Unit Extending

[Incendi0]

Is there any reason why you shouldn't extend 10* units similarly to the dex thing on weapons? or is it just the fact that the single unit bonus changes? (sorry if I've posted this in the wrong place)

[WildarmsRE5]

you'll lose the Hidden Stat boosts on the unit, example: Vardha Units have a hidden 55 HP and 2 PP on each units, Ragne Units have 40 HP and 3 PP hidden on each piece as well. extending those will remove and overwrite it with a new stat.

[UnLucky]

You lose HP/PP and any inherent resistances (eg. Striking, Fire), though you'll gain some of that back depending on the recipe used.

Also pretty high stat requirements, especially if you use the T-Def recipes.

No real reason to extend 10* units since they'll most likely have a 9* or lower variant with the exact same set bonus.

[Neith]

Did not know this, wish I'd known before extending all my Braver's units. :disapprove:

[Ship2Mikeh]

the massive s/r/t def boosts are not to be taken lightly...

[Zorafim]

Yeah, I think I gained 100 defense on each of my ragne units. I'd much rather have that than some more hp.

[.Jack]

Does extending units also lose any attack bonus that they have? Or is it just HP/PP/resists

[Walkure]

The set bonuses stay, and those are where you get attack bonuses and whatnot. The per-unit bonuses, resists, and defensive stats do not.

[Geistritter]

Yeah, I think I gained 100 defense on each of my ragne units. I'd much rather have that than some more hp.

But you lost Strike Resist on each of the units, which is somewhere in the realm of a 5% damage cut, and you lost darkness resistance, although I'll be damned if I have any idea if that affects anything but techs, but if it cuts damage from enemies that are dark, presumably ones weak to light, then that's a massive loss.

In other words, at best you broke about even, or lost some defense, depending on your total S-Def, and lost HP.

The only units this really has value in doing this on are ones that have good set bonuses but have Ranged or Tech Resist, which are less valuable than Strike. The Vardha/Varder set is a good example of old units that can get new legs out of being Extended, as it gets a large defense increase, only loses about 45 HP total, and drops Ranged Resist and some wind resistance.

[Macman]

Lucky Rise units are worth extending usually.

Also dark resist is for attacks that make a megid-ish sound affect when they hit you. Like most of Ragne's and not-SH Falz's attacks.

[Geistritter]

You don't Extend the Lucky Rise units for the same reason you shouldn't Extend your Ragne units: you lose a bunch of Strike Resist.

Unless you didn't get Strike Resist ones for some reason, but you shouldn't do that, either.

[jcart953]

pfft I extended my lucky rise units...the worthless rdef one, mainly because I got them before the defense nerf. I never cared to get the sdef ones after that.

[Macman]

pfft I extended my lucky rise units...the worthless rdef one, mainly because I got them before the defense nerf. I never cared to get the sdef ones after that.
Pretty much my situation as well.

[Zorafim]

But you lost Strike Resist on each of the units, which is somewhere in the realm of a 5% damage cut,

My raw defense jumped by 25% from crafting it. I think that's worth sacrificing a 15% decrease in damage. Also, raw defense and damage reduction work against each other, unlike raw attack and attack modifiers. Defensive modifiers just aren't all that great compared to offensive ones. Now, I'd have to see what that boost in defense really did for me (I think I can have an SHard enemy smack me a bit), but I think raw stats is the way to go.

Edit: Testing this thought on a Kargarot, I found that 230 defense lowered my damage from 378 to 338, a 40 point cut. This is about a 10% cut. This is about the defense you gain when crafting all the ragne armor, so it seems like a fair number to use.

Now, this 10% works for every attack, instead of just striking. And the more defense you stack on, the large that percentage cut becomes. But of course, the stronger the enemy attack, the less useful the defense, and the more useful the damage cut becomes.

editer: I'm tired, my methods were messed up. I think I got the math right now.

[Walkure]

Primula set reduces more damage against regular mobs with striking attacks than Ragne armor, and that's a difference of 284 SDEF and Ragne's 154. Dot C still reduces by more, but not by much. An oodan will hit for 189-240ish with dot C, 230-260 with primula, and 280-310+ with ragne.

Theoretically, a mob with high enough SATK would have damage reduced more by ragne armor, but I don't think I've experienced a mob hitting harder with primula equipped compared to ragne.

[Husq]

Anyone tried extending the falz units?
The only reason you want to extend 10*+ units is, if you think that they have poor defense in one stat. Like crafting weapon, see unlock-able potentials, and look for set bonuses. Sets worth considering are really the ones that currently gives you either +40 attack, with two units, or +60 using 3 units, like falz, haze, ex set aso. Sets like ragne are not really worth wasting meseta, imo, because they don't really become any better. Thing is if you already manage to survive SH with them why bother extending them, you are not gaining any more attack bonuses by extending them.

[Z-0]

A good unit set to extend is the Negro Set, which is a 3-piece set that gives 90 T-Atk and 10PP as a set.

On their own, the units give you absolutely nothing except some defense, so crafting them is nothing but positive (Higher defenses, HP and PP)!

If you are more concerned about Attack/PP than Defense/HP also, the 90 R-Atk Ranged set (Tian/Gwanman) is also worth extending, as you'll gain PP (and HP if you're extending Tian), and higher R-Def/T-Def (S-Def stops short at 1 less at Extend Level 4). It loses Ranged Resistance.

[Omega-z]

@Walkure - The Primula set is 282, But your right attacks under 200 is raw stat, 200 - 300 both and 300+ %'s. Raw stats are better for mobs and %'s for bosses. The only time when there is an exception is with a Tank build.

[Emp]

@Walkure - The Primula set is 282, But were right attacks under 200 is raw stat, 200 - 300 both and 300+ %'s. Raw stats are better for mobs and %'s for bosses. The only time when there is an exception is with a Tank build.

How do you figure? *interested*

[Omega-z]

Well like Zorafim & Walkure mentioned the closer you are to the targets attack better reduction that the Raw stats have, Since they cover more of the damage . %'s base damage is based off every 100 damage. so a +3% Resist at 100 damage is 3 rdp in damage and Raw stat is a 5 to 1 ratio. So 30 points in Raw stat is 6 rdp, so at 200 damage they would be equal. So if you have enough Raw it can equal closer to 300. But anything lower then 150 then %'s actually don't do very well. But at 300+ like boss attacks that are 1K the %'s cover more of the damage then Raw stats do. HP Also being at a 10 to 1 ratio needs careful consideration since it adds only 1 maybe 2 hits (just a larger sponge not a tank). Otherwise Its better over Raw and % when damage is under 60 damage.

[UnLucky]

Larger enemies like bosses generally do more damage, not because of much higher stats, but on account of larger damage multipliers. Incoming damage follows the same formula as outgoing, in that the aggressor's Atk is directly reduced by the defender's corresponding Def stat, then multiplied by any percentage-based modifiers.

On account of these facts, small hits get affected more by pure stats whereas larger hits are affected more by resistance.

[Omega-z]

@Emp - ^this in much fewer words, Thank you UnLucky.:)

[Walkure]

@Walkure - The Primula set is 282, But your right attacks under 200 is raw stat, 200 - 300 both and 300+ %'s. Raw stats are better for mobs and %'s for bosses. The only time when there is an exception is with a Tank build.Orite, Cirnopedia defense values are off.


How do you figure? *interested*
Unless someone's been testing for mob attack stats, then I'ma guess he just did a guesstimate based on... I don't know what.


Larger enemies like bosses generally do more damage, not because of much higher stats, but on account of larger damage multipliers. Incoming damage follows the same formula as outgoing, in that the aggressor's Atk is directly reduced by the defender's corresponding Def stat, then multiplied by any percentage-based modifiers.

On account of these facts, small hits get affected more by pure stats whereas larger hits are affected more by resistance.
So, like:
Damage ∝ ATK - DEF
Damage ∝ M

You're concluding that when M is large, it's more important to reduce M by 10% than (ATK-DEF) by 10%. Because... reasons? :-?

I could imagine there's an instance ingame where a boss of some kind actually has 5,400 SATK but that'd be roughly the amount where Ragne would match bulky SH armors that don't have strike resist.

[Saffran]

Omega Z, that was not very easy to follow.
You're saying that if Enemy Atk =/> 200, then resists are better.
I understand the logic behind it, but come on, most enemies have more than 200 Atk...
That would mean that if you go defense, you *always* have to go with resists?

Throwing some numbers:
boosted udan lv63 attacks.
With 532 Sdef he crits at 456. (regular Udan 429)
With 532 Sdef and 5% SRes he crits at 433. (Regular Udan 407)
With 649 Sdef and 5% SRes he crits at 410. (Regular Udan 384)
With 649 Sdef and 10% SRes he crits at 389. (Regular Udan 365)
*(edit)With 1414Sdef I forgot to test him. (regular Udan 244)*
With 1414Sdef and 5% SRes he crits at 257. (regular Udan 231)
With 1531Sdef and 5% SRes he crits at 234. (regular Udan 208 )
With 1531Sdef and 10% SRes he didn't crit but reached 221. (regular Udan 198 )

He died to a random player while I was changing my armor.

With 1210Sdef and 18% Sres regular Udan crits at 235.
With 1210Sdef and 23% Sres regular Udan crits at 221.
With 1327Sdef and 23% Sres regular Udan crits at 204.
With 1327Sdef and 28% Sres regular Udan crits at 192.

[Omega-z]

Well let's take your example:

Foe's Stak = 5,400 or 1080 damage.

Your Sdef = 1100 or 220 reduction.

1080 - 220 = 860 damage.

Now let's compare if we added 15% S-Resist to 150 S-def.

with the S-def it get's add to your value of 1100, so 1100 + 150 = 1250 or 250. Then minus the attack 1080 - 250 = 830 damage. Which gives 30 points in reduction.

with 15% S-resist we take the 860 then we times it by .15 to get the difference. 860 * .15 = 129. We then minus this amount from the 860. 860 - 129 = 731 damage. So, it gives 129 points in reduction and 99 points better then the Raw stats.

Now let take it farther and have the value closer like 1600.

Foe Satk = 1600 or 320 damage.

Your Sdef = 1100 or 220 reduction.

320 - 220 = 100

Now let's compare if we added 15% S-Resist to 150 S-def.

with the S-def it get's add to your value of 1100, so 1100 + 150 = 1250 or 250. Then minus the attack 320 - 250 = 70 damage. Which gives 30 points in reduction.

with 15% S-resist we take the 100 then we times it by .15 to get the difference. 100 * .15 = 15. We then minus this amount from the 100. 100 - 15 = 85 damage. So, it gives 15 points in reduction and 15 points less then the Raw stats.

Update: @Saffran - If your taking more then let's say 300ish in damage then Raw stats are going to give you little gains compared to the % resist. So for like glass cannon's ....etc., yes one should rely more on %'s first for there defense since this will drop the most of the damage they receive and then Raw stats second. Tank builds are both or flopped from that.

[Walkure]

Just gonna grab two sets of your numbers with similar strike resist but differing defenses and work with that. Thanks for actually grabbing crits; I had no patience for that when I was grabbing basic numbers. ^^;

Throwing some numbers:
boosted udan lv63 attacks.
With 532 Sdef and 5% SRes he crits at 433. (Regular Udan 407)
With 649 Sdef and 5% SRes he crits at 410. (Regular Udan 384)
(X-532)*.2*M=433
(X-649)*.2*M=410

M=[433/((X-532)*.2)]
(X-649)*.2*[433/((X-532)*.2)]=410
Shove that into wolfram alpha cause lazy
X=2734.65
M=[433/((2734.65-532)*.2)]=98.29%
M with sres factored out: 103.46%


With 1210Sdef and 23% Sres regular Udan crits at 221.
With 1327Sdef and 23% Sres regular Udan crits at 204.Normal Oodan, using your two 23% sres real quick
(X-1210)*.2*M=221
(X-1327)*.2*M=204

M=[221/((X-1210)*.2)]
(X-1327)*.2*[221/((X-1210)*.2)]=204
X=2731
M=[221/((2731-1210)*.2)]=72.65%
M with sres factored out = M / (100%-23%) = 94.35%

Which seems to imply that infection adds a damage modifier (~10%) rather than improving base stats, so if base stats were better for uninfected, it'd remain the same for infected.

Which is *probably* the case for change-over bosses, rare bosses, named bosses; they'll have modifier bonuses rather than straight attack buffs. I'd also doubt that bosses will have tremendously more attack since they don't have significantly more defense/dex than regular monsters appear to have.


Also, Omega-z, I should probably clarify that 5,400 SATK is what I figured it would take for ragne units to match primula on damage taken. I figured that if something like Changeover, Infected, Named Haze Draal had SATK boosts from any of those qualifiers than maybe it could reach that high. I didn't want to assume that those were simply modifiers since I hadn't collected any data to confirm as much.

[Omega-z]

@Walkure - That's correct infection adds to the damage and the higher the level the higher the damage is too. It should be Lv.1 10% , Lv.2 20%, Lv.3 30%. Also there HP increases by level too.

Update: @Walkure - ah, I see yeah sorry for misunderstanding you.

[UnLucky]

So, like:
Damage ∝ ATK - DEF
Damage ∝ M

You're concluding that when M is large, it's more important to reduce M by 10% than (ATK-DEF) by 10%. Because... reasons? :-?

I could imagine there's an instance ingame where a boss of some kind actually has 5,400 SATK but that'd be roughly the amount where Ragne would match bulky SH armors that don't have strike resist.
Ah, you've caught me in my oversimplification.

Adding an amount of Def equivalent to 10% of the enemy's Atk would reduce the end damage by the same amount as adding 10% Res.

In any case, 100 Def is at least as good as 20 damage reduction, so that's a large proportion for small hits. With large multipliers, your damage reduction scales accordingly, so Def isn't rendered useless. Even standard mobs have attacks with 2-3x multipliers, so stats can go a long way.

10% is 10%, but you can't tell how much +100 Def would really be in any given situation. I wouldn't know the stats for various enemies, but if both multipliers and offensive stats increase, then at least some Res is beneficial over stacking pure Def.

[Walkure]

Actually, all you'd need to do is get two armor setups with the same strike resist totals but different SDEF totals. Then, go get hit by chrome dragon or some other boss until you get a critical hit with the same attack on both setups.

Given that enemy defensive stats haven't varied significantly, I'd be fairly surprised if chrome dragon, or any boss, turns out to have an SATK stat any higher than 3000-3500 SATK.

[Omega-z]

^This is true, most bosses are between the 3000 ~ 5000 range for there attacks.

[UnLucky]

I was hoping someone could just datamine the values because :effort:

[Walkure]

I'd get slapped around by a dragon today, but I'm already behind my to-do list of getting a lab report done and drinking victoriously as the Seahawks take the Superbowl.

[thunderstorm387]

Hello, I saw this thread on unit extending; I was wondering, if extending the Blue Luxe Set was a good idea. Each of the units only have +5pp on them.

Should I craft them with SDEF (HP+30 PP+1)? Also, if I extend the with TDEF (just curios), how high are the stat requirements?

If anyone can provide the insight, thank you very much.

PS: Also another question, a crafted Leg / Luxe Pal I got has some ice resistance on it. It's not listed in any of the abilities and I thought hidden resistances are wiped after crafting. Where does the ice resistance come from?

[Saffran]

The stats requirements are always the same, at Ext4 it will be 440 (whatever defense).
The +5pp is probably a hidden bonus, so extending the units will make it disappear.
Can you post a screenshot about the crafted Leg Luxe Pal? It shouldn't have that ice resistance.

[final_attack]

Btw, did you get Great Success on extending? If my memory's right, Great Success can give you additional resistance or reduced equipment requirement ....

[Omega-z]

@final_attack - It only relaxes the equipment amount with great success. There's no mention of added resistances at all on the wiki unless it was ninja'd in with one of the last updates.

[final_attack]

Oh, I see. My bad ^^;

[thunderstorm387]

Thank you Saffran! I just wanted to make sure I wasn't wiping out anything useful.
So if I got this correctly, no matter which recipe I use, I would always get 294 Sdef, 266 Rdef, and 266 Tdef? The only thing that changes is the equipping requirements for which recipe I use and the hidden HP/PP bonuses.

And sorry for the mistake, I unequipped everything and it seems the ice resist was on another unit. Sorry! (>A<)