you're joking -_-



nope, thats actually a good thing.

Sakarisei
Aug 20, 2013, 07:17 PM
too lazy to read all of this topic lol. But my ideal weapon system would be to go back to the psp2 way where you chose the weapons you use. And also to chose the skill trees you want.

So you would be your preferred class combo, with the ability to pick which weapons you wanted (even ones that dont pertain to your class combo).

Yeah, i love that system too, incluiding that i would like seeing a new PS with these customization system. Unafortunately, if we put it in PSO2, that's the meaning of seeing always HU/FIs or FI/HUs with just Swords and DS, spamming only Over End and Deadly Archer, and because it, i prefer that SEGA makes a new game than seeing it...


It seemed to work so well in psp2. In this game once i learned that i would not be able to use fi weps i just stopped caring about the class in general. It was pointless to get all the best weps for fi if i never planned to main the class. And since all class weps are either too weak or too rare the all class wep system just falls flat on it's ass.

But... if we put strong all class weapons, although it helps a lot of to hybrid players (Incluiding me, because i use wands too...), that thing translates into HU/FIs with just Sword and DS and GU/RAs with every ranged weapon, excluiding Bullet Bows.

Of course, i prefer seeing more all class weapons with good quality, and not the bad ones...[/quote]


EDIT and i agree with unlucky, offense>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>defense in this game just because of how laughably easy everything is to avoid unless you're flat-out just playing melee for the first time.

Unafortunately i admit it. Oh, of course, don't think about raising def stats in your mags...


Swords against banthers... and overend of all skills? Please tell me you're joking -_-

Lol no. Play more times this game, and you can see every HU that use always these PA, even if they die... but eh, i prefer spamming Sonic Arrow than Over End because attack speed, but yes, in this game, numbers are the king in this game so... you know.


Techer is good as long as you ignore most of the actives (except for PP convert) and buff up skills unless you absolutely need them to unlock something else. PP convert though syncs best with elements like fire and ice so it's situational. Not needed for dark since it regenerates while charging anyway.

Well, Territory Burst can help you, specially if you use techs such as Zondeel, Megiverse or Zanverse. It's not useless, although you can ignore it... if you want. About PP Convert, that depends of your style. I've got synergy with some HU PAs like Sonic Arrow or Guilty Break, so it's not useful only in techs, although it depends of your style.


After getting Massive Hunter and Absorption I'm not trusting SEGA anymore when it comes to improving classes. I'm still flabbergasted at how they could think those were good additions to the tank tree as they are right now. :'(

If you knew what things i know about SoJ... more of one were surprising with these people, although that thing is more for Sakai than for the programmers... you know.

Because they've converted PSO2 into an advergame (Or advertising game), don't get surprised if you see a lot of illogical things in the updates. And finally, about those skills, until we see a Sakai that improves and fix the game extremely serious, we can forget about making tanks with these skills. You know, numbers, many solores and... thats it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally, i'll repeat that the main problem of this game is that PSO2 is now a time attack game which the most important thing for a char is getting the best dps that anyone can imagine for destroying mobs and bosses instantly.

The GP event of this year is a reflection that Sakai wants in his game. You know, running the same similarly to frenzied dogs which hunts their target extremely easy...

Skyly HUmar
Aug 20, 2013, 10:27 PM
Thats the thing though, we have lambda aristin atm, thats not that hard to find and its pretty strong (i neglected to mention that the only class with easy to find/cheap and good all class weps is HU) so you have fi mains that do that anyway, the way i see it having stronger all class weps would just balance out some of that.

milranduil
Aug 20, 2013, 11:35 PM
I agree. Nowadays people are not interested in being buffed by Shifta or Deband. If you remember PSO, almost no HU or RAs had got the recklesness of trying killing Olga Flow or even Saint-Million if you hadn't got a FO which could buff you. At least in Online mode. It was possible clearing it with a party of 2 players, if there were at least a FO, but even it, it was extremely hard, unless both members had got very nice equip for it.

This game is not made for being a cooperative one. Instead, this game is made for making time attacks, just it.

Or you could just have Twins on your mag, PB, and then obliterate either one solo regardless of class (slicer, needle, gizonde/rabarta). And don't say you need godly equips... spread needle was an easy drop and anyone who knew how to play any type of HU had a charge slicer 50h.

Skyly HUmar
Aug 21, 2013, 12:04 AM
Or you could just have Twins on your mag, PB, and then obliterate either one solo regardless of class (slicer, needle, gizonde/rabarta). And don't say you need godly equips... spread needle was an easy drop and anyone who knew how to play any type of HU had a charge slicer 50h.

What he said.

Coming from someone who got multiple characters to 200, i can tell you that once you hit 150/160, st.milion and olga were not that hard.

Darki
Aug 21, 2013, 12:30 AM
Swords against banthers... and overend of all skills? Please tell me you're joking -_-

No. I'm just putting a random example. Please tell me you know that word.


Techer is good as long as you ignore most of the actives (except for PP convert) and buff up skills unless you absolutely need them to unlock something else. PP convert though syncs best with elements like fire and ice so it's situational. Not needed for dark since it regenerates while charging anyway.

The bolded part is the problem. I'm not trying to tell you how Techer "is", I just find retarded that a class have assets that are considered useless by players.

That's simply bad design.

Walkure
Aug 21, 2013, 01:47 AM
Swords against banthers... and overend of all skills? Please tell me you're joking -_-
If you're using an automate halfline build, you can literally sit in front of banther and spam over end until you run out of di/trimates even if you don't flinch or kill him. He's not wrong that partially defensive builds can do stupid things without much fear of punishment.

MetalDude
Aug 21, 2013, 01:55 AM
Automate Halfline is honestly the one defensive skill worth putting SP into if you're looking for almost entirely uninterrupted damage.

Darki
Aug 21, 2013, 02:00 AM
That's my point, yes, you can make a 100% DPS biuld, but if you're so obsessed with performance, the fact that you're as squishy as an ant is as important factor as getting an extra 5% in damage. A defensive build doesn't just cover your ass in the random case of accidental death, it makes you able to put yourself in more dangerous situations to deal more damage, all the time.

Are you taking defensive measures only a 5% of the time? That does not compute, precisely enemies like Banther are constantly attacking, specially if you're close to them. The fact that with Iron Will or Automate Halfline you can just go "oh fuck this" in front of its face and lock yourself in Over End unflinchable frames, gives you more freedom when fighting them.

Of course that recklessness will not pay all the time since Iron Will has a small chance of failure, but if you comnbine it with other defensive skills, it pays up much more than just being able to deal more damage. Because technically I'm dealing that damage anyways, just using more attacks than you, while you're dodging.

Smithee
Aug 21, 2013, 02:04 AM
After getting Massive Hunter and Absorption I'm not trusting SEGA anymore when it comes to improving classes. I'm still flabbergasted at how they could think those were good additions to the tank tree as they are right now. :'(

I wouldn't consider either of these useless seeing how I can think of at least one way they're use full.

MetalDude
Aug 21, 2013, 02:13 AM
Ideally if you're JG-ing hits, you're barely losing damage opportunities and more often than not creating more in the process due to invincibility. In fact, tank builds are an utter waste for Braver as Katana Gear benefits tremendously from as much S Atk and multipliers as possible and it's most desirable therefore to CA instead of tanking hits. FI is really the one exception if you exclusively use DS but Knuckles and T. Dags both have fast and viable dodging options that will keep you right in the action to the point where sacrificing damage for tanking is simply not that smart.

I seriously can't recommend any more tanking options than Automate. It's really rare that I get hit hard enough to die in one shot unless I'm not careful or get one-two punched extremely quickly (in which Iron Will alone wouldn't even save you). If you're putting points into both Iron Will and Automate, you're losing way more than 5% damage.

Skyly HUmar
Aug 21, 2013, 02:22 AM
That's my point, yes, you can make a 100% DPS biuld, but if you're so obsessed with performance, the fact that you're as squishy as an ant is as important factor as getting an extra 5% in damage. A defensive build doesn't just cover your ass in the random case of accidental death, it makes you able to put yourself in more dangerous situations to deal more damage, all the time.

Are you taking defensive measures only a 5% of the time? That does not compute, precisely enemies like Banther are constantly attacking, specially if you're close to them. The fact that with Iron Will or Automate Halfline you can just go "oh fuck this" in front of its face and lock yourself in Over End unflinchable frames, gives you more freedom when fighting them.

Of course that recklessness will not pay all the time since Iron Will has a small chance of failure, but if you combine it with other defensive skills, it pays up much more than just being able to deal more damage. Because technically I'm dealing that damage anyways, just using more attacks than you, while you're dodging.

This would be true if taking damage was an issue though. I mean... i prefer to no damage my bosses just because its funner that way (to me), but i have no problem tanking a banther for a few hits while i over end as a 60/60 hu/fidewm. Sure, it kills me in 3-4 hits in aq, but i can still get in enough damage to live it's hits and stun lock it by breaking all of it's parts back to back. I can even turn to the side so my over end actually hits the face and roar lock it to death.

I mean, if you think you're too squishy for that, you can just stick a bunch of healing abilities on your mag, keep it fed and it will pretty much be like having automate.

I get what you're saying about defensive skills being handy, but there's no getting around the fact that offense is better, and no matter what you say to point out how useful defensive skills are, they are still not as useful as being fully offensive.

Am i saying that its wrong to play that way? no. Am i saying offense is funner? of course not, i have a bulk tree myself. Everyone plays the way they want and whats fun to them may not be fun to me, but you just can't get around the fact that when it comes to efficiency bulky builds cant hold a candle to a build that's fully offensively invested. It just doesn't work that way no matter how much we want it to, and believe me i do.