Wand lovers buff: enough?

[holmwood]

As you may know, wand lovers adds step attack and increases your strike power by 35%. Combine this with the technique crafting for fast casting zan...:whip: Well, seems pretty weak still. What do you think?

[UnLucky]

If they keep the 30s duration, 45s cd, for 10 SP...

[Gardios]

They should just buff wand base and/or gear damage instead. :/

[Hrith]

Step Attack to a weapon that does not have Step?

35% strike damage is a lot, TE/HU will like. Still a solo thing; having 0 PP on a class that's supposed to support is useless in a party.

[UnLucky]

No more PP Penalty

And I sure hope "+35% S-ATK" is actually Striking damage so it affects both the physical hit and Wand Gear tech explosions. That would make it about +20% average damage (factoring out the downtime). For 10 SP that isn't so bad.

If it's extra base stats then the skill still sucks.

[Kondibon]

Step Attack to a weapon that does not have Step?

35% strike damage is a lot, TE/HU will like. Still a solo thing; having 0 PP on a class that's supposed to support is useless in a party.
I believe wand lovers changes the wand's dodge to step.

Also it has no downsides anymore. The 0 pp isn't a thing anymore.

[Xaelouse]

Hopefully they do something about the icon since it has that red PP bar as if PP will get depleted still or something

[holmwood]

Step Attack to a weapon that does not have Step?

35% strike damage is a lot, TE/HU will like. Still a solo thing; having 0 PP on a class that's supposed to support is useless in a party.

Pp reduction effect was removed. :O

Anyway, Im concerned that step attack will be weaker than regular attack, and 35% attack increase will be pointless. :/

[Kondibon]

Pp reduction effect was removed. :O

Anyway, Im concerned that step attack will be weaker than regular attack, and 35% attack increase will be pointless. :/
Step attack is always weaker. ._. but it's not like you can only do step attacks.

[gigawuts]

It'll be enough when it has a 10 minute duration.

[UnLucky]

You mean 30 seconds of toggle-on Step Attack isn't enough for you?

Ungrateful leech, don't you realize this is a 100% free game?

[gigawuts]

You mean 30 seconds of toggle-on Step Attack isn't enough for you?

Ungrateful leech, don't you realize this is a 100% free game?

thingspeopleactuallybelieve.gif

[Kondibon]

Actually... having it work like a stance would be pretty interesting if the trade off is that you can't use mirage escape to cheese your way through tough to dodge attacks.

[yoshiblue]

Wands needs a mark of death that either makes techs do explosive amounts of damage or causes a crit boost. Yeah. :cool:

[Xaelouse]

Are we certain step attack is even attached to the skill?
If you want mirage escape available to you, you can just switch to a talis...

[Sanguine2009]

to be honest i would have been more than fine with just the step attack, but a nice damage multiple and no pp penalty as well is more than i hoped for, i can even forgive if they dont give it higher duration (although i would prefer it) as its only a 15s effective cooldown at lv10

overall i might be happy with this buff, but i need to test it out first

[gigawuts]

It's more than just a 15 second cooldown - it's a fistpump every 45 seconds. That shit gets tedious fast. Fight starting: Fistpump. Mid-fight: Fistpump.

They should be reducing tediousness, not making it an innate part of a class's original role - a better use of its main weapon.

Just imagine if you had to do a fistpump every 45 seconds on every other melee class to use a core function. Much more important than step attack and 35% damage (edit: only to normal swings!), since wands don't have such powerful PAs and will thus rely far more on step attacks and normal swings to get around and deal damage. There's no hatou rindou or assault buster or guilty break here, they need to actually walk there, and step attack is going to be the better gap closer compared to walking.

[GALEFORCE]

The wording makes it sound like anything but a damage multiplier, unfortunately. 35% is still somewhat significant even from a base stat perspective at least. If you have a full satk mag, that's about 247 satk from a TeHu. Given its current performance though, a full on multiplier would have been warranted.

[gigawuts]

I'm still boggling over how Wand Lovers isn't a two-way skill. They should put a skill in that gives techs the contact multiplier (qualifying it for chase skills & fury stance) or at least a multiplier when gear is up....or something.

Then again, I'm still waiting on element weak hit latents instead of more photon flare and tech JA latents on wands. Seriously - the steampunk weapon series all has latents for their respective main class's standard damage skill (excluding the steam knuckles). Brave stance, photon flare, weak hit advance... The steam wand gets photon flare. An active skill that is rarely used by another class.

Who the fucking fuck designs techer? Is techer, and only techer, outsourced? Seriously.

[UnLucky]

There are no 10* wands with the Immediate Strike latent, but there are two with Immediate Justice and I'm loathe to call it a casting weapon. Whenever they end up getting a plain ol' JA latent for all damage types, it will likely be only 3% at lv3.

The entire Techer tree feels like Photon Flare in its design.

[Sanguine2009]

well i say im happy with the buff because i expected sega to sega and only increase the duration and nothing else arguably making the skill even worse than it is now, i agree that fist pumping every 45 seconds is tedious but its still better than what we have now.
even a 35% s att bonus would be nice to have as long as it boosts total att not base as wands have high satt and if its for some reason applied after wand reactor is...

as for the PA issue its optimistic but there is a chance we can turn techs into psuedo t-att based PAs with the customization system by lowering the charge speed or raising the damage so that possibly less of an issue now

[gigawuts]

That's true. I'm just concerned they'll call this a job done without following up.

And...

i expected sega to sega
has to be the best thing I've read all day

[TaigaUC]

I thought the fist pumping was supposed to introduce optional variation into whatever it is you're normally doing tediously.
Doesn't mean the fist pumping itself isn't also tedious, though. It's just another layer of tedium.
If it was any other game, we'd have some kind of awe-inspiring magic activation gesture with fearsome audio and visual effect.

Not entirely relevant, but I tried Freeze Ignition and it's just the same old fist pump that makes a (low) number appear on frozen enemies.
I am disappoint. I tried to show it to my friend, and for a long while, neither of us could tell if anything had even happened.
I honestly expected some kind of ice shattering effect, to at least make it feel satisfying. Alas.

[GALEFORCE]

I wish they'd use the photon blast animation for some of those actives. Probably more disruptive, but at least it looks cool.

[gigawuts]

Yeah I've wanted the PB animation for freeze and poison ignition for ages. Also, the ability to use it on a specific hitbox that you have targeted if you can't already. It seems to go by what hitbox is closest on a given target. As it is it's pretty...awful.

[Link1275]

So if Wand Lovers becomes useful I'm seeing this as the potential go to tree for techers: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000008kbI22SIkjbnbnIkfbn0 000j4Odq5didjFXIkGAI200000Ib000008

[GALEFORCE]

I don't see a wand whacking Te/Fo being a thing. A Te/Hu would appreciate the Territory Burst. I'm not familiar enough with the te/hu playstyle to know whether you'd be investing in dark mastery either.

[UnLucky]

Not entirely relevant, but I tried Freeze Ignition and it's just the same old fist pump that makes a (low) number appear on frozen enemies.
I am disappoint. I tried to show it to my friend, and for a long while, neither of us could tell if anything had even happened.
I honestly expected some kind of ice shattering effect, to at least make it feel satisfying. Alas.
Even RO had better freezing mechanics. Lightning spells did double damage to frozen targets. Yeah it broke after one hit, but still.


I wish they'd use the photon blast animation for some of those actives. Probably more disruptive, but at least it looks cool.
Isn't it the same thing? I distinctly remember holding my fist in the air to use a PB... I'll have to watch closely next time.


So if Wand Lovers becomes useful I'm seeing this as the potential go to tree for techers: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000008kbI22SIkjbnbnIkfbn0 000j4Odq5didjFXIkGAI200000Ib000008
No TB, EWH, or PPC, but you have Poison Boost and Ignite.. hmm

If nothing else, I'd put the 14 SP from Poison into the Wind Masteries.

[GALEFORCE]

Well, I suppose the PB hold animation is kind of like the fist bump, but the actual casting has your character put their arm in front of them like they're a wizard or something. You'd think if they could afford to make silly dances every two weeks they could make some more varied animations for the gameplay.

[ShinMaruku]

This is why I rate EA over sega and I fucking hate EA. Sega atleast I spend less money and they have some good ideas but no ambition.

EA has plenty of no good ambition.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Well, I suppose the PB hold animation is kind of like the fist bump, but the actual casting has your character put their arm in front of them like they're a wizard or something. You'd think if they could afford to make silly dances every two weeks they could make some more varied animations for the gameplay.

Hey... we're getting the moonwalk.


This is why I rate EA over sega and I fucking hate EA. Sega atleast I spend less money and they have some good ideas but no ambition.

EA has plenty of no good ambition.

Funny, I was just thinking about this a little while ago, and I'd rate sega over EA.

It's not like sega is making their own game developers, and players bend over as much. :whip:

[Rakurai]

I hope they lighten up the skill requirements in certain parts of the Techer tree.

The number of skills requiring five points in the light branch make it impossible to max one of the element masteries, Wand Lovers, and EWH while still getting some utility skills.

[Link1275]

No TB, EWH, or PPC, but you have Poison Boost and Ignite.. hmm

If nothing else, I'd put the 14 SP from Poison into the Wind Masteries.

A.) That's just a preliminary build I pulled together. B.) TB is worthless(due to Supportive techniques essentially being worthless in practice), EWH isn't that great all things considered(it isn't as good as being specialized by about 1% or so), and PPC requires too many SPs to be able to get it with a lot of trees.

A more final build looks like this right now: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rCbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbxfb MIk7bInqnGKJ7JiGA000007bHnGAbnGKfcAjr0000fbJdHSiel DcAfbs0000lb2DEFcFbncDGA000064OIk2XcKjbnbnIkIb0000 6kbdq5didI2cFqxIk4NI200000Ibfk2dncKsNJ2l20000

or this:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rCbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbxfb MIk7bInqnGKsNdqInfJiGA000007bHnGBboGKIbcAjr0000fbJ dJ29KcAi20000lb2QBscFbncDGA00006kbIk2XcKjbnbnIk000 084OdoldI2cFqxHXIn00000ibfk2dncKsNJ2l20000

After the update, if wand lover is useful enough to justify the extra 7 points, then it can look like this: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rCbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbxfb MIk7bInqnGKsNdqInfJiGA000007bHnGBboGKIbcAjr0000fbJ dJ29KcAi20000lb2QBscFbncDGA00006kbIk2XcKjbnbnIk000 084OId5didjqxHXGAI200000Ibfk2dncKsNJ2l20000

It could also look like this post update:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rCbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbxfb MIk7bInqnGKsNdqInfJiGA000007bHnGBboGKIbcAjr0000fbJ dJ29KcAi20000lb2QBscFbncDGA00006kbIk2XcKjbnbnIk000 084OdqJkidI2cFjGAI200000Ibfk2dncKsNJ2l20000

It really depends on the techer's preference of tech and if they want to bother with using Wand Lover's all that much.

Also:

I don't see a wand whacking Te/Fo being a thing. A Te/Hu would appreciate the Territory Burst. I'm not familiar enough with the te/hu playstyle to know whether you'd be investing in dark mastery either.
Te/Hu is from what I have seen in my experiences of playing techer one of the worst class combos you could ever make given how incredibly powerful a Te/Fo can be(granted not in SH as neither Te or Fo can excel there very well yet to my knowledge). You need the ability to use techs to charge your wand gear. Techer is a balancing game between techs and melee. Use some techs to get enemies weakened up and then take them out with wand gear explosions. Group up your enemies using Zondeel and then take them out by unleashing a couple of Gifoies followed by a good whack up the head and massive explosion chains. Your weapons are also for the most part equipped with T-ATK not S-ATK, therefore having a higher T-ATK is BETTER, as it leads to being able to equip better wand which increase your S-Atk and T-Atk, and if you have Wand Reactor you can also benefit even more greatly by being able to equip wands with higher T-Atk values as those will have significantly better S-Atk. Ergo, Te/Hu only looks good until you take a good look at it(especially with the way Wand Lovers is being changed). And while yes, if you want to play Te/Hu that is your right, Sega keeps pulling moves that say techer needs to be played with a force subclass and that it needs to be juggling techs and melee.

*There may be some points misallocated in these builds due to oversights caused by making builds at a quarter past 1 in the morning.

[qoxolg]

A.) That's just a preliminary build I pulled together. B.) TB is worthless(due to Supportive techniques essentially being worthless in practice), EWH isn't that great all things considered(it isn't as good as being specialized by about 1% or so), and PPC requires too many SPs to be able to get it with a lot of trees.

A more final build looks like this right now: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rCbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbxfb MIk7bInqnGKJ7JiGA000007bHnGAbnGKfcAjr0000fbJdHSiel DcAfbs0000lb2DEFcFbncDGA000064OIk2XcKjbnbnIkIb0000 6kbdq5didI2cFqxIk4NI200000Ibfk2dncKsNJ2l20000

or this:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rCbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbxfb MIk7bInqnGKsNdqInfJiGA000007bHnGBboGKIbcAjr0000fbJ dJ29KcAi20000lb2QBscFbncDGA00006kbIk2XcKjbnbnIk000 084OdoldI2cFqxHXIn00000ibfk2dncKsNJ2l20000

After the update, if wand lover is useful enough to justify the extra 7 points, then it can look like this: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rCbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbxfb MIk7bInqnGKsNdqInfJiGA000007bHnGBboGKIbcAjr0000fbJ dJ29KcAi20000lb2QBscFbncDGA00006kbIk2XcKjbnbnIk000 084OId5didjqxHXGAI200000Ibfk2dncKsNJ2l20000

It could also look like this post update:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rCbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbxfb MIk7bInqnGKsNdqInfJiGA000007bHnGBboGKIbcAjr0000fbJ dJ29KcAi20000lb2QBscFbncDGA00006kbIk2XcKjbnbnIk000 084OdqJkidI2cFjGAI200000Ibfk2dncKsNJ2l20000

It really depends on the techer's preference of tech and if they want to bother with using Wand Lover's all that much.

Also:

Te/Hu is from what I have seen in my experiences of playing techer one of the worst class combos you could ever make given how incredibly powerful a Te/Fo can be(granted not in SH as neither Te or Fo can excel there very well yet to my knowledge). You need the ability to use techs to charge your wand gear. Techer is a balancing game between techs and melee. Use some techs to get enemies weakened up and then take them out with wand gear explosions. Group up your enemies using Zondeel and then take them out by unleashing a couple of Gifoies followed by a good whack up the head and massive explosion chains. Your weapons are also for the most part equipped with T-ATK not S-ATK, therefore having a higher T-ATK is BETTER, as it leads to being able to equip better wand which increase your S-Atk and T-Atk, and if you have Wand Reactor you can also benefit even more greatly by being able to equip wands with higher T-Atk values as those will have significantly better S-Atk. Ergo, Te/Hu only looks good until you take a good look at it(especially with the way Wand Lovers is being changed). And while yes, if you want to play Te/Hu that is your right, Sega keeps pulling moves that say techer needs to be played with a force subclass and that it needs to be juggling techs and melee.

*There may be some points misallocated in these builds due to oversights caused by making builds at a quarter past 1 in the morning.

I usually don't comment here.. but.. wuhh..? what the.. huh? How can y.. why?

Zondeel is TE/HU's primary tech to cast and TB increases it's range by a lot. With the Tech crafting coming soon, I will be sure to sacrifice the power of zondeel to increase it's range even further.

EWH is a great boost if you have a wand for each element and is one of the few skills in the techer tree that increases melee.

and lol.. why put points in wand reactor and wand lovers if you don't put a point in wand gear... the whole point of wand smacking is the fact that you get the wand explosions..

Looking at your skill trees, I can imagine your experience with TE/HU would be bad. Techs don't play much of a role for TE/HU, other then charging your gear and utility like zondeel, razan and rabarta. TE/HU's only problem are bosses, and the upcoming step attack will solve part of this problem.

I don't see much point in playing TE/FO since it is simply a worse casting class. Why would we need two casting classes anyway?

[ShinMaruku]

Hey... we're getting the moonwalk.



Funny, I was just thinking about this a little while ago, and I'd rate sega over EA.

It's not like sega is making their own game developers, and players bend over as much. :whip:
The only reason I rate EA over them is incompetence. I'd rather play sega games than EA (Which I do) but they both make me mad at my fellow consumers. (Actually just EA in that regard)

[UnLucky]

Te/Hu is from what I have seen in my experiences of playing techer one of the worst class combos you could ever make given how incredibly powerful a Te/Fo can be

But you didn't even get EWH, the only damage skill that stacks with Force's elements...

Fo/Fi or Fo/Br would be a lot more powerful. I know Techer has PP regen, but I wouldn't exactly call it power. You didn't even pick up Talis Tech Bonus for Sazan/Namegid cheese.

Anyway, Stina is an S-Atk req wand that has the highest total S-Atk out of all of them, with or without Wand Reactor. Plus it has Fury Stance latent.

You talk about PPC costing too many points, but then you go and max Mirage Boost. You realize very few techs actually need a maxed PPC to sustain them, right? You're mostly fine with lv3 or 6. And making a beeline for Wand Reactor isn't the best idea unless you plan on mostly melee. It's a good amount of S-Atk, but that won't boost your Wand Gear explosions, and your Te/Fo builds have zero Striking multipliers.

[Rakurai]

I don't see much point in playing TE/FO since it is simply a worse casting class. Why would we need two casting classes anyway?

At least TE/FO might be more viable once item upgrading comes around, due to being able to make the wands with bonus ice/fire/lightning damage latents usable.

Though you'd still probably cause more damage with a talis regardless, because the Talis tech bonus skill is kind of OP.

[Saffran]

How are 20% overpowered? S-Rolled WBed Chainfinished is 9000ish% ... (it actually REALLY is over 9000)

Te/Hu is perfectly viable and will be even more so after the update. Right now Territory Burst -> Zondeel -> Wand Lovers -> start whacking is a bit silly, but after the update you will be able to start Wand Lovers *before* getting all enemies in your face.
As for bosses, well, yeah, it's tedious.

[gigawuts]

Just gonna say that TB on Zondeel and double mastery Zanverse is awesome. Haters gonna hate.

[Link1275]

I usually don't comment here.. but.. wuhh..? what the.. huh? How can y.. why?

Zondeel is TE/HU's primary tech to cast and TB increases it's range by a lot. With the Tech crafting coming soon, I will be sure to sacrifice the power of zondeel to increase it's range even further.

EWH is a great boost if you have a wand for each element and is one of the few skills in the techer tree that increases melee.

and lol.. why put points in wand reactor and wand lovers if you don't put a point in wand gear... the whole point of wand smacking is the fact that you get the wand explosions..

Looking at your skill trees, I can imagine your experience with TE/HU would be bad. Techs don't play much of a role for TE/HU, other then charging your gear and utility like zondeel, razan and rabarta. TE/HU's only problem are bosses, and the upcoming step attack will solve part of this problem.

I don't see much point in playing TE/FO since it is simply a worse casting class. Why would we need two casting classes anyway?

My builds aren't for Te/Hu though, they are for Te/Fo as that is the class combo that gets the best usage out of every tech needed to be a good techer. Fire techs are much more useful for charging your wand gear(notice the little thing I put down at the bottom of my post saying that some points may be incorrectly place, I would never intentionally leave Wand Gear out a build). Also, if Techs don't play that much of a role for Te/Hu why not just grab Hu/Fo and a gunslash? TECHer is meant to cast techs and attack enemies with melee.

It's nice to know that Territory Burst is useful for Zondeel, and if I were ever making a build where that tech was going to be in near constant usage I would probably put it on, however in my experience as Te/Fo I use Gifoie, Nafoie, and Foie the most for wand gear charging(and so far almost everything dies before I can hit it with my wand, though I don't have any SH experience yet).

But you didn't even get EWH, the only damage skill that stacks with Force's elements...

Fo/Fi or Fo/Br would be a lot more powerful. I know Techer has PP regen, but I wouldn't exactly call it power. You didn't even pick up Talis Tech Bonus for Sazan/Namegid cheese.

Anyway, Stina is an S-Atk req wand that has the highest total S-Atk out of all of them, with or without Wand Reactor. Plus it has Fury Stance latent.

You talk about PPC costing too many points, but then you go and max Mirage Boost. You realize very few techs actually need a maxed PPC to sustain them, right? You're mostly fine with lv3 or 6. And making a beeline for Wand Reactor isn't the best idea unless you plan on mostly melee. It's a good amount of S-Atk, but that won't boost your Wand Gear explosions, and your Te/Fo builds have zero Striking multipliers.
It isn't about power it's about getting a tree that makes techer work(and from what I have seen Techer is plenty powerful). While Stina is the best wand for Te/Hu it is one of the only wands that has an S-Atk req, it also has an extremely low amount of T-Atk as I recall.

Also, my comment about PPC was specifically for the first tree not being able to get PPC and everything else. I do not see PPC as being that much of a necessity so I don't place it on my have to get list.

Just gonna say that TB on Zondeel and double mastery Zanverse is awesome. Haters gonna hate.
What exactly was it that Zanverse did again? Meseta is so tight these days that I can't keep up with all the new techs, there are also so many that I can't keep them straight if I haven't ever used them. While Territory Burst may be useful for turning Zondeel into a very good suction machine, other than that and increasing the range for Shifta and Deband I haven't found any uses for it that would be good on paper.

[gigawuts]

Zanverse is an extra hit to a target, 20% damage base and 28.8% damage with masteries. The wind latent on the windmill also applies, allegedly anyway. If everybody is already shifta'd then zanverse is a very nice layer of damage over the top for everyone inside the radius.

[qoxolg]

My builds aren't for Te/Hu though, they are for Te/Fo as that is the class combo that gets the best usage out of every tech needed to be a good techer. Fire techs are much more useful for charging your wand gear(notice the little thing I put down at the bottom of my post saying that some points may be incorrectly place, I would never intentionally leave Wand Gear out a build). Also, if Techs don't play that much of a role for Te/Hu why not just grab Hu/Fo and a gunslash? TECHer is meant to cast techs and attack enemies with melee.

It's nice to know that Territory Burst is useful for Zondeel, and if I were ever making a build where that tech was going to be in near constant usage I would probably put it on, however in my experience as Te/Fo I use Gifoie, Nafoie, and Foie the most for wand gear charging(and so far almost everything dies before I can hit it with my wand, though I don't have any SH experience yet).


I dunno if you ever played TE/HU with a full fury build, TB > Zondeel > Wand smack 2 or 3 times to kill full groups on SH (currently hitting around 3k+1k and twice that on weak spots with each swing). In terms of solo mobbing the best class combo I've used so far.

The best tech for charging gear is Zan. One cast of this tech is enough for a full bar. This is why most melee techers have a wind build.

[Omega-z]

I Agree with qoxolg and Unlucky, I don't think you understand Techer very well. The Mechanics of Techer is Melee then Techs. Wands are the slowest in casting having higher S-atk on all except one of there weapon's. Its true that a lot of them do use T-atk to equip. but only a Female Newman can use them all without much sacrifice. But there is a good amount Def,Dex,S-atk and low T-atk wands that a straight Melee Wand wacker has that are still as powerful or more than having high T-atk to equip. them with. qoxolg is correct that Wind does the most for charging the Wand Gear, out of all the fire Techs Sa-Foie is the only one I like and is good in charging the bar but its not better then Zan. Also even tho Techer has "Tech" in its name doesn't mean it has to focus on it, That to in JP its closer to Tector like a Protector class which does fit much more closely to what it does. Techers downside is Bosses, Which would be good to allow Wands to hit most/all multi-boxes on Bosses with their Melee/Explosion's. This would fix that problem more so then a +% rate of damage. huh, Why put points into Wand Rector as a Te/Fo? It doesn't do you any good to have +18 damage in S-atk ( comparing Stina 10* to Moon 11* ) to your melee if you don't have HU % added to it. That as a Te/fo or Fo/Te you should be focusing on Rod and Talis than a Wand. There faster and much more powerful when it comes to relining on and casting Techs, that also goes for the Skill Trees too.

[Link1275]

I dunno if you ever played TE/HU with a full fury build, TB > Zondeel > Wand smack 2 or 3 times to kill full groups on SH (currently hitting around 3k+1k and twice that on weak spots with each swing). In terms of solo mobbing the best class combo I've used so far.

The best tech for charging gear is Zan. One cast of this tech is enough for a full bar. This is why most melee techers have a wind build.
That's fine and dandy for Te/Hu, but I don't honestly see what you're trying to say.
Zan is nice, but from what I have seen in my Techer play time, Gifoie is more than enough with a full fire build(and the JA tech bonus), as unless the enemies are sufficiently strong enough to survive 2-3 charged gifoies, they will be dead(unfortunately). If they are strong enough to survive the blast of 2-3 charged gifoies(te/fo with a decent mag and wand can easily have over 1k t-atk by level 30-ish), then you are already close to the enemies and they are still likely in a flinch animation from those gifoies.


I Agree with qoxolg and Unlucky, I don't think you understand Techer very well. The Mechanics of Techer is Melee then Techs. Wands are the slowest in casting having higher S-atk on all except one of there weapon's. Its true that a lot of them do use T-atk to equip. but only a Female Newman can use them all without much sacrifice. But there is a good amount Def,Dex,S-atk and low T-atk wands that a straight Melee Wand wacker has that are still as powerful or more than having high T-atk to equip. them with. qoxolg is correct that Wind does the most for charging the Wand Gear, out of all the fire Techs Sa-Foie is the only one I like and is good in charging the bar but its not better then Zan. Also even tho Techer has "Tech" in its name doesn't mean it has to focus on it, That to in JP its closer to Tector like a Protector class which does fit much more closely to what it does. Techers downside is Bosses, Which would be good to allow Wands to hit most/all multi-boxes on Bosses with their Melee/Explosion's. This would fix that problem more so then a +% rate of damage. huh, Why put points into Wand Rector as a Te/Fo? It doesn't do you any good to have +18 damage in S-atk ( comparing Stina 10* to Moon 11* ) to your melee if you don't have HU % added to it. That as a Te/fo or Fo/Te you should be focusing on Rod and Talis than a Wand. There faster and much more powerful when it comes to relining on and casting Techs, that also goes for the Skill Trees too.

If you are using only Melee or mostly melee you are playing techer wrong(and again, why not play as HU/FO if you want to that instead?), it is meant to be a combination between techs and melee(unless you can keep your wand gear filled in between every fight, it's also impractical to go melee only without wand lovers). The buff portion of techer is not something that can be relied on due to buffs' problems(was the longest time a buff could last 2 or 3 minutes?), hence techer like all other classes is best served by going full offense. There is a limited variety of skills that benefit wands currently, hence going with a lot of skills that boost techs is ultimately going to happen(EWH becomes impractical for weapons later on when you get into the high tier wands and other stuff, and for techs it is outclassed). And to be clear, I do NOT advise tech spamming as a techer with a wand(if you want to level techer for use as a sub then grab a rod or talis).

Bottom line techer is neither pure melee nor pure tech, nor should it lean heavily towards one or another. It is a hybrid between the two, it can also do buffs should sega ever implement a high enough level cap and improve buffs enough to make it worthwhile. Its skill tree designs should reflect this. It is also unlocked primarily by getting Force to 30(I know it can be unlocked with braver 30, but so can everything else). It is neither force nor hunter. Hunters boosts to S-Atk is useful, but they are only for melee. If you wanted to go te/hu I can not honestly see a techer tree that works that well at all(you're getting all your damage from hunter and your tech damage stinks); you may say that zan is more than adequate and that wind mastery is all that you need, but it is inadequate as zan is not as useful for keeping mobs under control;zondeel is meh from my experience with it, the suction usually fails and by the time you can get it activated the enemies are practically long gone(not to mention that lagging out everyone on screen and drawing all of the enemies away from where everyone else and to you is a bad idea and is an awful lot like why certain wired lance PAs are hated).

TLDR; Te/Hu doesn't focus on what techer actually does, techer has enough wand attack boosts already, and zondeel is rude, obnoxious, and not as functional as desirable(and if you're a fo, suicidal).

STLDR; Te/Fo is better than Te/Hu at just doing what Techers do, wands rock, and you should use gifoie more.

PS: Newearls can not equip every wand(I don't think any race/gender combo can, unless you want to use tree boosts in which case any race/gender might be able too) and Newms also don't have to use too many points on their mag too get 685 t-atk relatively speaking.

Also, this is what I mean when I'm talking about the problematic Te/Hu tree: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06eCbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbofb WI47bInqnGKJ7JiGA000007bHnGAbnGKfcAjr0000fbJdHSiel DcAfbs0000lb2DEFcFbncDGA000064OIk2XcKjbnbnIkIb0000 6kbdqHXidI2cFjGNI200000Ibfk2dncKsNJ2l20000

Problems with this? Simple, too much melee dependence for damage. Techer only has 95(as a newm) more S-Def than fo and it has the exact same base HP as fo. Therefore there are times where you really do not want to be right next to something(think things that can ohko you if you get caught by an attack). Zan is also not the premier attack for every situation, in fact a lot of the wind techs are limited in usage. You also have much longer charge times, than when you have full fire to back you up.

Overall, Techer plays a lot like FOmar did in PSO1. Though, there are some differences that are nice such as actually having a weapon suited to the way the class plays(in PSO1 you didn't have a weapon type with a split between damage and MST that was useful for melee).

[Omega-z]

The thing is there's not much of anything that can help Techer niche type Mechanics with force except for Techs*. Which just makes it just another Force class or a Fo/Fo class. Most who do this also play Te/Fo or Fo/Te the same just as a Force and hate anything that does with the other two but to each there own which I won't knock them for playing what they have fun with. But saying not to focus on Melee even tho thats its job to do with a Wand. Otherwise it wouldn't be made that way. I agree, " techer is neither pure melee nor pure tech. " But you need to realize that Te play is a mixture of the both. where Te/Hu, Fi, Br, Gu, Ra will be more melee or range with techs and Te/fo will be more tech focus with melee or range. Te has more going for it in close-quarters combat than distance. lol, We aren't talking about Zan's mob control we were talking about filling of the Gear bar. Which Gifoie doesn't even come close to but DPS. Te has a different play-style than pure force, which seems that you have a hard time getting into with your examples you gave. Its understandable its not your cup of tea but don't knock it and tell people they play it wrong. Techer plays like a lot of class types Hunewearl, Fomar, Wartecher, Acrotecher, Guntecher so whats your point there since Techer can be made to do anyone of those based on what you do with it. And Yes a Newearls can equip. every wand as a Te/Hu with 651 s-atk, 686 t-atk, 450 Dex and 552 s-def can use every wand that there is, no boosts.

edit: your example ST has problems anyways I don't understand what your tring to achieve here other then saying its not a DPS king.

*edit2: There is another way for Force to benfit Techer more but its taboo.

[UnLucky]

Te/Fo has deplorable melee. The only class with worse normals is Force since rods have a Striking penalty.

I'm sure I mentioned it before, but there are zero striking multipliers in that skill tree. The new Wand Lovers skill could be the first. You've got some S-Atk and Wand Gear, but it's still weaker than Hunter alone, and you don't see them killing things with only normals.

You say not to focus on either damage type, but Te/Fo is pure tech. And anything but Force as a sub has terrible techs all because of PP Charge Revival. You cannot go hybrid here unless you've got an Elysion.

[Omega-z]

^ +1.

[gigawuts]

Masteries applying to the elemental bonus on a physical weapon would help, but I don't think we want to pigeonhole techers even more.

Meh.

Wand gear needs to deal a ton more damage and then not benefit from fury stance. Also more attack PP recovery with more gear.

edit: You know what? It shouldn't be wand gear anymore, it should be tech gear. Wands and talises should share the gear. Then let it apply to special weapons like madame's umbrella too, with an explosion on impact.

[Omega-z]

^ gigawuts - That's an intriguing idea, If that did happen it would apply to Gun Slasher also making that PA/Bullet with Explosion's idea a realality awesome.

[cheapgunner]

Better idea. Turn Wand lovers into a stance, boost attack speed animation up and s-atk modifier. Give techers a skill where they generate an extra explosion or two when wand gear is 75% or more filled.

[Link1275]

The thing is there's not much of anything that can help Techer niche type Mechanics with force except for Techs*. Which just makes it just another Force class or a Fo/Fo class. Most who do this also play Te/Fo or Fo/Te the same just as a Force and hate anything that does with the other two but to each there own which I won't knock them for playing what they have fun with. But saying not to focus on Melee even tho thats its job to do with a Wand. Otherwise it wouldn't be made that way. I agree, " techer is neither pure melee nor pure tech. " But you need to realize that Te play is a mixture of the both. where Te/Hu, Fi, Br, Gu, Ra will be more melee or range with techs and Te/fo will be more tech focus with melee or range. Te has more going for it in close-quarters combat than distance. lol, We aren't talking about Zan's mob control we were talking about filling of the Gear bar. Which Gifoie doesn't even come close to but DPS. Te has a different play-style than pure force, which seems that you have a hard time getting into with your examples you gave. Its understandable its not your cup of tea but don't knock it and tell people they play it wrong. Techer plays like a lot of class types Hunewearl, Fomar, Wartecher, Acrotecher, Guntecher so whats your point there since Techer can be made to do anyone of those based on what you do with it. And Yes a Newearls can equip. every wand as a Te/Hu with 651 s-atk, 686 t-atk, 450 Dex and 552 s-def can use every wand that there is, no boosts.

edit: your example ST has problems anyways I don't understand what your tring to achieve here other then saying its not a DPS king.

*edit2: There is another way for Force to benfit Techer more but its taboo.

@Bold Wanna try running that by me again?

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06eDbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkcJfb WIN7bIn0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000lb0000 000Ib000008

Like I said, unless you use the skill tree skills.... The only other way that I can see is if you had some equipment that boosted your base stats enough.

As for the rest of what you said. Since I have high levels techs and am fairly well geared for my level range. When I play Techer(not to SH yet) I can not play on anything equal to or below my level, because I can not charge my wand gear without killing everything. I have to do things that are at least 10 levels above me to not kill everything instantly(and even then I sometimes do). And so far with my experience, yes as Te/Fo my melee attacks do somewhat pitiful damage I am hoping to see a change as my S-Atk goes up while I finish my mag. While yes Te/Hu has terrific damage for melee, it doesn't help techs at all. Now, if the popular build was Te/Fi that I could see sense in and agree with wholeheartedly. In fact I might even try that build sometime in the future as it has the potential to be OP(Wand gear's explosions mean a lot of status effects which in tandem with the chase skills means a lot of damage).

And when I'm talking about mob control, I mean the ability to keep mobs from being able to find a blind spot behind you in SH if you can't kill them fast enough(ie zan can't flinch them and takes a long time to charge, Gifoie hits everywhere around you and can be charged quickly with the right tree). Also, isn't Wand Gear's charge rate determined by hits not damage(ergo, you don't need Wind Masteries at all if the only thing you want it for is wand gear)?

I know how Pure Force plays. I got to 40 back on the 40 cap as a pure force. I also know how a techer plays. A techer gets in close and then uses a few techs followed up by some explosions to finish nuking everything. Or if they already have Wand Gear charged when the mobs come, they proceed straight to melee. A pure force stays as far away as their techs allow and then nuke everything and proceeds to get bored due to having no challenge until they get to SH. And while those aren't the only play styles, in fact the techer playstyle isn't even the mainstream playstyle yet/atm, they are the ones that their respective trees hint at.

As for your examples of other class it can be played as, I've never played HUney and I never got to play PSU or AOTI online(didn't even get to play AOTI offline). So all I can say to that is, idk anything about those classes. Though I would imagine that they would play quite differently from techer if the person playing techer didn't go to the extremes, at least for Guntecher and probably HUney(as I recall they used more support techs and melee than attack techs).

So yes. Techer is a close quarter battle mage that can both attack and use techs depending on the situation(and if the game actually realistically allowed it, support other players with buffs).


Masteries applying to the elemental bonus on a physical weapon would help, but I don't think we want to pigeonhole techers even more.

Meh.

Wand gear needs to deal a ton more damage and then not benefit from fury stance. Also more attack PP recovery with more gear.

edit: You know what? It shouldn't be wand gear anymore, it should be tech gear. Wands and talises should share the gear. Then let it apply to special weapons like madame's umbrella too, with an explosion on impact.

@Itilacized I think that with some work that could actually be very useful, except that it would mean that there would become one element that all wands must be or else it is worthless. This would cause the market to go into fits. Element changers for that element would become at least 10-20k more if not 50-100k or more higher, all wands would either drop or raise in praise. The economy for techers would be destroyed. What should happen is that the element on weapons needs to affect tech power.

@Bold Completely agree this needs to happen. This would really help to get techer to where it needs to be.

@Underlined I can't really agree as wands are the only force or techer weapons that would frequently benefit from it anyways. Using the attack on rods is well.... not worth it to put it nicely. On Talises it usually isn't done for one reason or another(such as it is all that powerful). So such a change would just be meh.

Edit:


Better idea. Turn Wand lovers into a stance, boost attack speed animation up and s-atk modifier. Give techers a skill where they generate an extra explosion or two when wand gear is 75% or more filled.

There is only one reason sega will never do this. It would make techer popular and usable for the majority.

[holmwood]

That's fine and dandy for Te/Hu, but I don't honestly see what you're trying to say.
Zan is nice, but from what I have seen in my Techer play time, Gifoie is more than enough with a full fire build(and the JA tech bonus), as unless the enemies are sufficiently strong enough to survive 2-3 charged gifoies, they will be dead(unfortunately). If they are strong enough to survive the blast of 2-3 charged gifoies(te/fo with a decent mag and wand can easily have over 1k t-atk by level 30-ish), then you are already close to the enemies and they are still likely in a flinch animation from those gifoies.



If you are using only Melee or mostly melee you are playing techer wrong(and again, why not play as HU/FO if you want to that instead?), it is meant to be a combination between techs and melee(unless you can keep your wand gear filled in between every fight, it's also impractical to go melee only without wand lovers). The buff portion of techer is not something that can be relied on due to buffs' problems(was the longest time a buff could last 2 or 3 minutes?), hence techer like all other classes is best served by going full offense. There is a limited variety of skills that benefit wands currently, hence going with a lot of skills that boost techs is ultimately going to happen(EWH becomes impractical for weapons later on when you get into the high tier wands and other stuff, and for techs it is outclassed). And to be clear, I do NOT advise tech spamming as a techer with a wand(if you want to level techer for use as a sub then grab a rod or talis).

Bottom line techer is neither pure melee nor pure tech, nor should it lean heavily towards one or another. It is a hybrid between the two, it can also do buffs should sega ever implement a high enough level cap and improve buffs enough to make it worthwhile. Its skill tree designs should reflect this. It is also unlocked primarily by getting Force to 30(I know it can be unlocked with braver 30, but so can everything else). It is neither force nor hunter. Hunters boosts to S-Atk is useful, but they are only for melee. If you wanted to go te/hu I can not honestly see a techer tree that works that well at all(you're getting all your damage from hunter and your tech damage stinks); you may say that zan is more than adequate and that wind mastery is all that you need, but it is inadequate as zan is not as useful for keeping mobs under control;zondeel is meh from my experience with it, the suction usually fails and by the time you can get it activated the enemies are practically long gone(not to mention that lagging out everyone on screen and drawing all of the enemies away from where everyone else and to you is a bad idea and is an awful lot like why certain wired lance PAs are hated).

TLDR; Te/Hu doesn't focus on what techer actually does, techer has enough wand attack boosts already, and zondeel is rude, obnoxious, and not as functional as desirable(and if you're a fo, suicidal).

STLDR; Te/Fo is better than Te/Hu at just doing what Techers do, wands rock, and you should use gifoie more.

PS: Newearls can not equip every wand(I don't think any race/gender combo can, unless you want to use tree boosts in which case any race/gender might be able too) and Newms also don't have to use too many points on their mag too get 685 t-atk relatively speaking.

Also, this is what I mean when I'm talking about the problematic Te/Hu tree: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06eCbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbofb WI47bInqnGKJ7JiGA000007bHnGAbnGKfcAjr0000fbJdHSiel DcAfbs0000lb2DEFcFbncDGA000064OIk2XcKjbnbnIkIb0000 6kbdqHXidI2cFjGNI200000Ibfk2dncKsNJ2l20000

Problems with this? Simple, too much melee dependence for damage. Techer only has 95(as a newm) more S-Def than fo and it has the exact same base HP as fo. Therefore there are times where you really do not want to be right next to something(think things that can ohko you if you get caught by an attack). Zan is also not the premier attack for every situation, in fact a lot of the wind techs are limited in usage. You also have much longer charge times, than when you have full fire to back you up.

Overall, Techer plays a lot like FOmar did in PSO1. Though, there are some differences that are nice such as actually having a weapon suited to the way the class plays(in PSO1 you didn't have a weapon type with a split between damage and MST that was useful for melee).

Eh, te/fo is better off using gunslash to regen pp and using talis for tech spam. Fo/Fi outdamages them in fire techs by alot. ... Which leaves them spamming sazan and utilizing their wand very little. It's not how the class was meant to be played! :confused:

A hybrid is better off as a te/fi where you get the damage bonus applied to both strike and tech and not just tech. The step attack would make positioning and pp regen far easier, and you get the added bonus of adrenaline and chase advance. With cast time reduction techs... yum. You won't even miss charge pp revival.

[Link1275]

Excuse me, but how much time have you put in as a Te/Fo? None? That sounds about right, unless you meant Fo/Te(which doesn't fit with this discussion or make much sense). No matter what your sub, techer will always use wands for melee. They are not a weaker inferior version of rods. They're closer to a saber that you can equip techs to(even though we don't have sabers in PSO2 yet). The point of Te/Fo isn't to be the best at casting fire techs either(btw a lightning Fo/Fi is better than a fire Fo/Fi for PP purposes). And tbh, in my time playing Te/Fo I have never used sazan on any enemy except maybe Rockbear. Step Attack is worthless last I checked for Mirage Dash. Adrenaline and Chase Advance are useful, but Adrenaline is extremely risky.

TLDR; Please. For the love of all the good that is left in this world, do your infield research before making those kinds of comments.

[Omega-z]

On the Newearl yeah redo ST's to fit the build to do so, your mag should only be 136 s-atk and 39 Dex for 175. should look like this http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06eDbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkcGlN 7bInqnGKsNdqjJiGAIb00000lbJIGAcAjJibnrA0000IbHXIdI k4SINJIdnjbn0000lbbqIkcKeAHQcD00006kbjqngAJIbpHNgK bnqn0000jGBdqoxcFdFIbibfGOI2000002BqBGFIkmxIk00008 - you can also use the S-atk on Techer and reducing the T-atk on your ST if wanted ( and put T-atk on your mag ) and change Hu ST a little also.

Ah I see, yeah Gi-foie would give better protective output than Zan. I like using Stun lock techs which can be quick charged or uncharged.

[holmwood]

Excuse me, but how much time have you put in as a Te/Fo? None? That sounds about right, unless you meant Fo/Te(which doesn't fit with this discussion or make much sense). No matter what your sub, techer will always use wands for melee. They are not a weaker inferior version of rods. They're closer to a saber that you can equip techs to(even though we don't have sabers in PSO2 yet). The point of Te/Fo isn't to be the best at casting fire techs either(btw a lightning Fo/Fi is better than a fire Fo/Fi for PP purposes). And tbh, in my time playing Te/Fo I have never used sazan on any enemy except maybe Rockbear. Step Attack is worthless last I checked for Mirage Dash. Adrenaline and Chase Advance are useful, but Adrenaline is extremely risky.

TLDR; Please. For the love of all the good that is left in this world, do your infield research before making those kinds of comments.

I ran a 53/50 Te/Fo for TAs as a wind main before switching to Te/Fi.

If you look at all the pro TA vids, people run Fo/Te with a talis/rod main and utilize Te mainly for their wind mastery and pp convert. They do not do Te/Fo tech-centered setup for reasons people have already stated, but let me restate it again:
1) wand whacks are slower than rod whacks with gear and regens the same amount per hit.
2) wand casts tech at a slower rate
3) wands have inferior t-atk damage compared to talis and rods



The fact that you use sazan for rockbear is already full of luls. You can't even get all 3 hits to land on the weakpoint because of the suction. . . .



You're the only one advocating for Te/Fo here. I'm not the only one saying it's gimp at both tech and melee...

A te/fi accomplishes everything you're looking for with superior tech and strike damage. What's wrong with it?

[UnLucky]

TLDR; Please. For the love of all the good that is left in this world, do your infield research before making those kinds of comments.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on soloing SH quests as Te/Fo.

I don't even like doing it as Fo/Fi or Fo/Br, so good luck with that.

[Omega-z]

holmwood - I don't see any slow down with Melee when Gear is added, unless your adding in the JA hits otherwise its the same as a Rod or Partisan after the update to there Melee speed. Yeah the casting speed is .3% slower compared to the other two. and yeah the other two are more powerful with % and stats.

[holmwood]

holmwood - I don't see any slow down with Melee when Gear is added, unless your adding in the JA hits otherwise its the same as a Rod or Partisan after the update to there Melee speed. Yeah the casting speed is .3% slower compared to the other two. and yeah the other two are more powerful with % and stats.

Maybe it's just my silly computer. ^^;

Graphic lag likely.

[Omega-z]

That's possible since the Explosion's can and are known to cause Lag especially when hitting multiple targets.

edit: It's pretty cool when you see it go into slow motion at times.

[UnLucky]

I know the wand didn't reach as far as a rod, did they ever change that?

[TaigaUC]

The "Sazan on Rockbear" comment sticks out like a hint that he's just trolling or satirising.

[Omega-z]

they did extend it at the same time they did the speed boost you can check it on bump the update was mid Nov. 2012 but it wasn't very far tho just a hair. I did hear that the Kamitsue Tsukuyomi had the longest reach for a wand. Longer than a Rod unsure it depends on the Rod to the Wand I suppose.

TaigaUC - Well there is a trick you can do with the Rockbear and Sa-Zan. You can stop it's flip/s with Sa-Zan when timed, Since it has a small vertical suction with it.

[Saffran]

>I'd like to hear your thoughts on soloing SH quests as Te/Fo.

I happen to be doing precisely that. It's not easy, but outside of certain bosses that take a really long time (Dominus, I'm looking at you) it's largely doable.
Everything takes time, though, generally speaking. PSO2 is, to me, absolutely not the same game as it is to you.
One simply does not hit things hard enough to dispose of them quickly, so in a weird twist, the only way to keep things flinched or in check is to zondeel them close and whack them with your wand.
The damage I do is pitiful compared to others - that's true. I don't care, but there's no denying it.

[Rakurai]

I'd gladly take a significant increase in Wand Gear's damage in exchange for the loss of its AoE explosions.

Doing only 400 damage per explosion with nearly 2K T-ATK feels really underwhelming.

[qoxolg]

The "Sazan on Rockbear" comment sticks out like a hint that he's just trolling or satirising.

My forehead is all red of all the face palming I've been doing while reading his comments in this thread.

I agree with Unlucky that playing fo/te or even fo/br in SH feels completly tedious.

[Arada]

@Rakurai: Then there is something wrong with you.
As TE/FO, my explosions are at 1500-1800 dmg. Not really good either but it's not as low.

--------

As TE/HU, my normal hits are at around 9000 and explosion is around 2300.
As TE/HU, I can one-shot most mobs in SH with my wand attacks while I need 2 techs as TE/FO.
Given that wand attacks are faster than the charging times of most techs, I know for sure that I'm more efficient as TE/HU and also more useful to the team since I Zondeel the mobs and I'm near the melee to Resta and buff when needed.

The Wand Lovers buff I welcome. As some others have said before, it should last as long as a stance.

[Sakarisei]

One question. 9000 and 2300 of explosion, hitting in weak points? or general damage to everyone?

[Arada]

These are my normal damage on level 65 Oodans. But I have sacrificed my tech damage to get there (my Rafoie deals something around 2900 dmg on those Oodans -pretty weak).

The only thing I need to figure out is how to deal with bosses faster. It will probably be with a multi-class HU weapon (and yes, the crafting system will help in that regard).

I've also tried TE/FI with very nice results. The melee part is weaker than TE/HU but still acceptable (in the 4500+3000 range for me, without Chase Advance) but tech damage is very near or higher than TE/FO.

IMO, TE/FI is the closest to what TE can be as a hybrid class. Melee is very nice, techs are good. It looses FO's PP Charge Revival but gets way better melee attacks that help regen PP without losing too much DPS.

[Sakarisei]

Mmm, that's strange. Getting a wand with 950 s-atk and 969 t-atk, i'm doing just, in the case that i'm using my TE/HU, just 4k of Normal DMG and 1k of Fire Explosion (No WB, no Weak points, although at least, using EWH). Even it, in my HU/TE, i've got the wand for supporting my party so... i'm not very worried in my Wand DPS since HU weps has got better DPS than Wand, but i would like seeing in yours, what wand you've got atm, seeing the source of that damage.

Greetings.

[gigawuts]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on soloing SH quests as Te/Fo.

I don't even like doing it as Fo/Fi or Fo/Br, so good luck with that.

I play solo a lot on both of my characters, and I actually do solo te/fo a lot as I'm very lazily trying to cap techer. I also do te/hu occasionally.

Currently, when solo, I find te/fo more well rounded. It's not PP revival that does it, or even the extra few percent damage for techs - it's the second mastery that does it.

A wind Te/Fo with fire is alright. Nafoie is a nice bit of quick burst dps, but sazan honestly covers that most of the time at half the cost with better AOE. The real benefit to fire is its element in combination with element weak hit against meaty targets. Dishing out >50% bonus weakness damage with fire because it's the right element is a big boon. But honestly, in combination with wind, the selection of techs themselves isn't not that great. There's not much synergy between the techs if the target isn't weak to fire. I find sazan and zan covers the types of hits fire does, just not necessarily the stopping power on insect darkers & many naberius natives.

What really melds together well is wind and ice. Freeze Keep is really helpful, but not a requirement. Gibarta blankets an area that sazan doesn't cover. The area is large enough that in the time it takes to cast 2 gibartas you'll kill more spread out enemies than trying to 1shot them with two zondeel + another tech would have, and it persists to hit followup spawns half the time. If you're in seabed, coast, or caves just the 1 will usually do it too. Rabarta actually becomes a viable tech to carry on your palette for more than just its freeze proc rate. Freeze becomes a very useful support SE, especially since you're solo. It's also nice in groups if the enemy is either annoying or a threat. Barta is pretty meh, but sabarta actually becomes kind of sort of decent depending on the enemy and what you're doing to them. It's a precision hit if the enemy is sitting still or can be locked down (it's nice against fordran horns since it's precise and can lock them down during their charge, for instance).

And the thing with all of this is, well, wands still hit like a truck against 2+ enemies due to the gear explosion overlap. Zondeel 2+ enemies and unleash hell. Use it on 2 enemies that aren't zondeeled but are still standing near eachother. Go nuts. Element weakness is preferred but not a requirement.

I just wish that either the explosion recovered PP, or since that would be insanely strong against groups due to the overlap hits (I mean 1 swing = full PP bar and then some), or make higher gear levels recover bonus PP on ordinary swings (+20% at 2 and +40% at 3?). Allowing PP overfilling would also be nice, like overhealing in TF2. A temporary, automatically depleting bonus layer of PP.


@Itilacized I think that with some work that could actually be very useful, except that it would mean that there would become one element that all wands must be or else it is worthless. This would cause the market to go into fits. Element changers for that element would become at least 10-20k more if not 50-100k or more higher, all wands would either drop or raise in praise. The economy for techers would be destroyed. What should happen is that the element on weapons needs to affect tech power.

@Bold Completely agree this needs to happen. This would really help to get techer to where it needs to be.

@Underlined I can't really agree as wands are the only force or techer weapons that would frequently benefit from it anyways. Using the attack on rods is well.... not worth it to put it nicely. On Talises it usually isn't done for one reason or another(such as it is all that powerful). So such a change would just be meh.

Edit:



There is only one reason sega will never do this. It would make techer popular and usable for the majority.

I disagree. Talis normals are only bad because they haven't been given the numbers. I also found gearless wand normal swings underwhelming at launch. After I found out Talises benefited from contact multipliers making talis normals a semi-viable source of damage has been something I've wanted for a long time and I find the gear to be just as viable of a solution for that as it is for wands. If they amp up wand gear to hit for 1200 damage instead of 400 (or whatever) damage and reduce the overlap damage (because that WOULD be crazy strong with zondeel - make it hit the main target for 1200 and leave secondary targets at like 300-400), and remove fury stance bonus from the explosion but leave chase bind & chase advance it could work.

Then make gear benefit from tech skills in some form (perhaps applying damage for each mastery you have, so 2 wind masteries = +44% wind damage on your gear explosion regardless of its mastery, kind of like zanverse taking x% of applied damage and dealing another hit that's pure wind damage [let's pre-nerf gear damage from above a bit, then make it so you deal 800 base damage with your fire element wand's explosion, with wind masteries you get 352 wind damage for the 44% bonus, with 5 sp in light mastery you deal 72 light damage for the 11% bonus, with 2 masteries in fire you deal another 352 fire]).

If we make TE/FO the AOE option, and TE/HU the far tankier single-target option, this could work out nicely. The fury tree would not benefit the explosion as well, but would still benefit the actual wand strike better and make it better for single-target damage.

[Link1275]

I ran a 53/50 Te/Fo for TAs as a wind main before switching to Te/Fi.

If you look at all the pro TA vids, people run Fo/Te with a talis/rod main and utilize Te mainly for their wind mastery and pp convert. They do not do Te/Fo tech-centered setup for reasons people have already stated, but let me restate it again:
1) wand whacks are slower than rod whacks with gear and regens the same amount per hit.
2) wand casts tech at a slower rate
3) wands have inferior t-atk damage compared to talis and rods



The fact that you use sazan for rockbear is already full of luls. You can't even get all 3 hits to land on the weakpoint because of the suction. . . .



You're the only one advocating for Te/Fo here. I'm not the only one saying it's gimp at both tech and melee...

A te/fi accomplishes everything you're looking for with superior tech and strike damage. What's wrong with it?

Techer isn't meant to be a constant tech spammer, ie it shouldn't have the same amount of casting speed with its main weapon, nor should it be as good for T-Atk(btw, rods have a striking penalty).


And tbh, in my time playing Te/Fo I have never used sazan on any enemy except maybe Rockbear.
I do not make it a habit to use wind techs, therefore I do not have all of their names memorized with what they do, therefore I get them mixed up. When I said this, I was thinking of the wind tech that does 3-5 attacks in an upward cyclone pattern(razan?). If this is not Sazan I therefore have never used Sazan.

As for Te/Fi, here is all that I said on the matter:

Now, if the popular build was Te/Fi that I could see sense in and agree with wholeheartedly. In fact I might even try that build sometime in the future as it has the potential to be OP(Wand gear's explosions mean a lot of status effects which in tandem with the chase skills means a lot of damage).

So please, read what I said before you say stuff that's stupid. And what I am advocating is Te/Fo over Te/Hu as Te/Hu is almost pure melee to my understanding.


I play solo a lot on both of my characters, and I actually do solo te/fo a lot as I'm very lazily trying to cap techer. I also do te/hu occasionally.

Currently, when solo, I find te/fo more well rounded. It's not PP revival that does it, or even the extra few percent damage for techs - it's the second mastery that does it.

A wind Te/Fo with fire is alright. Nafoie is a nice bit of quick burst dps, but sazan honestly covers that most of the time at half the cost with better AOE. The real benefit to fire is its element in combination with element weak hit against meaty targets. Dishing out >50% bonus weakness damage with fire because it's the right element is a big boon. But honestly, in combination with wind, the selection of techs themselves isn't not that great. There's not much synergy between the techs if the target isn't weak to fire. I find sazan and zan covers the types of hits fire does, just not necessarily the stopping power on insect darkers & many naberius natives.

What really melds together well is wind and ice. Freeze Keep is really helpful, but not a requirement. Gibarta blankets an area that sazan doesn't cover. The area is large enough that in the time it takes to cast 2 gibartas you'll kill more spread out enemies than trying to 1shot them with two zondeel + another tech would have, and it persists to hit followup spawns half the time. If you're in seabed, coast, or caves just the 1 will usually do it too. Rabarta actually becomes a viable tech to carry on your palette for more than just its freeze proc rate. Freeze becomes a very useful support SE, especially since you're solo. It's also nice in groups if the enemy is either annoying or a threat. Barta is pretty meh, but sabarta actually becomes kind of sort of decent depending on the enemy and what you're doing to them. It's a precision hit if the enemy is sitting still or can be locked down (it's nice against fordran horns since it's precise and can lock them down during their charge, for instance).

And the thing with all of this is, well, wands still hit like a truck against 2+ enemies due to the gear explosion overlap. Zondeel 2+ enemies and unleash hell. Use it on 2 enemies that aren't zondeeled but are still standing near eachother. Go nuts. Element weakness is preferred but not a requirement.

I just wish that either the explosion recovered PP, or since that would be insanely strong against groups due to the overlap hits (I mean 1 swing = full PP bar and then some), or make higher gear levels recover bonus PP on ordinary swings (+20% at 2 and +40% at 3?). Allowing PP overfilling would also be nice, like overhealing in TF2. A temporary, automatically depleting bonus layer of PP.



I disagree. Talis normals are only bad because they haven't been given the numbers. I also found gearless wand normal swings underwhelming at launch. After I found out Talises benefited from contact multipliers making talis normals a semi-viable source of damage has been something I've wanted for a long time and I find the gear to be just as viable of a solution for that as it is for wands. If they amp up wand gear to hit for 1200 damage instead of 400 (or whatever) damage and reduce the overlap damage (because that WOULD be crazy strong with zondeel - make it hit the main target for 1200 and leave secondary targets at like 300-400), and remove fury stance bonus from the explosion but leave chase bind & chase advance it could work.

Then make gear benefit from tech skills in some form (perhaps applying damage for each mastery you have, so 2 wind masteries = +44% wind damage on your gear explosion regardless of its mastery, kind of like zanverse taking x% of applied damage and dealing another hit that's pure wind damage [let's pre-nerf gear damage from above a bit, then make it so you deal 800 base damage with your fire element wand's explosion, with wind masteries you get 352 wind damage for the 44% bonus, with 5 sp in light mastery you deal 72 light damage for the 11% bonus, with 2 masteries in fire you deal another 352 fire]).

If we make TE/FO the AOE option, and TE/HU the far tankier single-target option, this could work out nicely. The fury tree would not benefit the explosion as well, but would still benefit the actual wand strike better and make it better for single-target damage.
Ice techs being useful for Techer? I want video proof, as this could mean that the most worthless techs in the game can finally get to be used for something.

As for the Tech Gear idea, I see what you're saying now. Though, I think that if implemented Talis would benefit more from something other than explosions.


I'd like to hear your thoughts on soloing SH quests as Te/Fo.

I don't even like doing it as Fo/Fi or Fo/Br, so good luck with that.

When I finally get there, I will let you know. As for now I'm just trying to grind out one of the worst grinds in the history of ever.

[gigawuts]

Video proof? Are you for real?

Ice techs have been boosted, reboosted, and re-reboosted since launch to try to get non-ice FOs to use them. Now that they're semi-decent without masteries, they're very decent with masteries. They're not for direct damage, they're for blanketing an area with some capabilities besides that. Your bread and butter is gibarta. It's as versatile as zan was when it was new.

[UnLucky]

Techer isn't meant to be a constant tech spammer, ie it shouldn't have the same amount of casting speed with its main weapon, nor should it be as good for T-Atk(btw, rods have a striking penalty).

Yeah, but that's the thing, the Striking penalty on rods has no impact on performance whatsoever. Oh no, you'll deal 400 damage instead of 500 in the extremely rare situation where you might want to melee as a Force.

The Tech penalty on wands cripples your casting potential. If Techer is supposed to use both melee and techs, why should one or the other get a penalty when you already have to split your skills and stats amongst the two types? Like imagine if wands had the same penalty as rods on melee instead of the cast time, it'd be absolutely ridiculous.

A rod or talis will do way better tech damage, even as a melee spec. Despite already having less T-Atk in favor of S-Atk, less Tech damage multipliers in favor of Striking ones, you feel like slower casting is justified because "hybrids shouldn't be as powerful as a pure class"?

[Link1275]

Video proof? Are you for real?

Ice techs have been boosted, reboosted, and re-reboosted since launch to try to get non-ice FOs to use them. Now that they're semi-decent without masteries, they're very decent with masteries. They're not for direct damage, they're for blanketing an area with some capabilities besides that. Your bread and butter is gibarta. It's as versatile as zan was when it was new.

Where is it in the patch notes that I've been missing the Ice tech updates then? Are they just so small of tweaks that Bumped.org doesn't mention them? I've only seen notices about the tree updates for Ice so far. Seriously. Where have they been hiding?!


Yeah, but that's the thing, the Striking penalty on rods has no impact on performance whatsoever. Oh no, you'll deal 400 damage instead of 500 in the extremely rare situation where you might want to melee as a Force.

The Tech penalty on wands cripples your casting potential. If Techer is supposed to use both melee and techs, why should one or the other get a penalty when you already have to split your skills and stats amongst the two types? Like imagine if wands had the same penalty as rods on melee instead of the cast time, it'd be absolutely ridiculous.

A rod or talis will do way better tech damage, even as a melee spec. Despite already having less T-Atk in favor of S-Atk, less Tech damage multipliers in favor of Striking ones, you feel like slower casting is justified because "hybrids shouldn't be as powerful as a pure class"?

If a hybrid class was just as good at doing two things as a pure class was, then why should we have pure classes? Ie, If you have a class that can use melee as well as a Fi/Hu and cast techs as well as Fo/Te or Fo/Fi then why would you use those classes? When you get a hybrid class you are taking some damage from each type of damage in exchange for lower overall damage. The goal of a hybrid class is to overcome the lower damage and use their hybrid nature to their advantage.

Also Techer has the same T-Atk as Force does. So if wands didn't have a Tech penalty then they would be only slightly less useful than a rod or talis with an equal amount of T-Atk. Which would make Force less useful over all, as .3% less casting speed is so small that the extra S-Def is quite well worth it. Sega does know how to make a class appealing I must admit, they also know how to make one unappealing(as well as how to royally screw one over).

[gigawuts]

The changes have been in the form of damage buffs at 11 and 16, plus a huge hitbox increase to gibarta. You know, the usual deal.

Also, the way to balance a hybrid class is not to make it equally as strong as two other classes abilities, nor half as strong, but to give them a third ability that neither of the other classes can perform. This would be something like territory burst or katana combat.

[Link1275]

The changes have been in the form of damage buffs at 11 and 16, plus a huge hitbox increase to gibarta. You know, the usual deal.

Also, the way to balance a hybrid class is not to make it equally as strong as two other classes abilities, nor half as strong, but to give them a third ability that neither of the other classes can perform. This would be something like territory burst or katana combat.
It's not just balance though, it's making every class relevant and not making one class or class combo more relevant than another(ie techer being just as good as force if not better in some aspects would make force irrelevant).

[gigawuts]

It's not just balance though, it's making every class relevant and not making one class or class combo more relevant than another(ie techer being just as good as force if not better in some aspects would make force irrelevant).

I've heard some wrong things in my time, but that takes the cake.

[Link1275]

I've heard some wrong things in my time, but that takes the cake.
If Techer could do everything that force could do equally as well or better, why play force?

[gigawuts]

What part of "do something else" don't you understand?

What you said was essentially "it's not about balance, it's about making sure classes are balanced." Relevance is tied directly into balance. Balance is about keeping things from being overpowered AND keeping things from being underpowered, i.e. the literal dictionary definition of the word.

[UnLucky]

Also Techer has the same T-Atk as Force does. So if wands didn't have a Tech penalty then they would be only slightly less useful than a rod or talis with an equal amount of T-Atk. Which would make Force less useful over all, as .3% less casting speed is so small that the extra S-Def is quite well worth it. Sega does know how to make a class appealing I must admit, they also know how to make one unappealing(as well as how to royally screw one over).
Techer itself does have the same base T-Atk, yes. But wands have lower T-Atk in order to have higher S-Atk. That is a good thing, since if they were exactly like rods but with better melee, there'd be no point to using a rod (other than specific latents) just as you say.

Likewise, if you affix your gear for S-Atk and have an S-Atk mag, you'll have even less total T-Atk than a Force.

This is the hybrid tax. You cannot spec for one thing without sacrificing another.

Even this can be too harsh if that's all that defines your class. You can switch between a subpar melee or a subpar caster, so no matter which role you fill at any given time, it would be to everyone's benefit to replace you with a pure class instead. Or replace two hybrids with one of each specialist.

There has to be some sort of unique benefit that a pure class would not have. Something as simple as Step Attack on a Fo/Fi, or the kind of versatility a gunslash or bow provides to an otherwise pure melee class.

What exactly do you gain by going melee as a Te/Fo or prioritizing techs as a Te/Hu? I'm saying it's a completely lopsided trade. Please excuse Omega's frequent misuse of periods and decimal points, as wands have a 20% longer casting animation. In addition to the 10% lower T-Atk on your weapon and any you would sacrifice elsewhere to improve your melee damage, your techs suffer a lot more than your melee improves.

With all the tech multipliers in the skill tree and from the technics themselves, a penalty on those larger numbers really brings down your output. However, with practically nothing multiplying your melee damage, increasing your S-Atk by the same amount that you decrease T-Atk does not drastically improve your damage.

[Sakarisei]

A rod or talis will do way better tech damage, even as a melee spec. Despite already having less T-Atk in favor of S-Atk, less Tech damage multipliers in favor of Striking ones, you feel like slower casting is justified because "hybrids shouldn't be as powerful as a pure class"?

No one is doubting than a full warrior is better than a warrior/mage in melee damage, or a full mage is better than a warrior/mage while casting magic. However, if you want variety in this game, SEGA should balance this game, not allowing combos like... RA/HU, GU/HU or FO/FI.

I'm not saying that making those combos are bad. But since RA, GU and FO are combining their skills with a striking class, they shouldn't have more advantage than RA/GU or FO/TE since Fury Stance, Brave Stance and Wise Stance have got very good stats, making it an unbalanced game which the goal is oneshotting bosses soloing, destroying completely teamwork, perhaps the most important thing of any multiplayer.

If you don't believe me, why are we seeing in most Ranged and Tech players combining their classes with HU or FI? Because they want hybrids? I doubt it, i really doubt it, and i personally don't like playing hybrids, but although i'm playing HU/TE as a PP Runner for farming bosses in party, well... i just don't want junking a class because PSO2 is not a game with many freedom... and i'm just saying my opinion, that's it.

Oh, one thing more. If FI or other Melee class that SEGA had created... had got tanky abilities, i could assure you weren't seeing me with TE sub for just Deband Protection and def stats from TE, the same than HU or FI ones...


If Techer could do everything that force could do equally as well or better, why play force?

Because FOs have got more T-ATK than TEs since they can carry Rods. Rods are better tech weapons than wands. Wands are made by combining S-ATK and T-ATK at the same time, but they can't do a better job than swords or rods, unless your goal is making many AOEs for supporting the party.

Furthermore, since FOs have got Talis Tech Bonus, that makes Wand useless as a main tech weapon. Rods or Talis dude, but Wands only for combining S-ATK and T-ATK.

And finally, since you can get Traitor Peak (A Wand allowed by HUs), HU/TE with that wand is better than TE/HU. You can get more weapon variety (HU weapons), you can deal even more damage, if you do the same build in your TE/HU, in your HU/TE, don't forgetting that you can sacrifice HU's Just Reversal for Rare Mastery HU, increasing your S-ATK in 30. Maybe you want that S-ATK instead T-ATK, unless you're more worried of casting Techs.

Oh, test this build (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06tAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkdt0f ebInqnGKsN6JiGAIb00000lb000009b000000lb000009b0000 00jkbdx5didI2HSj4OcF00000Ib000008) and say me the results. Maybe you prefer this than the others with Dark or Wind for just Namegid and Zanverse or Sazan.

PD: That build is personally the build i can recommend you, since i play with casts, and casts casting techs without a tech mag is pretty... pretty useless. However, i haven't seen necessary casting Zondeel or Zanverse, since you're ok with the wand. But eh, if i focus my SP in S-ATK Up 1 and Shifta Advance, is for general damage (Although mainly melee damage). Focusing Zanverse... well, although it adds you some additional damage, i only see useful in enemies with Wind Weakness, but not in any case. And about Zondeel, using Zondeel is good for mobbing, moving mid bosses and Dark Falz, but causing many hits in Zondeel is maybe not the best solution (Excepting in mobs).

[Link1275]

What part of "do something else" don't you understand?

What you said was essentially "it's not about balance, it's about making sure classes are balanced." Relevance is tied directly into balance. Balance is about keeping things from being overpowered AND keeping things from being underpowered, i.e. the literal dictionary definition of the word.
When making a hybrid class the goal isn't to make a new class that is unique. That is going to happen. But rather the goal is to make the original class not pointless with the new class. Which is why Techer has to have a different playstyle and incentives to use that playstyle as a techer. Techer's stats are almost the exact same as force's. The only differences are in that Techer has more S-Atk than R-Atk(if you want a gun-tech build use fo in other words) and that Techer has more S-Def and less T-Def. Overall, this would be a much more useful caster in SH.

However Sega pre-emptively stopped Techer from being able to excel at casting as well as Forces cast(albeit Techers can still use some rods including PWand and all talises just as well stat wise). Because Techer's Tech Damage with Wands is nerfed, they can't excel at pure casting as well as Forces can(Good rods that techers can use being somewhat hard to get and talises forcing techers to have Force as their sub to get the most out of them).

As much as I hate to admit it, Sega actually did something partially right with techer by creating a defining difference between it and Force. It's not about adding something new and exclusive to the hybrid class(that just makes it more lucrative if the rest is done right). It's about making it distinctly different from its base classes(hunter and force in Techer's case).


Edit(why do people post while I'm writing replies? lol):

Techer itself does have the same base T-Atk, yes. But wands have lower T-Atk in order to have higher S-Atk. That is a good thing, since if they were exactly like rods but with better melee, there'd be no point to using a rod (other than specific latents) just as you say.

Likewise, if you affix your gear for S-Atk and have an S-Atk mag, you'll have even less total T-Atk than a Force.

This is the hybrid tax. You cannot spec for one thing without sacrificing another.

Even this can be too harsh if that's all that defines your class. You can switch between a subpar melee or a subpar caster, so no matter which role you fill at any given time, it would be to everyone's benefit to replace you with a pure class instead. Or replace two hybrids with one of each specialist.

There has to be some sort of unique benefit that a pure class would not have. Something as simple as Step Attack on a Fo/Fi, or the kind of versatility a gunslash or bow provides to an otherwise pure melee class.

What exactly do you gain by going melee as a Te/Fo or prioritizing techs as a Te/Hu? I'm saying it's a completely lopsided trade. Please excuse Omega's frequent misuse of periods and decimal points, as wands have a 20% longer casting animation. In addition to the 10% lower T-Atk on your weapon and any you would sacrifice elsewhere to improve your melee damage, your techs suffer a lot more than your melee improves.

With all the tech multipliers in the skill tree and from the technics themselves, a penalty on those larger numbers really brings down your output. However, with practically nothing multiplying your melee damage, increasing your S-Atk by the same amount that you decrease T-Atk does not drastically improve your damage.

While this is all true as the highest t-atk on a rod(PWand's) is 189 higher than the best wand's(the 11 star trade one). That is the cost for hybridizing in two types of attacking. Like you said the tax of being a hybrid is that you have to spec for both or favor one. Though in techer's case you can get some nice stuff(not necessarily the best) from techer's tree for wands and techs and then use force to get some techs that are slightly more useful for more situations. Overall though, if you aren't prepared to sacrifice your overall damage numbers for more fun and a more interesting and complex playstyle, then you are looking at the hybrid business in the wrong way. Sorry to say it, but Hybrids do best when you focus on maxing both of their damage types and actually use both. Which is costly and time consuming, the end result is more fun than a pure class build though.



Because FOs have got more T-ATK than TEs since they can carry Rods. Rods are better tech weapons than wands. Wands are made by combining S-ATK and T-ATK at the same time, but they can't do a better job than swords or rods, unless your goal is making many AOEs for supporting the party.

Furthermore, since FOs have got Talis Tech Bonus, that makes Wand useless as a main tech weapon. Rods or Talis dude, but Wands only for combining S-ATK and T-ATK.

And finally, since you can get Traitor Peak (A Wand allowed by HUs), HU/TE with that wand is better than TE/HU. You can get more weapon variety (HU weapons), you can deal even more damage, if you do the same build in your TE/HU, in your HU/TE, don't forgetting that you can sacrifice HU's Just Reversal for Rare Mastery HU, increasing your S-ATK in 30. Maybe you want that S-ATK instead T-ATK, unless you're more worried of casting Techs.

Oh, test this build (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06tAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkdt0f ebInqnGKsN6JiGAIb00000lb000009b000000lb000009b0000 00jkbdx5didI2HSj4OcF00000Ib000008) and say me the results. Maybe you prefer this than the others with Dark or Wind for just Namegid and Zanverse or Sazan.

PD: That build is personally the build i can recommend you, since i play with casts, and casts casting techs without a tech mag is pretty... pretty useless. However, i haven't seen necessary casting Zondeel or Zanverse, since you're ok with the wand. But eh, if i focus my SP in S-ATK Up 1 and Shifta Advance, is for general damage (Although mainly melee damage). Focusing Zanverse... well, although it adds you some additional damage, i only see useful in enemies with Wind Weakness, but not in any case. And about Zondeel, using Zondeel is good for mobbing, moving mid bosses and Dark Falz, but causing many hits in Zondeel is maybe not the best solution (Excepting in mobs).

I highly dis-recomend that build unless you plan to mainly use hunter weapons and cast techs from your palette. It is not a build for techers, but rather for hunters that want to sub using techer to get techs without sacrificing as much damage as subbing force(as well as getting buff boosts).

[holmwood]

It's not just balance though, it's making every class relevant and not making one class or class combo more relevant than another(ie techer being just as good as force if not better in some aspects would make force irrelevant).



You can play Te/Fo if it makes it more fulfilling for you. If you prefer playing a gimpier setup because it appeals to you, then go ahead. No one's stopping you.

It'll just be like Hu/Fo and Gu/Fo, except the style of play is exactly the same as Te/Fi with far less damage.


Either way, you are totally off topic. Your accusations and circular arguments could be considered spam and maybe even trolling..

[gigawuts]

[SPOILER-BOX]When making a hybrid class the goal isn't to make a new class that is unique. That is going to happen. But rather the goal is to make the original class not pointless with the new class. Which is why Techer has to have a different playstyle and incentives to use that playstyle as a techer. Techer's stats are almost the exact same as force's. The only differences are in that Techer has more S-Atk than R-Atk(if you want a gun-tech build use fo in other words) and that Techer has more S-Def and less T-Def. Overall, this would be a much more useful caster in SH.

However Sega pre-emptively stopped Techer from being able to excel at casting as well as Forces cast(albeit Techers can still use some rods including PWand and all talises just as well stat wise). Because Techer's Tech Damage with Wands is nerfed, they can't excel at pure casting as well as Forces can(Good rods that techers can use being somewhat hard to get and talises forcing techers to have Force as their sub to get the most out of them).

As much as I hate to admit it, Sega actually did something partially right with techer by creating a defining difference between it and Force. It's not about adding something new and exclusive to the hybrid class(that just makes it more lucrative if the rest is done right). It's about making it distinctly different from its base classes(hunter and force in Techer's case).[/SPOILER-BOX]

I don't think you realize it but you're basically disagreeing with me and then rewording what I've been saying with more or less trivial differences.

Techer is supposed to be different from Force. Yes. Techer needs something it can do that Force can't. Yes. Techer needs things melee classes have, like step attack. Yes. Techer can't do everything Force or melee classes can - they also need to be unique. Yes.

I'm not sure where the disagreement you're seeing here is. It seems more like we're mostly in agreement.


[SPOILER-BOX]Techer itself does have the same base T-Atk, yes. But wands have lower T-Atk in order to have higher S-Atk. That is a good thing, since if they were exactly like rods but with better melee, there'd be no point to using a rod (other than specific latents) just as you say.

Likewise, if you affix your gear for S-Atk and have an S-Atk mag, you'll have even less total T-Atk than a Force.

This is the hybrid tax. You cannot spec for one thing without sacrificing another.

Even this can be too harsh if that's all that defines your class. You can switch between a subpar melee or a subpar caster, so no matter which role you fill at any given time, it would be to everyone's benefit to replace you with a pure class instead. Or replace two hybrids with one of each specialist.

There has to be some sort of unique benefit that a pure class would not have. Something as simple as Step Attack on a Fo/Fi, or the kind of versatility a gunslash or bow provides to an otherwise pure melee class.

What exactly do you gain by going melee as a Te/Fo or prioritizing techs as a Te/Hu? I'm saying it's a completely lopsided trade. Please excuse Omega's frequent misuse of periods and decimal points, as wands have a 20% longer casting animation. In addition to the 10% lower T-Atk on your weapon and any you would sacrifice elsewhere to improve your melee damage, your techs suffer a lot more than your melee improves.

With all the tech multipliers in the skill tree and from the technics themselves, a penalty on those larger numbers really brings down your output. However, with practically nothing multiplying your melee damage, increasing your S-Atk by the same amount that you decrease T-Atk does not drastically improve your damage.[/SPOILER-BOX]

All of this. Techer's fundamental flaw is that nothing separates it. Hybrid classes, done properly, either very cautiously skirt the line between two class types to the point that they combine the strengths of both but not to the degree that either type does so they work together to form a new class, or they're 33% two different classes and 34% their own class with much more breathing room for exact stats.

[Sakarisei]

I highly dis-recomend that build unless you plan to mainly use hunter weapons and cast techs from your palette. It is not a build for techers, but rather for hunters that want to sub using techer to get techs without sacrificing as much damage as subbing force(as well as getting buff boosts).

Firstly... how many times you cast wind and dark techs since there are not many mobs weak on those elements? You can use your SP in that Masteries, and making it will be good. However, although you can delete EWH of your build, TE without EWH... maybe is not the best solution. It's not usual in a TE/HU not getting EWH because that thing improves general damage, specially for wands which gets better benefit from it than other weapons(30% of dmg, 10% of melee attack, if the wand has got 50 element value and 20% for explosion, while other weapons, just 10%...).

Secondly, i've seen many builds with full Wind. In my opinion, unless you're using Wind Element as your main element, why focusing Wind since you only need Zan for charging Wand Gear and Sazan for knocking down enemies? if i'd prefered it, i hadn't used a TE/HU with wind. Instead, i'd prefered a FO/TE with wind Mastery since FOs' skills > TE/HU with Full Wind Mastery and Fury Combo.

And finally, maybe i must use a non-cast character with high T-ATK and a full T-ATK mag for testing your builds, in the case that i've got time and AC for it, but... since Techer is not made for offensive techs, i don't see it profitable, although i've seen many... MANY TE/HUs spamming Zan for just charging the Gear.

EDIT: Sorry, i'd forgotten deleting one SP in Shifta Advance, for getting access from Territory Burst, since i'd think that i'd included. Sorry man, forgetting Territory Burst was not my intention. Now check it (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06tAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkdt0f ebInqnGKsN6JiGAIb00000lb000009b000000lb000009b0000 00jkbdw5dfdsI2HSj4OcF00000Ib000008).

[yoshiblue]

Time to say stuff that won't matter! Techer needs a rework, that can't be said enough.

TECHER YOSHIBLUE EDITION!

~Photon Link:
Shoot out a photon whip of the element in the first PA slot and links to the target. All Tech spells done to it will do increased amounts of damage and decreases movement speeds.)
[1 link per activation] (Wand links to the player, Talis links to the area it was linked at.)
__________________________________________________ _______________
~Photon Serge
User will experience temporary buffs depending on the element used. New element buff will replace old buff.
-Fire spells: Attack Speed Increase.
-Ice spells: Increased Just Attack window.
-Lighting spells: Decreased PP usage.
-Wind spells: Increased movement and dash speed.
-Dark spells: All attacks have life steal. Life steal increased if Megiverse is used. (Life steal scales off of max HP).
-Light spells: Slow Hp regen and a free debuff remover.
__________________________________________________ ______________
~Technic Trap
Allows you to temporally make all your spells become traps. Buffed/stacks with ranger trap passives. Spells like Na Magid would require monsters to stay in the area.
(Wands increase damage, Talis increase AoE)
__________________________________________________ ______________
~Photon Leech
Similar to photon link, shoots a link onto an enemy and restores PP for as long as it lives. Linking onto an ally allows for decreased PP usage for both players. Linked player gains current Photon Serge buff.
__________________________________________________ _______________
~Tech Gear
Works the same as Wand Gear

~Tech Lovers
-Wands-
Transforms your wand into a photon weapon of your choice for a set amount of time. Shares linked weapon's PAs and does Tech damage instead.
-Talis-
Summons Six cards around you for a limited time. One attack becomes six, casting spells will make the other 5 cards shoot homing projectiles of that element to nearby foes.
__________________________________________________ _______________
~Tali Warp
When active, this allows you to warp to cards and traps when dodging.

[Link1275]

I don't think you realize it but you're basically disagreeing with me and then rewording what I've been saying with more or less trivial differences.

Techer is supposed to be different from Force. Yes. Techer needs something it can do that Force can't. Yes. Techer needs things melee classes have, like step attack. Yes. Techer can't do everything Force or melee classes can - they also need to be unique. Yes.

I'm not sure where the disagreement you're seeing here is. It seems more like we're mostly in agreement.


The disagreement come from what you first said on the subject:


Also, the way to balance a hybrid class is not to make it equally as strong as two other classes abilities, nor half as strong, but to give them a third ability that neither of the other classes can perform. This would be something like territory burst or katana combat.

Especially the bolded, while those make that class enticing, they don't make the base classes at all enticing to play. You have to change the way the hybrid is played to make it different from the base classes.

If you were to say, try to make a new class that uses techs and guns(the only hybrid that we're currently missing), then you would have to make it extremely different from from ranger, gunner, force, and techer(though techer could be useful for making the base design of how the class would play).

You would need to make at least one new weapon class, and then you would need to figure out how to blend techs and guns(or whatever else). The playstyle would likely end up being extremely weird and hard to make up(hence why sega hasn't put in such a class yet). The class would need its own gimmicks, but it would also need other things as well that differentiate it from the existing classes.

If any of that rambling about a ranged tech class makes sense..............

[gigawuts]

The disagreement come from what you first said on the subject:


Especially the bolded, while those make that class enticing, they don't make the base classes at all enticing to play. You have to change the way the hybrid is played to make it different from the base classes.

If you were to say, try to make a new class that uses techs and guns(the only hybrid that we're currently missing), then you would have to make it extremely different from from ranger, gunner, force, and techer(though techer could be useful for making the base design of how the class would play).

You would need to make at least one new weapon class, and then you would need to figure out how to blend techs and guns(or whatever else). The playstyle would likely end up being extremely weird and hard to make up(hence why sega hasn't put in such a class yet). The class would need its own gimmicks, but it would also need other things as well that differentiate it from the existing classes.

If any of that rambling about a ranged tech class makes sense..............

You do realize you keep going "No, no, you're wrong. Let me agree with you some more." right?

[AlphawingEX]

This discussion has defintely caught my attention lol. As a Techer (Te/Fi and Te/Hu) and as a Time Attacker, I just wanted to show you guys an example of a Te/Hu Time Attack and a Te/Fi Time Attack.
Wind Te/Fi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju3i1vug2Vk

Dark Te/Hu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnQN0PX9to4

I'm planning on uploading some SH Time Attacks soon, so look out for them if you liked these runs.

I'm not saying that Te/Fi or Te/Hu is the "ideal Techer", but they sure do show Techer's strengths. Repeating what people have said before, Fighter as a subclass does decent damage with wands, but excel with Tech damage. As for Hunter, it excels with wand damage, but can still pull decent damage with techs. As much as I hate to say it, Techer was MEANT to be a melee-based Force and the Hu or Fi subclass only enhances wand/tech damage. The Fo subclass only enhances tech damage with PP revival during casting. Wand Reactor's conversion won't help much if you don't have any S-Atk to begin with.

In my opinion, Te/Fo without the use of Zondeel is just a Fo/Te with a weaker "rod". There are no gains to being a Techer (using a wand) if you're not going to use Wand Gear's true potential. The more enemies you hit with Wand Gear, the more damage output there is.
Ex: In my Sanctum TA, when I pull multiple enemies together with Zondeel, they die faster.

I'm not going to tell you how to play, because your play style is up to you. On the other hand, Te/Hu (Te/Fi) are nowhere near as"useless" as you say they are.

[holmwood]

Firstly... how many times you cast wind and dark techs since there are not many mobs weak on those elements? You can use your SP in that Masteries, and making it will be good. However, although you can delete EWH of your build, TE without EWH... maybe is not the best solution. It's not usual in a TE/HU not getting EWH because that thing improves general damage, specially for wands which gets better benefit from it than other weapons(30% of dmg, 10% of melee attack, if the wand has got 50 element value and 20% for explosion, while other weapons, just 10%...).

Secondly, i've seen many builds with full Wind. In my opinion, unless you're using Wind Element as your main element, why focusing Wind since you only need Zan for charging Wand Gear and Sazan for knocking down enemies? if i'd prefered it, i hadn't used a TE/HU with wind. Instead, i'd prefered a FO/TE with wind Mastery since FOs' skills > TE/HU with Full Wind Mastery and Fury Combo.

And finally, maybe i must use a non-cast character with high T-ATK and a full T-ATK mag for testing your builds, in the case that i've got time and AC for it, but... since Techer is not made for offensive techs, i don't see it profitable, although i've seen many... MANY TE/HUs spamming Zan for just charging the Gear.

EDIT: Sorry, i'd forgotten deleting one SP in Shifta Advance, for getting access from Territory Burst, since i'd think that i'd included. Sorry man, forgetting Territory Burst was not my intention. Now check it (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06tAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkdt0f ebInqnGKsN6JiGAIb00000lb000009b000000lb000009b0000 00jkbdw5dfdsI2HSj4OcF00000Ib000008).

Wind builds make use of sazan for primary tech bursting and zanverse. We'll probably see alot more te/hu using zanverse once custom tech creation comes around.

I completely ignored elemental weakhit and mastered dark masteries for namegid . Why? I did the calculations, and it appears that even if you were going to do a full elemental weakness build (Te/Br) with the elemental latent wands, you would still do less damage than a Fo/Br (because of that damn talis passive). Ignoring EWH, the only other place to dump it in is dark mastery... namegid is boring, but it gets the job done way faster than nafoie from my experience.

I can't calculate dps though :/ , and dps is what counts in the end. Step attack may give Te/Br the upper hand. Who knows.

In the near future, I'll record TA times with Te/Fi, Te/Br, Te/Hu, and Te/ Fo to see which one works for me. But for now, everything is speculation. ^^;

[Sakarisei]

I'm planning on uploading some SH Time Attacks soon, so look out for them if you liked these runs.

Damn, your playstyle is very good. Maybe i would like getting some advices from you for my wand. I'm more focused in HU, instead TE, but eh, that doesn't mean that i would like starting a TE/HU with more caster version than the just full melee.


I'm not saying that Te/Fi or Te/Hu is the "ideal Techer", but they sure do show Techer's strengths. Repeating what people have said before, Fighter as a subclass does decent damage with wands, but excel with Tech damage. As for Hunter, it excels with wand damage, but can still pull decent damage with techs. As much as I hate to say it, Techer was MEANT to be a melee-based Force and the Hu or Fi subclass only enhances wand/tech damage. The Fo subclass only enhances tech damage with PP revival during casting. Wand Reactor's conversion won't help much if you don't have any S-Atk to begin with.

Even you've got supposedly the best TE/HU or TE/FI build, your playstyle can change depending of yours, just for yours, but well... anyone knows how playing it.


In my opinion, Te/Fo without the use of Zondeel is just a Fo/Te with a weaker "rod". There are no gains to being a Techer (using a wand) if you're not going to use Wand Gear's true potential. The more enemies you hit with Wand Gear, the more damage output there is.
Ex: In my Sanctum TA, when I pull multiple enemies together with Zondeel, they die faster.

Even you use Rylula (A rod allowed by TEs), you'll being always (or near always) the rod, instead the wand. That's good for multiclassing, but seriously, although i really appreciate that detail, for being a TE with just Rods, i most prefer playing as a FO/TE instead TE/FO.

I'm not going to tell you how to play, because your play style is up to you. On the other hand, Te/Hu (Te/Fi) are nowhere near as"useless" as you say they are.

No one is saying that TE/HU is useless. Just, in the case that you want trying overpowering FOs or HUs / FIs in tech & melee, they'll do much more damage than yours. But you've demonstrated how combining techs and melee, the most important thing. Only one thing, i don't personally recommend focusing just in one element, unless you're playing in a TA or map with many enemies weaken in Wind or Dark. But without it, at the moment there's no problems.


Wind builds make use of sazan for primary tech bursting and zanverse. We'll probably see alot more te/hu using zanverse once custom tech creation comes around.

If crafting system makes zanverse a very good choice, maybe i'll use Wind Mastery for it. But the problem of Zanverse is that although you can cast the AOE of Zanverse, you can't get always the additional effect of that tech. If we can increase additional hit of chance, i'll test in a free TE Wind Mastery. Until then... well, about Sazan, i prefer getting a good collection of wands, in the case that i'm TE/HU (Or just getting a collection of elements in the same weapon pallete) for getting the benefit from EWH.


I completely ignored elemental weakhit and mastered dark masteries for namegid . Why? I did the calculations, and it appears that even if you were going to do a full elemental weakness build (Te/Br) with the elemental latent wands, you would still do less damage than a Fo/Br (because of that damn talis passive). Ignoring EWH, the only other place to dump it in is dark mastery... namegid is boring, but it gets the job done way faster than nafoie from my experience.

Even you've got a wand with latent which increase dark element damage, it's hard getting better damage for FO. And about Talis, that depends of the fo, because not every FO uses Talis because the 20% bonus while standing the card.


I can't calculate dps though :/ , and dps is what counts in the end. In the near future, I'll record TA times with Te/Fi, Te/Br, Te/Hu, and Te/ Fo to see which one works for me. But for now, everything is speculation. ^^;

Well, it's not hard to calculating it, although of course, the best thing that you can do is testing builds and then showing in Youtube, and if you can, showing builds too. Although i've got a wand as a secondary weapon for my HU, i'm interested in increasing Wand Damage... even a TE/HU with 11* is better than mine, 10* allowed by HUs.

[Saffran]

I completely ignored elemental weakhit and mastered dark masteries for namegid . Why? I did the calculations, and it appears that even if you were going to do a full elemental weakness build (Te/Br) with the elemental latent wands, you would still do less damage than a Fo/Br (because of that damn talis passive).

EWH alone is just as much as the talis skill (20%) but I guess with EWH alone the talis comes on top due to higher base Tatk.
Factor in the 2 masteries and Te/BR is WAY ahead of Fo/Br for namegid.

Edit: Hmm, maybe not way ahead, as the Fo will have acess to T-ATK High up.

[holmwood]

EWH alone is just as much as the talis skill (20%) but I guess with EWH alone the talis comes on top due to higher base Tatk.
Factor in the 2 masteries and Te/BR is WAY ahead of Fo/Br for namegid.

Edit: Hmm, maybe not way ahead, as the Fo will have acess to T-ATK High up.

Hold on there cowboy.

Techer:
Elemental Weakhit = 1.2x
Dark Mastery 1 and 2 = 1.44x
total : 1.728x

Force:
Tech Charge+Ja Charge = 1.331x
Talis Tech = 1.2x
total: 1.5972

The difference is 8 ish percent. Fo/Br would be able to spam Namegid far more due to charge pp revival. Not to mention elemental weakhit is situational. : /


Plus, there is a rod that increases dark attack by 16%.

[Terrence]

Sorry to bother but talking about Te/Br I have a question. EWH works for melee if you have the correct element on your weapon and for Techs if you use the right element... But since Weak Stance only gives its bonus with correct elements for Techs and weak points for melee, what happens when you strike a Darker with a light wand during Weak Stance with EWH but on a spot that is NOT a weak point ? If they both add up, it could be wonderful with the new Wand Lovers...

[UnLucky]

EWH does not make Striking and Ranged damage gain Weak Stance's bonus on nonweakpoints.

[Terrence]

Said that way... LOL Well, that's crap. This would have given Te/Br a reason to be. Thanks anyway, dear UnLucky.

[Link1275]

You do realize you keep going "No, no, you're wrong. Let me agree with you some more." right?

Are you familiar with this optical illusion?:
[spoiler-box]http://www.blogcdn.com/www.switched.com/media/2008/09/facevase.jpg[/spoiler-box]
How about this one?:
[spoiler-box]http://www.blogcdn.com/www.switched.com/media/2008/09/duckrab2.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Different people see different things, some see both....

They perfectly seem to explain what is going on here. Two faces or a candlestick? Duck or Rabbit? Glass half full or half empty? The way we're wording things is different, as are the perspectives. You were saying to make the hybrid class unique by adding a new skill though. To me that sounds like you're saying "Here, let's take this class clone it, give it a new skill, and release it.", to which I responded "Let's take this class give it a new game play style and release it as a new class.". Correct?

If not, here is what it sounded like in your original post to me:
"Let's combine these two same classes into something equally good as their base elements and then go a step further and make them even better and outdate the old classes by giving them a new exclusive ability!"



I'm not saying that Te/Fi or Te/Hu is the "ideal Techer", but they sure do show Techer's strengths. Repeating what people have said before, Fighter as a subclass does decent damage with wands, but excel with Tech damage. As for Hunter, it excels with wand damage, but can still pull decent damage with techs. As much as I hate to say it, Techer was MEANT to be a melee-based Force and the Hu or Fi subclass only enhances wand/tech damage. The Fo subclass only enhances tech damage with PP revival during casting. Wand Reactor's conversion won't help much if you don't have any S-Atk to begin with.

In my opinion, Te/Fo without the use of Zondeel is just a Fo/Te with a weaker "rod". There are no gains to being a Techer (using a wand) if you're not going to use Wand Gear's true potential. The more enemies you hit with Wand Gear, the more damage output there is.
Ex: In my Sanctum TA, when I pull multiple enemies together with Zondeel, they die faster.

I'm not going to tell you how to play, because your play style is up to you. On the other hand, Te/Hu (Te/Fi) are nowhere near as"useless" as you say they are.
The thing that I'm noticing with most people though, is unless I misunderstand them, they just want to go whack things with a wand with Te/Hu and completely ignore the tech side of things. Wand Reactor adds S-Atk by the amount of T-Atk on your wand btw. So the best wand in the game atm(stat wise) has 973 T-Atk*.4=389.2 Tack that on to the 1000 S-Atk it already has on it and 1000+389.2=1389.2(and drop the decimal of course). Which gives you 1389 S-Atk on a wand. And while this will vary from wand to wand, 40% is almost half of your T-Atk added to you S-Atk and you don't lose T-Atk.

As Te/Fo I don't usually have problems getting enemies to flock around me without Zondeel, and when I attempt to use it, it seems to backfire in my face badly. This might just be because of my hardware or it may be due to my lack of Territory burst. I just have never had any use for it.

Also, in your videos I noticed that you used a LOT of techs compared to your melee. And while I often end up using a lot of techs as a Te/Fo I usually don't like to use mostly techs most of them time, I prefer to use an even mixture. Would you mind explaining your reasoning behind this method of using Techer?

Also, I only said that Te/Hu wasn't good. This is what I said about Te/Fi:

Now, if the popular build was Te/Fi that I could see sense in and agree with wholeheartedly. In fact I might even try that build sometime in the future as it has the potential to be OP(Wand gear's explosions mean a lot of status effects which in tandem with the chase skills means a lot of damage).

Do I need to put it in my sig or something? I know it was buried in a huge block of text, but still.....

[TaigaUC]

I still think Link1275 is trying to be satirical.


TaigaUC - Well there is a trick you can do with the Rockbear and Sa-Zan. You can stop it's flip/s with Sa-Zan when timed, Since it has a small vertical suction with it.

Oh? Interesting.
I remember seeing Rockbear get stuck in a tunnel once, and he just kept attempting to flip but repeatedly cancelled it.

[Great Pan]

This discussion has defintely caught my attention lol. As a Techer (Te/Fi and Te/Hu) and as a Time Attacker, I just wanted to show you guys an example of a Te/Hu Time Attack and a Te/Fi Time Attack.
Wind Te/Fi:
PSO2 ?????? VH TA Te/Fi ?? 6:02 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju3i1vug2Vk)

Dark Te/Hu:
PSO2 ???????? VH TA Te/Hu ?? 10:41 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnQN0PX9to4)

I'm planning on uploading some SH Time Attacks soon, so look out for them if you liked these runs.

I'm not saying that Te/Fi or Te/Hu is the "ideal Techer", but they sure do show Techer's strengths. Repeating what people have said before, Fighter as a subclass does decent damage with wands, but excel with Tech damage. As for Hunter, it excels with wand damage, but can still pull decent damage with techs. As much as I hate to say it, Techer was MEANT to be a melee-based Force and the Hu or Fi subclass only enhances wand/tech damage. The Fo subclass only enhances tech damage with PP revival during casting. Wand Reactor's conversion won't help much if you don't have any S-Atk to begin with.

In my opinion, Te/Fo without the use of Zondeel is just a Fo/Te with a weaker "rod". There are no gains to being a Techer (using a wand) if you're not going to use Wand Gear's true potential. The more enemies you hit with Wand Gear, the more damage output there is.
Ex: In my Sanctum TA, when I pull multiple enemies together with Zondeel, they die faster.

I'm not going to tell you how to play, because your play style is up to you. On the other hand, Te/Hu (Te/Fi) are nowhere near as"useless" as you say they are.

Off topic, what is the name of the BGM in the first video?

[UnLucky]

If not, here is what it sounded like in your original post to me:
"Let's combine these two same classes into something equally good as their base elements and then go a step further and make them even better and outdate the old classes by giving them a new exclusive ability!"
Er, no, since it's not possible for a hybrid class to match both pure classes at the same time using the same limited sources for stats and multipliers. And their skill tree isn't going to have twice as many skills as the old classes, so they won't be able to exceed either in their role as a pure class even if they completely ignored their other half.

Simply the fact that Techer is a hybrid type means that it cannot be as strong as either a Force, nor a Hunter, nor both at the same time. You can't have a 175 T-Atk mag and a 175 S-Atk mag at the same time (and switching on the fly could be disastrous for equipped weapons). You can't get Hu/Fi-level bonuses for striking at the same time as Fo/Br-level bonuses in techs. You simply do not have enough SP to get everything, even if Techer somehow had every single class's skills in its tree.

So it's inherently inferior at both aspects simply by nature of having both in the first place. That is a hybrid.

But why go hybrid if it's simply a worse version of the separate classes? Unique skills.

Pure Striking has something only it can do. Pure Tech has something only it can do. And a Strike/Tech hybrid has something only it can do.

You know, to stay relevant? And balanced?

[gigawuts]

Thank you Unlucky.

I'm good at thinking towards an end thought, not necessarily explaining it all along the way.

[Omega-z]

@AlphawingEX - Awesome job on those TA's and showing how an experienced Techer plays. +1. :)

[Terrence]

Wait... Since Wand Lovers is usable with ALL weapons and applies to ALL of them (as written in the JP-Wiki) does this mean the 35% S-ATK boost will work the same way ? With the removal of the PP penality, TEcher as a Sub-Class would give 35% S-ATK every 15 seconds with Wand Lovers, 40% PP regen with PP Restraint, Techniques, ... Interesting for S-ATK based Classes !

[gigawuts]

That's a thought.

Is it 35% base satk? 35% total satk? 35% wand satk? 35% striking damage multiplier? Or 35% contact damage multiplier?

If it's for wands I'd suspect it's the latter: 35% contact damage. This is what the higher Fury Stance multiplier and Chase Advance/Bind use.

This may well make Techer a more viable sub for hunter. With the right element and that multiplier in effect you're looking at 62% bonus damage from Techer's tree. That makes it better than brave stance fighter...or even weak stance braver. The only thing better is fighter with wise stance, chase, or slayers in effect.

[holmwood]

Wait... Since Wand Lovers is usable with ALL weapons and applies to ALL of them (as written in the JP-Wiki) does this mean the 35% S-ATK boost will work the same way ? With the removal of the PP penality, TEcher as a Sub-Class would give 35% S-ATK every 15 seconds with Wand Lovers, 40% PP regen with PP Restraint, Techniques, ... Interesting for S-ATK based Classes !

Well... can you show us where in the wiki it says that? I can't find it. :X

[Link1275]

Er, no, since it's not possible for a hybrid class to match both pure classes at the same time using the same limited sources for stats and multipliers. And their skill tree isn't going to have twice as many skills as the old classes, so they won't be able to exceed either in their role as a pure class even if they completely ignored their other half.

Simply the fact that Techer is a hybrid type means that it cannot be as strong as either a Force, nor a Hunter, nor both at the same time. You can't have a 175 T-Atk mag and a 175 S-Atk mag at the same time (and switching on the fly could be disastrous for equipped weapons). You can't get Hu/Fi-level bonuses for striking at the same time as Fo/Br-level bonuses in techs. You simply do not have enough SP to get everything, even if Techer somehow had every single class's skills in its tree.

So it's inherently inferior at both aspects simply by nature of having both in the first place. That is a hybrid.

But why go hybrid if it's simply a worse version of the separate classes? Unique skills.

Pure Striking has something only it can do. Pure Tech has something only it can do. And a Strike/Tech hybrid has something only it can do.

You know, to stay relevant? And balanced?
Thanks for explaining what Giga meant. This makes much more sense and he is correct.

Though if you combined that stats of two classes by taking the highers from each one and then made a skill tree that equally boosted all of its abilities......

[Terrence]

Well... can you show us where in the wiki it says that? I can't find it. :X
Sure... HERE (http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%83%86%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC#d5e 0717a).
"Can be activated with any weapon".
"Effects remain active even when switching weapons".

[UnLucky]

I don't have Wand Lovers to test it, but if it works like Rapid Shoot then the damage bonus is tied to the weapon, despite persisting on weapon change.

Though you can't actually activate RS without a bow equipped, so maybe WL is different.

[gigawuts]

Thanks for explaining what Giga meant. This makes much more sense and he is correct.

Though if you combined that stats of two classes by taking the highers from each one and then made a skill tree that equally boosted all of its abilities......

Well, that's where Sega falls short, and fails to do what they've actually executed very well in the past:

Hybrid classes can't have higher resulting stats, but need to have higher combined stats. For one example let's take PSO1's HUcast. It had hands down the highest POW. Compare it to the FOnewearl, which had the highest MST. The HUnewearl? Worse than both, yet not imbalanced.

Why? First, while its stats were lower, it A. had higher combined stats and B. had different weapon options.

Let's say the HUcast had 100 POW and the FOney had 100 MST. The HUnewearl wasn't 50 in both, because that would be disgustingly bad. It was more like 80 in both. While on paper this should make it strictly worse, it didn't. HUneys had higher level techs than HUmars did - capped at 20, instead of 15. The HUney also had access to unique weapons that neither of the other classes did, such as a TP-free gifoie for instance, or Flowen's Sword which had a TP-sacrificing special whereas the HUcast had to rely on HP-sacrificing specials for similar results. The weapon selection is also partially just the nature of the class - for instance, while the HUcast was the heaviest hitting sword class in the game, it was also the only class in the game that couldn't equip a single rifle-range weapon. Another part of the class nature going on here was HUnewearls being able to buff their own stats to be above a HUcast's, plus heal on the fly with resta, making them one of the best solo classes, but that's a bit besides the point.

PSO1, at least as of the GC version, was pretty well refined in that regard. Classes didn't have to adhere to this irritating template system that PSO2 abides by like some terrible amateurish abortion of a game. It did have a very rough outline it followed (tech hybrids had level 20 techs [RAmarl and HUnewearl plus all support techs], casts had traps while meatbags had techs, etc.) but they were very rough and treated as guidelines more than anything. Each class was treated on an individual basis, as they should be.

Even with all of that aside, what's ultimately wrong with PSO2's system is the way skills only apply damage to specific types or groups of attacks, and how lopsided they are by nature of forcing classes to have about the same number of skills and have the same amounts of bonuses. The primary/secondary/tertiary atk stat & primary defense stat system is less important now.

Gunner needs a real damage bonus skill. An actually versatile one, not another Zero Range Advance - it needs JA Bonus. Fighter needs something like that too. Techer needs Tech JA Advance, badly. Force needs damage skills that aren't buried deeply in element trees. Braver needs a second Average Stance Up instead of Average Stance Charge. All of these conditional skills are terrible because you can just sub Hunter instead and get a higher bonus for it. Hunter, which gets most of its new damage multiplier skills immediately beneath another damage multiplier skill, while for the most part other classes bury them beneath stat ups and defensive skills.

We need more skills like Stylish Roll JA, except less dumb and less powerful. Stylish Roll JA was Sega's attempt at giving gunner JA Bonus without actually giving it JA Bonus, when in reality they should have just fucking given it JA Bonus.

tl;dr

Sega needs to play its own fucking games they're tripping over problems they solved over a decade ago.

[Sgt. Sharina Wize]

Off topic, what is the name of the BGM in the first video?

Off topic
That BGM in the first video is from FFXIII-2. it's called "Paradigm Shift" and it's one my favorite music's from the game as will.

[AlphawingEX]

Also, in your videos I noticed that you used a LOT of techs compared to your melee. Would you mind explaining your reasoning behind this method of using Techer?

As you can see, the only time I use techs is to fill wand gear and when fighting bosses. Although useful, Wand Gear was NOT meant for bosses (or singular targets for that matter) and shouldn't be forced to. Even if Te/Hu has the worst tech DPS between Te/Fi, Te/Br and Te/Fo, I still do way more damage with Namegid than smacking Vol Dragon or Quartz with my wand. And the only time I do use my wand during boss fights is to replenish my PP while doing consistent, yet decent damage.

Like I said before, Techer was meant to be a melee-based Force. Techer's play style (well, at least what I think) is to completely drain your PP, and quickly replenish it with Wand/Wand Gear.

Techers were also somewhat designed for mob control. Techers that used Zondeel and Wand Gear together took care of mobs that Fighters/Gunners would have trouble otherwise. (not many AoE PAs besides AB). The reward for killing multiple enemies in a few strikes: full PP and a happy party.

All in all, I think the point I'm trying to make is that Techer's true potential lies in Wands/Wand Gear and Wand Gear's true potential lies in mobs of enemies. Although techs can do the same job, Zondeel + Wand Gear gets the job done faster and you get PP too.


@AlphawingEX - Awesome job on those TA's and showing how an experienced Techer plays. +1. :)

Thanks, I really appreciate it. :)


Off topic, what is the name of the BGM in the first video?

Glad you liked it. :3 Paradigm Shift- Final Fantasy XIII-2


In midst of talking about Techer's play style, I still haven't put my feedback on Wand Lovers' buff lol. I'm glad that SEGA is finally starting to show some love (I crack myself up) to Techers, but it's still not enough. +35% S-atk, Step-attack, and no PP penalty is great and all, but it's still trivial to the other classes' abilities/skills with how short it lasts.

What would make it (and the class in general) better?: I don't know, a JA bonus? SEGA seems to add that to most of the others classes but Techer. Heck, why don't you add a Wand PA? You're already adding Step-attack to wands, why don't we go one step further and make it an actual melee weapon? And what about Wand Gear? It's the only Gear in the game to NOT gain damage/range the higher the gear is. That's absurd. When the gear is max (or when Wand Lovers is activated) Wand Gear should be doing 3x or 4x the damage it normally does, or it should hit multiple targets on one enemy. Sorry for the rant, but it's such a simple solution that SEGA seems to overlook every time when revamping other classes.

[holmwood]

Sure... HERE (http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%83%86%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC#d5e 0717a).
"Can be activated with any weapon".
"Effects remain active even when switching weapons".

This? 次回アップデートの調整で、「PP0固定の廃止」「効果中回避アクションがステップになる」「打撃倍率上昇 効果」といった調整が予定されている。
もはや調整どころか同名の別スキルといって差し支えないものに変貌する模様。
It just says pp reduction is canceled, step attack is added, and strike attack increase attribute is added and that it's like an entirely new skill with the same name.
It doesn't say anything about it applying to all weapon classes. :(


If it did, that'd be pretty cool. Te/Hu can actually use overend without feeling too underwhelming, and rindou spam with pp convert wouldn't sacrifice too much damage... Sounds pretty OP. :O

Does the 0 pp effect of wand lovers remain even if you switch weapons? That's one indicator. I can't remember because I never use it, lol.

[UnLucky]

Gunner needs a real damage bonus skill. An actually versatile one, not another Zero Range Advance - it needs JA Bonus. Fighter needs something like that too. Techer needs Tech JA Advance, badly. Force needs damage skills that aren't buried deeply in element trees. Braver needs a second Average Stance Up instead of Average Stance Charge. All of these conditional skills are terrible because you can just sub Hunter instead and get a higher bonus for it. Hunter, which gets most of its new damage multiplier skills immediately beneath another damage multiplier skill, while for the most part other classes bury them beneath stat ups and defensive skills.

We need more skills like Stylish Roll JA, except less dumb and less powerful. Stylish Roll JA was Sega's attempt at giving gunner JA Bonus without actually giving it JA Bonus, when in reality they should have just fucking given it JA Bonus.
Fighter needs JA Bonus instead of S-Atk Up 2&3 and Slayer skills need to be percentages (15-20% each), Ranger/Gunner skills need to affect Striking damage for all those stupid kicking PAs on AR/TMG/BB, Force/Techer need fewer masteries and more general tech boosts, Techer needs S&T JA Bonus, EWH buffed, and reduced required SP in SE Boost skills.


And what about Wand Gear? It's the only Gear in the game to NOT gain damage/range the higher the gear is. That's absurd. When the gear is max (or when Wand Lovers is activated) Wand Gear should be doing 3x or 4x the damage it normally does, or it should hit multiple targets on one enemy. Sorry for the rant, but it's such a simple solution that SEGA seems to overlook every time when revamping other classes.
Does DS Gear? I know they patched in progressive bonuses for Hunter weapons, but I'm not sure about Fighter. In any case WG definitely needs something more.


This? 次回アップデートの調整で、「PP0固定の廃止」「効果中回避アクションがステップになる」「打撃倍率上昇 効果」といった調整が予定されている。
もはや調整どころか同名の別スキルといって差し支えないものに変貌する模様。
It just says pp reduction is canceled, step attack is added, and strike attack increase attribute is added and that it's like an entirely new skill with the same name.
It doesn't say anything about it applying to all weapon classes. :(
ウォンド以外の武器を持った状態でも発動できる。
"Can be activated with weapons other than wand."

武器を切り替えても効果は持続する。
"Effect persists even if you switch weapons."

[Link1275]

Well, that's where Sega falls short, and fails to do what they've actually executed very well in the past:

Hybrid classes can't have higher resulting stats, but need to have higher combined stats. For one example let's take PSO1's HUcast. It had hands down the highest POW. Compare it to the FOnewearl, which had the highest MST. The HUnewearl? Worse than both, yet not imbalanced.

Why? First, while its stats were lower, it A. had higher combined stats and B. had different weapon options.

Let's say the HUcast had 100 POW and the FOney had 100 MST. The HUnewearl wasn't 50 in both, because that would be disgustingly bad. It was more like 80 in both. While on paper this should make it strictly worse, it didn't. HUneys had higher level techs than HUmars did - capped at 20, instead of 15. The HUney also had access to unique weapons that neither of the other classes did, such as a TP-free gifoie for instance, or Flowen's Sword which had a TP-sacrificing special whereas the HUcast had to rely on HP-sacrificing specials for similar results. The weapon selection is also partially just the nature of the class - for instance, while the HUcast was the heaviest hitting sword class in the game, it was also the only class in the game that couldn't equip a single rifle-range weapon. Another part of the class nature going on here was HUnewearls being able to buff their own stats to be above a HUcast's, plus heal on the fly with resta, making them one of the best solo classes, but that's a bit besides the point.

PSO1, at least as of the GC version, was pretty well refined in that regard. Classes didn't have to adhere to this irritating template system that PSO2 abides by like some terrible amateurish abortion of a game. It did have a very rough outline it followed (tech hybrids had level 20 techs [RAmarl and HUnewearl plus all support techs], casts had traps while meatbags had techs, etc.) but they were very rough and treated as guidelines more than anything. Each class was treated on an individual basis, as they should be.

Even with all of that aside, what's ultimately wrong with PSO2's system is the way skills only apply damage to specific types or groups of attacks, and how lopsided they are by nature of forcing classes to have about the same number of skills and have the same amounts of bonuses. The primary/secondary/tertiary atk stat & primary defense stat system is less important now.

Gunner needs a real damage bonus skill. An actually versatile one, not another Zero Range Advance - it needs JA Bonus. Fighter needs something like that too. Techer needs Tech JA Advance, badly. Force needs damage skills that aren't buried deeply in element trees. Braver needs a second Average Stance Up instead of Average Stance Charge. All of these conditional skills are terrible because you can just sub Hunter instead and get a higher bonus for it. Hunter, which gets most of its new damage multiplier skills immediately beneath another damage multiplier skill, while for the most part other classes bury them beneath stat ups and defensive skills.

We need more skills like Stylish Roll JA, except less dumb and less powerful. Stylish Roll JA was Sega's attempt at giving gunner JA Bonus without actually giving it JA Bonus, when in reality they should have just fucking given it JA Bonus.

tl;dr

Sega needs to play its own fucking games they're tripping over problems they solved over a decade ago.

While I don't disagree with what you said, I have to add that the problem started in PSOBB. Sonic Team ceased to be the same somewhere in the period when BB was the PS game to be playing. And it's only gotten worse with each successive iteration afterwards where ST wasn't put on a leash by an outside developer.

For example, the Portable games were great. PSU stunk.


As you can see, the only time I use techs is to fill wand gear and when fighting bosses. Although useful, Wand Gear was NOT meant for bosses (or singular targets for that matter) and shouldn't be forced to. Even if Te/Hu has the worst tech DPS between Te/Fi, Te/Br and Te/Fo, I still do way more damage with Namegid than smacking Vol Dragon or Quartz with my wand. And the only time I do use my wand during boss fights is to replenish my PP while doing consistent, yet decent damage.

Like I said before, Techer was meant to be a melee-based Force. Techer's play style (well, at least what I think) is to completely drain your PP, and quickly replenish it with Wand/Wand Gear.

Techers were also somewhat designed for mob control. Techers that used Zondeel and Wand Gear together took care of mobs that Fighters/Gunners would have trouble otherwise. (not many AoE PAs besides AB). The reward for killing multiple enemies in a few strikes: full PP and a happy party.

All in all, I think the point I'm trying to make is that Techer's true potential lies in Wands/Wand Gear and Wand Gear's true potential lies in mobs of enemies. Although techs can do the same job, Zondeel + Wand Gear gets the job done faster and you get PP too.

What would make it (and the class in general) better?: I don't know, a JA bonus? SEGA seems to add that to most of the others classes but Techer. Heck, why don't you add a Wand PA? You're already adding Step-attack to wands, why don't we go one step further and make it an actual melee weapon? And what about Wand Gear? It's the only Gear in the game to NOT gain damage/range the higher the gear is. That's absurd. When the gear is max (or when Wand Lovers is activated) Wand Gear should be doing 3x or 4x the damage it normally does, or it should hit multiple targets on one enemy. Sorry for the rant, but it's such a simple solution that SEGA seems to overlook every time when revamping other classes.
Enough said at bolded. It just didn't look like you were using wand attacks all that often with the small embedded screen.

And I have to agree with mob control. That is a dual edged sword though when it comes to code protects and things like the cake sisters(which annoys techers and makes them fail codes on accident). Though I disagree with killing everything making the party happy. If you don't let other people actually kill stuff, then they are going to be bored, miserable because they want to do something, feel like they're leaching, and/or if they're completely lazy and don't want to swing their own sword or shoot their own gun they'll love it. Tbh though, I think a lot more people are going to get fed up with you killing everything after a while though.

As for Techer improvements, I think that the class needs very few more improvements at this point as too many more and it will finally have enough power for people to think of it as OP and cry "Techer OP plox nerf". Which I really don't want to see, as I like that it's an OP class(or at least it is early on if you're using it right).

[Omega-z]

hmm....If WL still allows you to do the weapon swap it won't be off your wand's S-atk at all. Most likely the +35% will be off the full S-atk maybe. So if you had 3K then this would give you another 1050 S-atk more for 30 secs. with a 15 sec. cool down. which you can use your PA's during it....hmm. That would be pretty cool with Hu, FI, Br then.

[gigawuts]

Fighter needs JA Bonus instead of S-Atk Up 2&3 and Slayer skills need to be percentages (15-20% each), Ranger/Gunner skills need to affect Striking damage for all those stupid kicking PAs on AR/TMG/BB, Force/Techer need fewer masteries and more general tech boosts, Techer needs S&T JA Bonus, EWH buffed, and reduced required SP in SE Boost skills.


Does DS Gear? I know they patched in progressive bonuses for Hunter weapons, but I'm not sure about Fighter. In any case WG definitely needs something more.


ウォンド以外の武器を持った状態でも発動できる。
"Can be activated with weapons other than wand."

武器を切り替えても効果は持続する。
"Effect persists even if you switch weapons."

I was thinking about a Force Mastery skill, for fire, ice, and bolt techs. It'd stand in for the second mastery. Add one for Techer as well. They need their trees completely torn up and reworked from the foundation, though. Honestly, Braver is the only tree I find semi-decent right now. Why? Because it's the only class where you can pick any stance, any ability, and any gear (all one of them) without having to dig into any other stance, ability, or gear. You want katana gear and weak stance? Done. Katana combat and average stance without even 1 sp in weak stance? Done. No combat, but still average stance? Done. No katanas at all, but gear and rapid shoot? Done!

Make the other classes like that. Defensive passives, offensive passives, fury stance, guard stance, and gears should all be accessibly entirely independently on HU. What if I want to do slayer and brave on fighter while keeping wise & stat ups at 0? Am I just SOL? Yes, but I shouldn't be.

If Techer's tree was more like Braver's a small number of its problems would disappear. Not all of them, but a couple that can't be fixed any other way. I'm just eagerly awaiting they "fix" for Super Treatment to need 1 SP in Light Mastery 2, because going 11 SP off the beaten path is so much better than 13 SP rite? Meanwhile they're turning the wind branch into a wannabe Fury tree, putting everything right up next to eachother and making most other things too costly to want to bother since the class depends so much on what's in the wind tree.

edit: Also, they should put Step Attack beneath SATK Up 1 on the techer tree. Seriously. I wanna step attack as a te/fo. I don't care if you all think that's bad and it makes me literally Hitler. I want it.

[holmwood]

Fighter needs JA Bonus instead of S-Atk Up 2&3 and Slayer skills need to be percentages (15-20% each), Ranger/Gunner skills need to affect Striking damage for all those stupid kicking PAs on AR/TMG/BB, Force/Techer need fewer masteries and more general tech boosts, Techer needs S&T JA Bonus, EWH buffed, and reduced required SP in SE Boost skills.


Does DS Gear? I know they patched in progressive bonuses for Hunter weapons, but I'm not sure about Fighter. In any case WG definitely needs something more.


ウォンド以外の武器を持った状態でも発動できる。
"Can be activated with weapons other than wand."

武器を切り替えても効果は持続する。
"Effect persists even if you switch weapons."

Thaaaank you. @_@

Goodness, I hope they go forward with it being an all class buff. I might start playing pso2 again. :O


I wanna step attack as a te/fo. I don't care if you all think that's bad and it makes me literally Hitler. I want it.
I'm thinking Te/Fo will have the pp regen advantage. Since wand strikes are going to suck butt, might as well switch to a pumpkin wand (30% pp regen per attack) when you need pp and quickly switch back to main wand/rod (with elemental latents). Tech damage may be lame compared to other setups, but dps?
I obviously have the higher pp cost/increased damage- custom techs in mind to justify the increased pp regen rate.

Could be better than Fo/Br. Who knows. : / You'll play like a caster, but it'll be way more fun than gunslash.

[Zorafim]

I think all classes should benefit all classes as a subclass. It needs to be more interesting than what we have now, though. "Increases all damage by 40%" isn't really all that interesting.

[holmwood]

I think all classes should benefit all classes as a subclass. It needs to be more interesting than what we have now, though. "Increases all damage by 40%" isn't really all that interesting.

I like the idea of certain stances granting different animation/attack-pattern changes like wand lovers. Like maybe if fury stance adds an extra combo to attacks, or brave stance grants you increased dash ability.

But then again, that may not benefit all classes.

[UnLucky]

Though I disagree with killing everything making the party happy. If you don't let other people actually kill stuff, then they are going to be bored, miserable because they want to do something, feel like they're leaching, and/or if they're completely lazy and don't want to swing their own sword or shoot their own gun they'll love it. Tbh though, I think a lot more people are going to get fed up with you killing everything after a while though.

I wish. It's more like Zondee-*oneshot by PA*

I was thinking about a Force Mastery skill, for fire, ice, and bolt techs. It'd stand in for the second mastery. Add one for Techer as well.
Fo/Te still wouldn't have much that benefits the other class's elements. 33% general tech and 20% for talis from Force, and 20% EWH from Techer. Every other class gives more weapon nonspecific bonuses than that, even Gunner and Braver.


If Techer's tree was more like Braver's a small number of its problems would disappear. Not all of them, but a couple that can't be fixed any other way. I'm just eagerly awaiting they "fix" for Super Treatment to need 1 SP in Light Mastery 2, because going 11 SP off the beaten path is so much better than 13 SP rite? Meanwhile they're turning the wind branch into a wannabe Fury tree, putting everything right up next to eachother and making most other things too costly to want to bother since the class depends so much on what's in the wind tree.
Techer and Gunner have the most useless prereqs between useful skills... Fighter is close just for PP Slayer, but the skill isn't even that good.

They need to be removed or reduced to 1 across the board. All stat and SE skills should essentially be removed. Unless stats scaled and SE was a flat bonus, but even still the prereqs need to be toned down.

It costs 25 SP just to grab EWH for a melee spec. Kill Resta Advance at least.


edit: Also, they should put Step Attack beneath SATK Up 1 on the techer tree. Seriously. I wanna step attack as a te/fo. I don't care if you all think that's bad and it makes me literally Hitler. I want it.
Why not just below Just Reversal? Or hell, make it ME Attack so you have something while WL is down.


I think all classes should benefit all classes as a subclass. It needs to be more interesting than what we have now, though. "Increases all damage by 40%" isn't really all that interesting.
What's so bad about 25% damage to weak points? 15% damage while stationary, 15% damage at close range, 15% damage to ailing targets, etc.

[holmwood]

What's so bad about 25% damage to weak points? 15% damage while stationary, 15% damage at close range, 15% damage to ailing targets, etc.
Sigh... sega. ^^;

[jcart953]

As for Techer improvements, I think that the class needs very few more improvements at this point as too many more and it will finally have enough power for people to think of it as OP and cry "Techer OP plox nerf". Which I really don't want to see, as I like that it's an OP class(or at least it is early on if you're using it right).

Lol I highly doubt this day will come anytime soon for people to be saying that. However if and when that does happen I will LOL so hard.

[UnLucky]

Techer would have to get like a 200% boost to all damage without conditions for it to be OP.

You know, like Hunter.

[GALEFORCE]

Fix shifta pls

[Link1275]

Lol I highly doubt this day will come anytime soon for people to be saying that. However if and when that does happen I will LOL so hard.


Techer would have to get like a 200% boost to all damage without conditions for it to be OP.

You know, like Hunter.

But, but, but, but Techer can butcher everything before its gear gauge is filled.....

Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju3i1vug2Vk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnQN0PX9to4

[UnLucky]

in VH TA a Fo/Hu can oneshot mobs with Assault Buster

[martinmeegan]

I'm confused. A lot of posters in this thread are the same ones who perpetually claim that this game is too easy.............yet you want to make it easier? Surely nerfing all classes that you feel are OP would make more sense to you than buffing Techer?:confused:

[Sakarisei]

If it did, that'd be pretty cool. Te/Hu can actually use overend without feeling too underwhelming, and rindou spam with pp convert wouldn't sacrifice too much damage... Sounds pretty OP. :O

You can try it, but that's not compatible. I'd tried getting a viable build for getting EWH, PP convert and Wand Reactor, and although you can play with the maxed versions of those skills, you're extremely limited. PP Convert lv 10 with PP Restorate lv 5 sucks. Unless you want ignoring Wand Reactor for more lvls in Wand, that won't help you. Furthermore, you can't synchronize easily since you'll lose about 1-2 seconds while using many... MANY skills.

In other words, if we had got about 5-10 SP more, maybe that combo would be viable. However, until then, forget about it.

if you don't believe me, check this build (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000j4Odq5didI2H S4QHN4NI200000Ib000008) and said me if you want anything like this. I've got experience in te as a sub for melee class, and... the two viable ways that you've got are... PP Runner (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000j4OdqIdIkIdI 2J24QHNIb00000ib000008) (If you don't want PP Up 1, you can try that one (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000j4OdxldI2J24 QHNIb00000ib000008) too) and Wand Reactor Helper (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000j4Odx5dfdsI2 HSj4OcF00000Ib000008), using that last one for compensating partially S-ATK Up lose because TE sub.


Techer would have to get like a 200% boost to all damage without conditions for it to be OP.

You know, like Hunter.

It would be interesting, but nothing funny...

If every class subs a melee for actually getting top dps on their classes, i wouldn't like playing a PSO2 which the only viable way for full DPS is getting TE sub, destroying many builds. Furthermore, TE sub gives you Resta and Anti, and those techs can make mates and shiftarides & debanrides useless, although i think that shiftarides & debanrides shouldn't exist in this game since this item destroy completely support role in this game.

And finally, maybe you can still playing HU/FI, FI/HU, RA/GU or GU/RA for more weapon variety (If you're lucky on getting good multiclass weapons), but it will destroy completely the game.

[GALEFORCE]

Doesn't wand reactor only work with wands? I don't see why you would use it as a te sub.

But again, all techer and force need to be balanced is a stronger shifta. It would create a demand for them, as well as boost their offensive capability solo. The main reason HUnewearl wasn't outclassed by HUcast was s/d, and it can be that way again if SEGA pulls their heads out of their butts. You can even keep the dumb pulse system. It provides a "balance" by making it tedious to keep your damage boosts running, and limiting its impact on party members and MPAs.

[Gama]

wand reactor could get a boost, giving a percentage of the T ark on any weapon to S atk, making the FI weapons viable...

[Xaelouse]

Why do you guys want TE to continue to be subclass-tier still...

[GALEFORCE]

Hunter doesn't seem to mind it much. I'd rather it be subclass tier than useless/bad tier.

[Saffran]

>What's so bad about 25% damage to weak points?
>15% damage while stationary, 15% damage at close range, 15% damage to ailing targets, etc.

Those are niche damage bonuses, which makes them OK - they serve to enhance a certain playstyle.
40% more across the board is simply "more". That's part of what makes Hunter such a shitty subclass. It gives more everywhere, which makes it both boring and "mandatory" (because if you sacrifice precious dps you're a fool and you're wasting everybody's time - which is why I only play solo)
That's also the reason people both love and hate Weak Bullet.

[Coatl]

40% more across the board is simply "more". That's part of what makes Hunter such a shitty subclass. It gives more everywhere, which makes it both boring and "mandatory" (because if you sacrifice precious dps you're a fool and you're wasting everybody's time - which is why I only play solo)
That's also the reason people both love and hate Weak Bullet.

I have to agree. Hunter is the best sub class simply because it has the crappiest and most boring skill tree in the game.

ZRA, Standing snipe, weak hit advance, elemental weak hit, deadline slayer, they all are suppose to adhere you to a certain playstyle that the class is going for. But hunter just gives you a 200% damage multiplier just for pretty much tapping the fury stance key. :I

I'd like for them to make more multipliers working for different types of damages (standing snipe working for r-dmg and t-dmg for example or ZRA working for all types of dmg). They could also just buff a lot of the more conditional multipliers, like chase advance or deadline slayer.

[gigawuts]

>What's so bad about 25% damage to weak points?
>15% damage while stationary, 15% damage at close range, 15% damage to ailing targets, etc.

Those are niche damage bonuses, which makes them OK - they serve to enhance a certain playstyle.
40% more across the board is simply "more". That's part of what makes Hunter such a shitty subclass. It gives more everywhere, which makes it both boring and "mandatory" (because if you sacrifice precious dps you're a fool and you're wasting everybody's time - which is why I only play solo)
That's also the reason people both love and hate Weak Bullet.

I did a bit of a long post a while ago (even long for me - that's saying something) going into this.

Basically, my point with it was:
Classes should hover around 40-50% with their own versatile core damage multipliers. Think JA Bonus and WHA. These are for themselves and for subbing. These should apply to all damage types, or at least two types.
Classes should then have situational, playstyle-enhancing damage multipliers for about 30% damage. Think ZRA and Standing Snipe. These should also apply to at least two damage types.

The core multipliers should be exactly that - at the core of the tree. They're your plain jane level-up-and-get-damage-for-it skills. Stat gains don't really fulfill that role, and maybe players should be able to opt out of this level-up-and-get-damage-for-it skill to fill in anther. Maybe space them a bit so you don't pool into them immediately. Where you tend to find atk ups and existing core multipliers is where you'd find core multipliers on other classes.

The situational multipliers should be at the ends of trees, like standing snipe or perfect keeper are now, but not directly in line with core multipliers like in the Fury tree. Get rid of perfect keeper btw, that skill is a terrible idea so long as the guld milla can't be bought at a reasonable price. Each class should have multiple sets of core multipliers - maybe ranger gets standing snipe and walking snipe, maybe hunter gets

What goes between core multipliers and situational multipliers? Each class should have a take on different self-support skills. For example...

Every class needs PP. Techer gets passive PP recovery (which is mostly for subbing, but ok). Gunner gets active PP recovery. Force gets PP revival. Fighter gets the mediocre Crazy Heart (it also just has crazy high PP recovery on dubs). Ranger gets Killing Bonus. Braver has a skill to recover PP when it inflicts a crit in the files. Hunter? Hunter needs something for this role. Instead it gets more damage.

There are other basic niches to bring up here, like mobility, group buffs, self-buffs, etc. So yes, skilltrees should adhere to a basic framework (universal damage, situational damage, PP, group buff, self buff), but Sega has chosen the entirely wrong kind of framework to adhere to.

[MidCap]

The fact that THIS MUCH EFFORT (see the previous pages) has to be made for Techer to be deemed somewhat viable shows just how terrible the class is, especially when considering the self-evident usefulness of every other class.

Techer is simply the worst class in the game.

How to fix it?

Fundamentally change the animation of the Wand so it has way better range, and boost EWH Lv. 10 to 30% or 40%. Problem solved.

Techer is awful. This is the Ice Tree all over again.

[Link1275]

Ehhh, No. EWH isn't useful even though it works for wands, because it isn't practical to use it in endgame. While yes that would certainly make it extremely useful for techs, you could still likely do more damage with a generic specialist build for a couple of techs.

Also, the wand animation is fine. Though it could be sped up, it doesn't need it that badly if you know how to use it.

What Techer NEEDS, is to have the deband and shifta related skills removed from where they are and put elsewhere on the tree(ie, put them where they won't be missed and no one will have to ever touch them again). Then give Techer some actually good damage modifiers. Stop burying new skills in the wind tree, actually redesign the tree. At this point a tree redesign is almost inevitable.


If you want EWH to be a must have, you're going to need at least 50% or more(I can get 41% from two masteries alone...). Then you need to fix the economy(so that people can actually buy the wands that they can't get in the elements they need). That means making it so that free players have the ability to sell either up to 9* items or the ability to sell up to so many items per day. Then you need to remove the 10* trading limits, completely. Get rid of binding while we're at it, or at least add an item that can be used to unbind them(and make it tradeable on the market). Then implement some sega run shops to regulate the market(things that sell good stuff at reasonable prices). Yes people would be ticked at first, but as the market started to adjust they'd get over it. Next step, so that the new healthier economy doesn't crash due to the terrible affix and grinding system, we need to fix that. Heavily decrease the chances of a grind failing, but increase the penalties(lose more grinders, lose more grinds, etc). Decrease the costs of affixing and grinding astronomically. I do believe we're done here, that should make EWH completely useful and relevant as good wands will never cost in the millions upon billions to get. Oh wait, we also need to boost drop rates by about 200-300% permanently(at least).

[Saffran]

Link1275> are you for real?
Yes, the tree needs a redesign, but that's about the only thing that made sense in your message.

[gigawuts]

EWH is a bad concept as a main damage gain. Additional, sure, but not as a main source of damage. Give techer tech JA bonus and make it apply to gear explosions. Tech Zero Range Advance would also be great if it works on gear explosions too.

[UnLucky]

It'd be perfect if they just gave it All JA Bonus. No other class has exactly the same thing, and it works for melee hits, WG explosions, and techs. And gunslash?

[gigawuts]

Honestly I don't even see a problem with Damage Bonus for all damage types for all classes being a problem. If anything it would fix more than it would break.

[cheapgunner]

How about this:

For Techers, Territory burst should have larger AoE the more points you put into it, likely double of what it is now at 10 SP. Extend Assist should have been 10 minutes at 10 SP as well. Maybe give techers jellen and zalure that reduces enemy striking/range/tech atk and def stats by like 10-15% when casted and lingers for a little while till it disappears, recasting debuffs on new spawns.

[Sanguine2009]

while buffing territory burst(not that it really needs it outside of maybe making it a stance) and extend assist would be nice, it would do nothing to get people to play techer more. people who dont already play it would likely just sub it overall not really fixing anything.

jellen and zalure might help alot, but only if they are techer or wand only for some reason

[AlphawingEX]

But, but, but, but Techer can butcher everything before its gear gauge is filled.....

Not everything. I don't "butcher" bosses with wands. I use Techs on the bosses because, like I said before, Wand Gear was not meant for bosses. Bosses are the biggest obstacle Techers have to face and it's the only thing stopping me from making a good SH Time Attack. I think that's one of the reasons why we want Techer (both Wand Gear and Skill Tree) to be buffed/reworked. There isn't enough overall damage boosting skills besides EWH, and you have to practically waste 21 SP just to get a 20% boost, while other classes spend almost close to no SP to get 10%-25%. Giving Wand Lovers, or any skill for that matter, a JA bonus will not make Techer OP or nowhere near OP.


It'd be perfect if they just gave it All JA Bonus. No other class has exactly the same thing, and it works for melee hits, WG explosions, and techs.

This ^. Giving Techers a skill like this, on top of a Wand PA, or something (like Wand Gear) that hits multiple targets on one enemy would make Techer a much better class overall.

[cheapgunner]

while buffing territory burst(not that it really needs it outside of maybe making it a stance) and extend assist would be nice, it would do nothing to get people to play techer more. people who dont already play it would likely just sub it overall not really fixing anything.

jellen and zalure might help alot, but only if they are techer or wand only for some reason

True. How about applying Jellen to Shifta Advance, Zalure to Deband Advance if maining techer. Changing the skill bonus from 1.25 for shifta/deband boost to raising the damage cieling by 1.2x, as well as a 1.2x dex modifier to shifta advance to boost.

[Zorafim]

Honestly I don't even see a problem with Damage Bonus for all damage types for all classes being a problem. If anything it would fix more than it would break.

Well, here's the problem. One class gets an ability which boosts all damage by 50%. Everyone will switch over to that class as a subclass, unless other classes get the same or similar abilities. And if every class boosts damage by 50%, then no classes boost damage by 50%. (http://www.troll.me/images2/syndrome/everyone-can-be-super-and-when-everyones-super-no-one-will-be.jpg)

What needs to happen instead is for classes to gain abilities which makes them play differently, without boosting their power. The main difference between hunter, ranger, and force, for instance, is that one gets in close to attack, one stays far to attack, and one can be anywhere effectively at the expense of survivability. Classes will continue to be interesting if each one has its own little nitch, and you can mix and match them as you please. Not if your damage is just bigger for equipping a class.

[UnLucky]

The point was to have both.

Every class gets access to a certain amount of damage skills simply by leveling up. Plain old progression that's more than base stats.

They also get a unique set of damage skills to foster various, appropriate gameplay styles. These would be stronger yet conditional.

Then alongside some mixture of the above, you have secondary skills that do not directly increase damage. You can get some of these while maxing every damage skill, or sacrifice something else to get more.

That way you don't have classes that are entirely worthless as a main, even at the level cap, simply because it lacks suitable damage skills. You also wouldn't have pointless subclasses that give nothing but conditional bonuses which don't even apply to anything the main class uses.

[Link1275]

Link1275> are you for real?
Yes, the tree needs a redesign, but that's about the only thing that made sense in your message.

If you gave EWH a 9999999999999999999999999999999999% damage boost, no one would use it as a primary damage source unless they could get a cheap 9* wand in every element. This is because no matter what it's not economical(and giving it such a boost would mean everyone would play Techer and all wands would be in the millions). So, basically you have to put in a ton of other revisions just to make it viable to use it as otherwise it's too expensive(billions to get 6 wands that can do what you want anyone?).

The Shifta and Deband advance skills and the ones below them are essentially worthless so let's just move them somewhere on the tree where they are out of the why and no one will notice them.

If that still doesn't make sense.........................:-P:-P:-P:-P

[UnLucky]

Even 100% would be enough to make techs stupid OP and Red Wands a good backup for mobbing (with a main light element wand).

[gigawuts]

Well, here's the problem. One class gets an ability which boosts all damage by 50%. Everyone will switch over to that class as a subclass, unless other classes get the same or similar abilities. And if every class boosts damage by 50%, then no classes boost damage by 50%. (http://www.troll.me/images2/syndrome/everyone-can-be-super-and-when-everyones-super-no-one-will-be.jpg)

What needs to happen instead is for classes to gain abilities which makes them play differently, without boosting their power. The main difference between hunter, ranger, and force, for instance, is that one gets in close to attack, one stays far to attack, and one can be anywhere effectively at the expense of survivability. Classes will continue to be interesting if each one has its own little nitch, and you can mix and match them as you please. Not if your damage is just bigger for equipping a class.

Unlucky beat me to it: A core damage skill is there to be your main source of damage as you level. This will improve your offensive capabilities as a whole. Situational or conditional damage skills exist to accentuate a playstyle, not forge a class's role. Each class is intended to foster at least 2 separate roles. This does not mean it shouldn't have something that will improve both - actually, it means that it should have something that will improve both.

Forcing overspecialization at the expense of general performance stifles creativity and highly limits player choices. Becoming a bit more super at everything is the point of leveling.

Hence core damage skills.

[UnLucky]

Well, here's the problem. One class gets an ability which boosts all damage by 50%. Everyone will switch over to that class as a subclass, unless other classes get the same or similar abilities.
Expanding on that a bit, it's already the problem.

Hunter gives too much general damage. Everyone uses it as their subclass because it eclipses conditional bonuses.

Every class should have the same or similar baseline ability.

Even if every bonus on every class applied to all damage, as gigawuts pointed out, "If anything it would fix more than it would break."

Ranger already isn't the best subclass for pure ranged damage since it only barely tops Hunter when the stars align. If WHA, SS, and FH worked for Striking, would you see everyone switch to Fi/Ra? Hu/Ra? Katana Br/Ra? Not likely, though you'll definitely see more than you would now.

[Link1275]

Even 100% would be enough to make techs stupid OP and Red Wands a good backup for mobbing (with a main light element wand).

That would also make techer pointless as there would be no need to use anything for melee.....

[gigawuts]

Wand should share PAs with swords.

Guilty Break and Over End say hi (but Guilty Break is all wands really need).

[UnLucky]

I want to use Ride Slasher with this:
http://i.imgur.com/2E38Auu.png

[Link1275]

I want to use Ride Slasher with this:
http://pso2.cirnopedia.info/icons_large/weapons/wand/wand_021.png
You can't hotlink images from cirno

[UnLucky]

You can't hotlink images from cirno

Yeah I fixed it

[Radical Dreamer]

I want to use Ride Slasher with this:

For some reason, I read that as Rider Slash.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifDYigXNJBs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifDYigXNJBs

... And that's my sole contribution to this thread. Zooooooosh!

[Sakarisei]

Well, i won't say not about getting new PAs to Wands. I personally only see useful wands, just for supporting the party for mob killing with Wand's elemental AOE, but not useful as a main weapon. However...


Ehhh, No. EWH isn't useful even though it works for wands, because it isn't practical to use it in endgame. While yes that would certainly make it extremely useful for techs, you could still likely do more damage with a generic specialist build for a couple of techs.

I disagree. If you've got elemental variety, you won't have problems about thinking in covering all elements for it. However, i agree Unlucky in the case that TE should get more DPS, and not getting just TE for more element masteries in FO or PP regen...


But again, all techer and force need to be balanced is a stronger shifta. It would create a demand for them, as well as boost their offensive capability solo. The main reason HUnewearl wasn't outclassed by HUcast was s/d, and it can be that way again if SEGA pulls their heads out of their butts. You can even keep the dumb pulse system. It provides a "balance" by making it tedious to keep your damage boosts running, and limiting its impact on party members and MPAs.

OMG... yeah, i agree. The only way for TE as a sub is, in my opinion, getting more PP and more PP regen, one thing that at least i appreciate it as a HU. However, if we had got more Shifta power (And duration, because it's very sad using 1 SP in Extend Assist, for just 1 minute more...), that would help, NOT ONLY Techers, although we'll get better Shifta than others. FO as a Sub would be at least a good sub for hybrids or who knows, but the hell... and i'm sorry for using, perhaps, non-polite (or rude) words, but if you've played old versions of PSO and PSU & AOTI, FOs were an important piece in a party which could buff and heal, increasing significantly party's efficient.

In this game, the only value is just oneshotting and TAing. You can see the Arks GPs 2012.


How about this:

For Techers, Territory burst should have larger AoE the more points you put into it, likely double of what it is now at 10 SP. Extend Assist should have been 10 minutes at 10 SP as well. Maybe give techers jellen and zalure that reduces enemy striking/range/tech atk and def stats by like 10-15% when casted and lingers for a little while till it disappears, recasting debuffs on new spawns.

I won't say not too. Lv 1 is much more profitable than lv 2-10...


Not everything. I don't "butcher" bosses with wands. I use Techs on the bosses because, like I said before, Wand Gear was not meant for bosses. Bosses are the biggest obstacle Techers have to face and it's the only thing stopping me from making a good SH Time Attack. I think that's one of the reasons why we want Techer (both Wand Gear and Skill Tree) to be buffed/reworked. There isn't enough overall damage boosting skills besides EWH, and you have to practically waste 21 SP just to get a 20% boost, while other classes spend almost close to no SP to get 10%-25%. Giving Wand Lovers, or any skill for that matter, a JA bonus will not make Techer OP or nowhere near OP.

If you see it expensive, try getting EWH with Wand Reactor or PP Convert. The f***... that's extremely expensive, and you can't get much freedom for it...

[Zorafim]

For some reason, I read that as Rider Slash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifDYigXNJBs

... And that's my sole contribution to this thread. Zooooooosh!

Why is this not a thing we are doing?

[TaigaUC]

I find it boring that subclasses mostly just boost damage instead of allowing you to experiment with and enjoy the best mechanics of both your main and subclass.

You have to setup your sub skill trees to complement your main, too.
If you don't intend to pay money for extra trees, you're basically stuck with a class that serves as a sub and can't stand on its own.

[gigawuts]

Well the thing is, at first classes did add a new class to your main class...well, kind of. The unlockable classes didn't have many allclass weapons, but the base classes mostly did, so subbing the unlockable class was close enough. The funny thing is now things have been reversed, and the small selection of multiclass weapons have pigeonholed us even more.

Then Sega slowly began to whittle away at that by refusing to add good allclass items as the game went on and adding more and more extreme skills. Hunter was underpowered so instead of giving it one fix they gave it two fixes at once. All Hunter needed was either Fury Stance change or the addition of Fury Combo Up. Not both.

Now we're at the point where we're essentially playing 7 classes again, and the subclass system is gone. Which may have been their ill-advised goal. Maybe they think the sheer damage of a HU sub is balanced by the extra abilities of a subclass - and that's possible, but not the result of what they've done.

Right now the only subs even slightly approaching balanced with HU is FI for techer, because HU won't buff techs more than 20%, and RA for GU or bow BR because of weak bullet. That's really saying something - it takes a temporary 3x damage bonus for the entire field to offset Hunter's lazy and convenient 2x damage.

[Arksenth]

Late to the conversation, but I kind of like Wand Gear for TE/FO 'cause you're pretty much going TE for Wind in most cases these days with Sazan being as it is anyway. Toting around a Windmill buffs your Wind Tech damage to rod levels (discounting the reduced cast speed) plus boosts your Zanverse multiplier from .2 to .33, and then you can just cast anything else off a boosted Talis, so you've got all of your casting options covered.

I like having access to Wand Gear though because it can still do really insane damage even if you don't have a striking-class multiplying it since the AoE multiplies for every mob in it. So it's kind of situational on TE/FO, but it fills a nice niche if you have a bunch of mobs around you and want to dispense of them in a PP-efficient method - if you have 10 mobs trapped in a Zondeel, they're going to die in two wand smacks regardless of if you're a TE/FO or a TE/FI or TE/HU anyway.

I tried out TE/HU a while ago, but the one thing I didn't like was that if there was a zonde-happy FO around, you were pretty much gimped, plus you didn't really have that many options for mobs. Wand Gear is kind of situational IMO - it only really shines if you can a) make use of Zondeel, and b) gather a lot of mobs around you. I mean, when stars line it, it really, really shines, but I feel that TE/HU and TE/FI are too reliant on it when TE/FO has other options up its sleeve for when you can't use it.

[Resta]

Late to the conversation, but I kind of like Wand Gear for TE/FO 'cause you're pretty much going TE for Wind in most cases these days with Sazan being as it is anyway.

can you send me a skill tree to use to get these benefits like you said?

[Arksenth]

Here's the tree I use.

For weapon choices, I use Windmill with Latent Lv. 3 for Zan and Zanverse (or when I'm lazy and I feel like just spamming Sazan on easy-mode without having to refresh my Talis every four techs). Windmill with Lv. 3 Latent and appropriate affixes should match or outdamage even the strongest rods with JA Latent for Wind, plus boost Zanverse uniquely. Although DPS doesn't match up to a Rod because it has a slower casting speed, but on the upside, it's much cheaper than buying one of those 50m+ fully tricked out rods to get equal damage, plus you're better support for boss fights with Zanverse doing 1/3rd of everyone's damage instead of 1/5th.

I use a Dahgash Talis because I like to pair it with a Fire build's Gifoie for darkers. Super useful for the new EQ too. If I'm doing Tunnels/Ruins or another place with Lightning Weakness, or I expect there to be multiple non-exit bursts, I usually swap it for a Lightning build for Zondeel, though.

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06fbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbIn 0000000lb000009b000000lb0000084OIk2X2XjbncAjbn0000 jkbdqHXfdFI2J2Ibioib00009b000008

TE/FO wand gear damage is pretty pathetic on regular mobs (something like 500+600), but you're only using it in conjunction with Zondeel and multiple mobs anyway - with enough mobs, you should be able to do upwards of 5k damage a wand smack on each. Teching damage doesn't suffer in the least, and is still optimal especially for Wind techs - and arguably, those are the ones that get the most play these days especially with double wind mastery. Basically, Wand Gear in the hand of TE/FO is just another tool on top of the usual FO skillset, instead of your main focus like TE/HU or TE/FI.

[Link1275]

I disagree. If you've got elemental variety, you won't have problems about thinking in covering all elements for it. However, i agree Unlucky in the case that TE should get more DPS, and not getting just TE for more element masteries in FO or PP regen...


A.) What you said made close to no sense. B.) EWH is not useful. You can not expect boosting EWH to make TE usable for the average player without an economy fix, as in order for EWH to max its potential you have to have a wand for each element. Techer uses both melee and techs, not just techs. We also don't want to just make Techer a mandatory Force sub by giving it a skill that is the equivalent of two elemental masteries. C.) Techers should not be focused solely on Techs and ergo an element specialization is much more beneficial to a Techer's play style(you don't want to be constantly switching weapon palettes to account for each different enemy's weakness). D.) EWH is buried in the techer tree with a minimum of 32 SP required to max it. E.) Elemental variety means more techs to purchase and more techs to hunt.

TLDR; EWH is not worth it unless they give it a massive boost(and it still would be outclassed by element specializations in some manner or another, because segac).

[Resta]

Here's the tree I use.

For weapon choices, I use Windmill with Latent Lv. 3 for Zan and Zanverse (or when I'm lazy and I feel like just spamming Sazan on easy-mode without having to refresh my Talis every four techs). Windmill with Lv. 3 Latent and appropriate affixes should match or outdamage even the strongest rods with JA Latent for Wind, plus boost Zanverse uniquely. Although DPS doesn't match up to a Rod because it has a slower casting speed, but on the upside, it's much cheaper than buying one of those 50m+ fully tricked out rods to get equal damage, plus you're better support for boss fights with Zanverse doing 1/3rd of everyone's damage instead of 1/5th.


can you explain what zanverse does and when to use it?

[Arksenth]

Zanverse creates a wind field around you about the size of a Resta field that lasts for 5 seconds charged (and also impacted by territory burst) that generates a wind attack for every hit anyone (including yourself) does in the field that hits for 20% of the original attack's damage within the buff. So for example, if a BR does a Kamikaze Arrow within a Zanverse for 10k damage, it'll generate an additional wind blow of 2k damage. It's only impacted by Wind Mastery and the Divine Wind Protection potential (which only Windmill has so far), but if you have both, you can buff the damage for 33% of the original attack's damage.

You use it mostly when your MPA/Party is concentrating on a single target and mostly standing around a single point, like bosses. It's really great for buffing up certain melees, because they end up doing some pretty heavy blows and you get to profit off that.

[Resta]

A.) What you said made close to no sense. B.) EWH is not useful. You can not expect boosting EWH to make TE usable for the average player without an economy fix, as in order for EWH to max its potential you have to have a wand for each element. Techer uses both melee and techs, not just techs. We also don't want to just make Techer a mandatory Force sub by giving it a skill that is the equivalent of two elemental masteries. C.) Techers should not be focused solely on Techs and ergo an element specialization is much more beneficial to a Techer's play style(you don't want to be constantly switching weapon palettes to account for each different enemy's weakness). D.) EWH is buried in the techer tree with a minimum of 32 SP required to max it. E.) Elemental variety means more techs to purchase and more techs to hunt.

TLDR; EWH is not worth it unless they give it a massive boost(and it still would be outclassed by element specializations in some manner or another, because segac).
So a Te/Fo build shouldnt use EWH?

[gigawuts]

They should in the state the class is in, but they shouldn't need to rely on it as their main source of damage.

[Sakarisei]

A.) What you said made close to no sense. B.) EWH is not useful. You can not expect boosting EWH to make TE usable for the average player without an economy fix, as in order for EWH to max its potential you have to have a wand for each element. Techer uses both melee and techs, not just techs. We also don't want to just make Techer a mandatory Force sub by giving it a skill that is the equivalent of two elemental masteries. C.) Techers should not be focused solely on Techs and ergo an element specialization is much more beneficial to a Techer's play style(you don't want to be constantly switching weapon palettes to account for each different enemy's weakness). D.) EWH is buried in the techer tree with a minimum of 32 SP required to max it. E.) Elemental variety means more techs to purchase and more techs to hunt.

TLDR; EWH is not worth it unless they give it a massive boost(and it still would be outclassed by element specializations in some manner or another, because segac).

Don't make me laugh. You're the one who is losing about 30% (10% of melee and 20% of explosion) damage on your wand, mainly because is obvious that you won't get 6 wands, one for each element (I'd tried that thing once, and affixing 6 wands per element is just losing much meseta time). However, if you've got weapons with Ligth, Lightning and Fire (Wands or not), you can ignore enemies with Dark since you've got Namegid and Dark Mastery for it, you can ignore too enemies with wind weakness. It's extremely rare seeing mobs and even bosses with just wind weakness (The only ones in this game is Bantha Ong, rare version of Fang Banther). And finally, if you're playing in Caves and/or Seabed, you can use Nabarta for ice mobs (Or Rabarta for Wand Gear), don't seeing necessary an Ice Wand for it.

It's not hard knowing element preferences, but eh, if you don't use EWH because you see it 100% useless, well, you're free of ignoring it, but you will get serious problems of DPS, unless you're trying getting full Dark Mastery or Wind Mastery (Which you won't get always elemental weakness bonus of Dark And Wind).

[Link1275]

Don't make me laugh. You're the one who is losing about 30% (10% of melee and 20% of explosion) damage on your wand, mainly because is obvious that you won't get 6 wands, one for each element (I'd tried that thing once, and affixing 6 wands per element is just losing much meseta time). However, if you've got weapons with Ligth, Lightning and Fire (Wands or not), you can ignore enemies with Dark since you've got Namegid and Dark Mastery for it, you can ignore too enemies with wind weakness. It's extremely rare seeing mobs and even bosses with just wind weakness (The only ones in this game is Bantha Ong, rare version of Fang Banther). And finally, if you're playing in Caves and/or Seabed, you can use Nabarta for ice mobs (Or Rabarta for Wand Gear), don't seeing necessary an Ice Wand for it.

It's not hard knowing element preferences, but eh, if you don't use EWH because you see it 100% useless, well, you're free of ignoring it, but you will get serious problems of DPS, unless you're trying getting full Dark Mastery or Wind Mastery (Which you won't get always elemental weakness bonus of Dark And Wind).
Please, go read the last few pages of this thread again. Techer is NOT a pure caster, it switches between melee and techs on the fly! Therefore you would need a wand for each element that you intend to use EWH with in order to actually get this "30%" damage boost you speak of(EWH only boosts the element portion of an attack by 20%). And you will not get DPS problems because you don't use EWH, unless you build a tree that depends on EWH for damage and then remove it, if anything the downtime in weapon palette switch will cause more DPS problems than not using EWH(especially if you get a lag spike).

So please, don't make me laugh(while you're at it, would you mind proofreading occasionally?).

[Resta]

I'm so confused now

[Rakurai]

(EWH only boosts the element portion of an attack by 20%).

Actually, they changed it in the episode 2 patch to be applied to both the physical and elemental portion of attacks as long as your weapon is utilizing the enemy's elemental weakness.

[gigawuts]

Yeah Element Weak Hit on techer now works thusly:
Is it weak to the element of the tech or weapon?
If yes multiply total damage by 1.2
If no do nothing

This change did nothing to the pre-existing weakness system you find in weak stance or enemy weaknesses. This is exclusive to EWH.

[UnLucky]

Please, go read the last few pages of this thread again. Techer is NOT a pure caster, it switches between melee and techs on the fly! Therefore you would need a wand for each element that you intend to use EWH with in order to actually get this "30%" damage boost you speak of(EWH only boosts the element portion of an attack by 20%). And you will not get DPS problems because you don't use EWH, unless you build a tree that depends on EWH for damage and then remove it, if anything the downtime in weapon palette switch will cause more DPS problems than not using EWH(especially if you get a lag spike).

So please, don't make me laugh(while you're at it, would you mind proofreading occasionally?).

Techer is not a pure caster... so you're saying they shouldn't get the ONLY skill that boosts BOTH melee and techs?

If you use Wind techs, you can get EWH. If you use Dark techs, you can get EWH. Fire and Lightning too. And when you whack Darkers with a Light element wand, hey look, your singular Striking multiplier as a Te/Fo!

It's basically a third elemental mastery for every element, and the only thing in Techer's own tree that boosts melee+WG (until new WL). I would never recommend not taking it.

Also pretty sure Sakarisei is ESL but the meaning usually gets through.

[Rakurai]

It's too bad you can't max both skills of an element mastery along with Wand Lovers and EWH currently.

Which is why I'm really hoping they cut down on some of the skill requirements like they did for Force's ice branch.

[Sakarisei]

Please, go read the last few pages of this thread again. Techer is NOT a pure caster, it switches between melee and techs on the fly! Therefore you would need a wand for each element that you intend to use EWH with in order to actually get this "30%" damage boost you speak of(EWH only boosts the element portion of an attack by 20%). And you will not get DPS problems because you don't use EWH, unless you build a tree that depends on EWH for damage and then remove it, if anything the downtime in weapon palette switch will cause more DPS problems than not using EWH(especially if you get a lag spike).

So please, don't make me laugh(while you're at it, would you mind proofreading occasionally?).

Firstly, who have said that EWH is just for full casters? The first time that i've heard from EWH, lol.

Secondly, is it hard for you trying obtaining a good variety of light, lightning and fire weapons? (wands or not, you choose) I'm not saying that thing is easy, of course not, but i don't think that doing it should be near impossible, if you often play PSO2.

Thirdly, have you ever think that Techer is, perhaps, the most expensive class for getting good DPS (Obtaining a Wand (or wands, depend of yours) and then grind attribute or element to 50 for more DPS in ours)?

If you're a TE who uses just a wand, it's obviously that EWH won't work with you. But believe me that if you've got Light, Lightning and Fire Wands, i can assure you that you can use many times EWH. Just dark weakness is only in Skyland and Sanctum. Just wind weakness... the hell... only Bantha Ong. And Ice Weakness, caves and Seabed.

Seriously, is it hard to check about what elements are profitable and what elements not?

PD: Yeah, i'm an ESL, but not a bad english speaker, or at least i'm trying it, lol

[Rakurai]

It's rather nice that there's a wand with a latent for every single type of enemy, so you can take extra advantage of their generally shared elemental weaknesses. All of them except for the Arcru Carta are pretty inexpensive for the most part, as well.

A fire Yede Club, a light Dagacha Wand, a dark Ex Wand, and an ice Arcru Carta would cover almost everything. The only thing that's missing is a decent anti-machine wand, but that won't be an issue once crafting is out.

[gigawuts]

It's rather nice that there's a wand with a latent for every single type of enemy, so you can take extra advantage of their generally shared elemental weaknesses. All of them except for the Arcru Carta are pretty inexpensive for the most part, as well.

A fire Yede Club, a light Dagacha Wand, a dark Ex Wand, and an ice Arcru Carta would cover almost everything. The only thing that's missing is a decent anti-machine wand, but that won't be an issue once crafting is out.

There IS the seabed watery wand, but it's super bad. We're talking grim grin bad.

The acklecarta does have the benefit of being usable on Braver, and I have been curious about a br/te or te/br build...

[qoxolg]

There IS the seabed watery wand, but it's super bad. We're talking grim grin bad.

The acklecarta does have the benefit of being usable on Braver, and I have been curious about a br/te or te/br build...

Been thinking about BR/TE, TE/BR with that wand as well, since I already leveled braver for my FO. It however requires lots of DEX and it's relatively expensive compared to other wands. I will wait for the crafting arrive to make my own all class wand.

Also when ignoring the volcano wand (do want in combination with a female version of the volcano outfit), wands are relatively inexpensive compared to other classes weapons. I've seen Traitor Peak going for only 5M thanks to the tundra EQ.

[Arksenth]

I don't know why you wouldn't get EWH with the TE skill tree as it is, regardless of if you're teching or meleeing... It's not like you have to be an Element Generalist to benefit from it - even if you're a dual-mastery element specialist, it's still an extra 20% damage on top of your 44% damage for common situations. And if something ends up spawning with an infection core, you get a 20% damage bonus on top of your usual damage bonus on a weak point just for locking onto that care.

And if you're meleeing, a Light wand will give you the damage bonus on like, what, a quarter? A half of the enemies you meet?

I mean, if TE had any other non-elemental multipliers, sure, but it doesn't and there isn't much else in the tree to get.

[gigawuts]

Something that's been irking me for a while...I really wish wand gear applied the SE of its elemental explosion.

Seriously.

Yes, that would mean wands could inflict two SEs with plain old melee. The one affixed to it and the one associated with its element.

Wands without elements should inflict, I dunno, let's go with Bind.

I also still really wanna see the gear explosion always happen on wands (or at least always if you have the gear), then Wand Gear would increase the AOE and make explosions persist a bit so they can hit enemies that might walk into it.

[qoxolg]

But but but.. That might even make wands fun and good! SEGA wouldn't wanna do that, since they hate TE.

It's all because anyone that played FO seriously in the old PSO was a melee FO. Even FOnewearl was more competent using melee then the shitty techs and the insane PP drain. The nail in the coffin was the fact that techs canceled the damage of other classes. SEGA is probably still mad that pretty much no one played as a caster FO. Now they intentionally gimped the melee FO, techer, as a form of punishment.

[Sanguine2009]

i take back what i said about being happy with this buff
sega utterly disgusts me, buffing br on top giving them utterly ridiculously overpowered PAs when they only really needed one or the other while techer gets a small s-att boost? for 30s? that wont matter much in the long run? sega can go rot in hell

[Rakurai]

I'd like to hope they're going to at least increase the duration of Wand Lovers to make it so you can always have it active.

But yeah. They really need to nerf the damage on Shunran, or else there's not much reason to play any melee class other then Braver, as they already have enough advantages over hunters and fighters as it is (Free just guard ability, good AoE, good gap closers, temporary invincibility...).

[GALEFORCE]

Or they can buff everything else to braver level. Braver just got up to gunner-tier. I think if everything else catches up too, we might have a balanced game.

[Sanguine2009]

buffing everything up to gu lvs of damage would be a terrible idea, admittedly a better idea than what they are doing, but a terrible idea none the less. if anything gu and now br need to be brought down to the level of most other classes and te needs to be buffed up to them.

as it stands right now there is little reason from an efficiency stand point to play anything but gu or br, they are just that much stronger than everything else

[GALEFORCE]

I was originally against the gigantic buff gunner got. At most, I would have wanted sroll JA to be 50%, and even that would have been a steep improvement. It's been far too long since then though. Power creep is going to happen since SEGA does not want to nerf gunner. I also don't think fighter is that much behind, though I don't play the class much at all.

Back to the topic of techer, it really is hard for me to see how they could possibly bump it up to GU levels. Teching in general needs gigantic buffs all around, and techer doesn't even do that well by current standards. Even a fixed shifta probably would not be sufficient. It's pretty much the only class in the game that I feel requires a rework. I don't think bringing other classes down to near techer level would be very fun for anyone.

[qoxolg]

We should be happy SEGA isn't making it any worse. I never used Wand Lovers to begin with, so in the worst case, things stay the same. I am not sure if I am gonna use Wand Lovers after the buff, because I hate the stance dancing. WL every 45 seconds, TB every 90 seconds. I feel sorry for people that play TE/FI. Would become one big dance parade! :wacko:

To be honest, techer on its self is not a bad class and in terms of mobbing actually one of the best. It's just that the other classes are OP with ridiculous multipliers. Nerving everything down to techer level would be much better. Maybe some day SEGA will release a ver2 of PSO2 and completly rebuild skill trees. It took the original PSO till ver3 untill it was somewhat balanced with reasonal drops.

[Arada]

Yes, TE's skill tree needs a full reworking and things need to be added and removed to change the entire gameplay of the class.

I want Step, Step Attack (+ Wand Gear).
I want Shifta and Deband Advance to give me a straight boost of 20% (added to the original boost of the techs to make a 40+% buff). And merge them in the skill tree so that we only have 1 SP to spend on this (which is quite a lot already).
I want to be able to get something more out of Wand Gear (which is defining skill of the class) like being able to apply the corresponding status effect.
I want Territory Burst to last 600 seconds.
I want Elemental PAs with a Wand.

Well, there are a lot of ideas out there that Sega could/should use but it maily is a full rework of the class.

For now, FO and TE cannot compete with the damage of the rest of the field by a long shot.

[UnLucky]

To be honest, techer on its self is not a bad class and in terms of mobbing actually one of the best. It's just that the other classes are OP with ridiculous multipliers. Nerving everything down to techer level would be much better. Maybe some day SEGA will release a ver2 of PSO2 and completly rebuild skill trees. It took the original PSO till ver3 untill it was somewhat balanced with reasonal drops.
How could you possibly nerf the other classes down to Techer's level?


Hunter/Fighter gears are now 10SP skills that give half the bonus on the final point.
JA and Fury bonuses are all removed, replaced with WL/Partisan/Sword Mastery that give 20% damage with their respective weapon at 10SP.
Just Guard is now a 10SP active skill that negates all damage when a perfect Guard is performed within a 90s duration at lv1 and 110s at lv10 with a 120s cd.
Just Counter is a 5SP skill below Flash Guard 2 which reflects 20% of incoming damage after a Guard while Just Guard is active


Oh man, I think I would just remove half of Ranger/Gunner's skills, and you know which ones.

[gigawuts]

Unlucky nailed that.

You can't nerf the other classes to techer's level. The masteries make sure of that. The masteries have gotta fucking go, more so on techer than even force.

[qoxolg]

How could you possibly nerf the other classes down to Techer's level?


Hunter/Fighter gears are now 10SP skills that give half the bonus on the final point.
JA and Fury bonuses are all removed, replaced with WL/Partisan/Sword Mastery that give 20% damage with their respective weapon at 10SP.
Just Guard is now a 10SP active skill that negates all damage when a perfect Guard is performed within a 90s duration at lv1 and 110s at lv10 with a 120s cd.
Just Counter is a 5SP skill below Flash Guard 2 which reflects 20% of incoming damage after a Guard while Just Guard is active


Oh man, I think I would just remove half of Ranger/Gunner's skills, and you know which ones.

ROFL!

I almost did forget about some of the ridiculous shit that's going on in the techer tree :wacko: but, I'd love to see SEGA do that! The rage it would cause would be wonderful!

And yes, please remove shit like S roll and Weak Bullit.

But in all seriousness, other then completly rebuilding all skill trees, I don't think there will ever be balance.

[Link1275]

Techer is not a pure caster... so you're saying they shouldn't get the ONLY skill that boosts BOTH melee and techs?

If you use Wind techs, you can get EWH. If you use Dark techs, you can get EWH. Fire and Lightning too. And when you whack Darkers with a Light element wand, hey look, your singular Striking multiplier as a Te/Fo!

It's basically a third elemental mastery for every element, and the only thing in Techer's own tree that boosts melee+WG (until new WL). I would never recommend not taking it.

Also pretty sure Sakarisei is ESL but the meaning usually gets through.

No, I am saying they shouldn't get a skill that benefits wands only in the case that they happen to have the correct element(essentially never if you don't have a wand in each element). Especially if there are other things that can be obtained on the Techer tree that are better than that.


Firstly, who have said that EWH is just for full casters? The first time that i've heard from EWH, lol.

Secondly, is it hard for you trying obtaining a good variety of light, lightning and fire weapons? (wands or not, you choose) I'm not saying that thing is easy, of course not, but i don't think that doing it should be near impossible, if you often play PSO2.

Thirdly, have you ever think that Techer is, perhaps, the most expensive class for getting good DPS (Obtaining a Wand (or wands, depend of yours) and then grind attribute or element to 50 for more DPS in ours)?

If you're a TE who uses just a wand, it's obviously that EWH won't work with you. But believe me that if you've got Light, Lightning and Fire Wands, i can assure you that you can use many times EWH. Just dark weakness is only in Skyland and Sanctum. Just wind weakness... the hell... only Bantha Ong. And Ice Weakness, caves and Seabed.

Seriously, is it hard to check about what elements are profitable and what elements not?

PD: Yeah, i'm an ESL, but not a bad english speaker, or at least i'm trying it, lol

I said that Techers aren't full casters, because you were saying not to get Ice wands due to Techers being able to cast Ice techs in the areas that required them instead of using the wand to get some damage in.

Light, Lightning, and Fire wands are not the only wands you need though. The only element that is negligible on a wand is wind atm. EWH is not something that is good enough to rely on as a main source of damage and it is not something that you can use 100% of the time unless you have a few billion meseta lying around(plus premium, and junk 10 stars).

I know that Techer is the most expensive class, but Billions of meseta to get 20% more damage 100% of the time is not worth it(especially when there are other skills).


Nerving everything down to techer level would be much better. Maybe some day SEGA will release a ver2 of PSO2 and completly rebuild skill trees. It took the original PSO till ver3 untill it was somewhat balanced with reasonal drops.

No, just no.

[jcart953]

ROFL!


And yes, please remove shit like S roll and Weak Bullit.

.



^ I vote no, because removing Sroll would put gunner back in shit tier and everyone would be complaining again how that class cant stand on its own. As, far as WB I honestly don't see it too often anymore. Not to mention most classes these days can still steam roll bosses without it.

[gigawuts]

[QUOTE=qoxolg;3075720]

And yes, please remove shit like S roll and Weak Bullit.
[\QUOTE]

^ I vote no, because removing Sroll would put gunner back in shit tier and everyone would be complaining again how that class cant stand on its own. As, far as WB I honestly don't see it too often anymore. Not to mention most classes these days can still steam roll bosses without it.

That skill is insane and terrible design - it forces the class to do that and only that to compete.

When a 2x boost is mandatory the class is fundamentally fucking broken and a bandaid like a 2x bonus is horrible. It pigeonholes the class into doing that and ONLY that. It's worse than fury stance subbing. At least fury stance subbing lets the main classes keep their other options, and it has diminishing returns so if you want just guard you only lose 4%. With SRoll JA it's nope you either use SRoll all day every day or you deal half damage.

[jcart953]

[quote=jcart953;3075728]

That skill is insane and terrible design - it forces the class to do that and only that to compete.

When a 2x boost is mandatory the class is fundamentally fucking broken and a bandaid like a 2x bonus is horrible. It pigeonholes the class into doing that and ONLY that. It's worse than fury stance subbing. At least fury stance subbing lets the main classes keep their other options, and it has diminishing returns so if you want just guard you only lose 4%. With SRoll JA it's nope you either use SRoll all day every day or you deal half damage.

^ yeah but removing that gives us nothing, and makes gunner even more terrible. I rather 2x then nothing.

[gigawuts]

You are completely missing the point and are the entire reason things like that get added in the first place.

You can't just slap on bullshit balancing like that and call it even. You need to work on the foundations of the class and build something good from the ground up. If they remove SRoll JA they'd obviously need to work on the base performance of the class. That's just self-evident.

edit: Furthermore, your response shouldn't even just be a kneejerk "no." It should be "they'd have to do something to make up for it." Blurting out "NO THAT WOULD MAKE IT BAD" is completely counterproductive. Try contributing something more than "uh no." You might find threads here much nicer if everyone did that.

[jcart953]

edit: Furthermore, your response shouldn't even just be a kneejerk "no." It should be "they'd have to do something to make up for it." Blurting out "NO THAT WOULD MAKE IT BAD" is completely counterproductive. Try contributing something more than "uh no." You might find threads here much nicer if everyone did that.

What are you talking about, HE's the one that said flat out remove it without ANY added contributions on how to remake OR change it. So if anything that should be redirected at him. I clearly stated, ABSENT of any additional changes to SROLL (which was not mention by him) AND flat out removing it WILL MAKE IT GO BACK DOWN TO SHIT TIER and everyone would complain again (<---perfect valid argument). Please re-read correctly.

[gigawuts]

What are you talking about, HE's the one that said flat out remove it without ANY added contributions on how to remake OR change it. So if anything that should be redirected at him. I clearly stated, ABSENT of any additional changes to SROLL (which was not mention by him) AND flat out removing it WILL MAKE IT GO BACK DOWN TO SHIT TIER and everyone would complain again (<---perfect valid argument). Please re-read correctly.

Oh, you didn't say "no" you said "noooooooooooooooooooooooo"

You still didn't do anything but terminate that train of thought, which is literally the opposite of being productive and contributing to a thread.

Suggest something instead of just going "no." You even agree that the skill is a crutch and the class is bad without it. The class is bad with it, just not for the same reasons. It needs to go and the class needs to not lean on it to do well.

[UnLucky]

Especially if there are other things that can be obtained on the Techer tree that are better than that.
Please point me in the direction of these skills. I must have missed them somehow.


Light, Lightning, and Fire wands are not the only wands you need though. EWH is not something that is good enough to rely on as a main source of damage and it is not something that you can use 100% of the time unless you have a few billion meseta lying around(plus premium, and junk 10 stars).

I know that Techer is the most expensive class, but Billions of meseta to get 20% more damage 100% of the time is not worth it(especially when there are other skills).
No, but it gives you very general spread useful in most areas against most enemies.

If you think a couple extra wands make Techer the most expensive class, try, I don't know, Fighter or Hunter?


What are you talking about, HE's the one that said flat out remove it without ANY added contributions on how to remake OR change it. So if anything that should be redirected at him. I clearly stated, ABSENT of any additional changes to SROLL (which was not mention by him) AND flat out removing it WILL MAKE IT GO BACK DOWN TO SHIT TIER and everyone would complain again (<---perfect valid argument). Please re-read correctly.
Well, at first it was just a joke to nerf all classes. If Hunter had no Fury, Ranger had no WB, and Gunner had no SRoll, they could all be shit together. Plus, he did mention a complete redesign of the skill trees for proper balance, which would include SRoll and anything else.

[qoxolg]

Dude, chill out... We are just discussing game mechanics that were broken to begin with.

I didn't really think I had to bring up arguments to justify removing or modifying multipliers that go into 3 digits. They are both ridiculous and completely break the game and balance.

My solution would be to completely redesign all skill trees of all classes. Braver shows SEGA has learned to build better trees. Right now I only got some ideas for TE and FO, because those are the classes I play most. What I'd focus on would be skills that impact the ways you can play a class and still be relevant.

[jcart953]

Oh, you didn't say "no" you said "noooooooooooooooooooooooo".
WHAT??? I said a plain old no not all that extra stuff see below:

^ I vote no, because removing Sroll would put gunner back in shit tier and everyone would be complaining again how that class cant stand on its own.




You still didn't do anything but terminate that train of thought, which is literally the opposite of being productive and contributing to a thread.".

Are you serious??????? He said : JusT remove SROLL period. That was his suggestion and my counter argument is absent of any changes removing it is plain bad (so my counter suggestion would be to leaver it alone in that instance).Which is the truth, that's a valid argument no matter how you want to spin it. If you cant see that I cant help you.

[jcart953]

Well, at first it was just a joke to nerf all classes. If Hunter had no Fury, Ranger had no WB, and Gunner had no SRoll, they could all be shit together. Plus, he did mention a complete redesign of the skill trees for proper balance, which would include SRoll and anything else.

^ I must have missed that :) especially if he made suggestions for changing gunner. I mean it is 20 pages.

[Kikikiki]

Dude, chill out...

On the internet you frequently encounter autistic individuals who think they're the shit and cannot accept that they said something wrong from its very base.

[jcart953]

On the internet you frequently encounter autistic individuals who think they're the shit and cannot accept that they said something wrong from its very base.

You must be one of those people that just want to say something just to say it so I'll let you say your ridiculous assumption that has no merit so you can feel good about yourself.


Yeah, because the type of people who triple-post for the sole purpose of attention whoring and cannot even see the button called "Edit" is pretty autistic.

^^Nah I just seen them at different times, hardly fits the definition of autistic. Not to mention I'm not even trying it would make no sense to edit when your response is below me see. ? Does that make sense? (although I guess I'll wait awhile for more kids like yourself to say whatever ridcioulsy arguments you have and respond in 1 lump sum :) )

OH and to Qoxolg I thought your response was actually serious, but if you were indeed just joking about something. Then guess I misread, egg on my face. So ugh guess moving on?

[Kikikiki]

Yeah, because the type of people who triple-post for the sole purpose of attention whoring and cannot even see the button called "Edit" is pretty autistic.

[Mysterious-G]

If the 'enough?' in the title is asking whether we've had enough of a discussion of the upcoming buff, I think we just might.

[UnLucky]

Of all the unproductive and damaging things to say... you dare attempt to stifle the hapless voice of the underrepresented minority? There are Techers out there every day starving in the streets, all the while the upper-high-tier class sips on their fine wine wrought by the agony and fury of the downtrodden, regurgitating their wasteful luxury every 600 seconds simply to reapply it all over again!

WE CALL FOR A MASS REDISTRIBUTION OF DAMAGE MULTIPLIERS!

DOWN WITH THE TOP 40%!!

[Link1275]

Please point me in the direction of these skills. I must have missed them somehow.


No, but it gives you very general spread useful in most areas against most enemies.

If you think a couple extra wands make Techer the most expensive class, try, I don't know, Fighter or Hunter?

How about any other skill on the tree that actually does something? Unless you are going to use wind techs you can not max out a set of elemental masteries on the techer tree(ergo only Te/Fo and wind Techers can use it effectively), and EWH.
Edit: My post assumes that you actually care to delve into wand reactor, if not then you can max another set of masteries, but just the masteries for the most part.
Fighter and Hunter can get away with using just one sword or just one double saber, nor do they have to buy duplicates of the same weapon in different elements.

[gigawuts]

So many of techers problems would be helped if they would give every enemy 2+ weaknesses of varying amount, even between enemies from the same planet. 5% wind and 40% ice for dinians, 15% bolt and 25% ice for fordrans, keep vol the way he is with dark and ice being his main weakness, that sort of thing.

I also want to see freeze inflict a 5% weakness to striking damage, ranged damage, and each element. It'd kick in weak stance, WHA, and EWH. All bases covered.

[Link1275]

So many of techers problems would be helped if they would give every enemy 2+ weaknesses of varying amount, even between enemies from the same planet. 5% wind and 40% ice for dinians, 15% bolt and 25% ice for fordrans, keep vol the way he is with dark and ice being his main weakness, that sort of thing.

I also want to see freeze inflict a 5% weakness to striking damage, ranged damage, and each element. It'd kick in weak stance, WHA, and EWH. All bases covered.
Now that would fix techer.

[UnLucky]

How about any other skill on the tree that actually does something?

Like what? The elemental masteries? Might as well sub Fighter then to match Techer's Wind/Light/Dark which also stacks with Fire/Ice/Lightning, and then Wise and Chase would be even stronger.

You absolutely need EWH in order for Techer to stay relevant.

Why even bother getting Wand Reactor? That's only a 20% increase to your total stats, which doesn't even affect Wand Gear nor techs, which would be the majority of your damage, melee or otherwise.

EWH boosts everything you do. Use a Light element wand and deal 20% more damage to Darkers with both your regular swing, and the WG explosion. Have two wands, like Fire and Lightning to deal 20% more damage to all of Naberius, Lilipa, and Coast natives, as well as both Insect and Bug Darkers.

As Te/Fo, you've got at least two powerful elements to choose from. Fire/Dark covers quite a lot of weaknesses, as does Ice/Wind or Lightning with anything. 20% extra damage simply using the techs you're already specced for.

[Omega-z]

Well Nerf'ing all the other classes could work if you re-applied how you multiplied or added the mod's to what and how with out taking out or changing the mod's but won't happen since Sega's to lazy to do that, also the mass wont want it either.

But added XX% won't work fairy well if it's not in the hundreds of %. Instead of that add in niche type of skills that adds depth to Techer. This would be all most a complete rework of the Techer tree. We all could bring up a Tree that is better that uses what we have and by removing, adding, lowering, upping the Techer Skill Tree which would give Techer its own niche at the same time adding to other classes too. But Sega doesn't play there own games "enough" at least the Dev. team that works on balance doesn't.

[Sanguine2009]

i want sega to give techer the 2 stances that were data mined from it long ago, if i remember right there was a caster one and a melee one. assuming sega does not do what sega always does, they could contain the multipliers techer needs to be at least on par with other things and make real hybrids in general more viable by having another class that can boost both tech and melee reliably

[Arksenth]

Huh, what was this stance for TE that was data-mined a while ago? Sounds interesting.

[UnLucky]

PPConvertForce lv10

TechnicStance 50
AtpRatePPCLevel 1.2


PPConvertStrike lv10

StrikeStance 50
AtpRatePPCLevel 1.2

XStance in this case just means stat increase, it's the same as conditional skills like Halfline Slayer and similar, so they're not base stats.

AtpRate is a damage multiplier, though what "PPCLevel" means I have no clue

[Link1275]

Like what? The elemental masteries? Might as well sub Fighter then to match Techer's Wind/Light/Dark which also stacks with Fire/Ice/Lightning, and then Wise and Chase would be even stronger.

You absolutely need EWH in order for Techer to stay relevant.

Why even bother getting Wand Reactor? That's only a 20% increase to your total stats, which doesn't even affect Wand Gear nor techs, which would be the majority of your damage, melee or otherwise.

EWH boosts everything you do. Use a Light element wand and deal 20% more damage to Darkers with both your regular swing, and the WG explosion. Have two wands, like Fire and Lightning to deal 20% more damage to all of Naberius, Lilipa, and Coast natives, as well as both Insect and Bug Darkers.

As Te/Fo, you've got at least two powerful elements to choose from. Fire/Dark covers quite a lot of weaknesses, as does Ice/Wind or Lightning with anything. 20% extra damage simply using the techs you're already specced for.

EWH is not economical though. You could get Wand Reactor and Dark Masteries, therefore increasing your tech damage and your wand's S-Atk. The amount of S-Atk would vary by the wand, yes. It would however increase the wand's attack against everything, thereby eliminating the need to have 3+ wands to maximize EWH. And if you absolutely positively can NOT get premium then there is no way that you can get the best 10*s without years of farming or being that 1 in 999999999999999999999999 kind of person that gets 15 of the best rares in one day no matter the drop rates(essentially you either cheat or the hand of providence makes them drop). Ie, unless you have excess cash irl then EWH is likely not economical(the wands in the AQ shop are Fire, Ice, and Dark, with one requiring a 10* for trade). Btw, weren't elemental changers still in the 400k+ range(if not million+ for the good ones?).

[qoxolg]

EWH is not economical though. You could get Wand Reactor and Dark Masteries, therefore increasing your tech damage and your wand's S-Atk. The amount of S-Atk would vary by the wand, yes. It would however increase the wand's attack against everything, thereby eliminating the need to have 3+ wands to maximize EWH. And if you absolutely positively can NOT get premium then there is no way that you can get the best 10*s without years of farming or being that 1 in 999999999999999999999999 kind of person that gets 15 of the best rares in one day no matter the drop rates(essentially you either cheat or the hand of providence makes them drop). Ie, unless you have excess cash irl then EWH is likely not economical(the wands in the AQ shop are Fire, Ice, and Dark, with one requiring a 10* for trade). Btw, weren't elemental changers still in the 400k+ range(if not million+ for the good ones?).

please.. stop.

no

Wands are probably the cheapest weapons you can buy in the market. If you have premium you can get decent 10*s for like 30k. If you can't get 10*'s, you simply get a boatload of Dio Regalia's. They are slightly behind Remnelia in SATK and almost equal in TATK.

[Sanguine2009]

yes wands are much cheaper compared to other weapons, but recommending remi and dio? no.

neither are decent choices in sh, bare minimum acceptable choices would be things like windmill with latent, ex dragon with ex set, or any other wand with 900+ att (windmill is only ok because of the latent) neither of the wands you mentioned break 800 in t att and neither break 900 in either stat.

[UnLucky]

Yes, if you can't buy 10*'s, definitely pick up a 10*, another 10* with a 10* unit set, or any of the higher end 10* or 11* weapons.

Good advice.


EWH is not economical though. You could get Wand Reactor and Dark Masteries, therefore increasing your tech damage and your wand's S-Atk.

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000j4Odq5dfdsI2 HSqxIbGA00000ib000008

[Sanguine2009]

considering the gear i mentioned drop rate is relatively decent, yes it is good advice. even the best wands barely cut it on sh, things like remi or dio simply are not enough

[UnLucky]

Yeah, and what do you farm them with? 10*s?

[Arksenth]

Obviously you just run around with a +4 Umbra Stick and Lucky Rise units until a 10* drops.

Then you pick up the 10* and continue to run around with the Umbra Stick anyway.

Duuuuuh.

[qoxolg]

From what he told us, he is still in VH. In VH, Dio or Remn should be more then enough. Once he hits SH, he can go after the windmills and other 10*'s.

And even then, the only part where Techer 'barely cuts it' is when solo'ing the SH bosses, but a mere 100 ATK stat increase won't make much of a difference. The HP bar of those bosses is so large because there are things like 'fury', 'S roll', 'weak bullit', 'Backhand smash', 'Deadly Archer', etc.

Which brings me back to the point of... :wacko:

[Takatsuki]

So I was having a discussion with my teammates on Techer and I came up with an idea on how to fix it. Maybe.

Okay first of all, each branch on the tree would have distinct purposes. They already kind of exist, but we'll emphasize them.

Wind Tree = Wand Melee Tree
Light Tree = Support Tree
Dark Tree = Tech Attack Tree

First off, aside from the upcoming changes to Wand Lovers, almost everything that's already on the tree will stay the same, except we'll be changing how two skills work:

Wand Gear = Gains meter with both charged AND uncharged techs.
Resta Advance = In addition to boosting the healing factor of Resta, it also reduces it's charge time.

Now, the main focus of my plan here is to make Techer using a Wand completely distinct from Techer focusing on Techs and Forces. To do this, we're adding 2 new skills to the Wind tree.

Normal Tech High Advance = Increases the power of uncharged Techs by 2% per level (20% max).
Normal Tech Refund = When activating a Tech, it consumes the required PP to cast, but if it is released as an uncharged Tech, part of the PP cost is returned to you. 10% PP regeneration per level, with 50% regenerated at level 5 (max level).

This makes Techer fight completely differently. With these skills, plus the various existing Wand buffs, Techer becomes a straight up melee class capable of rapid firing charged Techs and smashing enemies with Wand Gear explosions.

Then, what else do we do about the other trees? Well, I had some ideas.

First off, on the Dark tree, we want to focus on dealing high charged Tech damage. So what do we do?

A good place to start would be to add Tech JA Advance, just like Force has, to the Dark Tree. Then, we're actually gonna move Element Weak Hit from the Light tree to the Dark tree. That's a 30% damage boost right there, assuming you are hitting an enemy's weakness.

Then, as for the Light tree, again, we want to focus on support. First off, we're gonna make Extend Assist work like Extend Assist + Adrenaline (from FI tree), which is how it should have been in the first place.

Then, we're gonna add a 1 point skill below Territory Burst, called Instant Support. When Territory Burst is activated, Instant Support makes Shifta and Deband automatically release a full charged buff without charging it. Again, this ONLY works when you're using Territory Burst.

Then, there's gonna be another 2 skills tied to Territory Burst, Shifta Element Boost and Deband Element Guard. For Shifta Element Boost, when you activate Shifta while in Territory Burst, you will also add 1 (per level, of 10) to the target's weapon's element rating while your Shifta remains in effect. Even if their element is at 50, it will still raise it up to 60 at max level.

Deband Element Guard on the other hand works the opposite way. It takes their weapon's element and transforms that into an element resistance. It grants a 2% damage reduction per level (of 10), but only to that element and only while your Deband from Territory Burst is in effect.

Thoughts?

[Saffran]

Takatsuki -> this is going all over the place, but yeah, that would change things.
One point though, uncharged techs in PSO2 are close to worthless. If you want a bonus to uncharged techs to be meaningful, it needs to be like 50% per point and go on for 10 points.

[Omega-z]

@Takatsuki - I would change how the Tree would look like completely.

Skills:

HP Up / Lv.10 / Passive - Default 3 sp to move on. +50 HP.

High PP Up / Lv.5 / Passive - 2~3 sp to move on. +75 PP.

High T-Def Up / Lv.5 / Passive - 3 sp to move on. +150 T-def.

PP Restraint / Lv.10 / Passive - +40% to normal PP regain.

Photon Flare / Lv.5 / Active - 3 sp to move on. +30% from total T-atk & +30% to boosted SE. 2 min duration with 45 sec. cool down ~ 30 sec. at max.

Photon Adv. Burst / Lv.5 / Passive - +20% added to T-atk & SE on Photon Fare.

High T-atk Up / Lv.5 / Passive - 1,2,3 sp to move on. +150 T-atk.

Wand Gear / Lv.1 / Passive - 1 sp to move on. Gives normal wand attacks a blast when its bar is charged - both charged and uncharged fills the bar gauge.

Wand Gear Adv. / Lv.5 / Passive - adds +1~2 explosions at max from the base explosion in session to other targets or hit boxes. Distance 1x ~ 3x with +200% damage at max.

Territory Stance / Lv.5 / Active - 1 sp to move on. adds 2x Distance & -3 ~ -7 PP at max for supports. 10 min duration with 1 min cool down.

Super Treatment / Lv.5 / Passive - Gives 3x regain during status affects & 25% HP when healed.

Extend Assist / Lv.5 / Passive - 2 sp to move on. gives +45 sec. per tick & a max duration of 5 mins.

Shifta Advance / Lv.5 / Passive - +40% to total attack with +25% to critical rate at max.

Deband Advance / Lv.5 / Passive - 3 sp to move on. +40% to total defensive.

Deband Protect / Lv.5 / Passive - +15% in defense to all damage & 75% chance surviving with 1 hp when an attack would incapacitate you.

Normal JA attack / Lv.5 / Passive - 2 sp to move on. +30% also allows Wand Gear to receive the JA bonus too.

Wand Reactor / Lv.5 / Passive - 3 sp to move on. +40% of total T-atk as S-atk.

High S-atk Up / Lv.5 / Passive - 3 sp to move on. +150 S-atk.

Wand Lovers / Lv.10 / Active - +35% to S-atk at max with full Gear gauge. Mirage Escape replace with Step during Activation. 2 min. duration with a 45 sec. cool down.

Freeze Ignition / Lv.5 / Passive - 3 sp to move on. When attacking gives explosions & damage to Frozen targets which causes splash damage & Frozen SE to near by targets. +400% to Frozen targets with +50% to splash & +10% to SE splash.

Ice Keep / Lv.5 / Passive - 3 sp to move on. Increase the amount of hits up to 12 at max when Frozen.

PP Convert / Lv.10 / Active - +5 PP regain for -30% HP. 2 min. duration with 45 sec. cool down.

Poison Ignition / Lv.5 / Passive - 3 sp to move on. When attacking gives explosions & damage to Poison targets which causes splash damage & Poison SE to near by targets. +300% to Poison targets with +75% to splash & +20% to SE splash.

Normal Tech Charge / Lv.5 / Passive - 3 sp to move on. +30% to normal techs with +50% to reducing PP cost at max.

Element Weak Hit / Lv.10 / Passive - +50% when using the targets weakness.

Rare Mastery Techer / Lv.5 / Passive - 1 sp to move on. +100 at max when equipping 10* weapons.

Wand Up / Lv.5 / Passive - Increases Wand damage by +50%.

Mirage Escape / Lv.1 / Passive - 1 sp to move on. Default dodge.

Mirage Flash / Lv.1 / Passive - Gives a faster burst form of Mirage Escape.

Just Reversal / Lv.1 / Passive - Allows you to recover when knocked down.

Talis Gear / Lv.1 / Passive - 1 sp to move on. Gives Talis's normal attacks the ability to act like a Slicer and be Charged. Slicer attacks bounce hit up to 5 targets, Charged also hits 5 times with total T-atk multiplied 5.0% like a PA. takes 2.5 sec. to release, no PP cost.

Talis Reactor / Lv.5 / Passive - +40% of total S-atk as T-atk.

Edit: also have an added ability based on the Wand to give either a 20% to Bind, Injury, Jellen, Zalure or Virus when they attack with both Melee or Tech.

The Tree would have have more branches off the main core which will decease SP use and get you to your goal. I did add the Skills from Force that wasn't useful and made them better. I would give the Masteries to Force which would be reworked also to help Force out. This is just one idea how I would fit it.

Edit: Idea'd Skill Tree look
[SPOILER-BOX]

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=959&pictureid=37753

[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Sanguine2009]

eww no not even techer wants photon flare. just give us some passives we have enough actives also did you really just take the worst skills from the force ice tree and try to give them to techer? the rest of your ideas are fine but we dont need or want forces unwanted trash

[Omega-z]

lol yeah, But at the same time PF actually is like a Wand Lovers but in reverse. At the moment PF helps WG damage and increase SE to happen during it. Also makes sense to do it since it cuts your HP just like PP Convert does. The only other weapon that sort of benefits is Talis. PF should of been on Techer from the start from how it operates. I also set it up on the tree that its not in the way. you have only 4 actives to worry about one is a stance and the other three are small boosts in Melee, Tech and PP. That can be reworked to last longer.

At the same time this will give Forces what they wanted a true "Stance" that boost's Tech damage and not give Sega an accuse saying they have PF.

[Resta]

should i get wind masteries and wand gear and miss out on pp convert or get pp converrt and have 11 or so xtra pts to go where??

[Sanguine2009]

depends, are going for a caster or melee build?

[Resta]

depends, are going for a caster or melee build?

te/fo so melee but good tech i think lol...

[Sanguine2009]

te/fo is awful at melee, i would get the pp convert skills for it though

[AlphawingEX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW7RPIoIN2A
Someone asked me to record a SH Time Attack, and so I did. I just wanted to show you guys Techer's SH Time Attack Potential. I'm still working on maxing out my Techer and Hunter, so until then, I'll only upload a part of my Time Attack. Once I put more points into much needed areas, I'll record again to see if I can beat my previous 10:41 VH Sanctum TA.

Note: I ended up getting a 11:47 if you were wondering.

[Link1275]

should i get wind masteries and wand gear and miss out on pp convert or get pp converrt and have 11 or so xtra pts to go where??

Neither option is very good. This is a decent enough skeleton build for a techer that wants PPC and Wand Gear. http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06fbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbIn 0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000jkbdoldjqxHXI n00000ib000008



Edit: Idea'd Skill Tree look
[SPOILER-BOX]

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=959&pictureid=37753

[/SPOILER-BOX]
No, absolutely not. No, no, no. We do not need 4+ static atk bonuses before the good stuff. Nope. Notta. Never. If sega implemented that I do believe that Techer would cease to function(if not exist for all intents and purposes). Also, when was the last time you looked at a talis? There is currently only one Talis in the entire game with S-Atk on it(according to cirno). Ergo, your idea for a Talis Reactor skill wouldn't work. And if Talises did have another stat on them it should be R-Atk not S-Atk(as we don't need another T-Atk/S-Atk hybrid weapon).

[UnLucky]

So I was having a discussion with my teammates on Techer and I came up with an idea on how to fix it. Maybe.

Okay first of all, each branch on the tree would have distinct purposes. They already kind of exist, but we'll emphasize them.

Wind Tree = Wand Melee Tree
Light Tree = Support Tree
Dark Tree = Tech Attack Tree

Thoughts?
I'm liking it. However, a lot is tied to Territory Burst. Your support capability evaporates when it's over. That, and S/D would still be very minor, even with 72 SP directly in nothing but buff skills, with TB only at 1.

Also where would you put EWH in the Dark Tree? Remember it also boosts melee damage, so it should still be accessible with a heavy investment in the Wind Tree.


Neither option is very good. This is a decent enough skeleton build for a techer that wants PPC and Wand Gear. http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06fbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbIn 0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000jkbdoldjqxHXI n00000ib000008
He's playing as a Te/Fo, there is no need for maxed PPC.

And I think that proposed "Talis Reactor" skill would be from your total stats, in order for a pure melee build to make back some of their tech damage with this skill.

[gigawuts]

I'm liking it. However, a lot is tied to Territory Burst. Your support capability evaporates when it's over. That, and S/D would still be very minor, even with 72 SP directly in nothing but buff skills, with TB only at 1.

Also where would you put EWH in the Dark Tree? Remember it also boosts melee damage, so it should still be accessible with a heavy investment in the Wind Tree.


He's playing as a Te/Fo, there is no need for maxed PPC.

And I think that proposed "Talis Reactor" skill would be from your total stats, in order for a pure melee build to make back some of their tech damage with this skill.

I dunno, maxed PPC is pretty god tier for a nafoie spamming build. Sustained nafoie for 30 straight seconds is just nnf.

[pkemr4]

how do te/hu usually affix there gear and stat there mags...? ive been wanting to try out te/hu because it looks pretty fun.

[Xaelouse]

Full s-atk unless you're deluded into thinking your techs will do any meaningful damage

[Sanguine2009]

i would go a power 3 and a tech/strike split soul like ringa actually and favor hp and att over pp for the 3rd+ affixs as wand melee being ya main offense makes additional pp less important than other classes.
a full s att affix build works well too but never go full t att for te/hu

for mags just go s att pure, you could try a hybrid mag but its less effective and not really worth it

[AlphawingEX]

Full s-atk unless you're deluded into thinking your techs will do any meaningful damage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW7RPIoIN2A

Have you seen my video lol? I have nowhere near full investment in S-atk, and I think my techs are doing some "meaningful damage".

Heck, while I'm at it, I might as well show you guys my Skill Trees.

Wind Tree:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000jkbdqHXfdsI2 aFj4NI200000Ib000008

Dark Tree:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000jkbdojdsI2as qxuX00000lb000008

Like I said before, my build isn't "the ideal Techer build" but it's a start if I can fly through SH spawns.

Also, if you guys would like, I'll tell you the affixes on my weapons/units.

[Link1275]

Full s-atk unless you're deluded into thinking your techs will do any meaningful damage
Correction, Full S-Atk if you're deluded enough to think that your techs will do absolutely no damage and that you can equip the best wands in the game without T-Atk boosts.

If not:
this
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06eAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI nqnGKsNdqInfJiGA000007b000009b000000lb000009b00000 0jkbdqjdsjqxHXIb00000ib000008
or this
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06eAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI nqnGKsNdqInfJiGA000007b000009b000000lb000009b00000 0jkbdqHXfds9b00000ib000008
are both common as skeleton builds.

As for mag stats, depending on your race you want to build for having at least 685-ish base T-Atk, maybe 700 if you had a PWand and wanted to equip it for some reason. You will also probably want 420 Dex as a safe dex number to go with. Throw the rest into S-Atk.

Edit:

PSO2 ???????? SH TA Te/Hu ?? ??? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW7RPIoIN2A)

Have you seen my video lol? I have nowhere near full investment in S-atk, and I think my techs are doing some "meaningful damage".

Heck, while I'm at it, I might as well show you guys my Skill Trees.

Wind Tree:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000jkbdqHXfdsI2 aFj4NI200000Ib000008

Dark Tree:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000jkbdojdsI2as qxuX00000lb000008

Like I said before, my build isn't "the ideal Techer build" but it's a start if I can fly through SH spawns.

Also, if you guys would like, I'll tell you the affixes on my weapons/units.
You double linked your dark build.
Edit, nvm my browser or the site must have been malfunctioning.
Also, on the subject of affixes, Power III, Tech III, insert preferred/needed soul here, and anything else that you might need here.

[UnLucky]

I dunno, maxed PPC is pretty god tier for a nafoie spamming build. Sustained nafoie for 30 straight seconds is just nnf.

It's the only tech that would need it, and max PPC isn't even enough since you need 70 PP/s to fully sustain it.

With lv6 you can get 5-6 casts with a full PP bar. Maxed means 7-8 before you empty out.

As Techer you've got Sazan and Namegid to play with, though, so there's less need for Safoie spam.


Though it's definitely more useful on a Te/Fo than Te/Hu at least.

[Omega-z]

Link1275 - It's two at most for 5 SP. Which they give much better bonuses then the affixes can. Then you can get multiple nice things. Also this is Techer, which would be infested in S/T - atk , that too a Slicer base attack is melee in nature and a Talis is Tech so it would have a natural S/T - atk combination. Avg. Techer would get 450 extra T-atk with it, This would allow for more use with Talis as a Techer and would make sense since there's a T to S conversion already. That too many ppl want a S to T conversion for a weapon. The Talis is the best choice for that to work and can take advantage of the Force tree as well.

[Sanguine2009]

it does not help you would force us to get even more useless things like the ignitions to get the decent stuff

[Omega-z]

The Ignitions had been changed and sinc better in the Fan-made tree then what they are now. And good stuff is not just % mods. That's the one of the reasons why Sega fails at balance to many % mods.

[Sanguine2009]

the ignitions will always be awful until bosses can be statused

[Omega-z]

Well for big bosses you use other means then SE's. Since SE's won't ever effect big boss. That's the biggest down side on Techer. On the Fan-made Tree I added multi-box hit's on Wands and Talises to add more damage to a wider/larger area of a big boss taking into account for there multiple hit boxes. Wands melee would get 4.25% more damage / WG would get 8.51% more damage, Talis normal attack would get 2.83% / Charged 10.52% and Techs 2.15% as a Te/Hu.

[qoxolg]

Alright, here are my idea’s for a complete rebuild of both the Techer and Force skills trees. In short: I removed all of the elemental bullshit. What I’ve tried to do, is removing the whole pidgin hole thing we have going right now. I tried to come up with skills that give more options, rather then just damage bonuses. I will only explain the skills I added or changed.

Techer tree
[spoiler-box]
http://jojo.sappusx.com/Techertree.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

JA Bonus
This is simply a flat out JA Bonus for all damage types and attacks.

Zero Range Stance
When close to enemies, techs will do more damage, but will do less damage when further away.
@ lv1, Zero range = 10% up, long range = 10% down
@lv10 Zero Range = 30% up, long range = 5% down.
This skill will also work on wand explosions. Maybe it should also work on RATK based attacks.

In your face!
During Zero Range Stance, hitting the head of the enemy will do more damage
@lv1 = 1% up,
@lv10 = 10% up

Zero Range up
During Zero Range Stance, further increases Zero Range Damage
@lv1 = 1% up,
@lv 10 = 10% up

Offensive Focus
During Zero Range Stance, decrease the range and radius of techs, but increases power.
@lv1= 15% less range/radius, 5% more damage,
@lv10 50% less range/radius, 20% more damage

Wand Fusion
Increases the Radius of the wand explosions, also adds the ability to hit multiple hitboxes.
@lv1= 1.1x radius, @lv5= 1.5x radius, two hitboxes,
@lv10 2x radius, three hitboxes.

Wand Lovers
Wand Lovers gets a complete change. It will be more like katana combat: Short burst of damage with finish. Wand Lovers will have the following effects:
- Gear gauge full
- Wand changes into melee weapon: The charged versions of techs can be used as a PA using the combo system. Instead of switching the pallet, the wand will be able to block attacks (stacks with just guard from HU tree).
- Mirage Escape gets replaced by Step.

Duration and cool down the same as Katana Combat.

Lovers JA Bonus
Adds a JA Bonus during Wand Lovers

@lv1 5% up,
@lv5 15% up.

Lovers Escape
Same as Combat Escape during Wand Lovers.

Wand Break Up
Or Wand Divorce.. whatever sounds good..

This is the equivalent of Combat Finish. When activating, the wand will be put in the ground and detonates within 3 seconds, creating a huge blast, comparable to Cougars bomb attack. The radius is larger then Combat Finish, but the power is lower with 200% @ lv5

Wand Meltdown
The biggest issue of Techer, is it’s lack of burst damage. Wand Meltdown lets you deplete your Wand Gear Gauge to do a powerful attack. While holding the attack button, you will charge and upon releasing the button you will do the attack. There are 3 levels, each will deplete one of the gear bars. By holding down the attack button larger will charge level 2 and level 3 of the attack.

@lv10: Level 1 attack: 350% damage,
level 2 attack: 750% damage,
level 3 attack 1500% damage.

Territory Stance
New stance that will boost tech damage within the support range. It’s boost is lower then Zero Range, but his no downside.

@lv1 1% up
@lv10 20% up

Territory Burst
Boosts the range of support techs, but now always active during Territory Stance.

Territory Up
During Territory Stance boosts techs damage

@lv1 1% up,
@lv10 10% up.

Offensive Burst
During Territory Stance boosts the range and radius of offensive techniques at the expense of damage
@lv 1 1.1x range/radius, 20% damage down.
@lv10 2x range/radius, 10% damage down.

Long Live Support!
Increases the duration of support techs. In case of Deband and Shifta, both the ticks AND the max duration gets increased, @ lv 10 it will give ticks of 1 minute with a max duration of 4 minutes. Zanverse’, Megiverse’ and Zondeels (suction only) duration will double.

Shifta Up & Deband Up
Both will double the effect @ max level.

Lucky SE
During shifta, random SE’s will be inflicted to enemies.

@lv1 5% chance of inflicting SE with an attack,
@lv10 20% chance of inflicting SE with an attack.

Gotta go fast!
Increases attack animations during shifta.

@lv1 5% increase,
@lv10 20% increase

SE resistance Up
Decreases the chance of getting inflicted by SE’s

@lv1 10% decrease,
@lv10 50% decrease.

Wall
Adds the chance to completely negate the damage of an attack

@lv1 1% chance,
@lv10 10% chance

Mirage Cancel
At the expense of 10PP, cancel Mirage Escape by using an attack.

Mirage Charge
When using mirage while a tech is charged, you will perform a dash attack like assault buster

@lv1 100% damage (normal attack, based on T-ATK),
@lv5 300% damage

Stance Dance
This will be a skill that every class with stances should get. It lets the player use one single button to instantly alternate between two stances. This will allow a more fluid way of playing with stances. The whole duration and cool down gets removed, because it’s just dumb and makes classes like Fighter tedious to play with.

DON’T IGNITE MY ZONDEEL!1!1111
Other players can’t ignite your zondeels anymore :D AHAHHHHAHAHAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA FUCKERS!



Now on to Force Skill Tree:

[spoiler-box]
http://jojo.sappusx.com/Forcetree.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

Rod Gear
Rod gear will have the same system as the sword and wand. It gets charged by using normal techs or rod melee. What it does: It allows to charge the tech a second time by holding the button, resulting in a tech with twice the power and twice the radius. The second charge will have the same PP cost as a regular charge and it will use up one bar of the gear.

Charged Tech up
Increases the power of charged techs

@lv1: 5% up,
@lv10 20% up

Second Charge PP Save
Reduces the amount of PP needed for the second charge of the rod gear.

@lv1: 10% reduction,
@lv10 50% reduction

Charged Tech Up 2
Same as 1

Charge Speed up
Decreases the time needed to charge a tech.

@lv1 -0.1s,
@lv10 -0.3s

Normal Tech Up 1 & 2
Increases the power of normal techs. Same as the old skill but now a much larger multiplier. SEGA could also simply change normal techs, so it could have a normal multiplier.

@lv1: 10% up
@lv10: 75% up

Normal Tech JA PP Save
Save PP when Just Attacking normal techs.

@lv1: 10% cost reduction,
@lv5 50% cost reduction.

Long Range Stance
Increases tech damage when enemies are far away (outside of support range). Belongs to the same stance family as the two on the Techer tree and can also be Stance Danced.

@lv1: 10% up long range, 10% down zero range.
@lv10 30% up long range, 5% down zero range.

Talis Gear
Charges by using techs. When trowing a card, while holding down the attack button, the Talis will suck in enemies with the range of Zondeel. Sucking in enemies will slowly decrease the Gear gauge, when releasing the attack button the suction will stop after a second.

Long Range Up
Increases the power of techs during Long Range Stance.

@lv1: 1% up,
@lv10: 10% up.

Resta Bonus
After using resta, the player gets a small health bonus every 5 seconds for one minute.

@lv1: 1% health every 5 seconds,
@lv10: 10% health every 5 seconds.

Super Healer
Active skill that removes the ticks of Resta and puts them all in one tick.

@lv1: Duration 60s, cooldown 180s.
@lv10 Duration 60s, cooldown 90s

Devine protection
During Super Healer, while using resta, adds Iron Will to the healed players (doesn’t stack with Iron Will)

@lv1: 10% chance of surviving, duration 5s.
@lv5: 50% chance of surviving, duration 30s.

Angels Touch
When using resta during Super Healer, there will be a chance that fallen players will be revived.

@lv1: 10% chance,
@lv10: 50% chance.

Flame JA Charge Cut
Cuts the charge time of fire techs when Just Attacking.

@lv1: -0.1s,
@lv5: -0.3

Bolt Tech PP save
Same as old one, but less skill points needed

Wind bounce
Couldn’t think of anything good for wind, but here I go:
Zan will now bounce when hitting a floor, wall or enemy.

@lv1: bounces once,
@lv5: can bounce up to 5 times.

Purifying Light
Light techs will have a change to instantly kill a darker. For small fries it will be unreduced. For larger enemies, the chance will be halved. mini bosses can’t get instantly killed but have a change to have their HP cut in halve.

@lv1: 5% chance on small fries, 2,5% chance on big enemies, 1% chance to halve the energy of a mini boss.
@lv10: 20% chance on small fries, 10% chance on big enemies, 5% chance to halve the energy of a mini boss.

Dark Vampire
Dark techs will drain the HP of the enemies and heals the player.

@lv1: 0.2% of damage will be drained, @lv5: 1% of damage will be drained

Photon Glare
This was originally a joke skill for a little artwork I did:
[spoiler-box]
http://jojo.sappusx.com/ok372s.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

It will be the opposite of War Cry: It will scare the enemies away and lets the poor force lose agro.



Well, that was all! Someone else can do the other skill trees, because I am lazy and I am probably wasting my time :wacko: