How viable are Knuckle fighters?

[Nibiria]

I haven't seen many videos of them or anything related to them (I'm pretty new). Is their DPS bad? Are they just uncommon? If they're good, how would I go about building one (skill tree, mag, etc)?

[MetalDude]

It's mostly the range. Backhand Smash is fantastic and Straight Charge is decent for mobbing, but I find most FI weapons fit into a certain niche purpose so it's not really common to see people using just one specific weapon type.

[TaigaUC]

I think most knuckles are pretty ugly, hard to get or expensive, too.
I haven't had any luck with good knuckles drops.

[Lostbob117]

They're Viable. Just do what you think is fun, this game really has no pvp. So a lot of the time stats don't matter, but you want to be able to do things in XQs.

[Xaelouse]

their DPS is top. It's just only using knuckles on FI is bad. Pair it up with another weapon at least, preferably twin daggers

[Enforcer MKV]

I haven't seen many videos of them or anything related to them (I'm pretty new). Is their DPS bad? Are they just uncommon? If they're good, how would I go about building one (skill tree, mag, etc)?

They're about as viable as any other weapon. I have lots of fun punching things when I'm going FI.

[NoiseHERO]

I've been pure knuckle for past year, untill katana train started.

Was mediocre till they got buffed and got backhand smash.

But now they're- well. Viable is a good description. Just make sure you have lot's of PP.

[Nibiria]

I've been pure knuckle for past year, untill katana train started.

Was mediocre till they got buffed and got backhand smash.

But now they're- well. Viable is a good description. Just make sure you have lot's of PP.

what skillset do you use then? is the one in the build thread pretty good? I'm trying to branch out from my hunter :P

[Geistritter]

Got a friend who loves using Quake Howling on mobs, primarily for spreading status. And because he's now doing 150% more damage to the enemies he just hit with it, another punch or two to the ground is normally enough to finish them.

Don't waste your time using only one weapon, though, especially as Fighter. It's not a question of whether people who use X weapon only are bad, it's that everyone who uses only one weapon is bad. The others are there for a reason.

Either way, Backhand Blow is one of your best options for single target damage, especially if that target isn't going anywhere for awhile.

[Nibiria]

Got a friend who loves using Quake Howling on mobs, primarily for spreading status. And because he's now doing 150% more damage to the enemies he just hit with it, another punch or two to the ground is normally enough to finish them.

Don't waste your time using only one weapon, though, especially as Fighter. It's not a question of whether people who use X weapon only are bad, it's that everyone who uses only one weapon is bad. The others are there for a reason.

Either way, Backhand Blow is one of your best options for single target damage, especially if that target isn't going anywhere for awhile.

What falls under Fighter weapons? Twin Daggers and Dual Sabers? I don't know much about them really, just thought knuckles looked cool. Is Br the best subclass for them, or is Hu better?

[MetalDude]

FI can use T.Daggers, Double Sabers, and Knuckles. HU is commonly subbed mostly for damage, but also because you still get access to far superior crowd controlling tools like Partizan's Assault Buster and Sword's Ride Slasher.

[Zorafim]

Knuckles are amazing. Not by themselves, sure. But if you want to take down a single target, you can't beat them. They're definitely a high skill, high reward weapon type. You need to know when to use them, how to use them properly, and how to time your defenses.

Their strengths are that they're fairly quick, they do a ton of damage per hit, and it's trivial to cancel out of any animation. Their weaknesses is that they have no range, so it's nearly impossible to hit more than one enemy at a time. Their defensive move is also difficult to use. But incredibly rewarding once you master it, both from a practical standpoint, and from a pleasurable one.

Knuckles are one of my favorite melee weapons, from a purely gameplay point of view. Highly specialized, and highly rewarding. Pair it with some mobbing weapon (say, sword), and you'll have a really useful tool to work with.

[Lumpen Thingy]

my favorite fighter weapon next to the double saber

[gigawuts]

Knuckles have always been fun weapons, but not necessarily effective ones.

Now they are effective at bitchslapping enemies into walls across the grid with backhand smash and pummeling most things into submission.

Their single issue is range, and that brief windup time on backhand smash when something has a split second that it can move out of its pinhead-sized range.

As mentioned, their downside is their complete lack of range, and also their incredible reliance on having a large PP pool. I suggest no less than 135 PP, for 3x backhand smash. This is one of those weapons where you really notice the extra PP. They also lack an option to deal with annoying shield enemies that are standing close enough that one shield will guard another's weak point. You'd think quake howling would be immune to shield bounce but lolno.

Verdict: Hell yes invest into these weapons, they are so much fun. Get the hang of knuckleducking and start ducking things like a boss. A tip for that - the invuln only kicks in when your head is as low as it'll go. When you're lowering your head you're vulnerable, and when you're raising it again you're vulnerable. This means that it has a period of vulnerability between pressing your duck key and when you get your invuln frames, unlike step. Adjust your timing for that. I also advise investing 2 sp into step advance on the tree that doesn't have step attack, since the two skills will stack up to a maximum of .2 seconds. This becomes a big boon to knuckles as well since you have no autoguard or just guard option, just iframes with set durations.

[Nibiria]

Gigawuts, first of all I feel like I know your name from somewhere. So it's awesome you responded to my thread. Second, how would a skill tree look ideally? Third, how do I get higher PP? Through items or mag or is there a part in the skill tree for it?

:EDIT: Felt like I should explain some of my reasoning behind being so insistent on having a skill tree to go with. Well, I don't want to screw it up and have to make a new character/spend AC to fix my tree. My goal with this is to first get an understanding of it myself, then one day write a guide on it, so that there are more guides out there for newbies like me.

[Link1275]

Gigawuts, first of all I feel like I know your name from somewhere. So it's awesome you responded to my thread. Second, how would a skill tree look ideally? Third, how do I get higher PP? Through items or mag or is there a part in the skill tree for it?

:EDIT: Felt like I should explain some of my reasoning behind being so insistent on having a skill tree to go with. Well, I don't want to screw it up and have to make a new character/spend AC to fix my tree. My goal with this is to first get an understanding of it myself, then one day write a guide on it, so that there are more guides out there for newbies like me.
For Fighters of any kind:

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06InbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI nqnGKsNdqInfJiGA000006ebHoGBboGKIbcAibr0000fbJdJ29 KcAi20000lb2QHSfbncDGAnIbp0000f4OIk2XcKjbnbnIk0000 84Odq5didI2HS4QHN4NI200000ebqB4NdncKsNJ200006

I also included builds for every other class that are optimized to be fighter subs.

[TaigaUC]

That's the build I'm using on my fighters.
I don't think there's much point in the other options.

[gigawuts]

My recommendation for having multiple HU trees:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06dAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0jeb IoqnGKsN6JiGA000007BHnGBboGFkBeAGDIo0000ib000000lb 000009b000000lb0000000Ib000008

My recommendation for having just a single HU tree:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06dAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0jeb kbqBGXcBdDInfcAfGAIb00000lBHnGBboGFkBeAGDIo0000ib0 00000lb000009b000000lb0000000Ib000008

135 PP minimum recommended - you can achieve this easily by getting any number of unit sets and giving them quartz soul & spirita boost, with power 3 and even more affixes too if you want to invest a bit. 135 is exactly 3x backhand smash and over 4x deadly archer, 150 is 5x deadly archer. I go with 150 myself by using a 10* Prim unit set (any unit set with +19 PP base will do - Prim is just cheap) with quartz/pow 3/spirita boost on two units, quartz/spirita 3/spirita boost on one unit, and quartz/anythingIwant on the weapon. This unit set is useful for braver as well.

I find that the times I want OMGDPSNOW is on things that can't, aren't, or won't be SEed. Chase Bind is a novel, yet occasionally useful skill for 1 sp (the 10 sp investment is for the slower hitting HU weapons really, since FI weapons tend to hit so many darn times) - Chase Advance at 5 SP for 20% is still a nice boost when it kicks in.

That PP Slayer skill is pretty much +200 satk all of the time though, if you manage your PP right (which is honestly not hard at all, and most of us keep our PP below 50% almost the entire time we fight). PP Slayer will kick in the instant your PP is exactly at or falls below 50% (be mindful of hidden decimal values - 50.01% will display as 50% but still won't count for PP Slayer). This means with 135 PP, the first BHS will bring you to 90 PP, then when the second BHS brings you to 45 PP it'll gain the PP Slayer bonus. At first I wasn't a big fan of this skill, but given the lack of consistent alternatives that aren't SATK Ups it's the way to go IMO.

edit:
Here's a list of unit sets and a complete sum of their bonuses, including base stats of units.
http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%82%BB%E3%83%83%E3%83%88%E5%8A%B9%E6% 9E%9C%EF%BC%88%E5%AE%9F%E6%95%B0%EF%BC%89
A couple notable examples for a 19 PP set include the レサン (resan) set, but that's pretty lacking in striking defense and has 0 striking resistance. The カルブン set (kalbun?) is better, but only has +60 ratk and tatk - no satk. Other unit sets are 2 pieces, so you can use other units to add more PP than these sets, but either completely lack defense or are pretty expensive. Hence why I went with the プリムラ (primra) set.

[UnLucky]

For Fighters of any kind:

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06InbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI nqnGKsNdqInfJiGA000006ebHoGBboGKIbcAibr0000fbJdJ29 KcAi20000lb2QHSfbncDGAnIbp0000f4OIk2XcKjbnbnIk0000 84Odq5didI2HS4QHN4NI200000ebqB4NdncKsNJ200006

I also included builds for every other class that are optimized to be fighter subs.

Those builds are hardly optimized for Fighter, even within their own trees. SRoll for Fighter, but no APPR? No focus on Zondeel, the number one hybrid tech? And Deadly Archer can be charged, you know, so why so much focus on katana skills? But even if other classes were specifically built as Fighter subs, and introduced some interesting gameplay elements, at the end of the day Fi/Hu is the most powerful choice.


And Nibira, you should also consider PP Slayer. While Chase Advance isn't a bad option, it does not work on large bosses since they are immune to all status effects. But since half of the Fighter's tree is Chase, and the other half is bad, you're left with minimal Stat Up skills or PP Slayer.

It works out rather well with knuckles, too, since the bonus applies after the PP is consumed for the PA. So if you have 135 PP and use three Backhand Smashes in a row, you will get PP Slayer on two out of three. Then all you need to do is make sure to use the next one before you reach 90 PP again to keep your bonus.

I've got a link to builds for all classes, including Fighter, in my signature. Let me know if you've got any questions

[SakoHaruo]

Best Fi/Hu build

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06dHbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkdslb 6ebIowNjmxI2Jfk6bn00000ibrIqnHNrsfJjNrA0000IbJdJ29 KcAi20000lb2QHSfbncDGAnIbp0000f4OIk2XcKjbnbnIk0000 84Odq5didI2HS4QHN4NI200000ebqB4NdncKsNJ200006

[Link1275]

Best Fi/Hu build

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06dHbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkdslb 6ebIowNjmxI2Jfk6bn00000ibrIqnHNrsfJjNrA0000IbJdJ29 KcAi20000lb2QHSfbncDGAnIbp0000f4OIk2XcKjbnbnIk0000 84Odq5didI2HS4QHN4NI200000ebqB4NdncKsNJ200006
Actually that's one of the worst Fi/Hu builds EVER. Adrenaline is worthless without a techer or force sub to actually give you the Shifta and Deband to use it. Chase Bind is a novelty with fighter weapons really. You should always grab all gear skills. Static boosts are not needed/useful(HP Boost). Half Line Boost is a rather overall not useful skill as it requires your HP to be low, and against mobs the status effects will only be useful for activating Chase Advance(and even then they will die in 1-2 hits less), and it is altogether useless against most bosses(and with Automate Halfline at +10 this skill can never be used). The hunter tree is worthless for DPS as it doesn't have a single skill that actually helps damage enough and often enough to be useful.


Those builds are hardly optimized for Fighter, even within their own trees. SRoll for Fighter, but no APPR? No focus on Zondeel, the number one hybrid tech? And Deadly Archer can be charged, you know, so why so much focus on katana skills? But even if other classes were specifically built as Fighter subs, and introduced some interesting gameplay elements, at the end of the day Fi/Hu is the most powerful choice.


APPR isn't something that I would think of as necessary for Fighter(Multi-hit normal attacks for the win, while knuckles might need that if they plan on BHS spamming, it wouldn't mix well with PP Slayer).

And sorry my bad for forgetting to throw TB on the Techer tree and not giving the FO tree some more Lightning[/sarcasm] TBH, when it comes to Braver there isn't much that you can use on it subbing it or maining it. It's straightforward and the skills are simple due to its intended hybrid design(the skill tree for actually using it as a hybrid would like this: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000lb0000000Ibf 4SdncKrIJ2ik0000f).

[UnLucky]

Haha, Sako had a pretty standard PP Slayer build before editing it away

Something similar to this. (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06dGbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkcvlY 6ebIoqnGKsN6JiGA000007bJIGBIbGFmofGDIb0000ib000000 lb000009b000000lb0000000ebqBkbdnmxsXI2l20000)

Anyway, I know it rarely happens, but there exist tech users out there who will use buffs on other players. I know, I know, quite shocking but it's true. In such an extremely unlikely scenario where you might come across one such player, investing a single point into Adrenaline doubles your buff duration without having to sit around for the whole cast! You could also use a Shiftaride yourself and immediately move out of it yet still have the full 60s.

As for APPR, they'll definitely get more use out of APPR than SRoll Arts and ZRA. If you're seriously looking to using a gunslash (at close range, no less), then you really shouldn't be Fi/Gu.

But that Braver build, yikes. Rapid Shoot is next to useless when maxed, why wouldn't you get the mastery instead? Or 1 point in RSU? And Combat Escape is incredibly useful, even with 1 point. I don't think you understand how some of these skills actually work, nor how to optimize skill points.

I feel like you're doing this on purpose, especially since you use the word "straightforward" when talking about a hybrid build.

[hypothermiac]

As a player with only 1 mag (r-atk/dex i.e. not s-atk based) and 1 skill tree, wouldn't adding s-atk up on the FI tree be more useful than pp slayer?

[gigawuts]

Yeah, since more satk would let you equip higher satk weapons. Decent dex may get you access to fairly decent weapons as well, it depends on the weapon selection at the time really.

[MetalDude]

It's probably safe to assume you don't have AC or a desire/easy way to get it, so I'll take a quick look into numbers and pull something out for you.

At 65/65 FI/HU, you will have 574 base S-Atk as a male Human. You need at least 600-610 to equip AQ T.Daggers and Knuckles. 9 points into S-Atk Up 1 will put you just over the mark for these weapons.

Dex choices vary, but they're exceptionally good if you get your hands on them. Iblis Blood and Pao Nerian require 430 and 420 Dex respectively.

[UnLucky]

Well if you're a Duman, then the build I linked should let you equip any S-Atk req weapon even without a mag.

[Zorafim]

I'm seeing a massive lack of chase advance in these builds. Did percentiles go out of style or something?

[gigawuts]

I'm seeing a massive lack of chase advance in these builds. Did percentiles go out of style or something?

A consistent ~10% damage bonus is far more in style than an inconsistent or impossible to trigger 40% damage bonus ever will be.

edit: Oh right, that other 5 sp skill exists - more than whatever that one is too

[Zorafim]

Come to think of it, you can only use chase on trash. And trash dies way too quickly to use that. Maybe it's not so great.

So what's the common build used now?

[KatsuraJun]

Actually that's one of the worst Fi/Hu builds EVER. Adrenaline is worthless without a techer or force sub to actually give you the Shifta and Deband to use it. Chase Bind is a novelty with fighter weapons really. You should always grab all gear skills. Static boosts are not needed/useful(HP Boost). Half Line Boost is a rather overall not useful skill as it requires your HP to be low, and against mobs the status effects will only be useful for activating Chase Advance(and even then they will die in 1-2 hits less), and it is altogether useless against most bosses(and with Automate Halfline at +10 this skill can never be used). The hunter tree is worthless for DPS as it doesn't have a single skill that actually helps damage enough and often enough to be useful.



APPR isn't something that I would think of as necessary for Fighter(Multi-hit normal attacks for the win, while knuckles might need that if they plan on BHS spamming, it wouldn't mix well with PP Slayer).

And sorry my bad for forgetting to throw TB on the Techer tree and not giving the FO tree some more Lightning[/sarcasm] TBH, when it comes to Braver there isn't much that you can use on it subbing it or maining it. It's straightforward and the skills are simple due to its intended hybrid design(the skill tree for actually using it as a hybrid would like this: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000lb000009b000000lb000009b000000lb0000000Ibf 4SdncKrIJ2ik0000f).

Splitting stances is a waste of skill points, IMO.


I also find it ironic that weak stance has become pretty... bad for braver itself and has become something almost purely for tech casting.

[Lostbob117]

If you want to have some fun, you can go tanky too.

[gigawuts]

Splitting stances is a waste of skill points, IMO.


I also find it ironic that weak stance has become pretty... bad for braver itself and has become something almost purely for tech casting.

Just look at hunter vs. ranger.

Consistency always always always beats out conditional/situational multipliers unless the difference is something like doubled damage.

This is why fighter's entire tree is such bad design. Not only do you need to swap stances with 60 second cooldowns when fighting bosses to get the best damage you can (while, you know, hunter just has to not miss), but if you don't you face a ~50% damage penalty. Chase won't even work on bosses, PP slayer is less like +200 satk and more like +10% damage when below 50% PP (imagine if JA Bonus only worked when below 50% PP). The *line slayers are....we won't even do that, no. And then the Crazy skills are just, I mean, you won't even see it trigger for entire runs at a time depending on where you are simply because traps won't spawn.

[KatsujinkenKik]

Just adding my bits to this thread since its all I do.

My skill tree (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06dBbnIkbnIkb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3IkcPlE 7bInqnGKsNbpjsPfGAin00000febaBGBIOqsmofGD0000jebJd Jk9kc00009dB2QHScFInfGAgAbs0000fkbIk2XbKjcIbnIx000 084OdxHXfdsI2FSlb00000iOIo4SdnmxsXI2fqq0000f) (Don't ask me about force types at all since I won't know)

Here's me on my good days. The boss fight starts at around 7min in if you want to skip to it.
http://www.twitch.tv/katsukik/c/3422145

[SakoHaruo]

lol everyone should be using the same tree by now, you all wanna do good damage, right? the secret the mastering fighter tree is not a secret anymore.

you either run the same shit as everyone or you choose to do less damage than everyone.

[UnLucky]

Just adding my bits to this thread since its all I do.

My skill tree (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06dBbnIkbnIkb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3Ikb3IkcPlE 7bInqnGKsNbpjsPfGAin00000febaBGBIOqsmofGD0000jebJd Jk9kc00009dB2QHScFInfGAgAbs0000fkbIk2XbKjcIbnIx000 084OdxHXfdsI2FSlb00000iOIo4SdnmxsXI2fqq0000f) (Don't ask me about force types at all since I won't know)

Here's me on my good days. The boss fight starts at around 7min in if you want to skip to it.
http://www.twitch.tv/katsukik/c/3422145

Why do people continue to spend their points all willy nilly with complete disregard for the bonuses they provide?

Look, S-Atk Up 1 gives 10 S-Atk on the final point. One single SP gives 10 Atk.

S-Atk Up 2 gives 10 S-Atk for the first three points, only giving 3 Atk on the first couple SP each.

Please remember to always spend your SP responsibly.

[KatsujinkenKik]

Why do people continue to spend their points all willy nilly with complete disregard for the bonuses they provide?

Look, S-Atk Up 1 gives 10 S-Atk on the final point. One single SP gives 10 Atk.

S-Atk Up 2 gives 10 S-Atk for the first three points, only giving 3 Atk on the first couple SP each.

Please remember to always spend your SP responsibly.


Oops, thats what i get for not thinking it through due to having like 5 reset passes stashed away.