Shunran Nerf soon! Ja Roll , nah not now

[Ciel~Homura]

Source : http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=3375

Let's see what will happens :-D ! THIS 11 JUNE !

[Alukard]

Old news, people discussed this in a different topic already.

[Ciel~Homura]

Old news, people discussed this in a different topic already.

Sorry lllOrz

[Macman]

Well they're trying to make other katana PAs useful so it'll spice up Braver gameplay, which is good in my book since Shunka gets boring so fast.

Crippling S Roll JA while not helping gunners in another fashion would just kill their viability and shove them back into below-mediocrity where they started.

[Punisher106]

In my opinion, Braver felt kind of boring, compared to fighter/hunter/etc until Shunka came along. It kind of compensates for the relatively lackluster damage Sakura-Endo does. I barely touched Braver, and stuck with Darcher/Raging Waltz as a fighter, and Slide End/Assault Buster as a Hunter. Let's hope it's something like a PP cost boost. We don't want to make Bravers next to useless, now, do we?

[Lumpen Thingy]

In my opinion, Braver felt kind of boring, compared to fighter/hunter/etc until Shunka came along. It kind of compensates for the relatively lackluster damage Sakura-Endo does. I barely touched Braver, and stuck with Darcher/Raging Waltz as a fighter, and Slide End/Assault Buster as a Hunter. Let's hope it's something like a PP cost boost. We don't want to make Bravers next to useless, now, do we?

if all you do is spam shunka and think sakura endo was ok untill shunka came out then you didn't play the class right what so ever. hatou rindou came out months before shunka and put braver on the map for single target dps so this nerf isn't going to do shit to good bravers that don't just shunka spam like fuck tards

[Alukard]

if all you do is spam shunka and think sakura endo was ok untill shunka came out then you didn't play the class right what so ever. hatou rindou came out months before shunka and put braver on the map for single target dps so this nerf isn't going to do shit to good bravers that don't just shunka spam like fuck tards

I wish people would think for a second before they post bs like this. It will do harm to "good players", too. Hatou is a dps monster but it isn't pp efficient at all. It has also more specific requirements than shunka. You can work around it in ta, where the spawns are set. It's a serious handicap in AQ's though.

Take the redbox in alter ta as example. If your ping is good enough, you can kill all 3 enemies with just one shunka. Alternatively you could hatou 3 times. That's 30pp vs 90pp.

[Lumpen Thingy]

I wish people would think for a second before they post bs like this. It will do harm to "good players", too. Hatou is a dps monster but it isn't pp efficient at all. It has also more specific requirements than shunka. You can work around it in ta, where the spawns are set. It's a serious handicap in AQ's though.

Take the redbox in alter ta as example. If your ping is good enough, you can kill all 3 enemies with just one shunka. Alternatively you could hatou 3 times. That's 30pp vs 90pp.

to get more pp and problem solved? because thats what is sounds like to me unless you're a retard braver with like 110 pp for some reason

[Alukard]

to get more pp and problem solved? because thats what is sounds like to me unless you're a retard braver with like 110 pp for some reason

Doesn't change the fact that it's less pp efficient and has more specific requirements or are you this dense?

Edit: You can affix for more pp at the cost of s-atk. But that won't add another hatou, since you'd need to reach 180pp for a 6th hatou. Most people(bravers) that played this game for a few month have usually around 150pp

[btw-Niji]

RIP BR in Nab2, Amdu, TD1 and TD2 when this bullshit change rolls in.

[BIG OLAF]

RIP BR in Nab2, Amdu, TD1 and TD2 when this bullshit change rolls in.

That's the goal, yes.

[Alukard]

That's the goal, yes.

One more post towards your 10 thousands post of bs, I guess.

[Walkure]

I'ma laugh if everyone switches to GU for TD1/2 now, prompting them to nerf S-Roll.

[BIG OLAF]

I'ma laugh if everyone switches to GU for TD1/2 now, prompting them to nerf S-Roll.

Wasn't an S-Roll nerf in the pipelines already? Or maybe that was a hypothetical discussion with a friend I was thinking of.

[btw-Niji]

GU is kinda bad tho

[btw-Niji]

actually, forget what i said

if you're dino, gu is kinda good

[Macman]

I'ma laugh if everyone switches to FO for TD1/2 now, prompting them to nerf Ilmegid.
More accurate.

[Ciel~Homura]

In any case that nerf " does affect everyone " , of course. Not just a good/bad braver but it affect all of Braver players. But how it will affect is depends on how skilled and how fast you can learn a new trick.

As mentioned if some Braver just shunka, shunka, shunka then they are totally ruined themselves. It is their false to make an inefficiency plays like that.

Yet, shunka shunran does make life become easier since you can deal a fast and powerful dmg while following the target too.

For my own opinion, i'd say that nerfing it power by 50% still doesn't affect my playstyles that much anyway. But we all will see it together when it happens :-D


I'ma laugh if everyone switches to GU for TD1/2 now, prompting them to nerf S-Roll.

I am not sure about this since S-Roll is not a 2nd OP option right now. I guess the things ppl are more likely to sue next might be ILmegid and Sattelite.

[Gardios]

More accurate.

can we just nerf both

[Ciel~Homura]

I'ma laugh if everyone switches to FO for TD1/2 now, prompting them to nerf Ilmegid.


More accurate.


@Macman Please , accept my like

[Z-0]

Ilmegid is so dumb.

Everything is at the tower. Let's not Zondeel and help the others, let's just spam Ilmegid instead.

. _. It's not even the way to rank either, considering my friend Ponthi got second using just fire techs and Zondeel (while there were Ilmegid spammers on the map):

http://puu.sh/96dz7/0414a5a8e5.jpg

[Alukard]

In any case that nerf " does affect everyone " , of course. Not just a good/bad braver but it affect all of Braver players. But how it will affect is depends on how skilled and how fast you can learn a new trick.

As mentioned if some Braver just shunka, shunka, shunka then they are totally ruined themselves. It is their false to make an inefficiency plays like that.

Yet, shunka shunran does make life become easier since you can deal a fast and powerful dmg while following the target too.

For my own opinion, i'd say that nerfing it power by 50% still doesn't affect my playstyles that much anyway. But we all will see it together when it happens :-D



I am not sure about this since S-Roll is not a 2nd OP option right now. I guess the things ppl are more likely to sue next might be ILmegid and Sattelite.

Yes, the most significant impact will be for the good players, because they will be significantly handicaped when competing with previous times in TA. I don't expect a casual like you to have any inside in that.

Edit: Eventually there will be other classes that can replace braver in one or the other ta quest now.

[btw-Niji]

Ilmegid is so dumb.

Everything is at the tower. Let's not Zondeel and help the others, let's just spam Ilmegid instead.

. _. It's not even the way to rank either, considering my friend Ponthi got second using just fire techs and Zondeel (while there were Ilmegid spammers on the map):

http://puu.sh/96dz7/0414a5a8e5.jpg
correction:
ﾃﾞｭﾏ子＞ｷｬｽ男

also, illmegid needs to be removed omg

[Macman]

. _. It's not even the way to rank either, considering my friend Ponthi got second using just fire techs and Zondeel (while there were Ilmegid spammers on the map):

http://puu.sh/96dz7/0414a5a8e5.jpg
Must've been some weaksauce Ilmegids, then.

Also Ilmegid is more suited to TD2 where the monsters are more spread out. Zondeel works best in TD1 where all the monsters run single file to the tower.

[Rakurai]

I would've preferred that they remove S-Roll JA entirely and distribute its (Nerfed) damage bonus among other Gunner skills. Having to flip before every attack to avoid doing laughable damage is annoying.

[LordKaiser]

Well to be honest I don't like the other Braver PAs much except Tsukimi and Sakura-endo. The other cool PA called Asagiri is a pain to control more than Shunka. SEGA needs to add more interesting PAs other than Kazan who is so freaking slow. Also they NEED to lower Fodou requirement. It's stupid have a PA that only stuns with so high pp requirement.

[Ciel~Homura]

Yes, the most significant impact will be for the good players, because they will be significantly handicaped when competing with previous times in TA. I don't expect a casual like you to have any inside in that.

Edit: Eventually there will be other classes that can replace braver now in one or the other ta quest.

It is of course impact a TA competing. But isn't that just for show ? It still doesn't affect a lot since everyone got nerf at the same time. So... everyone need to re-arrange their tactic.

Let's see an easy example about TA. In ranking competing everyone already got nerf so there is no upperhand for anyone(braver) (you don't get anything for competing a past TA and present TA anyway since in-game ranking is a real time static).

hmm... did i miss something ? sorry if i misunderstand your point.

[btw-Niji]

Must've been some weaksauce Ilmegids, then.

Also Ilmegid is more suited to TD2 where the monsters are more spread out. Zondeel works best in TD1 where all the monsters run single file to the tower.
lol sorry but... even in TD2, Illmegid is garbage. You'd be helping the MPA much more with Zondeel than doing shit 10kish damage and pulling aggro of enemies from other lanes, effectively screwing over others.

[Esofor]

irumegiddo*

[Walkure]

GU is kinda bad tho
Orite. I just kneejerked off the title. So much for that then.

[Alukard]

It is of course impact a TA competing. But isn't that just for show ? It still doesn't affect a lot since everyone got nerf at the same time. So... everyone need to re-arrange their tactic.

Let's see an easy example about TA. In ranking competing everyone already got nerf so there is no upperhand for anyone(braver) (you don't get anything for competing a past TA and present TA anyway since in-game ranking is a real time static).

hmm... did i miss something ? sorry if i misunderstand your point.

I'm not talking about rankings. I'm talking about the general best times. I'm well aware that a god like you doesn't care about something he doesn't get a material reward for, but there are people that like to compete against others and they get prestige for performing well. Time attack is going to stagnate until there will be new items/PAs or an alternative to braver.

[Ciel~Homura]

I'm not talking about rankings. I'm talking about the general best times. I'm well aware that a god like you doesn't care about something he doesn't get a material reward for, but there are people that like to compete against others and they get prestige for performing well. Time attack is going to stagnate until there will be new items/PAs or an alternative to braver.

Ah , i see. Orz If that the case then it can't be help.

[RollTheDice]

Sega needs to stop talking shit and just do it already.

[btw-Niji]

irumegiddo*
Irumegido*

[Gardios]

If you say it again, Inazuma will appear.

[jiasu73]

Irumegido!

[NexusAZ]

I wish people would think for a second before they post bs like this. It will do harm to "good players", too. Hatou is a dps monster but it isn't pp efficient at all. It has also more specific requirements than shunka. You can work around it in ta, where the spawns are set. It's a serious handicap in AQ's though.

Take the redbox in alter ta as example. If your ping is good enough, you can kill all 3 enemies with just one shunka. Alternatively you could hatou 3 times. That's 30pp vs 90pp.

That's part of the problem. The damage it can put out for it's PP is insane. It has super armor, it's pretty damn good gap closer(mid PA as well) and does a crazy amount of damage for 30 PP. It's way too good.

Side note: I would kinda like to see a Katana Combat nerf as well at some point. 20 seconds of invincibility is a bit much on top of the damage boost it gives through skills and the finish. I would rather it be damage reduction instead of invincibility. Just a thought. :-?

[Ciel~Homura]

That's part of the problem. The damage it can put out for it's PP is insane. It has super armor, it's pretty damn good gap closer(mid PA as well) and does a crazy amount of damage for 30 PP. It's way too good.

Side note: I would kinda like to see a Katana Combat nerf as well at some point. 20 seconds of invincibility is a bit much on top of the damage boost it gives through skills and the finish. I would rather it be damage reduction instead of invincibility. Just a thought. :-?

[spoiler-box]http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/425/065/3e5.png[/spoiler-box]

How about give us some average useful bow tree skills before that happen :wacko: ?

[Macman]

I'm not talking about rankings. I'm talking about the general best times. I'm well aware that a god like you doesn't care about something he doesn't get a material reward for, but there are people that like to compete against others and they get prestige for performing well. Time attack is going to stagnate until there will be new items/PAs or an alternative to braver.
If the people maintaining records had any sense of integrity, they'd start a new bracket (and keep the old records just for the sake of record keeping) to reflect such a meta-game changing balance update.

It's like if they somehow removed your stupid dash exploits, you'd never manage your insane times again so it would only make sense to start anew, right?

[Gamemako]

Crippling S Roll JA while not helping gunners in another fashion would just kill their viability and shove them back into below-mediocrity where they started.

Crippling stylish roll in general needs to happen to make gunners worth playing for the human behind the keyboard. You don't want a class where everything is prefixed by S-trollolo, just like you don't want katana reduced to shunkashunkashunkashunka choo choo! All aboard the shunka rape train! Next stop: there ain't no gettin' offa this train we on! The problem is that so many other things are also stupidly, monstrously broken and need 50-75% nerfs. It's worse than anything in memory.

[Z-0]

If the people maintaining records had any sense of integrity, they'd start a new bracket (and keep the old records just for the sake of record keeping) to reflect such a meta-game changing balance update.

It's like if they somehow removed your stupid dash exploits, you'd never manage your insane times again so it would only make sense to start anew, right?
Well yes, of course, but it still ruins what people have worked on so far.

In my opinion, Shunka Shunran never needed a nerf. It fit perfectly well with the pace of the game and how it worked, but I guess I'm not playing the same game as you guys.

It's funny, because the top-tier metagame is much more balanced than you might think. RaBr and FoBr use Katana, HuTe is a very viable option (hell, GuTe was before Bibras Bow happened), Aiming Shot and Thrillsplosion see use, Rifle and Launcher both use more than 3 PAs each, rather than whatever the cookie-cutter best is, Bravers use more than just Shunka (they even use bow, believe it or not), RaHu uses Partisan (and so does anything that has access to it, actually) and everything is just hella creative and varied.

Have you guys ever stopped to consider that the problem lies not in the attacks, but how the game is designed? The longer quests are simply just random spawns laid out on random maps, the more these problems will arise, because the best thing to use will almost always be one thing.

edit: Also, those "stupid dash exploits" are what make the game fun. The game is braindead easy without them and requires extremely little thought.

[Esofor]

i agree

as it stands, people who think shunka needs a nerf at this very moment are very ignorant to how the game has actually evolved.

[Gardios]

Have you guys ever stopped to consider that the problem lies not in the attacks, but how the game is designed?

They're both problematic to varying degrees, and in the end go hand in hand.

[Rien]

Yeah, I'm pretty angry over the Shunka nerf after what they did to every. other. class

but what pisses me off the most is that they thought Asagiri Rendan would prove useful for anything more than a dashing tool.

Yes, you could say it works like an uncharged Guilty Break, but it has delays, leaves you frozen on the spot while you attack UNLIKE shunka which could consistently chase a moving non-flinchable enemy, attacks with a smaller range than Guilty Break AND, god forbid, it's main source of damage a finisher attack with as small a range as the rest of it!

I can only hope they intend to leave Shunka as the katana go-to boss PA or else we're going to have PP issues worse than Backhand Smash spam.

(p.s we also need an increase on counter edge's range)
(p.p.s we also need a gekka zakuro latent that shoots waves like counter edge)

[Gamemako]

In my opinion, Shunka Shunran never needed a nerf. It fit perfectly well with the pace of the game and how it worked, but I guess I'm not playing the same game as you guys. It's funny, because the top-tier metagame is much more balanced than you might think. RaBr and FoBr use Katana, HuTe is a very viable option (hell, GuTe was before Bibras Bow happened), [etc].

Have you guys ever stopped to consider that the problem lies not in the attacks, but how the game is designed?

You're mistaking feasible for efficient. You can play through the entire game with various crap builds. You can even build an entire team full of crap builds and still win if your gear and execution are top-notch. The fight just takes 3 times as long and you're vastly more likely to fail by death or error regardless of skill level. That is the very definition of a balance failure.

There have already been volumes written about the interplay of design errors and balance failures here. That does not mean that the present balance issues can be designed out, however. Massive stacking bonuses don't just up and disappear because you made the enemies hit harder or attack more effectively, and Shunka doesn't stop being the end-all-be-all instant-interrupt high-damage super-efficient gap-closer.

[seilent]

The shunka damage is fine i think, just add PP consumption since the total damage is similar to namegid..
so ppl can choose between PP killer PA or more constant damaging PA..

and katana's JA is not bad if u don't just hold the left mouse button to do it..

[Z-0]

You're kind of missing the point, I think. (2 posts up)

[Xaelouse]

i agree

as it stands, people who think shunka needs a nerf at this very moment are very ignorant to how the game has actually evolved.

I think it needs to nerf because it has the most misleading power notation in the game
The only way for it to make sense is for the move to take up more PP each slash

[Friyn]

Ilmegid is so dumb.

Everything is at the tower. Let's not Zondeel and help the others, let's just spam Ilmegid instead.

. _. It's not even the way to rank either, considering my friend Ponthi got second using just fire techs and Zondeel (while there were Ilmegid spammers on the map):

http://puu.sh/96dz7/0414a5a8e5.jpg

So much this. I'm seriously considering to get either Fo or Te up to lvl 50 so I could be a Zondeel + WB slave.
Can't say I'm perfectly ok with Il Megid as tech itself, but it's the players that piss me off more. You're more likely to see a Hu/Fi score first overall than see a proper usage of Zondeel in TD.

Option A: Spam Il Megid with mediocore to bad gear, effectively ruining the spawns and dragging TDs.
Option B: Throw a single Zondeel and speed up the run considerably.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

I'm fine with the nerf if other Katana PAs get buffs. Otherwise I guess I'll have to focus on gunslash and bows, the only other decent damage hitters I got.

maybe wired lance too idk

[Alukard]

You're mistaking feasible for efficient. You can play through the entire game with various crap builds. You can even build an entire team full of crap builds and still win if your gear and execution are top-notch. The fight just takes 3 times as long and you're vastly more likely to fail by death or error regardless of skill level. That is the very definition of a balance failure.

There have already been volumes written about the interplay of design errors and balance failures here. That does not mean that the present balance issues can be designed out, however. Massive stacking bonuses don't just up and disappear because you made the enemies hit harder or attack more effectively, and Shunka doesn't stop being the end-all-be-all instant-interrupt high-damage super-efficient gap-closer.

And by what criteria would we determine your skill then? By how poor your equipment is? If you want to measure skill like that you'll still have to do time attack. Because time is the only measureable criteria that would give us an objective result.

In the end the whole arguement about shunka being nerfed is that we don't want such restrictions ( such as having only certain gear available, let's take your example and go with crap gear), because the goal is to get the fastest time possible. Mainly because this standard was set already, sega gave us frequently new items and PA's that made it possible to go faster and faster. Looking at the previous pso/psu titles, this isn't anything new either. As one of my friends once said, pso games were always designed to be rushdown games in the endgame.

[Shadowth117]

In my opinion, Shunka Shunran never needed a nerf. It fit perfectly well with the pace of the game and how it worked, but I guess I'm not playing the same game as you guys.

It's funny, because the top-tier metagame is much more balanced than you might think. RaBr and FoBr use Katana, HuTe is a very viable option (hell, GuTe was before Bibras Bow happened), Aiming Shot and Thrillsplosion see use, Rifle and Launcher both use more than 3 PAs each, rather than whatever the cookie-cutter best is, Bravers use more than just Shunka (they even use bow, believe it or not), RaHu uses Partisan (and so does anything that has access to it, actually) and everything is just hella creative and varied.

Have you guys ever stopped to consider that the problem lies not in the attacks, but how the game is designed? The longer quests are simply just random spawns laid out on random maps, the more these problems will arise, because the best thing to use will almost always be one thing.

edit: Also, those "stupid dash exploits" are what make the game fun. The game is braindead easy without them and requires extremely little thought.

Some of this crap really depends on how you're looking at the game. But in the current meta I would agree that Shunka needs no change to it. I will however argue that its a little dumb how we have many weapons and skills that have little to no practical use anywhere in high level play. You can mess around with them for fun, but why use the SUPER AWESOME PA's on the sword when you can pull out a katana and get something that has more range than any sword move and also knocks down enemies. Though if you only care about the classes that can be sort of considered in the same, highest tier at any particular time then no there really isn't a problem.

I gotta agree with the fact that there's definitely variation in high level play right now. It is cool that there are many more cool attack strategies than there have been for a long time. The numerous generally unused things around such as the traps on ranger and many of hunter's main class weapon pa's, but its still pretty nice to play the top tier classes.

And again, gotta agree that the game's focus on randomness leads to stupidness. Many games compensate for things like that with smarter ai, but in this case we just have the same dumb ai that many SEGA games have which were designed to be slaughtered quickly and reliably. And... that's not really terribly interesting when you can run through the map straight to the boss. I mean I know there are games with good randomly designed levels, but when you make the game centered around creature drops and the enemies themselves are derp as hell, its a little dumb.

I do have to disagree with your opinion on dashing. Yes, we all have varied opinions on what fun is due to its nature. But you go on to say it makes the game change from being simple as hell when really... it doesn't at all. I would argue dashing is hard due to the difficulty for many of learning the technique, but performing it is well... I'll take your words: "braindead easy" and "requires extremely little thought" once you get it down. Its kinda cool and it makes a bit of a barrier between players, but it just seems so superficial. Unless you're going to tell me about how every single weapon switch is something you think extremely hard about when it really just comes down to deciding a reasonable time to pull out your weapon to rofl stomp whatever is blocking your way in almost every case.

[Punisher106]

Side note: I would kinda like to see a Katana Combat nerf as well at some point. 20 seconds of invincibility is a bit much on top of the damage boost it gives through skills and the finish. I would rather it be damage reduction instead of invincibility. Just a thought. :-?

How about you kill yourself? KC is perfectly fine as it is, even with that stupid cooldown it has. Without it, I would get facerolled at the Baize part during a solo abduction. At that, it hardly even saved me when I had to deal with ships.

[Shadowth117]

How about you kill yourself? KC is perfectly fine as it is, even with that stupid cooldown it has. Without it, I would get facerolled at the Baize part during a solo abduction. At that, it hardly even saved me when I had to deal with ships.

No, I'm gonna agree with the guy you quoted on that. No other class has access to a skill like that aside from mag gauge fill CHANCE of invincibility... which actually used to be guaranteed, but got nerfed.

As for getting screwed over in abduction without it? Please consider I dunno... every other class in the game maybe?

[BlueCast Boy]

On Shunka Shunran, they should'nt nerf the power so hard but still you should know that Shunka Shuran is the best "melee PA" has a powerful offensive damage making it extremely effective to bosses, gap closer with ease, decent on one to targets and the only downside is that there are unsafe moments but thats not much of case of BR shunkaneers...Shunka might need tone down a bit but not that much nerf so it give some katana PA more perspective in battle like Kanran and Hadou...I'm glad that some Katana PA's would have some buff...

Hey even If Shunka still nerf, its still very useful on any sort of things or situation...

[Cyron Tanryoku]

How about you kill yourself?
wow rude

[Punisher106]

No, I'm gonna agree with the guy you quoted on that. No other class has access to a skill like that aside from mag gauge fill CHANCE of invincibility... which actually used to be guaranteed, but got nerfed.

As for getting screwed over in abduction without it? Please consider I dunno... every other class in the game maybe?

Hunters have Iron Will, which saves them from facerolling 75% of the time at level 10. FO's and RA's keep their distances, so... Yeah.

I still think bows need a good AoE or multi-enemy PA.

[Gardios]

People are still trying to justify Combat Escape?

[BlueCast Boy]

Well bow needs buff, but does'nt Million Storm PA have multiple hit on the targets on its range so its considered bow's AoE pa...?

[infiniteeverlasting]

Well bow needs buff, but does'nt Million Storm PA have multiple hit on the targets on its range so its considered bow's AoE pa...?

not PP efficient, they need to lower the initial cost of activating million storm to 20 pp imo for it to be good enough.

[Punisher106]

Well bow needs buff, but does'nt Million Storm PA have multiple hit on the targets on its range so its considered bow's AoE pa...?

I kind of completely overlooked that. It's a huge PP sink, though. I only have it at 1, so I hope to get a higher leveled version. It does... okay damage, but there could be room for improvement.

[D-Inferno]

I think the biggest issue with top play is all the latency stupidity and the like. How much one can chain kill/dash/load quickly is determined by connection (idk if this is actually an issue for most JP players, but I recall hearing some not being able to chain as well). Not to mention one has to "client hunt" often.

As for dashing, I personally am not a fan of it, considering this game's slow weapon switch menu (which still needs to be faster), and having to mash the d-pad/ect every second. It's true it does add depth, but I think SEGA should "replace" it with another technique that doesn't require annoying button presses, but at the same time adds a lot of depth. It does bother me that if they intend to keep dash exploits around, then why not fix Nikishi lagging clients... Speaking of which, that shit needs needs to be fixed in some way.

EDIT: Instead of nerfing Shunka, they could just nerf Fury Stance, and just PAs/skills on stuff that they feel would become too weak. S-Roll nerf needs to happen, although the problem really is that GU's tree design is garbage. A skill that is universal could take S-Roll's place, and hopefulyl make RA/GU / GU/RA as strong as RA/HU in raw ranged damage . RA/HU would still have that Partisan utility, but you wouldn't need to be forced to level HU all the way to 70 on a character you intended to be ranged dedicated if you want to do high damage. Same with Techer; Element Weak Hit could use a boost/second skill to make FO/TE, but FO/BR can still have it's uses.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Instead of nerfing Shunka, they could just nerf Fury Stance...

Shunka will still be an outlier if this happened.

[GoldenFalcon]

I just want the real balance update to make it so more than 3 PA's are viable for each weapon

[Sizustar]

I just want the real balance update to make it so more than 3 PA's are viable for each weapon

They have a six month plan to balance the whole game, so let's see what they do in the six month.

[Chdata]

RIP BR in Nab2, Amdu, TD1 and TD2 when this bullshit change rolls in.

You can still one hit a whole group of spawns with katana finish... unless they're nerfing that for some reason too.

Sega should replace weapon switch dashing with a skill, every point lets you perform a dash in succession.

[Rien]

You can still one hit a whole group of spawns with katana finish... unless they're nerfing that for some reason too.

Sega should replace weapon switch dashing with a skill, every point lets you perform a dash in succession.

We have enough sp sinks as-is

we don't need more

[Moocast]

Really never thought shunka needed a nerf after the recent buffs to the other classes, but if it makes everyone else shut the hell up with all the braver hate, I guess the nerf is a blessing in disguise.

If escape was reduced to 10 seconds at max SP, I think it'd be fine. Its just enough to pull out of combat and recover or revive someone and still get a few good hits in.

[Unnamed Player]

S-Roll nerf needs to happen
Nope, Gunner is already outclassed by Ranger a further nerf will make him even more useless than he already is.

[Sanguine2009]

as someone who plays gu/hu, even with the s roll nerf it will be fine. gunners main issue before we got s roll was not multipliers but PAs. s roll worked at the time as a (poorly balanced) sort of bandaid but did not address the real issue. now we have PAs to suit pretty much any situation and gu as a whole is far far more versatile than it was. it probably wont be as much of a face roll easy mode class as it is now but it will most certainly be a very solid class and as a whole be much better balanced overall.

[isCasted]

Nope, Gunner is already outclassed by Ranger a further nerf will make him even more useless than he already is.

Here:


I would've preferred that they remove S-Roll JA entirely and distribute its (Nerfed) damage bonus among other Gunner skills. Having to flip before every attack to avoid doing laughable damage is annoying.

I don't like that people only have one-sided thinking when it comes to certain things. They only think in numbers, think that balancing done in one step, and never think about actual playability of the class. TMG PAs are designed to work in combos (something you don't see with many weapons in this game), they are stylish, they are comfortable. If you throw away S-Roll they all become viable, but throwing away S-Roll doesn't mean throwing away damage.

Same's with Shunka. "Shunka doesn't need nerf because Ra and Fo are OP" - what about other Katana PAs? People here complain about people who spam Shunka and yet they support it at the same time. Along with Shunka nerf SEGA will buff other Katana PAs, so more PAs will be viable at the same time.

Think about it.

[Chaoszshadow]

Yeah, I'm pretty angry over the Shunka nerf after what they did to every. other. class

but what pisses me off the most is that they thought Asagiri Rendan would prove useful for anything more than a dashing tool.

Yes, you could say it works like an uncharged Guilty Break, but it has delays, leaves you frozen on the spot while you attack UNLIKE shunka which could consistently chase a moving non-flinchable enemy, attacks with a smaller range than Guilty Break AND, god forbid, it's main source of damage a finisher attack with as small a range as the rest of it!

I can only hope they intend to leave Shunka as the katana go-to boss PA or else we're going to have PP issues worse than Backhand Smash spam.

(p.s we also need an increase on counter edge's range)
(p.p.s we also need a gekka zakuro latent that shoots waves like counter edge)
yep, hunter, fighter, and melee techer are so OP now......oh wait

[WildarmsRE5]

yep, hunter, fighter, and melee techer are so OP now......oh waityeap, sarcasm detected.

[Rakurai]

I wish they'd change Wand Gear to be a little more intuitive.

IE, ramp up the explosion damage greatly, but have the gear gauge go down with each explosion. Wand Lovers could retain its property of keeping the gauge full at all times to make it even more powerful.

[sayi50]

I spam Shunka Shunran all the time because it really is quite reliable. What did I do before I discovered Shunka? I've been using other PAs and making them combo with each other of course!

As much as I'm a Shunka spamming noob(at least in the eyes of this forum it seems) I'm glad the nerf is happening, now I actually have a legit reason to use other PAs and figure out the synergy between my PAs instead of Shunka-everything-on-sight-because-so-reliable.

As for Combat Escape, it feels too broken for me so I don't have it.

[Railkune]

I won't just blindly pretend I'm okay with this Shunka nerf, but it's something I can honestly be okay with. Under specific conditions of course. It'll all depend on how much the other Katana PA's are 'buffed'. I did fine without Shunka before, but I wasn't satisfied with the Katana half of the Braver class during that period of time. It seemed "weak" per say. Almost tedious. Oh I can combo up and mix-and-match the other PA's all day, but it really does get to a point where you think, "Hey, I wish I could drop more damage than this..." after looking at other classes mow things down like clockwork.

Maybe it's just me because I don't have the super decked out hyper gear other 'pro' players have. This could just be me needing to severely upgrade/max out gear etc. Regardless, I'm going to be placing my hopes that these other Katana PA buffs, are actually viable buffs.

[infiniteeverlasting]

I won't just blindly pretend I'm okay with this Shunka nerf, but it's something I can honestly be okay with. Under specific conditions of course. It'll all depend on how much the other Katana PA's are 'buffed'. I did fine without Shunka before, but I wasn't satisfied with the Katana half of the Braver class during that period of time. It seemed "weak" per say. Almost tedious. Oh I can combo up and mix-and-match the other PA's all day, but it really does get to a point where you think, "Hey, I wish I could drop more damage than this..." after looking at other classes mow things down like clockwork.

Maybe it's just me because I don't have the super decked out hyper gear other 'pro' players have. This could just be me needing to severely upgrade/max out gear etc. Regardless, I'm going to be placing my hopes that these other Katana PA buffs, are actually viable buffs.

Gekka zakura really needs more aoe and speed for it to be viable.
Stupid thing is that it doesn't work if you don't get the first hit in =.=. And it doesn't even gap close, but hopefully asigiri can make up for that, but the bigger problem is that asigiri takes too long so combo-ing asigiri then gekka is not efficient.

[Punisher106]

Katanas really need some sort of Facet Folia-like PA, to be honest.

[infiniteeverlasting]

Katanas really need some sort of Facet Folia-like PA, to be honest.

Dies the teleportation portion of asigiri have I frames?

[Punisher106]

Dies the teleportation portion of asigiri have I frames?

I think it does, but you're otherwise a sitting duck when you're slashing away, no iframes there. I like how the daggers have iframe-ridden PAs, which make you feel mobile and visceral.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Dies the teleportation portion of asigiri have I frames?

Don't know. It's a dash tool for at least 75% of braver players, so most of us didn't care to find out.




On the subject of combat excape, did anyone give any thought to its intended purpose? Knowing katana finish is at its strongest when used close to the expiration of katana combat, it seems like the intention was to prevent something random and unfortunate happening to the player.

Most would say "then play better, noob!", but you've also have to notice, katana combat puts you in kissing range of the target, which more often than not is the most dangerous range to be in with an enemy hit-stun proof. The ability's very own function increases the chances that you will not use finish successfully. It's not hard to imagine this is why combat escape exists.

I'm not saying a full 20 seconds of invincibility is absolutely necessary, but there are alternatives to reducing that power, while letting it serve its heavily-implied purpose, and I have two such ideas:

1- combat escape grants invincibility for the last 10 seconds (that's when the aura turns red) of katana combat.
2- damage reduction like someone mentioned earlier (50% bare minimum. I'd prefer something in the 75% neighborhood), but throw on super armor. Shock and stun immunity optional.




Also, on the subject of making more katana PAs have a more important place in all of our hearts, I was mulling around with an idea for kazan nadeshiko that can simultaneously make it useful (while not being another 'use this 90% of the time' type of attack) and add some layer of actual depth/player skill into katana gameplay, so here it is:

Instead of kazan restoring katana gear when used if it's active after a counter, kazan should completely deplete the active katana gear guage (note I said 'active', as in only after you counter while it is full) in order to execute the actual overhead slash attack much faster.

There you have a powerful AOE attack that cannot be spammed, and depends on the player filling their katana gear gauge, and countering in order to use it in the most effective fashion. Want to use it again? Fill your katana gear gauge, counter, and have 40pp on hand.

I'm sure the graphic designers would probably weep to see the ability they put work into animating as homage to that sword motion go into fast-forward, or even skipped entirely in order to make it practical for player use, though...

I originally intended to post this is the braver discussion thread, but ah well. Maybe if kazan discussion turns up.

[Sanguine2009]

you have 20 seconds of full god mode, you dont need i frames on your attacks

[Punisher106]

you have 20 seconds of full god mode, you dont need i frames on your attacks

with a 60+ second cooldown. Include that the auto-dashing you do during KC can really fuck up timing JAs, a lot of the time.

[Sanguine2009]

with a 60+ second cooldown. Include that the auto-dashing you do during KC can really fuck up timing JAs, a lot of the time.

so your complaining you actually have to avoid or block attacks sometimes instead of berserking enemies 100% of the time? its still waaaay more than any other class has and not having i frames on attacks seems like a fair trade off for being able to completely ignore attacks long enough to kill damn near anything

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

with a 60+ second cooldown. Include that the auto-dashing you do during KC can really fuck up timing JAs, a lot of the time.

90 seconds at the shortest.

Only if you're not used to it.

Still not a valid reason for wanting more I-frames.

[Punisher106]

so your complaining you actually have to avoid or block attacks sometimes instead of berserking enemies 100% of the time? its still waaaay more than any other class has and not having i frames on attacks seems like a fair trade off for being able to completely ignore attacks long enough to kill damn near anything

Lol, I'm used to being a Fighter, yes, but I can do Just Counters correctly, sometimes. I just find the dodge mechanics to be a bit delayed. Especially for RAs. I could be in the middle of a sneak Shooter while a Sil Dinian is jump attacking me while I'm in the middle of the skill. I go to double tap, and my character doesn't respond to it. He gets knocked down, gets up, THEN dodges. I just find it to be a bit unreliable.

[Yden]

Lol, I'm used to being a Fighter, yes, but I can do Just Counters correctly, sometimes. I just find the dodge mechanics to be a bit delayed. Especially for RAs. I could be in the middle of a sneak Shooter while a Sil Dinian is jump attacking me while I'm in the middle of the skill. I go to double tap, and my character doesn't respond to it. He gets knocked down, gets up, THEN dodges. I just find it to be a bit unreliable.

That's not because it's unreliable but because a lot of ranger skills don't allow you to cancel out of them with dodges so you're stuck waiting for the attack animation to end. That's why you can see attacks coming while say charging a statalite beam but still be unable to avoid said attack.

[Punisher106]

That's not because it's unreliable but because a lot of ranger skills don't allow you to cancel out of them with dodges so you're stuck waiting for the attack animation to end. That's why you can see attacks coming while say charging a statalite beam but still be unable to avoid said attack.

I suppose, but most PAs are able to be dodge cancelling, but the dodging in general, save, I guess, Mirage Escape, isn't reliable, because your character should be able to dodge the instant you double tap, not a second later. I've died hundreds of times, because of that, in the past.

[Yden]

I suppose, but most PAs are able to be dodge cancelling, but the dodging in general, save, I guess, Mirage Escape, isn't reliable, because your character should be able to dodge the instant you double tap, not a second later. I've died hundreds of times, because of that, in the past.

Well maybe for other classes but ranger really doesn't have many PAs you can cancel out of. The only rifle PA you can cancel out of to my knowledge is actually homing emission. Everything else, you have to at least wait til the attack animation goes off.

[IndigoNovember]

Asagiri Rendan's dash does have invincibility frames.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22727442
http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22727442

Skip to about 1:25 for the showcase to start.

[Macman]

I go to double tap, and my character doesn't respond to it. He gets knocked down, gets up, THEN dodges. I just find it to be a bit unreliable.
That's just double-tap being a piece of shit. Disable it and use a dedicated dodge button and that won't happen.

[KuroKanden]

it still doesn't change the fact that none of the other katanas PA can become a reliable replacement for shunka. as many have stated shunka was a VIABLE gap closer and had built-in home in ; something melee classes have craved for (and something that should be addressed for hu and fi) . Hatou requires strict positioning and is a real PP-killer. the dps in hatou itself is being able to execute it quickly in succession. in other words its not practical all the time. you were able to performs some gimmicks in ta with shunka that hatou could'nt. they're just different things.

not to mention with the current meta's pacing, PAs that were developed during the dinosaur age just are'nt working too well anymore. instead of nerfing things here and making changes to specific PAs and there they should just introduce PA crafting , that would solve alot of problems.

that being said i'm not too bothered with the upcoming nerf. it really would depend on how far they're willing to go with it, we'll have to wait and see.

[Meta77]

I actually liked it being so powerful. I could solo things on higher diffs when no one was around to help me.

[Shadowth117]

I actually liked it being so powerful. I could solo things on higher diffs when no one was around to help me.

This is why they nerfed it. Too many people use it as a crutch and can't imagine themselves doing difficult missions without it.

[Galax]

If the figure of 50% is accurate...

Halving Shunka's damage won't do anything. People that rely on Shunka will still rely on it, it'll just take one extra Shunka to make up for the damage that has become lacking.

In other words, shunka spammers will spam shunka twice as much because, as stated, nothing else is quite the same as Shunka; Nothing else is a viable replacement giving it's homing capabilities, fair damage, and [narrow] AoE potential.

Before one of you throws Asagiri at me, Asagiri is a glorified Mirage Escape with vulnerability to anything that does not flinch, has a shorter reach due to only a single dash, and much lower damage potential. Further, Shunka's homing is more reliable than Asagiris, to the point where I have actually had trouble diverting Shunka when it wants a specific target.

My entire Katana layout just barely takes two Katanas on my palette because it's Kazen > Kanran > Sakura on one and Shunka > Kanran > Sakura on the other, with little variance. I often carry a backup Katana with Fudou/Fudou/Fudou saved on it as my "OH SHIT MOB SWARM" button; As a BR/RA, this is my saving grace in soloing TAs. Nothing can harm me when everything is stunned.

That last line also sums up my playstyle. I went for a different take on the same endgame goal - kill everything so fast it can hardly spawn before dying. Except, replace "kill" with "stun", "knock down", or "flinch".

All in all Shunka nerfing by half will do nothing unless SEGA releases another PA that can reasonably substitute for it.

EDIT:


This is why they nerfed it. Too many people use it as a crutch and can't imagine themselves doing difficult missions without it.


Crutches like this exist as SEGA's fault, and while they should look in to fixing it, I really don't believe halving the power it has will do anything other than double how much weight is put on that crutch.

This is NOT Fire Emblem. There is no Cavalier who will promote to be better than Seth, no Mage you can promote to make up for that lost Dark Mage, and no My Unit you can reclass because your Cleric died. Shunka has no equivalent Photon Art currently.

[Kondibon]

If the figure of 50% is accurate...

Halving Shunka's damage won't do anything. People that rely on Shunka will still rely on it, it'll just take one extra Shunka to make up for the damage that has become lacking.

In other words, shunka spammers will spam shunka twice as much because, as stated, nothing else is quite the same as Shunka; Nothing else is a viable replacement giving it's homing capabilities, fair damage, and [narrow] AoE potential.

Before one of you throws Asagiri at me, Asagiri is a glorified Mirage Escape with vulnerability to anything that does not flinch, has a shorter reach due to only a single dash, and much lower damage potential. Further, Shunka's homing is more reliable than Asagiris, to the point where I have actually had trouble diverting Shunka when it wants a specific target.

My entire Katana layout just barely takes two Katanas on my palette because it's Kazen > Kanran > Sakura on one and Shunka > Kanran > Sakura on the other, with little variance. I often carry a backup Katana with Fudou/Fudou/Fudou saved on it as my "OH SHIT MOB SWARM" button; As a BR/RA, this is my saving grace in soloing TAs. Nothing can harm me when everything is stunned.

That last line also sums up my playstyle. I went for a different take on the same endgame goal - kill everything so fast it can hardly spawn before dying. Except, replace "kill" with "stun", "knock down", or "flinch".

All in all Shunka nerfing by half will do nothing unless SEGA releases another PA that can reasonably substitute for it.

I have to dissagree. First of all, no one wants shunka nerfed so hard that it's useless, but the damage is the main reason it's used in situations that it isn't actually appropriate for. Not all of Katana's other PAs are bad (and there getting bufed anyway), it's just that shunka is so far ahead of them in terms of damage output:usability, that no one uses anything else because shunka outperforms, or performs equally in situations that the other PAs should have an advantage.

I still think a pp cost increase and getting making the last swing one hit instead of two would be better than just halfing the damage though. :/

EDIT: To put it another way, shunka isn't THAT great, it just does so much damage that any shortcomings it has (The long animation for instance) don't matter anymore.

[Gardios]

Just to put into perspective how ridiculously powerful Shunka is right now: With a 50% damage reduction it would still be more powerful than Over End.

[GHNeko]

PA Crafting would be pretty boss. PP Cost, AoE Range, Animation Length, Dex Multiplier, Power Multiplier, Invulnerability Frames, and whatever other facets of move attributes I'm missing, falling into the M/D categories with %-based tweaks.

Seriously might be cool.

shit maybe gunblade could be really made worth using!

[Walkure]

Gunslash is still useful as a ranged weapon.

It's still odd; they seemed to be going with power creep as the option to "nerf" shunka, and yet they did a complete 180 about halfway through (arguably) doing just that.

[Galax]

I have to dissagree. First of all, no one wants shunka nerfed so hard that it's useless, but the damage is the main reason it's used in situations that it isn't actually appropriate for. Not all of Katana's other PAs are bad (and there getting bufed anyway), it's just that shunka is so far ahead of them in terms of damage output:usability, that no one uses anything else because shunka outperforms, or performs equally in situations that the other PAs should have an advantage.

I still think a pp cost increase and getting making the last swing one hit instead of two would be better than just halfing the damage though. :/

EDIT: To put it another way, shunka isn't THAT great, it just does so much damage that any shortcomings it has (The long animation for instance) don't matter anymore.

I never said Shunka should be nerfed to the point of being useless; Just that something should be done about it.

Yes, thank you for agreeing that the damage is the main reason it's misused.

I never said all the other Katana PAs are bad, I said they don't operate like Shunka does, which is another reason Shunka sees so much use - it chases mobs, you know?

You're basically agreeing with exactly what I'm saying. The only thing you haven't commented on is my assertion that half power shunka = 2x the shunka on Shunka Crutch Bravers [SCB for short].

Personally, I've tried all the Katana PAs; However, my playstyle is favorable to Shunka > Kanran, especially with block canceling Shunka when I need to move. On top of that, I sub Ranger, and use my Ranger weapon options just as often as my Braver options. My Rifle loadout is designed around keeping enemies on the ground with Grenade and Diffuse Shell, and Sat Cannon available for big numbers.

My launcher features Cosmos Breaker for it's amazing ability to keep mobs busy; While it's going off, I roll and let off a Divine Launcher to knock mobs over while CB approaches. My single-target effect is CB > Roll > Cracker Bullet, temporarily hitstunning my single target while CB is moving.

I understand the need for variance; I understand that other PAs are good.

What I also understand is that, DAMAGE NOTWITHSTANDING, Shunka operates in a way favorable to not only my playstyle, but to general use. The hits can flinch mobs, it homes in, and it has minor AoE capability. The only other Katana PA that comes close is Asagiri - it chases enemies, it can flinch, and it has a minor AoE. On paper, it's the same thing.

Except, with Asagiri, there's a load of hits in a fixed location. With Shunka, there's four hits, and each one has a homing dash to try and connect, granting Shunka priority over Asagiri by virtue of a larger chase range.

[Naizuya Tatzubani]

No matter how I look at it, there will never be a PA as good as Dante's Stinger. ;-; At least we got Rapid Slash. R-Right?

[Evangelion X.XX]

I only read the posts from page 10 onward; too lazy to read every post atm. Nevertheless, I would like to give my 2 cents to the thread.

In my opinion, I think the DPS output on Shunka is satisfactory. I think it's Combat Escape (20 sec invincibility) that is broken, especially when used in conjunction with Shunka: HUGE DPS with impunity.

Mindlessly abusing Shunka without Combat Escape is inadvisable since it can be severely punished, as seen from all of the dead Bravers in TD1/TD2.

Take away Combat Escape, and Braver players are sure to be more conscious to consider when to use what PA, not just Shunka, for any given situation/enemy.

[Rien]

Lol, I'm used to being a Fighter, yes, but I can do Just Counters correctly, sometimes. I just find the dodge mechanics to be a bit delayed. Especially for RAs. I could be in the middle of a sneak Shooter while a Sil Dinian is jump attacking me while I'm in the middle of the skill. I go to double tap, and my character doesn't respond to it. He gets knocked down, gets up, THEN dodges. I just find it to be a bit unreliable.

Press X to not die.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

In my opinion, I think the DPS output on Shunka is satisfactory.

Understatement.



Take away Combat Escape, and Braver players are sure to be more conscious to consider when to use what PA, not just Shunka, for any given situation/enemy.

That's not going to change how most people abuse shunka at all.

People aren't invincible shunkaing all the time as is.

Take away escape, and you change how they play 1/5th of the time at best assuming KC is used on cooldown.

[btw-Niji]

To be honest, you're dumb if you use Combat Escape for uninterrupted Shunka spam.

You should be using Katana Combat to clear spawns/deal Katana Finish damage on boss. Shunka is terrible for building up the hit count for Katana Finish. You're supposed to be using Hatou(boss) or Kanran(giant spawn) for that.

Not to mention most good players would probably press "Finish" button with over 10 secs remaining.

Anyway, I'm just tired of seeing people say "Bravers can turn off their brain for 20secs and Shunka", but nobody except the really bad/retarded players do that. Omg.

[Kondibon]

Not to mention most good players would probably press "Finish" button with over 10 secs remaining.Why would you intentionally waste 9 seconds of extra damage?

[Z-0]

Because your huge spawn (eg: Wave 4 of Tower Defense) will die 9 seconds quicker.

[LordKaiser]

I hope SEGA gives Braver new PAs then just to compensate. I don't like most Katana's PAs other than Shunka exept 2 others, 1 of them being the starting PA of the game and the other is Sakura's Xtrike XD

[Lostbob117]

I hope SEGA gives Braver new PAs then just to compensate. I don't like most Katana's PAs other than Shunka exept 2 others, 1 of them being the starting PA of the game and the other is Sakura's Xtrike XD

Why would you need a compensate? Braver as it is current has everything in it's class and needs to be nerfed, there is no reason to give it anything else.

[Sanguine2009]

personally i would like to see bows be used more(and be worth using more), when braver first came out you had to use both katana and bow to be optimal as they covered different situations. as it is now it feels like 70%+ of bravers forget they can even use bows to cover things katanas cant do and its my hope the shunka nerf helps change that a bit

[Z-0]

There's nothing that bow can do that Katana can't. Bow's only real use is to help another lane in Tower Defense, as Master Shoot has infinite range and Last Nemesis has enough to cover that sort of distance.

[Kondibon]

Because your huge spawn (eg: Wave 4 of Tower Defense) will die 9 seconds quicker.That makes sense. I was thinking in the context of a PSE burst or boss fight I guess.

[WildarmsRE5]

That's just double-tap being a piece of shit. Disable it and use a dedicated dodge button and that won't happen.http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/9e/9ee1cfb8a4fc259d6ead995189273b85f059c4773614283a94 553ef7363dffc7.jpg

people use Double Tapping? I have mine disabled since day 2 of playing.

is it weird if I assigned the Dodge Key to Shift and the weapon action to C?

[Sanguine2009]

There's nothing that bow can do that Katana can't. Bow's only real use is to help another lane in Tower Defense, as Master Shoot has infinite range and Last Nemesis has enough to cover that sort of distance.

which is exactly the problem, bows need some buffs/new PAs/something but as long as we have shunka in its current state even with buffs there is not alot bows could do without becoming ridiculously broken. i see this as the first step toward making them more useful again rather than the complete solution

[sayi50]

I already started changing my combos to prepare myself for the Shunka nerf. Right now, I'm going with Step Attack far away >JA into Hatou > Asagiri > Sakura. It lets me start the fight with damage, close in and deal more damage. My only problem is not being able to guard cancel Sakura so far but I'll figure something out.

Also what I'd love to see from the bows is Banishing Arrow not disappearing when I change weapons. I mean come on, when I solo, I'd like to go Banish > Hatou > Asagiri > Sakura and just watch that boss take damage. Though if that was possible, there would be no point in nerfing Shunka because Banish > Shunka would win anyways.

[Natsu Nem]

I feel like bow BRs echo of that of pre-sroll GUs. Both are niche boss killers with unremarkable mobbing capability. Hell, I barely even take out my bow outside of bosses and use a bio rifle and vibrace launcher for mobbing instead. It reminds me of when it was better to take out a gunslash and Additional Bullet rather than taking out my TMGs and annoyingly juggle mobs with ER. There are some changes I feel bow really needs.

Reduce the initial pp cost of Million Storm. At a hefty price of 35 pp, this is not sustainable for mobbing unless you have multiple mobs dying next to you for pp, a Ketos Proi primed, or an active Rapid Shoot in its triple shot phase. God help you if something hits you out of it or you have to reposition yourself.

Properly calibrate the damn bow projectiles to the TPS reticule. The projectiles are off center, hovering to the bottom left of the cursor. Launchers also suffer from this but bows are affected more because they require more precision. At 0 degrees, the offset is small but it gets really severe when approaching 45 degrees then lessens when approaching 90 degrees.

Give Nemesis super armor. This feels like using a Namegid while your feet is covered in cement while you pray something doesn't flick your ass. At least with Over End, it goes off if you manage to live through it. Nemesis, you have to successfully land a delayed shot using an uncalibrated reticule(if lock on isn't available) onto a sometimes erratically moving weak point while praying not to be interrupted by something jabbing its cock into your eye.

[Vampy]

The way the game is now outside of the meta shunka is used stupidly that was poor design by sega. I do feel it can be as powerful as is but super armor should be removed for one or potentially just the first hit gets it so people use it knowing they can not brute force their way through every hit.

Shunka in itself isn't bad when the right player uses it, but until there are more quests along the lines of time attacks where spawns and maps are set and not randomized this will continue to be an issue I get the meta will suffer a bit but I am sure you guys will figure out how to keep your times or improve upon them. Overall it's the games poor design outside of the meta they are trying to focus on. Sure they should see how one affects the other when buffed or nerfed but this is putting too much faith on sega.

Now for triple and quad dashing after you learned it for me personally it feels the same sure you cover distance faster, but I don't think about it at all I put little mental effort in to it maybe you do but I feel it is more down to muscle memory. I feel quad dashing should be something you should be relying on to have fun in this game. I wish sega put the effort in to making smarter AI make me feel like I worked for it rather than memorizing spawns and such.

[Arksenth]

Good. Hopefully this will make everyone understand that Irumegido spam is the new PSO2 metagame. Honestly, since Irumegido came out, everyone should have switched over to FO/TE with a 50 Dark Weddle Park and a Dark Tree. It's just the most efficient way to kill things. I've been in enough TD runs where there's only like, three or four FOs shooting out Irumegido with PP Convert - too many trash parasite poor people Bravers and Gunners thinking that their class is still on top when it's just simply, factually not the case. The game has moved on.

The sooner everyone switches over to Irumegido Dark FO/TE, the sooner we can stop carrying all this dead weight.

[SakoHaruo]

This is great! Can't wait for PSO2: 2.0 Reload/Reboot/Remixed Edition.

[Vampy]

This is great! Can't wait for PSO2: 2.0 Reload/Reboot/Remixed Edition.

I personally would not mind if they fixed everything that was wrong with the first

[Bellion]

50 Dark Weddle Park.

Not Seimeikikami? o3o

You parasite o3o

Talis is better o3o

[Xaeris]

You know that Arksenth wouldn't dare lay hands upon a weapon that poors could afford.

[Arksenth]

Not Seimeikikami? o3o

You parasite o3o

Talis is better o3o

Rod actually does more damage than Talis, if you're skilled enough at using it.

I can't provide you with a video, but you're free to whisper me to party with me so I can show you how great I am.

[isCasted]

Not Seimeikikami? o3o

You parasite o3o

Talis is better o3o

Having to rethrow a card every time you want your Foie/Zan/Il Megid to hit new spawn that's located on the opposite side from you (or whatever high spot you can stay on) than last spawn says "hi".

[LonelyGaruga]

Having to rethrow a card every time you want your Foie/Zan

Yeah, no. Nobody does this to begin with. You wanna say something against Talis, get your facts straight first.

[Macman]

is it weird if I assigned the Dodge Key to Shift and the weapon action to C?

Probably not. Though I have my dodge and pick-up buttons binded to the sides of my mouse.

[Naizuya Tatzubani]

Like making the bosses more than damage sponges? :D

[Kantalope]

You know that Arksenth wouldn't dare lay hands upon a weapon that poors could afford.

Implying a 50 dark weddle park is expensive?

[Punisher106]

I think it's Combat Escape (20 sec invincibility) that is broken

If you're going to go on about how CE is OP because you have invulnerability, then I'll go on about how WB is overpowered because it greatly ramps up damage. KC is PERFECT for when you're in a pinch. It saved my ass so many times like in the Mantis part of Nab2 when I solo, and all of my NPCs died, as well as the Baize part of an abduction, when you have about 4 Cycloneahdas whacking at you while you're trying to destroy the giant friggin' bubble. No, I don't shunka spam in KC, I spam Kanran, despite my inability to get decent damage off of it. It's purely for hit counts. Hell, Final Nemesis can outdamage KC's finisher.

[Gardios]

If you're going to go on about how CE is OP because you have invulnerability, then I'll go on about how WB is overpowered because it greatly ramps up damage.

I hate to break it to you, but something isn't automatically not overpowered just because there's something else that's also overpowered.

[LordKaiser]

Why would you need a compensate? Braver as it is current has everything in it's class and needs to be nerfed, there is no reason to give it anything else.It still needs more interesting PAs because there's no much PAs for Braver Katana right now. Also they need to reduce the PP requirement of Million Storm and Fodou.

[isCasted]

Yeah, no. Nobody does this to begin with. You wanna say something against Talis, get your facts straight first.

Ugh...

I wanted to say that Il Megid works in same fashion as those techniques, you face same problems no matter how you put it. Whenever you have to target opposite direction you have to do almost twice as much movement with Talis compared to Rod, and it takes time that could've been used to do another cast.

I am not against Talis usage, I am against people thinking it's the only right way.

[milranduil]

Good. Hopefully this will make everyone understand that Irumegido spam is the new PSO2 metagame. Honestly, since Irumegido came out, everyone should have switched over to FO/TE with a 50 Dark Weddle Park and a Dark Tree. It's just the most efficient way to kill things. I've been in enough TD runs where there's only like, three or four FOs shooting out Irumegido with PP Convert - too many trash parasite poor people Bravers and Gunners thinking that their class is still on top when it's just simply, factually not the case. The game has moved on.

The sooner everyone switches over to Irumegido Dark FO/TE, the sooner we can stop carrying all this dead weight.

Good luck getting 5 runs ._.b

[btw-Niji]

I honestly don't think Arksenth has even did 4 runs yet lol

[GoldenFalcon]

Whenever you have to target opposite direction you have to do almost twice as much movement with Talis compared to Rod

I don't get it

[Kondibon]

I hate to break it to you, but something isn't automatically not overpowered just because there's something else that's also overpowered.That's not what he's saying. He's pointing out that weakbullet is also OP. That's a silly reason imo to defend combat escape, but he's not wrong.

[GHNeko]

It's the arguement of, "Well OPThing1 is OP, but OPThing2 is also OP. Don't get all up into a tizzy about OPThing1 when everyone and their mother is fine with OPThing2 and welcome it with open arms."

It's not a good defense for CE, but it puts perspective into play.

How can you be okay with something that is just as OP than the other thing of which you're trying to hit with a nerf stick?

That's assuming that both things are on the same level of being OP. I may not know RA all that well, or simply the game all that well, but I personally feel that WB, at the very worst, is on the same level, and at the best, is definitively better than CE in a general/overall sense and that people have grown accustomed to WB since it's been in since forever, but CE and other Braver things haven't been in for nearly as long so people are less accustomed and more prone to judgement.

But that's just my perspective.

BR in general is just under a brighter spot like than any other class lol.

[Alukard]

I hate to break it to you, but something isn't automatically not overpowered just because there's something else that's also overpowered.

Well, if you don't have anything else to do with your life and generally prefer hitting 2min on a monster that moves every 10seconds then be my guest and keep advocating, what you seem to suggest, how everything is op.

Edit: Keep your next post short please. I don't have all day to read your crap. Keep it short and precise aka be effective.

[Sacrificial]

Personally I hope it won't just stay with a shunka nerf, but that it will be the first stepping stone to properly balance a class again. Admit it, no one wants Br(or any class) to get back to the stone age. It sucked when the gs style was nerfed. It sucked when zonde style was nerfed. It sucks even more that two classes after two years are not rewarding(much) at all.
Ra's rebalance was a huge surprise in a good way and it shows Sega is willing to balance.(Eventhough it took 2 years coughcough)
I'm actually wondering if the nerf will be damage(raw power or JA stacking) or an increased pp consumption or both. I'm saying pp consumption based on the speculation that shunka's and fudou's value were swapped.

Also so much jabbing at each other's classes here.

Edit: What really bugs me most is that first gu was hated because it was too weak in mobbing with its main weapon. When the class was buffed it is hated for being too strong. Br was hated for the sakura endo spam only, giving not enough damage to ppls liking, Br got new Pa's and its hated for being too strong.

[Gardios]

Katana was weak mainly because its weapons were weak compared to the other weapon categories though.


Well, if you don't have anything else to do with your life and generally prefer hitting 2min on a monster that moves every 10seconds then be my guest and keep advocating, what you seem to suggest, how everything is op.

Edit: Keep your next post short please. I don't have all day to read your crap. Keep it short and precise aka be effective.

It's quite obvious that elaborating to you is pointless, so I'll just take the high road.

[mctastee]

Let's just go back to when the level cap was 30, there were no 10 stars, and all the classes felt kinda weak.

[Chdata]

Furthermore, I am not bullying Gradios. Bullying would imply I am doing it for the sake of harassing him. I'm not. I barely told him how his concept of "this is and that is op" is wrong and people in this thread, that actually have records and therefore obviously understand the game mechanics way better than him, already stated multiple times that it's not true. That's like we'd be talking about climate change and a tea party member says scientists are wrong, we can't manipulate the weather.

Gardios said that other things being OP doesn't necessarily mean some things are.

I don't see what's illogical about this statement. He's saying that comparing different things is a non-sequitir.

And his next post which was referring to the time that 6* katanas literally had the most s-atk of any katana, making them weaker than weapons of other classes that already had multiple 10*'s existing.



What made SROLL op? It was drastically more damage than anything else at the time and easy to do. What made SHUNKA op? It was drastically more damage than anything else at the time and easy to do. What makes weak bullet op? Being able to instagib Titled boosted bosses. What makes CE OP? 20s of invulnerability makes surviving so much more viable than a lot of things.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

If you're going to go on about how CE is OP because you have invulnerability, then I'll go on about how WB is overpowered because it greatly ramps up damage.

Many things players have access to in this game are OP. CE, WB, SRoll, Shunka, Ilmegid to name a few.


No, I don't shunka spam in KC, I spam Kanran, despite my inability to get decent damage off of it. It's purely for hit counts. Hell, Final Nemesis can outdamage KC's finisher.

There is hatou for that... and your inability to do damage is a mystery of the ages.

[Chdata]

Edit: Too many double negatives olo


"something isn't automatically not overpowered just because there's something else that's also overpowered."

Just because WB is op, doesn't mean CE is not op. I still don't see anything illogical about this statement. And that's after reading it backwards the first time.

In any case, both WB and CE are op.

Also punisher, Final Nemesis can't one hit a group of like 10 goldas, while CF can. They have different applications.

[Chdata]

What are those quotation marks for? You didn't quote me, that's nowhere in my post. My post is perfectly fine.

Edit: Good thing u removed that, huh?

Edit2: Didn't even get ur first post in lol

Edit3: In the end, gardios point is that both kc and wb are overpowered. That's where my crticism starts to begin with.

I quoted you saying


Gardios point is that wb is overpowered and therefore kc is too.

And I was misreading Gardios's point like so:


"something isn't automatically not overpowered just because there's something else that's also overpowered."

e.g., Just because WB is overpowered, doesn't mean CE is.

Which is the opposite of saying both are op.


This is the exact opposite of saying something isn't automatically overpowered just because something else is overpowered...

Do you have a problem with me removing a statement I made that was incorrect?

In the end, you're still disagreeing with Gardios's point that both skills are OP. I think they're both OP, why don't you?

Even I'm open to questioning whether or not things commonly considered OP, are OP, or are "standard", and that PSO2JP's standard is just that we "should" be able to instagib bosses and instaclear huge groups of mobs and not have to worry about learning how to dodge things in this game and have a single skill from one class that allows you to survive all sorts of things that many of the other classes would easily die to or have to spend time dodging otherwise.

And thus anything that isn't considered "OP" is actually "below standards; uselessly weak".

Whether or not something is OP depends on what your standards are. I think it's OP to be able to insta gib bosses, or to not have to learn their attack patterns at all because you can tank them forever with guld mila or kill bosses before combat escape dies. Luther was pretty refreshing content to me cause of stuff like that.

I don't mind the standard of instakilling mobs all the time though. Il Megid is still silly because it mitigates most of the need to even aim things.

[Alukard]

In the end, you're still disagreeing with Gardios's point that both skills are OP. I think they're both OP, why don't you?

Alright, we are making progress, even though we still disagree in some minor details. I already elaborated this, but for the sake of it i'll do it again. Just a quick note previous to that though, you barely said you don't think it's op and ask me for my reasoning. I'd be adequate to reason your opinion, too.

You know why lobbyists are unremoveable as advisors for the governments? I mean, it's obvious, lobbyists have their own interest and can have negative influence. However there is an huge advantage of having lobbyists, simply because in their fields of expertise, they are unmatched. They know best about those specific matters. Still, there are also independant scientists that, backed by evidence, are listened to when it comes to important decisions.

Why did I start with that? Well, here is the analogy. There are a bunch of TA'ers in this thread that already stated how, for instance, shunka isn't op and how the game developed in a very favourable way. I'd recommend to go back and read z-o's posts and elsofors posts.

[SPOILER-BOX]
Well yes, of course, but it still ruins what people have worked on so far.

In my opinion, Shunka Shunran never needed a nerf. It fit perfectly well with the pace of the game and how it worked, but I guess I'm not playing the same game as you guys.

It's funny, because the top-tier metagame is much more balanced than you might think. RaBr and FoBr use Katana, HuTe is a very viable option (hell, GuTe was before Bibras Bow happened), Aiming Shot and Thrillsplosion see use, Rifle and Launcher both use more than 3 PAs each, rather than whatever the cookie-cutter best is, Bravers use more than just Shunka (they even use bow, believe it or not), RaHu uses Partisan (and so does anything that has access to it, actually) and everything is just hella creative and varied.

Have you guys ever stopped to consider that the problem lies not in the attacks, but how the game is designed? The longer quests are simply just random spawns laid out on random maps, the more these problems will arise, because the best thing to use will almost always be one thing.

edit: Also, those "stupid dash exploits" are what make the game fun. The game is braindead easy without them and requires extremely little thought.

[/SPOILER-BOX]

Now, those ta'ers may be very well considered as lobbyists. They surely have their own interest, but the record holders are still objectivley the people that understand the game mechanics and the metagame the best. If you'd bother reading what he says, you'd figure out that his reasoning is perfectly fine.

Now, let's come back to the analogy. You may consider me as an independant. I'm not a pso2 ta'er, though I am interested in it and I've been following it the last couple months. I myself hold nearly every record in psobb, and I used to TA psu in it's early days. Within the last 4months I've played around 800h pso2. All these 3 games are similarly designed in endgame. Endgame in BB and PSU was all about breezing through the spawns as fast as possible and there never really was a boss that could withstand long against well playing teams with endgame gear. Pso2 is very similar in that regard. Now based on this, I conclude that sega, in a way, either intentionally designs their pso games like this, or this design is a result of a certain aspect they were aiming at (i.e keeping the game beginner friendly, which bb was definetley not). Anyway, now judging from the previous games and the commentary of the current record holders, the conclusion draws near that the current game design and specifically the mentioned PAs/skills are not imbalanced.

Edit: I wrote this before you edited your post, which I haven't read yet either and I will do now.

[Chdata]

Now, those ta'ers may be very well considered as lobbyists. They surely have their own interest, but the record holders are still objectivley the people that understand the game mechanics and the metagame the best. If you'd bother reading what he says, you'd figure out that his reasoning is perfectly fine.

Endgame in BB and PSU was all about breezing through the spawns as fast as possible and there never really was a boss that could withstand long against well playing teams with endgame gear. Pso2 is very similar in that regard.

Yeah, this is what I mean by "depending on what standard". So we can agree on that.

By that standard, there are many things in this game that are just weak due to poor damage or bad attack range. (This statement is sort of analogous to saying some things are overpowered. Rather than being overpowered, they're powerful and other things are too weak in comparison).

I consider TA is its own standard where even things like HuFo become viable (at least in VH taco it was at one point, dunno if it still is in SH) just for different ways to kill specific configurations of spawned enemies. TA is a lot different from AQ/EQs where spawns are random and you have to optimize killing not-preset spawns over ones you can memorize.

Though even between that standard and a standard where it'd be normal to spend some time and effort doing things, you can still categorize things like

Instakill standard: Shunka/GM/CE/WB/etc are Normal damage | Random PAs like rage dance or tsukimi or reverse tap are marginally useless or weak and don't even fit the games standards

Slower standard: Shunka/etc are OP | Random PAs are balanced (weaker than the OP stuff) | Technically, the PAs I listed would be weaker than stuff we consider balanced now, like fighter PAs

Either way I consider it meh if there are a lot of PAs are inferior to just one. Like how Il Megid hits harder and hits more enemies than any other pre-existing dark tech, aside from namegid for bossing.

Or how almost any tech is not viable unless you have mastery in it... ;c

(Aside from things like, grants to hit switches or zondeel or il zan etc).

[Dragwind]

Any further inflammatory posts directed towards other members or off topic discussion will result in warnings, so let's keep this on-topic folks.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It appears it wasn't worth discussing...

[Chdata]

Altogether, game has a lot of things that are unbalanced.

Sounds like every game I've played so far.

(Actually, TF2 has pretty good standards. I rarely see discussion over things being OP.)

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Altogether, game has a lot of things that are unbalanced.

Sounds like every game I've played so far.

(Actually, TF2 has pretty good standards. I rarely see discussion over things being OP.)

It's just that SEGA's... implied method seemed to be 'make everyone OP and attempt to balance later content to that standard' until now.

A method that almost reminds me of PvP in the wrath of the lich king WoW expansion, where everyone was capable of damn-near instantly killing anyone (50%+ HP damage) with their own timed burst. In team play, that meant the meta shift to 'who can execute their game-ending burst combo first'.

Though in both cases, we can't say for sure if it was intentional...


Either way, having such a huge, well-defined gap between the OP, and the not OP while they address a little at a time instead of sweeping changes to the largest outliers all at once serves to make people more and more vocal about what is blatantly imba.

[LonelyGaruga]

I wanted to say that Il Megid works in same fashion as those techniques, you face same problems no matter how you put it.

Except you don't, because it homes. With Foie and Zan, precise aiming is the point of the tech, to get the most hits, whether it be targets or hitzones. With Ilmegid, it does that for you. It's almost as easy to use off a Talis as actual auto-target techs, and in some ways easier off a Talis than a Rod, because throwing a Talis toward a group of spawns will result in Ilmegid hitting them sooner, acquiring more hits per cast.


Whenever you have to target opposite direction you have to do almost twice as much movement with Talis compared to Rod

No you don't. Where do you get that idea?


and it takes time that could've been used to do another cast.

Yeah, and if it doesn't one-shot or fill your PB in situations where a Talis Ilmegid would have, then you're wasting time using a Rod when you could have been using a Talis.


I am not against Talis usage, I am against people thinking it's the only right way.

I agree, but Rod's virtues lie in different areas, as do Talis' weaknesses. With Ilmegid's case, Talis generally wins out. Talis' "issues" with usability are minor at best and easily circumvented by thinking about where to throw it instead of auto-piloting.

[Alukard]

Yeah, this is what I mean by "depending on what standard". So we can agree on that.

By that standard, there are many things in this game that are just weak due to poor damage or bad attack range. (This statement is sort of analogous to saying some things are overpowered. Rather than being overpowered, they're powerful and other things are too weak in comparison).

I consider TA is its own standard where even things like HuFo become viable (at least in VH taco it was at one point, dunno if it still is in SH) just for different ways to kill specific configurations of spawned enemies. TA is a lot different from AQ/EQs where spawns are random and you have to optimize killing not-preset spawns over ones you can memorize.

Though even between that standard and a standard where it'd be normal to spend some time and effort doing things, you can still categorize things like

Instakill standard: Shunka/GM/CE/WB/etc are Normal damage | Random PAs like rage dance or tsukimi or reverse tap are marginally useless or weak and don't even fit the games standards

Slower standard: Shunka/etc are OP | Random PAs are balanced (weaker than the OP stuff) | Technically, the PAs I listed would be weaker than stuff we consider balanced now, like fighter PAs

Either way I consider it meh if there are a lot of PAs are inferior to just one. Like how Il Megid hits harder and hits more enemies than any other pre-existing dark tech, aside from namegid for bossing.

Or how almost any tech is not viable unless you have mastery in it... ;c

(Aside from things like, grants to hit switches or zondeel or il zan etc).

Yes, there are certainly different standards. Isn't this whole debate about figuring out which standard is essential and which is less important? That's the whole reason I brought the lobbyist analogy up. My argument is, as long as their reasoning is transparent to us ( which it is, thanks to z-o) and as long as there isn't any argument that would debunk w/e they say, we have a group of people that can actually verify which standard is essential and which isn't. In the end you may say that we are basically trusting those people more on these kind of decisions than an average person.

I don't think your example of PA's being too weak is valid, though. It certainly isn't supported by a "TA standard" either. The importance of a PA is not necessarily decided by it's damage output, but also by its utility. Furthermore, a huge bottleneck in pso2 is the limit of weapons you can use at once. 6 slots are not sufficient, considering how many weapons and PA's you could utilize during a run. It adds a, rather artifical, layer of strategy. In the end, whether a PA is useful or not depends on the situation. Sega failed to create an environment where you'd get into situations that would justify the use of other PAs aside from the used ones. Depending on the situation you could prefer a weaker hiting and faster striking ( e.g on single target low hp enemies) PA, a ranged attack, a gap closer, aoe, dps burst etc.

I've noticed this within the first couple hundred hours. While the combat is very well designed, the environment is very poorly designed. The environment being random generated maps, random spawns, poorly designed AI etc. If you ask me, Sega would do way better working on the environment instead of tweaking the combat just to accustom it to a miserably designed environment.

People are free to express their opinion, and so are other people free to criticise said opinion. Free speech 101, if you will. I am rude, yes, but at least there is constructive criticism in my posts unlike other people like big olaf, who hasn't said anything useful about this matter yet.

[Chdata]

I just don't like talis because you have to throw a new one every few seconds.

Of course, my demon talis just isn't grinded yet and I only have 1.4m so...


The importance of a PA is not necessarily decided by it's damage output, but also by its utility.

I already mentioned utility. e.g., il megid vs other darks, zondeel, grants, CE vs final nemesis. Playing HuFo in TA. Though I think at some point I edited out something where I actually mentioned some attacks having poorer target areas/attack range than others.

When I said PAs being too weak, I was trying to look at PAs that are both weak and don't have a good attack range. Why use tsukimi to launch something into the air when you could've killed it? Why use fudou instead of kanran for anything?

As for the argument of essentiality, I wasn't part of that argument till now. Objectively speaking, of course you get the most benefit from whatever causes the most enemies to die the fastest as much as possible. You lose a lot of gaming elements (e.g., a lot of elements are no advocated by that - such as needing to learn boss patterns) from that, but I don't really mind that myself.

I recently started playing RaHu, and it's like I'm playing an entirely different game because as any other class, I don't have to try at all to mitigate damage. It's also a lot slower and clunkier, despite the whole one-shotting multiple spawns in AQ via cluster bullet thing.

Fo -> mirage escape and never get hit.
Br -> Counter, CE, shunka's dash gives enough movement to keep me out of attacks
Gu -> I have guld mila, but even without, sroll is a lot of free invincibility frames
Fi -> Twin daggers block everything

[Alukard]

I already mentioned utility. e.g., il megid vs other darks, zondeel, grants, CE vs final nemesis. Though I think some point I edited out something where I actually mentioned some attacks having poorer target areas/attack range than others.

When I said PAs being too weak, I was trying to look at PAs that are both weak and don't have a good attack range.


Alright, we agree on that point then ( about the utility). Just that I mentioned it, doesn't mean you didn't mention it or even denied it. The whole point is about the environment creating the need to use certain PA's. That's the perspective I am trying to add in this conversation.

[Chdata]

So you guys are in favor of more non-randomized things like Cradle of Darkness or XQ?

[DoubleZero]

The only thing I want as a melee class is Shunka's ability to close the distance (quickly!) and do something before the ranged classes obliterate the mobs from relative safety. Even if the damage was nerfed, I'd still use Shunka because it gets me into battle faster than running.

Hell, most melee weapons have a PA they could use in this manner:
Sword - Guilty Break
Partisan - Assault Buster
Wire Lance - Grapple Charge
Knuckle - Straight Charge
Twin Dagger - Symphonic Drive (RIDER KIIIIICK)
Double Saber - Tornado Dance or Surprise Dunk
Gunslash - Rage Dance

I just want, as a HU or FI, to quickly get into range and swing a few times before the other classes bomb the mobs back to the stone age.

[Galax]

Since when do threads about Shunka getting a nerf become arguments about how to FO...

[Chdata]

Argument about what's OP or not -> Argument about OP things in other classes

[BIG OLAF]

unlike other people like big olaf, who hasn't said anything useful about this matter yet.

I can be plenty constructive, I just don't feel the need to be gracious to people like you. Pretty simple.

[Alukard]

So you guys are in favor of more non-randomized things like Cradle of Darkness or XQ?

I am heavily in favour of having more non-randomized quests. It would give the quests an identity. In other words, it would create the feeling of having more content available. Being able to memorize spawns would give people incentive to use different, better fitting and thus better optimized PA's. Players would know in which situation they are going to be instead of using a universal PA that fits in every situation ( i.e shunka, ilmegid etc), but isn't optimal at all. The disadvantage would be that it would make PSE Bursts practically impossible. So I'm actually for a mix of both, randomized and non-randomized quests. Not because I like PSE bursts, I really don't. But there are people that enjoy them.

[manthisis]

will shunka still be useful after the nerf?

[Kondibon]

will shunka still be useful after the nerf?Unless they change the way it actually works or make it weaker than Sakura End yes.

[Chdata]

I am heavily in favour of having more non-randomized quests. It would give the quests an identity. In other words, it would create the feeling of having more content available. Being able to memorize spawns would give people incentive to use different, better fitting and thus better optimized PA's. Players would know in which situation they are going to be instead of using a universal PA that fits in every situation ( i.e shunka, ilmegid etc), but isn't optimal at all. The disadvantage would be that it would make PSE Bursts practically impossible. So I'm actually for a mix of both, randomized and non-randomized quests. Not because I like PSE bursts, I really don't. But there are people that enjoy them.

I suppose that would be cool. I'm more of being in favor of different / harder game modes altogether. Whether it be randomized or set. Heck, throw in non-moving enemies like those gum anemone things or whatever they are, but it's a gu wonda. Heck, make gu wondas be non-moving statue type things that spawn as a wall, then they'd be cool.

I mean... limiting everyone to one or no revives in a 4/4 quest already asks for loads of unused things to be practiced again (like dodging!). But that'd further split elitist and casual players.

[manthisis]

Sorry if this sounds nooby, but what's wrong with spamming shunka on a single target? It seems to have a much more reliable, high damage output than any of the other PAs. Against multi targets, IK Hatou can do pretty well and also for charging the finishing move of katana combat is through Kanran.

[Ciel~Homura]

Sorry if this sounds nooby, but what's wrong with spamming shunka on a single target? It seems to have a much more reliable, high damage output than any of the other PAs. Against multi targets, IK Hatou can do pretty well and also for charging the finishing move of katana combat is through Kanran.

People insist that its too OP. That's the problem.
There is nothing wrong with shunka shunran itself.

[Nitro Vordex]

Sorry if this sounds nooby, but what's wrong with spamming shunka on a single target? It seems to have a much more reliable, high damage output than any of the other PAs. Against multi targets, IK Hatou can do pretty well and also for charging the finishing move of katana combat is through Kanran.
It's a mega crutch. Plus people seem to be generally terrible with it, I.E. always dying mid shunka. Shunka Bravers are bravers who use nothing but Shunka all day, simply because it does damage, and they do it recklessly.

[manthisis]

It's a mega crutch. Plus people seem to be generally terrible with it, I.E. always dying mid shunka. Shunka Bravers are bravers who use nothing but Shunka all day, simply because it does damage, and they do it recklessly.

Ah, so do "good" bravers shunka while using shift to stay alive + using other PAs when needed?

[infiniteeverlasting]

Ah, so do "good" bravers shunka while using shift to stay alive + using other PAs when needed?

basically.

The thing is shunka does too many things at once so most people just spam it, even though it doesn't do everything with 100% efficiencey it still does it at a 50% efficiencey and up, which is good enough for the spammer.

[LordKaiser]

Shunka Lv.16 power is 797 with a dex mod of 120% and a PP cost of 30. I say that 597 should be the minimum power that it should nerfed. If it gets lowered to 497 or less people will complain. 697 would be ideal...

[Rakurai]

I think it needs to be nerfed by 50% at the bare minimum, honestly. Even in that state, it would still be stronger per hit then almost every other katana PA.

Lowering the damage by such a small amount wouldn't make anyone bother with the other katana PAs, since presently, its effective damage multiplier is around 4700% if you land all of the hits, versus the 1500% of Hatou Rindou, which is the next strongest PA.

[Kondibon]

Shunka Lv.16 power is 797 with a dex mod of 120% and a PP cost of 30. I say that 597 should be the minimum power that it should nerfed. If it gets lowered to 497 or less people will complain. 697 would be ideal...I'd rather they increase the pp cost (and maybe make the last swing hit once instead of twice). It does too many things to just cost 30 pp. Just decreasing the damage alone would either leave it around where it is, or end up making it too weak, there's not much it can do.

[infiniteeverlasting]

I'd rather they increase the pp cost (and maybe make the last swing hit once instead of twice). It does too many things to just cost 30 pp. Just decreasing the damage alone would either leave it around where it is, or end up making it too weak, there's not much it can do.

Increase it to 50pp so it works like namegid.

[Miyuki_Kamiko]

people that often hold records usually exploit the game and will defend any exploits they may find

as far as shunka goes it is over powered it does more damage than over end in a shorter amount of time with less risk cough you cant cancel the first 2 useless hits of overend and shunka also hit multiple targets and gaps closes in on enemies for a low pp cost

shunka is not a bad skill it just is way to powerful

[Natsu Nem]

-Keep Shunka's total damage the same
-Shift damage to the final slash(Strikes 1 and 2 do 75% of a Sakura Endo's total damge. Strike 3 does 125% of a Sakura Endo's total damage. The lost damage from the previous strikes are added to the final slash's damage.)
-Remove its super armor
-Reduce initial pp cost to 25 pp. Additional strikes will consume 5 pp. The final strike will consume an additional 10 pp.
-Increase the delay between slash start up frames to one second.

[Z-0]

Exploits are what make games fun, though.

People getting defensive about "morals" and what's "right" need to take a chill pill and remember that games are for fun. . _.b

[gigawuts]

Exploits are what make games fun, though.

People getting defensive about "morals" and what's "right" need to take a chill pill and remember that games are for fun. . _.b

this

also, I still think the only nerfs shunka needs are longer charge time (about .8s I guess) and possibly trimming it down to just 2 slashes (or charging 1 pulse for 2 slashes and charging to the second pulse for all four)

I'm okay with it hitting hard, I'm just not okay with it hitting hard so quickly so you can spam it at the drop of a hat (but before the hat hits the ground)

that would differentiate the charged multislash and the uncharged but faster single slash, which is what people really want half the time (also increase the uncharged slash by 10% to make up for the lost charged skill damage bonus)

[HIT0SHI]

Games are indeed for fun,
but when you reach the point in where you obliterate everything by 1 shooting everything, not allowing for the rest of the players to even land a hit on the enemy and quadoctopus-dashing leaving everyone in the dust on top of that... then we got a problem. :argh:

[Z-0]

That's just it though, that's the way I enjoy the game with my friends. Yes, we obliterate everything in one hit, leave people "in the dust" (although not really because we just play with each other), but we take that and work around it, and at the end of the day it makes for a very enjoyable experience, probably moreso than if we didn't do these things.

Unfortunately, I find that people only see the game they want to see in their heads, so if anything deviates from that, they feel the need to call it out and unnecessarily hate on certain mechanics and players, when a lot of it isn't really a problem in the grand scheme of things.
I used to do the same about a year ago, but I just realised video games don't work like that.

We'd all like to see the game become what we want it to, but that's not really possible, and anything done will always have positive and negative reactions, and neither one is really "right".
I mean, because of how I enjoy the game and how I play it, I feel Shunka is not necessary for a nerf in the slightest, and doing it is a step backwards really, but not everyone sees it like that because of how they want the game to be.

There's a lot of arguments about "dumb people defending dumb things", but you should realise those people aren't dumb, nor are they defending dumb things, they just have a different outlook on the game than you.

[HIT0SHI]

Just to clarify, I don't hate players doing this things nor do despise them for it. It's just really baffles me as what the game has turned into "Samurai Vergil Dash Solid: The Game".

By no means aren't players allowed to do this as it is actually part of the game, but most often than not you'll have to be the same class and using the same "exploits" to even keep up with everyone.
I don't have that much a problem because I'm a ranged character, but the whole dashing and everyone else not being able keep up, not to mention my damage not even close to as efficient as a Braver Katana player spamming the same PA is rather annoying so to speak.

[GoldenFalcon]

I mean, because of how I enjoy the game and how I play it, I feel Shunka is not necessary for a nerf in the slightest, and doing it is a step backwards really, but not everyone sees it like that because of how they want the game to be.

Sure, losing damage output in any shape or form does rock the boat a little

But
Adaptation is also a good thing. I want the game to reward more playstyles.

[Kaori]

Just to clarify, I don't hate players doing this things nor do despise them for it. It's just really baffles me as what the game has turned into "Samurai Vergil Dash Solid: The Game".

By no means aren't players allowed to do this as it is actually part of the game, but most often than not you'll have to be the same class and using the same "exploits" to even keep up with everyone.
I don't have that much a problem because I'm a ranged character, but the whole dashing and everyone else not being able keep up, not to mention my damage not even close to as efficient as a Braver Katana player spamming the same PA is rather annoying so to speak.

ii believe ppl who exploits the game normally play among themselves , they had their own tmpa/mpa , taco pt. which dont involve any pubs :S
and whats more who doesnt want fast taco anyways... :/

[HIT0SHI]

I see this stuff everywhere... In TAs, AQs, MPAs EQs, etc so it's not like its rare or uncommon, its waaaaay to common.
Everyone and their mother is doing this and of course fast is good, but some classes can't dash for mobility or at least like melee users can.
They WILL be left in the dust and by the time they get there, all the Braver would be doing like 20k per hit on non-weakspots to every enemy with a ridiculously large AoE killing everything on there path is less than 1/2 of a second.

[Miyuki_Kamiko]

Exploits are what make games fun, though.

People getting defensive about "morals" and what's "right" need to take a chill pill and remember that games are for fun. . _.b

quad dashing you should try it on vita sometimes oh wait you cant do it on vita because its not possible so how would a vita player have this type of fun?

[Chdata]

If quad dashing were a serious exploit, SEGA would have patched it already.

We already have evidence that SEGA pays attention to exploits and deals with them, look at Nab I taco.

I'm not as serious about TA stuff like Ignition, but I'm still in the group of "wants to do things fast, wants to do things efficiently". I'm just too poor to buy 100 Atk units and use the lowest gfx settings and care about saving 1 minute per TACO.

I just like seeing large numbers, and the quad dash mechanic is fun to perform.

If my computer weren't capable of it? I'd suck it up and stop crying about it, because it's still fun to watch people do in TAs. I imagine TAs would look a hell of a lot more boring if it weren't for that. And if I were condemning it, I'm condemning the chance I get a better computer and can do it.

[gigawuts]

That's just it though, that's the way I enjoy the game with my friends. Yes, we obliterate everything in one hit, leave people "in the dust" (although not really because we just play with each other), but we take that and work around it, and at the end of the day it makes for a very enjoyable experience, probably moreso than if we didn't do these things.

Unfortunately, I find that people only see the game they want to see in their heads, so if anything deviates from that, they feel the need to call it out and unnecessarily hate on certain mechanics and players, when a lot of it isn't really a problem in the grand scheme of things.
I used to do the same about a year ago, but I just realised video games don't work like that.

We'd all like to see the game become what we want it to, but that's not really possible, and anything done will always have positive and negative reactions, and neither one is really "right".
I mean, because of how I enjoy the game and how I play it, I feel Shunka is not necessary for a nerf in the slightest, and doing it is a step backwards really, but not everyone sees it like that because of how they want the game to be.

There's a lot of arguments about "dumb people defending dumb things", but you should realise those people aren't dumb, nor are they defending dumb things, they just have a different outlook on the game than you.

I would think this mindset wouldn't be about using and reusing the same old exploits, because after long enough they become features. Instead you should be hoping for fixes/adjustments alongside new releases, so you can look for new things to use.

Nobody runs around showing off the same puzzle they've know the solution to for two years, they find new puzzles to solve. Old exploits get fixed, you find new ones to use.

I don't see why you're saying people were saying they wanted it to be X and it wasn't going to be X and should have accepted it for being what it was, and now you're saying you're used to it being Y and now that they're changing it you dislike it. Surely the pendulum swings both ways.

[Lostbob117]

It still needs more interesting PAs because there's no much PAs for Braver Katana right now. Also they need to reduce the PP requirement of Million Storm and Fodou.

You are describing every melee weapon ever.

[Macman]

Dash exploits are retarded. Just make run speed faster, Sega. I don't want to rely on macros or cramp my fingers constantly swapping weapons and doing LAs or whatever the fuck you guys do just to get through a map 10 seconds faster.

I honestly believe dashing should cost a very small amount of PP (3-5 PP depending on which type) to prevent spammimg.

[Alukard]

Dashing is pretty simple, you don't even need macros.

[BIG OLAF]

There's a lot of arguments about "dumb people defending dumb things", but you should realise those people aren't dumb, nor are they defending dumb things, they just have a different outlook on the game than you.

I'll remember this next time you or one of your ilk imply that buying clothing and whatnot is stupid.

[ShinMaruku]

Just to clarify, I don't hate players doing this things nor do despise them for it. It's just really baffles me as what the game has turned into "Samurai Vergil Dash Solid: The Game".



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nII_DbTi9pE
I could not help myself. XD

[Natsu Nem]

Can't wait for the Helmbreakers into Raw Assss.

[ShinMaruku]

Forces are Dormammu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BM1Ra4feV0

[btw-Niji]

Dash exploits are retarded. Just make run speed faster, Sega. I don't want to rely on macros or cramp my fingers constantly swapping weapons and doing LAs or whatever the fuck you guys do just to get through a map 10 seconds faster.

I honestly believe dashing should cost a very small amount of PP (3-5 PP depending on which type) to prevent spammimg.
It won't cramp your fingers and nobody uses macros. So many people on this forum say these 2 things quite often, but they are not in any way true. I have been dashing with WS and LA cancels since 10+ months ago and I have never actually gotten any pain in my hands. I also have not broken any controllers, either. (this is another thing PSOW members have said often.)

You only suggest that last line because you're tired of falling behind, yet you won't put forth an effort to learn how to do it. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the EN community are like this... and it's pretty tiring to see.

[gigawuts]

I'm fine with dash exploits, I just wish Sega would notice what its community is doing and legitimize its biggest wants.

If something has become as standard and ordinary as dash exploits, they should turn that speed into a feature for at least one class.

All they'd have to do is take the Step Advance skill and give it a secondary bonus for the first SP: "After executing a dash, keep holding the button to start running." Boom. Solved for like 90% of class combinations. Dive Roll Advance optional, I don't care what they do to Mirage Escape.

[Chdata]

Quad dashing will only cause you as much "finger cramping" as it takes to type all the posts it takes to whine about it.

'skill: dash x times in a row without cooldown'

everyone becomes Megaman X/Zero

At the same time, PSO2 is kind of a bit too "stiff" that being 'normal'. E.g., in comparison to games where you can actually move your legs while you melee.

[Xaeris]

I really like that idea. It doesn't even need to drain PP honestly. There's no good reason that the actual act of movement in a game should be anything more than trivial. Unless it's QWOP.

[HIT0SHI]

[SPOILER-BOX]UMVC3: Vergil Sword Loop Tutorial - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nII_DbTi9pE)[/SPOILER-BOX]
I could not help myself. XD

Yep pretty much. :lol:

[gigawuts]

Quad dashing will only cause you as much "finger cramping" as it takes to type all the posts it takes to whine about it.

'skill: dash x times in a row without cooldown'

everyone becomes Megaman X/Zero

At the same time, PSO2 is kind of a bit too "stiff" that being 'normal'. E.g., in comparison to games where you can actually move your legs while you melee.

The only thing I dislike about this is the free iframes you get while also going faster, which is why instead of tying some kind of arbitrary and invisible reduction in iframes while spamming dash I'd rather just see faster running after a dash. No new buttons required, less work than multistepping, won't completely ruin your hardware.

[Chdata]

I am heavily in favour of having more non-randomized quests. It would give the quests an identity. In other words, it would create the feeling of having more content available. Being able to memorize spawns would give people incentive to use different, better fitting and thus better optimized PA's. Players would know in which situation they are going to be instead of using a universal PA that fits in every situation ( i.e shunka, ilmegid etc), but isn't optimal at all. The disadvantage would be that it would make PSE Bursts practically impossible. So I'm actually for a mix of both, randomized and non-randomized quests. Not because I like PSE bursts, I really don't. But there are people that enjoy them.

Speaking of this, now I've thought a little of what I want to see.

The problem I have with TAs or just 'memorizing an area' is that it's less reliant on skill (yes it still takes skill) and much more reliant on both memorization and having very expensive gear to kill things faster.

Rather than more of that, I'd rather see more stuff that takes adaptive skill and being careful and isn't just memorizing a lot of stuff.

(Game as it is now but with limited revives kinda fits that .-.)

Like, if soloing/duoing Luther deathlessly were worth it,

[BlankM]

Speaking of this, now I've thought a little of what I want to see.

The problem I have with TAs or just 'memorizing an area' is that it's less reliant on skill (yes it still takes skill) and much more reliant on both memorization and having very expensive gear to kill things faster.

Rather than more of that, I'd rather see more stuff that takes adaptive skill and being careful and isn't just memorizing a lot of stuff.

(Game as it is now but with limited revives kinda fits that .-.)

Like, if soloing/duoing Luther deathlessly were worth it,

This is a fair criticism of the game, but I feel like people underestimate the skill involved in "memorizing" and planning and executing something as well as speedrunners do it. Do you ever watch speedruns? I don't see how TA's in their current form take less skill than people who just go around spamming the same PA/Techs on random mobs that melt effortlessly anyways.

Thats the thing I don't understand between EN and JP community. JP community just wants to learn everything about the game until its wrecked into the ground. EN community is like "Well I'm not dead 24/7 so its whatever."

So they complain about how the game isn't challenging, yet Ship 2 pugs often fail to keep all towers alive for 2+ runs in Tower Defense, take 20-30 minutes to kill luther, don't even get 100% on dorios.

Yes it's fair to criticize the game but first make sure the game you're actually playing is consistent with the one you play in your head. Because often times it tends to be very different.

[Alukard]

Speaking of this, now I've thought a little of what I want to see.

The problem I have with TAs or just 'memorizing an area' is that it's less reliant on skill (yes it still takes skill) and much more reliant on both memorization and having very expensive gear to kill things faster.

Rather than more of that, I'd rather see more stuff that takes adaptive skill and being careful and isn't just memorizing a lot of stuff.

(Game as it is now but with limited revives kinda fits that .-.)

Like, if soloing/duoing Luther deathlessly were worth it,

I'm not sure whether you follow a lot of other TA games or not, but I'll help you out with a couple thoughts.

Reacting to rng is a skill indeed. If you have quests that are rng based, it's all about your reaction times and ideas. So you need to think quickly and perform fast, right? Nope. There is a pattern in all rng quests and while you can't say 100% for sure if something is going to happen, you can more or less guess it at a pretty high probability. As an example, we all know that running in an corner in quests triggers a spawn, we know it's rough spawning position etc.
Quick thinking and making fast decisions? Not really, because as I said, due to the fact that the possibilities are pretty limited and because we can make pretty good guesses of what's going to happen next, we fabricate our own patterns to react to those. As an example, the shunka spammers. Because shunka works everywhere. Most of the time not very effective, though. Of course you can fabricate more optimized patterns than that.

Alright, now onto the main point. How are you going to measure that skill? Time is not a factor of measurement anymore, so there is no objective criteria. In the end, you'll never be able to tell which team performed better or not, because it's solely subjective.

Let me explain why set spawns are actually better than random spawns. Like every popular TA game (sm64, zelda etc) the driving factor is consistency and planning. How good is your planning, how consistent is your execution. Rng spawns are to the contrary of that. You can't be consistent in rng spawns, because all you do is guess. Your planning is also just a pattern you created, it's in no way something you can do every time you play the quest.

Time is an objective criteria to measure consistency and planning, because it will ultimately result in a better time. You can be less consistent, but if you were smarter and have better planning you can still get a better time than your competitor.

Edit: About memorizing, this game has hardly any quests with set spawns. The ta quests have very little spawns, I don't think memorizing is a problem in pso2. I haven't met a single person, who had problems memorizing spawns in bb and the TA'ers in bb know about...there are 9x Maximum attacks with an average of 450 enemies, row with 820 + other popular quests (TTF, MSB, RT, PW4 etc) and they know all the spawns. So yeah, brains are easily capable of memorizing things like this.

[Chdata]

This is a fair criticism of the game, but I feel like people underestimate the skill involved in "memorizing" and planning and executing something as well as speedrunners do it. Do you ever watch speedruns? I don't see how TA's in their current form take less skill than people who just go around spamming the same PA/Techs on random mobs that melt effortlessly anyways.

Thats the thing I don't understand between EN and JP community. JP community just wants to learn everything about the game until its wrecked into the ground. EN community is like "Well I'm not dead 24/7 so its whatever."

So they complain about how the game isn't challenging, yet Ship 2 pugs often fail to keep all towers alive for 2+ runs in Tower Defense, take 20-30 minutes to kill luther, don't even get 100% on dorios.

Yes it's fair to criticize the game but first make sure the game you're actually playing is consistent with the one you play in your head. Because often times it tends to be very different.

There is no skill in spamming PA/techs on random mobs. There is no skill in fighting bosses that die instantly either.

Because all of the content is too easy/doesn't punish you enough (I just did a 15 minute luther with EN... 7 people ran out of moons...)

Y'know, maybe if we didn't have 60 revives, EN would at least learn how to dodge attack patterns.

I do watch speedruns, but I'm talking about adding a skill-invoking element to the game it doesn't have/advocate. I know it's a lot of work to memorize/strategize tricks for TAs, but I'm not too serious about it and only pick up on small time saving things like good spots to KC or using grants to hit offscreen switches etc to facilitate the daily 600k runs.

I don't think the game is challenging cause I'm not as bad as regular ship 2 pugs. I had a random EN join my 2nd luther party and he'd keep dying instantly after he was revived...

I'm looking more for things that are actually hard to survive. You were actually able to beat that solo? Holy shit!

In the case of this game, it's more like, "You solo'd that? GG wasting 30 minutes of your life and $5 spent on an impractical braver build".

And I'm not just ranting about bad rewards here, the game is just too forgiving. Changing solo to duo in the previous sentence is like, "Cool, but you had 10 revives... not very special (unless you prove they weren't used).

I'm not really sure if this game's mob AI is difficult enough to facilitate making mobbing hard to survive though. Maybe if the zondeel on custom guardinanes popped when in contact with any lightning tech (including zondeel). Or if they just threw more guwanda at us (which would just be annoying).

[BlankM]

There is no skill in spamming PA/techs on random mobs. There is no skill in fighting bosses that die instantly either.

Because all of the content is too easy/doesn't punish you enough (I just did a 15 minute luther with EN... 7 people ran out of moons...)

Y'know, maybe if we didn't have 60 revives, EN would at least learn how to dodge attack patterns.

I do watch speedruns, but I'm talking about adding a skill-invoking element to the game it doesn't have/advocate. I know it's a lot of work to memorize/strategize tricks for TAs, but I'm not too serious about it and only pick up on small time saving things like good spots to KC or using grants to hit offscreen switches etc to facilitate the daily 600k runs.

I don't think the game is challenging cause I'm not as bad as regular ship 2 pugs. I had a random EN join my 2nd luther party and he'd keep dying instantly after he was revived...

I'm looking more for things that are actually hard to survive. You were actually able to beat that solo? Holy shit!

In the case of this game, it's more like, "You solo'd that? GG wasting 30 minutes of your life and $5 spent on an impractical braver build".

And I'm not just ranting about bad rewards here, the game is just too forgiving. Changing solo to duo in the previous sentence is like, "Cool, but you had 10 revives... not very special (unless you prove they weren't used).

I'm not really sure if this game's mob AI is difficult enough to facilitate making mobbing hard to survive though. Maybe if the zondeel on custom guardinanes popped when in contact with any lightning tech (including zondeel). Or if they just threw more guwanda at us (which would just be annoying).

I'm just saying if you come to PSO2 looking for an edge-of-the-seat-of-your-pants, death-at-every-turn, dark-souls-with-mods kinda shit then you're just looking in the wrong place. Nothing designed in the game so far has facilitated that kind of gameplay, and it'd be better to focus on what the game actually does have then what it doesn't. Instead people just ignore a large portion of the game, and make excuses about how "That person is not really any more skilled than me its just blah blah blah blah." When you say things like "less reliant on skill" you really mean "Doesn't reward a specific criteria that I want it to." Regardless of whether you do TAs as a main income or not, all that meseta generated does come from somewhere(And its most likely not all generated from random loot drops). So it's kind of silly to me that people would decide it doesn't make up a good majority of the play.

Maybe some people might just want to admit the game doesn't offer what interests them. Hence why so many players just sit and idle in lobby on ship 2? Instead of looking for depth elsewhere, everyone is just like "Meh, I get my free rarez and stuff at the end of the day." Besides that the rest of the series is honestly no different. Melting enemies before they touch you, clearing rooms of set spawns...

TA is criminally overlooked when it comes to all these balance and game design discussions basically. Because people are busy looking for depth that's not there.

[Lego]

RIP TD2

[btw-Niji]

RIP TD2
RIP a lot of things, actually.

[Chdata]

Eh, I don't look at TA as if it's the only thing in the game to do. And yes, it's the only thing that really generates meseta, but you only spend like 30 mins per char doing that a day, compared to hours of AQ which is the only other profitable thing (aside from EQs). Unless you TA for fun, probably the most of what you do is PSE BURST, which is why I tend to not specialize anything for bossing.

I mean, bossing is fun if you add stipulations to it to purposefully make it harder, like no ground Gu or no ground Fi. Or 'no OP pas' e.g., 'not using PAs that are significantly more powerful than other ones'.

In the end I mostly just like the game for dress up, neat photon art/tech animations, and learning new tricks with those PAs or just how to play them. (Still new to Ra / Fi, I can almost do that one-hit-everything-in-nabII-thing-that-doesn't-apply-to-anywhere-else-in-the-game).

[HIT0SHI]

Guess doing said EQs 2 times only is way to much of a burden now.

[Chdata]

people just need to combat finish more

[infiniteeverlasting]

people just need to combat finish more

why would they not??? before the level cap raise, i didnt even have combat escape... 20 seconds of i frames doesnt seem worth it. it's way more useful during TAs especially during nab 2 against annoying mobs.

[Chdata]

I dunno why more people don't make use of the 50k to everything nearby AoE in pugs.

Or the 13-14k AoE without even attacking or maybe one kanran.

Anyway, it doesn't necessarily have to be harder game modes. Just less of stuff like combat escape that are free tickets to not trying.

Combo stance: At level 1, first Ja gets a 1% bonus. Every subsequent JA adds 1% up to a max 1.10x multiplier.

At level 10, you start at 10% and add 10% each time up to a max 2.00x multiplier.

Melee only

[GoldenFalcon]

Combo stance: At level 1, first Ja gets a 1% bonus. Every subsequent JA adds 1% up to a max 1.10x multiplier.

At level 10, you start at 10% and add 10% each time up to a max 2.00x multiplier.

Melee only

So a Fury Combo that works like it's supposed to

[Chdata]

yep

I'm also still in favor of one that increases dmg based on how low your HP is

[GoldenFalcon]

yep

I'm also still in favor of one that increases dmg based on how low your HP is

'one' what?

There's halfline and deadline slayer already

[Gaylar]

'one' what?

There's halfline and deadline slayer already

True, but those are poorly executed; the static increases are worthless when you could just stack a ton of % damage.

Of course, Sega doesn't seem acknowledge these issues (or if they have then they show no intent of making these "different" builds viable/effective)


I feel bad to see the "risk-reward" side of Fighter's tree and the Guard Stance tank Hunter side of the tree go to complete waste; especially when all it would really take to fix them is a minor tree rebalancing, such as reducing the overall SP investment of some skills and adding one or two new ones, and possibly some new mechanics (Like a skill that rewards your for sponging damage on a tank-built Hunter, or one that lets you take striking based damage for your party members, or Deadline/Halfine Slayer causing an attack speed boost as well as damage).

That doesn't even begin to scratch the surface though, since other classes have problems of their own too. Ranger's traps come to mind.


Sorry for the ramble.

[Sp-24]

Imagine what would this thread (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219429) look like if Sega changed the Slayer skills to huge percentage bonuses. Wars between Braver/Fighters complaining about being healed from their 20% HP and Forces furious about the former dying all over the place along with an occasional Guard Stance player mourning the official death of tanks would be glorious.

That's the only good thing that I see about making Slayer skills anything other than dead weight, by the way, because making them powerful is a terrible idea, when a lot of bosses, and even some regular enemies, can already easily kill anyone who didn't invest every thing they have into HP, defenses and resistances.

[Chdata]

'one' what?

There's halfline and deadline slayer already

More like, something that's so good people can't pass it up if they're maxing like usual.

Zerker Stance: %damage increase based on the % of health you've lost so far.

1.5x your % health lost. So at 40% hp, your bonus is 0.6 x 1.5 = 90% or 1.9x.

At one HP, it'd be 2.35x. At full HP you have no bonus. 99% HP 0.01 x 1.5 = 1.5%.

To get the effect of brave stance you'd need at least 30% HP lost. For wise stance, 46% hp lost. At only 22% health lost, you have average stance.

Of course yes, a lot of people would suck at that. In my case, when I'm paying attention I rarely if ever get hit and have given up the idea of investing much into defense at all. It'd be neat if this stance were able to synergize with a defensive HU build by being strong enough that you actually aren't missing out on too much damage by combining the two and are comparable to HuFi or HuBr.

You could sit at 1000/2000 HP with tank skills on HU and still get 1.75 damage boost from zerker stance for example. Fury stance being 1.99-2.18 (if you get the advance past fury critical). But then you lack an additional stance...

As for being healed, maybe an additional skill like...

Stamina Store - Partially negate the effects of healing to apply slower over time. Healing becomes a 'status effect'.

Or some time of skill for active armor that becomes replacement HP, but that's adding a whole new / different mechanic to the game.

I mentioned melee only cause I just don't think ranged classes have good enough dodging stuff aside from Gunner. (So far the only class I die much as because launcher/rifle literally freeze you in place with no way to cancel out of frogfrogfrog...)

I think my only problem with that is that people might be able to abuse equipping and dequipping armor with stamina for that, unlike katana gear where you actually have to be attacked.

[GoldenFalcon]

Or just have iron will and Never Give Up™

[GHNeko]

A tank based stance that would be interesting would be one reminiscent of Damage Dispersion from BD, but opposite.

All damage done to allies within a certain range of your character will be split between them:you @ up to 7:3 ratio respectively, starting at 97% ; 3% for 10 levels.

[Rien]

Base the defence tree of Hunter around Just Guard instead. Perhaps make the final skill of the tree make Just Guard reflect damage instead of nullifying it.

[Macman]

Just Guard DOES reflect damage. It's just too small to matter.

[Gardios]

They'd need to change too much to make tanking viable so I don't expect it to ever happen. Guard Stance isn't even made for tanking and the existence of Just Guard and Step with no cost attached to them make tanking unnecessary anyway.

[Kondibon]

They'd need to change too much to make tanking viable so I don't expect it to ever happen. Guard Stance isn't even made for tanking and the existence of Just Guard and Step with no cost attached to them make tanking unnecessary anyway.Actually they don't need to change much that people aren't already saying they should change anyway. I think people seriously underestimate how much hyper armor Hunters get from PAs. THAT'S how you're suppost to tank. When you look at skills like Iron Will, Never Give Up, automate, etc, it's really obvious.

The problem isn't that tanking doesn't work, it's that Hunter's damage is so point heavy and reliant on fury stance. The solution would then be to decrease the overal point cost of the fury side of the tree and make some of the skills not require fury stance to be active.

On both sides the bonus for guard stance needs to be for r and t damage as well, and fury stance needs to have a more conciquential weakness as well as increase the damage taken from r and t damage. But that's not directly related.

EDIT: To clarify I'm saying that the point of tanking isn't to protect your party members, but to deal damage when "normally" you'd want to dodge, the problem is that you have to give up too much damage to make it worth it. So all they have to do is make Hunter's damage less point intensive.

[gigawuts]

Yup. The key to the every-man tanking isn't improving tanking, it's reducing SP costs and bonuses of Fury Stance, and buffing base damage.

If Fury Stance + JA Bonus + JA Combo Up + etc. cost a mere 35-45 SP, and offered just ~55% damage in total (21% from JAB, so it'd work without Fury Stance) players could grab 1-2 tanking skills without issue.

Prerequisite skills for Iron Will and Automate Halfline would need to be reduced from 5 SP too, and Automate Halfline expanded a little bit with a new skill, like Never Give Up is for Iron Will. Maybe a new skill added to allow hunters to generate mates (maybe 1 of each every 2 minutes? 5% chance to not consume a mate when Automate Halfline kicks in? I dunno).

They're much too focused on making Hunter try to be two classes at once; far more than they are on any other class. Even Braver with its two different atk weapon types feels less divided than Hunter's roles do. Honestly, I'd rather see the entire Fury tree abolished and Hunter turned into a class with only defensive bonuses if it meant melee weapons were boosted to make up for it. At least then it'd feel like more choices existed, going fi/br or fi/hu or even fi/te would be a more interesting decision to make.

Specialist tanking is another story, and I don't really feel it has much of a place in the current game since the tools just don't exist to back things up. If and when we get expansions on War Cry I'd be all for it. Those skills that debuff enemies tagged by War Cry need to hurry up and get into the game.

edit: Then again, I'd rather see debuffs and stuff like that on TE than anything else. I can just imagine a skill requiring TE main, "Enemies aggressing you take 10% more damage" resulting in a TE/HU War Cry build being as mandatory for some speedruns as Weak Bullet. Runs of things like Luther, etc.

[Gardios]

@Kondi: Those skills don't complement Guard Stance all that much. When I die with GS active it's usually caused by shooting or technique damage, and that's exactly what GS doesn't cover in the first place. I mean, the skill placement suggests that it's supposed to be used in conjunction with Guard Stance, but it feels much more useful for glass cannon characters than tanky ones.

[Rien]

Just Guard DOES reflect damage. It's just too small to matter.

It does and it doesn't.

It generates a hit based on your attack value. This is the same as Katana's Counter.

I mean an actual reflect hit based on your opponent's attack value.

[GoldenFalcon]

It does and it doesn't.

It generates a hit based on your attack value. This is the same as Katana's Counter.

I mean an actual reflect hit based on your opponent's attack value.

How would it scale though?

Enemies hit for hundreds, and we hit for hundreds of thousands

[Sp-24]

How would it scale though?

Enemies hit for hundreds, and we hit for hundreds of thousands
Your AC balance becomes your reflected damage modifier.

[gigawuts]

Your AC balance becomes your reflected damage modifier.

New Vjaya special confirmed?

This is just insidious enough to be something that at least one game company actually eventually implements.

[GoldenFalcon]

Well, Dark Souls 2 has a weapon that does more damage the more currency you have on you

But of course, dying means you could lose billions

[Galax]

Next thing you know, SEGA adds a 5SP skill on all Skill Trees.

Moneytime: Active Skill.

When active, PAs eat Meseta equal to 30x their PP cost for triple damage output. Buffing it to the next level reduces the meseta cost.

[Arksenth]

Next thing you know, SEGA adds a 5SP skill on all Skill Trees.

Moneytime: Active Skill.

When active, PAs eat Meseta equal to 30x their PP cost for triple damage output. Buffing it to the next level reduces the meseta cost.

YES.

I WANT THIS.

[infiniteeverlasting]

Just Guard DOES reflect damage. It's just too small to matter.

the big question is why does hunter need to add sp to get a just guard skill when fighters and bravers have them embedded into their weapons... its kinda stupid.

[DoubleZero]

the big question is why does hunter need to add sp to get a just guard skill when fighters and bravers have them embedded into their weapons... its kinda stupid.

This. So much this.

Braver and Fighter have mitigating guards built into it without SP investment because they were made after Hunter was introduced and they saw no need to put separate skills for guarding. Yet, they still make HU waste SP on Just Guard (after wasting 3 more in a crappy static S-DEF skill) after all this time. Sega, what's up with that?

On that note, we need either static bonuses OR percent buffs; a mixture of both just makes the static bonuses suck in comparison as the game focuses more on high-level content where percents make for larger bonuses. It doesn't help that tons of skills have SP sinks that add one goddamn measly percent per point, or in the event of static bonuses, you don't see significant gain until you've sunk 5 points into it already. I'd love for SEGA to revisit the HU RA and FO trees with the BR tree's efficiency in mind.

...I'd also like to see FO and TE's trees to be designed around Ranged Tech vs. Melee Tech rather than Fire/Ice/Elec vs. Wind/Light/Dark, but that's for another thread.

[Chaoszshadow]

Yeah fighters have free just guard, on daggers that is. Knuckles and double saber dont even have a fucking guard. Atleast all of hunters weapons can guard, its even worse for fighter considering how its weapons are more close range than any other class

[GHNeko]

Next thing you know, SEGA adds a 5SP skill on all Skill Trees.

Moneytime: Active Skill.

When active, PAs eat Meseta equal to 30x their PP cost for triple damage output. Buffing it to the next level reduces the meseta cost.

So you're telling me to bring back charge as a skill?

God no thanks.

im still suffering from Charge Mechguns+10 50 hit ptsd.

[Galax]

So you're telling me to bring back charge as a skill?

God no thanks.

im still suffering from Charge Mechguns+10 50 hit ptsd.

Just wait until they release an upgraded Vjaya that uses your AC to attack!

[Sanguine2009]

i would rather them bring back berserk type weapons

[Macman]

i would rather them bring back berserk type weapons
Please no. Shunka spammers are suicidal enough already. I don't need them killing themselves even further.

[Sanguine2009]

why not at least let them do some damage before they suicide? its not like bad players could contribute less

[btw-Niji]

They're already doing damage with Shunka, though.

You really need to stop hating on that PA. Your Illmegid garbage isn't any better, by the way.

[Arksenth]

They're already doing damage with Shunka, though.

You really need to stop hating on that PA. Your Illmegid garbage isn't any better, by the way.

Irumegido*

[btw-Niji]

oh yeah...

i guess i should apologize to the great inazuma...

[Zerex]

Ranger nerf when?

600k SatCan is 2 strong 5 me

[Dnd]

Knuckles dont even have a fucking guard.

So you mean the knuckle shift action doesnt count? because, when used right, like a guard it avoids all damage thrown at you aswell.

[Z-0]

Ranger nerf when?

600k SatCan is 2 strong 5 me
I'm not so sure SatCan is really in the same league. I mean, yes, level 3 SatCan charge is extremely OP when it actually hits what you want, but it's not braindead easy to use.