Pitfalls of Pure T-ATK?

[VKhaun]

For my second character I want to do a super casual Force / Techer. Probably swapping to Techer ASAP to go get PP Restraint and Elemental Weak Hit.

I am NOT looking for a guide or crazy build for super high DPS. I'm doing enough reading and laboring over my main. I'm just looking for a quick idiot check on doing the T-ATK race female, both T-ATK classes, and a pure T-ATK mag.

Looks like base T-DEF gets high enough to use whatever armor eventually.

Should I do any level of DEX on my mag for min damage, or stick to pure T-ATK?

Anything I'm missing?

[Arksenth]

There's no problem with going full T-ATK these days, really. Some people advocate for putting something like 20-30 DEX on your mag to equip some of those rarer DEX-stat items and to even out your damage a little, but you won't see huge gains either way, so meh.

[Emp]

Tech users don't need Dex but a pure tatk mag ain't necessary either. Its only flat dmg atk and u will be able to equip all rods, wands and tails as do fo/te or te/fo. Unless ur ocean about stats, just feed the mag only tech stuff.

As te sub, I suggest only putting 3 points in pp convert while maxing elemental weak hit. Also max wind masteries, and max t def up. Maxing t def up will allow to eat Ranges thunder better.

[Arksenth]

=|

You... can't even max both wind masteries, elemental weak hit, t-def up and have 3 points in PP convert. That's not even possible with 75 SP. Even if you sacrifice Territory Burst and PP Restraint, both of which are teching mainstays.

I don't even understand why one would max T-DEF Up over all of the other perks that TE has anyway?

PP Convert has fallen out of favor since Sazan got its boosts, as you can't really effectively branch into both sides of the tree without some major sacrifices. Wind Masteries take priority now, and with PP efficiency craft recipes, you'd never even need to touch PP Convert anyway.

[Bellion]

Oh my god, maxing t-def just to tank an attack of Dark Ragne? TC, please don't do that.

Pure T-atk is fine, the only thing is you won't be able to equip Elysion as a female Newman without 7 S-atk on the mag as Te/Fo. Equipping Elysion as Fo/Te needs way too much S-atk, so you shouldn't bother with that at all.

[UnLucky]

Well if you wanted to use Elysion, you'd need a bit of S-Atk to equip it.

Green Duel Gaze would also be pretty useful for Sazan, which requires Dex.

If you just wanna do it the easy way, feed it tech weapons without caring to reduce Dex. Your mag will cap out earlier and you'll be able to equip every Rod/Talis.

[Gama]

Well if you wanted to use Elysion, you'd need a bit of S-Atk to equip it.

Green Duel Gaze would also be pretty useful for Sazan, which requires Dex.

If you just wanna do it the easy way, feed it tech weapons without caring to reduce Dex. Your mag will cap out earlier and you'll be able to equip every Rod/Talis.


Elysion? yes and LOADS OF CASH.

lvl2 is killing me.

[Arksenth]

Elysion? yes and LOADS OF CASH.

lvl2 is killing me.

._. It only cost me 18m to Lv. 3 +10 my Elysion, and that was with an incredibly crappy grind luck... That's not a lot of meseta at all, is it?

[UnLucky]

I think I spent 15m on mine, but I had +2 risk reducers in the bank.

That's pretty fair for what it is.

[Gama]

Well i'm poor lol.

and dishing out 3mil afer only spending 200 k to get it to 10 on lvl 1 bites lol.

[Bellion]

Less than 6m for +40, you guys have bad luck. :(

Anyway, TC, if you ever get Sazan lvl 16, maybe look into a wind build.

[Arksenth]

You're actually whining because you had the good fortune to +10 it once with 200k, and then the good fortune to +10 it AGAIN for only 3m?

Sigh, the nerve of poor people.

[Inazuma]

As a female newman TE/FO, the current best mag is 7 S-attack, 9 dex and the rest T-attack. However, things can easily change in the future as better items come out and level caps are raised.

If you can buy new mags as needed, that's good. If you are stuck with only one mag, you should be very careful about how you raise it. Not having the dex to equip Gren Duel Gaze (the current best talis, and also the best tradable casting weapon) sucks but not having the 7 striking attack to equip Elysion is a massive fucking deal.

There are some shitty Forces on this forum who don't know how to use Elysion so they don't think it's that good, but if you know what you are doing, you will understand that you MUST have Elysion as a Force. You will be able to kill enemies around three times as fast, give or take.

One of the reasons why people will give poor advice and say that Elysion is not that amazing, is because they don't re-build their entire character around taking advantage of it. For example, you don't want Force skills trees focusing on a single element. You should use a general damage tree, designed around uncharged techs (Sazan in particular).

If you can only have one skill tree for TE/FO, I suggest this:

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06fbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbIn 0000000lb000009b000000lb000008qBI2dsqngAIAhNHXgKfq n0000jnbIdHXfdsI2J2loi200009b000008

If you can get a second Tector tree, I suggest removing Element Weak Hit and adding PP Convert lv 3. Use this tree when you are doing a quest that doesn't have enemies weak to wind.

[Shadowth117]

As a female newman TE/FO, the current best mag is 7 S-attack, 9 dex and the rest T-attack. However, things can easily change in the future as better items come out and level caps are raised.

If you can buy new mags as needed, that's good. If you are stuck with only one mag, you should be very careful about how you raise it. Not having the dex to equip Gren Duel Gaze (the current best talis, and also the best tradable casting weapon) sucks but not having the 7 striking attack to equip Elysion is a massive fucking deal.

There are some shitty Forces on this forum who don't know how to use Elysion so they don't think it's that good, but if you know what you are doing, you will understand that you MUST have Elysion as a Force. You will be able to kill enemies around three times as fast, give or take.

One of the reasons why people will give poor advice and say that Elysion is not that amazing, is because they don't re-build their entire character around taking advantage of it. For example, you don't want Force skills trees focusing on a single element. You should use a general damage tree, designed around uncharged techs (Sazan in particular).

If you can only have one skill tree for TE/FO, I suggest this:

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06fbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbIn 0000000lb000009b000000lb000008qBI2dsqngAIAhNHXgKfq n0000jnbIdHXfdsI2J2loi200009b000008

If you can get a second Tector tree, I suggest removing Element Weak Hit and adding PP Convert lv 3. Use this tree when you are doing a quest that doesn't have enemies weak to wind.

You know, you'd be a lot more credible if you'd post even one video example of general play with this style. I've seen it and I realize it has its places. But not once have you gone out of your way to do this when preaching it to everyone as you do. And yet, apparently you were really willing for some reason to prove yourself to someone in a Super Hard mission at one point.

Shouldn't be that big a deal to record something, right?

[Gama]

You're actually whining because you had the good fortune to +10 it once with 200k, and then the good fortune to +10 it AGAIN for only 3m?

Sigh, the nerve of poor people.

grinded it to 10 the first time for around 2 mil and used the 100% on that grind, then unlocked lvl 1 and grinded it to 10 with +1s and 5%s till grind 9, then used a +2 and a 10% and got lucky.

optimistic i unlocked lvl 2, and started grinding with the same system but didnt get lucky this time...

now ill stack monney and +1s and 5%'s and keep trying to get it to a decent grind till i can use full protects or something.

[Shinamori]

Tech users don't need Dex but a pure tatk mag ain't necessary either. Its only flat dmg atk and u will be able to equip all rods, wands and tails as do fo/te or te/fo. Unless ur ocean about stats, just feed the mag only tech stuff.

As te sub, I suggest only putting 3 points in pp convert while maxing elemental weak hit. Also max wind masteries, and max t def up. Maxing t def up will allow to eat Ranges thunder better.

I personally am going for a full tech mag since on of my characters is a cast.

[Inazuma]

You know, you'd be a lot more credible if you'd post even one video example of general play with this style. I've seen it and I realize it has its places. But not once have you gone out of your way to do this when preaching it to everyone as you do. And yet, apparently you were really willing for some reason to prove yourself to someone in a Super Hard mission at one point.

Shouldn't be that big a deal to record something, right?

You don't have to believe me. I just think it's interesting how people could think Elysion is not fucking amazing.

I'm too lazy to post videos, sorry. However, anyone is welcome to contact me in-game and we can play together.

[milranduil]

If you're too lazy to prove your point, you have zero credibility. None. No one is saying Elysion is not amazing. We're just saying your build is NOT all-purpose nor should it be used as such.

[Shadowth117]

You don't have to believe me. I just think it's interesting how people could think Elysion is not fucking amazing.

I'm too lazy to post videos, sorry. However, anyone is welcome to contact me in-game and we can play together.

Lazy? I dunno man, I mean, you take the time type out these grandiose essays about it. Surely, in that time it takes you to do that you could have uploaded a video. You're just recording standard, usual Elysion gameplay like how you normally play, correct? So it shouldn't take all that much effort to just record some of that, let movie maker or something cook the vid, and tell youtube to download your vid.

[Arksenth]

are we doing the elysion thing again

really

i thought this settled it last time

http://i.imgur.com/fcsELcq.png

walkure elysion goddess k

[Shadowth117]

are we doing the elysion thing again

really

i thought this settled it last time

[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/fcsELcq.png[/spoiler-box]

walkure elysion goddess k

Well you're very welcome to post your gameplay too if you'd like Ark chan. ( ・ω・)b

[GoldenFalcon]

I saw a funny video of someone doing a mission in flying continents with Elysion, just doing JA Sazans for 6k (3 ticks of 2k) and managing his pp by doing PB -> Convert -> PB
The main reason it was funny was because he didn't know how to dodge Persona..

Elysion really is amazing, but I personally wouldn't use it because it feels tacky to use only one spell. I'll stick to my playstyle and judge nobody

[Aussei]

Midori, I have no idea why you bother trying on PSO-World. I wish I could get Elysion. >;O
If I could get gwappin' on PSO2 man....Pffft!
You guys talk about meseta like it falls from trees, you have to kill monsters to get it you know! Also, I had a DEX - T-ATK MAG at one point and it wasn't that bad. I did less damage than everyone else, but my damage was more stable rather than sporadic.(?) Instead of 600-2k+ it was more like 800-2k+.
Try different things and see how you feel about it. I don't think it's easy to find the build that is right for YOU and YOU specifically. In the end that's the most important part. And it's fun and interesting to try different suggestions. At least for me.

[Aussei]

I saw a funny video of someone doing a mission in flying continents with Elysion, just doing JA Sazans for 6k (3 ticks of 2k) and managing his pp by doing PB -> Convert -> PB
The main reason it was funny was because he didn't know how to dodge Persona..

Elysion really is amazing, but I personally wouldn't use it because it feels tacky to use only one spell. I'll stick to my playstyle and judge nobody

Oh what only one tech on it? That's weird. It looks dope though, cool to just have it I guess. lol I'd still fucking use it, fuck it. lol

[milranduil]

Dex does not matter as long as you aren't using crafted stuff. Which you shouldn't be...

Some of you people make out meseta to be this difficult to obtain thing that takes great effort. Sure, it takes some rng/luck in some cases, but it's not that hard to make. I'm not Arksenth with his ocean of meseta, but I still manage to make a decent amount from tacos, fodders, etc. Yes, it requires effort. No, it is not difficult.

[WildarmsRE5]

to be fair, meseta drops from trees. specifically, owner of that tree is clotho.

[milranduil]

^ i c wut u did thur :wacko:

[Aussei]

Hahaha, it gets tedious to do those TACOs. I just save up until I got enough to get what I desire. And leave the rare drops to fate. If I don't get it, oh well. He can keep his friggin' money tree! He sends me out to do his bidding like I'm his ho. ;(
I think my MAG with DEX was before the crafting system came out. I don't know. I just know that it wasn't a bad experience for me to have DEX on my MAG.

[Gama]

Hahaha, it gets tedious to do those TACOs. I just save up until I got enough to get what I desire. And leave the rare drops to fate. If I don't get it, oh well. He can keep his friggin' money tree! He sends me out to do his bidding like I'm his ho. ;(
I think my MAG with DEX was before the crafting system came out. I don't know. I just know that it wasn't a bad experience for me to have DEX on my MAG.

thats my issue. it gets old fast.

-----------------------------------------

anyway whenever i get the elysion to 10 on lvl 2, ill post what i think about it.

[Alma]

Currently for female newman, most optimal mag for tech class as some have stated on previous post:

7 Satk (for equiping *11 Elysion wand as Te/Fo at 65/65)
9 Dex (for equiping Green dual gaze talis at lv65)
159 Tatk (dumping the rest of the leftover point on Tatk stat)

[UnLucky]

If you can only have one skill tree for TE/FO, I suggest this:

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06fbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbIn 0000000lb000009b000000lb000008qBI2dsqngAIAhNHXgKfq n0000jnbIdHXfdsI2J2loi200009b000008

If you can get a second Tector tree, I suggest removing Element Weak Hit and adding PP Convert lv 3. Use this tree when you are doing a quest that doesn't have enemies weak to wind.
Why would you recommend a Force tree without Talis Tech Bonus and no Charge if it's their only one?

You don't even have PPC, so there's little point in subbing Force for Namegid. Sure there's PB and PPJ, but those aren't as reliable/spammable.

I'd suggest a pure Fire Force tree, with a pure T-Atk mag (or some Dex), and then go Fo/Fi and Te/Fi. You'll have all the good fire techs available for when you don't have an Elysion, and then if you do get one, Te/Fi can equip it naturally by 65/40. And both will be stronger than Fo/Te or Te/Fo.

Of course, that means you need to level a third class. But no sense ruining your Force tree before you even get an Elysion, if ever. Use one of the free skill resets for that. In the meantime, I'd recommend this Flame/Wind Fo/Te/Fi Build (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06uDbnIkIOIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkjcFI O7bIn0000000jebHoGBfGK7n0000ib000000lb0000084OIk2X cKjbnbnI2Ibbn0000j4OdqHXfdFI2cF4Q5fo00000ib000008) (Fo/Te, Fo/Fi, Te/Fi).

[Walkure]

Fo/Br newearl with SATK Up 1 maxed has exactly 500 SATK, and if you have a build based around weak stance you might as well unless you actually use bow builds.

Fo/Fi needs SATK Up as well, but it's something you don't really have to go out of your way to get sufficient amounts.

[UnLucky]

I wouldn't really use Elysion with Fo/Br or Fo/Fi, though, since you wouldn't have Wind Mastery (nor Dark Mastery). It'd be great with Sazonde spam, or Nabarta I suppose, but hardly general purpose.

Also you wouldn't get Weak Stance Charge, obviously, so that's only 43% damage. I'd take the positional requirement over enemy/area restrictions.

[xervah]

... is my build okay? coz of combination Lightning/Dark tech FO/TE

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06uDbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkjbK9 oIn0000000lb000009b000000lb0000084OI22SIkjcAcAcKIb 000064OIvI2idI2J2qxIk00000lb000008

i don't really have this Elysion... but my current rod is Saint Feather (got from Noire Draal on BB SH)

[VKhaun]

Well, that escalated quickly.jpg

Thanks for all the replies, but I think I'm getting a pretty consistent response that I'll be fine as a casual player with a generalist build.












As a female newman TE/FO, the current best mag is 7 S-attack, 9 dex and the rest T-attack. However, things can easily change in the future as better items come out and level caps are raised.

If you can buy new mags as needed, that's good. If you are stuck with only one mag, you should be very careful about how you raise it. Not having the dex to equip Gren Duel Gaze (the current best talis, and also the best tradable casting weapon) sucks but not having the 7 striking attack to equip Elysion is a massive fucking deal.

There are some shitty Forces on this forum who don't know how to use Elysion so they don't think it's that good, but if you know what you are doing, you will understand that you MUST have Elysion as a Force. You will be able to kill enemies around three times as fast, give or take.

One of the reasons why people will give poor advice and say that Elysion is not that amazing, is because they don't re-build their entire character around taking advantage of it. For example, you don't want Force skills trees focusing on a single element. You should use a general damage tree, designed around uncharged techs (Sazan in particular).

If you can only have one skill tree for TE/FO, I suggest this:

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06fbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbIn 0000000lb000009b000000lb000008qBI2dsqngAIAhNHXgKfq n0000jnbIdHXfdsI2J2loi200009b000008

If you can get a second Tector tree, I suggest removing Element Weak Hit and adding PP Convert lv 3. Use this tree when you are doing a quest that doesn't have enemies weak to wind.

I see you've taken some heat in the thread, so I wanted to say thanks for this.

This particular character won't be doing anything so specialized, but my main is a Cast and I wanted to do a highly specialized build on him to try and get something useful out of his low stats and non-T-ATK mag. I don't know if your build will work as well there or not, but I don't like Talismans and I wanted to do electric / normal JA anyway just because I like it. Finding out there's a T-ATK wand that boosts normal attacks is a really wonderful.

We'll see how it goes. Long time before he will need to make any decisions in Fo or Te. Probably make another thread about that.

[UnLucky]

... is my build okay? coz of combination Lightning/Dark tech FO/TE

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06uDbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkjbK9 oIn0000000lb000009b000000lb0000084OI22SIkjcAcAcKIb 000064OIvI2idI2J2qxIk00000lb000008

i don't really have this Elysion... but my current rod is Saint Feather (got from Noire Draal on BB SH)
Nah, you should get Talis Tech Bonus if you'll use one of those, and PP Convert at least to lv3 and Territory Burst at least to lv1. Drop Shifta Advance/Crit, they are bad.


I wanted to do electric / normal JA anyway just because I like it. Finding out there's a T-ATK wand that boosts normal attacks is a really wonderful.

We'll see how it goes. Long time before he will need to make any decisions in Fo or Te. Probably make another thread about that.
To the both of you, make sure to NOT use lightning techs around other people casting Zondeel. It removes the suction effect that is extremely useful for killing mobs, and they probably aren't running a pure Lightning build so the damage wouldn't be good.

Try your other element (from Techer Masteries) if the enemies aren't weak to lightning, and be mindful of other players.

[VKhaun]

Nah, you should get Talis Tech Bonus if you'll use one of those, and PP Convert at least to lv3 and Territory Burst at least to lv1. Drop Shifta Advance/Crit, they are bad.

To the both of you, make sure to NOT use lightning techs around other people casting Zondeel. It removes the suction effect that is extremely useful for killing mobs, and they probably aren't running a pure Lightning build so the damage wouldn't be good.

Try your other element (from Techer Masteries) if the enemies aren't weak to lightning, and be mindful of other players.

Copy. I'll google what that Tech looks like.

Anything else like that in the game in general?

[Sandmind]

Copy. I'll google what that Tech looks like.

Anything else like that in the game in general?

It look like a blue circle of energy that cover a large area.

Nothing else like that in the game. Sega probably originally wanted this tech to gather then activate to do lighting aoe damage. Which is fine in a few scenario, but players saw the potential in the gathering effect. We will probably/hopefully not see any other Tech/PA that can be affected by an another player, since Sega must still be getting an earfull from the playerbase.

[deahamlet]

It look like a blue circle of energy that cover a large area.

Nothing else like that in the game. Sega probably originally wanted this tech to gather then activate to do lighting aoe damage. Which is fine in a few scenario, but players saw the potential in the gathering effect. We will probably/hopefully not see any other Tech/PA that can be affected by an another player, since Sega must still be getting an earfull from the playerbase.

Honestly I stopped minding when people blow it up anymore... except in mining and PSE bursts... It really is much faster killing for the rest of the party to have one single point of decimation rather than scattered enemies. I still maintain that if I lay down the Zondeel it's my business what I do with it. I'm also smart enough not to Zondeel next to lightning weak enemies if I'm not the only force around. It will get blown up and no point getting worked up about it.

Sazan is also a great spell to gather, it's just shorter range. Zondeel + sazan are great ways to support your party in Mining Defense or during PSE burst. Zondeel is also a great setup to save you PP by using fire/wind/light/dark spells on all the gathered mobs. Elemental Weak Hit on techer tree will make a generalist tree more bearable.

[Bellion]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyErG8FPmvM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyErG8FPmvM[/SPOILER-BOX]

Well, TC, you can see how an unactivated Zondeel and an activated Zondeel looks like.
An unactivated Zondeel doesn't make much noise, while an activated one does. As already mentioned, it loses the suction effect and it is really useful.

Sazan is the wind that I'm just spamming quite a bit.

The dark spell is Namegid which is also worth using with Elysion regardless if you have a dark build or not as long as you have enough PP to sustain it for bosses.

Although, still not seeing what makes it the best like some do. I just think it's great but it'll never be the best everywhere. Maybe someone can point out what I'm doing wrong. [SPOILER]Besides using Sazan twice on Org Blan's tail before I realized what I was doing.

[Emp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyErG8FPmvM[/spoiler-box]

Well, TC, you can see how an unactivated Zondeel and an activated Zondeel looks like.
An unactivated Zondeel doesn't make much noise, while an activated one does. As already mentioned, it loses the suction effect and it is really useful.

Sazan is the wind that I'm just spamming quite a bit.

The dark spell is Namegid which is also worth using with Elysion regardless if you have a dark build or not as long as you have enough PP to sustain it for bosses.

Although, still not seeing what makes it the best like some do. I just think it's great but it'll never be the best everywhere. Maybe someone can point out what I'm doing wrong. [spoiler]Besides using Sazan twice on Org Blan's tail before I realized what I was doing.

I enjoyed watching that. Did you max Uncharged tech skill? Whats your class/sub and builds?

[Bellion]

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rDbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkIhfd m9bIn0000000lb000009b000000lb000008GOqSdsqngAIAbnH NgKfqn0000j4OIdHXfdsI2bF4QHNIn00000ib000008

[Emp]

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rDbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkIhfd m9bIn0000000lb000009b000000lb000008GOqSdsqngAIAbnH NgKfqn0000j4OIdHXfdsI2bF4QHNIn00000ib000008

Damn. Gonna need to buy more trees. Besides elysions boost, T- ATK high up helps alot? I figured it didnt even at 5sp and its flat dmg o.o

EDIT: Does this work as FO/TE too? or is it less dmg? or not enough equip stat for Elysion?

[Bellion]

For me, an extra 120 T-atk is roughly an extra 7% damage overall. With how the damage formula works static gains vary.

Can't equip Elysion without like 51 S-atk on mag as Fo/Te.

[gigawuts]

TATK High Up is one of the few places where a static stat gain can be worth it, if you happened to be headed that way or have no other choices (well, then it's by definition worth it, if that tree won't be used for anything else).

It's nice for an ice tree, and it's nice for an elysion user.

Also worth noting is that the higher the enemy's def, the more worth it it becomes - not necessarily by leaps and bounds, but if you're the kind of person that will buy another tree for a few percent that adding 150 tatk to 2200 tatk vs a light enemy with 500 def (8.8% more damage) compared to an enemy with 800 def (10.7% more damage), then that's something else to consider. Personally, I like things that hit bosses harder, but it varies between people and builds.

(I have no idea if those def values are what you'd see ingame, the only stat tables I've seen lack def & atk values and instead just have multipliers to damage types and elements).

edit:
Also, I meant to reply to the original topic at hand earlier...

A while back, with how the damage formula was thought to work, having some dex was the generally accepted thing to do. The apparently stabilized damage, plus accessibility to some more dex weapos, was nice. 20-30 was all you needed. Now that they've apparently (I haven't read it myself, but I've read peoples' translations of it) stated that non-extended rares actually completely ignore low dex and instead give you a specific minimum damage value that changes things. Someone with a guld milla can throw dex to the wind and go with a 175 ratk mag (like me!). Give me a crafted yas 9k though and my low dex will come out and bite me in the ass.

So, using crafted items = have dex
Using dex-requiring weapons = have a bit less dex
Using good rares = don't worry about it

edit2: That said, Sega loves to take what's ideal right now and turn everything on its head. You can expect dex to be a requirement for some things at some point in the future. Tomorrow? Next year? Who knows. That was the third reason to get a bit of dex - futureproofing yourself.

[Emp]

So not having a pure talk won't matter much in billions build? I'm not gonna want to invest that much time and resources into building a pure mag.

[Sp-24]

As giga said, pure T-ATK makes a difference if your enemy has high defense, but raising it gives diminishing results, especially when used against enemies with low defense. And you can probably guess how high SH enemies' defenses are if you can easily deal bajillions of damage without WB. Multipliers, on the other hand, suffer against highly armored opponents, which, thankfully, do not exist.

[gigawuts]

Oh, it matters. If you're using an elysion your dex shouldn't matter based on what was stated about the damage formula in sakai's blog.

Basically, as I understood it, here's how it works:
Your dex is used to determine your minimum damage vs. an enemy. Let's say that this is 80% of your damage.
Your weapon, an Elysion, has a minimum minimum damage value - let's say 90% (I dunno what it actually is, but the blog mentioned this was a common value for good weapons)
The elysion's minimum damage value is better than the minimium damage value determined by comparing dex values
Your new minimum damage value is 90%

However...
Let's say you have a whole ton of dex. Dex is coming out of your ears. Your minimum damage value vs. an enemy, based on dex, is 91%.
This surpasses the elysion's own minimum damage value of 90%
Your new minimum damage value is 91%
But having all of this dex means you have less tatk, so your maximum and minimum are lower than if you went straight tatk

I don't know 100% that this is how it works, but what I've seen most recently indicates this is how it all fits together.

[Punisher106]

You're actually whining because you had the good fortune to +10 it once with 200k, and then the good fortune to +10 it AGAIN for only 3m?

Sigh, the nerve of poor people.

Please. Kill yourself. Not everyone is in a team full of people that do TACOs. I wanna kick everyone in my team in the ass so they actually do TACOs. I'm sort of on the verge of leaving anyway, since it's really damn quiet.

[gigawuts]

Please. Kill yourself. Not everyone is in a team full of people that do TACOs. I wanna kick everyone in my team in the ass so they actually do TACOs. I'm sort of on the verge of leaving anyway, since it's really damn quiet.

I'm in a team with people who seem to have a phobia of doing TAs. With the exception of two, maybe three members out of like 9 or 10, on the rare occasion I've been able to convince them they are in fact not "bad" at doing them (seriously, how can you be bad at standing on a button?) they grumbled practically the whole time.

Yet I get in 2 runs most days. You see, there's this thing called a friends list...

[Arksenth]

I just go with JP random parties that say TA 5. They're pretty decent most of the time anyway.

[Emp]

Oh, it matters. If you're using an elysion your dex shouldn't matter based on what was stated about the damage formula in sakai's blog.

Basically, as I understood it, here's how it works:
Your dex is used to determine your minimum damage vs. an enemy. Let's say that this is 80% of your damage.
Your weapon, an Elysion, has a minimum minimum damage value - let's say 90% (I dunno what it actually is, but the blog mentioned this was a common value for good weapons)
The elysion's minimum damage value is better than the minimium damage value determined by comparing dex values
Your new minimum damage value is 90%

However...
Let's say you have a whole ton of dex. Dex is coming out of your ears. Your minimum damage value vs. an enemy, based on dex, is 91%.
This surpasses the elysion's own minimum damage value of 90%
Your new minimum damage value is 91%
But having all of this dex means you have less tatk, so your maximum and minimum are lower than if you went straight tatk

I don't know 100% that this is how it works, but what I've seen most recently indicates this is how it all fits together.

I see. So not having that extra 63 T-atk from the mag(my mag is 105 T-atk) makes a big difference?

[gigawuts]

I would hardly call ~3% big.

[Emp]

I would hardly call ~3% big.

Ok. Now the only thing I need to do is fine Sazan 16. I wish they would increase the chances for red boxes to appear.

Is their any other good uncharged tech that you would recommend spamming until I can lvl 16 Sazan?

[Walkure]

Also, I had a DEX - T-ATK MAG at one point and it wasn't that bad. I did less damage than everyone else, but my damage was more stable rather than sporadic.(?) Instead of 600-2k+ it was more like 800-2k+. Sounds like you're using a non-rare/crafted weapon. If you were using a rare you'd be doing really close as your maximum damage.


However...
Let's say you have a whole ton of dex. Dex is coming out of your ears. Your minimum damage value vs. an enemy, based on dex, is 91%.
This surpasses the elysion's own minimum damage value of 90%
Your new minimum damage value is 91%
But having all of this dex means you have less tatk, so your maximum and minimum are lower than if you went straight tatk

I don't know 100% that this is how it works, but what I've seen most recently indicates this is how it all fits together.Minimum damage is capped at effectively using 90% of your weapon's attack value. What the rare weapon bonus does is put you at the cap without any DEX investment.

For an Elysion, adding on DEX won't actually improve damage in any way.


I would hardly call ~3% big.
Anything less than ~4-6% will have minimums lower than maximum of the previous setup. So you're likely to see the same number, say, 4000, even after improving damage by that amount. On top of that, you probably won't see a noticeable decrease in # of attacks needed to kill/break something without a much, much higher improvement.

[gigawuts]

Sounds like you're using a non-rare/crafted weapon. If you were using a rare you'd be doing really close as your maximum damage.

Minimum damage is capped at effectively using 90% of your weapon's attack value. What the rare weapon bonus does is put you at the cap without any DEX investment.

For an Elysion, adding on DEX won't actually improve damage in any way.

I don't know if you've tested it or not, but most things I read say that the minimum damage cap is 95%, leaving room for improvement over the rare weapon minimum damage value.

[Emp]

Ok. Now the only thing I need to do is fine Sazan 16. I wish they would increase the chances for red boxes to appear.

Is their any other good uncharged tech that you would recommend spamming until I can lvl 16 Sazan?

bump..

[gigawuts]

Namegid and sazonde are good at all levels.

[FacelessRed]

So at the end of the day, nobody really knows how valuable dex is. Well I am using a crafted fist for my hunter, and compared to his regular attack as a fighter with normal 10* fists he does twice as much. ;S same s-atk value.

Also that % by the PA attack is how much extra damage you get from the skill (100% of your dex is added to the attack value etc) (Correct me if I'm wrong this is just an assumption)

[Fleur]

Also that % by the PA attack is how much extra damage you get from the skill (100% of your dex is added to the attack value etc)

No it's not. The dex% on PAs is for damage variance. It's really simple to test that dex doesn't increase max damage. A shunka with 0 s.atk on mag will crit for the amount as a shunka with a 175 dex mag.

[UnLucky]

I don't know if you've tested it or not, but most things I read say that the minimum damage cap is 95%, leaving room for improvement over the rare weapon minimum damage value.
I thought the way it worked was that Dex added onto the weapon minimum, so that if you had 90% with a rare weapon with 0 Dex, but 94% after Dex, a crafted/red/non-rare that with an innate minimum of 80% would end up being 84%

That's what I gathered from a video testing out the variance.

If it's the way you explained it, then that player would have 94% as their absolute minimum no matter what weapon they used, and that was certainly not the case.

[GoldenFalcon]

Like how in PSU, damage variance was a hidden stat on each weapon?

I don't know personally, but a site I visited said that rares don't have a minimum damage percent, but that they give 25% of their attack value as dex, which is equivalent to a 50% minimum damage amount (this is because 1 point of dex = 2 points of minimum damage)

I wish we could figure out who is right

[Macman]

Please. Kill yourself. Not everyone is in a team full of people that do TACOs. I wanna kick everyone in my team in the ass so they actually do TACOs. I'm sort of on the verge of leaving anyway, since it's really damn quiet.
Like I ever see you play in the first place.

[Walkure]

I don't know if you've tested it or not, but most things I read say that the minimum damage cap is 95%, leaving room for improvement over the rare weapon minimum damage value.
That'd be easy to disprove; take a low level target, find critical (maximum) and minimum damage. If DEX has a higher cap than using 90% of your weapon's attack, then it should show at an extreme level advantage.

Maximum Damage:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/euUyxzU.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Minimum Damage:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/tZiunc2.png[/spoiler-box]

Setup, shitty build, and results of basic calculations:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/LFctjac.png
I'm on a FO tree that tried to accommodate for both Sazonde and Nafoie spam, using my melee units/mag because who gives a fuck.

The damage difference is roughly equivalent to losing 107 TATK, which is 10% of the rod's weapon attack. Hence, minimum damage is still at 90% of weapon's attack.

As you can see, the rod has no unlocked potential so weather isn't a factor.
http://i.imgur.com/8UINQAW.png
[/spoiler-box]



I don't know personally, but a site I visited said that rares don't have a minimum damage percent, but that they give 25% of their attack value as dex, which is equivalent to a 50% minimum damage amount (this is because 1 point of dex = 2 points of minimum damage)
I tried quantifying that in another thread, (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217034) but was unable to do so since minimum damage was capped at 90% of weapon attack when I switched to a rare, despite having nowhere near the supposed amount needed.

Speaking of that thread, I forgot to post that file ^^;. Should update that, especially post-devBlog where Sakai stated that rare weapons automatically have 90%*W for minimum damage.

[GoldenFalcon]

I tried quantifying that in another thread, (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217034) but was unable to do so since minimum damage was capped at set to 90% of weapon attack when I switched to a rare, despite having nowhere near the supposed amount needed.

Speaking of that thread, I forgot to post that file ^^;. Should update that, especially post-devBlog where Sakai stated that rare weapons automatically have 90%*W for minimum damage.

So rares literally do ignore dex?

Well, that's dumb

(the ftfy is because wrong usage of word)

[gigawuts]

That'd be easy to disprove; take a low level target, find critical (maximum) and minimum damage. If DEX has a higher cap than using 90% of your weapon's attack, then it should show at an extreme level advantage.

Maximum Damage:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/euUyxzU.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Minimum Damage:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/tZiunc2.png[/spoiler-box]

Setup, shitty build, and results of basic calculations:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/LFctjac.png
I'm on a FO tree that tried to accommodate for both Sazonde and Nafoie spam, using my melee units/mag because who gives a fuck.

The damage difference is roughly equivalent to losing 107 TATK, which is 10% of the rod's weapon attack. Hence, minimum damage is still at 90% of weapon's attack.

As you can see, the rod has no unlocked potential so weather isn't a factor.
http://i.imgur.com/8UINQAW.png
[/spoiler-box]



I tried quantifying that in another thread, (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217034) but was unable to do so since minimum damage was capped at 90% of weapon attack when I switched to a rare, despite having nowhere near the supposed amount needed.

Speaking of that thread, I forgot to post that file ^^;. Should update that, especially post-devBlog where Sakai stated that rare weapons automatically have 90%*W for minimum damage.

Wait, it seems I've misunderstood this - capped at 90% of the weapon's attack. That would fill in a few gaps. This looks pretty solid to me, thanks for looking into it.

And don't sweat it about the log, the whole reason I wanted it has kind of fallen apart with the way this works.

[UnLucky]

Wait, it seems I've misunderstood this - capped at 90% of the weapon's attack. That would fill in a few gaps. This looks pretty solid to me, thanks for looking into it.

And don't sweat it about the log, the whole reason I wanted it has kind of fallen apart with the way this works.
Wait wait wait, if your minimum damage is 90% of your weapon's Atk, then it'd be super low like 1296.

Does base Atk + affixes count towards minimum damage as well as max, then?

[Walkure]

Yes; the main difference between the minimum damage and maximum damage formula is that weapon attack isn't included in the attack. To compensate , you effectively get SATK from your weapon back at twice the difference between your DEX and your target's DEX. This compensation caps at 90%.

When/if I update my weapon thread I'ma basically account for minimum damage and average damage as options, that, when enabled, slash off 5-10% off weapon attack. Bam, average damage for rare, non-crafted weapons.

And yeah, "sets minimum to 90%*W" is probably a better term.

[UnLucky]

Ok, so if I understand it correctly, maximum damage is:

[Total Atk - Target Def]*0.2*M

Minimum damage is:

[(Total Atk - Weapon Atk) - Target Def + 2*min[(Total Dex - Target Dex), (0.9*Weapon Atk)]]*0.2*M

But where does the hidden minimum adjustment thing happen for rare weapons? Before or after Dex 'compensation'?

[Walkure]

Ok, so if I understand it correctly, maximum damage is:

[Total Atk - Target Def]*0.2*M

Minimum damage is:

[(Total Atk - Weapon Atk) - Target Def + 2*min[(Total Dex - Target Dex), (0.9*Weapon Atk)]]*0.2*M

But where does the hidden minimum adjustment thing happen for rare weapons? Before or after Dex 'compensation'?
The hidden minimum adjustment overrides the DEX compensation.

So not DEX-capped nor using a Rare Weapon:
Minimum Damage=[(Total Atk - Weapon Atk) - Target Def + 2*min[(Total Dex - Target Dex)]]*0.2*M

Otherwise:
Minimum Damage=[(Total Atk - 10%*Weapon Atk) - Target Def]]*0.2*M

Or, comprehensively:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/boH037C.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

[WildarmsRE5]

The hidden minimum adjustment overrides the DEX compensation.

So not DEX-capped nor using a Rare Weapon:
Minimum Damage=[(Total Atk - Weapon Atk) - Target Def + 2*min[(Total Dex - Target Dex)]]*0.2*M

Otherwise:
Minimum Damage=[(Total Atk - 10%*Weapon Atk) - Target Def]]*0.2*M

Or, comprehensively:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/boH037C.png[/SPOILER-BOX]can I have the "Legend" on that formula?
like what does A, M, Sat, etc stands for?

[Walkure]

can I have the "Legend" on that formula?
like what does A, M, Sat, etc stands for?
A: Total attack
D: Mob Defense
W: Weapon Attack, ignoring affixes
M: Modifiers (product of all modifiers applicable.
Sat: Saturation, cap, max, etc.

[WildarmsRE5]

A: Total attack
D: Mob Defense
W: Weapon Attack, ignoring affixes
M: Modifiers (product of all modifiers applicable.
Sat: Saturation, cap, max, etc.thanks, much better now.

[UnLucky]

The hidden minimum adjustment overrides the DEX compensation.
Damn, I was hoping the weapon minimum would be the floor for Dex to work off of.

Simplified: Min( ΔDex or 90% or Rare mod )

So pretty much Dex is worthless trash unless your weapon is also worthless trash.

Like if a weapon has no hidden "dex bonus" at all, you'd have a minimum damage range from 0-40% of your weapon (with 0-400 ΔDex, likely achievable naturally at 65/65), and I think crafted weapons would be around 60-70% from what I've seen.

And my stance on crit skills stands, even in the worst case scenario where your Dex is less than or equal to the target's Dex so your minimum damage is roughly 50% of your max (your weapon has as much Atk as all other sources), they are worse for increasing average damage than multipliers.

[WildarmsRE5]

wait a minute. . .

*looks at thread title*

so. . . anyone knows how many pages have we've been off topic now?

[milranduil]

It's more of a tangent point, but it does have relevance. It stemmed, iirc (too lazy to check), from DEX vs T-ATK on mag which was part of the initial discussion.

[Kikikiki]

Probably /only/ the TACO bit.

Their DEX discussion still revolves around T-ATK. At least from the whacking in the pictures I see.

[Atmius]

wait a minute. . .

*looks at thread title*

so. . . anyone knows how many pages have we've been off topic now?

Not even one.

[WildarmsRE5]

more like "Damage Discussion with Dex" now. that not really explains the Pitfalls of T-ATK but ATK with crafted weapons.

still seeds of knowledge though.

[gigawuts]

more like "Damage Discussion with Dex" now. that not really explains the Pitfalls of T-ATK but ATK with crafted weapons.

still seeds of knowledge though.

It's still the topic.

Most people don't really understand how the damage formula works - myself included until Walkure clarified it. Until that point many of us would have said that a pitfall of pure ATK would have included a wide damage spread, but now we know this is clearly not the case.

The only real pitfalls of a pure tatk build in the current state of the game is an inability to equip dex items, and that you'll suck when using crafted weapons. That's it.

Later on, if they add Techer Mag (which they have mentioned in the past), and if it requires dex, that may become a powerful skill. They've also mentioned adding Class Mag skills for each class, with what looks like icons for more classes already in the files, so Dex may become a vital stat for players without many mags.

[Gama]

i have 30 dex on my t atk mag.

i dont regret it.

[Aussei]

So this is what happens when a game has no PvP or competitive system.... The only way to compete in this game is trying to figure out formulas and what people think is the most powerful build. Haha. I just had a lightbulb go off in my head. Now I understand why threads like this blow up. ;O

Or you can compete to look the prettiest too...

Am I the only one who thinks this? Also after reading I think I am going to add DEX into my T-ATK MAG again. I miss it.

[Z-0]

Probably not, because the game does have a form of competitive system, people just choose not to partake in it because it's not direct and that's apparently not good enough.

[Arksenth]

I always look the prettiest!

Because I have the meseta to buy all of the accessories!

Poor people can't beat me no matter how they try!

[Aussei]

I always look the prettiest!

Because I have the meseta to buy all of the accessories!

Poor people can't beat me no matter how they try!

I mean... I guess.... If that's how you feel lol

[gigawuts]

So this is what happens when a game has no PvP or competitive system.... The only way to compete in this game is trying to figure out formulas and what people think is the most powerful build. Haha. I just had a lightbulb go off in my head. Now I understand why threads like this blow up. ;O

Or you can compete to look the prettiest too...

Am I the only one who thinks this? Also after reading I think I am going to add DEX into my T-ATK MAG again. I miss it.

MFW people think this doesn't happen way way way more hardcore in PVP games.

[Aussei]

MFW people think this doesn't happen way way way more hardcore in PVP games.

mfw people read between the lines and make assumptions as to what I'm actually getting at. I'm talking about PSO2 not other games. Lol. I'm pretty sure this happens in other games. I never stated otherwise. @_@

[Walkure]

So this is what happens when a game has no PvP or competitive system.... The only way to compete in this game is trying to figure out formulas and what people think is the most powerful build. Haha. I just had a lightbulb go off in my head. Now I understand why threads like this blow up. ;O
It's not really competitive; it'd actually be nice if people would cooperate in finding out stats and mods ingame.


Or you can compete to look the prettiest too...Or compete in recording TA runs or boss runs, like in that thread.


Am I the only one who thinks this? Also after reading I think I am going to add DEX into my T-ATK MAG again. I miss it.It's your prerogative. Nobody's going to notice you have 30 points above any requirement invested in DEX, much like nobody would notice you have power/shoot/tech boost without directly observing your equipment.


MFW people think this doesn't happen way way way more hardcore in PVP games.
I'm honestly surprised there isn't much of an appetite for testing/mathing; even Monster Hunter community can go pretty in-depth and the game mechanics are much more obfuscated.

[gigawuts]

Most people who were interested in testing things left when PSU came out. It was abhorrent to most of us. Then after that many years, upon returning to PSO2 and finding it to be a generic F2P game, most wanted no part of it. I came to PSO2 with a half dozen friends, all super excited about the game, and was the only one left after just one month. Most people I know have similar stories.

Now the only people showing up are, well, look around.

[Walkure]

Sounds about right. My group of a dozen or so people has dwindled down to one person playing outside EQs. They come back in after some neat changes or new content, then slowly wash out over time.

Hell, I've been waiting on trying FFXIV for a while, and with it popping on sale on both Amazon and popping up on Steam, I'm giving it a shot over the weekend at least.

[Inazuma]

Sazan is the wind that I'm just spamming quite a bit.

The dark spell is Namegid which is also worth using with Elysion regardless if you have a dark build or not as long as you have enough PP to sustain it for bosses.

Although, still not seeing what makes it the best like some do. I just think it's great but it'll never be the best everywhere. Maybe someone can point out what I'm doing wrong. Besides using Sazan twice on Org Blan's tail before I realized what I was doing.

You are one of the better Forces on this forum, that's for sure. I do have a bit of advice for you though.

You could be faster at spamming Sazan if you jumped less, and didn't move while charging it as much. If there are enemies all around you, just stand still and spam Sazan very fast. If you want to move near enemies to use Zondeel, use a talis or just run to them normally. It's hard, if not impossible to JA Sazan if you are constantly jumping, right?

You use wand melee to JA into Sazan, when you should use Sazan from the start. Of course the first Sazan will be weaker than a JA Sazan, but you can start dealing damage sooner, and also it is faster than swinging your wand, so your JA Sazan comes sooner anyway. Sazan has a very low PP cost, so it's fine to use to JA.

You use wand melee to recover PP as well? You should quickly switch to a gunslash with the 30% faster PP regen latent, such as the Nero Parasol and use that instead. If you want to regen PP during your photon blast, it's fine to use a few charged Sazans instead.

You used Namegido on the Org Blan boss. You would have been better off using Sazan. Namegido is only better if the boss is weak to dark. If the boss is going after you and is aggressive enough to make you need to dodge, use Nabarta to give yourself mobility while still doing good damage.

Even if you have a skill tree with both dark masteries and PP convert maxed, and are boss rushing, Sazan still beats Namegido. As you already know, PP convert 10 is not fast enough to keep up with uncharged Namegido. Also, it only lasts for 30 seconds, so your DPS takes a massive hit if PP convert expires and the boss is still alive. If Namegido gets a craft recipe to reduce the PP cost enough so PP convert 10 can keep up with it, things could change.

Improved skill trees:

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06rDbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkIhfd m9bIn0000000lb000009b000000lb000008qBI2dsqngAIAhNH XgKfqn0000jqoIdHXfdsI2cF4Q5fo00000ib000008

Your skill trees could use a bit of work too. On your Force tree, instead of getting a tiny bit more tech attack from T-attack Up 2, max out PP Up 2 for 10 more PP. On your Tector tree, reduce PP Convert to 3 so you can max PP Restorate, and you should also have 1 SP in Extend Assist for double duration Shifta.

Of course you wouldn't be using these skill trees in every situation. You should also have a Force tree for Sazan + Nabarta. Remove PP Up 2, take away a few points from JA Advance and max both ice masteries.

For Tector you also want a tree with Element Weak Hit for the quests with enemies weak to wind. Remove PP Convert 3 so you can do that.

Good luck with your Force, Minerva.

[UnLucky]

What? No, don't use Sazan on Org Blan, it moves him.

I don't care how wtfomgOPnerfplx Elysion+Sazan might be versus anything else tech related, it's not worth messing up everyone else in the MPA.

Same with Caters, Rockbear, and Mizer.

[Walkure]

Sazan-blocking the entire MPA is almost as cool as zonde-blocking just the other FOs/TEs.

[Bellion]

Well, it's good that you pointed out my jumping habit. I don't think I've ever had one person point that out before, I know it's not something I should be doing. I blame OP Zonde period where you got a 10% damage boost for hitting enemies a certain height above them, and that included jumping.

JA'ing off Sazan, this I can agree with due to the low PP cost like you've stated.

I usually don't use the wand to recover PP and do use a gunslash for that purpose. I was probably too sleepy at the time to think correctly.

The thing about Namegid is that it doesn't move the boss and annoy other players in the MPA. Although, I was doing the most work on that Org Blan.
Nabarta consumes too much PP and quite a bit of bosses can't be side-stepped when they use certain attacks.

My skill trees are limited, so I have to make something that will do everything decently.

All classes played, but not enough time to learn how to play them as well as I'd like to.
I totally forgot about this post because of the EQ!

[UnLucky]

Jumping isn't a bad habit for pretty much every charged tech, since you have time to do that.

JAing uncharged techs back to back barely gives you any time to move if you're doing it right, so trying to jump either slows you down or you lose the JA when you touch the ground.

[Bellion]

Well, I could be moving forward or backwards while charging instead of jumping. It can be a bad habit depending on how you look at it.

It is a problem of mine.

[gigawuts]

Jumping is a good defensive habit when surrounded by adds, as it'll put you over many attacks (and reduce the chance of combo deaths from attacks that'll hit you in the air, but not if you've fallen - one hits, the next misses since you're on the ground)

For something you need to rapid fire JA like sazan the slow trip down can still be acceptable if your timing is good, it's just the trip up that is lost time.

Generally speaking, I'd say jumpcasting is about as bad of a habit as flushing the toilet. Yes, it's bad if someone is in the shower. Every other time it's better than forgetting.

[UnLucky]

Also I've noticed I don't whiff the first tick of S/D if I jump cast it. Not sure if it even does that anymore, but you'd often get only 3 ticks from a full cast for whatever reason (elevation bug?)

Zondeel is obvious, Foie can more easily graze things with a vantage, and of course you can hit enemy weakpoints like micdas and mammoths.

Not really sure if it really lets you move sooner as was the popular belief, since if touching the ground did cancel your animation, you'd lose the JA circle.

[gigawuts]

Jump mechanics are very finicky. If you time it just right you can grab your JA exactly as you land. Normally I'd just say you're falling during the animation, but this also works for launchers. You'd think they'd give something as central to the game's new design a bit more attention.

[Bellion]

Pretty sure that S/D bug is gone now. I've been noticing full durations while using it on Sanctum TA stand-on buttons.
I already know of the advantages of jumping, I just do it way too much.

[Inazuma]

The thing about Namegid is that it doesn't move the boss and annoy other players in the MPA. Although, I was doing the most work on that Org Blan.
Nabarta consumes too much PP and quite a bit of bosses can't be side-stepped when they use certain attacks.

I wanted to be sure before I responded to this so I just solo'd Org Blan and tried using Sazan on various body parts to check the movement.

If you use Sazan on his head, it does indeed move him quite a bit forward. I can see how this would cause problems for some party members.

Using Sazan on the tail moves him back by a lot as well. This could actually be really nice if you wanted to keep him away from you, similar to how you can keep Tranmizer away from you by using Sazan on the back weakpoint. But yeah, it moves him around a lot so that's no good when playing with Bravers and whatnot.

The top horns and both legs will also move Org Blan to the side, enough to cause problems, I imagine.

But there is one spot that might be OK. The spot that I usually attack, which is why I originally gave the advice to use Sazan. If you target his weak spot, the belly, it moves him forward slightly. It's noticeably less than the head. I don't use melee at all myself, so I'm not an expert on this, but it looks like it shouldn't cause problems for other players.

If using Sazan on the belly and moving Org Blan slightly is still a big deal, feel free to educate me. For now, I will continue to use Sazan on his belly and use Nabarta when he goes after me.

[Ratazana]

Elysion is the only way to extract fun from force's carcass but sazan goes against a unsaid rule of pso2: if something can't 1 shot stuff yet messes with people, don't do it.

[FacelessRed]

I wanted to be sure before I responded to this so I just solo'd Org Blan and tried using Sazan on various body parts to check the movement.

If you use Sazan on his head, it does indeed move him quite a bit forward. I can see how this would cause problems for some party members.

Using Sazan on the tail moves him back by a lot as well. This could actually be really nice if you wanted to keep him away from you, similar to how you can keep Tranmizer away from you by using Sazan on the back weakpoint. But yeah, it moves him around a lot so that's no good when playing with Bravers and whatnot.

The top horns and both legs will also move Org Blan to the side, enough to cause problems, I imagine.

But there is one spot that might be OK. The spot that I usually attack, which is why I originally gave the advice to use Sazan. If you target his weak spot, the belly, it moves him forward slightly. It's noticeably less than the head. I don't use melee at all myself, so I'm not an expert on this, but it looks like it shouldn't cause problems for other players.

If using Sazan on the belly and moving Org Blan slightly is still a big deal, feel free to educate me. For now, I will continue to use Sazan on his belly and use Nabarta when he goes after me.

I personally don't care so much about others in my MPA unless they're dead. I almost always pull aggro regardless of what I use anyway (I swear Ship01 has significantly weakened as a whole since bravers new PA, weak bullet has vanished and corpses are everywhere!). However I stopped Sazanning Org because trying to get his head moves the follow up shots away and stops hiitting the weak spot (head) dropping my damage output.

[FacelessRed]

No it's not. The dex% on PAs is for damage variance. It's really simple to test that dex doesn't increase max damage. A shunka with 0 s.atk on mag will crit for the amount as a shunka with a 175 dex mag.

cool, can I see this test result?
Didn't mean to double post. I'm testing it n ow since I have a 0 satk mag with some dex.

430 base dex and 475 with mag

Average damage with no stances, no PSE no mag on +100% dex modified stun concido is 1099.15 damage

with a mag adding +45 dex

Average damage is 1107.5 with no PSE and 100% dex modified stun.

the increase in damage is a little over 8 damage.

Notable differences in having a bit more dex is I critical hit twice as opposed to 0 without the added dex, if I had more swings then I'm sure this test would be a bit more significant. But either its absolute confirmation dex adds 0 damage or dex adds an extremely negligable amount. the problem though is that my dex mag is only +45 dex out of a total of 430 base that isn't really that much extra on the whole so the slight damage variant is hard to judge. But I'm glad I took the time to test this myself.

[UnLucky]

Dex doesn't influence crit rate

[gigawuts]

Dex doesn't influence crit rate

Unfortunately.

What an annoying stat ;/

First it's completely ignored if you're using an un-crafted rare (excluding red weapons), then even if it IS counted it's completely ignored when calculating crits.

[Coatl]

If using Sazan on the belly and moving Org Blan slightly is still a big deal, feel free to educate me. For now, I will continue to use Sazan on his belly and use Nabarta when he goes after me.

I'll have to try this. I really hate resorting to namegid on bosses like Org blan or Chrome due to sazan either moving them annoyingly, and sometimes it just plain doesn't hit the same spot all 3 times.

[UnLucky]

His face will usually have a WB though, so I'd still be using Namegid. That's why I've got the dual element thing going on.

[VKhaun]

OP Here.

Thanks everyone. Still spectating/lurking and checking in every now and again.

Pages 7 and 8 blew my mind, but left me with a question, because the discussions tarted from pure ATK and went from there... Lets say you did the opposite and went pure Dex. There's no reason then to AVOID rare weapons right?

Without crafting them you're wasting your Dex because no adjustment is made to utilize that stat (if I'm following this right...) but if you DO craft them, the rares still gain damage overall from being crafted and your high dex prevents the damage range from getting too wild?

Or do the rare weapons just not gain enough benefit from crafting to be worth using instead of non-rare crafted gear, even in the hands of a Dex stacked character?

At what * count is the break point there? Roughly?










(Doing the pure T-ATK character, but also trying to plan a completionist character. I'm liking the comment earlier about them possibly adding more Class Mag abilities that give you stats based on the Mag's Dex, and I was originally drawn to hybrid Braver with Braver Mag anyway.)

[UnLucky]

Well, if you already did have a lot a lot of Dex such that your minimum is just the same as a rare weapon, then you should still use a strong 10*

For example, a fully crafted rod will have 995 T-Atk at +10 no matter what rarity or T-Atk it used to have. There are eleven 10* rods with higher T-Atk than that.

The only way it would be better to use a crafted weapon, even if you have so much Dex there is essentially no penalty, is if the latent is strong enough to surpass the other options. Like an 8-10% damage bonus that will always apply to everything you do.

[VKhaun]

Well, if you already did have a lot a lot of Dex such that your minimum is just the same as a rare weapon, then you should still use a strong 10*

For example, a fully crafted rod will have 995 T-Atk at +10 no matter what rarity or T-Atk it used to have. There are eleven 10* rods with higher T-Atk than that.

The only way it would be better to use a crafted weapon, even if you have so much Dex there is essentially no penalty, is if the latent is strong enough to surpass the other options. Like an 8-10% damage bonus that will always apply to everything you do.

Is there a google doc or something where I can find the ATK values of all weapons at different craft levels?

[Sandmind]

Is there a google doc or something where I can find the ATK values of all weapons at different craft levels?

Look at the visiophone for the craft recipe and check the value for your weapon type. Use the base number showed there and multiply with the grinding bonus you find here: cirnopedia (http://pso2.cirnopedia.info/enhance_1.php#weapon).

[UnLucky]

The JP wiki (http://pso2.swiki.jp/) lists the crafted weapons along with everything else so they're easily comparable.

This Bumped article (http://bumped.org/psublog/pso2-crafting-system-mini-guide/) has a chart with all the base stats for every crafted weapon type. Just multiply the 10* value by 1.9x (or the 1-3* by 1.5x) and you have the Atk at +10.

[Walkure]

The DEX required to cap varies depending on the weapon's attack. You'll need the defenders DEX plus 45% of the weapon's attack in order to cap minimum damage on a crafted/non-rare weapon. Rockbear SH has about 303 DEX, so at the minimum (with Tdaggers and ~700 weapon attack), you're going to need 620ish DEX to cap on a lot of things. With other weapons getting up to 1100 weapon attack or so, you'll need closer to 800 DEX.

Most sources of adding DEX (mag, affixes outside of very high number of slots, etc) have you choose between ATK and DEX. And, for average damage, they're roughly the same (DEX contributes twice as much as ATK for minimum damage, but doesn't affect maximum damage). Criticals and shifta (for mag) will make ATK slightly better for average damage, but on the other hand minimum damage is what actually matters for securing kills in a certain number of PAs/hits.

As far as weapons performing when crafted, the only ones I really see working are surfboard swords for the Ride Slasher potential, and Braver mag builds making pseudo-Susanos on the cheap. A crafted multiclass MKB (Ebony Nyobo) or Umbla Rod would also be good, just not for damage reasons.

[VKhaun]

The JP wiki (http://pso2.swiki.jp/) lists the crafted weapons along with everything else so they're easily comparable.

This Bumped article (http://bumped.org/psublog/pso2-crafting-system-mini-guide/) has a chart with all the base stats for every crafted weapon type. Just multiply the 10* value by 1.9x (or the 1-3* by 1.5x) and you have the Atk at +10.

Wow that doesn't seem like a huge difference. A pure DEX can use pretty much whatever they want just based on appearance and extra abilities, and they get better damage variance at lower levels with crap drops?

That doesn't seem so bad... o.o