Anime, with the scantily clad shit

[Nitro Vordex]

Don't put bitches in camo clothing and make them wear tank tops. That's not how camo works the skin is reflective put those away goddamn

[Palle]

Much better.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vT6UCb3HrmE/TASZGIo-KYI/AAAAAAAAAmQ/GB2_TR-r1v0/s1600/1_masamuneShirow.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Sayara]

Fuck YEAH

[Nitro Vordex]

Classy as fuck.

[Shadowpawn]

Fucking sharp.

[BIG OLAF]

I read the thread title and came as fast as I could!

:wacko:

wait

:disapprove:

[Zorafim]

I can find some scantly clads for you. Just give me five seconds on google.

[Outrider]

Actually, the funny thing is I'm pretty sure Shirow Masamune is now known for making characters that are never wearing appropriate clothing and all look like Real Dolls.

(Possibly) speaking of what Nitro's talking about, can we talk about Quiet in Metal Gear Solid V?

I keep seeing people saying that the reason she's half-naked is because she has invisibility camo and the only way it will work is if she's not wearing any clothes. I keep seeing people saying this as if invisibility camo is a real thing and not something completely fictional with rules that are entirely determined by the author of the fiction.

Nudity and sexualized characters are great (Who doesn't like non-gross sexy things?) when it makes sense in context and isn't exploitative. I have little reason to believe this example makes sense and isn't exploitative in the given context.

[gigawuts]

sex sells

having at lest one fanservice character costs little to nothing extra, but will aid in sales

from a business perspective, it would be stupid not to put in a scantily clad character

[Palle]

Actually, the funny thing is I'm pretty sure Shirow Masamune is now known for making characters that are never wearing appropriate clothing and all look like Real Dolls.

Yes, sometime after the commercial success of GITS (I'm thinking 1998~2000ish), he began this strange transition from complex, highly-technical world-building as a backdrop for well-paced and exciting storytelling to CGI pinup girl sculpting. As far as I know he's gone full ecchi now. Weird.

:-?

[gigawuts]

Yes, sometime after the commercial success of GITS (I'm thinking 1998~2000ish), he began this strange transition from complex, highly-technical world-building as a backdrop for well-paced and exciting storytelling to CGI pinup girl sculpting. As far as I know he's gone full ecchi now. Weird.

:-?

It's easier and probably sells more to casual browsers (and kids).

[Palle]

It's easier and probably sells more to casual browsers (and kids).

Possibly. I mean yes that is true, but in his case I'm sure he's loaded as fuck and doesn't need to press sales. I suspect it's just all he wants to do at this point in his career.

/conjecture

[Outrider]

sex sells

having at lest one fanservice character costs little to nothing extra, but will aid in sales

from a business perspective, it would be stupid not to put in a scantily clad character

Well, I thought it was pretty clear I was asking from a creative standpoint, but sure let's play:

No, sex is not some unified design choice that sells across the board. Sex can be portrayed in a myriad of different ways and aimed at a any number of different demographics. Different types of sexualized content can sell to different kinds of markets, but that doesn't mean that sexual content has a universal appeal or that specific kinds of sexual content are appealing to a majority of the target demographic.

The kind of sexualization we're seeing with this character sells well with the adolescent man-children segment. That's not really a niche anybody should be chasing or catering to with their mainstream entertainment product especially when the creator is trying to suggest that it is a serious piece of drama made for serious, mature adults.

Now on the other hand, if Konami & Kojima were just admitted the entire MGSV game was being designed to tittilate the reptile brain of teenagers, I would withdraw my complaint. The problem is when you ask people to hold your work to a higher standard they generally tend to, y'know, hold it to a higher standard.

[gigawuts]

Well, I thought it was pretty clear I was asking from a creative standpoint, but sure let's play:

No, sex is not some unified design choice that sells across the board. Sex can be portrayed in a myriad of different ways and aimed at a any number of different demographics. Different types of sexualized content can sell to different kinds of markets, but that doesn't mean that sexual content has a universal appeal or that specific kinds of sexual content are appealing to a majority of the target demographic.

The kind of sexualization we're seeing with this character sells well with the adolescent man-children segment. That's not really a niche anybody should be chasing or catering to with their mainstream entertainment product especially when the creator is trying to suggest that it is a serious piece of drama made for serious, mature adults.

Now on the other hand, if Konami & Kojima were just admitted the entire MGSV game was being designed to tittilate the reptile brain of teenagers, I would withdraw my complaint. The problem is when you ask people to hold your work to a higher standard they generally tend to, y'know, hold it to a higher standard.

Money.

Your argument is invalid.

[Outrider]

Money.

Your argument is invalid.

C'mon, we both know you can troll better than that.

(At least, I hope you can.)

But anyway: Kojima has clearly stated that Quiet is naked for a creative reason, going so far as to say people will feel bad when they find out why she's dressed like she is. Hey, if that's the case, then maybe he's thought of a good reason to do something gross and tasteless. However, current theories point to the reason being that she's a victim of sexual assault which is... not great in terms of either trying to build a character or in trying not to be tasteless? So... bleh.

[gigawuts]

C'mon, we both know you can troll better than that.

Oh I'm not trolling. I'm completely serious. Even the most esteemed individuals must bow to the pressure of money - if not for themselves, then for others. Maybe it wasn't even within his power. Maybe he it was give and take. Maybe this, maybe that.

But to say the kinds of things you're saying, that a game must be one thing or the other and cannot be intended as one thing yet still be laced with content that would sell it to different audiences anyway, is just naive; nevermind saying that any individual, no matter who, would be the only person with the power to make the decision and that noone else would have a vested interest.

[Zorafim]

(Who doesn't like non-gross sexy things?)

I like gross sexy things.

[Outrider]

No, no, it is not about money. It's Hideo Kojima and it is Metal Gear Solid V. You either have no working knowledge of AAA development in general or you have no working knowledge of the creative control given to Kojima on this series but either way you just keep saying profoundly stupid things.

I know you think your generalized cynicism is somehow insightful but I don't have the hours needed to catalog the myriad of ways in which you are wrong.

Stop. Dear God, stop.


I like gross sexy things.

Well, I'm not here to question your fetishes.

[BIG OLAF]

So, I'm confused. Is Outrider insinuating that because Hideo Kojima is Hideo Kojima and MGS is MGS, that there's absolutely no way they'd ever try to use sexualization to sell something? Y'know, like pretty much every other company does?

Because that's profoundly stupid.

Because, they are doing that.

...and it doesn't matter.

[gigawuts]

So, I'm confused. Is Outrider insinuating that because Hideo Kojima is Hideo Kojima and MGS is MGS, that there's absolutely no way they'd ever try to use sexualization to sell something? Y'know, like pretty much every other company does?

Yes, he is.

I mean, I'll be the first to admit I know essentially nothing about MGS, Hideo, or anything Playstation or Sony at all, but

Money and greed have a hand in every single business decision (and believe me, if it goes into something that makes a business money it is a business decision), and calling pointing that fact out cynicism is of the most heinous naivete a person can commit.

I'm not sure what I expected here though. I replied to Shinmaruku and had to deal with Shinmaruku. Now here I am doing it all over again.

[Outrider]

So, I'm confused. Is Outrider insinuating that because Hideo Kojima is Hideo Kojima and MGS is MGS, that there's absolutely no way they'd ever try to use sexualization to sell something? Y'know, like pretty much every other company does?

Because that's profoundly stupid.

Because, they are doing that.

...and it doesn't matter.

I posted that Kojima wouldn't need to do something like this for financial reasons if he didn't want to, and he said he's doing it for creative reasons, so I am asking about those reasons.

If you're really going to imply that nothing in a business is ever done due to creative or personal preferences, then I'm going to assume you've never worked in a creative industry. Businesses with creative products pay people to be creative. When those people have made those businesses many millions of dollars, they are often trusted with their creative decisions with less and less interference.

I'm assuming I'm not moving too fast for you guys here.

If we're really going to have a discussion about the business side of things in the games industry, then I am glad to have it. I am literally paid for my knowledge and skill with business matters in the games industry. It is my job. So yeah, I'm happy to provide some insight outside of when I'm clearly asking a question about creativity. I'll be the first to admit that I don't do AAA projects, but I'm still on top of the trends and am familiar with many elements of that space.

To get back on topic, if you're going to say:

a creative director,

who has been successful at his job specifically because his company gives him overwhelming creative control without publisher input,

and is well-known almost exclusively due to the creative freedom that he's had for almost thirty years,

and has said he has made a questionable creative choice for creative reasons,

is either being told to do so for financial reasons,

or is actually doing it due to his own financial reasons instead of the aforementioned creative reasons,

then yeah, I'm going to dismiss you as somebody who doesn't know what you're talking about.

[gigawuts]

I posted that Kojima wouldn't need to do something like this for financial reasons if he didn't want to, and he said he's doing it for creative reasons, so I am asking about those reasons.

If you're really going to imply that nothing in a business is ever done due to creative or personal preferences, then I'm going to assume you've never worked in a creative industry. Businesses with creative products pay people to be creative. When those people have made those businesses many millions of dollars, they are often trusted with their creative decisions with less and less interference.

I'm assuming I'm not moving too fast for you guys here.

If we're really going to have a discussion about the business side of things in the games industry, then I am glad to have it. I am literally paid for my knowledge and skill with business matters in the games industry. It is my job. So yeah, I'm happy to provide some insight outside of when I'm clearly asking a question about creativity.


To get back on topic, if you're going to say:

a creative director,

who has been successful at his job specifically because his company gives him overwhelming creative control without publisher input,

and is well-known almost exclusively due to the creative freedom that he's had for almost thirty years,

and has said he has made a questionable creative choice for creative reasons,

is either being told to do so for financial reasons,

or is actually doing it due to his own financial reasons instead of the aforementioned creative reasons,

then yeah, I'm going to dismiss you as somebody who doesn't know what you're talking about.

Ah, I see. So in the games industry decisions can only be made based on a single reason, and people have only one motivation, and nobody ever tells half-truths, withholds information, or lies. Interesting, I had no idea the games industry was that cut and dry, thanks for the info.

edit: Then again, I also had no idea that I thought my cynicism was insightful, so it seems you know more about everything - including myself - than I do. I shall yield to your expertise.

[ShinMaruku]

I hear lots of talk about Kojima but no pics of his scantily clad ladies... For shame people.
No I am not posting them picks. You do it :E

[Palle]

I hear lots of talk about Kojima in this anime thread.

#fklproblems

[BIG OLAF]

I posted that Kojima wouldn't need to do something like this for financial reasons if he didn't want to, and he said he's doing it for creative reasons, so I am asking about those reasons.

Okay, that makes more sense.

But, the question now is:

Why do you care about his reasons? If he's as successful and well-respected as is claimed, then why do his reasons for doing something even warrant such scrutiny? What's the big deal? Let him do what he's going to do, especially if he, himself, has claimed the decision to be 'questionable', as you claimed. He doesn't need anyone else telling him what he already knows.

[ShinMaruku]

#fklproblems

#eveproblems

[CelestialBlade]

Can't a guy have a passion?

[Sayara]

a...
PASSION FOR FASHION!?

[gigawuts]

Can't a guy have a passion?

Sure.

They just can't have a passion and rise through the ranks without also being a greedy jerk in some form or another.

[Nitro Vordex]

Why do you care about his reasons? If he's as successful and well-respected as is claimed, then why do his reasons for doing something even warrant such scrutiny? What's the big deal? Let him do what he's going to do, especially if he, himself, has claimed the decision to be 'questionable', as you claimed. He doesn't need anyone else telling him what he already knows.
Probably to know if he "sold out", or something of the like. Or other reasons that I can't think of because I did not expect an actual discussion.

[Outrider]

Okay, that makes more sense.

But, the question now is:

Why do you care about his reasons? If he's as successful and well-respected as is claimed, then why do his reasons for doing something even warrant such scrutiny? What's the big deal? Let him do what he's going to do, especially if he, himself, has claimed the decision to be 'questionable', as you claimed. He doesn't need anyone else telling him what he already knows.

I'm pretty sure Kojima wouldn't give a damn about what any of us think. I don't think anybody thinks that.

But if you're questioning why somebody would be critical of art...? Eesh, that is a much larger discussion.

Basically it boils down to: Is Kojima being gross and sexist on purpose or is he trying to use this to make a statement about sexism (but might possibly inadvertently still wind up being gross and sexist)? Kojima claims it's for a creative reason and that he's subverting the sexist stereotype, but everything we've seen makes it seem like we might be walking into a tone deaf bit of writing that actually winds up reinforcing the stereotype.

If he's using this gross cultural imagery to make a statement about how messed up that is... awesome! That's really neat.

If he's making a character that is naked in order to entertain teenage boys and uses sexual assault as a way to build her character... that's super gross and disappointing. Especially if he's claiming that MGSV is going to be this huge, controversial, adult drama that's going to deal with some very dark themes.

It's a bit harder to take a game about imperialism and child soldiers (which is what the game is supposed to be about) seriously when you have a half-naked lady sniper that's reinforcing lots of negative sexist imagery.

Like I said: if we're being asked to hold the game to a higher critical standard, as a consumer of media I'm just trying to hold it to a higher critical standard. That means talking about these things to figure out what they mean and sometimes that also means figuring out if they're problematic or not.

[gigawuts]

But Kojima can't sell out; he is the incorruptible man.

I say "the" because he'd be the only one.

[BIG OLAF]

But it's not sexist, and it's certainly not gross. It's just a design choice. if you think a semi-exposed female is "gross", then you need thicker skin, mate.

Being "sexist" is saying "if women didn't have mouths I'd cut all their heads off."

Having a character wear a bra top in a video game is...nothing.

[ShinMaruku]

Kojima is the king of trolls. I think he's just trolling.

[.Rusty.]

RULES OF FANSERVICE!

~BADASS GUITAR SOLO~

~CUTS GIANT ROBOT BUTT IN HALF~

[ShinMaruku]

RULES OF FANSERVICE!

~BADASS GUITAR SOLO~

~CUTS GIANT ROBOT BUTT IN HALF~

http://25.media.tumblr.com/b575da5d966a1a194d96ae6675bcb973/tumblr_mhx4zoe3Lh1rwpzaeo1_1280.png

[Vintasticvin]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/b575da5d966a1a194d96ae6675bcb973/tumblr_mhx4zoe3Lh1rwpzaeo1_1280.png

OH NOW THATS just plain sexist there ugh how utterly disgusted I am by this horrendous picture of a scantly clad woman slicing that innocent man in half!!!! Oh the outrage and lack of concern for his well being!!!

haha just couldn't let that slip by.

[.Rusty.]

How is that cyborg fan service? You can't even see her circuit boards :nono:

[gigawuts]

Sometimes it's not about what you see, it's about what you don't see.

CLANG CLANG CLANG

[Nitro Vordex]

*pic*
http://i.minus.com/ibeqPCJMfU3O8O.gif

[Outrider]

But it's not sexist, and it's certainly not gross. It's just a design choice. if you think a semi-exposed female is "gross", then you need thicker skin, mate.

Being "sexist" is saying "if women didn't have mouths I'd cut all their heads off."

Having a character wear a bra top in a video game is...nothing.

Yes, you're right: presenting every single character as a soldier in appropriate attire that doesn't emphasize their secondary sexual characteristics EXCEPT for the one woman, who winds up wearing a bikini and torn stockings in a war zone and whose defining character trait is that she is mute (oh right - and the implication that she's a victim of sexual assault) is in no way sexist. It's clearly just a design decision. That is a sound point.

(Now, if Snake spends most of the game walking around in a thong & fishnet stockings after getting molested by some enemy soldiers, I may have to withdraw my statement.)

C'mon dude, you really think I'm trying to say bikinis and boobs are gross? Saying that people against sexism are just being prudes is like... Misdirection 101 kinda stuff. At least try and bring some next level fallacies if you're gonna go that route.

Sex and sexism are two very different things, and I'm pretty sure nobody who is against sexism is against sex. Sex is awesome. Using sex as a way to minimize the role or importance of one gender or to simply treat that gender as an object to please the other is generally not awesome.

ANYWAY,

Nitro, bro, I owe you an apology. Didn't mean to turn your thread into "people are sometimes ignorant and stupid and then Outrider tears their (metaphorical) throats out." Sorry, man. Anything I can do to make it up to you?

[gigawuts]

Outrider tears their (metaphorical) throats out.

While this is not what has happened here, I don't feel bothered enough to try to correct you on this, especially not after prior dealings with you such as the Metroid Other M thread.

You can believe whatever you'd like to, such as being mute meaning you're not allowed to talk.

[CelestialBlade]

Sex is awesome.
This is the new topic now.

[BIG OLAF]

Yes, you're right: presenting every single character as a soldier in appropriate attire that doesn't emphasize their secondary sexual characteristics EXCEPT for the one woman, who winds up wearing a bikini and torn stockings in a war zone and whose defining character trait is that she is mute (oh right - and the implication that she's a victim of sexual assault) is in no way sexist. It's clearly just a design decision. That is a sound point.

(Now, if Snake spends most of the game walking around in a thong & fishnet stockings after getting molested by some enemy soldiers, I may have to withdraw my statement.)

C'mon dude, you really think I'm trying to say bikinis and boobs are gross? Saying that people against sexism are just being prudes is like... Misdirection 101 kinda stuff. At least try and bring some next level fallacies if you're gonna go that route.

Sex and sexism are two very different things, and I'm pretty sure nobody who is against sexism is against sex. Sex is awesome.

Correct, it's a design decision. A popular one. To make sales. Like Gigawuts pointed out. Sure, it mostly caters to horny neckbeards, but money's money, no matter who's making the game and what their 'reputation' is, despite you wanting to argue tooth and nail that Kojima would never, ever do that.

Guess what? He is!

If fact, he said on Twitter (back in September) that he made Quiet more "erotic/sexy" to encourage cosplays and boost figurine sales.

He said that.


Using sex as a way to minimize the role or importance of one gender or to simply treat that gender as an object to please the other is generally not awesome.

Except that's not happening here in the slightest. It's clothes...and not even really outlandish, fanservice-y clothes that one would see in an anime like Kill La Kill. It's just...clothes! You still have no idea what actual sexism is.

I don't see how having a woman in a tattered, makeshift top is "minimizing" her role in whatever the story is. You're taking one thing and trying to make a correlation where there is none. Her attire in no way affects the inner workings of her mind. You can have a deep, complex, important-to-the-story character and still have them dress "gross and tastelessly", as you put it.

If she's a sniper, she wants to be quick, mobile, agile, and able to sneak around without being seen or heard. So, it sort of almost makes sense that she wouldn't be decked out in full combat attire like Snake and whoever else. Personally, I don't see why she couldn't be in a [tattered] catsuit or something, but everyone would probably think that's just as 'objectifying', so that wouldn't quell the shouts of 'sexism.'


ANYWAY,

Nitro, bro, I owe you an apology. Didn't mean to turn your thread into "people are sometimes ignorant and stupid and then Outrider tears their (metaphorical) throats out." Sorry, man. Anything I can do to make it up to you?

Wasting your energy whining about female attire in video games (and the only reason you probably even started doing that from time to time is likely due to third party instruction and/or influence) is hardly 'tearing someone's throat out.'

Like, fuck, what is this, Tumblr?

But, like Gigawuts said, there's no getting through to people who focus on arbitrary crap like this. Just keep pumping those fists and 'changing the world', I suppose. Get those hammers and keep smashing.

[gigawuts]

This is the new topic now.

I want this to happen, but I feel like the forum rules wouldn't allow for the direction I'd want that discussion to take.

[.Rusty.]

Ahh yes the perfect outfit for sneaking around in 1980 Afghanistan.

http://i.imgur.com/elzJnne.jpg

[BIG OLAF]

I saw that picture on DA. I like it on Snake, too.

Everyone should be dressed like Quiet in MGSV.

Hopefully that's like an unlockable feature.

[Outrider]

Correct, it's a design decision. A popular one. To make sales. Like Gigawuts pointed out. Sure, it mostly caters to horny neckbeards, but money's money, no matter who's making the game and what their 'reputation' is, despite you wanting to argue tooth and nail that Kojima would never, ever do that.

Guess what? He is!

If fact, he said on Twitter (back in September) that he made Quiet more "erotic/sexy" to encourage cosplays and boost figurine sales.

He said that.


He did! He also backtracked immediately and went on to explain (http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/09/07/hideo-kiojima-explains-quiet-blames-negative-reaction-on-cultural-differences-details-metal-gear-solid-vs-themes/):


But once you recognize the secret reason for her exposure, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds.

Which was, y'know... what I was referencing in the first place. My bad, I keep forgetting you guys aren't following this story but are still commenting on it. I could have provided some more sources.


Except that's not happening here in the slightest. It's clothes...and not even really outlandish, fanservice-y clothes that one would see in an anime like Kill La Kill. It's just...clothes! You still have no idea what actual sexism is.

For the record, you are saying this is regular clothing:

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130906154435/metalgear/images/4/4b/4d68aa283cfd93230e1f70b70a1e4ee11378467692_full.jp g

You know people who dress like that!? Damn, if so, I apologize for assuming this was ridiculous and I wish more power to them.


I don't see how having a woman in a tattered, makeshift top is "minimizing" her role in whatever the story is. You're taking one thing and trying to make a correlation where there is none. Her attire in no way affects the inner workings of her mind. You can have a deep, complex, important-to-the-story character and still have them dress "gross and tastelessly", as you put it.

Well, I guess you could be right. It's possible her costume isn't meant to reflect her role in the story or the amount of agency she has. Maybe nothing will happen in the game that will provide unsettling context to her costume...

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/19057837/mgs5_quiet.0_cinema_480.0.jpg

Oh.



If she's a sniper, she wants to be quick, mobile, agile, and able to sneak around without being seen or heard. So, it sort of almost makes sense that she wouldn't be decked out in full combat attire like Snake and whoever else. Personally, I don't see why she couldn't be in a [tattered] catsuit or something, but everyone would probably think that's just as 'objectifying', so that wouldn't quell the shouts of 'sexism.'

Well, I think Rusty summed this one up pretty well. I agree, though! I would love if every single character wore this outfit.


Wasting your energy whining about female attire in video games (and the only reason you probably even started doing that from time to time is likely due to third party instruction and/or influence) is hardly 'tearing someone's throat out.'

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't really think I'm doing this because other people want me to. Heck, I would be shocked if everybody else in the thread isn't rolling their eyes at me because they all know it isn't worth it.


Like, fuck, what is this, Tumblr?

Man, I wish it was. There would be a lot more animated gifs.


But, like Gigawuts said, there's no getting through to people who focus on arbitrary crap like this. Just keep pumping those fists and 'changing the world', I suppose. Get those hammers and keep smashing.

Eh, I don't think "wanting things to stop being hella sexist" is arbitrary, but will do, brosef.

[BIG OLAF]

I don't see any backtracking in that article. Even if he did, I guarantee he still holds the aforementioned reasons of increasing sales close to his heart, personally.

Point is: a video game character wearing an outfit like that is not "hella sexist."

Things like this are, though (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/28/nurbanu-acid-attack_n_2206621.html).

I really don't know why you, and people like you, cannot get that through your skulls. If you spoke out this vehemently about actual sexism, about actual inequality, about actual injustice....man, what a world this would be! I'd really like to see it. Save your words and energy for something that matters, not for stupid topics like this that do no harm to anyone.

[Nitro Vordex]

*snip*

Nitro, bro, I owe you an apology. Didn't mean to turn your thread into "people are sometimes ignorant and stupid and then Outrider tears their (metaphorical) throats out." Sorry, man. Anything I can do to make it up to you?
Make a cheesecake and make it your sig for a month.

[yoshiblue]

Make a cheesecake and make it your sig for a month.

[SPOILER-BOX]No! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFGfWrJR5Ck)[/SPOILER-BOX]It has to be funyuns!

[Uncle_bob]

Are we talking about breasts?

[gigawuts]

yeah, but not in the good way

[Uncle_bob]

I don't understand how that's possible.

Nevermind I used my wizardry and read through the thread and concluded that Tumblr is now here.

[Outrider]

Make a cheesecake and make it your sig for a month.

I... will not do that.

But I'll change your sig to a cheesecake if you'd like!

[Nitro Vordex]

I... will not do that.

But I'll change your sig to a cheesecake if you'd like!
Coward.

[ShinMaruku]

http://i.minus.com/i7ReTzW9rjtBr.gif