Underage girl raped, kills herself, rapist only gets 30-day sentence

[CelestialBlade]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/28/justice/montana-teacher-rape-sentence/index.html?c=us

What, the, fuck. How could you do something so horrible to someone and only get a minor slap on the wrist, while we put a patriot behind bars for 35 years for trying to help the American people and we throw out draconian sentences for occasional drug users. This shit's fucking backwards and it really pisses me off. Not only are women afraid to report the crime, there's hardly any justice when they do.

The weak-ass excuses from the judge in this case make me want to vomit. The US justice system gets worse by the day.

[Polly]

"She seems older than her chronological age but I've never met her." -the judge

WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT EVEN MEAN AND HOW DOES THAT EVEN BEGIN TO EXCUSE IT?

[.Rusty.]

EWW why did I read the comments :nono:

There's a dude with a pony avatar going on about how its not technically rape and a bunch shitwizards ranting about false accusations.

[lonewhitewolf1]

anyone know how to post pics? i want the one where that futurama character and the words "i dont want to live on this planet anymore" or something like that.

[Vintasticvin]

Should sent his ass to texas and strapped him to the chair... The so called judicial system of where crime gets away and the good gets punished utterly disgusts me.

If Captain America was real he'd be pissed off.

[lonewhitewolf1]

we really need to bring back the death penalty. people who rape, kill, drink and drive, text and drive should just be all shot.

[.Rusty.]

The legal system is bad enough as it is making it even more barbaric by bringing the death penalty back aint gonna fix shit.

[gigawuts]

Judges using circular or otherwise false logic on cases they don't want is nothing new, unfortunately. Either they don't want to deal with it, or they need to make it go away, or whatever the reason is they'll be plenty eager to throw out some canned, bullshit response that will somehow manage to be upheld by other members of the old boys club despite having no actual basis in logic or law.

[o0Kais0o]

Thats right, blame the underage girl who's feeling insecure and has that preyed on by a fucking sick pervert. Go justice. As for that judge, I'd laugh my arse off if this wasn't so tragic, seriously how does he have such a position, this makes him look inane if not outright retarded.

[strikerhunter]

we really need to bring back the death penalty. people who rape, kill, drink and drive, text and drive should just be all shot.

The second part was a bit overboard.

But what the hell is wrong with the judge? In before you know it, the sick pervert is out doing it again because of a stupid judge. How did he even got to be one surprises me even more.

This is a terrible call and I have to say that her love ones will need to take action if they can.

[Sp-24]

There's one thing I don't understand: both the 15 years sentence for rape and the rapist treatment program are common procedures, right? That's why it all comes down to people's feelings, and not to the judge actually breaking the law to help a criminal or something.

Well, it just so happens that I was 14 years old once. I even knew other 14 years olds, as unlikely as it may sound. It's not an "innocent" age, not even close. Yet, from the citations in that article, it's as if I'm supposed to believe that what's-her-name was some kind of a saint, and judge suggesting that she was "as much in control of the situation" is absurd.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/28/former-montana-teacher-gets-30-days-for-student-rape/"

[spoiler-box]CNN article:

"She wasn't even old enough to get a driver's license," Hanlon said in a statement released by her attorney. "But Judge Baugh, who never met our daughter, justified the paltry sentence saying she was older than her chronological age. I guess somehow it makes a rape more acceptable if you blame the victim, even if she was only 14."

Fox News article:

The judge said he listened to statements given by Morales before her death and believed that while she was a troubled youth, she was "as much in control of the situation" as Rambold and was "older than her chronological age."

And another one:

CNN:

With the teen's death, the prosecution entered into what is known as a "deferred prosecution agreement" with Rambold.
This meant that all charges against Rambold would be dismissed if he completed a sex offender treatment program and met other requirements. One of them was to have no contact with children.
Rambold admitted to one of the rape charges.
But Rambold fell short of the agreement.
"He had some contacts with nieces and nephews in a family setting and other adults were present," Baugh said.
He also had relationships with women that he didn't tell his counselors about.
"That is a violation from his deferred prosecution so he was dropped from the plan."
As a result, the case was revived in December 2012.

Fox News:

The case was revived last December when prosecutors learned Rambold had been terminated from the sex offender treatment program.
Treatment provider Michael Sullivan said Rambold started missing meetings in August 2012, but Sullivan said he met with Rambold and he appeared to be back on track with his treatment.
Rambold was terminated from the program in November when it was learned that he had been having unsupervised visits with minors, who were family members, and did not inform counselors that he had been having sexual relations with a woman.
Defense attorney Jay Lansing said Rambold has since continued his treatment with a different program and an evaluation found him at low risk to re-offend.
[/spoiler-box]
Looks to me like someone is intentionally omitting details to either get some sort of a point across, or just to earn some clicks.

Just calm your shit, people. You don't know anything about the people involved. And never actually will, since this story will be forgotten in a few days, when World War 3 starts.

[CelestialBlade]

As asinine as the judge seems to be, it's not even him that's primarily at fault--it's the system. A system that is not harsh enough on sexual predators, has way too many loopholes, very little checks and responsibilities in its rehab programs, and the audacity to allow an opinion like "seeming older than her chronological age" to have a voice in the law. Her "innocence" or other such character attributes are in no way the point here--a 49-year-old man has *no* business getting sexually involved with a minor, period. And apparently she must not have been the sole cause of the situation if there's evidence of him messing around with other minors.

Many will forget about this sort of thing, but I won't. That's why I posted it. It's an issue people don't want to talk about and I think it needs addressing. It's not about the fine incongruities of the specific case, it's about the existence of these loopholes and the lack of attention or care to fixing the system. As gigawuts inferred, it's certainly a very general problem of the system and it's certainly not just the case for sex crimes, but it's definitely a glaring result of those problems. And it's fucking disgusting that so many want to just sweep it under the rug. No wonder she killed herself.

[gigawuts]

re: sexual predators

I think the worst part about that is anyone caught pissing in a bush is automatically lumped into the exact same system as this guy seems to have narrowly escaped.

So much for it being worse to imprison one innocent man than to let ten guilty men go free and all that nonsense.

God the whole system is fucked up.

[Atbar]

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3012626&postcount=5863

[Carlte]

we really need to bring back the death penalty. people who rape, kill, drink and drive, text and drive should just be all shot.

Death sentence isnt a good thing, Its a "run away" method that some would rather deal with than rot in a prison being ridiculed.

Shoot their legs off, chop their dick off and take off all but 3 fingers and throw em in the public. See how they live like that.

[Sp-24]

Shoot their legs off, chop their dick off and take off all but 3 fingers and throw em in the public. See how they live like that.
You do know who will then have to fund their continued existence, right?

And no, that's not my only problem with your post. Holy shit.

[gigawuts]

well this escalated quickly

[Scejntjynahl]

And this is why we live in a rape culture. Rape should not be quantified by age, gender, creed, or anything else. It is the simple barbaric act of taking something by force and facing no consequences because you claim you had no control. Biggest load of crud I will ever hear/read about.

Its as crazy as a burglar pressing charges because he/she hurt themselves as they tried to break into your house.

Somewhere along time as we have become more "civilized" we have lost common sense.

That judge in his twisted out of touch with reality opinion most likely felt "why punish two people? Poor guy will suffer with the stigma" etc etc. But see, he failed to understand and comprehend this stigma, the rapist BROUGHT onto himself the second he committed this act. The victim never has a say so, never has a chance, and their stigma and pain was forced upon them. This is where the judged failed as a human being.

[Sp-24]

rape culture
by force
victim never has a say so, never has a chance

Just wondering, who here read the article?

[Scejntjynahl]

rape culture
by force
victim never has a say so, never has a chance

Just wondering, who here read the article?

Ok, I will bite. What are you implying?

[BIG OLAF]

There's no such thing as a "rape culture". There are, however, cultures where rape happens. Which, is to say, all of them.

Do we live in a "murder culture", too? How about a "theft culture"? An "assault culture"? "Embezzlement culture"?

[Scejntjynahl]

It becomes part of the culture when you begin to accept as a normal occurrence. When it becomes an expected event. Ie. If a girl wears clothing that shows skin, she is asking for it. We hear similar things like this all the time, and we expect it to be so... and this is where the trap lays in. We should not be expecting this at all, no person should be assaulted because of they happen to wear... it is unjustifiable.

And as to the the article, and the perception of maturity versus actual age... this has no bearing in the word of the law. The victim can have a phd, a doctorate, highest IQ ever, could be a natural flirt, could have been no longer a virgin, it DOES NOT MATTER! The victim is still a MINOR. No matter how mature you are, you are bound by the laws of the nation you live in.

Furthermore, even if she was not innocent, even if she did lead him on as another poster is trying to infer, it does not negate the laws set in place by the society we happen to live in.

We often forget that we as human beings, are allowed to CHANGE our minds. Let us run a scenario where the victim may have led the rapist on, the minute, the second, the victim no longer wants anything to do with that person... that is where it has to stop. It must stop.

And yes, we do live in a "murder cutlure", "theft culture", and "assault culture" but unlike "rape culture" those other ones do get more consequences handed out (aka punishment befitting the crimes).

[Sp-24]

Ok, I will bite. What are you implying?
That a CNN reporter has trouble referring to the incident as anything other than "rape" in the broadest possible sense. To make a comparison, that's like Fox News having trouble calling Obama's actions anything worse than "disappointing". Without any additional details, it should default to "statutory rape", as in, the victim can't legally consent at all. Yet implying that the victim could have had any control over anything is, by default, "out of touch", and makes you fail as a human being. Even though rape shouldn't be quantified by age or gender, in which case, who really knows who raped whom?

As I said before, nobody here knows anything about the criminal or victim. Like, literally nobody who posted in this topic knows any thing whatsoever about what exactly happened, aside from the fact that rape did take place. Yet the guy is automatically a monster oppressor of womanhood everywhere. And so is the judge, but at least he apologized:
"I made some references to the victim's age and control," he told KTVQ. "I'm not sure just what I was attempting to say at that point, but it didn't come out correct. What I said was demeaning to all women, not what I believe in and irrelevant to the sentencing."

THAT is the biggest load of crud I will ever/read hear about. Though I bet PSO2 subforum will be happy to prove me wrong, as usual.

[BIG OLAF]

If a girl wears clothing that shows skin, she is asking for it.... no person should be assaulted because of they happen to wear... it is unjustifiable.

I've never even heard anyone seriously say this in a context where they mean it, so I'm still not seeing the 'culture' part of it. No one "expects" these things to happen as a 'normal occurrence'. Where are you even getting that?

Besides, if that's what we're going by, then every single place in the world is a 'rape culture', except maybe Vatican City (err...well, maybe not). Because, there's sick fucks all over the planet. Doesn't mean people 'expect' it because "it happens". It's the laws of probability. Eventually, a sick piece of shit will see a woman, or man, and then feel so inclined and attempt to commit an atrocity upon them. Still doesn't make it a 'culture', let alone accepted. That's just utter lunacy. I've never heard the word 'culture' used in the context in which you're presently using it.

[gigawuts]

i don't know about anyone else i preferred this thread when people were talking about dismembering a rapist

this whole "rape culture" thing physically pains me, because not only do we very plainly not live in a rape culture, but we very plainly do live in a political manipulation culture where bribes and connections of the wealthy elite far outweigh the people in actual need of assistance - and all you fucking "rape culture" fucks decide to get wadded up over the fad of the month buzzword instead of actual reality

as said: there's no more of a "rape culture" than there is a "murder culture," "theft culture," so on and so forth

meanwhile, the fucking NSA over there is noting who's naughty and nice and you fuckers couldn't give less of a fuck if you were paid to

[CelestialBlade]

Whoa why is this topic back o_o

I was going to follow-up, but uh...no. All I'm seeing is arguing over completely superficial concepts and people having to be right about everything, so I don't see that going anywhere useful. All I'll say is, I read recently from a couple of sources that 1 in 10 young men in the US have admitted to committing or being involved in an act of sexual abuse, and it does not goddamn matter what terms you give it or whether you know the exact details of the situation, something in this culture needs to change. I won't say we really accept the concept, but it is seen as far more inconsequential than it should be.

NSA sucks too, I don't see anyone disagreeing with that.

[gigawuts]

Yeah, and unless those 1 in 10 men are here you're preaching to the choir.

Rape is bad. Obviously. Yelling that you dislike rape louder than someone else doesn't mean they like it, it means you're yelling louder about it. That's how I see this "rape culture" phenomenon that's been permeating its stink throughout the internet and, disappointingly, the real world. People latch onto some uninspired, thoughtless buzzword and carry it with them like some disgusting smelling cheese that nobody wants to try but them. And since they stink more than everyone else they decide that they - and only they - are true cheese aficionados. Everyone else is clearly a part of the anti-cheese culture. That is how people who say "rape culture" behave.

It disgusts me. No, rape is not okay, but it's also not okay to get so outrageously up in arms as so many people do without even paying attention to what you're getting up in arms over in the first place. It's especially not okay to do that when there's very bluntly an actual cultural apathy regarding something of actual consequence to a seriously large portion of its own self. I promise you that if you were to go out onto the street you'd hear the same people say rape is bad, then go on to say they can't do anything about the government's very real and growing surveillance on its own citizens.

This circles back to that post I made in the bullshit thread about people being so used to everything they can readily see having validity that they just let everything in and run with it.

[Sp-24]

Isn't that "divide and conquer"? People are busy fighting wars on social injustices that well-funded organizations spread the word about, while the government is given a breathing room to do what it wants. Everyone's happy, barely anyone will even notice or care that their every word is recorded and evaluated when there's a new kind of inequality and privilege to destroy every day. And if someone does care too much, they can be pacified with a trip to gitmo.

[.Rusty.]

I promise you that if you were to go out onto the street you'd hear the same people say rape is bad, then go on to say they can't do anything about the government's very real and growing surveillance on its own citizens.


The thing is a lot of the people who say rape is bad are thinking about the violent thug in an alleyway type of rape and not just any kind of non consensual sex.

Also what's your plan for dealing with the NSA situation?

[gigawuts]

The thing is a lot of the people who say rape is bad are thinking about the violent thug in an alleyway type of rape and not just any kind of non consensual sex.This is an odd claim to make. It's almost like you're digging for ways to be oppressed.


Also what's your plan for dealing with the NSA situation?This is even more interesting. What exactly are you getting at with this question?

Bear in mind that any intent can, and likely will, be met with an equally posited question: What's your plan for dealing with rape culture?

[.Rusty.]

This is an odd claim to make. It's almost like you're digging for ways to be oppressed.


Hardly an odd claim. It often comes up in these kind of discussions. Ya know stuff like "forcible rape" "legitimate rape"


What's your plan for dealing with rape culture?

Well for a start you could try having an emphasis on consent as part of sex education.

[gigawuts]

They already teach that. I remember it myself. They also have ads on TV. They also teach us not to steal, not to kill, not to do all sorts of things that are still done.

We don't live in a "rape culture." We don't even live in a culture of "it's only illegal if I get caught." We now live in a culture of "it's only illegal if I get punished." That's the problem. Rape, like many other things, is a symptom, not the disease.

[CelestialBlade]

The same "preaching to the choir" argument could be made about the NSA claim (which...really has nothing to do with this topic): it's not like any of us condone the unconstitutional spying on of our citizens. I can't directly do a damn thing about it. But that doesn't mean I can't raise awareness to the problem and the real damage it can cause. That's the biggest way I can fight back against inconsequential attitudes held in this country, and well, I personally can relate to the topic of sexual abuse far more than I can about the fallacies of the US government. I've been personally affected by sexual abuse and the original article hits home with me, and I can speak to it in ways I can't about the NSA. Doesn't mean I don't care about the latter and quite frankly that has nothing to do with anything. I intended this topic merely to raise awareness to how deep and severe our global attitudes toward rape can run.

None of that has anything to do with knowing every single about a case or how I feel about a completely unrelated topic. The fact is that a girl killed herself either directly or indirectly due to sexual abuse, which is NEVER deserved, and the judge's initial reaction sickened me. For the record, that apology just sounds like a bunch of PR bullshit to me,

[gigawuts]

You're not the one I'm taking issue with, though. There's nothing mindless or regurgitated about what you've said.

Scejntjynahl, on the other hand, decided this was tumblr.

[Sp-24]

"legitimate rape"
Well, that's a new one. Though I'm not necessarily against the concept - I can see myself applying the term to some people from my last few Falz runs.

[CelestialBlade]

You're not the one I'm taking issue with, though. There's nothing mindless or regurgitated about what you've said.

Scejntjynahl, on the other hand, decided this was tumblr.
Fair enough; sorry for any misunderstanding. I think the ultimate solution will have to come from a long-term cultural shift, which I believe we're already a part of. That includes raising awareness to the issue and making sex-ed actually useful, as a start. There's not a lot we can do in the immediate sense other than this, and of course teaching our future children the right things. Not placing blame on anyone in particular, but throwing around the semantics of terms and other superficial shit accomplishes nothing.

[moeri]

I have to say, I really don't think we know enough about the situation given the article and such. The suicide is irrelevant information that shouldn't even be considered in the case.

"Underage girl raped." From what I read, this would have been "consensual" if of course the victim was old enough to give consent. Though the victim seemed to have regretted this years latter, which could be for any number of reasons, reasons that could be completely unrelated to the rape itself, such as the man no longer wanting to see the victim. Actually, I am wondering if the victim actually approached the man first in this situation.

The judge then decided that the man would not do this again, and preferred for him to seek treatment, thinking that he already knew that his actions were wrong. Simply being put in a situation where he was unable to control himself when the victim was pressuring him to perform the "rape."

Of course, I am just going off of the facts contained in the article, and trying to present them from another angle. I would have to read more to know what actually happened, to know if my imaginary scenario makes sense.

[Outrider]

Oh Christ.

Okay, here is everybody's homework: Don't go spouting off about whether or not rape culture does or does not exist until you've done some reading - any reading - on the topic of rape culture. You do not know something about a topic simply because you have an opinion on it. Just because the idea of rape culture sounds idiotic to you does not mean there is no basis of truth behind it.

We live in a culture in which 1 in 4 women will experience a rape or rape attempt in their lives. We live in a culture in which almost 50% of rapes and sexual assaults aren't reported. We live in a culture in which only around 3% of rapists will ever go to jail for their crime. We live in a culture in which male politicians can tell a women whether or not what they've experienced counts as "legitimate rape." We live in a culture in which people who are raped are not treated as victims but instead as somebody who brought this crime upon themselves.

That is rape culture. Yes, most people think that rape is bad (or claim to think it's bad), but that doesn't change the world we live in. By the numbers, we have rape survivors on this forum. By the numbers, we have rapists on this forum. Don't try to belittle the situation. If it doesn't affect you then I don't understand why you're bothering to post.

Choosing to ignore the issue, especially when it is ingrained in our culture, does not fix anything. Talking about the issue and learning how to change attitudes and laws is how we fix it.

But if you want to try and feel like you're above it all and turn this into a pointless semantics argument, then please don't waste our time. Does it really matter so much whether or not we call it "rape culture" or "hey there are still a lot of people in our culture who don't understand that rape is bad"? If you're more upset about the terminology being used than you are about the problem at hand, you are part of the problem. You are sidelining the real issues because you don't want to talk about them. You are not helping.

The same goes for victim blaming. You are not adding to the discussion or making yourself look smart by trying to play devil's advocate or claim that maybe this guy's rape isn't as bad as everybody thinks it is. Moving forward, you should play this game next time you want to blame a victim or try to imply that they weren't as victimized as much as everybody thinks they were: assume that you're wrong. Maybe you're not! Maybe you're absolutely right and everybody is making a big deal out of a false claim or trumped up charge. But just go through the thought experiment and realize this: If you are wrong, you are targeting the victim of an awful, life-changing experience and accusing them of lying about it. If you are wrong, you are contributing to the cultural pressure that makes people feel they shouldn't report a rape because nobody will believe them. You can tell people not to jump the gun before everything has come to light, but if all is said and done and you have to make up reasons for why the crime may not be as bad as it's been publicly reported, you're not helping anybody and at best you're making yourself look like a dolt while at worse you're making yourself look like a sexist idiot. Thinking twice about potentially hurtful claims can prevent you from looking idiotic OR sexist!

I'm going to close this thread for everybody's benefit, but let me be clear here: the above will be true for any future threads on this topic. Do not try to derail these kinds of discussions by trying to make them about something else. Do not try and make this about blaming the victim. Do not try to tell people that this isn't an issue that should be discussed. That's not acceptable in the best of situations, and it certainly isn't acceptable here. End of story.