etiquette... doesn't exist

[夏目静香]

foreigners often doesn't practice it in this game...
I know a lot of you guys do know the basic ones...
but based on my experience, etiquette of foreigners in this game is just terrible.
i facepalm everytime someone does something embarrassing in the chat (well I always feel embarrassed about it... I don't know about you guys... )
japanese players are very good at ignoring stuff...but don't you know that it is a bit uncomfortable for them? (you are all scaring us! hahaha)

Typical gaijin chat in this game:
(in lobby chat or emergency quest)
gaijin #1: Hi!
gaijin #2: OMG hi!
gaijin #3: you here too! wow!
(insert more lines)
...
mmm, there is something called a whisper chat if you guys are going to talk like this is like an irc chat...
I know some jps do chat like that too but not in a very crowded place...
and er who cares...it is a japanese game :)
...
not being against all foreign players, I have a lot of gaijin friends.
but this stereotype that they lack any manners is being very common in this game that I don't know what to believe anymore
when I do teach etiquette to foreigners, I end up being hated... like I hate them from the start but I really don't. I just want them to know the basic manners... (I mean at least say yoroshiku when joining a pt)
...
I also get annoyed by people complaining how this game is not gaijin friendly...
partially sega's fault for not putting an ip block or something which they should if they really want to solve something ... :)
...
anyway, when I see a foreigner in the game who does spam the chat, I often just ignore them like the rest...
every other jp player just shrugs it off and have that awkward moment...
...or I just do what most of them do if they become really annoying, put them in my ever growing black list of foreign players... :)

[pkemr4]

this wouldnt be a problem if the JP's actually told players or Try to tell them in broken english to use whisper chat instead of just ignoreing it and let keep going.

[Z-0]

Yes, the Japanese should somehow tell the English players to use Whisper, using their extensive and broad knowledge of English.

・・・

[Gardios]

Trying to have a conversation with more than two persons with whispers doesn't work. Sorry, but if SEGA didn't want you to talk in the lobby, they wouldn't have bothered making lobbies in the first place.

[Lostbob117]

Trying to have a conversation with more than two persons with whispers doesn't work. Sorry, but if SEGA didn't want you to talk in the lobby, they wouldn't have bothered making lobbies in the first place.

They could always start a party.

[pkemr4]

Yes, the Japanese should somehow tell the English players to use Whisper, using their extensive and broad knowledge of English.

・・・

good point... but still there are some JP's in B10-12 that speak some english that could tell them that

[Daiyousei]

Typically I only chat up in party or team if a group is needed, or those conversations that happen in rooms. Most of my conversations are 1 on 1 anyways so whisper would work, as for larger groups I have those people on Skype so I can even talk out of game because I play in windowed mode.

Also hi Shizu-nyan

[Triple_S]

I just don't talk much. Already shy enough in-game, but if a JP player joins I feel really embarrassed and don't know what I should do so I just play and use rudimentary knowledge to follow any suggestions they give during harder missions (say, TD).

Usually makes people happy. Though, I still feel bad about this one time someone said something that basically was "thanks for the party," and though that's what I was sure they said I panicked and just used an appropriate lobby action before we all left.


Honestly even if I continued learning the language on my own I'd be too afraid to use it, for basically no reason :P

[jooozek]

everyone, calm down
its just a weeaboo

[Shadowth117]

foreigners often doesn't practice it in this game...
I know a lot of you guys do know the basic ones...
but based on my experience, etiquette of foreigners in this game is just terrible.
i facepalm everytime someone does something embarrassing in the chat (well I always feel embarrassed about it... I don't know about you guys... )
japanese players are very good at ignoring stuff...but don't you know that it is a bit uncomfortable for them? (you are all scaring us! hahaha)

Typical gaijin chat in this game:
(in lobby chat or emergency quest)
gaijin #1: Hi!
gaijin #2: OMG hi!
gaijin #3: you here too! wow!
(insert more lines)
...
mmm, there is something called a whisper chat if you guys are going to talk like this is like an irc chat...
I know some jps do chat like that too but not in a very crowded place...
and er who cares...it is a japanese game :)
...
not being against all foreign players, I have a lot of gaijin friends.
but this stereotype that they lack any manners is being very common in this game that I don't know what to believe anymore
when I do teach etiquette to foreigners, I end up being hated... like I hate them from the start but I really don't. I just want them to know the basic manners... (I mean at least say yoroshiku when joining a pt)
...
I also get annoyed by people complaining how this game is not gaijin friendly...
partially sega's fault for not putting an ip block or something which they should if they really want to solve something ... :)
...
anyway, when I see a foreigner in the game who does spam the chat, I often just ignore them like the rest...
every other jp player just shrugs it off and have that awkward moment...
...or I just do what most of them do if they become really annoying, put them in my ever growing black list of foreign players... :)

I mean, you gotta understand here dude. You say "etiquette", but what's considered etiquette varies between cultures. People from outside Japan often have no clue at all about the nuances of Japanese culture. Some of us do, but there's definitely a bunch who just don't even see why that's wrong. Even if you do tell them, a lot of this goes on as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocentrism
which makes it hard to even get said people to really get it because they just see the Japanese rules as stupid.

That ain't everybody of course. But you're actually displaying the same ethnocentrism in a way for calling foreigners all rude. Of course I'd say you're somewhat justified. There are definitely a good number of people who really *should* know better at this point.

And on a side note, as far as stupid lobby chat goes I've totally seen JP players talk about very dumb things in the lobby as well before. And maybe you guys don't care so much if the silly talk is in JP. But its misleading for foreign players who see something being spoken and think "Oh, someone is saying stuff in the lobby. That must be okay.". The connection of "Oh wait, Japanese is fine, but English is not in this situation." isn't going to come naturally to the average person I don't think.

[Chdata]

This is exactly like American players being annoyed at Russian or Spanish players in games who are not speaking English.

People speaking any language do not care that other people cannot read their own language and don't see it as embarrassing in any way to be speaking their own language, even if they are a minority of a certain game's community.

And some of us react the same way against people who speak other languages. I usually just ignore or mute Spanish/Russian stuff on mic/chat and play the game.

[Shinamori]

I've always found, based on my own person experiences, that etiquette hardly exists in any online game. That is unless you run with a good group of people.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

WE'RE UNDER ATTACK!

[Chdata]

Don't worry guys, soon we'll be able to buy name changes and look more japanese too.

From what I heard, people in the 2ch threads were just blaming each other for being bad at TD2. I dunno if that's true or not but...

Going around blaming each other is pretty useless. Not gonna see me wake up and try to find where to post to yell at Japanese players for the mistakes or ignorance they hold. I'd sooner be scouring poorly google translated stuff to find more TD2 strategies and whatnot.

[Sizustar]

Don't worry guys, soon we'll be able to buy name changes and look more japanese too.

From what I heard, people in the 2ch threads were just blaming each other for being bad at TD2. I dunno if that's true or not but...

Going around blaming each other is pretty useless. Not gonna see me wake up and try to find where to post to yell at Japanese players for the mistakes or ignorance they hold. I'd sooner be scouring poorly google translated stuff to find more TD2 strategies and whatnot.

People are blaming everyone, but the one that can't speak back and understood is the easiest scapegoat, aka. English players.

[gigawuts]

People are blaming everyone, but the one that can't speak back and understood is the easiest scapegoat, aka. English players.

To be fair though, every time I'm in an MPA with 10 players named Kirito and Naribo I already know we're going to squeak out with 2 towers and 2 runs. And it always ends up that way. I don't blame JPs for abandoning blocks full of players speaking english in lobbies.

[Chdata]

To be fair though, every time I'm in an MPA with 10 players named Kirito and Naribo I already know we're going to squeak out with 2 towers and 2 runs. And it always happens.

Under that scenario I just leave and start the quest again and completely skip a run (I wouldn't have gotten drops anyway).

Plus if you do that, whoever finishes TD the fastest will flood into your waiting MPA.

[Sizustar]

To be fair though, every time I'm in an MPA with 10 players named Kirito and Naribo I already know we're going to squeak out with 2 towers and 2 runs. And it always ends up that way. I don't blame JPs for abandoning blocks full of players speaking english in lobbies.

So it's the casual english and Japanese player that are failing the TD2?

[Punisher106]

I cringe hardcore whenever I see english, nay, latin-based characters in white in my chat log. I whisper when I'm talking to another english player I'm near,provided we're not in the same team or party. I mean, there are some of us that respect the JP etiquette of lobby behavior and whatnot, if not a lot of us, so non-JP players shouldn't really be judged from being outside of the US. GRANTED, HOWEVER, they view us like we view BR players in english games. It's best to keep that in mind.

[gigawuts]

So it's the casual english and Japanese player that are failing the TD2?

I would say it's the uncoordinated players, and players who aren't interested in learning. The ones that just do their thing, and don't care what comes of it.

Players like that exist in every country, it's just that the english ones are loud in lobbies. I couldn't tell you what to look for if you want to see which JPs are like that, besides inspecting gear and stuff.

[isCasted]

This is exactly like American players being annoyed at Russian or Spanish players in games who are not speaking English.

In all online games I ever played I always was embarrassed that Russian-speaking players do that. That made me feel as if we were raised in different environments, I didn't get how they didn't understand those things how I did. Not just that, but also they said "Fuck you, I do what I want" when I tried to tell them why it's bad.

I see same tendention among average B20ians - they speak stuff like "Hey, B12! I'm back!", discuss their own problems there or spam random phrases that just piss people off, and when anyone dares to tell them that it's not right, you immediately hear "Fuck you, I do what I want".


People speaking any language do not care that other people cannot read their own language and don't see it as embarrassing in any way to be speaking their own language, even if they are a minority of a certain game's community.

It's annoying. Even if you ignore the part with "secrecy" of those talks, it's still and informational noise, just like "..." chat boxes - they say nothing to you but they are still there and you can do nothing about it without interfering.

[Galax]

Little presuming to say etiquette doesn't exist based only on JP etiquette and then to basically say that absolutely no EN players use it...

At least, that's what I got out of the OP here.

[Sizustar]

I would say it's the uncoordinated players, and players who aren't interested in learning. The ones that just do their thing, and don't care what comes of it.

Players like that exist in every country, it's just that the english ones are loud in lobbies. I couldn't tell you what to look for if you want to see which JPs are like that, besides inspecting gear and stuff.

True, player that don't know how to do it, but if they listen once other tell them how to do it, is fine.
Those that don't listen, and answer back, lol or I play how I want to play is not as good.

[Chdata]

In all online games I ever played I always was embarrassed that Russian-speaking players do that. That made me feel as if we were raised in different environments, I didn't get how they didn't understand those things how I did. Not just that, but also they said "Fuck you, I do what I want" when I tried to tell them why it's bad.

I see same tendention among average B20ians - they speak stuff like "Hey, B12! I'm back!", discuss their own problems there or spam random phrases that just piss people off, and when anyone dares to tell them that it's not right, you immediately hear "Fuck you, I do what I want".

It's annoying. Even if you ignore the part with "secrecy" of those talks, it's still and informational noise, just like "..." chat boxes - they say nothing to you but they are still there and you can do nothing about it without interfering.

Only hearing it on mic annoys me but then I can just mute them in any good game.

As for text, being bothered by text is silly. I pay too much attention to the actual game to even notice text that isn't related to a drop or E-trial. I also never really notice those [...] boxes.

So basically, I don't understand the mindset that it's a source of embarrassment for you, or for anyone else, for people to just talk in their own language. Obviously people of other races exist, right?

The only thing I think is stupid are people who look for VH/SH TACO parties in B10 or B11. You're not going to find anyone to join you there! And incidentally I never see them do. They all give up. They all could have just gone to b20 if they wanted to advert in English and were OK with partying with English randoms and gotten a fully party in 5 minutes instead of an hour of nothing.

Or they could learn how to party with JP.

[gigawuts]

True, player that don't know how to do it, but if they listen once other tell them how to do it, is fine.
Those that don't listen, and answer back, lol or I play how I want to play is not as good.

Yeah, I don't think it's an issue of nationality. I think it's an issue of visibility. There are bad players everywhere, but the EN ones insist on lobby rats.

I have bad runs with JPs all the time - I just can't predict it based on their names, like I can with EN names. That said, there are also plenty of EN names I can recognize and know will be decent players.

[jooozek]

its all thanks to that spoiled "freedom of speech" that americans like to boast about

[Chdata]

Should we be yelling at JP players for speaking Japanese publicly in lobbies?

Are there any Eng players offended by JP that do that?

I mean, when I end up partying with JP names I at least turn off my autowords.

[gigawuts]

Should we be yelling at JP players for speaking Japanese publicly in lobbies?

Are there any Eng players offended by JP that do that?

Are there any JP that do that?

I've seen, like, five JPs do that. Ever.

[Daiyousei]

I found that they tend to chat more in blocks like playstyle free.

[Chdata]

I dunno, I see it every once in a while.

Spanish is admittedly a little more annoying to see in text form than anything else just because they use an alphabet I can recognize which draws my attention more to their nothingness than ascii characters I already can't read and thus can ignore easier.

[Shinamori]

I just see them play Visphone Online.

[Triple_S]

Really, it's not hard to party with JP players. You just have to go into the mission already knowing what to do because unless you have key phrases lined up, you're not going to be communicating.

Pay attention to team health in case you need to try and heal or revive. Try to learn common phrases and what they mean, and learn to type them if you can to make things even easier. And most importantly, if you absolutely have to say something in English, keep it simple but not offensive. With Tower Defense, use the color codes to help indicate what tower you're talking about. Symbol Art can also be used awesomely.


Sadly a lot of people drop the ball with this really hardcore.

[DJcooltrainer]

If Sega didn't want people to talk in PSO2, they wouldn't have included a chat option. I see Japanese players chatting publicly in lobby a lot. Granted, it's not as common as I see with English speaking players, what's the big deal? Is having to see someone else typing really that big of an inconvenience to you?

Many Western players enjoy playing online games to meet people, have fun with their friends, and even make new friends. If it really bothers you, switch to a different block. There are plenty of them that are usually empty.

[Arkanoid]

They should make special blocks where the chat function in lobbies doesn't exist for anyone who somehow gets offended by this or pretends to be offended so they can fit in. All the normal people who play other games and understand that people in an online game that anyone in the world can access are going to talk out loud in various languages in the public lobby made for people to be together in, with a chat channel made for people nearby to hear can stay off of those blocks.

[gigawuts]

If Sega didn't want people to talk in PSO2, they wouldn't have included a chat option. I see Japanese players chatting publicly in lobby a lot. Granted, it's not as common as I see with English speaking players, what's the big deal? Is having to see someone else typing really that big of an inconvenience to you?

Many Western players enjoy playing online games to meet people, have fun with their friends, and even make new friends. If it really bothers you, switch to a different block. There are plenty of them that are usually empty.

It's not a matter of what Sega does or does not want; it's a matter of japanese culture, and being that this is a japanese game filled with japanese players doing things that they don't normally do in direct exposure to lots of players will be seen as a negative thing.

Think of it like doing a gay parade in a retirement community in the middle of Mississippi. They won't like it very much. It's not wrong, and it's not illegal, but it's easy to see that it won't be very welcome by the people who, you know, are actually meant to be there.

Anyway, they should get with the decade century computer age and let us create chat channels to invite people to. Seriously, chat channels have existed almost as long as modems. Or...maybe even longer. I dunno.

[Coreven]

if you guys are going to talk like this is like an irc chat...

But I do treat public chat like an IRC channel. An average of one word every two weeks.

Well, aside from the autowords /a <me> <pos> <hp> when rip and /a ありがとー when rez in MPAs.

[landman]

Can someone explain what is wrong about speaking your language in public? if you can't understand it then it is clear it is not pointed to you, most people I've meet in the game that speak my language was because me or someone of my team greeted the team, and instead of team chat, they used public chat, and someone read it and was interested.

Being annoyed because you can't understand what a third person is saying to a fourth I can only consider it as an intolerant act. If I'm looked bad because I'm talking to my mother in a different language than the one people around me know then it's their problem (and this happens in my own country by just travelling a little, as it has one common language and many other regional languages)

[Yamishi]

I kinda get what OP is saying, though. Have you ever been to a Quna concert on B020?

[Arkanoid]

I kinda get what OP is saying, though. Have you ever been to a Quna concert on B020?

But B20 is like the "social tards" zone of PSO2. This place exists on every MMO game, a bunch of people spamming non-stop about pretty much nothing.

[Sanguine2009]

its an issue because technically we are not even suppose to be playing, so yes proper etiquette is to keep a low profile and keep it to party/team/whisper if at all possible either that or go to b20 where no one cares. failure to do so can be considered very rude

[isCasted]

Anyway, they should get with the decade century computer age and let us create chat channels to invite people to. Seriously, chat channels have existed almost as long as modems. Or...maybe even longer. I dunno.

I believe that's what different blocks, personal rooms and those obscure bars in Shop Area are for. But SEGA didn't expect people to gather in filled blocks at quest counter.

This is a problem of lobby system. You shouldn't be thrown out of the game because you were in different lobby.

[Coreven]

It's not an issue about how we're not supposed to be playing, it's about proper etiquette. They have nothing to do with each other.

[gigawuts]

I believe that's what different blocks, personal rooms and those obscure bars in Shop Area are for. But SEGA didn't expect people to gather in filled blocks at quest counter.

This is a problem of lobby system. You shouldn't be thrown out of the game because you were in different lobby.

If that's why those things exist then Sega has a lot more to learn about online game design than any of us feared.

[reptile7383]

It's not a matter of what Sega does or does not want; it's a matter of japanese culture, and being that this is a japanese game filled with japanese players doing things that they don't normally do in direct exposure to lots of players will be seen as a negative thing.


And this thread is back to Ethnocentrism. You say its a Japanese game, but in my view it, like all other online games, is an international game with international players. As such I've long since learned to not swear these cultural problems whether I'm part of the majority playing with Brazilian players or when I'm part of the minority playing with Japanese players.

Sure I'm sure someone will eventually point out the ToS that says we aren't allowed to play, but honestly that's no different than the traffic sign saying that the speed limit is 60mph while everybody is driving 75mph. Some rules simply don't reflect how something actually is.

[gigawuts]

And this thread is back to Ethnocentrism.
No, it's not, and if you'd bother to read past the part that gets you flustered you might have seen that. It's not a matter of judging, it's a matter of behavior, and understanding the difference between things based on context.

You say its a Japanese game
It is

but in my view it, like all other online games, is an international game
It was not created to be, and they ignore the issue since we're paying them to

Sure I'm sure someone will eventually point out the ToS that says we aren't allowed to play, but honestly that's no different than the traffic sign saying that the speed limit is 60mph while everybody is driving 75mph. Some rules simply don't reflect how something actually is.

Except for, you know, cops giving tickets to people who go 15 over the limit.

[DJcooltrainer]

It's not an issue about how we're not supposed to be playing, it's about proper etiquette. They have nothing to do with each other.

'Etiquette' is such a subjective word, though. What is considered proper etiquette will vary from culture to culture, even on the person you happen to ask. To be mad at any player, English speaking or not, speaking with their friends in public, is asinine. I've seen plenty of Japanese players speaking in nearby chat at the ship gates before. I really don't think most people are bothered by it.

[Triple_S]

Can someone explain what is wrong about speaking your language in public? if you can't understand it then it is clear it is not pointed to you, most people I've meet in the game that speak my language was because me or someone of my team greeted the team, and instead of team chat, they used public chat, and someone read it and was interested.

Being annoyed because you can't understand what a third person is saying to a fourth I can only consider it as an intolerant act. If I'm looked bad because I'm talking to my mother in a different language than the one people around me know then it's their problem (and this happens in my own country by just travelling a little, as it has one common language and many other regional languages)

It's a difference in culture. Japan is not a multicultural place like, say, the US, therefore it's far less common for that to happen. It's less that it's wrong and more that it makes people uncomfortable. Considering that anyone who isn't living in Japan is not supposed to be playing the game and could easily be banned just on that notion alone, we should make the effort to adapt to and respect JP players' social norms and whatnot. It's not on them to be tolerant of our social habits, so tolerance should be seen as a courtesy.


EDIT: Just to restate this, it's often not that seeing English chatter annoys JP players because most really don't give a shit that we're here so long as we don't wreck the place. Some even like it. It's mostly just makes things awkward and difficult, especially with machine translation still being pretty awful at translating JP <-> EN.

[Zenobia]

And this thread is back to Ethnocentrism. You say its a Japanese game, but in my view it, like all other online games, is an international game with international players. As such I've long since learned to not swear these cultural problems whether I'm part of the majority playing with Brazilian players or when I'm part of the minority playing with Japanese players.

Sure I'm sure someone will eventually point out the ToS that says we aren't allowed to play, but honestly that's no different than the traffic sign saying that the speed limit is 60mph while everybody is driving 75mph. Some rules simply don't reflect how something actually is.

Bullshit this game isn't international anymore this isn't the old pso days so stop it. Also this is a Japanese game and you are advice to treat it and respect how the Japanese do things cause I know I do. From reading your post you basically said if I were invited in a Japanese persons home the things I did in my house I would do in theirs and if you were to that shit would not fly same thing goes for westerners you don't go into another persons house and do w/e you always do as if it were your own.

Some of you have a messed up notion of how to do things or how to act thinking you can just treat every other game as if it were like any other you should respect other people's culture and how they do things and if you think you don't have to then well why are some of you posting in this thread again?

[Sacrificial]

Once again this kind of thread is kinda a waste. (Almost)all psow lurkers already know these kind of things like OP said and it's not the first thread on this subject.

[Coreven]

'Etiquette' is such a subjective word, though. What is considered proper etiquette will vary from culture to culture, even on the person you happen to ask. To be mad at any player, English speaking or not, speaking with their friends in public, is asinine. I've seen plenty of Japanese players speaking in nearby chat at the ship gates before. I really don't think most people are bothered by it.

Yeah, I get it myself, but sanguine dude lit up my this-bullshit-does-not-belong-in-the-argument radar with that "youre not even supposed to be playing lol" that I kneejerked a reply to it. I didn't bother to quote him since the post was meant to go right after his, and while isCasted managed to post before me I just didn't give enough of a fuck to edit it in.

[Natsu Nem]

PSO2 is like a house. The Japanese are the owners of the house. We're the guests of the house. The b20 leaks are those groups of guys who come in uninvited piss drunk with beer bottles in their hands and they puke all over the furniture.

[Edson Drake]

I think, since we're playing their game on their land, and we're not even supposed to be playing, we should abide by their system.

Even though B20 is basically a chat lobby, I usually see 3 or 4 people talking between themselves most of the time. It's not really hard to party and talk in private. Myself, I do that all the time and it's much better to have privacy on your personal conversations.

[Triple_S]

PSO2 is like a house. The Japanese are the owners of the house. We're the guests of the house. The b20 leaks are those groups of guys who come in uninvited piss drunk with beer bottles in their hands and they puke all over the furniture.

"Please excuse my cousins. They're... unique."

[Zenobia]

PSO2 is like a house. The Japanese are the owners of the house. We're the guests of the house. The b20 leaks are those groups of guys who come in uninvited piss drunk with beer bottles in their hands and they puke all over the furniture.

Why doesn't this forum have a like button I like this damn comment lol!

[landman]

It's a difference in culture. Japan is not a multicultural place like, say, the US, therefore it's far less common for that to happen. It's less that it's wrong and more that it makes people uncomfortable. Considering that anyone who isn't living in Japan is not supposed to be playing the game and could easily be banned just on that notion alone, we should make the effort to adapt to and respect JP players' social norms and whatnot. It's not on them to be tolerant of our social habits, so tolerance should be seen as a courtesy.


EDIT: Just to restate this, it's often not that seeing English chatter annoys JP players because most really don't give a shit that we're here so long as we don't wreck the place. Some even like it. It's mostly just makes things awkward and difficult, especially with machine translation still being pretty awful at translating JP <-> EN.
My question was mostly directed to people in this thread that have stated they get annoyed by people not typing in English in their online game, be it Russian, be it Spanish, be it Portuguese or be it French.

[ShinMaruku]

everyone, calm down
its just a fraud

You mean it's Mike Ross?

[Triple_S]

My question was mostly directed to people in this thread that have stated they get annoyed by people not typing in English in their online game, be it Russian, be it Spanish, be it Portuguese or be it French.

Sorry, my mistake.

[reptile7383]

No, it's not, and if you'd bother to read past the part that gets you flustered you might have seen that. It's not a matter of judging, it's a matter of behavior, and understanding the difference between things based on context.

I did read the rest. If I felt that it changed my view of what you said I would have said as much. Please don't be rude and imply that I didn't read the rest. Your behavor in your response has been very poor so far.



It is
...
It was not created to be, and they ignore the issue since we're paying them to


"if you'd bother to read past the part that gets you flustered" you'd have noticed that I responded to that (sorry I couldn't help myself ;)).



Except for, you know, cops giving tickets to people who go 15 over the limit.

That's the thing though. They don't in many cases. I know of many highways where the police will do nothing unless you are over 90mph. In fact I've passed police while driving 75. 75mph isn't dangerous on these roads, and since these roads get heavy traffic they allow the faster speeds to help keep traffic down. The law still says that we need to slow down but the law doesn't reflect the real world.

[Triple_S]

That's the thing though. They don't in many cases. I know of many highways where the police will do nothing unless you are over 90mph. In fact I've passed police while driving 75. 75mph isn't dangerous on these roads, and since these roads get heavy traffic they allow the faster speeds to help keep traffic down. The law still says that we need to slow down but the law doesn't reflect the real world.

Please stop applying traffic laws to this discussion. It's entirely different for a number of reasons.

[gigawuts]

I did read the rest. If I felt that it changed my view of what you said I would have said as much. Please don't be rude and imply that I didn't read the rest.My bad, I assumed you weren't literally developmentally challenged.


Your behavor in your response has been very poor so far.
That was the goal, yes.


"if you'd bother to read past the part that gets you flustered" you'd have noticed that I responded to that (sorry I couldn't help myself ;)).
Way to set a better example.


That's the thing though. They don't in many cases. I know of many highways where the police will do nothing unless you are over 90mph. In fact I've passed police while driving 75. 75mph isn't dangerous on these roads, and since these roads get heavy traffic they allow the faster speeds to help keep traffic down. The law still says that we need to slow down but the law doesn't reflect the real world.

Yes, some places you live near is the entire world. You must be super fat then. I guess it's cool for me to go 29 over the limit in 20 mph zones too then, I'll get right on that (in the parts of the world your fat doesn't occupy).

[Zenobia]

Oh lord Giga pls don't do it to em pls no...

[RollTheDice]

And you are who again?

http://imageshack.us/a/img818/9097/gdubstupidface.png

[Zorafim]

PSO2 is like a house. The Japanese are the owners of the house. We're the guests of the house. The b20 leaks are those groups of guys who come in uninvited piss drunk with beer bottles in their hands and they puke all over the furniture.

What I'm getting out of the main post is "don't converse with your friends while visiting someone's home."

[reptile7383]

Please stop applying traffic laws to this discussion. It's entirely different for a number of reasons.

Obviously I feel differently so if you wish for me to stop please state your case.


My bad, I assumed you weren't literally developmentally challenged.

Ok then. It seems you are incapable of carrying on a rational conversation without try to insult others. Noted.



Yes, some places you live near is the entire world. You must be super fat then. I guess it's cool for me to go 29 over the limit in 20 mph zones too then, I'll get right on that (in the parts of the world your fat doesn't occupy).

I never said it reflected the entire world. I offered an example of how rules don't always apply. I don't wish to respond to strawman arguements so are you going to respond to the actual point I made or are you going to continue trolling?

[DJcooltrainer]

PSO2 is like a house. The Japanese are the owners of the house. We're the guests of the house. The b20 leaks are those groups of guys who come in uninvited piss drunk with beer bottles in their hands and they puke all over the furniture.

It's actually Sega's house, all players are guests and follow their 'house' rules. We're more like the racial minority. The majority all talk shit about us because they're jealous of our big dicks, awesome dance moves, and the ability to play the bass guitar.

EDIT: Also, the man trying to keep us down.

[Coreven]

My thoughts exactly.

[Macman]

I understand how the OP feels. I try to minimize the time I stay around the quest counter because the obnoxious chat spam that can happen bothers me too. God help me if the game logs me into B-20... Friend of mine had that happen yesterday and the first thing he sees in chat before he can even leave is "I'M 16 AND I'M TEEN PREGNANT!"
It's kind of sad that this stuff is labeling a majority of foreign players as annoying as a result.

I know if I ever need to use lobby chat, I'll at least pull everyone away from highly populated areas.

[gigawuts]

What I'm getting out of the main post is "don't converse with your friends while visiting someone's home."

A more apt example would be "Talking very loudly with your friends in a populated area full of other people who are talking quietly or doing things on their laptops and have been sitting quietly for hours until you showed up."


are you going to respond to the actual point I made or are you going to continue trolling?

I was going to start trolling.

To respond to your initial point:

While yes, it could be interpreted as ethnocentrism, I think that's only tangentially or indirectly related. We're not judging people exclusively within the confines of any specific culture; I personally find it obnoxious within American culture - I always have. I've found it obnoxious long before I ever signed up for a foreign game. English, spanish, french, japanese, chinese, any language where people carry conversations in public areas in plain view of dozens of people who aren't involved by going to where those people are has always been obnoxious in my book.

I don't try to stop them though because it's within their rights to do it. They can definitely do it if they want. I'm free to not want to be around it though - I'm not obligated to be around people like that just because they want to be annoying.

It's one thing if it's the main login spot, like block 1 in PSO1. It's another thing if it's a standard hotspot, like b20 in PSO2. But when you start going to ordinarily quiet blocks where nobody's said a word for 6 hours and start chatting it up with your xDDD and narubos talking about shitty saturday morning cartoons, yes, I get mildly annoyed. That's not unique to PSO2 or Japan, not even a little bit. Lots of people are annoyed by that shit.

[DJcooltrainer]

A lot of people also aren't annoyed by it. I don't know about you, but I don't go around telling people to stop doing every little thing I don't approve of. It's so much easier to just move on with my life and worry about something important.

MOST Japanese players DO NOT GIVE A SHIT about us or how we talk with each other. There are some that do, but they are a vocal minority.

[Cyclon]

it is a japanese game :)
I'm probably reading too deep into that(feel free to disregard what I'm about to say if that is the case), but I think that is where the misunderstanding may be coming from. See, there are quite a few factors that will make a foreign player have a different feeling about this matter.

Firstly, the "english" community of this game has actively, sometimes willingly, sometimes not, been making this game as welcoming as possible for itself. I believe that is understandable. Most of us do enjoy this game, and it has gotten pretty clear as time went on that an english version wasn't coming out anytime soon, if at all.

Secondly, japanese players indeed tend to be more respectful and discreet, making it easier than one would think to, well... forget about them, and the behavior they expect from strangers, from time to time. Alternatively, I believe the lack of "etiquette" that you speak of, among other things, does a very good job at keeping them aware of our presence.

Finally, as many have stated, cultural differences will always cause such problems. By the way and as such, I do appreciate the effort you made by coming here, and taking the time to write this, because that's the kind of behavior needed in this matter.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make here, is that "gaijin" players aren't rude by nature or anything like that, especially when they know they are guests. The thing is, I believe most of us don't actively consider ourselves as guests when playing the game. Deep down, we know that we officially are, but it gets completely blurred by what I've said above, among other things; and we end up feeling right at home.
I'm not entirely unsure it's really that different within the japanese culture, but in my country, when you're at home, etiquette takes the back seat so to say. So what you're witnessing is just that, people acting like they're at home.

Now I can see how you could think that is unjustified, but in the end, I have to ask, is it really? As a community we've been playing, discovering, studying, speed-running, waifu-making, trying to contribute with the means given to us, and in general enjoying this game for just as long as you; I don't think this should be entirely ignored.

So there you have it. I feel apologetic for the behavior of some of my "gaijin fellows", but I'm afraid said behavior can hardly be fixed. What I can say is, while straight up trying to explain how etiquette works to us may be perceived as offensive, a simple, "excuse me, this is a public place, so could you please speak in party chat instead?" is, in my opinion, the best approach. And if it doesn't work, well, these people probably do belong in your black list anyway.

Edit: I seem to have an incredible ability to get posts I want read as last of a page, and posts I just want blent in as first. Pointing it out will probably break the spell(or my paranoia), so here.

[gigawuts]

A lot of people also aren't annoyed by it. I don't know about you, but I don't go around telling people to stop doing every little thing I don't approve of. It's so much easier to just move on with my life and worry about something important.

MOST Japanese players DO NOT GIVE A SHIT about us or how we talk with each other. There are some that do, but they are a vocal minority.

1. "Shut the fuck up in public" isn't telling people to "stop doing every little thing I don't approve of."
2. Nothing entertains me more than people defending their freedom of speech by attempting to suppress another person's freedom of speech.

[isCasted]

Why can't you put elbows on the table? I googled it and found out that it's all about "symbols" - purely subjective matter. I am not annoyed by people who do so, more so - I like doing it myself. But other people can be annoyed by it. If I don't know for sure that all people around me are OK with it, I don't do it.

People are different, and one should know about types of people when it comes to certain problem. If one doesn't know it, he might receive a warning so now he knows. If he does, he's just a jerk who aims to annoy people... Or reteach them, but it's not a case here.

[Chdata]

'Etiquette' is such a subjective word, though. What is considered proper etiquette will vary from culture to culture, even on the person you happen to ask. To be mad at any player, English speaking or not, speaking with their friends in public, is asinine. I've seen plenty of Japanese players speaking in nearby chat at the ship gates before. I really don't think most people are bothered by it.


What I'm getting out of the main post is "don't converse with your friends while visiting someone's home."

I agree with these posts.

What people are failing to realize, is that there is a difference between "conversing" and "spam/trolling".

There is also a difference between "conversing" and "playing the game".

I see no moral reason for conversing to be considered such an inetiquette thing. I consider those who allow the act of other people conversing to bother them so much to be just be intolerant and even racist if they're yelling at people for it. But getting mad at people who spam all that hiroshima or /toge stuff is completely understandable because they people they're getting mad at are actually trying to intentionally be stupid.

Also in regards to going 10 over the speed limit, that's very common. 15 over seems a bit much though. It's more of a question of whether or not how you're driving is dangerous to others.

http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1agz7g/why_is_it_so_socially_acceptable_to_drive_510_mph/

[otakun]

If they were really concerned about english speakers coming and ruining their game experience then PSO2 NA/EU would have been released over a year ago. Sega probably knows that the hardcore PSO fans would just play on JPN servers anyway. So, if the playerbase is actually complaining about gaijins then they only have Sega to blame, not fellow fans.

[Inazuma]

@OP

I know how you feel. I regularly play with Japanese players and talk to them in Japanese, so I have a really good understanding of how they feel on this issue. It bothers me a lot too, and I have tried to ask foreign players to improve their behavior multiple times in the past, but they refuse to consider it, and basically tell me to fuck off.

In other words, it seems impossible that the foreign players will decide to solve this problem themselves. They refuse to admit it is even a problem in the first place.

The only way this problem will be solved is if Sega does something about it. They can block the English patch, which would cause most of the bad players to quit the game. They can make the blacklist work for MPAs. They can release an official USA/Europe English version of the game. They can create an official non-Japanese Ship and give players the option to move there for free.

Once again, trying to talk sense into bad foreign players just doesn't work. They don't give a fuck. Tell it to Sega and hope for the best.

[reptile7383]

To respond to your initial point:

While yes, it could be interpreted as ethnocentrism, I think that's only tangentially or indirectly related. We're not judging people exclusively within the confines of any specific culture; I personally find it obnoxious within American culture - I always have. I've found it obnoxious long before I ever signed up for a foreign game. English, spanish, french, japanese, chinese, any language where people carry conversations in public areas in plain view of dozens of people who aren't involved by going to where those people are has always been obnoxious in my book.

I don't try to stop them though because it's within their rights to do it. They can definitely do it if they want. I'm free to not want to be around it though - I'm not obligated to be around people like that just because they want to be annoying.

It's one thing if it's the main login spot, like block 1 in PSO1. It's another thing if it's a standard hotspot, like b20 in PSO2. But when you start going to ordinarily quiet blocks where nobody's said a word for 6 hours and start chatting it up with your xDDD and narubos talking about shitty saturday morning cartoons, yes, I get mildly annoyed. That's not unique to PSO2 or Japan, not even a little bit. Lots of people are annoyed by that shit.

Thank you for keeping your post polite.

I don't mean to say that all Americans are fine with speaking in public like this. Of course there will be different opinions about this even within a culture, but its clear that Japanese culture places a much higher value on not speaking in public while many Americans don't mind as much. Your not even supposed to talk while riding trains or buses in Japan. This issue is brought up so often because there is a big culture difference about how much talking is too much and when.

[Ghalion]

everyone, calm down
its just a weeaboo

This response looks so troll but honestly I think it just might be true. Why would the op be "embarrassed" what foreign people do? And why did they inexplicably start off using the term foreigner to get your attention to the thread, then turn to using the term "gaijin"?

Regardless though when I was playing on the jpn server I didn't use public chat at all unless it was already being flooded with english (typically only block 20 lobby) because I know it's just not fair for most jpn players to be dealing with chat they don't understand for games in their own region.

I still think weeaboo is a very real possibility in this case though.

[Chdata]

They refuse to admit it is even a problem in the first place.

Despite almost everyone on this forum and various randoms I see in B20 acknowledging it?

It seems to me more like the people who don't know about the forums are usually the ones who don't know it's a problem. Those eng players that kinda go into the game alone and don't look up stuff.

[Rayden]

There's no rule against speaking English in-game. The terms of service state that you should be connecting from within Japan, but not that you need to speak Japanese. So it's not against the rules or anything like that.

That said, I can totally understand how it can be annoying for the Japanese players to be forced to see a language that they don't understand. Like other people have mentioned, it's just like BRs in English games. For this reason, I always do my best to keep my English chat private, and only use my Japanese phrases around Japanese players. I also use the PSO2 Chat Translator so that I can better understand what they're saying, instead of just ignoring them. I've actually started trying to learn Japanese too, but it's really difficult. Anyway, I do my best to be polite and respectful. Sometimes I do accidentally speak English in public chat, due to fumbling with the chat channels. I always feel very embarrassed when this happens!

I'm not on ship 2, so I don't really know what it's like there. On my ship, it seems to me that the majority of English speakers do the same as me, and try to keep English chat private. I almost never see English chat in public.

On my ship, I actually see a lot of Japanese players chatting in public chat in the popular blocks and spamming symbol arts. I find that irritating, especially since they could just whisper. It's not annoying because it's in Japanese, but just because it's so noisy and distracting. Still, that's part of what lobbies are intended for, I guess. I move away when that happens so I don't have to see it.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It was only a matter of when inazuma would show up.



In other words, it seems impossible that the foreign players will decide to solve this problem themselves. They refuse to admit it is even a problem in the first place.

Freudian slip much? You just sterotyped every foreign player as expected of you.


They can create an official non-Japanese Ship and give players the option to move there for free.

lol like anyone would take that option.

[Z-0]

Seems American in this thread.

As always, does not understand cultural differences.

[Zorafim]

You say Americans. You're aware of how many different nationalities are represented in PSOW, right?
If anything, it seems the opposite. People can't see why other people can't conform to the japanese culture.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the problem. All I see is that people want to play a chat based game without having to bother with looking at chat. Culteral differences or not, that just doesn't make sense to me. People shouldn't have to stop enjoying the company of a friend because someone else joined a group. If anything, the group should get louder with another person.
And not speaking in a general lobby is ridiculous. It's designed as a meeting place for people to mingle. How are we supposed to do that without chat? I will freely admit after visiting B20 once, that maybe some people go overboard. But as far as chatting with friends, there's no problem there.

[Inazuma]

Despite almost everyone on this forum and various randoms I see in B20 acknowledging it?

It seems to me more like the people who don't know about the forums are usually the ones who don't know it's a problem.
If enough foreign players cared about having proper behavior, they would discourage bad behavior from the others.

It's very rare, but if you happen to experience a Japanese player doing bad things, it's not uncommon for the other Japanese players to ask him to stop and/or make it clear they do not approve. When this happens, the bad Japanese player will probably stop. The vast majority of Japanese players are good and they help correct the occasional bad player.

Speaking from personal experience, if I ask a player to stop doing something bad, the Japanese players will often stop and apologize. The English players will usually keep doing it and tell me they can play the game however they damn please, or they will completely ignore me.

In all of the many times I have seen English players being bad on the game, I almost never see anyone asking them to stop. And if someone does try that, it usually doesn't help. However, if enough people made it clear that it is not OK to do bad things, it would eventually help improve the overall quality of foreign players.

It's not just communication. Foreign players are generally terrible at playing the game and have no sense of teamwork or consideration for others. Anyone who has played enough with Japanese players can agree on the absolutely massive difference here. Even if you don't say a word, you can come across as a selfish assholes who is terrible at the game by your actions alone.

I want to clarify that there are indeed bad Japanese players, and also good English players. However despite the English players being the minority on Ship 2, they are usually the ones causing trouble. Despite being in the minority, there are far more bad English players than bad Japanese players on Ship 2. It's not even close. We need to fix this.

[nathanielzor]

Should I be getting mad about the Japanese foreign exchange students that speak Japanese on my college bus? I mean seriously, they're totally not respecting our cultural differences!

[Zorafim]

Should I be getting mad about the Japanese foreign exchange students that speak Japanese on my college bus? I mean seriously, they're totally not respecting our cultural differences!

This is America! You have to stop speaking your language and speak American!

Sound familiar? That's what I'm hearing in this thread.

[gigawuts]

This is America! You have to stop speaking your language and speak American!

Sound familiar? That's what I'm hearing in this thread.

From Inazuma maybe.

[Zorafim]

There's this problem with the human brain. It can recall a fact, but not where it heard that fact. So if some no-name news story says something like "Is Obama racist?", then one stores that information without recalling that it was originally in the form of a question from an ilreputable source.
So, um, forgive my not remembering who said what. Though I will freely admit, I kinda stopped reading what Inazuma has to say. Too many words, not enough information.

[Zenobia]

Seems American in this thread.

As always, does not understand cultural differences.

^I loled considering we are supposed to be more accepting of other countries I couldn't help but laugh to true.


Should I be getting mad about the Japanese foreign exchange students that speak Japanese on my college bus? I mean seriously, they're totally not respecting our cultural differences!

If that bus said it was an English speaking bus only then I could see it being a problem!

[Z-0]

You're obviously missing the point. I can't speak for America, but let's give an example:

In Spain (or at least some areas), the concept of personal space does not exist. When someone talks to you, you may very well expect them to be right up in you face. Literally right in front of you.

Now, this is just normal culture. You do it to get someone's attention and show you are talking to them. What would you do if they did that in England?

You would be offended of course. It's just common courtesy to give people their personal space, but to the person who did this, they'd be confused as to what they're doing wrong, as isn't it perfectly normal? So, of course, you must teach the foreigner to respect the culture of said country.

Now, in Japan, it's considered "rude" (this is most likely the wrong word) to publicly talk in such a manner that's obviously not intended for them, but they receive anyway. In England, if someone was shouting at another on the street, you'd just walk by them and think nothing of it, but in Japan, it's considered rude to let people know your business. If the Japanese do publicly speak, it's because whatever they're doing is for everyone to join in.*

So what are you supposed to do if you're in Japanese "territory", so to speak? Respect their culture so you don't make them uncomfortable, nor feel offended. You may think they're just being silly, but that's ethnocentrism.

*This is all kind of made up and pulled out of my ass, but it reflects the behaviour of the Japanese on PSO2, and why these kind of concerns come up quite often.

[DJcooltrainer]

All I see is that people want to play a chat based game without having to bother with looking at chat. Culteral differences or not, that just doesn't make sense to me. People shouldn't have to stop enjoying the company of a friend because someone else joined a group.

This. It's one thing to get upset when your team members don't communicate during a quest and it's causing problems for the group, that I can understand. (I have some choice words regarding this topic, but I'd rather not get started on that one...) But getting upset for someone greeting a friend or acquaintance in public chat? If that really bothers you so much, you should take a step outside and figure out something more important to worry about.

There's also a lot of comments and generalizations here about Japanese culture by a lot of people who do not live in Japan. I guess everyone here is some type of cultural expert.

My freshman year of college I lived in an international dorm complex, with mostly Japanese and Chinese exchange students. The Japanese students liked to sit outside in the courtyard, smoke cigarettes, make jokes, and sing Japanese songs together. I suppose I'm a little confused as to where the idea that it is rude to speak to another person in public is coming from.

[Zenobia]

You're obviously missing the point. I can't speak for America, but let's give an example:

In Spain (or at least some areas), the concept of personal space does not exist. When someone talks to you, you may very well expect them to be right up in you face. Literally right in front of you.

Now, this is just normal culture. You do it to get someone's attention and show you are talking to them. What would you do if they did that in England?

You would be offended of course. It's just common courtesy to give people their personal space, but to the person who did this, they'd be confused as to what they're doing wrong, as isn't it perfectly normal? So, of course, you must teach the foreigner to respect the culture of said country.

Now, in Japan, it's considered "rude" (this is most likely the wrong word) to publicly talk in such a manner that's obviously not intended for them, but they receive anyway. In England, if someone was shouting at another on the street, you'd just walk by them and think nothing of it, but in Japan, it's considered rude to let people know your business. If the Japanese do publicly speak, it's because whatever they're doing is for everyone to join in.*

So what are you supposed to do if you're in Japanese "territory", so to speak? Respect their culture so you don't make them uncomfortable, nor feel offended. You may think they're just being silly, but that's ethnocentrism.

*This is all kind of made up and pulled out of my ass, but it reflects the behaviour of the Japanese on PSO2, and why these kind of concerns come up quite often.

My post was actually in accordance to this very thing explained in this post the thing is some Americans actually don't give a damn sometimes and do w/e they want regardless of culture sad but true. In all honesty I've been to a lot of different cultures and gotten evolved in how people do things if it''s one thing about me I know how to adept not stay stuck in the past there is a way you do things and a way to handle things in a culture environment where a lot of things need to be known in order to get around respect included.


This. It's one thing to get upset when your team members don't communicate during a quest and it's causing problems for the group, that I can understand. (I have some choice words regarding this topic, but I'd rather not get started on that one...) But getting upset for someone greeting a friend or acquaintance in public chat? If that really bothers you so much, you should take a step outside and figure out something more important to worry about.

There's also a lot of comments and generalizations here about Japanese culture by a lot of people who do not live in Japan. I guess everyone here is some type of cultural expert.

My freshman year of college I lived in an international dorm complex, with mostly Japanese and Chinese exchange students. The Japanese students liked to sit outside in the courtyard, smoke cigarettes, make jokes, and sing Japanese songs together. I suppose I'm a little confused as to where the idea that it is rude to speak to another person in public is coming from.

I dunno who said that but like Chadata said I think it's just people spamming annoying SA's and togeing for no reason anyone having a old fashioned proper conversation with old friends or group I don't see that as a problem.

[gigawuts]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the problem. All I see is that people want to play a chat based game without having to bother with looking at chat. Culteral differences or not, that just doesn't make sense to me. People shouldn't have to stop enjoying the company of a friend because someone else joined a group. If anything, the group should get louder with another person.
And not speaking in a general lobby is ridiculous. It's designed as a meeting place for people to mingle. How are we supposed to do that without chat? I will freely admit after visiting B20 once, that maybe some people go overboard. But as far as chatting with friends, there's no problem there.

Then you need to put on your glasses, because this is not what's being said even a little bit. It's been clarified, reclarified, and rereclarified.

People don't want to see conversations that don't involve them. That's it.

Like, that's it.

Someone conversing with one single other person in public is broadcasting a conversation to everyone in range. Do that by the visiphone near the quest counter in block 11 and that's a whole lot of people you're not talking to, compared to the small handful of people you are.

[Zorafim]

In Spain (or at least some areas), the concept of personal space does not exist. When someone talks to you, you may very well expect them to be right up in you face. Literally right in front of you.

Now, this is just normal culture. You do it to get someone's attention and show you are talking to them. What would you do if they did that in England?

You would be offended of course. It's just common courtesy to give people their personal space, but to the person who did this, they'd be confused as to what they're doing wrong, as isn't it perfectly normal? So, of course, you must teach the foreigner to respect the culture of said country.

Isn't up to the englishman in question to tell the spaniard not to get so close? After enough negative reactions, the spaniard will realize not to get too close.


People don't want to see conversations that don't involve them. That's it.

That's... completely ridiculous. How can someone be bothered by a conversation one can easily join or tune out?

[Coreven]

My freshman year of college I lived in an international dorm complex, with mostly Japanese and Chinese exchange students. The Japanese students liked to sit outside in the courtyard, smoke cigarettes, make jokes, and sing Japanese songs together. I suppose I'm a little confused as to where the idea that it is rude to speak to another person in public is coming from.

Bah, that's easy. They were obviously corrupted by the presence of people of other nationalities. What weak minds.

[gigawuts]

Isn't up to the englishman in question to tell the spaniard not to get so close? After enough negative reactions, the spaniard will realize not to get too close.

Some would argue it's up to a person to not assume everyone is fine with everything you do. I'm one of them. There are limits to what you should expect a person to be okay with, and it's better to not impose yourself on anyone else.

Others would argue that the entire world should accept everything they do so long as it's legal. That's evidently you.

[BIG OLAF]

Come in, make one post that you know will incite arguing, leave.

I'm smelling a troll thread.

[Chdata]

If enough foreign players cared about having proper behavior, they would discourage bad behavior from the others.

It's very rare, but if you happen to experience a Japanese player doing bad things, it's not uncommon for the other Japanese players to ask him to stop and/or make it clear they do not approve. When this happens, the bad Japanese player will probably stop. The vast majority of Japanese players are good and they help correct the occasional bad player.

Speaking from personal experience, if I ask a player to stop doing something bad, the Japanese players will often stop and apologize. The English players will usually keep doing it and tell me they can play the game however they damn please, or they will completely ignore me.

In all of the many times I have seen English players being bad on the game, I almost never see anyone asking them to stop. And if someone does try that, it usually doesn't help. However, if enough people made it clear that it is not OK to do bad things, it would eventually help improve the overall quality of foreign players.

It's not just communication. Foreign players are generally terrible at playing the game and have no sense of teamwork or consideration for others. Anyone who has played enough with Japanese players can agree on the absolutely massive difference here. Even if you don't say a word, you can come across as a selfish assholes who is terrible at the game by your actions alone.

I want to clarify that there are indeed bad Japanese players, and also good English players. However despite the English players being the minority on Ship 2, they are usually the ones causing trouble. Despite being in the minority, there are far more bad English players than bad Japanese players on Ship 2. It's not even close. We need to fix this.

I see enough people who try to be proper themselves. It doesn't mean they have to find everyone else who isn't being proper. I mean, when I run into people spamming Il Zonde as their only form of attacking mobs, yeah I yell at them. But people in the lobby? I'm only ever AFK in the lobby or in there for a short time as I go to start a quest. I'm not gonna go stake it out there and issue bans on everyone I see who spams in a day.

Not to mention the only people who are in need of being stopped are people who are intentionally spamming or trolling, and it's usually useless to try and make them stop doing that and thus the only option is to block them like anyone else would.

People not playing well in EQ MPA? Where do you find time to talk? During TD/2 I'm constantly fighting and hardly find a chance to stop and type without messing up preparing for the next wave. Outside of TD, I have never once seen anyone really do anything that can jeopardize normal EQ runs.

During a TACO or AQ are the only places I can see anyone be a real problem (aside from TD EQ), and I see people yell at each other all the time if they aren't doing something right (running off on their own in AQ, messing up TACO buttons). Other than that, you just need to choose your parties carefully. Whenever I play with an "iffy" group of people I at least try to announce how we plan to do some things before an AQ.

Most of the time I'll host parties I start and threaten to kick someone if they're doing something really stupid. Even so, doing this isn't going to stop them from doing it with other people.

[gigawuts]

Come in, make one post that you know will incite arguing, leave.

I'm smelling a troll thread.

That's 90% of this forum's threads, though.

I don't think this forum would have much activity without them.

[Triple_S]

That's... completely ridiculous. How can someone be bothered by a conversation one can easily join or tune out?

That's the issue though. In real life it's a lot easier to do that. In PSO2 you have chat bubbles everywhere, and if you're in a menu you'd have to back out and turn off all lobby chat.

This is pretty inconvenient.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

http://youtu.be/181XbJ5Oa2s?t=13s

[Friyn]

After reading the first page, sweet jesus. Get out PSO-W and other weeaboos, seriously.

As for the japanese person who opened this thread. I can understand where you are coming from, I really do. I've grown to dislike most of the western players I've met in this game, but out there are nice people too, as you've pointed out.

I'd like to apologize on behalf of all decent western folks. See you in game!

[ShinMaruku]

That first post is a Yank not a Japanese player you got trolled.

[Cyclon]

Come in, make one post that you know will incite arguing, leave.

I'm smelling a troll thread.
Well at the very least as a result there's new stuff to read around here.

Plus the moment you behave differently because of the possibility of trolling you've already lost and stuff.

[Zenobia]

That first post is a Yank not a Japanese player you got trolled.

Mah sides....

[gigawuts]

Let's say I'm having two slow conversations - one in party, one in team.

There are four people talking in public, all of them in the same party.

My party's messages get buried in all the spam about Rebecca Black and Kanye West or whatever it is the kids talk about these days.

I literally cannot tune out their spam unless I blacklist them. They are not in the background, they're in the exact same box as my party and team members. I have to manually flip between party and team chat filters which gets tedious, and it plays the same "shwip" sound when their text bubbles come up so if I'm looking away from the monitor I can't be sure if it's someone talking directly to me or just more lobby spam about Kanye West.

This is largely Sega's fault, though. This is some archaic fucking chat design here. This is early 90's "Okay, we've never made or played a computer game before, how should our chat work?" amateur hour bullshit. Anyone could've told them this would be terrible, and if I had to put money down I'd bet plenty of people did tell them it would be terrible.

It shouldn't fall on the players to have to choose not to use public chat like this, it should fall on the developers to create a system that allows us to work around it when it's inevitably used by people. Other games have IRC-like chat interfaces, or a couple tabs where we can choose what to see (So I could customize a tab to show only Party, Team, and item pickups if I wanted). They'd let you mute certain channels from showing text bubbles instead of only team chat, etc.


tl;dr players gonna do some stuff, other players gonna be bothered by it, sega should know this and design a game where that isn't a problem. That's what actually bothers me. Sega's raking in 8 figures from this game and it's still making a game with interfaces rivaled by flash games.

[Chdata]

http://youtu.be/PVwUX9Q5M9w?t=5s

[Alukard]

You're obviously missing the point. I can't speak for America, but let's give an example:

In Spain (or at least some areas), the concept of personal space does not exist. When someone talks to you, you may very well expect them to be right up in you face. Literally right in front of you.

Now, this is just normal culture. You do it to get someone's attention and show you are talking to them. What would you do if they did that in England?

You would be offended of course. It's just common courtesy to give people their personal space, but to the person who did this, they'd be confused as to what they're doing wrong, as isn't it perfectly normal? So, of course, you must teach the foreigner to respect the culture of said country.

Now, in Japan, it's considered "rude" (this is most likely the wrong word) to publicly talk in such a manner that's obviously not intended for them, but they receive anyway. In England, if someone was shouting at another on the street, you'd just walk by them and think nothing of it, but in Japan, it's considered rude to let people know your business. If the Japanese do publicly speak, it's because whatever they're doing is for everyone to join in.*

So what are you supposed to do if you're in Japanese "territory", so to speak? Respect their culture so you don't make them uncomfortable, nor feel offended. You may think they're just being silly, but that's ethnocentrism.

*This is all kind of made up and pulled out of my ass, but it reflects the behaviour of the Japanese on PSO2, and why these kind of concerns come up quite often.

I don't think you or inazuma understood what cultural difference is and how it has to be handled. Both societies have a political system that is based on pluralism. I'll keep it short, you don't have to accept such behaviour but you have to tolerate it. Look up the difference.
Going into detail would require more effort than I'd want to put into it

[Zorafim]

Let's say I'm having two slow conversations - one in party, one in team.

There are four people talking in public, all of them in the same party.

My party's messages get buried in all the spam about Rebecca Black and Kanye West or whatever it is the kids talk about these days.

You're in a pub for a meal. You're on group skype on your laptop, and chatting to your friend on a phone. You cannot hear your chats over the sound of the groups chatting behind you.

Do you need to be in the lobby at that time? If you really need to be in the lobby, can't you go upstairs, or to the class counter waiting area? It seems kind of obvious your conversation will get drowned out if you're in an active area.


I agree though; the chat system is to blame. WoW has it so that you can easily keep up with a conversation going on in the entire area you're in, all the chat of the main cities in the world, everything being shouted around you, everything going on directly around you, everything said in your party, everything said in your guild, and everything whispered to you, without ever getting overloaded with information. Doesn't everyone copy WoW nowadays? Didn't PSO2 start using the tree system because of WoW?


Others would argue that the entire world should accept everything they do so long as it's legal. That's evidently you.

Isn't that rather presumptuous? I don't agree that it's worth getting upset about someone talking in the corner, and you believe I suddenly don't care about other people's feelings?

[UnLucky]

Well, the problem with sticking to whispers or party chat is that's limited to 1:1 or 4 people.

If you have 5 or more people who all want to talk with each other, you have afew options:

Use team chat. Of course you'd all have to be in the same team, so it's not feasible for spontaneous chat. Not to mention it now clutters up your team's chat with several different unrelated conversations.
You can all visit one person's room, but this means leaving the block, which can lock you out for EQs and away from anyone else you know that isn't now in your room.
You could start up a quest and join the same MPA. Now the limit is 12 people, much more reasonable but still a limitation. However, boost tickets will count down, and you run the risk of getting killed while AFK.
Just use public chat.

[Cyclon]

SegaIt had to go there didn't it.

[Macman]

Well, the problem with sticking to whispers or party chat is that's limited to 1:1 or 4 people.

If you have 5 or more people who all want to talk with each other, you have afew options:

Use team chat. Of course you'd all have to be in the same team, so it's not feasible for spontaneous chat. Not to mention it now clutters up your team's chat with several different unrelated conversations.
You can all visit one person's room, but this means leaving the block, which can lock you out for EQs and away from anyone else you know that isn't now in your room.
You could start up a quest and join the same MPA. Now the limit is 12 people, much more reasonable but still a limitation. However, boost tickets will count down, and you run the risk of getting killed while AFK.
Just use public chat.

Go to the red/blue rooms where nobody ever goes. Problem solved.

[gigawuts]

It had to go there didn't it.

It's their responsibility to design the game in a way to account for shit like this, so yes.

All design responsibility ultimately falls on Sega.

The real question is why it didn't go there sooner, if not immediately.

[btw-Niji]

If you want etiquette, join my team; "Code."

You will love us.

[Daiyousei]

Go to the red/blue rooms where nobody ever goes. Problem solved.

Whatever happened to the meet and greet events.

[UnLucky]

Go to the red/blue rooms where nobody ever goes. Problem solved.
You'd still hear it at the nearby shops/visiphones, or at least the blips and bubbles anywhere in the district if not the actual words.

Chatting in a different part of the lobby doesn't fix the problem of chatting in the lobby.

[Cyclon]

It's their responsibility to design the game in a way to account for shit like this, so yes.

All design responsibility ultimately falls on Sega.

The real question is why it didn't go there sooner, if not immediately.
Well of course. But while the topic of chat design isn't entirely irrelevant aaaah fudge it. Why are we even doing this.

[nathanielzor]

It is astounding how many pages you guys can repeat the same things over and over again though.

[Inazuma]

Well, the problem with sticking to whispers or party chat is that's limited to 1:1 or 4 people.

If you have 5 or more people who all want to talk with each other, you have afew options:

Use team chat. Of course you'd all have to be in the same team, so it's not feasible for spontaneous chat. Not to mention it now clutters up your team's chat with several different unrelated conversations.
You can all visit one person's room, but this means leaving the block, which can lock you out for EQs and away from anyone else you know that isn't now in your room.
You could start up a quest and join the same MPA. Now the limit is 12 people, much more reasonable but still a limitation. However, boost tickets will count down, and you run the risk of getting killed while AFK.
Just use public chat.


Like someone else posted, you can go to the red/blue rooms, or any other block or area of the lobby that isn't crowded. My team does this all the time.

[gigawuts]

Well of course. But while the topic of chat design isn't entirely irrelevant aaaah fudge it. Why are we even doing this.

I'm doing it because I'm putting off an assignment and this is the lowest hanging fruit.

[Cyclon]

I'm doing it because I'm putting off an assignment and this is the lowest hanging fruit.Well then surely someone else wil deliver in my stead? I'm tired right now.

[btw-Niji]

It is astounding how many pages you guys can repeat the same things over and over again though.
Hello nathanielzor!

Are we going to get 8 perfect TD2 runs tonight with the team?!

[nathanielzor]

Hello nathanielzor!

Are we going to get 8 perfect TD2 runs tonight with the team?!
Totally! I see you're fangirling over Failure btw.

[Macman]

You'd still hear it at the nearby shops/visiphones, or at least the blips and bubbles anywhere in the district if not the actual words.

Chatting in a different part of the lobby doesn't fix the problem of chatting in the lobby.

No you don't. You're so far away from everyone you don't even get the "..." bubbles unless for some inane reason a pubbie is hanging around the door to those places.

[Vampy]

Somehow I feel this person isn't exactly Japanese but that is besides the point sorry if you actually are I mean no offense.

Anyways back to the topic I tend to keep things in party and team chat I learned early on that it was seen as disrespectful to them. I feel bad when I accidentally speak in the lobby.

I have been meaning to learn how to communicate but it can be hard at times seeing as I already have to balance spanish and english on a daily basis. Not to mention I have some moderate experience in mandarin. I'm not that old but I am also not that young either my mind does not proccess things as well as young childs. I think I can learn it over time but it will take years to get to the point I can easily communicate without having to look at a translation.

I think most of us get this sure foreign players are a problem, but most of those are not from this site and know the "proper" etiquette. I think also a big issue is there are more and more foreign players playing over time and B:20 can't hold them all the leaks are getting bigger over time.

I get it we SHOULD be handling it but we can only do so much to educate people. We can't be policing everyone that plays there are too many people for us to be able to handle. We can probably reduce this little by little but it will take time but most of us are not willing to deal with these people.

[FireswordRus]

Russians use only Team chat/Voice chat!!!
:)

[Zipzo]

Did not read the entire thread, because I knew what this was the moment I got past the OP. First of all, this person is not Japanese, and if they truly are, this is shameful even for them.

I won't even touch on your self-given forum title (Gaijin Hunter, btw, people). I'll just tear your post apart, both feeding your troll but at the same time giving you a reality check if it's actually needed in this regard. I'm going to speak in mostly English because that's seemingly what you'll (and most folks here) understand, but I'll give you cornbread bits of 日本語 so you can get your google translate goggles ready.


foreigners often doesn't practice it in this game...
I know a lot of you guys do know the basic ones...
but based on my experience, etiquette of foreigners in this game is just terrible.
i facepalm everytime someone does something embarrassing in the chat (well I always feel embarrassed about it... I don't know about you guys... )
japanese players are very good at ignoring stuff...but don't you know that it is a bit uncomfortable for them? (you are all scaring us! hahaha)

Hi! I live in 日本 (latter half of my adult life), my wife is 日本人 with a very traditional 家族 behind her, and my mother is half 日本人 as well...making me a dirty scum quarter hybrid that has me looking more like a 英国人. 毎日は日本語話しています、また英語は話して珍しいですよ。
スカイプと外国人とまだ地は英語話していますだけ。

This being said, I have a very literal and decent idea that most of what you're saying is either BS "weaboo" nonsense, or you are a NEET who is out for giggles. 貴方は外人を言うこと無礼なだよな？


Typical gaijin chat in this game:
(in lobby chat or emergency quest)
gaijin #1: Hi!
gaijin #2: OMG hi!
gaijin #3: you here too! wow!
(insert more lines)
...
mmm, there is something called a whisper chat if you guys are going to talk like this is like an irc chat...
I know some jps do chat like that too but not in a very crowded place...
and er who cares...it is a japanese game :)

Let me clear something up for my PSO-W friends here.

Speaking openly in chat is not considered rude. It's silly to perforate this idea. What is rude is the ridiculous spammy and yelling type nonsense that you mostly see walking in to B-20, that stuff is annoying no matter where your from, but it sticks out more to Japanese players who are not accustomed to...dealing with westerners in a setting where they must work together with them despite a lack of a common language.

Everyone speaks in open chat, it's a freaking lobby. It has been this way since the first PSO (I played on JP ships most of the time).

It's true that Japanese tend to be sometimes more shy, but this is utterly irrelevant. Japanese talk in the lobbies. Westerners talk in the lobbies. 同じだよ～. This entire assumption is just based off of an extrapolated concept of the 外人 mentality here in Japan, where many folks visiting here just think, heck, I don't know the language, and I'm from fucking America so I can act like a complete stupid ass and gather up hordes of attention for myself and people will somehow think I'm cool.

They don't, they just think you're an idiot, like anyone in America probably would.

日本とアメリカはちょうっとちがうですけででも、皆さん人間だよ～。


not being against all foreign players, I have a lot of gaijin friends.

Right.



but this stereotype that they lack any manners is being very common in this game that I don't know what to believe anymore
when I do teach etiquette to foreigners, I end up being hated... like I hate them from the start but I really don't. I just want them to know the basic manners... (I mean at least say yoroshiku when joining a pt)

LMAO. You're trying to enforce people to say よろしく when joining parties, haha. This is great, you are seriously trying to feign 日本人 with this? This is the most weaboo coated nonsense I've ever read, lol. It's like you know, quite actually, nothing about manners.

Greeting is considered a courtesy no matter what country you're from, but neglecting to よろしく is not considered rude or bad manners. Ignoring chat period could be considered rude of course, which westerners may tend to do if they join open Japanese parties, and that's a bit on them.

If it bothers you enough, you should do what every 日本人 player already knows to do for your parties if you want to keep just westerners out.

Just identify an uncommon Kanji as the password in the party comment. Every single Japanese player will know, and westerners will be unable to copy paste it in order to figure it out. This generally what is normally done, and for to basically act like you don't know this...already proves to me you're a pathetic fake.


I also get annoyed by people complaining how this game is not gaijin friendly...
partially sega's fault for not putting an ip block or something which they should if they really want to solve something ... :)

They have been shit on and practically lied to by Sega of America, and have been awaiting their regional form of PSO2 for almost 2 years since the announcement, with basically zero communication since that announcement on either its progress or its status. You can't exactly blame them for getting a bit anxious. We should be directing this conversation at the source, and be encouraging SEGA to improve their methods of both communication and game development (whether of Japan, or of America, of Europe).


anyway, when I see a foreigner in the game who does spam the chat, I often just ignore them like the rest...
every other jp player just shrugs it off and have that awkward moment...
...or I just do what most of them do if they become really annoying, put them in my ever growing black list of foreign players... :)

I think people like you are really annoying, and I'm sure if you actually do live here in Japan, most people here probably think so too.

じゃ。。。

[gigawuts]

or you are a NEET

Hey now, there's no need to go around saying anyone plays braver here.

[pkemr4]

あなたに私たちはあなたを憎む脂肪アメリカの豚をB20に進みます。あなたはSHIP2を台無 しにした / We go to B20 of the pig fat American hate you you. You ruined SHIP2

just saw this in b11. and some jps saying go back to b20 cuzz of them chatting in lobby

[infiniteeverlasting]

^.............. i thought we got over that topic

edit: (about the neets)

[Chunky McMunky]

Isn't calling someone a gaijin supposed to be racist? I was in party today and there was a big argument about it between who I assume was a Japanese guy and an English speaking guy (I assumed Japanese from the name and not great English)

[Zipzo]

あなたに私たちはあなたを憎む脂肪アメリカの豚をB20に進みます。あなたはSHIP2を台無 しにした / We go to B20 of the pig fat American hate you you. You ruined SHIP2

just saw this in b11. and some jps saying go back to b20 cuzz of them chatting in lobby

This is just an isolated case of racism. It's shameful for them as Japanese to act in such a way.

Manners falls on both sides of the court.


Isn't calling someone a gaijin supposed to be racist? I was in party today and there was a big argument about it between who I assume was a Japanese guy and an English speaking guy (I assumed Japanese from the name and not great English)

As I said above (in Japanese however), using the word "外人" is indeed typically considered a rude term for foreigners, I wouldn't exactly say it's racist though as it doesn't directly attack the race of a person. It's more like nationalist.

Foreigners are pretty much intertwined in today's growing Japanese societal norms, to be exclusionary of foreigners in today's Japan is to seriously either be of a very old generation, or to be a raging idiot. Foreigners are everywhere in Japan.

It's a bit like the Americans with their insurgence of gay rights. If you are still fighting gay marriage over there, you may be a bit behind the times.

[pkemr4]

^.............. i thought we got over that topic

edit: (about the neets)

i dont think mods outright deleting threads without saying anything is enough to warrent "getting over"

[btw-Niji]

あなたに私たちはあなたを憎む脂肪アメリカの豚をB20に進みます。あなたはSHIP2を台無 しにした / We go to B20 of the pig fat American hate you you. You ruined SHIP2

just saw this in b11. and some jps saying go back to b20 cuzz of them chatting in lobby
Then go back... that's where ppl like u belong...

[Macman]

あなたに私たちはあなたを憎む脂肪アメリカの豚をB20に進みます。あなたはSHIP2を台無 しにした / We go to B20 of the pig fat American hate you you. You ruined SHIP2

just saw this in b11. and some jps saying go back to b20 cuzz of them chatting in lobby
I'd believe it to a small extent. Ship 2's starting to fall apart as the spam is slowly spreading from it's b20 cesspit and more JPs leave to other ships.
Hell when Super Falz was in full swing I'd see almost every ship in "busy" status when switching characters, not ship 2 though.

TD2 is amplifying this problem tenfold, though. Once the Shunka/S Roll nerfs roll in it'll be all but impossible to complete in any MPA that has more than half english names.

[Vampy]

I noticed that as well where other ships say busy or full ship 2 is in the green. I feel if we don't do something soon to at least educate players ship 2 will fall apart completely

[Edson Drake]

Isn't calling someone a gaijin supposed to be racist? I was in party today and there was a big argument about it between who I assume was a Japanese guy and an English speaking guy (I assumed Japanese from the name and not great English)

Yeah, wouldn't a true Japanese refer to foreigners as gaikokujin? Even if pissed off?

[Triple_S]

I noticed that as well where other ships say busy or full ship 2 is in the green. I feel if we don't do something soon to at least educate players ship 2 will fall apart completely

This is kind of a good point.

I kinda feel bad now. I didn't even do anything, either!

[Zipzo]

Yeah, wouldn't a true Japanese refer to foreigners as gaikokujin? Even if pissed off?

"Gaijin" is a pretty commonly used term in Japan to describe foreigners, so not necessarily. It's not even always considered rude, as long as you keep it within friends or the context is light hearted.

If you call someone that you don't know (who looks foreign) a Gaijin, then it's quite rude (it's negative form of the word meaning "foreigner", so it's kind of like saying "stupid foreigner"), but that should be obvious, should it not? No matter what country you're from that could be considered rude in almost any context. It's not really simple to explain. Sometimes it's just easier to say 外人 simply because it's a shorter word. It really is not so simple, it depends on context.

[pkemr4]

I noticed that as well where other ships say busy or full ship 2 is in the green. I feel if we don't do something soon to at least educate players ship 2 will fall apart completely

its 75% of the way there. and when it falls apart complety im gonna just say fuck it and move to ship 1,4,7 or 10

[btw-Niji]

its 75% of the way there. and when it falls apart complety im gonna just say fuck it and move to ship 1,4,7 or 10
Please do so already. You've announced like 10 times already on this forum that you're going to change ships. >_>

[Crystal_Shard]

One troll account.

One incendiary posting.

14 + pages of responses.

You know, if trolling could be monetized, the OP would be making a killing off this.

[Triple_S]

its 75% of the way there. and when it falls apart complety im gonna just say fuck it and move to ship 1,4,7 or 10

I'd probably go to the place with the best economy. I never manage to get much money, so if things are more affordable... x3

I'd hate to be separated from all of PSO-W though. As much as we bitch at each other on the forums like a bunch of assholes sometimes, most of us tend to be a lot nicer in-game.

I have no idea why that is.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I'd probably go to the place with the best economy. I never manage to get much money, so if things are more affordable... x3

I'd hate to be separated from all of PSO-W though. As much as we bitch at each other on the forums like a bunch of assholes sometimes, most of us tend to be a lot nicer in-game.

I have no idea why that is.

I hate you.

You suck at this game.

Join my party so I can carry you in TD2.

[pkemr4]

Please do so already. You've announced like 10 times already on this forum that you're going to change ships. >_>

do you have anything better to do with your time then make useless forum post's?

[Vampy]

One troll account.

One incendiary posting.

14 + pages of responses.

You know, if trolling could be monetized, the OP would be making a killing off this.

Even as a troll post this is an issue that does need to be addressed. Just that it may be a bit late to try but who knows maybe there is still hope for ship 2 and us foreigners as a whole.

[gigawuts]

"Gaijin" is a pretty commonly used term in Japan to describe foreigners, so not necessarily. It's not even always considered rude, as long as you keep it within friends or the context is light hearted.

If you call someone that you don't know (who looks foreign) a Gaijin, then it's quite rude (it's negative form of the word meaning "foreigner", so it's kind of like saying "stupid foreigner"), but that should be obvious, should it not? No matter what country you're from that could be considered rude in almost any context. It's not really simple to explain. Sometimes it's just easier to say 外人 simply because it's a shorter word. It really is not so simple, it depends on context.

Basically it's like calling random people tourists.

[Triple_S]

I hate you.

You suck at this game.

Join my party so I can carry you in TD2.

Oh please. My Gu/Te carries all of you. If it wasn't for me, those walls might as well not even exist!

i would never actually bring that class to TD and especially not TD2, you may sleep easy

[btw-Niji]

do you have anything better to do with your time then make useless forum post's?
I think you should look back at some of your posts. ^^;

[pkemr4]

I think you should look back at some of your posts. ^^;

right back at ya

[Enforcer MKV]

Popcorn, malt balls, get your snacks folks!

[strikerhunter]

Popcorn, malt balls, get your snacks folks!

malt balls? why no meatballs?

As for the thread, I've never ran into a JP player saying anything about Foreign players. They also have lobby rats of their own but not in such a large number and concentrated like b20 does.

[Enforcer MKV]

malt balls? why no meatballs?

Because that'd be too cliche.

Duh. :wacko:

[Zipzo]

Basically it's like calling random people tourists.

This would actually be quite accurate.


One troll account.

One incendiary posting.

14 + pages of responses.

You know, if trolling could be monetized, the OP would be making a killing off this.

No, not really.

I'd say a strong latter % of the discussion has been on the actual concept of the issue simply because it's an interesting topic to discuss, not being "trolled" by the OP. If anything I would say his attempt to troll failed really, as all it really did was spawn reasonable discussion.

[SakoHaruo]

16 pages of this shit? :wacko:

[CelestialBlade]

I didn't know kids still used the term gaijin like quasi-hipster racists. Huh.

Bets on when this hits FKL?

[milranduil]

I didn't know kids still used the term gaijin like quasi-hipster racists. Huh.

Bets on when this hits FKL?

Gaijin is much more general than a racist term, as has been said before. The word you are looking for is nationalist.

[TaigaUC]

this wouldnt be a problem if the JP's actually told players or Try to tell them in broken english to use whisper chat instead of just ignoreing it and let keep going.

I've seen many JP and EN people try to tell them, many times before.
They just go "ITS A FREE WORLD" or "FUCK OFF" or such.

They don't see a problem being rude, and if someone tries to reason with them, they get OFFENDED and start accusing everyone of being "racist", "misogynist" or such.
Pretty much the problem with modern society. Hardly anyone wants to be reasonable.

[Shinamori]

I've seen that too.

[Zenobia]

I've seen many JP and EN people try to tell them, many times before.
They just go "ITS A FREE WORLD" or "FUCK OFF" or such.

They don't see a problem being rude, and if someone tries to reason with them, they get OFFENDED and start accusing everyone of being "racist", "misogynist" or such.
Pretty much the problem with modern society. Hardly anyone wants to be reasonable.

I've actually seen this try to tell anyone in B-20 that and watch what happens.

[Vintasticvin]

malt balls? why no meatballs?



You want his balls so bad you can taste them?

[Zenobia]

You want his balls so bad you can taste them?

WUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!? VIN NO JUST....PG-13 PLS!?

[Vintasticvin]

WUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!? VIN NO JUST....

Hey not my fault the guy is desperately hungry for Ens balls in his mouth and is afraid of saying so.

[Angelo]

I'm usually with people on the whole "JP = polite. Foreigner = rude" thing, but I thought that was the whole point of lobbies?

[strikerhunter]

You want his balls so bad you can taste them?

WUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!? VIN NO JUST....PG-13 PLS!?

Hey not my fault the guy is desperately hungry for Ens balls in his mouth and is afraid of saying so.


[SPOILER-BOX]
http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Enforcer MKV]

Hey not my fault the guy is desperately hungry for Ens balls in his mouth and is afraid of saying so.

I..uh....*ahem* LOOK, A DISTRACTION!

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/WYS28u0.gif[/SPOILER-BOX]

*Drags Vinny off for a lecture*

[yoshiblue]

Babies ever after. El Fin

[TaigaUC]

Ugh, I hate this time of day. Every block I enter is just EN people gathered in a big fat group in front of the quest counter, spamming Symbol Art.

[Freshellent]

I have something to contribute to this conversation!

[spoiler-box] COCKS [/spoiler-box]

[Vintasticvin]

I..uh....*ahem* LOOK, A DISTRACTION!

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/WYS28u0.gif[/SPOILER-BOX]

*Drags Vinny off for a lecture*

*Shoots the cat while being dragged away* I don't need a lecture.

Anyho back to the main topic before I went on about person A wanting person B's "Meat Balls" as outsiders of Japan who I feel its important we respect their ways especially my fellow westerners. Keep most chatter low toned aint nobody wanting to hear you talk about some player you kicked who didn't meet your standards, or your newest affixed rare you finally got after weeks of grinding maps for it, or whatever but if there is more than four people in the conversation well I guess I dunno how they would handle such a thing.

[Zorafim]

Whatever happened to the meet and greet events.

They tend to be decently successful, and aren't too hard to set up. You could probably organize one if you wanted, and have a few people show up.


As much as we bitch at each other on the forums like a bunch of assholes sometimes, most of us tend to be a lot nicer in-game.

I have no idea why that is.

I just wrote an essay on that. It's a simple phenomenon. The best way I think to describe it is like this.
You're driving along in a car. You see someone driving slowly in front of you. You switch lanes, and drive forward. Likely, you'll call the driver a stupid noob (or whatever the road variation of that is), switch lanes, and zoom past them.
Similar scenario: You're walking along on a sidewalk. You see someone walking slowly in front of you. You go around them, possibly wave depending on where you are, and keep on walking.

It's the exact same situation. However, in the first part, you're passing a "car"; and in the second, you're passing a person. A car isn't a person. A car is a faceless obstacle on your way to work. Therefore, it's not worth the same respect a person is.
This isn't what you're conciously thinking. But, it's what your mind is using as a basis for its actions.

I believe this translates directly to internet conduct. In the game, it's easy to see you're communicating with a person. There's a unique face, and a body which reacts to what you say. On the forums however, people are just words floating around the internet. We can't see past that. So we treat them like we would treat a broken tool or an old commercial.


In short, people are jerks on the internet because they aren't fully aware that they're talking to people. They're more respectful in game because it's more obvious they're in a social situation. It takes a bit of training to get past this point, unfortunately.

[Kondibon]

They tend to be decently successful, and aren't too hard to set up. You could probably organize one if you wanted, and have a few people show up.



I just wrote an essay on that. It's a simple phenomenon. The best way I think to describe it is like this.
You're driving along in a car. You see someone driving slowly in front of you. You switch lanes, and drive forward. Likely, you'll call the driver a stupid noob (or whatever the road variation of that is), switch lanes, and zoom past them.
Similar scenario: You're walking along on a sidewalk. You see someone walking slowly in front of you. You go around them, possibly wave depending on where you are, and keep on walking.

It's the exact same situation. However, in the first part, you're passing a "car"; and in the second, you're passing a person. A car isn't a person. A car is a faceless obstacle on your way to work. Therefore, it's not worth the same respect a person is.
This isn't what you're conciously thinking. But, it's what your mind is using as a basis for its actions.

I believe this translates directly to internet conduct. In the game, it's easy to see you're communicating with a person. There's a unique face, and a body which reacts to what you say. On the forums however, people are just words floating around the internet. We can't see past that. So we treat them like we would treat a broken tool or an old commercial.


In short, people are jerks on the internet because they aren't fully aware that they're talking to people. They're more respectful in game because it's more obvious they're in a social situation. It takes a bit of training to get past this point, unfortunately.
http://www.drodd.com/images10/clapping-gif2.gif

[Retehi]

http://apocalypse-tribe.com/rdfox/aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.jpg

[Freshellent]

-Actually on topic and helpful post-

You know that I'm basically the same person online as I am in person. Just a lot less yellow and golds.

[Punisher106]

I've seen many JP and EN people try to tell them, many times before.
They just go "ITS A FREE WORLD" or "FUCK OFF" or such.


I was in a team, one time, running an EQ, where the MPA was ful of JP players. The person I was running with was in the team, shouting out in public, in english. I told him to cut it out with the english in public. He responded with "MAYBE THE JAPS NEED TO LEARN ENGLISH."

I quit the team, the next day.

[Triple_S]

They tend to be decently successful, and aren't too hard to set up. You could probably organize one if you wanted, and have a few people show up.



I just wrote an essay on that. It's a simple phenomenon. The best way I think to describe it is like this.
You're driving along in a car. You see someone driving slowly in front of you. You switch lanes, and drive forward. Likely, you'll call the driver a stupid noob (or whatever the road variation of that is), switch lanes, and zoom past them.
Similar scenario: You're walking along on a sidewalk. You see someone walking slowly in front of you. You go around them, possibly wave depending on where you are, and keep on walking.

It's the exact same situation. However, in the first part, you're passing a "car"; and in the second, you're passing a person. A car isn't a person. A car is a faceless obstacle on your way to work. Therefore, it's not worth the same respect a person is.
This isn't what you're conciously thinking. But, it's what your mind is using as a basis for its actions.

I believe this translates directly to internet conduct. In the game, it's easy to see you're communicating with a person. There's a unique face, and a body which reacts to what you say. On the forums however, people are just words floating around the internet. We can't see past that. So we treat them like we would treat a broken tool or an old commercial.


In short, people are jerks on the internet because they aren't fully aware that they're talking to people. They're more respectful in game because it's more obvious they're in a social situation. It takes a bit of training to get past this point, unfortunately.

See I've came up with similar thoughts to this before... but the thing that always made me rethink it is how well we can stand out on a forum before our post is even read. Avatar and signature combinations can mark specific people really easily, which should change how you perceive the post on a subconscious level.

So I'm curious: do you think that phenomenon of treating posts as if they didn't come from people is curbed somewhat by unique avatar and signature combinations? Like, I can scroll down a thread skimming it and notice your posts immediately. But someone like me? Well I have no signature right now. I'm one of like two or three people using this particular avatar, but avatars are much smaller and as such often go unnoticed.

[Chdata]

There are two types of people who post on forums:

1. People who just post.

2. People who realize they have a lot more time to think about what they're saying.

3. People like me who are like category 2 who just post most of the time if it isn't something about science, religion, politics, or philosophy.

[Zipzo]

I just wrote an essay on that. It's a simple phenomenon. The best way I think to describe it is like this.

You're driving along in a car. You see someone driving slowly in front of you. You switch lanes, and drive forward. Likely, you'll call the driver a stupid noob (or whatever the road variation of that is), switch lanes, and zoom past them.

Similar scenario: You're walking along on a sidewalk. You see someone walking slowly in front of you. You go around them, possibly wave depending on where you are, and keep on walking.

It's the exact same situation. However, in the first part, you're passing a "car"; and in the second, you're passing a person. A car isn't a person. A car is a faceless obstacle on your way to work. Therefore, it's not worth the same respect a person is. This isn't what you're consciously thinking, but it's what your mind is using as a basis for its actions.

I believe this translates directly to internet conduct. In the game, it's easy to see you're communicating with a person. There's a unique face, and a body which reacts to what you say. On the forums however, people are just words floating around the internet. We can't see past that. So we treat them like we would treat a broken tool or an old commercial.

In short, people are jerks on the internet because they aren't fully aware that they're talking to people. They're more respectful in game because it's more obvious they're in a social situation. It takes a bit of training to get past this point, unfortunately.

Right on.

Though I wouldn't exactly say that "in-game" is the total realization of that example, since I think there's a bigger gap in-between how people act in-game and how they act face-to-face compared to the one between how they act on a forum and how they act in-game.

In fact it's not really too far-fetched to say that for a lot of folks, how they act in-game and how they are on the forums can be indiscernible, because maybe for a lot of folks, the two modes of communication are essentially the same. Floating (or stable) text on a screen. Sometimes a virtual body and face that depicts a fantasy character is still just not enough to trigger a persons conscious apprehension of a human being on the other side.

It doesn't even really all flow in that direction. Even the "victims" of that sort of abuse (in terms of online gaming) are guilty. That's the whole reason the word "troll" exists. In return for their lack of empathy from other humans who choose to (or even sub-consciously) ignore that people over the internet are people, they've created an insult that is essentially valid and A-OK to use as a return. A troll is essentially a sub-human, fantasy-esque creature, and in history has always had very little going for it both physically and in the company of others.

So if you think about it, it's actually a vicious & perpetual cycle. Someone who is considered a troll may actually be more motivated to continue being a troll simply because they are called a troll so often. To be mis-judged (because a human obviously can't possibly be a troll) as something that, in its dichotomy doesn't even exist...can seem sub-consciously amusing. Therefore, we have the seeking of flames and internet arguing, all fettered by the already present conclusion that they care not for the folks they egg on for already stated reasons. It's worth noting that there are folks who can be identical between all forms of communication, and it could be for a whole host of reasons. Naivety, simple and blunt honesty to oneself...people tend to differ in great amounts. The scale and variety in which folks can be different is essentially much wider on the internet, because we have the option to be anyone we want.

There's definitely plenty of fuel for research papers there, though I think China figured all of this out already, which is why they control the internet in their country.

[Triple_S]

See, these kinds of threads are always worth watching, because eventually you get to see actual insightful discussion rise from the bitching.

It's wonderful.

[btw-Niji]

smoke weed everyday

[Macman]

So I'm curious: do you think that phenomenon of treating posts as if they didn't come from people is curbed somewhat by unique avatar and signature combinations? Like, I can scroll down a thread skimming it and notice your posts immediately. But someone like me? Well I have no signature right now. I'm one of like two or three people using this particular avatar, but avatars are much smaller and as such often go unnoticed.

I don't care about avatar other than as a short cut of "oh it's either one of three possible people" or one specific person if the forum allows custom avatars.

Here let me spin this in a wild negative fashion for your idea for kicks and giggles:
You're a Sonic fan, thus, your standards are low and I should not really value your opinions too highly on the subject of anything game related. :wacko:
This is purely satirical and I feel I shouldn't need to put this disclaimer here but this is PSO-W

Now try it on me.

[Zorafim]

You know that I'm basically the same person online as I am in person. Just a lot less yellow and golds.

From what I've seen, there's not too much difference between you communicating to a block of text and you responding to a voice. Perhaps you are actually aware you're talking to other humans. Or perhaps, you don't need to put on airs when talking to other people, and are naturally as courteous as you normally are. This can happen as well.


I was in a team, one time, running an EQ, where the MPA was ful of JP players. The person I was running with was in the team, shouting out in public, in english. I told him to cut it out with the english in public. He responded with "MAYBE THE JAPS NEED TO LEARN ENGLISH."

I quit the team, the next day.

The actions of one member shouldn't effect your view of the whole group. I can't say you chose the right action there. That member deserved a reprimand, and perhaps the rest of the team was alright.
Or, maybe they were all like that. I don't know.


So I'm curious: do you think that phenomenon of treating posts as if they didn't come from people is curbed somewhat by unique avatar and signature combinations?

Oh absolutely. The instant I see a signature, I know much more about the person I'm talking to.

[ShinMaruku]

My sig tells nothing of me. :E

[isCasted]

Russians use only Team chat/Voice chat!!!
:)

Erm...

2014-04-07T15:53:50 29 PUBLIC 10182164 Риса нуб иди в свой блок не занимай места
("Go away, noob. You are taking space")

I saw that yesterday before TD2 in B17. I'm pretty sure that newbie couldn't speak Russian too.

I'm glad you can organize your people, I know they are gentle, but you can't say same for sure about other teams.

[Chdata]

From what I've seen, there's not too much difference between you communicating to a block of text and you responding to a voice.

lol

it's a world of difference, despite some similarities

none of you would be able to guess what type of person I am like irl from my posts, at all.

at best you'd know some of my interests.

[BIG OLAF]

none of you would be able to guess what type of person I am like irl from my posts, at all.

I'm pretty sure that's, oh, just about everyone on the internet.

[Tomo-Kinji]

Popcorn, malt balls, get your snacks folks!

[SPOILER-BOX]http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/stephen-colbert-popcorn-gif1.gif
This and another thread. Worth a pack of popcorns[/SPOILER-BOX]

[gigawuts]

itt: person states the obvious, gets a bunch of "right on" and "this" replies

[Z-0]

itt: person states the obvious, gets a bunch of "right on" and "this" replies
this.

[Zipzo]

itt: person states the obvious, gets a bunch of "right on" and "this" replies

Well it's one thing to know the answer, it's a completely different thing to understand the order of operation in which you get there by.

When it comes to sociological issues, that's the most interesting part of the process.

[Cyclon]

Right on.

Though I wouldn't exactly say that "in-game" is the total realization of that example, since I think there's a bigger gap in-between how people act in-game and how they act face-to-face compared to the one between how they act on a forum and how they act in-game.

In fact it's not really too far-fetched to say that for a lot of folks, how they act in-game and how they are on the forums can be indiscernible, because maybe for a lot of folks, the two modes of communication are essentially the same. Floating (or stable) text on a screen. Sometimes a virtual body and face that depicts a fantasy character is still just not enough to trigger a persons conscious apprehension of a human being on the other side.

It doesn't even really all flow in that direction. Even the "victims" of that sort of abuse (in terms of online gaming) are guilty. That's the whole reason the word "troll" exists. In return for their lack of empathy from other humans who choose to (or even sub-consciously) ignore that people over the internet are people, they've created an insult that is essentially valid and A-OK to use as a return. A troll is essentially a sub-human, fantasy-esque creature, and in history has always had very little going for it both physically and in the company of others.
Eeeeeeh I'm pretty sure that's not what trolling is about most of the time. Trolling is really about the victims. Without any victim, there is no trolling to be done, and as such, most trolls are actually better at recognizing that these "floating words" are really people that can potentially rage at them. The reason trolling is a thing in the first place is because it's easy, and generally guarantees an at least slightly fulfilling result no matter what. So it's easy entertainment with almost no risk involved, because internet.

I'd actually argue in general that people don't yell at cars but really at the people inside, and simply aren't applying any rule of courtesy because no consequences are involved whatsoever, so why bother. Of course what Zorafim said is also true, but I don't believe that's the main reason. The opposite could be seen as, insulting actually. People aren't that unaware of the world around them. It's just... convenient to ignore some things when we are allowed to.

Tl;dr: You believe people are idiots, while I believe they're assholes. And I don't seriously believe any of these two statements are correct.

[btw-Niji]

itt: person states the obvious, gets a bunch of "right on" and "this" replies
right on

[btw-Niji]

Oh and you're all poor.

[btw-Niji]

We need Arksenth here. Somebody call him.

[Nulve]

Keep in mind, on this forum, a lot of them think it's perfectly okay to nosily check other peoples' gear and compare what they have equipped, so I'm not surprised they all love to public chat as well. They're self-entitled and have no manners, like you say.

[DJcooltrainer]

Or maybe you're the self-entitled one who thinks you can go anywhere you want without the 'annoyance' of people speaking to eachother. Just get over it.

[Kondibon]

Most of the people I see on this forum who care enough about gear to complain about it here, when they see someone under-geared, are the same ones who think the majority of english speaking players are the scum of the earth and avoid them. So I'm not sure where you're finding a correlation Nulve.

[pkemr4]

Keep in mind, on this forum, a lot of them think it's perfectly okay to nosily check other peoples' gear and compare what they have equipped, so I'm not surprised they all love to public chat as well. They're self-entitled and have no manners, like you say.

theres something wrong when you see people with tagumi units with shit affix's and crafted to boot for it + having crafted 1-3* weps hell just yesterday night i encountered someone with a ungrinded WL in TD2.

[Inazuma]

Most of the people I see on this forum who care enough about gear to complain about it here, when they see someone under-geared, are the same ones who think the majority of english speaking players are the scum of the earth and avoid them. So I'm not sure where you're finding a correlation Nulve.

That makes sense. The kind of person who thinks it's bad to spam the lobbies would also think that is it bad to leech during quests. In other words, they think that people should be more considerate of others in general.

[infiniteeverlasting]

Keep in mind, on this forum, a lot of them think it's perfectly okay to nosily check other peoples' gear and compare what they have equipped, so I'm not surprised they all love to public chat as well. They're self-entitled and have no manners, like you say.

It's a good thing we can see other people' info . Personally, I only bother checking character info of other players to judge my chances of td2 success, the moment I feel that the ratio of force to braver has risen over 5:7, I automatically ditch block. And I do another double check when we enter teleporter so I can check that we have no idiots with crafted 10 star weaps, if I see it, I also Ditch party. Call me selfish but I don't want to waste time failin TD. Finally if I'm first for more than 3 waves in a row, I may ditch as well, unless the wall seems pretty intact.

[DJcooltrainer]

That makes sense. The kind of person who thinks it's bad to spam the lobbies would also think that is it bad to leech during quests. In other words, they think that people should be more considerate of others in general.

Which is funny, because from my experiences they're usually some of the least considerate people to play any game with, not just PSO2. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The type of person who is deeply bothered by text on their screen should try and get out more often and figure out there's REAL problems in the world you should be far more concerned with. It's such a stupid, trivial thing that has zero impact on your life. People just need to shut up about it and realize that people choose to communicate and participate in the game in different ways.

[Tenlade]

It's a good thing we can see other people' info . Personally, I only bother checking character info of other players to judge my chances of td2 success, the moment I feel that the ratio of force to braver has risen over 5:7, I automatically ditch block. And I do another double check when we enter teleporter so I can check that we have no idiots with crafted 10 star weaps, if I see it, I also Ditch party. Call me selfish but I don't want to waste time failin TD. Finally if I'm first for more than 3 waves in a row, I may ditch as well, unless the wall seems pretty intact.

Ugh, We're back to checking people's gear again (or never stopped I guess). I Thought I had gotten away from that garbage when I left that blue burst server that shan't be named.

For all the etiquette talk, its pretty darn rude and selfish to ditch a party because they aren't going as good as you want it to. Scrubs aren't going to get good if you just ditch them to lose every single time, infact they'll just have to lose and join you on the next round having learned nothing.

[Nulve]

It's a good thing we can see other people' info . Personally, I only bother checking character info of other players to judge my chances of td2 success, the moment I feel that the ratio of force to braver has risen over 5:7, I automatically ditch block. And I do another double check when we enter teleporter so I can check that we have no idiots with crafted 10 star weaps, if I see it, I also Ditch party. Call me selfish but I don't want to waste time failin TD. Finally if I'm first for more than 3 waves in a row, I may ditch as well, unless the wall seems pretty intact.

Yes, you're being selfish. Instead of being a team player and giving it your all, despite the circumstances, you're only concerned about yourself, and you think it's okay to ditch others who are still trying; It's rude.

Again, this self-entitled Gaijin attitude. Fair enough, it's rude when JP players act like dicks as well, but they have more right to than us Gaijin. We should just be lucky and appreciate that we're even allowed to play this game, and take every scrap we can get and not ask for more.

[Walkure]

PSO-W: Attack on Gaijin

[infiniteeverlasting]

Ugh, We're back to checking people's gear again (or never stopped I guess). I Thought I had gotten away from that garbage when I left that blue burst server that shan't be named.

For all the etiquette talk, its pretty darn rude and selfish to ditch a party because they aren't going as good as you want it to. Scrubs aren't going to get good if you just ditch them to lose every single time, infact they'll just have to lose and join you on the next round having learned nothing.

I exaggerated ther. I usdually try to stay a little longer in order to see our chances. But you know you'll fail if you see shunkas produce 2000s and namegids on dagans. From what I've seen thus far, 95% of the time when the walls break down wave one is when there is not enough bravers and gunners in the party.

[gigawuts]

Which is funny, because from my experiences they're usually some of the least considerate people to play any game with, not just PSO2. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The type of person who is deeply bothered by text on their screen should try and get out more often and figure out there's REAL problems in the world you should be far more concerned with. It's such a stupid, trivial thing that has zero impact on your life. People just need to shut up about it and realize that people choose to communicate and participate in the game in different ways.

The thought that people who are annoyed by inconsiderate people have no life experience is, itself, fueled by a lack of life experience.

You need to go deeper.

[Vampy]

I live with the failure and move on hoping people learned something I am part of the issue as with TD2 since the computer I got stuck with is nowhere near as good as the one I started with. So everything lags for me so it gets disorienting.

Now for the people talking in lobbies and all. We should be respectful to the japanese players feelings. We should be happy they haven't put an IP ban on us we could at least be considerate of their feelings. Move to an unpopulated section of the lobby something. I'm new here so my opinion might not be heavily considered but that's fine by me as long as one person takes it in to consideration.

[UnLucky]

Ugh, We're back to checking people's gear again (or never stopped I guess). I Thought I had gotten away from that garbage when I left that blue burst server that shan't be named.

For all the etiquette talk, its pretty darn rude and selfish to ditch a party because they aren't going as good as you want it to. Scrubs aren't going to get good if you just ditch them to lose every single time, infact they'll just have to lose and join you on the next round having learned nothing.

Well they certainly aren't going to get good being carried every time!


The thought that people who are annoyed by inconsiderate people have no life experience is, itself, fueled by a lack of life experience.

You need to go deeper.
No, see, there are starving kids in Africa, therefore I can be a dickhead on the internet.

[Inazuma]

Which is funny, because from my experiences they're usually some of the least considerate people to play any game with, not just PSO2. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The type of person who is deeply bothered by text on their screen should try and get out more often and figure out there's REAL problems in the world you should be far more concerned with. It's such a stupid, trivial thing that has zero impact on your life. People just need to shut up about it and realize that people choose to communicate and participate in the game in different ways.

Just because there are things more important than games doesn't mean that games don't matter whatsoever and you can be a huge asshole all the time when you play games.

Did you ever stop and think that the other characters in your game are controlled by real human beings? And what if the majority of those players are upset by your actions? It doesn't matter to you if you are pissing off many people?

PSO2 is a Japanese game. Etiquette actually exists, unlike every English game. You wouldn't go to the busy streets in Japan and scream stupid shit nonstop, would you? Then why is that OK to do that in virtual Japan?

[Kondibon]

I find this whole thread funny because ANYONE having a conversation in the lobby bothers me, regardless of which language they speak, and I'm pretty sure it's because of the sound the game makes when anyone talks near you. Seriously "swish... swish.... swish swish... swish... swishswishswish.... swish *SA noise*... ... ... swish"

Would anyone actually give a crap about people chatting in the lobby if it didn't make all that noise?

[DJcooltrainer]

Comparing an online game to real life is just silly, though. In PSO2 I can move to a different area or a different block if people are bothering me. It's only text on a screen, I can chose to not to read it. We also have blacklists. In real life, it's a bit of a different situation at times. I might not be able to leave the area if someone bothers me, I can't add them to a blacklist.

If someone is spamming something derogatory or blatantly obscene in the lobby, feel free to tell them off. That's normal. If someone is just deciding to have a friendly chat with other players, let them do their thing. It has absolutely zero impact on you personally.

And for the record, I actually don't really speak in nearby chat much at all and I don't even use SA's, but I try and be respectful of those who like to chat with other players in public because their choices do not have a negative impact on my life or my enjoyment of the game.

[infiniteeverlasting]

Yes, you're being selfish. Instead of being a team player and giving it your all, despite the circumstances, you're only concerned about yourself, and you think it's okay to ditch others who are still trying; It's rude.

Again, this self-entitled Gaijin attitude. Fair enough, it's rude when JP players act like dicks as well, but they have more right to than us Gaijin. We should just be lucky and appreciate that we're even allowed to play this game, and take every scrap we can get and not ask for more.

Don't I have the right to decide to not waste boosters? I play on a Dell laptop with super lag and still place consistently 4th overall on successful runs. No I'm not a shunka spammer so I'm not your typical scrub complaining about not being carried in TD.

[Kondibon]

Comparing an online game to real life is just silly, though. In PSO2 I can move to a different area or a different block if people are bothering me. It's only text on a screen, I can chose to not to read it. We also have blacklists. In real life, it's a bit of a different situation at times. I might not be able to leave the area if someone bothers me, I can't add them to a blacklist.

If someone is spamming something derogatory or blatantly obscene in the lobby, feel free to tell them off. That's normal. If someone is just deciding to have a friendly chat with other players, let them do their thing. It has absolutely zero impact on you personally.

And for the record, I actually don't really speak in nearby chat much at all and I don't even use SA's, but I try and be respectful of those who like to chat with other players in public because their choices do not have a negative impact on my life or my enjoyment of the game.I want to agree with you, but that fucking noise man...

[btw-Niji]

I wish we could blacklist people IRL

[gigawuts]

Comparing an online game to real life is just silly, though. In PSO2 I can move to a different area or a different block if people are bothering me. It's only text on a screen, I can chose to not to read it. We also have blacklists. In real life, it's a bit of a different situation at times. I might not be able to leave the area if someone bothers me, I can't add them to a blacklist.

If someone is spamming something derogatory or blatantly obscene in the lobby, feel free to tell them off. That's normal. If someone is just deciding to have a friendly chat with other players, let them do their thing. It has absolutely zero impact on you personally.

And for the record, I actually don't really speak in nearby chat much at all and I don't even use SA's, but I try and be respectful of those who like to chat with other players in public because their choices do not have a negative impact on my life or my enjoyment of the game.

If that noise didn't play (as Kondi has said), it didn't obscure my view of the game, and it didn't flood my chat box I might agree.

But it does all of those things.

So, uh, no. I can't always just go to another area. I can't always just tune it out because it's literally impossible to block from my chat box without flipping around channel filters that I can't modify. Kudos to Sega for designing a chat interface trumped by IRC clients developed in the late 80's.

[DJcooltrainer]

I find the noise soothing, personally. ^^ But I usually play with my music off and sfx turned down low so I can watch TV or listen to music while I play, so I don't really notice.

Sega should add the option to disable chat sounds, really.

[gigawuts]

They should allow

Player-created chat channels
Chat bubbles being turned on/off for each channel
Chat bubbles not displaying for people not on your friends list (in specific or all channels)
Tabs that you can customize which channels will display and which won't
Custom bubble/message sounds
Other standard elements of UI design conceived in the last two decades that browser-based games have had down pat the entire time

But hey, it's better than PSO1's obsurd chat history window. Good lord, that was some bullshit.

[Kondibon]

If that noise didn't play (as Kondi has said), it didn't obscure my view of the game, and it didn't flood my chat box I might agree.
Would be nice if we had the option to turn them off like we can with Team Chat, hell, even MABI lets you hide the chat... I'm pretty sure there IS an option to turn off SAs. I haven't tried it though so I'm not sure.

[btw-Niji]

They should allow

Player-created chat channels
Chat bubbles being turned on/off for each channel
Chat bubbles not displaying for people not on your friends list (in specific or all channels)
Tabs that you can customize which channels will display and which won't
Custom bubble/message sounds
Other standard elements of UI design conceived in the last two decades that browser-based games have had down pat the entire time

But hey, it's better than PSO1's obsurd chat history window. Good lord, that was some bullshit.
right on.

[Shadowth117]

Just because there are things more important than games doesn't mean that games don't matter whatsoever and you can be a huge asshole all the time when you play games.

Did you ever stop and think that the other characters in your game are controlled by real human beings? And what if the majority of those players are upset by your actions? It doesn't matter to you if you are pissing off many people?

PSO2 is a Japanese game. Etiquette actually exists, unlike every English game. You wouldn't go to the busy streets in Japan and scream stupid shit nonstop, would you? Then why is that OK to do that in virtual Japan?

Surprisingly, I was with you until that last part. You fail to grasp that English speaking players might *gasp* have their OWN form of etiquette! No way, right? That's insane. That another culture could have their own method of dealing with behavior. Ah, but you know everything don't you? So that can't be true.

And I'm sorry, people aren't allowed to chat walking down the street? I lived in Okinawa a good 2 years or so. Honestly there's a greater stigma against foreigners there than the rest of Japan and I got dirty looks on walking into a shop at times for being white, but I seriously don't think anyone got openly upset over my family and I conversing in English walking down the street. We pretty much got treated like anyone speaking a non dominant language in a country. Really wasn't much different than when I visited Germany or Italy later on as far the attitude portrayed towards me.

Of course, if you were to literally scream things out in most settings, regardless of language, people would probably find it obnoxious. I ain't gonna go and say that Japanese cultural etiquette shouldn't be respected, because most of us are aware there's a proper manner set pending situations, but your ignorant thoughts on anything unrelated to Japan should stop.

Edit:

They should allow

Player-created chat channels
Chat bubbles being turned on/off for each channel
Chat bubbles not displaying for people not on your friends list (in specific or all channels)
Tabs that you can customize which channels will display and which won't
Custom bubble/message sounds
Other standard elements of UI design conceived in the last two decades that browser-based games have had down pat the entire time

But hey, it's better than PSO1's obsurd chat history window. Good lord, that was some bullshit.

YES YES YES YES

[Walkure]

They should allow

Player-created chat channels
Chat bubbles being turned on/off for each channel
Chat bubbles not displaying for people not on your friends list (in specific or all channels)
Tabs that you can customize which channels will display and which won't
Custom bubble/message sounds
Other standard elements of UI design conceived in the last two decades that browser-based games have had down pat the entire time
Make this dependent on account rather than ship so it can be cross-ship, maybe. That'd be a nice feature.


right on.This.

[Kondibon]

Make this dependent on account rather than ship so it can be cross-ship, maybe. That'd be a nice feature.
It sounds like the kind of thing that would be client sided anyway.

EDIT: Derp, I missread. I was thinking of something else. Nevermind.

[UnLucky]

They should allow

Player-created chat channels
Chat bubbles being turned on/off for each channel
Chat bubbles not displaying for people not on your friends list (in specific or all channels)
Tabs that you can customize which channels will display and which won't
Custom bubble/message sounds
Other standard elements of UI design conceived in the last two decades that browser-based games have had down pat the entire time

But hey, it's better than PSO1's obsurd chat history window. Good lord, that was some bullshit.
QFT　　

[btw-Niji]

QFT　　
this.

[Shadowth117]

It sounds like the kind of thing that would be client sided anyway.

It could be, but it would be best to keep it on the server side so that we don't give people even easier methods to whisper everyone in the ship.

But seriously, all of that stuff named should be a feature.

[DJcooltrainer]

I wonder if the sound files in PSO2 are able to be modified. It seems like finding the chat bubble and SA sound effects and pushing the volume down to -48dB would be a fairly easy task, right? Might as well take things into your own hands instead of hoping Sega will decide to improve things of their own accord.

[gigawuts]

It should be technically possible, however I believe all of those files have been encrypted multiple times. We could go to the guys running the english patch, but re-encrypting modified text files is quite a different thing compared to re-encrypting modified audio files.

[UnLucky]

Banned for client modification.

Yeah, most we could do ourselves is delete something that may or may not include other files as well.

[DJcooltrainer]

It should be technically possible, however I believe all of those files have been encrypted multiple times. We could go to the guys running the english patch, but re-encrypting modified text files is quite a different thing compared to re-encrypting modified audio files.

Ah, that really sucks, I didn't realize how heavily encrypted the game data for PSO2 is. I guess they don't want us making trap remixes with EMERHJENCY CODE: DISTRAUCTION samples :(


Banned for client modification.

Yeah, most we could do ourselves is delete something that may or may not include other files as well.

Well, so far people have been able to modify and re-encrypt text data without being banned for client modification. Is there a reason this wouldn't work with audio (despite being more work, obviously)? I suppose it's not something you could really do on your own, unless you can decrypt and re-encrypt the game data, but wouldn't it be technically possible?

[Shadowth117]

Ah, that really sucks, I didn't realize how heavily encrypted the game data for PSO2 is. I guess they don't want us making trap remixes with EMERHJENCY CODE: DISTRAUCTION samples :(



Well, so far people have been able to modify and re-encrypt text data without being banned for client modification. Is there a reason this wouldn't work with audio (despite being more work, obviously)? I suppose it's not something you could really do on your own, unless you can decrypt and re-encrypt the game data, but wouldn't it be technically possible?

The main problem, being that the JP players don't want to see English lobby chat, remains so this doesn't really fix jack even if it could be done. And even if it could be done it would remove the chat sound from chat bubbles people were actually interested in. That's putting aside the fact that telling people to modify their client in order to avoid a few random peoples' musings is ridiculous in and of itself.

[DJcooltrainer]

The main problem, being that the JP players don't want to see English lobby chat, remains so this doesn't really fix jack even if it could be done. And even if it could be done it would remove the chat sound from chat bubbles people were actually interested in. That's putting aside the fact that telling people to modify their client in order to avoid a few random peoples' musings is ridiculous in and of itself.

Oh, please, I'm not offering that as a serious solution. I was just grasping at straws for the people who are really bothered by the chat bubble noise. I wasn't offering this as a solution for Japanese players at all. Lighten up a little bit, being so serious all the time is bad for your health.

I also just kinda had the thought that there is a lot of English text (non-tranlated) in this game. Is seeing English in the lobby really so infuriating for them? Kinda funny to think about. I guess people always have to be upset about something.

[夏目静香]

wow, so many replies. it took me a long time but i read everything everyone had posted here.
if i offended many people, i deeply apologize (⊃ω･｀｡)
people seem to care what my background is about, but is that really the issue here?
well here it is if anyone really wants to know...but you don't need to know since i'm a bit shy...w

like people assumed, i'm not a full japanese (only my grandfather was, so 1/4) but i look like one. i went to school in japan, the philippines, and in california. so yes, i'm not what you would call a real japanese and i call myself a gaijin because of how i was raised...hehehe. i am however currently living and working in japan. i work for the tokyo metropolitan government board of education and i do some promotion and graphics design as a side. i am not a neet! (´･ω･｀;｀）

like what people said here, some japanese can be just as bad too and they spam the chat as well...but most of the conversation they start can be welcoming for anyone to join in (well in japanese). just think about how you would feel about that, but in this case it is in english and the japanese does not know what it is. anyway, i see way more english 'unwelcoming' chats (and a lot of them are just saying things to one person that they could just whisper to each other) than the japanese ones...i'm just saying (´･(00)･｀)

yesterday, a japanese person got really angry like someone mentioned here to many foreigners talking freely in the b11 lobby chat and he started to use terrible words. this japanese person is out of the norm since most will just ignore it. of course, he gets ignored and is probably seen as someone crazy even by his peers. just don't assume that the japanese players are not bothered by it just because they don't say anything...even if they are it is difficult for them to express anything so all you will get is silence. i have foreign friends here in japan who knows this and they would just talk in their foreign languages if they do something bad (e.g. walking on the streets while smoking) and the cops would just leave them alone since they do not know what to do, (but what they wanted to do is to scold them or more) lol. well that's amusing though, hehehe. the same can be seen in public places around here...(mostly in tokyo...but it can be very different in other places like osaka since they are often more open-minded over there)

game-wise, there are a lot of terrible japanese players. the bad foreign players stands out way more though... and also several japanese players are elitists (they like checking gears and spending so much AC to get the best things available) so yea, if you do that tower emergency with let's say eight or ten foreigners, there is a high chance of failure for sure (ﾉдヽ*)

as an educator, this is also a problem here in japan...that difficulty of learning the english language. many japanese really do want to know how to speak english, they really do! as you know, the japanese people start learning english from kindergarten but they actually really start learning it during middle school. there are so many reasons why this is so difficult to learn for japanese people...but i just want to tell you that a lot of them do not know any english... even though japan is surrounded by english words (also don't assume japanese people will know what is the english equivalent of words in katakana, kinda sad but it's true...) they can study and memorize the english dictionary but when it comes to applying them into sentences, they have no damn idea what to do...

i just find it hard to believe sometimes that many foreigners expect the japanese players in this game to adapt to them... which should be vice versa~ also, just because you are paying customers, it does not warrant that you should get what you want. like what someone here said, it is like a house (a japanese house too, so you better take off your shoes like the rest do). so i might be imposing people to learn etiquette...but that is just the teacher in me screaming. maybe i should not even bother to make people learn proper manners since like you guys mentioned, there are a lot of culture differences that many don't want to recognize (and lol, it is online so why should they). i remember joining an english speaking team here and i did try to teach them etiquette and some japanese but most just don't want to. it is partially my fault for being pushy. but...i'm glad that some found my effort to be helpful, even just for a little bit. so i made several enemies with people because of my attitude in these things...(i also reported several gaijin hackers in my team as revenge...totally unrelated, lol). i can't blame them... and yes i agree about the chat option being stupid too (my blacklist was not working against my team mates!) w

again, i'm sorry if my post sounded like i was 'trolling'. i just want to understand what people in this community thought about this matter, and i have learned a lot. a friend told me that i should post here about my complaint (not really just my own personal complaint...) and so i did. but now, i know that a lot of you guys are very decent (and i felt glad that many of you guys are giving some effort to accommodate the japanese players in this game) and i feel bad that i was targeting all of you guys as a whole. thanks for all the posts and insights.　(○＾∇＾○)b

[DJcooltrainer]

^Don't feel bad about offending anyone on PSO-W, you could probably offend someone here by looking at them wrong.

Jokes aside, you do seem like a nice person, but it comes down to the fact that PSO2 is a game, and people shouldn't get so worked up over people chatting in a game. When you turn off your PC and go outside, it has no affect on you as a person. (If it does, you should stop playing video games and seek professional help.)

We all play video games to relax and have a good time, let's not forget that is what is most important.

[Zorafim]

A friend told me that i should post here about my complaint (not really just my own personal complaint...) and so i did.

And I'm honestly glad you did. Despite my view as a dirty gaijin, it is nice to know what the natives are thinking. And, you started some good discussion here (even if most of this thread might have been a waste of space).

And, since you seem to be new here: Welcome to PSO-world. Check out our picture and fashion threads, and enjoy the talent of the Fan-works forum.

[ShinMaruku]

Only thing that can be said is savor your moment of triumph, but remember victory has it's price.

[Macman]

OP you're a pretty cool dude if what you say is true, to come all the way to this mess of a forum and give everyone the other side's point of view takes some dedication.

I just wish all the in-game spammers came here to see this thread, but odds are they don't even know about this site.

[gigawuts]

OP you're a pretty cool dude if what you say is true, to come all the way to this mess of a forum and give everyone the other side's point of view.

I just wish all the in-game spammers came here to see this thread, but odds are they would yell louder because the beastie boys something something

Re-accuratization.

[Walkure]

Did you know that (You Gotta) Fight for Your Right (To Party!) was meant to parody and mock party scenes, and that the message was actually lost on most listeners?

[gigawuts]

Did you know that (You Gotta) Fight for Your Right (To Party!) was meant to parody and mock party scenes, and that the message was actually lost on most listeners?

That was one of the layers of the joke.

[Triple_S]

Re-accuratization.

God damn it. xD


But yeah. there's nothing wrong with voicing concerns and getting discussion going and it's good to do. Nothing worse than there being a problem and no one even trying to discuss it. Also I think bad foreign players stand out more because, well, they already attract attention by being foreigners, so mistakes are noticed. That and the community is smaller and more spread out so it's much harder for foreign players to learn what's good and what's not... leading to them doing what they want and then feeling embarrassed and defensive when criticised for making bad choices they had no idea about.

As for more foreigners using offensive language or just being rude in general, sometimes it's a difference in culture but there are some people that not only say very nasty things but also just talk way more, leading to a lot of uncomfortable players, native or otherwise. I'd say I wished more Japanese players would speak out against these particular individuals, if I didn't think that it'd turn into an anti-foreigner shitstorm that'd end poorly.

[UMVC3_Wolverine]

Western Players in a nutshell....

During Lilipia TA they all go east and ignore north. Then when they get to the boss they kill it and break the crystal before the player who went north gets there not giving him/her a chance at a 4slot mizer soul.

They like to spam poorly made dick SA's, A lot of them are very rude, they also love to ignore normal TA rules such as VH+SH TA lvl 50+ (they join being bellow 50).

These are just a few examples of what they do.

Weaboo or not I def understand where the TC is coming from.

[Triple_S]

Western Players in a nutshell....

During Lilipia TA they all go east and ignore north. Then when they get to the boss they kill it and break the crystal before the player who went north gets there not giving him/her a chance at a 4slot mizer soul.

They like to spam poorly made dick SA's, A lot of them are very rude, they also love to ignore normal TA rules such as VH+SH TA lvl 50+ (they join being bellow 50).

These are just a few examples of what they do.

Weaboo or not I def understand where the TC is coming from.

Generalizations about foreign players are exactly what the TC just apologized for even accidentally insinuating. Plus a lot of these problems stem from a lack of knowledge (not everyone hangs out on PSO-W or even r/pso2), so tell people and/or mark parties better. If people don't listen, kick them from the party... You can do that, right? I honestly wouldn't know because I've never had to do that.

[Shadowth117]

Western Players in a nutshell....

During Lilipia TA they all go east and ignore north. Then when they get to the boss they kill it and break the crystal before the player who went north gets there not giving him/her a chance at a 4slot mizer soul.

They like to spam poorly made dick SA's, A lot of them are very rude, they also love to ignore normal TA rules such as VH+SH TA lvl 50+ (they join being bellow 50).

These are just a few examples of what they do.

Weaboo or not I def understand where the TC is coming from.

Lets just generalize and stereotype everybody! Sweeping generalizations all around. Definitely the way to go. And man, that convenience bias.

You are truly an amazing source on this matter.

[MetalDude]

I too like to use selective anecdotes to stereotype entire playerbases.

[isCasted]

On subject of checking people's equipment... Do I need to remind that there are people with Falclaw+3 or crafted Susano Guren? I am not elitist, my own equipment is far from perfect, but at least it's at +10. I just want to ensure that people I'm going to play with are at least, well... bearable?

[Triple_S]

On subject of checking people's equipment... Do I need to remind that there are people with Falclaw+3 or crafted Susano Guren? I am not elitist, my own equipment is far from perfect, but at least it's at +10. I just want to ensure that people I'm going to play with are at least, well... bearable?

Hey hey, you don't know the story of that Falclaw+3 player. Don't tell them to grind it or you might trigger Dudu-related PTSD.

[Cyclon]

Touching comeback message from OP, short unconfortable silence, and then back to arguing.

Sounds about right.

OP, I pretty much said what I had to say in my post page I-don't-even-remember, so I really don't have much to add here; in any case, thanks for coming to this... place. Good game to you if you don't end up staying.

[isCasted]

Hey hey, you don't know the story of that Falclaw+3 player. Don't tell them to grind it or you might trigger Dudu-related PTSD.

I did. The answer was "I don't care".

Dudu can be unfair, but grinding is still bearable, especially after recent grinding improvement. I know how one can dislike affixing - it's expensive and outcome is minor. Grinding in this game is something that's supposed to make your equipment functional.

[Triple_S]

I did. The answer was "I don't care".

Oh great! They're probably off cradling their remaining Meseta in a fetal position in their Mini Room.

Or they died to a Rockbear.


You monster, Frisbee!

[Shadowth117]

On subject of checking people's equipment... Do I need to remind that there are people with Falclaw+3 or crafted Susano Guren? I am not elitist, my own equipment is far from perfect, but at least it's at +10. I just want to ensure that people I'm going to play with are at least, well... bearable?

I can feel it coming up. I'm going to go discharge some bile real quick.

More seriously, I find it very unfortunate that you've ever come upon that.

[Zorafim]

Actually, a non-grinded weapon makes the game's balance make much more sense. Instead of everything dying instantly, enemies take some effort to kill.
However, grinding makes such a huge improvement, that everybody does it. Because of that, the challenge has left the game.
I mean, my weapon's +10. But for a long time I had weapons at +7, because of law of diminishing returns and all that. It was only because of the fact that I use only my Kamuis that I bothered grinding and latenting it.

And what's wrong with checking someone's equipment? If they have pride in their equipment, they would love to show it off. If they don't, then they shouldn't care if someone sees what they have.