How should multiclass weapons be handled?

[isCasted]

Everyone knows that subclassing system in PSO2 was supposed to hybridize gameplay, but in the end it became less about mixing class abilities and more about multipliers. Main thing that stands in the way of actual hybriding is requirement to have a multiclass weapon of your subclass. While at the beginningg multiclass weapons weren't that common, lately SEGA puts more and more different multiclass weapons for specific hybrids. While it's much better than before, there still can be problems with certain class combos. Here are my thoughts on how weapon system should work (a little wall of text following):

Melee

Hunter's weapons for Fighter can sometimes be improtant. Sometimes you want to hit hard when you are sure you don't need to be quick, so Swords and Partizans for Fighter should be available at any level. While wielding 8*s in VH was fine, in SH we don't have good available option (read: not 11-12*). I also want to mention that there's only 1 11* Partizan and it's outclassed.
Fighter's weapons for Hunter should be rare but available at the endgame due to "pro mode" feel, because you get quickness of Fighter without losing defensive capabilites of Hunter. Right now [S]we can have there are Kamui, Xerc and God Hand, which is quite OK.

Melee/Tech

Since Quarry release we have Amun series, which shows that SEGA knows that Fo/Fi is a thing. There are Rod and Talis for Fighter in SH too, so we know that it's supported. But they seemingly don't understand why it's a thing and why Hu/Fo is not... Luckily they switched attention from Hu/Fo to Hu/Te now (Traitor weapon series), but I don't see any love to Fi/Te. Wands that are equippable by Fighter is a must, but currently our best options are Rappy 8* and outdated XQ drop. Te/Fi right now can use Marie Nails daggers, but don't expect great damage output. Knuckles would be a much better option because of bigger natural S-ATK. Anyway, Fighter doesn't even need Rods or Talis - Wand would be ok even for Fi/Fo, there's no need in strong teching option, and Wand still lets keeping accent on melee.

Ranged

Sometimes as Gu/Ra I'd want to use Launcher. It's not essential, but some people might want to use those, so why not?
Multiclass TMGs shouldn't be a thing unless they are weak (see: Lambda Radeigle, H10 Missouri T). I don't know why would you need those in endgame either - Hu and Ra are used as subs for Gunner and are not effective vise versa, so having 11* like Guld Milla kinda doesn't make much sense. Many people may see Ra/Gu as Gu/Ra with extended weapon choice... Launcher? Well, your main weapon still would be TMGs, so for rare cases when you'd want to use Launcher you'd better have a multiclass one, preferably not as shitty as Flame Visit. And if you want to play Ra/Gu for lifesteal latent of Guld Milla... I'd rather do 2x damage as Ra/Hu than have a lifesteal myself.

Ranged/Melee

Rifle for Hunter? Launcher for Hunter? Yeah, there are... And there should be, because everyone knows that Hunter needs more safe options that its default weapons.
TMGs for Hunter? Gu/Hu is super strong, so you should suffer in order to get that strenght.

Ranged/Tech

Rifles for Techer are a must, because Ra/Te is pure support, lack of good Rifle to keep WB on makes Te/Ra a shitty support.
Gu/Te doesn't need a wand, but Te/Gu needs TMGs. Yeah, there are TMGs with T-ATK for Techer, but surprisingly those TMGs also have Zero Effort latent, which makes them so wanted you can't even joke about playing Te/Gu with them.

Tech

Even though I believe that Techer has to use wands, you don't have to. There is always some Rod for Techers and any Talis can be used too.
Wand for Force is pointless unless it has some important latent (like Elysion).

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I never mentioned Braver before, so I could put everything in one place.

1) Melee. Katana is a universal melee weapon, so classes that have multiple melee weapons don't need Katana. Katana was _specifically_ designed for Braver class to be adaptive, so having Katana for Hunter and Fighter breaks purpose of other weapons. There's also no point in having Hunter and Fighter weapons for Braver for the same reason. Maaaaybe we could have a Katana for Hunter if it's 13*. Katana can be OK for Ra/Br, but why would anyone want to play like that if...

2) Ranged. Bow was designed as a universal ranged weapon, so classes that have other ranged weapons... Yeah, I can't really say the same thing as I said about Katana, primarilly because Bow's PAs aren't as fluid and controllable. However, Ra/Br with a bow is just a stronger Br/Ra, but Braver is already strong enough. Yet again I think Bow for Ranger should be 13* too. For normal gameplay I'd rather say that it's Braver who needs fine Rifles. Also, Bow for Hunters and Fighters may be OK because it's exact purpose is being a ranged option for melee class.

3) Tech. Br/Te is a popular combo for some reason, so Wand for Braver would be good. And currently we have it. Having a Rod for Braver would be kinda pointless then. About Katanas and Bows for Force and Techer: why not? Braver has less natural S-ATK than Fighter and Katanas have more natural S-ATK than Fighter weapons, so Katana for Fo/Br would be more viable than Fighter weapon for Fo/Fi. It's important for those Katanas to have decent amount of T-ATK (not like Susanoguren) or else idea of hybriding breaks and Force Katanas lose gameplay value. Also Bows for Tech classes were a thing in PSU for a reason, so in this game tech Bows should be too. Right now we have a Bow for Force with great T-ATK but there isn't an alternative for Techer.
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I want to note that it shouldn't be possible to completely play one class as another one ignoring its primary weapons (unless we are talking about Hunter, but that's only until it's fixed). I am trying to imagine system for an actual hybriding.

Please leave your opinions and suggestions.

[Kondibon]

I think you ought to be taking extending into account for this. Sure extended weapons aren't top tier, but they're good enough to use. Personally I'm fine with weapons for your subclass being slightly weaker than your main class weapons most of the time, but I do wish there was more control. Those items that automatically add a class should be craftable, even if they end up being relatively expensive to make (needing 100 of a particular kind of PA fragment and/or having a high crafting cost in meseta for example).

Had you brought this up before extending came out or was announced, I would have said that I think each rarity should have a set of weapons, tiers and all, specifically meant to be allclass. However, with extending out I don't see anything like that happening.

[Zorafim]

Every weapon should be usable by every class. Nothing else makes sense.

[Kondibon]

Every weapon should be usable by every class. Nothing else makes sense.I wouldn't go that far. I do like there to be a difference between playing say, FI/FO and FO/FI besides almost marginal stat shifts.

EDIT: On that note, I also think the stat differences between maining and subbing a class should be more defined. Like each class getting different percents of each stat from their subclass instead of a flat 20%, but that's not what this topic is about. x:

[gigawuts]

The difference between main/sub order should lie in base stats. Variances in atk, def, and hp.

You should be able to equip every weapon your main and sub can equip. Allclass daggers would still be required for dashing as a gu/hu for instance I guess.

[Horo The Wise Wolf]

You should be able to equip every weapon your main and sub can equip.

Oh god this. I've said this for so long.

[UnLucky]

The difference between main/sub order should lie in base stats. Variances in atk, def, and hp.

You should be able to equip every weapon your main and sub can equip. Allclass daggers would still be required for dashing as a gu/hu for instance I guess.
This.

"All-class" weapons could grant PA/tech use even without the correct main/sub

[gigawuts]

This.

"All-class" weapons could grant PA/tech use even without the correct main/sub

I really would like to see some multiclass weapons enable PAs.

Like the waterguns could enable infinity fire regardless of your main/sub, or the nishikis could enable orchestra.

Use that and unique latents to replace the existing multi/allclass system as being the way weapons are different. More stuff like stun on JA or conserving traps.

[Ratazana]

So the dude who designed the stuff for the new deluxe package told sakai he would like those weapons to be viable to multiclass. Sakai's answer? Give those weapons latents that convert a % of main dmg to another dmg type.

[UnLucky]

Does anyone know which damage type, and how much? Cause if the bow has T-Atk on it with bonus Tech damage latent, it could be better than the Vibras bow. But probably not, since that's a 10* with a lot of T-Atk.

But if it had Striking, or the katana had Ranged damage, uh, that'd be pretty worthless for main classing let alone multiclass. May as well put Kamikaze Arrow latent instead of bonus Striking damage since that'd all it'd be good for.

What else could be done?

[Ratazana]

The latent itself will give another dmg type.

[gigawuts]

As in fire damage on an ice weapon?

I was wondering when they'd add dual element damage.

[Ratazana]

Like %of melee to ranged. The weapons are crap and need customization. That would erase multidmg so they went with special latents.

[GoldenFalcon]

Like %of melee to ranged. The weapons are crap and need customization. That would erase multidmg so they went with special latents.

Like a Wand Reactor latent

okay

but that only allows for subpar photon blast instead of shit photon blast S:

Unless they give T-Atk, which was said

[Ratazana]

http://i.imgur.com/6w7UsC2.jpg

The second latent probably (for claw)

[UnLucky]

The latent itself will give another dmg type.
So again, what and how much?

It would give a percentage of your (weapon's) S-Atk as T-Atk or something? Unless it turns out to be 100%, that's garbage.

If the katana gives R-Atk, that's worthless. If the bow gives S-Atk, that's worthless. If the katana multiplies Ranged damage, that's worthless. If the bow multiplies Striking damage, that can be useful for certain PAs, but probably not as much as a straight up damage latent.

What would be really interesting is if a normally Striking weapon dealt Ranged or Tech damage instead and got the related damage multipliers, from skill trees and enemy weaknesses both. So like a katana got headshots and ZRA, or a fire element bow would get Flame Mastery and Tech Charge Advance.

[Zorafim]

It sounds like the weapon will use a type other than what it normally does. So the daggers would do tech damage, for instance, meaning someone stacking tatk would still do decent damage with them, because the daggers attack with both tatk and satk.

That seems like an interesting solution. Of course, it just shows how nonsensical the current stat system is that we have to resort to that.

[GoldenFalcon]

No, Ratazana is right. In the best case, it will have 100% ratio of weapon S-atk to T-atk (so like, the daggers when extended would have 600 S-atk AND 600 T-atk)

Hopefully they all get that latent

[UnLucky]

If it's like the Strength Crystal latent, which boosts "Wand Reactor" by 10% at lv3, that's at best around +100 Atk if you're completely specced in the "hybrid" stat that fits the latent, and assuming it goes off of base+units instead of the weapon (and if it was the weapon, that'd be a whopping 0).

A 5% damage latent that accounts for all sources of stats would also be the equivalent of +100 Atk on a pure build.

Yet in the first scenario, since you would not be specced in the primary Atk stat, your base+affixes would obviously not be as high as a pure build. Possibly missing 200-400 Atk, so the latent doesn't even put a dent into that.

However, using the exact same hybrid character build with a lower main stat, that 5% damage latent would lose an additional 10-20 Atk. So I guess, uh, score one for hybrids?

[Ratazana]

Who are you arguing to?

No one said it was going to be good. It illustrates how ridiculous the situation is. As far as they are concerned, that's a "hybrid" weapon. The latent thing to get around customization was ridiculous, save level as srank weapons having no attributes in pso.

[UnLucky]

I'm theorycrafting what the base level it would have to be to not be shit

[Sanguine2009]

assuming the have to be extended to be viable the daggers would have 661 at +10 the current standard for t att on 10*s is somewhere around 1000 give or take(for a rod) right? so it would have to be about a 150% s att > t att multiplier for it to be even passable in sh

i greatly prefer the idea of it deal a different damage type.... oh god can you imagine a talis rod or even wand thats techs dealt striking or ranged damage? /hu for everyone!