Custom tech damage unaffected by class skills. Merit/Demerit effects to increase?

[TaigaUC]

New:
http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=3430

Lazy Google Translate:

Customize the performance of the technique in customized "speed", I am sure the problem that the value of the decimal point is not displayed.
With regard to this place, but we do support towards the correction.
We apologize that we have the inconvenience to everyone.


Old:

http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=3124

My translation:


Regarding Technic Customization's ability to customize "damage" , we have confirmed there is a bug where the effects of class skills etc. are not applied.

With regards to this, we are working towards a solution.
Once fixed, class skills will take effect alongside both merits and demerits, and will together increase effectiveness.

Our sincerest apologizies for screwing everyone upside-down.


The way it's worded leaves room for interpretation.
The question is exactly what "effectiveness" will be increased.
If it was simply that class skills weren't being factored in at all, such a difference should have been immediately noticeable
As such, most people are expecting this to be more of a nerf than a buff, depending on which customizations you have.

Detailed explanation from Unlucky:


Yeah, what I'm assuming it means is like this:

Original Tech: 300% Power
Crafted Recipe: +30% Power

That does NOT increase your tech to 390%, but rather 330% since it's additive. So it should be an overall 10% increase.

The bug meant it didn't even give that whole 10%, since your overall damage before crafting was maybe 800% Power including skills. With the craft it would only be 830% due to the bug. It should be 880%.

For the "good" +Power crafts you'd see a change from:

Nabarta
1357(uncrafted)
1457(bugged)
1624(fixed) for Nabarta

Namegid
17274(uncrafted)
17874(bugged)
18875(fixed

For the +AoE Namegid you'd see:
16824(bugged)
16075(fixed)

I'll try and post something more conclusive after the fix.

[Inazuma]

I have trouble understanding this. I often use a crafted for power Nabarta with both ice masteries maxed on my Force tree. Is this bug causing the power of my Nabarta to be lower than it should be?

Does this bug affect Sazan in any way?

[UnLucky]

What, was the customization thing subtracted at the very end of the equation so Sazan with -20% was negligible, so now they'll fix it?

If it means +30% will become 1.3x damage, crafting just became amazing. But this is Sega we're talking about.

[Inazuma]

What, was the customization thing subtracted at the very end of the equation so Sazan with -20% was negligible, so now they'll fix it?

If it means +30% will become 1.3x damage, crafting just became amazing. But this is Sega we're talking about.

This has me worried. A 20% to 30% drop in damage for Sazan would really suck. On the other hand, a 100% damage boost for Nabarta would be huge. This change would basically turn Forces into a melee class.

[Shadowth117]

What, was the customization thing subtracted at the very end of the equation so Sazan with -20% was negligible, so now they'll fix it?

If it means +30% will become 1.3x damage, crafting just became amazing. But this is Sega we're talking about.

Oh, but you know this will be more in the vein of how shifta works. Extra level? Welp, now you're getting a whole SINGLE point of atk more! Enjoy!

[jooozek]

pretty sure it will add and not multiply, iirc all the stuff below 100% adds and above 100% are all multipliers
difference now being it doesn't do shit yet

[final_attack]

Well, if it is multiply ..... that Na-Megid ...... ^^;
Still, wanna see power custom affect some tech a little more though. Since I'm using Ra-Megid (power), and still can't see the difference.

[Aine]

Considering the Efficiency recipes are the most popular, unless the damage up recipes become amazing this will essentially be a nerf...

[GoldenFalcon]

I'm absolutely certain that multiplication is not going to happen
Unless they change the numbers.

Right now, power-customized techs are either not benefiting from Masteries, or the power is added at the end. The fix has the potential to make minus power worse. (as Aine just said)

Edit:

I have trouble understanding this. I often use a crafted for power Nabarta with both ice masteries maxed on my Force tree. Is this bug causing the power of my Nabarta to be lower than it should be?

Do you remember the damage difference between ticks of Nabarta and Gibarta?
They should do the same damage

[Inazuma]

I'm absolutely certain that multiplication is not going to happen
Unless they change the numbers.

Right now, power-customized techs are either not benefiting from Masteries, or the power is added at the end. The fix has the potential to make minus power worse. (as Aine just said)

Edit:


Do you remember the damage difference between ticks of Nabarta and Gibarta?
They should do the same damage

I haven't use Gibarta in a very long time, so I have no idea.

[Alma]

http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=3124

Google Translate because I'm lazy:


There is a case where the power of customization technique is not part apply

I am sure the problem that customize the performance of the technique customized for "power", effects such as class skill is not applied.

With regard to this place, but we do support towards the correction.
There is the effect of such class skills will be applied to both the benefits, disadvantages, effect amount increases both modified.

We apologize that we have the inconvenience to everyone.



Considering the Efficiency recipes are the most popular, unless the damage up recipes become amazing this will essentially be a nerf...

so wait...

is these bug affected ALL tech customization type that has "power" element on its merit/demerit?

because like it was said before, many FO's and TE's using tech custom for the pp reduce merit (and that usually paired with "power" demerit)



...if it yes, then SEGA actually nerfing tech with those fix.

...and here i thought tech class cant be make even worse than what it is now...:-?

[Inazuma]

Considering Sega's track record, they could do anything, even if it's extremely fucked up and makes no sense, and the players won't be that surprised.

[Alma]

im worried about these... duh... :mad:

[UnLucky]

I would test this, but my main Force has like 29m of boosters running.

Maybe I'll craft up a +Power Foie since I haven't touched my Force or Techer trees on my alt

I guess the fix would mean the percentages in the Crafting Guide (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217079) would be more accurate. I suppose before they were only 1/2 or 1/3 that amount, if seriously no skill affected the change. I might prefer it that way...

[TaigaUC]

"With regards to Technic Customization's ability to customize "damage" , we have confirmed there is a bug where the effects of class skills etc. are not applied."

The way I see it, it means this:
1. You have a skill like Elemental Weak Hit that increases damage by 120%
2. You customize a tech in a way that affects damage.
3. That tech will no longer be affected by Elemental Weak Hit.

Another example:
1. You have Wind Mastery 1 and 2 for +120% +120% damage.
2. You customize SaZan to increase/reduce damage.
3. Your SaZan loses the +120% +120% damage from Wind Mastery 1 and 2.
4. After the bug fix, you will regain your +120% +120% damage.

In other words, the fix will be a buff.
It means that when they wrote the equations for calculating customized damage, they COMPLETELY FORGOT TO FACTOR IN CLASS SKILLS.

[Shadowth117]

"With regards to Technic Customization's ability to customize "damage" , we have confirmed there is a bug where the effect of class skills etc. are not applied."

The way I see it, it means that if you have a skill like Elemental Weak Hit that increases damage by 120%, if you then use any customization that affects damage, you will no longer be affected by Elemental Weak Hit.

In other words, it's a buff.

Wait... was that a typo? Because if not, now I'm really confused :s

Edit: Okay, well that would make sense then. I was confused since I initially though you meant that they were reverting it to what it is now. But yeah, that's... that's... well I would use some fitting synonym for "stupid", but saying that its SEGA seems to do that better than anything else.

[TaigaUC]

I updated my posts with some examples.

[Rehal]

"With regards to Technic Customization's ability to customize "damage" , we have confirmed there is a bug where the effects of class skills etc. are not applied."

The way I see it, it means this:
1. You have a skill like Elemental Weak Hit that increases damage by 120%
2. You customize a tech in a way that affects damage.
3. That tech will no longer be affected by Elemental Weak Hit.

Another example:
1. You have Wind Mastery 1 and 2 for +120% +120% damage.
2. You customize SaZan to increase/reduce damage.
3. Your SaZan loses the +120% +120% damage.
4. After the bug fix, you will regain your +120% +120% damage.

In other words, the fix will be a buff.
It means that when they wrote the equations for calculating customized damage, they COMPLETELY FORGOT TO FACTOR IN CLASS SKILLS.

If we were to lose 20% of damage from skill just from crafting then we'd have instantly notice that amount of damage loss right after crafting with how huge that amount is.

The bug they are going to fix is more likely about the increase/reduce damage attribute of tech crafting have less effect as it's supposed to be. Reason could be anything, like they make
damage = (tech power * multiplier) + craft power
instead of
damage = (tech power + craft power) * multiplier

[Alma]

thanks for the update.

[TaigaUC]

If we were to lose 20% of damage from skill just from crafting then we'd have instantly notice that amount of damage loss right after crafting with how huge that amount is.

That's what I thought.

When people first tested tech customization, someone said "it looks like the damage increase is additive and not multiplicative, so +30% means +30 damage."
That loss may actually have been caused by the missing class skill multipliers.


The bug they are going to fix is more likely about the increase/reduce damage attribute of tech crafting have less effect as it's supposed to be. Reason could be anything, like they make
damage = (tech power * multiplier) + craft power
instead of
damage = (tech power + craft power) * multiplier

Edit: Oh, I see what you mean now.

I've fully translated the announcement:


Regarding Technic Customization's ability to customize "damage" , we have confirmed there is a bug where the effects of class skills etc. are not applied.

With regards to this, we are working towards a solution.
Once fixed, class skills will take effect alongside both merits and demerits, and will together increase effectiveness.

Our sincerest apologizies for screwing everyone upside-down.


Edit: The question is what "effectiveness" they are referring to.

[Aine]

If we were to lose 20% of damage from skill just from crafting then we'd have instantly notice that amount of damage loss right after crafting with how huge that amount is.

The bug they are going to fix is more likely about the increase/reduce damage attribute of tech crafting have less effect as it's supposed to be. Reason could be anything, like they make
damage = (tech power * multiplier) + craft power
instead of
damage = (tech power + craft power) * multiplier

Yeah, people would have noticed the damage loss instantly due to masteries not being applied.

The site states that skills will now affect craft power, whether it's a merit or demerit. So if you're using an Efficiency recipe, it's a nerf:

damage = (tech power - demerit) * skill multipliers
instead of
damage = (tech power * skill multipliers) - demerit

[Rakurai]

I'm curious as to just how much of a damage increase this is going to provide, considering that +40% Na Foie damage added only about 800 damage for me prior to the fix.

Hopefully it's enough to make power versus efficiency an actual decision.

[TaigaUC]

There's that sentence that literally says:
after correction, {merit, demerit} together with {the effect of class skills} will be applied,
and together {the amount of effect, aka effectiveness} will be {increased/added}.

I suppose that could be interpreted several ways?

I'm trying to see what the JP people are saying about it. Take this thread for example:
http://awabi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ogame3/1393330227/

Refer to post 35 and the replies to 35. Sounds like the sentence is confusing to them as well, and they aren't entirely sure.
But they seem to generally interpret it as "the effects of demerits and merits to increase" as opposed to "general effectiveness will increase".

Previous thread has the initial discussion, starting at post 506. I'm checking it out now:
http://awabi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ogame3/1393318519/

It really sounds like nobody's sure. Good job at being vague as hell, SEGA.
I doubt even SEGA themselves knew what it meant when they wrote it.

[Aine]

I'm curious as to just how much of a damage increase this is going to provide, considering that +40% Na Foie damage added only about 800 damage for me prior to the fix.

Hopefully it's enough to make power versus efficiency an actual decision.

It also says they will increase the craft power for certain recipes, so they might tweak the bonuses to +100 or something. Then again going by that wording they might also increase the demerits as well.

[TaigaUC]

A JP person on 2ch said:


テク倍率*スキル倍率+テクカス倍率
なのが
（テク倍率+テクカス倍率）*スキル倍率
こうなるのかな


Translation: currently it's "Tech multiplier * Skill multiplier + Custom Tech multiplier".
It may become "(Tech multiplier + Custom tech multiplier) * Skill multiplier".

That's what Rehal suggested.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

It'll be a dick move to change things like this after everyone's wasted all their time and money on SaZan and PA tech fragments.
Skimming through these 2ch posts, JP people aren't happy about it either. "As expected of a shit game".
I hope this isn't an attempt to get people to spend real money on "tech resets".

[Sanguine2009]

of course its an attempt to get people to buy tech resets, its sega they just care about their money

[Takatsuki]

As long as they don't screw with my insta-cast Gifoie I don't care what they do.

[Inazuma]

of course its an attempt to get people to buy tech resets, its sega they just care about their money

I read that tech resets will only be available in the recycle shop, and they will require two AC scratch items to acquire. I figured they would be built into the craft system as a recipe, but I guess that would make too much sense.

[Sizustar]

I read that tech resets will only be available in the recycle shop, and they will require two AC scratch items to acquire. I figured they would be built into the craft system as a recipe, but I guess that would make too much sense.

Two AC item, doesn't sound too bad, that's only 250~300k each reset.

[Sanguine2009]

its amusing, apparently some tech customs are so op they need to be nerfed but braver is just fine~

[UnLucky]

Hurray, instead of a 4% increase, it'll now be an 8% increase! That's totally worth the 15% increased PP cost!*

And instead of the 1% damage loss we're now getting with cheaper Sazan, it'll become the full 3%!

Thanks Sega for this wonderful crafting system that has saved Force/Techer from shit tier in a shit game.

*Note: Values assume Great Success for both Merit and Demerit, your mileage may vary

[Inazuma]

@Unlucky

So this means Sazan would have a minor power decrease, but Nabarta would get a large power increase (assuming you are using the PP reduction recipe for Sazan and Power recipe for Nabarta)?

I might be OK with that.

[UnLucky]

Yeah, what I'm assuming it means is like this:

Original Tech: 300% Power
Crafted Recipe: +30% Power

That does NOT increase your tech to 390%, but rather 330% since it's additive. So it should be an overall 10% increase.

The bug meant it didn't even give that whole 10%, since your overall damage before crafting was maybe 800% Power including skills. With the craft it would only be 830% due to the bug. It should be 880%.

For the "good" +Power crafts you'd see a change from:

Nabarta
1357(uncrafted)
1457(bugged)
1624(fixed) for Nabarta

Namegid
17274(uncrafted)
17874(bugged)
18875(fixed

For the +AoE Namegid you'd see:
16824(bugged)
16075(fixed)

I'll try and post something more conclusive after the fix.

[Alma]

So in the end the effect of this "fix" nerfing what most FO's tech use, sazan...?
I do wonder if someone at sega hate tech class with passion and continuosly nerf the already most nerfed class in the game... Force.

[Ratazana]

Intern 1: Director, 78% of players don't have force leveled.
Intern 2: 84% of chars don't have a tmag.
Visiphone: Sale and demand for force related gear is stagneted.
Dudu: We have been processing a lot of Elysions lately, but mostly for old forces.
Janitor: Is it time?
Director: Not yet, let's fuck 'em a bit harder.

[gigawuts]

Just in case the obvious hasn't been pointed out...

There's no way this is going to make the amount of damage noted on a crafting recipe into a multiplier instead of a discretely added/subtracted quantity unless they go around changing things (meaning it was never intended to work that way in the first place). Why? Namegid and its huge 500%+ bonus.

[Arada]

Even wtih a +500% multiplier, we'd barely keep up with Bravers on bosses.

Namegid is not powerful enough for the cost/casting time.
Well, techs are not powerful enough in general.

[gigawuts]

Even wtih a +500% multiplier, we'd barely keep up with Bravers on bosses.

Namegid is not powerful enough for the cost/casting time.
Well, techs are not powerful enough in general.

That's what the Elysion is for.

[Atmius]

Namegid is not powerful enough for the cost/casting time.
Well, techs are not powerful enough in general.

Clearly this (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm19529586) needs to make a return. I also find charged gimegid odd, it looks like it should hit 6 times based off of the animation, but only does so 3 times.

[Saffran]

Charged techs are 4x as powerful as uncharged so Elysion is certainly not covering any damage loss as far as I understand. It's still a rather powerful weapon though...

[gigawuts]

Charged techs are 4x as powerful as uncharged so Elysion is certainly not covering any damage loss as far as I understand. It's still a rather powerful weapon though...

Uuuuh, no

Different techs have different behaviors. Many different behaviors. Some have shorter range, some have less AOE, some have fewer hits, some have lower damage, most have a combination of those.

A select few techs, however, aren't too penalized. Namegid, Sazan, Nabarta, Sazonde, and a couple others are all powerful with the Elysion's +100% damage bonus. Uncharged sazan is only 50% less damage than a charged sazan, meaning the +100% damage bonus brings it up to charged damage levels - it's less like a damage bonus and more like a -100% charge time bonus. Uncharged Sazonde deals half as many tics, but each tic actually does more damage - Uncharged sazonde on an Elysion does more damage than charged sazonde.

[Daemyn]

UUuuugggggggggggghhh fuaaack stop sega please stop killing my preferred class.

Time to recraft a good chunk of techs on my force...

Guess I'll try out guhu or some other overpowered thing to pass the time untill march 5th :|

[cheapgunner]

I hope the new techs coming out in these SH AQs are on shunka's level. I miss PSU Forces smh....

[gigawuts]

I hope they're not, and then I hope Fury Stance is nerfed, and then I hope Shunka costs 10 PP per extra swing and cancels if you don't have enough.

[Coatl]

I hope sazan doesn't get nerfed too much, but if it makes other techs more useful I'll be a happy camper.


I hope the new techs coming out in these SH AQs are on shunka's level. I miss PSU Forces smh....

I think they will really. To me, shunka shenron is a PA balanced toward ultimate mode. From what I've seen, the game has always been releasing more and more powerful PAs, and I wouldn't be surprised if the new FO techs were broken and replaced a lot of FOs old techs.

[cheapgunner]

I hope they're not, and then I hope Fury Stance is nerfed, and then I hope Shunka costs 10 PP per extra swing and cancels if you don't have enough.

You really think Sega is gonna nerf shunka? I thought you were a vet around here Giga? The chance of that happening is the chance Guld Millas drop form SH AQ Rogbelts.

[ShinMaruku]

I hope they're not, and then I hope Fury Stance is nerfed

Designers at this moment tend to point to bring a weaker class up to the the stronger ones since when they nerf they can over nerf and mess with how they had set everything up for the game being balanced around the stronger class.


So yes nerfing sounds good until you see what things were designed around and if you trust the developers to actually handle the change.

Unless this is a huge re-balancing update fury ain't getting nerfed.

[gigawuts]

You really think Sega is gonna nerf shunka? I thought you were a vet around here Giga? The chance of that happening is the chance Guld Millas drop form SH AQ Rogbelts.

So I'm not allowed to want something. As it happens, I also want world peace and a resolution to this whole "world hunter" thing, but I guess that makes me naive irl what with wanting to halt unnecessary human suffering and all.

Designers at this moment tend to point to bring a weaker class up to the the stronger ones since when they nerf they can over nerf and mess with how they had set everything up for the game being balanced around the stronger class.


So yes nerfing sounds good until you see what things were designed around and if you trust the developers to actually handle the change.

Unless this is a huge re-balancing update fury ain't getting nerfed.

Ok, when were you going to tell me something I didn't already know.

edit: And, no, I can design something to do whatever the hell I want but if it doesn't work well then my intended design doesn't matter worth a god damn. Actions aren't defined by intent, actions are defined by their results and implications. Fury's gotta go.

[TaigaUC]

He doesn't really think they will. He just hopes.
It's not the same thing.

I'm expecting Il Zonde and Il Foie to be the caster's Shunka-Shunka.
Watch them hit for 9999999k or something ridiculous.

[pkemr4]

>people bitch about gunner being to weak
>sega buffs gunner to be good
>people bitch about gunner being to strong

wut

also that same argument can be applyed to braver as well.

[ShinMaruku]

Unless you have been in designing something like a game and know the work that needs to go into then you can comment. Fury will go but in the next few patches?! You yourself know it's not going to happen. Keep doing this for your own amusement.
I think we all expect them to make Il Foie be some bullshit damage thing. I'm riding this until PSN if that holds then we will see some reactions from this game. Until then play the hand that you are given.

[Aine]

it's like people want the classes to all be balanced instead of having one class at a time being ridiculously broken

[gigawuts]

Unless you have been in designing something like a game and know the work that needs to go into then you can comment.

This is always my favorite line to read on this forum.

[ShinMaruku]

Everybody wants to be a designer without the work.
And for people saying gunner is OP/UP it's all about you have to show the people what they want and knowing how to actually serve their needs sometimes people don't know what the fuck they want.
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Miyamoto_4f3491_731557.png

This game's balance was handled like shit from day one and it will take them years to address it.

They should have never put in skill trees, they should have watched Blizzard...

[gigawuts]

Everybody wants to be a designer without the work.
And for people saying gunner is OP/UP it's all about you have to show the people what they want and knowing how to actually serve their needs sometimes people don't know what the fuck they want.
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Miyamoto_4f3491_731557.png

This game's balance was handled like shit from day one and it will take them years to address it.

They should have never put in skill trees, they should have watched Blizzard...

Yes, please, by all means, confuse the noise with the voice of reason.

God, why am I even bothering. You're a babbling idiot. I mean, I'm not even being insulting here. You actually are a babbling idiot. I have no idea what you're going on about or why you think now is a good time to bring any of it up, and I really doubt you do either.

[pkemr4]

They should have never put in skill trees, they should have watched Blizzard...

blizzard isnt the only company to put skill tree or shit similar to it in mmos or rpgs.

[Shadowth117]

Everybody wants to be a designer without the work.
And for people saying gunner is OP/UP it's all about you have to show the people what they want and knowing how to actually serve their needs sometimes people don't know what the fuck they want.
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Miyamoto_4f3491_731557.png

This game's balance was handled like shit from day one and it will take them years to address it.

They should have never put in skill trees, they should have watched Blizzard...

No, I disagree that all people talk without putting in the work. I in fact have taken classes on that very field and have friends who work in the field I talk to fairly regularly about the subject.

Thing is, there are a lot of decisions made that are just outright unintelligent as far as this game goes. Now give me a moment here: I'm not talking about the decisions they made to get them more capital. I'm talking about the decisions they've made that are just bad for the game as a whole no matter what your perspective is.

The fallout from the hunter buff for example has led force based classes to be nearly worthless as any sort of proper dps. And you know, you can say "Oh, they should just go with the flow and switch classes" all you want, but the fact remains many people have invested money into extra skill trees for a class that is now pretty horrible to play no matter what tree they invested in. This applies to techer and force which are conveniently the most terrible classes in the game right now. Allowing that to perpetuate is just sad.

The lack of reasonable missions to run is also another problem. There are other games that get a permanent quest or two at least once a month whereas here the only thing we seem to get are EQ's which despite being fleeting are generally still unappealing since they're the standard MPA in a circle formula except with less value to them than normal missions. Not to mention that there are literally no "raid" type quests that are available to do outside of EQ's. It was quite idiotic to me how they could even possibly think that making what they called "a new game mode" and ONLY allowing that "game mode" to be an EQ was anywhere near acceptable.

We have not gotten a permanent new quest type in probably at least a year now and super hard aq's are really only an add on to an existing quest type. Its probably been around a year since we've gotten sanctum TA even. The TA quest line seems basically abandoned at this point despite their talk in the promotions for this game about what they would do with it. The quest counter's permanent quests, aside from the addition of quests I can't even consider true quests like the arks quests and the free field ones, haven't had anything added in months. And for a game making the revenue this one is this is very, very sad.

And I'm sorry, little comments like the ones he made while watching arks GP implying he seriously doesn't know about exploits like homing emission's main use and what dashing techniques are? That right there just proves Sakai has not payed attention to his own game. I'm sorry, but as the lead designer, not knowing crap like that is just bad. In fact, its very bad because not only does the current system that lets people do that create lag and/or frame drops for other players, but depending on the weapons people dash with and the amount of them doing it, the game can become unplayable even on the lowest settings on the best pc's. That's not even mentioning that dashing worth a damn isn't really feasible for the good majority of users on high settings even if they have a good graphics card because of these issues.

This game has over 99 problems, but people expecting more from its devs ain't one.

[Daemyn]

I'd somewhat settle with if force had more speed in movement and attacking
I'd be more willing to settle with the bad damage in favor of more flexibility as well.

Whatever though that won't happen as soon as we get Il foie it will probably be namegid damage with aoe.

We will probably get some kind of fire based potential wand or rod to move us off of talis as well.

Throw in a speed cast fire build and add fi or fo for a large % boost or te for going spam crazy why manically laughing at 40 dead oodan corpses in the new aqs later.

Then get bored .. very very bored.

because after dropping 10,000 god meteors out of the sky force will get stale and bland as fuck for me :c

[Shadowth117]

I'd somewhat settle with if force had more speed in movement and attacking
I'd be more willing to settle with the bad damage in favor of more flexibility as well.

Whatever though that won't happen as soon as we get Il foie it will probably be namegid damage with aoe.

We will probably get some kind of fire based potential wand or rod to move us off of talis as well.

Throw in a speed cast fire build and add fi or fo for a large % boost or te for going spam crazy why manically laughing at 40 dead oodan corpses in the new aqs later.

Then get bored .. very very bored.

But that's just it though! They don't do that. At all. The biggest change force has gotten in a long time was the braver subclass for it to use which let it use some of the more utilitous braver abilities and skills. And I'm sorry, but when someone can even think that using Shunka on Susano is going to be more effective on force on general mobs because of how weak force is as a class than normal force attacks, than there's a problem. And yes, there sadly are probably a fair few instances when that is true as sad as it is for me to admit.

Nope, instead classes like braver which use hunter as their sub just get more and more buffs. Lets not even talk about how much of a joke tech crafting is.

[Daemyn]

Tech crafting makes me want to weep at times aside from the few that are good ish.

I reallly want reset disks now :| at least for na megid I don't like either of the crafts for it.

[Saffran]

>A select few techs, however, aren't too penalized. Namegid, Sazan, Nabarta, Sazonde, and a couple others are all powerful with the Elysion's +100% damage bonus.

I can follow you on Sazan or Nabarta (Nabarta can't be charged anyway), but Namegid can't be used uncharged (you need to charge one second for the spell to exist at all). It would be interesting to know how many seconds are still considered uncharged.

Edit: As long as power is the only thing that saves your ass in this game, the problem with OP moves and one pattern skill trees will stay.

[ShinMaruku]

blizzard isnt the only company to put skill tree or shit similar to it in mmos or rpgs.

No Blizzard is not but they have been managing it best since they have been at it for 10 years. They had to slim down their skill trees. They have run into the situation where they have to cut things down and change things to make the games they make play better (Barring SC2 I think that has other issues more so than balance)

Sonic team should have look at what others have done with the trees and learned from the mistakes so their first go around won't be terrible.

But hey I have come to the conclusion that this game is gonna have it's flaws for some time and I am not going to rage about the bad design ideas because from the past history of the development of this team shows that it would happen.

I could say people are idiots for expecting quality from this game but that would obstreperous of me.

[gigawuts]

I could say people are idiots for expecting quality from this game but that would obstreperous of me.

Yes, it would, because nobody here has expressed expectations; people have expressed wishes.

What sparked this nonsensical blithering of yours was exactly that: A wishlist. I cited things I want. Things I hope are done. In very plain language. You somehow decided that I expected it, and decided to attempt to lord some kind of higher knowledge over me.

What you actually did was cite the most basic gaming information, which is put on a shelf next to "The Halo games at some point in time involve one or more ring-shaped objects."

[ShinMaruku]

You have misread my intentions. To be expected though you seem to be the type for arguments and what not.

Let me restate what I said in plain language as you put it: It's nice to want things, they will see your points and will get to some of them but not anytime soon. Watch for what good they do manage and see how far they are from fixing said issue.

That is no higher knowledge over anybody.

[Shadowth117]

>A select few techs, however, aren't too penalized. Namegid, Sazan, Nabarta, Sazonde, and a couple others are all powerful with the Elysion's +100% damage bonus.

I can follow you on Sazan or Nabarta (Nabarta can't be charged anyway), but Namegid can't be used uncharged (you need to charge one second for the spell to exist at all). It would be interesting to know how many seconds are still considered uncharged.

Edit: As long as power is the only thing that saves your ass in this game, the problem with OP moves and one pattern skill trees will stay.

You do realize namegid can actually be used uncharged right?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9YOXy4VYi4

But yeah, Elysion still really doesn't make force comparable to braver or gunner by any margin.

Edit:
@ShinMaruku: You don't seem to get it. He's not expecting them to see his thoughts one bit. He's just hoping that they'll figure things out on their own though he knows its not very likely.

As for you, I really don't understand what you're trying to argue at this point so I have nothing more to say.

[ShinMaruku]

No but it does make playing them a bit better. Another question is do they have to match those two classes to be fun? I can understand if you want efficiency then you will have to move to another more valid class until they are 'fixed'.

[Shadowth117]

No but it does make playing them a bit better. Another question is do they have to match those two classes to be fun? I can understand if you want efficiency then you will have to move to another more valid class until they are 'fixed'.

I'm sorry, I don't find it fun that no matter how I play my favorite class, its hardly able to do much more than support with zondeel IF I can even cast that before a spawn gets heel stabbed or kan ranned to death as per usual. The sad thing is, even if I were to get an attack in, for the time and PP that I used braver or gunner could have absolutely annihilated a spawn in that time. And bosses? Lol.... my damage with pretty much the best gear I can get for force vs what I do with a gunner or braver with average gear can't be described as anything but laughable.

I'd love to be able to claim I'm exaggerating here, but I'm really not which is the sad thing. There is no slippery slope going on here. Force is just bad enough now that its not really fun for me to play it with other people in most circumstances even if I do like its playstyle the best. It doesn't matter if we're talking TA or not.

[gigawuts]

You have misread my intentions. To be expected though you seem to be the type for arguments and what not.

Let me restate what I said in plain language as you put it: It's nice to want things, they will see your points and will get to some of them but not anytime soon. Watch for what good they do manage and see how far they are from fixing said issue.

That is no higher knowledge over anybody.

What you see as "arguments" are really just very blunt statements. Some people are more than happy to be passive aggressive fuckwits over every little thing; I am not one of them. I just up and say shit most of the time. I've found it to be a very useful tendency. As it turns out, people like to know where they stand, so I like to make it clear.

[ShinMaruku]

That style of communication is useful in some situations and not others. That said it's good for most people to know where everything stands.

[ChinaSue]

I'm sorry, I don't find it fun that no matter how I play my favorite class, its hardly able to do much more than support with zondeel IF I can even cast that before a spawn gets heel stabbed or kan ranned to death as per usual. The sad thing is, even if I were to get an attack in, for the time and PP that I used braver or gunner could have absolutely annihilated a spawn in that time. And bosses? Lol.... my damage with pretty much the best gear I can get for force vs what I do with a gunner or braver with average gear can't be described as anything but laughable.

I'd love to be able to claim I'm exaggerating here, but I'm really not which is the sad thing. There is no slippery slope going on here. Force is just bad enough now that its not really fun for me to play it with other people in most circumstances even if I do like its playstyle the best. It doesn't matter if we're talking TA or not.

I feel very similar about the state of force right now. It almost feels bad to play the class with other people, because you know that you are slowing them down. Especially when I know I can swap to my half-geared Braver class and contribute more to the party.

Even though I like force playstyle the most, it's just not fun to feel this weak.

[Saffran]

>You do realize namegid can actually be used uncharged right?

Put namegid on a slot, press the corresponding key, your character will have some animation but otherwise *nothing happens* (except you losing 60 PP). You absolutely have to charge the spell (at least one second or so) to have something going on.
Maybe the wiki has something about what charge time is considered uncharged in the case of Namegid...

[gigawuts]

>You do realize namegid can actually be used uncharged right?

Put namegid on a slot, press the corresponding key, your character will have some animation but otherwise *nothing happens* (except you losing 60 PP). You absolutely have to charge the spell (at least one second or so) to have something going on.
Maybe the wiki has something about what charge time is considered uncharged in the case of Namegid...

It's only charged if it completes.

By your logic every single tech in the game (besides Nabarta) is always charged, even if only for .00001 seconds.

And yes, this has been tested. If it didn't work this way we wouldn't be saying it did.

[Bellion]

It is uncharged for up to 6 seconds or so.

[dr apocalipsis]

Easiest way to try is to take 2 similar geared Forces, with similar crafted techs but different trees.

Lvl16 Sazan on both, one with wind mastery, the other without, or any other combination.

I'm on boosters right now :(

[Shadowth117]

>You do realize namegid can actually be used uncharged right?

Put namegid on a slot, press the corresponding key, your character will have some animation but otherwise *nothing happens* (except you losing 60 PP). You absolutely have to charge the spell (at least one second or so) to have something going on.
Maybe the wiki has something about what charge time is considered uncharged in the case of Namegid...

Dude... I mean did you just not watch that video I so kindly posted or something? I'm not sure what exactly to tell you if you saw the numbers and charge times there and believed that wasn't uncharged namegid. Hell, the dude who made the video posted above me. What more proof do you need here?

Edit: @dr apocalipsis:
There's... nothing to test right now. You realize this right?

[Sizustar]

So, in short, boosting the attack% through crafting isn't worth the cost increase in PP?

[UnLucky]

Namegid only counts as charged if you hold it until it goes off by itself.

Release it at any point before then and it counts as uncharged, even a millisecond before the full charge, and it's no more powerful than the first second.

[jcart953]

>people bitch about gunner being to weak
>sega buffs gunner to be good
>people bitch about gunner being to strong

wut

also that same argument can be applyed to braver as well.

This about sums things up....

[gigawuts]

You know, I somehow think there just might be a middleground between Gunner being as weak as it was and Gunner having over 120% more damage than it used to have plus bonuses that work on non-weak points too.

[Sanguine2009]

there is such thing as over buffing you know? braver was almost perfect with just hatou, hell throw in the speed buffs too. its shunka that threw off the balance

[MetalDude]

>people bitch about gunner being to weak
>sega buffs gunner to be good
>people bitch about gunner being to strong

wut

also that same argument can be applyed to braver as well.

It's because both classes are now brain-dead retarded to use now. Their play style has become extremely repetitive and boring one trick ponies that are incredibly easy to use and yield ridiculously high rewards with little effort. Simply put, the best classes in the game are also the most boring. RA/HU and FI/HU, which are more than decent right now but not OP, require a decent amount of skill to use and have a wide variety of PAs and weapons to work with that are necessary for performing well in the right situation. That's what GU and BR are severely missing right now.

What's so irritating about it in general is that Sega was doing a gradual and slow effort to give both classes more tools to compete and play well. GU got range improvements on ZRA and Satellite Aim alongside Reverse Tap pull-in, allowing them to have a build focused on pulling in and obliterating targets. BR got Hatou Rindou, a rather unique PA for its multi-hitting factor making it great for bossing and certain enemies. Then Sega for whatever reason completely gave up and just tossed GU SR JA, simultaneously ruining its previously skill-based ZRA style in favor of faceroll IF spam for days. BR went from using Sakura, HR, and KR to pretty much just Shunka, Shunka, Shunka, and KR (and sometimes HR).

[TaigaUC]

>people bitch about gunner being to weak
>sega buffs gunner to be good
>people bitch about gunner being to strong

wut

also that same argument can be applyed to braver as well.

You're completely missing the context.
Complaints about a class being weak are in regards to balance, which is defined by comparing with other classes.
A class being too powerful also disrupts balance.

Both are valid complaints under the context of balance.

[gigawuts]

Yeah, I would actually argue FI/HU is in a really good place right now. RA/HU is in a stronger place, and I don't actually have experience playing it (just RA/GU) but I really don't think it needs to hit quite as hard.

What actually needs to change is the way headshots work. Mechguns shouldn't get 2x damage, and launchers shouldn't either. Reduce both to something like 1.35x, raise launcher bodyshot damage, and leave mechguns about where they are.

Dealing 15k damage on headshots to everything in front of me with infinity fire's shotgun blasts is just obnoxious.

Obviously it won't change, but it would be a start. The whole lazy system is coming back to bite Sega in the ass.

[MetalDude]

It really shows in areas like Quarry where RA/HU instantly becomes almost useless. I wouldn't mind a tradeoff where rifle/launcher bodyshots are stronger in general because it would make certain encounters way less polarizing for RA (and Bow BR for that matter, given it also should get that change). As it stands, RA/HU already deals tremendous damage on headshots, more than enough to one-shot a bulk majority of enemies on SH.

[gigawuts]

I like rifles being based around pinpoint precision. It's also a nice tradeoff for being able to store weak bullets. I think 2x headshot damage for them is fairly nice.

Everything else needs way better bodyshot damage though, and way less headshot damage.

[TaigaUC]

I still think they should add more depth to the combat gameplay than what we currently have.
For example, a focus on defensive counterattacks, where players are forced to defend from aggressive enemy attacks and react appropriately with a new set of abilities.
...without requiring stupid shit like buying a separate tree or farming a rare version of a rare boss, of course.

[MetalDude]

True, most of the time when I use rifles, it's to hit weakpoints so I agree there.

Launchers have been falling out for me because anything other than headshot damage on them is garbage. 4-5k Cluster Bullets, really? I can manage 7.7k Rodeo Drives from Standing Snipe which is alright before considering that takes a whole 2 seconds to setup. Stronger body shots on launchers would be a great way to balance RA's kit overall and I think they'd be just about perfect with that kind of change.

[Walkure]

Fighter and Ranger need some QoL changes, but that's not entirely related to balancing.

I'd also like if Fighter wasn't so dagger-centric, with Bloody Sarabande being so good of a mob clearer and Symphonic Drive being great at repeatedly smacking a moving or elevated weak point. Knuckles and Double Saber are mostly brought out when Backhand Smash or Deadly Archer would outperform Symphonic spam, but not for much else.

[GoldenFalcon]

Fighter and Ranger need some QoL changes, but that's not entirely related to balancing.

I'd also like if Fighter wasn't so dagger-centric, with Bloody Sarabande being so good of a mob clearer and Symphonic Drive being great at repeatedly smacking a moving or elevated weak point. Knuckles and Double Saber are mostly brought out when Backhand Smash or Deadly Archer would outperform Symphonic spam, but not for much else.

They should just give Fighter a skill on the side of the tree to increase JA damage after doing the shift action

amirite

Hunter can get JA damage after Just Counter

Ranger can... have the right half tree reworked. Same with Gunner

[Walkure]

Pls no.

At most, make standing snipe / stance dancing less obnoxious.

[UnLucky]

I think it's ridiculous that Ranged weapons get 2x headshot damage when techs get 1.2x or 1.3x and you have to spec your entire tree to actually make use of.

Where is my 2x elemental weakness bonus and 1.25x skills for the same without Masteries? And give me 50% weapon element attribute for techs while you're at it, thanks.

[gigawuts]

I think it's ridiculous that Ranged weapons get 2x headshot damage when techs get 1.2x or 1.3x and you have to spec your entire tree to actually make use of.

Where is my 2x elemental weakness bonus and 1.25x skills for the same without Masteries? And give me 50% weapon element attribute for techs while you're at it, thanks.

Where are my varying elemental weaknesses

Gimme gorongos with a 60% weakness to fire, 40% weakness to wind, and 30% weakness to ice. Dinians with a 60% weakness to ice, 35% weakness to dark, and 25% weakness to light.

Varying elemental weaknesses need to be added to give force and techer the depth they need, and then masteries need to work on the bonus elemental damage on guns and melee weapons (also wand gear explosion) for hybrid benefit.

[Shadowth117]

I think it's ridiculous that Ranged weapons get 2x headshot damage when techs get 1.2x or 1.3x and you have to spec your entire tree to actually make use of.

Where is my 2x elemental weakness bonus and 1.25x skills for the same without Masteries? And give me 50% weapon element attribute for techs while you're at it, thanks.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and quote this (although I'm hoping you're not implying techs ever get the extra head weakpoints that ranged attacks do).

That kinda thing really needs to happen. Maybe we'll get it with the guntecher or masterfoce equivalent in this game.

[jcart953]

I keep hearing people saying br and gu are so repetitive but people keep forgetting this whole game revolves around being a repetitive I mean we run the same mission over and over again hoping to get that 1 good weapon that we will mainly use all the time, all while using the same pas, same skill tree builds, same class combos,same PB, all while trying to maximize that 1 main stat on that 1 good map(ok sometimes we get a couple good maps).

If we take a look at the other classes we can see that in various points throughout pso2 history we were and for the most part still doing the same repetitive stuff..

Fo: was generally , zondeel + zonde
hunter at one point was OE everything
te anything is generally : zondeel +wand smack or sazan almost everything
Ra at beg-was what SS, SS , Ss?
Ra/hu(later evolved to)--mostly just AB,AB AB-->then WB +HE
Fi/hu--was just DA/DA/DA & Azzbuster
Braver- at beg. was SE SE SE ....



Not to mention people keep talking about gunner being brain dead as if it was something special before. Most of the time it was go Ra or go home. When people did use gu you practically still spammed the same shit except instead of back flipping it was spam ER and knock things all over the place or juggle in the air forever. If you were lucky you had someone use ER,IF and SA at the right times. Now that's not to say I don't wish things were different, but lets face it guys almost everything we do in this game is repetitive.


Disclaimer: The list above doesn't include everything just some things that were done repetitively throughout pso2 history, nor did I include every instance where you could have or personally would have chose a different PA. Like using launcher instead of Ab,ab,ab or tri instead of ab, ab, ab or Slide end instead of Azzbuster ...etc.

[Ratazana]

People stuck in the past butthurt because another class got a better spam.

All this balance talk is nice but we play the game as it is, not as it ought to be.

[LonelyGaruga]

Varying elemental weaknesses do exist, they're just so shallow that they might as well not exist. Big Vardha and Fang/Snow duo have a 110% weakness to wind. Their rare counterparts ditch the weakness though. That's about it, basically. I don't know if EWH even triggers for 110% weaknesses since they're unlisted when you lock on to the enemy. I also don't know about any mobs added after Coast due to finding this stuff out from the datamined hitzones from a thread a while back. For all I know Vardha Soma is also weak to wind by 110%.

The elemental weakness system could have a lot more depth. It'd be nice to see it expanded upon. Sega doesn't make much sense with the system as it is. I can understand Aginis being weak to fire and wind, but not the rest of the Forest mobs, especially Bantha Ong having it as its sole weakness. Not even a 110% weakness to fire. Why would a wolf be weak to wind. Fire is a natural weakness to forest dwelling animals. Ice is sometimes also a logical weakness. But wind is usually effective on flying creatures, of which only one enemy in Forest is. Seabed mobs being weak to Ice also doesn't make much sense to me. Coast works because beaches don't prepare animals living there very well for either fire or ice. But the bottom of the ocean is cold. Ice is a logical weakness to water, but it's not as logical as fire or lightning for animals that would be adapted to the cold ocean floor.

There's a lot of expansion available for logical weaknesses to be implemented. All Forest enemies could be weak to fire, with some being weak to ice, lightning, and/or wind as appropriate. VC enemies besides Vol could be weak to Dark as well as Ice. I don't know about Light as a weakness. It might work, but not for Dinian. Healing is something generally associated with light in this game. I think giving them a resistance to light would make more sense.

Resistances in general could use some expansion too. The number of mobs that have any form of resistance is abysmal. Among all natives, only rare snow pair have any form of resistance to elements (to ice). Not even regular snow pair have a resistance to ice. Gilnach is the only mech to have any form of resistance, to light (which I find really funny, since I saw you tested some elemental damage and managed to pick one of very few enemies in the game to have any resistance at all in the first place). Vol, Quartz, Ex, Falz Arms/Elder all just resist everything they aren't weak to (not quite that simple, but it's close to it). Falz Hunar's sword is the only notable case I can think of. His sword takes 1% of every element except for Light, which it takes 600% damage from. Obviously not something that should be done with every enemy, but that is really unique.

As things currently stand though, Sega seems to really want to keep elements as neutral as they can, with the few notable exceptions out there. Next survey I'm going to tell them I just want more work put into weaknesses and hope for the best.

Actually, I do have a question about that. Has Sega ever changed weaknesses in the past? I don't expect a game company to do anything without precedence. If they haven't, then I don't think any changes are actually going to happen unless a large number of people requested this specifically.

[Shadowth117]

@Ratazana:
I would just mainly like to TA and do DPS as a class category I enjoy playing.

I have a capped br and gu with reasonable gear and it makes a little sick how good they are at that level. But honestly, if I needed to use FoTe for a run, god forbid, I can't even quad with step attack properly (that aiming shot bs does not count as "properly", sorry). You'd at least expect a class where you need multiple trees to do it even somewhat decent would be somewhat usable, but apparently that's asking for a lot.

[Macman]

I like rifles being based around pinpoint precision. It's also a nice tradeoff for being able to store weak bullets. I think 2x headshot damage for them is fairly nice.

Everything else needs way better bodyshot damage though, and way less headshot damage.
THIS! THIS THIS THIS!
Take away launcher's headshot damage (other weak spots still apply) and give it much higher damage in general and it might actually be useful again.

[cheapgunner]

While we're at it, boost zero distance and crash smash by a significant amount. Skills like that should do much higher damage given the class using them is ranger. As for Techs, Nazan should have been the version of BHS at lv 16, as well as Nabarta. Close ranged techs on a glass cannon should get higher base power than other techs at this point.

[pkemr4]

People stuck in the past butthurt because another class got a better spam.

All this balance talk is nice but we play the game as it is, not as it ought to be.

this.

[Ratazana]

@Ratazana:
I would just mainly like to TA and do DPS as a class category I enjoy playing.

I have a capped br and gu with reasonable gear and it makes a little sick how good they are at that level. But honestly, if I needed to use FoTe for a run, god forbid, I can't even quad with step attack properly (that aiming shot bs does not count as "properly", sorry). You'd at least expect a class where you need multiple trees to do it even somewhat decent would be somewhat usable, but apparently that's asking for a lot.

It's fine to discuss this utopian "balance" thing you guys often mention. But expectations lead to disappointment and some people can't handle it well.

Bitching about x because it's too good is classic scrub behavior. People playing by the game actual rules will be busy looking for xs and learning how to exploit it for maximum effect.

Edit: Also people that say gu and br is just endless spam, believe or not there is a lot of room for improvement there. There are worlds of difference between the guy that shunka most of the stuff and fills his pb 10 times faster than the guy whiffing attacks.

[Z-0]

My favourite thing about the game is being the best. Gotta always be the best, no matter what I'm playing.

As long as I'm the best, it's fun.

[Zenobia]

It's fine to discuss this utopian "balance" thing you guys often mention. But expectations lead to disappointment and some people can't handle it well.

Bitching about x because it's too good is classic scrub behavior. People playing by the game actual rules will be busy looking for xs and learning how to exploit it for maximum effect.

Edit: Also people that say gu and br is just endless spam, believe or not there is a lot of room for improvement there. There are worlds of difference between the guy that shunka most of the stuff and fills his pb 10 times faster than the guy whiffing attacks.

Ya know this brings me back to a post I made long time ago but not here.

Playing to win
Playing to win is the most important and most widely misunderstood concept in all of competitive games. The sad irony is that those who do not already understand the implications I'm about to spell out will probably not believe them to be true at all. In fact, if I were to send this article back in time to my earlier self, even I would not believe it. Apparently, these concepts are something one must come to learn through experience, though I hope at least some of you will take my word for it.

Introducing...the Scrub

In the world of Street Fighter competition, there is a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn't attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design--it's meant to be there--yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

[Ratazana]

Yes, Sirlin is the best.

That book should be obligatory reading.

[Zenobia]

It is you got that right.

[MetalDude]

I more than acknowledge that BR and GU are the best.

I just think it's boring as shit.

I have nothing against people that use either class. I just personally find it makes the game more flat and boring than it already is. There's a lot that can be done to make RA/HU more powerful than just AB + WB/HE. The only complex thing about BR is knowing when to use HR instead of Shunka.

[Touka]

Ya know this brings me back to a post I made long time ago but not here.

Playing to win
Playing to win is the most important and most widely misunderstood concept in all of competitive games. The sad irony is that those who do not already understand the implications I'm about to spell out will probably not believe them to be true at all. In fact, if I were to send this article back in time to my earlier self, even I would not believe it. Apparently, these concepts are something one must come to learn through experience, though I hope at least some of you will take my word for it.

Introducing...the Scrub

In the world of Street Fighter competition, there is a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn't attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design--it's meant to be there--yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

I get how this is applied to fighting games but how does this apply to PSO2?Exactly what are you "winning"?


Yes, Sirlin is the best.

That book should be obligatory reading.

Depending on who you ask Sirlin either did a good job with HD Remix or RUINED ST,i'm the later.

[Zenobia]

I get how this is applied to fighting games but how does this apply to PSO2?Exactly what are you "winning"?.

You forgot how people make competitions out this game already? And that street fighter thing was an example to describe scrub if you read it right. it also described people complaining about X class being weak or to OP.

[Z-0]

Same logic applies.

People don't like something, so they label it with negative connotations, when there's absolutely nothing wrong with it in principal.

[Touka]

You forgot how people make competitions out this game already? And that street fighter thing was an example to describe scrub if you read it right. it also described people complaining about X class being weak or to OP.

Nah I haven't forgotten but I think the game is too casual to make competitions out of,just my opinion.

I get the scrub thing but I think it just comes down to personal taste,you may enjoy Shunka'ing paper enemies to shreds but to me it gets a bit old after a while.

[Zenobia]

Nah I haven't forgotten but I think the game is too casual to make competitions out of,just my opinion.

I get the scrub thing but I think it just comes down to personal taste,you may enjoy Shunka'ing paper enemies to shreds but to me it gets a bit old after a while.

I don't even use "Just shunka" is prob why people get bored in your case but I use all my PA's.

[Touka]

I don't even use "Just shunka" is prob why people get bored in your case but I use all my PA's.

Oh I was just generalzing what people would complain about,I don't just use Shunka either.I use it with Hatou and Kanran.

What I was trying to say was that I wish the enemies didn't die in 3 hits of Shunka but I can't expect Sega to make this game harder than it already is so i'll deal with it.

[Zenobia]

Haha yeah lol but that's how the game is sadly TA's, EQ's and afk fest oh and looking for challenges for yourself. Honestly w/e floats ppls boat really.

[Z-0]

No game can be "too casual" for any sort of competitive play to come out of it. That's like arguing Pokémon shouldn't be competitive at all, when the aim is to beat the Elite Four and catch all the pokémons. The main "aim" of PSO2 is to level up and collect rares, but that doesn't mean the game cannot be competitive.

Providing the means is there, it will happen and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Also, it is usually the bad players who complain that classes are spammy. Any good player will use all the good attacks of a class, rather than just one or two. I have 4 Katana palettes for a reason (along with 4 Mechs, 4 RA palettes (rifle, launcher, 2x gunslash), etc). I guess the problem is more that you can win being spammy, but that's still not the most efficient way of doing anything, so you will be losing out in some way or another (generally loss of time).

[oratank]

I wish the enemies didn't die in 3 hits of Shunka but I can't expect Sega to make this game harder than it already is so i'll deal with it.

i think sega should nerf this op pa

[Zenobia]

No game can be "too casual" for any sort of competitive play to come out of it. That's like arguing Pokémon shouldn't be competitive at all, when the aim is to beat the Elite Four and catch all the pokémons. The main "aim" of PSO2 is to level up and collect rares, but that doesn't mean the game cannot be competitive.

Providing the means is there, it will happen and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Also, it is usually the bad players who complain that classes are spammy. Any good player will use all the good attacks of a class, rather than just one or two. I have 4 Katana palettes for a reason (along with 4 Mechs, 4 RA palettes (rifle, launcher, 2x gunslash), etc). I guess the problem is more that you can win being spammy, but that's still not the most efficient way of doing anything, so you will be losing out in some way or another (generally loss of time).

Pretty much this. I love getting stronger and killing things fast and when I see someone stronger than me I strive to become stronger than them if not better. Plus I am always up for some competitive play.


i think sega should nerf this op pa
Braver is best mating stallion leave my Class alone please :_:!

[Ratazana]

And then Sega comes along and give us something like td where performance = rares is in your face.

Of course there will be competition.

[Touka]

Haha yeah lol but that's how the game is sadly TA's, EQ's and afk fest oh and looking for challenges for yourself. Honestly w/e floats ppls boat really.

Nah it's all good man,I like this game because the gameplay has so much potential that Sega has yet to capitalize on.I played PSU till the end(US servers anyway)so I can wait a bit longer hoping Sega wakes up.


No game can be "too casual" for any sort of competitive play to come out of it. That's like arguing Pokémon shouldn't be competitive at all, when the aim is to beat the Elite Four and catch all the pokémons. The main "aim" of PSO2 is to level up and collect rares, but that doesn't mean the game cannot be competitive.

Providing the means is there, it will happen and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Also, it is usually the bad players who complain that classes are spammy. Any good player will use all the good attacks of a class, rather than just one or two. I have 4 Katana palettes for a reason (along with 4 Mechs, 4 RA palettes (rifle, launcher, 2x gunslash), etc). I guess the problem is more that you can win being spammy, but that's still not the most efficient way of doing anything, so you will be losing out in some way or another (generally loss of time).

Nice post and when I said it's casual its really just my opinion,more power to you if you enjoy challenging yourself in this game.

I think you've brought up a relevant point in that most pas.....just aren't that good.It's been a problem ever since PSU,Sega is bad at balancing pas.Jabroga and Majarra were the Shunka of that game and they never got fixed or balanced as far as I remember(correct me if i'm wrong my memory is real bad).

It'd be nice if they had more class balance fixes in patches but i'm not holding my breath.

[GoldenFalcon]

Jabroga and Majarra were the Shunka of that game and they never got fixed or balanced as far as I remember(correct me if i'm wrong my memory is real bad).

Chikki

oh god the Chikki days in White Beast

[Inazuma]

The Play to Win mindset even applies to single player games.

I agree that learning about the mindset of the pro gamers is very important and the absolute most important thing a gamer can learn. I'm not saying everyone should play every game with the goal of becoming the best in the world, but having an understanding of what makes good players good is super important and it will help you greatly when you play games, even casual ones.

But despite being incredibly important and something every gamer should understand, 99% of gamers don't understand and flat out refuse to attempt to understand it. Even gamers who say that they want to win, and want to be good at games, will often refuse to consider learning about the pro mindset and insist it is bullshit or doesn't apply.

It's both incredible and very sad that such a crucial piece of information is often ignored. Open minded people are quite rare. The Play to Win or Pro mindset is basically just taking the general concept of being open minded and applying it to video games.

[Touka]

Chikki

oh god the Chikki days in White Beast

Was that the slicer pa?And lol White Beast.

Inazuma:Nothing wrong with applying pro strats to your own gameplay but it also depends on how much you want to invest in it yourself.I refuse to do quad dashing because I use a PS3 pad and my fingers hurt after a while.I could macro it yes but it's not something I feel I should have in my reptoire.

[GoldenFalcon]

Was that the slicer pa?And lol White Beast.

Yes, it was doing the Shunka finisher to an entire map at once

[GoldenFalcon]

The Play to Win mindset even applies to single player games.

Do you mean the basic idea of using what wins the fastest?

Yes, there's that. I tried that

Now I'm a force being a special snowflake, since half of techs are ignored* and there's a ton of room to be unique. It's a lot more exciting and personal

* just a guess

[Ratazana]

Well now I'm pretty sure. Inazuma is the best troll ever.

[Inazuma]

Do you mean the basic idea of using what wins the fastest?

Yes, there's that. I tried that

Now I'm a force being a special snowflake, since half of techs are ignored* and there's a ton of room to be unique. It's a lot more exciting and personal

* just a guess

It depends on the game, its own rules and also what you are trying to accomplish.

On the subject of techniques in PSO2, you should generally try to use the best tech for the current situation. Your classes, skill trees and gear would factor in. However if it works out, the best tech to use is the best tech to use.

If you are purposely and knowingly choosing to use techs because they are not the best to use, you are not playing the game as well as you could be. If there is an OP attack in a video game, good players will take advantage of it and spam the fuck out of it. If that OP attack is the best attack to use in 9 out of 10 situations, the good players will use it in 9 out of 10 situations. If something changes and a different attack is better to use, they will use that one.

One of the most common problems with scrubs is they consider using the best char, weapon, attack etc as cheap or cheating. They think the player has less skill if he uses OP abilities in order to increase his chances of winning. The opposite is actually true.

[Zenobia]

Yes, it was doing the Shunka finisher to an entire map at once

LOL I remember this PA AOE on that thing was ridiculous, was my Fav PA back then..and I miss PSU....

[Kikikiki]

Man I miss when Gunner was considered scrub because it can't even outdamage HU.

And then there's Braver.

Where is my cane.

HAHAHA.

[jooozek]

dem times when aqs were all TMG x

[Touka]

And then there's Braver.

And PSO2 braver isn't even as bad as PSP 2 braver.

[BIG OLAF]

when I see someone stronger than me I strive to become stronger than them if not better. .

I thought of Dragonball Z, or Naruto, or some other cheesy anime when I read this, honestly.

Not that it's a bad thing. Quite the opposite, really. It just sounded funny and cliché to me. Someday, I'll be the best there ever was! Heeeeee-yaaaa!

[Zenobia]

I thought of Dragonball Z, or Naruto, or some other cheesy anime when I read this, honestly.

Not that it's a bad thing. Quite the opposite, really. It just sounded funny and cliché to me. Someday, I'll be the best there ever was! Heeeeee-yaaaa!

Bully ;_;.....

[Walkure]

No game can be "too casual" for any sort of competitive play to come out of it. That's like arguing Pokémon shouldn't be competitive at all, when the aim is to beat the Elite Four and catch all the pokémons. The main "aim" of PSO2 is to level up and collect rares, but that doesn't mean the game cannot be competitive.

Providing the means is there, it will happen and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Also, it is usually the bad players who complain that classes are spammy. Any good player will use all the good attacks of a class, rather than just one or two. I have 4 Katana palettes for a reason (along with 4 Mechs, 4 RA palettes (rifle, launcher, 2x gunslash), etc). I guess the problem is more that you can win being spammy, but that's still not the most efficient way of doing anything, so you will be losing out in some way or another (generally loss of time).Bunch of good points, there.

While I normally do go with what's most effective, I only go for being the best, or failing that, one of the best in my group of people. Goes doubly so for F2P games since getting up to par with some players can take a lot more money than I'd care to spend. Of course, there's no real problem if other people want to do so.

It is pretty silly to yell at players who play the most effective classes in a game. However, it's still not wrong to want to have balance within a game, and such a desire is certainly not mutually exclusive with performance/competitive gameplay.

[GoldenFalcon]

It depends on the game, its own rules and also what you are trying to accomplish.

On the subject of techniques in PSO2, you should generally try to use the best tech for the current situation. Your classes, skill trees and gear would factor in. However if it works out, the best tech to use is the best tech to use.

If you are purposely and knowingly choosing to use techs because they are not the best to use, you are not playing the game as well as you could be.

"best to use" depends on the perception as well

For example, when enemies are too scattered, I throw a talis up into the air and cast Megid from it. If I have territory active and can, I zondeel and Ramegid instead. If I need to break a part, I use Namegid from talis for the 1.2 extra multiplier. Razan on the palette to disrupt choice targets

I have gravitated towards dark because the spells perform differently from the other elements, which feel same-y (with the exception of the extremely situational Zan)
I went into it thinking I would use wind and lightning, but they don't feel right, so I avoided 'knowingly choosing to use techs that are not the best to use'

[UnLucky]

i think sega should nerf this op pa
Fury Stance to boost techs.

All balance issues solved.

All of them.

[TaigaUC]

But then we'd have to deal with SEGA telling us that Hunter is the most popular played class because of their amazing Jedi Gunslash abilities.

[gigawuts]

Well now I'm pretty sure. Inazuma is the best troll ever.

I remember making this exact post.

But now I'm convinced he's completely serious, which is actually scary.

[Saffran]

>For example, when enemies are too scattered, I throw a talis up into the air and cast Megid from it.

You're not playing to win then?

I like playing to win, yet in a RPG I would expect some kind of variety in the means to achieve that. PSO2 lacks these means. There are extremely few setups that can be considered optimum and they all require you to use the same things again and again, on top of being obnoxiously blatant.

[GoldenFalcon]

>For example, when enemies are too scattered, I throw a talis up into the air and cast Megid from it.

You're not playing to win then?

I don't see the backup to your claim

[Sandmind]

I'm guessing it's because megid is a kinda low damage tech. But I agree with golden that it's main advantage is the ridiculous blast radius (plus the casting from a talis for the reduced travel time for multiple megid).

[Saffran]

It's because neither BrHu nor GuHu can use techs. If you're using techs, you're the wrong class to be playing to win.

And that is (in part) the problem I have withing playing to win in PSO2.

[TaigaUC]

Any confirmation yet on what the fix will actually be?

[ShinMaruku]

I'd hazard when the new PAs and techs come out. Roll everything in.

[Rakurai]

So...

I didn't notice any mention of a fix for this issue in the patch notes.

Wonder when it's actually going to happen.

[GoldenFalcon]

So...

I didn't notice any mention of a fix for this issue in the patch notes.

Wonder when it's actually going to happen.

http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=3124

"In the March 5th 2014 update, bug fixes were made."

[TaigaUC]

It happened. Has anyone noticed a difference?

List of bug fixes here (they also listed the Fury Combo Up bug)
http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=3180


テクニックカスタマイズのカスタマイズ性能「威力」において、クラススキルなどの効果が適用されない不具合 の修正

[Rakurai]

My Zan seems to about 100 more damage per hit then it used to.

Which still isn't enough to warrant using power over charge time or efficiency.

[TaigaUC]

Anyone else notice any differences?

[UnLucky]

Damage difference isn't noticeable on my newearl, but once my boosters wear out on my caseal I'll go learn Sazan and test the damage before and after a -25% Power craft. Hopefully I have enough spare SP to grab Wind Mastery or something.

[UnLucky]

Alright here we go:

lv28/17 Te/Fo Caseal
lv8 Sazan (279 Power)
602 total T-Atk
lv10 Wind Mastery 1 + lv1 Wind Mastery 2 = 126%
lv5 Talis Tech Bonus = 120%

Tested on lv9 Oodan:
259 damage on crit

with lv12 Shifta (680 total T-Atk):
296 on crit

Using a crafted Sazan with -28 Power (251 total):
233 on crit
266 on crit with Shifta


Maths:
259/2.79*2.51=233
296/2.79*2.51=266

Everything checks out, the percentages do not lie. So if it were broken before, it's fixed now I guess.

[TaigaUC]

Thanks.