PDA

View Full Version : Let's fix Forces



dr apocalipsis
Nov 28, 2013, 12:54 PM
It's not a surprise that SH killed FoTe as a viable class. Enemies have too much HP and casters suffers even at mobbing, when they were the best class at VH for that duty. Of course, they have nothing to do against other classes at bosses as before.

So let's try to figure out wich changes can Sega do to fix casters.

My list of fixes:

#1: Displacement normalization

- Make Fo run slower than other classes, because why not.

#2: Gunslash fix

- 'Fo Mag skill' at tree. Removes S-ata and R-ata at a fixed rate depending on the T-ata of your mag.
- Make basic attack of gunslashes waste PP and heal enemies as compensation.

#3: Selecting Force at class counter resets it to 0. At level 0 you can't perform any attack. Of course you can't get into MPAs since you have not the required level. You are allowed to die, though.

If you try to level up waiting for Oodans and Dagans to kill each other, you will get your account suspended and deleted.

#4: Useless weapon atribute for techs fix

- Buff Dodo's success rate +90% for both grinding and affixing.
- Remove the ability to hold meseta or items.

#5: Cristal slingshot fix

- Inmunity to moon atomizers.
- Added 20% weakness to both strike and range attacks. 100% resist to all tech attacks. 30% weakness to all elements. Damage formula multiplies weaknesses.
-Tech attacks removed from enemies, they count as R-ata instead.

#6: If you try to create a new character using Force, Pso2.exe will attempt to delete c: (again).

Sp-24
Nov 28, 2013, 01:07 PM
My list of fixes:

Mirage Boost - 500% more power on the next attack used right after Mirage Escape. It doesn't just fix Forces, either - even better, this means that Hunter's Fury Combo Up can not possibly apply, so now, Techter may be a better choice of a subclass for Force!

Coatl
Nov 28, 2013, 01:23 PM
You mean SH in general or SH Tas?

Shadowth117
Nov 28, 2013, 02:38 PM
No see, I think what would be better is if next patch, all traces of the force class were just gone! Think of it. You log in, no rods, no tatk, no magic defense, its just gone! Every game needs that worthless race and class combo and it would be amazing because newmans could be the worst at everything!



In all seriousness, I've found that with essentially maxed out gear, FoTe is actually... okay? Its not awful, but it severely lacks in the punch that other classes have in all aspects. Force in general, lacks in that I should say although for general usage force with techer sub is harder, not even having a reasonable way to travel to compensate.

I don't even want to go into how messed up the force tree itself is, but perhaps an alternative fix might be the techs themselves. I'm sure most of us PSO/PSU veterans remember how disappointed we were about techs not changing as you level them. Well, say they changed that? Than, we almost have a different class. Hell, there are a lot of techs that would be far better if they just changed how they worked (oh, sup there almost every ice tech!).

Techer is its own issue as well. Would be great for buffs to last longer WITHOUT waiting extra time. Or you know, to be able to just give one hit of shifta to give everyone full time for it. And of course, for that time to be more than 2 minutes (because putting 9 extra skill points in for another minute when you have sit 10 seconds for the full shifta just isn't worth it).

I mean those are just ideas, and I know force and techer aren't the only classes with problems, but seriously...

The Walrus
Nov 28, 2013, 02:40 PM
Could just massively buff the damage for hitting an elemental weakness with a tech

Alma
Nov 28, 2013, 02:48 PM
In all seriousness, I've found that with essentially maxed out gear, FoTe is actually... okay? Its not awful, but it severely lacks in the punch that other classes have in all aspects.

agreed with this!

its a bad joke when a GU/HU with half assed equipment can still one shot mobs in SH
while FO/TE to be able to one shot mobs, need a really high tear equipment :/

gigawuts
Nov 28, 2013, 02:52 PM
Could just massively buff the damage for hitting an elemental weakness with a tech

They need to bring back varying element weaknesses very badly. This 1 element for an entire native species thing is completely bull.

NoiseHERO
Nov 28, 2013, 02:52 PM
Give them a melee weapon with melee PA's with hunter being a good sub to it.

Then just use resta/buffs/get-over-here-zondeel and nothing else.

Emp
Nov 28, 2013, 02:56 PM
Give them a melee weapon with melee PA's with hunter being a good sub to it.

Then just use resta/buffs/get-over-here-zondeel and nothing else.

Or just buff wand strike skills and up the speed of the wand swing. U can be pro wand as fo and deal major dmg.

Zyrusticae
Nov 28, 2013, 03:32 PM
Could just massively buff the damage for hitting an elemental weakness with a tech
I am against this.

You're already pigeon-holed into using whatever element you're fighting is weak to. If anything I would like less of that and more generalization so I can actually use the elements I enjoy.

Funny how it turned out this way, though. Who could have foreseen their "buffs" to Hunter would make every other class OP except the forces & techers?

gigawuts
Nov 28, 2013, 03:50 PM
I am against this.

You're already pigeon-holed into using whatever element you're fighting is weak to. If anything I would like less of that and more generalization so I can actually use the elements I enjoy.

Funny how it turned out this way, though. Who could have foreseen their "buffs" to Hunter would make every other class OP except the forces & techers?

Everyone, including Sega.

I have a feeling they really did it just to sell more skilltrees. Balance be damned, they need to keep their AC sales up.

GALEFORCE
Nov 28, 2013, 03:52 PM
agreed with this!

its a bad joke when a GU/HU with half assed equipment can still one shot mobs in SH
while FO/TE to be able to one shot mobs, need a really high tear equipment :/

To be fair, gunner has very little in the way of AoE. Their one true mobbing PA requires charging and is very stiff to control.

I think fixing shifta would go a long way towards helping Fo and Te both. If shifta were easy and quick to apply, and boosted their damage by ~30% total, they could be good support with better damage all around. Te would also finally be a viable subclass for those looking for hybrid gameplay.

Darki
Nov 28, 2013, 04:20 PM
Make uncharged techs do more damage than charged techs.

Make them cost double the PP.

Keep the effects as they are. Make charged techs be a more "controlled" and efficient version of the uncharged techs which are expensive and impractical but stronger.

gigawuts
Nov 28, 2013, 04:29 PM
Remove charge from some techs entirely. Why not the entire make na-series of techs no-charge? Namegid would still have its application period, but would gain bonus from uncharge skills instead.

Nazan, nagrants, nazonde...

But only if I find an Elysion.

Walkure
Nov 28, 2013, 05:14 PM
To be fair, gunner has very little in the way of AoE. Their one true mobbing PA requires charging and is very stiff to control.
Man that's rough, having to charge attacks and everything.


I think fixing shifta would go a long way towards helping Fo and Te both. If shifta were easy and quick to apply, and boosted their damage by ~30% total, they could be good support with better damage all around. Te would also finally be a viable subclass for those looking for hybrid gameplay.Shifta and Deband, at the least, should tick for everyone in the party regardless of distance on the map, at least.

Topping off HP with Resta on moving people is pretty easy. Being able to keep up Shifta and Deband on yourself requires standing still for a bit.

strikerhunter
Nov 28, 2013, 05:30 PM
Man that's rough, having to charge attacks and everything.

Only 2 Gu PA requires charging and only 1 of the 2 (Heel stab) is good.


To be fair, gunner has very little in the way of AoE. Their one true mobbing PA requires charging and is very stiff to control.


Actually, HS is not quite stiff if you can turn the screen quickly and tab-lock something behind you forcing your character to turn around while spraying the bullets in an even bigger arc. Also, any PA after flip is more than enough for mobbing.

On topic:

The issue with Fo and Te is that the tree are divided up based on elements, forcing players to go 1 specific element or 2 if they want to deal full damage. Those that have focus on damage would then make other parts of the tree rather useless, like how Photon Flare ended up or the resta line for TE why heal more when 1 charge resta heals you full already.

Honestly, I say wipe the entire current FO tree and replace it with a new one focusing on 1 tree line for Rods and 1 tree line for Talis. Same for TE, wipe the current tree and make a new with 2 lines having 1 dedicated for damage with wand and the other powering up supports to make it viable.

Basically wipe the entire thing basing on elements and putting towards weapons or stances like all the other classes.

pkemr4
Nov 28, 2013, 05:32 PM
Make uncharged techs do more damage than charged techs.

Elysion

UnLucky
Nov 28, 2013, 05:44 PM
I think what they should do is change elemental masteries to 10% damage at max, and only apply if the target is weak to that element.

Reduce the elemental branching so that Flame S Charge is under Burn Boost, Freeze Ignite is under Freeze Boost, and Bolt PP Save is under Shock Boost. Each require 5 SP in the respective SE skill.

Turn PP Charge Revival into a 10 SP skill that grants 10-40% PP regen while charging.

Add a new Rod Tech Bonus skill that gives 10% damage with rods for 10 SP.

Zorafim
Nov 28, 2013, 06:10 PM
Elysion

Good thing everyone has access to this.

So what's this about forces sucking? Did they really make them bad at endgame again? Why does this always happen?

gigawuts
Nov 28, 2013, 06:12 PM
Good thing everyone has access to this.

So what's this about forces sucking? Did they really make them bad at endgame again? Why does this always happen?

Also good thing it's only 2x damage instead of 3x damage like most charged techs are.

Gama
Nov 28, 2013, 06:16 PM
Elysion

lots and lots and lots of cash.

Edson Drake
Nov 28, 2013, 06:17 PM
My main is a Thunder/Dark Force, and it really feels underpowered at SH, but then, I don't have absolute perfect gear and my Rod is only 915 T-ATK, and still needs to max Element weak hit(only level 4). Compared to my RA/HU and GU/RA, she's a joke, but I like the flexibility and utility. Shifta/Deband really need a buff or skill point reduction.

dr apocalipsis
Nov 28, 2013, 06:24 PM
First change of all:

Make wep attribute count into final damage as any other classes. That alone is the punch class need after attribute grinding nerf overpowered S and R ata.

Damage formula can be a little tricky to apply when tech and attribute have different elements, but even the most basic aproach should work better than now.

(Current basic dmg)+(%basic damage with wep attribute)

Or even better, nerf all other classes. They are OP.

Darki
Nov 28, 2013, 06:41 PM
Elysion

So, my idea would make uncharged techs like nukes using Elysion, but since they'd cost even more PP, along with the fact that you wouldn't leave any time to regenerate while casting, I don't see that it would make it too unbalancing. Even if you were on an uncharged tech spree during Ketos Proi, you'd burn your PP faster that you regenerate it.

My point is that I think a way to make uncharged techs useful (save for a niche weapon that only improves two of them), isn't to keep them weaker, even if you made their effects proportional. Even if unchargd techs costed much less PP, unless their DPS were still better than charged, what would be the point on using them anyways?

In the other hand, if you make them as strong but more costly, they'd serve a purpose.

Sienna
Nov 28, 2013, 06:44 PM
In the other hand, if you make them as strong but more costly, they'd serve a purpose
Wonder how funny that would be with Elysion Lv.3 / namegid

Darki
Nov 28, 2013, 06:51 PM
I wasn't thinking about that one in particular, but seeing how Namegid works differently from other techs I guess it's uncharged effect could simply be different.

Or fuck, nerf Elysion. Why a stupid-looking wand should hold back a class.

isCasted
Nov 28, 2013, 07:15 PM
I get that it's supposed to be a joke thread, but...

1) Turn Freeze/Shock/Poison... boosts into a single 10 SP skill that makes 25-50% boost when maxed. Also, it should affect non-tech attacks.
2) Make effect of elemental masteries at least double of what it is. Also, make it affect non-tech attacks.
3) Photon Flare? GTFO.
4) Make charging Wand Gear matter.
5) Shifta Advance? Resta Advance? OH COME ON, putting 30 SP into a single support technique people barely care about is ridiculous.
...
∞) Completely erase Fury Up 2 and Fury Combo Up (and maybe JA Bonus 2 too, that's arguable) from Hunter's tree.

strikerhunter
Nov 28, 2013, 07:26 PM
I get that it's supposed to be a joke thread, but...


How is it a joke thread? It's a suggestion based-thread.

gigawuts
Nov 28, 2013, 07:27 PM
I get that it's supposed to be a joke thread, but...

1) Turn Freeze/Shock/Poison... boosts into a single 10 SP skill that makes 25-50% boost when maxed. Also, it should affect non-tech attacks.
2) Make effect of elemental masteries at least double of what it is. Also, make it affect non-tech attacks.
3) Photon Flare? GTFO.
4) Make charging Wand Gear matter.
5) Shifta Advance? Resta Advance? OH COME ON, putting 30 SP into a single support technique people barely care about is ridiculous.
...
∞) Completely erase Fury Up 2 and Fury Combo Up (and maybe JA Bonus 2 too, that's arguable) from Hunter's tree.

I like most of these, just going to amend them a slight bit
1) I'd rather see them turn into quality boosts, e.g. bonus damage, duration, or resilience, preferably merged with masteries (With masteries also still boosting SE rate)
2) I disagree completely. I'd rather see masteries reduced significantly, and then elements made functionally different (like bolt PP save and flame tech charge S do). Then give different enemies different resists, i.e. Dagan weak to fire & lightning but resistant to dark & ice, El Dagan weak to wind & light but resistant to wind & lightning, Dagan Nero weak to ice & fire but resistant to lightning and light
3) agreed, drop this skill like a dead baby
4) Definitely agreed, although I'm not sure how. I've thought about making it interact with tech charging, but that would take away from rod's main purpose. So maybe +PP recovery, AOE, and damage instead.
5) Agreed. Make them do new things. Shifta Crit should be replaced with Shiftaplosion, up to a 15% chance to leave a zan-like AOE explosion when dealing damage
...
∞) Agreed, partially. Melee should receive extra base damage across the board. Not quite as much as it loses, because in all honesty - even (especially) as a melee main, I have to say melee is becoming a bit too heavy hitting. Melee's damage wasn't the problem, its mobility was. Remove a couple skills, raise melee base damage almost as much as it loses from those skills, and add a new Step Lunge attack that lets us do dash->PA button for a longer range leap attack at the cost of like 10-20 PP.

The problem with FO isn't limited to FO. FO's a bit too underpowered, and the other classes are a bit too damaging because Sega just keeps throwing big numbers at anything with even the slightest bit of trouble or underuse. See: Sazan which has become god tier, Illusion Rave which has over a 1k modifier but is still complete shit because its problem is how long its animation is and its lack of hyper armor or canceling to compensate

GALEFORCE
Nov 28, 2013, 09:30 PM
Shifta and Deband, at the least, should tick for everyone in the party regardless of distance on the map, at least.

Topping off HP with Resta on moving people is pretty easy. Being able to keep up Shifta and Deband on yourself requires standing still for a bit.

I would prefer they get rid of the ticks entirely. If you hit someone with shifta, they should get the full duration. This also conserves some of territory burst's utility (should still be a stance though). Having to stand still for a bit is just not worth it given it's only about a ~10% damage increase and must be recast frequently.

I maintain that if shifta were as good as in older games, FO and TE would be pretty balanced.

UnLucky
Nov 28, 2013, 10:09 PM
∞) Completely erase Fury Up 2 and Fury Combo Up (and maybe JA Bonus 2 too, that's arguable) from Hunter's tree.
Make Fury Stance apply to techs.

Balanced the Sega way.

Zorafim
Nov 28, 2013, 11:55 PM
Get rid of fury stance, and skill trees, and let classes only determine what weapons you can equip. Seriously, if you're going to use a format because WoW uses it, don't use one that WoW gave up on because it didn't work.

Skyly HUmar
Nov 29, 2013, 12:07 AM
Get rid of fury stance, and skill trees, and let classes only determine what weapons you can equip. Seriously, if you're going to use a format because WoW uses it, don't use one that WoW gave up on because it didn't work.

Or they can use the psp2 system where you chose the weapons you want and your class determines how many points you need to invest to use X weapon. It does the same thing almost but it also gives you the freedom to chose what stats you want with what weapon.

They could also make skill trees just skills and get rid of/fix some of the useless ones.

Back on topic. If fo is suffering in damage, they could incorporate that one skill i suggested a while back, where if you hit an enemy with a tech it does extra damage to other enemies around it, that way you keep classes balanced by not having force being the god of mobs and bosses, but you also keep the force as the most efficient mob killers. But for this to work other classes would have to be nerfed in other areas to keep it fair, so this skill could also apply to boss parts where you hit one and the rest recive a bit of damage as well.

ShinMaruku
Nov 29, 2013, 12:15 AM
Everyone, including Sega.

I have a feeling they really did it just to sell more skilltrees. Balance be damned, they need to keep their AC sales up.
I have a feeling it's just not thinking on the changes they made. I look at a company who normally are OK at balancing Capcom and they buffed Viper in Ultra when she's a top character already. >_>

cheapgunner
Nov 29, 2013, 12:22 AM
Here's a better idea. Make a skill so techs can hit like HR does, multiple hitboxes at a time. Barta all of the sudden becomes god tier.

ShinMaruku
Nov 29, 2013, 12:34 AM
Ok if forces need a bit of fixing we need techer to boost tech damage like how hunter did for the other classes.


- fix casting buffs there should be no ticks no charging. They should be 5-8 mins base without the increase skill drop that one. Also make it a larger boost so it is significant.


-cut some of the tree bloat so more points can be put in better areas some of these skills are fucking stupid.


-they seem so intent on that shitty photon flare, if they want it to be worth something make it make a bonus of instant charges and bonus damage.


-tweak elemental weak hit to not only boost damage to weak points but also put bonus on your decided element trees.


-make SEs work better perhaps a spec choice where you have 60-90% chance to adding status effects and make damage of the dots something significant.

-some tech fixes improve some of the worthless ones.

Skyly HUmar
Nov 29, 2013, 01:02 AM
Ok if forces need a bit of fixing we need techer to boost tech damage like how hunter did for the other classes.


I dont think this is a good idea unless they fix the trees so techers can take advantage of it as well. When hunters got a buff every class got more out of it's tree than it did (till they nerfed range but it didnt matter much since its still the best option for more damage.) which is kinda bullshit. If youre gonna improve one class through another class' sill tree you also have to make sure that class 2 doesnt become more useful as a subclass than it would being a main class.

ShinMaruku
Nov 29, 2013, 01:07 AM
I am being merely pragmatic. Techer already is that. There would need to be some big changes to make all classes stand on their own but how things are some classes are just that subclasses.