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Chdata
Mar 9, 2014, 12:39 PM
Sometimes SEGA has responded to things where their entire playerbase complains (like those noisy TMGs from a while ago).

Has there been any sign that sega might lower SHUNKA's power?











or probably they make stronger enemies and call that balancing because shunka is on par with it

Enforcer MKV
Mar 9, 2014, 12:44 PM
Sometimes SEGA has responded to things where their entire playerbase complains (like those noisy TMGs from a while ago).

Has there been any sign that sega might lower SHUNKA's power?

or probably they make stronger enemies and call that balancing because shunka is on par with it

Will they? Probably not. The majority of the playerbase is probably either playing Braver and Shunka'ing it up, or playing Gunner and using their own OP tricks. Most people are probably fine with the damn thing.

Should they? Well, Sega should do quite a bit in order to at least attempt to properly balance the game. They won't, though.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Mar 9, 2014, 12:47 PM
*Sees shift period*

Nope.

Sp-24
Mar 9, 2014, 12:49 PM
Japanese developer, nerfing a katana?

Dnd
Mar 9, 2014, 12:57 PM
Japanese developer, nerfing a katana?

Unfortunately, this.

Sega wont nerf it, they won't touch it for like, a year or two before it becomes 'balanced' compared to everything else we have. For an example, look at over-end :3

Ratazana
Mar 9, 2014, 01:05 PM
Shunka is pretty OP but it's the whole package that makes BR ridiculous. They won't nerf it directly but eventually a combination of factors will turn something else into numero uno. The cycle will keep going until BR ends in the gutter.

Lostbob117
Mar 9, 2014, 01:09 PM
There's so many things they need to do, but oh well, it's a pve game so they probably won't balance it. Plus, who cares about balancing it? People love it.

Sanguine2009
Mar 9, 2014, 01:15 PM
sega only nerfs tech related things, there is no way they will nerf shunka

Misaki Ki
Mar 9, 2014, 01:16 PM
They only care to nerf forces.

Zenobia
Mar 9, 2014, 01:39 PM
Shunka is balanced and it has risk involved there is a reason why you see bad Bravers just spamming it even if it has super armor and dieing.

Case in point it doesn't need a nerf its balanced for the reason explained above and if you're using that one pa and that ONE only then I see why lol.

I honestly can't stand seeing Bravers just dieing constantly and eating up my moons cause they wanna spam that damn PA and all the time just to die.

Its come to the point if I keep seeing that SAME person dieing like that I wanna just leave then dead but I am to nice to do so.

Zorafim
Mar 9, 2014, 01:42 PM
This game seems to be unbalanced in waves. I doubt Shunka will be nerfed. But still, other things will be buffed until Shunka doesn't seem that great.

Which, honestly seems kinda hard to believe looking at it. It does ridiculous single target damage, is quick, and darts straight to your target. Even if its damage was terrible, I'd still have it on my palette.

Macman
Mar 9, 2014, 01:45 PM
I just think it costs too little PP for such high damage. Everything else that's comparable costs 35-40 or more.

Daiyousei
Mar 9, 2014, 01:50 PM
Shunka is balanced and it has risk involved there is a reason why you see bad Bravers just spamming it even if it has super armor and dieing.

Case in point it doesn't need a nerf its balanced for the reason explained above and if you're using that one pa and that ONE only then I see why lol.

I honestly can't stand seeing Bravers just dieing constantly and eating up my moons cause they wanna spam that damn PA and all the time just to die.

Its come to the point if I keep seeing that SAME person dieing like that I wanna just leave then dead but I am to nice to do so.

This. I'm beginning to have runs where I use up all 5 moons.

And this showed up on facebook recently https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=731708803515598&set=gm.759771714033830&type=1&theater

Some guy actually complaining about Shunka spammers. Shunka may be good, but there's a risk factor to it. It takes some skill to not die while using it against multiple enemies, I know when to cancel the PA to dash avoid or block. I'd rather do less damage than take damage.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Mar 9, 2014, 01:51 PM
I just think it costs too little PP for such high damage. Everything else that's comparable costs 35-40 or more.

There's a commonly accepted idea that shunka and fudo had their PP costs accidentally switched.

HeyItsTHK
Mar 9, 2014, 01:54 PM
I'm in the group that thinks it should have a PP cost, but seeing how many people die while using it like the OverEnd of old, it's fine as is. Cause I don't know how they expect to one shot a Zeshy while it's spinning.

btw-Niji
Mar 9, 2014, 01:59 PM
I honestly wish they would nerf it to some degree so those Bravers who use only this PA will finally learn of Kanran and Hatou Rindou's existence.

pkemr4
Mar 9, 2014, 02:01 PM
imagine the bitching and crying if shunka gave invun frames during the whole attack animation.

Zenobia
Mar 9, 2014, 02:07 PM
This. I'm beginning to have runs where I use up all 5 moons.

And this showed up on facebook recently https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=731708803515598&set=gm.759771714033830&type=1&theater

Some guy actually complaining about Shunka spammers. Shunka may be good, but there's a risk factor to it. It takes some skill to not die while using it against multiple enemies, I know when to cancel the PA to dash avoid or block. I'd rather do less damage than take damage.
I loled...

Maninbluejumpsuit
Mar 9, 2014, 02:07 PM
imagine the bitching and crying if shunka gave invun frames during the whole attack animation.

Combat escape...

pkemr4
Mar 9, 2014, 02:12 PM
Combat escape...

when combat escape is on CD

jooozek
Mar 9, 2014, 02:18 PM
I loled...

thats still not as lulz worthy as the mpa i was in: only BR and GUs
hueaheuaheuahea

LonelyGaruga
Mar 9, 2014, 02:19 PM
Bad Bravers dying using Shunka Shunran doesn't make it balanced. It just makes it easier to pinpoint which Bravers are only playing it for Shunka Shunran and don't know how to play. Shunka Shunran isn't something that works for every single scenario, and it doesn't need to in order to be OP. Look at how well it works in the hands of good players instead.

pkemr4
Mar 9, 2014, 02:23 PM
i hate how you cant cancel out the first or second slash (?) with guard >_<

Kikikiki
Mar 9, 2014, 02:25 PM
Can't you just release the direction button instead?

Zenobia
Mar 9, 2014, 02:31 PM
thats still not as lulz worthy as the mpa i was in: only BR and GUs
hueaheuaheuahea

I've been in those so I am not surprised...


Bad Bravers dying using Shunka Shunran doesn't make it balanced. It just makes it easier to pinpoint which Bravers are only playing it for Shunka Shunran and don't know how to play. Shunka Shunran isn't something that works for every single scenario, and it doesn't need to in order to be OP. Look at how well it works in the hands of good players instead.

It having super armor is a suicidal tactic meaning if you don't kill it withing the time you're not able to be staggered then you die if you do you won the 1 on 1 duel or mob duel its balanced point blank.

You just explained it yourself by saying it doesn't work in every single scenario which make sit balanced duh.

TBH Shunka is a boss killing PA not a mob clearer once you get too the boss you activate Katana gear go into brave escape and say GG.

Daiyousei
Mar 9, 2014, 02:32 PM
Speaking of MPAs with only BRs and GUs, there comes a few times when they'd actually do too much damage against Falz arms, killing Falz with arms left to break.

IndigoNovember
Mar 9, 2014, 02:39 PM
Unless things have changed, breaking arms only allows units to drop and doesn't affect any other drop rates. So it doesn't really matter if all the arms are gone or not, unless you don't have premium and really want to have units with no S-DEF.

Also, Backhand Smash did the same thing.

isCasted
Mar 9, 2014, 02:43 PM
As I said it before, even if it will do less damage and cost 100 PP it will not be balanced, because it's super passive and elliminating any effort for a class that's supposed to be a class for advanced players. It's terrible as it is and it will be terrible in any form.

About risk and moon consumption... It's bs. I have only 1 unit that has defensive purpose (that 100 HP rear one) and I really die less frequently during Shunka spam than when I play Force. The only easy way to die is when you get under some stupid attack like Ragne's psycho-sneeze that's unavoidable anyway.

Zenobia
Mar 9, 2014, 02:46 PM
Please you said defensive purposes and explain it like everyone runs a defensive build when people play for power. Go spam shunka on Vol in SH and tell me wow many times he allows it with your "Defensive build" cause that's BS.


Matter of fact spam against quarts dragon in SH and then tell me lol.

deahamlet
Mar 9, 2014, 02:52 PM
Ahhh... that's why I've been seeing bravers dead on the floor.

Actually, not really. FYI I've been seeing people on the floor with the Katana Combat aura around them still white. I don't think anyone here noticed (because you're all too uber to ever get flinched) but SEGA F-ed up Katana Combat sometime in the last few weeks... if you get flinched while activating it you can still fly around and have the aura but you are NO LONGER INVULNERABLE regardless of you spending the skill points on 20s invulnerability. I discovered this by getting hit 2 weeks ago while aura around me and teleporting everywhere. In the last week I haven't seen bravers dead everywhere cause they finally figured out what SEGA f-ed up and are being smarter where they activate.

SEGA should have left it that if you get flinched it just doesn't activate and you lose it... than having the aura and finding out "oops, getting hit in the face still". It's dumb.

I personally like Kanran or whatever it's called when mobs are upon the towers because I jump and use it: breaks the backs so no more stupid mobs exploding on towers and people and if assassins it flips them over. Sadly the bigger mobs are not getting flipped over by the PA. I do use Shunka and eat some 200 damage sometimes but I know how to use it and have never died from it. I have died from stupidity of other flavours but not that.

I keep fussing with Hatou and I still am completely unimpressed by its damage... it's 16 now and I don't see the fuss even when attacking a Fang/Snow Banther/Banshee. KC+Shunka to the face and finisher and it's more than likely dead (if in a party as I usually am, they don't drop anything for me to farm them solo *snooze*). Especially with your friendly neighbourhood gu/ra WB-ing that face.

Punisher106
Mar 9, 2014, 03:03 PM
http://puu.sh/7pdAc.png

That's all I have to say.

GALEFORCE
Mar 9, 2014, 03:04 PM
You can spam shunka against vol pretty easily. It's the best way to break its tail. Shunka is only partially balanced by its weird mechanics. It's still totally broken as far as being a gap closer, damage/pp ratio, one-shotting mobs, etc. goes.

None of you can deny that shunka is the optimal PA to use 95% of the time.

Zenobia
Mar 9, 2014, 03:13 PM
Cause it's not lol. Not like you have KC up 100% of the time anyway but the times KC is up sure spam it.

Natsu Nem
Mar 9, 2014, 03:14 PM
They won't nerf it. Remember way back then when the old Zonde was overpowered? Sega nerfed old Zonde which caused a huge uproar in the playerbase. After that event, Sega is now really afraid to nerf players' skills and utilities.

Since everyone and their grandmother plays Shunka BR right now, Sega doesn't want to nerf Shunka because they fear the backlash they will get if they do.

MetalDude
Mar 9, 2014, 03:21 PM
It having super armor doesn't make it suicidal when you can guard between every single slash. If you don't think you'll get the kill or you're about to run into trouble, then it's very easy to disengage. The removal of super armor would actually balance this move by forcing you to pick and choose your attacks because you run the risk of getting interrupted or flinch locked to death. The only reason players die using Shunka is that they're not only diving into terrible positions but continuing to hack and slash away where they'll easily die. If mobs are clustered, then a Kanran followed by Shunka completely wipes out any threats (which would also negate the need for super armor in the first place).

btw-Niji
Mar 9, 2014, 03:40 PM
I keep fussing with Hatou and I still am completely unimpressed by its damage... it's 16 now and I don't see the fuss even when attacking a Fang/Snow Banther/Banshee. KC+Shunka to the face and finisher and it's more than likely dead (if in a party as I usually am, they don't drop anything for me to farm them solo *snooze*). Especially with your friendly neighbourhood gu/ra WB-ing that face.
Unless your gear really sucks/your fury skills aren't maxed, Hatou is better dps than Shunka on quite a number of bosses... especially with WB up and 150PP for 5 consecutive PAs.

But the PA requires good positioning, aiming (TPS) and being at distance to avoid it's damage reduction.

supersonix9
Mar 9, 2014, 03:41 PM
it's just the current meta; wait until they make something else even more OP.

HeyItsTHK
Mar 9, 2014, 03:41 PM
Why do people feel compelled to bring up exceptions as counter points to generalization. Of course there are exceptions and specific cases, it's common sense.

Sp-24
Mar 9, 2014, 04:06 PM
Because it's hard to maintain an image of a pro player if you just spam the most overpowered PA in the game most of the time. Instead, you very often use a perfectly balanced PA that takes great skill to pull off properly. See the difference?

Inazuma
Mar 9, 2014, 04:18 PM
Because it's hard to maintain an image of a pro player if you just spam the most overpowered PA in the game most of the time. Instead, you very often use a perfectly balanced PA that takes great skill to pull off properly. See the difference?

Except that's not how pro players think. One quality of a pro player is abusing whatever is OP as much as possible. Purposely choosing a weaker tactic because it will be more challenging doesn't make you skillful, rather the opposite is true.

Sanguine2009
Mar 9, 2014, 04:39 PM
that mind set is flawed, simply using shunka does not automatically make someone good or skilled. while yes given 2 players of a similar skill level a braver will probably out perform another melee class
a good player using fighter or something similar can out perform a bad player using shunka. does that make the good fighter a worse player skill wise simply for not using braver?
not really, it simply means they are good at getting the most out of a weaker class.
skill has little to do with the class you play but rather how you use it.

Shadowth117
Mar 9, 2014, 04:56 PM
that mind set is flawed, simply using shunka does not automatically make someone good or skilled. while yes given 2 players of a similar skill level a braver will probably out perform another melee class
a good player using fighter or something similar can out perform a bad player using shunka. does that make the good fighter a worse player skill wise simply for not using braver?
not really, it simply means they are good at getting the most out of a weaker class.
skill has little to do with the class you play but rather how you use it.

As much as I hate to agree with Midori, there is some truth to what he says. He's speaking in very general terms here.

What he's saying is that the best players of something will take advantage of what's available to them to the best of their ability. If the absolute best thing you can do when playing is to spam one move in any circumstance, than that's what they'd go for. If its using a myriad of moves based on different circumstances is the best, than that's also what should be gone for.

SakoHaruo
Mar 9, 2014, 05:01 PM
I always assumed it was fine being godmode in PvE.

I sure would love for someone to explain to me why we need balance in a F2P PvE game? There's no competition here. This ain't ESports. Where's the live twitch stream with competitive PSO2 filled with typical commentary? Does 1st place mean I get 10k - 1mil dollars and a sponsor? No? Well then... o3o

The only competitive play we have is IR EQ and 99% of you gives no fucks about IR EQ. There is no competitive scene for PSO2. Hell, look at how many of you post in the SH TA thread. You want balance, but you don't even tryhard? fuck outta here. :wacko:

Sanguine2009
Mar 9, 2014, 05:02 PM
well yeah im not denying that a good player will do better as a braver than say a fighter just that playing braver will automatically make someone who is not skilled skilled

skill =/= raw class strength is what im saying. a skilled player is skilled whether they play braver or some other class though they are likely more effective as a braver

Rakurai
Mar 9, 2014, 05:06 PM
I find it pretty sad that they thought Zonde was OP and gave it one of the only nerfs that's ever happened since the game's release, when they should've buffed every tech up to its level instead.

The Walrus
Mar 9, 2014, 05:14 PM
http://i.imgur.com/YuUTevZ.png

Dnd
Mar 9, 2014, 05:16 PM
Hell, look at how many of you post in the SH TA thread. You want balance, but you don't even tryhard? fuck outta here. :wacko:

Whats the point of trying hard on another class when a worse geared braver can just go shunka shunka and beat the time without much effort? :wacko:

SakoHaruo
Mar 9, 2014, 05:36 PM
Whats the point of trying hard on another class when a worse geared braver can just go shunka shunka and beat the time without much effort? :wacko:

What's the point of balancing a F2P PvE game when there is no one to compete against my shunka shunka? :wacko:

Sega no moe TA quest. Sega no gameplay. Sega no listen to the competitive community. therefore, Sega no balance classes. That's a lot of sega right thurr.

jiasu73
Mar 9, 2014, 05:44 PM
I always assumed it was fine being godmode in PvE.

I sure would love for someone to explain to me why we need balance in a F2P PvE game? There's no competition here. This ain't ESports. Where's the live twitch stream with competitive PSO2 filled with typical commentary? Does 1st place mean I get 10k - 1mil dollars and a sponsor? No? Well then... o3o

The only competitive play we have is IR EQ and 99% of you gives no fucks about IR EQ. There is no competitive scene for PSO2. Hell, look at how many of you post in the SH TA thread. You want balance, but you don't even tryhard? fuck outta here. :wacko:

For PvE i believe balance is important for a few reasons.
1. Balance encourages variety in groups
With a balanced game more people are encouraged to play other classes since they can play the class that fits each player's preferred play-style without the worry of holding other people back or feeling like you arn't contributing
2. Variety helps keep the game interesting
When the majority of playing is playing a select class the game becomes less interesting a sense that one style of game-play is conquering over the others and it starts to become the only thing that you see from other players. People like playing strong classes so people would tend to move to what is viewed as stronger.
3. With balance there will be less exclusion and people wanting to exclude x/y class combos.

Personally i believe PSO2 does a good job in keeping the main themes of classes relevant ( melee, tech, shoot) at least for team play. For "try-hard" play all of the classes themes presence are needed or at least can compete well for succeeding for the fastest times. Solo is a whole different story though.

gigawuts
Mar 9, 2014, 05:48 PM
I always assumed it was fine being godmode in PvE.:wacko:

It is.

All PVE needs is to add shit, then tweak it to make it more balanced again when players use and abuse it, then add more shit later.

Sega only really fails on the "tweak it to make it more balanced" part.

If it was PVP you'd need considerable playtesting with players of varying skill and experience. But in PVE? Psh. Throw shit into the pot and stir it around, let the players figure it out.

I don't get all the buttrage people are having.

Shadowth117
Mar 9, 2014, 05:54 PM
I find it pretty sad that they thought Zonde was OP and gave it one of the only nerfs that's ever happened since the game's release, when they should've buffed every tech up to its level instead.

Well keep in mind this was before the hunter fury stance buff... which happened within a month of that nerf if I recall correctly. At the time it was justified, but it would have made more sense to leave zonde alone and THEN add the fury buff. From there, other techs could have been adjusted.

As it stands, it hurt zonde more than they may have intended since the extra damage gained from hitting a weak point was reduced along with the upper hitbox which did more damage.

deahamlet
Mar 9, 2014, 06:32 PM
Unless your gear really sucks/your fury skills aren't maxed, Hatou is better dps than Shunka on quite a number of bosses... especially with WB up and 150PP for 5 consecutive PAs.

But the PA requires good positioning, aiming (TPS) and being at distance to avoid it's damage reduction.


Not using tps so that may be one issue but I am a hybrid braver with dex mag so there is also that.

SakoHaruo
Mar 9, 2014, 06:50 PM
snip

Everything you said sounds good, but like I said, there's no competitive scene here. Forcing people to play your way (I support your vision) would just scare off the community now. It's too late for change, especially when casual players have put hard work and dedication into a certain OP class. Yes, the Hardcore will just move on and adapt to whatever changes Sega make to the game in the near future. No, the casual will not do the same. I stop complaining about how easy this game is along time ago and just accepted PSO2 for what it is. A game about making friends, dressing up waifus and killing stuff... sometimes. If you want competitive/smart play PSO2 is not the game for you. It's very casual and try hards continue to push for hardcore content which will never happen. Sega might put out something interesting later down the line, but by then it'll probably be too late.

Zorafim
Mar 9, 2014, 06:57 PM
I sure would love for someone to explain to me why we need balance in a F2P PvE game?

Does this need to be explained? Why play a hunter when you could be a braver? Why hunt weapons when you could increase your damage by a greater amount in less time by switching to braver? Why invite any class, when you could invite a braver?
Do you really not see the problem with this?

Of course, that might not be enough for you. Maybe it's fine to be a less useful class. Well, why do two runs of tower defense, when you could invite bravers and do three? Why spend fifty minutes doing TAs, when you could have a party of bravers and do it in thirty? Why join a random group in an EQ, when you could get more exp by partying up with bravers?

Still nothing? Maybe you don't mind getting less rewards from a mission. Don't you do that mission over some other mission because it has greater rewards? In that case, why bother doing that mission? And if you don't care about that mission, why bother doing anything?


It is.

It's not. Playing a pathetically easy game is not fun. I want to think when I'm playing, and build my skill. I want to be punished for using the wrong PA at the wrong time, and rewarded for playing intelligently. Instead, I run around in a circle and bathe in yellow numbers.
This is why I started those boss kill videos. Getting a successful run is a huge challenge, and (barring BS insta-kills that seem to becoming more common) fun to do. And this is why I don't play anything else. I don't see the point in doing anything, especially considering anything I get (be it experience or rares) will be easier to get in a few months anyway.
I'm not playing, because there's nothing to challenge me.


I stop complaining about how easy this game is along time ago and just accepted PSO2 for what it is. A game about making friends, dressing up waifus and killing stuff... sometimes.

And, this is a good point. Like most Sega games, what PSO2 does well, it does very well. It's just always a shame that they could (seemingly) easily make this a fun combat game, considering they have the basework to make it happen. PSO2 was fun when you were the same strength as the mobs you fought. And it's fun when you're facing tough bosses. But the playerbase is quickly realizing there's no reason to do any of this, and just sit around enjoying the wonderful chat group that it is while ignoring the fundamentally great combat system that's rusting from misuse.

Sacrificial
Mar 9, 2014, 07:22 PM
it won't be nerfed, unless some people find a trait that "was not supposed to be there or do" the only thing i can imagine is the most common idea: the 30-40 pp swap. it's power is intended imo, sega wanted to great a powerfull hack n slash as katana's are often portrayed.

The only two nerf's I can remember are:

zonde, sega said its hit box was to wide, resulting in it being AoE instead ST and hitting the weakspot 99% of the time. But instead only its impact range they nerfed power too(on top of not hitting weakspot)im no fo expert so this all can be bs

Fury stance: when Fury got buffed from adding 150ish S-atk and R-atk stats to 1.# multipliers. after 1-2 weeks
1.3 multiplier for Ranged dmg went down too 1.1.
ra-hu's (hu-ra's) got unintentionally strong with the then new released PA Additional Bullet for the Gunslash. to the point that bosses died within 30 seconds.

final_attack
Mar 9, 2014, 07:41 PM
Personally, I don't think Shunka need a nerf ...... depending on how you play the game though

Well, as someone who's playing in tps mode, I find Shunka already very ..... situational :wacko: So far, I find it nice in Nab 2 - Gwanahda, and boxed Fordoransa(?) before Vol in Sanctum TA ...... it might be nice for Vibras's rear part once stunned, but haven't tried that ^^;

Other than that ... no, I don't use Shunka. It made me go through target enemy frequently :wacko:

I mostly Hatou + Kanran since it's easier to use and safer (easier to use guard/counter). PP regeneration on Katana got buffed too, right?

pkemr4
Mar 9, 2014, 07:49 PM
http://i.imgur.com/YuUTevZ.png

been looking for that picture for a while...

jiasu73
Mar 9, 2014, 07:49 PM
Everything you said sounds good, but like I said, there's no competitive scene here. Forcing people to play your way (I support your vision) would just scare off the community now. It's too late for change, especially when casual players have put hard work and dedication into a certain OP class. Yes, the Hardcore will just move on and adapt to whatever changes Sega make to the game in the near future. No, the casual will not do the same. I stop complaining about how easy this game is along time ago and just accepted PSO2 for what it is. A game about making friends, dressing up waifus and killing stuff... sometimes. If you want competitive/smart play PSO2 is not the game for you. It's very casual and try hards continue to push for hardcore content which will never happen. Sega might put out something interesting later down the line, but by then it'll probably be too late.

I would say that the player base and scene is there( although mainly jp ofcourse) for the competitive scene just that the content is really limited and what is being pushed out doesn't support it. There's a somewhat large community on nico and 2ch where players compare times/make suggestions for strategies for things like TD and TA. When the set TA IRs happened a good amount of teams participated and times would always be compared to see which group managed to get the fastest time out of all the servers. It exists, just that with little content offered there's only so much you can do.

Tenlade
Mar 9, 2014, 08:09 PM
Isnt there another Grand Prix coming up? I could imagine sega getting a lot of shit if a team of nothing but gunners and bravers find they are getting much faster times then anyone else.

milranduil
Mar 9, 2014, 08:12 PM
Last time, iirc, it was basically RAs and FIs that were winning. Same story, different characters.

EvilMag
Mar 9, 2014, 08:15 PM
That was only because the other classes got shafted in terms of gear. Hunters and Fighters got like Lambda Aristien and Failnaught...Gunners got Lambda Radiegles and forces got...boogy board rod. lol

infiniteeverlasting
Mar 9, 2014, 08:33 PM
Isnt there another Grand Prix coming up? I could imagine sega getting a lot of shit if a team of nothing but gunners and bravers find they are getting much faster times then anyone else.

LOL this. i can't wait to see this happen. curious in sega's reaction towards it.

milranduil
Mar 9, 2014, 08:35 PM
I'm sure it will be something equivalent to: "Oh people are using Asagiri for travelling? That's interesting!"

EvilMag
Mar 9, 2014, 08:36 PM
"wait, people are rolling then following it with a JA?"

infiniteeverlasting
Mar 9, 2014, 08:41 PM
XD i barely use shunka, idk wats the huge uproar about it. In the end its horrible at mobbing unless they're all packed together. As a level capped braver who has never bought AC and never used premium and constantly doing TA's im not stupid enough to spam it (i cant afford to die against the caterdrans and quartz dragons when i hit those sanctum runs) I still use sakura - endo and kanran wayyyy more than shunka. I like the sound of spamming shunka tho.... it just makes braver look like the biggest douchebag class ^^

SociableTyrannosaur
Mar 9, 2014, 08:53 PM
Does this need to be explained? Why play a hunter when you could be a braver? Why hunt weapons when you could increase your damage by a greater amount in less time by switching to braver? Why invite any class, when you could invite a braver?
Do you really not see the problem with this?

Of course, that might not be enough for you. Maybe it's fine to be a less useful class. Well, why do two runs of tower defense, when you could invite bravers and do three? Why spend fifty minutes doing TAs, when you could have a party of bravers and do it in thirty? Why join a random group in an EQ, when you could get more exp by partying up with bravers?

Still nothing? Maybe you don't mind getting less rewards from a mission. Don't you do that mission over some other mission because it has greater rewards? In that case, why bother doing that mission? And if you don't care about that mission, why bother doing anything?

It's not. Playing a pathetically easy game is not fun. I want to think when I'm playing, and build my skill. I want to be punished for using the wrong PA at the wrong time, and rewarded for playing intelligently. Instead, I run around in a circle and bathe in yellow numbers.
This is why I started those boss kill videos. Getting a successful run is a huge challenge, and (barring BS insta-kills that seem to becoming more common) fun to do. And this is why I don't play anything else. I don't see the point in doing anything, especially considering anything I get (be it experience or rares) will be easier to get in a few months anyway.
I'm not playing, because there's nothing to challenge me.



And, this is a good point. Like most Sega games, what PSO2 does well, it does very well. It's just always a shame that they could (seemingly) easily make this a fun combat game, considering they have the basework to make it happen. PSO2 was fun when you were the same strength as the mobs you fought. And it's fun when you're facing tough bosses. But the playerbase is quickly realizing there's no reason to do any of this, and just sit around enjoying the wonderful chat group that it is while ignoring the fundamentally great combat system that's rusting from misuse.



Well that's also just your own values. In warframe, there's a frame(class) called Trinity which can make the entire party invulnerable for 10 seconds at a cost of 100 energy. If you know the game you know this would not be easy to sustain so you couldn't spam it. However with the right mods and gear, this unspamable skill lasts 24 seconds costs 25 energy and comes out about as fast as you can press the "4" key. This with another mod that lets you regenerate energy makes this skill entirely sustainable so that your group basically can't die. Ask yourself how many people say "keep trinity out of my party", Or think anything other than a solid blessing build is something you should expect from trinity. A lot of people get off on being OP just as long as you had to earn your way to that OPness and some people don't even care about earning it.

Naizuya Tatzubani
Mar 9, 2014, 10:23 PM
Not gonna sit here and lie about my Shunka spamming. But, its real usefulness really comes from hitting them weakpoints.

Its like Braver went from great subclass to DPS machine in the span of a single update, but, I just hope they release something that can make the Katana more than just a Shunka machine.

Same goes for a few weapons actually, like Twin Daggers. Awesome weapon, but outside of BS and SD Lvl 16, I can't see much personally. I'm not really deep in the meta like alot of you folks are .3.

Kikikiki
Mar 10, 2014, 12:32 AM
I still use sakura - endo and kanran wayyyy more than shunka.

Do people not know of the existence of Hatou Rindou or something? Or is positioning too hard now?

LordKaiser
Mar 10, 2014, 12:38 AM
Shunka is a pain to use... It gets mi killed on huge mobs from PSE bursts. In quests like the Dark Falz e-quest I prefer to use the Majinken like PA (I forgot the name.)

jooozek
Mar 10, 2014, 12:51 AM
Shunka is a pain to use... It gets mi killed on huge mobs from PSE bursts. In quests like the Dark Falz e-quest I prefer to use the Majinken like PA (I forgot the name.)

what the fuck is majinken :-?

SociableTyrannosaur
Mar 10, 2014, 12:53 AM
Talking about Hatou

Daiyousei
Mar 10, 2014, 01:02 AM
Not gonna sit here and lie about my Shunka spamming. But, its real usefulness really comes from hitting them weakpoints.

Its like Braver went from great subclass to DPS machine in the span of a single update, but, I just hope they release something that can make the Katana more than just a Shunka machine.

Same goes for a few weapons actually, like Twin Daggers. Awesome weapon, but outside of BS and SD Lvl 16, I can't see much personally. I'm not really deep in the meta like alot of you folks are .3.

You can add Facet Folia to that, good damage and easy height maitenance against bosses, keeping that twin dagger gear going.

MidCap
Mar 10, 2014, 01:09 AM
I think the class imbalance is intentional. It fosters a sense of "urgency" in skilled players to level the current "flavor of the month" class, which hopefully results in additional Premium subscriptions, character slot purchases, and Mag purchases. I feel like this game's problems exist solely to manipulate the playerbase under the guise of Sega's incompetence. Heck, even the difficulty of obtaining sufficient capsules in SH AQs seems intentional. It's yet another way to keep players starved for resources.

I just read my post and decided to quit the game. I really dislike being manipulated, and I become upset when I feel like the developer is more concerned with manipulation than good craftsmanship.

I can't play a game if I don't trust the developer is ethical. A game shouldn't abuse the psychological well-being of players by subtly manipulating the "action for reward" exchange that is presumed to exist at its core.

Sega knows that many of us grew up with "offline" games in which the true completion could be achieved in a reasonable amount of time. PSO2 appears reasonable at the start, but later manipulates you to feel that you must "keep up" with X, Y, and Z to stay relevant. The game is truly abusive, and punishes you severely for taking your own path.

I even think the skill trees exist only to give the player a false sense of choice, and that many of the offerings were intentionally made sub-par with the hopes that players would "fail" on their first skill tree attempts and spend AC to "make it right."

When you feel like you're being manipulated, you start to get really pissed off.

I feel like, at every turn, this game impedes the progress of players in an obnoxious and obvious way, and hopes that the fun elements of its in-game combat system and decent scenery will stave off the bleakness long enough to squeeze a few bucks out of the player. That's bullshit, and I've had enough.

Where did the fun go? And why did I allow this game, which was designed by a bunch of greedy assholes, to turn me into such a cynic? Fuck those guys.

On a human level, outside of gaming or any specific craft: It's wrong to craft something that preys on human weakness and produces no real joy. These game makers are on the same level as liars, thieves, and drug dealers (or worse).

There will be pain for awhile. I'll start to feel this gnawing sensation that I'm "falling behind" when I don't download the next patch and keep playing, but hopefully after a few weeks of playing real games; games that were designed to bring joy and fulfillment; I will be cured.

Kondibon
Mar 10, 2014, 01:12 AM
what the fuck is majinken :-?It's a signature move from the Tales series, that (usually) involves swinging a sword to make a shockwave. When Hatou came out it was noted how much the PA looks like it (even though they're functionally different).
http://youtu.be/RsWS93ltZ3c?t=7s

Ratazana
Mar 10, 2014, 01:15 AM
I think the class imbalances are intentional. They create a sense of "urgency" in skilled players to level the current "flavor of the month" class, which hopefully results in additional Premium subscriptions. I always feel like this game's problems exist solely to manipulate the playerbase under the guise of Sega's incompetence. Heck, even the difficulty of obtaining sufficient capsules in SH AQs seems intentional. It's yet another way to keep players starved for resources. I just read my post and decided to quit the game. I really dislike being manipulated, and I become upset when I feel like the developer is more concerned with manipulation than good craftsmanship.

I can't play a game if I don't trust the developer is ethical.

Woah!! Is that... critical thinking?! Congratulations sir, I tip my hat to you. I really mean it, few people seem to get it.

Kondibon
Mar 10, 2014, 01:19 AM
Woah!! Is that... critical thinking?! Congratulations sir, I tip my hat to you. I really mean it, few people seem to get it.I doubt the class imbalances have anything to do with it. They're too random. I totally agree with the rest though. Sega is being super manipulative, you can see it with things like the drop rates, incomplete updates (remember when hardmode came out and there was no normal mode tundra? And again with SHAQs though I might be too hard on them for that one). The class imbalances however just seem like shitty balancing.

Sakarisei
Mar 10, 2014, 01:23 AM
SEGA nerfing Shunka? Oh, that must be a dream, lol.

Ratazana
Mar 10, 2014, 01:29 AM
The way they make some things stupidly OP does steer the players in a particular direction. New chars, mags, trees, gear, does bring SEGA more money. They also force people to spend time leveling new shit, getting new pas, etc.

Sega has been doing this for a long time. I think it hard to believe that they keep hitting the jackpot out of dumb luck.

Edit: Both Gu and Br who got huge buffs were the least played class at the time.

Kondibon
Mar 10, 2014, 01:54 AM
The way they make some things stupidly OP does steer the players in a particular direction. New chars, mags, trees, gear, does bring SEGA more money. They also force people to spend time leveling new shit, getting new pas, etc.

Sega has been doing this for a long time. I think it hard to believe that they keep hitting the jackpot out of dumb luck.

Edit: Both Gu and Br who got huge buffs were the least played class at the time.None of that has anything to do with the imbalances because if they wanted people to level new shit then they'd make sure to keep everything appealing so people keep leveling even after capping the classes they main. Instead, they try and buff something to make it equal to everything else, and overstep.

For clarification though, I'm not saying they aren't buffing underpowered/mid-tier classes to get people to play them. That's a given, EVERY mmo company does that (as part of more extensive balancing at the very least). I'm simply saying that they likely aren't grossly imbalancing everything on purpose. I say that because they also tried the same thing they did to gunner to force (with the talis skill) and ended up pre nerfing it because, as far as I know, people complained before it came out.
It's like Sega is too afraid to nerf anything, so they just create an internal arms race where classes keep getting buffs without any major nerfs in an attempt to "balance" everything. The games biggest issue right now seems to be power creep.

If they wanted to keep everyone leveling then they'd buff everything, not just specific classes because all that's gonna do is make people either quit because the class they play sucks, or move to the other classes without finishing the one they were on before. So there's got to be some sort of incompetence SOMEWHERE.

All that said, there ARE things they're doing to manipulate people, always sticking new PAs/weapons/etc in the newest content for instance. The whole balancing PAs by making certain levels get 3x their previous levels damage thing, instead of changing them across the levels.

EDIT: And the drop/grind/affix rates obviously.

BlueCast Boy
Mar 10, 2014, 02:00 AM
What they should do if not on damage output make it less vaible boost shunka's pp cost or something this also same goes for GU's dive roll skill but knowing SEGA chances can be sliming . Seriously thou on SH AQ pt there almost all GU and BR partying which leads me discourage on using my FO and FI class.

Kondibon
Mar 10, 2014, 02:06 AM
What they should do if not on damage output make it less vaible boost shunka's pp cost or something this also same goes for GU's dive roll skill but knowing SEGA chances can be sliming . Seriously thou on SH AQ pt there almost all GU and BR partying which leads me discourage on using my FO and FI class.Honestly, I'm fine with shunka's damage being so high. As people have said, it's not amazing for mobbing without zondeel, and WITH zondeel, pretty much anything is amazing.

So yes, I think it needs a higher PP cost. Like 40-50 pp for the whole thing. MAYBE the last swing shouldn't hit twice.

The s roll thing just needs a lower multiplier. +100% makes it all or nothing, when without it, gunner honestly isn't that weak. Gunner just needs a slight boost to it's base PA damage, not a +100% damage on flips that discourages the very combo system they bothered to force it to use. :I

Ratazana
Mar 10, 2014, 02:25 AM
If they wanted to keep everyone leveling then they'd buff everything, not just specific classes because all that's gonna do is make people either quit because the class they play sucks, or move to the other classes without finishing the one they were on before. So there's got to be some sort of incompetence SOMEWHERE.

Buffing everything is bad because it causes fragmentation which is harder to manage and people would just stick to their pet classes. There would be no incentive to start a new class from scratch.

People moving to other classes before finishing another isn't bad at all. They already spent the money. Time to spend more money.

People quitting mostly affect small people. The people invested in the game (less than 1% of players generate 50% of pso2 revenue) will just play along.

I'm sure there is incompetence going on but it's their game. Ask anyone with a solid knowledge of game mechanics what kind of effect would JA sroll or shunka would have and they would tell you: OP. Some of the staff are hardcore players that have more knowledge about the game than any theorycrafter. No way they would have missed it.

Edit: Maybe someone who can make decisions wanted to use gunner or braver? If you had the power to make gameplay changes, would you? What I'm trying to say is never attribute to stupidity something that can be explained by malice.

Kondibon
Mar 10, 2014, 02:55 AM
Buffing everything is bad because it causes fragmentation which is harder to manage and people would just stick to their pet classes. There would be no incentive to start a new class from scratch.

People moving to other classes before finishing another isn't bad at all. They already spent the money. Time to spend more money.

People quitting mostly affect small people. The people invested in the game (less than 1% of players generate 50% of pso2 revenue) will just play along.

I'm sure there is incompetence going on but it's their game. Ask anyone with a solid knowledge of game mechanics what kind of effect would JA sroll or shunka would have and they would tell you: OP. Some of the staff are hardcore players that have more knowledge about the game than any theorycrafter. No way they would have missed it.Buffing everything IS bad, didn't you see my spiel about powercreep...? That's what buffing everything is, powercreep.

That said though, your arguments are just as valid as mine, so I concede. The only thing that's important is that they're doing it, and I don't think it matters why unless we plan on doing something about it. It was dumb of me to push the issue. Sorry.

SociableTyrannosaur
Mar 10, 2014, 02:57 AM
Yeah that's not true. They nerfed the hell out of Fury stance for ranged attacks less than a week after they made that first update. imagine that damage from prenerfed fury on gunner now. Not every decision they make is as calculated as you think.

Ratazana
Mar 10, 2014, 03:56 AM
I didn't say every decision is calculated. Gu and Br looks suspect though.

Stupidity in others is an attractive explanation, particularly if you think you’re rather a clever fellow yourself.

UnLucky
Mar 10, 2014, 04:15 AM
So how come Ilfoie costs more PP, hits fewer enemies, does less damage, takes longer to execute, and does not have super armor?

Talis Bonus and the Wand Lover change did nothing to make either of the classes OP at all.

GALEFORCE
Mar 10, 2014, 04:49 AM
Ilfoie was clearly meant to make friend partners OP.

isCasted
Mar 10, 2014, 06:04 AM
terrible truth

I have nothing to add to this, it's very sad situation. From an RPG point game has gone as low as possible, we all realise that this game is terrible in almost every factor, but... There's something that keeps us playing, be it atmosphere, or nostalgy, or core mechanics, or dress-up (which isn't perfect either). As long as people telling me what to do don't go radical ("Everything but Gu and Br sucks!") and their sayings can be classified as advices, I will enjoy playing this game how I want.

As for "newbies doing wrong decisions on skill trees", there are always forums and people like me who can tell them to remake their characters until it's too late... this game is about communication after all, isn't it?

Maybe I should feel sorry that people like me let this game flow like shit on water (understand that phrase the way you want).

gigawuts
Mar 10, 2014, 08:48 AM
I think the class imbalance is intentional. It fosters a sense of "urgency" in skilled players to level the current "flavor of the month" class, which hopefully results in additional Premium subscriptions, character slot purchases, and Mag purchases. I feel like this game's problems exist solely to manipulate the playerbase under the guise of Sega's incompetence. Heck, even the difficulty of obtaining sufficient capsules in SH AQs seems intentional. It's yet another way to keep players starved for resources.

I just read my post and decided to quit the game. I really dislike being manipulated, and I become upset when I feel like the developer is more concerned with manipulation than good craftsmanship.

I can't play a game if I don't trust the developer is ethical. A game shouldn't abuse the psychological well-being of players by subtly manipulating the "action for reward" exchange that is presumed to exist at its core.

Sega knows that many of us grew up with "offline" games in which the true completion could be achieved in a reasonable amount of time. PSO2 appears reasonable at the start, but later manipulates you to feel that you must "keep up" with X, Y, and Z to stay relevant. The game is truly abusive, and punishes you severely for taking your own path.

I even think the skill trees exist only to give the player a false sense of choice, and that many of the offerings were intentionally made sub-par with the hopes that players would "fail" on their first skill tree attempts and spend AC to "make it right."

When you feel like you're being manipulated, you start to get really pissed off.

I feel like, at every turn, this game impedes the progress of players in an obnoxious and obvious way, and hopes that the fun elements of its in-game combat system and decent scenery will stave off the bleakness long enough to squeeze a few bucks out of the player. That's bullshit, and I've had enough.

Where did the fun go? And why did I allow this game, which was designed by a bunch of greedy assholes, to turn me into such a cynic? Fuck those guys.

On a human level, outside of gaming or any specific craft: It's wrong to craft something that preys on human weakness and produces no real joy. These game makers are on the same level as liars, thieves, and drug dealers (or worse).

There will be pain for awhile. I'll start to feel this gnawing sensation that I'm "falling behind" when I don't download the next patch and keep playing, but hopefully after a few weeks of playing real games; games that were designed to bring joy and fulfillment; I will be cured.

I don't know if you're being a cynic so much as being a realist.

Businesses will try to manipulate you, even if only with ads trying to convince you to buy their product. It's the nature of the beast.

Not everything functions quite on a F2P game level, but you're entirely right - this game functions on manipulation, old tried and true skinner box-type strategies and newage stuff as well. They get rid of a few to make themselves look good in the eyes of newcomers (leveling is easy, doesn't require paying) in lieu of forcefeeding other stranglehold tactics steroids until they're the incredible hulk (hi dudu, falz 11 & 12*s, etc.).

Now you're just seeing the world as it really is: Yes, pretty much everyone really is out to get you. Well, not you. Just your money.

Chdata
Mar 10, 2014, 08:57 AM
This game seems to be unbalanced in waves. I doubt Shunka will be nerfed. But still, other things will be buffed until Shunka doesn't seem that great.

Which, honestly seems kinda hard to believe looking at it. It does ridiculous single target damage, is quick, and darts straight to your target. Even if its damage was terrible, I'd still have it on my palette.

Yeah, it's exactly what I've been thinking too - Sega will just eventually release something else that's way OP.

I was thinking, a new sword PA where you thrust it in the ground and it does Dragon Ex's "spike from the ground" thing on every enemy nearby.

And each hit does 75k damage ---> zondeel trash mobs onto boss ---> hit 750k on boss and kill all the mobs.

Dashing towards the enemy? Ha! Weak.


I also keep expecting that shunka should take like namegid PP costs.

DJcooltrainer
Mar 10, 2014, 09:05 AM
I have nothing to add to this, it's very sad situation. From an RPG point game has gone as low as possible, we all realise that this game is terrible in almost every factor, but... There's something that keeps us playing, be it atmosphere, or nostalgy, or core mechanics, or dress-up (which isn't perfect either). As long as people telling me what to do don't go radical ("Everything but Gu and Br sucks!") and their sayings can be classified as advices, I will enjoy playing this game how I want.

As for "newbies doing wrong decisions on skill trees", there are always forums and people like me who can tell them to remake their characters until it's too late... this game is about communication after all, isn't it?

Maybe I should feel sorry that people like me let this game flow like shit on water (understand that phrase the way you want).

Is it really terrible in every factor, though? Would we all really still be playing it if it was? Are we all really just blind Phantasy Star fanatics? There's obviously many redeeming qualities in the game, even if it does have it's problems.

I agree that everyone should be able to play and enjoy this game the way THEY want to. I wish Sega would make it easier to re-spec your skill trees without paying for it. It might encourage people to test new builds more often, instead of just using the same few.

gigawuts
Mar 10, 2014, 09:13 AM
They should just add the ability for PAs and techs to charge for more PP during the attack.

Make Shunka cost 30 to activate, +10 for each swing. No more PP? No more swings.

This could be applied to a few PAs that need tweaks, actually. Shift Period feels too powerful for just being 30 PP. 30 to activate + 15 for the blast sounds right.

This is also a really good solution to the problem with uncharged techs costing the same PP as charged techs. Make it so starting a tech costs 50-75% of the amount, and then to finish the charge costs the rest. You can't finish the charge until you have the PP, so without PP Revival or Killing Bonus that means you never get to finish the charge. Activating a 60 PP Namegid would cost 30, and finishing it would cost another 30 PP. Activating a 20 PP Foie would cost 10 PP, and finishing it would cost another 10 PP. It would change the balance on a couple slow charging moves and let you cast Zonde with 3 PP and the right build, but I don't see an issue with that. Then tweak Sazan a bit in some way because that would be a bit crazy.

Macmaxi
Mar 10, 2014, 09:14 AM
It allows us to appreciate balance in other games more?... just joking. It's like the cash shop topic. Once you sat through a game with the worst kind of cash shop, you go to other games and be amazed by every single one of them.


Funny enough, having played for around 100 hours on my first character now, i decided to try out shunka on my 52 Hu (switching subclass to Br) and because i basically went with a "wrong" spec (full tank) it was quite suprising that an +0 all Class Katana could keep up with my fully grinded / extended Sword with Overend in terms of damage (non serious claim, just rough damage numbers on a few mobs).


To be honest, i kinda compare it to people programming bots for their MMO's to play the game for them. If you like cheesing through the game because you want to have a high level character to show off with(?) then by all means they should go for it.


Playing for the experience is what i personally do, and why i like playing games for myself most of the time. Even if there are horribly unbalanced parties you are getting thrown into, most of the game can be played by your rules and i think that's the thing why it's not such a huge thing when the game is only PvE. Feeling like you are forced to play a certain way in a game like PSO2 is really a bit your fault. I'm sure there are people out there who appreciate every bit of creativity you put into your character, even if it's not that effective, after all most of the people agree here, that the game doesn't need minmaxing to clear all of the content right?


I agree it's a bit discouraging, that your numbers are only fraction of the numbers of others, but in the end they are only numbers.


A bit ago i battled a ringshada in a solo quest for about 1 whole hour because my spec really is just flat HP bonus and guard stance upgrades (with a few points in Iron Will and never (gonna) give (you) up because it sounded cool), and it was intense for me especially when i ran out of healing items (still beginner here!).


Of course it all sounds stupid for other people, but thats why they are other people and though we often look for acceptance and recognition in these type of games, i think sometimes it's helpful to shift your view to other things rather than just numbers. Yesterday i wasted another hour of my life fighting the turtle boss guy with +1 Eight Ounces while streaming and laughing my ass off with a friend, because it looked so hilarious how a naked Cast punches an 5-story high turtle in the neck.


Maybe that's overthinking it a bit, but this topic has been gnawing at me for quite a bit as well.

Aine
Mar 10, 2014, 09:46 AM
They should just add the ability for PAs and techs to charge for more PP during the attack.

Make Shunka cost 30 to activate, +10 for each swing. No more PP? No more swings.

isn't that just the tiered PA system they had before but replaced with "original combos (lol)"

gigawuts
Mar 10, 2014, 09:49 AM
isn't that just the tiered PA system they had before but replaced with "original combos (lol)"

I dunno. I don't think so? Maybe. I don't really remember it.

Either way, it shouldn't cost 60 or 100 PP to activate it if you want to use just the first slash, and it shouldn't cost 30 if you want to use all 3 extra slashes.

Chdata
Mar 10, 2014, 09:51 AM
that mind set is flawed, simply using shunka does not automatically make someone good or skilled. while yes given 2 players of a similar skill level a braver will probably out perform another melee class
a good player using fighter or something similar can out perform a bad player using shunka. does that make the good fighter a worse player skill wise simply for not using braver?
not really, it simply means they are good at getting the most out of a weaker class.
skill has little to do with the class you play but rather how you use it.


Just using shunka because you know it's op doesn't make you a skilled/pro player.


Testing various PAs and then finding out that that's the one you can DPS with most, and then learning how to effectively use it in the situations it's useful in without dying, is being a pro player. A pro player will abuse it like Inazuma said, because it happens to be the strong DPSer out there.

But a pro player doesn't just stick to one thing like that if there really are other options better for other situations.

You have to not look at how much total damage you can do to anything or whether or not you can one hit a single or 3 mobs for example. Shunka can probably kill 3-4 mobs in one slash before you dash around to another, whereas you could spam Kanran a few times to kill a whole bubble of 9 mobs around you in less time, if you have the PP.

A better example is shift period vs infinity fire. Shift period is great against groups of mobs, but it feels absolutely terrible against a single mob, so I use inf fire instead.

OR even better, shift period vs heel stab. Shift period works better for bigger groups of mobs, and I'd use heel stab more against small groups of giant mobs.

Another example comes from Team Fortress 2's scout. The Scout class has a Scattergun (6 shot shotgun) and Force-A-Nature (Two rapid shot shotgun with knockback).

Scattergun shoots its 6 shots at the same rate between each shot, and you have to reload 6 times.
FaN shoots 2 shots at a much faster rate than the scattergun but has lower dmg, and reloads both shots in one reload.

When considering the balance between the two, one can note that the FaN can shoot 6 shots in the same time the scattergun can due to its fast reload compared to scattergun's fire rate, and for this reason some people say that the FaN is almost as good as the scattergun which is considered to be the best Scout primary.

But there's one thing I never ever see people talk about: Sure the overall "total dps" is similar if you look at it that way, but you shouldn't be looking at how fast you can deal 1000 damage. Why? Most classes only have 125 health, so you should look at how fast you can do 125 damage. Because the FaN can shoot so fast, I consider it more powerful for killing someone if you have the aim that can get both shots in with the knockback FaN does. More powerful for stinging a single target at least. There's less time for people to react cause you can shoot both shots at once. People rarely try to play FaN that way from what I can tell though.


As for Shunka, the balancing doesn't just matter for how well it does in the hardest level of gameplay. In VH where everything is really slow, the fact that it's just way more powerful than everything else you can use in VH aside from FO is pretty crazy. I think the fast dashing it gives between attacks is pretty useful too, I think if it didn't do so much damage it would be an interestingly balanced PA that you'd use for quickly moving around while attacking things without getting hit. My playstyle involves always moving randomly everywhere because if you're staying in one spot, eventually an enemy (even a player in PVP) is going to aim there while you're dancing in that same spot.

Aine
Mar 10, 2014, 09:56 AM
I dunno. I don't think so? Maybe. I don't really remember it.

Either way, it shouldn't cost 60 or 100 PP to activate it if you want to use just the first slash, and it shouldn't cost 30 if you want to use all 3 extra slashes.

I mean in the Portable games, you link parts of the PA together by pressing buttons and each part costs PP. Effectively the same thing.

gigawuts
Mar 10, 2014, 09:58 AM
I mean in the Portable games, you link parts of the PA together by pressing buttons and each part costs PP. Effectively the same thing.

That sounds pretty great to me, yeah. It couldn't be done for every PA, but a few would benefit from working this way.

Daiyousei
Mar 10, 2014, 10:03 AM
Remember the days of the FI/HU when everyone would go all 3 deadly archers? And when backhand smash came everyone started using that instead?

gigawuts
Mar 10, 2014, 10:06 AM
Unfortunately. I still wish they'd give us another button so we can palette swap on melee like techs & guns can AND still use guard/evade/etc.

What a horrible design oversight. I know they thought it was a good idea, but they clearly didn't playtest it enough.

UnLucky
Mar 10, 2014, 10:21 AM
Remember when the game first came out and you had three different PAs on your melee weapons, but thought it was kinda annoying not being able to use the PA you wanted, so you just filled all three slots with the same one and switched weapons on the fly?

Like, I dunno, day one in the beta?

Saffran
Mar 10, 2014, 10:48 AM
>so you just filled all three slots with the same one and switched weapons on the fly?

This. This is something that clearly wasn't supposed to happen. In their defense, when I first looked at the system I assumed it would be impossible to have the same PA in all 3 slots. I only learned it was possible when I got here and read the impressions of other players. And I still didn't do it, because it's stupid.

As someone whose Skill Tree is geared for equipment (long story short, I want 700 in all attacks, 500 dex and 606 in all defenses so my mag and skill tree suck) the game is actually quite challenging, and Shunka Shunran is a lifesaver. It's the only PA in the entire game taht allows me to clear some of the tests in XQ. (critical hit damage with Shunka is 15068, barely enough for the missions against Hunar)
However, it's only for me, and it's only because I'm otherwise so weak.
The game being so unbalanced and so forgiving with people simply putting everything into power, it must be really boring to you. I get all excited when I hear about the time attack videos with times I can't even comprehend, and then I watch them and the only secret is that instead of 1500Atk they have 2500 and they use macros to move around faster...

I actually only wanted to point out that Shunka will go though ceratin bosses or certain targets without hitting them (Zesh limbs for instance) and it's getting really annoying.

Rien
Mar 10, 2014, 11:03 AM
You can hit them if you use the side slash of shunka, but not all the time.

Aine
Mar 10, 2014, 11:54 AM
The idea of original combos was that PAs would work the same way as in the previous game except they would split the parts into individual PAs and players could string together their own combinations. Unfortunately, the designers didn't realize that with this kind of system people would just spam the strongest 'parts', making the system pointless and backfiring by making combat even more repetitive.

At some point in time the developers seem to have given up on the system themselves, making longer PAs with multiple parts.

gigawuts
Mar 10, 2014, 11:57 AM
Even without the multiple parts, the PAs stopped being about comboing when they added power moves like deadly archer and didn't nerf them or give bonuses for using them after other PAs.

On that note, I'd be really interested to see Fury Combo Up if it only worked on two different PAs in a row. I feel like that might have been the original intent, actually.