Highly disappointed in the skill trees. Your thoughts?

[FreelancerRaiko]

Honestly, it's like there isn't even much of a point. Some of them even want you to max them out for what is basically only going to amount to a 1% damage increase at max level. That's 10 of your SP down the tube.

Others aren't even that good. For example, the skill for the Bullet Bow called Rapid Shoot cuts down your attack to instead fire three shots in rapid for every time you attack. Sounds like it could be a good trade off right? Not really considering one of those three shots are only a fourth of the damage. That means 25% * 3 shots equal only a 75% damage. That means this skill makes you actually deal an entire 25% less damage over all. What's even the point? The only way to make it useful is to max it out till each shot does 34% but those three shots only amount to a total of 102% damage. A 2% damage increase? That's it?


tl;dr: All in all the skill trees are highly disappointing. Photon arts? Technics? Mags? All good. Skill trees? Epic fail on Sega's part. Please tell me I'm not the only disappointed here right?

[NightSun]

While I do agree with you some skills are just bad, I don't see how you can say the whole skill tree system is a fail.
Hunter alone has skills that upon maxing out give you 20%+ extra damage. That's only one skill too, stacked with others you're looking at over a 60% increase (I didn't do the math just making a point).
Braver too has skills like Weak Stance which off the back I can see give a 30% increase.

Don't mean to offend you, but maybe you're just putting your points into the wrong skills?
Try searching around for skills that are worth it.

[Metalsnake27]

Skill trees are... fine, for the most part, they just annoy me I think.

One of those games where it feels like you can mess up your entire build so easily, and of course, you can't reset without AC :/

Discuss, plan ahead, and decide what you wanna specialize in with the skill trees is how I look at it. You'd be surprised on how much they can actually help if you invest your points right.

[GreenArcher]

Rapid shoot is very useful for recovering PP

[FreelancerRaiko]

Yeah there's maybe one or two useful ones in SOME skill trees but not ALL. For example, I'm playing as a Braver and to be honest a lot of those skills are just disappointing. Have friends playing as techers and things, and they only end up getting any use out of just one skill and only when it's maxed out.'



SKILL TREES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT. You should be getting actual use out of them, not just a few barely tiny boosts. Putting ONE skill point in a skill should give you a 20% damage increase, not maxing it out. I know PSO2 isn't supposed to be like other rpg's but come on this is like RPG 101 basic stuff here. I could literally make a character without using a single skill point and he wouldn't perform much differently than anyone else.

[MetalDude]

It's more like skill tree subbing serves almost entirely to boost damage and not actually add any real utility to your toolkit. It's incredibly boring and limited.

[gigawuts]

Skilltrees in this game aren't the same as skilltrees in other games. They're not new bonuses for new things like you might find in other games, they're more just pigeonholed class sub-roles via damage bonuses and little else most of the time. There's a few exceptions, but not nearly as many as plenty of other games (like, say, Borderlands).

[Dextro]

I could literally make a character without using a single skill point and he wouldn't perform much differently than anyone else.

......have you even played this game? the damage discrepancy would be huge

[Zyrusticae]

Yeah, not gonna lie, the skill trees in this game are pretty bad when it comes to actually offering you much in the way of choices. As it is, there are generally one or two paths that are optimal and everything else is just a waste of time (ranger and hunter are particularly guilty of this).

It wouldn't be so much of an issue if, for example, you could fully invest into one side of the tree and still have points left over to put into something on the other side of the tree.

[MetalDude]

Nearly everything requiring 10 points kind of pissed me off. There's almost no discrepancies between what's actually worth that much (Fury Stance itself) and the bonuses themselves (which should be 5, honestly).

[Lostbob117]

I would change the gears and how they are. A few other things, but that's all I would change.

[gigawuts]

Yeah, not gonna lie, the skill trees in this game are pretty bad when it comes to actually offering you much in the way of choices. As it is, there are generally one or two paths that are optimal and everything else is just a waste of time (ranger and hunter are particularly guilty of this).

It wouldn't be so much of an issue if, for example, you could fully invest into one side of the tree and still have points left over to put into something on the other side of the tree.

This is the big problem. They don't let you get multiple things. Hunter's tree would be perfect if they shaved 10-15 SP off of the Fury branch without reducing the damage, letting players choose between Iron Will, Automate Halfline, or an array of other skills. Hunter's role might not be perfect, but with one tree maxed and extra SP to dip into some of the abilities of the other you'd have very good tree design. Allowing overspecialization is bad, because eventually it becomes required.

I also agree 100% that skills should have their best gains at 1 sp, and if the skill doesn't get much better then it shouldn't require much more sp. I posted a brief rant explanation about this a ways back, and they later on added 5 SP skills that did exactly that, so either someone's watching or they're figuring out what works and what doesn't as they go.

Either way, 10 sp for 10% is awful and needs to go. Make those all 5 SP skills, have them give 50% at 1 SP, and then let them finish off with the last 4 SP. Also, make skills a choice of situational bonuses, and awesome when they're in effect. Just like, say, Crazy Heart. 1.5x at 1 sp, 2x at 5 sp. That's perfect. Then again, Crazy Heart's biggest flaw is it requires lots of SP sinks to get to, and it's pretty situational...but it's a step in the right direction. They need to add a Crazy Slayer Stance or something though, which would automatically enable all of the slayer and crazy skills.

[FreelancerRaiko]

The only skill I've found useful was Katana Combat because it's the only thing that actually resembles what a skill should actually be. Plus it's just fun going basically hyper mode on a boss zooming at high speeds. Other than that though, all the other skills are useless.

[Cyclon]

I actually agree on skill trees in general. I'd say we get far too many points for this type of game. As such, we need talents that are just point holes so that we may toss them in without regret, and it makes each talent point by itself, also known as levelling up, irrelevant past level 20 or stuff.

I think we actually should get points for these "holes", and different points every... 5 levels perhaps? For the far more important one pointers, which as a result would have their own tree. Or something. Whatever.

In any case, flawed as they are, they still work. It's one of these things that COULD be better, but are nice to have in the game as they are anyway.

[Korazenn]

Yeah there's maybe one or two useful ones in SOME skill trees but not ALL. For example, I'm playing as a Braver and to be honest a lot of those skills are just disappointing. Have friends playing as techers and things, and they only end up getting any use out of just one skill and only when it's maxed out.'

One skill? There are far more skills than just 'one' to max out for each class that are highly beneficial and turn the tides in combat. ;)

For instance, with my HU/FO setup, I can max out all (or most of) the Fury Stance-based skills, spending the couple of points left for Sword Gear, and I get a 60%+ damage boost along with Critical Strike chances increased up to 20%. Combine all that with the damage bonuses from JA Boosts and the Over End PA, and you're pretty much a non-stop killing machine.

For the FO (TE as well), there is an abundance of skills to choose from, and the same goes for FI, RA, and GU. In the Braver's case, the skill trees are very tied to what the class excels in---offense from melee or long range, your pick.


SKILL TREES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT. You should be getting actual use out of them, not just a few barely tiny boosts. Putting ONE skill point in a skill should give you a 20% damage increase, not maxing it out. I know PSO2 isn't supposed to be like other rpg's but come on this is like RPG 101 basic stuff here. I could literally make a character without using a single skill point and he wouldn't perform much differently than anyone else.

I think you're over-reacting to the situation here.

The Class Skills are not at all meant to replace the ones you already have on your sub-palette or weapon palette; they're meant to supplement them instead as passive skills as you already have a ton of PAs and Techniques you can use in place of a normal class skill system. Also, you clearly don't know how the math behind the system works.

To keep it simple, let's say I do 200 damage each hit with a JA on the Sword. If I put one point into JA Boost 1, that goes up 2 damage. Alright. Doesn't look like much, right? Well, let's take another example out of the book. When I use Over End on a better Sword, with Sword Gear already learnt, along with a GuRa using WB on, oh, let's say the Vol Dragon's head, I do 4000 damage normally. With the JA Boost 1 and 2 at max, that percentage increase is +20%, and with max Fury Stance, and FS Boost 1 and 2, it climbs to a staggering +65%.

Still not impressed? Well, with that boost, I'd be easily doing 6600 on each hit, along with more from Critical Strikes, other parts of the Vol Dragon that I'm hitting, and WB giving an even further increase from a GuRa (and you don't even want to fathom how much dps that would be if the GuRa has WB skills maxed out as well).

[Vashyron]

I agree that that the skill trees are crap, yet...

Photon arts? Technics? Mags? All good.

Photon Arts and Techniques? When most of them are redundant to use?

Mags? When you are forced into shelling out real money if you want more than 1? Which is pretty important if you either mess up or want to play more than one class.

[Lumpen Thingy]

Was referring to the Braver skill tree in that example. Therefore you just proved my point that the Braver skill tree really only has one truly useful skill if you had to tell me to go seek another one from a different skill tree.

Also thanks for calling someone a 'fucking idiot' over their opinion of a terri-bad skill tree system in a game. Really shows the amount of respect you have for others.

Ok max every weak stance boost and use a bow and there. Now you rape every boss in the game and just use katanas for aoe. Boy that sure was hard to figure out.

[Walkure]

Um ya you're a fucking idiot. sub hunter and max all the furry stance skills and then tell me that furry stance is worthless.For optimal furry stance, do you recommend bunny ears/tail, cat ears/tail, or fox ears/tail? What are the benefits and drawbacks of each?

[Lumpen Thingy]

For optimal furry stance, do you recommend bunny ears/tail, cat ears/tail, or fox ears/tail? What are the benefits and drawbacks of each?

well cat ears/tails are all always the best so go with those, fox ears/tails are sort of meh while bunny ears/tails are a bit too playboyish for my taste

[Foxy-Kun]

Yeah there's maybe one or two useful ones in SOME skill trees but not ALL. For example, I'm playing as a Braver and to be honest a lot of those skills are just disappointing. Have friends playing as techers and things, and they only end up getting any use out of just one skill and only when it's maxed out.'



SKILL TREES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT. You should be getting actual use out of them, not just a few barely tiny boosts. Putting ONE skill point in a skill should give you a 20% damage increase, not maxing it out. I know PSO2 isn't supposed to be like other rpg's but come on this is like RPG 101 basic stuff here. I could literally make a character without using a single skill point and he wouldn't perform much differently than anyone else.

I would like to see this done; because you're blowing it out of proportion and it's a little annoying.

I do not think 1 point in a skill tree should give you 20% damage increase, that's ridiculous. This is a MMORPG, not a RPG. There's a wide difference between the two, and both have very different game builds. Honestly, I think for how easy it is to hit 100k+ damage on anything in this game, the skill trees are just fine.

[jooozek]

to see how moronic pso2 skill trees are look how idiotic picking sub-classes became after the hunter fury stance buff, even the goddamn ranged classes go for hunter sub because they don't have to fit some moronic conditions like having to stand still or facing the enemis point blank while using a ranged weapon (rotfl) or shoting enemies in the air

[UnLucky]

For instance, with my HU/FO setup, I can max out all (or most of) the Fury Stance-based skills, spending the couple of points left for Sword Gear, and I get a 60%+ damage boost along with Critical Strike chances increased up to 20%. Combine all that with the damage bonuses from JA Boosts and the Over End PA, and you're pretty much a non-stop killing machine.

Still not impressed? Well, with that boost, I'd be easily doing 6600 on each hit, along with more from Critical Strikes, other parts of the Vol Dragon that I'm hitting, and WB giving an even further increase from a GuRa (and you don't even want to fathom how much dps that would be if the GuRa has WB skills maxed out as well).

Please don't tell me you've maxed Fury Critical, the skill that allows you to do no more than 100% of your normal damage slightly more often.

Full Fury Stance gives your Striking damage a 219% multiplier, and you've got no more SP for anything else, the least of which being a pitiful critical hit chance.

Only thing worth getting instead of fully maxing FS are your weapon gears, since Wired Lances get another 30% bonus for having the Gear, and Partisans get increased AoE for more total possible damage.

[Vashyron]

to see how moronic pso2 skill trees are look how idiotic picking sub-classes became after the hunter fury stance buff, even the goddamn ranged classes go for hunter sub because they don't have to fit some moronic conditions like having to stand still or facing the enemis point blank while using a ranged weapon (rotfl) or shoting enemies in the air

IDK I thought the Ranger tree alone was a good example of how moronic they are.

Traps? What the heck are those?

Panic Shot? Jellen Shot? Stun Grenade? What alien language is this?

Weak Bullet? WHAT RANGER DOESN'T HAVE THIS?

[strikerhunter]

I could literally make a character without using a single skill point and he wouldn't perform much differently than anyone else.

For the love of god go play the game for more than a week or get to level 40 first.
-This is basically saying a lvl 1 can match a lvl 60
or
-someone not built to kill can match someone that is meant to kill.
-I dare you to do so and see the major difference between someone built to kill.



Yeah there's maybe one or two useful ones in SOME skill trees but not ALL. For example, I'm playing as a Braver and to be honest a lot of those skills are just disappointing. Have friends playing as techers and things, and they only end up getting any use out of just one skill and only when it's maxed out.'

You clearly just spent no more than 1 hour playing the game and not seeing al of the skill trees. There are more than 1 or 2 skills in the trees that are useful than just 1.

Don't use Braver as a target of your argument because you have to remember that braver is brand new, therefore of course its skill tree is going to suck for now but you have to wait for new fixes on it like how they did with hunters and Gunners.




SKILL TREES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT.

Stopped reading the rest of the paragraph right there nor is it you or anyone to say that it is "not suppose to be like that".

Not every single skill tree in every single game will have the same style, go down and read below after the next quote.



Others aren't even that good. For example, the skill for the Bullet Bow called Rapid Shoot cuts down your attack to instead fire three shots in rapid for every time you attack. Sounds like it could be a good trade off right? Not really considering one of those three shots are only a fourth of the damage. That means 25% * 3 shots equal only a 75% damage. That means this skill makes you actually deal an entire 25% less damage over all. What's even the point? The only way to make it useful is to max it out till each shot does 34% but those three shots only amount to a total of 102% damage. A 2% damage increase? That's it?


LOL okay first thing, you fail to understand the set backs of Rapid shot, it lowers your attack by 25% not 75%. What is shown on the skill simulator is how far your attack goes down to.


IMO, the skill tree is actually successful in the way how PSO2 works.

1. The game is not based on skills like all of those WOW clones or borderlands.
2. THIS IS NOT A GAME THAT USES SKILLS, IT'S AN ACTION ORIENTATED GAME.
3. Different game type revolves a different style of using skill trees. AND I do not want to give a long list of reasons why.


tl:dr Go play the game for a week and don't go say the skill trees should revolve more on skill based stuffs because that is not what PSO2 is. PSO2 is not a skill based aka square-box with CD and rotations pressing, etc. so expect to see very few of that in PSO2's skill tree.

[Enforcer MKV]

It's simple, just get rid of the entire skill tree system. -w-

There, I said it - the game would be more fun if they just got rid of skill trees, threw out the atk ups, and made the skills unlock progressively as we leveled.

/dons armor.

[strikerhunter]

It's simple, just get rid of the entire skill tree system. -w-

There, I said it - the game would be more fun if they just got rid of skill trees, threw out the atk ups, and made the skills unlock progressively as we leveled.

/dons armor.

Honestly, I prefer PSP2/2i's somewhat of a build system where you unlock the skills and are limited to you want in your setup in your limited slots with no class restrictions on the skills.

[gigawuts]

PSO2's tree system would be better if they didn't limit unique skills to each class. GU needs JA Bonus, and so does fighter.

[Sayara]

No, im sorry I don't agree with that Enf.
Make them perks maybe; but I like some of the skills and whatnot here.

If you go Tank HU anyway theres some pretty fun things you can get.
But... who plays for being bulky anyway :<

[Gardios]

IDK I thought the Ranger tree alone was a good example of how moronic they are.

Traps? What the heck are those?

Panic Shot? Jellen Shot? Stun Grenade? What alien language is this?

Weak Bullet? WHAT RANGER DOESN'T HAVE THIS?

I actually kind of like the Ranger tree because it offers various options for the player... too bad all of them but Weak Bullet and the damage boosts are beyond useless currently. =|



If you go Tank HU anyway theres some pretty fun things you can get.
But... who plays for being bulky anyway :<

;_;

[Nitro Vordex]

I would like to see more variance allowed in skill trees. I agree that players are far too limited in what they can build for, and still be considered useful. (By PSO2 Gen's standards, anyway.) I personally like being able to take a hit, instead of being full glass cannon. Building tanky, isn't honestly a good thing to do, but I can still do decent damage and contribute as a whole. I have about half and half right now, and I prefer being able to take a hit and still do a decent amount of damage. An off-tank, if you will. Mostly on the account that I'm terrible at blocking and dodge sometimes. But the fact I either go full damage or I'm stupid is a really dumb line of thinking, but it's apparently popular.

tl;dr give me more skill points or more options.

[Sayara]

If the Fury tree wasn't like 4 different boosts it'd probably make the rest of the HU options more viable. Maybe.

[UnLucky]

The moment you switch on Guard Stance, your possible damage bonus drops down to 114% from 219%.

There's 181% damage exclusive to Fury Stance, and a 95% penalty on top of that.

I hope you like taking 32% less damage thanks to Guard Stance! Oh wait, that has no effect on incoming Ranged or Tech damage unless you spend even more SP!

[AgemFrostMage]

For optimal furry stance, do you recommend bunny ears/tail, cat ears/tail, or fox ears/tail? What are the benefits and drawbacks of each?

He wins the thread 8-)

[Korazenn]

Please don't tell me you've maxed Fury Critical, the skill that allows you to do no more than 100% of your normal damage slightly more often.

I'm not wasting any points on that. Don't worry. :-P


Only thing worth getting instead of fully maxing FS are your weapon gears, since Wired Lances get another 30% bonus for having the Gear, and Partisans get increased AoE for more total possible damage.

Already did that, and agreed 100%.

[Nitro Vordex]

The moment you switch on Guard Stance, your possible damage bonus drops down to 114% from 219%.

There's 181% damage exclusive to Fury Stance, and a 95% penalty on top of that.

I hope you like taking 32% less damage thanks to Guard Stance! Oh wait, that has no effect on incoming Ranged or Tech damage unless you spend even more SP!
Good thing I'm using Guard Stance for damage.

[Sayara]

Honestly, there shouldn't BE 181% exclusive damage to "one" skill.
Somewhere along the line someone decided the game was not about team cooporation and became about 1 man army type habadashery.

If thats the case; why is there even a party system at all then? Just solo full party of 1 style all day :\

[Gardios]

I hope you like taking 32% less damage thanks to Guard Stance! Oh wait, that has no effect on incoming Ranged or Tech damage unless you spend even more SP!

Guard Stance giving R-DEF after the rework was the best change that never happened...

[AgemFrostMage]

I think other classes need to go through a thing like force where they can either have a jack of all trades tree like a fire/lightning hybrid or three specialization trees. Like hunter can have damage bonus to wired lance, partisan, or sword. The techer tree is most well done but I'd swap PP convert and Charged damage up 2's places from the force and techer tree since force benefits from PP convert much more. The techer extra gears look blah, too much emphasis on the striking part instead of maybe a range increase or something.

[Sayara]

Well, techer is trying to be about Melee oriented force work. A battle mage if you will. Just not really... focused good enough for that? I mean i really like that on the bottom of 15 points off the wind tree is FINALLY an S-Atk boost.

[UnLucky]

Good thing I'm using Guard Stance for damage.

So you're using it to be a worthless sack of shit then? Okay, blacklisted.

I'm sure you're thoroughly enjoying your solo play.

[supersonix9]

who actually cares, like for real

this is casual game; learn people

[Nitro Vordex]

who actually cares, like for real



So you're using it to be a worthless sack of shit then? Okay, blacklisted.

I'm sure you're thoroughly enjoying your solo play.
This guy, apparently.

[supersonix9]

Okay, blacklisted.
never go full retard

This guy, apparently.
oh well

[Enforcer MKV]

No, im sorry I don't agree with that Enf.
Make them perks maybe; but I like some of the skills and whatnot here.

If you go Tank HU anyway theres some pretty fun things you can get.
But... who plays for being bulky anyway :<

Maybe if Sega could balance the trees, it'd be fine - really, if it was done well, it'd be great. But seriously, all they do is add new skills. That's not balancing, that's trying to avoid the problem by burying new skills under piles of crap. It's sh*tty game design and I bet a big part of why they don't go back and rebalance is because that means they'd have to give out free resets because they're changing skills around, and they don't want to lose money.

I mean, seriously - there are jumps and dips in what people like to consider 'viable' and half the time it hinges on one or two skills, then they come on here and swing their e-peen around like it's important, or call you useless or retarded if you go into something that isn't 'optimized'. Some skills are just too good, and some aren't good enough - and Sega is too scared to go back and actually fix them.

[Zorafim]

I didn't bother reading the thread. The current skill trees are crap. There's nothing else for me to say.

[GuardianGirth]

A lot of the skills in this game are kind of retarded.

Just reversal Should be an innate ability for everyone. All gears should just be at the top so you can choose which one you want, not in specific locations down the tree.

Step attack/Just Guard/just counter/PP Charge revival should be innate.

Hunter defensive skills need a lot less requirement on previous skills and there really should be no S-attack Ups on that side at all.

Ranger Traps shouldnt have to go through weak hit advance at all and definitely need a power boost.

Special bullets should start on 1 whole side as well, not through weak hit and attack ups.

Gunner tree probably makes the most sense out of the non FO trees honestly.

Photon flare needs to be a % boost to be any useful. Let alone the ice tree having ridiculous length down the tree compared to the others.

PP Boost 1 and 2 should add 20 at lv10, not 10.

All of techer's support skills should be on 1 side. Wand skills in the middle and element boosts on the other side.

Element weak hit should be 40% good god, or at least 30%.

Rapid shot needs to not suck on its own and not just be a 3rd temporary stance.

Braver tree just needs more.

Anyone ever notice how many skills each class has?

(Not counting regular guard or step/dodge roll/mirage)

Hunter: 35

Fighter: 27

Ranger: 28

Gunner: 25

Force: 30

Techer: 31

Braver: 26


Honestly, all classes should have the same amount of skills, A lot of the repeated S attack up 1/2/3 etc shit could easily be replaced or rebalanced. While im impressed this game had skill trees to begin with, I hope a year from now we're saying "remember when the skill tree was this stupid blah blah"

[MetalDude]

You go at least three quarters retard and stop, but it might be too late.

[gigawuts]

yeah but he's right about everything he said

[Shadowth117]

Oh don't get me started on Photon Flare...

Its a skill that reduces your hp to around what... 75% or so? But for only THIRTY seconds. 30. That's not enough to do almost anything. And for the boost it gives? Doesn't even match up to the other tree's masteries even if you put all the points you can into it and that's only when its active. That's absolutely retarded. Especially when you consider the time you spend without it you're even weaker than that. And in my opinion, a missed opportunity.

Look at all the melee classes; they have similar ideas in the stances, but those stay on with the negative effect in place for their duration. If you did that with Photon Flare, you could have a really amazing glass cannon sort of deal going on. You only work with 75% of your hp, BUT if you get a massive % boost for all techs it could be absolutely amazing.

Maybe you'd like to argue that that's not enough of a detriment with 75% hp, but look at fury stance. Hell, look at AVERAGE stance. Where's the detriments there? 75% of your hp can make you go from 600 to 450 health which is pretty scary if you ask me. Giving a decent boost to go along with and stay with that would be awesome in my opinion. Hell, make Photon Flare power up other attack types too and we might actually have a reason to sub Fo on anything that's not techer suddenly that doesn't involve class leveling.

[UnLucky]

Maybe if Sega could balance the trees, it'd be fine - really, if it was done well, it'd be great. But seriously, all they do is add new skills. That's not balancing, that's trying to avoid the problem by burying new skills under piles of crap. It's sh*tty game design and I bet a big part of why they don't go back and rebalance is because that means they'd have to give out free resets because they're changing skills around, and they don't want to lose money.

I mean, seriously - there are jumps and dips in what people like to consider 'viable' and half the time it hinges on one or two skills, then they come on here and swing their e-peen around like it's important, or call you useless or retarded if you go into something that isn't 'optimized'. Some skills are just too good, and some aren't good enough - and Sega is too scared to go back and actually fix them.

I really, truly wish people could do "what they want" and still be contributing party members, but despite the original complaints in the first post, some builds really feel like an NPC partner would fill the spot better sometimes. And get me some extra FUN points to boot.

[Goukezitsu]

I dunno first post is crazy so I'm not going to take that too seriously. Trees are fine. Some skills suck but every skill isnt meant to be completely amazing due to the fact that they dont want us to be completely strong one man army does the world. As time goes on and as levels increase we will be able to do things that are mentioned. You have to remember these trees are made with the scope that we're going to be a higher level with more sp at some point so if they gave out the bonuses as suggested higher levels would be meaningless and at lower levels you would be even stronger than what you can be with a capped subclass already. New players would cut through the lower difficulties and wouldn't learn anything about the game until higher difficulties making a new wave of players that have no idea how to play the fucking game. Its pacing and its planning for the future.

Also, currently a lot of classes are fine. They balanced a lot of them and the new PAs make some weapons worth a shit now. The problem isn't really the trees but the content that warrants situations to require these skills. Currently the game is all about damage because of the ability to one shot, but once that goes away in super VH you'll start to notice other classes being emphasized and shit like forces casting resta come into existence because the party would be detrimental without it.

Let's take Warcry for example. Right now warcry seems kinda useless when dps on hunter can usually draw aggro anyway and having a boss stationary on 1 target doesn't really matter at the moment. Lets say later on we get bosses that do massive damage every swipe making non defensive classes useless if they have aggro cuz they will just die and dps dropping from having to chase the boss. That would make warcry and guard stance useful because now you'll be moreso tanking the bosses to maintain position, keep dps up, and keep the party alive. And fuck this is longer than I intended.

tl;dr after new balances trees are fine now and are made the way they are because they have team dynamics and higher levels in mind for the future and content makes certain skills seem less useful.

edit: braver does need that charge working for sakura endo and kanran tho but they said they are looking into that.

[Dnd]

I really, truly wish people could do "what they want" and still be contributing party members, but despite the original complaints in the first post, some builds really feel like an NPC partner would fill the spot better sometimes. And get me some extra FUN points to boot.

I've yet to meet anyone who gets out-damaged by a lv60/60 npc, you must be deluded or something lol

[TaigaUC]

PSO2 has the worst designed skill (talent) trees I've ever seen in any game, as far as I can recall.

It's not just a matter of what the skills (talents) do.
It's the position of each skill on the trees, balance between the trees, point requirements and distribution for each skill, how each skill changes the gameplay, etc. Everything is terrible.

Not to mention that when there's an imbalance, the best they can do is add a new Photon Art or Tech that trumps all others, or change/add a skill to increase damage done by ridiculous amounts. I'd like to see more focus on gameplay elements other than damage.

I'm not saying these things to argue or get people upset that their beloved game has flaws, or to merely whine and complain. I'm expressing frustration that the devs have such terrible design sense and have no idea how to fix problems they created. It's also frustrating when it seems most people can't imagine better or don't want better, so they defend it as if their lives depended on it.

[Zenobia]

I've yet to meet anyone who gets out-damaged by a lv60/60 npc, you must be deluded or something lol

I think that was the joke including you even caught it lol.

[Walkure]

I've yet to meet anyone who gets out-damaged by a lv60/60 npc
Challenge accepted. (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05orb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik8bWI zIzIbIn0000000lb000009b000009b2QIxJkIkjbn0009b0000 00j4OId5dfcK8GKc20000lb00000f)

[Zenobia]

Challenge accepted. (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05orb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik8bWI zIzIbIn0000000lb000009b000009b2QIxJkIkjbn0009b0000 00j4OId5dfcK8GKc20000lb00000f)

I raise you this.

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05orb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik8bWI zIzebGOGOjmxIkik000000Ib000009b000009b00000ib00000 0j4Ods5dfJk8GK00007b00000f

[UnLucky]

Worst possible skill trees (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?054Rb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik8bWI zIzcBxIGAj4XGK8cA00000jcBINjsSHnIkICrA0000fcBIQIdG Q5xdAIkdni200002ObqIXmxIkjbn0008kbcdfqnmvI3ANIk000 004OIdcDIkIkjGDcfk000062OqB4NIoHsf5IcBIk0006)? I can do that.

[Arrow]

Worst possible skill trees (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?054Rb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik8bWI zIzcBxIGAj4XGK8cA00000jcBINjsSHnIkICrA0000fcBIQIdG Q5xdAIkdni200002ObqIXmxIkjbn0008kbcdfqnmvI3ANIk000 004OIdcDIkIkjGDcfk000062OqB4NIoHsf5IcBIk0006)? I can do that.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Squirrels: The God tier build has been revealed! ALL HAIL! *puts on helmet with a stupid grin plastered on face*

Anyway to the OP. It's not the system. It's just you.
Now the one thing I think everyone can agree on is the lack of SP to really do anything with the Skill trees. With the SP as it is, things are annoying due to the arrangement of everything...or well most of the things.
Next up: methinks ya have the misconception that these skills are sort of active. Could be me misinterpreting but let's be real here: If you expect crazy numbers like 20% then yer from a different game indeed...

Now to "shoot down" (oh aren't I witty~) your Bullet Bow Rapid Shot argument. Yes you do lose 25% damage when ya do the "what you see" math. But this game is full of "what you see ain't what you get." Or...well...tbh "What you see...and then the what you don't see."
What do you see? A loss of base damage output. What you don't see: PP regen. What does that translate to? More PAs. What is the greater damage output "skills" in the game? PAs and things like Stances. Now there's a few other things like attributes but that's another story altogether here..

So case and point: Skill trees are fine, SP is not. Skills are fine, it's just a careful balancing act of distributing SP to the right skills to maximize effectiveness.

[supersonix9]

equip sine stance; allows you to equip all classes at once

you can basically just look at an enemy and kill it

[Korazenn]

Worst possible skill trees (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?054Rb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik8bWI zIzcBxIGAj4XGK8cA00000jcBINjsSHnIkICrA0000fcBIQIdG Q5xdAIkdni200002ObqIXmxIkjbn0008kbcdfqnmvI3ANIk000 004OIdcDIkIkjGDcfk000062OqB4NIoHsf5IcBIk0006)? I can do that.

If someone actually did this...no...what am I even saying? Out of all the three million registered users, SOMEONE out there must have a skill tree like this! XD

[Skyly HUmar]

My problem with skill trees is just how they work better for some classes than others. Some classes will benefit more from their sub's tree, than the class being subbed would get if it were the main class. Some classes let you get all the damage skills and then some with all the sp available atm, some classes you can use up all your SP on and you don't have enough to just get the damage skills. FO, TE and GU are probably the worst off though, gu and te dont offer much in their trees that is extremely useful damage wise, and you have to buy extra trees for fo in order for it to perform its best.

Some classes don't even have good PAs for the type of tree they have. HU for example, gives you two choices, you can either be a glass cannon or or a bulky striker, but only partisan PAs, 2 sword PAs, and some WL PAs are really good at attacking offensively, the rest are either really low dps/really slow by comparison and just make more sense to use from a just counter for quick low damage or when a boss is stunned and you are guaranteed to get that hit in without it moving/killing you. The gunner tree focuses on close range combat and launching enemies, and while most GU PAs do launch, lets face it, the only ones people really use are long ranged, and most people just end up skipping zero range.

The class balance is just really out of whack atm, and skill trees are partially at fault there. I would like a total start from scratch on some trees, they could remove some useless skills, add some helpful ones, reduce the cost for some, change some to work differently and better (like maybe replace zero range with jumping shot (gu equivalent of standing snipe that i just made up)) maybe they can even do something that would get people out of the power gutter and playing a fresh style instead of just popping out a new class to use a new weapon.

None of that matters though, sega is too lazy and or too ignorant of their own game's imbalance to really help any of it.

[Variant]

The gunner tree focuses on close range combat and launching enemies, and while most GU PAs do launch, lets face it, the only ones people really use are long ranged, and most people just end up skipping zero range.


I don't know about that. ZRA is the closest thing to a consistent damage boost on the Gu tree, and Heel Stab loves it. And thanks to the invincibility frames on S-Roll and how often you do it (for more deeps), you're relatively safe when close to a boss. I'm not really sure why most people would end up skipping ZRA. Next to the PP Restraint, it's probably the best thing on that tree.

Also enemy juggling might prevent your party from hitting it, which does more harm than good. I don't bother at all with AA on the Gu tree.


who actually cares, like for real

this is casual game; learn people

Eh. It's casual if you want it to be. But between XQs, AQs, farming for gear, etc... you can make it pretty intense. I think the game is easy-mode right now because item progression/damage progression doesn't match up with enemy progression at all. You can tell by the fact that S/D and Jellen are totally optional, and the last one isn't even considered.

Hopefully Super Hard is actually a relevant difficulty setting, and if at least 20% of the playerbase complains about how hard it is, then GJ Sega, keep it up.

More on topic... yeah, I'm a little sad I can't go around playing Te/Hu or Te/Fi because Te/Fo is significantly better in just about everything (DPS, PP regen/how long it can keep going).

Maybe if this game shifted from 'OMG, moar deeps' to 'Oh shit, this might actually wipe us', then it'd allow for more variety in skill builds. E.g. Ra/Te trap support! :D

Some thought when buffing or nerfing classes would be nice too... Especially with the subclass system in place which makes every change impact more than just one class (it impacts all the combinations!).

Like seriously, Ra -> Gu, both are ranged classes, and Ra 30 leads to Gu, so it makes sense that they'd be a good combo right? So then why 'fix' Gu damage with a mandatory (because you're not about to give up 200% damage) requirement before attacks, that nullifies a (possible) 30% boost from the Ra tree most of the time (Standing Snipe)? Meh. That thought process is beyond me.

[Kondibon]

My only problem with the skill trees is the cash gate (or waiting for sega to decide to update them) to change them. I get that sega needs money, but this is an important core gameplay feature. There are lots of ways to incentivise people to buy skill trees without limiting free players that harshly. Maybe limiting how often you can reset a tree to like once a day or something. Then people would think "Man, I have so many skill trees, maybe it would be better if I just bought some more instead of waiting a day to reset them". As it is now though, I feel like I'd be getting swindled if I bought more skill trees or skill tree resets.

That said, they DO need some more rebalancing, I'm actually kinda hoping they don't add to many more skills and instead just keep increasing the level cap and giving us more SP quests. The people talking about how little choice there is are right as well. Most skill trees only have one or two real choices with a lot of skills being deemed useless because sega doesn't seem to want to actually put any thought into balancing.

That said though. I thought of an interesting exercise. While I'm sure we'll get more skills anyway... why not see what it's like to have 125 skill points instead of just 70... I'd do it my self but even then I come up with pretty crappy skill trees. I want to see what the likes of UnLucky would come up with.

[Skyly HUmar]

I don't know about that. ZRA is the closest thing to a consistent damage boost on the Gu tree, and Heel Stab loves it. And thanks to the invincibility frames on S-Roll and how often you do it (for more deeps), you're relatively safe when close to a boss. I'm not really sure why most people would end up skipping ZRA. Next to the PP Restraint, it's probably the best thing on that tree.

Also enemy juggling might prevent your party from hitting it, which does more harm than good. I don't bother at all with AA on the Gu tree.

Good points, and i agree on both trust me ;p. It may just be me though, but i dont see many still using the pre elder/infinity PAs anymore.

[UnLucky]

That said though. I thought of an interesting exercise. While I'm sure we'll get more skills anyway... why not see what it's like to have 125 skill points instead of just 70... I'd do it my self but even then I come up with pretty crappy skill trees. I want to see what the likes of UnLucky would come up with.
~tHe CaLLoUt~

Sounded fun, so I gave it a try.

Looks like for anything other than Force or Techer, 125 SP is way too much (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05fb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0jebk bqBGXsOmqIscAJkfGAIb00000jebJbGBcBGKsOJIHDdBIb0000 dBJdJ2IdGFcAcAdx2NHN0000dB2QJ2cFJIJdGAqobs00064OIk 2XJkqnrAcCcAcKIO00006kbIdHXfGSIkJ2qxHXIo00007OqB4S dnmxsXJ2HnHS0006). Also here's a possible 125 SP Wand Build (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05bnb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbI n0000000lb000009b000009b00000ib000000jkb2XHXfGSI2J 2IbfGOcF0000lb00000f).

[Kondibon]

~tHe CaLLoUt~

Sounded fun, so I gave it a try.

Looks like for anything other than Force or Techer, 125 SP is way too much (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05fb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0jebk bqBGXsOmqIscAJkfGAIb00000jebJbGBcBGKsOJIHDdBIb0000 dBJdJ2IdGFcAcAdx2NHN0000dB2QJ2cFJIJdGAqobs00064OIk 2XJkqnrAcCcAcKIO00006kbIdHXfGSIkJ2qxHXIo00007OqB4S dnmxsXJ2HnHS0006)
That wand build looks a lot like what I came up with. And you're right, 125 SP IS a bit too much for most classes (especially braver), but it kind of highlights which trees need the most working on, and where new skills could be placed without breaking too much. Of course Hunter and Fighter still need better right sides to their trees in general, ranger's traps still need a serious buf. :/ I still like my idea of scaling flat bonuses for some things *coughphotonflaircough*.

[Zorafim]

I still haven't read the thread, but I skimmed over some people's posts. It looks like some people think that a skill tree is only well balanced if the skills you pick up are good. And other people are thinking it's alright that there aren't many good skills. I just want to interrupt this thinking to bring this to everyone's attention.

A good skill tree is one that lets you chose how you play. Take PSO as an example. Ideally, each class in that game corresponds to each class in this game. And with that thinking, each race combination should correspond to the different trees for each class. Now, that game wasn't balanced either, so it's hard to really give any meaningful examples using it. But, I could say that HUcast was a pure hunter build, HUnewearl was a hybrid melee/support build (why isn't that a thing anymore? I liked when that was a thing.), and HUmar was somewhere in the middle (and sucked?). Force was better built, allowing you to specialize in different things. FOmarl was pure support, FOmar was hybrid spell/melee, FOnewm was AoE build, and FOnewearl was single target.

What I'm trying to get across is that skill trees are supposed to modify how you play. But, they kind of don't. And that's what makes them suck. The most meaningful choice is, what... Whether you have good fire spells over thunder spells? What other choice can you actually make with the current system?

The problem is that it doesn't offer any meaningful choices. If, for instance, all force skills only increased the effectiveness of one element, then it'd be a choice on what element you want. Or, if damage vs survivability was an actual choice in this game, then fury vs guard would be a meaningful choice. But as it stands, all that a tree is is a collection of skills. And a meaningful skill tree is the one that picks up all the good ones, and leaves out the sucky ones. And once you have that, then you get cookie cutter trees, and then everyone either makes the same choice, or sucks. Then, there's no meaningful choice.

So, to summarize: The current skill trees are crap. There's nothing else for me to say.

[gigawuts]

Well, it depends on the goal. In some games skilltrees are used to customize your class to varying depths. Some games add tons of new active abiliities, others rely on stat bonuses (significant ones, usually).

PSO2 doesn't really do either. It feels less like class customization and more like class locking. In other games it feels like you're unlocking strengths and roles, in this it feels like you're locking away roles. Bad roles? Good roles? Depends on the class. It also doesn't help that most abilities seem influenced by old games, with very little on the trees actually being innovative or new. Changing elemental specs used to be as easy as changing weapons, after all.

It wouldn't be quite as bad if you could reset for free as often as you wanted, but that's tied to a fee (a rather pricey one at that) so people are forced to plan for the long term. If we could experiment more freely we'd have better feedback to give and the game would benefit as a whole.

[AgemFrostMage]

The big problem with the skill tree concept is developers instead of giving players extra tools actually gimp them in necessary areas. In World of Warcraft it had an okay system but the trees were too restricted somewhat you needed to spend a fixed amount of points before going further in the tree so no unlocking shadow dance as soon as possible:

http://wowtal.com/#k=xWbJKrum.bqj.rogue.

After a certain time it lets you go into other trees at least that was good. So PSO2 at least has more freedom and if you go fire you aren't locked out of lightning skills.

[Kondibon]

Well, it depends on the goal. In some games skilltrees are used to customize your class to varying depths. Some games add tons of new active abiliities, others rely on stat bonuses (significant ones, usually).

PSO2 doesn't really do either. It feels less like class customization and more like class locking. In other games it feels like you're unlocking strengths and roles, in this it feels like you're locking away roles. Bad roles? Good roles? Depends on the class. It also doesn't help that most abilities seem influenced by old games, with very little on the trees actually being innovative or new. Changing elemental specs used to be as easy as changing weapons, after all.

This made something click for me. The way they have skills set up... would be fine if you could eventually max everything.

Having something needed to fulfill a certain roll isn't that bad when you can eventually get everything and it's just a matter of When. Look at games like DMC and Vindictus, where you technically have unlimited access to the resource used to learn and increase skills, you can eventually get everything.

The other side of the coin would be to, like many others have said, give more freedom of choice, and get rid of the damn money gate. Guild Wars 2 and DCUO are very good about this, because they know how important build making is to the game and how much something as simple as adding a different area can change the meta.

All of this stuff feels like no-brainers. I wonder how sega screwed it up so bad.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying that they should make it possible to max everything, that would be silly for PSO2, just that the way the system is set up it's LIKE we're supposed to be able to max everything, yet we can't, so it falls short.

[FreelancerRaiko]

I think with how large this discussion has gotten, it's pretty evident that there are at least some problems with the tree. I'll admit me saying before a point should give you 20% more damage was a little outrageous (maybe every 4 or 5 points?) but the point is they could have done far better with it than they did. I mean lets face it, some of us are pretty limited on photon arts as it is and skill trees is a class of rpging that's supposed to be a driving force behind games in order to improve ones character and come up with their own builds for it. If there's only one build in a skill tree that's actually worth while, what's event he point?

[Kamekur]

~tHe CaLLoUt~

Sounded fun, so I gave it a try.

Looks like for anything other than Force or Techer, 125 SP is way too much (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05fb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0jebk bqBGXsOmqIscAJkfGAIb00000jebJbGBcBGKsOJIHDdBIb0000 dBJdJ2IdGFcAcAdx2NHN0000dB2QJ2cFJIJdGAqobs00064OIk 2XJkqnrAcCcAcKIO00006kbIdHXfGSIkJ2qxHXIo00007OqB4S dnmxsXJ2HnHS0006).

Yeah, you could get a lot of extra skills that might help, or, you could just maximize your damage:

Fi/Hu (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05dGb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikdt0i bkIxbGXsOGDIsIkJfdGA4OIk00000febJbGBcBGKsOcAJkIbIb 0000Ib000009b0fgAbp0007b000000lb000000lb00000f): Basically all S-ATK buff skills that are least situational maxed.

Ra/Hu (S-ATK for Partizan) (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05dUb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3IkfcZi 4l5ebIoGAGXsNGDI2IkJfdGA4NIk00000ib000009bJgJ2IdGF cAfdxJIHN0000Ib00000ib000000lb000000lb00000f) : Everything you'd like to get to maximize damage, with enough ABL for Emperor Axeon.

Force (all subs) (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05uDb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikjdt9 bIn0000000jebHoJbHNJkHniArA0000ib000009b00000fGBIk 2XsXqnBncAcAcKIb00006GOIkIkcHdsI2J2qxHXIb00007OqBG AIkFXrkJ2Jd0008): I had special trouble with this one. Force needs a lot of mandatory skills to buff damage. If you get both fire and ligthning mastery, the few remaining SP can be put on either T-ATK up 1 and 2 for +100 ATK all the time, or Photon Flare + Advance for +400 T-ATK for 30 seconds. However, discarding one of the elemental masteries, you can max the Photon skills and get T-ATK up 2 to lvl 5. For Techer, I went down the dark tree + PP C for fire. As for Braver, I maxed katana combat finish because it might be helpful in Nab II. I didn't get any extras in the Fighter tree, because there are none.

Gu/Hu (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05ehb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikfdt0 ebIoGAGXsNGDIkJbJiGA000007b000009b000009b2XJ2J2JIc DGA4Obp0007b000000lb000000lOqB00000): I moved automate to Hunter tree because it has more SP to spare, and it triggers earlier (50% vs. 25% of Gu). I removed the S-ATK the Ra/Hu tree has because, unlike Ranger, Gu/Hu doesn't need Partizans.

Having only 70 SP is just half of the problem. This game has no difficulty, and it only rewards raw damage. It's just like if they threw tree branches there without even considering how helpful would they be, if they'd even be necessary, or if they would be balanced against damage. These branches feel like cool extras you can easily do without.

[Kondibon]

Having only 70 SP is just half of the problem. This game has no difficulty, and it only rewards raw damage. It's just like if they threw tree branches there without even considering how helpful would they be, if they'd even be necessary, or if they would be balanced against damage. These branches feel like cool extras you can easily do without.

This is something they could easily solve if the game wasn't so unforgiving in the randomness side of things. I feel like a good chunk the stuff is balanced with people using barely grinded 7* gear and no skill trees (or at least crappy ones) in mind right now, I say this because it's what I've been doing and, while stuff takes longer, I don't really have any problems. I'm perfectly fine with this on my end but I do think there need to be some higher end content for those who want it. It doesn't sound like XQs are cutting it.

[Kamekur]

This is something they could easily solve if the game wasn't so unforgiving in the randomness side of things. I feel like a good chunk the stuff is balanced with people using barely grinded 7* gear and no skill trees (or at least crappy ones) in mind right now, I say this because it's what I've been doing and, while stuff takes longer, I don't really have any problems. I'm perfectly fine with this on my end but I do think there need to be some higher end content for those who want it. It doesn't sound like XQs are cutting it.

The problem is the gameplay system itself. There's a bunch of defensive skills which remain useless once you learn the mobs'/boss' patterns to be able to dodge them.

There's no attack in the game that is hard to dodge and instantly-kills. If that attack existed, deband cut, flash guard, iron will, guard stance and skills of the sort would make sense.

Aggro skills usually end up being a bother because the aggro skill users need to sacrifice damage to get skills, and usually end up running away, slowing down the whole party. And doing raw damage gets you aggro as efficiently as the skills themselves.

Bind doesn't work on bosses. And binded mini-bosses can still attack when binded. Caterdran, Wolga, are good examples of how useless Bind would be. I don't think I even need to mention how fast mini-bosses die anyways.

Take a look at the new modified branches of the Force and Techer skill trees, ice and wind respectively. The new skills are just cluttered in a straight line down, which clearly shows the effort they put to "balance".

[Vandread]

Take a look at the new modified branches of the Force and Techer skill trees, ice and wind respectively. The new skills are just cluttered in a straight line down, which clearly shows the effort they put to "balance".

That problem lies in SEGA's unwillingness to hit the hard reset button on everyone's skilltrees. I believe they don't want to do this because to them it feels like they're forcefully taking something away. Granted, if done without warning, some people may not recall their builds - but with warning up front of this happening it seems like a non-argument.

All in all, as it stands, without hitting the hard reset button for the skill trees, they can't really do much. They can only add additional skills, and 'open up the tree' (moving stuff down, so they have space to shove an additional skill in) if it has to be done. They can increase the SPcap on skills, but not decrease it. They can decrease prerequisite skill levels, but not increase them, etc.

A full tree revamp is outright impossible unless they hit that hard reset button. And considering they've been handing out these full reset passes, instead of opting to do a reset with warning up front, it shows they aren't planning on going with that option either...

[gigawuts]

We called this before the game even launched.

"This tree looks really bad. You guys think they'll ever fix it? I don't. I think they'll do very rare rebalances for utterly broken stuff, but otherwise they'll just try to make bad branches better with good stuff at the ends. Meanwhile, other branches will be good the whole way, and those new skills won't offset their SP requirements."

1.5 years later

oh look at that it's exactly what's happening

[Cyclon]

We called this before the game even launched.

"This tree looks really bad. You guys think they'll ever fix it? I don't. I think they'll do very rare rebalances for utterly broken stuff, but otherwise they'll just try to make bad branches better with good stuff at the ends. Meanwhile, other branches will be good the whole way, and those new skills won't offset their SP requirements."

1.5 years later

oh look at that it's exactly what's happening
You people throw stuff like that around literally ALL the time. It would take a miracle for you to never be right on anything.

[gigawuts]

You people throw stuff like that around literally ALL the time. It would take a miracle for you to never be right on anything.

Geesh, so negative. Sorry? I don't know why my worst case scenarios are right so often :-?

[Laxedrane]

I am surprised wand lovers doesn't get an honorable mention on how crap it is>.> Although that has less to do with point and more to do with concept. I still like to take a Styrofoam bat to whomever thought that be a good idea.

[Kamekur]

I am surprised wand lovers doesn't get an honorable mention on how crap it is>.> Although that has less to do with point and more to do with concept. I still like to take a Styrofoam bat to whomever thought that be a good idea.

Oh, I haven't even bothered with wands. But now that I looked at the description, I can only say one thing: What the fuck Sega.

[Link1275]

That problem lies in SEGA's unwillingness to hit the hard reset button on everyone's skilltrees. I believe they don't want to do this because to them it feels like they're forcefully taking something away. Granted, if done without warning, some people may not recall their builds - but with warning up front of this happening it seems like a non-argument.

All in all, as it stands, without hitting the hard reset button for the skill trees, they can't really do much. They can only add additional skills, and 'open up the tree' (moving stuff down, so they have space to shove an additional skill in) if it has to be done. They can increase the SPcap on skills, but not decrease it. They can decrease prerequisite skill levels, but not increase them, etc.

A full tree revamp is outright impossible unless they hit that hard reset button. And considering they've been handing out these full reset passes, instead of opting to do a reset with warning up front, it shows they aren't planning on going with that option either...
Unfortunately, Sega is going to just keep doing that even if they do redesign the trees occasionally. And they'll do it just so that you can't get this tree setup: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05kEb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikdtdt dtdtdtdtdt2OGOGOGXJbJkGXJkJkJkGOJkIk00000f2OJbJbJb JkJbJkJkrKI200002OJkJkGXJk2XJk2XJkHS00002O2XJkJkJk JkJkrKbs0006GOJk2XJkJkJkJkJkJkHXI20000jGO2XJkJkJkJ kJkJkJkJkcF0000j2OqBJ22XJksXJ2JkHX0006

[AgemFrostMage]

I think they need to do a rebirth system where your stats are only slightly lowered and you fall back to level 1 (though max rebirth is still higher than normal), but no longer have an EXP cap and now have access to the new elite trees. Only available if you complete a story quest where you become an elite ARKs first. The new trees would have higher bonuses but also be better worked out, like after HP up skill are the three gears instead of burying sword gear under all these defensive skills, but the skills are below the gear in case anyone wants them.

[Kharn]

My main issue with the skill trees is how long it takes to feel like you're making progress. It obviously doesn't matter at max level but at first it does feel like your points are doing nothing. I found it pretty frustrating.

[Zorafim]

I think they need to do a rebirth system where your stats are only slightly lowered and you fall back to level 1 (though max rebirth is still higher than normal), but no longer have an EXP cap and now have access to the new elite trees. Only available if you complete a story quest where you become an elite ARKs first. The new trees would have higher bonuses but also be better worked out, like after HP up skill are the three gears instead of burying sword gear under all these defensive skills, but the skills are below the gear in case anyone wants them.

...how will this fix anything?

[Kondibon]

I think they need to do a rebirth system where your stats are only slightly lowered and you fall back to level 1 (though max rebirth is still higher than normal), but no longer have an EXP cap and now have access to the new elite trees. Only available if you complete a story quest where you become an elite ARKs first. The new trees would have higher bonuses but also be better worked out, like after HP up skill are the three gears instead of burying sword gear under all these defensive skills, but the skills are below the gear in case anyone wants them.That works in Mabi because it's so freeform most of your character progression is from skills anyway.... but as far as PSO2 is concerned I agree with Zorafim...


...how will this fix anything?

[Dragon_Knight]

I have to agree the skill tree set up is bad. I personally play FO/TE myself and the tree set ups are fairly illogical but yet so deep that if you fail to dedicate yourself to ONE tree you become a fairly horrible force all around.

Ice is the prime example force side, with it you can be a part time mega glass cannon with a meh exploding ice ability, which if you focus JUST on the Flare effect will cost you 56 points if you want to use the status effect enhancer of photon flare. If you want to go whole hog and add the freeze ignition stuff that will cost you all 70 points and you STILL have to pass up the damage/status boosters of ice techs.

Techer is better but not by much, the big stuff, shifta/deband, is up front. Everything else you pick whether you want to have a buffed PP restore rate and a elemental damage bonus, a temp increased PP rate with some extra dark damage, or you want 20 extra PP to cast that ONE extra wind tech OR attack with a wand that hits slight hard with each strike you make. Any one of these choices, mind you, prevents you from buffing up your shifta and deband to full power. Not that Shifta critical is...well critical....for survival.

The abilities you can dig up are good yes, PP revival, elemental weak hit, tech charge advance, ect. But they really can't be buried so deep and cost so much at the same time, or if they have to they really need to be stuff you more or less unlock for selection by spending a certain amount of points in a particular element total. Freeze ignition isn't good by any means, but if you have to pass up a buff to the freeze status effect to max out the ignition in the first place that kind of defeats itself.

[Kondibon]

I have to agree the skill tree set up is bad. I personally play FO/TE myself and the tree set ups are fairly illogical but yet so deep that if you fail to dedicate yourself to ONE tree you become a fairly horrible force all around.

Ice is the prime example force side, with it you can be a part time mega glass cannon with a meh exploding ice ability, which if you focus JUST on the Flare effect will cost you 56 points if you want to use the status effect enhancer of photon flare. If you want to go whole hog and add the freeze ignition stuff that will cost you all 70 points and you STILL have to pass up the damage/status boosters of ice techs.

Techer is better but not by much, the big stuff, shifta/deband, is up front. Everything else you pick whether you want to have a buffed PP restore rate and a elemental damage bonus, a temp increased PP rate with some extra dark damage, or you want 20 extra PP to cast that ONE extra wind tech OR attack with a wand that hits slight hard with each strike you make. Any one of these choices, mind you, prevents you from buffing up your shifta and deband to full power. Not that Shifta critical is...well critical....for survival.

The abilities you can dig up are good yes, PP revival, elemental weak hit, tech charge advance, ect. But they really can't be buried so deep and cost so much at the same time, or if they have to they really need to be stuff you more or less unlock for selection by spending a certain amount of points in a particular element total. Freeze ignition isn't good by any means, but if you have to pass up a buff to the freeze status effect to max out the ignition in the first place that kind of defeats itself.Maybe that's the whole problem... Skill TREES. If we could just pick which skills we wanted without prereqs this would be a lot less annoying. Particularly the trees with a bunch of stat ups as prerequisites to only marginally useful stuff. I'm lookin' at you Ranger Tree...

EDIT: That doesn't fix the fact that a lot of stuff is useless due to the nature of the game though.

[Cyclon]

Geesh, so negative. Sorry? I don't know why my worst case scenarios are right so often :-?
They really aren't.

[gigawuts]

They really aren't.

Geesh, so negative. Sorry?

[ReaperTheAbsol]

I think skills need to cost less and do more especially when the skill trees are expanded.

[Chdata]

Yeah, multiple 15-20% damage bonuses are bad, 40%-80%ish bonuses in damage are bad, skills that let you burst 500% damage every few minutes are bad, weak bullet is bad, any increase in damage whatsoever is completely useless and won't make a difference of almost doubling your damage.

[AgemFrostMage]

That works in Mabi because it's so freeform most of your character progression is from skills anyway.... but as far as PSO2 is concerned I agree with Zorafim...

Yeah, I guess not. Here are some pictures of reworked skill trees I came up with awhile ago, though it assumes a level cap of 60 so more skills would be added if they ever clean slate them:

Just imagine gunslash gear in place of partisan gear advanced and imagine PP convert in place of element weak hit, which stays with techer but techer gets something else instead traded from the fire tree.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa445/wow176/NewHunterTree1_zpsf350d56d.jpg

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa445/wow176/ForceNewTree_zps8da28fc4.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

I didn't do ranged because I don't have familiarity with those classes. Beating up dragons or anything with guns really doesn't feel all that special. No offense to ranger or gunner but just swords and magic are more mythical =)



And a Quna picture because I like her:

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa445/wow176/pso20130709_171655_149_zps8cfb74b0.png


http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa445/wow176/pso20130819_090605_007_zpsdf8b07b6.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

Has nothing to do with thread obviously, just want to make people smile =)

[Kamekur]

Yeah, multiple 15-20% damage bonuses are bad, 40%-80%ish bonuses in damage are bad, skills that let you burst 500% damage every few minutes are bad, weak bullet is bad, any increase in damage whatsoever is completely useless and won't make a difference of almost doubling your damage.

That's not the point. The point is that damage is all that matters in this game. If damage is the only factor that matters, then why the fuck do we have so many support skills? In most classes, usually there's only 1 or 2 ways to go, and a few (unnecessary) situational builds for TAs. And all of them just involve the way to squeeze the most damage.

Please tell me where War Cry could be useful over killing something faster.

Please, tell me what attacks are hard to avoid to require investment in HP, defensive skills like Guard Stance or Deband Cut, support skills, etc.

Even if you're a freaking glass cannon that dies in 2 hits, there's no penalty when you die. If you're in party, just get revived, and be more careful. If you're solo, just go back to campship.

This is not a point n'click MMORPG like WoW where you need to be able to take hits. You can just dodge all damage.

[Enforcer MKV]

Yeah, multiple 15-20% damage bonuses are bad, 40%-80%ish bonuses in damage are bad, skills that let you burst 500% damage every few minutes are bad, weak bullet is bad, any increase in damage whatsoever is completely useless and won't make a difference of almost doubling your damage.

Er...ah...well, when people want to do something other that deal damage, like heal or be able to walk through damage like it's nothing, and the majority of the player base goes "Why you no full deeps?" ...Yes, it is bad.

[SPOILER-BOX]Let's take En for example. He's a RA/TE. I love it - I have my rifles, I have my launcher in the rare cases I want to blow something up, I have the WB that everyone seems to be in love with, I can see traps (Trap Vision is sexy), I can heal, I have buffs, I don't have to rely on a numerically limited healing source (mates) or a random or trigger based heal (mag trigger actions), and I can take my wand out when I want it and start beating people over the head with a mace! I absolutely adore it, my friends enjoy it, and we laugh and joke about the giant refrigerator hitting things with a metal stick. Game is great when I'm playing with friends. I have fun.

Then I try playing with randoms and it turns into a living. hell. I've been called worthless. I've been told my build is a completely unoptimized piece of shit. I've had parties that actually started off talking about what they're going to do, find out what class I am, and then at the end of the run, they all say they have to go. Then five minutes later I'm looking for another party and I see the same three people running missions again. These are people that I've never played with before, of course, but they're also people who fall flat on their face next to En and don't hit the space bar at the right time, so I throw a heal out before they get that healing item off. People that I put WB on enemies for so they get to kill faster. People I buff and increase the damage of. It shouldn't matter if my damage isn't 'the optimal'. I shouldn't have people look at my non-pure DPS build and scoff at it. Seriously, the game isn't hard, I can operate damn fine by myself and even better in a party, because that's the point - En is support.[/SPOILER-BOX]

Aaaaanyway, the point of the above mini rant is meant to illustrate something. The game, the skill trees, the freaking community, are all too focused on straight damage.

Why do we even have defensive skills in the hunter tree if everyone just maxes all of the fury skills, why is Techer even a thing, since it's billed as support, when Sega doesn't care about anything other than freaking damage? What is so mindbogglingly hard about going back and and making something other than wailing on enemies actually respectable in this game?

[gigawuts]

Because Sega doesn't understand its own game.

[Zorafim]

I really want to contribute to this thread. I really do. But so far, the topic of conversation has not shifted away from "The current skill trees are crap. There's nothing else for me to say."

[Enforcer MKV]

Because Sega doesn't understand its own game.

Ugh, harshest reality of them all. This game's groundwork is so nice, too...

[Walkure]

Zanverse was a step in the right direction for making supporting work. It's a supportive field that amplifies damage (useful) that is amplified by wind mastery (something useful contributed by Techer). More active, rather than passive support, especially boosted by techer tree skills, would be best for enhancing support and techer in general.

[gigawuts]

Zanverse was a step in the right direction for making supporting work. It's a supportive field that amplifies damage (useful) that is amplified by wind mastery (something useful contributed by Techer). More active, rather than passive support, especially boosted by techer tree skills, would be best for enhancing support and techer in general.

Yeah, for some reason it feels better than shifta for support on the fly. Then again, I know the point is to use both. That said, I also feel Territory Burst needs to do something to increase duration of support techs. Increase it by, I dunno, 25% for 1 SP and then 200% for the full 10 SP investment? Maybe just 100% for the 10 SP? Maybe make it just a 5 SP skill?

What this would do for each skill is...
Longer duration for Zanverse, Megiverse, Zondeel, and Anti
More pulses for Shifta*, Deband*, and Resta

* Shifta & Deband buff duration still capped by 60 seconds (or more with Extend Assist), but each pulse would still contribute +15 seconds to the buff as allowed by your EA level

Longer duration for Zanverse and Megiverse means you get to cast it once and focus on your own offense for longer. S&D are the same, Resta too. Anti, well, lol anti.

Just something to change the pace of the thread, since Zorafim has a point about this being basically 10 pages of the same thing being repeated.

[Sakarisei]

Because Sega doesn't understand its own game.

The real problem is not SEGA. The real problem of it is Sakai, the true responsible of the game. The programmers, the only thing that they can do is obeying him. Sakai is the only person in PSO2's team programmers who decides about how making the game. Everything in the game is part of a dream made by him, which he thinks that everything that makes ingame is perfect.

He's not interested in ours, even in his japanese players, excepting launching and making fashion modes because he's gaining money in AC Scratch. The game is a true announcement portal which the unique "interesting" content is announcement of other games. You know, Maimai green, Code of Joker, ect...

I say this words because i've got a friend of a friend who works in SoJ, and thanks to him, i know really how it works sega with its games... and if you want to change it, we must recognize for it...

Greetings.

[gigawuts]

Well, yeah. They don't need to understand it. Or they might understand it perfectly, but they might not want to bother changing it because they know it's doing fine regardless. Scratch is selling, and that's the goal.

[Sakarisei]

They only want selling clothes, not gameplay. That's it. And yes, your AC is used for more clothes instead making a better gameplay... unafortunately

[Korazenn]

They only want selling clothes, not gameplay. That's it. And yes, your AC is used for more clothes instead making a better gameplay... unafortunately

I use Meseta to buy my clothes. The AC stuff I get is usually for game-related purchases (extra MAGs, skill trees, characters, support partners, scratch tickets, etc.). :-P

[gigawuts]

I use Meseta to buy my clothes. The AC stuff I get is usually for game-related purchases (extra MAGs, skill trees, characters, support partners, scratch tickets, etc.). :-P

You're paying someone monopoly game money to pay Sega.

The end result is the same. In fact, they're happy you're buying with meseta - it means people will turn to Sega instead of RMT if they want to buy game cash with real cash.

[Lostbob117]

They only want selling clothes, not gameplay. That's it. And yes, your AC is used for more clothes instead making a better gameplay... unafortunately

If they only wanted to make clothes/sell they would delete TACOs.

[Gardios]

Yeah, for some reason it feels better than shifta for support on the fly.

Because an extra damage number pops up. Simple statistical buffs will always feel worse unless they're OP.

Anyway, as for what I'd like to see them doing with the support aspect of Techer...
[SPOILER-BOX]
Remove Shifta/Deband/Resta Advance
Make [Element] Mastery X affect support techs

Territory Advance (10): Increase effectiveness/damage of support techs by Lv*2%.
Deband Cut (10): Same
Shifta Critical (10): Same
Anti Guard (10): Grants buff that protects from status abnormality for (10+Lv*3) s. (does Anti have ticks...?)
Resta Recovery (10): Grants buff that slowly heals you after taking damage. 15 s duration per Resta tick.
Territory Duration Up (5): Increases AoE duration of support techs by (1+Lv*0.5) s.
Boost Duration Up (5): Increases boost duration per tick by (Lv*2) s.
Extend Assist (5): Increase maximum duration of Shifta/Deband by (10+Lv*10) s.
Territory Burst (10): Doubles AoE of support techs for (70+Lv*5) s. 120 s cooldown.
Territory Burst Advance (10): Increase AoE and duration of support techs further.
Territory Burst PP Recover (10): Allies inside support AoEs recover (Lv*1) PP per second.
Territory Burst Follow (1): Support AoEs follow you.
Wand Gear (1): Something something... support techs boost the Gear gauge as well.
Territory Wand (1): Increase duration of support techs per wand hit depending on Gear gauge.



T-ATK Up 1 screw you Mirage Step
|
+-------------------+---------+-----------+
Territory Advance bla bla bla bla other stuff
| ... ...
+--------+
| Shifta Critical
|
+--------+ ...somewhere else:
| Deband Cut Wand Gear
| |
+--------+ +
| Anti Guard Territory Wand
|
+--------+
| Resta Recovery
|
+--------+
TB T Duration Up
| |
+ +
TBA B Duration Up
| |
+ +
TBPPR Extend Assist
|
+
TBF[/SPOILER-BOX]

Numbers pulled out of my arse obviously, but something along those lines. Maybe. I just want something fun to play with. Maybe even have support techs get secondary effects like damage over time, lowering enemy elemental resistant or giving a chance to inflict status ailments, though I feel like Rangers should get the debuffs instead with traps and bullets.

[gigawuts]

If they only wanted to make clothes/sell they would delete TACOs.

ahem:

You're paying someone monopoly game money to pay Sega.

The end result is the same. In fact, they're happy you're buying with meseta - it means people will turn to Sega instead of RMT if they want to buy game cash with real cash.

TACOs are a money supply to give free players an income source to spend on items bought with real cash.

[Lostbob117]

ahem:


TACOs are a money supply to give free players an income source to spend on items bought with real cash.

If they deleted TACOs people would be almost forced to spend real money on their costume.

[gigawuts]

If they deleted TACOs people would be almost forced to spend real money on their costume.

And they would all quit instead. Far far FAR more people will spend time playing a game to earn money in the free environment and use that to buy a costume than will spend real money for only a costume.

You have no idea how game economies work. Like for real. Stop.

[Lostbob117]

And they would all quit instead. Far far FAR more people will spend time playing a game to earn money in the free environment and use that to buy a costume than will spend real money for only a costume.

You have no idea how game economies work. Like for real. Stop.

All of them wouldn't quit though.

[Skyly HUmar]

All of them wouldn't quit though.

Actually i have a feeling that they would, the majority of the players use meseta mainly for outfits. If they become unable to get outfits all they would have to fall back on is mediocre gameplay that sega does not even attempt to fix for months at a time.

So id say that most if not all of the community would just up'n quit, and since the ones paying cash wouldn't be making the meseta they want to make, they'd just quit as well because they wouldn't be getting the good bang for their buck anymore.

[Lostbob117]

Actually i have a feeling that they would, the majority of the players use meseta mainly for outfits. If they become unable to get outfits all they would have to fall back on is mediocre gameplay that sega does not even attempt to fix for months at a time.

So id say that most if not all of the community would just up'n quit, and since the ones paying cash wouldn't be making the meseta they want to make, they'd just quit as well because they wouldn't be getting the bang for their buck anymore.

To be fair, the people who have shops are probably the ones who buys the most clothing. So they're already paying SEGA.

[Skyly HUmar]

To be fair, the people who have shops are probably the ones who buys the most clothing. So they're already paying SEGA.

I wont deny that, and im not going to pretend to know how it would end since this is my first "mmo". I just figured that if most players leave, the ones that remain will slowly die out from lack of companionship. Again, just my thought, no idea what would actually happen.

[Chdata]

I wish they didn't nerf money from drops in general. It used to be like 1k meseta per drop. Now it's crap.

[Lostbob117]

I wont deny that, and im not going to pretend to know how it would end since this is my first "mmo". I just figured that if most players leave, the ones that remain will slowly die out from lack of companionship. Again, just my thought, no idea what would actually happen.

I'm sure no one will know how it end up being like unless it actually happens. Right now the current system is working so they're going to stick to that.

[Sakarisei]

I use Meseta to buy my clothes. The AC stuff I get is usually for game-related purchases (extra MAGs, skill trees, characters, support partners, scratch tickets, etc.). :-P

You're not the only one, lol. Before May of this year, i had spent about 2k AC per 2 months, mainly because i was looking for more mags and more skill trees. You know, more variety, the same than you, excepting that i hadn't spent AC for scratch tickets :S

However, since i had seen the fashion mode in the livestream of May, my opinion of the game had been changed significantly.


If they only wanted to make clothes/sell they would delete TACOs.

Not necessarily. Furthermore, if they do it, they can say goodbye to PSO2, because in this game, there are 3 functions. TACOs, DF and new EQs...


You're paying someone monopoly game money to pay Sega.

The end result is the same. In fact, they're happy you're buying with meseta - it means people will turn to Sega instead of RMT if they want to buy game cash with real cash.

Unafortunately you're wrong. Their goal is obtaining AC, that's all. If players are trying farming meseta via TACOs AC Clothes, that doesn't mean nothing for SEGA. About RMTers, if SEGA has got almost no RMTers, is simple. Although we can see some japanese players who can say that PSO2 is the best, the lack of RMTers means that there are near no interesting in the game, but not because they prefer buying AC for some AC clothes.


I wont deny that, and im not going to pretend to know how it would end since this is my first "mmo". I just figured that if most players leave, the ones that remain will slowly die out from lack of companionship. Again, just my thought, no idea what would actually happen.

The game is actually dying slowly. If you remember the first days of the japanese version of PSO2, there were many people on it, but because they were dissapointed with the game, it's extremely rare that every server of the game (Not only 1 or 2, the 10 ones) filled of people.

The main problem of Sakai is that we're on his dream, that's it. He makes himself the game, so... don't get surprised if he doesn't listen his workers nor players from everywhere. He's the true responsible of turning the game into a shit TA championship which turns players extremely competitive while playing the game, but because the japanese community have allowed it, that's all.

[Lostbob117]

I wish they didn't nerf money from drops in general. It used to be like 1k meseta per drop. Now it's crap.

Yeah they nerfed that then added TACOs... Bad move on their part since that made the game more boring then it is already.

[Lostbob117]

You're not the only one, lol. Before May of this year, i had spent about 2k AC per 2 months, mainly because i was looking for more mags and more skill trees. You know, more variety, the same than you, excepting that i hadn't spent AC for scratch tickets :S

However, since i had seen the fashion mode in the livestream of May, my opinion of the game had been changed significantly.



Not necessarily. Furthermore, if they do it, they can say goodbye to PSO2, because in this game, there are 3 functions. TACOs, DF and new EQs...



Unafortunately you're wrong. Their goal is obtaining AC, that's all. If players are trying farming meseta via TACOs AC Clothes, that doesn't mean nothing for SEGA. About RMTers, if SEGA has got almost no RMTers, is simple. Although we can see some japanese players who can say that PSO2 is the best, the lack of RMTers means that there are near no interesting in the game, but not because they prefer buying AC for some AC clothes.



The game is actually dying slowly. If you remember the first days of the japanese version of PSO2, there were many people on it, but because they were dissapointed with the game, it's extremely rare that every server of the game (Not only 1 or 2, the 10 ones) filled of people.

The main problem of Sakai is that we're on his dream, that's it. He makes himself the game, so... don't get surprised if he doesn't listen his workers nor players from everywhere. He's the true responsible of turning the game into a shit TA championship which turns players extremely competitive while playing the game, but because the japanese community have allowed it, that's all.

You're forgetting XQs and AQs.

[Zorafim]

They only want selling clothes, not gameplay. That's it.

I'm not about to believe the guy who claims he's a "Friend of a friend of a guy who works in Sega" (nothing personal), but this statement makes a ton of sense. I can tell quite a bit of effort is being put into visuals right now, but I can't really tell you where effort is being put into with the gameplay. Obviously not the skill trees, or any kind of balance. Some is being put into animations, and I'm not about to scoff at the amount of work they put into those on a regular basis. But, where's the content? I was expecting to play the game by going through all the new stuff, and let my character level on her own. And she's stuck at lv50, because everything's a grind now.

...And the game is STILL much better than PSU. How is that possible!

[Chdata]

XQs are too restrictive to count, but AQs yea, that's like the only thing to do when you're a high level.

Also I really don't know why they would nerf monetary gain that also made playing anywhere you want viable, while forcing you to do the same thing again and again. Stupid.

[Enforcer MKV]

To be fair, the people who have shops are probably the ones who buys the most clothing. So they're already paying SEGA.

The only problem with this is that the ones with the shops rely on free players buying, since the vast majority of players probably aren't paying. If TACOs were cut out, then the Free players would have to resort to AQs, XQs, normal quests to gain money. While some would adjust to the change, a large portion would probably react negatively to the lose of such a large currency generator. As such they leave, unable to afford items they want. This affects the player shops because they no longer have as large a market buying their goods, and as such, they suffer, ruining their enjoyment of the game, which could lead to THEM leaving, which hurts Sega, because they lose premium payers.

EDIT:....ಠ_ಠ What the heck, I missed an entire page. Blasted econ tests sapping my concentration.

[Lostbob117]

Effort into to clothing? Please, they're mostly recolors.

[Zorafim]

Effort into to clothing? Please, they're mostly recolors.

Um... I suppose at most half it is. Can you tell me another game that puts out as many models in as quick a time as this game does, though?

[Walkure]

Didn't they originally nerf the meseta gains on random drops because PSE bursts were such large meseta fountains?

[Zorafim]

They definately nerfed meseta. I thought it was just when weapons were sold. But still, nothing has ever compared to TAs. Which is actually a shame, because they're a huge source of inflation.

[Sakarisei]

You're forgetting XQs and AQs.

XQs are extremely restrictive. Login daily for a ticket is, in a long period of time, extremely bored so...

About AQs, well, they're the same of Free Fields, excepting you farm stones for improving old rares for new ones. Unless you've got a great amount of risk, forget about trying farming AQ's exclusive rares because there are many japanese players who left the game because the extremely low droprates...


But, where's the content?

Depend of what type of content we refer...

If you refer clothing, there's always, and since May, there is even much more than the last year... so don't get strange about it, because they gain much money with clothes than gaming, and that's one reason that i can consider PSO2 as a second life... or a Habbo Hottel (Or other social game), who knows... :-?

EDIT: About gameplay content... at least they create some new maps, but unafortunately that's not enough :S


Didn't they originally nerf the meseta gains on random drops because PSE bursts were such large meseta fountains?

No. They nerfed it because every player who had got a lot of time could make many amount of millions, so...

[Skyly HUmar]

No. They nerfed it because every player who had got a lot of time could make many amount of millions, so...

Youre telling me? lol. I used to make 1.5m a day selling hard mode drops doing the two things i loved, capping all the classes, and hunting. But, hunting is just lolno now, i didnt regain my will to cap after the 10m to lv 50 shit and now instead of selling every hard mode drop for 700 meseta we sell vh drops at like 300 tops. Total loss.

[gigawuts]

Unafortunately you're wrong. Their goal is obtaining AC, that's all. If players are trying farming meseta via TACOs AC Clothes, that doesn't mean nothing for SEGA. About RMTers, if SEGA has got almost no RMTers, is simple. Although we can see some japanese players who can say that PSO2 is the best, the lack of RMTers means that there are near no interesting in the game, but not because they prefer buying AC for some AC clothes.

Uuuuuuuh, in what world do you live where legit and accessible forms of RMT do not directly combat RMT? In what world do you live where people will NOT buy clothes to resell if they want easy game money that won't get them banned?

[Lostbob117]

Um... I suppose at most half it is. Can you tell me another game that puts out as many models in as quick a time as this game does, though?

No, not half. http://pso2.jp/players/catalog/scratch/costume/20130821/ Most of those are from an old ps game or are just recolors of a new outfit they came up with.

[Gardios]

No, not half. http://pso2.jp/players/catalog/scratch/costume/20130821/ Most of those are from an old ps game or are just recolors of a new outfit they came up with.

You do realize they can't just take a model from an older PS game and put it straight into PSO2, right?

[Lostbob117]

You do realize they can't just take a model from an older PS game and put it straight into PSO2, right?

Yes, I know this, but they don't have to think of a style for the clothing since there is already one.

[Sakarisei]

Uuuuuuuh, in what world do you live where legit and accessible forms of RMT do not directly combat RMT? In what world do you live where people will NOT buy clothes to resell if they want easy game money that won't get them banned?

Have i said that a general lack of interesting in a game is the meaning of guaranteeing of cannot finding RMTers? NO.

Have i said that RMTers are seeling only OP chars? NO.

Only i've said that fame = RMTers, that's it. Otherwise, why some MMO games like WoW have got many RMTers? It's stupid being RMTer of a game which there are almost no one interested in the game, unless you want to risk in finding some people of many who wants buying an account of a boring and dissapointed game.


You do realize they can't just take a model from an older PS game and put it straight into PSO2, right?

Unafortunately... yes. And that's a risky movement that can make serious problems in the future of the game...

That's the same technic of other asian games (incluiding many chinese and some japanese games) which they convert the game into an announcement portal with one goal, selling you other products of the same company. That's some of sense of common, that's all.

[AgemFrostMage]

Guild Wars 2 has official real money trading, but the exchange rates were terrible last time I checked -_- A dollar for less than one gold is too little. Still, it's a step in the right direction but real money to in game currency ratio should be fixed not fluctuate. Take grinding in PSO2 for example: you have rares, and valuable AC scratch items, and plenty of people have many millions from selling.

No matter what ship you're on Dudu's rates are the same, so what is better, being where people are willing to buy a certain item for 1 million or 500,000? Though inflation is bad for the free player so both the undervalue and overvalue have pluses and minuses, and other than grinding the only things worth buying are from player shops anyway.

Gold selling used to come from a couple of college kids wanting to make money off MMO players, working and selling the product of their labor to others, then it became banned =(

MMOs have different rules than singleplayer, in MMO the vanish/doom techniques (FFVI reference) need to be ironed out whereas they're acceptable in single player for those willing to look.

[AgemFrostMage]

Uuuuuuuh, in what world do you live where legit and accessible forms of RMT do not directly combat RMT? In what world do you live where people will NOT buy clothes to resell if they want easy game money that won't get them banned?

I will say that even Guild Wars 2 had a botter problem. People kept saying, "The botters, we must get rid of them!" And I say, "Of course we should, but don't complain when resource prices get higher" Then they cracked down on the botters, and no one listens when I say don't complain. Besides, you can sell too you don't just have to be on buying end. Yes, legendary takes time and effort but great persistence deserves a reward. In this game the psycho wand is the legendary, if you run Falz infinite times you are guaranteed one. Of course, it isn't farmable so practically you will probably not have one, but for things like dragon slayer is guaranteed. If a drop is .001% then running 1,000 times gives a 1% drop chance, 10,000 10%, so it takes, yeah, not practical for farming I can see lol! Like buying many lottery tickets the chance goes up, but practicality diminishes with volume expense ratio.

"Yeah they nerfed that then added TACOs... Bad move on their part since that made the game more boring then it is already."

Yeah, TACOs are boring for the most part, but the good part is the guaranteed spawns so if you have a kill quest can just keep farming it and leave when mission is complete. The wonda kill order I farmed Amadeusca VH TACO then leave right after the start, then they nerf the kill requirements so I don't need to go far before I abandon it.

[Variant]

Yeah, TACOs are boring for the most part, but the good part is the guaranteed spawns so if you have a kill quest can just keep farming it and leave when mission is complete. The wonda kill order I farmed Amadeusca VH TACO then leave right after the start, then they nerf the kill requirements so I don't need to go far before I abandon it.

TAs are cool, they add something remotely competitive and give easy access to certain mobs (I've found you at last Pillbugs). TACOs are boring, because it's almost obligatory to do them as the single best (most accessible, easiest, time efficient (?)) method of making money.

I'd love to do XQs all the time, but it nets no where near enough per day (at 5 floors per day, or an entire 50 floor run every 10 days). So, TACOs are just another thing to add to the daily grind.

I hope the new Lilipa field will be super difficult. It'll be cool to have something to sink time into to try and beat.

[Kondibon]

real money to in game currency ratio should be fixed not fluctuate.

... Yes it should, because the price of gold ingame fluctuates. It should still be within player control though, I think GW2 uses some sort of automated system based on how much gold and gems are on the servers...

[AgemFrostMage]

... Yes it should, because the price of gold ingame fluctuates. It should still be within player control though, I think GW2 uses some sort of automated system based on how much gold and gems are on the servers...

No because let's say you have x amount of money, then you can buy a certain weapon. The price of the weapon goes up, yet your fixed money amount is the same. Now, you can buy gold to make up for it, right? No! The price of gold also goes up, making that method unattractive. With a fixed price your money will always go far and not be mitigated by ingame services becoming practically more expensive. This way money becomes more accessible for the player. Let's say item x sold by an NPC is needed, but it's expensive. If things on the market sell for high prices then everyone benefits as it mitigates the intentionally heavy expense of said NPC item. Goldsellers sell a lot of gold for the dollar, so official source would need to step up its game to compete.

Looks like the rates have vastly improved since I last played though:

http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

Have to grind Orr for long periods with a certain now nerfed quest chain for gold last I played -_-

[Laxedrane]

On the skill tree front. I always thought that gears shouldn't be on the trees at all. Instead gotten from and further powered up from where they are now(or have benefits added to them like quicker charge, less decharging) from completing weapon trainer quests.(Barbera/Joseph)

It makes sense to have it that way and especially makes gear less annoying by forcing you down a certain skill branch.

[pkemr4]

i find it stupid you have to be lvl 60 to get the full potential out of hunter as a sub class..... meanwhile gunner you can be lvl 45-50 and be done (unless you add R-atk to use better tmgs then 56) and lvl 48 you ranger is basically done as well.

[AgemFrostMage]

You need level 60 to get most out of techer sub depending on what you want too. My sub and dark trees are done for important things whereas my light and pp convert tree needs to finish element weak hit... and I wont have enough points to max light mastery 2 -_-

[jooozek]

i find it stupid you have to be lvl 60 to get the full potential out of hunter as a sub class..... meanwhile gunner you can be lvl 45-50 and be done (unless you add R-atk to use better tmgs then 56) and lvl 48 you ranger is basically done as well.

hahahahaha

[Alenoir]

Although we can see some japanese players who can say that PSO2 is the best, the lack of RMTers means that there are near no interesting in the game, but not because they prefer buying AC for some AC clothes.
I take it you were not around when every single lobby was filled with 900 waeklrjwer5rsr's camping Coffee all day and zap around the place and the account ban count per month gone up to as high as 100k.

Those are all RMT bots. SEGA actually did stuffs to killed that so we can play normally. There's a reason why the Japanese players praised SEGA for their anti-bot measure.

[Aussei]

When I hit lvl 60 I'll use my skill tree reset ticket, right, and then.... Get this... I'm gonna play without any skillpoints put into anything. And then, I'll tell you how I feel. After that, I think I'll have much more appreciation for the skill trees. At this point in time, I just work with what I got.

[UnLucky]

Wow this thread has gotten pretty crazy since the last time I checked it.


To be fair, the people who have shops are probably the ones who buys the most clothing. So they're already paying SEGA.
That's EXACTLY WHAT HE JUST SAID, did you even read the posts above you? I didn't really see this resolved, so I'll clear this up right now.

The F2P model works because many people play for cheap/free, building up a healthy population that will hardly dwindle. These players work as free advertisement for the game, while also giving everyone else more of a reason to play, you know, since there are lots of people to play with. It doesn't matter how much money these people spend. They'll come, they'll go, they'll play entirely for free, or they'll even buy a few knickknacks with real cash. That plays perfectly into Sega's favor.

See, there are a few people playing the game who spend The Big Bucks. They want the best stuff, the coolest stuff, the nicest stuff, they want the fame and the power, they want it all. But the thing is, the best in slot gear can't be bought with AC. The nice looking clothes and accessories are locked behind random item boxes. Is a single costume worth an indefinite amount of AC, possibly over $100? For some, maybe so, but I imagine very few players would buy scratch cards if the items weren't tradeable.

The large population of free players fuels the economy. They give the AC scratch items value. Paying players can turn AC into MST by selling their unwanted items, or even buying scratch cards for the sole purpose of turning it into in-game currency. This then allows the paying players to buy the expensive items on the shops, which wouldn't even be there in the first place without a healthy population.


Unafortunately you're wrong. Their goal is obtaining AC, that's all. If players are trying farming meseta via TACOs AC Clothes, that doesn't mean nothing for SEGA.
Directly related to the above and no, you're wrong. People farming meseta to buy AC clothes means a lot to Sega. Understatement of the year, right here. The more demand for AC clothes means the more valuable the commodity becomes which means more incentive for people to purchase AC to then sell AC clothes. If free players stopped buying costumes off the shops, paying players would stop selling costumes on the shops, and finally less people would buy AC scratch to begin with, since they could not then sell them.


No because let's say you have x amount of money, then you can buy a certain weapon. The price of the weapon goes up, yet your fixed money amount is the same. Now, you can buy gold to make up for it, right? No! The price of gold also goes up, making that method unattractive. With a fixed price your money will always go far and not be mitigated by ingame services becoming practically more expensive. This way money becomes more accessible for the player. Let's say item x sold by an NPC is needed, but it's expensive. If things on the market sell for high prices then everyone benefits as it mitigates the intentionally heavy expense of said NPC item. Goldsellers sell a lot of gold for the dollar, so official source would need to step up its game to compete.
This can lead to ridiculously skewed prices if they're never adjusted.

Like say you're starting out and 10g is a lot for you. Look up some nice gear in the shops, and the best stuff is all 50g or higher.

There is an in game feature that lets you directly buy gold with cash at a fixed rate of $1 for 10g. Wow, what a deal, I can totally gear myself out for less than $20!

Now as the game progresses, super rare uber gear exists and everyone's been farming the hardest areas for months on end. The current best weapon costs 10,000g, with entry level rares at only a thousand or so per piece. Chump change for anyone who's been playing the game for more than a week.

And yet it costs hundreds of dollars to directly purchase enough gold to barely compete with free players. Suddenly the idea becomes less practical, although some people will still do it.


i find it stupid you have to be lvl 60 to get the full potential out of hunter as a sub class..... meanwhile gunner you can be lvl 45-50 and be done (unless you add R-atk to use better tmgs then 56) and lvl 48 you ranger is basically done as well.
You pretty much have to be 50+ to get the most out of any class... Especially Gunner which has useful skills all the way until lv60 before running out of SP.

But whether it's 1% damage per level or just stats for equipment, they're still meaningful. And Killing Bonus isn't nothing; it certainly helps you keep the damage rolling.

[Imjake]

I see the stupids are out in full force on this post.

[Sakarisei]

Directly related to the above and no, you're wrong. People farming meseta to buy AC clothes means a lot to Sega. Understatement of the year, right here. The more demand for AC clothes means the more valuable the commodity becomes which means more incentive for people to purchase AC to then sell AC clothes. If free players stopped buying costumes off the shops, paying players would stop selling costumes on the shops, and finally less people would buy AC scratch to begin with, since they could not then sell them.

That's a thing that you think (And of course respectable), but that doesn't work of this manner. When Sakai looks at the income of their products, he only see how many money have obtained with his new content without worrying about the interesting of the players.

If customers buy lots of AC content because they want lots of meseta ingame because the interesting of the free players, that's a problem for them, but not for SEGA. Of course, if the game is much focused in clothes than in gameplay, that's the main reason.

[AgemFrostMage]

Wow this thread has gotten pretty crazy since the last time I checked it.


That's EXACTLY WHAT HE JUST SAID, did you even read the posts above you? I didn't really see this resolved, so I'll clear this up right now.

The F2P model works because many people play for cheap/free, building up a healthy population that will hardly dwindle. These players work as free advertisement for the game, while also giving everyone else more of a reason to play, you know, since there are lots of people to play with. It doesn't matter how much money these people spend. They'll come, they'll go, they'll play entirely for free, or they'll even buy a few knickknacks with real cash. That plays perfectly into Sega's favor.

See, there are a few people playing the game who spend The Big Bucks. They want the best stuff, the coolest stuff, the nicest stuff, they want the fame and the power, they want it all. But the thing is, the best in slot gear can't be bought with AC. The nice looking clothes and accessories are locked behind random item boxes. Is a single costume worth an indefinite amount of AC, possibly over $100? For some, maybe so, but I imagine very few players would buy scratch cards if the items weren't tradeable.

The large population of free players fuels the economy. They give the AC scratch items value. Paying players can turn AC into MST by selling their unwanted items, or even buying scratch cards for the sole purpose of turning it into in-game currency. This then allows the paying players to buy the expensive items on the shops, which wouldn't even be there in the first place without a healthy population.


Directly related to the above and no, you're wrong. People farming meseta to buy AC clothes means a lot to Sega. Understatement of the year, right here. The more demand for AC clothes means the more valuable the commodity becomes which means more incentive for people to purchase AC to then sell AC clothes. If free players stopped buying costumes off the shops, paying players would stop selling costumes on the shops, and finally less people would buy AC scratch to begin with, since they could not then sell them.


This can lead to ridiculously skewed prices if they're never adjusted.

Like say you're starting out and 10g is a lot for you. Look up some nice gear in the shops, and the best stuff is all 50g or higher.

There is an in game feature that lets you directly buy gold with cash at a fixed rate of $1 for 10g. Wow, what a deal, I can totally gear myself out for less than $20!

Now as the game progresses, super rare uber gear exists and everyone's been farming the hardest areas for months on end. The current best weapon costs 10,000g, with entry level rares at only a thousand or so per piece. Chump change for anyone who's been playing the game for more than a week.

And yet it costs hundreds of dollars to directly purchase enough gold to barely compete with free players. Suddenly the idea becomes less practical, although some people will still do it.


You pretty much have to be 50+ to get the most out of any class... Especially Gunner which has useful skills all the way until lv60 before running out of SP.

But whether it's 1% damage per level or just stats for equipment, they're still meaningful. And Killing Bonus isn't nothing; it certainly helps you keep the damage rolling.

I remember the forge stones some of the mystic forge weapons were even more expensive than precursors. At least in Guild Wars 2 a precursor is guaranteed because of the laws of mathematics and rare nodes can be had in many places even the PvP jumping puzzle. PSO2 needs something like the PvP puzzle but without the PvP (random code clone doesn't count I presume) since PvP balance is more important than PvE and suddenly no one wants wind or ice forces and fighters on their questing runs (traditional PvP classes and skills), but that is for another topic =)

[gigawuts]

Wow this thread has gotten pretty crazy since the last time I checked it.


[SPOILER-BOX]That's EXACTLY WHAT HE JUST SAID, did you even read the posts above you? I didn't really see this resolved, so I'll clear this up right now.

The F2P model works because many people play for cheap/free, building up a healthy population that will hardly dwindle. These players work as free advertisement for the game, while also giving everyone else more of a reason to play, you know, since there are lots of people to play with. It doesn't matter how much money these people spend. They'll come, they'll go, they'll play entirely for free, or they'll even buy a few knickknacks with real cash. That plays perfectly into Sega's favor.

See, there are a few people playing the game who spend The Big Bucks. They want the best stuff, the coolest stuff, the nicest stuff, they want the fame and the power, they want it all. But the thing is, the best in slot gear can't be bought with AC. The nice looking clothes and accessories are locked behind random item boxes. Is a single costume worth an indefinite amount of AC, possibly over $100? For some, maybe so, but I imagine very few players would buy scratch cards if the items weren't tradeable.

The large population of free players fuels the economy. They give the AC scratch items value. Paying players can turn AC into MST by selling their unwanted items, or even buying scratch cards for the sole purpose of turning it into in-game currency. This then allows the paying players to buy the expensive items on the shops, which wouldn't even be there in the first place without a healthy population.


Directly related to the above and no, you're wrong. People farming meseta to buy AC clothes means a lot to Sega. Understatement of the year, right here. The more demand for AC clothes means the more valuable the commodity becomes which means more incentive for people to purchase AC to then sell AC clothes. If free players stopped buying costumes off the shops, paying players would stop selling costumes on the shops, and finally less people would buy AC scratch to begin with, since they could not then sell them.[/SPOILER-BOX]

Don't dude. It's not worth it. You're better off joining a politics forum and debating there than trying to explain some of these things here. You could explain it perfectly, step for step, with cited sources, and they'd reply with something you shot down in the first paragraph because they didn't even read what you said they just wanted to appear correct on the internet where nobody actually cares whether they're right or not.

This is why I just drop out of threads like this. You explain shit perfectly, and the same dumb fucks decide that reading a post you're replying to is a strictly opt-in activity.