So about that shunka and S-roll Nerf

[Coatl]

Does anyone else think it's completely unecesary now? Look at FO. Look at RA. Holycrap. I'd say the classes are as balanced as they've ever been right now, excluding techer. FO is making melee work to hit their enemies again, and RA is just making toast of any boss with satellite cannon.

I know the shunka nerf wouldn't hurt braver too much as they have hatou to fall back on anyway, but nerfing S-roll would be a pretty big deal. I'm hoping Sega has reconsidered and have chosen to forget about the whole nerf idea.

[gigawuts]

Yes, by this point things are shifting in a way that classes are approaching equilibrium. Hunter and fighter are still a bit behind in terms of stopping power with that kind of speed and PP efficiency, and obviously so is techer, but 3 is not a majority of 7.

Ideally they'll rebalance hunter & fighter the same way they rebalanced ranger - adjust every single PA's damage, PP cost, or both, and fix individual PA bugs or nuisances (Like Diffuse Shell's loading animation being shortened significantly). Many wired lance PAs from launch are still very bugged, and not even one new WL PA benefits from WL gear. That's a bit dumb.

[Hobu]

And Hunters doing 250k over ends, wtf. I dunno what they buffed with Fighter PA's but my friend reported hitting more with some of his Photon Arts compared before.

[Xaeris]

I think that was what they said anyway; if the adjustments they were making to the peasant classes didn't make them more appealing to the community, they would move forward on those nerfs. I think they did good by Ranger and Force, and one of my friends seems to be in love with Hunter all over again, but Fighter and Techer could still do with some more love.

[gigawuts]

They boosted several melee PAs fairly significantly - just a handful, though. Over End, Tornado Dance, and Slide End. Flash Thousand also received a "bugged" boost a while back that they just left in.

Unlike Ranger's changes, these melee PAs are only boosted at level 16. Ranger's PAs are boosted at 15 too, and probably all the way down to 1. This kind of sucks if you can't roll dice well, like me. Of the dozens, possibly hundreds of Rogbelts I've killed in Super Hard I still have yet to find Flash Thousand 16. Thanks RNG.

[isCasted]

Katana was always a spam of a single strongest PA 90% of the time, so nerfing Shunka would bring everyone back to spamming Hatou, nerfing Hatou would lead to Sakura spam etc.

As for S-Roll nerf... It's not much about it being overpowered - it's about it being annoying. I wish I didn't have to flip before every PA - I don't want to use DODGE move to boost power of all RANGED attacks, and I want to be able to use all PAs from my weapon pallete rather than having multiple palletes where 2nd and 3rd combo slots are empty. Nowadays it's not broken in terms of power - it's broken in terms of gameplay mechanics.

[Silver Crow]

Katana was always a spam of a single strongest PA 90% of the time, so nerfing Shunka would bring everyone back to spamming Hatou, nerfing Hatou would lead to Sakura spam etc.

As for S-Roll nerf... It's not much about it being overpowered - it's about it being annoying. I wish I didn't have to flip before every PA - I don't want to use DODGE move to boost power of all RANGED attacks, and I want to be able to use all PAs from my weapon pallete rather than having multiple palletes where 2nd and 3rd combo slots are empty. Nowadays it's not broken in terms of power - it's broken in terms of gameplay mechanics.

I disagree with your GU point. You can use the combo pallete to stay in the air with Bullet squall, or get closer to the enemy with dead approach. it's better than the 3x Satellite Aim we had to do, GU actually looks cool flipping around, if you dislike the play style you shouldn't play it. Your palettes are empty because you're solely relying on S roll for damage, you can use the other slots for utility.

[Gardios]

As for S-Roll nerf... It's not much about it being overpowered

It's a 100% damage increase for 5 SP with a simple button press. S-Roll JA Bonus is all about being overpowered as hell.

[Silver Crow]

It's a 100% damage increase for 5 SP with a simple button press. S-Roll JA Bonus is all about being overpowered as hell.

simple button press my arse, you're sacrificing a lot more than you think. sure it's doubled your damage, but if you didn't need to S roll casting something like 3x Satellite aims in the moment it would take you to S roll, that's 3x vs 2x. I'm not saying it isn't a huge modifier, but when it came out it changed everyone's play style, it was refreshing and more fun. 3x Satellite Aim still out damages S rolled version, but s rolled Messiah kills 3x Satellite Aim. Which I don't mind since Messiah is more fun anyway.

if they tone it down to say 50% it would make Sattelite aim spam come back, I aint in the mood for that shit again

[Friyn]

I'm only going to say this. Damage is not the only factor here.

[gigawuts]

It's a 100% damage increase for 5 SP with a simple button press. S-Roll JA Bonus is all about being overpowered as hell.

To be fair, it's more like 9 sp for 100%

That's a difference of 20% per SP versus 11.111¯%, which is a lot more balanced. That's 80% less damage per SP, and is significantly closer to any given hunter skill's damage:SP efficiency.

Honestly my real gripe with sroll is getting 14 PP back every single sroll with the shots you fire, not the damage bonus. I'm fine with the damage bonus, but cutting most attacks' PP costs by more than a third, and in one case by nearly three quarters, is daft as shit.

[Maenara]

They need to accomplish intra-class balance as well. When I see anybody using Gizan seriously while they have the option to use Gifoie or Ilmegid or anything else, really, then we'll talk.

[Mysterious-G]

Seriously. If each class having one OP skill/PA is considered balance, then it's honestly worth jackshit. I'll give them credit for making Ranger more playable in a general sense, but the current Il Megid situation is just a travesty all around.

[Radical Dreamer]

Traps, Stun Grenades, and pretty much the entire right side of the Ranger skill tree are still useless, so I'd hardly say that Ranger is "balanced." If they give us a reason to use anything besides Weak Bullet, THEN we'll be getting somewhere.

[KatsuraJun]

Traps, Stun Grenades, and pretty much the entire right side of the Ranger skill tree are still useless, so I'd hardly say that Ranger is "balanced." If they give us a reason to use anything besides Weak Bullet, THEN we'll be getting somewhere.

Almost every class has that problem.

Hunters don't go down the tank path (which is about 2/3rds of their tree)
Fighters don't use the deadline/halfline/crazy slayer stuff.
Rangers have the useless traps and launcher skills
Unless you're using a crafted weapon, the entire showtime tree for Gunner is crap.
Unless you're using a Motav's Prophecy, Photon Flare/Ignition tree is crap.

Only Braver and, ironically, Techer don't have this problem of useless crap skill tree lines.

[Silver Crow]

Almost every class has that problemkHunters don't go down the tank path (which is about 2/3rds of their tree)
Fighters don't use the deadline/halfline/crazy slayer stuff.
Rangers have the useless traps and launcher skills
Unless you're using a crafted weapon, the entire showtime tree for Gunner is crap.
Unless you're using a Motav's Prophecy, Photon Flare/Ignition tree is crap.

Only Braver and, ironically, Techer don't have this problem of useless crap skill tree lines.

You're wrong about the Fighter bit, I can dig up 3 Japanese players with that build that have posted a video in the last WEEK

【PSO2】 SH スノウバンサー&スノウバンシー 【ソード】 http://nico.ms/sm23527559 #nicoid #sm23527559
【PSO2】 始末屋による、SH ノーヴ･リンガダール 【ツインダガー】 http://nico.ms/sm23536180 #nicoid #sm23536180
【PSO2】 始末屋による、SH クォーツ･ドラゴン 【ツインダガー】 http://nico.ms/sm23541873 #nicoid #sm23541873

[Zyrusticae]

They need to accomplish intra-class balance as well. When I see anybody using Gizan seriously while they have the option to use Gifoie or Ilmegid or anything else, really, then we'll talk.
THIS.

I don't freakin' care if the classes are "balanced" if they are "balanced" purely on the strength of one or two PAs (versus the ENTIRE library of PAs being completely useless). It's ridiculous.

It's just gross how bad it's gotten that we're actually praising them for making things slightly less terrible. Unbelievable, man. How about we actually FIX this shit instead of constantly putting bandaids over gaping holes, eh?

[holmwood]

THIS.

I don't freakin' care if the classes are "balanced" if they are "balanced" purely on the strength of one or two PAs (versus the ENTIRE library of PAs being completely useless). It's ridiculous.

It's just gross how bad it's gotten that we're actually praising them for making things slightly less terrible. Unbelievable, man. How about we actually FIX this shit instead of constantly putting bandaids over gaping holes, eh?

Not working with bandaids? Need more bandaids then.


I'm hoping the 1 or 2 OP PAs and Techs are just there to test the waters. Once interclass balancing is accomplished, they'll then make changes to the rest of the PAs to match the OP PAs. Seems fine to me. I mean, that way they're doing this in manageable portions.

[KatsuraJun]

You're wrong about the Fighter bit, I can dig up 3 Japanese players with that build that have posted a video in the last WEEK

【PSO2】 SH スノウバンサー&スノウバンシー 【ソード】 http://nico.ms/sm23527559 #nicoid #sm23527559
【PSO2】 始末屋による、SH ノーヴ･リンガダール 【ツインダガー】 http://nico.ms/sm23536180 #nicoid #sm23536180
【PSO2】 始末屋による、SH クォーツ･ドラゴン 【ツインダガー】 http://nico.ms/sm23541873 #nicoid #sm23541873

Yes, and we have an entire topic dedicated to tank hunter builds in our guides section.

Just because some people use it doesn't mean it's not outclassed, situational, or impractical.

[Macman]

Only Braver and, ironically, Techer don't have this problem of useless crap skill tree lines.
Excuse me? Techer's tree is a goddamn mess.

[DoubleZero]

I'm guessing a huge Skill Tree revision would be in order here. Tear everything down and re-work it from the ground up, because each tree seems to lack a sense of specialization that seven classes could really provide. If I ran things:

Mob HP scales with party-size (or defense if it already does), to make mobs last a lot longer in 12-person MPAs. Defense is simply damage reduction, rather than typed by source. Enemies (including Darkers!) have varied elemental resistances, to promote a more balanced spread of elements among weapons and techniques. Mobs will make more use of Jellen/Zalure and other status effects. Enemies would have to become a serious threat in order to make these skill tree revisions work.

All melee classes use all melee weapons, Ranged classes use all guns/bows, Forces use all Tech weapons. Braver trades Guard for all-class weapon capability and mitigates damage via evasion only. Be brave!

All seven classes are available to choose from at character creation.
All skill trees will offer either static numbers OR percentage buffs. Not both.
Skills like Stances would be active until the player deactivates them or the player dies.
All classes can evade, but Braver cannot Just/Guard.
No gear abilities required, and no slowdown when weapons are drawn.
Charging times for all attacks are reduced or omitted, supplanted with larger PP costs to prevent spamming, while also making the normal attacks relevant for damage when PP is insufficient.
PP is not restored via normal attacking, but at a modest regeneration pace to prevent PA spam. Forces, whose damage is PP-dependent will have skills to augment this.
I'm going to say no Sub-classing for now, as it circumvents Braver's 'no guard' penalty.

Hunter would be a dedicated Tank class, focusing more on drawing attention and having the skills to survive whatever the enemy throws at them. The tree uses defensive skills like Massive Hunter, Pretty Good and Guard Stance, and is the only class to reflect damage back via Just Guard. This class, because it's under fire a lot, would be the only class to have Auto-mate abilities. War Cry still clicks as an instant enemy draw, versus it being active like stances.

Fighter is the speedy Melee DPS type, focusing on rapid-fire attacks and damage buffs, and is one of the few classes that can Step Attack. This tree uses Fury/Average Stance primarily, and gets to supplement its DPS further using Weak Stance and Zero Range Advance. Combat in this game is far too fluid to worry about Wise/Brave stances, as changing between them is counter-intuitive for the player. Has access to Katana Combat's speedy-ass dashing between attacks (for all weapons, not just Katana), but has no 'finish' skill -- damage is supplemented by its DPS-heavy stance skills and attack buffs.

Ranger is a ranged supporter, using the various bullets/arrows to aid in lowering incoming damage, blowing open weak points with the assault rifle/TMGs and laying down status effects en masse with the Grenade Launcher in lieu of using traps. 'Stances' would involve increased damage to breakable parts, sacrificing damage for higher proc chances, minimizing damage variance while shooting without moving, and doing extra damage to enemies who are affected by SE.

Gunner is mid-ranged DPS class, making use of Weak Hit advance, and is the only class that gets the Stylish Roll. Similar to Fighter, the class is more offense-oriented, making use of weak spot targeting while remaining active and in motion. Skills would involve stances that increased damage while moving at a cost for greater damage variance, a damage buff while airborne, as well as making use of Chain Trigger and Chain Finish.

Force is the combat-oriented tech user. Not bound by elemental trees, skills in the Force tree revolve around PP management. Skills will either lower the PP cost of attack techs, or regenerate PP faster (not both), and Forces that Just/Guard recover PP. Forces will be able to summon Telepipes and revive fallen players, though these abilities are costly and not affected by stances/skills. Stances involve sacrificing SE procs for additional damage, doing more damage for hitting the element weakness and reducing the area-of-effect of some techniques for more raw damage.

Techer is the supporting role for Techniques, specializing in status effects and buffing allies. Skills in the Techer tree revolve around PP as well, but focus more on increasing the potency of Shifta/Deband, Resta and Anti. Like Forces, Techers can recover PP via Just/Guarding, and have the same/similar PP recovery/reduced consumption one (whichever FO uses, TE would use the other). Stances would be similar to Force's, doing additional damage to status-effected enemies, doing additional damage to element-resistant enemies and sacrificing damage to do wider-ranged techs.

Braver can use any weapon and would combine elements of the 'DPS' Fighter, Gunner and Force trees, while relying solely on evasion and personal armor to stay alive. While I personally dislike the 'Murders everything as long as it doesn't get hit' archetype, I am including it for completion's sake, and that Braver still needs to be accounted for somewhere.

I hope that was fairly comprehensive, and I'm sure there's holes for exploitation in it somewhere. I just think specialization among seven styles of play would be a good idea, as it clearly defines what each class is supposed to do, rather than have a mishmash of skills (or stick with crappy elemental trees) that obviously leave entire halves of trees unused and wasted.

[KatsuraJun]

Excuse me? Techer's tree is a goddamn mess.

It's not that it's not a goddamn mess, it's that almost all the skills are beneficial to get in some way.

Which is part of why it's a goddamn mess, you can never get everything you want or need.

For example: Hunter can pretty much safely ignore 2/3rds of his tree. However, that's because 2/3rds of his tree is useless.

On the other hand, if you want to get, say, PP convert on Techer, you're going to have to give up *something* you would probably want if you could get it but you can't because sega says fuck you techer. That's why I said it was ironic that Techer would be the one to lack the "useless ass skill line" problem that plagues most of the classes.

[Silver Crow]

Yes, and we have an entire topic dedicated to tank hunter builds in our guides section.

Just because some people use it doesn't mean it's not outclassed, situational, or impractical.

every boss does damage, it's not hard to be a bit reckless to get an extra 200 s atk. it's a high risk high reward build, Japanese people love taking risks. there is nothing situational or impractical about it, just because it's something not within your comfort zone then doesn't mean it's bad. some people love to get pp over hp and sit at ridiculously low hp, and some people like to play it safe. I enjoy a playstyle that makes this game hard, it's already a boring enough grind.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

...there was a nerf?

oh i misread

[Silver Crow]

...there was a nerf?

no, the plan is to nerf in a future update

[Cyron Tanryoku]

anywho, i dont want an sroll nerf

im barely keeping up as it is

[Kietsu]

Excuse me? Techer's tree is a goddamn mess.

It's like the only tree where each branch has -something- in it. As good as other classes? No, probably not, but it's still leagues ahead of the right half of Ranger.

[LordKaiser]

They just need to keep adding bosses like Luther and the game will balance itself with the time. Also they should buff the bosses in Multi-player areas to have 5 times more HP or something and leave single area bosses with normal HP.

[KatsuraJun]

every boss does damage, it's not hard to be a bit reckless to get an extra 200 s atk. it's a high risk high reward build, Japanese people love taking risks. there is nothing situational or impractical about it, just because it's something not within your comfort zone then doesn't mean it's bad. some people love to get pp over hp and sit at ridiculously low hp, and some people like to play it safe. I enjoy a playstyle that makes this game hard, it's already a boring enough grind.

It's impractical because waiting for the enemy to hit you to low health or proc a status effect is kind of pointless when you could, you know, just kill them because they're wet paper towels compared to the damage people can put out. Not to mention this whole build is more of a detriment than a boon in party situations where people will be throwing restas around or will just flat out kill everything while you're waiting for them to hit you. (Though to be fair, you don't have to give up much to get maxed deadline/halfline slayer if that's all you want, but that's more of a case of Fighter's skill tree being full of terrible skills rather than deadline/halfline being good skills.)

The boost is a measly 200 s-atk that doesn't scale with your weapons, amounting to about what, a 6% multiplier anyway for 20 points.

I'm not denying it can be fun. Fi/Te can be fun, zondeeling things and BHSing them. That doesn't mean it's good.

EDIT: Also I'd suggest you not make aggressive implications about my playstyle when you have no idea how I play. It doesn't make you look any more valid.

[Zyrusticae]

Not working with bandaids? Need more bandaids then.


I'm hoping the 1 or 2 OP PAs and Techs are just there to test the waters. Once interclass balancing is accomplished, they'll then make changes to the rest of the PAs to match the OP PAs. Seems fine to me. I mean, that way they're doing this in manageable portions.
That would be nice.

I'm still miffed about how they limit a bunch of balance changes to level 16 discs. Like wtf is that shit, really? You KNOW these PAs are underpowered pretty much for the entire game, why in the world would you not apply the changes retroactively? Ridiculous.

I can only hope that they fix that shit in the future. Along with some full skill tree reworks that focus on actually usable skills instead of more situational crap...


They just need to keep adding bosses like Luther and the game will balance itself with the time. Also they should buff the bosses in Multi-player areas to have 5 times more HP or something and leave single area bosses with normal HP.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA.. .!

Come on. Really? Come on. Come the fuck on! Do you think for even five seconds before you post shit like this?! I mean... ugh. Wow. Yeah. No thanks.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

..Luther's unbalanced?

[Yden]

It's not that it's not a goddamn mess, it's that almost all the skills are beneficial to get in some way.

Which is part of why it's a goddamn mess, you can never get everything you want or need.

For example: Hunter can pretty much safely ignore 2/3rds of his tree. However, that's because 2/3rds of his tree is useless.

On the other hand, if you want to get, say, PP convert on Techer, you're going to have to give up *something* you would probably want if you could get it but you can't because sega says fuck you techer. That's why I said it was ironic that Techer would be the one to lack the "useless ass skill line" problem that plagues most of the classes.

Truthfully that's how I feel skill trees should be. In order to get something, something else should have to be given up. I feel it defeats the point of having a skill tree if there's a "correct" way to build a character instead of having to choose in which aspect you want to invest in at the cost of not being able to invest in the other part. Currently only techer gets this right.

[KatsuraJun]

Truthfully that's how I feel skill trees should be. In order to get something, something else should have to be given up. I feel it defeats the point of having a skill tree if there's a "correct" way to build a character instead of having to choose in which aspect you want to invest in at the cost of not being able to invest in the other part. Currently only techer gets this right.

I agree, but Techer doesn't do it in the right way.

The bonuses are scattered all over the goddamn place with no rhyme or reason and arbitrarily tied to different elements which kind of ties your hands in all the wrong ways. The only one that remotely makes sense is the healing bonuses tied to the light techniques, but why the hell is Element Weak Hit and Territory PP Save also tied to it?

Why are wands tied to wind skills?

Why is PP Convert tied to Dark? Why is it in a totally different tree than PP restraint? (which forces you to go Light/Dark or half ass two of them if you want a build that can sustain techs forever in exchange for, say, wand whacking capabilities.)

Then there's skills that are super deep into a tree like Element Weak Hit but force you to invest fully into it or else it sucks ass.

That's how I see it at least.

[Agastya]

..Luther's unbalanced?this is a community full of people that think he's a waste of time because he takes >1min to kill and you don't neuter his attack range by breaking parts

this is a community full of people that think he needs to be removed

this is a community full of people that complained bosses die too fast and they need to be more aggressive, yet when doritos pope and falz luther showed up they began crying that they actually do damage and have hp

this is a community that doesn't know what it wants

luther is perfectly fine and if anybody thinks he isn't then maybe you should stop playing full defense te/hu shooting ilgrants at his core with your crafted 1* wand and contribute something to your party for a change

[KatsuraJun]

this is a community full of people that think he's a waste of time because he takes >1min to kill and you don't neuter his attack range by breaking parts

this is a community full of people that think he needs to be removed

this is a community full of people that complained bosses die too fast and they need to be more aggressive, yet when doritos pope and falz luther showed up they began crying that they actually do damage and have hp

this is a community that doesn't know what it wants

luther is perfectly fine and if anybody thinks he isn't then maybe you should stop playing full defense te/hu shooting ilgrants at his core with your crafted 1* wand and contribute something to your party for a change

I was fine with him until the whole "break his clock core and zerg him in under 5 minutes" thing happened.

[Silver Crow]

It's impractical because waiting for the enemy to hit you to low health or proc a status effect is kind of pointless when you could, you know, just kill them because they're wet paper towels compared to the damage people can put out. Not to mention this whole build is more of a detriment than a boon in party situations where people will be throwing restas around or will just flat out kill everything while you're waiting for them to hit you. (Though to be fair, you don't have to give up much to get maxed deadline/halfline slayer if that's all you want, but that's more of a case of Fighter's skill tree being full of terrible skills rather than deadline/halfline being good skills.)

The boost is a measly 200 s-atk that doesn't scale with your weapons, amounting to about what, a 6% multiplier anyway for 20 points.

I'm not denying it can be fun. Fi/Te can be fun, zondeeling things and BHSing them. That doesn't mean it's good.

EDIT: Also I'd suggest you not make aggressive implications about my playstyle when you have no idea how I play. It doesn't make you look any more valid.

lol you actually think with that build you wait around until you're low health? No, you attack the monster, he will damage you if youre reckless, instead of dodging you go in for a PA and when your HP is low enough you start to dodge. you clearly haven't played games like Monster Hunter, where the best damage came from being reckless with something called Potential.

You're here opposing many peoples play style, basically calling it bad, justifying it with your way of thinking. seriously, who is the aggressive one here o.o I'm trying to explain to you that no, it's not bad, and people do use Slayer stuff, I've even proved it with a quick search I found three videos released only just this week. They are much more fun than the boring 1100hp boss kills, and these guys did it with style, and in a way they enjoy who are you to judge that as bad, c'mon now. I'm so done with your opinion >.<

p.s. you're the only person here with a strong opinion about everything, stop dictating to us what you think if we don't agree with it

[Kondibon]

this is a community full of people that think he's a waste of time because he takes >1min to kill and you don't neuter his attack range by breaking parts

this is a community full of people that think he needs to be removed

this is a community full of people that complained bosses die too fast and they need to be more aggressive, yet when doritos pope and falz luther showed up they began crying that they actually do damage and have hp

this is a community that doesn't know what it wants

luther is perfectly fine and if anybody thinks he isn't then maybe you should stop playing full defense te/hu shooting ilgrants at his core with your crafted 1* wand and contribute something to your party for a changeIt's a common problem that one might see conflicting oppinions coming from multiple sources in the same community and assume the entire community is full of flakey, fickle people who can't make up their minds.

[BIG OLAF]

It's a common problem that one might see conflicting oppinions coming from multiple sources in the same community and assume the entire community is full of flakey, fickle people who can't make up their minds.

Yeah, really. Heaven forbid a group of people have differing opinions about something.

Instead of looking at "a community", why don't you use your brain and figure out that this "community" is made up of different people who feel different ways about different things, LKA? Might do you some good.

[Macman]

Luther's fine just on the basis that I enjoy hearing all the bads complain about him.

[EvilMag]

I don't mind the boss fight. What makes Loser not worth it is that his drops suck.

[Agastya]

Yeah, really. Heaven forbid a group of people have differing opinions about something.

Instead of looking at "a community", why don't you use your brain and figure out that this "community" is made up of different people who feel different ways about different things, LKA? Might do you some good.
i'm too grumpy for this community thing

mumble grumble


i'll go back to not reading the board here for a while though, so at least you'll have the peace of me not wanting to make an uncalled for ranting post for a while

[Rakurai]

I hope that if they release a more difficult version of Loser, they'll make him immune to Mirage.

The fight was better when people didn't just zerg the clock core without trying to break anything else.

[KatsuraJun]

lol you actually think with that build you wait around until you're low health? No, you attack the monster, he will damage you if youre reckless, instead of dodging you go in for a PA and when your HP is low enough you start to dodge. you clearly haven't played games like Monster Hunter, where the best damage came from being reckless with something called Potential.


That's assuming the boss does the perfect amount of damage to you. Let's say he knocks you down to only 2/3rd's hp with one attack. That only procs halfline instead of deadline. Now what do you do? Getting hit again means death. So you have to stand back up, find a safe place to mate to 3/4th's of your health, then get hit again so you have the right amount of health, stand back up again, and fight.

Depending on the boss, class, and gear, some people can drop the boss in the amount of time you spent trying to activate your slayer skills for that underwhelming 200 attack bonus.

Now of course, you could just get low before the boss like all three of the videos you posted (which makes all those videos irrelevant to your argument I might add considering you were talking about playing recklessly AT the boss), which means, yes, standing around and letting people hit you instead of just going to the boss. Yes, I call those options impractical.


You're here opposing many peoples play style, basically calling it bad, justifying it with your way of thinking. seriously, who is the aggressive one here o.o

Yes, because saying this build was "out of my comfort zone" was totally not a snide remark implying that I need to git gud to play the op slayer fighter build.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but not everything in this game is perfectly balanced and equally good. Some people enjoy things that are impractical. Some people don't. Whether or not they enjoy it doesn't make it better.


I'm trying to explain to you that no, it's not bad, and people do use Slayer stuff, I've even proved it with a quick search I found three videos released only just this week.

Yes, and people also use tank hunter builds as I said, which are sadly not very useful at the moment relative to full dps classes.

People using it doesn't magically make it equally good to other classes.


They are much more fun than the boring 1100hp boss kills, and these guys did it with style, and in a way they enjoy who are you to judge that as bad, c'mon now. I'm so done with your opinion >.<

Being fun or not has nothing to do with whether or not it's as good as other builds in terms of effectiveness. I never said it wasn't fun. I said it is fun, but that doesn't make it good. I hate to break it to you, but liking something doesn't make it good.

I think it's cute that you try to paint me as the bad guy bashing on people's builds here when I was merely commenting on how viable some skill tree lines were relative to the currently most effective ones, when you barged in, told me I was flat out wrong by posting a few videos as "proof" and suggesting that it was out of my "comfort zone," and are now using emoticons to try to make yourself seem innocent like it was merely a suggestion. Maybe if you were "done with my opinion" from the start and let it be instead of accusing me of shit, this conversation wouldn't have had to happen.

But do continue.


Oh and by the way, I do play MH, so pls assume more.

[Kondibon]

The thing that bugs me about Luther is that he's part of time gated random content instead of dedicated content, meaning, unless you have a group of good players that you know, who always play together, organizing a good run is going to be impossible. I've said this before and I'll say it again. There needs to be a way to filter the more "difficult" content from the normal content. The fact that they balanced XQs and AQs that way but not falz makes no sense to me. :/

Also from what I'm reading you can face roll him just as easy as anything else in the game, but it's not like I didn't see that coming from before he came out.

[Remz69]

I don't mind the boss fight. What makes Loser not worth it is that his drops suck.

and the xp, don't forget the xp, also sucks especially in PuGs

[Cyron Tanryoku]

i want my exp badly

[BIG OLAF]

I hope that if they release a more difficult version of Loser, they'll make him immune to Mirage.

The fight was better when people didn't just zerg the clock core without trying to break anything else.

Yeah, it's pretty agitating when you're trying to break his arms so he sits still for 15-20 seconds, or break his crystals to decrease his damage, and some shitlord just keeps moving the WB back to the core almost immediately because omg godda get my 3 runz d00d

[Macman]

I don't mind the boss fight. What makes Loser not worth it is that his drops suck.
I want muh black heart launcher and ammy rod v2.0

[Sanguine2009]

ya red scorpio is certainly something to puru about

[MetalDude]

Are we really debating the merits of Halfline/Deadline Slayer? The nature of the game does not allow either of these two to work very well (everything overall deals too much damage) and both of these skills provide pitiful damage bonuses when they're actually in effect. PP Slayer is fine and I generally pick it up because it's fairly reliable (and also goes nicely with Blackheart weapons) and FI has nothing better to do with its points. "Zerk" style can be fun but the skills nor the way the game is make it good in any way. It's not like PSO1 where the reward is extremely high for zerking whether it be 'zerk weapons or Dark Flow's crazy special.

[KatsuraJun]

Are we really debating the merits of Halfline/Deadline Slayer? The nature of the game does not allow either of these two to work very well (everything overall deals too much damage) and both of these skills provide pitiful damage bonuses when they're actually in effect. PP Slayer is fine and I generally pick it up because it's fairly reliable (and also goes nicely with Blackheart weapons) and FI has nothing better to do with its points. "Zerk" style can be fun but the skills nor the way the game is make it good in any way. It's not like PSO1 where the reward is extremely high for zerking whether it be 'zerk weapons or Dark Flow's crazy special.

no dude

don't bash on other people's builds

it might hurt their feelings

look i got these totally irrelevant nico videos to prove it

japanese players did it so it's obviously the best build

[Alukard]

Screw pp slayer, use katana gear and throw those 4-5 hatou rindous at the core.

On a side note, sega should implement certain PAs to only work once you are low HP. That would make it interesting. But please also add something that allows you to drain HP. Getting slapped is such a poor solution.

[KatsuraJun]

Screw pp slayer, use katana gear and throw those 4-5 hatou rindous at the core.

On a side note, sega should implement certain PAs to only work once you are low HP. That would make it interesting. But please also add something that allows you to drain HP. Getting slapped is such a poor solution.

A zerk style skill that could work would be hp drain on attack stance.

Buff up deadline/halfline so their bonuses are actually worth the 20 points, activate stance, drain yourself to 1hp and go ultra glass cannon.

I would totally play that and not just because stance switching makes me want to strangle sega.

[Alukard]

A zerk style skill that could work would be hp drain on attack stance.

Buff up deadline/halfline so their bonuses are actually worth the 20 points, activate stance, drain yourself to 1hp and go ultra glass cannon.

I would totally play that and not just because stance switching makes me want to strangle sega.

Exactly what I had in mind. They should call that skill "back to the roots" because that's basically the berserk special from pso. People would argue that there is nothing that would justify all that power outside dorito and loser. So unless they add similar content, there is no reason to have that yet.

If you'd ask me, as long as it makes my runs faster, bring it on.

[Zyrusticae]

..Luther's unbalanced?
In case that was a response to my post, I was laughing at the (absurd) assertion that the game would "balance itself over time", as though the PAs and skills that have never seen use EVER would suddenly find themselves being used in the future just because the bosses are different.

[gigawuts]

Personally, I find intra-class balance far less important than inter-class balance.

Nobody's gonna care that Ilmegid and Gizan are totally balanced if they nerf Ilmegid and boost Gizan a bit when RA, BR, and GU are what they currently are.

I'm not saying nerfs shouldn't happen, I'm saying they A. aren't a priority for me, B. aren't likely to happen in a balanced way.

Sega has delayed response times. Heavily delayed response times. How many months did it take for them to say they were considering nerfing sroll and shunka? How long until they even acknowledged their state? How many new powerful additions did they give those classes while they had sroll and shunka?

If they nerf sroll and shunka, ranger and force will need to be brought down. How many more months will that take? Do you guys really want to wait like we waited for the Fury Stance nerf after it took over a year to boost it in the first place? Oh wait, that still hasn't happened.

All that shit, or, since it's been a few months already (or longer, in some cases), we just keep saying the remaining classes needs boosts. They seem completely incapable of altering old content. They finally got around to fixing problems inherent to PAs like Diffuse Shell's annoying load animation instead of giving it yet another 200% damage.

Get them to fix more inherent problems, like things that have been in the game since launch, and work from there.

As far as intra-class balance: Nobody's going to use all 10+ PAs for all 7+ melee weapons. Ever. Stop it. We have 6 weapon palettes with 3 PAs each that you have to access via a combo. People will always choose the most versatile or heaviest hitting PAs. Full stop. No matter what. There could be perfect balance, and people would still go with what is perceived as the most versatile for the least effort and then what is the most damaging for weak points. That is never going to change.

[Arksenth]

what

I cant hear you over the sound of my weak-ass wand strikes

techer supremacy

[Gardios]

It's okay, they look pretty. That has to account for something, right?

[gigawuts]

I think what irritates me the most about techer is the neutral wand explosion is my favorite, and Sega refuses to add neutral element grinding so it's always going to be the worst (or even impossible to get on most weapon types).

[omgwtflolbbl]

you clearly haven't played games like Monster Hunter, where the best damage came from being reckless with something called Potential.

People who do this in MH don't do this by being reckless at the boss. They purposefully nuke themselves with barrel bombs and self-status inducing foods from the start in a pre-planned manner. Most good speed kill videos show people loading in and literally blowing themselves up on the way to the boss spawn. It's the most effective way to use those builds - nuke yourself in a controlled manner.

Nobody takes those potentials and then waits to get hit by a Rathalos while attacking or whatever.

In this game, the time it takes to set this up is not worth it since the damage increase from these types of potentials are not all that great in comparison to the buffs that you'd get in MH, and you have a lot less control over getting yourself to that danger state to begin with. No controlled way to knock your HP down via small bombs or poison berries. In addition, those power buffs are a lot more relevant in MH than here because those buffs let you hit flinch thresholds that don't exist here except for a few rare situations, which makes it a whole lot more valuable in MH.

Plainly put, this isn't Monster Hunter, and the balance is different. It may be more stylish, sure, but the effectiveness of the playstyle here is far, far worse because the reward (damage increase) is far smaller, has much less of an impact, and is a lot harder to control. On top of that, a lot of stuff in this game is weak enough/overpowered enough that others in your party (if you aren't running solo) are probably just going to nuke the hell out of whatever it is you're fighting, anyway.

[Silver Crow]

That's assuming the boss does the perfect amount of damage to you. Let's say he knocks you down to only 2/3rd's hp with one attack. That only procs halfline instead of deadline. Now what do you do? Getting hit again means death. So you have to stand back up, find a safe place to mate to 3/4th's of your health, then get hit again so you have the right amount of health, stand back up again, and fight.

Depending on the boss, class, and gear, some people can drop the boss in the amount of time you spent trying to activate your slayer skills for that underwhelming 200 attack bonus.

Now of course, you could just get low before the boss like all three of the videos you posted (which makes all those videos irrelevant to your argument I might add considering you were talking about playing recklessly AT the boss), which means, yes, standing around and letting people hit you instead of just going to the boss. Yes, I call those options impractical.



Yes, because saying this build was "out of my comfort zone" was totally not a snide remark implying that I need to git gud to play the op slayer fighter build.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but not everything in this game is perfectly balanced and equally good. Some people enjoy things that are impractical. Some people don't. Whether or not they enjoy it doesn't make it better.



Yes, and people also use tank hunter builds as I said, which are sadly not very useful at the moment relative to full dps classes.

People using it doesn't magically make it equally good to other classes.



Being fun or not has nothing to do with whether or not it's as good as other builds in terms of effectiveness. I never said it wasn't fun. I said it is fun, but that doesn't make it good. I hate to break it to you, but liking something doesn't make it good.

I think it's cute that you try to paint me as the bad guy bashing on people's builds here when I was merely commenting on how viable some skill tree lines were relative to the currently most effective ones, when you barged in, told me I was flat out wrong by posting a few videos as "proof" and suggesting that it was out of my "comfort zone," and are now using emoticons to try to make yourself seem innocent like it was merely a suggestion. Maybe if you were "done with my opinion" from the start and let it be instead of accusing me of shit, this conversation wouldn't have had to happen.

But do continue.


Oh and by the way, I do play MH, so pls assume more.


no dude

don't bash on other people's builds

it might hurt their feelings

look i got these totally irrelevant nico videos to prove it

japanese players did it so it's obviously the best build

I'll give you A+ for effort, is kohai-kun done trying to get my attention? ^.^ Senpai has more important things to do D: *pats head*

but seriously, I don't hate you, if I upset you I'm sorry. MH is a good game, the thing I was talking about was Black Leather Pants (from mh) that's what I'm going for with my Fighter. You called it fun and that's precisely what I'm trying to say, I feel like we were talking two different things. It's fun, let's leave it at that.I'm happy with that conclusion.

[KatsuraJun]

I'll give you A+ for effort, is kohai-kun done trying to get my attention? Senpai has to do more important D: *pats head*

but seriously, I don't hate you, if I upset you I'm sorry. MH is a good game, the thing I was talking about was Black Leather Pants (from mh) that's what I'm going for with my Fighter. You called it fun and that's precisely what I'm trying to say, I feel like we were talking two different things. It's fun, let's leave it at that.I'm happy with that conclusion.

Yeah, because you totally were talking about just finding it "fun" in your very first post that caused this in the first place:


there is nothing situational or impractical about it, just because it's something not within your comfort zone then doesn't mean it's bad.

and I totally didn't say it was fun 3 pages ago.


I'm not denying it can be fun. Fi/Te can be fun, zondeeling things and BHSing them. That doesn't mean it's good.

no, we were not talking about two different things. We were talking about the same thing, and you just happened to be full of shit and are now trying to backpedal out of the debate by covering it up with condescending weeaboo crap and claiming you were never arguing in the first place.

christ, if you're going to say stupid bullshit at least have even a shred of pride and stand by that stupid bullshit. it's goddamn disgraceful.

but, as long as you're happy I suppose.

[Arksenth]

Sigh!

Are the poor people cat-fighting again?

Lord Prettiest Magical Idol of PSO-World High declares you BOTH the losers.

Now let's go back to talking about how much TE sucks.

When will it be TE's turn to be OP already?

[Zyrusticae]

As far as intra-class balance: Nobody's going to use all 10+ PAs for all 7+ melee weapons. Ever. Stop it. We have 6 weapon palettes with 3 PAs each that you have to access via a combo. People will always choose the most versatile or heaviest hitting PAs. Full stop. No matter what. There could be perfect balance, and people would still go with what is perceived as the most versatile for the least effort and then what is the most damaging for weak points. That is never going to change.
And as I keep saying over and over again, I don't give a shit. None of this makes it any less worthwhile a goal to shoot for. As long as I CAN use all those PAs without feeling like I'm purposefully gimping myself I couldn't give two shits what everyone else is using.

[btw-Niji]

When will it be TE's turn to be OP already?
In a month or two, maybe.

[Silver Crow]

Yeah, because you totally were talking about just finding it "fun" in your very first post that caused this in the first place:



and I totally didn't say it was fun 3 pages ago.



no, we were not talking about two different things. We were talking about the same thing, and you just happened to be full of shit and are now trying to backpedal out of the debate by covering it up with condescending weeaboo crap and claiming you were never arguing in the first place.

christ, if you're going to say stupid bullshit at least have even a shred of pride and stand by that stupid bullshit. it's goddamn disgraceful.

but, as long as you're happy I suppose.

wow, please vent your frustrations at me via PM. I haven't called you a single thing yet you resort to calling me disgraceful, bullshitter, weaboo, unprideful, stupid.

I'm sorry okay, I get it, your opinion is absolute. now leave me alone or stop trying to be offensive to me for everyone to read, PM me or something Jesus Christ

[KatsuraJun]

wow, please vent your frustrations at me via PM. I haven't called you a single thing yet you resort to calling me disgraceful, bullshitter, weaboo, unprideful, stupid.

I'm sorry okay, I get it, your opinion is absolute. now leave me alone or stop trying to be offensive to me for everyone to read, PM me or something Jesus Christ

there's a difference between being mad and calling you out on backpedaling

learn it.

if you want me to "leave you alone" you can just, stop replying? (yet you ask me to harass you in PMs?)

[gigawuts]

And as I keep saying over and over again, I don't give a shit. None of this makes it any less worthwhile a goal to shoot for. As long as I CAN use all those PAs without feeling like I'm purposefully gimping myself I couldn't give two shits what everyone else is using.

Sega's only going to put so many man hours into this game and if you want PA balance you're going to have to lose a shitton of other things to get it.

have fun with no updates for 8 months so you can feel good about yourself using rising flag, I'm sure nobody else will have a problem with that

[pkemr4]

this is a community full of people that think he's a waste of time because he takes >1min to kill and you don't neuter his attack range by breaking parts

this is a community full of people that think he needs to be removed

this is a community full of people that complained bosses die too fast and they need to be more aggressive, yet when doritos pope and falz luther showed up they began crying that they actually do damage and have hp

this is a community that doesn't know what it wants

luther is perfectly fine and if anybody thinks he isn't then maybe you should stop playing full defense te/hu shooting ilgrants at his core with your crafted 1* wand and contribute something to your party for a change

this fucking post right here, this is exactly how pso-w is.

[Silver Crow]

there's a difference between being mad and calling you out on backpedaling

learn it.

if you want me to "leave you alone" you can just, stop replying? (yet you ask me to harass you in PMs?)

I gave up trying to convince you after your second reply stating intricate details about how much time you waste getting the Slayer bonus. You just don't get it, to you it's a small damage boost that's really bothersome to achieve which is why I said it's out of your comfort zone. You can't convince others with sheer force, you said the build doesn't exist, when Nico Nico is littered with Fighters showcasing it. You then say, but that doesn't make it good, that's your opinion, it's still around 100 satk higher than the normal build. Not saying this build is the most amazing thing ever, I just thought I'd show you videos of people who do use it, yet you start arguing with me over it's effectiveness. I simply don't care, Fighter isn't my main class and it's not making or breaking anything for me. Just calm down you're getting a little too excited on the internet.

[KatsuraJun]

I gave up trying to convince you after your second reply stating intricate details about how much time you waste getting the Slayer bonus. You just don't get it, to you it's a small damage boost that's really
bothersome to achieve which is why I said it's out of your comfort zone.

Then by all means, start explaining. Your videos aren't of any help since the players in it got to low health before the boss room, not by playing recklessly as you claim. I'm sorry I try to explain things rather than being vague and unhelpful.


You can't convince others with sheer force,

I'm not trying to "convince" anyone, I'm defending my opinion that the zerk skills for Fighter are pretty bad.


you said the build doesn't exist, when Nico Nico is littered with Fighters showcasing it.

Don't put words in my mouth - nowhere did I say it doesn't exist. I stated at one point that it can be added to a standard fighter build without sacrificing much because fighter lacks good skills in general. That, however, has more to do with fighter's limited options than the slayer skills being good.


You then say, but that doesn't make it good, that's your opinion, it's still around 100 satk higher than the normal build. Not saying this build is good, I just thought I'd show you videos of people who do use it,

if you're not trying to tell me the skills are good, then try not telling me I'm wrong about them not being good. I replied to someone who said the trap/launcher bullets on ranger were useless by saying a lot of skill trees have that problem. I suppose you could claim that you took what I said about people not using those skills literally, but I didn't see you leap into the defense of tank hunters when I said that hunters don't go down the tank path either. You just ran in and told me I was wrong about the fighter skills being bad.


yet you start arguing with me over it's effectiveness.

what am I supposed to argue when you explicitly tell me "I'm wrong" about the skills being generally useless.

the color of the sky?


Just calm down you're getting a little too excited on the internet.

I'm perfectly calm, the one who was throwing a fit about leaving you alone was you.

[Silver Crow]

Then by all means, start explaining. Your videos aren't of any help since the players in it got to low health before the boss room, not by playing recklessly as you claim. I'm sorry I try to explain things rather than being vague and unhelpful.



I'm not trying to "convince" anyone, I'm defending my opinion that the zerk skills for Fighter are pretty bad.



Don't put words in my mouth - nowhere did I say it doesn't exist. I stated at one point that it can be added to a standard fighter build without sacrificing much because fighter lacks good skills in general. That, however, has more to do with fighter's limited options than the slayer skills being good.



if you're not trying to tell me the skills are good, then try not telling me I'm wrong about them not being good. I replied to someone who said the trap/launcher bullets on ranger were useless by saying a lot of skill trees have that problem. I suppose you could claim that you took what I said about people not using those skills literally, but I didn't see you leap into the defense of tank hunters when I said that hunters don't go down the tank path either. You just ran in and told me I was wrong about the fighter skills being bad.



what am I supposed to argue when you explicitly tell me "I'm wrong" about the skills being generally useless.

the color of the sky?



I'm perfectly calm, the one who was throwing a fit about leaving you alone was you.

the reason I "back pedal" and ask you to leave me alone is because there is no point arguing with someone stubborn. 100+ satk extra, like I said, may not seem like much, but look at how much people pay to put 4x Power Boost on their equipment for that extra 100 satk. Is it so surprising to you that they wouldn't go as far to get another 100 satk? because people do, they are what we call elitists and they will scrape every last spec of satk they can get even if is something as bothersome as staying under 25% health. but to them it's added an element of risk for reward which just do happens to be fun to people who like to take risks. and hey, they did a pretty good job. just because you find it so hard to do the same doesn't mean you need to insult me to justify how "Okay" you are with your boring build staying safe (boring to me at least, and the same in monster Hunter). if you still don't understand after all that then don't blame me for not wanting to discuss with you. if you're angry at me PM instead, don't derail a thread about Shunka and Sroll nerf.

oh and I type everything on a mobile so I can't be arsed to get into lengthy arguments with you, this is my final reply

[LonelyGaruga]

lol you actually think with that build you wait around until you're low health? No, you attack the monster, he will damage you if youre reckless, instead of dodging you go in for a PA and when your HP is low enough you start to dodge. you clearly haven't played games like Monster Hunter, where the best damage came from being reckless with something called Potential.

Yeah no. Let someone who plays MH, and actually does know how it works, tell you how it's done. You take methods to hurt yourself, use them, and then clear the quest without getting hit once. Why is this useful? Because it's 30% more damage, not the measly amount Halfline Slayer and Deadline Slayer provide. In MH, 30% is huge. The only thing that gives a better boost is Felyne Heroics, which is 50%, but requires less than 10 HP. Adrenaline+2 (the proper name of the skill, Adrenaline+1 does not give an attack buff) works at 40% or below HP.

The best damage absolutely never came from recklessness using this strategy. It came from precision, manipulation of stagger mechanics, and well practiced strategies. Not once does recklessness ever come into play, in any form of MH gameplay resembling a high level of experience.

PSO2 does not allow anything resembling this playstyle to be beneficial. The only way to lower your HP manually is by unequipping weapons and units. This does not allow you to control your HP properly. At best, you can activate Halfline Slayer without getting yourself hit, and that's meager at best. The only thing a Halfline/Deadline Slayer build is worthwhile for is recording runs, where practicality is not a concern. MH's Adrenaline and Heroics runs are similar, but Adrenaline is actually practical to use and possesses potency well beyond what Halfline/Deadline Slayer could ever accomplish in their current states, comparatively speaking.

[Vampy]

Aside from the drama on this thread I agree with gigawuts. I rather have more content than make every single PA useable but make updates slower than they already are. I do agree more options in terms of PAs and techs would be nice but I rather future content that adds new content new PAs and techs that can stand next to other classes. The game has so many issues and it's nice that they are acknowledging that but they can only do so much without making the game stagnate even quicker just because they were fixing things they should have done from the start and neglect new content.

[KatsuraJun]

the reason I "back pedal" and ask you to leave me alone is because there is no point arguing with someone stubborn.

so you admit to backpedaling.


100+ satk extra, like I said, may not seem like much, but look at how much prior pay to put 4x Power Boost on their equipment for that extra 100 satk. Is it so surprising to you that the wouldn't go as far to get another 100 satk? because people do, they are what we call elitists and they will scrape every last spec of satk they can get even if is something as bothersome as staying under 25% health. but to them it's added an element of risk for reward. and hey, they did a pretty good job.

Going on about irrelevant nonsense isn't helping your point. No, they didn't do a good job. the zerk skills are terrible. 20 sp for a conditional 200 atk is awful. People put power boost on stuff because all you sacrifice is meseta, which is farmable and easily made if you can play the market for shit or are just diligent about TAs.


just because you find it so hard to do the same doesn't mean you need to insult me to justify how "Okay" you are with your boring build staying safe (boring to me at least, and the same in monster Hunter).

again, more random assumption about my playstyle.
no, it's not hard to get to low health outside the boss room.
that's not the problem. the problem is it's not efficient. you hold your party up if you're in one, if you're not in one, it would have been faster to just enter the room and kill the damn thing since the bonus is negligible to begin with. yeah it's nice for recorded boss fights like the videos you showed but that's it.

but why am I even explaining this to you, nah, I'm just a bad who can't understand and just flinging insults at someone who totally wasn't being passive-aggressive before backpedaling and pretending he was totally innocent.


if you still don't understand after all that then don't blame me for not wanting to discuss with you. if you're angry at me PM don't derail a thread about Shunka and Sroll nerf.

Except I was *replying* to someone who was talking about ranger's skill tree being totally useless on the right side and thus apparently not being in a good spot relative to br and gu.

and I was pointing out that a lot of classes have the same issue so it's not really relevant to ra's level of strength. So I was on topic when I made the claim, thanks.


oh and I type everything on a mobile so I can't be arsed to get into lengthy arguments with you, this is my final reply

if you had no intention to back up anything you said, then don't open your mouth.

[Silver Crow]

Yeah no. Let someone who plays MH, and actually does know how it works, tell you how it's done. You take methods to hurt yourself, use them, and then clear the quest without getting hit once. Why is this useful? Because it's 30% more damage, not the measly amount Halfline Slayer and Deadline Slayer provide. In MH, 30% is huge. The only thing that gives a better boost is Felyne Heroics, which is 50%, but requires less than 10 HP. Adrenaline+2 (the proper name of the skill, Adrenaline+1 does not give an attack buff) works at 40% or below HP.

The best damage absolutely never came from recklessness using this strategy. It came from precision, manipulation of stagger mechanics, and well practiced strategies. Not once does recklessness ever come into play, in any form of MH gameplay resembling a high level of experience.

PSO2 does not allow anything resembling this playstyle to be beneficial. The only way to lower your HP manually is by unequipping weapons and units. This does not allow you to control your HP properly. At best, you can activate Halfline Slayer without getting yourself hit, and that's meager at best. The only thing a Halfline/Deadline Slayer build is worthwhile for is recording runs, where practicality is not a concern. MH's Adrenaline and Heroics runs are similar, but Adrenaline is actually practical to use and possesses potency well beyond what Halfline/Deadline Slayer could ever accomplish in their current states, comparatively speaking.

fucking hell, you can't do the same on pso2, the only way is to be reckless and get damaged. I'm comparing the play style not the bloody method, they're two different games. if you guys aren't up to the task of staying alive under 25% then the build is simply not for you. yes it's higher damage than the normal one, no one can deny that. pso2 is already easy enough, adding more power and challenge to your play style is something certain people enjoy. why are people so hell bent on their opinions, I don't care, like I said fighter isn't my main nor do I care how people decide how to play it. the simple fact is it does more damage, no matter how much you try and describe how impossible it is to get to 25% and stay under it, that's up to the players ability and ultimately what separates good players from bad ones. don't take the risk if you can't handle it, keep playing safe.

retarded people in this English community I swear to god... and KatsuraJun you really need to shutup, your posts are absolutely idiotic.

[KatsuraJun]

retarded people in this English community I swear to god...

Then get out.

[LonelyGaruga]

fucking hell, you can't do the same on pso2, the only way is to be reckless and get damaged. I'm comparing the play style not the bloody method, they're two different games.

In MH, the playstyle is effective, in PSO2, it is not. That's another point. Drawing comparisons where it's effective does not make it effective in other games. Also, the back pedaling remark seems to have merit, seeing how you said that in MH, players play recklessly to get low on HP, then dropped it when you were corrected on that matter.


if you guys aren't up to the task of staying alive under 25% then the build is simply not for you. yes it's higher damage than the normal one, no one can deny that. pso2 is already easy enough, adding more power and challenge to your play style is something certain people enjoy. why are people so hell bent on their opinions, I don't care, like I said fighter isn't my main nor do I care how people decide how to play it. the simple fact is it does more damage, no matter how much you try and describe how impossible it is to get to 25% and stay under it, that's up to the players ability and ultimately what separates good players from bad ones.

Here's another thing that separates good players from bad players. Their builds. You can invest your SP differently and get better results than you would with a Halfline/Deadline Slayer build. That is the problem with it. In MH, there is literally only one other playstyle that offers better damage than Adrenaline+2, and that's just a more extreme version of it. In PSO2, it just offers worse damage than you could get otherwise.


don't take the risk if you can't handle it, keep playing safe.

I hope you enjoy taking risks with a build that offers less damage than a properly constructed build that involves no risk.


retarded people in this English community I swear to god...

Hypocrisy, how cute!

By the way, calm down. You're just making yourself look bad with all that raging, unnecessary language, and bad grammar. Arguments, whether on the internet or IRL, should remain civil, and failing that just indicates bad arguing skills.

[Vetur]

simple button press my arse, you're sacrificing a lot more than you think. sure it's doubled your damage, but if you didn't need to S roll casting something like 3x Satellite aims in the moment it would take you to S roll, that's 3x vs 2x. I'm not saying it isn't a huge modifier, but when it came out it changed everyone's play style, it was refreshing and more fun. 3x Satellite Aim still out damages S rolled version, but s rolled Messiah kills 3x Satellite Aim. Which I don't mind since Messiah is more fun anyway.

if they tone it down to say 50% it would make Sattelite aim spam come back, I aint in the mood for that shit again

I kind of agree... I really liked playing with the TMGs without having to time the rolls, but it seems like you gotta do it now in order to have good damage, and it's just too annoying for me to do that all the time. :(

I end up just switching to the rifle or launcher most of the time. Well, the good thing is since they fixed the biggest issue I had with ranger(accuracy while running), I don't have much problem with ranger anymore.

[Silver Crow]

Then get out.

I've been here longer than you, and if you didn't get hint it was aimed at you. Honestly wish Sega would just IP ban gaijins, it will filter out all the gomi and ship 2 will finally be cleansed. Then the people that connect will be those dedicated enough to buy a decent Japanese VPN and learn the god damn language since after an IP ban they wont tolerate people attempting to bypass it. That is seriously my wet dream right now after witnessing sheer American level stupidity. god damnit faith in humanity should exclude people like this.

[infiniteeverlasting]

Arguments, whether on the internet or IRL, should remain civil, and failing that just indicates bad arguing skills.

which is why american's law system is a failure, showcased right here on the forums. it's all about who argues the best, is arguing really that valuable of a skill? in the end its all about who can hide their ego the best and still convince others. smh smh.

[KatsuraJun]

Seniority is nothing on an internet messageboard, and I speak Japanese well enough to communicate with Japanese players, so that wouldn't do much, friend.

[UMVC3_Wolverine]

Hunter still suck!

Sonic arrow needs a 100% damage buff.

[Xaeris]

Mommy Sayara, please help.

[infiniteeverlasting]

Hunter still suck!

Sonic arrow needs a 100% damage buff.

LOL make it do slide end 16 damage >:D

[Silver Crow]

In MH, the playstyle is effective, in PSO2, it is not. That's another point. Drawing comparisons where it's effective does not make it effective in other games. Also, the back pedaling remark seems to have merit, seeing how you said that in MH, players play recklessly to get low on HP, then dropped it when you were corrected on that matter.



Here's another thing that separates good players from bad players. Their builds. You can invest your SP differently and get better results than you would with a Halfline/Deadline Slayer build. That is the problem with it. In MH, there is literally only one other playstyle that offers better damage than Adrenaline+2, and that's just a more extreme version of it. In PSO2, it just offers worse damage than you could get otherwise.



I hope you enjoy taking risks with a build that offers less damage than a properly constructed build that involves no risk.



Hypocrisy, how cute!

By the way, calm down. You're just making yourself look bad with all that raging, unnecessary language, and bad grammar. Arguments, whether on the internet or IRL, should remain civil, and failing that just indicates bad arguing skills.

I've taken into account the s-atk you could have invested the points into yet SLAYER still takes the cake at over 100 more s-atk, continue denying and disguising the matter with your excuses of effectiveness, how dare you define effectiveness, that's up to the players ability, were not robots, everyone plays differently and some at a higher level. a retarded player would make this build a failed investment of points, a good player would utilise them better.

there is no better build, there are builds that un deniably give you more damage, like this one, and there are builds like yours which provide less damage at the privilege of stay at higher health. stop sugar coating how bad you are mate, you're not up to the challenge and fun of it. if you like to play pso2 like that who am I to judge, just stop being Hitler with your opinions that I frankly don't give a shit about.

p.s. I've tried to remain civil, if you look back right to the start Katsura flips out and drops the name calling. I've had it with idiots, I've tried to be nice and even accepted his opinion, but no, he wants to be a big man on the internet and further harass me. which is fine, then you come along with your utter stupidity trying to explain to ME how Adr+2 works on MH? I grew up with that fucking game, the only builds I ran were Adr+2 sets. If you was a true MH player you'd appreciate Slayer more, the simple matter of the fact is you'd lose out on 100 satk to sit comfortably on your fat arse at higher health and afford more mistakes. Slayer keeps you on your toes and gives you more damage. End. Of. Players define their own effectiveness with effort practice and skill. Literally doesn't matter at the end of the day, don't go bashing other people's idea of fun. You're here to join the drama.

[KatsuraJun]

I love how the passive aggressive "outside your comfort zone" remarks turned into outright "you're a shit american player who is literally hitler." I wish I was exaggerating, honestly.

I might add that I called you full of shit on the account that you started acting extra condescending with the senpai crap and began backpedaling on your own claims. That's not even counting the comfort zone remarks.

I also would like to point out your first reply to Garuga was a condescending tirade about his lack of skill ending in "retarded people in this English community."

[Vampy]

This is getting out of hand.

Silver Crow people are dumb anywhere around the world not just in the Americas you never know they may not even be American. Don't just blindly assume anything.

I get people use these builds and love to showcase their skill with them but the truth is it's just too inefficient for anything outside of solo boss runs, and still there are better ways to increase your damage in the short and long run. You were trying to compare it to Monster Hunter and were told why the same concept does not translate well across games.

My biggest issue is that you do not main fighter just seen others play with these builds. You admit they are not the best and they have their flaws yet still try to argue, and when things do not go your way you ask to be left alone or get to the point of insults.

[Evangelion X.XX]

I'll give you A+ for effort, is kohai-kun done trying to get my attention? ^.^ Senpai has more important things to do D: *pats head*



I think it's this remark that really escalated the argument; I think there are better ways to say things that still show you respect the other party... even though you disagree with them.

[Vetur]

This is getting out of hand.

Silver Crow people are dumb anywhere around the world not just in the Americas you never know they may not even be American. Don't just blindly assume anything.

I get people use these builds and love to showcase their skill with them but the truth is it's just too inefficient for anything outside of solo boss runs, and still there are better ways to increase your damage in the short and long run. You were trying to compare it to Monster Hunter and were told why the same concept does not translate well across games.

My biggest issue is that you do not main fighter just seen others play with these builds. You admit they are not the best and they have their flaws yet still try to argue, and when things do not go your way you ask to be left alone or get to the point of insults.

Yeah, it's kind of racism(or is there a better word) to be assuming all Americans are dumb... I live in NA after all, and I don't shove things in peoples' faces or insult them.
When people start spewing insults and name-calling, that really just shows how immature and close-minded they are at handling arguments. There's difference between a mature debate where both sides must keep open to new ideas and respect differing opinions, and child-like arguments where it is "I am the one who is right, you are dumb! *tantrum*".

[Silver Crow]

I love how the passive aggressive "outside your comfort zone" remarks turned into outright "you're a shit american player who is literally hitler."

I might add that I called you full of shit on the account that you started acting extra condescending with the senpai crap and began backpedaling on your own claims. That's not even counting the comfort zone remarks.

exactly, shows I was at least attempting to be nice, I gave up on arguing with you because I felt embarrassed at how bad your point was. you was actually trying to convince me it's not effective simply due to the fact that you assume the player won't be able to get down to under 25% and stay there when I linked THREE videos of people doing EXACTLY that. I'm not even angry at you, I'm more pissed off at the fact that another guy joins in just as we were about to stop arguing, only to add fire to the flames. let's all agree to PM each other instead I'm sure if another smart ass were to come take sides this will get even more out of hand. but no matter what im staying to defend my point do I suggest you guys "be the better people" and stop before me.

edit: I meant in the three videos they managed to stay under 25% obviously getting there is a slightly different story

[KatsuraJun]

No, I said it wouldn't be practical to get under 25% hp in the boss room from full health by playing recklessly, which is what you were claiming.

The videos you showed had people who entered the boss room at 1 hp already.

Ergo, the videos had nothing to do with what you were talking about.

If acting condescendingly passive-aggressive is your definition of being nice, I seriously suggest you rethink the way you communicate with other people.

[Silver Crow]

This is getting out of hand.

Silver Crow people are dumb anywhere around the world not just in the Americas you never know they may not even be American. Don't just blindly assume anything.

I get people use these builds and love to showcase their skill with them but the truth is it's just too inefficient for anything outside of solo boss runs, and still there are better ways to increase your damage in the short and long run. You were trying to compare it to Monster Hunter and were told why the same concept does not translate well across games.

My biggest issue is that you do not main fighter just seen others play with these builds. You admit they are not the best and they have their flaws yet still try to argue, and when things do not go your way you ask to be left alone or get to the point of insults.

please read back and see who started insulting who first, it certainly wasn't me, im sick of everyone looking at me when I was trying to stop the argument, until he called me disgraceful, un prideful, stupid etc it's ridiculous since I'm the overreacting now, people only see me as the bloody aggressor

[Vampy]

We aren't taking sides we are just giving our opinions on the matter it just happens that we have different views from yours.

Edit: Sure let me read back to see where this started and see if I need to retract my comment but from the point I entered you seemed to be very insulting even if not directly.

[XPKun]

What exactly is your point now 'cause you seem to keep changing it? That a slayer FI tree is better than any other FI build?

[Xaeris]

It's unreasonable for you to expect any sympathy for your belligerence in this topic after you just got through bashing EN players for being stupid and wished Sega would ban us all.

[KatsuraJun]

please read back and see who started insulting who first, it certainly wasn't me, im sick of everyone looking at me when I was trying to stop the argument, until he called me disgraceful, un prideful, stupid etc it's ridiculous since I'm the overreacting now, people only see me as the bloody aggressor

Yes, it was.

Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend your "comfort zone" remarks weren't not-so-subtle suggestions that I am a terrible player.


I'll give you A+ for effort, is kohai-kun done trying to get my attention? ^.^ Senpai has more important things to do D: *pats head.

It's really hard to construe this line as anything but patronizing as fuck.

[Silver Crow]

No, I said it wouldn't be practical to get under 25% hp in the boss room from full health by playing recklessly, which is what you were claiming.

The videos you showed had people who entered the boss room at 1 hp already.

Ergo, the videos had nothing to do with what you were talking about.

If acting like a condescendingly passive-aggressive is your definition of being nice, I seriously suggest you rethink the way you communicate with other people.

okay, even then I offered to stop arguing, why resort to name calling immediately after. yes they entered the boss fight under 25% but that's what you do for videos, you prepare all your boosts before hand. I'm saying you could easily get to that hp, bosses do a thing called attacking, you just go for them as they go for you, preferably with PAs that dont stun. and you make adjustments as you go along with monomates. You're not wasting time, DPS as you normally would, just without the extra effort of dodging at first and channeling that into adjusting your hp instead. it's really not a difficult concept, were arguing more about the fact that you won't let me have my opinion even when I accepted the terms that it was for fun only and hid my true feelings about that matter just to not escalate things and just as we were done a third smart ass decides to join in.

[omgwtflolbbl]

I don't think anybody was talking about the risk. It's not like no damage runs are something new or anything.

It is simply far more of a hassle and far less beneficial of a playstyle to use here. That's a fact you cannot argue with. MH gave you a huge reward for it, and gave you (comparatively) easy access to activate Adrenaline from before you even start fighting the boss via self inflicted damage. If you were a "true" MH player, whatever the heck that is supposed to mean, then you'd realize the payout between the two games for the same style is like night and day.

How much is 100 nonscaling s-atk on top of your already 2k+ satk and 500+ weapon elemental attack compared to MH's adrenaline bonus?

Nobody actually relies on getting smacked around by the target to trigger these things unless it just happens to be something really convenient with just the right amount of damage, and even then that's not a preferable method.

The same zerker low hp playstyle here gives nowhere near as effective. It takes longer to trigger, is much more inconsistent due to a lot of extra uncontrollable factors (random heals, variable damage), and you're holding up your team while you try to trigger it if you do so beforehand.

Look at it this way. In Monster Hunter, it was high risk, high reward. It made sense to run it if you could handle it because it was worth it. In PSO2, it's high risk, low reward. You can't get all that much extra damage out of it compared to the much safer alternatives, and takes a lot more finagling to get it triggered in the first place.

It's not about the risk itself, and I don't think anyone has claimed it was "impossible" or even hard to stay alive at that low amount of health. It's not like no hit runs are some super rare things. It's the (lack of) reward and practicality of the playstyle in PSO2 due to not so awesome numbers that makes it unattractive to players. If you give the perfect player this 1 HP build and a slightly safer but slightly weaker build, the difference will be small compared to MH where some guy is running some wonk full evasion vs. another with adrenaline.

Personally, I'm a big fan of naked runs in MH with crap weapons. I actually like the feel of bigger enemy HP pools while still being able to wail on things nonstop. Doesn't mean that naked runs are smart or efficient just because they work or I find them enjoyable.

I mean hell, imagine you're in a party and some helpful teammate sees you're low on health and drops a Star, or you're in some MPA where heals are often being thrown out every so often because pugs and stuff. You can't even make consistent use of the build even if you tried in pug situations.

The three videos you linked mean nothing in context of a lot of what you have said. You claim that people trigger these things by getting smacked in combat instead of dodging with the boss, but you can see that they go into these fights with it already triggered. It's not a reckless style tanking hits, it's a well planned style and there's really nothing "berserker" about it. These videos are also controlled solo videos which don't have to deal with interferences like that one guy casting Resta right on top of the toppled Dorito.

And honestly, when you start calling everyone gaijins and crap and calling to IP ban people (lol ip bans) like that as if not being Japanese is some kind of negative mark on their very being... holy crap, man.

[KatsuraJun]

okay, even then I offered to stop arguing, why resort to name calling immediately after.

You offered to stop arguing after being a condescending ass the line before.

Do you really not see the problem here.

[tuxdude143]

Am I the only person who generally uses the s-roll as a replacement for the dodge roll? I just find it a lot more convinent and its saved my skin many times. I don't really care about extra damage and stuff from the s-roll, as long as sega doesn't nerf the mobility of the s-roll.

[KatsuraJun]

No... you're not, everyone uses it for that.

The default dodge roll is pretty much considered the worst evasion move in the game.

[Silver Crow]

I don't think anybody was talking about the risk. It's not like no damage runs are something new or anything.

It is simply far more of a hassle and far less beneficial of a playstyle to use here. That's a fact you cannot argue with. MH gave you a huge reward for it, and gave you (comparatively) easy access to activate Adrenaline from before you even start fighting the boss via self inflicted damage. If you were a "true" MH player, whatever the heck that is supposed to mean, then you'd realize the payout between the two games for the3 same style is like night and day.

How much is 100 nonscaling s-atk on top of your already 2k+ satk and 500+ weapon elemental attack compared to MH's adrenaline bonus?

Nobody actually relies on getting smacked around by the target to trigger these things unless it just happens to be something really convenient with just the right amount of damage, and even then that's not a preferable method.

The same zerker low hp playstyle here gives nowhere near as effective. It takes longer to trigger, is much more inconsistent due to a lot of extra uncontrollable factors (random heals, variable damage), and you're holding up your team while you try to trigger it if you do so beforehand.

Look at it this way. In Monster Hunter, it was high risk, high reward. It made sense to run it if you could handle it because it was worth it. In PSO2, it's high risk, low reward. You can't get all that much extra damage out of it compared to the much safer alternatives, and takes a lot more finagling to get it triggered in the first place.

It's not about the risk itself, and I don't think anyone has claimed it was "impossible" or even hard to stay alive at that low amount of health. It's not like no hit runs are some super rare things. It's the (lack of) reward and practicality of the playstyle in PSO2 due to not so awesome numbers that makes it unattractive to players. If you give the perfect player this 1 HP build and a slightly safer but slightly weaker build, the difference will be small compared to MH where some guy is running some wonk full evasion vs. another with adrenaline.

Personally, I'm a big fan of naked runs in MH with crap weapons. I actually like the feel of bigger enemy HP pools while still being able to wail on things nonstop. Doesn't mean that naked runs are smart or efficient just because they work or I find them enjoyable.

I mean hell, imagine you're in a party and some helpful teammate sees you're low on health and drops a Star, or you're in some MPA where heals are often being thrown out every so often because pugs and stuff. You can't even make consistent use of the build even if you tried in pug situations.

The three videos you linked mean nothing in context of a lot of what you have said. You claim that people trigger these things by getting smacked in combat instead of dodging with the boss, but you can see that they go into these fights with it already triggered. It's not a reckless style tanking hits, it's a well planned style and there's really nothing "berserker" about it. These videos are also controlled solo videos which don't have to deal with interferences like that one guy casting Resta right on top of the toppled Dorito.

And honestly, when you start calling everyone gaijins and crap and calling to IP ban people (lol ip bans) like that as if not being Japanese is some kind of negative mark on their very being... holy crap, man.

fuck sake here we go, you should have kept that to yourself because I've already answered everything you said, if you're that interested go back and read. would people stop defining what is effective and what isn't. that's down to the player, let's indeed stop comparing it to MH because the payout is different. but you atleast acknowledge that there IS a payout. for those that take the risk they get a payout like you said, it doesn't matter how small you think it is (though people pay 20m+ to quad atk boost equipment which only gives 100satk, and some pay upwards of 50m to Abi3 everything for an extra 60 satk...) the bonus is still there sitting proudly at an extra 120 satk for those brave ones willing to dare and challenge it. even if you argue and argue is effectiveness it's still fun for certain people, if they make it work who are we to judge, in fact it's rather amazing and more exciting than watching someone at full hp. but the arguement escalated into who is wrong and right and why I said I'm happy enough to call it fun, but they are relentless until they see me convinced. I will never be convinced because there is undeniable ... argh I'm sick of reiterating myself

[Vetur]

please read back and see who started insulting who first, it certainly wasn't me, im sick of everyone looking at me when I was trying to stop the argument, until he called me disgraceful, un prideful, stupid etc it's ridiculous since I'm the overreacting now, people only see me as the bloody aggressor

Doesn't matter who started it, if anyone is insulting anyone, especially those not involved, that doesn't justify it at all.
That does not mean he also isn't insulting, but he didn't take it as far as to generalize a whole nation of people as deserving something they don't, something that is disrespectful to so many people.
It is good that you wish to take it to PMs now, but please try to be more considerate of others in the future, because not everyone of one nation is the same.

PS: Actually, from what I can tell, he was not even trying to insult you to begin with and simply giving a criticism to your build without insulting it, but your response to that did have a very passive-aggressive feel to it. I think you simply took it the wrong way, but not all criticism is meant to be "mean", it's meant to give you insight on why it might be bad.

[Silver Crow]

You offered to stop arguing after being a condescending ass the line before.

Do you really not see the problem here.

wait, so you want me to eat your bullshit AND be happy about it? here, let me bend down and take my trousers off too, give me a smoke whilst were at it

[tuxdude143]

No... you're not, everyone uses it for that.

The default dodge roll is pretty much considered the worst evasion move in the game.

Ah, the dodge roll is pretty terrible.

[Silver Crow]

Doesn't matter who started it, if anyone is insulting anyone, especially those not involved, that doesn't justify it at all.
That does not mean he also isn't insulting, but he didn't take it as far as to generalize a whole nation of people as deserving something they don't, something that is disrespectful to so many people.
It is good that you wish to take it to PMs now, but please try to be more considerate of others in the future, because not everyone of one nation is the same.

You're right, I'm sorry for that >.< 3am typing on phone can't sleep because of how bothered I was, next time I'm going to avoid troublemakers before I get brought down to their level too.

[Izaro]

So is shunka going to be useless after the nerf?

[KatsuraJun]

PS: Actually, from what I can tell, he was not even trying to insult you to begin with and simply giving a criticism to your build without insulting it, but your response to that did have a very passive-aggressive feel to it. I think you simply took it the wrong way, but not all criticism is meant to be "mean", it's meant to give you insight on why it might be bad.

Why even bother explaining it to him? He's masking it now but from the beginning he was looking down on anyone who didn't agree with his master race build as a shit player.

Just look at what he's been telling people that weren't even me the past few pages for disagreeing with him.


So is shunka going to be useless after the nerf?

Nobody even knows if it's going to be nerfed. To begin with they said they would only nerf it if after a few adjustments for the other classes, braver and gunner are still too strong.

[Vampy]

@Silver Crow: You should try doing something to relax then. I wasn't picking any sides I was going to stay out of it until you started generalizing groups of people.

[Zyrusticae]

Sega's only going to put so many man hours into this game and if you want PA balance you're going to have to lose a shitton of other things to get it.

have fun with no updates for 8 months so you can feel good about yourself using rising flag, I'm sure nobody else will have a problem with that

Aside from the drama on this thread I agree with gigawuts. I rather have more content than make every single PA useable but make updates slower than they already are. I do agree more options in terms of PAs and techs would be nice but I rather future content that adds new content new PAs and techs that can stand next to other classes. The game has so many issues and it's nice that they are acknowledging that but they can only do so much without making the game stagnate even quicker just because they were fixing things they should have done from the start and neglect new content.
You guys have got to be kidding.

This is a completely false dilemma. All they need to do (at least with regards to PAs) is tweak numbers, which doesn't take anything resembling an appreciable amount of time to do. I can't even follow the logic that leads you from "fix the numbers" to "this will delay all future content!" They (now) have a dedicated balance team for a reason. If they didn't fix this shit they wouldn't be doing their fucking jobs.

Hell, they don't even need a balance team. Just ONE guy who actually plays the game and has a decent grasp of basic arithmetic can do a better job than they're doing now (and what they're doing now is obviously just slapdashing whatever the crap numbers they "feel" is appropriate and letting come what may).

[Silver Crow]

fuck okay sorry guys reading back at things I did cause this mess, sorry Katsura and everyone I involved in my immature tantrum, honestly have no idea whats got into me >.<

[Cyron Tanryoku]

I can't even follow the logic that leads you from "fix the numbers" to "this will delay all future content!"
SEGA.

[9898]

in pso2 you have guaranteed rewards if you know how to spend your rl money correctly in game (not suggesting rmt either, entirely legitimate). pso2 is not actually always worth playing, but thankfully the game lets you know when it's worth playing.

[Walkure]

What builds are we even comparing Deadline builds to? Cause the SP limitation is pretty a pretty big deal. After grabbing gears, brave stance and ups, and PP slayer, you have 5 SP left.

If you choose to put those into Critical Strike, if you switch to Wise Stance you're doing less damage than practically any build that has max Wise Stance Up. You'll also have the most marginal of damage upgrades with fulltime deadline over a build that put those points in Half/deadline slayer into Brave Stance Critical instead.

If those points go into Wise Stance Up then the deadline buff is about equal or lesser damage for Kamuis and Knuckles with a Brave Stance Critical build with Fury Critical maxed. And if that extra SP on the Brave Stance Critical build goes into Wise Stance (Up) it should be basically a wash if you switch to wise stance.

Against practically anything that Chase Advance applies to, a Chase Advance build wins outright in damage.

You have to get pretty nuanced to say that a Deadline build wins versus other builds, even if you're constantly in deadline.

[KatsuraJun]

fuck okay sorry guys reading back at things I did cause this mess, sorry Katsura and everyone I involved in my immature tantrum, honestly have no idea whats got into me >.<

Well, color me surprised. My apologies as well for being as abrasive as I was, I'm sure that didn't help at all.

[Alukard]

in pso2 you have guaranteed rewards if you know how to spend your rl money correctly in game (not suggesting rmt either, entirely legitimate). pso2 is not actually always worth playing, but thankfully the game lets you know when it's worth playing.

is this supposed to make any sense?:-?

[gigawuts]

You guys have got to be kidding.

This is a completely false dilemma. All they need to do (at least with regards to PAs) is tweak numbers, which doesn't take anything resembling an appreciable amount of time to do. I can't even follow the logic that leads you from "fix the numbers" to "this will delay all future content!" They (now) have a dedicated balance team for a reason. If they didn't fix this shit they wouldn't be doing their fucking jobs.

Hell, they don't even need a balance team. Just ONE guy who actually plays the game and has a decent grasp of basic arithmetic can do a better job than they're doing now (and what they're doing now is obviously just slapdashing whatever the crap numbers they "feel" is appropriate and letting come what may).

If it was really this darn easy for them it'd already be done.

It's not that easy for them. Either they don't understand their own game, or they don't care to act on what they do understand.

Their job is to make money, and they're doing that. They're doing their jobs.

They dole out stuff to each class because some people have to play as certain classes because they simply can't identify as anything else, but the motivator isn't balance; it's the money balance will bring. Anything more than the most basic of "balance" is completely superfluous and an unnecessary waste of resources in their eyes, and they're arguably right.

Cyron already said it best: Sega.

Don't like any of that? That's unfortunate, but you don't get to deny reality because you don't like it.

[infiniteeverlasting]

im LOL'ed so hard at how the guy deleted his comment after seeing the apology just now, i just cant stop laughing XXXXXXXD

[9898]

is this supposed to make any sense?:-?
back to the cave, son

[Alukard]

back to the cave, son

Did you cook the dinner, bitch? I need to finish my drawing on the walls afterwards, so there is sufficient historical evidence that I raped you. :lol:

[9898]

Did you cook the dinner, bitch? I need to finish my drawing on the walls afterwards, so there is sufficient historical evidence that I raped you. :lol:
u wanna see something cool?


lemme pull down my pants

[Alukard]

u wanna see something cool?


lemme pull down my pants

What are you? A futa?

[9898]

What are you? A futa?

yeah, patterend after the famous 1 midori

[Misaki Ki]

ohmy!

[LonelyGaruga]

im LOL'ed so hard at how the guy deleted his comment after seeing the apology just now, i just cant stop laughing XXXXXXXD

You mean me? Let me make sure. You find it funny, that I spent half an hour writing that post, only to find that the person apologized, and decided to delete said post, hopefully before they read it, because otherwise it would just result in further pointless arguing, or worse, hurt feelings. I'm sorry to hear that someone being capable of sensitivity on the internet is so amusing to you, if it is me you're referring to.

They apologized, what I wrote became moot, I deleted it. Simple. I don't see what's so funny about that.

[Vampy]

You guys have got to be kidding.

This is a completely false dilemma. All they need to do (at least with regards to PAs) is tweak numbers, which doesn't take anything resembling an appreciable amount of time to do. I can't even follow the logic that leads you from "fix the numbers" to "this will delay all future content!" They (now) have a dedicated balance team for a reason. If they didn't fix this shit they wouldn't be doing their fucking jobs.

Hell, they don't even need a balance team. Just ONE guy who actually plays the game and has a decent grasp of basic arithmetic can do a better job than they're doing now (and what they're doing now is obviously just slapdashing whatever the crap numbers they "feel" is appropriate and letting come what may).

The issue isn't just numbers it's a big part yes, but the way some PAs function makes it so they are still ouclassed by most other PAs in the same weapon class.

Techs would benefit more from power boosts than most PAs Some have to be made faster others, shortened cool times, fix the timing of just attacks. Numbers isn't the end all be all for all PAs.

[XPKun]

The issue isn't just numbers it's a big part yes, but the way some PAs function makes it so they are still ouclassed by most other PAs in the same weapon class.

Techs would benefit more from power boosts than most PAs Some have to be made faster others, shortened cool times, fix the timing of just attacks. Numbers isn't the end all be all for all PAs.

This. If all PAs of the same weapon class dealt the same end damage, things will be even more broken. Can you guys imagine Kanran doing the same damage as Hatou or even shunka...? ^^;

[GoldenFalcon]

The issue isn't just numbers it's a big part yes, but the way some PAs function makes it so they are still ouclassed by most other PAs in the same weapon class.

Balancing the options within one class comes later.

[Vampy]

Balancing the options within one class comes later.

I agree sega has been doing better across all classes it's a start. Within a classes specific weapons should come later when every class can be viable next to the other.

[Zyrusticae]

[SPOILER-BOX]If it was really this darn easy for them it'd already be done.

It's not that easy for them. Either they don't understand their own game, or they don't care to act on what they do understand.

Their job is to make money, and they're doing that. They're doing their jobs.

They dole out stuff to each class because some people have to play as certain classes because they simply can't identify as anything else, but the motivator isn't balance; it's the money balance will bring. Anything more than the most basic of "balance" is completely superfluous and an unnecessary waste of resources in their eyes, and they're arguably right.

Cyron already said it best: Sega.

Don't like any of that? That's unfortunate, but you don't get to deny reality because you don't like it.[/SPOILER-BOX]
Sure, but you know, that's not going to stop me from talking about it, even if it is merely in the realm of the hypothetical.

The issue isn't just numbers it's a big part yes, but the way some PAs function makes it so they are still ouclassed by most other PAs in the same weapon class.

Techs would benefit more from power boosts than most PAs Some have to be made faster others, shortened cool times, fix the timing of just attacks. Numbers isn't the end all be all for all PAs.
Numbers are still an undeniably huge part of it, however. I'm absolutely certain you could get most PAs within the same ballpark even without changing their other properties. Granted, some attacks will never be used even if they do astronomical damage simply because they're so unsafe or so niche, but that's just part of the territory IMO.

This. If all PAs of the same weapon class dealt the same end damage, things will be even more broken. Can you guys imagine Kanran doing the same damage as Hatou or even shunka...? ^^;
I don't know what you're imagining, but I understand that AoE size and attack speed are huge parts of what determines final DPS and I assumed everyone else understood this as well.

[XPKun]

I don't know what you're imagining, but I understand that AoE size and attack speed are huge parts of what determines final DPS and I assumed everyone else understood this as well.

So you do understand it. It can't be just a simple adjustment on PA power because that would result in half-assed solutions. AoE, casting/charging speed, execution speed, pp usage, ease of use, and a lot of other factors are exactly the reasons why SEGA's not bothering with it at the moment. There are other glaring balance problems that needs to be addressed first. Problems that are or potentially costing them more money if they don't bother to fix. Maybe they aren't even thinking of addressing the issue you're going on about just because it may not be profitable for them or is not generating enough of a headache yet.

[Nitro Vordex]

I was gonna watch something on Hulu while I ate dinner, but this thread was even better.

Hell I don't even know what to add to this thread now.

Um. Nerf Shunka, but don't nerf it. People who can't use it effectively should stay dead, anyway.

[Hobu]

BITCHES PLEASE. WITHOUT SHUNKA SHUNRAN AND OVERPOWERED SROLLS AND SATELLITE CANNON, YOU CAN'T EVEN RUN 3 RUNS D00D WHEN YOUR PARTY CANT EVEN GO BEYOND 3K BURSTS.

Heh, just kidding. I do however, enjoy doing 100k per hit Shunkas on Falz Loser. Super Hardest OMG BOSS? I afk and that 5 minutes turn into 10 minutes, inducing more frustration. I don't give a rat's ass about balance, there isn't even PVP to make it worth building a high damage character. This game is too easy already, and drop rates? F that, I just want the Shinsensta stones. I'm already too rich to care anyway. At least not Arksenth level rich, but rich enough to know that I really don't need anything else when I contribute a large portion of damage to the boss killing party.

[D-Inferno]

Here is what I think needs to be done for each class:

Hunter - Nerf Fury Stance multipliers; Stance and Boosts become x1.1/1.05 each; Combo becomes x1.1). This is about a 25% nerf to both striking and ranged; it nerfs RA, GU, and BR all at once. However, many melee/ranged PAs should get a boost somewhere (not most RA/Shunka/Hatou though). Remove a bunch of def skills, and make many of them 5 points. Fold most of the defensive skills into Guard Stance itself (only 10 SP needed to become a tank for the most part). PSO2 favors offense, so defense should have it easy for SP. Add the ability to dual stance (your offenese goes down a little, but you become bulky).

Fighter - Dual Stance would help for quests like TD (FI's flaw of reliance on front/back is starting to show).

Ranger - Ditch the entire trap tree, and just let every class use traps (or just RA/GU/BR). Standing Snipe should boost techs. -Maybe- let Weak Hit Adv boost melee damage. Maybe make the launcher skills less trash.

Gunner - Nerf S-Roll down to 1.3x. Add another skill that applies boosts to all damage to make up for the Fury/S-Roll nerfs. This also would make RA/GU and GU/RA better, so a ranged-dedicated character isn't forced to level HU to get the best damage.

Force - A few SP req nerfs would help a little. Tech Charge and JA Advance should boost PA damage too.

Techer - A few more SP req nerfs would help. The addition of Element Weak Hit Charge (30% boost to charge techs and attacks) would help improve Techer's power. Removing melee/ranged boosts from EHW, and making a Avg Stance-like skill (skills would replace PP Up 1 and everything below it). However, some techs would need a nerf (Ilbarta, Sazan, Ilmegid). "Episode 1" Rare Darkers along with Funji/Clones/ect need a Light weakness. In fact, removing Light Mastery skills and just making Light techs naturally strong would help with weakness coverage (make non-Darkers light resistant a little to avoid possible imbalance).

Braver - Avg/Weak Charge skills should be nixed, and just make the base stance skills and the boost skills stronger, making it a better sub for other classes. Many of the class's PAs need a boost.

Regarding buffing PAs, they really should let you nix the combo system on melee weps and mechs, and let you use a palette like on RA weps/Bows/Tech weps. Guard/s-roll/ect could be mapped to the left stick button or something (though s-roll should have the option of being mapped to the dodge button). The option to use the old combo system can remain though.

To make up for nerfs, they should make it so that your rank in TD only drops if a tower actually gets destroyed (this would make TD2 more bearable with randoms). Plus better exp/drops and what not to make up for nerfs.

Alright, bed time for me.

[Vetur]

I don't know if hunter should be nerfed... Unless it means PAs being strong enough to make up for the nerf in fury stance, because it feels like they're already weaker than other classes, as a main, at least for the un-funded non-pro player like myself.

[GoldenFalcon]

Hunter - Nerf Fury Stance multipliers; Stance and Boosts become x1.1/1.05 each

No. It becomes a pathetic average stance then.

The problem is JA Advance 1 and 2 being in the Fury side (and nothing else). These 2 skills should be swapped with skills from the Guard side, like S-Atk 2 and HP Up 2. And move over things like Automate Deadline and HP Up 3 as well. There is NO REASON Guard side should have 3 times as many skills. Also, Fury having HP makes thematic sense.

[Sanguine2009]

Techer - A few more SP req nerfs would help. The addition of Element Weak Hit Charge (30% boost to charge techs and attacks) would help improve Techer's power. Removing melee/ranged boosts from EHW, and making a Avg Stance-like skill (skills would replace PP Up 1 and everything below it). However, some techs would need a nerf (Ilbarta, Sazan, Ilmegid). "Episode 1" Rare Darkers along with Funji/Clones/ect need a Light weakness. In fact, removing Light Mastery skills and just making Light techs naturally strong would help with weakness coverage (make non-Darkers light resistant a little to avoid possible imbalance).

these changes would completely gut techer mains and would relegate te to sub slave even more than it is currently.
a better change would be a skill that changes wand element based on the techs slotted into it, pp charge revival being an innate part of all techs and maybe element weak hit 2

[Hobu]

If anything, they should remove the R-atk from Fury Stance completely, and buff the R-atk bonuses from Average/Weak Stance.

Make it that R-atk is the biggest bonus to be had from Braver tree, and S/T-atk would remain as is but significantly lower in comparison.

Fury Stance? Give it T-atk bonuses instead!

[Kikikiki]

which is why american's law system is a failure, showcased right here on the forums. it's all about who argues the best, is arguing really that valuable of a skill? in the end its all about who can hide their ego the best and still convince others. smh smh.

This little shit is talking?

Back on topic:

No, I don't really think that the nerfs will impact GU or BR that much. BR is obvious. GU is, well:

Before GU was shit because it didn't have any utility PAs like AoE and single-target damage and stuff. Now they do.

Even if GU didn't have SRoll JA bonus, I personally think that GU will still be fine. Maybe people will start investing in a rifle as a GU.

Or maybe they will start moving forward to GU/RA or RA/GU.

Or maybe, you know, just play RA/HU because then it'd take too much effort.

But really, in the end, seeing how buffed classes like RA and FO are making a return, I don't think SEGA will find the need to nerf them. And they mostly won't do.

[Ephidiel]

why dont we simply remove PAs and Skilltrees and play on normal attacks only

every nerf complaint makes it sound like this is what they want

[Arksenth]

why dont we simply remove PAs and Skilltrees and play on normal attacks only

every nerf complaint makes it sound like this is what they want

FINALLY TECHER SUPREMACY.

[Macman]

FINALLY TECHER SUPREMACY.
Remove techs too. Where's your Zondeel now?

[relentless]

They should buff Shunka in speed, range and power and decrease PP cost and also give invincibility frames during its execution.

[BlueCast Boy]

Idk about all you guys who does'nt really like Techter that much asides from using wands there actually best sub for Hunters(Hu/Te) which gives them versatility.
Even thou all those Shunka and Gu S-Roll is more faster, Hu/Te is a pretty fun class I've played and experience 0 30

[Kantalope]

You can normal attack your way to 30 without learning any PAs. I wouldn't recommend it, but the fact that you got to 30 with it doesn't make it good.

[Aine]

Ilmegido is powerful and easy to use, but it doesn't actually seem that broken to me. Ilbarta on the other hand is pretty insane against mobs, despite the fact that it's supposed to be an anti-boss tech.

[Arksenth]

HU doesn't get penalized THAT badly with a TE sub damage-wise compared to other mains assuming you're element matching with EWH, but the other problem is that all of HU's weapons are far outclassed endgame anyway except for circumstantial use. Maybe a HU rehaul would fix that.

[Hobu]

Only WL and Partizans need a buff. Swords? Nope.

[D-Inferno]

No. It becomes a pathetic average stance then.

The problem is JA Advance 1 and 2 being in the Fury side (and nothing else). These 2 skills should be swapped with skills from the Guard side, like S-Atk 2 and HP Up 2. And move over things like Automate Deadline and HP Up 3 as well. There is NO REASON Guard side should have 3 times as many skills. Also, Fury having HP makes thematic sense.

Fury would be x1.46/1.27/1.1, which is still better than Avg Stance for melee. And while not part of Fury, JA Bonuses are still part of the overall class. And moving JA bonuses to the def side would be dumb. Defense should just take very little SP to max. Not to mention PSO2 fundamentally favors DPS/dodging over tanking.

[gigawuts]

Ilmegido is powerful and easy to use, but it doesn't actually seem that broken to me. Ilbarta on the other hand is pretty insane against mobs, despite the fact that it's supposed to be an anti-boss tech.

Il barta does seem excessively strong on trash mobs, but I can't really place my finger on why that is. There are other techs that function almost as well, but can also do other things well, and nobody gives them a hard time.

Ilbarta's a precision tech, first and foremost. I don't think it's for bossing so much as for sustained precision damage - but while they wanted X dps, they didn't want X/7 damage for just one hit. So the counter was added to ramp up damage after the second hit, and is a great solution to that problem since the second hit will usually kill of trash mobs regardless. Bosses are pretty much the only things that can survive to the 7th hit, so in effect it may as well be for bossing - but on weaker characters it's still good for tankier mobs.

Anyway, re: reducing Fury Stance's bonuses, the large damage is only part of the problem. It's not even Hunter's problem, either. It's everybody else's problem. Hunter's problem is having to spend so much SP there. Do you think anything is going to be alleviated when the damage:SP ratio is reduced even more, but not the actual SP count? God no. The best solution to Fury Stance is to remove skills entirely and reduce SP requirements for defense/support skills (while boosting melee PA damage, obviously).

Remove Fury Stance Up 2, reduce Fury Combo Up to 5 SP (keep at 20%, or change it to -x% PP cost during Fury Stance), and reduce both JA Bonuses to 5 SP (or combine them into 1 skill). Boost striking PAs appropriately to compensate. Now for the real kicker: Convert some PAs to ranged damage. Which ones? I'd like Twister Fall's AOE, Sonic Arrow, Kaiser Rise and Sacred Skewer for starters. I want to see HU/RA be a thing. Chase Advance would still work for these moves despite the damagetype change.

[Vampy]

I like ilmegid it fixes a lot of the issues I had with force prior. I just wish a dark focused tree didn't hurt my use of the other elements because I like using a variety of techs in different situations.

[LonelyGaruga]

Ilmegid is definitely head and shoulders above other techs (at least for mobbing), with a proper build. When you can one-shot, or at worst, two-shot, every mob in an area, regardless of weakness, that's when Ilmegid's potency really shines. The problem is actually getting to that point. Ilbarta, on the other hand, is very easy to get to the point of one-shotting mobs, but with a min-maxed Ice build, you're still falling short of the mass murder a proper Ilmegid build pulls off, because it's just a single target tech.

[Vampy]

I like ilmegid for that reason it is great for mobbing with the right build. The issue is that is the only thing it's good for so for the most part it's ilmegid for mobbing and namegid for bossing. I wish my options were not so limited.

[Nitro Vordex]

why dont we simply remove PAs and Skilltrees and play on normal attacks only

every nerf complaint makes it sound like this is what they want
PSO1 LET'S DO THIS.

[gigawuts]

I actually want a system more like Monster Hunter, where attacks lead into other attacks, which lead into other attacks which may form a repeating cycle.

The problem is that's difficult to balance in a completed game, nevermind a game with continuously added attacks.

[LonelyGaruga]

What exactly brings merit to such a change? Making PSO2 more like MH isn't necessarily going to make it better, and MH doesn't even use that system with all of its weapons (namely ranged ones), much like how PSO2 doesn't use the standard alternating PA system for ranged and tech weapons (Twin Machineguns aside). Instead of mimicking other games, PSO2 should be perfecting the combat system it already has in play.

[Sizustar]

http://i.imgur.com/Axq2B3g.jpg

[Misaki Ki]

^ Hotlinking issue I think, can't see.

Edit: Fixed <3

[AkumaYouji]

this is a community full of people that think he's a waste of time because he takes >1min to kill and you don't neuter his attack range by breaking parts

this is a community full of people that think he needs to be removed

this is a community full of people that complained bosses die too fast and they need to be more aggressive, yet when doritos pope and falz luther showed up they began crying that they actually do damage and have hp

this is a community that doesn't know what it wants

luther is perfectly fine and if anybody thinks he isn't then maybe you should stop playing full defense te/hu shooting ilgrants at his core with your crafted 1* wand and contribute something to your party for a change
Haha, maybe i'm part of the minority but I found that the longer boss fight was more entertaining, kept you more on edge and felt less grindy/give me my 10/11 stars and leave type of fight. there are a few attacks that I find obnoxious (the ooze circles on the floor come to mind) but that's just me not adjusting to his attack patterns yet. Overall, I definitely think loser is more fun than elder but things like this are all matters of opinion.

[Sanguine2009]

i wish they would patch out miraging losers clock. it makes the fight too easy/fast. at least give him a health buff if they wont do that

[Rakurai]

Length isn't going to equate to difficulty as long as a quest doesn't fail until everyone in the entire quest has returned to the campship.

Otherwise, there might actually be a risk of people exhausting their healing items.

I consider the average kill speed of 10-15 minutes for my runs to be satisfactory, personally.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

They shouldn't patch the miraging. That's not the reason the fight becomes easy. It was already easy to begin with.

This just makes it faster and people can get alt runs in.

[GHNeko]

I feel that if Sega wants to give us a real good boss battle, the path to that is to craft the boss around end-game meta and scale downward appropriately.

The bosses get trampled after a while of everyone running them because the second we learn the bosses patterns and weaknesses, then its a wrap.

But if we do that, and the bosses is tailored to counter end-game play and builds and similar, but have it so that those methods of play are still the best way to win, then everyone is forced to deal with a boss that intentionally is designed to counter them and that's where the difficulty starts.

At least that's what I think. I'm too familiar with PSO2 meta to really know if this is viable or not.

[Sanguine2009]

people should not have to/be able to switch characters to get alt runs in the first place. i may be in the minority but i feel sega should patch that out and allow people to just run it on a single character until the time runs out like TD -or barring that remove the ability to get multible runs entirely

[isCasted]

IMO you shouldn't be able to break clock. They could make you able to mirage and open clock 3 times, but those should be the only times when it's exposed.

[Ephidiel]

while we are at it lets patch all status ailments out as well
no more shock or poison only players can be afflicted by it

no more shocking elder and lets double his HP while we are at it lets remove weakpoints and wb as well

[FerrickX]

while we're at it, lets remove all PAs and all weapons are made out of cardboard, and only does 1 damage per hit

[Sanguine2009]

status vs normal mobs are fine, status vs bosses that cripple them are not. hell i would be all for removing weak bullet entirely now that ranger can hold its own without it

[FerrickX]

while we're at it, lets just remove all stances, all weapon bonus

hell, lets just remove ALL the skill trees and have mags made out of hollow plastic and can't do any damage even when PB, and would not add any stats

and lets just rename the whole game Phantasy star online Very Balanced Edition

[LonelyGaruga]

status vs normal mobs are fine, status vs bosses that cripple them are not.

There's the fix. Adjustments to make the status effects not crippling. Reducing how much damage is done on weak points exposed, increasing boss health so that you have to take advantage of status effects just to get a timely run, and making it harder to take advantage of these status effects when they're inflicted are routes Sega can take to make this fair without removing the ability to inflict a status on a boss.