14k Zonde

[FacelessRed]

No really.. 14k zonde? My impression of force has been utterly underwhelming, and I've got a 52 force 54 techer on my main and another 53 force and 47 techter as a deuman full tAtk. And 14k Zonde is a ton more than I'm seeing and even seeing as potential.. how are they pulling these kind of numbers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k0EXprDfE4
Seriously !

[Arksenth]

> FO/BR for 1.51% Weak Element Damage
> Dual Bolt Mastery Tree
> 30% Bonus for Weak Element
> Satellite Riser with 16% Lightning Damage Latent
> Presumably Top-Tier Gear looking at that character

You still shouldn't be using Zonde.

[FacelessRed]

> FO/BR for 1.51% Weak Element Damage
> Dual Bolt Mastery Tree
> 30% Bonus for Weak Element
> Satellite Riser with 16% Lightning Damage Latent
> Presumably Top-Tier Gear looking at that character

You still shouldn't be using Zonde.

And I made no mention of me using Zonde, and clearly as you can see it works just fine in the video...

My main issue is why go so far for 1 skill? which is t he main issue with Force.. only 1 element can be truly powerful at a time.

[zegun~kun]

And I made no mention of me using Zonde, and clearly as you can see it works just fine in the video...

My main issue is why go so far for 1 skill? which is t he main issue with Force.. only 1 element can be truly powerful at a time.

that player definitely have multiple skill trees
and she must have built trees specifically for TA, example -- that one
lightning specialized tree to smack down mobs in Lilipa TA

[ShinMaruku]

I'd wait till the next patch before I'd focus on force. You need some good kit to really push out great number at the moment and even with the kit you are on the low side.

[Rehal]

> FO/BR for 1.51% Weak Element Damage
> Dual Bolt Mastery Tree
> 30% Bonus for Weak Element
> Satellite Riser with 16% Lightning Damage Latent
> Presumably Top-Tier Gear looking at that character

You still shouldn't be using Zonde.

Also
Shifta Drink
Shifta buff from that Hu/Te
Team Buff
Cake

[zegun~kun]

even my decent geared Fo/Te with 2500 (includes Shifta Drink EX and lv15 Shifta) something TATK and double lightning tree can only give me 7500 zonde to Lilipa mobs

considering Weak Stance, Weak Stance Up, and Weak Stance Charge -- that's already another 150% damage bonus
add up the 16% damage bonus from satelite riser's latent
and add up another damage percentage from her crafted Zonde, though im not sure if she reached the craft level where it increases damage, but it's a very high probability

[Bellion]

It was crafted to be lower charge time and that's 6 slot unit status.

[Dark Priest]

And I made no mention of me using Zonde, and clearly as you can see it works just fine in the video...

My main issue is why go so far for 1 skill? which is t he main issue with Force.. only 1 element can be truly powerful at a time.

Never take anything he says seriously, according to him you shouldn't be using anything but zondeel only, even showing someone a video of a 14k zone and still says you shouldn't use it,

it's a waste of time even reading most of his posts.

however that is interesting, but it does require a lot of buffs. Now i wonder if someone can pull of those kind of numbers with a barta lol.

[Rayden]

The reason you shouldn't use lightning spells is because they break Zondeel. Sure, you might be doing 14k per Zonde if you have exceptional gear, but you'll still be drastically lowering the DPS of the group by stopping Zondeel from working. Lightning sucks. Use something else.

[GoldenFalcon]

The reason you shouldn't use lightning spells is because they break Zondeel. Sure, you might be doing 14k per Zonde if you have exceptional gear, but you'll still be drastically lowering the DPS of the group by stopping Zondeel from working. Lightning sucks. Use something else.

You don't need group DPS when you can oneshot them.

[Shinamori]

That rod's latent boost thunder techs if I'm not mistaken.

[Zorafim]

Lightning sucks. Use something else.

Is it time to use ice yet?

[UnLucky]

You don't need group DPS when you can oneshot them.

Yeah, oneshot large groups using Zondeel and something that does way more than 14k.

Picking off a single enemy with Zonde is not helpful. Activating Zondeel is not helpful.

[Z-0]

recruiting ta team to beat zodiacsign (ボブさん、アストレアさん、daiさんとxecusさん) in march (cuz I don't have a good pc atm it's elsewhere)

must be 5 slotted with at least 100 attack boost (or aim to do this!). able to quad or penta dash.

looking 4: hubr/hubr, rahu, fobr

PM ME

THIS WILL HAPPEN

bonus bellion ks guide if ur good enough to help u get #1 in td !

[Inazuma]

My uncharged Sazan does about 6k on enemies NOT weak to wind. That's better DPS than a charged Zonde that does 14k.

Lightning attacks activate Zondeel which is horrible, and they do poor damage. Outside of using Sazonde on Falz Elder (to shock), there isn't much use for them.

Even on enemies weak to lightning, please do not use lightning attack techs. Use Zondeel and attack with anything that won't activate it.

[milranduil]

My uncharged Sazan does about 6k on enemies NOT weak to wind. That's better DPS than a charged Zonde that does 14k.

Lightning attacks activate Zondeel which is horrible, and they do poor damage. Outside of using Sazonde on Falz Elder (to shock), there isn't much use for them.

Even on enemies weak to lightning, please do not use lightning attack techs. Use Zondeel and attack with anything that won't activate it.

Until you post any reasonable TA vids, I can't take anything you have to say seriously in this matter.

[Inazuma]

Until you post any reasonable TA vids, I can't take anything you have to say seriously in this matter.

Time Attack is a waste of time for me. I make more meseta in less time from FUN scratch.

I have Elysion and -10 PP Sazan. I'm a very good Force. If you are on Ship 2, we can play together if you want.

[milranduil]

Time Attack is a waste of time for me. I make more meseta in less time from FUN scratch.

I have Elysion and -10 PP Sazan. I'm a very good Force. If you are on Ship 2, we can play together if you want.

Spoilers, this entire thread was created based on a TA video (NOT A TACO, A TA). If you want to show how bad 14k Zonde is (and how good of a FO you claim to be), then show us all, not just me.

[Howl]

Time Attack is a waste of time for me. I make more meseta in less time from FUN scratch.

I have Elysion and -10 PP Sazan. I'm a very good Force. If you are on Ship 2, we can play together if you want.

Such a modest people...

[Inazuma]

Spoilers, this entire thread was created based on a TA video (NOT A TACO, A TA). If you want to show how bad 14k Zonde is (and how good of a FO you claim to be), then show us all, not just me.

You haven't found Elysion yet? It's ridiculous how good it is. I don't make videos so if you want to see, you are welcome to contact me in game and we can play together. Just don't activate my Zondeels.

[milranduil]

You haven't found Elysion yet? It's ridiculous how good it is. I don't make videos so if you want to see, you are welcome to contact me in game and we can play together. Just don't activate my Zondeels.

I like how you are completely avoiding the entire point of what my post was... TA. I know perfectly well how good Elysion is. I am VERY familiar with its power. That still does not mean you should be telling a lightning FO BR to play like general DPS TE FO when TAing. There is only so much I can do to help you understand that.

[Sanguine2009]

if you are playing lightning force in groups you are doing it wrong, period. its fine if ya want to do solo TAs(which seems to be what you are saying if i understand correctly) but everyone else seems to be talking about more general use. if you are a force that uses zonde in a party with people trying to zondeel mobs together you hurt the party more than you help it

[milranduil]

if you are playing lightning force in groups you are doing it wrong, period. its fine if ya want to do solo TAs(which seems to be what you are saying if i understand correctly) but everyone else seems to be talking about more general use. if you are a force that uses zonde in a party with people trying to zondeel mobs together you hurt the party more than you help it

This thread originated due to a group lilipa TA with FO BR using Zonde to 1-shot bots. Obviously, this isn't ONLY about general use. Yes, I think we ALL get that using Zonde in an MPA is bad if you aren't 1-shotting whatever it touches. That is not the point of this conversation...

[RedRaz0r]

ITT: Your skill is apparently directly related to how good of drops you get.

[Zorafim]

I thought everyone thought that.

[Inazuma]

This thread originated due to a group lilipa TA with FO BR using Zonde to 1-shot bots. Obviously, this isn't ONLY about general use. Yes, I think we ALL get that using Zonde in an MPA is bad if you aren't 1-shotting whatever it touches. That is not the point of this conversation...

I was talking about general use too. If there is a situation where using Zonde is the best, then that's great. Use it. Same goes for every other tech.

But 99% of the time, using Zonde is not the best. Even if it one shots everything. Just because you can one shot with Zonde doesn't mean you should use it. You could probably one or two shot with Sazan in less time than it would take to charge one Zonde. You could gather many enemies with Zondeel, then one or two shot them all together.

The only time I use Zonde is on Dark Falz Elder. If I want to activate my Sazonde, I might use Zonde for that. I never use Gizonde, Razonde, Nazonde. The only time I activate Zondeel is against Falz Elder, when I use it to activate Sazonde. I use the crafted Zondeel that increases shock chance.

And even if you are new at Force and for whatever reason, your strongest attack happens to be Zonde, you still shouldn't use it because it activates Zondeel. Even if there are no other Forces in the party, you probably don't want to activate your own Zondeel. If you are solo, you can do whatever you want. No one will get upset if you want to kill slowly.

[milranduil]

I was talking about general use too. If there is a situation where using Zonde is the best, then that's great. Use it. Same goes for every other tech.

But 99% of the time, using Zonde is not the best. Even if it one shots everything. Just because you can one shot with Zonde doesn't mean you should use it. You could probably one or two shot with Sazan in less time than it would take to charge one Zonde. You could gather many enemies with Zondeel, then one or two shot them all together.

The only time I use Zonde is on Dark Falz Elder. If I want to activate my Sazonde, I might use Zonde for that. I never use Gizonde, Razonde, Nazonde. The only time I activate Zondeel is against Falz Elder, when I use it to activate Sazonde. I use the crafted Zondeel that increases shock chance.

And even if you are new at Force and for whatever reason, your strongest attack happens to be Zonde, you still shouldn't use it because it activates Zondeel. Even if there are no other Forces in the party, you probably don't want to activate your own Zondeel. If you are solo, you can do whatever you want. No one will get upset if you want to kill slowly.

So I'm just going to leave you with this.

FO/BR sucks with Sazan against non-wind weak enemies compared to proper (fire/lightning) element unless there are consistently targetable weak points where Sazan does not then hit the non-weak hitbox due to its own suction.

[Inazuma]

So I'm just going to leave you with this.

FO/BR sucks with Sazan against non-wind weak enemies compared to proper (fire/lightning) element unless there are consistently targetable weak points where Sazan does not then hit the non-weak hitbox due to its own suction.

FO/BR? Who said anything about that?

TE/FO completely built around using Elysion is better. Why would you throw talises and/or charge techs for fire and lightning when you can just throw off one or two uncharged Sazans to accomplish the same thing or better, in less time?

Nafoie is the best on bosses weak to fire, but the problem is you will be weaker against small fry. If you are boss rushing, go for it. But if you are fighting small fry as well, you are way better off with Elysion and Sazan.

For example, the Forest. Nafoie is great on Rockbear but sucks on everything else compared to Sazan. It's way better overall to use a skill tree based around Sazan instead of Nafoie for Forest.

[milranduil]

FO/BR? Who said anything about that?

TE/FO completely built around using Elysion is better. Why would you throw talises and/or charge techs for fire and lightning when you can just throw off one or two uncharged Sazans to accomplish the same thing or better, in less time?

Nafoie is the best on bosses weak to fire, but the problem is you will be weaker against small fry. If you are boss rushing, go for it. But if you are fighting small fry as well, you are way better off with Elysion and Sazan.

For example, the Forest. Nafoie is great on Rockbear but sucks on everything else compared to Sazan. It's way better overall to use a skill tree based around Sazan instead of Nafoie for Forest.

If you don't understand why I'm talking about FO/BR, I'm done. I cannot put the points together for you.

[btw-Niji]

Inazuma is legendary. Wow, lol.

[Inazuma]

If you don't understand why I'm talking about FO/BR, I'm done. I cannot put the points together for you.

If you don't have Elysion, then FO/BR using fire could be decent. I've played as FO/BR before. Especially with how the crafting system has helped improve every fire tech. TE/FO with Elysion and Sazan is superior in almost every situation though. Also, the crafting system has improved Sazan much more than it has for fire.

Once again, let's play together sometime. I want to play alongside your fire FO/BR.

[BlueCast Boy]

I haven;t been much paying attention lighting techs since I'm playing very pure fire tech based force, but I'm still getting a good setup with lightning tech like zonde but just wow on that vid.

[milranduil]

If you don't have Elysion, then FO/BR using fire could be decent. I've played as FO/BR before. Especially with how the crafting system has helped improve every fire tech. TE/FO with Elysion and Sazan is superior in almost every situation though. Also, the crafting system has improved Sazan much more than it has for fire.

Once again, let's play together sometime. I want to play alongside your fire FO/BR.

The OP contains a video regarding FO/BR which is the superior FO class for TA which was my ENTIRE POINT.

[Inazuma]

The OP contains a video regarding FO/BR which is the superior FO class for TA which was my ENTIRE POINT.

I just watched the whole video. The FO/BR barely attacks anything. She is pretty much just triple dashing or whatever the whole time. Even if Sazan would have been slower than Zonde, how much slower would their run have been? 10 seconds, if that? Maybe Braver is a good sub for time attack because it can dash around the map faster than Tector.

When it comes to actually fighting enemies, TE/FO with Elysion and Sazan is superior.

[jooozek]

that's the point, they can herpaderpadash and asagiridash :lol:

[milranduil]

I just watched the whole video. The FO/BR barely attacks anything. She is pretty much just triple dashing or whatever the whole time. Even if Sazan would have been slower than Zonde, how much slower would their run have been? 10 seconds, if that? Maybe Braver is a good sub for time attack because it can dash around the map faster than Tector.

When it comes to actually fighting enemies, TE/FO with Elysion and Sazan is superior.

Asagiri + quad dash is more than 30% faster than walking. Say it takes 2:30min to walk through a mission. That's 150 seconds. Save 30% -> 45s saved. FO BR is better for TA entirely because step attack (and now Asagiri cancel dash) and still deals sufficient damage to deal with mobs efficiently. Team TA is about: 1) coordination, 2) utility, 3) sufficient damage, 4) fastest travel. Because walking is involved in all TAs, FO BR reins superior over TE FO because it can fulfill these 4 roles when necessary whereas TE FO cannot travel sufficiently fast. I am not saying TE FO sucks compared to FO BR. I'm saying TE FO sucks compared to FO BR for TA.

[UnLucky]

Sazan is simply a stronger tech. If you can get the same multiplier behind it, it's way better than Zonde.

But you really can't. Te/Br has lower multipliers than Fo/Br for a single element, and you miss out on PP Charge Revival. Te/Fi or Te/Fo are even lower still.

Elysion doesn't make Sazan super powerful, either. It only makes it the same strength either charged or uncharged, disregarding certain skills that don't apply to both. It's essentially the S Charge for very specific techs, making them slightly faster than even a -0.4s charge recipe fire tech (accounting for the slower wand casting animation as well).

But if you absolutely must have a lot of damage really fast in a specific environment, the optimal choice is a pure element Fo/Br. Nothing else can even come close unless you're using uncharged Namegid on dragons with the Elysion.

[milranduil]

But if you absolutely must have a lot of damage really fast in a specific environment, the optimal choice is a pure element Fo/Br.

This sooooo much. TA is about instant damage, not DPS.

[Z-0]

TA is really fun and feels rewarding when you beat your / others' best times. The co-ordination and teamwork put into getting really good times feels good too.

Unfortunately SEGA thinks it's a good idea that you get nothing for it, and there's hardly any other content out there where co-ordination and teamwork is mildly required (except Tower Defense).

Also, I'm pretty sure Bob (the FO in the TA video) has an Elysion, and if it was better, he would've used it, as he's the best FO out there and doesn't bother with inefficient strategies.

[Dana]

ITT: Your skill is apparently directly related to how good of drops you get.

Welcome to PSO-world, for you.

[martinmeegan]

I just watched the whole video.

4 pages in, that's 2 pages after you started to argue.........awesome.

[gigawuts]

Welcome to PSO-world, for you.

PSOW? That's been EN Phantasy Star since at the very least the GC version, and according to anyone and everyone I know who had a dreamcast it's been that way all the way back to v1.

My legit 80 hit TJS makes me the single best player in the game!

Just like how when I found 3 guld millas in PSO2 I went from being a terrible gunner to the single best gunner in the entire game.

[Macman]

Teach me your ways, giga-sama ;_;

[Inazuma]

ITT: Your skill is apparently directly related to how good of drops you get.

There are three main aspects when it comes to determining how good someone is in a game like this.

- Actual player skill is one of them, of course. Knowledge of the game, decision making, teamwork, avoiding attacks, fighting enemies well, etc. This is very important but it's certainly not everything, like some of you may think.

- Equipment, skill trees, classes, levels, photon arts, etc is another. Like it or not, this is important too. A Force using Elysion who sucks at the game could end up overall better than a very skilled Force who doesn't have Elysion. Same for Sazan 16. I don't care how skilled someone is, if they don't have Elysion and Sazan 16, they are pretty much shit.

- Controls are the last one. Something that a lot of people don't even consider. Rangers should use the mouse and everyone else should use a controller. But it doesn't stop there. How you configure and use your controls is very important. If you use the default controls for controller, it is complete shit. You have to put a lot of work into configuring your controller for it to actually surpass the keyboard. This is one of the reasons why Vita players are terrible. Their controls are awful and there is no way to fix them.

[Z-0]

But the best Rangers (くろえちゃん、ふぇみるな、Bellion, maybe some others) use controller. . .

This isn't a game where TPS is difficult on a controller. I dunno what it is but I find TPS with my controller extremely effective, where if I play a game such as Left 4 Dead 2, I feel like I should be using Mouse and Keyboard because the TPS there feels tacky on controller.

[Inazuma]

But the best Rangers (くろえちゃん、ふぇみるな、Bellion, maybe some others) use controller. . .

This isn't a game where TPS is difficult on a controller. I dunno what it is but I find TPS with my controller extremely effective, where if I play a game such as Left 4 Dead 2, I feel like I should be using Mouse and Keyboard because the TPS there feels tacky on controller.

It's not impossible to do TPS with controller somewhat decently. I do it sometimes with Force. Pretty sure mouse is vastly superior though. Get one of those gaming mice with all the extra programmable buttons on it.

[Walkure]

Outside of Falz and Mining, being able/willing to dash is going to improve your contribution significantly. Even in mining, being able to tag/kill slightly more and grab more crystals is a slight advantage over baseline movement speed.

What's the specific advantage in using a controller over a gaming mouse?

[Z-0]

I wouldn't say there's any particular advantage to controller except comfort if you prefer using a gamepad.

[MetalDude]

I do really like movement on an analog stick more than keyboard. I just feel that I have more precision in TPS with mouse (but I'm also just very used to this setup as is).

[Horosha_Onikage]

Could use a navigation controller in one hand and mouse in the other if you want a splicing of both.

[Inazuma]

What's the specific advantage in using a controller over a gaming mouse?

360 degree analog movement of your character separate from the camera, and instant access to every button. Controllers are designed for action games. Keyboards are designed for communication.

TPS mode is the only time the controller is not the best, so that's why if you use it often like with Ranger, you might be better off using a mouse.

[milranduil]

I don't care how skilled someone is, if they don't have Elysion and Sazan 16, they are pretty much shit.

You know there is also something else to be valued from any human being, not just a gamer... tact. You completely lack anything regarding it, let alone anyone having differing opinions and you even considering it for a nanosecond.

[Esofor]

i have an elysion

i am probably the best player in this thread

[Natsu Nem]

I don't have an Elysion. Apparently I'm a shit FO/BR even though though I outperform most FOs in mpas. I guess that makes me the king of shit.

I get it now! I just need to beat RNG to get Elysion and Sazan 16 and spend a few million grinding and affixing it. WTF am I doing?? Fuck studying game mechanics, PP management, learning the hitboxes of boss attacks, movement via dashing, thinking about which technic the most efficient for each situation I'm in, matching elemental weaknesses, positioning myself to hit the most number of mobs with a technic. FUCK ALL OF THAT!

I could just get an Elysion instead! I could turn off my brain on my just like my BR and GU characters just by spamming Sazan and Zondeeling sometimes for aoe.

Why are you reading this? My Elysionless opinion doesn't matter because I'm shit. I'll just stand here with a latented Hitogata staring at a few Elysion users attacking a boss I have aggro on.

[BIG OLAF]

Man, you know you're being an idiot when you can make even the normally taciturn Natsu throw a big lump of sarcastic vitriol at you.

[Shadowth117]

Man, you know you're being an idiot when you can make even the normally taciturn Natsu throw a big lump of sarcastic vitriol at you.

This, so much ^

[Dnd]

I don't care how skilled someone is, if they don't have Elysion and Sazan 16, they are pretty much shit.

[SPOILER-BOX]https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1907326_596115867141535_941641577_n.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Inazuma]

I'm not saying people without Elysion are terrible people. I'm saying that Elysion is far and away the best item for techniques. You can be a very skilled, awesome person who is doing everything right, but if you lack Elysion, you can't help but fall far short. That's how Sega designed the game. I didn't make PSO2 so why attack me? Maybe because you can't argue against what I say, because I am right. PSOW hasn't changed.

I considered myself as slow, weak and worthless before I found Elysion. I could barely even attack any enemy at all. The difference is like night and day.

Anyone who wants to argue for Elysion not being the best technique related item? Please go ahead.

[gigawuts]

I'm not saying people without Elysion are terrible people. I'm saying that Elysion is far and away the best item for techniques. You can be a very skilled, awesome person who is doing everything right, but if you lack Elysion, you can't help but fall far short. That's how Sega designed the game. I didn't make PSO2 so why attack me? Maybe because you can't argue against what I say, because I am right. PSOW hasn't changed.

I considered myself as slow, weak and worthless before I found Elysion. I could barely even attack any enemy at all. It was. The difference is like night and day.

Anyone who wants to argue for Elysion not being the best technique related item? Please go ahead.

Inazuma,

I understand that you want to beardlord it up over how amazing your numbers are compared to everyone else's, but could you please restrict your hypersperging to one thread? Can you, like, make one single thread that we can just never go to where you put all of these kinds of posts?

Please leave the other threads alone. People have a right to say they want to 50 element a weapon without you coming in and acting like the most colossal (literally and figuratively) antisocial nerd to roam the earth since the 700 pound mole people rolled underground.

- Giga

[Dnd]

Inazuma,

I understand that you want to beardlord it up over how amazing your numbers are compared to everyone else's, but could you please restrict your hypersperging to one thread? Can you, like, make one single thread that we can just never go to where you put all of these kinds of posts?

Please leave the other threads alone. People have a right to say they want to 50 element a weapon without you coming in and acting like the most colossal (literally and figuratively) antisocial nerd to roam the earth since the 700 pound mole people rolled underground.

- Giga

This made me laugh so hard my sides hurt, thank you.

[yoshiblue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMPU9xmRCf0

[Horo The Wise Wolf]

Hey guys

Just stopping by to say that Ice techs are best for DPS.

Thank you

[gigawuts]

This made me laugh so hard my sides hurt, thank you.

I'm always happy to provide :blush:

[ChinaSue]

I just watched the whole video. The FO/BR barely attacks anything. She is pretty much just triple dashing or whatever the whole time. Even if Sazan would have been slower than Zonde, how much slower would their run have been? 10 seconds, if that? Maybe Braver is a good sub for time attack because it can dash around the map faster than Tector.

When it comes to actually fighting enemies, TE/FO with Elysion and Sazan is superior.

I think she is just attacking everything she needs to. It isn't like she is doing a solo TA where she has to kill everything herself.

Judging from the video, I would assume their goal is to get the fastest TA possible. If that is their goal, 10 seconds could be a pretty big deal.

[btw-Niji]

Inazuma,

I understand that you want to beardlord it up over how amazing your numbers are compared to everyone else's, but could you please restrict your hypersperging to one thread? Can you, like, make one single thread that we can just never go to where you put all of these kinds of posts?

Please leave the other threads alone. People have a right to say they want to 50 element a weapon without you coming in and acting like the most colossal (literally and figuratively) antisocial nerd to roam the earth since the 700 pound mole people rolled underground.

- Giga
Damn dude. Great post. 1o/1o.

[TaigaUC]

Don't know what you guys are arguing about here.
The opening post was asking something about why focus on Zonde and the potential of focusing on a single spell.
At some point people started arguing what was more efficient and it seemed like people got confused about the context (general or TA).

Obviously the OP video used lightning in a situation where enemies are weak to lightning.
We all know SaZan got a massive damage boost that makes everything else pale in comparison.
I'm honestly surprised people are even arguing about that.

I think people should just accept those facts and stop wasting time arguing over SEGA's shitty balancing.
They're not worth it.

Edit:
I'd also like to ask people to be more considerate of their group when they choose their attacks and tactics.
It's all about context. Use what's best for the current situation.

For example, I had a JP person tell me off for experimenting with Zan during TD.
I thought it'd be okay because we already had 3 Zondeelers and Zan seemed to push me up the ranking by killing stragglers running everywhere (when the other 3 stopped using Zondeel for some reason).
But I guess SaZan would have still been a better choice.

Another example is there was someone in my last TD run who seemed to use nothing but NaGrants and Grants, while enemies ran all over the place.
We really could have used Zondeel instead. Well, I think they were also playing northern hero, so maybe that's asking too much.

[Kikikiki]

I'm not saying people without Elysion are terrible people.


I don't care how skilled someone is, if they don't have Elysion and Sazan 16, they are pretty much shit.

TIL neckbeards can contradict themselves without washing their filthy mouths.

[Walkure]

I'll have you guys know that more Elysions you have, the better you are as a force. True facts, I have so many Elysions that I'm the best strongest in history, even when I'm not on force!

Proof:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/fcsELcq.png
My mag can clear a whole wave when it uses uses zan. Also totally true and no photoshop was used in the making of this screenshot. [/spoiler-box]

[ShinMaruku]

I think people should just accept those facts and stop wasting time arguing over SEGA's shitty balancing.
They're not worth it.



People are drawn to drama they can't help it. Especially with the negativity around the game. (Really though if you think the game is shit leave until it changes I would never stay with a game that pisses me off I dropped Tekken hella fast)

[Zorafim]

Hey guys

Just stopping by to say that Ice techs are best for DPS.

Thank you

Please tell me this is a thing and not a troll. I have been wanting to be a pure ice force since beta.

[ShinMaruku]

It's a troll ice is shit for many reasons. 1 being too easily breakble freeze you need some rng on crafting and a whole assortment of bullshit.

[Arksenth]

Please tell me this is a thing and not a troll. I have been wanting to be a pure ice force since beta.

Pure Ice is actually decent these days. Not fantastic, but certainly way, way better than before. But yeah, you do need a lot of stuff to make it work - all Lv. 16 disks, since most of the ice techs tend to get big hops at Lv. 16, and then near perfect values on Tech Customizations, and then probably a few Latent 3 Circuit Breakout weapons to take advantage of the PF you'll have to get anyway. If you have a lot of time and meseta to burn, you can make it work though. Rabarta is about as strong as Sazan 16 now, but lacks the utility, lock-on direct target range and spammability of Sazan - but you also get other perks like super spammable Barta/Gibarta.

[MetalDude]

And then if you want to be really gimmicky, Freeze Keep/Halfline Boost makes crafted Barta extremely effective at freezing (pretty sure, it's like 99% with Freeze Boost, but you shouldn't even need to take that). I imagine it's a lot of fun but it's not something I'd try until I (eventually) find Rabarta 16.

[Zorafim]

Man that sounds amazing. Shame you need to put in so much work just to be passable, and it only works at the highest levels. I've given up on leveling anything more than my main and subs (which are still terribly underleveled), so I'll probably never see it. But if I get unjustly lucky again and snag a Elysion or something, I may check it out.

[Arksenth]

I'd like the crafted Barta recipe for additional freeze better if the other recipe wasn't PP reduction. Although I guess Gibarta also gets PP reduction, so you can just spread them out a little like that so Gibarta is for sustained casting, Barta is for SE proc, and Rabarta is for damage.

I'd actually say that Ice is better with a Talis than Elysion, even, because none of the techs (bar Nabarta) really work well with Elysion's latent. And even a crafted Nabarta is weaker than Sazan, although it does permit you to move around.

The way I'd do it is I'd pick up a Miyabisen for Photon Flare, and then a Heretic Saw for Rabarta. Although you'd probably still want to get some mileage out of Gibarta and that works better when it originates from caster, so you'd still probably want to pick up a rod or at least a crafted Adaman (lol wut)

[MetalDude]

If Freeze Keep wasn't so far down the damn tree, I feel like Ice would thrive a bit more. There's a lot of useless sacrifices made just to get it despite how important it is for Ice mains. I guess it gives you reason to at least accompany it with a PF weapon but you'll see some pretty fair loss of damage skills in the process.

Just make PF a % boost already Sega.

[TaigaUC]

Everyone has been wishing ice didn't suck for almost two years.
Someone should kidnap the PSO2 dev team and lock them in with WoW Burning Crusade and premade frost mages, then have them duke it out in arena.

That's how you make ice element fun and exciting.

[Arksenth]

Wouldn't say that Freeze Keep is essential at all - the problem is that it interferes with offensive playstyles way too much. I mean, even barring Zondeel, a lot of melee/ranged playstyles are really built around SH mob aggressive tendencies in approach. Other players aren't going to be happy if you have mobs scattered in frozen coffins. Maybe if you're soloing and absolutely need the defensive playstyle to keep alive, sure - but extended freeze is more a liability than an asset in parties.

[Enforcer MKV]

Man that sounds amazing. Shame you need to put in so much work just to be passable, and it only works at the highest levels. I've given up on leveling anything more than my main and subs (which are still terribly underleveled), so I'll probably never see it. But if I get unjustly lucky again and snag a Elysion or something, I may check it out.

...Dude, just go Ice if you want to go Ice. I've been leveling Aurroris as an ice Force, and with the Limited quest and the EQs, it isn't so bad. I mean, I have around 100 hours clocked on her, and I'm sitting at 45/45, primarily from the LQ, even if I'm sick of it now. :lol: I have other techs to fall back on if I really need them, but I usually do just fine with the Barta family, maybe a few Grants family spells thrown into the mix, a bit of fire occasionally if I REALLY need it or something.

But ya know? I have fun with it, it's not something you see a whole lot and while it's not anything near powerful [I'm the last person you should come to if you're looking for an optimized build, just saying. Most of my trees focus on what I think is useful and fun, not necessarily the most optimized for damage], I find the freeze is useful and procs quite a bit with the right spells and holds up quite well with the right skills.

Ice isn't a damage tree to me, it's a CC/ensnaring tree, and it's enjoyable if you're not looking to do a whole lot of damage, Elysion or not. It won't get you any pats on the back, but if you want to try it, by all means try it.

It's your decision in the end, obviously. Just throwing my two cents in the pot.

[MetalDude]

Wouldn't say that Freeze Keep is essential at all - the problem is that it interferes with offensive playstyles way too much. I mean, even barring Zondeel, a lot of melee/ranged playstyles are really built around SH mob aggressive tendencies in approach. Other players aren't going to be happy if you have mobs scattered in frozen coffins. Maybe if you're soloing and absolutely need the defensive playstyle to keep alive, sure - but extended freeze is more a liability than an asset in parties.

That's true. I suppose if you handle it effectively with Zondeel initially it would work well but that also limits you from touching Barta entirely so you'd just be dependent on Rabarta.

[Naizuya Tatzubani]

I played Force once. Talis are rough.

[UnLucky]

I'd like the crafted Barta recipe for additional freeze better if the other recipe wasn't PP reduction. Although I guess Gibarta also gets PP reduction, so you can just spread them out a little like that so Gibarta is for sustained casting, Barta is for SE proc, and Rabarta is for damage.
Pretty much this. Barta isn't exactly reliable since it gets tripped up by small rocks, but Gibarta is the perfect all-purpose tool. Rabarta gets crazy powerful with that extra hit, and all three need to be lv16. Nabarta gets decent with Elysion, and we don't talk about Sabarta.

[Ce'Nedra]

I'll have you guys know that more Elysions you have, the better you are as a force. True facts, I have so many Elysions that I'm the best strongest in history, even when I'm not on force!

Proof:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/fcsELcq.png
My mag can clear a whole wave when it uses uses zan. Also totally true and no photoshop was used in the making of this screenshot. [/spoiler-box]

You got only 9 Elysion in slot 2 & 3 and only 5 in 8? So casual...

Really though this pic made me laugh more then it should.

Time to be a shit force for the rest of time life since I can't find Elysion :(

[Z-0]

So the force in the OP very well does have an Elysion, as he uses it in his solo SH Lilipa (7:35).

Interestingly enough, he doesn't use Sazan, because that's not as efficient as Sazonde for the big targets (18,000+ per tick is pretty handy, since 6k stacked multiple times is way stronger than Sazan ever hopes to be), and he one shots enemies with Gizonde and Rod, so why would he use Sazan when Gizonde has far more coverage and wastes less time?

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22848796

[gigawuts]

I'll have you guys know that more Elysions you have, the better you are as a force. True facts, I have so many Elysions that I'm the best strongest in history, even when I'm not on force!

Proof:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/fcsELcq.png
My mag can clear a whole wave when it uses uses zan. Also totally true and no photoshop was used in the making of this screenshot. [/spoiler-box]

Can I have your autograph?

Written with your elysion pen.

On my elysion.

edit: Also what's really holding ice back these days is its status effect and lack of a fast, tracking, single-target tech (Imagine if Sabarta tracked like Grants - that is necessary here). If Freeze didn't lock something in place (preventing zondeel/sazan/other vacuums), or if it just slowed things down instead like it did in Mass Effect 2 & 3 it would be much more viable and versatile. Other secondary effects, like a 5% weakness to all damage (to kick in Weak Stance & Weak Hit Advance) or a damage bonus to the hit that shatters ice (Replace all Freeze Ignition damage bonuses with this) are also options.

[TaigaUC]

You can stack multiple SaZonde? I thought it was only one per target.
The Zonde and Gizonde casting range in that video looks longer than I remember.
I didn't know RaZan had Grants range. Was it always like that?

And I thought you had to have both hidden switches up to spawn the jump pad.
I didn't know you could do one and then get the other after the first disappears.

[gigawuts]

You can stack multiple SaZonde? I thought it was only one per target.
The Zonde and Gizonde casting range in that video looks longer than I remember.
I didn't know RaZan had Grants range. Was it always like that?

And I thought you had to have both hidden switches up to spawn the jump pad.
I didn't know you could do one and then get the other after the first disappears.

You can stack as many sazonde as you can cast. This is what makes it such an effective PP dump with the elysion - an uncharged sazonde only deals 2 hits instead of 4, but it also deals a smidgen more damage per tic. Double the damage, get more damage per tic, it's win/win.

[Z-0]

You can stack multiple SaZonde? I thought it was only one per target.
The Zonde and Gizonde casting range in that video looks longer than I remember.
I didn't know RaZan had Grants range. Was it always like that?

And I thought you had to have both hidden switches up to spawn the jump pad.
I didn't know you could do one and then get the other after the first disappears.
Razan and Sazan both have infinite range if you can get a lock.

For Lilipa, you can get one switch at a time providing that when a button disappears, it is held down, because then it stays held down indefinitely.

This means there is no need to wait on green/blue unless the people on the east path haven't made it to the final room yet.

[TaigaUC]

Ah, holding them down as they disappear. So that's the trick. Thanks.

SaZan has infinite range? I thought it was super short.
I need to actually lock onto a target?

So that's why everyone keeps talking about Elysion+SaZonde.
I thought it was just the latent making it strong. Didn't know you could stack.
This whole Elysion thing is really frustrating for anyone who isn't lucky enough to get one.

[gigawuts]

Sazan has infinite range providing it can get a target to lock on to. You can't TPS it to infinite range like rafoie, it requires something to actually target. Basically, if you can target something by tapping your tab key sazan can (and likely will) hit it regardless of the range. If not it will stay right up against your nose.

edit: Also, TPSing works if you direct your attack towards something you could have tab targeted. So you can TPS over switches with sazan, or leave it in normal auto-target mode, or hit tab to select that specific target. All three will work.

[Z-0]

You can TPS Sazan to infinite range:

http://youtu.be/AFfo4lQucsI?t=2m9s

Unless that got patched recently! (This video is like a year old)

edit: el ninja'd by editwuts

[TaigaUC]

Okay, thanks. So it's infinite as long as I'm within range for lock-on to stay on.
Edit: or not?

I haven't been using SaZan for long.
Recently got the rank 16s, and I've barely played any of my casters.
I never use my casters for TA anymore.

[TaigaUC]

edit: Also, TPSing works if you direct your attack towards something you could have tab targeted. So you can TPS over switches with sazan, or leave it in normal auto-target mode, or hit tab to select that specific target. All three will work.

Does that mean you can tab target switches from long distance?

Which techs does that TPS/tab rule work with?
I was only aware that Grants could do it.

[Z-0]

Rafoie, Razan, Sazan, Grants are all I'm aware of.

[gigawuts]

Sabarta as well.

Basically, any tech cast at a distance that isn't Zonde, since Zonde has a whole bunch of wonky properties. Also, some of these won't go through walls (sabarta won't). Some will damage through force field barriers (grants, rafoie, razan), others won't (sazan, but sazan's suction still works).

[TaigaUC]

Thanks.

Weirdass properties.

[Inazuma]

TIL neckbeards can contradict themselves without washing their filthy mouths.

I meant they are shit at Force without Elysion, not shit as a person.

[milranduil]

I meant they are shit at Force without Elysion, not shit as a person.

Yeah, that's not what they're talking about.

[gigawuts]

Keep trying Inazuma! If you backpedal any harder maybe you'll go back in time like in that Superman movie! And then you can just not make the OP!

[ShinMaruku]

The weakness of force is so greatly overstated. Speaking of which my force has returned, :P

[Natsu Nem]

I love playing my FO because its not braindead OP like what BR and GU has become. Not once have I ever felt worthless as a FO and I always strive to make the most out of class mechanics. If I see someone outperforming me, I analyze them closely to see what they are doing so that I can improve myself as a player. So far, it's only the occasional geared BR because lolshunka and the rare GU who utilizes the most of out of GU mechanics.

But shit like this...

I considered myself as slow, weak and worthless before I found Elysion. I could barely even attack any enemy at all. The difference is like night and day.


I meant they are shit at Force without Elysion, not shit as a person.

...is just simply unacceptable.

Does anyone know if Inazuma had a broken leg recently because that Elysion is making out to be a pretty decent clutch.

[Zorafim]

...Dude, just go Ice if you want to go Ice.

Oh no. I've gone down this road before. Never again. I struggled through the first thirty levels of force before giving up and going fire, and watching my damage output double. I love having chunks of ice hurtle towards my enemies, but not enough to completely destroy my gameplay.

[Enforcer MKV]

Oh no. I've gone down this road before. Never again. I struggled through the first thirty levels of force before giving up and going fire, and watching my damage output double. I love having chunks of ice hurtle towards my enemies, but not enough to completely destroy my gameplay.

Like I said, your call in the end.

[Gardios]

If I can make it to 40 without PP Charge Revival, then I firmly believe that using just ice techs works, too. Especially with the recent buffs and all.

[GoldenFalcon]

Oh no. I've gone down this road before. Never again. I struggled through the first thirty levels of force before giving up and going fire, and watching my damage output double. I love having chunks of ice hurtle towards my enemies, but not enough to completely destroy my gameplay.

But you use Bandersnatch on partisan, what is the difference? lol

[Dark Priest]

I love playing my FO because its not braindead OP like what BR and GU has become. Not once have I ever felt worthless as a FO and I always strive to make the most out of class mechanics. If I see someone outperforming me, I analyze them closely to see what they are doing so that I can improve myself as a player. So far, it's only the occasional geared BR because lolshunka and the rare GU who utilizes the most of out of GU mechanics.

But shit like this...



...is just simply unacceptable.

Does anyone know if Inazuma had a broken leg recently because that Elysion is making out to be a pretty decent clutch.

It seems that some people are shit players naturally (as he just admitted), and somehow, in some strange way an item automaticly turns them into some great, awsome player (in thier mind) in a game that is already of little challange, crutch is indeed the right word (i assume that is what you meant)

[Zorafim]

But you use Bandersnatch on partisan, what is the difference? lol

Bandersnatch is prettier.

[Freshellent]

I'm am literally baffled as to why after all of these years, people still respond to that person. It's like everyone wants to see something terrible happen over and over again.

Generally I keep my mouth shut but seriously, you'll all be that much better off if you just straight up ignore him.

Also, on the subject of 'doing what you want' in a Phantasy Star game only goes so far. We get a bit more leeway than other games, yes. When you limit yourself of certain things in PS it's kind of limiting your ability to actually enjoy yourself. Spread Needles, Rafoie, Slicers, Jabroga- could be avoided only because there are other answers. After you skipped past that, auto attacking isn't gonna suddenly make you original and cool.

Better off just playing something else at that rate.

[Zorafim]

Yeah, that's how I felt when I switched to fire. On the one hand, I did enjoy the sparkles that floated around my character whenever I cast an ice spell. On the other hand, switching to fire was like suddenly grinding a rare to +10 when you've been using 1~3*s.

[Ratazana]

It's like everyone wants to see something terrible happen over and over again.

yes, please

[UnLucky]

Oh no. I've gone down this road before. Never again. I struggled through the first thirty levels of force before giving up and going fire, and watching my damage output double. I love having chunks of ice hurtle towards my enemies, but not enough to completely destroy my gameplay.
Well it doesn't have a catch-all like Rafoie, and Efficient Foie is much better than Efficient Barta, plus even faster casted Gifoie and Nafoie are both amazing at what they do.

But I'd wager Ice is better than Light at this point. If Sabarta were real then it could surpass even Dark.

It's definitely usable, and T-Atk High Up does an alright job at filling the hole of Tech JA, at least for now while the static gain is still comparable. It just doesn't have PP Save or S Charge or Sazan.

I also find it funny how Sabarta and Nabarta are the only ice techs to not get a boost at 16, when they are by far the worst ones.

[TaigaUC]

Does anyone know if Inazuma had a broken leg recently

You know how these games work.
The difference between yourself and others relies heavily on who you play with and how well you're geared up.
You need to gear up to keep up. It doesn't matter how good you are as a person or player.
The better geared they are, the more useless you feel.

That's not to say you can't beat enemies by skill and perseverence.
But you're deluding yourself if you seriously believe you can be as quick and efficient as players who have better gear.

To simplify:
Good player+Average gear < Good player+Best gear
Good player+Average gear <= Bad player+Good gear
Good player+Crap gear < Bad player+Good gear

I've never understood why people try to draw connections between skill and gear in these games.
They are intentionally designed to focus heavily on itemization.

[Shadowth117]

You know how these games work.
The difference between yourself and others relies heavily on who you play with and how well you're geared up.
You need to gear up to keep up. It doesn't matter how good you are as a person or player.
The better geared they are, the more useless you feel.

That's not to say you can't beat enemies by skill and perseverence.
But you're deluding yourself if you seriously believe you can be as quick and efficient as players who have better gear.

To simplify:
Good player+Average gear < Good player+Best gear
Good player+Average gear <= Bad player+Good gear
Good player+Crap gear < Bad player+Good gear

I've never understood why people try to draw connections between skill and gear in these games.
They are intentionally designed to focus heavily on itemization.

I'm actually going to disagree with this to some extent. I've seen crap players come in with xq weapons and good units only to get outperformed by people who are actually decent and still leveling their characters (and so having temporary horrible gear). Skill plays a good part in this game, but most of the top classes right now (Oh, look at you gunner and braver :D) are spammy as hell right now. When the ideal output is easier to achieve, it does definitely tend to make gear matter more. But I'd still argue there's a distinct enough difference in this game as opposed to pso or psu for sure.

[Zenobia]

Don't know why you saying Braver and Gunner are spammy as hell when all the classes are. So what is your point as far as classes are concerned? Skill does play a part in this game idc how good your gear is if you don't have the current knowledge to know enemy patterns and how the bosses/enemies act at certain phases of hp and die to them well you got a lot of practice to do.

[gigawuts]

Don't know why you saying Braver and Gunner are spammy as hell when all the classes are. So what is your point as far as classes are concerned?

Ha ha ha, remember when FO was OP because of rafoie?

Ha ha ha.

[Zenobia]

Ha ha ha, remember when FO was OP because of rafoie?

Ha ha ha.

That stuff was hilarious brings back memories when Hunter was the shit class way back when.

[GoldenFalcon]

Skill does play a part in this game idc how good your gear is if you don't have the current knowledge

Stop there

Skill and knowledge are entirely different

[Zenobia]

Stop there

Skill and knowledge are entirely different

Nice catch I should have went back and looked over it I should have said "AND if you have the knowledge" thank you for that.

[Coatl]

Yeah...I don't think you really have to be that skilled to be good in PSO2. To keep yourself alive it's mostly about just reacting fast enough. To kill a boss fast is just knowing what works best in what place and at what time.

[Zenobia]

Meeh different strokes for different folks I suppose not everyone is able to adept that quickly to certain bosses but given time they can. Its only after that you see how hard it is to actually die in this game

[Ratazana]

All you gotta know is what is OP at the moment and abuse it. The best force is the one that saves it for when it's actually needed and roll br for td.

[TaigaUC]

If anything, I just wish people were smarter about using Zonde in groups.
There are a lot of times where it's way better to simply gather up all the enemies into one spot so that they die instantly.
But instead we get people detonating Zonde immediately every time.

I don't think there's any group situation where a single person's Zonde or Zondeel is going to do more damage than all enemies grouped into a single point and the entire muiltiparty attacking that single point simultaneously. You're free to use those techs to their full potential when you're alone or synced with people you know.

There are other spells for damage, but there's only one Zondeel.
I specced Territory Burst because everyone said it was necessary for bursts and such, yet I rarely get to use it for its intended purpose.
I think that's sad.

That reminds me... a related question:
Do the random weather lightning bolts detonate Zondeel?

[Ratazana]

Lol you really must hate that. Zondeal is gunner's best friend but now braver is king and doesn't need it anyways.

It was fun doing zondeal exit burts but that's in the past now.

I think that a lightning detoned my zondeal once. It was rainning and I didn't see any other force in the mpa but I could be wrong.

[TaigaUC]

As a Braver, I like having all the enemies in one spot.
That way, I don't have Shunka Shunran flying off 90 degrees to the side in the wrong direction somewhere offscreen where nobody is.

One of the things I complained about in the survey is that PSO2 judges frontal target/direction based on character facing instead of camera facing.
It makes a lot more sense to have it based on camera because that's where the player is looking.
They should really add an option for people to choose what suits them best.

I also complained about the auto aim dragging characters off to the side instead of attacking what's directly in front of them.
We shouldn't have to toggle aiming mode just to travel in a straight line.

[UnLucky]

Detonated Zondeel is great for small parties on Lillipa, or giant PSE bursts in the middle of nowhere. Stacking loads of AoE in all directions with bonus PP regen does wonders against small trash mobs.

But not in Base Defense. Nothing is weak to lightning, and Goldies are too beefy.

[Inazuma]

If anything, I just wish people were smarter about using Zonde in groups.
There are a lot of times where it's way better to simply gather up all the enemies into one spot so that they die instantly.
But instead we get people detonating Zonde immediately every time.

I don't think there's any group situation where a single person's Zonde or Zondeel is going to do more damage than all enemies grouped into a single point and the entire muiltiparty attacking that single point simultaneously. You're free to use those techs to their full potential when you're alone or synced with people you know.

There are other spells for damage, but there's only one Zondeel.
I specced Territory Burst because everyone said it was necessary for bursts and such, yet I rarely get to use it for its intended purpose.
I think that's sad.

That reminds me... a related question:
Do the random weather lightning bolts detonate Zondeel?
Exactly right. Even if Zonde was stronger than Sazan, it still wouldn't be worth using because it activates Zondeel. That's why even if you built your character around maximum Zonde damage and you are fighting enemies only weak to lightning, you still shouldn't use Zonde because you will end up killing the enemies slower, thanks to activating Zondeel.

There is usually at least one shit Force spamming Zonde in every MPA. They think Zonde is the best attack, but it's actually worse than not attacking at all. I was doing the Coast limited quest today for 2 hours and every time I tried to use Zondeel, it got activated right away. It's so frustrating.

I don't think the weather lightning bolts activate Zondeel.

[jooozek]

you know, zondeel doesn't deserve all the praise it gets: it's annoying like fuck to have some idiot force move from place to place the mob while i try to messiah time that shit or even heel stab in some cases missed, not preparing the vacuum before the group comes also doesn't help, how the fuck i am supposed to know when is that force going to release the PA button? not a problem with a talis but rod forces, jesus christ

[UnLucky]

Which is exactly why Sazan is the worst thing to use on minibosses like Caterdraan, Mizer, and Org Blan. Well Zondeel too, but they both displace the boss away from all the DPS. You need Namegid, or at least Zan or something.

[TaigaUC]

Yeah, Zondeel can get annoying. It's a matter of whether everyone expects it.
The best scenario is if if it's used properly and consistently, in the right situations.

I was doing the limited quest earlier and someone kept detonating my Zondeel.
Once or twice, I intentionally ran far away from the group, away from the boss they were fighting, and Zondeel'd adds far off on the side that nobody was attacking.
Someone still detonated my Zondeel. WTF.

I also don't think detonated Zondeel is as effective in a large group if it's only two casters using it.
If it was a bunch of casters all at once, then it'd probably be okay.
Zondeel+Techer Wand melee is another factor to consider against detonating.

SEGA should really just give us the option of letting other people detonate our Zondeel.
It's all their fault.

[Sanguine2009]

some mag attack actions can activate zondeel too it seems, was running TA with a ra/hu a while ago and was trying to figure out why my zondeel kept activating, turns out they had a bolt type mag attack and their mag was detonating my zondeel

[TaigaUC]

Really? That's terrible.

[Ce'Nedra]

Yup Libra mag (S-atk + T-atk hybrid) shoots Bolt which triggers Zondeel. Happend to me alot. Can you change that my using a mag cell or does your mag keep the same Trigger Action?

[Arada]

You can/should change it. :)

[BIG OLAF]

Yeah, spend a couple of EXcubes and change it out. Get a fire shot, or and ice shot or something. Not like any of them are inherently useful, since I don't think I've ever seen a Mag attack break like 200 damage, but it'll stop the Zondeel trigger, at least.

[HIT0SHI]

Well you could get a Blow action were it tackles and knocks down enemies, It's pretty good if you wanna hit enemies on a weakspot or ambush a big anemy but they keep moving (like the ones with the big shields).
It essentialy makes them fall down and then obviesly they get back up which makes it pretty good imo.

[Ce'Nedra]

Hmm I should get a other action then ;3

[UnLucky]

The knockdown can ruin Brave Stance, though, depending on the enemy.

[TaigaUC]

I started throwing out Zondeels during a lightning storm and it didn't seem to detonate.

[Kanade]

cool vid cool fo!

[Kondibon]

The regular attack action staggers enemies without knocking them down or up. It's probably the most useful without being disruptive.

[Z-0]

cool vid cool fo!
You obviously know nothing if you think ボブ is a good FO.

[ChocoboRRR]

Yay that is the force player that leads me double point leads on TD against sasuno geared players.

[Shadowth117]

You obviously know nothing if you think ボブ is a good FO.

Don't quit your day job man.

[ChiffonFairchild]

I'll have you guys know that more Elysions you have, the better you are as a force. True facts, I have so many Elysions that I'm the best strongest in history, even when I'm not on force!

Proof:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/fcsELcq.png
My mag can clear a whole wave when it uses uses zan. Also totally true and no photoshop was used in the making of this screenshot. [/spoiler-box]

Based Elysion! So with my one Elysion does that mean I'm an elite FO|TE/XX among the most elite? Based Chiffon FTW. Oh, I have Sazan 16! I must be a god!

[Bellion]

If you don't at least have 2 Elysions you can't dual-wield. Non dual-wielding Elysion users are scrubs, fact.

Although, Walkure shits on everyone.

[TaigaUC]

You guys are making it sound like Elysion is pointless and useless.
Would you say it's not even worth getting and grinding at all?

I'd like to know so I can stop wasting time trying to get it.

[milranduil]

You guys are making it sound like Elysion is pointless and useless.
Would you say it's not even worth getting and grinding at all?

I'd like to know so I can stop wasting time trying to get it.

You're clearly not working hard enough for it. Step it up.

[TaigaUC]

At the JP swiki, commenters recommend using it for SaZan, NaMegid, SaZonde and NaBarta.

So if I'm understanding this right, Elysion an important part of caster repertoire, but doesn't replace everything in all situations?
That still makes it a must-have for maximum effectiveness, doesn't it?

It's getting kinda confusing, because whenever I glance at this thread, it's filled with intense sarcasm mocking the over-importance of Elysion.
I'd like to know exactly how worthwhile it is. Especially before I waste a billion meseta grinding it (if I ever get it).
Is it more of a situational thing, or is there a significant increase in effectiveness when using the above techs?

[Z-0]

Oh, Elysyhon is a very good tool, and is extremely useful in the right situations, but it's not the best thing for every single thing ever.

[TaigaUC]

Would you say it's necessary to respec just to use it more effectively?
Or could one probably get by with their current tree?

Which situations is Elysion particularly useful for?

[The Walrus]

Whenever you feel the need to spam uncharged Sazan and uh...uuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh after that I dunno...

[Bellion]

Really, some of these questions are answered when you get one and use it.
So far when using in TAs, uncharged Namegids can kill VH El Ada on their cores, Zondeel->Namegid SH sanct mobs(Set Sadin, Sil Sadin, Baridran, Deegalla, Nodiran) and even the Dirandal riders, Sazonde on Tranmizer only when running a lightning spec.

Having a build for an Elysion with the purpose of Sazan on every mob and Namegid on bosses only still feels mediocre.
Keep in mind I play this game to kill things as fast as possible in an effective manner and I feel an Elysion isn't godly as some people make it. It does fill in some gaps that no other Fo or Te weapon can accomplish.

[TaigaUC]

The questions won't be answered until you grind the Elysion to level 3 first, otherwise it'd just be the same as a normal wand, wouldn't it?
Thanks for the explanations anyway.

Does NaMegid have AOE properties without customization?
If not Elysion, what's the most preferred Fo/Te weapon nowadays?

[milranduil]

The questions won't be answered until you grind the Elysion to level 3 first, otherwise it'd just be the same as a normal wand, wouldn't it?
Thanks for the explanations anyway.

Does NaMegid have AOE properties without customization?
If not Elysion, what's the most preferred Fo/Te weapon nowadays?

When you Zondeel mobs together, their hitboxes overlap quite a bit, so when you use Namegid during that overlap it can hit multiple enemies without tech crafting.

[Bellion]

Yeah, it would be useless without grinding it 4 times in a row.

Namegid does have AoE but it's very small and requires Zondeel. Before I customized it to have more AoE, an uncharged Namegid would always hit a Vol Dragon's infection core. After I customized it, the Namegid hits Vol's top horn instead of the infection core and so I have to break Vol's horn before actually hitting the infection. It is a detriment in that case but Nafoie can still cover that.

Most preferred? I don't know. All three tech weapons have some use.

[TaigaUC]

I didn't know it had AOE without customization. Interesting. Thanks.
So with AOE customization it won't always hit the primary target? That's pretty stupid.

I meant most preferred as in, a specific weapon.
I'm using crap like Biblas Rod, Heretic Saw and Windmill.

[Z-0]

Even without AoE customization, Namegid won't always hit the target you want it to.

For example, you cannot hit Quartz's infection with a Namegid; it will always hit the head instead (charged, anyway, never tried uncharged).

[TaigaUC]

Oh? Never noticed that. That's really stupid then.

[milranduil]

My favorite is when you just finish a Namegid charge on banther/banshee, and it hits one of their claws instead because they flailed about at the last second :wacko:

[TaigaUC]

My favorite is when you clearly WB an enemy's head and it magically appears on their hand or butt or something equally ridiculous.

[MetalDude]

Diffuse Shell likes to do equally stupid things such as hitting a Cater's body instead of its tail even if you're far behind him or hitting Banther anywhere except for his head. At least Aiming Shot 16 is a thing, but damn the hit properties of moves can be so unwieldy.

[Bellion]

Uncharged Namegid will still hit Quartz head instead of the infection without the customization.

The hitboxes of Banther claws are just too big.

[UnLucky]

I didn't know it had AOE without customization. Interesting. Thanks.
So with AOE customization it won't always hit the primary target? That's pretty stupid.

I meant most preferred as in, a specific weapon.
I'm using crap like Biblas Rod, Heretic Saw and Windmill.

Well the Heretic is still good. Unless you want to spam Sazan without Elysion, then you'd want Green Duel Gaze. Or Motav during Photon Flare, or XQ weapons without weather (read: boss room), or something with PP Save for ultra spam.

For rods, there's similar top stuff with JA/EWH/XQ/PP, Satellite Riser for lightning and Demonic Fork for dark (a talis might be better for Namegid, haven't really used it).

Then there's jokes like Biblas Bow for funny Banish Arrow boss blasting which works surprisingly well with Namegid. Probably the only 'hybrid' weapon worth casting offensive techs from, unless someone's gotten good results with Brauvint.

[TaigaUC]

Thanks. Weren't people saying the JA bonus is kinda crappy?

[UnLucky]

It's 5%, but works on everything. EWH latent is 6% but a lot more restrictive.

Single element or species latents are more powerful, but obviously require a specific build. That, and there's not always a strong enough weapon with that latent. Crafting reduces that advantage somewhat, as well.

Consider the 7* wands with 16% fire/ice/lightning latents. Fully crafted at +10, their T-Atk is 896. Heretic Saw is 879 and Stark Katze is 1060. With the 5% JA and the ~10% higher minimum, they're already really close in effectiveness without factoring in Talis Tech Bonus or higher innate T-Atk on the rod, and that's with any element you want. Not to mention the slower wand casting speed.

Thankfully there are rods/tali with lightning/wind/light/dark latents and a bit more heft to them, even crafted, so they'd be your best bet if you really wanted to run pure element. But fire/ice need an all purpose weapon, which acts like a baseline for the other elements, so it's up to you if it's worth buying more.

[FacelessRed]

Started this thread interested in the way they worked out the damage, then it became:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/cl8vNVO.gif?1[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Ratazana]

Started this thread interested in the way they worked out the damage, then it became:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/cl8vNVO.gif?1[/SPOILER-BOX]

I like the way you said something in the op but posted a video that said another. Zonde above all things! Guaranteed to give career forces an allergic reaction.

[FacelessRed]

I like the way you said something in the op but posted a video that said another. Zonde above all things! Guaranteed to give career forces an allergic reaction.

I'm sorry, but whatever do you mean?

[UnLucky]

Well you got your answer in the first reply. The rest was a debate on whether 14k Zonde is actually something worth trying for.

[FacelessRed]

Well you got your answer in the first reply. The rest was a debate on whether 14k Zonde is actually something worth trying for.

I can only guess you're talking to me. And that is why I put the gif in there. Because the entire thread became ridiculous. And how many people begun arguing was also ridiculous.

[TaigaUC]

Humans are a ridiculous species.

[Ratazana]

You: OMG Zonde 14k!! (sounding like someone who loves to burst zondeal) *posts TA video where zonde is the least impressive thing*
Dude 1 talking about the post (didn't bother to watch the video): do not zonde nub elysion or gto
Dude 2 talking about the video (didn't bother to read the post): wat? zonde rulez lilipa
*Dude 1 and Dude 2 duke it out*
Hilarity issues.

[gigawuts]

The only thing that disappoints me about this thread is how few people dogpiled onto it.

[ShinMaruku]

As a likkle youth mi a go school
Dem always seh mi nuh hear nuttn
And from dem time deh till now mi nuh run from trouble
That's what this thread told me. :E

[FacelessRed]

You: OMG Zonde 14k!! (sounding like someone who loves to burst zondeal) *posts TA video where zonde is the least impressive thing*
Dude 1 talking about the post (didn't bother to watch the video): do not zonde nub elysion or gto
Dude 2 talking about the video (didn't bother to read the post): wat? zonde rulez lilipa
*Dude 1 and Dude 2 duke it out*
Hilarity issues.

.. uh huh. Okay.

Burst zondeal? what does that mean? You mean Activate it? It depends on what I'm doing, usually no reason to.

To address the thread as a whole and you as well:
I have an Elysion for one build and my new character is just a straight traditional force/te. But seeing 14k on a basic attack from Force that generally doesn't see those kind of numbers was intriguing, because the overall effectiveness of force in comparison to my gunner that can down a Quarts in a few seconds was a very skewed experience for me. Pardon me for liking to play the game and not being super elite omg look how stupid this guy is for zonde etc or activating Zondeels. 1 shot kill with zonde is impressive to me; like I care about it being "the least impressive" by whoever's standards you're judging that by.

If someone wants to activate Zondeel then they can go right ahead, it's not like it matters in MPA's when everything dies in 2 seconds or less. and IN TA's I'm not foaming at the mouth and snorting cocain as part of my daily ritual so I tend to stay away from players who take the game that seriously. As seen in this thread in general, you guys are pretty up tight and over the top, and need to re-evaluate your life perspective.

All That being said I still find 14k Zonde impressive when I see nowhere near that on my force for almost any Tech, though she is only level 50, and if I had a 14k Zonde I'd use it whether someone says that it is inefficient or not.

And as a piece of life advice, Extrapolating my playstyle habits or lifestyle from my original post is just gross, and very weird.

[UnLucky]

Well Fo/Te is one of the weakest tech classes, so no surprise there.

And yes it is very civil of you to insult people who don't share your exact philosophy, I'm glad you don't care about anything, you're so cool and casual and normal.

Go ahead and use what you feel is impressive, even if nobody else finds it remotely close.

[FacelessRed]

Well Fo/Te is one of the weakest tech classes, so no surprise there.

And yes it is very civil of you to insult people who don't share your exact philosophy, I'm glad you don't care about anything, you're so cool and casual and normal.

Go ahead and use what you feel is impressive, even if nobody else finds it remotely close.

Argument ad populum and ad hominem. You astound me with your superiority. Woe is me. This thread needs to be shut down, it's beginning to reek.

[UnLucky]

Oh man, this guy knows latin. That excuses all the times he is guilty of exactly the same thing.

[Coatl]

Today is a bad day to be a lightning FO in PSO-W I see.

[jooozek]

i found today a satellite riser
segac, are you telling me to start igniting all dat shit

[FacelessRed]

Oh man, this guy knows latin. That excuses all the times he is guilty of exactly the same thing.

My remark about what players who take the game so seriously is not an ad hominem fallacy as I am presenting no case for or against what they say, I'm simply stating that their arguments, and attitude holds no bearing on my play style. therefor No, I'm not doing exactly the same thing.

However trying to say that my playstyle (however you have come to figure that out as I've never stated definitively how I actually play my force and or what techs I actually use) Is inferior because everyone else thinks so, not only is a fallacy, but you attempted to make it a legitimate statement by saying I have a flaw with my character due to a completely irrelevant statement.

Now if you actually said something or asked something worthy of at least a couple of brain cells rubbing together you may actually learn something about me other than just spitting out random assumptions.

This is still necessary:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/cl8vNVO.gif?1[/SPOILER-BOX]

[ChiffonFairchild]

What I would like to see in this message. Team Stop Giving A F*** About What Others Say.


.. uh huh. Okay.

Burst zondeel? what does that mean? You mean Activate it? It depends on what I'm doing, usually no reason to.

To address the thread as a whole and you as well:
I have an Elysion for one build and my new character is just a straight traditional force/te. But seeing 14k on a basic attack from Force that generally doesn't see those kind of numbers was intriguing, because the overall effectiveness of force in comparison to my gunner that can down a QuartZ in a few seconds was a very skewed experience for me. Pardon me for liking to play the game and not being super elite omg look how stupid this guy is for zonde etc or activating Zondeels. 1 shot kill with zonde is impressive to me; like I care about it being "the least impressive" by whoever's standards you're judging that by.

If someone wants to activate Zondeel then they can go right ahead, it's not like it matters in MPA's when everything dies in 2 seconds or less. and IN TA's I'm not foaming at the mouth and snorting cocain as part of my daily ritual so I tend to stay away from players who take the game that seriously. As seen in this thread in general, you guys are pretty up tight and over the top, and need to re-evaluate your life perspective.

All That being said I still find 14k Zonde impressive when I see nowhere near that on my force for almost any Tech, though she is only level 50, and if I had a 14k Zonde I'd use it whether someone says that it is inefficient or not.

And as a piece of life advice, Extrapolating my playstyle habits or lifestyle from my original post is just gross, and very weird.

[Z-0]

On the topic of Zondeel, I feel like people really overexaggerate how much you would use it in MPA.

In MPA everything should be dead before you can Zondeel anyway, or you're playing with somewhat weak(-er) players.

In a map where you can one shot using a technique like Zonde, that would be faster than you walking up, using Zondeel and then something else, because if you're in a 12-man MPA, things should be dead before you can Zondeel, and using Zondeel is going to move stuff that other people might be attacking, which can be irritating unless you're on the spawn point already.

I mean, if you're playing solo play, walking up and using Zondeel and then Zonde / Sazan / Something else will obviously be faster, as picking each thing off one by one is pretty slow.

Now on the topic of 14,000 Zonde, ボブさん has this equipment:

Satellite Riser +10 - Latent Level 3, Elder Soul, Technique III, Ability III, Technique Boost
Magica Set:
Unit 1 - Ragne Soul, Technique III, Stigma, Ability III, Technique Boost
Unit 2 - Ragne Soul, Technique III, Stigma, Ability III, Technique Boost
Unit 3 - Elder Soul, Technique III, Spirita III, Ability III, Mutation I, Technique Boost

Skill Tree will look like this: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06fbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbIn 0000000lb000009b000000lb0000084OI22SIkjcAcAcKIb000 07b0000000IOdB4NfcKrIJ2Hn0000j (Force/Braver)

Personally I think he'd be better with 5 more points in T-Atk Up than PP Bolt Save, as Bolt Save isn't really a necessity after the first 5 points.

His Zonde has -0.24s charge time (boo!), and is obviously level 16.

Also using +30 T-Atk Cake along with 18% Team Tree Attack boost, with level 16 Shifta and Random Drink EX with Weak Element Bonus.

Also I don't mean to be rude, but:


IN TA's I'm not foaming at the mouth and snorting cocain as part of my daily ritual so I tend to stay away from players who take the game that seriously. As seen in this thread in general, you guys are pretty up tight and over the top, and need to re-evaluate your life perspective.
Offensive, much? You make it sound like because someone wants to be efficient they're doing the equivalent of drugs. It's not taking the game "that seriously", but in a different manner, and I feel like people need to grasp this before taking it out on people.

[UnLucky]

My remark about what players who take the game so seriously is not an ad hominem fallacy as I am presenting no case for or against what they say, I'm simply stating that their arguments, and attitude holds no bearing on my play style. therefor No, I'm not doing exactly the same thing.
Oh yes, I was totally not replying to you saying, and I quote:
foaming at the mouth and snorting cocain as part of [their] daily ritual
That's clearly not attacking the people who "take the game that seriously" in an attempt to discredit their side of the discussion in this thread. No, they need to "re-evaluate their life perspective" because you don't share the same priorities.


if I had a 14k Zonde I'd use it whether someone says that it is inefficient or not.
It is not a stretch to assume that had you a 14k Zonde, you would use it regardless of its effectiveness, based on the above quote. Or is that just a wild assumption with nothing to back it up?

Slowing down 11 other people is a legitimate concern. Maybe if you weren't so egotistical, you would realize that you aren't the center of the universe. But no, it's everyone else's fault that they aren't having as much fun as you inconveniencing them. It's not just opinion that activated Zondeel takes longer than killing everything around in one shot. People think that way for a reason, you know. Not solely because everyone else already feels that way, but based on cold hard facts.

[Inazuma]

All That being said I still find 14k Zonde impressive when I see nowhere near that on my force for almost any Tech, though she is only level 50, and if I had a 14k Zonde I'd use it whether someone says that it is inefficient or not.

It would indeed be inefficient. It doesn't matter if Zonde does 14k and one shots. It still sucks. And not just because it activates Zondeel, which is horrible by itself. But just talking about the DPS, it's not as good as it seems.

First off, to even attack with Zonde in the first place, the enemies need to survive long enough for you charge it. That alone is a major problem. But assuming that you are in a weak party and the enemies survive for one second, it's still not good to use Zonde. The DPS is bad. It has limited range. It can't hit enemies behind walls.

Uncharged Sazan with Elysion is super quick, so you are able to attack fast enough even when enemies die instantly. It has huge range and it can go through walls. The DPS is higher than Zonde because you are able to attack sooner, and more often.

Instead of doing one charged Zonde, you could do two or three Sazans in the same amount of time, and end up doing way more damage.

And if you factor in how Zonde activates Zondeel and Sazan does not, it's no contest.

So why did this amazing Force named Bob use Zonde in Time Attack, if he is such a pro? Maybe because subbing BR gives him access to quad dash, which is more important than fighting the enemies. And since he is subbing BR instead of TE, Zonde would actually be better than Sazan if you are able to do enough damage to one shot. You are able to move while charging Zonde, whereas you have to stand still to spam uncharged Sazan, so that's a factor as well. Basically, movement speed > fighting enemies in Time Attack.

Does anyone know if this pro Force named Bob plays the same way outside of Time Attack?

[gigawuts]

I, too, took a logic class in highschool and/or community college.

[FacelessRed]

On the topic of Zondeel, I feel like people really overexaggerate how much you would use it in MPA.

In MPA everything should be dead before you can Zondeel anyway, or you're playing with somewhat weak(-er) players.

In a map where you can one shot using a technique like Zonde, that would be faster than you walking up, using Zondeel and then something else, because if you're in a 12-man MPA, things should be dead before you can Zondeel, and using Zondeel is going to move stuff that other people might be attacking, which can be irritating unless you're on the spawn point already.

I mean, if you're playing solo play, walking up and using Zondeel and then Zonde / Sazan / Something else will obviously be faster, as picking each thing off one by one is pretty slow.

Now on the topic of 14,000 Zonde, ボブさん has this equipment:

Satellite Riser +10 - Latent Level 3, Elder Soul, Technique III, Ability III, Technique Boost
Magica Set:
Unit 1 - Ragne Soul, Technique III, Stigma, Ability III, Technique Boost
Unit 2 - Ragne Soul, Technique III, Stigma, Ability III, Technique Boost
Unit 3 - Elder Soul, Technique III, Spirita III, Ability III, Mutation I, Technique Boost

Skill Tree will look like this: http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06fbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbIn 0000000lb000009b000000lb0000084OI22SIkjcAcAcKIb000 07b0000000IOdB4NfcKrIJ2Hn0000j (Force/Braver)

Personally I think he'd be better with 5 more points in T-Atk Up than PP Bolt Save, as Bolt Save isn't really a necessity after the first 5 points.

His Zonde has -0.24s charge time (boo!), and is obviously level 16.

Also using +30 T-Atk Cake along with 18% Team Tree Attack boost, with level 16 Shifta and Random Drink EX with Weak Element Bonus.

Also I don't mean to be rude, but:


Offensive, much? You make it sound like because someone wants to be efficient they're doing the equivalent of drugs. It's not taking the game "that seriously", but in a different manner, and I feel like people need to grasp this before taking it out on people.

Ty for the full and proper break down. But in light of the arguments in this thread, I don't think it's offensive. People are literally ripping each other to shreds over differences in time of 2-10 seconds. And it's happened a lot in the past here, not to mention the very same people will sooner call you a noob if you don't want to play that way (in game and out). Couple that with so far 2 people basically insulting me for my play style, which I again say I've made no mention of what that playstyle is (all they currently know is I have an Elysion and level 50 + force/techer) I feel my comment was well within reason.

[UnLucky]

On the topic of Zondeel, I feel like people really overexaggerate how much you would use it in MPA.

In MPA everything should be dead before you can Zondeel anyway, or you're playing with somewhat weak(-er) players.

In a map where you can one shot using a technique like Zonde, that would be faster than you walking up, using Zondeel and then something else, because if you're in a 12-man MPA, things should be dead before you can Zondeel, and using Zondeel is going to move stuff that other people might be attacking, which can be irritating unless you're on the spawn point already.
It would have to reach the levels of pre-nerf Zonde back in VH.

If everyone can oneshot from a distance, it can actually be faster than walking up/throwing a Zondeel first. But for large spawns like Codes and Bursts where travel time is reduced, solitary oneshots are slower than group oneshots with prep.

[Z-0]

If Sazan was actually better, he would've used Sazan instead, because FoTe (and anything without Step Attack) is only marginally slower than FoBr if you know what you're doing. Techer also has PPC, so you'd be able to spam Aiming Shot to chain an infinite amount of dashes together.

It's not about movement speed, that's just a bonus.

Also, Zonde charges faster than 1 second now.

And Bob probably doesn't play the same way outside of Time Attack, considering he has the PP Reduction craft on Sazan.

[FacelessRed]

Slowing down 11 other people is a legitimate concern. Maybe if you weren't so egotistical, you would realize that you aren't the center of the universe. But no, it's everyone else's fault that they aren't having as much fun as you inconveniencing them. It's not just opinion that activated Zondeel takes longer than killing everything around in one shot. People think that way for a reason, you know. Not solely because everyone else already feels that way, but based on cold hard facts.

Disregarding the stuff before this paragraph. Are you actually sitting there and timing how fast your 12 man party can take down a group of low tier spawns? because a force can probably only get 2-3 UNCHARGED techs off before the entire group is dead.

By what mathematical rules are you coming up with that I'm somehow slowing the group down by ADDING damage to the mix? That makes absolutely no sense.

[Ratazana]

Couple that with so far 2 people basically insulting me for my play style, which I again say I've made no mention of what that playstyle is (all they currently know is I have an Elysion and level 50 + force/techer) I feel my comment was well within reason.

Being proud of getting 1st place in TD speaks volumes about you.


Bob probably don't play anything else besides TD and TA.

[Arksenth]

In most MPAs I'm in, I dish out the most damage as a Zondeeling TE with Wand Gear even when the other 11 players are GUs. Tower Defense especially. You overestimate how quickly people take things down in SH. Especially when there's repeated spawns or scattered spawn patterns.

Basically: if you're too shit to recognize like maybe the three situations ever you should be using Zonde, please don't ever.

[FacelessRed]

Being proud of getting 1st place in TD speaks volumes about you.


Bob probably don't play anything else besides TD and TA.

Ah here we go again, extrapolating from nearly nothing. I don't even like TD. and often skip it. Please come up with more nonsensical statements about my character I haven't alluded to.

[Inazuma]

In most MPAs I'm in, I dish out the most damage as a Zondeeling TE with Wand Gear even when the other 11 players are GUs. Tower Defense especially. You overestimate how quickly people take things down in SH. Especially when there's repeated spawns or scattered spawn patterns.

Basically: if you're too shit to recognize like maybe the three situations ever you should be using Zonde, please don't ever.

You activate Zondeel in TD? You think activating Zondeel in TD helps clear the quest faster? Wow. I don't know what to say.

[gigawuts]

You activate Zondeel in TD? You think activating Zondeel in TD helps clear the quest faster? Wow. I don't know what to say.

Yes, that is what he said.

[Arksenth]

...why would a wand gear user activate Zondeel? Are we in Inazuma delusion zone again?

okay go run and play in the yard now so you dont get in the way of the grownups honey

[UnLucky]

By what mathematical rules are you coming up with that I'm somehow slowing the group down by ADDING damage to the mix? That makes absolutely no sense.
See, it's statements like these that betray your playstyle antics to the world. It's no secret that you eschew efficiency, as you've said as much several times now, unless you've just been playing devil's advocate the entire time. But whether or not you follow the same practices you defend is irrelevant, as the issue is with the stance, not you specifically.

Look, it's simple. If one player can do 50k in one PA, and you can do 14k with one tech, who can deal more damage?

If one player can group 10 enemies together instead of attacking, that is indeed less damage, you are correct. Until you realize that the other player who can deal 50k to one enemy can now deal 500k overall.

500k < 64k

Unless activating the Zondeel that would have grouped 10 enemies together did 436k instantly, it's worse than not using Zonde, or anything at all and simply hitting Auto Follow instead.

[ShinMaruku]

Today is a bad day to be a lightning FO in PSO-W I see.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Nicolas-Cage-Trying-to-hold-in-laughter.gif

[ChiffonFairchild]

You activate Zondeel in TD? You think activating Zondeel in TD helps clear the quest faster? Wow. I don't know what to say.

I don't think I saw anything about activating Zondeel in that statement?

[Inazuma]

...why would a wand gear user activate Zondeel? Are we in Inazuma delusion zone again?

okay go run and play in the yard now so you dont get in the way of the grownups honey

OK, good. I read that wrong.

[FacelessRed]

See, it's statements like these that betray your playstyle antics to the world. It's no secret that you eschew efficiency, as you've said as much several times now, unless you've just been playing devil's advocate the entire time. But whether or not you follow the same practices you defend is irrelevant, as the issue is with the stance, not you specifically.

Look, it's simple. If one player can do 50k in one PA, and you can do 14k with one tech, who can deal more damage?

If one player can group 10 enemies together instead of attacking, that is indeed less damage, you are correct. Until you realize that the other player who can deal 50k to one enemy can now deal 500k overall.

500k < 64k

Unless activating the Zondeel that would have grouped 10 enemies together did 436k instantly, it's worse than not using Zonde, or anything at all and simply hitting Auto Follow instead.

I don't activate zondeel, like I said in a previous statement. there is no real reason to. But again what I actually say and do is being ignored.

And if it's about the "general attitude" again, who said they'd rather activate zondeel and not group e nemies together?

And another point, who can even activate zondeel faster than it groups enemies together? and why even activate it BEFORE it does?

[Walkure]

Half the time I see someone using a lightning tech that's not zondeel, it's nazonde. I don't even know why.

[UnLucky]

Zonde persists slightly after the initial hit, so if Zondeel is cast at this point, it will be activated before the enemies are sucked into the center.

So if someone is attempting to pick off targets one at a time with Zonde, there is very little chance to Zondeel anything nearby. Even if it is still possible, it is much less likely due to the smaller window of opportunity, and then a followup attack is also less likely to succeed with constant Zonde spam.

It's even worse if Sazonde, Nazonde, or an activated Zondeel are also ticking away.

The thing is, it DOES happen. A lot. People run in with their pure lightning tree (or not even) and attempt to dish out the highest/easiest/fastest damage they can think of: Zonde.

If 14k per hit were achievable, they would flock to it, not realizing that it's more often than not actually worse than nothing at all.

Sure, against solitary enemies at a distance, or if you have enough players able to oneshot every enemy within range, Zondeel is not necessary. But many people aren't so strategic to place their Zondes where they won't ruin someone's day, or client-side mob placement gets the better of their good intentions, so it is highly discouraged to use Zonde in a group setting even if it's strong by itself.

Basically, it interrupts what other people are doing. They might consider that rude.

[Arksenth]

Less "rude", more "thanks for causing the whole MPA to get half the drops in a PSE burst, EQ or TD because we can now only kill a third as many mobs in this burst by picking them off one by one inefficiently (if we ever manage to activate one anyway because nornmal mobbing is gimped too), or because we now don't have time for three runs since you ruined it."

I mean, cool. You don't like getting truckloads of 10s and 11s. Other people in your MPA do.

[ChinaSue]

Less "rude", more "thanks for causing the whole MPA to get half the drops in a PSE burst, EQ or TD because we can now only kill a third as many mobs in this burst by picking them off one by one inefficiently (if we ever manage to activate one anyway because nornmal mobbing is gimped too), or because we now don't have time for three runs since you ruined it."

I mean, cool. You don't like getting truckloads of 10s and 11s. Other people in your MPA do.

I agree, I don't think there is ever a time in TD where you would want to activate zondeel. The mobs aren't lightning weak and the spawns are usually really clumped so it is easy to zondeel most of the spawn, especially on wave 4. The others, it is kind of situational. I think it depends on the area, how the spawns are positioned, how strong you are, and how many enemies you can consistently gather.

In general, I think it is greatly overstated how effective zondeel is in a lot of situations.

[GoldenFalcon]

So if someone is attempting to pick off targets one at a time with Zonde

This seems to be the cornerstone of your argument against Zonde

So be it

[UnLucky]

Well if you gather up a bunch of targets with Zondeel in order to use Zonde on them all, but they don't all die, then you should not have used Zonde.

Or if they did all die, but anything else spawns, you should not have used Zonde unless you cancel the active field immediately by switching weapons.

But definitely do not Zonde something in a group of mobs that someone would really like to Zondeel.

Feel free to use it anywhere else.

[Ce'Nedra]

Aside the fact you all have a lovely conversation here I would like to point out there are people in this game, yes they are rare and I am one of them, that enjoy the game when not everything dies the moment it spawns. Just throwing that out here :3

Continue on, this thread is actually good info.

[GoldenFalcon]

unless you cancel the active field immediately by switching weapons.

Wait, this is a thing? Wow, problem solved

[UnLucky]

It still only reduces the impact of activated Zondeel for further suction as opposed to eliminating it, since you're introducing a period of time where Zondeel is completely ineffective. It also adds prep time that would not be necessary if you used something else instead of lightning in the first place.

Not to mention if it's not your Zondeel, you can't cancel it, thus the problem remains decidedly unsolved.

[Zorafim]

Aside the fact you all have a lovely conversation here I would like to point out there are people in this game, yes they are rare and I am one of them, that enjoy the game when not everything dies the moment it spawns. Just throwing that out here :3

Continue on, this thread is actually good info.

That's why I've been doing my SHard boss runs. So much more fun than running around in a circle and poking the spawn animations of mobs.
Though I will admit, I've hit a bit of a snag with Quartz.
How do I spot the insta-death lasers before it's too late?

[gigawuts]

That's why I've been doing my SHard boss runs. So much more fun than running around in a circle and poking the spawn animations of mobs.
Though I will admit, I've hit a bit of a snag with Quartz.
How do I spot the insta-death lasers before it's too late?

He does a unique screech, raises his wings in a unique way, then crystals form. If you time it right you can dagger parry them while looking like a complete boss.

[Omega-z]

^ like above and his starting animation is the same as the missiles (a squat with one leg forward ), Quartz's won't Normally use the Rain Grants attack until he's at half HP.

[gigawuts]

When he does the missile barrage he keeps his wings low. When he does the grants rain he spreads his wings out.

[Omega-z]

Oh, was meaning the squat with one leg forward was the same but still referenced to your post for everything else.

[Aine]

welp i've just been skimming through this topic

two of the forces in our regular 4-run TD team are from love phoenix and they never use elysion in TD so i guess that makes them shit forces

[Zorafim]

I would love to learn how to dagger parry that move. I've done it a few times, but I don't know if I could master the timing.
Well, maybe if I watch some videos of me getting owned. I have enough, after all.

[Aine]

I would love to learn how to dagger parry that move. I've done it a few times, but I don't know if I could master the timing.
Well, maybe if I watch some videos of me getting owned. I have enough, after all.

treat the dagger spin like a just guard (same timing), the 'hitstop' on the spin will make the invincibility last long enough

[FacelessRed]

I would love to learn how to dagger parry that move. I've done it a few times, but I don't know if I could master the timing.
Well, maybe if I watch some videos of me getting owned. I have enough, after all.

I usually rely on that if it doesn't die before it gets it off. the Just guard spin. But I keep running into him on a really narrow patch of land and my camera gets stuck in a bush and I cant see crap and drop dead.

[gigawuts]

Time it based on the audio cues. When you hear the crystal rain forming count down from 3, ymmv based on how fast/slow you count.

[Zorafim]

But I keep running into him on a really narrow patch of land and my camera gets stuck in a bush and I cant see crap and drop dead.

Yeah, not being able to see is a big problem for me on that fight. And many others, too. Shame you can't move the camera when locked on.


Time it based on the audio cues. When you hear the crystal rain forming count down from 3, ymmv based on how fast/slow you count.

Crystal, count, spin. I should be able to do that just from my recordings. Thanks, maybe I'll be able to record a victory after all.
On a related note, should I post the boosted Crys Draal I got?