What does it take to make PSO2 PVP able?

[MimiChan]

First of all before you throw around and say it's a very bad idea, which I would agree with you at this point, the purpose of this thread is to put some inputs on how to make PVP less suck. So no post about how it would be a terrible idea, we get it Mr. Obvious.

I would like to start that I think Sega inherently designed the game to be only PvE, it means they can go wild on making skills being OP and what not (monster won't whine in the forums anyway) but as far as content go, people would get bored of just running the same map, trying to get the best time, I mean it gets boring eventually.

PVP is a content that don't require as much update, aside from the occasional buff/nerf and prolongs the game a bit.

But how do you make it possible on PSO2?

Problem:
Let's start with HP, when 1k HP is considered high and you can deal, on record, 6m damage, the player HP to damage ratio is just too high and if we are to enable PVP with the current stats, everyone will just one shot each other.
Possible Solution: Scale the damage down and putting some kind of damage cap.

Second is skill spammability, with PP the only thing that stopping you from spamming skills in fast succession, you can just lock enemy by using grabbing PA over and over again.
Possible Solution: Putting cooldown on skills.

Flinching every hit also can lock you with repeated normal attacks.
Possible Solution: Super Armor on some skills, and a counter move (pvp only)

The disparity between melee and range.
Possible Solution: Give everyone something like ZRA, less damage the farther you are.

The unfairness of auto lock on skills (rafoie for instance)
Possible Solution: No auto lock? Only first person mode?

Healing (via Resta or Potential)
Possible Solution: XQ like healing limitation.

What you think?

[Mega Ultra Chicken]

PvP didn't work out so well in PSO1, so I dunno if it will work here.

A dungeon-clearing race, on the other hand, could be (kind of) PvP that actually works.

[Shadowth117]

PvP didn't work out so well in PSO1, so I dunno if it will work here.

A dungeon-clearing race, on the other hand, could be (kind of) PvP that actually works.

PVP would have to be objective based IMO if it were a thing.

As for a dungeon-clearing race, there are these missions called time attack runs... they're just not very popular and are really never played up to their full potential by SEGA in this.

[Chik'Tikka]

I think it is planned, the blue and red rooms are still there, and the Sphere Arena with it's detailed seating seems promising for some sort of Colosseum style combat+^_^+ only major thing would be balancing and lag issues+^_^+ like "should they allow Player equipment?" which would mean the top .1% would rule PVP and everyone else would avoid it like a plague and etc.+^_^+

I think they are working on something on the side, but i think they want to make sure it's right when it's released (unlike PSO1's tacked on feature). Look at any true PVP games out there and you realize it takes some 2-3 years dev time to have something with quality, which for SEGAC is at least 5 years+^_^+

[Shadowth117]

I think it is planned, the blue and red rooms are still there, and the Sphere Arena with it's detailed seating seems promising for some sort of Colosseum style combat+^_^+ only major thing would be balancing and lag issues+^_^+ like "should they allow Player equipment?" which would mean the top .1% would rule PVP and everyone else would avoid it like a plague and etc.+^_^+

I think they are working on something on the side, but i think they want to make sure it's right when it's released (unlike PSO1's tacked on feature). Look at any true PVP games out there and you realize it takes some 2-3 years dev time to have something with quality, which for SEGAC is at least 5 years+^_^+

It is kinda likely. They said it would likely be added for the Korean version for sure a while back. And it would partly explain the recent striving for balance that they've mentioned.

[Gardios]

They would need to change too much in order for PvP to not be a clusterfuck.

[Mega Ultra Chicken]

PVP would have to be objective based IMO if it were a thing.

As for a dungeon-clearing race, there are these missions called time attack runs... they're just not very popular and are really never played up to their full potential by SEGA in this.

I mean two parties racing at the same time. And maybe they could spend points to spring traps on the other side and stuff like that.

[Edson Drake]

Fixed values. Fixed HP, fixed damage. Generic weapons and armours.

Without those, there's too many variables to make it viable. I come from solid Diablo 2 gameplay for over 5 years and PvPing and can safely say that it was a disaster there.

Since you were allowed to equip anything, there was a global damage reduction to 10% of original damage to players and even then, you could still 1-hit everything. Not to mention unfair builds, cheesy builds, and community-forced fairplay where players would only duel with lv18 max characters(known as low-level dueling) so that it would be more fun to play.

Since PSO and PSO2 have so much in common with DII, I don't think allowing such vast customised equipment in PvP would be fair. Think of a paintball-style of PvP, where everyone has to use the same weapons(generic models) and same armour/vest(HP).

And, taking all that into consideration, I still think PA's and techs would need to have their damage values adjusted. A huge mess to maintain alongside all the content they're working on.

In short, PvP would be nice to have if we could, but it's too much work for Sega to make it right.

[MimiChan]

It would really help if you can say why PSO1 PVP sucks, or what needed to be changed. Just saying PVP sucks because it does isn't really contributing to the discussion =.=

About the equipment, they could, in theory, normalize everything even levels so when a level 1 goes into the arena fighting a level 54, both of them will be bumped to level 70 stat wise. To be fair to those who are already max level, they get to keep their skills/masteries intact.

[Rien]

Until dealing and receiving hits become completely server sided, it is impossible for pvp to work.

Just lagging would put you on the same level as hacks: You can deal hits, wait and poof, your damage just comes out of nowhere all at once and kills the poor guy.

[MimiChan]

They could just make a whole pvp only ship that everyone on any ship can enter and only in those ship all hits are server sided? I mean if Sega is kind enough to give pvp it's own dedicated server that is.

[x1on3x]

tbh i found PSO1 pvp pretty funny, right when you leave the portal into the Forest area theres some Force spamming ice skills right on the portal and your character gets frozen and then dies :P

[XrosBlader821]

Yeah while FO is charging a technique meanwhile Br swoops in with shunka oneshotting Fo and Gu simply takes off by style dodging into oblivion. Ra lands one weak bullet oneshotting everything. Nah this game is too outbalanced for PVP. It would take fixed values like Edson Drake said and perhaps these Mechs from TD3 to really bring balanced PVP.

[Yden]

Obviously the great equalizer will be giant robots for everyone.

[strikerhunter]

Only go to make some points to the OP.

PvP is possible, but knowing Sega it will be problematic.
[SPOILER-BOX]



PVP is a content that don't require as much update, aside from the occasional buff/nerf and prolongs the game a bit.

It takes more than you think, you'll also have to plan what you will do with it in the future. This also involves with fixing bugs, glitches that may occur, class updates, and balancing along with patching triple/quad dashing dashing because players will be using that for gap closure.

Then there comes the weapons that drops FPS........

So there has to be a lot things that must be fixed first before PvP can even come in clean.



But how do you make it possible on PSO2?

Problem:
Let's start with HP, when 1k HP is considered high and you can deal, on record, 6m damage, the player HP to damage ratio is just too high and if we are to enable PVP with the current stats, everyone will just one shot each other.
Possible Solution: Scale the damage down and putting some kind of damage cap.

How is this instead: Turn damage dealt by player into percent %. Basically your damage is percentage based on the enemy's HP with the Percent calculating from your weapons and gears and outcome damage based on target's HP. Resistances and buffs will also be added to the already complicated math :P



Second is skill spammability, with PP the only thing that stopping you from spamming skills in fast succession, you can just lock enemy by using grabbing PA over and over again.
Possible Solution: Putting cooldown on skills.
-Cooldowns on PAs are not possible (most likely because of coding).
-Default PP to 100 in PvP.
-Slow down the PP recovery rate. To create more competitive play, add special objects or something on the field that gives players/teams a PP recovery boost.
-With what was already said above about damage, PAs themselves won't really need much change with the exception of a few PAs like MT's invisibility frames, etc.



Flinching every hit also can lock you with repeated normal attacks.
Possible Solution: Super Armor on some skills, and a counter move (pvp only)

-Having Super Armor on some skills/PAs will only promote spamming those skills.
-Just add a flinch immunity after the initial flinch.
-Also, just because juggling is a thing, give immunity to being hit again once you get in the air while being spun out.



The unfairness of auto lock on skills (rafoie for instance)
Possible Solution: No auto lock? Only first person mode?

Then this will make it unfair for all Ranged classes, especially Gunner and the fast pace Fighter.
-No lock-on but leave the reticule is all that can be really done.


Healing (via Resta or Potential)
Possible Solution: XQ like healing limitation.
-Now this is a Fo and Te issue only, they will need it since they will have the lowest HP. Applying what I said on damage above, they will not get 1 shot but will go down easily once someone begins to pound on them. This will also create a more competitive and cooperative environment with the following as written below.
For healing purpose:
-Hu and Fi can have something like Automated Deadline but with a 20sec CD and having a max PP reduction cost instead of a monomate cost.
-Ra will be the only class able to use Monmate (5 only) With this being said, all classes except RA will be restricted from using any healing items except from healing structures.
-Gu will have no recovery power due to having the most invincibility frames of all the classes besides Br with CE.
-Br's only recovery means is to do JA Recovery.
-Fo and Te are the only ones that can heal, meaning other classes will need their support.

With damage being based on % as I said above in the post, healing will be based on % as well but for PvP purpose the values of each healing will alternate so that resta cannot heal a player to 100% or 5 monomate for 100% heal, etc. while others like JA recovery on Br will get a higher boost because of the gated restriction to able to heal.
[/SPOILER-BOX]



They could just make a whole pvp only ship that everyone on any ship can enter and only in those ship all hits are server sided? I mean if Sega is kind enough to give pvp it's own dedicated server that is.

And if PvP does get popular.........that ship will likely be full thus not allowing others to enter and create lag due to it being full with all the actions going on.

Edit: In the end, for PvP to be implanted into PSO2 there must be a whole lot of shit that needs to fixed and/or changed.

[MimiChan]

I don't know why would cooldown not be possible with anything, they could just add a special clause enabling it on pvp only ship. Making a separate ship/server will let Sega do some absurd adjustment without affecting the regular ship.

Dodging/Guarding/Countering can be countered by putting PP cost on them making the whole pvp dependent on how well you can manage your PP pool. Do you use PA/Tech? Do you dodge? Is doing normal attack to regain PP worth the risk?

Cooldown and Limited PP lets you make this crucial decision and just prevents everyone from just spamming.

[strikerhunter]

I don't know why would cooldown not be possible with anything, they could just add a special clause enabling it on pvp only ship.

It means that they have to rework and recode the PA system. If PAs where like class skills then it would be understandable and easily done but they're not. I understand that you want variety (I would love that) but the PA system has an entirely different code from class skills that have CDs.


Dodging/Guarding/Countering can be countered by putting PP cost on them making the whole pvp dependent on how well you can manage your PP pool. Do you use PA/Tech? Do you dodge? Is doing normal attack to regain PP worth the risk?

That would depend on the PP cost. Something like 30 PP is outrageous but something like 20 seems highly reasonable.
-I was only adding the lowering PP recovery part and objects increasing PP recovery just to increase competitive means.



Cooldown and Limited PP lets you make this crucial decision and just prevents everyone from just spamming.
-Yes and yes, I agree onto here but as already said above about cooldown. It would involve with recoding the PAs' coding.

[LordKaiser]

I think that SEGA was testing the waters with this when they added the Emergency Code Clone.

[Shadowth117]

I think that SEGA was testing the waters with this when they added the Emergency Code Clone.

You wouldn't just be thinking that then. They actually did say it was related to testing for a PVP mechanic.

[MimiChan]

Maybe the close we can get into having a PVP is having a Colosseum tournament type that you can only enter your character partner as a player and they will duke it out clone vs clone style and you just watch on the sidelines. Should be fun haha.

[Zorua]

Elysion users would have a blast in PvP.

[GoldenFalcon]

Mabinogi had an option where players deal 1% damage in the duel

Sometimes, even 1% is too much damage lol

[Rien]

You wouldn't just be thinking that then. They actually did say it was related to testing for a PVP mechanic.

Probably not true, but I heard rumors that said pvp mechanic was how grapples worked.

[Chdata]

Spiral Knights: Lockdown

[Karazykid]

You'd have to have generic classes. All hunters wear the exact same armor, use the same sword and have the same PA. There would have to be careful planning and consideration given to which PAs are used. Obviously can't give them anything that stunlocks or things like that.

[landman]

Put Border Break in my PSO2, we have new mechs to do it :)

[Miyuki_Kamiko]

first of all invincibility frames would need to be taking out then they would need pvp specific gear
that only works in pvp then they would have to either balance the skills out or make all new pas specifically for pvp only

in short they would have to rebuild there entire combat system for pvp for it to actually be fair