Level 16 Technics and PA - A balancing act?

[DigestNeko]

So with this Super Hard update, monsters will drop level 16 discs.
I was looking at how much increase in attack power does level 16 discs give and noticed that some Level 16 PAs and Technics does have significant increase in attack power.

Then i noticed that most of the significant increases are on unpopular PAs and Technics.

I play as a Force so i looked up more about Technics.
Take the below examples for lvl 15 -> lvl 16 increases, most of the ice technics gets huge boosts.
Technics that are not mentioned have linear increases (miniscule)

Barta 279 -> 281 -> 340 (LVL 16)
Gi Barta 385 -> 388 -> 465 (LVL 16)
Ra Barta 296 -> 298 -> 360 (LVL 16)

While less Fire technics gets huge boosts

Foie 283 -> 285 -> 342 (LVL 16)
Gi Foie 299 -> 301 ->361 (LVL 16)

Only one Light technics gained huge boost

Ragrants 425 -> 428 -> 513 (LVL 16)

Its even worse for Bolt, Darkness and Wind technics as none of them gain huge increases.

I looked at Hunter PAs and although i dont really know what is the most useful or popular PAs, i guessed Overend and Sonic Arrow are pretty much in the list.
(And also by looking here http://pso2.jp/players/event/1st_anniversary/report/pa/)

Heres a look at the damage boost:

Overend 1941 -> 1958 -> 1975 (LVL 16)
Sonic Arrow 258 -> 260 (LVL 16)

So its not much of an increase, meanwhile:

Rising Edge 352 -> 355 -> 419 (LVL 16)
Twister Fall 345 -> 348 -> 418 (LVL 16)
Ride Slasher 525 -> 529 -> 794 (LVL 16)

I am not sure how useful these PAs are, but they do gain considerable boost.
The same goes for other classes' PAs.

So i guess this Level 16 discs is a way for Sega to encourage players to use unpopular PAs and Technics?
Especially on the Ice Technics since it sucks big time and most people wont even consider investing in Ice trees.


Edit*:
I realized that the most significant increase is SaZan:
Sazan 303 -> 305 -> 586 (LVL 16)

Ridiculous?
More reasons to break Red Crates now.

[jooozek]

yes, it's a halfassed way of segas balancing, first time it happened was a year ago, when they introduced lv11-14 discs

[TaigaUC]

Se~ ga~

[Lostbob117]

Cruel Throw is a big winner with the increase in power.

[UMVC3_Wolverine]

dayum kinda want an ice tree now :O

[supersonix9]

I should get my hands on Ride Slasher 16...

[Kietsu]

You should see what they did to Sazan.

[isCasted]

Why couldn't they do it to lower-level discs? It's not like balancing against players' will is something bad.

[Sp-24]

"Content".

Find out what we did to your favorite PA... If you can!

[Lostbob117]

Agrajag datamined and uploaded them

http://hiigara.arghargh200.net/pso2/docs/pso2_pa_names.txt Name reference
http://hiigara.arghargh200.net/pso2/docs/pso2_2013_10_09_pa_stats.txt stats

[Sp-24]

Quite nice, I wanted to know what they did to Gizan ever since the update, and news on Sazan only got me more interested.

+64 points, no PP or status effect buff... They are actually trying to make it as worthless as possible, aren't they?

[Ezodagrom]

Agrajag datamined and uploaded them

http://hiigara.arghargh200.net/pso2/docs/pso2_pa_names.txt Name reference
http://hiigara.arghargh200.net/pso2/docs/pso2_2013_10_09_pa_stats.txt stats
Hmm...so that is what changes with Anti and Megiverse as they level up... A stat called "time", so I'm guessing it's charging time?
1 at level 1, 0.25 at level 16.

[gigawuts]

Hmm...so that is what changes with Anti and Megiverse as they level up... A stat called "time", so I'm guessing it's charging time?
1 at level 1, 0.25 at level 16.

Nope, there's definitely no charge noticeable time reduction. I don't know what that stat does.

[MetalDude]

They didn't buff Hien Tsubaki or Asagiri Rendan are you fucking joking.

EDIT: Not a single Bow PA buff either, seriously? It's like they have the right idea 50% of the time (buffing nearly every underused HU and FI PA AND reducing the PP costs of nearly all of them) and then there's this shit.

[Lostbob117]

They didn't buff Hien Tsubaki or Asagiri Rendan are you fucking joking.

EDIT: Not a single Bow PA buff either, seriously? It's like they have the right idea 50% of the time (buffing nearly every underused HU and FI PA AND reducing the PP costs of nearly all of them) and then there's this shit.

Why does Hien Tsubaki need a buff?

[Z-0]

Nope, there's definitely no charge noticeable time reduction. I don't know what that stat does.
It does actually change charge time: Look at stats on Sabarta, Light Techs, etc.

But for Megiverse / Anti / Zanverse, it doesn't seem to do anything.

@Lostbob: Because Hien is seriously a waste of time.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

*Looks at Cruel Throw*

That's the kinda of boost you should be giving to all Katana PAs, SEGA

[MetalDude]

Hien is really mediocre damage-wise and as far as consistently hitting a target goes. Sakura doesn't reach as far but hits in a wider sweep more reliably and for significantly more damage, outclassing it in almost every way.

[UnLucky]

I like how every single gunslash PA got a buff except AB.

I mean it would be retarded if it did get one, but why Aiming Shot and Thrillsplosion? Only the mainly Striking ones needed a boost. You know, the shitty PAs no one uses.

[gigawuts]

It does actually change charge time: Look at stats on Sabarta, Light Techs, etc.

But for Megiverse / Anti / Zanverse, it doesn't seem to do anything.

@Lostbob: Because Hien is seriously a waste of time.

Yeah, on those techs sure, but there's no noticeable charge time reduction (seriously, 1 to .25? charging in less than half the time of a fire tech? I'm not seeing that at all) on anti and megiverse.

edit: Hien's problem is over-extension. It goes past a target in front of you, but won't hit a target at its max distance at the start of the PA. Its use is pretty much limited to wailing on all of a banther's legs at once and hitting a falz arm's core.

[Sp-24]

I like how every single gunslash PA got a buff except AB.

I mean it would be retarded if it did get one, but why Aiming Shot and Thrillsplosion? Only the mainly Striking ones needed a boost. You know, the shitty PAs no one uses.
Didn't Aiming Shot need a buff? Sure, it wasn't garbage like most of the rest, but it wasn't exactly powerful, either.

[BlueCast Boy]

Shoot Polka lv16 with fury stance and brave stance active with 480 S-ATK Oboro Dagger
4000x2 on weak from a infected Zu Oodan. so i guess this same goes for Raging Walts.

[gigawuts]

Didn't Aiming Shot need a buff? Sure, it wasn't garbage like most of the rest, but it wasn't exactly powerful, either.

Aiming Shot already topped out over sneak shooter in terms of damage, rate of fire, and projectile speed (I'm pretty sure on this, but not 100%).

People have already been applying a WB and swapping to gunslash for 3x aiming shot for a little while now. It really didn't need this buff, about as much as foie didn't.

Ice's problems don't lie in its damage, either. But hey.

[UnLucky]

Aiming Shot and Thrillsplosion already did more damage than AB on a single target, now they're going to be crazy.


Also a good joke is that Sabarta didn't get a buff. And no, it wasn't fixed to hit more times or anything of the sort.

[Kietsu]

So I wrote up this big analysis of Ranger PAs and then my login timed out and the forums ate the post.

So I'll just skip to the most important bit: Impact Slider jesus christ.

[Enforcer MKV]

Agrajag datamined and uploaded them

http://hiigara.arghargh200.net/pso2/docs/pso2_pa_names.txt Name reference
http://hiigara.arghargh200.net/pso2/docs/pso2_2013_10_09_pa_stats.txt stats

Serious question - why not, instead of making a second file with all the names, you just put the corresponding PA names in parenthesis next to the "PA0x." The listing is nice, don't get me wrong. I'm just wondering why it's split into two documents when it doesn't really need to be.

[UnLucky]

So I wrote up this big analysis of Ranger PAs and then my login timed out and the forums ate the post.

So I'll just skip to the most important bit: Impact Slider jesus christ.

Can't hit Back, or did it blank it all out?

[Kietsu]

Can't hit Back, or did it blank it all out?

I wrote it in Quick Reply like a scrub, so it was gone when I hit back. T_T

[Enforcer MKV]

I wrote it in Quick Reply like a scrub, so it was gone when I hit back. T_T

Yeah, never use quick reply. Good rule of thumb.

[MetalDude]

Shoot Polka lv16 with fury stance and brave stance active with 480 S-ATK Oboro Dagger
4000x2 on weak from a infected Zu Oodan. so i guess this same goes for Raging Walts.

The most important part of the Raging Waltz buff is the PP reduction from 30 to 20. It still doesn't make T.Daggers aerial mobility any less terrible, but it's appreciated at least.

Also, Diffusion Shell + that rifle with the ZRA potential on GU = What. I want to see the numbers on that.

[gigawuts]

The most important part of the Raging Waltz buff is the PP reduction from 30 to 20.

I swear sega reads my posts and listens to me. Every update like half of what I rant about needing to be changed gets added. This is creeping me out.

Time to rant about nothing but the rng.

[Kietsu]

It still doesn't make T.Daggers aerial mobility any less terrible

Am I allowed to ask which weapon has better aerial mobility than the T.Daggers?

Edit:


I swear sega reads my posts and listens to me. Every update like half of what I rant about needing to be changed gets added. This is creeping me out.

Time to rant about nothing but the rng.

Can you start ranting about Techers again? We're still kind of eternally suboptimal. And I really want Blink Attack.

[BlueCast Boy]

I was hoping the PA on sword were boosted up aside spamming alot of Over Ends...I want to see twister fall and ride cluster damage output heavily increased.

[Sp-24]

Am I allowed to ask which weapon has better aerial mobility than the T.Daggers?
Machineguns, I guess? Though I never understood the appeal of aerial combat in PSO2 at all, unless it's certain PAs that are better in the air than on the ground, in which case a hop is enough, or the weapon's entire gimmick, which feels more tacked on than anything anyway.

[Kietsu]

Machineguns, I guess? Though I never understood the appeal of aerial combat in PSO2 at all, unless it's certain PAs that are better in the air than on the ground, in which case a hop is enough, or the weapon's entire gimmick, which feels more tacked on than anything anyway.

Oh yeah, Machineguns.

Well the appeal with T-Daggers is that against several bosses, you can just wail on their weak point while staying above all of their attacks. Plus it's just fun.

This obviously doesn't apply to Machineguns because Elder Rebellion has huge range.

[supersonix9]

they should give cluster bullet a huge boost

[Cyron Tanryoku]

Infinity Fire needs a 300 boost

[BlueCast Boy]

they should give cluster bullet a huge boost

So its more damaging than Heaven Shot?

[Lostbob117]

Serious question - why not, instead of making a second file with all the names, you just put the corresponding PA names in parenthesis next to the "PA0x." The listing is nice, don't get me wrong. I'm just wondering why it's split into two documents when it doesn't really need to be.

Well, Agrajag made these. He was just linking me them to look at since I asked for him to upload the stats since he datamined them. So I guess effort is the reason they are like this.

[Terrence]

Haters still gonna hate. That's miserable like a fight againt DF 65 with useless and weak morons trying to show they have big balls but dying 30+ times ! -_-'

Well, seeing SEGA has boosted Ice Technics, I'm glad I used one of my Skill Trees to specialize in Ice Element (yes, I'm mad LOL). But was the great effect of SaBarta to halt mobs during its cast here before the last update ?

[Zyrusticae]

It amuses me how EVERY SINGLE RANGER PA except for a small handful (Cluster Bullet, Rodeo Drive, Fake Silhouette, Homing Emission) get a pretty big buff. Even Sneak Shooter gets a buff! This is like a tacit admission that "yeah, ranger pretty much sucked"... Which is true, considering, y'know, ranger players only spammed a scant handful of PAs all the time anyway.

And Weak Bullet, obviously.

Now if only these changes were retroactive... and they would do something similar to the skill trees...

[Kietsu]

Well to be fair, they already gave Homing a big buff once. Much more than that and it'd just be a multitargeting Sneak.

So Many Edits Today: But yeah, most Ranger PAs have been seriously on the weak side. This hopefully helps a bunch.

[Zyrusticae]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I KNOW why they skipped those specific PAs (they're the ones people used the most). It's likely that they used the usage metrics they gathered to determine which ones to buff, which was pretty much everything except the ones that are used over 20% of the time. Hopefully the usage is spread more evenly now... once everyone gets level 16 discs of everything, anyway.

[UnLucky]

But was the great effect of SaBarta to halt mobs during its cast here before the last update ?

It was always there. Doesn't work on mobs with super armor, so pretty much any large enemy.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

Unlikely Zyr
Even if they buffed those other moves, their use is still pretty meh in comparison to the spammed ones

Even with all those rifle PA buffs, Launcher is still the better weapon to choose from, so people are most likely going to just sticking with Homing Emission weak bullets

And out of the Launcher PA boosts, the only one I can really see being used is Divine Launcher, maybe Flame Bullet for TAs

[Zenobia]

I swear sega reads my posts and listens to me. Every update like half of what I rant about needing to be changed gets added. This is creeping me out.

Time to rant about nothing but the rng.

Keep going Giga!

[Z-0]

As Ranger I used like 9 or 10 PAs because they were all useful so the notion that only a very small selection of PAs were useful is incorrect. :/ People just aren't very good at this game and think only a few things are worth using.

[UnLucky]

two or three rifle PAs, two or three launcher PAs, and two or three gunslash PAs.

that leaves a lot of crappy ones that also happened to get a buff at lv16

[Z-0]

5 Rifle PAs were good (Sneak Shooter (although this is arguable really), Homing Emission (DPS), Parallel Slider (movement around certain bosses such as Quartz), Impact Slider (situational uses, such as breaking rocks / gwana / approaching Ragne in Nab2 to name a few) and Diffuse Shell (utter destruction up close)).

4 Launcher PAs were good (Divine Launcher (long range), Cluster bullet (mid-range; upper weakspot), Rodeo Drive (Close Range / Huge DPS from mid), Crazy Smash (JA increase))

3 Gunslash PAs (Additional Bullet (duh), Thrillsplosion (large DPS), Aiming Shot (better DPS than Sneak Shooter when you were finished with your bullets)).

Ranger is easily the most varied class, that actually uses different attacks because they're useful and not just to be different. You can use Ranger by just spamming one or two attacks, but you will never be at your most optimal if you do that. The buffs to some PAs were really uncalled for and just make Ranger more OP if you're good at using them.

[Kietsu]

I'll be honest, I'd have loved it if they reduced the startup time on Parallel so you could use it in lieu of that awful dodge roll. Then you could run some sort of cool close-range Impact Slider / Parallel Slider / Diffuse Shot setup.

[pkemr4]

Infinity Fire needs a 300 boost

This.

[gigawuts]

I also agree that GU is underpowered.

I need to get around to trying the 900+ power orchestra, because I was actually content with it as it was and going from 550 to 900 is just LOL IRL.

[MetalDude]

I want Illusion Rave. The idea of a very long and powerful single-target PA sounds cool in theory but has been done horribly almost every time (ie. this and Asagiri). The power boost might put it ahead of DA when it comes to long term damage although the length certainly limits its versatility.

[UnLucky]

5 Rifle PAs were good (Sneak Shooter (although this is arguable really), Homing Emission (DPS), Parallel Slider (movement around certain bosses such as Quartz), Impact Slider (situational uses, such as breaking rocks / gwana / approaching Ragne in Nab2 to name a few) and Diffuse Shell (utter destruction up close)).

4 Launcher PAs were good (Divine Launcher (long range), Cluster bullet (mid-range; upper weakspot), Rodeo Drive (Close Range / Huge DPS from mid), Crazy Smash (JA increase))

3 Gunslash PAs (Additional Bullet (duh), Thrillsplosion (large DPS), Aiming Shot (better DPS than Sneak Shooter when you were finished with your bullets)).

Ranger is easily the most varied class, that actually uses different attacks because they're useful and not just to be different. You can use Ranger by just spamming one or two attacks, but you will never be at your most optimal if you do that. The buffs to some PAs were really uncalled for and just make Ranger more OP if you're good at using them.
Well I use One Point for rocks and switches, but yeah. Though I'd never use any mobility PAs with a rifle since I'd have WBs loaded and PP is scarce without PB.

I never understood the whole Crazy Smash thing. It doesn't seem any faster to me, and it costs 25 PP. Plus it won't hit anything unlike a regular shot (which is actually good on the launcher). I suppose it can help in a TA when you need 100ms to hit a spawn perfectly with one PA, but I never found a use for it in randomly generated content.

[Exiled_Gundam]

Well I use One Point for rocks and switches, but yeah. Though I'd never use any mobility PAs with a rifle since I'd have WBs loaded and PP is scarce without PB.

I never understood the whole Crazy Smash thing. It doesn't seem any faster to me, and it costs 25 PP. Plus it won't hit anything unlike a regular shot (which is actually good on the launcher). I suppose it can help in a TA when you need 100ms to hit a spawn perfectly with one PA, but I never found a use for it in randomly generated content.
Good for knocking down several kind of mobs (Cycloneda, Kukloneda, Krabada,Luda Sorcerer and Dingales). Also useful for fast JA (it's faster than regular shot)

[Zyrusticae]

Divine Launcher has been 'meh' ever since Assault Buster and Slide End arrived on the scene (it can't keep up with the damage OR the AoE of either, though with the buff it might actually be competitive now). I wasn't aware that anyone actually used the mobility PAs with the rifle, and I sure don't feel like Diffuse Shell is anything to write home about considering how short its range is and how low its damage is relative to the big AoE attacks.

I'd like to see a video of someone abusing the hell out of these. That would be interesting.

Mind you, I am neither geared to the teeth nor maxed out in levels nor using hunter as sub for ranger, so I don't know how these things change when you're super-mega-OP stats-wise. But playing as a Ra/Gu I can tell you right now that I DESPISE playing as ranger and you can't make me play it damnit you'd have to pay me to play ranger it's just so horribly fucking dull, good lord why does this class even EXIST?! *ahem*

[TaigaUC]

Earlier I was trying to sleep, and I started thinking about how when SEGA broadcasts their employees playing PSO2, they don't seem to be very good players... and I wonder if some of them are the same people making decisions on and playtesting PSO2's balance.

I wouldn't be surprised if SEGA relies entirely on statistics of how often players use each thing, and then make adjustments based solely on that information.
It'd explain a lot about how they focus on tweaking damage and don't seem to be well-versed on the finer mechanics of the game.


I swear sega reads my posts and listens to me.

I'm under the impression that many people complain about the exact same issues.
They're that blatantly obvious. Which says something in itself, I think.


I need to get around to trying the 900+ power orchestra, because I was actually content with it as it was and going from 550 to 900 is just LOL IRL.

I bet that was their attempt at weaning people off Bloody Saraband.
They probably designed Bloody Saraband as a frontal AOE attack and wanted people to use Orchesta against single target bosses.


So, uh... to be more on topic... how is ice now? Is it still just "not terrible" or is it "the best"?

[UnLucky]

Gibarta is still the best ice tech, though Rabarta is better off of a talis. The SP requirements are lighter now so it's viable to get the good skills while ignoring Photon Flare almost entirely.

But there's still not much reason to use ice over another element. Freeze Keep is pretty close to a worthwhile modifier like what fire/lightning get, but it's not going to help your damage any. That won't change enemy weaknesses, though, and no Darkers are weak to it.

I mean, it's not a total joke anymore since you can get almost as much damage out of the tree as a pure fire/lightning build. It could be an option if you really want to stunlock SH mobs or something.

[TaigaUC]

Thanks for the summary.
Always good info from your posts, thanks.

[BlueCast Boy]

I want Illusion Rave. The idea of a very long and powerful single-target PA sounds cool in theory but has been done horribly almost every time (ie. this and Asagiri). The power boost might put it ahead of DA when it comes to long term damage although the length certainly limits its versatility.

Illusion Rave lv16 got huge boost with 712 S-ATK 550 DMG per hit.

[Terrence]

But there's still not much reason to use ice over another element. I mean, it's not a total joke anymore since you can get almost as much damage out of the tree as a pure fire/lightning build. It could be an option if you really want to stunlock SH mobs or something.
Indeed. With 4 FOrce Skill Trees, the new Ice Tech boost and SP requirement changes, I decided to try... And it's finally viable. Now, in SH with those super fast mobs, dealing good Ice damage while freezing them very often with hard to break coffins is what we can call SUPPORT ! (Happy SEGA put the new '+120 T-ATK for 5 SP' Skill in the Ice part of the Tree, by the way...)

[Alenoir]

I sure don't feel like Diffuse Shell is anything to write home about considering how short its range is and how low its damage is relative to the big AoE attacks.
Did some run on Ra/Hu 60/60 after picking up a Lv16. It gave me about 11k with a Foia Rain, headshot, no Standing Snipe bonus applied (was in air), SH forest monsters. With WB it managed to hit about 40k.

You can probably one/two shot quite a few things in SH using that with a better rifle on someone that's not a newearl.

[Rakurai]

Crazy Smash would be a lot better if not for the fact that its second hit only works on enemies that get knocked back by the first one.

People might actually use it for more then getting a JA out faster if the damage was condensed into a single hit.

[Coatl]

Gibarta is still the best ice tech, though Rabarta is better off of a talis. The SP requirements are lighter now so it's viable to get the good skills while ignoring Photon Flare almost entirely.

But there's still not much reason to use ice over another element. Freeze Keep is pretty close to a worthwhile modifier like what fire/lightning get, but it's not going to help your damage any. That won't change enemy weaknesses, though, and no Darkers are weak to it.

I mean, it's not a total joke anymore since you can get almost as much damage out of the tree as a pure fire/lightning build. It could be an option if you really want to stunlock SH mobs or something.


This reminds me, has any FO used nafoie in SH on a mob that is not weak to fire? If so I'd like to see the damage reduction from the enemy elemental resistances. I feel like Sega made a mistake making the seabed monsters in the new area be weak to both fire AND ice. We already know which one of the two most people will side with. :/

[UnLucky]

Well I was doing like 5k Zondes in SH Forest, so I don't think they're all that resistant.


edit: Yeah, just did like 9k to a robot, 10k to a monkey with Nafoie. I don't think they have any elemental resistance.

[Enforcer MKV]

I sure don't feel like Diffuse Shell is anything to write home about considering how short its range is and how low its damage is relative to the big AoE attacks.


I dunno, I use One point, Sneak Shooter, and Diffuse shell, and I definitely appreciate the proverbial brick wall you can throw up for a few seconds with Diffuse (Shotgun blast; stuns enemies, often makes them fall over for a second depending on mob) ooooof course, I pretty much throw all conventional notions of what's considered good into a dumpster and laugh while doing it, so yeah - I'm a little strange in what I do. Then again, RA has never really been about flat out damage to me, not with the way I play.

Has far as I'm concerned - RA isn't nearly as flashy as the other classes can be, and I'm rather happy with that fact. There aren't a lot of big animations to deal with, a lot are simple and to the point. If it's really that irksome of a class to you...just don't play it. It doesn't really sound like your thing anyway, frankly.

The class isn't perfect, but none of the classes are. It has it's strengths and it's weaknesses.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

So it's seriously unlikely the more popular rare hunter PAs are getting touched like guilty break, sacred skewer, wild round, huh?

Edit: feel like their balancing team really doesn't look beyond the usage amount of PAs. No noticeable damage buffs to kanran kikyou or sakura end. Just everything else -_-.

Welp, katana's best single target dps PA combo is shaping up to be tsukimi->gekka. They're nice, fast, tsukimi is useable in the air if that's where you find yourself because of katana combat... I guess that isn't so bad since kanran is still... kanran. Sakura end could still have its moments... if enemies line up nicely.

Maybe pure katana spec braver won't be so... lacking since they put more damage on the faster PAs instead of sakura end. I guess I don't mind. Though the total lack of love for kanran is irksome.

Might even reconsider playing braver again...

Nothing on level 16 asagari or hein tsubaki yet from the JP wikia though.

[Ezodagrom]

So it's seriously unlikely the more popular rare hunter PAs are getting touched like guilty break, sacred skewer, wild round, huh?

Edit: feel like their balancing team really doesn't look beyond the usage amount of PAs. No noticeable damage buffs to kanran kikyou or sakura end. Just everything else -_-.

Welp, katana's best single target dps PA combo is shaping up to be tsukimi->gekka. They're nice, fast, tsukimi is useable in the air if that's where you find yourself because of katana combat... I guess that isn't so bad since kanran is still... kanran. Sakura end could still have its moments... if enemies line up nicely.

Maybe pure katana spec braver won't be so... lacking since they put more damage on the faster PAs instead of sakura end. I guess I don't mind. Though the total lack of love for kanran is irksome.

Might even reconsider playing braver again...

Nothing on level 16 asagari or hein tsubaki yet from the JP wikia though.
There's the document in the first page.
http://hiigara.arghargh200.net/pso2/docs/pso2_pa_names.txt
http://hiigara.arghargh200.net/pso2/docs/pso2_2013_10_09_pa_stats.txt

Hien: 264 -> 265
Asagiri: 301 -> 303

[Z-0]

I feel like Sega made a mistake making the seabed monsters in the new area be weak to both fire AND ice. We already know which one of the two most people will side with. :/
When I watched a Seabed video, the enemies were weak to only Ice.

[UnLucky]

The first video I saw was really blurry, but I could make out a little red icon next to ice.

I laughed pretty hard that day.

"Finally, finally I can be useful somewh-" NOPE

[Terrence]

I don't think so... It appears it's ICE ONLY.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAGpzhkH-Ek

[gigawuts]

HAHAHA

Anyway braver feels a bit more balanced now. Combat Escape really helped the class in more ways than I expected (especially since it's 5 sp for the full 20 seconds, and we now have that same amount of extra sp from the increased level cap).

Tsukimi, the lifting slash katana PA, gained quite a bit of damage. It now hits about as hard as a single sakura end swipe. This is good because it's so darn fast, except for the fact that it still needs 30 PP. It really should've been brought down to 28 at maximum, but preferably around 24.

[UnLucky]

Ah, that's a much clearer video than the one I saw. Guess it was just that hydra thing with each head weak to a different element.

Oh well, guess I'll make use of lv16 Foie's buff as Fo/Fi then, especially since SH mobs take 100% damage from non-weak elements. Unless they changed that for Seabed.

[Terrence]

Fire is better than Ice in many situations indeed. The boost of Foie is great too. But I'll keep using Ice which will give me an advantage on Seabed. To tell the truth, I enjoy using this element even more now that I can do around 25.000 damage to all frozen mobs in Forest SH with Freeze Ignition. Barta/GiBarta are my main Techs (glad they were boosted too) but I'm sad for NaBarta which had a great potential... =/

[Zyrusticae]

Did some run on Ra/Hu 60/60 after picking up a Lv16. It gave me about 11k with a Foia Rain, headshot, no Standing Snipe bonus applied (was in air), SH forest monsters. With WB it managed to hit about 40k.

You can probably one/two shot quite a few things in SH using that with a better rifle on someone that's not a newearl.
Gawd, that shit pisses me off. The strongest sub for Ranger should be GUNNER not fucking HUNTER. Goddamn SEGA and their useless-ass piece of shit garbage skill trees!

Sorry, needed to get that out of my system.


I dunno, I use One point, Sneak Shooter, and Diffuse shell, and I definitely appreciate the proverbial brick wall you can throw up for a few seconds with Diffuse (Shotgun blast; stuns enemies, often makes them fall over for a second depending on mob) ooooof course, I pretty much throw all conventional notions of what's considered good into a dumpster and laugh while doing it, so yeah - I'm a little strange in what I do. Then again, RA has never really been about flat out damage to me, not with the way I play.

Has far as I'm concerned - RA isn't nearly as flashy as the other classes can be, and I'm rather happy with that fact. There aren't a lot of big animations to deal with, a lot are simple and to the point. If it's really that irksome of a class to you...just don't play it. It doesn't really sound like your thing anyway, frankly.

The class isn't perfect, but none of the classes are. It has it's strengths and it's weaknesses.
Yeah, no, obviously it just isn't for me. Especially since I am dead set on making my characters all PURE (ZERO investment in anything other than their primary attribute, that is, S-Atk, R-Atk, and T-Atk), which bites me in the ass more often than I'd like.

[Terrence]

Gawd, that shit pisses me off. The strongest sub for Ranger should be GUNNER not fucking HUNTER. Goddamn SEGA and their useless-ass piece of shit garbage skill trees!
You can't blame SEGA because they tried to make hybrid Classes viable.

[Kietsu]

You can't blame SEGA because they tried to make hybrid Classes viable.

There's 'hybrid classes are viable', and then there's 'Hunter is the best sub unless you're a Force.'

But hey, we can blame SEGA for never getting things right, right?

[gigawuts]

You can't blame SEGA because they tried to make hybrid Classes viable.

Ha ha no, the only way hybrid classes would be viable is if both damage types involved benefited from multipliers on both classes

not just one for one, and both for the other

[Rakurai]

To tell the truth, I enjoy using this element even more now that I can do around 25.000 damage to all frozen mobs in Forest SH with Freeze Ignition.

Freeze Ignition is actually halfway decent?

Now I kind of wish I invested some points in it...

[gigawuts]

All, as in multiple? At a distance?

[Terrence]

Gigawuts and his eternal bad mood... =) YES, every 60 seconds I can heavily strike (x4) all frozen mobs nearby (happens often) at a good distance (FI Boost). That do not stand in for Tech damage, that's only a cool bonus.

[Macman]

I dunno, I use One point, Sneak Shooter, and Diffuse shell, and I definitely appreciate the proverbial brick wall you can throw up for a few seconds with Diffuse (Shotgun blast; stuns enemies, often makes them fall over for a second depending on mob)
Hi5!
I'm dying to get my hands on Diffuse Shell and Sneak Shoot 16.

[zSW1FT]

There's 'hybrid classes are viable', and then there's 'Hunter is the best sub unless you're a Force.'

But hey, we can blame SEGA for never getting things right, right?

Actually, Fo/Hu is probably better in many situations than Fo/Te or Fo/*anything lol..
Fo/Te just allows for more pp regen, territory burst and pp convert to spam na foie. HU has the DAMAGE.

[Dnd]

I need to get around to trying the 900+ power orchestra, because I was actually content with it as it was and going from 550 to 900 is just LOL IRL.

I honestly cannot believe that power jump either, as it stands its already more (base) power at lv15 then bloody sarabande at 16 (602 vs 592). I cannot wait to get my hands on it... the damage is going to be stupidly high from it and as a user of that PA religiously with a blade dance for months, I cant wait...
(I'm 99% sure I could kill a lv65 ragne sub 90 seconds with no damage taken with it)

[Bellion]

What? No. Hu only increases tech damage by 20% with Fury Stance Combo Up. Nothing else on the Hu tree would benefit tech damage.

Fo/Hu is the weakest in terms of damage. And you'd better not say to use striking weapons as that class combination.

@2 posts above.

[UnLucky]

Fo/Hu does as much damage as Fo/Te... 20% more than Force alone. Only difference is Hunter needs a JA, Techer needs to target elemental weakness. So in a sense, you could say it's stronger on average than Techer (ignoring base T-Atk differences).

Fighter and Braver give more tech damage than Hunter.

[gigawuts]

That and ignoring the nearly infinite pp for 30 seconds at a time.

I'm genuinely curious how things would be if shifta advance was a 20% multiplier to damage when your shifta is applied...

[Kietsu]

That and ignoring the nearly infinite pp for 30 seconds at a time.

I'm genuinely curious how things would be if shifta advance was a 20% multiplier to damage when your shifta is applied...

If that were the case, and it plus Wind Mastery applied to zanverse, Techer would finally actually be the support type it's supposed to be.

[zSW1FT]

Still fairly certain that 20% more damage compounded with weak bullet + namegid on something is $$$$$ ~

[jooozek]

since when does hunter get weak bullet?

[Kamekur]

Still fairly certain that 20% more damage compounded with weak bullet + namegid on something is $$$$$ ~

Techer has dark mastery (20 x 20 x 20 [remove that last 20 if target isn't weak to dark], which is either 144% or 172.8%)

Braver has weak stance (30 x 10 x 10 = 157.3%) or average stance (10 x 10 x 10 = 133.1%)

Fighter has brave stance (20 x 20 = 144%) or wise stance (30 x 30 = 169%)

Hunter has Fury combo up (120%)


FoTe does the most damage with namegid. There, I threw some common sense. Now, let's please get back on topic.

[MetalDude]

Does anyone feel like they intentionally nerfed the drop frequency for discs in general (outside of bosses at least thank god)? I could play for a few hours and never find a single 16. It's really a bit arduous.

[ShinMaruku]

Does anyone feel like they intentionally nerfed the drop frequency for discs in general (outside of bosses at least thank god)? I could play for a few hours and never find a single 16. It's really a bit arduous.

First run I did at SH and a level 16 disc dropped. http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/noah.png

[TaigaUC]

I wish Fighters would get a stance called "Logical Stance" where they gain decent performance without losing 95% of their damage whenever the enemy turns or part of the enemy's body rotates, or the fighter's attacks swerve in random bizarre correctional motion causing their hitbox to count as the opposite direction and wasting all their time trying to get into position just for the entire cycle to repeat itself.


Does anyone feel like they intentionally nerfed the drop frequency for discs in general (outside of bosses at least thank god)? I could play for a few hours and never find a single 16. It's really a bit arduous.

I've barely seen any useful 16s. It's always the same one or two discs over and over, on all of my accounts and characters.

I think they nerfed SH Elder drops. Seems like less crystals and less chance of trash rares.

[Kietsu]

I wish Fighters would get a stance called "Logical Stance" where they gain decent performance without losing 95% of their damage whenever the enemy turns or part of the enemy's body rotates, or the fighter's attacks swerve in random bizarre correctional motion causing their hitbox to count as the opposite direction.



I've barely seen any useful 16s. It's always the same one or two discs over and over, on all of my accounts and characters.

I think they nerfed SH Elder drops. Seems like less crystals and less chance of trash rares.

But Braver got that. It's called Average Stance.
Off topic here, but I just made this (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06qDbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lbHnGBboqs5bINGDfrA0000Ib000000lb000008kbj GAGAJf2fgAEAqs0000lb0000000Ib000008) and I feel awful for doing it.

Edit: You should try using the Fighter stances with a wire lance. What a nightmare.

[gigawuts]

Fighter's stances really highlight the flaws with the approach Sega's taking with the skilltree system. Unique skills for every single class? Pigeonholing fighter into having to stance dance is a really poor decision. Yeah, those stances are balanced as supplements for other classes to have on top of their own existing damage, but they're terrible when they're the class's main avenue for damage. Having to sub another class to get any measurable consistent damage gains is terrible, especially when you're forced to sub one specific class: Hunter.

[Kietsu]

If the stances were instant change with no cooldown, I think they'd actually be pretty interesting to use.
I think the biggest problem with subclasses is how many of the skills are damage-type or weapon specific - Gunner is the biggest offender here. Can you imagine if you could use Showtime to build Wire Lance Gear at double speed? Not the most ideal build, but I'd love to have more interesting options like that.

Honestly, the only class Sega got right for subclass purposes is Braver.

[gigawuts]

This whole +35% damage for a level 16 PA isn't coming close to the way they should actually be addressing the class issues. Direct damage will not balance some moves. It will either keep them underpowered or make them overpowered - there's no in between for something like scissor edge. Skilltree shortcomings are either nonexistent or too severe, especially when placed next to other classes.

What fighter needs is a new skill to turn the penalty into half the bonus of the stance, but only for striking. Make it 5 sp, or 10 sp, or just make the stances innately behave that way (i.e. instead of brave stance = 20% front & -15% back, do brave stance = 20% front & 20% back then keep brave stance up = 20% front & nothing for back)

Then nerf hunter's skills (and boost all striking weapon damage mods to compensate, so subbing hunter is unchanged but other classes become viable options), change average stance charge into average stance up 2, and make gunner's zero range advance apply to striking 100% of the time regardless of range. It doesn't get any more zero range than striking something. Aerial advance should provide a tiny amount of bonus lift to every normal hit (just for daggers, so they can keep things airborne more consistently). I could go on but this isn't the thread for that.

[Chdata]

Haha. So leveling zanverse changes the cast speed.

[gigawuts]

It says it, but like megiverse and anti that stat does not impact cast speed. Not to the face value, anyway.

[Kondibon]

and make gunner's zero range advance apply to striking 100% of the time regardless of range. It doesn't get any more zero range than striking something.I see people say this a lot but I'm pretty sure zero range advance is running off the premise of SHOOTING something at point blank. Asking for it to work with striking attacks makes as much sense as wanting tech charge advanced to work with sword and bow PAs.

Besides, That would end up making it BETTER for melee than guns because they'd always get the bonus while with guns you have do the opposite of what guns are supposed to do and fight in melee. :wacko:

I agree with Kietsu though that weapon based skills should have use outside of that weapon but that sounds more annoying to balance. Showtime+katana gear=???

And instead of adding a skill to take away the whole point of wise and brave stance, why not add a skill or innate ability that makes it easier to change one's positioning quickly. That would go well with fighters weapons and general intended play style, particularly knuckles and daggers.

I think the biggest problem is that the things that DO have good synergy just aren't all that great in the game's meta unless hunter is somewhere in the equation (with the exception of force I guess). There's just too much of an emphasis on more damage and not enough on things like support, control and sustainability. I don't think anything could be done without redoing the class balance entirely from scratch.

I mean, I came up with a highly pp efficient support ranger/techer build. But who cares when people can roflstomp SH bosses in under 5 minutes. Not to mention all the skills that are good on paper and might actually benefit someone subbing the class but suck due to weird limitations or high SP costs (Traps, extend assist, and the right side of the hunter tree, I'm looking at you) :I

I started rambling there, but basically I think the whole system needs to be redone to make more of the other skills accessible and usable rather than trying to make all the damage boosts universal.

[Chdata]

what I don't understand is why Fighter isn't the one with 'katana combat' for twin daggers.

[Emp]

So anyone find Shifta lvl 16?

[Chdata]

By the way, can you freeze ignition VS Vol Dragon?

[Emp]

By the way, can you freeze ignition VS Vol Dragon?

Iirc, its a palette activated skill like stance that increases the proct rate for freeze? If so, of course.

[Kondibon]

what I don't understand is why Fighter isn't the one with 'katana combat' for twin daggers.

When I first played braver my main thought was "Katanas play exactly like I wanted Daggers to" The actual system of katana combat makes more sense for katanas in my opinion but I don't see why we can't get more mobility stuff. Something like a "Step Up" skill (pun intended). Increases the distance of your steps or something. Or air step. Or a dive roll plus skill that lets you do a second dive roll right after the first, possibly landing you on your feet faster or something.


Iirc, its a palette activated skill like stance that increases the proct rate for freeze? If so, of course.That's not what it is at all. It causes frozen enemies to explode, doing a ton of damage to them. No it doesn't work on Vol because his freeze effect doesn't count as a normal status effect.

[Chdata]

I thought freeze ignition detonates frozen enemies, not something that increases freeze rate. The question is whether or not Vol's form of being frozen has anything to do with that.


Also what I was thinking: Those step advances that increase your invincibility frames? Make them also reduce the time between dashes so at level 10, you can basically dash repeatedly as if you were triple dashing, but without the crazy button pressing.

[Emp]

I thought freeze ignition detonates frozen enemies, not something that increases freeze rate. The question is whether or not Vol's form of being frozen has anything to do with that.


Also what I was thinking: Those step advances that increase your invincibility frames? Make them also reduce the time between dashes so at level 10, you can basically dash repeatedly as if you were triple dashing, but without the crazy button pressing.

Oh my bad that was freeze boost I had in mind. But ya it should boost ur dmg if Vol is frozen. Havent tested it tho

[gigawuts]

Freeze ignition does not work on vol.

[Zenobia]

Freeze ignition does not work on vol.

^This Vol has to be frozen solid NOT IN PLACE for it to work lol.


what I don't understand is why Fighter isn't the one with 'katana combat' for twin daggers.

Because twin daggers aren't Katana's and FI dosen't need any more buffs.

Like srsly really FI katana Combat? Are you trying to make FI IMBA?

[MetalDude]

No, it's just that Twin Dagger's capabilities in the air are shit and would benefit really nicely from that.

[Zenobia]

No, it's just that Twin Dagger's capabilities in the air are shit and would benefit really nicely from that.

Raging waltz and w/e PA you wanna do from their.

I blame ppl who don't use all the PA's to actually hit things in the air.

[MetalDude]

T. Daggers in the air are great on bosses that decide to move very little. De Malmoth is a major prey to this. Anything else that constantly moves? It's total shit and they have no way of adjusting on the fly. RW is not fast enough and very limited in its actual scope of closing distance.

[Kietsu]

For those unsure:

Freeze Ignition hits every frozen enemy in a small radius around you, removing the debuff but causing mini-namegid damage. The problems it had in the past were the godawful range and the fact that freeze was usually broken before you could even react, but Ignition Boost and Freeze Keep honestly make it pretty viable - except for the fact that you have to invest completely into ice spells.

Still, like all other status effects, freeze doesn't work on major boss battles - even on Vol it doesn't count, just like when you electrocute Falz, he's not actually counted as being Shocked, so it's mostly just for instant killing mobs any time you get a freeze proc.

[Kondibon]

RW is not fast enough and very limited in its actual scope of closing distance.

Pretty much this. It can work but since it takes so long and has such a short range, not to mention sending you flying into the ground if you're too far, it's really finicky to use against enemies that movie around or when trying to get into a good position for stances. Daggers need a PA that sends you straight at the target even if you're too far, has good range, and can be chained with itself easily if you're REALLY far away, like kamikaze arrow and/or dead approach.

EDIT: Their short range compounds this. A boss needs only shift slightly to the side and suddenly you're flailing around in the air at nothing and have to use waltz again just to move 2 feet closer.

[gigawuts]

It's more than just that, too. Daggers also have pretty weak PP recovery, and their normal attack damage isn't exactly robust.

The whole weapon was approached wrong. Normal attacks should be comparable to PA damage, with PAs functioning as longer range and approach. Parrying in the air should also edge you towards your locked target.

Daggers are the prime example of something you just can't fix with more damage. The entire implementation is bad. The concept is great, they just didn't do it justice.

[Kondibon]

Normal attacks should be comparable to PA damage, with PAs functioning as longer range and approach.

I wouldn't go that far, having your normal attacks be comparable to skills that cost PP is a bit excessive. I'd actually prefer if they had more fast, cheap, spammable PAs than limiting PAs strictly to utility.

[gigawuts]

With such short range and little mobility I don't think it would be that big of a concern. The utility PAs would have the same kind of damage. But then, I can see your point.

[Kondibon]

With such short range and little mobility I don't think it would be that big of a concern. The utility PAs would have the same kind of damage. But then, I can see your point.Well I would think in our fantasy land daggers would have better aerial mobility anyway. :U

[Zenobia]

T. Daggers in the air are great on bosses that decide to move very little. De Malmoth is a major prey to this. Anything else that constantly moves? It's total shit and they have no way of adjusting on the fly. RW is not fast enough and very limited in its actual scope of closing distance.

Well my point is you would only use TD for things int he air not for shit that constantly moves around as you have other weps suited for that and there's always Bloody Sarabande for stuff like that.

Other than that I can see your point in some cases sure.

[jooozek]

i dont know if its just me but when sega first announced the first three new classes i was thinking that the shift action for double sabers was exactly switching between brave/wise stance
o u sega

[Kondibon]

i dont know if its just me but when sega first announced the first three new classes i was thinking that the shift action for double sabers was exactly switching between brave/wise stance
o u sega

I did too, except I thought they were position shifting skills (move behind an enemy, or move in front of an enemy), not stances. 3:

[Zenobia]

I actually thought the DS shift move was a Just Guard 8D!

[Chdata]

The point of that is because it's more fitting to what Twin daggers were made out to be (melee version of gunner), where katana combat lets you do that much easier than what fighter can do.

[MetalDude]

Well my point is you would only use TD for things int he air not for shit that constantly moves around as you have other weps suited for that and there's always Bloody Sarabande for stuff like that.

Other than that I can see your point in some cases sure.
Oh well yeah when it comes to ground play, I prefer running all-class HU weapons. I just feel that TDs have a potential and distinct advantage at staying on top of a target (especially with that weapon action), but are hampered by mobility badly. Something like an air step where you wouldn't lose altitude would do absolute wonders for TDs (and hell even Knuckles).

[Zenobia]

The point of that is because it's more fitting to what Twin daggers were made out to be (melee version of gunner), where katana combat lets you do that much easier than what fighter can do.

Think its best though that Katana Combat is where it needs to be for braver and with Brave Escapes makes it more balanced now.

Besides even if FI got Katana combat ppl would still just use DA anyway lol not to mention KC as the skill name is on TD would feel so outta place.

@Metaldude I gotcha.

[Zyrusticae]

I want infinite air jumping and air dashing.

We already have magical girl outfits and weapons in the game. Let's go FULL MONTY!

[Chdata]

Think its best though that Katana Combat is where it needs to be for braver and with Brave Escapes makes it more balanced now.

Besides even if FI got Katana combat ppl would still just use DA anyway lol not to mention KC as the skill name is on TD would feel so outta place.

@Metaldude I gotcha.

Well obvs if they made KC a TD thing in the first place, it'd be called Dagger Combat or something like that.

[Kondibon]

I want infinite air jumping and air dashing.


Yeah, if twin mech guns can do it, daggers should be able to do it. :I

[gigawuts]

I'm pretty sure they have different people making the ranged, melee, and force class types. There's no way the same person decided mechguns should be able to flip around like that, but daggers should work the way they do. There's just no way.

I'm joking of course, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

[Kikikiki]

http://puu.sh/4R1vJ.png

Is this Sonic Arrow of Katana.

[Zyrusticae]

With that and Speed Rain, we sure aren't lacking for wind blade attacks in this game!

[UnLucky]

I'm glad the bow gets another PA that's worthless on Br/Ra

They really want Hunter to be the only subclass.

[Kondibon]

http://puu.sh/4R1vJ.png

Is this Sonic Arrow of Katana.
noitsdemonfang

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0dkBMdqJ_E

[Gardios]

Oh god the horrors of the ToP GBA dub.

[The Walrus]

That dub was hilarious

[Bellion]

Oh god the horrors of the ToP GBA dub.

[SPOILER-BOX]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzlQgemRbio"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzlQgemRbio[/SPOILER-BOX]

This is the best one!

Well, hopefully the PA is a good mix between damage and range.

[Zenobia]

noitsdemonfang
Demon Fang - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0dkBMdqJ_E)

Nah its the Drive move from Dante in devil may Cry 4

[LonelyGaruga]

The new Katana PA is clearly Shippu. Yukikaze better be next.

[Imjake]

It's b.s. and the people acting like technics were unbalanced in the first place are full of crap. The slowness of casting more than makes up for the damage. If my lightning bolt zaps for 5k, any other class can easily do 3 times that or more in the time it takes for a fo or te to re cast.

[Zyrusticae]

TBH, most of the weakness of techniques nowadays is more due to the lack of decent damage boosting skills for forces and techers than anything else. ESPECIALLY techers. Goddamn, did they drop the ball on that one.

[TaigaUC]

Every broadcast has people commenting "buff Techer".
Their polls showed Techer is the least liked class.

Wonder when they'll actually do something about it.
Maybe they've realized that Techer's design is fundamentally flawed and have given up.

Perhaps they're going to introduce a new melee/caster hybrid class that makes Techer completely obsolete. That would still be stupid, though.

[ShinMaruku]

TBH, most of the weakness of techniques nowadays is more due to the lack of decent damage boosting skills for forces and techers than anything else. ESPECIALLY techers. Goddamn, did they drop the ball on that one.

Well they could fix that by making damage boosting skills baseline at certain level intervals and replace those skills with things that can make you specialize and what not. They did that Hunters would not scale everything off the fucking planet as well as Braver and Fighter. Gunner would probably fit more classes, but nah every thing is half baked because Sega does not have a big enough testing pool.

[SakoHaruo]

Perhaps they're going to introduce a new melee/caster hybrid class that makes Techer completely obsolete. That would still be stupid, though.

PSO2 Magic Knight :O damn that sounds delicious!




That would still be stupid, though.

:-x

[UnLucky]

TBH, most of the weakness of techniques nowadays is more due to the lack of decent damage boosting skills for forces and techers than anything else. ESPECIALLY techers. Goddamn, did they drop the ball on that one.

Hunter's skills don't boost tech damage, and Techer doesn't do much better either.

That, and elemental masteries further split your damage when you can't afford to in the first place.

It's like if weapon Gears required 20SP, and some bosses took half damage from certain weapons.

Actually, that would be a great balance patch for Hunter. Remove the two JA skills and Fury Stance Up 2, replace them with Sword/Partisan/Wirelance Mastery which give you 15% damage with the respective weapon for 5SP each.

[gigawuts]

Hunter's skills don't boost tech damage, and Techer doesn't do much better either.

That, and elemental masteries further split your damage when you can't afford to in the first place.

It's like if weapon Gears required 20SP, and some bosses took half damage from certain weapons.

Actually, that would be a great balance patch for Hunter. Remove the two JA skills and Fury Stance Up 2, replace them with Sword/Partisan/Wirelance Mastery which give you 15% damage with the respective weapon for 5SP each.

And what of fighter's weapons and braver's katana? Those aren't crazy OP. They'd need an improvement as well. I'd much rather see damage skills consolidated, some removed and an equivalent bonus applied to all striking-bonused attack base multipliers even when HU isn't subbed or mained (including wand gear & kicky gun moves), and then certain skills disconnected from their stances and made more accessible.

Make absorption work during both stances, put massive hunter where iron will is and give it a +2 second bonus to duration each time you deal damage, and add a skill that makes fistpumps and other animations uninterruptible.

Ideally the fury tree should suck down, at most, no more than 55 sp for raw damage multiplier skills. HP Up 1 to the last skill for 55 sp. The other 20 should be where the customization lies - do I want this bonus to PP maxed, at 1 sp, or not at all? Do I want this bonus to flinch resistance? Do I want this bonus? Do I want that bonus? Think about placing skills like Adrenaline, Bullet PP Save, etc. around the HU tree, accessible after maxing fury & ja bonuses. That's what it needs. This is the point of good skilltree design.

[UnLucky]

Well that alone frees up 20SP, and the Masteries would be 5% at 1SP so you can save a couple more if you wanted. That would still leave Hunter with an unconditional 190% damage from its skills, not including Gears. Other classes would get 165% (just make it all damage types).

Fighter needs a lot of changes. I mean, Fury Stance can get 150% damage with two 10SP skills. Brave Stance is only 144% with extra conditions for the same cost. With 20 more SP in Fury, it reaches 181%. For Fighter, you can get 169%, but in completely opposing conditions. And from there it only gets worse.

I'd cut the stances down to 5SP, same bonus but no damage penalty. And then make them a single active skill: Turn on the stance to get Brave's bonus, toggle it for Wise, no fist pump to switch, icon changes and glows a different color for each.

Add a 1SP Parry skill that inflicts a bleed status, which works on bosses. Cut Chase Advance to 5SP (so 20% damage) and keep CA+ the same. Combine Dead/Halfline Slayer into one skill that gives 1% damage (all types) per 4% HP lost, so both it and Halfline Boost become worthwhile. Give increased SE infliction rate to Crazy Beat and add poison drinks to the item shop. With either condition going, Parry will land Bleed 100% of the time (so 50% normally), and both will make SE affixes (and techs?) ~80%.

[cheapgunner]

Make techer better by giving them skills that are both offensive and defensive at the same time. Like dizas and rentis from psu, but add physical/technic based damage to them when an enemy deals the appropjate damage to you. Add a skill where u cast two support spells at the same time for the cost of their averages.

[BlakLanner]

A lot of the issues with Te come from two areas. The first is that we have to split our damage bonuses between elements, like Fo does except we lack the charge/JA boost options. The other is that we have to go deep into our trees just to get our class-defining abilities. It takes 25SP for Wand Reactor, 18 for PP Convert 1, and 26 for PP Restraint 10 (a skill that is pretty useless unless maxed). Many of these points get thrown into useless skills like status boosts. Few, if any, other classes have this issue.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Hunter's skills don't boost tech damage

Fury combo actually does. Nothing else though.

[Rien]

Every broadcast has people commenting "buff Techer".
Their polls showed Techer is the least liked class.

Wonder when they'll actually do something about it.
Maybe they've realized that Techer's design is fundamentally flawed and have given up.

Perhaps they're going to introduce a new melee/caster hybrid class that makes Techer completely obsolete. That would still be stupid, though.

What they did right: making skills like wand reactor to boost techer power

What they did wrong: only making new skills

They need to boost existing skills to actually make Techers a viable main/sub.

[cheapgunner]

What they did right: making skills like wand reactor to boost techer power

What they did wrong: only making new skills

They need to boost existing skills to actually make Techers a viable main/sub.

Here we go:

Wand Reactor: Up this to 0.5 instead

Shifta Crit: Don't necessarily increase the chance of a crit but make crits do more damage when you land one

Wand Lovers: Make this a Stance. Give the user a HP buff since their pp will remain zero till the end of the stance or they deactivate it early.

[Imjake]

Techer is not flawed. People are just too stupid to use it properly. There's a reason why you have wand gear and why wands have high s-atk. I enjoy techer and it's my main class. Like it way more than force. Zondeel+wand gear = win.

[SquashDemon]

Techer is not flawed. People are just too stupid to use it properly. There's a reason why you have wand gear and why wands have high s-atk. I enjoy techer and it's my main class. Like it way more than force. Zondeel+wand gear = win.

Careful now, you're entering into dangerous waters of non-conformity with a rampant and irresponsible opinion. It's only a matter of time now before one of your superiors, who knows more about this game than you and has been around since like, ever, tells you how much of a noob you are for playing a class that is NAWT AWPTIMALL! =P

[UMVC3_Wolverine]

Careful now, you're entering into dangerous waters of non-conformity with a rampant and irresponsible opinion. It's only a matter of time now before one of your superiors, who knows more about this game than you and has been around since like, ever, tells you how much of a noob you are for playing a class that is NAWT AWPTIMALL! =P

I'm waiting for this too. LOL.

[gigawuts]

Careful now, you're entering into dangerous waters of non-conformity with a rampant and irresponsible opinion. It's only a matter of time now before one of your superiors, who knows more about this game than you and has been around since like, ever, tells you how much of a noob you are for playing a class that is NAWT AWPTIMALL! =P

There's a difference between "not optimal" and "not flawed" but if you want to poke what you seem to think is a beehive, go right ahead.

I'll be waiting here for all the angry bees (that don't actually exist).

[Terrence]

People underestimate Wand Gear A LOT. TEchter is way better than anybody thinks... But I agree it's not a reason to insult like Imjake did.

[Lumpen Thingy]

Techer is not flawed. People are just too stupid to use it properly. There's a reason why you have wand gear and why wands have high s-atk. I enjoy techer and it's my main class. Like it way more than force. Zondeel+wand gear = win.

cute...

[UnLucky]

Zondeel+melee works ok against mobs, sure, but only when completely specced away from Tech damage so you have no good long distance attacks nor a way to take down bosses.

Wand Techer sucks as a melee and sucks as a caster no matter how you build it.

[Gama]

Techer is not flawed. People are just too stupid to use it properly. There's a reason why you have wand gear and why wands have high s-atk. I enjoy techer and it's my main class. Like it way more than force. Zondeel+wand gear = win.

would you mind sharing your techer tree with me?" i do prefer maining techer" its fun

[Rien]

People underestimate Wand Gear A LOT. TEchter is way better than anybody thinks... But I agree it's not a reason to insult like Imjake did.

Let's see, it essentially adds an explosion of tech damage in exchange for making your attack swings slower. Yes, this is a good idea because that's the whole reason you have t-attack as a techer to begin with.

However, even then, an AQ rare wand user will find themselves having trouble dealing good damage, even if their output is mostly consistent - assuming you have Wand Lovers to keep your gear up because otherwise you'd have more tech casting time which is a melee techer's main downfall: their tech damage just doesn't match up.

Yes, you could say things about Na Megid, but I'm not sure how much gear it produces, and there's the fact that a force would get higher output on it thanks to naturally stronger t-attack weapons and universal t-attack oriented skills making up for the lack of a dark mastery. Also, since you have 0 pp you can't use Zanverse to help you either.

[Sp-24]

A single well-aimed Zan, used against just one enemy, fills up the gear gauge.

Though that still doesn't make me like Wand Gear, even if I do like whacking things with rods and wands occasionally. It's hard to have fun with Techter when doing it alone means that bosses take 10 minutes to kill, and in a party, you are guaranteed to never ever get to do anything.

[Omega-z]

@Rien - Wands don't get slower with WG It adds more damage that stun locks. But does have a .3 slower casting speed. Also Melee Te can go thru the AQ areas easily enough even solo'd.

@Everyone - Also remember that when Na-Megid came out they said Te has a boss killer now. If you can't reach it with a Wand use Na-Megid if the conditions are right. This is "IF" you melee and most any other Tech is for Utility only to keep WG, Positioning, Stun locking, Closing Gaps.....etc. not for its DPS as much. Wand Lovers is good on "knocked" out Bosses. Its O.k with some Bosses but then your better off doing it the normal way then. But I agree with Terrence that Imjake did not go about it the right way even tho there "is" misunderstanding there.

[MetalDude]

I like the concepts that TE presents, but I entirely despise how they're executed.

Territory Burst - Major support tool giving it an edge over FO; is crippled by a stupid CD instead of being an active stance.
Extend Assist - Great way to actually make S/D last longer; is horribly impractical to apply because most of the time the party is scattered and moving way too fast (even when TB is in play).
Wands in general - Fairly decent damage and can hit multiple targets if they're clustered; good lord they're slow as all hell and TE was given absolutely no way to move in quickly on targets which is a critical flaw.
Element Weak Hit - Nice way to play to enemies' weaknesses; not nearly strong enough and outclassed by a /BR sub.

TE isn't horrible, but almost every facet of the class outside of PP Regen and PP Convert has crippling issues that Sega refuses to address because unlike GU, it would take a lot more than "Just tweak a few numbers here and there". It's clearly not a useless class because it has redeeming factors, but it's blatantly obvious how much better the other classes are.

[gigawuts]

Even if all that was addressed it still wouldn't make up for the fact that you're a split damage class in a single damage game.

When you're looking at things like /hu offering literally +100% damage to all offensive abilities of certain classes (that are far better fleshed out to begin with), something like TE just can't keep up with the same kinds of numbers. That's just one of many limitations facing the class that could easily be resolved with even a slight bit of thought.

Give wands Mirage Break, a long range step attack that works like guilty break, and then fix skill bonuses being so weird in what they apply to. Then put the active abilities above the masteries. Then turn EWH into Wand Tech Reactor: 40% of your character's striking converted into tech (or 50%, or whatever). That would be close enough for me.

[Saffran]

Baby steps, people, baby steps.
Make Wands behave like Gunslash. (shorter step, step attack).
Make Wand Reactor stand alone like the Gu SRoll skills.
Make EWH, Super Treatment, etc requisites lower.
Think in terms Sega would understand...

[Zyrusticae]

Like I said, an easy fix would be to make crits do bonus damage instead of just plain maximum damage, making shifta crit a very desirable thing to have in a party (even moreso in a full MPA). Also, making wand explosions do some AoE damage (and increasing their base damage) would go a loooong way. And give techers Adrenaline already!

They'd still absolutely suck against bosses (at least without na/sa/gimegid spam and full dark masteries), but at least their role as a support class would be fully cemented.

Other easy things they can do are things like doubling the effect of Shifta and Deband advance (the previous buff obviously wasn't close to enough to make them worthwhile), cutting the requirements to reach PP Restorate and EWH in half, and so on.

A full class rework is highly unlikely given the kinds of changes they've been making so far.

[Sp-24]

Think in terms Sega would understand...
AC Mastery
Undefined amount of levels, varies with the class. The skill adds +20% to all damage per level. 300 AC per skill point. Skill is passive, doesn't work when on a subclass, only your main class' one counts. Does not work at all if the user doesn't have premium. New levels are added when a class is deemed underpowered. Skill tree reset passes are not distributed when that happens, because you don't use SP on it in the first place.

Have I fixed PSO2 yet?

[gigawuts]

Also, with regards to techer's damage in MPAs and just in general, go get yourself sazan 16 and bask in the glory that is the SH-level techer. Sazan, zan, and gibarta really come together to form a well rounded class, even without an ice spec. With an ice spec gibarta is pretty spectacular. Nafoie is still great when cast off of a wand, too.

[MetalDude]

I've been hearing a lot about Sazan and Gibarta 16 so I'm hoping when I eventually get around to TE leveling, I'll find it.

[Kietsu]

Sazan 16 is incredible. Huge damage, never misses, and has minor suction.

[gigawuts]

Sazan as a damage tech is very interesting. Kietsu listed some of its pros, but it also has some moderate AOE (a bit less than rafoie, by the look of it) and some spectacular range via lockable target. By that I mean if you can press tab to lock a target, sazan can hit it - but TPS is still limited range, which is an odd limitation to impose.

It has one con, but it's a big one: Suction moves enemies to the center, even when you're hitting a weak point. For instance, hitting an exposed mizer with sazan will nick the weak point once, then pull the mizer's center point to the center of itself and damage the main body with the next 2 hits.

The high damage makes up for that on most mobs, and on many bosses that's not a concern, but on some it's a considerable drawback. Zan can be a stand-in, depending on the situation.

[Kietsu]

Sazan as a damage tech is very interesting. Kietsu listed some of its pros, but it also has some moderate AOE (a bit less than rafoie, by the look of it) and some spectacular range via lockable target. By that I mean if you can press tab to lock a target, sazan can hit it - but TPS is still limited range, which is an odd limitation to impose.

It has one con, but it's a big one: Suction moves enemies to the center, even when you're hitting a weak point. For instance, hitting an exposed mizer with sazan will nick the weak point once, then pull the mizer's center point to the center of itself and damage the main body with the next 2 hits.

The high damage makes up for that on most mobs, and on many bosses that's not a concern, but on some it's a considerable drawback. Zan can be a stand-in, depending on the situation.

The suction causing misses against 'mini' bosses is certainly annoying. Fortunately, in the case of *mizers at least, the usual arena is a big open box, so regular zan works just fine.

The TPS thing is definitely odd, especially considering Razan works the opposite way, letting you hit things outside tab range.

[Z-0]

No, TPS range is not limited, I used to use Sazan for hitting buttons and it had infinite range.

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[gigawuts]

I just tested to double check that. It is still capped if you're not aiming at a target, but isn't if you are. So at least you can TPS it to a target, when it was first released you couldn't even do that. I recall rather vividly having to struggle to sazan mizers into code capture rings very shortly after wind was added, and how much of a nuisance it was because of this limitation.

[D-Inferno]

I kind of feel like the x1.9 tech multiplier was supposed to go to Nazan, but whoever was editing the numbers didn't get the memo, and gave Sazan the boost instead. :/ None of the other "target tracking" techs (Rafoie, Sabarta, Zonde, Grants, Namegid) got boosted, so a target tracking tech has partial AoE thanks to suction getting a boost feels very strange. Just speculation on my part though.

I'm hope eventually TE tree gets a SP requirement nerfs (TE has more 5 point reqs than any other class in the game), as well as EWH2 (kind of hope that gets added while Brave/Wise 2 doesn't... :3 not that FI needs anymore multipliers).