Fun project: Everything wrong with skill trees

[Rien]

As stated in another thread, I'd like to compile a list of everything wrong with every skill tree, ever.

So, when stating something wrong, follow this format:

Class:
Problem:

Of course, this is all about opinions, so when they clash we'll have to try and find a middle point.

Here's something to start:

Hunter:

Guard Stance Burn, Poison: Should be merged together, as well as Pretty Good, considering the SP on these skills just being 1. Hell, why not cure every status effect AND reduce total status effect time with activation of Guard Stance?
The entire Just Guard tree. We should automatically have these skills, including Just Counter.
Massive Hunter: It does too little too quick for too much sp. Either increase duration, increase effect, decrease sp, or all of the options combined.
Sword Gear, Wirelance Gear, Partisan Gear: Should not be tied to any stance tree.

Ranger:

Killing Bonus: Requires a range increase. It makes no sense a ranger would have such a skill that doesn't work at a long range.
The entire Trap tree has nobody spending points in them except for the one obscure guy every now and then. Remove them and make them purely ranger-main/sub-usable items.


Force:

Photon Flare: It barely lasts long enough for what it does. It should, at the very least, be three to four minutes. It also needs to be percentage based.
Photon Flare After Burst: Like Photon Flare, it needs to be percentage based. It also needs to last long enough to cover for Photon Flare's cooldown.
Photon Flare Advance: Like Photon Flare, it needs to be percentage based.
Charge PP Revival: This needs to get away from the Fire tree.


Fighter:

The Adrenaline skill. This would belong on the Techer tree.
Twin Dagger Gear, Double Saber Gear, Knuckle Gear: These should not be tied to any particular stances.

Gunner:

Aerial Advance boosts damage against enemies in the air. Considering Gunner's gameplay style, it should boost damage when the player is in the air.


Techer:

Position of the Territory PP Save skill. It should be after Territory Burst.


Braver:

Rare Mastery Braver gives 30 ability instead of 30 striking/ranged attack. We understand that it's Braver, but with the damage variance of 10/11 star weapons 30 ability is not needed for the most part.



Total problem count so far: 14.

[Macman]

Hunter: The entire right side of the tree should be 5 SP not 10 SP, also with very little prerequisites.

Force: For fucks sake make photon flare a stance like everyone else's push-button-for-double-damage skills.

[Angelo]

Why would Adrenaline belong on the Techter tree?

It's worded funny, but it basically means Shifta and Deband that is cast on you lasts longer. For example if you have Adrenaline and someone casts Shifta on the party, their buff will wear off before yours does.

Massive Hunter needs to be seriously looked at. It's trying to be a 'panic button' skill that other MMOs have, but failing completely. 10SP for a skill that reduces damage by 25% for 25 seconds? C'mon now. It should, with 10SP reduce damage by 75% for 30 seconds and then have a super long cooldown.

Warcry needs to not have it's cooldown reset if you flinch trying to activate it. It's cooldown should also be a lot shorter. Also at 10SP it takes hate priority for 30 seconds and has a 30 second cooldown. In theory it sounds like you can draw hate 100% of the time, but in MPAs where a large group can be mowed down in 10 or 15 seconds, or less when nobody else has to worry about dodging attacks. Maybe a 10 second cooldown and it draws hate for 30 seconds? It's not like drawing hate is some game breaking mechanic; it encourages teamwork, I don't know why they're so stingy about it.

ALL skills that add flat values as bonuses (+50 as opposed to +2%) need to be looked at. The higher the level cap is raised the more arbitrary these numbers become.

[Gardios]

Just... just remake everything that isn't Braver. And Fighter, maybe.

[Arksenth]

Techer: Literally everything.

Worst skill tree. Ever.

[Rien]

Be more specific. Like, I know the entire techer and hunter tree is flawed as hell. I just want to see it written out.

Also Adrenaline belongs on the Techer tree because unless you're a fo/fi it makes zero sense for Adrenaline to even exist on the Fighter tree. I know what it does, and it doesn't seem right that a Fighter would just randomly have a skill affecting technics which they can't even cast without having/being a subclass.

[strikerhunter]

Fo:
-Make photon ignition a stance skill
-Remove PP1 and move the Ice Master 2, Freeze Keep, and Freeze Ignition boost under Freeze boost.

Hu:
-Everything you had in the OP
-Buff Never Give Up from 5SP to 10SP, from 5+ you get duration increase to 20sec with a +450 Satk boost.

Ra:
-Revamp the entire trapline or just remove it.

Gu:
-CT: investing more into CT makes CT on target last longer, 30 sec after the last time the target was hit.

Braver:
-Do something about the bow line. I don't even know, bow are just already plane good without it.

Fi:
-Make both stances into passives.

[SakuRei]

Hunter:

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/stdaniel_004/HunterClass_zpscebd71b7.png

-The gears should be in another path where it doesn't have to need this to unlock that. (especially the Sword Gear is far away from the Partizans or Wired Lances) If ever they have their specific path in the skill tree. ex. somewhere in the left part of hp up 1 at least needing 1~3 skill points to unlock so at least players will have ease on getting what weapon gears they like or mostly all of them so the points won't interfere with other skills.

-For the Warcry, it needs at least a good buff & debuff on the enemy. Well since the usual taunt buffs are sometimes monsters will be lured with you but increased attack and lowered defense. For PSO2 type I guess Monsters will be lured to you, but their Critical attack is increased and their defense are lowered depending on level. (Maximum of 30% on monster's critical hit and 25% Lowered Defense on Lvl 10)

Rangers:

-The Weak Bullet should need another key/button to be pressed on, or basically just press the key where you've put Weak Bullet instead since it interferes with the left click.

-Standing Snipe should at least give a certain buff where when you do a perfect JA attack on rifle while standing, you gain perfect chained hits on far away targeted enemies instead of doing spread fire. (Like come on, they're Rangers, they are trained to hit long ranged and accurately, not spraying bullets all over the place. AIM DOWN YOUR SIGHTS SOLDIER!) Right... I forgot about the 3rd Person Shoot or letter Z... Though I don't know if this hits accurately on long range though. I mean continuous 3 chain hits.

[Rakurai]

PP Charge Revival really should be in a more accessible part of the FO tree considering how essential it is to your damage output.

Techer also shouldn't have such a huge number of skills with five point pre-reqs.

[red1228]

I agree with pretty much everything Angelo said. To touch further on the Flat Stat bonuses that are damn near pointless at this stage of the game: How about making each SP point worth +0.5% to their respective stats? So at 10SP, they would give +5% power (which would be noticeable), but still not be better then Stances.

And I kinda agree with Macman's statement about Photon Flare. Considering you have to invest so much SP into it AND it takes a huge chunk of your HP away (pretty much turning the already squishy mages into one-hit-wonders), it should last longer then 30 seconds.

[Rien]

-Standing Snipe should at least give a certain buff where when you do a perfect JA attack on rifle while standing, you gain perfect chained hits on far away targeted enemies instead of doing spread fire. (Like come on, they're Rangers, they are trained to hit long ranged and accurately, not spraying bullets all over the place. AIM DOWN YOUR SIGHTS SOLDIER!) Right... I forgot about the 3rd Person Shoot or letter Z... Though I don't know if this hits accurately on long range though. I mean continuous 3 chain hits.

They're changing this with the ranger buff, so I wouldn't touch on that right now.

[gigawuts]

Class-defining things (PP revival up, gears, stances) should always be easy to get, at low levels. That means, as someone said, the gears should be right at the top of the hunter tree where you can always get all 3 for only 3 SP in total.

Stances should start strong, not start weak. Most skills should get their largest gain at level 1. None of this 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-15-25 kind of bullshit.

[Takatsuki]

- Buff Bow accuracy. Those things couldn't hit the broad side of a Big Vardha unless you're right next to them.

- Give Bow Tree a PP Charge Revival skill for PAs.

- Make Bows gain more PP per hit.

- Make Photon Flare a % based stance.

- Get rid of HU's Just Guard skill and make it always active. Daggers, Knuckles and Katana all have theirs built in, why not HU weapons?

- Get Sword Gear the heck off the Guard Stance tree.

- Give FI some JA Bonus skills.

- Not directly related to trees, but still relevant - Remove Demerits entirely from Tech crafting.

[Macman]

Correction: Adrenaline SHOULD BE FUCKING BUILT-IN WITH EXTEND ASSIST!

[musicmf]

Ignoring skill balancing, since that's a whole another can of worms...
(For instance, I really think Photon Flare, Wand Lovers, and Territory Burst should be 10 minute duration, 1 minute cooldown stances.)

All:
- Just Reversal is unlocked to begin with, placed at the top of the tree

Hu/FI/BR:
- Step > Step Attack (Removes the 3-Point Step Advance filler)

Hunter:
- Sword Gear should be moved over to the Fury Stance Tree (Easy to get with the rest of their useful skills)
- Guard > Just Guard > Just Counter (Removes the 3-Point SDEF filler)
- Reduce Warcry prereq for Iron Will (Lv2 or so)

Gunner:
- Reduce the number of Stat UPs in their tree that stand in the way of staple skills.
When going for the good skills normally, you have to run into 2~3x more of these than other classes.

Fighter:
Ranger:
Braver:

IMO, the above classes aren't that bad at all. Their trees are pretty straightforward and there aren't too many sunk points in them.
I think the major overhauls should happen in the Force/Techer Trees.


Force:

Flame Mastery > Mastery 2
> Burn Boost
> Flame Tech S Charge
Ice Mastery > Mastery 2
> Freeze Boost > Freeze Keep
> Freeze Ignition > F Ignition Boost
Bolt Mastery > Mastery 2
> Shock Boost
> Bolt Tech PP Save
Talis Tech Bonus > Photon Flare > Photon Flare Advance > Photon Flare Boost
> Photon Flare After Burst
> T-Atk High Up
> Normal Tech Advance
> Tech Charge Advance > Tech Charge Advance 2
> PP Charge Revival

Techer:

Territory Burst > Shifta Advance > Shifta Critical
> Deband Advance > Deband Cut
> Resta Advance
> Super Treatment
> Territory PP Save
> Extend Assist
Wind Mastery > Mastery 2
> Mirage Boost
Light Mastery > Mastery 2
> Panic Boost
Dark Mastery > Mastery 2
> Poison Boost
> Poison Ignition
Wand Gear > Wand Lovers > Wand Reactor
PP Restorate > PP Convert
> Elemental Weak Hit

Pretty much sticking all of the like-elements together, and giving the player the choice between damage or status effect.

If giving actual choice of build isn't strong enough for FO/TE, I would also reduce the max level for the skills since they have to spread themselves so thin.
FI/RA/GU can pretty much get all of their buffs in one tree.
HU/BR can max their important stance in one tree.
FO/TE.... can max out one element... then start working on a second... (Out of their 6 elements)

[Grady219]

For ranger it should work like this.

There should be 3 paths the the tree

Tech skills Bullets Traps


Tech skills would be the stuff that increases damage like standing snipe or stuff like killing bonus and the like.

Bullets would be the different types of bullets you can load like weak bullet or jellen shot.

Traps should be completely redone. The first skill in the trap tree should give you access to all types of traps. From there it should split off to let you put in up to 5 points to increase the max number of traps you can hold of each type of trap. The next section for each trap should increase it's effectiveness.

Traps should also be turned into a skill rather than an item and you should regenerate 1 trap after a certain amount of time passing.

[Dragon_Knight]

This turned out a bit longer than I expected, if you want to skip to the idea I have for the techer class scroll down just past the dotted line.

Techer tree- Supposedly a healing/support tree yet only one of its branches is support and due to the high cost of skills (min 3 SP/max 5SP to advance down the tree) it takes 64 SP to max healing boosters like resta advance, super treatment, PP regen, territory burst, and territory PP save. This leaves 11 SP to be divided up between extending buff duration and shifta advance. To be a full healer you have to be near end game. Even then you still must forgo fully realizing your full light tech damage capabilities and you weak point bonus damage. You become a stationary healing battery ever trying to keep up to the people running away from your healing.

The biggest problem from this is to get the healing skills you MUST dig past light mastery. Which needs needs a min of 6 SP to even unlock. Second you must spend 5 SP in light mastery to advance to resta boost OR you can spend 11 Sp (5...five....FIVE!!!!!!!11111 of which MUST be spent on confuse boost) to unlock super treatment. Mind you confuse boost isn't the worlds greatest effect. Even if it sticks, the melee users are always the closest targets and so confuse is nullified, so how can you justify spending 5 points on it?

The other trees have similar issues, to be any good you MUST focus on the tree. But due to the high cost of the abilities you must also give up ever maxing your dps. If you want to use wand gear AND have weak hit (buried deep in the support tree of all places) to "max" it you must spend 71 SP to do it.

I also hate how techer and force are the two most costly classes, techer has a total of 297 points and force 282 points. Hunter isn't much better at 279. While braver is the cheapest by far at only 208 points. Braver is not surprisingly the one with the least and cheapest fluff in its tree.

.................................................. .................................................. ..........................................

Now what I would want to see of the tech tree might be a bit strange, but I want to see: DPS, Support, stat boost. With everything branching from your basic dodge skill. Since it automatically has 1 SP assigned to it, all three branches are available to start down right away. Each ability costs between 2-3 SP to advance. Some skills I would cut down to 5 SP total while keeping their current power. Though I haven't decided which ones yet. Also the basic Shifta and Deband boost would lump both together in one category since they both get equal power as is.

[spoiler-box]http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=213&pictureid=38589[/spoiler-box]


Its a quick and dirty tree set up, but it still has the tree feature that makes you dig for skills while not making you completely fail to just be a techer. Tell me what you all think about it.

[UnLucky]

Pretty much everything is wrong with every tree.

Stat Up skills are trash. And the first half is even more trash while also being the most common prereq for non trash skills.

If the goal is to encourage generalization by forcing players to spread their SP across various skills then they fucked up. Those 3-5 points in trash are completely wasted because the vast majority of the skills' worth are in the last 5 points.

You are never going to notice +7% crit rate, or +18 Def, or 1.05x SE infliction rate whatsoever. Hell, you wouldn't notice +20% crit or +50 Def or 1.1x SE, but that's another story.

Throwing away a third of your total skill points on worthless garbage shouldn't be the standard.
Fully investing everything in a single tree branch shouldn't even be possible.
Splitting between two separate aspects shouldn't make you less than half as potent as focusing on only one.

[Sanguine2009]

shifta and deband up need to be a % damage boost or reduction, none of this % of a % of our base stats bs we have now
extend assist needs to increase the amount of time each tick adds to the buff in addition to adding to the max time
at least one of territory burst and wand lovers need to be a proper stance
wand gear should hit more than one hit box.
extend assist affect techs other than shifta/deband
this is not even getting into the god awful layout of the techer tree but its a decent start at some of the problems with its skills

[Angelo]

Be more specific. Like, I know the entire techer and hunter tree is flawed as hell. I just want to see it written out.

Also Adrenaline belongs on the Techer tree because unless you're a fo/fi it makes zero sense for Adrenaline to even exist on the Fighter tree. I know what it does, and it doesn't seem right that a Fighter would just randomly have a skill affecting technics which they can't even cast without having/being a subclass.

Its for partying. I have it in my HU/FI build because it makes the buff last longer. TEs right branch is for team support, why give them a skill that only effects the buffer? I don't think you understand how it works. I'm a Hu/Fi with adrenaline, my Te/Fo teammate casts deband on our party, The buff lasts longer for myself because of adrenaline.

I think what you're wanting is something that extends the duration of buffs for the whole party, which is probably what "Long Time Assist" will be.

[Cyclon]

Class-defining things (PP revival up, gears, stances) should always be easy to get, at low levels. That means, as someone said, the gears should be right at the top of the hunter tree where you can always get all 3 for only 3 SP in total.
Considering that I was going to point out that their biggest flaw in my opinion is that they don't give any incentive to level up after a certain point like they should... yeah.
Getting everything you want the most right away is something a talent tree shouldn't allow, basically.
Although, with the way they are implemented, yes, what you said makes sense.

Anyway, there is way too much to say here... tell you what, I'll pick one tree at random and ignore the others.

... techer. Well.

1. Too many individual talents that get in the way of one another. This tree needs to be reorganized/simplified.

2. Almost everything Shifta/Deband related is worthless, for no real reason. Remove them or make them useful. Maybe give them their own branch.

3. Techer isn't relevant in-game as a pure caster, and thus probably shouldn't have three elemental branches in its tree like Force does. Also, if you're going to have status effect boost rate talents, at least make them useful or something.

4. Everything wand related should have its own branch. Have superior HP and S-atk talents in it as well.

5. Wand reactor is something you can dump points into without regrets, make it a slightly better ten pointer.

6. Elemental Weak hit should be stronger in general. Like 110% at 1, 130% or so at 10.

7. Territory burst's effect on everything that isn't Zondeel should probably be passive somehow. Like, more and more techs would be affected passively as it'd grow in levels, but Zondeel never would. Going a little further, at level 10, your Zondeel would passively become impossible to activate through other people's Zonde-techs(maybe even yours). That may be too much for a single talent though.

8. Extend assist should cover its primary role(keeping Shifta/Deband active)better, or rather in a more convenient way than just spamming for 15 seconds while everybody waits.

10. PP up 1 & 2 should be 5 pointers.

11. Like (edit)Red1228 said, stats up talents(that aren't PP(&HP) up) should be percentage based.

Keeping it simple, that's about it I guess...

[futamieriko]

I think they need to re-examine what they want skill trees to bring to the game. You can take any build and weigh its value against another based on damage multipliers and usually be correct because the trees bring hardly any new gameplay, your PAs and techs just get more effective across the board.

Let me infuse fiery explosions into my other techs, make my lightning techs supercharge me for increased charge speed, give me the ability to chill the air I walk through and freeze nearby enemies, things that I can say "Hey, that looks fun, I wanna play like that." and not "This build has the highest consistent damage so this is what I'll be going with."

[Kondibon]

One thing I wanna bring up is the idea of certain stuff simply not being related to the skill trees at all. Things like core skills, Gears Stances, etc should be unlocked through some other method entirely, with the skill trees being to modify and upgrade them, rather than get them in the first place.

EDIT: The same for stuff like Step Attack, Just reversal, Just guard, etc. You get the idea.

[GALEFORCE]

I disagree with making Photon Flare a fury stance clone. I'd much rather keep the duration and HP penalties as is, but make it into a massive multiplier that gives forces boss-killing potential. This would keep forces from being too broken elsewhere while patching up their main weakness.

Something like..

Photon Flare1&2: 20%-40%
Photon Flare After Burst: 5%-15%

[UnLucky]

Yeah, PF needs to be twice as powerful or have the penalty removed or last 10 minutes.

I fully expect Sega to do all of the above.

[Kondibon]

What I want is for photon flare to add extra effects to Techs besides (or in addition to) damage. Like increased AoEs, faster Tics, or stuns, stuff like that.

EDIT: Hang on, I'm gonna write my ideas down.


Fioe: Bigger Grazing AoE and Travels faster.
Gifoie: Creates twice as many fireballs and lasts longer.
Rafoie: Bigger AoE and multiple hits (?)
Safoie: Bigger AoE, Knocks enemies down (?)
Nafoie: Fire field becomes 360 degrees, and appears even if you hit an enemy with the fireball.
Ilfoie: AoE is larger, fireball falls faster, Stuns instead of knocking down.

Barta: Leaves a trail of ice that damages enemies standing on it.
Gibarta: Larger AoE and faster Tics
Rabarta: Sucks enemies inside like Zondeel.
Sabarta: Lasts longer and has more Tics
Nabarta: 360 AoE
Ilbarta: Instantly bumps the effect to the second stage if it's not already, and doesn't reset on the last.

Zonde: Stuns and/or hits multiple times.
Gizond: Magnetizes the enemies struk to eachother (?)
Razonde: Gains a longer effect like Gifoie or Rabarta.
Sazonde: Bigger AoE and Staggers
Zondeel: Sucks enemies in even after being activated.
Nazonde: Bigger AoE and staggers.
Ilzonde: Leaves a trail of lightning behind you that damages enemies that touch it.

Zan: Shoots 5 disks instead of 3.
Gizan: ???????
Razan: Knocks enemies higher and has more tics
Sazan: Bigger AoE, Knocks enemies down (?)
Nazan: Longer range
Zanverse: 50% damage instead of 20%

Grants: moar dots!
Gigrants: MOAR DOTS! Larger AoE.
Ragrants: Longer range. MOAR DOTS!!
Resta: Leaves a healing over time on people hit by it.
Nagrants: MOAR! DOTS!
Ilgrants: Each projectile explodes when they hit something, doing AoE damage.

Megid: Moves faster and has a larger AoE
Gimegid: Does something that isn't dumb, (more tics?)
Ramegid: Larger area for balls to fall and more balls.
Samegid: same as Ilgrants, also fires 5 instead of 3.
Megiverse: leaves a buff on people to drain hp even after it ends.
Namegid: Creates a large shockwave that deals about 10% of the main damage to nearby enemies.

I dunno about the other support techs though.

[isCasted]

All classes: remove dodge advance skills and make a certain value by default. Just Reversal should be by default. Braver should only have J Reversal Cover and Snatch Step.

Hunter:
1. Remove Guard skills and make them by default.
2. Make defensive skills have value.
3. Remove Fury Combo Up and JA Bonus 2 (I would understand why would proper timing allow you to do 1.3x or 1.43x damage, but not 1.9x! Classes are very unequal in JA difficulty, so I don't want it to matter that much).

Fighter:
1. Stances should be passive.
2. Chase tree should have a skill that boosts chance of inflicting SE based on weapon's element (not just affixes).
3. Chase should work with special animations given by statusing (like Quartz/Ex poisoning).
4. Slayer tree needs to be %-based.

Ranger:
1. Trap skills should be removed, traps should be usable by default.
2. Killing Bonus should apply as long as you can get EXP and drops from an enemy.
3. Boost effects of Power Bullet and PP Save Bullet.
4. Creators of Mirage Shot and Panic Shot ideas should be brutally murdered while they walk through midnight streets.

Someting related to both Ranger and Fighter: Bind status effect.
1. It should work on minibosses.
2. It should disable attacks that involve movement (I hate that enemies like Dagacha can still move around even if you bind them).
3. It should at least stun bosses.

Gunner:
1. Change the way Aerial Advance works (everyone already mentiioned how).
2. Effect of Perfect Keeper should scale down when you lose HP, not vanish completely. It should also be buffed.

Force/Techer:
1. Elemental bs should go, but if it won't al least Mastery 2 skills should be removed. Those should be replaced by normal/Ra/Gi/Sa/Na/Il masteries.
2. Charge PP Revival should be by default.
3. Status Effect Boost should be a single skill at Force tree with 50% at 10 SP.
4. PP Convert should replace Photon Flare, Techer should get a skill that's more suitable for its playstyle. For example...
5. Territory Burst should be a stance, its opposite stance should boost damage.

Solely Techer:
1. Shifta/Deband/Resta advance should be a single skill with Shifta and Deband effects being significantly stronger. Shifta Critical/Deband Cut/Super Treatment should be a single skill too.
2. Extend Assist should also extend duration of ticks (so you only had to buff once and not 3 times to get full effect).
3. Tree should have 3 branches: melee, assist, tech. Every branch should require 3 points in respective elemental mastery and not more than that.
4. Obviously Wand Lovers should be somewher below Wand Gear and Territory PP Save - below Territory Burst.
5. Wand Reactor should be replaced by a skill that does same thing but for all weapons, not just wand.

Braver:
1. Rapid Shoot sucks. But if there're no other options...
2. Rapid Shoot Mastery should be at least 30% at 10 SP.
3. Rapid Shoot Up 1 should be replaced by Rapid Longshot - make arrows go further and faster (10 SP should make arrows fly perfectly straight).
4. Rapid Shoot Up 2 should be replaced by Rapid Headshot - increase probability of hitting head if you don't aim manually.

[Saffran]

There's a game here. It has a story, it has a setting, it has a concept and a philosophy of sorts. So, for example, no, Giga, you won't get 10lv skills that start off with huge bonuses, because THAT doesn't make any sense in PSO2 (or anywhere else, really). And yes, Unlucky, we ARE going to spend points in prerequisites if we want access to the juicier things.

We're trying to come up with things to make PSO2 better, not to make it more like another game we like. Ditching what makes PSO2 PSO2 is not the answer.
I made a new techter tree a few months ago with examples, but I don't find it...

[Zipzo]

I really disagree with the notion from some players that Techtor was intended to be some kind of pure support bitch tree, like Hunter is right now except with spells instead of damage.

I truly believe Techtor was born under the vision of being the scifi version of a "Battle Cleric". The "Paladin" so to speak, that supports it's party with spot heals and buffs but lays a considerable smack down otherwise. This is why I stick fervently to melee Techtor as it just really feels like how the class was meant to be played.

Every class should have a decent shot at being capable when solo, and using Techtor as the token scapegoat for "support" in this game is in my opinion, just deflecting the issue of keeping all classes within a reasonable window of independent capabilities.

[Kondibon]

I really disagree with the notion from some players that Techtor was intended to be some kind of pure support bitch tree, like Hunter is right now except with spells instead of damage.

I truly believe Techtor was born under the vision of being the scifi version of a "Battle Cleric". The "Paladin" so to speak, that supports it's party with spot heals and buffs but lays a considerable smack down otherwise. This is why I stick fervently to melee Techtor as it just really feels like how the class was meant to be played.

Every class should have a decent shot at being capable when solo, and using Techtor as the token scapegoat for "support" in this game is in my opinion, just deflecting the issue of keeping all classes within a reasonable window of independent capabilities.I don't see anyone saying otherwise. Only that what support Techer does have needs to be improved.

[UnLucky]

There's a game here. It has a story, it has a setting, it has a concept and a philosophy of sorts. So, for example, no, Giga, you won't get 10lv skills that start off with huge bonuses, because THAT doesn't make any sense in PSO2 (or anywhere else, really). And yes, Unlucky, we ARE going to spend points in prerequisites if we want access to the juicier things.

We're trying to come up with things to make PSO2 better, not to make it more like another game we like. Ditching what makes PSO2 PSO2 is not the answer.
I made a new techter tree a few months ago with examples, but I don't find it...
I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.

I really disagree with the notion from some players that Techtor was intended to be some kind of pure support bitch tree, like Hunter is right now except with spells instead of damage.

I truly believe Techtor was born under the vision of being the scifi version of a "Battle Cleric". The "Paladin" so to speak, that supports it's party with spot heals and buffs but lays a considerable smack down otherwise. This is why I stick fervently to melee Techtor as it just really feels like how the class was meant to be played.

Every class should have a decent shot at being capable when solo, and using Techtor as the token scapegoat for "support" in this game is in my opinion, just deflecting the issue of keeping all classes within a reasonable window of independent capabilities.
Techer was supposed to be everything Force wasn't, yet still the same.

It has a melee focus, a support focus, and a pure tech damage focus. But all three are bad, whether you try to split between them or not. There's too much crammed into one tree, and not enough of any one thing to either make a good compromise nor specialize at all.

[Sacrificial]

These threads are always fun, release some dissatisfaction, even though we all have done this an umpteenth time.
I agree with most here that ranger lines should be separated into 3-4

My idea on the Ranger tree:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r792/Sacrificiall/Rarevamp_zpsbc41b520.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

explanation:
Imo, an active or passive skill should not be under more than one core stat booster. But stat boosters can't be completely in a separate line, because people would prefer to avoid it unless you are a certain race/gender/mag that wouldn't be enough. So you have to mix them in.
So i placed the first few, under the first skill with passives that some people would like, while others will skip those down. (these 2 have the same situation as now but less buried)
The middle line is basically what all (most) Rangers are now but I've just placed it in one straight line.

Bullet and shell type should obviously under power bullet, that skill was made for them but put far,far, far away from where it should be.

Tool utility should be ratk based. (or a mix under ratk and rdef)
I have placed the Rdef before the traps, because.....well traps are a defensive technique(I do know rdef is for ranged damage you yourself take btw)

-trap placement time should be reduced.
-The timer on traps should be removed and more than one should be able to be placed. Imo they are based of mines and mines will lay where you put it untill some sad unlucky fellow steps on it. With a reactivation or timer its a bomb. not a mine.
- trap target recognition range needs to be slightly bigger.



don't just skip this D; i did my best with paint!

[UnLucky]

Well it doesn't really make much sense to get Power Bullet first before you can get anything for it to even work, but yeah the Ranger tree definitely needs to be split up better.

[Zipzo]

I don't see anyone saying otherwise. Only that what support Techer does have needs to be improved.

Nor do I, immediately within this thread at least, but too often do I see folks trying to "balance" the Techtor tree from the perspective of trying to make it, specifically, a better FO sub - more specifically with the purpose of bettering a FO's supportive options alongside its damage...and here I am, silly me, rooting for it to be a competitive main class in its effectiveness.


Techer was supposed to be everything Force wasn't, yet still the same.

It has a melee focus, a support focus, and a pure tech damage focus. But all three are bad, whether you try to split between them or not. There's too much crammed into one tree, and not enough of any one thing to either make a good compromise nor specialize at all.

I totally agree that the tree lacks focus, but I disagree in that it needs to competitively excel at each of these individual things as a stand-alone class (conceptually).

Based on how the game kinda is now, if it isn't competing with at least Fighter in damage output, it's worthless.

Based on how I believe it should be given the game was in a more balanced state, Techtor would be able to spread their points as thin as the tree kind of dictates, while not sacrificing so much that their point expenditures mean nothing. Essentially...Techtor strikes me as the one true "main" class that was meant to be hybrid-ish in practice. Obviously main/sub combinations exist to create such things, but Techtor to me is sort of like choosing the role of being a hybrid.

The problem I think is that SEGA themselves created 3 directions for Techtor initially, and have only scratched the surface on creating a nich for one of them, while the other two tend to be either worthless or outclassed not because of Techtor specifically but because of game mechanics (buffs and support being useless because duh, and offensive teching worthless because Force exists at all).

If it were...ever even close to possible for Techtor to actually be a melee natured hybrid, with effective offensive technique options while providing effective support spells (that last long enough to be convenient to use), then I'm okay with Techtor not doing the most damage, with either spells or melee.

You're right though, in the current iteration of Techtor, we lack in all 3 categories, specialized or not. I'm just hoping personally that when they finally start getting towards their goals for the Techtor tree in terms of its balance, it's more leaned on my vision of the class rather than that of the "FO sub" class. One can only hope though :/

[Mysterious-G]

I can't believe seemingly no one thinks the Fury side of the Hunter tree is far from okay the way it is.
In my opinion, we should not be able to access all of the Fury skills until level 100 or so. That could easily be achieved by spreading them out over the entire tree, making people choose what other skills they want to take with them along the way.

Not to sound conceited or anything, but some of you guys seem to just want easy access to the uber skills, not the variety in skill tree building we should be aiming for.

[Zipzo]

I can't believe seemingly no one thinks the Fury side of the Hunter tree is far from okay the way it is.
In my opinion, we should not be able to access all of the Fury skills until level 100 or so. That could easily be achieved by spreading them out over the entire tree, making people choose what other skills they want to take with them along the way.

Not to sound conceited or anything, but some of you guys seem to just want easy access to the uber skills, not the variety in skill tree building we should be aiming for.

Um, people have stated quite loud and clear across the horizons of this board that the Hunter tree is borked the way it is...

The question is how to fix it?

Though I do agree that some people tend to seem to just want everything lined up in a nice easy line for them to pick up near immediately...which is something I tend to not agree with conceptually.

[Silver Crow]

No, just no.

It's a skill tree for a reason. It's not a skill tree of incredible convenience. Hey let's put all the gears at the top of the tree, you want the damage boosting skills? Sure here you go. It doesn't work like that. Skill tree's are meant to be like this, you sacrifice points for stuff you need.

You guys may as well just choose your own bloody skills. You can't tailor everything to your preference.

[Kondibon]

I can't believe seemingly no one thinks the Fury side of the Hunter tree is far from okay the way it is.
In my opinion, we should not be able to access all of the Fury skills until level 100 or so. That could easily be achieved by spreading them out over the entire tree, making people choose what other skills they want to take with them along the way.

Not to sound conceited or anything, but some of you guys seem to just want easy access to the uber skills, not the variety in skill tree building we should be aiming for.
I think most of the skills on the fury side of the tree should be outright removed or merged. Not only is it overpowered, it's a large investment.

Also, it's not that people want easy access to the best skills, so much as there are a lot of skills that make or break a class so much that they might as well be core class features, not something you have to spend skill points on. Personally I'd prefer if a lot of this stuff wasn't even a part of the skill trees and you got it some other way, like a client order or something. If you've played guild wars 2 I'd compare them to the profession skills. While the skill trees should be providing secondary effects and bonuses like the traits.


Nor do I, immediately within this thread at least, but too often do I see folks trying to "balance" the Techtor tree from the perspective of trying to make it, specifically, a better FO sub - more specifically with the purpose of bettering a FO's supportive options alongside its damage...and here I am, silly me, rooting for it to be a competitive main class in its effectiveness.
Honestly, I think every class should be able to work well as a main or sub, and right now, Techer really is a pretty poor sub for FO. Techer needs to be improved all around, though. It's been improving as a main with the rebalance to wand lovers, and the addition of Ilzonde. I still think wands need PAs or more unique interactions with Techs though. Wand gear can hit hard, but it's still pretty boring. D:

[qoxolg]

Hey it's another one of these threads!

My main problem with the TE and FO skill trees ARE the elemental masteries. They are just bullshit that pigeonholes players into spamming the same techs in every area, making playing caster in this game boring. Elemental bonuses should come from equipment, like it did in the original PSO. The classes should have damage multipliers that create different play styles.

On top of that, imo classes should have a couple of innate skills that only work when you main the class. I could imagine something like a passive Territory Burst for Techer, or boosted GI-techs (this is kind off like how it was in PSOv3).

Also, wands need something like PA's, or something else that could make them do high single target burst damage.

Also, all the freakin fist pumping should be gone. Constantly keeping up Wand Lovers and TB is a big pain in the ass.


These are the idea's I posted a while ago for TE and FO.

[spoiler-box]
Alright, here are my idea’s for a complete rebuild of both the Techer and Force skills trees. In short: I removed all of the elemental bullshit. What I’ve tried to do, is removing the whole pidgin hole thing we have going right now. I tried to come up with skills that give more options, rather then just damage bonuses. I will only explain the skills I added or changed.

Techer tree

http://jojo.sappusx.com/Techertree.jpg

JA Bonus
This is simply a flat out JA Bonus for all damage types and attacks.

Zero Range Stance
When close to enemies, techs will do more damage, but will do less damage when further away.
@ lv1, Zero range = 10% up, long range = 10% down
@lv10 Zero Range = 30% up, long range = 5% down.
This skill will also work on wand explosions. Maybe it should also work on RATK based attacks.

In your face!
During Zero Range Stance, hitting the head of the enemy will do more damage
@lv1 = 1% up,
@lv10 = 10% up

Zero Range up
During Zero Range Stance, further increases Zero Range Damage
@lv1 = 1% up,
@lv 10 = 10% up

Offensive Focus
During Zero Range Stance, decrease the range and radius of techs, but increases power.
@lv1= 15% less range/radius, 5% more damage,
@lv10 50% less range/radius, 20% more damage

Wand Fusion
Increases the Radius of the wand explosions, also adds the ability to hit multiple hitboxes.
@lv1= 1.1x radius, @lv5= 1.5x radius, two hitboxes,
@lv10 2x radius, three hitboxes.

Wand Lovers
Wand Lovers gets a complete change. It will be more like katana combat: Short burst of damage with finish. Wand Lovers will have the following effects:
- Gear gauge full
- Wand changes into melee weapon: The charged versions of techs can be used as a PA using the combo system. Instead of switching the pallet, the wand will be able to block attacks (stacks with just guard from HU tree).
- Mirage Escape gets replaced by Step.

Duration and cool down the same as Katana Combat.

Lovers JA Bonus
Adds a JA Bonus during Wand Lovers

@lv1 5% up,
@lv5 15% up.

Lovers Escape
Same as Combat Escape during Wand Lovers.

Wand Break Up
Or Wand Divorce.. whatever sounds good..

This is the equivalent of Combat Finish. When activating, the wand will be put in the ground and detonates within 3 seconds, creating a huge blast, comparable to Cougars bomb attack. The radius is larger then Combat Finish, but the power is lower with 200% @ lv5

Wand Meltdown
The biggest issue of Techer, is it’s lack of burst damage. Wand Meltdown lets you deplete your Wand Gear Gauge to do a powerful attack. While holding the attack button, you will charge and upon releasing the button you will do the attack. There are 3 levels, each will deplete one of the gear bars. By holding down the attack button larger will charge level 2 and level 3 of the attack.

@lv10: Level 1 attack: 350% damage,
level 2 attack: 750% damage,
level 3 attack 1500% damage.

Territory Stance
New stance that will boost tech damage within the support range. It’s boost is lower then Zero Range, but his no downside.

@lv1 1% up
@lv10 20% up

Territory Burst
Boosts the range of support techs, but now always active during Territory Stance.

Territory Up
During Territory Stance boosts techs damage

@lv1 1% up,
@lv10 10% up.

Offensive Burst
During Territory Stance boosts the range and radius of offensive techniques at the expense of damage
@lv 1 1.1x range/radius, 20% damage down.
@lv10 2x range/radius, 10% damage down.

Long Live Support!
Increases the duration of support techs. In case of Deband and Shifta, both the ticks AND the max duration gets increased, @ lv 10 it will give ticks of 1 minute with a max duration of 4 minutes. Zanverse’, Megiverse’ and Zondeels (suction only) duration will double.

Shifta Up & Deband Up
Both will double the effect @ max level.

Lucky SE
During shifta, random SE’s will be inflicted to enemies.

@lv1 5% chance of inflicting SE with an attack,
@lv10 20% chance of inflicting SE with an attack.

Gotta go fast!
Increases attack animations during shifta.

@lv1 5% increase,
@lv10 20% increase

SE resistance Up
Decreases the chance of getting inflicted by SE’s

@lv1 10% decrease,
@lv10 50% decrease.

Wall
Adds the chance to completely negate the damage of an attack

@lv1 1% chance,
@lv10 10% chance

Mirage Cancel
At the expense of 10PP, cancel Mirage Escape by using an attack.

Mirage Charge
When using mirage while a tech is charged, you will perform a dash attack like assault buster

@lv1 100% damage (normal attack, based on T-ATK),
@lv5 300% damage

Stance Dance
This will be a skill that every class with stances should get. It lets the player use one single button to instantly alternate between two stances. This will allow a more fluid way of playing with stances. The whole duration and cool down gets removed, because it’s just dumb and makes classes like Fighter tedious to play with.

DON’T IGNITE MY ZONDEEL!1!1111
Other players can’t ignite your zondeels anymore :D AHAHHHHAHAHAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA FUCKERS!



Now on to Force Skill Tree:

http://jojo.sappusx.com/Forcetree.jpg

Rod Gear
Rod gear will have the same system as the sword and wand. It gets charged by using normal techs or rod melee. What it does: It allows to charge the tech a second time by holding the button, resulting in a tech with twice the power and twice the radius. The second charge will have the same PP cost as a regular charge and it will use up one bar of the gear.

Charged Tech up
Increases the power of charged techs

@lv1: 5% up,
@lv10 20% up

Second Charge PP Save
Reduces the amount of PP needed for the second charge of the rod gear.

@lv1: 10% reduction,
@lv10 50% reduction

Charged Tech Up 2
Same as 1

Charge Speed up
Decreases the time needed to charge a tech.

@lv1 -0.1s,
@lv10 -0.3s

Normal Tech Up 1 & 2
Increases the power of normal techs. Same as the old skill but now a much larger multiplier. SEGA could also simply change normal techs, so it could have a normal multiplier.

@lv1: 10% up
@lv10: 75% up

Normal Tech JA PP Save
Save PP when Just Attacking normal techs.

@lv1: 10% cost reduction,
@lv5 50% cost reduction.

Long Range Stance
Increases tech damage when enemies are far away (outside of support range). Belongs to the same stance family as the two on the Techer tree and can also be Stance Danced.

@lv1: 10% up long range, 10% down zero range.
@lv10 30% up long range, 5% down zero range.

Talis Gear
Charges by using techs. When trowing a card, while holding down the attack button, the Talis will suck in enemies with the range of Zondeel. Sucking in enemies will slowly decrease the Gear gauge, when releasing the attack button the suction will stop after a second.

Long Range Up
Increases the power of techs during Long Range Stance.

@lv1: 1% up,
@lv10: 10% up.

Resta Bonus
After using resta, the player gets a small health bonus every 5 seconds for one minute.

@lv1: 1% health every 5 seconds,
@lv10: 10% health every 5 seconds.

Super Healer
Active skill that removes the ticks of Resta and puts them all in one tick.

@lv1: Duration 60s, cooldown 180s.
@lv10 Duration 60s, cooldown 90s

Devine protection
During Super Healer, while using resta, adds Iron Will to the healed players (doesn’t stack with Iron Will)

@lv1: 10% chance of surviving, duration 5s.
@lv5: 50% chance of surviving, duration 30s.

Angels Touch
When using resta during Super Healer, there will be a chance that fallen players will be revived.

@lv1: 10% chance,
@lv10: 50% chance.

Flame JA Charge Cut
Cuts the charge time of fire techs when Just Attacking.

@lv1: -0.1s,
@lv5: -0.3

Bolt Tech PP save
Same as old one, but less skill points needed

Wind bounce
Couldn’t think of anything good for wind, but here I go:
Zan will now bounce when hitting a floor, wall or enemy.

@lv1: bounces once,
@lv5: can bounce up to 5 times.

Purifying Light
Light techs will have a change to instantly kill a darker. For small fries it will be unreduced. For larger enemies, the chance will be halved. mini bosses can’t get instantly killed but have a change to have their HP cut in halve.

@lv1: 5% chance on small fries, 2,5% chance on big enemies, 1% chance to halve the energy of a mini boss.
@lv10: 20% chance on small fries, 10% chance on big enemies, 5% chance to halve the energy of a mini boss.

Dark Vampire
Dark techs will drain the HP of the enemies and heals the player.

@lv1: 0.2% of damage will be drained, @lv5: 1% of damage will be drained

Photon Glare
This was originally a joke skill for a little artwork I did:
[spoiler-box]
http://jojo.sappusx.com/ok372s.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

It will be the opposite of War Cry: It will scare the enemies away and lets the poor force lose agro.



Well, that was all! Someone else can do the other skill trees, because I am lazy and I am probably wasting my time :wacko:
[/spoiler-box]

[jooozek]

tech casting benefiting from elemental attributes on weapons was already announced

[Kondibon]

tech casting benefiting from elemental attributes on weapons was already announcedIt's gonna cost SP though. :I I wouldn't mind that for something that just improves what's already there, but there's no base bonus at all.

[Mysterious-G]

Um, people have stated quite loud and clear across the horizons of this board that the Hunter tree is borked the way it is...

The question is how to fix it?

Though I do agree that some people tend to seem to just want everything lined up in a nice easy line for them to pick up near immediately...which is something I tend to not agree with conceptually.


I think most of the skills on the fury side of the tree should be outright removed or merged. Not only is it overpowered, it's a large investment.

Also, it's not that people want easy access to the best skills, so much as there are a lot of skills that make or break a class so much that they might as well be core class features, not something you have to spend skill points on. Personally I'd prefer if a lot of this stuff wasn't even a part of the skill trees and you got it some other way, like a client order or something. If you've played guild wars 2 I'd compare them to the profession skills. While the skill trees should be providing secondary effects and bonuses like the traits.


I think another big issue aside the big modifiers on some of the skills, and the Fury ones especially, is their availability within a tree. You do not have to use melee weapons to make full use of the Fury Side of the Hunter tree. Every skillpoint you invest is a good investment, even if you are a Ranger or Gunner.

However, by putting some of the Fury skills into the right side of the Hunter tree, that would be changed entirely: one still would be free to aim for those skills, but it would take more levels to get to them, and the skills picked up along the way wouldn't benefit Rangers and Gunners on the same level as they would benefit any of the melee classes, if at all. Putting A Fury Up underneath Never Give Up for instance undeniably would benefit a Hunter more than it would benefit a Ranger. That is just one of many possible examples.

[jooozek]

It's gonna cost SP though. :I I wouldn't mind that for something that just improves what's already there, but there's no base bonus at all.

dont really see the problem, would you rather invest points in masteries? gu/br are also getting nerfed

[UnLucky]

No, just no.

It's a skill tree for a reason. It's not a skill tree of incredible convenience. Hey let's put all the gears at the top of the tree, you want the damage boosting skills? Sure here you go. It doesn't work like that. Skill tree's are meant to be like this, you sacrifice points for stuff you need.

You guys may as well just choose your own bloody skills. You can't tailor everything to your preference.
Ranger and Hunter(sub) works exactly like that, though. And Braver. You want a good skill? It's right there. You want a logical continuation of that skill? It's right under it. Katana Gear is one of the very first things you can get.

Why shouldn't it be like that? Why does Gunner have to put points in THREE separate static stat skills in order to unlock Showtime, for example? Same thing with PP Slayer/Crazy Beat: buried beneath three trash skills nobody would ever want.

It essentially doubles the cost of skills that aren't even good on their own. That is bad design.

Meanwhile Hunter has FIVE purely offensive skills IN A ROW. That is bad design.

[redroses]

Like many have mentioned, I think most skilltrees need to be reworked completely. many skills need to be rearranged, removed, changed and decreased in cost.

For example, Flame Tech charge should become Tech charge, so every technic can benefit from faster casting. Being able to cast all techs as fast as Foie techs, with the skill fully leveled, would help forces out a lot in my opinion. Being able to cast buffs, resta or zondeel faster would also help out techer a lot.

I wouldn't even know where to begin with the skilltree of techer, but I think a good start would be to split it in three categories, melee, support and techs.
This alone would make it much easier to built yourself the techer role you want.

Further more, I personally feel that there should be more skills that only work when you the main a class. I just think, classes need more that sets them apart from each other, especially with the increase of all class weapons.
Katana Combat is one such skill that I think should only work if you main bravers.
This is just my opinion however.

[Mysterious-G]

It essentially doubles the cost of skills that aren't even good on their own. That is bad design.

Meanwhile Hunter has FIVE purely offensive skills IN A ROW. That is bad design.

That's why I think a middle road of those two is desirable, having "lesser" skills between the uber ones, but not having them be complete trash. (A buff.) Also mainly useful for their main class.

[musicmf]

I can't believe seemingly no one thinks the Fury side of the Hunter tree is far from okay the way it is.
In my opinion, we should not be able to access all of the Fury skills until level 100 or so. That could easily be achieved by spreading them out over the entire tree, making people choose what other skills they want to take with them along the way.

Not to sound conceited or anything, but some of you guys seem to just want easy access to the uber skills, not the variety in skill tree building we should be aiming for.

IMO The Fury tree at our current level is actually fine.
You grab the entire Fury Tree and like... Just reversal and you are completely out of points! No gears, no just guard/counter, no nothing else.
By investing in the Fury Tree, you get great rewards, but don't get to play with anything much else.

The problem with the tree is that the reward of over 2x damage up is too much. Combined with the fact that Guard Stance is practically useless... makes any decision to stray from Fury Stance completely moot.
Maybe if your a hunter main you'll squeeze out a couple points to get the Gears. But otherwise you can just max the Fury Tree and not have a second thought about it. Nothing else is worth it.

If there are things to be changed in the Fury Tree; I'd say it would be the modifiers, and the -order- you get them in.

http://s30.postimg.org/95i6wxrz5/Fury_Stance.jpg
- Make the tree start with Fury Stance; to give the greatest value per skill points right up front.
- Have Fury Critical (originally) optional after the stance, so those that go hybrid can skip it.
- Have the Fury S Ups come next, since that has more restrictions than JA Bonus. You should have to go through Fury S Up first.
- Make Fury S Up 1, and JA Bonus 1 give less bonus than the ver2's. This way in order to go a more "mastery" of Fury Stance, you -have- to dump all 10 points into the prereq in order to advance to the second version..
(Like make Fury S Up 1 give 0.5% per level, while Fury S Up 2 gives 1.5% Per level. It's relatively the same as both giving 1% per level, but it makes Fury S Up 2 more desirable and more of an investment to get)
- Fury Combo Up should be the strongest buff of the tree, but it should be the final skill you get with it. This will still lead to Fury Critical being required for the skill, but not shoving it in the way of the rest of the tree. This way there is no way to get the skill without heavy investment into this tree. (Kind of like "Snap" from Ragnarok Online's Monk skill tree (http://irowiki.org/~himeyasha/skill4/mon.html?102kGA2fhOrdeDkqkK))

After the placement is dealt with, perhaps they can deal with the modifiers themselves.
I think an easy way to maintain balance would be to instead of "increasing S-ATK" with the 6 modifier skills in the tree, have them "Increase Sword by X" "Increase Wirelance by X" "Increase Partisan by X" "Increase Twindagger by X" ... "Increase Katana by X" "Increase Bulletbow by X"
(Hell, even have Critical change per weapon type)
Granted the level up window would be huge to display all of that information, but this way, each individual weapon type is increased by a certain amount. And buffs and nerfs to fury stance can be done independently of weapon without it massacring the other utilities of this skill.
Another thing they can do is that instead of decreasing the benefits; they can increase the penalties of the Fury Stance. Don't make the damage received decrease per level of Fury Stance, make it increase instead. Also, add this debuff to Fury S Up 1/2, and Fury Combo Up. That way if your fully invested... you better be packing some Hax Units, or be prepared to get 1-shotted by Dagan (Maybe not that extreme... but you know).

Something like this IMO is perfect for Fury Tree.
They would just have to do this to all classes, and give all classes a choice of 2~3 useful trees they could possibly max out. (Unlike Braver/Ranger where they get practically ALL their useful skills in one neat little package WITH points to spare.)
On each level cap increase, they would also have to add more skills to -all- major skill tree investments. (The example in this post is the Fury Stance Tree) Make it so you have to practically invest all available points to max the tree out, never allowing points elsewhere. This way specialists can reap the complete benefits, but hybrids will never be able to max it out one spectrum of the trees. (Instead of their current rate of giving only 1 new 5-point skill per a '5 level' cap increase)

*Note: Again this is barely touching -actual- skill balancing. Which should definitely be taken into consideration much more than just tree positions.
HU should not get nearly +120% Damage for anything they do for just an investment of the Fury Tree; while TE only gets +44% For 2 elements, and +26% for the 3rd element in their tree for investing all of their points into elemental masteries. (And, missing many useful skills in the process. (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI nqnqqbn6bnfGA000007b000009b000000lb000009b000000j4 OIdHXideKfqxIk00000lb000008))
HU shouldn't get that increase at ALL times while a FI has to change stances over and over. (IMO, give FI's stances the Wand Lover Fist Pump, and make their stances have a short... idk 3 second cooldown)

===============================

But yeah, that's just my opinion.
The things I would personally push more for are;
- Removal of things that should be innate to a class. (PP Charge Revival, Just Recovery, Traps, and Just Guard)
- Less (but not completely gone) Junk in the way of useful skills. (See GU Tree for Showtime for a bad example)
- Make some Class defining skills locked to main class only (Weak Bullet/Chain Trigger/Photon Flare [If buffed to be good]/Territory Burst/Katana Combat are possible ideas for this)
- Class defining skills near the top of trees to learn, but more points are required for mastery. (See Bravery tree and next point)
- Each Staple tree path branch out in the beginning, to allow the player to pick and choose their build. (See Braver Tree; Ability > Average/Katana/Weak/Bow, for a good example)
- Make the OP Skills hidden behind multiple prereqs (Like the Ragnarok Online skill trees; or my proposed Fury Tree change)
- Make the earlier levels of skills the biggest increase to promote hybridness (Kind of like the "Rare Mastery" skills for an example)
- Reduce the amounts of numerical increases for trees, change them to percentage based instead. Since as you level up these become more and more of a waste. (I think people even thought this for the Lv 30 level cap... what more now that we are moving on to lv 70)

[gigawuts]

Considering that I was going to point out that their biggest flaw in my opinion is that they don't give any incentive to level up after a certain point like they should... yeah.
Getting everything you want the most right away is something a talent tree shouldn't allow, basically.
Although, with the way they are implemented, yes, what you said makes sense.

I agree, but I don't think class-defining roles are the way to do it. Everybody loves multipliers. Rangers, gunners, and bravers cap hunter just because of its multipliers. Who subs hunter for swords, wired lances, or partisans to use in some way besides dashing and only occasionally for damage? Fighters, and rarely bravers. Assault Buster, one single move, does not an effectively used HU sub make.

As a certified broken record player, I feel it's my duty to repeat myself.

HU's biggest problem is how much SP each tree takes up. The Fury tree because every offensive damage SP spent matters. The Guard tree because every defensive SP spent doesn't matter unless you max the skill, and even then it's too situational. Fury works all the time, Guard works some of the time...if you max it. If you don't max it then sometimes it won't even work when you do need it.

The Fury tree gives too much, and costs too much. Yes, there is an argument you can make that specializing in more offense could be balanced by sacrificing utility skills, but that is only true if every class is faced with this choice. Where's the 70 points of offense that Braver has to spend, while skipping everything that isn't +1% damage? Where's the 70 points of offense Fighter has to spend, sacrificing each gear and an entire stance to get it? Multipliers stacked on multipliers stacked on multipliers is something only HU has to deal with. Every single other class can get their gear, their Rare Mastery, their Step & Just Reversal, Weak Bullet, etc.

I think the biggest issue here isn't the specifics of trees, but the intended purposes of classes. Trees fill in a class's prescribed role, not the other way around. We say "This class is for X" and create skills so it does X. If those skills don't make it do X we change them until they do. If they still don't we replace them with skills that do. That isn't the most important step, though - the most important step is determining if X is even a good idea. Sega isn't doing this, and that's the whole problem.

Example: Fighter stances. They were intended to be stances you change to improve your damage as you prance around an enemy. Are they working as intended? Yes. Is what they intended fun or a good idea? No, it's tedious and annoying. You can be nicked during the fistpump and lose the stance for 60 full seconds. Enemies can be knocked down by other players, making them turn around. Enemies have weak points on different parts of their bodies, or bizarre and unintuitive centerpoints (vader, falz elder).

So yeah, you can't fix trees until you determine what a class is supposed to do, and then you need to determine if what a class is supposed to do is even a good idea. Then you have to retool that for a couple classes, and the tree will be completely unrecognizable when you're done when core skills are removed and replaced so the tree helps the class achieve its role.

[Lorne]

Massive Hunter needs to live up to its name and double the character's size while it's active.

[Rien]

Massive Hunter needs to live up to its name and double the character's size while it's active.

but then we'd have massive tits.

I'll update the OP tomorrow when I wake up.

[Mysterious-G]

It would be the birth of a new kind of trap. The temporarily-grown loli. :wacko:

[Inazuma]

DON’T IGNITE MY ZONDEEL!1!1111
Other players can’t ignite your zondeels anymore :D AHAHHHHAHAHAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA FUCKERS!

Sega, hire this man.

[gigawuts]

edit:

[SPOILER-BOX]IMO The Fury tree at our current level is actually fine.
You grab the entire Fury Tree and like... Just reversal and you are completely out of points! No gears, no just guard/counter, no nothing else.
By investing in the Fury Tree, you get great rewards, but don't get to play with anything much else.

The problem with the tree is that the reward of over 2x damage up is too much. Combined with the fact that Guard Stance is practically useless... makes any decision to stray from Fury Stance completely moot.
Maybe if your a hunter main you'll squeeze out a couple points to get the Gears. But otherwise you can just max the Fury Tree and not have a second thought about it. Nothing else is worth it.

If there are things to be changed in the Fury Tree; I'd say it would be the modifiers, and the -order- you get them in.

http://s30.postimg.org/95i6wxrz5/Fury_Stance.jpg
- Make the tree start with Fury Stance; to give the greatest value per skill points right up front.
- Have Fury Critical (originally) optional after the stance, so those that go hybrid can skip it.
- Have the Fury S Ups come next, since that has more restrictions than JA Bonus. You should have to go through Fury S Up first.
- Make Fury S Up 1, and JA Bonus 1 give less bonus than the ver2's. This way in order to go a more "mastery" of Fury Stance, you -have- to dump all 10 points into the prereq in order to advance to the second version..
(Like make Fury S Up 1 give 0.5% per level, while Fury S Up 2 gives 1.5% Per level. It's relatively the same as both giving 1% per level, but it makes Fury S Up 2 more desirable and more of an investment to get)
- Fury Combo Up should be the strongest buff of the tree, but it should be the final skill you get with it. This will still lead to Fury Critical being required for the skill, but not shoving it in the way of the rest of the tree. This way there is no way to get the skill without heavy investment into this tree. (Kind of like "Snap" from Ragnarok Online's Monk skill tree (http://irowiki.org/~himeyasha/skill4/mon.html?102kGA2fhOrdeDkqkK))

After the placement is dealt with, perhaps they can deal with the modifiers themselves.
I think an easy way to maintain balance would be to instead of "increasing S-ATK" with the 6 modifier skills in the tree, have them "Increase Sword by X" "Increase Wirelance by X" "Increase Partisan by X" "Increase Twindagger by X" ... "Increase Katana by X" "Increase Bulletbow by X"
(Hell, even have Critical change per weapon type)
Granted the level up window would be huge to display all of that information, but this way, each individual weapon type is increased by a certain amount. And buffs and nerfs to fury stance can be done independently of weapon without it massacring the other utilities of this skill.
Another thing they can do is that instead of decreasing the benefits; they can increase the penalties of the Fury Stance. Don't make the damage received decrease per level of Fury Stance, make it increase instead. Also, add this debuff to Fury S Up 1/2, and Fury Combo Up. That way if your fully invested... you better be packing some Hax Units, or be prepared to get 1-shotted by Dagan (Maybe not that extreme... but you know).

Something like this IMO is perfect for Fury Tree.
They would just have to do this to all classes, and give all classes a choice of 2~3 useful trees they could possibly max out. (Unlike Braver/Ranger where they get practically ALL their useful skills in one neat little package WITH points to spare.)
On each level cap increase, they would also have to add more skills to -all- major skill tree investments. (The example in this post is the Fury Stance Tree) Make it so you have to practically invest all available points to max the tree out, never allowing points elsewhere. This way specialists can reap the complete benefits, but hybrids will never be able to max it out one spectrum of the trees. (Instead of their current rate of giving only 1 new 5-point skill per a '5 level' cap increase)

*Note: Again this is barely touching -actual- skill balancing. Which should definitely be taken into consideration much more than just tree positions.
HU should not get nearly +120% Damage for anything they do for just an investment of the Fury Tree; while TE only gets +44% For 2 elements, and +26% for the 3rd element in their tree for investing all of their points into elemental masteries. (And, missing many useful skills in the process. (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06bnbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI nqnqqbn6bnfGA000007b000009b000000lb000009b000000j4 OIdHXideKfqxIk00000lb000008))
HU shouldn't get that increase at ALL times while a FI has to change stances over and over. (IMO, give FI's stances the Wand Lover Fist Pump, and make their stances have a short... idk 3 second cooldown)

===============================

But yeah, that's just my opinion.
The things I would personally push more for are;
- Removal of things that should be innate to a class. (PP Charge Revival, Just Recovery, Traps, and Just Guard)
- Less (but not completely gone) Junk in the way of useful skills. (See GU Tree for Showtime for a bad example)
- Make some Class defining skills locked to main class only (Weak Bullet/Chain Trigger/Photon Flare [If buffed to be good]/Territory Burst/Katana Combat are possible ideas for this)
- Class defining skills near the top of trees to learn, but more points are required for mastery. (See Bravery tree and next point)
- Each Staple tree path branch out in the beginning, to allow the player to pick and choose their build. (See Braver Tree; Ability > Average/Katana/Weak/Bow, for a good example)
- Make the OP Skills hidden behind multiple prereqs (Like the Ragnarok Online skill trees; or my proposed Fury Tree change)
- Make the earlier levels of skills the biggest increase to promote hybridness (Kind of like the "Rare Mastery" skills for an example)
- Reduce the amounts of numerical increases for trees, change them to percentage based instead. Since as you level up these become more and more of a waste. (I think people even thought this for the Lv 30 level cap... what more now that we are moving on to lv 70)[/SPOILER-BOX]

Most of this is good, however we disagree on a few points.

Class-defining roles should stay easily accessed, and stay available when subbing a class. This is because this game is meant to be played as two classes, as PSO was meant to be played as hybrid classes. I can hear people saying "you never played more than one class in PSO," well, on the surface of it you're correct. When you dig down though, not so much.

Every class was a combination of several factors.
1. Mainclass weapon access (Rifles for rangers, Swords for hunters, etc.)
2. Racial ability & weapon access (Traps or techs, race-specific weapons [Berdys, etc.])
3. Gender bonuses & weapon access (Stronger techs & more tech types [level 20 + SD and JZ for HUney and RAmarl], gender-specific weapons)
4. When 1, 2, and 3 didn't bring a character close enough to a well defined role, character-specific role-achieving tweaks that broke the template were brought in. A few noteworthy examples include HUcaseals having ata through the roof despite humans traditionally being the ata race, plus each force had different bonuses, such as both humans having S&D range bonuses, both females having anti&resta range bonuses, both males having gi-tech range bonuses, and then the FOney having a simple tech damage bonus, FOnewm having a RA tech damage bonus, and FOmarl having a grants damage bonus.

Note: As a result of this, until PSOBB the HUcast was the only character without access to any weapon with rifle range. No handguns, no mechguns, no rifles, no slicers, nothing. Every single other character had a gender-specific or race-specific weapon with rifle range. This is a part of the sort of stuff I'm talking about.

It was the combination of things that made a character useful in some way. I'm not saying they were equal, I'm just saying they had intended roles and base stats, weapon accesses, or extra bonuses that drove them to reaching that role.

Subclassing is how that's done now. Not every combination will necessarily synergize well, but they don't need to for the bulk of the combinations to work. This is also another part of why I see hunter's tree as such a failure. You don't have a subclass, you have a doubled mainclass. Subbing hunter is like going /master. Rangermaster, Gunnermaster, Bravermaster, etc.

Every single class should offer its class-defining role, then ~50% extra damage to its main. Additional to that should be the extra bonuses and utilities.

This would be fairly easy to do right now, actually. Not much would have to change. A few examples I've thought of over time: Give Zero Range Advance +20% damage for striking & techs. Techer/Gunner becomes viable overnight. Change Weak Hit Advance to buff striking & tech damage by 20% on any hitbox weak to ratk (this check would give bonus damage on head hitboxes). Make all tech masteries buff weapon elemental damage (a 50% fire weapon with both fire masteries becomes 1.5*1.2*1.2=2.16, a 116% fire weapon).

I have to disagree with the strongest skills being at the end though. If you had resets that didn't cost real money, sure okay. That works in other games. That isn't this game though.

[UnLucky]

IMO The Fury tree at our current level is actually fine.
You grab the entire Fury Tree and like... Just reversal and you are completely out of points! No gears, no just guard/counter, no nothing else.
By investing in the Fury Tree, you get great rewards, but don't get to play with anything much else.
Well the other problem is that subbing the class gets all the benefit but none of the drawbacks.

It's exacerbated with main-only skills.

A Hunter sub doesn't need any of the weapon gears. A Braver sub can max both stances while ignoring katana/bow skills. A Techer sub can completely ignore wand melee and the majority of support skills.

And on a similar note, a Gunner sub can't really make use half of the skill tree since it requires TMGs. You either play exactly like a Gunner main with a multi-class weapon, or you get the single subset of skills that actually helps you.

Making a single branch cost all of your points simply isn't good skill tree design. There isn't any real choice there, you just level up and get linearly stronger. It's that, or be gimp.

[gigawuts]

Stupid idea

Make Fury Stance Up 1 into Fury Striking Up, 20% for only striking damage

Then make Fury Stance Up 2 into Fury Range Up, 20% for only ranged damage

Suddenly, people subbing HU for melee have 15 SP to spend!

[GreenArcher]

"2. Killing Bonus should apply as long as you can get EXP and drops from an enemy."

No, no, no, this would be ridiculous. May as well give Ranger infinite PP.

[starwhisper]

Ah nice topic, I like it. I have no illusions about SEGA reading it but its always good to know what fellow arks think about our ... strange ... skill trees.

I wont be covering every class, I'll only talk about my favorite class: gunner. I liked gunner from the very start, its ability to fly and to use ratk for close range damage made me really like the class. And after month of satellite aim spamming it was a huge relief to gain useful PA's and finally getting those immortality 11* ;) I finally married my gunner ;) .

But even if the gameplay is very good, gunner always suffered from an horrible disease: completely braindead dumb skill tree. It is obvious that the guy who made our skill tree only have instructions to make the tree work in the economic model wanted by sega, he had no ligne to follow about "feel of caracter progression", "specialisation vs diversity", "fun". The result of this is a skill tree that is so awful it prevents sega from releasing pso2 in the western world because they would be crushed by shame. (Even free to play 2d games have better skill trees in the western world).

The major problems of gunner skill tree have already been brought to the table: waste of points in useless stat gains and semi usefull skills that nobody takes because of the awful SP cost.

Here you can see an example of how the gunner tree should have been looking from the start, in my opinion.

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/150355Gunnerst.png

-Yeah I added an aerial advance 2, also I would like to see aerial advance boosting the gunner's damage , not debuffing one target;all this because of the natural aerial playstyle of the gunner.

-I would like to have SROLL JA BONUS greatly reduced, beacause atm I feel like only the pa's used after an SROLL are usefull, but some time ago some moves like satellite aim spam did a really good amount of damage, now its backflip-PA-backflip-PA-backflip... With heel stab and shift period there is no need of thinking about your placement: you will spam ennemies with bullets auto-aimed at the ennemi's weak points. Too easy to be fun son.

-It would be cool if all showtime talents could be built in one, showtime is shit, I can't say more really. And the fact that you need to land and loose time doing that stupid animation made me trash this skill. This also brings us to my next commentary:

-It would be really many nice if we could activate our skills while flying !!! I mean showtime and chain trigger! I will use the simple example of a gunner vs dark ragne fight. A gunner can kill ragne quite fast because he can fly and shoot at the weak point all the time. It would be incredibly fun if I could pop chain trigger , build the chain and FINISH while flying !! Requires some skill, good placement, good awareness, its rewarding! not like backflip-heal stab LOL ALL DEATHED. SAME for show time! We could save our teammates if we could suddenly pop showtime, even while flying.

- A boost to zero range critical would be nice too, atm all critical skills are just crap.

So here yo have it: a simple to understand skill tree yet offering interessant choices whith a feel of progression, an untouched gameplay and a better customisation. This is my humble opinion of course and I will apreciate all feedback. Gunners tell me what you think of it ;)

[Dnd]

Or just change the Just attack skills to apply to melee and gunslash attacks, so you don't gimp gunslash users like sakai :p

^ You use GM yet say flip PAing with auto-aimed bullets is too easy to be fun? im not sure I get it, I'd think the whole 98% perfect keeper uptime for 20% damage and not dying is the too easy to be fun part. Also zero range crit is like +50% at max points, which is 2-5 times better then other classes.

What i'd LOVE to see most of all is the crit skills changed to the following:
Increases the critical strike chance AND damage by 2-4% per skillpoint, and make it 5 skillpoints instead of 10

[gigawuts]

Stat ups aren't useless. They exist so people who don't/can't/won't buy extra mags are forced to run out of SP before they can get all of the multipliers.

Then, when they finally do get mags, they have to buy a new skilltree so they can get all of the multipliers.

They achieve that goal 110%.

It's good business. Bad game design, but good business.

edit:

Or just change the Just attack skills to apply to melee and gunslash attacks, so you don't gimp gunslash users like sakai :p

Edit: ^ You use GM yet say flip PAing with auto-aimed bullets is too easy to be fun? im not sure I get it?

Good point. Fury Striking Up should be all striking plus all damage with a gunslash equipped, then Fury Range Up should be all bullet damage when a gunslash isn't equipped. This is nice, since bullet mains only get 5 more SP, but melee mains get more 15 sp.

With another 15 SP on the HU tree you can get every gear, the JG tree, rare mastery, and the step tree. If they removed the JG tree and you get step on your other class you can even dig a bit into a defensive skill. If they reduce Iron Will's 5 sp requirement to 1 sp you could even max Iron Will and get 1 sp in Never Give Up ( http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06fbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbIn qnGXcBeDInfcKfGAIbIn00000ib000009b000000lb000009b0 00000lb0000000Ib000008 ). I honestly feel this should be a standard HU tree.

[starwhisper]

Using GM doesn't allow me to 2 button press wipe everything while that flip bonus allows me too. ;)

[WildarmsRE5]

ahhh, but GM Does allow you to not care about anything and keep on attacking.

[starwhisper]

yes, its totally OP and only matched by celestial laser, but this discussion is about skill trees right? ^^

[Dnd]

Using GM doesn't allow me to 2 button press wipe everything while that flip bonus allows me too. ;)

I can wipe everything just using just attacks without the flip bonus, my shift period auto-aims and hits 4-6k per bullet instead of 8-12k.
GM allows you to not care about dodging anything (Aside elder's butt stomp i suppose) and just attack constantly and well, at almost 1.1k r-atk with a +100 affix its damage is far from laughable. I had one and used it until I sold it for 70million.... but this isn't the thread for that.

Stat-ups i'd like removed and put more stats on the base classes, they take up so many SP's for some classes (Gunner mainly, Ra if you want special bullets, fighter to a lesser extent) and its mostly pointless. but then again, they are there if you make a mistake on mags i suppose

[UnLucky]

Stat Ups aren't worthless, they're just worse than most anything else and are forced on players with the smaller half of the bonus.

In Fighter's case, pretty much all you can get is S-Atk Up after a certain point.

[Zyrusticae]

L
I wouldn't even know where to begin with the skilltree of techer, but I think a good start would be to split it in three categories, melee, support and techs.
This alone would make it much easier to built yourself the techer role you want.

Yes, please.

We really need all the general force/techer technique skills to be on their own branch of the tree. Y'know, stuff like the charge PP skills and the like should not be element-specific at all. Every element should have its own quirks, sure, but those should be baked into the techniques themselves rather than stuck into the element skill trees where they inevitably cause massive balance issues. You can do this even with the Ignition skills (by making the ignition happen through a technique rather than a palette skill).

I personally wouldn't cry at all if the element-specific skills were taken out entirely. They're just so... gross. Pigeonholing you into using one single element at a time, never able to switch mid-mission because doing so is a waste of time... bleh. Disgusting.

[Omega-z]

That would be pretty nice to see the stat UP's being part of the class itself instead.

Hunter : +150 HP, +50 S-def, + 150 S-attack. (add +50 R-def)

Ranger : +150 Alb., +50 R-def, +100 R-attack. (add +50 HP, +20 PP)

Force : +20 PP, +220 T-attack, +50 T-def. (add +20 PP, +50 HP)

Fighter : +150 S-attack, +100 HP, +50 S-def. (add +20 PP, + 50 T-def)

Gunner : + 100 Alb., +50 HP, +150 R-attack, +100 R-def. (add +50 S-def)

Techer : +20 PP, +50 T-def, +50 S-attack, +100 T-attack. (add +150 HP, +50 S-def, +50 T-def, +50 S-attack)

Braver : +100 Alb., +50 S-attack, +50 R-attack. (add +50 HP, +50 S-attack, +50 R-attack)

That way the Tree's can be broken/combined up in each role.

[gigawuts]

Yes, please.

We really need all the general force/techer technique skills to be on their own branch of the tree. Y'know, stuff like the charge PP skills and the like should not be element-specific at all. Every element should have its own quirks, sure, but those should be baked into the techniques themselves rather than stuck into the element skill trees where they inevitably cause massive balance issues. You can do this even with the Ignition skills (by making the ignition happen through a technique rather than a palette skill).

I personally wouldn't cry at all if the element-specific skills were taken out entirely. They're just so... gross. Pigeonholing you into using one single element at a time, never able to switch mid-mission because doing so is a waste of time... bleh. Disgusting.

Yeah, masteries are understandable on force but they have to change it on techer. Either integrate masteries and extra bonuses (Wind Mastery = +20% wind tech damage, +20% wand gear damage) or create Techer Element Mastery, +20% damage to all 3 techer elements.

[Silver Crow]

Ranger and Hunter(sub) works exactly like that, though. And Braver. You want a good skill? It's right there. You want a logical continuation of that skill? It's right under it. Katana Gear is one of the very first things you can get.

Why shouldn't it be like that? Why does Gunner have to put points in THREE separate static stat skills in order to unlock Showtime, for example? Same thing with PP Slayer/Crazy Beat: buried beneath three trash skills nobody would ever want.

It essentially doubles the cost of skills that aren't even good on their own. That is bad design.

Meanwhile Hunter has FIVE purely offensive skills IN A ROW. That is bad design.

You have a point actually, but I still think people in this thread are making the Skill Tree's wayyy too convenient. Everyone feels they can do a better job than Sega. Maybe it's true. ionno.

My only issue with Sega, they need to add the option to make every combination of main-sub class viable. Like no tree should have a damage advantage, only a skill advantage like recovering PP whilst charging or doubling the PP of each attack. I really hate it that we have to sub Hunter to 90% of Ranged/Melee main classes.

[Lostbob117]

The hu's def tree needs to have more skills that max at 5 points since there are so many skills, however they need to keep the max stats they have.

[pkemr4]

Massive Hunter needs to live up to its name and double the character's size while it's active.

yes please. http://giantessbooru.com/_images/1ed16498bb71b466512467ac342a67dc/172818%20-%20boots%20color%20giantess%20gloves%20golden_eyes %20green_hair%20humanized_castle%20mega_giantess%2 0ornaments%20osaka_castle%20oshiro_collection%20ta n.jpg

[Zyrusticae]

You have a point actually, but I still think people in this thread are making the Skill Tree's wayyy too convenient. Everyone feels they can do a better job than Sega. Maybe it's true. ionno.

My only issue with Sega, they need to add the option to make every combination of main-sub class viable. Like no tree should have a damage advantage, only a skill advantage like recovering PP whilst charging or doubling the PP of each attack. I really hate it that we have to sub Hunter to 90% of Ranged/Melee main classes.
Absolutely.

The problem is that they insist on having conditional damage modifiers, which by definition are worse than regular always-on damage modifiers unless they completely eclipse them in impact. So do we throw out all the zero-range-advance shit and replace it, or take out ALL the regular damage modifiers and replace them all with conditional ones, or...?

Personally I wouldn't even mind if they took out damage modifier skills entirely and replaced them with more utility and playstyle stuff like the gears and the support skills. Damage modifiers are boring. You know which ones work because it's basic fucking arithmetic. They're not even remotely interesting. You just take them because you have to and that's that.

[cheapgunner]

Move elemental weakness hit, wind, light and dark elemental masteries to force. Make All 6 elementals, 10 sp each, going from 1.04 at lv 1 to 1.40 at lv 10. Photon Flare a stance, and possibly a reverse of wand reactors for Forces' rods. Take 40%~ of a rod's S-atk and pour it into their T-atk. That way, you don't need to touch PF at all.

[Triple_S]

There are too many skills to dump tons of points into for the amount of skill points we have. There are too many skills that require a ton of investment in undesirable and sometimes even unrelated skills to be worth going after without sacrificing a ton of other effective skills for that playstyle. There are too many skills that just aren't worth having unless they're maxed out, but then they become very useful (but you just lost ten freaking skill points).

[Sanguine2009]

Move elemental weakness hit, wind, light and dark elemental masteries to force. Make All 6 elementals, 10 sp each, going from 1.04 at lv 1 to 1.40 at lv 10. Photon Flare a stance, and possibly a reverse of wand reactors for Forces' rods. Take 40%~ of a rod's S-atk and pour it into their T-atk. That way, you don't need to touch PF at all.

and what would you give techer now that you gutted 70% of the skills that are usable?

[Triple_S]

I still really wish Techer would function better as a "spellsword." You still can't really combo with your magic in any neat and interesting ways.

It'd be neat if casting magic from your wand worked more like a PA, broken into category of tech rather than element (simple/gi/ra/etc). If Techer isn't meant to cast offensive magic like Force, then give Techer elemental PAs. Fuck yeah.

[cheapgunner]

and what would you give techer now that you gutted 70% of the skills that are usable?

The ability to double cast with two wands at the same time. :]

To be serious:

1. A skill that procs the 6 elemental SEs based on the element of your wand when using melee with it. And allows for SE stacking of 2 diff. SEs when applying a different elemental wand to a enemy with a different elemental SE on it.

2. A skill that lets you cast 2 support techs or 1 support + 1 offensive tech at the same time, for a 1.1x pp rate of the average of the 2 techs.

3. Move the bottom Skill that reduces pp cost for support techs up near the top.

4. Change Shifta Crit by adding an effect to make it boost the ceiling for crits by like 20%~ more damage ( lv 10 max ).

5. Change Territory burst at lv 10 so the range of support techs is increased by almost double of what techers with TB have atm.

6. A skill, similar to shifta and deband that you cast, that increases the movement speed of the caster for a limited time.

[Sanguine2009]

i like alot of those ideas, though i would add making shifta advance give something like a 20% damage bonus and perhaps something to allow pp regen while using support techs. maybe allow wands and gear to hit an additional hit box per wand gear level so techers are not completely sol vs bosses

[mctastee]

I only play hunter/braver, but...

All classes: Gears should be baseline. Their places on their respective trees can be replaced by skills that give bonuses to the gears. They could include one of the following bonuses:

-Increased rate of gear charge
-Increased damage if at full gear charge
-For any gears that decay over time have a skill that decreases gear decay

Edit: I realize for hunters and fighters, this may make it feel like you have to main a weapon, but with skill trees as they are, you barely have a choice on what to pick to be efficient anyway.

[SallySalSal]

Ranger
Killing Bonus: Restore PP when enemies nearby are killed
Sharp Shooter (new RA skill coming): Gain bonus damage the further away you are from the target.

What.

Also, FI should get a skill which allows them switch between Brave/Wise stances while on the move and without the 2 second animation thing so they can stay mobile and be constantly dishing out damage without having to worry about where they are facing for that damage penalty.

[cheapgunner]

The new fighter skill should let them auto-home in on targets like katana combat does. I mean, the whole point of the TD gear is staying in the air as long as possible for bosses and certain enemies and kill them. They gave Br an ability within KC that twin daggers needed. Hell, make it so all 3 Fi weapons can home in when locked on a target and performing a normal/ja pa or non-pa attack.

[Zipzo]

Move elemental weakness hit, wind, light and dark elemental masteries to force. Make All 6 elementals, 10 sp each, going from 1.04 at lv 1 to 1.40 at lv 10. Photon Flare a stance, and possibly a reverse of wand reactors for Forces' rods. Take 40%~ of a rod's S-atk and pour it into their T-atk. That way, you don't need to touch PF at all.

This is precisely the type of opinion I was referring to earlier. You literally just gutted the Techtor tree in the name of being a better FO sub.

You even suggested destroying Wand Reactor in favor of Rods when Techers don't even use Rods. I mean wtf?

[gigawuts]

Some ideas I've aggregated over the long while I've played this game.

This is a work in progress. Input welcome as always.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://puu.sh/7Xm4v.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

Skill Changes:
[SPOILER-BOX]Old Skill Changes:
[SPOILER-BOX]JA Bonus: 5% to 10% JA damage
Flash Guard: 10% to 20% Strike & Range Resist and 1% to 15% Tech Resist (Tech has delayed growth, going 1,2,3,4,5,7,9,12,15)
Step Advance: 0.11 to 0.20 seconds
Fury Stance: +20% damage at level 10 (deal with it)
Fury Critical: +10% to +20% crit rate
War Cry: 15 to 30 second duration, 120% to 200% hate, still 30 second cooldown
Massive Hunter: 20 to 35 Second Duration, 90 Second cooldown, no damage resistance
Iron Will: 35% to 75% chance to survive with 1 hp, unless you have 1 hp
Guard Stance: Same as now
Absorption: Same, just 5 SP less to max
Automate Halfline: 40% to 100% chance to automatically use a mate at 50% hp
[/SPOILER-BOX]
New Skills:
[SPOILER-BOX]Block-related Skills:
Normal Guard PP Save: Normal Guard PP cost reduced from 10 to 5/3/1
Just Guard Buff: Just Guarding applies one Shifta & Deband pulse (S&D 16, 20 seconds duration, stacks infinitely)
Just Guard Bonus: When Just Guarding you recover 1% to 7.5% HP and 5% to 15% PP

Fury-related Skills:
Gear Blast Bonus: Each gear bar grants +10% to +25% to PB Gauge fill rate [and damage?] (Fury Stance not required to be active)
Fury Charge Speed Up: -5% to -20% charge time for all chargeable attacks (PAs, Techs, Normals) during Fury Stance
Fury Gear Boost: +25% to +30% gear gained during Fury Stance
JA PP Save: -10 to -15% PP cost for all PAs & techs (Fury Stance not required to be active)

War Cry Skills:
Warzone: A field is projected around the player applying hate to nearby enemies continuously (1sp is low hate & the size of uncharged zondeel, 5 sp is medium hate & the size of territory burst charged zondeel)
En Garde: While holding a melee weapon, the enemy you target lock will feel Warzone's hate at any range

Massive Hunter Skills:
Resilient Pumper: Hyper armor during all fistpumps (Massive Hunter not required to be active)
Fast Pumper: All fistpumps animations are faster (Massive Hunter not required to be active)
Massive Charger: While Massive Hunter is active, charging an attack pauses Massive Hunter's countdown until attack is prepared

Iron Will Skills:
Sturdy Hunter: When at 100% to 95% hp Iron Will will always proc (Variance only because switching weapons with different affixes will change your max HP, but will leave that HP unhealed)

Guard-related Skills:
Status Tolerance: SE effects (shock's knockdown, freeze's...freeze, burn/poison's damage, etc.) have a 30-70% chance to do nothing to you (Guard Stance not required to be active)
Guard Time Bonus: When Guard Stance is active Massive Hunter, War Cry, and Never Give Up last 25-100% longer
Guard Gear Boost: When Guard Stance is active taking damage raises gear similar to how Mechgun gear is reduced (no flinch = small, flinch = medium, knockdown = large) (I can't base gains off of damage since better tanks take less damage)
Hated Hunter: +25% to +80% to all Hate (Yes, that includes War Cry & all of its related skills) (Guard Stance not required to be active)[/SPOILER-BOX][/SPOILER-BOX]

Goals:
Flesh out concepts, make sure things meet expectations
Allow players to choose the combinations of skills they want
Make sure things are able to be combined effectively
Reward specialization, but not too much
Make skills that can combine well with other classes

I focused on separating active or functional skills, so that you can pick and choose what you want and don't want in any combination (Maybe you want a glass cannon that won't be 1shotted, maybe you want offense with war cry, I don't know). Skills are good at 1 SP, and get better as you invest. Skills that shouldn't get better than a certain point (e.g. iron will), but don't warrant 10 sp for that point (e.g. iron will), are reduced to 5 SP. They usually expand into at least one additional skill that complements the parent skill. Handling JA Bonus sucked because Guard Stance users need a source of damage, but JA Bonus shouldn't be too powerful, and I don't really think 10% is worth 10 sp if it's unable to achieve the current +~100% damage (all combined multipliers reach +~60%). I want that extra SP to be spent on utility skills, the class should be about options and versatility.

There are some skills that are in Guard or Fury that I feel should be bonuses for players using those stances, but still available to users of the opposing stance if they want to invest for them. If someone really really really wants to do Fury, War Cry, and Hated Hunter for max aggro I won't tell them not to, but they won't get other goodies if they do it.

I had other ideas, but most of them would be better suited to other classes. Maybe I'll get around to those.

[Zyrusticae]

Thinking about it, I realized that they could do a lot of good by increasing the number of element specialization options.

For example, imagine they add more levels of mastery skills, while at the same time adding a bunch more Element Weak Hit levels. Now Forces and Techers have a choice: Either they specialize in Element Weak Hit and, by extension, switch elements constantly to match the target they're fighting, [i]or they can specialize in a single element entirely, eschewing the use of any of the other elements. (To be fair, you would have to add a bunch more Tech Charge Advance and Tech JA Advance to the Techer tree - right now it's quite heavily lopsided on Force's side.)

This handily solves the problem we have now whereby you're encouraged to stick with one element at a time by the element mastery skills, but at the same time you're encouraged to take advantage of elemental weaknesses with Element Weak Hit (plus the natural bonus from attacking element weaknesses). With these changes, you can either choose to do one, or the other... you simply don't have enough spare skill points to do both.

I'm also thinking that they would need to split the support options between Force and Techer, because seriously look at that Techer tree. Alternatively, you would have to take the Dark/Light/Wind parts out of the Techer tree but then what would you replace it with? (What a clusterfuck...)

Edit: Oh! Oh! They should also add an "Element Pierce Hit" that negates enemy element resistances up to a cap. For example, Dark Falz has massive resistance to dark element, but with this skill you should be able to cut it in half or even negate it entirely, allowing you to specialize further in dark techniques if you care to do so. It does nothing against enemies that already have a resistance of 0 to the element your using, so it would be useless to EWH builds.

[Kondibon]

Edit: Oh! Oh! They should also add an "Element Pierce Hit" that negates enemy element resistances up to a cap. For example, Dark Falz has massive resistance to dark element, but with this skill you should be able to cut it in half or even negate it entirely, allowing you to specialize further in dark techniques if you care to do so. It does nothing against enemies that already have a resistance of 0 to the element your using, so it would be useless to EWH builds.None of the enemies have elemental resistances specifically. They're all either resistant to everything, or resistant to certain damage types, but not elements. Otherwise that would be a cool idea. 3:

EDIT: I take that back, Falz actually is resistant to dark, but it might amuse you to know that he's even more resistant to wind. Still I don't think it's common enough to justify having a skill to bipass it.

MOAR EDIT: I take it back AGAIN. This seems like a boss thing. I'm still not sure how worth it it would be though.

[gigawuts]

Thinking about it, I realized that they could do a lot of good by increasing the number of element specialization options.

For example, imagine they add more levels of mastery skills, while at the same time adding a bunch more Element Weak Hit levels. Now Forces and Techers have a choice: Either they specialize in Element Weak Hit and, by extension, switch elements constantly to match the target they're fighting, [i]or they can specialize in a single element entirely, eschewing the use of any of the other elements. (To be fair, you would have to add a bunch more Tech Charge Advance and Tech JA Advance to the Techer tree - right now it's quite heavily lopsided on Force's side.)

This handily solves the problem we have now whereby you're encouraged to stick with one element at a time by the element mastery skills, but at the same time you're encouraged to take advantage of elemental weaknesses with Element Weak Hit (plus the natural bonus from attacking element weaknesses). With these changes, you can either choose to do one, or the other... you simply don't have enough spare skill points to do both.

I'm also thinking that they would need to split the support options between Force and Techer, because seriously look at that Techer tree. Alternatively, you would have to take the Dark/Light/Wind parts out of the Techer tree but then what would you replace it with? (What a clusterfuck...)

Edit: Oh! Oh! They should also add an "Element Pierce Hit" that negates enemy element resistances up to a cap. For example, Dark Falz has massive resistance to dark element, but with this skill you should be able to cut it in half or even negate it entirely, allowing you to specialize further in dark techniques if you care to do so. It does nothing against enemies that already have a resistance of 0 to the element your using, so it would be useless to EWH builds.

They should just give Techer Element Weak Boost, giving enemies up to 5% extra weakness across the board. Many enemies have 5% resistance to a couple random elements, so they'd stay resistant to that.

When enemies get real resistances worth noting they can expand on the concept.

[Macman]

When enemies get real resistances worth noting we get the plight of forces in PSO Episode 2 Ultimate (and Ultimate in general), where it's more efficient to be a melee force than a caster force.

[Zyrusticae]

When enemies get real resistances worth noting we get the plight of forces in PSO Episode 2 Ultimate (and Ultimate in general), where it's more efficient to be a melee force than a caster force.
...This is a bit extreme.

If there are resistances, there IS a gradation between 'nonexistent' and 'brick wall of death'. It's not an either-or proposition.

[Sanguine2009]

huhuhuhu~ when we get ultimate lv resists on mobs it will be techers time to shine!

[Chdata]

Thinking about it, I realized that they could do a lot of good by increasing the number of element specialization options.

For example, imagine they add more levels of mastery skills, while at the same time adding a bunch more Element Weak Hit levels. Now Forces and Techers have a choice: Either they specialize in Element Weak Hit and, by extension, switch elements constantly to match the target they're fighting, [i]or they can specialize in a single element entirely, eschewing the use of any of the other elements. (To be fair, you would have to add a bunch more Tech Charge Advance and Tech JA Advance to the Techer tree - right now it's quite heavily lopsided on Force's side.)

This handily solves the problem we have now whereby you're encouraged to stick with one element at a time by the element mastery skills, but at the same time you're encouraged to take advantage of elemental weaknesses with Element Weak Hit (plus the natural bonus from attacking element weaknesses). With these changes, you can either choose to do one, or the other... you simply don't have enough spare skill points to do both.

I'm also thinking that they would need to split the support options between Force and Techer, because seriously look at that Techer tree. Alternatively, you would have to take the Dark/Light/Wind parts out of the Techer tree but then what would you replace it with? (What a clusterfuck...)

Edit: Oh! Oh! They should also add an "Element Pierce Hit" that negates enemy element resistances up to a cap. For example, Dark Falz has massive resistance to dark element, but with this skill you should be able to cut it in half or even negate it entirely, allowing you to specialize further in dark techniques if you care to do so. It does nothing against enemies that already have a resistance of 0 to the element your using, so it would be useless to EWH builds.

I love everything about this. Either go with a mastery or weak elements.


Though I'd make pierce hit a thing for berzerker (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3110721&postcount=34) ;p

[ShinMaruku]

What's wrong with the skill trees? Too much skill bloat. Fury then fury up and and 2 then fury combo up? That means Sega had no idea what they were doing and should have never attempted this without oversight from people who know what to do.

Also somethings should be baseline and not speced into. like pp revival and the pp regen while charging, that should be a perk for selecting your class. As should just guard and Katana gear. Matter of fact all the gears should not be speced into. Also the stance ups do shit for their point cost throw them out. The PP up skills should be giving much more PP than they give. (Matter of fact a base of pp 100 when the game would scale up was stupid and ill-advised)

[qoxolg]

@Giga:
Great concept! I chuckled at the fist pumping skills. Maybe you should add another one that creates a Kanran like shockwave and knocks down all enemies surrounding you. Or maybe SEGA should just change all fist pumps to be like the Wand Lovers 'pump', except for Fury Stance, which should have a long charging time, Dragon Ball Z style :wacko: *RAAAAAAAAAAA.. RAAAAAAAAAA.. RAAAAA* "Dude, we are already at the boss tele!" "Wait, wait, I can still power up even further!"


I seriously hope for higher resistances in the next difficulty. This also includes striking and ranged resistances, but that requirements the whole idea of elemental masteries in the skill trees to be gone. You gain elemental boosts from either your weapon, latent and affixes. This will make switching element easier.

[Zorafim]

Not reading through this thread, I just think they should dump their skill trees. Instead of giving each class one skill point per level, give them a choice in what specialization they want, and just give them abilities based on that specialization.
For instance, hunter would be going around with base skills until a certain level. At this point, they gain a skill point, which they would invest in either fury or guard. Fury would give them a passive fury stance which increases in effectiveness as they level, and guard would give them a passive guard stance which increases in effectiveness as they level. Abilities like Iron Will and Flash Guard are learned automatically depending on level and specialization, and weapon gears are all learned at a certain level.

Why do I think this is better than what we have? Well, WoW said it best. When everyone picks the best option, it's no longer an option. Instead of rewarding you for planning, it punishes you for not planning. It increases complexity without increasing depth. Unless your tree is really simple and meaningful, it's just bad game design.


*RAAAAAAAAAAA.. RAAAAAAAAAA.. RAAAAA* "Dude, we are already at the boss tele!" "Wait, wait, I can still power up even further!"

I just wanted to point out that I smiled at the thought of this scene.

[Chdata]

The force skill tree will have a new special option.
All 6 elements appear in a circle.

-o---o
o-----o
-o---o

Allowing you to pick two, each costing 1 SP. Fire/Ice/Lightning/etc Specialist

Elemental Mastery 1
lv.10 is the 20% damage bonus

Element Unlock 1
Unlocks your first elemental mastery choice.
You must spend 1 SP on this before you can put any into one of the elemental masteries.

Elemental Mastery 2

Element Unlock 2
Unlocks your second elemental mastery choice.


Aside from things like Bolt Tech PP Save and Flame Tech S Charge, all "element mastery" skills will be combined into one that effect your elements as chosen in the skill above.

Wind/Dark/Light will be -removed- from the Techer tree (and replaced with that new stuff from Arksenth's thread ;P).

I'm working on making a skill tree picture like Giga's. I'd like the tree to be set up so you can only unlock the second element by the time you can actually unlock the techer subclass. (Needs a total of 30 skill points).


Alternatively, you can choose another side of the tree which handles Elemental Weakness Mastery and would effectively let you use all techs anywhere but without stuff like flame S charge or bolt tech PP save or the stuff below.

Photon Flare: lasts a little longer than PPC but with 30 second cooldown at lv.10
Increased to +400 or maybe +75% of your base T-atk (required to equip weapons). If you have 600 T-atk, it's +450. Another +200 from PFlare up. Or perhaps it could be your level x5. A level 30 force would get 150 and a level 65 force would get 325.

Wind Tech Multi Hit
Reduces hit intervals of wind techs, very much like the craft recipes out there.

Light Tech Smite
Enemies inflicted with panic by your techs explode in a flash of light after 5 seconds and every 5 after that.
The power of these explosions increases with SP. Each being a %age of the enemy's HP.
Does not stack with other player's panics.

Dark Tech Curse/Leech
Enemies inflicted with poison by your techs will heal you for their own poison damage.
The tickrate of your poison is also increased.
Poison chance is increased 1.5x.
Poison Ignition does not make enemies lose their poisoned status (or maybe it already doesn't?) and can spread the poison.

Ice Tech 2nd Charge
Unlocks a second level of Ice tech charging, similar to how some Sword PAs like Guilty Break work.
Level 1-10 determine the damage bonus offered by charging the ice tech to a second level.
1.1, 1.15, 1.2, 1.25, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 2

Freeze chance at the 2nd charge level is increased by 1.5x or something like that at any level.


I think this should satisfy everyone. If you want to make all spells viable, you can go with EWH. If you like a particular element, you can use it.

If SEGA wants to retain the incentive for people to buy multiple skill trees, this does it.

[redroses]

When I think about it, I personally would prefer if we had the GAS system from PSU again and they just removed skill trees. The GAS system added more to the classes then skilltrees do in PSO2. You could actually boost damage of specific weapons, or boost the damage of two handed or one handed weapons. Other things included increasing the range of attack or support technics, or letting some technics hitting multiple spots on enemies. It also included adding stats like atk up, or def up and some things like giving yourself and allies a regen effect.

In my opinion the GAS system was much better, it just let you customize your character much better and actually had benefits for picking different classes (as not all classes could get the same customization options).

If anybody is interested, here is a link to all the stuff that was in the GAS system:
http://psupedia.info/GAS.html

Look it through, it has some really nice things. Some things listed there wouldn't work in PSO2, because we have a different PA system, stats and stuff like that.

[Kilich]

Frankly, I'd make weapon gears into Mag like ability lists, freely resettable, and move some of the skills there.
Maybe even have different slots:
Potential slot
Weapon type slot that can be Dudu'ed if you want to change it. By weapon types I mean the three models of 3* weapons like: Breaker, Gigush, Sword.
Maybe class\subclass slot
And the generic ones. You can probably fit stat ups and some of the multipliers here.

[Chdata]

[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/CZ8SeAQ.png[/spoiler-box]

Edit: [spoiler-box]I'm surprised anyone thought this was real.

Sorry, I made it all up. Don't believe stuff that's not on the datamining forum or bumped.org[/spoiler-box]

Old skill changes:

Photon Flare
Duration 120s, cooldown 30s.
Increased to +400 or maybe +75% of your base T-atk (required to equip weapons). Or 5x your FO level.
HP penalty is 0.7 -> 0.8 instead of 0.8 -> 0.7

Photon Flare Advance
Also boosts the effects of After Burst

Rare Mastery Force
+50 T-atk for 1 SP, +75 for 11*

New skills added:

Element Unlock 1 & 2
Both of these allows you to spend one skill point in one of the 6 Element Specialist skills at the bottom.

Fire/Ice/Lightning/Wind/Light/Dark Specialist
Can only be learned in conjunction with Element Unlock 1 or 2.
This element will gain the effects of Elemental Mastery.

Elemental Mastery 1 & 2
1.2x dmg bonus to both of your mastered elements.

Elemental Boost
Replaces all of Burn/Freeze/Shock/Mirage/Panic/Poison Boost.
Has the same effect but with less SP cost overall.

PP Endless Revival
Requires Element Boost Lv.3 OR EWH 2 Lv.5
Note: I was thinking of switching the position of Photon Flare Boost and EWH2, and requiring PFlare Boost Lv.3
PP regeneration never pauses regardless of what you're doing.

Ice Tech 2nd Charge
Gain the abilities of Freeze Keep.
Freeze chance at the 2nd charge level is increased by 1.5x or something like that (same at any level).
Unlocks a second level of Ice tech charging, similar to how some Sword PAs like Guilty Break work.
Level 1-10 determine the damage bonus offered by charging the ice tech to a second level.
1.1, 1.15, 1.2, 1.25, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 2

Wind Tech Multi Hit
Reduces hit intervals of wind techs, very much like the craft recipes out there.

Light Tech Smite
Enemies inflicted with panic by your techs explode in a flash of light after 5 seconds and every 10 after that. Or 2 seconds --> 5 at lvl 10.
The power of these explosions increases with SP. Each being a %age of the enemy's HP up to 25%.
Explosions also cause stun.
Does not stack with other player's panics.

Dark Tech Curse
Enemies inflicted with poison by your techs will heal you for their own poison damage.
The tickrate of your poison is also increased. (Great against things like caterdrans especially).
Poison chance is increased 1.5x.

coming soon: Techer

[Kikikiki]

This thread is great, but I doubt that SEGA would understand half of these mechanics when they look at it.

[gigawuts]

Not reading through this thread, I just think they should dump their skill trees. Instead of giving each class one skill point per level, give them a choice in what specialization they want, and just give them abilities based on that specialization.
For instance, hunter would be going around with base skills until a certain level. At this point, they gain a skill point, which they would invest in either fury or guard. Fury would give them a passive fury stance which increases in effectiveness as they level, and guard would give them a passive guard stance which increases in effectiveness as they level. Abilities like Iron Will and Flash Guard are learned automatically depending on level and specialization, and weapon gears are all learned at a certain level.

Why do I think this is better than what we have? Well, WoW said it best. When everyone picks the best option, it's no longer an option. Instead of rewarding you for planning, it punishes you for not planning. It increases complexity without increasing depth. Unless your tree is really simple and meaningful, it's just bad game design.



I just wanted to point out that I smiled at the thought of this scene.

This is precisely correct, and the whole issue.

Classes aren't unique. They're about damage mods. That's it. This is due to a whole ton of factors, but mostly because the game is all about finding rares and minimal tanking ability unless you have a tank HU sub. There's no room for versatility. You need to kill as many enemies as fast as possible to try to get a rare drop.

Fixing all of that would be super easy, but probably not something Sega would go for.
1. Make enemies tankier, focus less on a dozen spawning at once and more on a handful spawning at once
2. Make drops more common to compensate for fewer enemies dying
3. Make enemies deal less damage. Right now a major part of going glass cannon is that even if you do tank up your gear you're still going to die stupidly fast to ordinary attacks. The most logical thing to do is kill or flinch an enemy before they can kill or flinch you, leading me to point 4
4. Reduce flinch significantly on both players and enemies. The "flinch or be flinched" model of combat is fucking boring.
5. PP should grow with your level (at a reasonably low rate), to permit more variety in unit affixing options (allowing tankier builds without crippling your PP pool)
6. Decide what classes should do, and then give them bonuses that do that. Focus on that. Pay attention to the game you're in charge of.

[Kondibon]

1. Make enemies tankier, focus less on a dozen spawning at once and more on a handful spawning at onceI disagree with this. I feel that doing so would make it even more important to minmax. I do think enemies shouldn't die as quickly, but decreasing the potential power of players would be a better all around solution. Some sort of level scaling would be nice though.

[gigawuts]

I disagree with this. I feel that doing so would make it even more important to minmax. I do think enemies shouldn't die as quickly, but decreasing the potential power of players would be a better all around solution. Some sort of level scaling would be nice though.

Cool let me pick a single step out of your multi-step plan and say I disagree with it when the rest of the steps give context to what makes that step work.

(hint: It's step 6. Step 6 is the one that, if you look at the post I quoted and just the step itself, indicates a rework of skilltrees.)

[Kondibon]

Cool let me pick a single step out of your multi-step plan and say I disagree with it when the rest of the steps give context to what makes that step work.

(hint: It's step 6. Step 6 is the one that, if you look at the post I quoted and just the step itself, indicates a rework of skilltrees.)I was saying that making enemies tankier wouldn't even be necessary if players weren't able to do so much damage in the first place. Unless you meant making them tanky based on the new meta after class adjustments.

[gigawuts]

I was saying that making enemies tankier wouldn't even be necessary if players weren't able to do so much damage in the first place. Unless you meant making them tanky based on the new meta after class adjustments.

Enemies shouldn't die so quick.

Adjusting the classes may not result in that goal.

If it does not, make enemies tankier.

If it does, don't.

Really, it's that simple. As long as enemies are effectively tankier it doesn't matter.

It never fails that every single time I post a list like that, where each step depends on other steps, that someone will show up and quote just one of the steps and take issue with it.

This is why most of the supposedly smart members of this community disappeared. You can't say anything without somebody taking issue with something out of context, while the context and a little bit of thought about said context addresses that.

edit: All that, plus this post from two pages ago covers your grievance (the multipliers combine up to ~60%, and I've already said previously that every class should hover around ~50% or so).

Some ideas I've aggregated over the long while I've played this game.

This is a work in progress. Input welcome as always.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://puu.sh/7Xm4v.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

Skill Changes:
[SPOILER-BOX]Old Skill Changes:
[SPOILER-BOX]JA Bonus: 5% to 10% JA damage
Flash Guard: 10% to 20% Strike & Range Resist and 1% to 15% Tech Resist (Tech has delayed growth, going 1,2,3,4,5,7,9,12,15)
Step Advance: 0.11 to 0.20 seconds
Fury Stance: +20% damage at level 10 (deal with it)
Fury Critical: +10% to +20% crit rate
War Cry: 15 to 30 second duration, 120% to 200% hate, still 30 second cooldown
Massive Hunter: 20 to 35 Second Duration, 90 Second cooldown, no damage resistance
Iron Will: 35% to 75% chance to survive with 1 hp, unless you have 1 hp
Guard Stance: Same as now
Absorption: Same, just 5 SP less to max
Automate Halfline: 40% to 100% chance to automatically use a mate at 50% hp
[/SPOILER-BOX]
New Skills:
[SPOILER-BOX]Block-related Skills:
Normal Guard PP Save: Normal Guard PP cost reduced from 10 to 5/3/1
Just Guard Buff: Just Guarding applies one Shifta & Deband pulse (S&D 16, 20 seconds duration, stacks infinitely)
Just Guard Bonus: When Just Guarding you recover 1% to 7.5% HP and 5% to 15% PP

Fury-related Skills:
Gear Blast Bonus: Each gear bar grants +10% to +25% to PB Gauge fill rate [and damage?] (Fury Stance not required to be active)
Fury Charge Speed Up: -5% to -20% charge time for all chargeable attacks (PAs, Techs, Normals) during Fury Stance
Fury Gear Boost: +25% to +30% gear gained during Fury Stance
JA PP Save: -10 to -15% PP cost for all PAs & techs (Fury Stance not required to be active)

War Cry Skills:
Warzone: A field is projected around the player applying hate to nearby enemies continuously (1sp is low hate & the size of uncharged zondeel, 5 sp is medium hate & the size of territory burst charged zondeel)
En Garde: While holding a melee weapon, the enemy you target lock will feel Warzone's hate at any range

Massive Hunter Skills:
Resilient Pumper: Hyper armor during all fistpumps (Massive Hunter not required to be active)
Fast Pumper: All fistpumps animations are faster (Massive Hunter not required to be active)
Massive Charger: While Massive Hunter is active, charging an attack pauses Massive Hunter's countdown until attack is prepared

Iron Will Skills:
Sturdy Hunter: When at 100% to 95% hp Iron Will will always proc (Variance only because switching weapons with different affixes will change your max HP, but will leave that HP unhealed)

Guard-related Skills:
Status Tolerance: SE effects (shock's knockdown, freeze's...freeze, burn/poison's damage, etc.) have a 30-70% chance to do nothing to you (Guard Stance not required to be active)
Guard Time Bonus: When Guard Stance is active Massive Hunter, War Cry, and Never Give Up last 25-100% longer
Guard Gear Boost: When Guard Stance is active taking damage raises gear similar to how Mechgun gear is reduced (no flinch = small, flinch = medium, knockdown = large) (I can't base gains off of damage since better tanks take less damage)
Hated Hunter: +25% to +80% to all Hate (Yes, that includes War Cry & all of its related skills) (Guard Stance not required to be active)[/SPOILER-BOX][/SPOILER-BOX]

Goals:
Flesh out concepts, make sure things meet expectations
Allow players to choose the combinations of skills they want
Make sure things are able to be combined effectively
Reward specialization, but not too much
Make skills that can combine well with other classes

I focused on separating active or functional skills, so that you can pick and choose what you want and don't want in any combination (Maybe you want a glass cannon that won't be 1shotted, maybe you want offense with war cry, I don't know). Skills are good at 1 SP, and get better as you invest. Skills that shouldn't get better than a certain point (e.g. iron will), but don't warrant 10 sp for that point (e.g. iron will), are reduced to 5 SP. They usually expand into at least one additional skill that complements the parent skill. Handling JA Bonus sucked because Guard Stance users need a source of damage, but JA Bonus shouldn't be too powerful, and I don't really think 10% is worth 10 sp if it's unable to achieve the current +~100% damage (all combined multipliers reach +~60%). I want that extra SP to be spent on utility skills, the class should be about options and versatility.

There are some skills that are in Guard or Fury that I feel should be bonuses for players using those stances, but still available to users of the opposing stance if they want to invest for them. If someone really really really wants to do Fury, War Cry, and Hated Hunter for max aggro I won't tell them not to, but they won't get other goodies if they do it.

I had other ideas, but most of them would be better suited to other classes. Maybe I'll get around to those.
I take it back though, not every post is nitpicked for one single detail. That post went largely ignored. I noticed a while ago that if you say input is welcome here people avoid your post like the plague.

[isCasted]

That post went largely ignored. I noticed a while ago that if you say input is welcome here people avoid your post like the plague.

I usually don't comment posts like that because it's either nothing to add or nothing to accept for me. I liked your idea, actually, so, seeing how you pointed at the part I underlined, I decided to contribute.

First of all, I think there are too many branches going out from the very first skill. Some subtrees should be merged. Gear skills, despite everyone here saying that they should be more accessible, should be more split too, just not too far.


JA Bonus: 5% to 10% JA damage
Please let it be one skill and not 2. As I pointed out earlier, strong dependance on Just Attacking sucks.


Fury Stance: +20% damage at level 10 (deal with it)
I'd prefer it be +30% all damage to enemies for 20% all damage to you, while Fury Up skill increases exclusively striking damage. But I am not sure what drawbacks it can cause (I doubt it can be worse than what we have now).


Guard Stance: Same as now
People in this thread already explained why it sucks as it is now, and I think even in context of your skills it won't be any better like that.


Normal Guard PP Save: Normal Guard PP cost reduced from 10 to 5/3/1
Sounds like a skill for noobs... I like it because other games can have noob/pro build variations.


Just Guard Buff: Just Guarding applies one Shifta & Deband pulse (S&D 16, 20 seconds duration, stacks infinitely)
Just Guard Bonus: When Just Guarding you recover 1% to 7.5% HP and 5% to 15% PP
Guess that works.


Fury Charge Speed Up: -5% to -20% charge time for all chargeable attacks (PAs, Techs, Normals) during Fury Stance
Massive Charger: While Massive Hunter is active, charging an attack pauses Massive Hunter's countdown until attack is prepared
Charge-related skills is what Hunter really missing right now.


JA PP Save: -10 to -15% PP cost for all PAs & techs (Fury Stance not required to be active)
Win. I'm glad there can be purpose for JAs other than damage boost.


Guard-related Skills
With that stuff Guard Stance may actually get a purpose. I think Status Tolerance and/or Hated Hunter should be Guard Stance-related skills, then it might even shine. Fury Stance has 4 supporting skills, while Guard Stance - only 3.

[gigawuts]

[SPOILER-BOX]I usually don't comment posts like that because it's either nothing to add or nothing to accept for me. I liked your idea, actually, so, seeing how you pointed at the part I underlined, I decided to contribute.

First of all, I think there are too many branches going out from the very first skill. Some subtrees should be merged. Gear skills, despite everyone here saying that they should be more accessible, should be more split too, just not too far.


Please let it be one skill and not 2. As I pointed out earlier, strong dependance on Just Attacking sucks.


I'd prefer it be +30% all damage to enemies for 20% all damage to you, while Fury Up skill increases exclusively striking damage. But I am not sure what drawbacks it can cause (I doubt it can be worse than what we have now).


People in this thread already explained why it sucks as it is now, and I think even in context of your skills it won't be any better like that.


Sounds like a skill for noobs... I like it because other games can have noob/pro build variations.


Guess that works.


Charge-related skills is what Hunter really missing right now.


Win. I'm glad there can be purpose for JAs other than damage boost.


With that stuff Guard Stance may actually get a purpose. I think Status Tolerance and/or Hated Hunter should be Guard Stance-related skills, then it might even shine. Fury Stance has 4 supporting skills, while Guard Stance - only 3.[/SPOILER-BOX]

This is more helpful.

Gears shouldn't even be skills, but for the time being they are. I'm taking that one step at a time.

For your reasoning: Why should gears be skills? Why should half of a weapon's function be barricaded behind SP you might not even use? They were originally part of the core weapon and not even on skilltrees, but Sega decided they wanted to use gears to sell extra skilltrees. I mean, they even said this when they changed it (Okay, so they said they want gears to be part of "character customization" or somesuch, aka "you need to spend money to get them all and still be versatile and powerful")

Re: Making Fury stronger, I can't fully agree because the multipliers would be too high. I didn't mention damage taken because I hadn't decided on it, and I don't really think it's a point of significant contention. 10% more damage taken sounds decent I guess. The damage bonus is at 20% (Ideally for all damage, like Average Stance) because anything higher would be too much. JA Bonus is there because, as I said, Guard Stance players may want to grab some offense and they should have the option to. It was the only way to split things up. I considered merging JAB 1 & 2, but this was just simpler to convey via image.

This isn't a tree where you're meant to get everything - you're meant to get some things, the ones that will complement your playstyle. The guard tree doesn't have another skill because it really didn't warrant it; You're not even meant to fill in the Guard tree, instead guard builds should focus on getting extra utility skills (whereas a fury build will get just 1 utility skill, a guard build will get 1 healing skill and then partially/fully invest into 2 or even all 3 utility skills).

[Zenobia]

I said this before and I'll say it again the one they did that made me lol was give Katana an automatic JG function before HU. In PSP2 you had just Guard and that wasn't need invets SP in so why this on is beyond me.

JG should not be an SP investment it you be integrated into the weapon as well as their gears, but there is one thing that is on my mind GU was practically shit before S roll JA came which was the brawn of their damage tbh I don't think they should tone that skill down cause as always most of the problem comes from Hu's furtherance.

As for why Sega decided to nerf that is beyond my mind I dunno.

[isCasted]

Gears shouldn't even be skills, but for the time being they are. I'm taking that one step at a time.

I agree that gears shouldn't be on skill tree, but access to them shouldn't be that easy if they are on it after all. When I started playing, I saw ingame tutorials talking about skills like gears, Step Attack and Just Guard and showing me that they are essential. I thought those meant to be like that for 2 reasons:
1) teaching player to use skill trees;
2) making player learn every class mechanic one-by-one after tutorial mission.

And I would tolerate that if subclassing mechanic didn't create problem of skill duplication. Dodge/Reversal skills should be defaulted, but they still weren't for the sake of backwards compatibility (coz devs are too lazy to convert everyone's skills to new format. I hope that this problem will be solved during this 6-month execution of balancing plan). Case of Braver not requiring a skill to perform Just Guard/Counter is really odd - they kinda wanted to avoid duplication with Hunter's skill, but also wanted it to be usable with other subclasses. It would be logical to remove that from Hunter's tree too, but, again, convertation "problems".


Re: Making Fury stronger, I can't fully agree because the multipliers would be too high. I didn't mention damage taken because I hadn't decided on it, and I don't really think it's a point of significant contention. 10% more damage taken sounds decent I guess. The damage bonus is at 20% (Ideally for all damage, like Average Stance) because anything higher would be too much. JA Bonus is there because, as I said, Guard Stance players may want to grab some offense and they should have the option to. It was the only way to split things up. I considered merging JAB 1 & 2, but this was just simpler to convey via image.

Extra non-fury conditional damage bonus can be anything other than another JA bonus. For example, bonus for standing still/on the ground/other idea like that. But, as it was said earlier many times by other people, skill that isn't just a damage modifier could be better.

As for Fury Stance power/penalty, I think there should be conditions when you should want to use neither Fury nor Guard stances (I am afraid it's not how other games handle stances, but it's an active skill after all), so pros and cons of both should be noticable.


As for why Sega decided to nerf that is beyond my mind I dunno.

Because it ruins combo system and renders most basic TMG PAs useless, because they can't have a good use after a flip. It is a very lazy way to fix things that only lead to breaking other things.

[Zenobia]

Because it ruins combo system and renders most basic TMG PAs useless, because they can't have a good use after a flip. It is a very lazy way to fix things that only lead to breaking other things.

Wrong S roll JA didn't ruin it Fury-stance tree did, did you know Gu's damage was complete shit without S roll JA? Pretty sure Giga has said this plenty as well as me they need to fix fury-stance before anything else cause that's where a lot of Gu's damage comes from, S roll JA doesn't need to be touched reason everyone subs Hu for what it's for...damage fodder. Fix that and you fix GU maybe some other things as well simple but sega MIGHT make or break that cause they cannot balance.

As far as combos go plenty in here who have played GU combo even I do so I dunno what you're talking about.

Messiah Time, Infinity Fire, Heel stab., Satellite Aim, Elder Rebellion, Shift Period are the moves you will be flipping with.

[ShinMaruku]

The gears for all classes should be tossed out and made baseline to the class you pick. Also just guard the other defensive skills should also be baseline, that should not be any part of any skill tree. I think when they decided to add skill trees the team went insane and put some really questionable point sinks without thinking how it would effect things farther on in the game when they added more things. Sometimes they should have erred with the simpler things because as you add more simpler would be easier to manage than what we have now.

[Zipzo]

Please let it be one skill and not 2. As I pointed out earlier, strong dependance on Just Attacking sucks.

Elements of combat proficiency should absolutely be based on JAs, isCasted. JAs add a variable form of controlled skill to the combat system that you must always be taking advantage of. To scale damage in a way that JAs are either just neat-o to have or worse, not necessary would essentially destroy a huge fundamental part of the core of why combat in PSO2 demands any attention to detail at all.

I'm of the stance that whatever the answers to our issues are, it can't have anything to do with making anything easier than it already is.

[gigawuts]

I agree with both of you to a degree. I'd like to see more emphasis placed on JA, just not necessarily damage.

I also dislike scattering a ton of conditional damage bonuses across a class's tree. Like, Gunner for instance. Aerial Advance, Perfect Keeper, and ZRA? Individually, sure, they're fine. But don't try to balance a class around doing all three of those things at once. If you do, the class will never be good. If you don't, should you make the multipliers powerful on their own? If you don't, make them 5 SP. If you do, eventually they WILL all be usable at once due to some unforeseen circumstance. If you don't, why have them?

So I'd rather just take out the middle man and not make things more convoluted.

With that said, I do have other bonuses in mind that aren't conditional per se, but aren't always on either. Skills for weapons, not distances or juggling or JA. Things like Dualist, a skill for Fighter that boosts twin weapons. Twin Daggers, Knuckles, Wired Lances, and Twin Mechguns would all get a boost - of preferably 15% or up to 35%. Fi/Gu becomes a bit more viable, Knuckles/Daggers/Wired Lances get a boost, which they kind of need at times. There would of course be other similar skills for different classes, like Two-Handed for Hunter, which would boost an assortment of two handed weapons including Rods.

[qoxolg]

This is precisely correct, and the whole issue.

Classes aren't unique. They're about damage mods. That's it. This is due to a whole ton of factors, but mostly because the game is all about finding rares and minimal tanking ability unless you have a tank HU sub. There's no room for versatility. You need to kill as many enemies as fast as possible to try to get a rare drop.

Fixing all of that would be super easy, but probably not something Sega would go for.
1. Make enemies tankier, focus less on a dozen spawning at once and more on a handful spawning at once
2. Make drops more common to compensate for fewer enemies dying
3. Make enemies deal less damage. Right now a major part of going glass cannon is that even if you do tank up your gear you're still going to die stupidly fast to ordinary attacks. The most logical thing to do is kill or flinch an enemy before they can kill or flinch you, leading me to point 4
4. Reduce flinch significantly on both players and enemies. The "flinch or be flinched" model of combat is fucking boring.
5. PP should grow with your level (at a reasonably low rate), to permit more variety in unit affixing options (allowing tankier builds without crippling your PP pool)
6. Decide what classes should do, and then give them bonuses that do that. Focus on that. Pay attention to the game you're in charge of.

Good point.

Just a thought, but I was thinking of maybe having a ranking system like the Devil May Cry games, based on style, to give a significant boost in drop rate. So if you have 4 beavers spamming Shunka, all you get is a D rank at best. if skills and PA's get mixed, you can get an higher rank.

Tankier enemies would help with that.

[Sacrificial]

I love how more people post their tree idea's as pictures instead just barking at each other with words after my holy paint art.

@chdata
yeap, that is a nice version. You actually have a choice for what kind of element caster you want to be in there.

@giga
I like that hunter version, you can still decide if you need certain core stats, hybrid is a lot more workable with that as you can go around half in both path(if i assume my quick calculation is correct. And going deep into on of the two for the "specialist" skills is still an option, however i think the flash guards should be a lil deeper imo.

On your last post:
all is good but don't forget that almost all attacks from mobs here are AoE, that would need to be adjusted too. That or the tanky role's block should gives some kind of barrier against the AoE effect behind the tank.