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PriestBelmondo
Sep 15, 2013, 09:14 PM
I was told by someone that the % on an element isn't actually for the element but that it is just "Raw damage power" and the element it self is it's own. I always thought it worked like it did in PSU. I'm confused about this so I'm sorry if what i said also confused you guys. But if someone can explain to me how element on a weapon works. Thank you

UnLucky
Sep 15, 2013, 09:23 PM
The element adds the stated number as a percent of the weapon's base Atk stat.

So if your weapon has 50 Light, and displays 800 Atk at +10 without affixes, you are getting an extra 400 Atk.

And unless this has changed, only that bonus portion is actually elemental. So against enemies who take 1.2x damage to Light, you will have an extra 80 Atk, not 240 or more.

Bellion
Sep 15, 2013, 09:28 PM
What you do is take the base stats of whatever your weapon is at and multiply it by 1.XX, where XX=element % on your weapon.
Example:
Guilty Light +10 will have 940 R-atk base. A 50 element will basically be 940 x 1.50= 1410. Even if you have R-atk affixes on the Guilty Light such as Mizer Soul and Shoot 3, it will only take 940 out of the 1000 R-atk because they don't count for elemental modifiers.

Now, I'm not entirely sure about elemental weakness. Let's assume the Guilty Light is 50 fire. If something is weak to fire by an extra 20%, it should take the 470(1410-940) contributed from the 50 element modifier on a Guilty Light and just increase that by 20%. That would be 470 x 1.2 = 564.

Welp, a little late.

PriestBelmondo
Sep 15, 2013, 09:35 PM
So just to be clear lets say i have 3 Different Yasi's, Fire, Dark, and Lightning, all 50% each with all the same affixes. Should I pretty much just use one? From what they told me the elemental doesn't really matter.

jcart953
Sep 15, 2013, 09:52 PM
Going off Bellions example, attacking with the right element (i.e a monster weak to light with a light weapon) would only gain you an additional 94 r attack.

So to answer your questions just depends on if your a min/maxer kind of person. Personally I do it with lower all class weapons like the hunter swords/partisan because there pretty cheap to obtain.

However I do remember that supposedly in super very hard (or w/e its called) element damage is suppose to play more of a big role. So might want to wait October to see how it plays out....

TaigaUC
Sep 15, 2013, 10:07 PM
The JP wiki has the formulas used in calculating the damage.
http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E5%B1%9E%E6%80%A7%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96

Scroll down to ダメージ計算 and click the arrow to expand the section.

PriestBelmondo
Sep 15, 2013, 10:12 PM
Thank you all for your responses

Lostbob117
Sep 15, 2013, 10:20 PM
Sega explains what it does on their site. If an enemy is weak to fire, fire will do more damage.
http://pso2.jp/players/manual/battle/field/property/

All you need to know is the higher that % is the more damage you'll to the enemy with that weakness.

Also, I think there was enemies weak to some elements that didn't show on their bar, such as x enemy is weak to x attribute by 1.5 and another x attribute by 1.2. It would only show the 1.2 one. Don't quote me on this, just incase I'm wrong.

However, none of that matters since it'll show the weakness the enemy is weakest against.

DKFox
Sep 16, 2013, 02:57 AM
How does weak stance come into all of this? Does the bonus from weak stance apply when you use a weapon with the correct element type?

If so :O

Rakurai
Sep 16, 2013, 03:09 AM
I believe weak stance only works if you're hitting weak spots for striking and ranged attacks, but for techs, it works if you're hitting an elemental weakness or a weak spot.

Kondibon
Sep 16, 2013, 03:11 AM
I believe weak stance only works if you're hitting weak spots for striking and ranged attacks, but for techs, it works if you're hitting an elemental weakness or a weak spot.

I've tested it, Weak stance doesn't activate if you use a weapon of the element an enemy is weak to. Though I remember sega mentioning that they changed the way element weak hit worked with weapons so that might include weak stance. I can test it again if no one else has.



Also, I think there was enemies weak to some elements that didn't show on their bar, such as x enemy is weak to x attribute by 1.5 and another x attribute by 1.2. It would only show the 1.2 one. Don't quote me on this, just incase I'm wrong.
This is partly true, though they changed a lot of displayed weaknesses, the displays seem to be arbitrary, but they recently changed them to take into account other things like tech resistance or overall resistance on bosses. Thats why Vol dragon has spots that don't have :ice: as their weakness. His overall damage resistance nulls it so even though those parts still technically take 20% more damage from ice, they also take 50% LESS damage from everything so it doesn't count as a "weakness" for weak stance, which only checks if your end damage would have a multiplier over 100% against that spot, if that makes sense. Element weak hit might be different though since I think it only checks if thir're damage multiplier for that element specifically is higher than 100%.

gigawuts
Sep 16, 2013, 08:53 AM
I've noticed some interesting quirks with weak skills.

Micda weak points don't qualify for weak stance. Why? It could be a programming error, or it could be the way the formula works.

Weak Hit Advance and Weak Stance only kick in on weak points, which almost all take more than 1x base damage. What doesn't take more than 1x base damage? You guessed it - Micda weak points. They have a 0.1 multiplier on every part but their weak point, which has a 1x multiplier. They also have a .2 multiplier to their head I think, so I want to test if that qualifies for weak hit advance some time later.

In the data files I haven't found anything about a hitbox being flagged as "weak" or not - only its multiplier to the base damage the enemy takes. I'm betting it's just hardcoded to check if something is taking more than 1x damage. If yes it takes extra damage. If no it doesn't. Simple as that.

For techs it would work exactly the same way. Is it taking more than 1x the base rate? Then it takes extra damage. This might benefit the elemental ATK found on contact weapons (guns & swords), but not in a large enough way to account for losing 59-75% damage (that is, the weak bonus & penalty combined). That is, even if it qualifies and you get your 57% bonus to elemental atk, that's still only another ~30% atk you pull out of your sword, best case. The rest of your damage is gimped across the board.

edit: for an example, let's say the enemy has 400 def, is weak to fire by 30%, and your sword has 800 atk with 50% fire element
you have 0 base atk for this, and no multiliers other than weak stance with weak stance charge to keep it simple, also this is an oversimplification that ignores dex, deal with it
Your elemental damage would be 400 atk with a fire element
Based on weak stance applying to the elemental damage, your damage would possibly be
((400*1.3*1.57+800)-400)*0.9/5 = (816+800-400)*0.9/5 = 219 (multiplied by the hitbox's multipliers, probably 1)
Compare to hitting a weak point (Weak Stance only applies one time to techs when hitting a weak point that's weak to the element, so I'll run with that)...
((400*1.3+800)-400)*1.57/5 = ((520+800)-400)*1.57/5 = 288 (multiplied by the weakpoint's weakness, probably 2)

Big difference - and this is assuming a lot of things are in favor of first formula, which may well not be at all.

Kondibon
Sep 16, 2013, 05:46 PM
I've noticed some interesting quirks with weak skills.

Micda weak points don't qualify for weak stance. Why? It could be a programming error, or it could be the way the formula works.

Weak Hit Advance and Weak Stance only kick in on weak points, which almost all take more than 1x base damage. What doesn't take more than 1x base damage? You guessed it - Micda weak points. They have a 0.1 multiplier on every part but their weak point, which has a 1x multiplier. They also have a .2 multiplier to their head I think, so I want to test if that qualifies for weak hit advance some time later.

In the data files I haven't found anything about a hitbox being flagged as "weak" or not - only its multiplier to the base damage the enemy takes. I'm betting it's just hardcoded to check if something is taking more than 1x damage. If yes it takes extra damage. If no it doesn't. Simple as that.


This is basically what I was saying. x:

UnLucky
Sep 16, 2013, 07:58 PM
Also, in case it wasn't entirely clear, Element Weak Hit doesn't apply to basic weak points. Only elemental ones. EWH won't give you anything simply hitting a WB or glowing red spot if the target is not weak to that element.

I'll test elemental weapons later on. For normal weak points, elemental weakness, WHA, EWH, and WS. Should be easy enough to set up.

P51mus
Sep 17, 2013, 11:59 AM
So, how does element % work for force techs? Just acts as normal extra Tatk? Or does % light on a force weapon add that amount of light damage to all techs?

Coatl
Sep 17, 2013, 12:01 PM
So, how does element % work for force techs?

It doesn't.

P51mus
Sep 17, 2013, 12:11 PM
Well, that's disappointing. Guess I can at least ignore them on my weapons.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Sep 17, 2013, 03:35 PM
Well, that's disappointing. Guess I can at least ignore them on my weapons.

Pretty much, unless you have OCD and want to 50 element all the things, and hit slightly harder when you want PP. It's cheap enough to do on the tech-based pyroxene weapons, and eventually you'll be in the position to not care about the loss of a potential excube or two... or 16...

UnLucky
Sep 21, 2013, 09:59 AM
Alright, so I took two 50 element +10 Red Gunslashes, one Fire and one Lightning, and beat on some lv35 Yedes a bit under different conditions then wrote down my crits. Made sure not to have any element boost PSE, either, since yes that does increase your damage.

Numbers:[SPOILER-BOX]        None  Weakness  WHA  EWH    WS
Fire Slash          638         766   912
Fire -45 Atk        618              884
Lightning Slash        597         597   854
Fire Gun     126   271    420   323   388
Fire -45 Atk    121   260    403          371
Lightning Gun   117   260    404   258   372[/SPOILER-BOX]
-Without any stance active, the difference between the two elements was 41 damage, or ~6.5%.
-45 less Atk (I removed a unit) equates to 20 less damage. This is consistent with the known damage formula (Atk-Def)/5, which would be 9, and multiplied by 2 due to hitting a weakspot.
-This means the difference between the elements is (638-597)*45/20 = 92.25 Atk
-The known elemental weapon attribute formula states that I should receive 623*0.5 = 311.5 bonus elemental Atk from my weapon.
-The difference between the two elements should then be 0.3x the above amount, since Yedes take 130% damage from fire, which would be 93.45 Atk

For the gun portion, I tested "no weakness" by shooting the Yede's arm. For everything else, it was purely headshots. Peculiarly enough, it seems like the elemental damage is not getting the normal headshot bonus. I have maxed WHA but no SS on this Ranger tree. I also tested AB on Gulfs and got 702 crits with Fire -45 Atk, and 698 with Lightning.

EWH definitely does increase Striking and Ranged attacks by the full 120% if the element on the weapon matches the target's weakness. I had wanted to test this since that one patch note sounded too good to be true. Unfortunately, this somehow does not stack with Weak Stance, so you still need to hit actual weakspots.

WS on weakpoints works as expected, everything is 143% stronger. For non-weakpoints, I again used Gulfs:[SPOILER-BOX]        None   WS
Fire Slash     321   287
Fire -45 Atk   309   278
Lightning Slash   300     270[/SPOILER-BOX]And as I mentioned earlier, WS+EWH follows a similar trend. 325 crit with both skills, and 350+ with WS turned off.

Omega-z
Sep 21, 2013, 11:48 AM
@UnLucky - Your thoughts on this with a Wand. EWH doesn't work on WG.....or ...does it still?
How would you go about a pure DPS'ing Melee/Techer?

You have everything on the left side for melee.

Opt.1) going heavy T-atk Up - Now it's not the greatest sounding Opt. But it does give you possibilities like having more base T-atk for higher wands and help's into putting more S-atk in your mag. It does boost WG damage and little bit of tech which works on any foe regardless of element. It gets boosted by Shifta by a little bit also. And it's a cheaper way to go if you don't have a rainbow set.

Opt.2) going the EWH route - We do know it boosts the melee hits and not the WG...unless this has changed. Which now gives the full 1.2% for Melee hits as long you have the right element.


Visual Aid: slot 1 for Opt.1 and slot 2 for Opt.2 at Lv.65

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05fb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbIn 0000000lb000009b000009b00000ib000000jGBdx5dcFdFlbf kbcF0000lb00000f


What I'm trying to figure out is which one would give out better overall DPS. Since Opt.2 should have a better damage output with the right element with it's melee. But would that be enough of a difference in damage to worry compared to Opt.1. Now here's another problem does it give the 1.2%/ 20% to your 50% making it now 70% or Multiplying your overall damage by 1.2% since the change? Because if it's the same as before it won't be a good idea to go that route then but if it's different then it might.

Also Thanks in advance.

Update: added Aid.

AIDA
Sep 21, 2013, 12:27 PM
How about same element? If you use a fire weapon against a fire enemy, do you do the normal weapon's damage, or less?

strikerhunter
Sep 21, 2013, 12:58 PM
How about same element? If you use a fire weapon against a fire enemy, do you do the normal weapon's damage, or less?

You'll still get the damage bonus since there is no enemy element resistance like in PSU.

gigawuts
Sep 21, 2013, 01:08 PM
You'll still get the damage bonus since there is no enemy element resistance like in PSU.

Some enemies do have element resistances, but they tend to be fairly small, and not noted anywhere.

Gilnatch has a 4% (iirc) light resistance, for instance.

UnLucky
Sep 21, 2013, 01:16 PM
Some enemies do take less damage from some elements, mostly obvious things like Kartagot/Micda/Krabs.

Vol Dragon in particular resists every element equally except Ice and Dark. Even the parts that aren't weak to dark should at least be neutral or at least more than most.

Datamined damage mods per enemy per part. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AuOEafhUgifydGptRmZmVDl6ZWl5VU5UYXVudEtVL VE&output=html)

Kondibon
Sep 21, 2013, 01:23 PM
Datamined damage mods per enemy per part. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AuOEafhUgifydGptRmZmVDl6ZWl5VU5UYXVudEtVL VE&output=html)

I was just about to mention this. Thanks.

strikerhunter
Sep 21, 2013, 01:39 PM
Some enemies do have element resistances, but they tend to be fairly small, and not noted anywhere.

Gilnatch has a 4% (iirc) light resistance, for instance.

Never notice that before, but the resistance % doesn't make things matter since it's low as you stated that it's irrelevant to care bout it whereas in PSU the resistance are very noticeable.

UnLucky
Sep 21, 2013, 02:31 PM
@UnLucky - Your thoughts on this with a Wand. EWH doesn't work on WG.....or ...does it still?
How would you go about a pure DPS'ing Melee/Techer?
I don't want to say anything yet, but it looks like I am getting more than the natural elemental weakness that it always got. Still can't JA it though.

Last time I tested EWH, it was with and without learning the skill. Right now, I don't have trees to switch between or a reset to really say for sure.

I believe Baridran is still the best, since you can focus on S-Atk, though the new one gives a lot of T-Atk. But even with EWH providing 120% damage, there's more from Hunter so it's better to focus on the Striking component. Not to mention EWH requires you to have multiple copies of your weapons with varying elements to get the most out of it.

With Wand Reactor and EWH, you have very little room for anything else. Once you're at this point (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?05bnb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ik0lbI n0000000lb000009b000009b00000ib000000jkbdq5dfdFI2H SjkbI20000lb00000f), you could max Territory Burst, Wand Lover, or one Wind Mastery. I wouldn't recommend any of the stat boosts, even though the 25 SP for EWH is harsh, 10 SP for 50 Atk is even worse. Unless, of course, your mag isn't enough to let you equip what you want.

Not really the thread for that, but it'd be great if someone's willing to test EWH with WG.

gigawuts
Sep 21, 2013, 02:33 PM
Never notice that before, but the resistance % doesn't make things matter since it's low as you stated that it's irrelevant to care bout it whereas in PSU the resistance are very noticeable.

It was even more so in PSO1. Enemies would be weak to just 1 of the 3 elements, and very rarely being weak to grants as well (but almost never in a TP efficient manner). You'd be looking at 85% resistances on many enemies, especially by the time you got to ultimate.